From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Aug 31 08:50:10 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA32207; Fri, 31 Aug 2001 08:49:17 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2001 08:49:17 -0700 Message-ID: <3B8FB28D.91052D20@bellsouth.net> Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2001 11:51:41 -0400 From: Terry Blanton Organization: . X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: US Ground Troups Going to Jordan Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: <"5rlCk3.0.5t7.z7xZx"@mx1> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/1504 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: U.S. Iraq attack to involve ground troops White House plans multi-pronged offensive against Hussein © 2001 WorldNetDaily.com An imminent U.S. attack against Iraq will not be limited to air strikes and missile barrages but involve ground forces, according to sources quoted by the DEBKA-Net-Weekly intelligence service. U.S. Marines who trained in desert warfare last month were flown to the region this week, according to the report. The Marines were trained in air landings of men, armor and artillery and in combined ground and air operations. They were told in no uncertain terms they could be called upon to move against Iraqi army forces in eastern Jordan and western Iraq. Signs in Riyadh, Kuwait, Jerusalem and Cairo point to an imminent U.S. operation. U.S. and Israeli spy satellites and planes flying over central and western Iraq last week found Scud B-1 and Scud-C missile launchers deployed at two Iraqi air bases, H-3 in the west and al-Baghdadi in the center of the country, the intelligence service reports. According to the photos, Iraq has also moved to these bases - where Iraqi armored brigades have been deployed since July - batteries of upgraded SA-6 anti-aircraft missiles of the type used to shoot down a U.S. drone this week. These improved surface-to-air missiles can hit targets flying above 23,000 feet. U.S. and Israeli reconnaissance data also revealed an increase over the past 10 days in the number of Iraqi military personnel stationed near Syrian armored headquarters in northern Syria since the end of July. Nonetheless, Washington has yet to make a final decision, and the operation could be postponed for several days, Debka reports. In the past 24 hours, Israel has passed to the United States fresh intelligence information regarding the visit to Damascus last week by Iraqi Vice President Taha Yassin Ramadan. Ramadan, who turned up suddenly for urgent talks with Syrian President Bashar Assad and Syrian military chiefs, conveyed a personal appeal from Iraqi leader Saddam Hussein to order a Hezbollah attack on Israel the moment the U.S. strikes at Iraq. Assad agreed to Saddam's request. Saddam counts on Israel being pinned down by the Hezbollah and, therefore, too busy to join the fray against Iraq. Ramadan told his Syrian hosts that Iraq, if attacked by America, would not hesitate to launch missile strikes against Saudi Arabia, Kuwait and Israel, as well as U.S. military targets in the Middle East, Red Sea and Persian Gulf. The Israelis also handed on intelligence information that the talks Palestinian foreign affairs executive Nabil Shaath held in Damascus this week centered on Syrian-Palestinian-Hezbollah collaboration in anticipation of a U.S. offensive against Iraq. Arafat's visit to the Syrian capital did not come up at all, despite reports to the contrary. Nabil Shaath, a businessman who never touches military issues, was deliberately picked by Arafat to go to Damascus to disguise his real mission. On another front, military sources report that the Egyptian Second Army exercise beginning at the Suez Canal port of Ismailia Tuesday also changed its character in the light of a possible U.S. strike against Iraq. Originally planned as a joint maneuver for the Second and Third armies, to take place in the first week of September on the west bank of the Suez canal, its first objective was to subject Israel to Egyptian political and military heat in its war with the Palestinians. Those plans changed as a consequence of last week's visit to Cairo by Gen. Tommy Franks, chief of the U.S. Central Command, to furnish the Egyptian government with information on the up and coming U.S. military operation against Iraq. So it was the Second Army, whose electronic warfare systems are more sophisticated than the Third Army's, which began maneuvers this week in the Ismailia area, along with the Egyptian air force. Those systems and intense Egyptian air activity were useful for masking U.S. air and sea transport of the aircraft and equipment required for the anti-Iraq operation. U.S. military flights passed through Egyptian air bases and U.S. air bases in the Sinai, particularly Sharm el-Sheikh. In addition to the Second Army's role in these diversionary tactics, the Third Army was put on the alert for unusual military activity in the Middle East and Persian Gulf. The highly mobile and capable Third Army has three parachute battalions and the means - some of them American - to drop them over various points in the Middle East and the Persian Gulf, at no more than three to four hours' notice. Pointers to a U.S. military operation were also heard, according to military sources, in Jerusalem and in the telephone conversations U.S. Secretary of State Colin Powell held with Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon and Foreign Minister Shimon Peres in the second half of the week. Powell asked them, on behalf of President Bush, to be considerate of U.S. military activity against Iraq and display the utmost restraint in the face of Palestinian terrorist activities. That is why Sharon informed Powell of Israel's consent to withdraw its troops from Palestinian Beit Jala, notwithstanding continued Palestinian gunfire from the village against Jerusalem. Military sources say, in the light of evidence on the ground, that the next U.S. anti-Baghdad operation will differ from previous U.S. strikes. Previously, bombs, missiles and cruise missiles were deployed against Iraqi strategic targets. This time, along with planes and missiles, the brunt of the operation will be carried by U.S. Special Forces landing in eastern Jordan, western Iraq and maybe even northern Syria. They will first wipe out the Iraqi military forces stationed in Jordan and Syria, then advance and destroy the Iraqi armored forces, missiles and planes deployed in the H-3 and al-Baghdadi air bases. After that, U.S. Special Forces troops will go on to attack military targets in central Iraq and possibly, Iraqi bases around Baghdad, too. From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Dec 4 07:28:27 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA06482; Tue, 4 Dec 2001 07:25:02 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2001 07:25:02 -0800 Message-ID: <3C0CEA79.E3283499@verisoft.com.tr> Date: Tue, 04 Dec 2001 17:23:37 +0200 From: hamdi ucar X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 To: VortexB , Nurhan Subject: Self defending right Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"cgxAc2.0.Db1.DhE3y"@mx1> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/1505 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Hi All, Bush said Israel has right to defend itself. Yes, everybody has right to defend themselves. If one intruder invade your house, your property and attack you, kill your family members, you have right to defend yourself and your property. Palestinian land West Bank is invaded and under occupation for 20 years or more. Invaders have NO RIGHT to qualify the people they occupy their land as terrorist. Terrorism is a concept valid in peace time. Innocence is also questionable in war time. In WW2, cities are bombed, even mass destruction weapons are used. That was wrong, unjustifiable unless there is no other choice. War itself is indeed unjustifiable unless there is no other choice. War is not a thing to proud of to do and to declare. Innocent people are killed in wars by armies. One can not say these armies are terrorists automatically. The reason is important and also the method and target. Otherwise releasing bombs over japan cities could be nothing than terrorism. Everybody should think precisely before labeling some party as terrorist. It should be also taken account that money is also considered as weapon, and it is indeed. So one dont need to kill people with bullets and bombs, but with economic practices. Use or control money to kill or damage opponents should be understand as act of war. If there is no declared war and the practice is directly effective on people this should be considered as terrorism, I think. Regards, hamdi ucar From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Dec 7 19:18:51 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA14378; Fri, 7 Dec 2001 19:14:43 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2001 19:14:43 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones@pop.jump.net (Unverified) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3C0CEA79.E3283499@verisoft.com.tr> Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2001 21:13:32 -0600 To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: Self defending right Resent-Message-ID: <"DmtWi2.0.bW3.YMO4y"@mx1> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/1506 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ***{Now this post is a surprise! I was bounced off of the regular vortex group many months ago, and have received nothing since. And now I get this post from Hamdi. Very odd! Could it be that this is the first post to vortexb-l in all that period of time, and that for some reason I have only been blocked from vortex-l and not from vortexb-l? To test that theory, I'm going to reply to Hamdi, and see what happens. :-) -MJ}*** >Hi All, > >Bush said Israel has right to defend itself. ***{Yup: and he also said that "the Great Satan" has the right to defend itself. :-) -MJ}*** >Yes, everybody has right to defend themselves. If one intruder invade your >house, your property and attack you, kill your family members, you have >right to defend yourself and your property. Palestinian land West Bank is >invaded and under occupation for 20 years or more. Invaders have NO RIGHT >to qualify the people they occupy their land as terrorist. ***{The Israelis are *not* invaders. Here are the facts: (1) Palestine was a desert with a virtually zero population density until the advent of the Zionist movement, which began in the mid 19th century with the publication of a number of books advocating Jewish settlements, and actual Jewish emigrants began arriving in the 1880's to what they described as an "unpopulated wasteland." (2) As successive waves of Jewish emigrants arrived, struggled, and finally succeeded in growing crops, forming settlements, and creating a marketplace where before there had been none, impoverished Moslems began to immigrate into the region, seeking jobs and, in some cases establishing farms and businesses of their own. Bottom line: the Jews tamed the desert which the Moslems called "Palestine" and made it a worthwhile place to live, after which the waves of Moslem settlement began; hence if one group or the other is to be termed "invaders," it would have to be the Moslems, not the Jews. -Mitchell Jones}*** >Terrorism is a concept valid in peace time. Innocence is also questionable >in war time. In WW2, cities are bombed, even mass destruction weapons are >used. That was wrong, unjustifiable unless there is no other choice. War >itself is indeed unjustifiable unless there is no other choice. War is not >a thing to proud of to do and to declare. Innocent people are killed in >wars by armies. One can not say these armies are terrorists automatically. >The reason is important and also the method and target. Otherwise >releasing bombs over japan cities could be nothing than terrorism. >Everybody should think precisely before labeling some party as terrorist. ***{Terrorists declared war on the Great Satan, and now the Great Satan is kicking terrorist butt. Likewise, terrorists have declared war on Israel, and the day is fast approaching when the little Israeli pit bull will be chewing terrorist butt as well. All that will be required for that to happen is either (a) the Great Satan removes his leash, or (b) the little Israeli pit bull becomes so agitated that it breaks the leash. Either outcome, in my view, will be well and good. -MJ}*** >It should be also taken account that money is also considered as weapon, >and it is indeed. So one dont need to kill people with bullets and bombs, >but with economic practices. Use or control money to kill or damage >opponents should be understand as act of war. If there is no declared war >and the practice is directly effective on people this should be considered >as terrorism, I think. ***{Reasonable acts of retaliation are exempt from moral condemnation, even if they result in collateral damage. The reason: the initiation of force brings about a conflict of interest between the victims and those non-victims who are likely to receive the collateral damage, and, when a conflict of interest is created, it is every man for himself, with the moral responsibility resting squarely on the shoulders of the agent-the terrorists, in this case-which brought the conflict of interest into existence. -MJ}*** >Regards, > >hamdi ucar ________________ Quote of the month: "The soldiers of militant Islam and Pan-Arabism do not hate the West because of Israel; they hate Israel because of the West. Zionism, to them, is an expression and representation of Western civilization." --Benjamin Netanyahu From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Dec 8 06:44:06 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id GAA21150; Sat, 8 Dec 2001 06:43:13 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2001 06:43:13 -0800 Message-ID: <3C125FF4.307C@bellsouth.net> Date: Sat, 08 Dec 2001 10:46:12 -0800 From: Terry Blanton Organization: . X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-BLS20 (Win16; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Self defending right References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"v6awj2.0.PA5.1SY4y"@mx1> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/1507 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mitchell Jones wrote: > > ***{Now this post is a surprise! I was bounced off of the regular vortex > group many months ago, and have received nothing since. And now I get this > post from Hamdi. Very odd! Could it be that this is the first post to > vortexb-l in all that period of time, and that for some reason I have only > been blocked from vortex-l and not from vortexb-l? To test that theory, I'm > going to reply to Hamdi, and see what happens. :-) -MJ}*** I doubt seriously that you were blocked. I get bounced from vortex-l about once a year and simply resubscribe. Regards, Terry From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Dec 8 07:46:48 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA12741; Sat, 8 Dec 2001 07:45:56 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2001 07:45:56 -0800 From: "xplorer" To: Subject: RE: Self defending right Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2001 22:49:49 +0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <3C125FF4.307C@bellsouth.net> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Importance: Normal Resent-Message-ID: <"Q4n5j1.0.t63.pMZ4y"@mx1> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/1508 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Me too. This list has been dormant for a while. Anyone else still out there ? I still have a few questions if anyone cares to answer... > -----Original Message----- > From: Terry Blanton [mailto:commengr@bellsouth.net] > Sent: 2001 December 09 Sunday 01:46 > To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com > Subject: Re: Self defending right > > > Mitchell Jones wrote: > > > > ***{Now this post is a surprise! I was bounced off of the regular vortex > > group many months ago, and have received nothing since. And now I get this > > post from Hamdi. Very odd! Could it be that this is the first post to > > vortexb-l in all that period of time, and that for some reason I have only > > been blocked from vortex-l and not from vortexb-l? To test that theory, I'm > > going to reply to Hamdi, and see what happens. :-) -MJ}*** > > I doubt seriously that you were blocked. I get bounced from vortex-l > about once a year and simply resubscribe. > > Regards, > > Terry > > From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Dec 8 08:50:35 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA03479; Sat, 8 Dec 2001 08:49:38 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2001 08:49:38 -0800 Message-ID: <3C124458.477EF80@verisoft.com.tr> Date: Sat, 08 Dec 2001 18:48:24 +0200 From: hamdi ucar X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Self defending right References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"MiZzc2.0.Is.YIa4y"@mx1> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/1509 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mitchell, Thank you for enlighten me. I dont know what is "the great Satan" specifically. Could you more explicit? Mitchell Jones wrote: > > ***{Now this post is a surprise! I was bounced off of the regular vortex > group many months ago, and have received nothing since. And now I get this > post from Hamdi. Very odd! Could it be that this is the first post to > vortexb-l in all that period of time, and that for some reason I have only > been blocked from vortex-l and not from vortexb-l? To test that theory, I'm > going to reply to Hamdi, and see what happens. :-) -MJ}*** > > >Hi All, > > > >Bush said Israel has right to defend itself. > > ***{Yup: and he also said that "the Great Satan" has the right to defend > itself. :-) -MJ}*** > From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Dec 8 14:26:33 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA25794; Sat, 8 Dec 2001 14:25:20 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2001 14:25:20 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones@pop.jump.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3C124458.477EF80@verisoft.com.tr> References: Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2001 16:13:51 -0600 To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: Self defending right Resent-Message-ID: <"_V_qj.0.tI6.FDf4y"@mx1> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/1510 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >Mitchell, > >Thank you for enlighten me. > >I dont know what is "the great Satan" specifically. Could you more explicit? ***{Islamic fundamentalists frequently refer to the United States as "the Great Satan," so I decided to try to be amusing by adopting their terminology. Sorry for the confusion. --MJ}*** >Mitchell Jones wrote: >> >> ***{Now this post is a surprise! I was bounced off of the regular vortex >> group many months ago, and have received nothing since. And now I get this >> post from Hamdi. Very odd! Could it be that this is the first post to >> vortexb-l in all that period of time, and that for some reason I have only >> been blocked from vortex-l and not from vortexb-l? To test that theory, I'm >> going to reply to Hamdi, and see what happens. :-) -MJ}*** >> >> >Hi All, >> > >> >Bush said Israel has right to defend itself. >> >> ***{Yup: and he also said that "the Great Satan" has the right to defend >> itself. :-) -MJ}*** ________________ Quote of the month: "The soldiers of militant Islam and Pan-Arabism do not hate the West because of Israel; they hate Israel because of the West. Zionism, to them, is an expression and representation of Western civilization." --Benjamin Netanyahu From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Dec 17 12:55:12 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA17940; Mon, 17 Dec 2001 12:53:23 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 12:53:23 -0800 Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20011217155303.00abf9a8@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 15:53:14 -0500 To: vortexB-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: The Osama Sweepstakes Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"BD32g3.0.EN4._ib7y"@mx1> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/1511 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: See: http://slate.msn.com/default.aspx?id=2059711 From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Dec 22 18:10:51 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA16456; Sat, 22 Dec 2001 18:08:03 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2001 18:08:03 -0800 Message-ID: <3C253A51.B9812C63@verisoft.com.tr> Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2001 03:58:41 +0200 From: hamdi ucar X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 To: VortexB Subject: Foundation Of Justice Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"EP3gH3.0.-04.3oJ9y"@mx1> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/1512 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: In wild life there is no justice in human sense I observed so far. But still there are justifications. Wild life is based on economy, evolution require predators and preys, consumption of one life save another, so relation between predators and preys is justifiable, as long as the evolution goes on. Maybe the main difference between wild life and civilized life is the justice. Justice is not just for keep order in communities, and "order" should not be foundation of justice. Order can be kept without justice, by power and by other mechanisms as kept on nature and in wild life. So, what should be the foundation of justice? From my point point of view, life, protecting life, freedom and fundemental rights should be foundations of justice. Justice should cover rights of every living beings have some consciousness, less or more. But I observe, there are quite different considerations. In ancient times, mostly traditions are the foundation of justice. The top authority, has right to provide the justice. Islam says God is the foundation of justice. Belief system determine the rights and rules. Actually this not exactly correct. The holy book says humans (believers) SHOULD constitute their own rules cleverly under the guidelines its philosophy and ethics. Anyway, justice is belong to God. Maybe some other religions say similar things. Actually this is quite natural. Human mind require a reference for its existence, to determine is its place in the middle of other creatures. Justice is not easy to constitute while everything is relative. Maybe I am wrong to think the justice should be an absolute concept, also the freedom and ethics. It is would be too bad if there would be no way or a reason to constitute them universally. In communism, equality is foundation of justice. Justice is established as long as individuals kept under equal conditions, and equalized. In U.S., the benefit is considered as foundation of justice, now. Rights are arranged for the benefit of the system, for the profit. Money is the protector of rights. Everything is measured by money even life. If something have no money-like value, it is totally worthless. I think this NOT the consequence of the liberalist system, conceptually. I dont know much about liberalist system, but I think there is nothing wrong to offer challenges to people to improve themselves and be rewarded. If one work for benefit of the system, it can benefit from this work. But justice should be kept separated from the challange/reward system I think. The system should NOT restrict rights or criminalize an individual appearing what he/she does not in benefit of the system. What strikes me is mind of individuals appears to accept this logic (embedding benefit in justice). I observe that people favor benefit versus rights and freedom, to favor freedom and rights be assigned to power and to money but not to them naturally. This maybe because America is NOT rose historically on respecting rights and freedom, but on abuse of rights, slavery, extermination of natives and exploitation, and this is practiced up to recent times. (I am not suing any nations for past practices, history of human kind is full of shame for every nations and communities, hardly to find exceptions.) Justice should be free of benefit notion. First, benefit is subjective by its nature. One thing is in benefit of one may not be in benefit of other. Second, it is not straight forward to determine a thing is in benefit or not. It is proved may times, things appeared in benefit, were actually not and vice verse. The main reason I interested on justice in U.S. specifically is U.S. considers their laws applicable universally and practice it. Maybe most interesting subject is the state of science in the scope of benefit and freedom. If discovering truth of nature is evaluated in benefit criteria, science could not be advanced, because it is more benefitable for systems in general to "adapt" truths to themselves rather than adapt themselves to truths. So truths would be categorized as benefitable and non benefitable. This lead to conditional science. This is very unfortunate and I believe it is experienced for a long time. This is the reason of major discoveries in physics are being ignored or suppressed. Maybe the main reason of success of quantum theory to dominate the 20. century is defining truth as a statistical concept so it convince us that we never need to know the truth. :) hamdi ucar From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Dec 23 20:47:41 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id UAA11769; Sun, 23 Dec 2001 20:45:31 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2001 20:45:31 -0800 Message-ID: <3C26B139.C5630377@verisoft.com.tr> Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2001 06:38:17 +0200 From: hamdi ucar X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 To: VortexB Subject: Mike Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"1C0d_1.0.pt2.hBh9y"@mx1> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/1513 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Mike, Mails that I sent to your mailbox was bounced. Please give me an alternate way. hamdix From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Dec 23 21:22:49 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id VAA20888; Sun, 23 Dec 2001 21:20:02 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2001 21:20:02 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones@pop.jump.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3C253A51.B9812C63@verisoft.com.tr> Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2001 23:17:18 -0600 To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: Foundation Of Justice Resent-Message-ID: <"kBs1s.0.E65.2ih9y"@mx1> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/1514 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Hamdi Ucar wrote: >In wild life there is no justice in human sense I observed so far. But >still there are justifications. > >Wild life is based on economy, evolution require predators and preys, >consumption of one life save another, so relation between predators and >preys is justifiable, as long as the evolution goes on. > >Maybe the main difference between wild life and civilized life is the >justice. Justice is not just for keep order in communities, and "order" >should not be foundation of justice. Order can be kept without justice, by >power and by other mechanisms as kept on nature and in wild life. > >So, what should be the foundation of justice? ***{Hamdi, I think the root of the concept of justice lies in the idea that disputes over property can be settled on the basis of reason, in the same way that disputes about facts can be settled on the basis of reason. In other words, the notion of "reasoned justice" is, in a very real way, redundant. Justice, in other words, requires that disputes over property be turned over to a neutral, reasoning arbiter--someone who has no biases that cause him to support one side or the other, and who is willing to look objectively at the evidence and evaluate it fairly. Such an arbiter will proceed in the same way that a scientist is supposed to proceed. His courtroom will be focused on the search for truth in the same sense that a scientific laboratory is supposed to be. Of course, in order for disputes about property to be settled on the basis of reason, it must be possible to find, in the real world, principles of jurisprudence that permit objective decision making. Without them, subjectivity necessarily reigns. Reasoned justice, for example, cannot be based on any sort of man-made law, because "law" is anything a sovereign or a legislature says it is--which means, more often than not, that it is ridiculous nonsense. Then what principle can form the basis of reasoned justice--i.e., of justice itself? The answer: the principle of prior claims--the notion that, in a dispute over property, the provable prior claim is the best claim. And what is a "provable prior claim"? It is the claim which, based on factual evidence, has the earliest basis. If, for example, you have lived in your home for 20 years, and a stranger invades it and kicks you out, you will be able to prove, by a preponderance of evidence, that your claim antedates his. Result: the burden of proof will be upon him to demonstrate, via a title transfer signed by you, by credible eyewitnesses, etc., that the title which was yours for a 20 year period is now his by voluntary transfer. If he can't do it, then it is you, not he, who has the provable prior claim, and the decision of a reasoning arbiter will be in your favor. That, in briefest essence, is how reasoned justice works, and with a sufficient amount of thought the principles underlying that example should become clear to you. --Mitchell Jones}*** [snip] >hamdi ucar ________________ Quote of the month: "The soldiers of militant Islam and Pan-Arabism do not hate the West because of Israel; they hate Israel because of the West. Zionism, to them, is an expression and representation of Western civilization." --Benjamin Netanyahu From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Dec 24 11:17:51 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA13245; Mon, 24 Dec 2001 11:16:34 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2001 11:16:34 -0800 Message-ID: <3C277D59.1F74F162@verisoft.com.tr> Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2001 21:09:13 +0200 From: hamdi ucar X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 To: VortexB Subject: Re: Foundation Of Justice References: <3C2711D5.17157B05@verisoft.com.tr> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"sQf-i2.0.uE3.Iyt9y"@mx1> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/1515 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mitchell, Thank you for your input. As you explained, I am seeking a base for reasoning to determine rights, to determine what is justifiable and not, in a civilized world. Reasoning that you provide is binding any kind of right to "ownership". Ownership in turn, to be valid need some extra assumptions in order to determine rights of living beings. I can extend ownership to "right to use" and "exclusivity". It also require am exchange of ownership mechanism to be used. You give kind of inheritance mechanism for this. But this is not sufficient to distribute ownership. How a man acquire possession of things from his born to its later ages? Obviously some other transfer mechanism are needed. As "rights" are bind to "possession" in your logic, transfer of rights should be considered. Should all rights allowed be transferred? These require further principles which can not be extracted from concept of ownership. Exclusivity is also a problem as we naturally use shared resources in earth like O2. O2 is product of living beings capable to photosynthesis. Also the water. May the water one needs and rain are produced from others "properties". Who will own rights of the rain? So, further principles are needed to determine rights over shared resources which are not property. Even I restrict the concept of ownership to "property" in the meaning of land, it is not clear how it extend the ownership an exclusivity of the land in downward direction to the center to earth and into the sky. In other imprortant issue is use and consumption of other living beings by us. All these beings have genetic designs in their DNA. These designs are very complex and still can not be made by human capabilities. These designs are required for their existence therefor we profit on them. Who have the ownership of these designs? Not in a religious context., these beings owns and share their genetic designs with others in the mechanism of evolution. All these species had challenged with nature to carry their design to future, that is their existence. These designs are their most valuable possessions. Human existence require existence of other species, from bacteria, grass, tress,crops and animals we consume. We profit from them not because we possess them (even we farm them, we do not possess their genetic designs), but we need them for to live. I think why justice and rights should be based on necessities and "justifiable" criteria rather than ownership. And most strong argument for justification is life. May you recall I had previously referenced this genetic design ownership argument to integrate rights of other species than humans on our legal system. This is an important arguments because we have already laws and logic to protect designs like copyrights and patents. Even some biogenetic research firms have patents of genetic material like mouses that are used on experimenting human diseases on them. So it would not be hard technically include natural designs and gene pools on our copyright protecting system. As mike stated, many communities and nations have very limited notion of ownership. They have not exclusivity over resources and rights and justice is not based on possession. From these facts I can deduce the ownership is not foundation of rights and justice but ownership is a product of rights according a specific agreement over communities. > Mitchell Jones wrote: > > > > Hamdi Ucar wrote: > > > > >In wild life there is no justice in human sense I observed so far. But > > >still there are justifications. > > > > > >Wild life is based on economy, evolution require predators and preys, > > >consumption of one life save another, so relation between predators and > > >preys is justifiable, as long as the evolution goes on. > > > > > >Maybe the main difference between wild life and civilized life is the > > >justice. Justice is not just for keep order in communities, and "order" > > >should not be foundation of justice. Order can be kept without justice, by > > >power and by other mechanisms as kept on nature and in wild life. > > > > > >So, what should be the foundation of justice? > > > > ***{Hamdi, I think the root of the concept of justice lies in the idea that > > disputes over property can be settled on the basis of reason, in the same > > way that disputes about facts can be settled on the basis of reason. In > > other words, the notion of "reasoned justice" is, in a very real way, > > redundant. > > > > Justice, in other words, requires that disputes over property be turned > > over to a neutral, reasoning arbiter--someone who has no biases that cause > > him to support one side or the other, and who is willing to look > > objectively at the evidence and evaluate it fairly. Such an arbiter will > > proceed in the same way that a scientist is supposed to proceed. His > > courtroom will be focused on the search for truth in the same sense that a > > scientific laboratory is supposed to be. > > > > Of course, in order for disputes about property to be settled on the basis > > of reason, it must be possible to find, in the real world, principles of > > jurisprudence that permit objective decision making. Without them, > > subjectivity necessarily reigns. Reasoned justice, for example, cannot be > > based on any sort of man-made law, because "law" is anything a sovereign or > > a legislature says it is--which means, more often than not, that it is > > ridiculous nonsense. > > > > Then what principle can form the basis of reasoned justice--i.e., of > > justice itself? The answer: the principle of prior claims--the notion that, > > in a dispute over property, the provable prior claim is the best claim. > > > > And what is a "provable prior claim"? It is the claim which, based on > > factual evidence, has the earliest basis. > > > > If, for example, you have lived in your home for 20 years, and a stranger > > invades it and kicks you out, you will be able to prove, by a preponderance > > of evidence, that your claim antedates his. Result: the burden of proof > > will be upon him to demonstrate, via a title transfer signed by you, by > > credible eyewitnesses, etc., that the title which was yours for a 20 year > > period is now his by voluntary transfer. If he can't do it, then it is you, > > not he, who has the provable prior claim, and the decision of a reasoning > > arbiter will be in your favor. > > > > That, in briefest essence, is how reasoned justice works, and with a > > sufficient amount of thought the principles underlying that example should > > become clear to you. > > > > --Mitchell Jones}*** > > hamdi ucar From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Dec 24 22:35:54 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id WAA15552; Mon, 24 Dec 2001 22:34:54 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2001 22:34:54 -0800 From: "xplorer" To: Subject: Foundation Of Justice: Property Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2001 13:39:01 +0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <3C277D59.1F74F162@verisoft.com.tr> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"Efy3J.0.xo3.Eu1Ay"@mx1> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/1516 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: VortexB lives on ... amazing! To Hamdi and Mitchell, A thought for your millstones: =========Property--------- Property is an attribute of an economy - however it is acquired, it is a result of effort. The effort of a being to produce or acquire 'property' is an expense of time and/or energy of the being, and, conversely, any product of effort is property, in some form or another. It might be a trade of previously acquired property for a newer, more desireable property. 'Property' is an extension of the being. Any interference against the property is interference against the being who owns the property. ====Justice-------- Justice, historicly is an effort of retribution and punishment, mere self-gratification of ego and spirit. Justice (as practiced) is a moniker for destroying 'criminals', preferably with great circus entertainment value, rather than to restore economy or otherwise reverse 'injustice' to victims. I prefer that Justice be redefined as follows: Justice - the restoration and/or preservation of economic balance among beings/parties. Justice then becomes purely a means for 'righting wrongs', wrongs being in a any way you cre to perceive them as efforts by one party to either diminish or steal property of another party, be that property physical or an attribute. Not equality, as some people make more effort than others, resulting in their greater ownership of property. Perhaps someone else can describe this better. I will address community property separately. happy holidays... > -----Original Message----- > From: hamdi ucar [mailto:hamdix@verisoft.com.tr] > Sent: 2001 December 25 Tuesday 02:09 > To: VortexB > Subject: Re: Foundation Of Justice > > > > Mitchell, > > Thank you for your input. As you explained, I am seeking a base for reasoning to determine rights, to determine what > is justifiable and not, in a civilized world. Reasoning that you provide is binding any kind of right to "ownership". > Ownership in turn, to be valid need some extra assumptions in order to determine rights of living beings. I can > extend ownership to "right to use" and "exclusivity". It also require am exchange of ownership mechanism to be used. > You give kind of inheritance mechanism for this. But this is not sufficient to distribute ownership. How a man > acquire possession of things from his born to its later ages? Obviously some other transfer mechanism are needed. As > "rights" are bind to "possession" in your logic, transfer of rights should be considered. Should all rights allowed > be transferred? These require further principles which can not be extracted from concept of ownership. >*< > As mike stated, many communities and nations have very limited notion of ownership. They have not exclusivity over > resources and rights and justice is not based on possession. From these facts I can deduce the ownership is not > foundation of rights and justice but ownership is a product of rights according a specific agreement over communities. > > > > Mitchell Jones wrote: > > > > > > Hamdi Ucar wrote: > > > > > > >In wild life there is no justice in human sense I observed so far. But > > > >still there are justifications. > > > > > > > >Wild life is based on economy, evolution require predators and preys, > > > >consumption of one life save another, so relation between predators and > > > >preys is justifiable, as long as the evolution goes on. > > > > > > > >Maybe the main difference between wild life and civilized life is the > > > >justice. Justice is not just for keep order in communities, and "order" > > > >should not be foundation of justice. Order can be kept without justice, by > > > >power and by other mechanisms as kept on nature and in wild life. > > > > > > > >So, what should be the foundation of justice? > > > > > > ***{Hamdi, I think the root of the concept of justice lies in the idea that > > > disputes over property can be settled on the basis of reason, in the same > > > way that disputes about facts can be settled on the basis of reason. In > > > other words, the notion of "reasoned justice" is, in a very real way, > > > redundant. > > > > > > Justice, in other words, requires that disputes over property be turned > > > over to a neutral, reasoning arbiter--someone who has no biases that cause > > > him to support one side or the other, and who is willing to look > > > objectively at the evidence and evaluate it fairly. Such an arbiter will > > > proceed in the same way that a scientist is supposed to proceed. His > > > courtroom will be focused on the search for truth in the same sense that a > > > scientific laboratory is supposed to be. > > > > > > Of course, in order for disputes about property to be settled on the basis > > > of reason, it must be possible to find, in the real world, principles of > > > jurisprudence that permit objective decision making. Without them, > > > subjectivity necessarily reigns. Reasoned justice, for example, cannot be > > > based on any sort of man-made law, because "law" is anything a sovereign or > > > a legislature says it is--which means, more often than not, that it is > > > ridiculous nonsense. > > > >*< > > > > > > --Mitchell Jones}*** > > > > > hamdi ucar > > From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Dec 24 22:37:59 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id WAA15571; Mon, 24 Dec 2001 22:34:56 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2001 22:34:56 -0800 From: "xplorer" To: Subject: Foundation Of Justice: Community property Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2001 13:39:03 +0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <3C277D59.1F74F162@verisoft.com.tr> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"WkumY1.0.Ep3.Fu1Ay"@mx1> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/1517 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Greetings again, Hamdi and Mitchell, Community property, such as 'rain' and air might not be what you think they are. Rain falls on everyone, right ? Air is a 'right', right ? Not really. Consider what happens to the lazy bum who habitually steals and consistently makes a nuisance of himself to others aboard some distant space station. Allergic to work, devout communist that he is, he would, in short order find his 'right' to atmospheric pressure suspended for a term long enough to ensure his activities permanently cease. Ideally, his 'possessions' would then be redistributed to those he had previously short-changed. Does your 'right' to air mean that you have the 'right' to steal the oxygen from it, to pollute it with CO, CO2, etc. and make it difficult for others to breathe ? Rain should fall where it will, and air should follow the wind. Whatever you do to it while in your 'domain' is then a chargeable cost you owe the community, however you wish to measure it. Why should the community be compensated ? Because the resources you use are then no longer available to the rest of the community, be they downwind, downriver, or whatever. The community is a framework that defines the boundaries of property. It is not some 'higher authority' that needs to be worshipped, as communists do, nor does it have pre-emptive say, as most governments prescribe. It is simply the collection of individuals that share a common resource such as an atmosphere, or river drainage. ............... As to DNA and other 'designs' I regard 'design protection' - and anything else regarding intellectual property - as being at least unenforcable and moreso a complete waste of time and community resources. On this side of the planet are good examples of what a waste of time it is. Consider a Galactic Empire with millions of little bespectacled green-skinned accountant-types zooming through zillions of cubic light-years trying to enforce intellectual protection on DNA - what if it's your DNA ? - do you then need to be terminated because some holo-hero on the other side of the galaxy designed a DNA- baby for his wife and got court-protection that it would never be duplicated - years before you were born? Absurdities are born at relativistic velocities... If you design it -!- build, or sell it, or form partnership with someone who can. Don't waste taxpayer dollars trying to enforce the unenforceable. =====afterthought------ The 'Greenies' are fond of reciting that the Earth surface is 75% water covered - a prime component of our environmental balancesheet. I would rather point out that the Universe we know about is primarily a radiation-poisoned near-vacuum, and that any environmental balancesheet begins there, not from a basis of abundant air and water. ----followon: Our inheritance is primarily that our ancestors had the good sense to settle on this planet, ensuring we had abundant air, water, etc. We should regard this as an inheritance, and not squander it. cheers Paul > -----Original Message----- > From: hamdi ucar [mailto:hamdix@verisoft.com.tr] > Sent: 2001 December 25 Tuesday 02:09 > To: VortexB > Subject: Re: Foundation Of Justice > > > > Mitchell, > . . . > > Exclusivity is also a problem as we naturally use shared resources in earth like O2. O2 is product of living beings > capable to photosynthesis. Also the water. May the water one needs and rain are produced from others "properties". > Who will own rights of the rain? > > So, further principles are needed to determine rights over shared resources which are not property. Even I restrict > the concept of ownership to "property" in the meaning of land, it is not clear how it extend the ownership an > exclusivity of the land in downward direction to the center to earth and into the sky. > > In other imprortant issue is use and consumption of other living beings by us. All these beings have genetic designs > in their DNA. These designs are very complex and still can not be made by human capabilities. These designs are > required for their existence therefor we profit on them. Who have the ownership of these designs? Not in a religious > context., these beings owns and share their genetic designs with others in the mechanism of evolution. All these > species had challenged with nature to carry their design to future, that is their existence. These designs are their > most valuable possessions. Human existence require existence of other species, from bacteria, grass, tress,crops and > animals we consume. We profit from them not because we possess them (even we farm them, we do not possess their > genetic designs), but we need them for to live. I think why justice and rights should be based on necessities and > "justifiable" criteria rather than ownership. And most strong argument f! > or justification is life. > > May you recall I had previously referenced this genetic design ownership argument to integrate rights of other > species than humans on our legal system. This is an important arguments because we have already laws and logic to > protect designs like copyrights and patents. Even some biogenetic research firms have patents of genetic material > like mouses that are used on experimenting human diseases on them. So it would not be hard technically include > natural designs and gene pools on our copyright protecting system. > > As mike stated, many communities and nations have very limited notion of ownership. They have not exclusivity over > resources and rights and justice is not based on possession. From these facts I can deduce the ownership is not > foundation of rights and justice but ownership is a product of rights according a specific agreement over communities. > > > > Mitchell Jones wrote: > > > >*< > > > > > > ***{Hamdi, I think the root of the concept of justice lies in the idea that > > > disputes over property can be settled on the basis of reason, in the same > > > way that disputes about facts can be settled on the basis of reason. In > > > other words, the notion of "reasoned justice" is, in a very real way, > > > redundant. > > > > > > Justice, in other words, requires that disputes over property be turned > > > over to a neutral, reasoning arbiter--someone who has no biases that cause > > > him to support one side or the other, and who is willing to look > > > objectively at the evidence and evaluate it fairly. Such an arbiter will > > > proceed in the same way that a scientist is supposed to proceed. His > > > courtroom will be focused on the search for truth in the same sense that a > > > scientific laboratory is supposed to be. > > > > > > Of course, in order for disputes about property to be settled on the basis > > > of reason, it must be possible to find, in the real world, principles of > > > jurisprudence that permit objective decision making. Without them, > > > subjectivity necessarily reigns. Reasoned justice, for example, cannot be > > > based on any sort of man-made law, because "law" is anything a sovereign or > > > a legislature says it is--which means, more often than not, that it is > > > ridiculous nonsense. > > > Amen to that -> > > > > > > --Mitchell Jones}*** > > > > > hamdi ucar > > From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Dec 25 05:48:53 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id FAA09732; Tue, 25 Dec 2001 05:48:08 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2001 05:48:08 -0800 Sender: jack@mail3.centurytel.net Message-ID: <3C2882CE.2041BA76@centurytel.net> Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2001 13:44:46 +0000 From: "Taylor J. Smith" X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-Caldera (X11; I; Linux 2.2.5-15 i486) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Foundation Of Justice: Property References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; name="xp" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline; filename="xp" Resent-Message-ID: <"iwF103.0.wN2.OE8Ay"@mx1> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/1518 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: xplorer wrote: Justice, historicly is an effort of retribution ... Hi All, In this day of anti-terrorist measures, it is worthwhile to keep some things in mind. The essence of the wisdom of the Age of Pericles is clearing presented by Thucydides in the speech of the Athenian ambassador to the Melians: "Our opinion of the gods and our knowledge of men lead us to conclude that it is a necessary and general law of nature that men must rule wherever they can ... The strong will do what they have the power to do, and the weak will accept what they have to." In antithesis to this theory of empire, the foundation of American justice is our commitment to resist arbitrary and oppressive government at any cost. When we forget this, the corrupt fascists among us and the fanatic mullahs of whatever dogma will have won. The flip side of the current situation is well presented in "The Handmaid's Tale." Jack Smith From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Dec 27 15:22:27 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA08310; Thu, 27 Dec 2001 15:21:30 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2001 15:21:30 -0800 Message-ID: <3C2BAAE8.72898E1F@verisoft.com.tr> Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2001 01:12:40 +0200 From: hamdi ucar X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Foundation Of Justice References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"9Oj6b3.0.n12.vpwAy"@mx1> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/1519 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi, There is just a case on this issue.(from my point of view) See http://www.wired.com/news/politics/0,1283,49313,00.html "Why Worm Writers Stay Free". The article clearly qualify authors of virus and worm programs as criminal. Indeed government often arrest and charge them if they can identify them. So, you may probably think they are criminal also. Please note that many hackers write these program but they NOT distribute (send to victims by emails or inject into servers), instead they publish their source code in Vx zines. Government and public opinion makes AUTHOR of specific programs criminal. But what is the argument? This exactly like publishing a document about fire starting, publishing a hazardous chemical formula, etc. Argument that put them in criminal status is I think the benefit argument. All these documents are not in first hand for benefit of community or for the system. I think this argument is wrong. I tried to explain why justice can not founded on benefit or usefulness. For the same reason, cryptographic communication is banned in certain countries. Because personal cryptographic communication have no economic benefit. So freedoms can be discarded if no economical benefit. Is my mind is flawed or minds of the millions of people all around the world? :) Regards, hamdi ucar From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Dec 27 21:13:40 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id VAA19548; Thu, 27 Dec 2001 21:12:04 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2001 21:12:04 -0800 From: "xplorer" To: Subject: RE: Foundation Of Justice Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2001 12:16:08 +0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <3C2BAAE8.72898E1F@verisoft.com.tr> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Importance: Normal Resent-Message-ID: <"9wWZM1.0.Ln4.ay_Ay"@mx1> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/1520 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hackers are hackers Criminals are Criminals Not necessarily the same. Hacking is an activity. Crime is an activity that, by definition, involves violation of some law, be it correct or otherwise. Hacking doesn't necessarily mean violating a law. Unfortunately, the lowest common denominator (public perception) has not got the intelligence to perceive the difference. Hence the nutty legal system arising in 'true democracies'. [If you really love democracy, go live with apes and let them vote, too.] I would rather leave than try to change the system here. So I shall. bye for now. > -----Original Message----- > From: hamdi ucar [mailto:hamdix@verisoft.com.tr] > Sent: 2001 December 28 Friday 06:13 > To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com > Subject: Re: Foundation Of Justice > > > Hi, > > There is just a case on this issue.(from my point of view) See http://www.wired.com/news/politics/0,1283,49313,00.html > "Why Worm Writers Stay Free". The article clearly qualify authors of virus and worm programs as criminal. Indeed > government often arrest and charge them if they can identify them. > > So, you may probably think they are criminal also. Please note that many hackers write these program but they NOT > distribute (send to victims by emails or inject into servers), instead they publish their source code in Vx zines. > Government and public opinion makes AUTHOR of specific programs criminal. But what is the argument? This exactly like > publishing a document about fire starting, publishing a hazardous chemical formula, etc. > > Argument that put them in criminal status is I think the benefit argument. All these documents are not in first hand > for benefit of community or for the system. I think this argument is wrong. I tried to explain why justice can not > founded on benefit or usefulness. > > For the same reason, cryptographic communication is banned in certain countries. Because personal cryptographic > communication have no economic benefit. So freedoms can be discarded if no economical benefit. > > Is my mind is flawed or minds of the millions of people all around the world? :) > > Regards, > > hamdi ucar > > From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Dec 28 01:48:51 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id BAA31080; Fri, 28 Dec 2001 01:45:09 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2001 01:45:09 -0800 Message-ID: <3C2C3D77.9E3F944D@verisoft.com.tr> Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2001 11:37:59 +0200 From: hamdi ucar X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 To: VortexB Subject: message to Mike - others please ignore Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"kLdUa3.0.Zb7.by3By"@mx1> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/1521 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mike, my SMTP server can not send message to you. Here is the diagnostic. I will try to send my off-list mail by alternate ways. Could be a forward from 3'rd person. Regards, hamdi ucar --------------Diagnostic ---------- This Message was undeliverable due to the following reason: Each of the following recipients was rejected by a remote mail server. The reasons given by the server are included to help you determine why each recipient was rejected. Recipient: Reason: Service unavailable; [212.156.4.3] blocked using inputs.orbz.org, reason: Open relay. Please see http://orbz.org/?212.156.4.3 Please reply to if you feel this message to be in error. Reporting-MTA: dns; venus1.ttnet.net.tr Received-From-MTA:dns; verisoft.com.tr (195.174.6.61) Arrival-Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2001 12:29:00 +0300 Remote-Recipient: rfc822; Diagnostic-Code: smtp;551 SMTP-Deliver:BadRecipient Action: failed Status: 5.1.6 Remote-MTA: DNS;imgate1.snip.net Last-Attempt-Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2001 12:29:09 +0300 ----------------------- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Dec 28 11:56:15 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA00376; Fri, 28 Dec 2001 11:55:40 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2001 11:55:40 -0800 Message-ID: <003501c18ff2$a9dd6140$6e45ccd1@asus> From: "Mike Carrell" To: References: <3C2BAAE8.72898E1F@verisoft.com.tr> Subject: Re: Foundation Of Justice Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2001 14:04:04 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Resent-Message-ID: <"tntbp2.0.j5.yuCBy"@mx1> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/1522 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hamdi said: > Hi, > > There is just a case on this issue.(from my point of view) See http://www.wired.com/news/politics/0,1283,49313,00.html > "Why Worm Writers Stay Free". The article clearly qualify authors of virus and worm programs as criminal. Indeed government often arrest and charge them if they can identify them. Which governments? In the US, writing and even publishing worm and virus programs can be defended as "free speech" with Constitutional protections. In the US possession of a gun is protected by the Constitution. Killing is not. > > So, you may probably think they are criminal also. Please note that many hackers write these program but they NOT distribute (send to victims by emails or inject into servers), instead they publish their source code in Vx zines. Government and public opinion makes AUTHOR of specific programs criminal. But what is the argument? This exactly like publishing a document about fire starting, publishing a hazardous chemical formula, etc. In what countries? Free speech again. > > Argument that put them in criminal status is I think the benefit argument. All these documents are not in first hand for benefit of community or for the system. I think this argument is wrong. I tried to explain why justice can not founded on benefit or usefulness. > > For the same reason, cryptographic communication is banned in certain countries. Because personal cryptographic communication have no economic benefit. So freedoms can be discarded if no economical benefit. > > Is my mind is flawed or minds of the millions of people all around the world? :) You are using "economic benefit" as the criterion and it is a wrong criterion. "Benefit" is closer to a criterion, but the better understanding of it is "Survival" in the broadest sense. Survival is often defined as survival of self (Number 1), but that leads to wrong answers. You are also using "Justice" as the goal, when "Optimum Survival" leads to better policies. What is good for the duck hunter is not good for the duck. A better way of understanding is to think of survival as a matter of concentric circles: 1) Self 2) Family 3) Groups 4) Mankind 5) Other Life Forms 6) Physical Universe 7) Thought, Spirit 8) God, infinity. Now one can ask what leads to optimum survival? I'm indebted to L. Ron Hubbard for the above formulation. There is a Buddhist doctrine of "Interdependence of All Created Things" which points in a similar direction. The pseudo-independent hacker may flaunt his cleverness by publishing a virus or invading a computer. "He" may do no harm, but he is enabling someone less clever and more nasty to inflict harm on others, families, groups, and mankind to some degree. So is the gun manufacturer; he is making it easier for A to kill B. A person posing and flaunting his independence is in fact dependant on others for the computers he uses, the clothes he wears, the food he eats, etc. and etc. If he wishes to be independent, let him start *walking* now into the wilderness until he has to compete on a equal basis with other animals for food and shelter. It isn't Justice that one should seek, but Ethics, as optimum survival for all aspects of life as listed above. It is better to heal the fanatic than to kill him, but fanatics have caused immense destruction. This doesn't give easy answers. My point is that ****economic**** benefit is too narrow a vision. It happens that economics and money are metrics which are often used and misused to measure benefit. A better measure is "The Valuable Final Product" of any activity. I must again acknowledge Hubbard for this formulation, but its equivalent can be found in other formulations, such as Motorola's senior directive. The Valuable Final Product might be hours of enjoyment of music or acres of pleasant playgrounds -- these have nothing essentially to do with money. In the case of Motorola, the directive is to completely satisfy the customer, which might be the next stage of a production process as well as the final consumer. This leads to *exchange* as the lifeblood of "benefit". There has to be a balance of giving and receiving for health on any level of the list above. An extreme example is Hawking, who occupies the Newton chair at Cambridge University and is kept alive by constant medical support which includes specialized communication equipment. His VFP is teaching and his insights into the nature of the physical world. Essentially, society nurtures his mind. I find it interesting the some people attack the salaries of corporate CEOs but not the fees paid to entertainers and star athletes, who can earn more than the President of the US. It is an interesting exercise to understand the survival 'benefit' of the entertainers. it is there, but it is not obvious. Technology amplifies the potential for benefit and harm by any individual. I want to use my computer without threat of disruption by someone I never heard of and who never heard of me. There is a potential for anarchy. The anarchist may think that he would survive better if there were fewer rules, but he needs order and prediction as much as anyone else. Societies want to survive, too. And they have a right to protect themselves. And, yes, societies can become tyrannical and oppressive and the alternatives are to move or revolt. There are fewer places to move to now, so there is the implicit need to revolt, and revolution requires stealth, breeding the ":freedom fighter" or "terrorist", depending on whose side you are on. These are not optimum solutions to the problem of survival. Perhaps the one of the oldest formulas is still the best: The Golden Rule. Mike Carrell From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Dec 28 13:29:26 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA08846; Fri, 28 Dec 2001 13:28:02 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2001 13:28:02 -0800 Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20011228161145.02e9da70@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2001 16:28:24 -0500 To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com, From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Foundation Of Justice In-Reply-To: <003501c18ff2$a9dd6140$6e45ccd1@asus> References: <3C2BAAE8.72898E1F@verisoft.com.tr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"1qJcR1.0.9A2.YFEBy"@mx1> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/1523 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mike Carrell wrote: >Which governments? In the US, writing and even publishing worm and virus >programs can be defended as "free speech" with Constitutional protections. No, it can't. It is a violation of the Computer Abuse Act of 1984, which has not been found unconstitutional. The U.S. has never allow fully unbridled free speech. No nation ever has, or ever will. Here are some forms of prohibited speech: Fraud False advertising Libel Perjury Publishing military and industrial secrets Threat of bodily harm Deliberate false alarms (shouting fire in crowded theater) Impersonating authorities (counterfeiting and the like) Impersonating individuals (identity theft) Pornography (some types) No civil right is absolute. Even the extremists agree. The ACLU does not object to that list of restrictions, and I assume the NRA does not mind laws that prevent individuals from owning nuclear and "daisy cutter" bombs. (There are hundreds of people like Bill Gates who have enough money to make a bomb or purchase one from Russia.) - Jed From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Dec 29 04:46:55 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id EAA13496; Sat, 29 Dec 2001 04:41:46 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2001 04:41:46 -0800 Message-ID: <3C2DB868.485CE1C1@verisoft.com.tr> Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2001 14:34:48 +0200 From: hamdi ucar X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Foundation Of Justice References: <3C2BAAE8.72898E1F@verisoft.com.tr> <003501c18ff2$a9dd6140$6e45ccd1@asus> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"kKLMR.0.lI3.AeRBy"@mx1> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/1524 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Mike Carrell wrote: > > Hamdi said: > > > Hi, > > > > There is just a case on this issue.(from my point of view) See > http://www.wired.com/news/politics/0,1283,49313,00.html > > "Why Worm Writers Stay Free". The article clearly qualify authors of virus > and worm programs as criminal. Indeed government often arrest and charge > them if they can identify them. > > Which governments? In the US, writing and even publishing worm and virus > programs can be defended as "free speech" with Constitutional protections. > In the US possession of a gun is protected by the Constitution. Killing is > not. It was once a time (referencing Jed). More important than laws banning such form free speech of scientific research, (I think writing worm and viruses is an important part of computer science) opinion of people are. I am asking what should be criteria when a person judge an act and decide it should be a right that act or a crime. This decision reflect the foundation of justice in the mind of individual. If majority of people in a community agree on these foundations (not on decisions), a law would be established. So laws would not be simply wishes of majority in arbitrary manner, but would have a foundation. For example destruction of wild life, more specially to decide whether wolves allowed to exist or be killed is issue of justice. Should wolves be stripped of their right to exist because the harm livestock? I think answer depend on foundation of justice. If justice is based on benefit, and proved wolves have no benefit at all to people or to community, wolves needs be killed, even their races. If justice is based on basic rights and survival, wolves would be protected. Benefit criteria would not distinguish a earth worm (BTW earth worms carried from Europe about 100 years ago are slowly destroying forests in north of U.S. and it is impposible to stop them.) from a wolves, other nations next to frontiers or a extraterrestrial civilization. Criteria is simple: Are they useful, benefitable . For who? For a person, for a community, for humanity or for all species around, and in the universe. Enlarging the scope does not cure the problem of subjectivity, because benefit criteria is based on projection, needs assumptions to decide something is benefitable or not. This is subjective again. For example we (should) do science not because science is benefitable, but we have right to know truths. If science is based on benefit, as I said earlier, there would be good and bad sciences, even discovering a poison formula or developing an algorithm for better virus writing be considered as science, they will be classified ad bad science and people doing such researches would be discredited or banned. As I said above logic of people in determining rights is important. Actually communities dont need solid laws to punish people when the judge them guilty. Law enforcement and other legal processes are quite effective. For example Kevin Mitnick is held in prison for five years without a trial. Or company policies over employees are quite effective. > You are using "economic benefit" as the criterion and it is a wrong > criterion. "Benefit" is closer to a criterion, but the better understanding > of it is "Survival" in the broadest sense. Survival is often defined as > survival of self (Number 1), but that leads to wrong answers. Yes, "survival" should be the criterion. It is important to distinguish survival, benefit and economic benefit. I hope i explained the the effect "general benefit" criteria above. For the rest of your comments and about "circles" I will write a separate posting. Regards, hamdi ucar From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Dec 31 17:16:31 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA18112; Mon, 31 Dec 2001 17:15:13 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 17:15:13 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones@pop.jump.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3C277D59.1F74F162@verisoft.com.tr> References: <3C2711D5.17157B05@verisoft.com.tr> Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 19:13:42 -0600 To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: Foundation Of Justice Resent-Message-ID: <"J_njI1.0.xQ4.XsGCy"@mx1> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/1525 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: > >Mitchell, > >Thank you for your input. As you explained, I am seeking a base for >reasoning to determine rights, to determine what is justifiable and not, >in a civilized world. Reasoning that you provide is binding any kind of >right to "ownership". Ownership in turn, to be valid need some extra >assumptions in order to determine rights of living beings. ***{If you accept the goal of settling disputes about property on the basis of reason--i.e., if that is your premise--then the system of private ownership and of the inviolability of ownership rights, capitalism, inexorably follows. The reason: the principle of prior claims is the only way that a reasoning, neutral arbiter can settle disputes. Attempts to invoke any other principle lead inevitably to subjectivity and/or bias, and/or to a proliferation of disputes, which contradicts the goal of the entire enterprise. --MJ}*** I can extend ownership to "right to use" and "exclusivity". It also require an exchange of ownership mechanism to be used. You give kind of inheritance mechanism for this. But this is not sufficient to distribute ownership. How a man acquire possession of things from his born to its later ages? ***{By means of the principle of prior claims. (This is all covered in detail in my book, *The Dogs of Capitalism*, but I can only give a thumbnail sketch here.) The basic idea is that, by the principle of prior claims, the possessor of the earliest provable claim to a piece of property is the owner, until such time as he voluntarily transfers those rights to someone else. By this principle, first use confers ownership. Since the person who creates a value is first user, he is the owner of the value which he created, and, since the mind of a child, by acts of will, causes the body of the child to take various actions in furtherance of its well being--swallowing food, defecating, avoiding danger, etc.--the mind or person that is the child becomes, with the passage of time, responsible for a greater and greater portion of the value of that body, and, thus, the owner of it. Thus despite the fact that, initially, the blob of embryonic protoplasm is clearly the exclusive property of the mother, from whose body its nutrition is initially taken, with the passage of time an inextricable comingling of values takes place, as more and more of the material of the body comes to be due to the contributions of the child, and less and less being due to the contributions of the parents. By such a process, the child acquires ownership of his body, and then, by using his body to create external values--e.g., building a fence, writing a symphony, working on a production line, etc.--he acquires property of the more usual sort. --MJ}*** Obviously some other transfer mechanism are needed. As "rights" are bind to "possession" in your logic, transfer of rights should be considered. Should all rights allowed be transferred? These require further principles which can not be extracted from concept of ownership. ***{Transfer of ownership is implicit in the idea of ownership--i.e., in the idea that the owner can do with his property as he wishes, so long as he respects the rights of other owners to do likewise. --MJ}*** >Exclusivity is also a problem as we naturally use shared resources in >earth like O2. O2 is product of living beings capable to photosynthesis. >Also the water. May the water one needs and rain are produced from others >"properties". Who will own rights of the rain? ***{By the principle of prior claims, first use confers ownership. Thus if an explorer discovers a new, uninhabited continent, dams a river, and installs hydroelectric generators, he acquires ownership of the water rights in the watershed above his dam. Similarly, by the principle of prior claims, if someone builds a radio station and begins transmitting on a frequency not previously used by anyone else, at some specified level of power, he acquires ownership of the rights that are required to do that, and, thus, effective ownership of that frequency in the area where transmissions at his power level can be received. Likewise, if a fisherman discovers rich fishing grounds in a new, uncharted area of the ocean, and begins to conduct commercial fishing operations there, he acquires fishing rights in that area. And so on. Bottom line: determining who holds the prior claim to the disputed rights is central to all cases where a reasoned decision is to be made. --MJ}*** >So, further principles are needed to determine rights over shared >resources which are not property. ***{No, if the goal is to settle disputes about property on the basis of reason, the principle of prior claims is the only tool you need, and, indeed, it is the only hard fact capable of being used to settle property disputes by objective, scientific means. --MJ}*** Even I restrict the concept of ownership to "property" in the meaning of land, it is not clear how it extend the ownership an exclusivity of the land in downward direction to the center to earth and into the sky. ***{As noted above, by the principle of prior claims, first use confers ownership of the previously unclaimed values that the use requires. Thus first use of a patch of land to, say, grow cotton, confers rights to the continued use the surface for such purposes, and limits but does not preclude the actions of any subsequent person who, for example, decides to tunnel beneath the property and build an underground apartment complex. How does the prior use of the surface to grow cotton limit the actions of others to tunnel beneath the property? Simple: it prevents them from doing anything that will substantially impede the growing of cotton (or other crops) on the surface. Those tunneling beneath the property, for example, cannot cause the surface to collapse, without being liable for damages. Bottom line: the principle of prior claims does *not* "extend the ownership and exclusivity of the land in a downward direction to the center of the earth and into the sky." It does, however, encumber the rights of later claimants, by requiring that they not interfere with the rights of prior claimants. --Mitchell Jones}*** >In other imprortant issue is use and consumption of other living beings by >us. All these beings have genetic designs in their DNA. These designs are >very complex and still can not be made by human capabilities. These >designs are required for their existence therefor we profit on them. Who >have the ownership of these designs? Not in a religious context., these >beings owns and share their genetic designs with others in the mechanism >of evolution. All these species had challenged with nature to carry their >design to future, that is their existence. These designs are their most >valuable possessions. Human existence require existence of other species, >from bacteria, grass, tress,crops and animals we consume. We profit from >them not because we possess them (even we farm them, we do not possess >their genetic designs), but we need them for to live. I think why justice >and rights should be based on necessities and "justifiable" criteria >rather than ownership. And most strong argument for justification is life. ***{I'm not sure what you are saying in the above, but if I were to guess, I would suppose that you are talking about "animal rights." If so, my response is that no creature can claim ownership of anything, if it does not respect the ownership rights of others. This applies regardless of whether the creature in question violates the ownership rights of others because he is intellectually incapable of comprehending where his rights end and others' rights begin, or because he simply does not choose to respect the rights of others. Either way, the creature in question assigns to himself the status of property, and is to be done with as his rightful owners, as determined by the principle of prior claims, decide. And, as usual, the actions of those owners are limited only by the necessity to respect the ownership rights of others. By virtue of this principle, it is OK to kill, injure, or confine an animal or a human in defense of persons or property, either in the heat of the moment or subsequent to a judicial procedure in which guilt has been ascertained on the basis of consideration of evidence. --MJ}*** >May you recall I had previously referenced this genetic design ownership >argument to integrate rights of other species than humans on our legal >system. This is an important arguments because we have already laws and >logic to protect designs like copyrights and patents. Even some biogenetic >research firms have patents of genetic material like mouses that are used >on experimenting human diseases on them. So it would not be hard >technically include natural designs and gene pools on our copyright >protecting system. ***{"Mouses"--i.e., mice--do not respect the ownership rights of humans, and, thus, they have no ownership rights themselves. Result: we can do with them as we will, subject only to the limitation that we do not violate any bona fide ownership rights when we do so. --MJ}*** >As mike stated ***{I have seen nothing from him on vortexb-l, which is the only vortex group from which I still receive messages. --MJ}*** , many communities and nations have very limited notion of ownership. They have not exclusivity over resources and rights and justice is not based on possession. From these facts I can deduce the ownership is not foundation of rights and justice but ownership is a product of rights according a specific agreement over communities. ***{If, as I believe, the principle of prior claims provides the *only* basis for settling disputes about property on the basis of reason, then the decisions of arbiters in nations which do not recognize that principle are unjust, and your assumption to the contrary is just that: an assumption. Here, therefore, is my question for you: by what criteria might an arbiter decide to override a provable prior claim, if he is committed to settling disputes on the basis of reason? --Mitchell Jones}*** [snip] >hamdi ucar ________________ Quote of the month: "The soldiers of militant Islam and Pan-Arabism do not hate the West because of Israel; they hate Israel because of the West. Zionism, to them, is an expression and representation of Western civilization." --Benjamin Netanyahu From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 1 04:32:46 2002 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id EAA00548; Tue, 1 Jan 2002 04:31:47 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2002 04:31:47 -0800 Message-ID: <3C31AA62.2AD38BC9@verisoft.com.tr> Date: Tue, 01 Jan 2002 14:24:02 +0200 From: hamdi ucar X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Foundation Of Justice References: <3C2711D5.17157B05@verisoft.com.tr> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"tc0ec.0.U8.pmQCy"@mx1> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/1526 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Mitchell Jones wrote: > > > > > >In other imprortant issue is use and consumption of other living beings by > >us. All these beings have genetic designs in their DNA. These designs are > >very complex and still can not be made by human capabilities. These > >designs are required for their existence therefor we profit on them. Who > >have the ownership of these designs? Not in a religious context., these > >beings owns and share their genetic designs with others in the mechanism > >of evolution. All these species had challenged with nature to carry their > >design to future, that is their existence. These designs are their most > >valuable possessions. Human existence require existence of other species, > >from bacteria, grass, tress,crops and animals we consume. We profit from > >them not because we possess them (even we farm them, we do not possess > >their genetic designs), but we need them for to live. I think why justice > >and rights should be based on necessities and "justifiable" criteria > >rather than ownership. And most strong argument for justification is life. > > ***{I'm not sure what you are saying in the above, but if I were to guess, > I would suppose that you are talking about "animal rights." If so, my > response is that no creature can claim ownership of anything, if it does > not respect the ownership rights of others. This applies regardless of > whether the creature in question violates the ownership rights of others > because he is intellectually incapable of comprehending where his rights > end and others' rights begin, or because he simply does not choose to > respect the rights of others. Either way, the creature in question assigns > to himself the status of property, and is to be done with as his rightful > owners, as determined by the principle of prior claims, decide. And, as > usual, the actions of those owners are limited only by the necessity to > respect the ownership rights of others. By virtue of this principle, it is > OK to kill, injure, or confine an animal or a human in defense of persons > or property, either in the heat of the moment or subsequent to a judicial > procedure in which guilt has been ascertained on the basis of consideration > of evidence. --MJ}*** I said: Who have the ownership of these design of DNA of every species? I tried to explain that these DNA designs are considered as intellectual property by the laws (in the case if an engineer makes a modification on a original DNA) This would automatically credit the original DNA design that its rights are naturally owned by the species that it DEVELOPED. This is not about animal rights. Any species primitive or advanced, are AWARE of the worth of this ownership, actually is the most precious property of the species. It is the aim of their existence. My question is valid because I think: 1) DNA or genetic design is considered intellectual property by laws. 2) They are carried by the beings that designed by this information. 3) Genetic design of species are developed the the species themselves by evolution. These are not arbitrary bunch of data, but developed in very painfully manner in the step of evolution. 4) Main reason of existence of species can be understand as to protect and further develop their genetic design. Further examination of behavior of species support the species are in consciousness of this possession. 5) Every species have a logic. These are not arbitrary behaving entities, their logic are mainly for their survival. These logic is same as humans makes define their rights for their survival. 6) Humans needs to benefit from existence of other species for their survival. 7) Rights of o species in our civil system is totally different from right of the genetic design of the species. For example a grain, or a crop have no right and function in our civil system but its genetic design have. It would not be a good argument to not respect genetic design rights of a crop because crop does not recognize or respect rights of others. > >May you recall I had previously referenced this genetic design ownership > >argument to integrate rights of other species than humans on our legal > >system. This is an important arguments because we have already laws and > >logic to protect designs like copyrights and patents. Even some biogenetic > >research firms have patents of genetic material like mouses that are used > >on experimenting human diseases on them. So it would not be hard > >technically include natural designs and gene pools on our copyright > >protecting system. > > ***{"Mouses"--i.e., mice--do not respect the ownership rights of humans, > and, thus, they have no ownership rights themselves. Result: we can do with > them as we will, subject only to the limitation that we do not violate any > bona fide ownership rights when we do so. --MJ}*** > The logic you use appears be basically incorrect. Humans, from historical perspective are not right respecting species. But as they civilized, they tried to constitute rules in order an authority (third party) could guard owned things of others. Scope of this mechanism is well determined. Authority will guard parties that only recognize the authority (by paying fees) Now you are defending an extended form of the above logic which exclude (rights and ownership of) other species by the argument that other species does not recognize this logic. This can only be understand as "discrimination". For example a community could decide not to recognize any rights of people born in saturdays, because people born is saturdays would not recognize this rule that strip their rights. Discrimination is the proof of that logic is not about respecting rights of others, but about a logic to NOT respect rights. Regards, hamdi ucar From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 1 04:46:10 2002 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id EAA03504; Tue, 1 Jan 2002 04:45:12 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2002 04:45:12 -0800 Sender: jack@mail3.centurytel.net Message-ID: <3C31AE8B.19959415@centurytel.net> Date: Tue, 01 Jan 2002 12:41:47 +0000 From: "Taylor J. Smith" X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-Caldera (X11; I; Linux 2.2.5-15 i486) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Foundation Of Justice References: <3C2711D5.17157B05@verisoft.com.tr> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; name="xm" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline; filename="xm" Resent-Message-ID: <"BgJF73.0.hs.OzQCy"@mx1> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/1527 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mitchell wrote: ... Since the person who creates a value is first user, he is the owner of the value which he created, and, since the mind of a child, by acts of will, causes the body of the child to take various actions in furtherance of its well being--swallowing food, defecating, avoiding danger, etc.--the mind or person that is the child becomes, with the passage of time, responsible for a greater and greater portion of the value of that body, and, thus, the owner of it. Thus despite the fact that, initially, the blob of embryonic protoplasm is clearly the exclusive property of the mother ... By such a process, the child acquires ownership of his body, and then, by using his body to create external values--e.g., building a fence, writing a symphony, working on a production line, etc. --he acquires property of the more usual sort. hamdi wrote: Obviously some other transfer mechanism are needed. As "rights" are bind to "possession" in your logic, transfer of rights should be considered. Should all rights allowed be transferred? These require further principles which can not be extracted from concept of ownership. Mitchell wrote: Transfer of ownership is implicit in the idea of ownership--i.e., in the idea that the owner can do with his property as he wishes, so long as he respects the rights of other owners to do likewise. Hi Mitchell, Do you think anyone is entitled to sell himself into slavery? Jack Smith From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 1 05:18:00 2002 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id FAA11981; Tue, 1 Jan 2002 05:17:26 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2002 05:17:26 -0800 Message-ID: <3C31B550.CAEE96E6@verisoft.com.tr> Date: Tue, 01 Jan 2002 15:10:40 +0200 From: hamdi ucar X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Foundation Of Justice References: <3C2711D5.17157B05@verisoft.com.tr> <3C31AE8B.19959415@centurytel.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"gR91u1.0.4x2.cRRCy"@mx1> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/1528 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: "Taylor J. Smith" wrote: > > > hamdi wrote: > > Obviously some other transfer mechanism are needed. As > "rights" are bind to "possession" in your logic, transfer > of rights should be considered. Should all rights allowed > be transferred? These require further principles which > can not be extracted from concept of ownership. > > Mitchell wrote: > > Transfer of ownership is implicit in the idea of > ownership--i.e., in the idea that the owner can do with > his property as he wishes, so long as he respects the > rights of other owners to do likewise. > > Hi Mitchell, > > Do you think anyone is entitled to sell himself into > slavery? > Yes! Men. :) > Jack Smith hamdi ucar From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 1 09:48:41 2002 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA07466; Tue, 1 Jan 2002 09:45:45 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2002 09:45:45 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones@pop.jump.net (Unverified) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <3C277D59.1F74F162@verisoft.com.tr> Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2002 11:44:20 -0600 To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: Foundation Of Justice: Community property Resent-Message-ID: <"Z3MwT1.0.bq1.9NVCy"@mx1> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/1529 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >Greetings again, Hamdi and Mitchell, > >Community property, such as 'rain' and air > might not be what you think they are. > >Rain falls on everyone, right ? >Air is a 'right', right ? >Not really. > >Consider what happens to the lazy bum who habitually steals > and consistently makes a nuisance of himself to others > aboard some distant space station. >Allergic to work, devout communist that he is, > he would, in short order find his 'right' to atmospheric > pressure suspended for a term long enough to ensure his > activities permanently cease. Ideally, his 'possessions' would then > be redistributed to those he had previously short-changed. ***{It depends on the specifics of the situation. Assume, for example, that Spaceport Inc. constructed, owns, and operates the station, and that the "bum" came aboard as an employee who agreed to perform some task--e.g., computer programming--in return for some specific salary plus room and board. In that case, "room and board" obviously includes air to breathe, and, if he fails to do the job he contracted to do, and is fired, he can be ordered off of the station. If, however, the company elects to simply eject him into space, a neutral, reasoning arbiter would find them guilty of murder. The reason: standard conditions are assumed unless it is explicitly stated otherwise, and, obviously, if it had been explicitly stated in the contract that a bad performance evaluation would result in the employee being ejected into space, nobody in his right mind would have taken the job. --MJ}*** >Does your 'right' to air mean that you have the 'right' > to steal the oxygen from it, to pollute it with CO, CO2, etc. > and make it difficult for others to breathe ? ***{Again, it depends on the specifics. Suppose, for example, that you find a previously uninhabited island, hire 1000 workers with the understanding that if they become dissatisfied with the environmental conditions on the island, their only recourse is to move elsewhere, and with their assistance you build a large refinery and begin shipping in large amounts of crude oil and shipping out large amounts of refined products. In that case, because a thriving community has been established on the island, it is predictable that others will come to the island to work as auto mechanics, carpenters, electricians, grocers, etc., serving the various needs of the refinery and its personnel. Result: at some future date, those latecomers may decide that they don't like the breathing conditions on the island, and begin to demand that you, the refinery owner, spend millions to install pollution abatement equipment. If the question goes before a neutral, reasoning arbiter, how will he decide? The answer: you, the owner of the refinery, hold the prior claim to the land on which your plant is sited, to the inputs of atmospheric gases that are required to operate it, and to the discharges of effluents that are required as well. They, as late comers, cannot encumber those rights: you were there first. Your claim--the prior claim--encumbers their rights, rather than the other way around. That means you can continue to operate, after they are there, in the same way that you operated *before* they were there, and, in reason, there isn't a damn thing they can do about it. If they don't like the situation, they can leave. --MJ}*** >Rain should fall where it will, and air should follow the wind. >Whatever you do to it while in your 'domain' is > then a chargeable cost you owe the community, > however you wish to measure it. ***{A "community" is just a group of individuals, and has no rights not possessed by the individuals that comprise it. (This is known as "the principle of individual rights.") If those individuals arrived after the refinery was in operation, their rights were encumbered by the rights of the refinery owners, and thus the rights of any "community" which they form are also similarly encumbered. --MJ}*** >Why should the community be compensated ? Because the resources > you use are then no longer available to the rest of the community, > be they downwind, downriver, or whatever. ***{They never were available, in the circumstance described above, because the refinery came first. It is only if the "community"--i.e., the individuals--came first, that their rights would encumber those of the refinery owners. That's why, if justice is to be done, the arbiter's first task is to determine who holds the prior claim. --MJ}*** >The community is a framework that defines the boundaries of property. ***{The boundaries of property can be determined in one way, and in one way only: by determining who holds the prior claim, in each of the instances where rights are in dispute. --MJ}*** >It is not some 'higher authority' that needs to be worshipped, > as communists do, nor does it have pre-emptive say, > as most governments prescribe. > It is simply the collection of individuals that > share a common resource such as an atmosphere, or river drainage. ***{It is erroneous to suppose that such things as air, water, the airwaves, fishing rights, water rights, etc., are "community property," or that they are in some sense intrinsically "unowned." An analysis based on the principle of prior claims will, in each case that is disputed, reveal the true owners, and the boundaries demarcating their ownership. --MJ}*** >............... >As to DNA and other 'designs' >I regard 'design protection' >- and anything else regarding intellectual property - > as being at least unenforcable and > moreso a complete waste of time and community resources. >On this side of the planet are good examples > of what a waste of time it is. >Consider a Galactic Empire > with millions of little bespectacled green-skinned accountant-types > zooming through zillions of cubic light-years trying to enforce > intellectual protection on DNA - what if it's your DNA ? > - do you then need to be terminated because some holo-hero > on the other side of the galaxy designed a DNA- baby for his wife > and got court-protection that it would never be duplicated > - years before you were born? > Absurdities are born at relativistic velocities... > >If you design it -!- build, or sell it, > or form partnership with someone who can. >Don't waste taxpayer dollars trying to enforce the unenforceable. ***{By the principle of prior claims, first use confers ownership. Result: each person acquires the ownership of his own DNA--i.e., the physical DNA material in his body--in the same way that he acquires ownership of his body. (See my earlier response to Hamdi on this topic.) As far as the right to *publish* DNA, that would fall to the first person to sequence it, in the same way that the right to publish a book falls to the author. Concerning the right to biologically reproduce a plant or an animal having a specific genetic makeup, that would fall to the owner of that plant or animal. In the case of sentient beings--e.g., humans--self-ownership confers the right to biologically reproduce (given the voluntary consent of the oppositely sexed partner, of course). --MJ}*** >=====afterthought------ >The 'Greenies' are fond of reciting that the Earth surface > is 75% water covered > - a prime component of our environmental balancesheet. > >I would rather point out that the Universe we know about > is primarily a radiation-poisoned near-vacuum, and that any environmental > balancesheet begins there, > not from a basis of abundant air and water. > >----followon: >Our inheritance is primarily that our ancestors had the good sense > to settle on this planet, ensuring we had abundant air, water, etc. >We should regard this as an inheritance, and not squander it. > >cheers >Paul ________________ Quote of the month: "The soldiers of militant Islam and Pan-Arabism do not hate the West because of Israel; they hate Israel because of the West. Zionism, to them, is an expression and representation of Western civilization." --Benjamin Netanyahu From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 1 10:33:30 2002 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA20272; Tue, 1 Jan 2002 10:22:47 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2002 10:22:47 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones@pop.jump.net (Unverified) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3C31AE8B.19959415@centurytel.net> References: <3C2711D5.17157B05@verisoft.com.tr> Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2002 12:19:52 -0600 To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: Foundation Of Justice Resent-Message-ID: <"ZIPoG1.0.gy4.tvVCy"@mx1> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/1530 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >Mitchell wrote: > >... Since the person who creates a value is first user, >he is the owner of the value which he created, and, >since the mind of a child, by acts of will, causes the >body of the child to take various actions in furtherance >of its well being--swallowing food, defecating, avoiding >danger, etc.--the mind or person that is the child becomes, >with the passage of time, responsible for a greater and >greater portion of the value of that body, and, thus, >the owner of it. Thus despite the fact that, initially, >the blob of embryonic protoplasm is clearly the exclusive >property of the mother ... > >By such a process, the child acquires ownership of his >body, and then, by using his body to create external >values--e.g., building a fence, writing a symphony, working >on a production line, etc. --he acquires property of the >more usual sort. > >hamdi wrote: > >Obviously some other transfer mechanism are needed. As >"rights" are bind to "possession" in your logic, transfer >of rights should be considered. Should all rights allowed >be transferred? These require further principles which >can not be extracted from concept of ownership. > >Mitchell wrote: > >Transfer of ownership is implicit in the idea of >ownership--i.e., in the idea that the owner can do with >his property as he wishes, so long as he respects the >rights of other owners to do likewise. > >Hi Mitchell, > >Do you think anyone is entitled to sell himself into >slavery? ***{If, in return for a payment, a person agrees to obey someone else's orders for the rest of his life, I have no problem with that--providing, of course, that if he at some point decides to no longer obey the other person's orders, the resulting dispute over property will go to a neutral arbiter. After all, a neutral arbiter will obviously treat such a dispute as a case of breach of contract--which means: he will merely order the "slave" to return a pro rated portion of the payment, depending on how long he complied with the contract. The implication: in a system where disputes are decided by neutral, reasoning arbiters, "slavery" is just a word. --MJ}*** >Jack Smith ________________ Quote of the month: "The soldiers of militant Islam and Pan-Arabism do not hate the West because of Israel; they hate Israel because of the West. Zionism, to them, is an expression and representation of Western civilization." --Benjamin Netanyahu From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jan 2 07:19:07 2002 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA23220; Wed, 2 Jan 2002 07:08:09 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2002 07:08:09 -0800 Sender: jack@mail3.centurytel.net Message-ID: <3C332188.17FF0356@centurytel.net> Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2002 15:04:40 +0000 From: "Taylor J. Smith" X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-Caldera (X11; I; Linux 2.2.5-15 i486) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Foundation Of Justice References: <3C2711D5.17157B05@verisoft.com.tr> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; name="xm" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline; filename="xm" Resent-Message-ID: <"lacVY2.0.lg5.P9oCy"@mx1> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/1531 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jack wrote: Do you think anyone is entitled to sell himself into slavery? Mitchell wrote: If, in return for a payment, a person agrees to obey someone else's orders for the rest of his life, I have no problem with that --providing, of course, that if he at some point decides to no longer obey the other person's orders ... Hi Mitchell, I should have asked, "Do you think anyone is entitled to IRREVOCABLY sell himself into slavery?" Jack Smith From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jan 2 15:33:59 2002 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA02305; Wed, 2 Jan 2002 15:32:17 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2002 15:32:17 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones@pop.jump.net (Unverified) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3C332188.17FF0356@centurytel.net> References: <3C2711D5.17157B05@verisoft.com.tr> Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2002 17:30:00 -0600 To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: Foundation Of Justice Resent-Message-ID: <"A8f6Y2.0.tZ.0YvCy"@mx1> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/1532 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >Jack wrote: > >Do you think anyone is entitled to sell himself into >slavery? > >Mitchell wrote: > >If, in return for a payment, a person agrees to obey someone else's >orders for the rest of his life, I have no problem with that >--providing, of course, that if he at some point decides to no >longer obey the other person's orders ... > >Hi Mitchell, > >I should have asked, "Do you think anyone is entitled to >IRREVOCABLY sell himself into slavery?" ***{Objectively, a criminal is a person who attempts the unilateral settlement of a dispute over property. Result: if a person breaches a contract, thereby giving rise to a dispute over property, and the other party to the dispute acts unilaterally to achieve the outcome he desires, he becomes a criminal. Result: if you sell yourself into slavery and, subsequently, decide to no longer abide by the contract, your "master" must take the resulting dispute before a neutral arbiter. If, instead, he attempts to settle it himself--e.g., by beating you with a bullwhip until you agree to resume obeying his orders--he becomes a criminal. Bottom line: my entire political position rests on one premise: that disputes over property ought to be taken before neutral arbiters, and that anyone who attempts to settle such a dispute by other means is a criminal. Within such a system, no contract can ever be irrevocable, because if one of the parties ceases to perform, a dispute arises that must be settled by arbitration, and the decision of the arbiter, once made, will replace, nullify, and supercede the contract. --Mitchell Jones}*** >Jack Smith ________________ Quote of the month: "The soldiers of militant Islam and Pan-Arabism do not hate the West because of Israel; they hate Israel because of the West. Zionism, to them, is an expression and representation of Western civilization." --Benjamin Netanyahu From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Jan 3 06:48:35 2002 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id GAA07441; Thu, 3 Jan 2002 06:45:27 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2002 06:45:27 -0800 Sender: jack@mail3.centurytel.net Message-ID: <3C346DBB.1F7431EF@centurytel.net> Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2002 14:42:03 +0000 From: "Taylor J. Smith" X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-Caldera (X11; I; Linux 2.2.5-15 i486) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Foundation Of Justice References: <3C2711D5.17157B05@verisoft.com.tr> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; name="xm" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline; filename="xm" Resent-Message-ID: <"sS_TA.0.Aq1.7w6Dy"@mx1> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/1533 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jack wrote: Do you think anyone is entitled to IRREVOCABLY sell himself into slavery? Mitchell wrote: Bottom line: my entire political position rests on one premise: that disputes over property ought to be taken before neutral arbiters, and that anyone who attempts to settle such a dispute by other means is a criminal. Within such a system, NO CONTRACT CAN EVER BE IRREVOCABLE, because if one of the parties ceases to perform, a dispute arises that must be settled by arbitration, and the decision of the arbiter, once made, will replace, nullify, and supercede the contract. Hi Mitchell, Under American law, a contract can be irrevocable, whether it should be or not. In fact, given the human frailty of arbitrators and the power of owners, even the vilest contracts could be irrevocable, as a practical matter. I take the position that it is fundemental to justice that certain contracts must be prohibited, in particular those that alienate certain inalienable rights such a "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness." Attempts to impose such contracts on us by rackteers (the mob that ruled Russia known as Communists comes to mind) must be resisted by every possible means, even against the will of those who would sell themselves for a mess of pottage. I think that no human law or constitution, enforced by humans, is incorruptible; and so we must be eternally vigilent. Jack Smith From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Jan 3 07:43:30 2002 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA31382; Thu, 3 Jan 2002 07:40:26 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2002 07:40:26 -0800 From: "xplorer" To: Subject: RE: Foundation Of Justice Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2002 22:44:37 +0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 In-Reply-To: <3C346DBB.1F7431EF@centurytel.net> Resent-Message-ID: <"URp8q1.0.Cg7.gj7Dy"@mx1> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/1534 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: That's well said: > -----Original Message----- > From: jack@mail3.centurytel.net [mailto:jack@mail3.centurytel.net]On > Behalf Of Taylor J. Smith > Sent: 2002 January 03 Thursday 21:42 > To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com > Subject: Re: Foundation Of Justice > >*< > > I think that no human law or constitution, enforced by humans, > is incorruptible; and so we must be eternally vigilent. > > Jack Smith From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Jan 4 09:33:00 2002 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA23012; Fri, 4 Jan 2002 09:29:15 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2002 09:29:15 -0800 (PST) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones@pop.jump.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3C346DBB.1F7431EF@centurytel.net> References: <3C2711D5.17157B05@verisoft.com.tr> Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2002 11:22:41 -0600 To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: Foundation Of Justice Resent-Message-ID: <"kpzib2.0.Rd5.fPUDy"@mx2> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/1535 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >Jack wrote: > >Do you think anyone is entitled to >IRREVOCABLY sell himself into slavery? > >Mitchell wrote: > >Bottom line: my entire political position rests on one >premise: that disputes over property ought to be taken >before neutral arbiters, and that anyone who attempts >to settle such a dispute by other means is a criminal. >Within such a system, NO CONTRACT CAN EVER BE IRREVOCABLE, >because if one of the parties ceases to perform, a >dispute arises that must be settled by arbitration, and >the decision of the arbiter, once made, will replace, >nullify, and supercede the contract. > >Hi Mitchell, > >Under American law, a contract can be irrevocable, whether >it should be or not. ***{Where is the surprise? The entire purpose of man-made law is to preordain the outcome of juridical procedures, by ordering the decision makers to conform to criteria that, more often than not, have nothing to do with reason or fair play. To put the matter simply, it is not the contracts that are irrevocable, in such cases, but the dictates of man-made law. --MJ}*** In fact, given the human frailty of >arbitrators ***{The possibility human error exists under any system. Irrevocability of contract, however, exists as a practical matter only within systems in which man-made law prescribes criminal penalties for breach of contract. No such penalties have ever, in recorded history, been invoked as the standard solution to such disputes within the context of a purely private arbitration system. Even as far back as the so called "heroic age," as attested to by the various writings of Homer, private arbiters have handed down civil penalties--which means: they have required the payment of suitable monetary compensation--in response to breaches of contract. Indeed, private arbiters during those times, in cases where a death resulted from a "fair fight" (rather than, for example, the deliberate poisoning of food, bushwhacking, stabbing in the back, etc.) generally ordered the payment of compensation *or* the turning of the miscreant over to the relatives of the victim, as the penalty for homicide. The same was true of private arbitors during the time of the Roman Republic (who were known as "jurisconsults"), as well as by the English Common Law courts during the reign of Henry II and in the times immediately following his reign, when the proceedings were mostly unobstructed by the dictates of statutory law. Why has this been the case? The answer: because, in reason, breach of contract is not, in fact, a threat to the life or liberty of the aggrieved party, and any neutral third party who is sincerely attempting to find a reasonable solution to the dispute can see that. Result: the decisions of private arbiters, unconstrained by politics, will in virtually all cases be to order that reasonable monetary compensation be paid. When that is not, in fact, the outcome, it is because there was something about the particulars of the case which *was* a direct and unarguable threat to someone's life or liberty, or because political authorities, via man-made law, intervened to require a decision that was unreasonable and unfair. --MJ}*** and the power of owners ***{Owners may have the "power" to influence political authorities, either by means of bribes, personal relationships, blackmail, campaign contributions, the ability to influence the votes of employees, etc., but they have no power whatever to influence the deliberations of a private arbiter who has been selected by a neutral winnowing process, as defined below. The point: man-made law is the source of the bad effects that you are worrying about, rather than the cure for them. --MJ}*** , even the vilest contracts >could be irrevocable, as a practical matter. ***{Given the influence of a sovereign power on the juridical process, via man-made law, such outcomes are to be expected. My reference, however, was to a neutral arbiter, not to an "arbitrator" selected within the constraints of a man-made legal system--which means: I am talking about a person selected *by the disputants themselves*, according to a winnowing process designed to find the best possible approximation to a neutral, reasoning arbiter. To refresh your memory (I have described this procedure on vortex before), here is the way it works: (1) You publish a description of the dispute in a venue likely to come to the attention of would-be arbiters, asking for those who are willing to adjudicate the case to submit their names by some deadline, say after a month has passed. (2) You make a list of all the names submitted. (3) The parties to the dispute have a reasonable time period for doing research into the backgrounds of the persons whose names are on the list. (4) After the allotted time has elapsed, the disputants each strike one third of the names off the list, rounded to the nearest whole number. (5) Step (3) and then step (4) are repeated as many times as necessary to reduce the number of names on the list to one. (6) The single arbiter who remains at the end of the process is the person selected to adjudicate the case. By this procedure, any person with the slightest blemish on his reputation for fairness will be almost invariably eliminated from the list, by one party or the other, and as a result the only persons who will be able to earn a living as arbiters will be those who establish, and maintain, the highest standards of objectivity and fair play. It is my contention that decisions made according to such procedures offer, by far, the best hope of reasoned justice, and I see it as entirely non-coincidental that the Greek, Roman, and English civilizations all arose during times when disputes were for the most part settled in this way. --Mitchell Jones}*** >I take the position that it is fundemental to justice that >certain contracts must be prohibited ***{Prohibited by what? The apparent answer: by man-made law. The implication: you believe that government should be empowered to preordain the outcomes of disputes over property, despite the palpably obvious fact, demonstrated throughout human history, that it is precisely the interventions of the sovereign power, via kings or legislatures, into judicial procedures, which has supported the irrevocability of onerous "contractual" conditions in the first place. Well, I too am opposed to the various forms of slavery that are implicit in irrevocable contracts, but my solution is different. I see *man-made law*--which means: the power of governmental authorities to intervene in private arbitration--as the source of the problem, and I see a very simple solution: the submission of disputes over property to neutral arbiters ought to be a requirement of citizenship, and it ought to be openly acknowledged that those who attempt the unilateral settlement of disputes over property, including governments who attempt to force private arbiters to decide cases according to rules based on political expediency, are simply criminals. --Mitchell Jones}*** , in particular those that >alienate certain inalienable rights such a "life, liberty, and >the pursuit of happiness." ***{Such rights are based on reason and the principle of prior claims, and, historically, were *discovered* by neutral arbiters, during the times when their deliberations were unencumbered by the dictates of politics. It is their deliberations that are the *source* of our heritage of freedom, Jack. Without them, we would be nothing more than spear-toting savages hunkered over campfires, living short and miserable lives. The notion that political authorities, who are manifestly *not* neutral in their deliberations, ought to be empowered to set standards for those who gave us our heritage of freedom, is insufferable, ludicrous nonsense. All that is needed to promote justice is to ensure that disputes over property are adjudicated by neutral arbiters--which means: arbiters selected by means of a neutral winnowing process,who are *not* subject to the biasing influences of man-made law. --MJ}*** Attempts to impose such contracts >on us by rackteers (the mob that ruled Russia known as >Communists comes to mind) must be resisted by every possible >means, even against the will of those who would sell themselves >for a mess of pottage. > >I think that no human law or constitution, enforced by humans, >is incorruptible; and so we must be eternally vigilent. ***{The power of political authorities to make law lies at the root of all of these problems, and they will not be solved until that power is abolished. Any calls for political action or for vigilance which do not recognize that fact will be useless and pointless. Nobody ever solved a problem by denying that it existed. --MJ}*** >Jack Smith ________________ Quote of the month: "The soldiers of militant Islam and Pan-Arabism do not hate the West because of Israel; they hate Israel because of the West. Zionism, to them, is an expression and representation of Western civilization." --Benjamin Netanyahu From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Jan 4 10:27:32 2002 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA27827; Fri, 4 Jan 2002 10:26:06 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2002 10:26:06 -0800 (PST) Sender: jack@mail3.centurytel.net Message-ID: <3C35F1C9.1C2EC2B3@centurytel.net> Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2002 18:17:45 +0000 From: "Taylor J. Smith" X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-Caldera (X11; I; Linux 2.2.5-15 i486) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Foundation Of Justice References: <3C2711D5.17157B05@verisoft.com.tr> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; name="xm" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline; filename="xm" Resent-Message-ID: <"bBcoS1.0.jo6.zEVDy"@mx2> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/1536 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mitchell wrote: The power of political authorities to make law lies at the root of all of these problems, and they will not be solved until that power is abolished. Hi Mitchell, How do you propose to abolish the power of political authorities? I think the best we can do is limit their power. Ben Franklin was probably right when he said the only certainties were death and taxes. Jack Smith From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Jan 4 15:15:44 2002 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA25570; Fri, 4 Jan 2002 15:14:23 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2002 15:14:23 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones@pop.jump.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3C35F1C9.1C2EC2B3@centurytel.net> References: <3C2711D5.17157B05@verisoft.com.tr> Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2002 17:13:00 -0600 To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: Foundation Of Justice Resent-Message-ID: <"KnQQI3.0.RF6.FTZDy"@mx1> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/1537 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >Mitchell wrote: > >The power of political authorities to make law lies at the root of all >of these problems, and they will not be solved until that power is >abolished. > >Hi Mitchell, > >How do you propose to abolish the power of political >authorities? ***{I see two possibilities: (1) Someone might discover a new, high-density energy source similar to nuclear fission, but which used readily available fuels (e.g., hydrogen) and which technically competent individuals could implement on a homebrew basis. If that were to happen, then such individuals could move underground, under the ice caps, under the seas, or into space, and live out of sight and out of mind of those unwilling to live and let live. Under such conditions, it would be a simple matter to set up governments which lacked legislative authority, and were constitutionally bound to simply enforce the judgments of neutral arbiters. (2) Another possibility would be the passage of an international treaty giving defendants in every nation the right, but not the obligation, to transfer their cases out of their domestic courts, and into UN courts. If that happened, then UN courts would immediately have an incentive to deliver a better form of justice than that available in the member nations, because if they did so, they would gain more customers, be able to justify larger staffs, bigger budgets, higher salaries, etc. That means they would see themselves as competing with courts in member nations, and, to compete effectively, they would be forced to progressively embrace the principles of reasoned justice. If that happened, the U.N. would become a world government and in the process would drive the world economy into the greatest technological boom in history. At some point in that boom, (1) would certainly occur, and when that happened, the role of state power in human affairs would be over. How do I know it would work out that way? Because it has happened before. King Henry II of England, by virtue of his Grand Decree and a series of associated decrees, created a system of Royal Courts, and gave English defendants the option of switching their cases from the existing Medieval Courts into the Royal Courts. The resulting judicial competition created what came to be known as "English Common Law," unleashed the greatest technological boom in world history thus far, and became the driving force behind the Rise of the West. (For the details, see my book, *The Dogs of Capitalism*.) --Mitchell Jones}*** I think the best we can do is limit their >power. Ben Franklin was probably right when he said the >only certainties were death and taxes. > >Jack Smith ________________ Quote of the month: "The soldiers of militant Islam and Pan-Arabism do not hate the West because of Israel; they hate Israel because of the West. Zionism, to them, is an expression and representation of Western civilization." --Benjamin Netanyahu From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Jan 4 21:58:11 2002 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id VAA16054; Fri, 4 Jan 2002 21:57:11 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2002 21:57:11 -0800 From: "xplorer" To: Subject: RE: Foundation Of Justice [law making quote] Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2002 13:01:03 +0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <3C35F1C9.1C2EC2B3@centurytel.net> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Resent-Message-ID: <"S04n81.0.Hw3.rMfDy"@mx1> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/1538 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Another outstanding observation: > -----Original Message----- > From: jack@mail3.centurytel.net [mailto:jack@mail3.centurytel.net]On > Behalf Of Taylor J. Smith > Sent: 2002 January 05 Saturday 01:18 > To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com > Subject: Re: Foundation Of Justice > > > > Mitchell wrote: > > The power of political authorities to make law lies at the root of all > of these problems, and they will not be solved until that power is > abolished. > > Hi Mitchell, > > How do you propose to abolish the power of political > authorities? You don't abolish it - you put a lid on it. You limit the ability of your government to generic principle laws, dis-allowing any new laws without the abolition of a previous one. You limit the scope of any law to a specific activity or attribute. From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Jan 5 05:54:14 2002 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id FAA26032; Sat, 5 Jan 2002 05:53:23 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2002 05:53:23 -0800 Sender: jack@mail3.centurytel.net Message-ID: <3C370486.4F8C5E82@centurytel.net> Date: Sat, 05 Jan 2002 13:49:58 +0000 From: "Taylor J. Smith" X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-Caldera (X11; I; Linux 2.2.5-15 i486) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Foundation Of Justice References: <3C2711D5.17157B05@verisoft.com.tr> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; name="xm" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline; filename="xm" Resent-Message-ID: <"HCwk81.0.hM6.JLmDy"@mx1> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/1539 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jack wrote: How do you propose to abolish the power of political authorities? Mitchell wrote: I see two possibilities: (1) ... set up governments which lacked legislative authority, and were constitutionally bound to simply enforce the judgments of neutral arbiters. (2) Another possibility would be the passage of an international treaty giving defendants in every nation the right, but not the obligation, to transfer their cases out of their domestic courts, and into UN courts. If that happened, then UN courts would immediately have an incentive to deliver a better form of justice than that available in the member nations, because if they did so, they would gain more customers, be able to justify larger staffs ... If that happened, the U.N. would become a world government and in the process would drive the world economy into the greatest technological boom in history. At some point in that boom, (1) would certainly occur, and when that happened, the role of state power in human affairs would be over ... (For the details, see my book, *The Dogs of Capitalism*.) Hi Mitchell, Setting up governments WHICH LACK LEGISLATIVE AUTHORITY is another of your excellent ideas; and it certainly makes sense as a (if not THE) foundation of justice. But we still have the problem of the power of existing political leaders, which they will not relinquish unless compelled to do so, such "compellers" being strongly tempted to seize power for themselves ("the more things change, the more they stay the same"). UN courts may be the last hope of humanity (I just finished reading "Germs ..." by Judith Miller et al.), but the UN seems to be more and more politicized. The promise of technology should be an incentive, but it is an observable fact that man does not live (and die) by bread alone; and, thus, the mullahs will always be with us. What practical steps do you suggest? By the way, how do I order The Dogs of Capitalism? Jack Smith From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Jan 5 08:09:59 2002 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA15437; Sat, 5 Jan 2002 08:08:42 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2002 08:08:42 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones@pop.jump.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3C370486.4F8C5E82@centurytel.net> References: <3C2711D5.17157B05@verisoft.com.tr> Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2002 10:06:18 -0600 To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: Foundation Of Justice Resent-Message-ID: <"kud6W2.0.8n3.AKoDy"@mx1> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/1540 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >Jack wrote: > >How do you propose to abolish the power of political >authorities? > >Mitchell wrote: > >I see two possibilities: > >(1) ... set up governments which >lacked legislative authority, and were constitutionally >bound to simply enforce the judgments of neutral arbiters. > >(2) Another possibility would be the passage of an >international treaty giving defendants in every nation the >right, but not the obligation, to transfer their cases >out of their domestic courts, and into UN courts. If >that happened, then UN courts would immediately have an >incentive to deliver a better form of justice than that >available in the member nations, because if they did so, >they would gain more customers, be able to justify larger >staffs ... > >If that happened, the U.N. would become a world >government and in the process would drive the world economy >into the greatest technological boom in history. At some >point in that boom, (1) would certainly occur, and when >that happened, the role of state power in human affairs >would be over ... > >(For the details, see my book, *The Dogs of Capitalism*.) > >Hi Mitchell, > >Setting up governments WHICH LACK LEGISLATIVE AUTHORITY >is another of your excellent ideas; and it certainly makes >sense as a (if not THE) foundation of justice. > >But we still have the problem of the power of existing >political leaders, which they will not relinquish unless >compelled to do so, such "compellers" being strongly >tempted to seize power for themselves ("the more things >change, the more they stay the same"). ***{Attempts at violent resistance, in the existing and foreseeable context, are pointless, hopeless, and counterproductive. (Violence merely provides excuses for the authorities to take away more of our rights--which means: it serves their interests, not ours.) The only worthwhile things that individuals can do are (a) resist the social pressures to conform, by struggling to see the world as it really is, and (b) give moral and financial support to ventures that, if successful, will result in real improvement. For example, either do research into new energy sources yourself, or provide assistance to others who are doing so. Or, again, promote the *option* (and oppose the requirement), for defendants in member states of the UN, to transfer their cases into UN courts. (If enacted as an option and not a requirement, this measure would be beneficial to everyone; if passed as a requirement, it would be tantamount to the imposition of a global dictatorship, and would be an unmitigated disaster. Fortunately, virtually none of the member states are going to be willing to surrender their sovereignty to the UN on quite so blatant a basis, so as a practical matter such a rule is only feasible as an option.) --MJ}*** >UN courts may be the last hope of humanity (I just finished >reading "Germs ..." by Judith Miller et al.), but the UN >seems to be more and more politicized. ***{While I consider the UN as presently constituted to be a force for evil, I also recognize that, with a tweak here and there, that could change. And since the chances of abolishing the UN are exceedingly dim, while the chance of the proper tweak taking place is good, the prudent course would seem to be in the latter direction. I would emphasize, however, that if this course is implemented--i.e., if defendants in member states are allowed, but not required, to transfer their cases into UN courts--the effect will be to set in motion a slow, evolutionary process of change. The benefits of that process will be manifest in the "third world" first, because it will be in those areas that UN courts, as presently constituted, will be superior to local courts. Thus it will be defendants in the various hell holes of the world who will see it to be in their interest to transfer their cases. Defendants in the Western nations, where judicial procedures are as a rule *more* reasonable than in the UN courts, will *not*, save in exceptional circumstances, make use of such an option. To appeal to defendants in the advanced nations, in other words, the UN courts will have to move quite a long distance from their present position, and embrace property rights in a far more thoroughgoing manner than they presently do. That process is likely to take hundreds of years--which means: it will be of little or no benefit to the citizens of Western nations who are living today. Bottom line: don't invest a lot of time or resources crusading for these sorts of changes in the UN. Keep your eye on the ball: new energy research. That's where freedom is going to come from, if it comes in our lifetimes. --Mitchell Jones}*** The promise of >technology should be an incentive, but it is an observable >fact that man does not live (and die) by bread alone; and, thus, >the mullahs will always be with us. What practical steps >do you suggest? ***{See above. --MJ}*** >By the way, how do I order The Dogs of Capitalism? ***{It is a quality hardback, 336 pages, 44 illustrations. The price is $19.95 postpaid to any address in the U.S. Send the payment plus your mailing address to: 21st Century Logic 100 E. Whitestone #148-329 Cedar Park, TX 78613 --Mitchell Jones}*** >Jack Smith ________________ Quote of the month: "The soldiers of militant Islam and Pan-Arabism do not hate the West because of Israel; they hate Israel because of the West. Zionism, to them, is an expression and representation of Western civilization." --Benjamin Netanyahu From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Jan 24 18:20:40 2002 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA28174; Thu, 24 Jan 2002 18:19:30 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 18:19:30 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones@pop.jump.net Message-Id: Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 20:16:04 -0600 To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Humor Resent-Message-ID: <"bK6833.0.4u6.n2CKy"@mx1> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/1541 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: List of new Afghani town names: Bom Zlandid Hau Sizirgon Kam El Zarostin Mitur Ben Zaburnin Miwyv Zargon Dikshezad Rupin Wata Mezdiziz Wadi El Apend Izalovr Bu Tashotin Watwazoza Matinkin ________________ Quote of the month: "The soldiers of militant Islam and Pan-Arabism do not hate the West because of Israel; they hate Israel because of the West. Zionism, to them, is an expression and representation of Western civilization." --Benjamin Netanyahu From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Jan 25 03:31:12 2002 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id DAA28226; Fri, 25 Jan 2002 03:29:49 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2002 03:29:49 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: smtp1.ihug.co.nz: Host p484-apx1.akl.ihug.co.nz [203.173.193.230] claimed to be ihug.co.nz Message-ID: <3C5141AD.9CB277B2@ihug.co.nz> Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2002 00:29:49 +1300 From: John Berry X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Humor References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"lnC-b1.0.vu6.j6KKy"@mx1> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/1542 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Mitchell Jones wrote: > List of new Afghani town names: > > Bom Zlandid Bomb'z landed? > > Hau Sizirgon House is gone? > > Kam El Zarostin Camel something? > > Mitur Ben Zaburnin My town's been burning??? > > Miwyv Zargon My Wives gone? > > Dikshezad Rupin ? > > Wata Mezdiziz ? > > Wadi El Apend ? > > Izalovr Bu Tashotin Is a Lover but a shooting??? > > Watwazoza Matinkin ? > > ________________ > Quote of the month: > > "The soldiers of militant Islam and Pan-Arabism do not hate the West > because of Israel; they hate Israel because of the West. Zionism, to them, > is an expression and representation of Western civilization." --Benjamin > Netanyahu From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Jan 25 11:01:35 2002 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA07291; Fri, 25 Jan 2002 10:59:53 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2002 10:59:53 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones@pop.jump.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3C5141AD.9CB277B2@ihug.co.nz> References: Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2002 12:55:23 -0600 To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: Humor Resent-Message-ID: <"GsAmI1.0.qn1.fiQKy"@mx1> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/1543 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: ***{Hi John. Sorry for inflicting cryptic humor on the list. A guy sent me an e-mail based on the idea, and I pretty much tossed out his examples and made up my own. In the process, the degree of difficulty got too high for humor, I'm afraid. :-( --MJ}*** >Mitchell Jones wrote: > >> List of new Afghani town names: >> >> Bom Zlandid > >Bomb'z landed? ***{Yup. --MJ}*** >> >> Hau Sizirgon > >House is gone? ***{Houses are gone. --MJ}*** >> >> Kam El Zarostin > >Camel something? ***{Camels a-roastin. --MJ}*** >> >> Mitur Ben Zaburnin > >My town's been burning??? ***{My turbans a-burnin. --MJ}*** >> >> Miwyv Zargon > >My Wives gone? ***{My wives are gone. --MJ}*** >> >> Dikshezad Rupin ***{Dick she's a-droopin. --MJ}*** >> >> Wata Mezdiziz ***{What a mess this is. --MJ}*** >> >> Wadi El Apend ***{What the hell happened? --MJ}*** >> >> Izalovr Bu Tashotin > >Is a Lover but a shooting??? ***{It's all over but the shouting. --MJ}*** >> >> Watwazoza Matinkin ***{What was Osama thinking? --MJ}*** ________________ Quote of the month: "The soldiers of militant Islam and Pan-Arabism do not hate the West because of Israel; they hate Israel because of the West. Zionism, to them, is an expression and representation of Western civilization." --Benjamin Netanyahu From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Feb 8 09:40:33 2002 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA24299; Fri, 8 Feb 2002 09:36:59 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 09:36:59 -0800 Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20020208123626.03a6d590@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2002 12:37:04 -0500 To: vortexB-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Axis of Evil Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"k_AAR2.0.Yx5.xo0Py"@mx1> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/1544 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Bitter after being snubbed for membership in the "Axis of Evil," Libya, China, and Syria today announced they had formed the "Axis of Just as Evil," which they said would be way eviler than that stupid Iran-Iraq-North Korea axis President Bush warned of his State of the union address. Axis of Evil members, however, immediately dismissed the new axis as having, for starters, a really dumb name. "Right. They are Just as Evil... in their dreams!" declared North Korean leader Kim Jong-il. "Everybody knows we're the best evils... best at being evil... we're the best." Diplomats from Syria denied they were jealous over being excluded, although they conceded they did ask if they could join the Axis of Evil. "They told us it was full," said Syrian President Bashar al-Assad. "An Axis can't have more than three countries," explained Iraqi President Saddam Hussein. "This is not my rule, it's tradition. In World War II you had Germany, Italy, and Japan in the evil Axis. So you can only have three. And a secret handshake. Ours is wicked cool." THE AXIS PANDEMIC International reaction to Bush's Axis of Evil declaration was swift, as within minutes, France surrendered. Elsewhere, peer-conscious nations rushed to gain triumvirate status in what became a game of geopolitical chairs. Cuba, Sudan, and Serbia said they had formed the Axis of Somewhat Evil, forcing Somalia to join with Uganda and Myanmar in the Axis of Occasionally Evil, while Bulgaria, Indonesia and Russia established the Axis of Not So Much Evil Really As Just Generally Disagreeable. With the criteria suddenly expanded and all the desirable clubs filling up, Sierra Leone, El Salvador, and Rwanda applied to be called the Axis of Countries That Aren't the Worst But Certainly Won't Be Asked to Host the Olympics; Canada, Mexico, and Australia formed the Axis of Nations That Are Actually Quite Nice But Secretly Have Nasty Thoughts About America, while Spain, Scotland, and New Zealand established the Axis of Countries That Want to Be Allowed to Ask Sheep to Wear Lipstick. "That's not a threat, really, just something we like to do," said Scottish Executive First Minister Jack McConnell. While wondering if the other nations of the world weren't perhaps making fun of him, a cautious Bush granted approval for most axes, although he rejected the establishment of the Axis of Countries Whose Names End in "Guay," accusing one of its members of filing a false application. Officials from Paraguay, Uruguay, and Chadguay denied the charges. From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Feb 20 18:27:49 2002 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA06436; Wed, 20 Feb 2002 18:26:28 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 18:26:28 -0800 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Government policy Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 13:25:48 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: <1em87u8v71kdn64946q0cvcv2e7tduim7m@4ax.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.9/32.560 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id SAA06368 Resent-Message-ID: <"4GzqM2.0.Sa1.Kh5Ty"@mx1> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/1545 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Major government policy shift - media not being lied to. see http://www.cbsnews.com/now/story/0,1597,329975-412,00.shtml Does this mean they will now tell us the truth about UFO research? ;) Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ ....Put the "bottom line" at the top! From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 14 06:39:17 2002 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id GAA20558; Tue, 14 May 2002 06:32:47 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 14 May 2002 06:32:47 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 14 May 2002 06:32:39 -0700 (PDT) From: William Beaty Reply-To: William Beaty To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: vortexC-L dead, want to restart? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"3PlF-2.0.915._7Huy"@mx1> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/1546 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: On Tue, 14 May 2002, Neil Duffy wrote: > Sorry to bother you with this but I have changed ny email address from > N.D.Duffy@hw.ac.uk to x. I would like to stay subscribed > to VortexC-L but the server does not seem to be responding to subscribe > requests. The vortexC $60 subscription was due and I let it lapse. Might you want to start up a Torsion list on yahoo? Anyone? Lists are free there. If so, I can announce the new list, so any old vort-C users can subscribe. (((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))) William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website billbeskimo.com http://amasci.com EE/programmer/sci-exhibits science projects, tesla, weird science Seattle, WA 206-789-0775 sciclub-list freenrg-L vortex-L webhead-L From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jun 12 15:12:41 2002 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA27644; Wed, 12 Jun 2002 15:11:33 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 15:11:33 -0700 X-Sent: 12 Jun 2002 22:10:55 GMT Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20020612173257.0324d788@mail.DIRECTVInternet.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell@mail.DIRECTVInternet.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 18:10:40 -0400 To: vortexB-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: OFF TOPIC -VL posting: Civil War In-Reply-To: References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020612123301.03262550@mail.DIRECTVInternet.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20020611113317.03202be8@mail.DIRECTVInternet.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20020611161652.03202620@mail.DIRECTVInternet.com> <3D06AF85.FE99294C@ix.netcom.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20020612123301.03262550@mail.DIRECTVInternet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"PkO3F3.0.ll6.KSy1z"@mx1> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/1547 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Dean T. Miller wrote: >I find it hard to believe that you live in Atlanta and think the Civil >War had anything to do with slavery. Well, Longstreet and Davis said it was about slavery. All the black people of Georgia I know of, then and now, agree that slavery was the cause. Who would know better? They are the experts in their own history, after all. They understood the slaveholders better then slaveholders knew themselves, since the institution mattered to them infinitely more. And the Georgia black population was took an active, heroic role in the war. As Lincoln said, the war would have been lost without them. Perhaps some white soldiers were fighting over economics or where cotton mills would be constructed, but black Georgians were fighting for "freedom, race and nation" as they said. They were strongly motivated. They beat the crap out of the Confederates. See: http://www.coax.net/people/lwf/data.htm >The war was primarily about economics, where the northern mills didn't >want the southern states to have their own cotton mills. The southern >states were to grow cotton and ship it north. I do not think you could persuade 400,000 Northerners to die for that cause, or 200,000 black troops to enlist. After the war countless cotton mills were built in the south with Wall Street money, and as far as I know no one in the North objected, or threatened a new war. Anyway, this is off topic. Please respond to Vortex-BL. - Jed From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Feb 10 14:29:52 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA05744; Mon, 10 Feb 2003 14:26:01 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 14:26:01 -0800 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: the war against Saddam Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2003 09:25:25 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: <8m9g4vknargh0mmbora2ae2fcsvt684v2t@4ax.com> References: <20030210192137.33309.qmail@web40408.mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <20030210192137.33309.qmail@web40408.mail.yahoo.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.92/32.572 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id OAA05675 Resent-Message-ID: <"Uu6ms.0.bP1.vR2I-"@mx1> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/1548 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Charles Ford's message of Mon, 10 Feb 2003 11:21:37 -0800: Hi, [snip] >> I picked the following three more or less at random, but could find no >> declaration of war in them. Perhaps you can do better. >> >> http://www.uruklink.net/iraq/e2003/e17j-03.htm >> http://www.uruklink.net/iraq/e1998/e_vict1.htm >> http://www.uruklink.net/iraq/e2000/e6jan2000.htm >> >> > >> >> >DO not give Saddam credit for inocence here. >> >> > >Go to any search engine and type in the following > >"Saddam Declares War" > >Don't lock yourself into one news source and NEVER stake your integrity >on the word of a reporter. I did as you suggested, and got only the following two entries from google: http://www.fas.harvard.edu/~irdp/ref/ref02.html http://www.twinight.org/avid/2000/avidchat1012am.html The first appears to have been a defensive reaction, the second not even a report. Perhaps you can supply a more useful reference? [snip] (For Saddam Declares War - separate words, not a quoted string, there were lots of references, mostly about the US declaring war on Iraq). Regards, R. van Spaandonk When you are counting the dead, remember who voted for the man that made it all possible. From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Feb 10 14:30:10 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA05932; Mon, 10 Feb 2003 14:26:26 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 14:26:26 -0800 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: the war against Saddam Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2003 09:25:48 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: <2n9g4vsbu8hlp68i9f2smo6ooe9j38mt35@4ax.com> References: <92491085.1044873569@localhost> In-Reply-To: <92491085.1044873569@localhost> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.92/32.572 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id OAA05845 Resent-Message-ID: <"KpG0R1.0.ZS1.IS2I-"@mx1> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/1549 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to R. Wormus's message of Mon, 10 Feb 2003 10:39:29 -0800: Hi, [snip] >I found the following analysis insightful: > >http://www.counterpunch.org/ > >The US Gameplan for Iraq >by BILL CHRISTISON >(former CIA political analyst) > >Ron W. So do I. Regards, R. van Spaandonk When you are counting the dead, remember who voted for the man that made it all possible. From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Feb 10 17:14:29 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA27347; Mon, 10 Feb 2003 17:11:53 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 17:11:53 -0800 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: the war against Saddam Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2003 12:10:30 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: <0cjg4v0jauk2rfn5vha1ocda0jsv14muaf@4ax.com> References: <20030210192137.33309.qmail@web40408.mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <20030210192137.33309.qmail@web40408.mail.yahoo.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.92/32.572 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id RAA27303 Resent-Message-ID: <"FUbg23.0.Eh6.Ot4I-"@mx1> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/1550 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to Charles Ford's message of Mon, 10 Feb 2003 11:21:37 -0800: Hi, [snip] >> I picked the following three more or less at random, but could find no >> declaration of war in them. Perhaps you can do better. >> >> http://www.uruklink.net/iraq/e2003/e17j-03.htm >> http://www.uruklink.net/iraq/e1998/e_vict1.htm >> http://www.uruklink.net/iraq/e2000/e6jan2000.htm >> >> > >> >> >DO not give Saddam credit for inocence here. >> >> > >Go to any search engine and type in the following > >"Saddam Declares War" > >Don't lock yourself into one news source and NEVER stake your integrity >on the word of a reporter. I did as you suggested, and got only the following two entries from google: http://www.fas.harvard.edu/~irdp/ref/ref02.html http://www.twinight.org/avid/2000/avidchat1012am.html The first appears to have been a defensive reaction, the second not even a report. Perhaps you can supply a more useful reference? [snip] (For Saddam Declares War - separate words, not a quoted string, there were lots of references, mostly about the US declaring war on Iraq). Regards, R. van Spaandonk When you are counting the dead, remember who voted for the man that made it all possible. From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Feb 10 17:43:19 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA09774; Mon, 10 Feb 2003 17:40:45 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 17:40:45 -0800 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: the war against Saddam Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2003 12:39:54 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <71o34vkd63g4cg1stii4r65m1c3cglbj9h@4ax.com> In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.92/32.572 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id RAA09742 Resent-Message-ID: <"I6PZl.0.fO2.SI5I-"@mx1> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/1551 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: In reply to thomas malloy's message of Mon, 10 Feb 2003 03:04:37 -0600: Hi, [snip] >Robbin van Spaarondonk replied; > >> >Saddam's goal is to be the next Nebucanezar. He would like to unify >>>the Arabs and smash Israel. >> >>Fat chance of either. In fact if anyone succeeds in unifying the Arabs, >>it will George W. > >The Wahabbi's (fundamentaist Islamists) are already united. They hate >us, and that includes you. Their agenda is to conquer the world for >Islam. They will offer you the choice of convert or die; there is a >third option however, we are going to incinerate them. I suggest you take a look at an atlas Thomas. The Wahabis are from Saudi Arabia, not Iraq. [snip] >>Administration line again, and also the same line used by nearly >>every invading force throughout history. It's also pure BS. You >>don't need a hundred thousand men to remove a tyrant, a small >>remotely controlled model plane with an explosive and a TV camera >>will do the job, at a cost of a few thousand bucks, and the >>administration knows this. However you do need an army to "liberate" >>a country's resources. > >I'm sure that the coalition forces will do the job as expeditiously >as possible. Your line about the resources is pure left wing BS, >those resources are for sale now, and they will be for sale in the >future. The difference is that the liberated Iraq will spend the >money on it's people not guilded palaces and weapons that they don't >need. On the contrary, the difference is that it won't be the Iraqi's selling the oil, but rather Western interests. The Iraqi's will get a pittance. > >> >>>What part of the evidence presented by Secretary >>>Powell don't you understand? A Modified is a motorhome fitted out to >>>be a biological laboratory. El Queda operatives are living in Iraq. >> >>And also in the Philippines, Malaysia, Indonesia, Germany, Britain, Italy, >>several African countries, and the US, does that mean you are going >>to go to war with yourself as well? > >They will all have to be eliminated. I agree that the terrorists need to be stopped, however if you were to use the same tactic on all the nations where terrorists reside, that you plan on using on Iraq, then you would be at war with yourself as well, because they also reside in the US. > >>And as far as weapons of mass destruction are concerned, the US >>couldn't be more hypocritical. It holds the largest stores of such >>weapons of any nation on Earth. >>Face it, this war has nothing to do with weapons of mass >>destruction. That's just the excuse. A red herring designed for >>local public consumption in the US designed to play upon your fears >>after 911. > >We, Joseph (America, and the British Commonwealth nations) have a >divine right to have them. BS. >While we are not perfect, we have an >internal group of illuminated ones, one example of which is Skull and >Bones, see www.secretsofthetemple.com . They control the CIA and >other government agencies. They have done all kinds of bad things in >our name. ...and they're about to do it again. >However, our actions have been, by in large positive. Up until now yes, but they have never before held so many positions of power in government. [snip] >If you don't develop a relationship with Jesus, and you are presented >with the option of bow down to their god, and take the Mark, which >will involve the number 666. or death, you will be better off taking >the latter option. > >> >I won't argue that, however what part of a war to the death between >>>the children of Israel (western civilization) and the children of >>>Esau (Islam), don't you understand? >> >>What part don't you understand of the fact that throughout history >>religion has been used as an excuse for wars that were really all >>about acquisition of resources? > >The history of the past 4000 years has plenty of blame to go around. >However, this war is not about resources. It is primarily about resources and control. The control in turn is eventually also about resources. >Nor will the 5766 war, >which will be the beginning of the war of the end times. That may be, time will tell. > >>That's because if you tell the average man on the street that you >>want him to lay down his life so that you can get richer, he will >>laugh in your face, but if you tell him that his immortal soul is in >>danger from the >>"heathen enemy", he will lay down his life willingly. >>People have been played for fools for thousands of years. It appears >>you are no exception. > >That depends on whether or not the Bible is what it says it is. Given >that about 80% of the prophecies in the plain text have proven to be >correct. Some people still don't accept it. There are some people >think that just because Bible Code exists, and the rest of the events >prophecized have come to pass, that is just an interesting freak of >nature, and not proof that a super human being who exists out side of >time wrote it. We shall see. > >My friend Phil, who is circulating a petition for W's recall >forwarded this to me. I fail to see how a man with an advanced degree >from Harvard can be considered stupid. Check out http://www.thedubyareport.com/quotes.html [snip] BTW in a recent TV comment from the leader of the Iraqi opposition, he said that they didn't want to be bombed to get rid of Saddam. He said they could do that themselves. Regards, R. van Spaandonk When you are counting the dead, remember who voted for the man that made it all possible. From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Feb 20 13:04:36 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA00947; Thu, 20 Feb 2003 12:59:45 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 20 Feb 2003 12:59:45 -0800 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Sonofusion, "beta aether" and jounce Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2003 07:59:03 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: <8aga5v4eu14qnrn3ond7krnqtnlfruo1an@4ax.com> References: <003701c2d8fa$12618600$0a016ea8@cpq> In-Reply-To: <003701c2d8fa$12618600$0a016ea8@cpq> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.92/32.572 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id MAA00850 Resent-Message-ID: <"N-tk13.0.eE.07KL-"@mx1> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/1552 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: In reply to Jones Beene's message of Thu, 20 Feb 2003 08:06:47 -0800: Hi, [snip] >Bushism of the Day >"One year ago today, the time for excuse-making has come to an end." Does the US really want someone this confused as their president? Regards, R. van Spaandonk When you are counting the dead, remember who voted for the man that made it all possible. From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Mar 10 21:45:40 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id VAA29063; Mon, 10 Mar 2003 21:42:52 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2003 21:42:52 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2003 21:42:51 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l@eskimo.com cc: vortexb-L@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Fwd: A question for the moderator In-Reply-To: <3f.187c22c0.2b87ea83@aol.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"7lLTg.0.y57.STNR-"@mx1> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/1553 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Fri, 21 Feb 2003 JCarey9622@aol.com wrote: > ERic Krieg asked me to join his skeptic site probably thinking the > sharks would eat me alive. Why would he think that? Some people are very poor at guessing what others are really thinking. I've known Mr. Kreig for years. He gives inventors every chance to prove their claims. He's honestly looking for energy devices which really work. > When it was I that eat them alive i was banned. If you behave badly on an online forum, the moderator will probably kick you off. "Badly" includes a constant stream of insults. > i made sush a fool out of him to the point that he has almost become a > supporter by helping me anyway he can. . Bill with these people > screaming about me to the extent they are, They're complaining about your behavior. People who spew insults on the internet are very common. The usual name for this behavior is "flaming." > because I'm must be upsetting their physics apple carts I thought you were keeping all the information secret. How can you upset anyone if proprietary considerations prevent you from presenting any evidence that you are right? > why haven't i been banned from this one. Because I hate throwing people off the forum, but I eventually take action. (((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))) William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website billbeskimo.com http://amasci.com EE/programmer/sci-exhibits amateur science, hobby projects, sci fair Seattle, WA 206-789-0775 unusual phenomena, tesla coils, weird sci From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Mar 10 22:27:07 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id WAA21029; Mon, 10 Mar 2003 22:24:48 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2003 22:24:48 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2003 22:24:45 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l@eskimo.com cc: vortexb-L@eskimo.com Subject: Moderator: Carey device going to vortexB In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"hz6sd3.0.L85.l4OR-"@mx1> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/1554 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: A The "Carey device" thread and namecalling has dominated the forum for long enough. I'm moving it to vortexB-L. Anyone who wishes to continue the conversation can subscribe (many vortex-L subscribers are already on vortexB). The archive is here: http://amasci.com/weird/vtxb2000.txt vortexB-L@eskimo.com is a separate e-list created in 1998 for any conversations or incivility drawing widespread complaints on vortex-L. Vortex-L is somewhat civilized, while VortexB-L is the no-rules version with no limits on subject matter or "flamewars." You can subscribe to vortexB-L, vortex-L, both or neither. The subscribe/unsubscribe commands are similar: send a blank mesage with either "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" in the SUBJECT line, send it to vortexB-L-request@eskimo.com (((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))) William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website billbeskimo.com http://amasci.com EE/programmer/sci-exhibits amateur science, hobby projects, sci fair Seattle, WA 206-789-0775 unusual phenomena, tesla coils, weird sci From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Mar 10 23:14:32 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id XAA07972; Mon, 10 Mar 2003 23:12:47 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2003 23:12:47 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2003 23:12:44 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: secrecy order In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"o7DwU2.0.Vy1.lnOR-"@mx1> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/1555 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >From http://groups.yahoo.com/group/energy2000/ From: rsperbeck Sent: Saturday, March 08, 2003 10:45 PM Subject: NEW INVENTION SECRECY ORDERS REPORTED The United States Govt. invoked the invention Secrecy Act of 1951 to impose new secrecy order's on 139 patent application's during the fiscal year 2002. Thereby blocking their publication. A total of 4,792 secrecy order's remained in effect at the end of the year, according to statistics compiled by the Patent and Trademark Office. Secrecy orders can be imposed on patent application's at the discretion of the government agencies whenever, in what their judgment,disclosure of the invention could be " detrimental to national security". The invention Secrecy act is one of the two laws that permit the government to prevent publication of privately generated information.[the other law is the Atomic Energy act] the constitutionality of such authority.which appears to be at odds with the first Amendment, has never been tested in court. OF the 139 new secrecy order's issued last year,37 were imposed on private inventors or businesses who develop their inventions with out Government funding.Such orders,which are referred to as john doe orders are the most potentially problematic from the constitutional point of view. [ source; Secrecy News, no 1 January 6, 2003; statistics at http://www.fas.org/sgp/othergov/invention/stats.html From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Mar 12 11:32:59 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id LAA21279; Wed, 12 Mar 2003 11:28:40 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2003 11:28:40 -0800 Message-ID: <3E6F8A55.1B7534F6@verisoft.com.tr> Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2003 21:28:21 +0200 From: hamdi ucar Reply-To: hamdix@verisoft.com.tr X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 [en] (Win98; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: VortexB Subject: Fifth force from fifth dimension (gr-qc/0303044) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"sq5Ep1.0.JC5.dfuR-"@mx1> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/1566 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: LANL archive http://xxx.lanl.gov/abs/gr-qc/0303044 Fifth force from fifth dimension: a comparison between two different approaches Authors: F. Dahia, E. M. Monte, C. Romero Comments: l7 pages - Typeset using REVTEX We investigate the dynamics of particles moving in a spacetime augmented by one extra dimension in the context of the induced matter theory of gravity. We examine the appearance of a fifth force as an effect caused by the extra dimension and discuss two different approaches to the fifth force formalism. We then give two examples of application of both approaches by considering the case of a Ricci-flat warped-product manifold and a generalized Randall-Sundrum space. From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Mar 22 14:29:10 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id OAA08340; Sat, 22 Mar 2003 14:24:54 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 22 Mar 2003 14:24:54 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs Date: Sat, 22 Mar 2003 14:24:52 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: NOTE: you are currently subscribed to vortexB-L In-Reply-To: <79.d0e3f7d.2bace87b@aol.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"Y-GvP2.0.E22.sAEV-"@mx1> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/1576 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: If you're reading this then you are currently subscribed to vortexB-L@eskimo.com, one of Bill Beaty's amasci.com lists. There are no rules here. Screaming political flamewars are perflectly OK. Go wild. To start a thread, just reply to this message and change the subject line to whatever. Recent messages can be read at http://amasci.com/weird/vtxb2000.txt To unsubscribe, send a blank message to vortexB-L-request@eskimo.com, with the word "unsubscribe" in the subject line of the message. (((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))) William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website billbeskimo.com http://amasci.com EE/programmer/sci-exhibits amateur science, hobby projects, sci fair Seattle, WA 206-789-0775 unusual phenomena, tesla coils, weird sci From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Apr 2 11:15:25 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id LAA31093; Wed, 2 Apr 2003 11:08:16 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2003 11:08:16 -0800 Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.2.20030402101812.026b8ce8@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 Date: Wed, 02 Apr 2003 10:18:14 -0500 To: vortexB-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: A war game web site Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"Z5sO9.0.kb7.WKpY-"@mx1> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/1577 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: See: http://idleworm.wolffelaar.nl/nws/2002/11/swf/iraq2.swf From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Apr 2 11:57:35 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id LAA01017; Wed, 2 Apr 2003 11:50:24 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2003 11:50:24 -0800 Message-ID: <00d001c2f951$765bf380$1202a8c0@WorkGroup> From: "Dave N." To: References: <5.2.0.9.2.20030402101812.026b8ce8@pop.mindspring.com> Subject: Re: A war game web site Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2003 14:47:07 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 X-HotPOP: ----------------------------------------------- Sent By HotPOP.com FREE Email Get your FREE POP email at www.HotPOP.com ----------------------------------------------- Resent-Message-ID: <"-Vtrn.0.kF._xpY-"@mx1> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/1578 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed/All, Well well well... FINALLY, someone posts to this list. Isn't this interesting - those that were posting off topic political messages to the other Vortex list were forced to post them here instead; and this is the FIRST post I've received. Evidentially the vast majority of 'anti-war' types out there aren't interested in 'informing' you unless they can also ram it down your throat. What a bunch of dictatorial fascist bastards! Thank God you people are well in the minority! I only have ONE thing to say on this list about the current conflict: BOOM - You're dead. Better luck next lifetime. Dave Narby! When the oppressed joyfully embrace their liberators, remember those who acted to keep them enslaved. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jed Rothwell" To: Sent: Wednesday, April 02, 2003 10:18 AM Subject: A war game web site | See: | | http://idleworm.wolffelaar.nl/nws/2002/ 11/swf/iraq2.swf | | From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Apr 2 12:08:38 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id MAA11203; Wed, 2 Apr 2003 12:05:10 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2003 12:05:10 -0800 Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.2.20030402150235.00a9f398@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 Date: Wed, 02 Apr 2003 15:05:17 -0500 To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com, From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: A war game web site In-Reply-To: <00d001c2f951$765bf380$1202a8c0@WorkGroup> References: <5.2.0.9.2.20030402101812.026b8ce8@pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"2WQml1.0.-k2.s9qY-"@mx1> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/1579 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Dave N. wrote: >Well well well... FINALLY, someone posts to this list. Isn't this >interesting - those that were posting off topic political messages to the >other Vortex list were forced to post them here . . . Not forced at all. I just thought it would be a good idea. I was unsubscribed so I do not know what, if anything, has been happening here. - Jed From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Apr 2 12:25:46 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id MAA22894; Wed, 2 Apr 2003 12:22:10 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2003 12:22:10 -0800 Message-ID: <00ec01c2f955$ecf34ee0$1202a8c0@WorkGroup> From: "Dave N." To: References: <5.2.0.9.2.20030402101812.026b8ce8@pop.mindspring.com> <5.2.0.9.2.20030402150235.00a9f398@pop.mindspring.com> Subject: Re: A war game web site Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2003 15:21:32 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 X-HotPOP: ----------------------------------------------- Sent By HotPOP.com FREE Email Get your FREE POP email at www.HotPOP.com ----------------------------------------------- Resent-Message-ID: <"CiasI3.0.Yb5.nPqY-"@mx1> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/1580 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed, Well, absolutely nothing was happening until you posted. I think it was a couple of weeks! BTW you don't fall into the category of the vast majority of 'anti-war' protesters if in fact you are one ; ) . I'm surprised you got unsubscribed from this list. I thought it was a free for all..? Best, Dave When the oppressed joyfully embrace their liberators, remember those who acted to keep them enslaved. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jed Rothwell" To: ; Sent: Wednesday, April 02, 2003 3:05 PM Subject: Re: A war game web site | Dave N. wrote: | | >Well well well... FINALLY, someone posts to this list. Isn't this | >interesting - those that were posting off topic political messages to the | >other Vortex list were forced to post them here . . . | | Not forced at all. I just thought it would be a good idea. | | I was unsubscribed so I do not know what, if anything, has been happening here. | | - Jed | | From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Apr 2 14:05:53 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id OAA14687; Wed, 2 Apr 2003 14:01:37 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2003 14:01:37 -0800 Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.2.20030402160118.00a9f398@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 Date: Wed, 02 Apr 2003 17:01:49 -0500 To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com, From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: A war game web site In-Reply-To: <00ec01c2f955$ecf34ee0$1202a8c0@WorkGroup> References: <5.2.0.9.2.20030402101812.026b8ce8@pop.mindspring.com> <5.2.0.9.2.20030402150235.00a9f398@pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"DNGo61.0.Qb3.1trY-"@mx1> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/1581 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Dave N. wrote: >BTW you don't fall into the category of the vast majority of 'anti-war' >protesters . . . Approximately 60 to 80% of the human race opposes this war, so I do not think you can categorize this group in any meaningful way. The sample is too large to fit any demographic age group, social class, voter group, nationality or other category. >if in fact you are one ; ) . I oppose the war for the reasons I stated a few weeks ago: I personally would not be willing to risk my own life to free the Iraqi people from tyranny. Therefore, I could not, in good conscience, ask any other American to risk his or her life for this cause. The lives of our soldiers & other citizens are a precious to me as my own, or my children's. Our soldiers are not mercenaries or gladiators. In a democratic society at war, everyone should be willing -- at least in principle -- to share all risks and sacrifices. I grant there are valid, moral reasons to fight, and some degree of risk to the U.S. if we do not fight, but the reasons and risks are no so great that I myself would be willing to risk death or serious wounds. If I were Iraqi, I would certainly be willing to fight for this cause. >When the oppressed joyfully embrace their liberators, remember those who >acted to keep them enslaved. The U.S. cannot begin to free more than a tiny fraction of the enslaved people in the world. They cannot be freed by military means, or by some magic domino effect. We can do nothing for Chinese, the North Koreans, or the two billion people enslaved by dire poverty, starvation, ignorance and superstition. There are not enough bombs, soldiers and dollars in the U.S. or anywhere else to free them. It can only be done by gradual, peaceful means: with education, clean water, access to capital for individuals, cheap energy and other enabling technology. These tools will gradually overcome the most merciless tyrants and inhuman social systems. That is what happened in Europe over the centuries after the Roman Empire fell, and in the Soviet Union in the 20th century. As much as I hope we will free the Iraqi people, I fear we are mainly there to ensure low oil prices. As Bush said, this is a strategically important place. We would not think of invading any other third world hell-hole controlled by maniacs & tyrants, because the others have no oil. Actually, I doubt the U.S. plans to free anyone in Iraq. "Regime change" is a cynical phrase that means what it says: we will impose a docile new dictator who will do our bidding, and keep oil prices low. We have done nothing to encourage democracy in Afghanistan as far as I know. Women are still imprisoned or killed for adultery. Voting is unheard of. We have merely put a different set of warlords are in charge. They will pretend to support us as long as we pay them off. We supposedly freed Kuwait in the first Gulf war, but there have been no elections there, and in a recent public opinion poll, 70% of Kuwaiti respondents said they think Bin Laden is a "hero." Most Kuwaitis and Iraqi people say that if a free election were held, they would vote for a radical Islamic government. That is the last thing the U.S. government wants. The U.S. will never allow that while Iraq is occupied, and nothing will prevent it once we leave. - Jed From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Apr 2 14:25:18 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id OAA25413; Wed, 2 Apr 2003 14:20:09 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2003 14:20:09 -0800 Message-ID: <015c01c2f966$72c9bf80$1202a8c0@WorkGroup> From: "Dave N." To: References: <5.2.0.9.2.20030402101812.026b8ce8@pop.mindspring.com> <5.2.0.9.2.20030402150235.00a9f398@pop.mindspring.com> <5.2.0.9.2.20030402160118.00a9f398@pop.mindspring.com> Subject: Re: A war game web site Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2003 17:17:36 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 X-HotPOP: ----------------------------------------------- Sent By HotPOP.com FREE Email Get your FREE POP email at www.HotPOP.com ----------------------------------------------- Resent-Message-ID: <"2bEft2.0.vC6.P8sY-"@mx1> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/1582 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: I repeat: | I only have ONE thing to say on this list about the current conflict: | | BOOM - You're dead. Better luck next lifetime. Dave When the oppressed joyfully embrace their liberators, remember those who acted to keep them enslaved. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jed Rothwell" To: ; Sent: Wednesday, April 02, 2003 5:01 PM Subject: Re: A war game web site | Dave N. wrote: | | >BTW you don't fall into the category of the vast majority of 'anti-war' | >protesters . . . | | Approximately 60 to 80% of the human race opposes this war, so I do not | think you can categorize this group in any meaningful way. The sample is | too large to fit any demographic age group, social class, voter group, | nationality or other category. | | | >if in fact you are one ; ) . | | I oppose the war for the reasons I stated a few weeks ago: I personally | would not be willing to risk my own life to free the Iraqi people from | tyranny. Therefore, I could not, in good conscience, ask any other American | to risk his or her life for this cause. The lives of our soldiers & other | citizens are a precious to me as my own, or my children's. Our soldiers are | not mercenaries or gladiators. In a democratic society at war, everyone | should be willing -- at least in principle -- to share all risks and | sacrifices. | | I grant there are valid, moral reasons to fight, and some degree of risk to | the U.S. if we do not fight, but the reasons and risks are no so great that | I myself would be willing to risk death or serious wounds. If I were Iraqi, | I would certainly be willing to fight for this cause. | | | >When the oppressed joyfully embrace their liberators, remember those who | >acted to keep them enslaved. | | The U.S. cannot begin to free more than a tiny fraction of the enslaved | people in the world. They cannot be freed by military means, or by some | magic domino effect. We can do nothing for Chinese, the North Koreans, or | the two billion people enslaved by dire poverty, starvation, ignorance and | superstition. There are not enough bombs, soldiers and dollars in the U.S. | or anywhere else to free them. It can only be done by gradual, peaceful | means: with education, clean water, access to capital for individuals, | cheap energy and other enabling technology. These tools will gradually | overcome the most merciless tyrants and inhuman social systems. That is | what happened in Europe over the centuries after the Roman Empire fell, and | in the Soviet Union in the 20th century. | | As much as I hope we will free the Iraqi people, I fear we are mainly there | to ensure low oil prices. As Bush said, this is a strategically important | place. We would not think of invading any other third world hell-hole | controlled by maniacs & tyrants, because the others have no oil. | | Actually, I doubt the U.S. plans to free anyone in Iraq. "Regime change" is | a cynical phrase that means what it says: we will impose a docile new | dictator who will do our bidding, and keep oil prices low. | | We have done nothing to encourage democracy in Afghanistan as far as I | know. Women are still imprisoned or killed for adultery. Voting is unheard | of. We have merely put a different set of warlords are in charge. They will | pretend to support us as long as we pay them off. We supposedly freed | Kuwait in the first Gulf war, but there have been no elections there, and | in a recent public opinion poll, 70% of Kuwaiti respondents said they think | Bin Laden is a "hero." Most Kuwaitis and Iraqi people say that if a free | election were held, they would vote for a radical Islamic government. That | is the last thing the U.S. government wants. The U.S. will never allow that | while Iraq is occupied, and nothing will prevent it once we leave. | | - Jed | | From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Apr 2 15:12:34 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id PAA20478; Wed, 2 Apr 2003 15:08:37 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2003 15:08:37 -0800 Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.2.20030402173843.026d4a38@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 Date: Wed, 02 Apr 2003 18:08:18 -0500 To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com, From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: A war game web site In-Reply-To: <015c01c2f966$72c9bf80$1202a8c0@WorkGroup> References: <5.2.0.9.2.20030402101812.026b8ce8@pop.mindspring.com> <5.2.0.9.2.20030402150235.00a9f398@pop.mindspring.com> <5.2.0.9.2.20030402160118.00a9f398@pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"_Z7_31.0.v_4.rrsY-"@mx1> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/1583 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Dave N. wrote: >I repeat: > >| I only have ONE thing to say on this list about the current conflict: >| >| BOOM - You're dead. Better luck next lifetime. An astute analysis! You should join the administration. Please explain how -- or in what sense -- have we triumphed with this "BOOM!" methodology, when 70% of the people we "liberated" in Kuwait are in favor of flying airplanes into our buildings and killing thousands of innocent U.S. civilians. If this is victory, what would you call defeat? One or two more victories like that will destroy us, as King Pyrrhus said in a similar context. Recent U.S. and Israeli "victories" in the Mideast have been unmitigated disasters, like the Allied victory in 1918, or the Japanese campaigns in China in the early 1930s. The demands imposed on Germany in the treaty led inevitably to a larger war. As far as the German General Staff was concerned, there never was peace. When France fell in 1940 they said "the 26-year war" has finally ended in victory. In the past, societies have sometimes fought wars for decades. In the U.S. south, a brutal, low-level, terrorist race war dragged on from 1860 to 1965, killing thousands of people. It would flare up periodically into a shooting war, with cities and towns destroyed. It caused the largest mass migration in history -- millions of people were uprooted, pushed off their land, and driven north. Is this what we want for ourselves and our children? Another cold war. Another Hundred Years War. Another Northern Ireland, or Israeli occupied territories. We are drifting to a situation like Orwell's "1984," with an endless shifting undefined set of reasons to fight, and a faceless crowd of enemies that change overnight into allies and then into enemies again, like the Kuwaitis. War without moral purpose, without realistic goals, without beginning or end. Is this really the best, most creative response we can make to radical Islam, and to others who hate and fear us? Is this the only means we can think of to ensure "homeland security" and to free other people? We can never free more than a tiny fraction of oppressed people by war. Three billion people live in slavery or in such dire poverty they would be better off under Hussein or Stalin. Most would fight an invader as vigorously as the Germans, Russians and Japanese did when they were enslaved in the 1940s. Before we can rescue a hundred million by brute force, terrorists and war would destroy the U.S. - Jed From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Apr 2 15:51:35 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id PAA17991; Wed, 2 Apr 2003 15:49:01 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2003 15:49:01 -0800 Message-ID: <3E8B76B8.60506@ghiocel.com> Date: Wed, 02 Apr 2003 15:48:08 -0800 From: Dan Ghiocel Reply-To: dan@ghiocel.com User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; rv:1.0.2) Gecko/20021120 Netscape/7.01 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: post on war Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"00Skk3.0.eO4.hRtY-"@mx1> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/1584 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed, Good post and great analysis! But also you have to realize that are people out there living only in the present, not in long term perspective, not in a historical reality. So it is not very effective to try to address the issue from this point of view. Right now, it is a sense of euforia :" We have bombs, we can bomb anybody anytime! " "Long term effects?, who cares, we are bombing!". I just read in the news that lately there were about 700 missile send at a cost of $1million each. Oh, we need more money, we going to print more or borrow, no big deal! Of course all these things in the pro-war minds are not suppose to affect the life in US. Dan G. From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Apr 2 19:18:43 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id TAA06349; Wed, 2 Apr 2003 19:15:37 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2003 19:15:37 -0800 Message-ID: <001e01c2f98e$fab78a80$af0e2b42@compaq> From: "Eddie X" To: References: <5.2.0.9.2.20030402101812.026b8ce8@pop.mindspring.com> <5.2.0.9.2.20030402150235.00a9f398@pop.mindspring.com> <00ec01c2f955$ecf34ee0$1202a8c0@WorkGroup> Subject: Re: A war game web site Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2003 19:13:11 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Resent-Message-ID: <"mF9ia2.0.8Z1.PTwY-"@mx1> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/1585 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: i see nothing wrong in protesting a war that is not necessary. This Iraq thing is mostly, if not totally, over oil and political. People are being killed and injured over there because our stupid usa gov, big corporations will not exploit alternative ways of producing energy like hydrogen from water, natural gas, zpe, etc. The son's and daughters of alot of americans are over there dying, getting seriousely injured, captured because of this. Ed x ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave N." To: Sent: Wednesday, April 02, 2003 12:21 PM Subject: Re: A war game web site > Jed, > > Well, absolutely nothing was happening until you posted. I think it was a couple of weeks! BTW > you don't fall into the category of the vast majority of 'anti-war' protesters if in fact you > are one ; ) . > > I'm surprised you got unsubscribed from this list. I thought it was a free for all..? > > Best, > > Dave > > > When the oppressed joyfully embrace their liberators, remember those who acted to keep them > enslaved. > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Jed Rothwell" > To: ; > Sent: Wednesday, April 02, 2003 3:05 PM > Subject: Re: A war game web site > > > | Dave N. wrote: > | > | >Well well well... FINALLY, someone posts to this list. Isn't this > | >interesting - those that were posting off topic political messages to the > | >other Vortex list were forced to post them here . . . > | > | Not forced at all. I just thought it would be a good idea. > | > | I was unsubscribed so I do not know what, if anything, has been happening here. > | > | - Jed > | > | > > > From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Apr 2 19:39:50 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id TAA16709; Wed, 2 Apr 2003 19:37:00 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2003 19:37:00 -0800 Message-ID: <3E8BAC0F.5060902@ghiocel.com> Date: Wed, 02 Apr 2003 19:35:43 -0800 From: Dan Ghiocel Reply-To: dan@ghiocel.com User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; rv:1.0.2) Gecko/20021120 Netscape/7.01 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: war Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"C9-F11.0.z44.RnwY-"@mx1> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/1586 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: The most difficult part is how to tell somebody that has friends or relatives in the war. that the war is "unnecessary" and "fabricated" It is a tremendous burden to think that your family member or friend might die for nothing, even if it is true. From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Apr 2 23:01:06 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id WAA18521; Wed, 2 Apr 2003 22:56:34 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2003 22:56:34 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <009e01c2f9ae$83304680$1202a8c0@WorkGroup> From: "Dave N." To: References: <5.2.0.9.2.20030402101812.026b8ce8@pop.mindspring.com> <5.2.0.9.2.20030402150235.00a9f398@pop.mindspring.com> <5.2.0.9.2.20030402160118.00a9f398@pop.mindspring.com> <5.2.0.9.2.20030402173843.026d4a38@pop.mindspring.com> Subject: Re: A war game web site Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2003 01:51:24 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 X-HotPOP: ----------------------------------------------- Sent By HotPOP.com FREE Email Get your FREE POP email at www.HotPOP.com ----------------------------------------------- Resent-Message-ID: <"DzIVl.0.IX4.QizY-"@mx2> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/1587 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed, What part of: | >| I only have ONE thing to say on this list about the current conflict: Didn't you understand? ; ) Best, Dave When the oppressed joyfully embrace their liberators, remember those who acted to keep them enslaved. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jed Rothwell" To: ; Sent: Wednesday, April 02, 2003 6:08 PM Subject: Re: A war game web site | Dave N. wrote: | | >I repeat: | > | >| I only have ONE thing to say on this list about the current conflict: | >| | >| BOOM - You're dead. Better luck next lifetime. | | An astute analysis! You should join the administration. | | Please explain how -- or in what sense -- have we triumphed with this | "BOOM!" methodology, when 70% of the people we "liberated" in Kuwait are in | favor of flying airplanes into our buildings and killing thousands of | innocent U.S. civilians. If this is victory, what would you call defeat? | One or two more victories like that will destroy us, as King Pyrrhus said | in a similar context. | | Recent U.S. and Israeli "victories" in the Mideast have been unmitigated | disasters, like the Allied victory in 1918, or the Japanese campaigns in | China in the early 1930s. The demands imposed on Germany in the treaty led | inevitably to a larger war. As far as the German General Staff was | concerned, there never was peace. When France fell in 1940 they said "the | 26-year war" has finally ended in victory. | | In the past, societies have sometimes fought wars for decades. In the U.S. | south, a brutal, low-level, terrorist race war dragged on from 1860 to | 1965, killing thousands of people. It would flare up periodically into a | shooting war, with cities and towns destroyed. It caused the largest mass | migration in history -- millions of people were uprooted, pushed off their | land, and driven north. Is this what we want for ourselves and our | children? Another cold war. Another Hundred Years War. Another Northern | Ireland, or Israeli occupied territories. We are drifting to a situation | like Orwell's "1984," with an endless shifting undefined set of reasons to | fight, and a faceless crowd of enemies that change overnight into allies | and then into enemies again, like the Kuwaitis. War without moral purpose, | without realistic goals, without beginning or end. Is this really the best, | most creative response we can make to radical Islam, and to others who hate | and fear us? Is this the only means we can think of to ensure "homeland | security" and to free other people? We can never free more than a tiny | fraction of oppressed people by war. Three billion people live in slavery | or in such dire poverty they would be better off under Hussein or Stalin. | Most would fight an invader as vigorously as the Germans, Russians and | Japanese did when they were enslaved in the 1940s. Before we can rescue a | hundred million by brute force, terrorists and war would destroy the U.S. | | - Jed | | From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Apr 2 23:44:37 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id XAA26394; Wed, 2 Apr 2003 23:41:23 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2003 23:41:23 -0800 (PST) X-Originating-IP: [62.103.119.211] X-Originating-Email: [trelos_epistimonas@hotmail.com] From: "GKK" To: References: <5.2.0.9.2.20030402101812.026b8ce8@pop.mindspring.com> <00d001c2f951$765bf380$1202a8c0@WorkGroup> Subject: Re: A war game web site Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2003 10:38:45 +0300 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 03 Apr 2003 07:39:31.0811 (UTC) FILETIME=[2A40BB30:01C2F9B4] Resent-Message-ID: <"IGxuc3.0.6S6.RM-Y-"@mx2> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/1588 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: >Evidentially the vast majority of 'anti-war' types out there aren't interested in 'informing' you unless they can also ram it down your throat. What a bunch of dictatorial fascist bastards! I tried to inform you but you acted like an idiot you are. As you said, my native language isn't English. Therefore it is to tiring for me to try giving explanations to an idiot that the only thing he wants is to swear. It is fine with me but I won't waste my time any more. >Thank God you people are well in the minority! Are you sure? Look again. PLEASE!!! Don't watch CNN for the truth or information. They don't know those words. Unfortunately I can't help you with that. You have to watch every single channel to learn every aspect of this war. Unfortunately it is the half work you must do. The other half is to read between the lines. Yes, I know. Too much work for an idiot like you. Sorry.. There is one more link http://koutouki.axonnet.gr/iraq/iraq_xxx_2003.html Have fun. From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Apr 3 00:18:49 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id AAA02841; Thu, 3 Apr 2003 00:15:59 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2003 00:15:59 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <3E8BED6C.8010606@ghiocel.com> Date: Thu, 03 Apr 2003 00:14:36 -0800 From: Dan Ghiocel Reply-To: dan@ghiocel.com User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; rv:1.0.2) Gecko/20021120 Netscape/7.01 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: A war game web site References: <5.2.0.9.2.20030402101812.026b8ce8@pop.mindspring.com> <00d001c2f951$765bf380$1202a8c0@WorkGroup> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"djbGt3.0.Ai.ws-Y-"@mx2> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/1589 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Interesting and amusing link! I visited it http://koutouki.axonnet.gr/iraq/iraq_xxx_2003.html From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Apr 3 08:52:12 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id IAA18809; Thu, 3 Apr 2003 08:47:05 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2003 08:47:05 -0800 Message-ID: <005901c2fa01$1051c1e0$1202a8c0@WorkGroup> From: "Dave N." To: References: <5.2.0.9.2.20030402101812.026b8ce8@pop.mindspring.com> <00d001c2f951$765bf380$1202a8c0@WorkGroup> Subject: Re: A war game web site Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2003 11:39:49 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 X-HotPOP: ----------------------------------------------- Sent By HotPOP.com FREE Email Get your FREE POP email at www.HotPOP.com ----------------------------------------------- Resent-Message-ID: <"PX8iR.0.hb4.9M6Z-"@mx1> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/1590 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Trelos! | >Evidentially the vast majority of 'anti-war' types out there aren't | interested in 'informing' you unless they can also ram it down your throat. | What a bunch of dictatorial fascist bastards! | | I tried to inform you but you acted like an idiot you are. No, you presented an assortment of unreferenced, unverifiable and wholly unsubstanciated bullshit. I've suggested if you want me to take your arguments seriously that you need to insert a few links. Evidently those links don't exist, or you're simply too lazy. | As you said, my native language isn't English. Therefore it is to tiring for | me to try giving explanations to an idiot that the only thing he wants is to | swear. | | It is fine with me but I won't waste my time any more. | | >Thank God you people are well in the minority! | | Are you sure? | In this country you are, and for my purposes that's all that matters. | Don't watch CNN for the truth or information. They don't know those words. Pray tell, what should I watch?!? Al-Jazeria?!?!? | Unfortunately I can't help you with that. | | You have to watch every single channel to learn every aspect of this war. I watch Fox, CNN and MSNBC, I listen to NPR, ABC and WOR and I read Reuters, the LA Times, the NY Times and Debka. I can do this because I have news on 10 hours a day and I speed read. | Unfortunately it is the half work you must do. | | The other half is to read between the lines. Oh, you mean decide it means something other than what the author wrote?!?! | Yes, I know. | | Too much work for an idiot like you. At least this 'idiot' can bother to do a search on Google and find major news sources to back up his opinions, unlike some other lazy fucking paranoid communist morons I know. | There is one more link OH GOOD!!!! | http://koutouki.axonnet.gr/iraq/iraq_xxx_2003.html Oh crap, I thought that would be NEWS!!! Instead it's just more PROPAGANDA!!!! Thanks for proving my point! Dave Narby From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Apr 3 12:00:01 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id LAA31071; Thu, 3 Apr 2003 11:56:05 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2003 11:56:05 -0800 Message-ID: <01e801c2fa1b$78e91f40$1202a8c0@WorkGroup> From: "Dave N." To: References: <3E8BAC0F.5060902@ghiocel.com> Subject: Najaf celebrates arrival of US troops "IT WAS LIKE THE LIBERATION OF PARIS" Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2003 14:41:13 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 X-HotPOP: ----------------------------------------------- Sent By HotPOP.com FREE Email Get your FREE POP email at www.HotPOP.com ----------------------------------------------- Resent-Message-ID: <"5ytpD2.0.Qb7.K79Z-"@mx1> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/1591 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Najaf celebrates arrival of US troops By Rick Atkinson, Washington Post, 4/3/2003 NAJAF, Iraq -- An enthusiastic welcome for US forces in Najaf turned jubilant yesterday, as several thousand Iraqis braved sporadic firefights for what one special forces officer described as ''the Macy's Day parade,'' applauding a US patrol that pushed close to a religious shrine at the center of the city. Full story: http://www.boston.com/dailyglobe2/093/nation/Najaf_celebrates_arrivel_of_US_troops+.shtml Hope you all enjoyed that, I sure did! Dave Narby When the oppressed joyfully embrace their liberators, remember those who acted to keep them enslaved. From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Apr 3 13:01:34 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id MAA06404; Thu, 3 Apr 2003 12:58:12 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2003 12:58:12 -0800 Message-ID: <3E8CA042.9010809@ghiocel.com> Date: Thu, 03 Apr 2003 12:57:38 -0800 From: Dan Ghiocel Reply-To: dan@ghiocel.com User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; rv:1.0.2) Gecko/20021120 Netscape/7.01 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: iraqi war parody Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"jJ4vc.0.jZ1.Z1AZ-"@mx1> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/1592 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: http://koutouki.axonnet.gr/iraq/iraq_xxx_2003.html Good parody. Sure it is nothing funny about that war, but I guess we have to preserve our sense of humour Dan G. From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Apr 3 14:57:59 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id OAA08629; Thu, 3 Apr 2003 14:55:52 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2003 14:55:52 -0800 Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.2.20030403175148.02690178@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 Date: Thu, 03 Apr 2003 17:56:11 -0500 To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com, From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Najaf celebrates arrival of US troops OR angry Najif crowds attack U.S. troops In-Reply-To: <01e801c2fa1b$78e91f40$1202a8c0@WorkGroup> References: <3E8BAC0F.5060902@ghiocel.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"_7IxD2.0.m62.tlBZ-"@mx1> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/1593 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Dave N. quotes the Washington Post: >Najaf celebrates arrival of US troops > >By Rick Atkinson, Washington Post, 4/3/2003 > >NAJAF, Iraq -- An enthusiastic welcome for US forces in Najaf turned >jubilant yesterday, as several thousand Iraqis braved sporadic firefights >for what one special forces officer described as ''the Macy's Day >parade,'' applauding a US patrol that pushed close to a religious shrine >at the center of the city. The New York Times reports just the opposite: http://www.nytimes.com/2003/04/03/international/worldspecial/03CND-ATTACK.html?pagewanted=2 . . . But news of the fatwa was mitigated by television images from Najaf showing United States troops retreating before a crowd of angry residents. The crowd blocked the passage of troops toward the gold-domed Ali Mosque, which is revered by Shiites and contains the tomb of Imam Ali bin Abi Talib, the cousin and son-in-law of the Prophet Muhammad. "City, yes! Ali Mosque, no!" one resident yelled. This is called "the fog of war." History books present events as a unified story, but in reality no one really knows what happened, and there are as many different stories as participants. In this case, I expect few U.S. reporters understood what the crowds were saying. Note that the N.Y. Times guy does appear to speak Arabic. - Jed From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Apr 3 15:31:49 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id PAA30253; Thu, 3 Apr 2003 15:28:16 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2003 15:28:16 -0800 Message-ID: <3E8CC36C.4010901@ghiocel.com> Date: Thu, 03 Apr 2003 15:27:40 -0800 From: Dan Ghiocel Reply-To: dan@ghiocel.com User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; rv:1.0.2) Gecko/20021120 Netscape/7.01 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: war Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"EMH7m3.0.ZO7.EECZ-"@mx1> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/1594 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed, I thought that there is no surprise that the commanders in the war and the war supporters want to see the situation through rose-colored glasses. The whole thing is an example of doublespeak. It is unfortunate that US ends up in this role like in the WWII when it decided to " free and Democratise" the European countries by bringing them the communist terror. Sure, nothing new in liberating Iraq and Afganistan. I heard Afganistan is thriving now : their drug producing harvest is being restored. Dan G. From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Apr 3 16:03:43 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id PAA14193; Thu, 3 Apr 2003 15:57:59 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2003 15:57:59 -0800 Message-ID: <02ae01c2fa3d$3931a8a0$1202a8c0@WorkGroup> From: "Dave N." To: References: <3E8BAC0F.5060902@ghiocel.com> <5.2.0.9.2.20030403175148.02690178@pop.mindspring.com> Subject: Re: Najaf celebrates arrival of US troops OR angry Najif crowds attack U.S. troops Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2003 19:00:10 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 X-HotPOP: ----------------------------------------------- Sent By HotPOP.com FREE Email Get your FREE POP email at www.HotPOP.com ----------------------------------------------- Resent-Message-ID: <"ZRNAj.0.hT3.7gCZ-"@mx1> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/1595 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hi Jed, You quote the NY Times as reporting the opposite of the Washington post, but anyone who reads that article will see that this clearly is far from true! You have SHAMELESSLY taken one quote from that article OUT OF CONTEXT!!! I might as well have used the same article to support my point by using ONLY THIS SNIPPET FROM THAT SAME ARTICLE: "On Wednesday, United States troops were greeted with cheers by hundreds of well-wishers..." Frankly, IMO anything from the New York Times is in question anyway, a it appears they have their own problems with accurate reporting: http://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/002841.php Jed, shame on you! Bad lefty! Go sit in the discredited corner until you learn how to cite sources properly! Best, Dave! | Dave N. quotes the Washington Post: | | | >Najaf celebrates arrival of US troops | > | >By Rick Atkinson, Washington Post, 4/3/2003 | > | >NAJAF, Iraq -- An enthusiastic welcome for US forces in Najaf turned | >jubilant yesterday, as several thousand Iraqis braved sporadic firefights | >for what one special forces officer described as ''the Macy's Day | >parade,'' applauding a US patrol that pushed close to a religious shrine | >at the center of the city. | | | The New York Times reports just the opposite: | | http://www.nytimes.com/2003/04/03/international/worldspecial/03CND-ATTACK.html?pagewanted=2 | | . . . But news of the fatwa was mitigated by television images from Najaf | showing United States troops retreating before a crowd of angry residents. | The crowd blocked the passage of troops toward the gold-domed Ali Mosque, | which is revered by Shiites and contains the tomb of Imam Ali bin Abi | Talib, the cousin and son-in-law of the Prophet Muhammad. | | "City, yes! Ali Mosque, no!" one resident yelled. | | | This is called "the fog of war." History books present events as a unified | story, but in reality no one really knows what happened, and there are as | many different stories as participants. In this case, I expect few U.S. | reporters understood what the crowds were saying. Note that the N.Y. Times | guy does appear to speak Arabic. | | - Jed | | From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Apr 4 00:40:32 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id AAA32671; Fri, 4 Apr 2003 00:37:25 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2003 00:37:25 -0800 X-Originating-IP: [62.103.119.211] X-Originating-Email: [trelos_epistimonas@hotmail.com] From: "GKK" To: References: <5.2.0.9.2.20030402101812.026b8ce8@pop.mindspring.com> <00d001c2f951$765bf380$1202a8c0@WorkGroup> <005901c2fa01$1051c1e0$1202a8c0@WorkGroup> Subject: Re: A war game web site Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2003 11:36:06 +0300 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 04 Apr 2003 08:36:49.0714 (UTC) FILETIME=[55D0D920:01C2FA85] Resent-Message-ID: <"wxfsN.0.P-7.5HKZ-"@mx1> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/1596 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: > No, you presented an assortment of unreferenced, unverifiable and wholly unsubstanciated > bullshit. Yes. Like that uranium is more radioactive than radium. Something that most people know. Uranium is heavier than radium. Do you know what does this mean???? > Pray tell, what should I watch?!? Al-Jazeria?!?!? I didn't suggest Al-Jazeria. You thought that. I wonder why. You should know that life isn't black or white. It is grey. > I watch Fox, CNN and MSNBC, I listen to NPR, ABC and WOR and I read Reuters, the LA Times, the > NY Times and Debka. I can do this because I have news on 10 hours a day and I speed read. Good for you, but those are still full of US propaganda. > Oh, you mean decide it means something other than what the author wrote?!?! No. I mean to think for yourself what is true and what is obvious propaganda. Compare your sources and their messages. Of course if you read only propaganda, especially when this is one-side propaganda, you can't do that. > At least this 'idiot' can bother to do a search on Google and find major news sources to back up > his opinions, unlike some other lazy fucking paranoid communist morons I know. When I gave you a link you just ignored it and tried to make it seem fool. It was enough to understand your way of thinking and acting. What would be the use of giving thousands of links? Do you think there aren't? Go on. Search on Google just to see they exist and you just refuse to see them although they are in front of your eyes. Again you try to humiliate me instead of proving that actually I am a lazy ass. Me a communist???? HAHAHAHA. Yeah. Right. That great danger again. > Oh crap, I thought that would be NEWS!!! Instead it's just more PROPAGANDA!!!! No propaganda. Just a little game for those that can appreciate that. > Thanks for proving my point! Thank you too. > Dave Narby A lazy fucking paranoid communist moron From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Apr 4 03:13:33 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id DAA06619; Fri, 4 Apr 2003 03:09:50 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2003 03:09:50 -0800 Message-ID: <052701c2fa9a$a8296d30$42233941@annamort> Reply-To: "Anna M*" From: "Anna M*" To: References: <5.2.0.9.2.20030402101812.026b8ce8@pop.mindspring.com> <00d001c2f951$765bf380$1202a8c0@WorkGroup> <005901c2fa01$1051c1e0$1202a8c0@WorkGroup> Subject: And it ain't over yet... Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2003 04:09:24 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0524_01C2FA5F.FA27E1B0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Resent-Message-ID: <"b7hEJ.0.Ld1.-VMZ-"@mx1> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/1597 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0524_01C2FA5F.FA27E1B0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable -----Original Message----- From: George Paxinos [mailto:geopax@bluewin.ch]=20 Sent: 02 April 2003 20:43 To: friends Subject: Children killed and maimed in bomb attack on town THIS IS BUSH & BLAIR'S SLAUGHTER-FOR-PROFIT George Home > News = > World = > Middle East = =20 Children killed and maimed in bomb attack on town By Robert Fisk in Baghdad and Justin Huggler 02 April 2003 At least 11 civilians, nine of them children, were killed in Hilla in = central Iraq yesterday, according to reporters in the town who said they = appeared to be the victims of bombing.=20 Reporters from the Reuters news agency said they counted the bodies of = 11 civilians and two Iraqi fighters in the Babylon suburb, 50 miles = south of Baghdad. Nine of the dead were children, one a baby. Hospital = workers said as many as 33 civilians were killed.=20 Terrifying film of women and children later emerged after Reuters and = the Associated Press were permitted by the Iraqi authorities to take = their cameras into the town. Their pictures =AD the first by Western = news agencies from the Iraqi side of the battlefront =AD showed babies = cut in half and children with amputation wounds, apparently caused by = American shellfire and cluster bombs.=20 Much of the videotape was too terrible to show on television and the = agencies' Baghdad editors felt able to send only a few minutes of a = 21-minute tape that included a father holding out pieces of his baby and = screaming "cowards, cowards'' into the camera. Two lorryloads of bodies, = including women in flowered dresses, could be seen outside the Hilla = hospital.=20 Dr Nazem el-Adali, who was trained in Edinburgh, said almost all the = patients were victims of cluster bombs dropped around Hella and in the = neighbouring village of Mazarak. One woman, Alia Mukhtaff, is seen lying = wounded on a bed; she lost six of her children and her husband in the = attacks. Another man is seen with an arm missing, and a second man, = Majeed Djelil, whose wife and two of his children were killed, can be = seen sitting next to his third and surviving child, whose foot is = missing. The mortuary of the hospital, a butcher's shop of chopped up = corpses, is seen briefly in the tape.=20 Iraqi officials have been insisting for 48 hours that the Americans have = used cluster bombs on civilians in the region but this is the first time = that evidence supporting these claims has come from Western news = agencies. Most of the wounded said they were hit by American munitions = and one man described how an American vehicle fired a shell into his = family home. "I could see an American flag,'' he says.=20 One of the editors in Baghdad, a European, when asked why he would not = send the full videotape to London, wound the pictures on to two = mutilated corpses of babies. "How could we ever send this?'' he said.=20 Further south, there was heavy fire around the town of Diwaniyah, about = 80 miles south-east of Baghdad. It was the second day of close combat = between American forces and Iraqi troops, after fighting in the town of = Hindiyah on Monday. It appeared that US troops were looking to take on = some Iraqi forces after initially advancing largely unopposed through = vast tracts of empty desert but deliberately avoiding population = centres.=20 According to reports from Diwaniyah, US Marines deliberately provoked a = firefight by moving into an area where they had come under fire before. = The marines came under heavy fire from rocket-propelled grenades and = machine-guns.=20 Iraqi Republican Guard troops and other fighters fired on the advancing = marines from fortified bunkers and positions in buildings and behind = vehicles. Corporal Patrick Irish of the US Marines said: "They were = shooting from buildings, from dug-out positions, from holes, from = everything. They would jump out to shoot. They were behind buses. You = name it, they were there."=20 Although the Iraqis were outgunned by the heavily armed marines, the = firefight went on for about 10 hours, according to Lieutenant-Colonel B = P McCoy of the US Marines. They used 155mm artillery to destroy Iraqi = tanks and mortar positions. "We hammered them pretty hard," said Lt-Col = McCoy. At least 75 Iraqis were killed in fighting on Diwaniyah's = outskirts and at least 44 soldiers, including some Republican Guard = officers, were taken prisoner, Lt-Col McCoy said. There was no report of = American casualties.=20 North-east of Diwaniyah there was heavy bombing yesterday near Kut to = clear the way for ground forces, according to the US military. American = marines also claim to have "secured" an air base at Qalat Sukkar, = south-east of Kut, which US forces want to use as a staging ground.=20 Overnight, planes bombed the area around Hindiyah. Ominously, there were = also reports of missiles streaking towards the Shia holy city of = Kerbala, where any damage to the shrines could set the Shia Muslim world = alight.=20 The Iraqi military said its troops were fighting US forces inside = Nasiriyah and on the outskirts of the city, and had inflicted heavy = casualties. "The blood of the enemy is flowing profusely," a military = spokesman said at a press briefing, who claimed that fighting was still = going on as he spoke. He claimed the forces fighting in and around = Nasiriyah included Republican Guards, regular Iraqi army soldiers, = volunteers from across the Arab world, and ordinary Iraqi citizens.=20 US Marines fought their way across the city's bridges last Tuesday but = did not take control of the city. Since then, Iraqi forces have made = several ambushes in the area.=20 The Iraqi spokesman also said US forces launched an attack on the Shia = holy city of Najaf yesterday, and claimed fighters inside the city had = forced them to retreat after suffering heavy losses.=20 ----- Original Message -----=20 From: "GKK" To: Sent: Friday, April 04, 2003 1:36 AM Subject: Re: A war game web site > > No, you presented an assortment of unreferenced, unverifiable and = wholly > unsubstanciated > > bullshit. >=20 > Yes. Like that uranium is more radioactive than radium. >=20 > Something that most people know. >=20 > Uranium is heavier than radium. Do you know what does this mean???? >=20 >=20 >=20 > > Pray tell, what should I watch?!? Al-Jazeria?!?!? >=20 > I didn't suggest Al-Jazeria. You thought that. I wonder why. >=20 > You should know that life isn't black or white. >=20 > It is grey. >=20 >=20 >=20 > > I watch Fox, CNN and MSNBC, I listen to NPR, ABC and WOR and I read > Reuters, the LA Times, the > > NY Times and Debka. I can do this because I have news on 10 hours a = day > and I speed read. >=20 > Good for you, but those are still full of US propaganda. >=20 >=20 >=20 > > Oh, you mean decide it means something other than what the author > wrote?!?! >=20 > No. I mean to think for yourself what is true and what is obvious > propaganda. >=20 > Compare your sources and their messages. >=20 > Of course if you read only propaganda, especially when this is = one-side > propaganda, you can't do that. >=20 >=20 >=20 > > At least this 'idiot' can bother to do a search on Google and find = major > news sources to back up > > his opinions, unlike some other lazy fucking paranoid communist = morons I > know. >=20 > When I gave you a link you just ignored it and tried to make it seem = fool. >=20 > It was enough to understand your way of thinking and acting. >=20 >=20 >=20 > What would be the use of giving thousands of links? >=20 > Do you think there aren't? >=20 > Go on. Search on Google just to see they exist and you just refuse to = see > them although they are in front of your eyes. >=20 > Again you try to humiliate me instead of proving that actually I am a = lazy > ass. >=20 >=20 >=20 > Me a communist???? >=20 > HAHAHAHA. >=20 > Yeah. Right. That great danger again. >=20 >=20 >=20 > > Oh crap, I thought that would be NEWS!!! Instead it's just more > PROPAGANDA!!!! >=20 > No propaganda. Just a little game for those that can appreciate that. >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > > Thanks for proving my point! >=20 > Thank you too. >=20 >=20 > > Dave Narby >=20 > A lazy fucking paranoid communist moron >=20 >=20 >=20 > ------=_NextPart_000_0524_01C2FA5F.FA27E1B0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
-----Original=20 Message-----
From: George Paxinos [mailto:geopax@bluewin.ch]=20
Sent: 02 April 2003 20:43
To: = friends
Subject:=20 Children killed and maimed in bomb attack on town

THIS IS BUSH & BLAIR'S=20 SLAUGHTER-FOR-PROFIT

George

Home <http://www.independent.co.uk/> =    >=20 News <http://news.independent.co.uk/>   > = World=20 <http://news.independent.co.uk/world>   > = Middle East=20 <http://news.independent.co.uk/world/middle_east/> =  
Children killed and = maimed in bomb attack on town

By Robert Fisk in Baghdad and Justin Huggler

02 April=20 2003

At least 11 civilians, nine of them children, were killed in Hilla = in=20 central Iraq yesterday, according to reporters in the town who said they = appeared to be the victims of bombing.


Reporters from the Reuters = news agency=20 said they counted the bodies of 11 civilians and two Iraqi fighters in = the=20 Babylon suburb, 50 miles south of Baghdad. Nine of the dead were = children, one a=20 baby. Hospital workers said as many as 33 civilians were killed.=20

Terrifying film of women and children later = emerged=20 after Reuters and the Associated Press were permitted by the Iraqi = authorities=20 to take their cameras into the town. Their pictures ­ the first by = Western=20 news agencies from the Iraqi side of the battlefront ­ showed babies = cut in=20 half and children with amputation wounds, apparently caused by American=20 shellfire and cluster bombs.

Much of the videotape was too = terrible to=20 show on television and the agencies' Baghdad editors felt able to send = only a=20 few minutes of a 21-minute tape that included a father holding out = pieces of his=20 baby and screaming "cowards, cowards'' into the camera. Two lorryloads = of=20 bodies, including women in flowered dresses, could be seen outside the = Hilla=20 hospital.


Dr Nazem = el-Adali, who was=20 trained in Edinburgh, said almost all the patients were victims of = cluster bombs=20 dropped around Hella and in the neighbouring village of Mazarak. One = woman, Alia=20 Mukhtaff, is seen lying wounded on a bed; she lost six of her children = and her=20 husband in the attacks. Another man is seen with an arm missing, and a = second=20 man, Majeed Djelil, whose wife and two of his children were killed, can = be seen=20 sitting next to his third and surviving child, whose foot is missing. = The=20 mortuary of the hospital, a butcher's shop of chopped up corpses, is = seen=20 briefly in the tape.

Iraqi officials have been insisting for 48 = hours=20 that the Americans have used cluster bombs on civilians in the region = but this=20 is the first time that evidence supporting these claims has come from = Western=20 news agencies. Most of the wounded said they were hit by American = munitions and=20 one man described how an American vehicle fired a shell into his family = home. "I=20 could see an American flag,'' he says.

One of the editors in = Baghdad, a=20 European, when asked why he would not send the full videotape to London, = wound=20 the pictures on to two mutilated corpses of babies. "How could we ever = send=20 this?'' he said.

Further south, there was heavy fire around the = town of=20 Diwaniyah, about 80 miles south-east of Baghdad. It was the second day = of close=20 combat between American forces and Iraqi troops, after fighting in the = town of=20 Hindiyah on Monday. It appeared that US troops were looking to take on = some=20 Iraqi forces after initially advancing largely unopposed through vast = tracts of=20 empty desert but deliberately avoiding population centres. =

According to=20 reports from Diwaniyah, US Marines deliberately provoked a firefight by = moving=20 into an area where they had come under fire before. The marines came = under heavy=20 fire from rocket-propelled grenades and machine-guns.

Iraqi = Republican=20 Guard troops and other fighters fired on the advancing marines from = fortified=20 bunkers and positions in buildings and behind vehicles. Corporal Patrick = Irish=20 of the US Marines said: "They were shooting from buildings, from dug-out = positions, from holes, from everything. They would jump out to shoot. = They were=20 behind buses. You name it, they were there."

Although the Iraqis = were=20 outgunned by the heavily armed marines, the firefight went on for about = 10=20 hours, according to Lieutenant-Colonel B P McCoy of the US Marines. They = used=20 155mm artillery to destroy Iraqi tanks and mortar positions. "We = hammered them=20 pretty hard," said Lt-Col McCoy. At least 75 Iraqis were killed in = fighting on=20 Diwaniyah's outskirts and at least 44 soldiers, including some = Republican Guard=20 officers, were taken prisoner, Lt-Col McCoy said. There was no report of = American casualties.

North-east of Diwaniyah there was heavy = bombing=20 yesterday near Kut to clear the way for ground forces, according to the = US=20 military. American marines also claim to have "secured" an air base at = Qalat=20 Sukkar, south-east of Kut, which US forces want to use as a staging = ground.=20

Overnight, planes bombed the area around Hindiyah. Ominously, = there were=20 also reports of missiles streaking towards the Shia holy city of = Kerbala, where=20 any damage to the shrines could set the Shia Muslim world alight. =

The=20 Iraqi military said its troops were fighting US forces inside Nasiriyah = and on=20 the outskirts of the city, and had inflicted heavy casualties. "The = blood of the=20 enemy is flowing profusely," a military spokesman said at a press = briefing, who=20 claimed that fighting was still going on as he spoke. He claimed the = forces=20 fighting in and around Nasiriyah included Republican Guards, regular = Iraqi army=20 soldiers, volunteers from across the Arab world, and ordinary Iraqi = citizens.=20

US Marines fought their way across the city's bridges last = Tuesday but=20 did not take control of the city. Since then, Iraqi forces have made = several=20 ambushes in the area.

The Iraqi spokesman also said US forces = launched=20 an attack on the Shia holy city of Najaf yesterday, and claimed fighters = inside=20 the city had forced them to retreat after suffering heavy losses.=20
----- Original Message -----
From: "GKK" <trelos_epistimonas@hotmail.com>
To: <vortexb-l@eskimo.com>
Sent: Friday, April 04, 2003 1:36 = AM
Subject: Re: A war game web = site

> = > No, you=20 presented an assortment of unreferenced, unverifiable and wholly
> = unsubstanciated
> > bullshit.
>
> Yes. Like that = uranium=20 is more radioactive than radium.
>
> Something that most = people=20 know.
>
> Uranium is heavier than radium. Do you know what = does=20 this mean????
>
>
>
> > Pray tell, what = should I=20 watch?!?  Al-Jazeria?!?!?
>
> I didn't suggest = Al-Jazeria. You=20 thought that. I wonder why.
>
> You should know that life = isn't=20 black or white.
>
> It is grey.
>
>
> =
>=20 > I watch Fox, CNN and MSNBC, I listen to NPR, ABC and WOR and I = read
>=20 Reuters, the LA Times, the
> > NY Times and Debka.  I can = do this=20 because I have news on 10 hours a day
> and I speed read.
> =
>=20 Good for you, but those are still full of US propaganda.
> =
>=20
>
> > Oh, you mean decide it means something other than = what=20 the author
> wrote?!?!
>
> No. I mean to think for = yourself=20 what is true and what is obvious
> propaganda.
>
> = Compare=20 your sources and their messages.
>
> Of course if you read = only=20 propaganda, especially when this is one-side
> propaganda, you = can't do=20 that.
>
>
>
> > At least this 'idiot' can = bother=20 to do a search on Google and find major
> news sources to back = up
>=20 > his opinions, unlike some other lazy fucking paranoid communist = morons=20 I
> know.
>
> When I gave you a link you just ignored = it and=20 tried to make it seem fool.
>
> It was enough to understand = your=20 way of thinking and acting.
>
>
>
> What = would be the=20 use of giving thousands of links?
>
> Do you think there=20 aren't?
>
> Go on. Search on Google just to see they exist = and you=20 just refuse to see
> them although they are in front of your = eyes.
>=20
> Again you try to humiliate me instead of proving that actually = I am a=20 lazy
> ass.
>
>
>
> Me a = communist????
>=20
> HAHAHAHA.
>
> Yeah. Right. That great danger=20 again.
>
>
>
> > Oh crap, I thought that = would be=20 NEWS!!!  Instead it's just more
> PROPAGANDA!!!!
> =
> No=20 propaganda. Just a little game for those that can appreciate = that.
>=20
>
>
>
> > Thanks for proving my = point!
>=20
> Thank you too.
>
>
> > Dave = Narby
>=20
> A lazy fucking paranoid communist moron
>
> =
>=20
> ------=_NextPart_000_0524_01C2FA5F.FA27E1B0-- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Apr 4 06:51:20 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id GAA32601; Fri, 4 Apr 2003 06:49:16 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2003 06:49:16 -0800 Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.2.20030404094628.02693100@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 Date: Fri, 04 Apr 2003 09:49:28 -0500 To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com, From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Najaf celebrates arrival of US troops OR angry Najif crowds attack U.S. troops In-Reply-To: <02ae01c2fa3d$3931a8a0$1202a8c0@WorkGroup> References: <3E8BAC0F.5060902@ghiocel.com> <5.2.0.9.2.20030403175148.02690178@pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"AaIN02.0.Az7.fjPZ-"@mx1> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/1598 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Dave N. wrote: >You quote the NY Times as reporting the opposite of the Washington post, >but anyone who reads >that article will see that this clearly is far from true! The events described in the article were broadcast on CNN. There is no question the account is true, but it may be that another set of events took place elsewhere in the town, or at an earlier time. >Frankly, IMO anything from the New York Times is in question anyway, a it >appears they have >their own problems with accurate reporting: >http://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/002841.php > >Jed, shame on you! Bad lefty! Both the New York Times and the Washington Post have strongly supported the war, so neither can be described as "leftist." I think the world is more complicated and nuanced than you realize. - Jed From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Apr 4 07:30:21 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id HAA13211; Fri, 4 Apr 2003 07:27:15 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2003 07:27:15 -0800 From: "xplorer" To: Subject: RE: Najaf celebrates arrival of US troops OR angry Najif crowds attack U.S. troops Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2003 22:25:44 +0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.2.20030404094628.02693100@pop.mindspring.com> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Resent-Message-ID: <"io_Cn2.0.IE3.IHQZ-"@mx1> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/1599 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: And to underscore what Jed has just said, I watched the Al-Jazeera last night and saw the video as angry crowds were backing the soldiers away. It was long and protracted, and the opposition was firm, but short of rabid. Fortunately, the incident did not deteriorate beyond a standoff, but it underscores what those of us who live outside the U.S. learned by hard experience - local cultures don't always work the way it looks on a nice clean desktop in a sanitized government issue office. The incomprehension of certain people about the comlexity of the world outside the 'Homeland' is a gaping hole in current affairs. Depressing to think that the U.S. is resounding to the sounds of Empire building, even though the masses believe otherwise. We get both the western, mid-east, and mainline asian news over here, and have the luxury of being able to sort out what's fact and what's propaganda. pa > -----Original Message----- > From: Jed Rothwell [mailto:JedRothwell@mindspring.com] > Sent: Friday, 2003 April 04 21:49 > To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com; vortexb-l@eskimo.com > Subject: Re: Najaf celebrates arrival of US troops OR angry Najif crowds > attack U.S. troops > > > Dave N. wrote: > > >You quote the NY Times as reporting the opposite of the Washington post, > >but anyone who reads > >that article will see that this clearly is far from true! > > The events described in the article were broadcast on CNN. There is no > question the account is true, but it may be that another set of > events took > place elsewhere in the town, or at an earlier time. > > > >Frankly, IMO anything from the New York Times is in question > anyway, a it > >appears they have > >their own problems with accurate reporting: > >http://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/002841.php > > > >Jed, shame on you! Bad lefty! > > Both the New York Times and the Washington Post have strongly > supported the > war, so neither can be described as "leftist." > > I think the world is more complicated and nuanced than you realize. > > - Jed > > > From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Apr 4 12:37:22 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id MAA07049; Fri, 4 Apr 2003 12:34:26 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2003 12:34:26 -0800 Message-ID: <3E8DEC3A.1000405@ghiocel.com> Date: Fri, 04 Apr 2003 12:34:02 -0800 From: Dan Ghiocel Reply-To: dan@ghiocel.com User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; rv:1.0.2) Gecko/20030208 Netscape/7.02 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Najaf celebrates arrival of US troops OR angry Najif crowds attack U.S. troops References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"DWqzd2.0.4k1.InUZ-"@mx1> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/1600 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed, I am almost amused because I fell in the same kind of trap over the years . Actually, it is an old method to try to put down the opponent in a debate . One asks for "proofs", the proofs are rejected as not good, therefore you have to produce more proofs, and you are the little "slave" bringing more proofs to satisfy the "judge" ! Old stuff! Since you started mentioning the iraqi situation, with the knowledge you accumulated until now, with the overal view of the situation, do you really need New York Times to tell you they are not welcoming the invasion? You know you are dealing with a population as old as the known history goes, recognized craddle of the civilization, and do you think they will have flowers for an army that is destroying their country? Sure, for a newspaper photoshoot, one can hire some flower throwers, so would that picture in a newspaper change your common sense convictions? Dan G. From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Apr 4 15:52:39 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id PAA30538; Fri, 4 Apr 2003 15:49:18 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2003 15:49:18 -0800 Message-ID: <014301c2fb04$adcc8d20$1202a8c0@WorkGroup> From: "Dave N." To: Subject: Fw: Spiritual Views On War Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2003 18:47:54 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 X-HotPOP: ----------------------------------------------- Sent By HotPOP.com FREE Email Get your FREE POP email at www.HotPOP.com ----------------------------------------------- Resent-Message-ID: <"OE7NA2.0.5T7.-dXZ-"@mx1> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/1601 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Omanipadmiom & Hoo ya! The Fightin' Jesus would be proud! http://www.subgenius.net/dictofgods/#jesus ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dick Sutphen" To: "Dave N." Sent: Friday, April 04, 2003 8:38 AM Subject: Spiritual Views On War | Thank you for subscribing to Dick Sutphen's weekly Master-of-Life | column. You can read it as the e-mail that follows or click here to go | to the column of the Website: | | http://www.dicksutphen.com/html/webcol64.html | | MASTER OF LIFE COLUMN | Dick Sutphen | Date: 4-4-03 | | | SPIRITUAL VIEWS ON WAR | | Spiritual people are not of one mind in their responses to war. | | A close female friend and spiritually-oriented therapist wrote me in an | e-mail: "I could go on forever about what is right politically. | Eventually the choice is a spiritual one. I do not have the right to | kill. Even if they want to kill me first. I am just spirit in body | form. What I do to keep this body should not go against spirit. Too | much Karma to pay. So they can kill me. I will go on to something | better ... THEY WON'T." | | A male friend said, "The right to defend yourself is one of the basic | human rights. If Iraq were allowed to continue to develop weapons and | became a terrorist haven, within the next few years they would use | those weapons on Americans on American soil. We are defending ourselves | and liberating oppressed people. I see no spiritual conflict." | | Osho argues that those who are against war create another war. "... if | you have observed a pacifist protest, you can see how war-like they are | -- shouting, screaming, protesting ... You can see in their faces they | are dangerous people. They may call themselves pacifist, but they don't | know what peace means. They are very argumentative, arrogant, ready to | fight. It almost always happens that a peace protest becomes a | battlefield between the police and the pacifists. The pacifist is not | really the man of peace. He is against war. He is so much against war | that he will be ready to go to war if that is needed. The cause | changes, the war continues." | | We need men of peace, not those who are "against" war, according to | Osho, because the moment you are against something there is a war going | on within you. The man of peace is not a pacifist, he is simply a pool | of inner silence -- he pulsates a new kind of energy into the world in | a new way. "His very way of life is that of grace, that of prayer, that | of compassion. Whomsoever he touches he creates more love energy." | | A majority of New Age ideas and practices in vogue today have been | handed down directly from Helena Blavatsky's "Theosophy," which is a | melding of Classical Paganism with Buddhist and Hindu thought. The | result is an eclectic spiritual synthesis, which includes reincarnation | and karma, astrology, divination and meditation. | | Alice A. Bailey was a Theosophy teacher who left us a large library of | spiritual wisdom. In her book, "The Externalization of the Hierarchy," | she claimed "right and potent action" was required to support a | peaceful position. The following excerpts were written during World War | II: | | "All true and good people are pacifically minded and all hate war. This | is a fact which the academic idealist and pacifist often forgets. Such | people tell us that two wrongs do not make a right; and to meet murder | with murder (which is their definition of war) is sinful; that war is | evil (which no one denies) and that one must not take part in it. They | contend that thinking thoughts of peace and of love can put the world | straight and end the war. Such people fighting the existent fact of | war, usually do little or nothing concrete to right the wrongs which | are responsible for the war, and permit their defense -- personal, | municipal, national and international -- to be undertake by others." | | Baily continues, "I would say to those who preach a passive attitude in | the face of evil and human suffering and who endorse a pacifism which | involves no risks: With what do you propose to fight the forces of | aggression, of treachery, evil and destruction which are today stalking | over our planet? What weapons do you bring to this combat? How will you | begin to stem the onslaught and arrest the whirlwind? Will you use | prayers for peace, and then patiently wait for the forces of good to | fight your battle and God to do the work? I tell you that your prayers | and your wishes are unavailing when divorced from right and potent | action. Your prayers and petitions may reach the throne of God, | symbolically speaking, but then the reply comes forth: The forces of | Light will strengthen your arms and turn the tide in your favor if you | stand up and fight for what you desire. Who will arrest the progress of | aggressive selfishness if the men and women of goodwill rest back upon | their idealism and do naught that is practical to justify their hope or | aid in the materialization of the desired idea. " | | After spending a day studying spiritual writings on war, I turned to | Buddha's Four Noble Truths. | | The First Truth says that life is suffering. We live with continual | neediness accompanied by measures of pain, sadness, sickness and | inevitable old age and death. That's just what is. It's the price of | receiving a human body. | | The Second Truth says we suffer because we live in a constant state of | desire. We desire to exist so we develop ways to survive. We also | desire pleasure and nonexistence which manifests as losing ourselves in | sex, food, entertainment and adventure. | | The Third Truth says we have the ability to train our mind to generate | levels of satisfaction and freedom. I read this as self-actualized | awareness and meditation/self-hypnosis. The ability to be within the | calm center of the cyclone, thus rising above the first and second | truths. | | The Fourth Truth says we must live a life in which we do not mentally | or physically cause harm to others. This is the only way to keep your | mind undisturbed by remorse, guilt and anger. Through application of | the third and fourth truths we can rise above suffering. | | Without worrying about being spiritual correct, what is your response | to these different ideas? What does your heart say? | | * * * * * | | TO RECEIVE THIS "Master of Life" COLUMN WEEKLY AT YOUR E-MAIL ADDRESS, | CLICK ON "REPLY " AND TYPE "SUBSCRIBE" IN THE SUBJECT AREA. (New | Subscribers Only) | | * * * * | | A new chapter of the FREE book, "HOW TO FIX EVERYTHING IN YOUR LIFE AT | ONCE" is now posted at: | http://home.earthlink.net/~soaringspirit/html/fixyourlife.html | | * * * * * | | CDs and VIDEO SUGGESTIONS: | | ZEN ZAPPER: Suggestion examples: From this moment on self-liberation is | a priority in your life. You flow with life, never opposing things by | resisting them. You yield, realigning the force of your opposition and | using it to your advantage. You accept that what is, is. You accept the | things you cannot change. You develop detached mind. | Zen Zapper (CD--74 minutes) ................. RBZ108--$20. | | Tara's DESTINY OF PEACE VIDEO MEDITATION | Peace begins with you. A video meditation to create peaceful group | consciousness. Relax in front of your TV set, soften your focus, and | drift on beautiful visual images as Tara takes you on a journey to | remove stress, program peace within, and project peaceful vibrations to | our planet. Pray and meditate along with others to generate a deeper | calling of the human spirit. This beautiful video meditation was shot | by multiple Emmy Award winner Shane Stanley. | Destiny of Peace Meditation (35 Minutes-VHS) ................ | VHS801--$15. | | Say "Yes" to Life Zapper (CD--74 minutes)--RBZ131--$20. | Zen Liberation 74-Minute Course (CD)--RB105--$20. | Master of Life Video Hypnosis (VHS)--VHS105--$24.98 | Unstress Video Hypnosis (VHS)--VHS107--$24.98 | | * * * * * | | TOLL-FREE ORDER NUMBER: 1-800-421-6603 / Or send a fax and credit card | info to: 1-818-706-3606 / Online ordering at www.prohypnosis.com / All | Dick Sutphen "Master of Life" columns can be read at | www.dicksutphen.com / click on "Articles & Columns" | | * * * * * | | Astrology, geographical-location charts and special computerized | reports to help you create your own reality are available by clicking: | | http://www.dicksutphen.com/html/astrology_charts___articles.html | | * * * * * | | Dick Sutphen's "Master of Life Column" is copyrighted 2003, Malibu, CA. | To be removed from this mailing list, click your e-mail reply button | and type the word REMOVE in the "Subject" slot. Thank you for your | interest in our communications. From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Apr 4 21:28:28 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id VAA26774; Fri, 4 Apr 2003 21:26:00 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2003 21:26:00 -0800 Message-ID: <00bf01c2fad8$674bdc60$1202a8c0@WorkGroup> From: "Dave N." To: References: <5.2.0.9.2.20030402101812.026b8ce8@pop.mindspring.com> <00d001c2f951$765bf380$1202a8c0@WorkGroup> <005901c2fa01$1051c1e0$1202a8c0@WorkGroup> <052701c2fa9a$a8296d30$42233941@annamort> Subject: Re: And it ain't over yet... Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2003 13:11:22 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_00AB_01C2FAAB.B0271C60" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 X-HotPOP: ----------------------------------------------- Sent By HotPOP.com FREE Email Get your FREE POP email at www.HotPOP.com ----------------------------------------------- Resent-Message-ID: <"x8-Kc3.0.CY6.eZcZ-"@mx1> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/1602 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00AB_01C2FAAB.B0271C60 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Anna, Very good! Glad to see you're finally learning how to cite sources. I don't understand what your point in posting this is though - Is it to show that the coalition forces are intentionally killing civilians? Because if it is, it shows we are horribly inept at it, considering the small number of dead. Preliminary reports are that we have killed ~100,000 Iraqi Fedayeen, regular army and Republican Guard, so it's obviously not due to incompetence on our military's part. Also, upon reading the article there's some important things to note: "Terrifying film of women and children later emerged after Reuters and the Associated Press were permitted by the Iraqi authorities to take their cameras into the town. " These are the same Iraqi authorities that claim we had not taken Baghdad (formerly Saddam) international airport even though we could see live video from within that airport, that they were winning the war, etc. etc. There have also been scores or reports that Iraqis say one thing on camera and another thing off camera, due to their fear of being killed by Baath party thugs. All of this information in this article was vetted by those nazi-esq bastards. Also, until there's time to do chemical analysis, we can't tell who's bombs killed those people. Since Saddam has killed untold thousands of his people before, it's not much of a stretch to think he could have killed these as well for propaganda purposes. When the dust settles, we'll know more. I'm betting you and your ilk are going to have to work a hell of a lot harder to dig up anti-American dirt when it does, because there will be a Niagara of information coming out of that area pointing to just how evil Saddam's regime was, and to just how noble the coalition was. We will have to wait and see. Nice try, Dave! PS You need to remove the 'reply to' in your email client. If you do, responses to your posts will automatically go to the list instead of automatically going to you. If you do this (as I have pointed out in the past) you won't get responses accidentally sent to you instead of the list, like this one did. When the oppressed joyfully embrace their liberators, remember those who acted to keep them enslaved. ----- Original Message ----- From: Anna M* To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Sent: Friday, April 04, 2003 6:09 AM Subject: And it ain't over yet... -----Original Message----- From: George Paxinos [mailto:geopax@bluewin.ch] Sent: 02 April 2003 20:43 To: friends Subject: Children killed and maimed in bomb attack on town THIS IS BUSH & BLAIR'S SLAUGHTER-FOR-PROFIT George Home > News > World > Middle East Children killed and maimed in bomb attack on town By Robert Fisk in Baghdad and Justin Huggler 02 April 2003 At least 11 civilians, nine of them children, were killed in Hilla in central Iraq yesterday, according to reporters in the town who said they appeared to be the victims of bombing. Reporters from the Reuters news agency said they counted the bodies of 11 civilians and two Iraqi fighters in the Babylon suburb, 50 miles south of Baghdad. Nine of the dead were children, one a baby. Hospital workers said as many as 33 civilians were killed. Terrifying film of women and children later emerged after Reuters and the Associated Press were permitted by the Iraqi authorities to take their cameras into the town. Their pictures ­ the first by Western news agencies from the Iraqi side of the battlefront ­ showed babies cut in half and children with amputation wounds, apparently caused by American shellfire and cluster bombs. Much of the videotape was too terrible to show on television and the agencies' Baghdad editors felt able to send only a few minutes of a 21-minute tape that included a father holding out pieces of his baby and screaming "cowards, cowards'' into the camera. Two lorryloads of bodies, including women in flowered dresses, could be seen outside the Hilla hospital. Dr Nazem el-Adali, who was trained in Edinburgh, said almost all the patients were victims of cluster bombs dropped around Hella and in the neighbouring village of Mazarak. One woman, Alia Mukhtaff, is seen lying wounded on a bed; she lost six of her children and her husband in the attacks. Another man is seen with an arm missing, and a second man, Majeed Djelil, whose wife and two of his children were killed, can be seen sitting next to his third and surviving child, whose foot is missing. The mortuary of the hospital, a butcher's shop of chopped up corpses, is seen briefly in the tape. Iraqi officials have been insisting for 48 hours that the Americans have used cluster bombs on civilians in the region but this is the first time that evidence supporting these claims has come from Western news agencies. Most of the wounded said they were hit by American munitions and one man described how an American vehicle fired a shell into his family home. "I could see an American flag,'' he says. One of the editors in Baghdad, a European, when asked why he would not send the full videotape to London, wound the pictures on to two mutilated corpses of babies. "How could we ever send this?'' he said. Further south, there was heavy fire around the town of Diwaniyah, about 80 miles south-east of Baghdad. It was the second day of close combat between American forces and Iraqi troops, after fighting in the town of Hindiyah on Monday. It appeared that US troops were looking to take on some Iraqi forces after initially advancing largely unopposed through vast tracts of empty desert but deliberately avoiding population centres. According to reports from Diwaniyah, US Marines deliberately provoked a firefight by moving into an area where they had come under fire before. The marines came under heavy fire from rocket-propelled grenades and machine-guns. Iraqi Republican Guard troops and other fighters fired on the advancing marines from fortified bunkers and positions in buildings and behind vehicles. Corporal Patrick Irish of the US Marines said: "They were shooting from buildings, from dug-out positions, from holes, from everything. They would jump out to shoot. They were behind buses. You name it, they were there." Although the Iraqis were outgunned by the heavily armed marines, the firefight went on for about 10 hours, according to Lieutenant-Colonel B P McCoy of the US Marines. They used 155mm artillery to destroy Iraqi tanks and mortar positions. "We hammered them pretty hard," said Lt-Col McCoy. At least 75 Iraqis were killed in fighting on Diwaniyah's outskirts and at least 44 soldiers, including some Republican Guard officers, were taken prisoner, Lt-Col McCoy said. There was no report of American casualties. North-east of Diwaniyah there was heavy bombing yesterday near Kut to clear the way for ground forces, according to the US military. American marines also claim to have "secured" an air base at Qalat Sukkar, south-east of Kut, which US forces want to use as a staging ground. Overnight, planes bombed the area around Hindiyah. Ominously, there were also reports of missiles streaking towards the Shia holy city of Kerbala, where any damage to the shrines could set the Shia Muslim world alight. The Iraqi military said its troops were fighting US forces inside Nasiriyah and on the outskirts of the city, and had inflicted heavy casualties. "The blood of the enemy is flowing profusely," a military spokesman said at a press briefing, who claimed that fighting was still going on as he spoke. He claimed the forces fighting in and around Nasiriyah included Republican Guards, regular Iraqi army soldiers, volunteers from across the Arab world, and ordinary Iraqi citizens. US Marines fought their way across the city's bridges last Tuesday but did not take control of the city. Since then, Iraqi forces have made several ambushes in the area. The Iraqi spokesman also said US forces launched an attack on the Shia holy city of Najaf yesterday, and claimed fighters inside the city had forced them to retreat after suffering heavy losses. ----- Original Message ----- From: "GKK" To: Sent: Friday, April 04, 2003 1:36 AM Subject: Re: A war game web site > > No, you presented an assortment of unreferenced, unverifiable and wholly > unsubstanciated > > bullshit. > > Yes. Like that uranium is more radioactive than radium. > > Something that most people know. > > Uranium is heavier than radium. Do you know what does this mean???? > > > > > Pray tell, what should I watch?!? Al-Jazeria?!?!? > > I didn't suggest Al-Jazeria. You thought that. I wonder why. > > You should know that life isn't black or white. > > It is grey. > > > > > I watch Fox, CNN and MSNBC, I listen to NPR, ABC and WOR and I read > Reuters, the LA Times, the > > NY Times and Debka. I can do this because I have news on 10 hours a day > and I speed read. > > Good for you, but those are still full of US propaganda. > > > > > Oh, you mean decide it means something other than what the author > wrote?!?! > > No. I mean to think for yourself what is true and what is obvious > propaganda. > > Compare your sources and their messages. > > Of course if you read only propaganda, especially when this is one-side > propaganda, you can't do that. > > > > > At least this 'idiot' can bother to do a search on Google and find major > news sources to back up > > his opinions, unlike some other lazy fucking paranoid communist morons I > know. > > When I gave you a link you just ignored it and tried to make it seem fool. > > It was enough to understand your way of thinking and acting. > > > > What would be the use of giving thousands of links? > > Do you think there aren't? > > Go on. Search on Google just to see they exist and you just refuse to see > them although they are in front of your eyes. > > Again you try to humiliate me instead of proving that actually I am a lazy > ass. > > > > Me a communist???? > > HAHAHAHA. > > Yeah. Right. That great danger again. > > > > > Oh crap, I thought that would be NEWS!!! Instead it's just more > PROPAGANDA!!!! > > No propaganda. Just a little game for those that can appreciate that. > > > > > > Thanks for proving my point! > > Thank you too. > > > > Dave Narby > > A lazy fucking paranoid communist moron > > > > ------=_NextPart_000_00AB_01C2FAAB.B0271C60 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Anna,
 
Very good!  Glad to see you're = finally=20 learning how to cite sources.  I = don't=20 understand what your point in posting this is though - Is it to show = that the=20 coalition forces are intentionally killing civilians?  Because if it is, it shows we are horribly inept = at it,=20 considering the small number of dead.  Preliminary reports are that = we have=20 killed ~100,000 Iraqi Fedayeen, regular army and Republican Guard, so = it's=20 obviously not due to incompetence on our military's part.
 
Also, upon reading the article there's = some=20 important things to note:
 
"Terrifying film of women and children = later=20 emerged after Reuters and the Associated Press = were=20 permitted by the Iraqi authorities to take their cameras = into the=20 town. "
 
These are the same Iraqi authorities = that claim we=20 had not taken Baghdad (formerly Saddam) international airport even = though we=20 could see live video from within that airport, that they were winning = the war,=20 etc. etc.  There have also been = scores or=20 reports that Iraqis say one thing on camera and another thing off = camera, due to=20 their fear of being killed by Baath party thugs.  All of this = information=20 in this article was vetted by those nazi-esq bastards.
 
Also, until there's time to do chemical = analysis,=20 we can't tell who's bombs killed those people.  Since Saddam = has=20 killed untold thousands of his people before, it's not much of a stretch = to=20 think he could have killed these as well for propaganda = purposes.
 
When the dust settles, we'll know = more.  I'm=20 betting you and your ilk are going to have to work a hell of a lot = harder to dig=20 up anti-American dirt when it does, because there will be a Niagara = of=20 information coming out of that area pointing to just how = evil Saddam's=20 regime was, and to just how noble the coalition was.  We will have = to wait=20 and see.
 
Nice try,
 
Dave!
 
PS You need to remove the 'reply to' in your email client.  If = you do,=20 responses to your posts will automatically go to the list instead of=20 automatically going to you.  If you do this (as I have pointed out = in the=20 past) you won't get responses accidentally sent to you instead of the = list, like=20 this one did.
 
When the oppressed joyfully embrace their liberators, remember = those who=20 acted to keep them enslaved.
 
 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Anna=20 M*
Sent: Friday, April 04, 2003 = 6:09=20 AM
Subject: And it ain't over = yet...

-----Original=20 Message-----
From: George Paxinos [mailto:geopax@bluewin.ch] =
Sent:=20 02 April 2003 20:43
To: friends
Subject: Children = killed=20 and maimed in bomb attack on town

THIS IS BUSH & BLAIR'S=20 SLAUGHTER-FOR-PROFIT

George

Home <http://www.independent.co.uk/&= gt;=20    > News <http://news.independent.co.uk/>=20   > World <http://news.independent.co.u= k/world>=20   > Middle East=20 <http://news.independent.co.uk/world/middle_east/>=20  
Children = killed and=20 maimed in bomb attack on = town

By Robert Fisk in Baghdad and Justin Huggler

02 April=20 2003

At least 11 civilians, nine of them children, were killed in Hilla = in=20 central Iraq yesterday, according to reporters in the town who said = they=20 appeared to be the victims of bombing.


Reporters from the = Reuters news=20 agency said they counted the bodies of 11 civilians and two Iraqi = fighters in=20 the Babylon suburb, 50 miles south of Baghdad. Nine of the dead were = children,=20 one a baby. Hospital workers said as many as 33 civilians were killed. =

Terrifying film of women and children later = emerged=20 after Reuters and the Associated Press were permitted by the Iraqi = authorities=20 to take their cameras into the town. Their pictures ­ the first by = Western=20 news agencies from the Iraqi side of the battlefront ­ showed = babies cut=20 in half and children with amputation wounds, apparently caused by = American=20 shellfire and cluster bombs.

Much of the videotape was too = terrible to=20 show on television and the agencies' Baghdad editors felt able to send = only a=20 few minutes of a 21-minute tape that included a father holding out = pieces of=20 his baby and screaming "cowards, cowards'' into the camera. Two = lorryloads of=20 bodies, including women in flowered dresses, could be seen outside the = Hilla=20 hospital.


Dr Nazem = el-Adali, who=20 was trained in Edinburgh, said almost all the patients were victims of = cluster=20 bombs dropped around Hella and in the neighbouring village of Mazarak. = One=20 woman, Alia Mukhtaff, is seen lying wounded on a bed; she lost six of = her=20 children and her husband in the attacks. Another man is seen with an = arm=20 missing, and a second man, Majeed Djelil, whose wife and two of his = children=20 were killed, can be seen sitting next to his third and surviving = child, whose=20 foot is missing. The mortuary of the hospital, a butcher's shop of = chopped up=20 corpses, is seen briefly in the tape.

Iraqi officials have = been=20 insisting for 48 hours that the Americans have used cluster bombs on = civilians=20 in the region but this is the first time that evidence supporting = these claims=20 has come from Western news agencies. Most of the wounded said they = were hit by=20 American munitions and one man described how an American vehicle fired = a shell=20 into his family home. "I could see an American flag,'' he says. =

One of=20 the editors in Baghdad, a European, when asked why he would not send = the full=20 videotape to London, wound the pictures on to two mutilated corpses of = babies.=20 "How could we ever send this?'' he said.

Further south, there = was=20 heavy fire around the town of Diwaniyah, about 80 miles south-east of = Baghdad.=20 It was the second day of close combat between American forces and = Iraqi=20 troops, after fighting in the town of Hindiyah on Monday. It appeared = that US=20 troops were looking to take on some Iraqi forces after initially = advancing=20 largely unopposed through vast tracts of empty desert but deliberately = avoiding population centres.

According to reports from = Diwaniyah, US=20 Marines deliberately provoked a firefight by moving into an area where = they=20 had come under fire before. The marines came under heavy fire from=20 rocket-propelled grenades and machine-guns.

Iraqi Republican = Guard=20 troops and other fighters fired on the advancing marines from = fortified=20 bunkers and positions in buildings and behind vehicles. Corporal = Patrick Irish=20 of the US Marines said: "They were shooting from buildings, from = dug-out=20 positions, from holes, from everything. They would jump out to shoot. = They=20 were behind buses. You name it, they were there."

Although the = Iraqis=20 were outgunned by the heavily armed marines, the firefight went on for = about=20 10 hours, according to Lieutenant-Colonel B P McCoy of the US Marines. = They=20 used 155mm artillery to destroy Iraqi tanks and mortar positions. "We = hammered=20 them pretty hard," said Lt-Col McCoy. At least 75 Iraqis were killed = in=20 fighting on Diwaniyah's outskirts and at least 44 soldiers, including = some=20 Republican Guard officers, were taken prisoner, Lt-Col McCoy said. = There was=20 no report of American casualties.

North-east of Diwaniyah = there was=20 heavy bombing yesterday near Kut to clear the way for ground forces, = according=20 to the US military. American marines also claim to have "secured" an = air base=20 at Qalat Sukkar, south-east of Kut, which US forces want to use as a = staging=20 ground.

Overnight, planes bombed the area around Hindiyah. = Ominously,=20 there were also reports of missiles streaking towards the Shia holy = city of=20 Kerbala, where any damage to the shrines could set the Shia Muslim = world=20 alight.

The Iraqi military said its troops were fighting US = forces=20 inside Nasiriyah and on the outskirts of the city, and had inflicted = heavy=20 casualties. "The blood of the enemy is flowing profusely," a military=20 spokesman said at a press briefing, who claimed that fighting was = still going=20 on as he spoke. He claimed the forces fighting in and around Nasiriyah = included Republican Guards, regular Iraqi army soldiers, volunteers = from=20 across the Arab world, and ordinary Iraqi citizens.

US Marines = fought=20 their way across the city's bridges last Tuesday but did not take = control of=20 the city. Since then, Iraqi forces have made several ambushes in the = area.=20

The Iraqi spokesman also said US forces launched an attack on = the Shia=20 holy city of Najaf yesterday, and claimed fighters inside the city had = forced=20 them to retreat after suffering heavy losses. =
----- Original Message -----
From: "GKK" <trelos_epistimonas@hotmail.com>
To: <vortexb-l@eskimo.com>
Sent: Friday, April 04, 2003 1:36 = AM
Subject: Re: A war game web = site

> = > No,=20 you presented an assortment of unreferenced, unverifiable and = wholly
>=20 unsubstanciated
> > bullshit.
>
> Yes. Like that = uranium=20 is more radioactive than radium.
>
> Something that most = people=20 know.
>
> Uranium is heavier than radium. Do you know = what does=20 this mean????
>
>
>
> > Pray tell, what = should I=20 watch?!?  Al-Jazeria?!?!?
>
> I didn't suggest = Al-Jazeria.=20 You thought that. I wonder why.
>
> You should know that = life=20 isn't black or white.
>
> It is grey.
>
> =
>=20
> > I watch Fox, CNN and MSNBC, I listen to NPR, ABC and WOR = and I=20 read
> Reuters, the LA Times, the
> > NY Times and = Debka. =20 I can do this because I have news on 10 hours a day
> and I = speed=20 read.
>
> Good for you, but those are still full of US=20 propaganda.
>
>
>
> > Oh, you mean = decide it=20 means something other than what the author
> wrote?!?!
> =
>=20 No. I mean to think for yourself what is true and what is = obvious
>=20 propaganda.
>
> Compare your sources and their = messages.
>=20
> Of course if you read only propaganda, especially when this = is=20 one-side
> propaganda, you can't do that.
>
> =
>=20
> > At least this 'idiot' can bother to do a search on = Google and=20 find major
> news sources to back up
> > his opinions, = unlike=20 some other lazy fucking paranoid communist morons I
> = know.
>=20
> When I gave you a link you just ignored it and tried to make = it seem=20 fool.
>
> It was enough to understand your way of = thinking and=20 acting.
>
>
>
> What would be the use of = giving=20 thousands of links?
>
> Do you think there = aren't?
>=20
> Go on. Search on Google just to see they exist and you just = refuse to=20 see
> them although they are in front of your eyes.
> =
>=20 Again you try to humiliate me instead of proving that actually I am a=20 lazy
> ass.
>
>
>
> Me a=20 communist????
>
> HAHAHAHA.
>
> Yeah. Right. = That=20 great danger again.
>
>
>
> > Oh crap, I = thought=20 that would be NEWS!!!  Instead it's just more
>=20 PROPAGANDA!!!!
>
> No propaganda. Just a little game for = those=20 that can appreciate that.
>
>
>
>
> = >=20 Thanks for proving my point!
>
> Thank you too.
> =
>=20
> > Dave Narby
>
> A lazy fucking paranoid = communist=20 moron
>
>
>
> = ------=_NextPart_000_00AB_01C2FAAB.B0271C60-- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Apr 4 21:32:38 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id VAA28618; Fri, 4 Apr 2003 21:30:01 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2003 21:30:01 -0800 Message-ID: <00db01c2fad9$ddb0e480$1202a8c0@WorkGroup> From: "Dave N." To: References: <5.2.0.9.2.20030402101812.026b8ce8@pop.mindspring.com> <00d001c2f951$765bf380$1202a8c0@WorkGroup> <005901c2fa01$1051c1e0$1202a8c0@WorkGroup> Subject: Re: A war game web site Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2003 13:37:24 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 X-HotPOP: ----------------------------------------------- Sent By HotPOP.com FREE Email Get your FREE POP email at www.HotPOP.com ----------------------------------------------- Resent-Message-ID: <"Nsb3g.0._-6.PdcZ-"@mx1> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/1603 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Telos, | > No, you presented an assortment of unreferenced, unverifiable and wholly | unsubstantiated | > bullshit. | | Yes. Like that uranium is more radioactive than radium. | | Something that most people know. | | Uranium is heavier than radium. Do you know what does this mean???? Please quit jerking around and make your damn point. If you have one, which is increasingly doubtful. | > Pray tell, what should I watch?!? Al-Jazeria?!?!? | | I didn't suggest Al-Jazeria. You thought that. I wonder why. | | You should know that life isn't black or white. | | It is grey. Inaccurate. Some things are gray, some things are black and some things are white. Everything is somewhere in that spectrum. You still haven't answered my question of where I should get my news from. | > I watch Fox, CNN and MSNBC, I listen to NPR, ABC and WOR and I read | Reuters, the LA Times, the | > NY Times and Debka. I can do this because I have news on 10 hours a day | and I speed read. | | Good for you, but those are still full of US propaganda. Strangely enough, the LA Times frequently agrees with your point of view (and to a lesser extent, Reuters, NPR, the NY Times and the BBC)! | > Oh, you mean decide it means something other than what the author | wrote?!?! | | No. I mean to think for yourself what is true and what is obvious | propaganda. | | Compare your sources and their messages. | | Of course if you read only propaganda, especially when this is one-side | propaganda, you can't do that. Since none of us are there, in lieu of live video we have to go with A PREPONDERANCE OF EVIDENCE. | > At least this 'idiot' can bother to do a search on Google and find major | news sources to back up | > his opinions, unlike some other lazy fucking paranoid communist morons I | know. | | When I gave you a link you just ignored it and tried to make it seem fool. | | It was enough to understand your way of thinking and acting. THE LINK WAS TO A POLITICAL SATIRE SITE!!! IT HAD *NO* INFORMATION WHATSOEVER AND PRESENTED A TOTALLY ONE SIDED OPINION!!! | What would be the use of giving thousands of links? It would show there was more to your argument than your less than worthless opinions! | Do you think there aren't? OBVIOUSLY YES. Prove me wrong! | Go on. Search on Google just to see they exist and you just refuse to see | them although they are in front of your eyes. That's *your* job, you lazy bastard! IT'S YOUR JOB TO MAKE YOUR OWN POINT! | Again you try to humiliate me instead of proving that actually I am a lazy | ass. You just proved it, because you asked me to do it FOR YOU!!! | Me a communist???? Ok, maybe you're a fascist or an anarchist. Whatever. | > Oh crap, I thought that would be NEWS!!! Instead it's just more | PROPAGANDA!!!! | | No propaganda. Just a little game for those that can appreciate that. You know, maybe you're simply ignorant of the term. Here: propaganda noun [U] MAINLY DISAPPROVING information, ideas, opinions or images, often only giving one part of an argument, which are broadcast, published or in some other way spread with the intention of influencing people's opinions: http://dictionary.cambridge.org/define.asp?key=63437&dict=CALD http://www.onelook.com/?w=propaganda&ls=a BTW You're Greek right? Because that explains a lot, if you are. The Greek media is well documented as one of the most anti-American in the world: http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=ISO-8859-1&as_qdr=all&q=+%22anti-american%22+%22greek+ media%22 See, I did a Google search to back up my claim! Not so hard, was it? You try it! You are so weak! Dave Narby When the oppressed joyfully embrace their liberators, remember those who acted to keep them enslaved. From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Apr 4 21:44:53 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id VAA03175; Fri, 4 Apr 2003 21:43:16 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2003 21:43:16 -0800 Message-ID: <008701c2fad1$324e5b20$1202a8c0@WorkGroup> From: "Dave N." To: References: <3E8BAC0F.5060902@ghiocel.com> <5.2.0.9.2.20030403175148.02690178@pop.mindspring.com> <5.2.0.9.2.20030404094628.02693100@pop.mindspring.com> Subject: Re: Najaf celebrates arrival of US troops OR angry Najif crowds attack U.S. troops Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2003 12:33:36 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 X-HotPOP: ----------------------------------------------- Sent By HotPOP.com FREE Email Get your FREE POP email at www.HotPOP.com ----------------------------------------------- Resent-Message-ID: <"k1ePP1.0.Tn.qpcZ-"@mx1> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/1604 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed, This does nothing to change the fact that you blatantly took one specific quote out of that article and used it totally out of context to bolster your argument. That's weak, man! Dave! When the oppressed joyfully embrace their liberators, remember those who acted to keep them enslaved. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jed Rothwell" To: ; Sent: Friday, April 04, 2003 9:49 AM Subject: Re: Najaf celebrates arrival of US troops OR angry Najif crowds attack U.S. troops | Dave N. wrote: | | >You quote the NY Times as reporting the opposite of the Washington post, | >but anyone who reads | >that article will see that this clearly is far from true! | | The events described in the article were broadcast on CNN. There is no | question the account is true, but it may be that another set of events took | place elsewhere in the town, or at an earlier time. | | | >Frankly, IMO anything from the New York Times is in question anyway, a it | >appears they have | >their own problems with accurate reporting: | >http://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/002841.php | > | >Jed, shame on you! Bad lefty! | | Both the New York Times and the Washington Post have strongly supported the | war, so neither can be described as "leftist." | | I think the world is more complicated and nuanced than you realize. | | - Jed | | From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Apr 5 03:53:07 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id DAA18901; Sat, 5 Apr 2003 03:49:52 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 5 Apr 2003 03:49:52 -0800 Message-ID: <007a01c2fb69$611acf40$468f3a41@annamort> Reply-To: "Anna M*" From: "Anna M*" To: "MetaExistence" Subject: A matter of conscience... Red Cross terrified.. Date: Sat, 5 Apr 2003 04:49:09 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id DAA18869 Resent-Message-ID: <"HAZ0M.0.9d4.WBiZ-"@mx1> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/1605 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Peace-activist nun cites Bush in sabotage defense By Keith Coffman DENVER, April 3 2003 (Reuters) - A Catholic nun told a U.S. court on Thursday she was obeying President George W. Bush's call to dismantle weapons of mass destruction when she and two other sisters trespassed at an unmanned missile silo in northern Colorado. Sister Carolyn Gilbert and two other Dominican sisters, Jackie Hudson and Ardeth Platte, are charged with sabotage and malicious destruction of property relating to an Oct. 6 break-in at the Minuteman III silo near Greeley, Colorado. Gilbert and Platte are peace activists in Baltimore, Maryland and Hudson does similar work in Bremerton, Washington. Since the trial opened on Monday, peace activists have packed the federal courtroom in downtown Denver to support the nuns. The three have said they cut cables and made the sign of the cross on the lid of the silo with their own blood before they were arrested by military police. Platte told the court in an opening statement on Tuesday they wanted to protect the children of Iraq with a "symbolic disarmament." "Our president has asked that weapons of mass destruction be destroyed," Gilbert told the court on Thursday. "I had a duty, a responsibility and privilege to try and stop a crime, not only under God's law, but under U.S. and international law," she said. Bush, backed by Britain, launched a war against Iraq on March 19 for what he said was President Saddam Hussein's refusal to dismantle weapons of mass destruction. The nuns have been in jail since October after refusing to be released on bond. U.S. District Judge Robert Blackburn has said the women could not make use of the Nuremberg defense, which allows a citizen to break the law in order to prevent a crime against humanity. If convicted, the women face up to 30 years in jail and fines of up to $250,000. From: http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/N03324495.htm ------------------------ Red Cross Horrified by Number of Dead Civilians Canadian Press Friday 4 April 2003 OTTAWA — Red Cross doctors who visited southern Iraq this week saw "incredible" levels of civilian casualties including a truckload of dismembered women and children, a spokesman said Thursday from Baghdad. Roland Huguenin, one of six International Red Cross workers in the Iraqi capital, said doctors were horrified by the casualties they found in the hospital in Hilla, about 160 kilometres south of Baghdad. "There has been an incredible number of casualties with very, very serious wounds in the region of Hilla," Huguenin said in a interview by satellite telephone. "We saw that a truck was delivering dozens of totally dismembered dead bodies of women and children. It was an awful sight. It was really very difficult to believe this was happening." Huguenin said the dead and injured in Hilla came from the village of Nasiriyah, where there has been heavy fighting between American troops and Iraqi soldiers, and appeared to be the result of "bombs, projectiles." "At this stage we cannot comment on the nature of what happened exactly at that place . . . but it was definitely a different pattern from what we had seen in Basra or Baghdad. "There will be investigations I am sure." Baghdad and Basra are coping relatively well with the flow of wounded, said Huguenin, estimating that Baghdad hospitals have been getting about 100 wounded a day. Most of the wounded in the two large cities have suffered superficial shrapnel wounds, with only about 15 per cent requiring internal surgery, he said. But the pattern in Hilla was completely different. "In the case of Hilla, everybody had very serious wounds and many, many of them small kids and women. We had small toddlers of two or three years of age who had lost their legs, their arms. We have called this a horror." At least 400 people were taken to the Hilla hospital over a period of two days, he said -- far beyond its capacity. "Doctors worked around the clock to do as much as they could. They just had to manage, that was all." The city is no longer accessible, he added. Red Cross staff are also concerned about what may be happening in other smaller centres south of Baghdad. "We do not know what is going on in Najaf and Kabala. It has become physically impossible for us to reach out to those cities because the major road has become a zone of combat." The Red Cross was able to claim one significant success this week: it played a key role in re-establishing water supplies at Basra. Power for a water-pumping station had been accidentally knocked out in the attack on the city, leaving about a million people without water. Iraqi technicians couldn't reach the station to repair it because it was under coalition control. The Red Cross was able to negotiate safe passage for a group of Iraqi engineers who crossed the fire line and made repairs. Basra now has 90 per cent of its normal water supply, said Huguenin. Huguenin, a Swiss, is one of six international Red Cross workers still in Baghdad. The team includes two Canadians, Vatche Arslanian of Oromocto, N.B., and Kassandra Vartell of Calgary. The Red Cross expects the humanitarian crisis in Iraq to grow and is calling for donations to help cope. The Red Cross Web site is: http://www.redcross.ca/ (In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107, this material is distributed without profit to those who have expressed a prior interest in receiving the included information for research and educational purposes.) From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Apr 5 05:42:53 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id FAA02689; Sat, 5 Apr 2003 05:38:44 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 5 Apr 2003 05:38:44 -0800 Message-ID: <014801c2fb78$895806d0$468f3a41@annamort> Reply-To: "Anna M*" From: "Anna M*" To: "MetaExistence" Subject: Wag the dog... Date: Sat, 5 Apr 2003 06:37:33 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id FAA02565 Resent-Message-ID: <"ASTdZ1.0.yf.anjZ-"@mx1> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/1606 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: http://www.cbc.ca/stories/2003/04/04/sahhaf040403 U.S. 'wags the dog' with lies, Iraq says Last Updated Fri, 04 Apr 2003 19:50:35 BAGHDAD - Iraq's information minister says Iraqi troops have isolated five American and British units near Baghdad and stopped them from advancing on the capital. INDEPTH: Iraq Mohammed Saeed Al-Sahhaf Mohammed Saeed Al-Sahhaf told a news conference in Baghdad Friday that reports of recent coalition advances on the capital are an American invention. "What they have done yesterday and this morning is exactly what happened in that film Wag the Dog," he said. It is a reference to a 1998 movie in which a public relations expert works with the White House to make Americans believe the country is fighting and winning a war. Al-Sahhaf said the capture of the Baghdad airport by U.S. troops is just a "show of muscle." The information minister said Iraqi Republican Guard troops engaged coalition paratroopers north of the city early Friday morning. He said the Iraqi forces destroyed 11 tanks and eight armoured personnel carriers. Al-Sahhaf also made a cryptic statement, saying Iraqi forces will perform an "unconventional act" on coalition troops Friday night. Asked whether that meant using chemical or biological weapons, he said, "What I meant are commando and martyrdom operations in a very new, creative way." Written by CBC News Online staff H e a d l i n e s : W o r l d Coalition troops in heart of Baghdad Bodies of 8 U.S. soldiers identified Saddam on TV, urges Iraqis to resist Cleric urges Iraqis not to interfere: report U.S. troops seize, rename airport near Baghdad U.S. 'wags the dog' with lies, Iraq says Car explodes at coalition checkpoint, killing 5 Thousands flee Baghdad Iraq may 'escalate horrible tactics': Pentagon Bush to visit Northern Ireland with Blair Blair promises postwar Iraq will be run by Iraqis Iraqis in Jordan don't believe TV news of U.S. advance Blair tries to soothe Arab concerns First U.S. journalist killed in Iraq U.S. soldier faces murder charges in grenade attack From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Apr 6 04:50:11 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id EAA11948; Sun, 6 Apr 2003 04:47:05 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 6 Apr 2003 04:47:05 -0700 Message-ID: <045d01c2fc32$27d85ad0$468f3a41@annamort> Reply-To: "Anna M*" From: "Anna M*" To: "MetaExistence" Subject: Unknown unknowns ...etc ..An exercise in logical thinking Date: Sun, 6 Apr 2003 04:46:22 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id EAA11854 Resent-Message-ID: <"Ov8Oy3.0.dw2.uE1a-"@mx1> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/1607 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: < And it will be known to you, Probably before we decide it, But it will be known. > One can only wonder what Rumi had in mind, WWIII? Is US Rumsfield a poet while his friend Bushi, a sceenplayer? Enjoy reading t parts from the Rumi's official speeches, Anna The Unknown As we know, There are known knowns. There are things we know we know. We also know There are known unknowns. That is to say We know there are some things We do not know. But there are also unknown unknowns, The ones we don't know We don't know. —Feb. 12, 2002, Department of Defense news briefing Glass Box You know, it's the old glass box at the— At the gas station, Where you're using those little things Trying to pick up the prize, And you can't find it. It's— And it's all these arms are going down in there, And so you keep dropping it And picking it up again and moving it, But— Some of you are probably too young to remember those— Those glass boxes, But— But they used to have them At all the gas stations When I was a kid. —Dec. 6, 2001, Department of Defense news briefing A Confession Once in a while, I'm standing here, doing something. And I think, "What in the world am I doing here?" It's a big surprise. —May 16, 2001, interview with the New York Times Happenings You're going to be told lots of things. You get told things every day that don't happen. It doesn't seem to bother people, they don't— It's printed in the press. The world thinks all these things happen. They never happened. Everyone's so eager to get the story Before in fact the story's there That the world is constantly being fed Things that haven't happened. All I can tell you is, It hasn't happened. It's going to happen. —Feb. 28, 2003, Department of Defense briefing The Digital Revolution Oh my goodness gracious, What you can buy off the Internet In terms of overhead photography! A trained ape can know an awful lot Of what is going on in this world, Just by punching on his mouse For a relatively modest cost! —June 9, 2001, following European trip The Situation Things will not be necessarily continuous. The fact that they are something other than perfectly continuous Ought not to be characterized as a pause. There will be some things that people will see. There will be some things that people won't see. And life goes on. —Oct. 12, 2001, Department of Defense news briefing Clarity I think what you'll find, I think what you'll find is, Whatever it is we do substantively, There will be near-perfect clarity As to what it is. And it will be known, And it will be known to the Congress, And it will be known to you, Probably before we decide it, But it will be known. From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Apr 6 06:47:18 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id GAA19436; Sun, 6 Apr 2003 06:44:45 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 6 Apr 2003 06:44:45 -0700 Message-ID: <054d01c2fc42$a1681830$468f3a41@annamort> Reply-To: "Anna M*" From: "Anna M*" To: "MetaExistence" Subject: liberating US from Iraq Date: Sun, 6 Apr 2003 06:44:18 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id GAA19398 Resent-Message-ID: <"QMVEd1.0.Xl4.Cz2a-"@mx1> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/1608 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hail of Cluster Bombs Leaves a Trail of Death Robert Fisk, The Independent BABYLON, 3 April 2003 — The wounds are vicious and deep, a rash of scarlet spots on the back and thighs or face, the shards of shrapnel from the cluster bombs buried an inch or more in the flesh. The wards of the Hilla teaching hospital are proof that something illegal — something quite outside the Geneva Conventions — occurred in the villages around the city once known as Babylon. The wailing children, the young women with breast and leg wounds, the ten patients upon whom doctors had to perform brain surgery to remove metal from their heads, talk of the days and nights when the explosives fell “like grapes” from the sky. Cluster bombs, the doctors say — and the detritus of the air raids around the hamlets of Nadr and Djifil and Akramin and Mahawil and Mohandesin and Hail Askeri shows — that they are right. Were they American or British aircraft which showered these villages with one of the most lethal weapons of modern warfare? The 61 dead who have passed through the Hilla hospital since Saturday night cannot tell us. Nor can the survivors who, in many cases, were sitting in their homes when the white canisters opened high above their village, spilling thousands of bomblets into the sky, exploding in the air, soaring through windows and doorways to burst indoors or bouncing off the roofs of the concrete huts to blow up later in the roadways. Rahed Hakem remembers that it was 10.30 on Sunday morning, when she was sitting in her home in Nadr, that she heard “the voice of explosions” and looked out of the door to see “the sky raining fire”. She said the bomblets were a black-gray color. Muhammad Moussa described the clusters of “little boxes” that fell out of the sky in the same village and thought they were silver colored. They fell like “small grapefruit,” he said. “If it hadn’t exploded and you touched it, it went off immediately,” he said. “They exploded in the air and on the ground and we still have some in our home, unexploded.” Karima Mizler thought the bomblets had some kind of wires attached to them — perhaps the metal “butterfly” which contains sets of the tiny cluster bombs and which springs open to release them in showers above the ground. Some died at once, mostly women and children, some of whose blackened, decomposing remains lay in the tiny charnel house mortuary at the back of the Hilla hospital. The teaching college received more than 200 wounded since Saturday night — the 61 dead are only those who were brought to the hospital or who died during or after surgery, and many others are believed to have been buried in their home villages — and of these doctors say about 80 percent were civilians. Soldiers there certainly were, at least 40 if these statistics are to be believed, and amid the foul clothing of the dead outside the mortuary door I found a khaki military belt and a combat jacket. But village men can also be soldiers and both they and their wives and daughters insisted there were no military installations around their homes. True or false? Who is to know if a tank or a missile launcher was positioned in a nearby field — as they were along the highway north to Baghdad yesterday? But the Geneva Conventions demand protection for civilians even if they are intermingled with military personnel, and the use of cluster bombs in these villages — even if aimed at military targets — thus crosses the boundaries of international law. So it was that 27-year-old Asil Yamin came to receive those awful round wounds in her back. And so five-year-old Zaman Abbasi was hit in the legs and 48-year-old Samira Abul-Hamza in the eyes, chest and legs. Her son Haidar, a 32-year-old soldier, said that the containers which fell to the ground were white with some red and green sometimes painted on them. ‘’It is like a grenade and they came into the houses,” he said. “Some stayed on the land, others exploded.” Heartbreaking is the only word to describe 10-year-old Maryam Nasr and her five-year-old sister Hoda. Maryam has a patch over her right eye where a piece of bomblet embedded itself, and wounds to the stomach and thighs. I didn’t realize that Hoda, standing by her sister’s bed, was wounded until her mother carefully lifted the little girl’s scarf and long hair to show a deep puncture in the right side of her head, just above her ear, congealed blood sticking to her hair but the wound still gently bleeding. Their mother described how she had been inside her home and heard an explosion and found her daughters in a pool of blood near the door. The little girls alternately smiled and hid when I took their pictures. In other wards, the hideously wounded would try to laugh, to show their bravery. It was a humbling experience. The Iraqi authorities, of course, were all too ready to allow us journalists access to these patients. But there was no way these children and often uneducated parents could manufacture their stories of tragedy and pain. Nor could the Iraqis have faked the scene in Nadr village where the remains of the tiny bomblets littered the ground beside the scorch marks of the explosions, and where could be found the remains of the tiny parachutes upon which the bomb clusters float to the ground once their containers have broken open. A crew from Sky Television even managed to bring a set of bomblet shrapnel back to Baghdad from Nadr with them, the wicked little metal balls that are intended to puncture the human body still locked into their frame like cough sweets in a metal sheath. They were of a black color which glinted silver when held against the light. So were the aircraft that dropped these terrible weapons American or British? The deputy administrator of the Hilla hospital and one of his doctors told a confused tale of military action around the city in recent days, of Apache helicopters that would disgorge Special Forces troops on the road to Karbala; one of their operations — if the hospital personnel are to be believed — went spectacularly wrong one night when militiamen forced them to retreat. Shortly afterward, the cluster bomb raids began, although the villages that were targeted appear to have been on the other side of Hilla to the abortive American attack. One thing was clear: that there is no “front line” in the fighting around Babylon, that US forces strike into the land around the Tigris River by air and then withdraw and that Iraqi forces do much the same in the other direction. Only the Americans and British, of course, have air superiority — indeed there is no evidence that a single Iraqi aircraft has taken off since the start of the Anglo-American invasion — so even the US and British officers back at their Qatar command headquarters can hardly claim the cluster bombs were dropped by Iraq. The most recent raid occurred on Tuesday when 11 civilians were killed — two of them women and three of them children — in a village called Hindiyeh. A man sent to collect the corpses reported to the hospital that the only living thing he found in the area of the bodies was a hen. Iraqi bomb disposal officers were ordered into the villages yesterday afternoon to clear the unexploded ordnance. Needless to say, it is not the first time that cluster bombs have been used against civilians. During Israel’s 1982 siege of West Beirut, its air force dropped cluster bomblets manufactured for the US Navy across several areas of the city, especially in the Fakhani and Ouzai districts, causing civilians ferocious and deep wounds identical to those I saw in Hilla on Tuesday. Angry at the misuse of their weapons, which are designed for use against exclusively military targets, the Reagan administration withheld a shipment of fighter bombers for Israel — then relented a few weeks later and sent the aircraft anyway From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Apr 6 13:58:04 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id NAA27108; Sun, 6 Apr 2003 13:55:30 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 6 Apr 2003 13:55:30 -0700 Message-ID: <006e01c2fc7f$54105d80$1202a8c0@WorkGroup> From: "Dave N." To: References: <054d01c2fc42$a1681830$468f3a41@annamort> Subject: Re: liberating US from Iraq Date: Sun, 6 Apr 2003 16:56:18 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 X-HotPOP: ----------------------------------------------- Sent By HotPOP.com FREE Email Get your FREE POP email at www.HotPOP.com ----------------------------------------------- Resent-Message-ID: <"_WBrd3.0.Vd6.2H9a-"@mx1> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/1611 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Anna, As usual, your ability to distort the truth to fit your own narrow, psychotic world view knows no bounds. It's bad enough that you felt the need to post a 'hit piece' rife with distortions and outright lies from a blatantly biased organization (don't believe me? Check this out: http://argument.independent.co.uk/commentators/ ), but then you go so far as to *even exclude the last paragraph* from the article, evidently because it doesn't fit in with your views: "It is not easy to listen to Iraqi officials condemning the use of illegal weapons when the Iraqi air force has itself dropped poison gas on the Iranian army and on pro-Iranian Kurdish villages during the 1980-88 war against Iran. Outraged claims from Iraqi officials at the abuse of human rights sound like a bell with a very hollow ring. But something terrible happened around Hillah this week, something unforgivable and something contrary to international law. One hesitates, as I say, to talk of human rights in this land of torture but if the Americans and British don't watch out, they are likely to find themselves condemned for what they have always – and rightly – accused Iraq of: war crimes" That paragraph must be why you didn't include a link to it. Keep me honest - compare the full story here: http://argument.independent.co.uk/commentators/story.jsp?story=393458 With what she posted. Dave! PS Aren't you going to keep us posted on your Hitler exoneration project? When the oppressed joyfully embrace their liberators, remember those who acted to keep them enslaved. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Anna M*" To: "MetaExistence" Sent: Sunday, April 06, 2003 9:44 AM Subject: liberating US from Iraq | | Hail of Cluster Bombs Leaves a Trail of Death | Robert Fisk, The Independent | | | | BABYLON, 3 April 2003 — The wounds are vicious and deep, a rash of scarlet spots on the back and thighs or face, the shards of shrapnel from the cluster bombs buried an inch or more in the flesh. The wards of the Hilla teaching hospital are proof that something illegal — something quite outside the Geneva Conventions — occurred in the villages around the city once known as Babylon. | | The wailing children, the young women with breast and leg wounds, the ten patients upon whom doctors had to perform brain surgery to remove metal from their heads, talk of the days and nights when the explosives fell “like grapes” from the sky. Cluster bombs, the doctors say — and the detritus of the air raids around the hamlets of Nadr and Djifil and Akramin and Mahawil and Mohandesin and Hail Askeri shows — that they are right. | | Were they American or British aircraft which showered these villages with one of the most lethal weapons of modern warfare? The 61 dead who have passed through the Hilla hospital since Saturday night cannot tell us. Nor can the survivors who, in many cases, were sitting in their homes when the white canisters opened high above their village, spilling thousands of bomblets into the sky, exploding in the air, soaring through windows and doorways to burst indoors or bouncing off the roofs of the concrete huts to blow up later in the roadways. | | Rahed Hakem remembers that it was 10.30 on Sunday morning, when she was sitting in her home in Nadr, that she heard “the voice of explosions” and looked out of the door to see “the sky raining fire”. She said the bomblets were a black-gray color. Muhammad Moussa described the clusters of “little boxes” that fell out of the sky in the same village and thought they were silver colored. They fell like “small grapefruit,” he said. “If it hadn’t exploded and you touched it, it went off immediately,” he said. “They exploded in the air and on the ground and we still have some in our home, unexploded.” | | Karima Mizler thought the bomblets had some kind of wires attached to them — perhaps the metal “butterfly” which contains sets of the tiny cluster bombs and which springs open to release them in showers above the ground. Some died at once, mostly women and children, some of whose blackened, decomposing remains lay in the tiny charnel house mortuary at the back of the Hilla hospital. | | The teaching college received more than 200 wounded since Saturday night — the 61 dead are only those who were brought to the hospital or who died during or after surgery, and many others are believed to have been buried in their home villages — and of these doctors say about 80 percent were civilians. | | Soldiers there certainly were, at least 40 if these statistics are to be believed, and amid the foul clothing of the dead outside the mortuary door I found a khaki military belt and a combat jacket. But village men can also be soldiers and both they and their wives and daughters insisted there were no military installations around their homes. True or false? Who is to know if a tank or a missile launcher was positioned in a nearby field — as they were along the highway north to Baghdad yesterday? But the Geneva Conventions demand protection for civilians even if they are intermingled with military personnel, and the use of cluster bombs in these villages — even if aimed at military targets — thus crosses the boundaries of international law. | | So it was that 27-year-old Asil Yamin came to receive those awful round wounds in her back. And so five-year-old Zaman Abbasi was hit in the legs and 48-year-old Samira Abul-Hamza in the eyes, chest and legs. Her son Haidar, a 32-year-old soldier, said that the containers which fell to the ground were white with some red and green sometimes painted on them. ‘’It is like a grenade and they came into the houses,” he said. “Some stayed on the land, others exploded.” | | Heartbreaking is the only word to describe 10-year-old Maryam Nasr and her five-year-old sister Hoda. Maryam has a patch over her right eye where a piece of bomblet embedded itself, and wounds to the stomach and thighs. I didn’t realize that Hoda, standing by her sister’s bed, was wounded until her mother carefully lifted the little girl’s scarf and long hair to show a deep puncture in the right side of her head, just above her ear, congealed blood sticking to her hair but the wound still gently bleeding. | | Their mother described how she had been inside her home and heard an explosion and found her daughters in a pool of blood near the door. The little girls alternately smiled and hid when I took their pictures. In other wards, the hideously wounded would try to laugh, to show their bravery. It was a humbling experience. | | The Iraqi authorities, of course, were all too ready to allow us journalists access to these patients. But there was no way these children and often uneducated parents could manufacture their stories of tragedy and pain. Nor could the Iraqis have faked the scene in Nadr village where the remains of the tiny bomblets littered the ground beside the scorch marks of the explosions, and where could be found the remains of the tiny parachutes upon which the bomb clusters float to the ground once their containers have broken open. A crew from Sky Television even managed to bring a set of bomblet shrapnel back to Baghdad from Nadr with them, the wicked little metal balls that are intended to puncture the human body still locked into their frame like cough sweets in a metal sheath. They were of a black color which glinted silver when held against the light. | | So were the aircraft that dropped these terrible weapons American or British? The deputy administrator of the Hilla hospital and one of his doctors told a confused tale of military action around the city in recent days, of Apache helicopters that would disgorge Special Forces troops on the road to Karbala; one of their operations — if the hospital personnel are to be believed — went spectacularly wrong one night when militiamen forced them to retreat. Shortly afterward, the cluster bomb raids began, although the villages that were targeted appear to have been on the other side of Hilla to the abortive American attack. | | One thing was clear: that there is no “front line” in the fighting around Babylon, that US forces strike into the land around the Tigris River by air and then withdraw and that Iraqi forces do much the same in the other direction. Only the Americans and British, of course, have air superiority — indeed there is no evidence that a single Iraqi aircraft has taken off since the start of the Anglo-American invasion — so even the US and British officers back at their Qatar command headquarters can hardly claim the cluster bombs were dropped by Iraq. | | The most recent raid occurred on Tuesday when 11 civilians were killed — two of them women and three of them children — in a village called Hindiyeh. A man sent to collect the corpses reported to the hospital that the only living thing he found in the area of the bodies was a hen. Iraqi bomb disposal officers were ordered into the villages yesterday afternoon to clear the unexploded ordnance. | | Needless to say, it is not the first time that cluster bombs have been used against civilians. During Israel’s 1982 siege of West Beirut, its air force dropped cluster bomblets manufactured for the US Navy across several areas of the city, especially in the Fakhani and Ouzai districts, causing civilians ferocious and deep wounds identical to those I saw in Hilla on Tuesday. Angry at the misuse of their weapons, which are designed for use against exclusively military targets, the Reagan administration withheld a shipment of fighter bombers for Israel — then relented a few weeks later and sent the aircraft anyway | | From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Apr 7 01:47:59 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id BAA12773; Mon, 7 Apr 2003 01:45:21 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2003 01:45:21 -0700 Message-ID: <019201c2fce1$f75f1500$b1013b41@annamort> Reply-To: "Anna M*" From: "Anna M*" To: "MetaExistence" Subject: War with the world? Good! Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2003 01:44:52 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id BAA12745 Resent-Message-ID: <"zNIon3.0.R73.WgJa-"@mx1> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/1612 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: War with the world? Good! >From today's New York Times: "Shortly after Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld issued a stark warning to Iran and Syria last week, declaring that any 'hostile acts' they committed on behalf of Iraq might prompt severe consequences, one of President Bush's closest aides stepped into the Oval Office to warn him that his unpredictable defense secretary had just raised the specter of a broader confrontation. Mr. Bush smiled a moment at the latest example of Mr. Rumsfeld's brazenness, recalled the aide. Then he said one word — 'Good' — and went back to work." Posted on April 6, 2003 @ 11:47AM. Osama Redux The Bush White House is already at it again. Now it's no longer important to find Saddam Hussein, says Ari Fleischer. He told reporters today, "What's important in the president's judgment is that the regime be disarmed and that the regime be changed so the Iraqi people can be free and liberated." P Here come the evangelicals The Guardian reports, "Poised behind the troops, waiting for a signal that Iraq is safe enough for them to operate in, are the evangelical Christians - carrying food in one hand and the Bible in the other." Leading the Christian charge is son of Billy Graham, Franklin Graham, who has described Islam as wicked and violent. Posted on April 4, 2003 @ 10:48AM. osted on April 4, 2003 @ 1:35PM. From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Apr 7 02:21:17 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id CAA22144; Mon, 7 Apr 2003 02:19:28 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2003 02:19:28 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: rick@mail.highsurf.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <006d01c2fc7f$539adf60$1202a8c0@WorkGroup> References: <058701c2fc4d$834ae480$468f3a41@annamort> <006d01c2fc7f$539adf60$1202a8c0@WorkGroup> Date: Sun, 6 Apr 2003 23:18:16 -1000 To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: Re: The war that may end the age Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id CAA22105 Resent-Message-ID: <"vk8WV1.0.xP5.VAKa-"@mx1> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/1613 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Dave - >This is one of the funniest things you've posted to date! This is a COMMUNIST website!!! >Everybody, be sure to read the responses to the article as they're absolutely hysterical. Gee whooda thunkit? Anti-American propaganda from commies?! Got to hand it to her - when it comes to finding sources of material for her posts, she don' need no steenking credibility. Reminds me of Baghdad Bob, holding a press conference declaring there are no American forces at the airport, let alone inside Baghdad. It was incredible, almost equal to a Saturday Night Live skit. BB on the hotel roof one hand, and on the other, an embedded reporter doing his piece in the parade grounds a few blocks away with American forces. Really, I just find it a bit hard to think she really believes or agrees with the nonsense she dredges up. No even marginally sane educated human being could. I think she's just a compulsive troll. But look at us lapping it up. ;) - RM From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Apr 7 10:58:23 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id KAA13991; Mon, 7 Apr 2003 10:55:14 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2003 10:55:14 -0700 Message-ID: <00c101c2fd2e$bd3e60e0$1202a8c0@WorkGroup> From: "Dave N." To: References: <058701c2fc4d$834ae480$468f3a41@annamort> <006d01c2fc7f$539adf60$1202a8c0@WorkGroup> Subject: Re: The war that may end the age Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2003 13:52:48 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 X-HotPOP: ----------------------------------------------- Sent By HotPOP.com FREE Email Get your FREE POP email at www.HotPOP.com ----------------------------------------------- Resent-Message-ID: <"pUx_g1.0.OQ3.1kRa-"@mx1> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/1614 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Rick, Heh, and here I thought I was just a lone voice screaming bloody murder in the darkness... ; ) One report said that at one point if the minister had looked over his shoulder, he actually would have seen 3 Bradley fighting vehicles coming into view..! I keep waiting for him to be standing there, blathering on, and suddenly all the reporters pull way back, which causes him to pause, look around and see the Bushmaster chaingun which is trained on him and... Bup bup bup bup ba-Boom! Splat! Yeaaaaaa!!!!!! That's the only thing I can think that would top that shot of Saddam's statue of him on horseback being pulverized by a tank round. I actually stayed up and saw that live last night, very reminiscent of that famous footage of the Swastika being blown up at the Nuremberg stadium by the Allies at the end of W.W.II. I do have to admit though, I pray they planned the peace as well as they planned the war - and that it goes as well or better. Best, Dave When the oppressed joyfully embrace their liberators, remember those who acted to keep them enslaved. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rick Monteverde" To: Sent: Monday, April 07, 2003 5:18 AM Subject: Re: The war that may end the age | Dave - | | >This is one of the funniest things you've posted to date! This is a COMMUNIST website!!! | >Everybody, be sure to read the responses to the article as they're absolutely hysterical. | | Gee whooda thunkit? Anti-American propaganda from commies?! Got to hand it to her - when it comes to finding sources of material for her posts, she don' need no steenking credibility. Reminds me of Baghdad Bob, holding a press conference declaring there are no American forces at the airport, let alone inside Baghdad. It was incredible, almost equal to a Saturday Night Live skit. BB on the hotel roof one hand, and on the other, an embedded reporter doing his piece in the parade grounds a few blocks away with American forces. | | Really, I just find it a bit hard to think she really believes or agrees with the nonsense she dredges up. No even marginally sane educated human being could. I think she's just a compulsive troll. But look at us lapping it up. ;) | | - RM | From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Apr 7 11:02:55 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id KAA15868; Mon, 7 Apr 2003 10:58:21 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2003 10:58:21 -0700 Message-ID: <00d401c2fd2f$2e3969c0$1202a8c0@WorkGroup> From: "Dave N." To: References: <019201c2fce1$f75f1500$b1013b41@annamort> Subject: Re: War with the world? Good! Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2003 13:55:51 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 X-HotPOP: ----------------------------------------------- Sent By HotPOP.com FREE Email Get your FREE POP email at www.HotPOP.com ----------------------------------------------- Resent-Message-ID: <"1DCfl.0.lt3.ymRa-"@mx1> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/1615 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Anna, You need to get out more. Best, Dave PS You also need to delete the 'reply to' address in your email client so responses go to the list instead of you. When the oppressed joyfully embrace their liberators, remember those who acted to keep them enslaved. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Anna M*" To: "MetaExistence" Sent: Monday, April 07, 2003 4:44 AM Subject: War with the world? Good! | War with the world? Good! | From today's New York Times: "Shortly after Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld issued a stark warning to Iran and Syria last week, declaring that any 'hostile acts' they committed on behalf of Iraq might prompt severe consequences, one of President Bush's closest aides stepped into the Oval Office to warn him that his unpredictable defense secretary had just raised the specter of a broader confrontation. Mr. Bush smiled a moment at the latest example of Mr. Rumsfeld's brazenness, recalled the aide. Then he said one word — 'Good' — and went back to work." | Posted on April 6, 2003 @ 11:47AM. | | Osama Redux | The Bush White House is already at it again. Now it's no longer important to find Saddam Hussein, says Ari Fleischer. He told reporters today, "What's important in the president's judgment is that the regime be disarmed and that the regime be changed so the Iraqi people can be free and liberated." | P | | Here come the evangelicals | The Guardian reports, "Poised behind the troops, waiting for a signal that Iraq is safe enough for them to operate in, are the evangelical Christians - carrying food in one hand and the Bible in the other." Leading the Christian charge is son of Billy Graham, Franklin Graham, who has described Islam as wicked and violent. | Posted on April 4, 2003 @ 10:48AM. | | osted on April 4, 2003 @ 1:35PM. | | From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Apr 7 11:30:41 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id LAA31498; Mon, 7 Apr 2003 11:26:52 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2003 11:26:52 -0700 Message-ID: <012901c2fd33$2bda9560$1202a8c0@WorkGroup> From: "Dave N." To: References: <058701c2fc4d$834ae480$468f3a41@annamort> <006d01c2fc7f$539adf60$1202a8c0@WorkGroup> Subject: Saddam Speech Suspiciously Mentions Nelly Song From Last Summer Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2003 14:22:37 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 X-HotPOP: ----------------------------------------------- Sent By HotPOP.com FREE Email Get your FREE POP email at www.HotPOP.com ----------------------------------------------- Resent-Message-ID: <"OnNf52.0.4i7.iBSa-"@mx1> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/1616 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This just in: LANGLEY, VA-The CIA announced Monday that it suspects Saddam Hussein's latest televised address was pre-recorded, pointing to its suspiciously dated reference to Nelly's "Hot In Herre," a rap hit from the summer of 2002. Above: In a message believed to be pre-taped, Saddam warns the U.S. about rising heat levels in Iraq. "For the enemy invaders of Iraq, it soon will get truly hot in here," Hussein said in the speech, which was televised worldwide Monday. "No amount of clothing removal will be sufficient to withstand the fiery inferno that awaits them on the battlefield." "The 'hot in here' line has definitely raised some eyebrows," CIA director George Tenet said. "However, this may not prove anything: Even though that song is nine months old, you still hear people referencing its chorus all the time. It's even in the new Chris Rock movie." Full story: http://www.theonion.com/onion3912/saddam_speech.html Dave! When the oppressed joyfully embrace their liberators, remember those who acted to keep them enslaved. From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Apr 7 11:32:57 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id LAA32410; Mon, 7 Apr 2003 11:28:59 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2003 11:28:59 -0700 Message-ID: <012a01c2fd33$7422eac0$1202a8c0@WorkGroup> From: "Dave N." To: Subject: Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2003 14:27:37 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 X-HotPOP: ----------------------------------------------- Sent By HotPOP.com FREE Email Get your FREE POP email at www.HotPOP.com ----------------------------------------------- Resent-Message-ID: <"V3Ga93.0.Jw7.gDSa-"@mx1> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/1617 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: http://www.madblast.com/view.cfm?type=FunFlash&display=1610 From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Apr 7 11:53:41 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id LAA10700; Mon, 7 Apr 2003 11:49:28 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2003 11:49:28 -0700 Message-ID: <013901c2fd36$4db58c00$1202a8c0@WorkGroup> From: "Dave N." To: References: <012a01c2fd33$7422eac0$1202a8c0@WorkGroup> Subject: Hmm... Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2003 14:40:30 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 X-HotPOP: ----------------------------------------------- Sent By HotPOP.com FREE Email Get your FREE POP email at www.HotPOP.com ----------------------------------------------- Resent-Message-ID: <"gWbcz3.0.0d2.uWSa-"@mx1> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/1618 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: This explains a lot... http://www.nationallampoon.com/news/truefacts/tf_photos.asp# Dave! When the oppressed joyfully embrace their liberators, remember those who acted to keep them enslaved. From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Apr 7 20:03:16 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id TAA02753; Mon, 7 Apr 2003 19:58:25 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2003 19:58:25 -0700 Message-ID: <00d601c2fd7a$a9d262d0$608a9a40@annamort> Reply-To: "Anna M*" From: "Anna M*" To: References: <058701c2fc4d$834ae480$468f3a41@annamort> <006d01c2fc7f$539adf60$1202a8c0@WorkGroup> Subject: Re: The war that may end the age Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2003 19:57:30 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id TAA02713 Resent-Message-ID: <"lNmVm.0.yg.HhZa-"@mx1> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/1619 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Editor's Note: The #1 justification for this war, as far as the Bush administration goes, has always been the elimination of mass destruction weapons. It is becoming more and more evident that the threat of these weapons was wildly overblown. Watch as the mission emphasis is slowly devolved from finding these weapons to 'liberating' the Iraqis. Said weapons will join Osama bin Laden on the closet shelf that holds all of the things we once cared a lot about finding. - wrp U.S. Finds No Weapons of Mass Destruction in Iraq Reuters Sunday 6 April 2003 AS SAYLIYA CAMP, Qatar - The U.S. military said on Sunday it had not yet found any weapons of mass destruction and it believed there was a diminishing threat that Iraq might use them as U.S.-led troops take over more territory. "The places it's most likely to be found we haven't even gotten to them yet," Brig. Gen. Vincent Brooks told a briefing at Central Command in Qatar. Brooks said the farther the U.S.-led forces moved into Iraq, the less opportunity there was for Iraq to use any weapons of mass destruction it might have. Washington launched a war against Iraq on March 20, vowing to disarm it of weapons of mass destruction that Baghdad denies it has. "The closer we get ... there are fewer and fewer options on what can be used to deliver weapons of mass destruction." "As we continue to advance more areas are taken away. We are pleased that it hasn't been used to date but not satisfied that the threat has gone," Brooks said. (In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107, this material is distributed without profit to those who have expressed a prior interest in receiving the included information for research and educational purposes.) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rick Monteverde" To: Sent: Monday, April 07, 2003 2:18 AM Subject: Re: The war that may end the age > Dave - > > >This is one of the funniest things you've posted to date! This is a COMMUNIST website!!! > >Everybody, be sure to read the responses to the article as they're absolutely hysterical. From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Apr 8 03:41:31 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id DAA18598; Tue, 8 Apr 2003 03:39:38 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2003 03:39:38 -0700 Message-ID: <003e01c2fdba$beef66a0$9a0e2b42@compaq> From: "Eddie X" To: References: <012a01c2fd33$7422eac0$1202a8c0@WorkGroup> <013901c2fd36$4db58c00$1202a8c0@WorkGroup> Subject: Re: Hmm... Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2003 03:29:33 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Resent-Message-ID: <"i2FiB.0.XY4.gRga-"@mx1> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/1620 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: what explains alot dave? Ed X ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave N." To: Sent: Monday, April 07, 2003 11:40 AM Subject: Hmm... > This explains a lot... > > http://www.nationallampoon.com/news/truefacts/tf_photos.asp# > > Dave! > > > When the oppressed joyfully embrace their liberators, remember those who acted to keep them > enslaved. > > From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Apr 8 03:56:35 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id DAA23957; Tue, 8 Apr 2003 03:54:35 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2003 03:54:35 -0700 Message-ID: <001501c2fdbd$2a6da430$6d849e40@annamort> Reply-To: "Anna M*" From: "Anna M*" To: "MetaExistence" Subject: "Smoking Gun" WMD Site in Iraq Turns Out to Contain Pesticide Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2003 03:53:58 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id DAA23926 Resent-Message-ID: <"Jxv0l2.0.Gs5.hfga-"@mx1> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/1621 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: "Smoking Gun" WMD Site in Iraq Turns Out to Contain Pesticide Agence France Presse Monday 7 April 2003 NEAR NAJAF, Iraq - A facility near Baghdad that a US officer had claimed might finally be "smoking gun" evidence of Iraqi chemical weapons production turned out to contain pesticide, not sarin gas as originally thought. A military intelligence officer for the US 101st Airborne Division's aviation brigade, Captain Adam Mastrianni, told AFP that comprehensive tests Monday determined the presence of the pesticide compounds. Initial tests had reportedly detected traces of sarin -- a powerful toxin that quickly affects the nervous system -- after US soldiers guarding the facility near Hindiyah, 100 kilometres (60 miles) south of Baghdad, became ill. Mastrianni said: "They thought it was a nerve agent. That's what it tested. But it is pesticide." He said a "theatre-level chemical testing team" made up of biologists and chemists had disproved the preliminary field tests results and established that pesticide was in fact the substance involved. Mastrianni added that the dozen sick soldiers, who had become nauseated, dizzy and developed skin blotches, had all recovered. The belated correction was an embarrassment for the US forces in the region, who had been quick to say that they thought they had finally found the proof they have been actively looking for, that Iraq was hiding weapons of mass destruction. A spokesman for the US army's 3rd Infantry Division, Major Ross Coffman, had told journalists at Baghdad's airport that the site "could be a smoking gun". "We are talking about finding a site of possible weapons of mass destruction," he had added. But in Qatar, where the US Central Command (CentCom) is directing the US-led invasion of Iraq, officials had been much more cautious. "We don't have any extraordinary finds at this point while we're still looking," CentCom spokesman US Brigadier General Vincent Brooks told a news briefing. He expressed confidence that the US forces would eventually find the proof they were looking for. Troops, he said, would be increasingly investigating suspected sites, both ones that have been identified beforehand, and others "that can be done on an ad hoc basis where we find some piece of information we didn't previously have -- and frankly we expect there will be a lot of that." In a further sign that US commanders are unconcerned about an Iraqi nuclear, biological or chemical attack, they ordered forces near Baghdad on Monday to shed their protective gear. "It's great to have them off," Lieutenant Colonel Fred Padilla, commander of the 1st Marines Battalion, said after his troops stripped down to lighter camouflage garb. Padilla said an order to take off the cumbersome and hot protection suits had come down from his superiors. "They made an assessment and they determined there was not a serious threat right now," he said. (In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107, this material is distributed without profit to those who have expressed a prior interest in receiving the included information for research and educational purposes.) From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Apr 8 04:02:02 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id DAA26253; Tue, 8 Apr 2003 03:59:58 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2003 03:59:58 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: rick@mail.highsurf.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <00d601c2fd7a$a9d262d0$608a9a40@annamort> References: <058701c2fc4d$834ae480$468f3a41@annamort> <006d01c2fc7f$539adf60$1202a8c0@WorkGroup> <00d601c2fd7a$a9d262d0$608a9a40@annamort> Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2003 00:59:41 -1000 To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: Re: The war that may end the age Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id DAA26213 Resent-Message-ID: <"TVCPZ1.0.4Q6.jkga-"@mx1> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/1622 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: So, my next door neighbor is this WHACK who's always threatening us for no reason, making noise all night, etc. Then he gets even more depressed and angry lately, says he has built a bomb, and he's thinking of just blowing up himself and both our houses. Our bedroom is like 15 feet away. So I call the police, and they go in and he resists, and they arrest him and search the house. No bomb is found. I'm GLAD there was never a bomb. I'm also glad he'll be in prison and his house has been sold to people who turn out to be quite nice. None of that really happened to me personally, it's just a story I made up to prove how silly it is to present the material below as a criticism of the Bush administration's words and actions. They have been valid and correct all the way. The threat was not "overblown" at all. Iraq has used WMD. They certainly have some stashed somewhere. If we never find it, just as well - then I hope it never IS found and no one ever has access to it. Anna, it's clear that you don't give much thought to these issues by re-posting all the hateful rubbish you find out there. So be it. But to not even have a heart...the people of Iraq (and Kuwait) have suffered horribly, and they and even larger groups of people would continue to suffer in the future if that insane regime is not eliminated. How can anyone with a conscience speak or write, much less act, against those doing what has become necessary to effect its immediate removal after all that has happened? - RM >Editor's Note: The #1 justification for this war, as far as the Bush administration goes, has always been the elimination of mass destruction weapons. It is becoming more and more evident that the threat of these weapons was wildly overblown. Watch as the mission emphasis is slowly devolved from finding these weapons to 'liberating' the Iraqis. Said weapons will join Osama bin Laden on the closet shelf that holds all of the things we once cared a lot about finding. - wrp > >U.S. Finds No Weapons of Mass Destruction in Iraq >Reuters > >Sunday 6 April 2003 > >AS SAYLIYA CAMP, Qatar - The U.S. military said on Sunday it had not yet found any weapons of mass destruction and it believed there was a diminishing threat that Iraq might use them as U.S.-led troops take over more territory. > >"The places it's most likely to be found we haven't even gotten to them yet," Brig. Gen. Vincent Brooks told a briefing at Central Command in Qatar. > >Brooks said the farther the U.S.-led forces moved into Iraq, the less opportunity there was for Iraq to use any weapons of mass destruction it might have. Washington launched a war against Iraq on March 20, vowing to disarm it of weapons of mass destruction that Baghdad denies it has. > >"The closer we get ... there are fewer and fewer options on what can be used to deliver weapons of mass destruction." > >"As we continue to advance more areas are taken away. We are pleased that it hasn't been used to date but not satisfied that the threat has gone," Brooks said. > >(In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107, this material is distributed without profit to those who have expressed a prior interest in receiving the included information for research and educational purposes.) From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Apr 8 07:15:02 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id HAA09836; Tue, 8 Apr 2003 07:12:26 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2003 07:12:26 -0700 Message-ID: <014d01c2fdd8$d0727340$6d849e40@annamort> Reply-To: "Anna M*" From: "Anna M*" To: "MetaExistence" Subject: WHAT WE DON'T KNOW ABOUT THIS WAR Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2003 07:11:52 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id HAA09750 Resent-Message-ID: <"rOurh3.0.dP2.AZja-"@mx1> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/1623 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: WHAT WE DON'T KNOW ABOUT THIS WAR -- by JON RAPPOPORT ---an open letter to Christopher Hitchens, Bill O'Reilly, Sean Hannity, Sean Penn, Susan Sarandon, Martin Sheen, the VFW, Ted Turner, David Hackworth, Madonna, Michael Moore, Robert Byrd, Rush Limbaugh, Dan Rather, Richard Perle, Ariel Sharon, the Pope, David Rockefeller, Amnesty International, and the King of Siam--- April 7. Yesterday, in an attempt to find out more about the death of NBC reporter, David Bloom, I spoke with the former head of the Pentagon Depleted Uranium Investigation Team, Dr. Doug Rokke. Rokke was the man who went to Iraq a decade ago on a mission to report on depleted uranium (DU). What he found was so horrifying the Pentagon scuttled his work and tried to make him an invisible man. Rokke suffered uranium poisoning himself. But his medical records, and those of who knows how many thousands of other soldiers, do not reflect that. History has been suppressed, has been re-written. Our conversation began with me asking Rokke if he thought that the announced cause of David Bloom's death, pulmonary embolism, could have resulted from DU. But Rokke stopped me short. He said, "This was the diagnosis they immediately gave out? I don't see how. You can't diagnose that from the battlefield. You really need an autopsy to discover whether that's the cause .." Which opened up new questions. Rokke began to talk about conditions in the Gulf now. He said that the PR about the US limiting civilian casualties is absurd, because, for example, the Pentagon admits to losing 700 cruise missiles that have been fired at Baghdad in the current campaign. In other words, those missiles strayed off course and no one really knows where they landed and exploded. "700 missiles, each one loaded with DU, is 700,000 pounds of explosives," he said. 700,000 pounds of explosives going off, spreading cancer-causing uranium in all directions. Rokke then informed me that, since 1990, and up to the beginning of Gulf War 2, some 260,000 US soldiers have been granted disability. 10,000 have died. I'm relaying these facts to you in a sober way, but of course I was staggered as Rokke talked. He painted a picture of the Iraqi landscape as a toxic soup. DU, yes. But also many other toxins, because as he explained, when bombs and missiles rip up ANY material that is composite or synthetic, like plastics, you get all sorts of poisonous byproducts. And that, for example, is what happened at the WTC on 9/11. Rokke said, "I trained a lot of those first health responders. They're dead now." Rokke, over the years, together with colleagues, has issued report after report describing what, in essence, are the inevitable consequences of modern warfare as it is carried out. A lingering toxic landscape that kills over time. When Rokke was in the Gulf a decade ago, one of his fears was confirmed: the masks worn to protect against DU don't work. They can't filter out the smallest and deadliest particles of uranium. "We could taste the stuff [uranium]," he said. Rokke states that the Pentagon is completely aware of the dangers to US solders and combatants, and just doesn't care. I asked him why DU is used in projectile shells and missiles. He told me it was because uranium is so dense the weight of impact on a target causes a lot more damage. And, he said, these shells are not merely coated or tipped with uranium, as some Pentagon people have stated. They are packed with it. Rokke likened the situation to having uranium rods in your backyard. He went on to explain that the PB pills US soldiers have been taking, as protection against nerve gas, are themselves nerve agents. If taken immediately before a nerve-gas attack---and then followed up with two other medicines---the soldier might get protection from nerve gas. But the PB pills are being swallowed long in advance of any possible contact with nerve gas. In essence, soldiers are getting "nerve gas" attacks FROM THE POISON PILLS. Rokke mentioned a number of sites around the world---Afghanistan and the former Yugoslavia, and places in the US---where DU is a major problem right now. By this point in our conversation, Rokke was piecing together an emerging picture of modern war as both murder and suicide. He predicted the consequences of the Iraq war are going to be worse than Gulf War 1. Worse, in terms of damage and death to US troops and the Iraqi people. I hung up the phone stunned. I can only ask that you get this information out to as many people as possible. To give the widest possible benefit of the doubt to mainstream news reporters, THEY JUST DON'T KNOW. They have no idea what they are supporting when they allow the picture of this war to be painted as a careful and controlled campaign. All those maps and arrows and targets---they need to be enveloped in a cloud of MULTIPLE POISONS. Then we would have some concept of what is really going on---and what is going to happen when it's over. Rokke mentioned that, between Gulf War 1 and the start of Gulf 2, the Iraqis tried to build new water treatment facilities in Basra. To clean up their horrible, illness-causing contaminated water. Each time they tried, he said, those emerging facilities were destroyed... What is happening in the Gulf is not merely the result of ignorance. It is not only depraved indifference. It is a plan to depopulate and destroy. US soldiers will be sacrificed, in huge numbers, to forward the larger goal. The depopulation and debilitation of Iraq. Yet, the news networks still display that graphic: OPERATION IRAQI FREEDOM. And DOD spokesmen keep saying the protection of the Iraqi oil fields is being done to preserve "the future wealth of the Iraqi people." That sick joke takes on a new and very ominous meaning. If 260,000 US vets now on disability from Gulf 1 can be hidden from the stupefied American people, what else can be hidden, here and in Iraq, in the coming months and years? How many cases of cancer? How many birth defects? How many kidney and liver failures? How many immune-system destructions? How many American families who support their children now doing time in the Gulf will later watch those sons and daughters waste away, while the Pentagon claims it's all post-traumatic stress? How far do all the toxic clouds drift? How many cases of illness are being misdiagnosed as the result of germs? We are in a time of madness. I can't fault prayer or the distractions of television or even the desperate accoutrements of so-called patriotism. But somehow we have to live beyond cliches and summon up the outrage equal to the destruction. Equal to the moment. The wretched hairless generals are striding through the Pentagon thinking they are on a course of victory, thinking whatever they have to think to avoid the truth that is chasing them like a snake. Let the cardboard floors of lies give way and collapse. Let the voices of the intelligent pro-war advocates incorporate this news. Let them, finally, arrive at a further shore of conscience that compels them to take a stand. They are viewing old images, they are seeing a fantasy of war, they are imagining situations that no longer exist. War is now different. It is a sword you always fall on. WAKE UP. WAKE UP. JON RAPPOPORT www.nomorefakenews.com http://www.nomorefakenews.com From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Apr 8 08:45:10 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id IAA22670; Tue, 8 Apr 2003 08:40:24 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2003 08:40:24 -0700 Message-ID: <006c01c2fde5$1a7664e0$1202a8c0@WorkGroup> From: "Dave N." To: References: <012a01c2fd33$7422eac0$1202a8c0@WorkGroup> <013901c2fd36$4db58c00$1202a8c0@WorkGroup> <003e01c2fdba$beef66a0$9a0e2b42@compaq> Subject: Re: Hmm... Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2003 11:39:23 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 X-HotPOP: ----------------------------------------------- Sent By HotPOP.com FREE Email Get your FREE POP email at www.HotPOP.com ----------------------------------------------- Resent-Message-ID: <"91y6g1.0.5Y5.erka-"@mx1> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/1624 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Eddie, Did you seriously not get the humor there, or are you just being sardonic? Best, Dave When the oppressed joyfully embrace their liberators, remember those who acted to keep them enslaved. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Eddie X" To: Sent: Tuesday, April 08, 2003 6:29 AM Subject: Re: Hmm... | what explains alot dave? | | Ed X | | ----- Original Message ----- | From: "Dave N." | To: | Sent: Monday, April 07, 2003 11:40 AM | Subject: Hmm... | | | > This explains a lot... | > | > http://www.nationallampoon.com/news/truefacts/tf_photos.asp# | > | > Dave! | > | > | > When the oppressed joyfully embrace their liberators, remember those who | acted to keep them | > enslaved. | > | > | | From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Apr 8 09:02:57 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id JAA31951; Tue, 8 Apr 2003 09:00:06 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2003 09:00:06 -0700 Message-ID: <00b701c2fde7$db72c600$1202a8c0@WorkGroup> From: "Dave N." To: References: <058701c2fc4d$834ae480$468f3a41@annamort> <006d01c2fc7f$539adf60$1202a8c0@WorkGroup> <00d601c2fd7a$a9d262d0$608a9a40@annamort> Subject: Re: The war that may end the age Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2003 11:50:35 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 X-HotPOP: ----------------------------------------------- Sent By HotPOP.com FREE Email Get your FREE POP email at www.HotPOP.com ----------------------------------------------- Resent-Message-ID: <"nHJc_2.0.9p7.58la-"@mx1> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/1625 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Rick, You forgot to mention that your neighbor also tried to kill your Dad. ; ) Best, Dave When the oppressed joyfully embrace their liberators, remember those who acted to keep them enslaved. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rick Monteverde" To: Sent: Tuesday, April 08, 2003 6:59 AM Subject: Re: The war that may end the age | So, my next door neighbor is this WHACK who's always threatening us for no reason, making noise all night, etc. Then he gets even more depressed and angry lately, says he has built a bomb, and he's thinking of just blowing up himself and both our houses. Our bedroom is like 15 feet away. So I call the police, and they go in and he resists, and they arrest him and search the house. No bomb is found. I'm GLAD there was never a bomb. I'm also glad he'll be in prison and his house has been sold to people who turn out to be quite nice. | | None of that really happened to me personally, it's just a story I made up to prove how silly it is to present the material below as a criticism of the Bush administration's words and actions. They have been valid and correct all the way. The threat was not "overblown" at all. Iraq has used WMD. They certainly have some stashed somewhere. If we never find it, just as well - then I hope it never IS found and no one ever has access to it. | | Anna, it's clear that you don't give much thought to these issues by re-posting all the hateful rubbish you find out there. So be it. But to not even have a heart...the people of Iraq (and Kuwait) have suffered horribly, and they and even larger groups of people would continue to suffer in the future if that insane regime is not eliminated. How can anyone with a conscience speak or write, much less act, against those doing what has become necessary to effect its immediate removal after all that has happened? | | - RM | | >Editor's Note: The #1 justification for this war, as far as the Bush administration goes, has always been the elimination of mass destruction weapons. It is becoming more and more evident that the threat of these weapons was wildly overblown. Watch as the mission emphasis is slowly devolved from finding these weapons to 'liberating' the Iraqis. Said weapons will join Osama bin Laden on the closet shelf that holds all of the things we once cared a lot about finding. - wrp | > | >U.S. Finds No Weapons of Mass Destruction in Iraq | >Reuters | > | >Sunday 6 April 2003 | > | >AS SAYLIYA CAMP, Qatar - The U.S. military said on Sunday it had not yet found any weapons of mass destruction and it believed there was a diminishing threat that Iraq might use them as U.S.-led troops take over more territory. | > | >"The places it's most likely to be found we haven't even gotten to them yet," Brig. Gen. Vincent Brooks told a briefing at Central Command in Qatar. | > | >Brooks said the farther the U.S.-led forces moved into Iraq, the less opportunity there was for Iraq to use any weapons of mass destruction it might have. Washington launched a war against Iraq on March 20, vowing to disarm it of weapons of mass destruction that Baghdad denies it has. | > | >"The closer we get ... there are fewer and fewer options on what can be used to deliver weapons of mass destruction." | > | >"As we continue to advance more areas are taken away. We are pleased that it hasn't been used to date but not satisfied that the threat has gone," Brooks said. | > | >(In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107, this material is distributed without profit to those who have expressed a prior interest in receiving the included information for research and educational purposes.) | From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Apr 8 14:34:51 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id OAA19023; Tue, 8 Apr 2003 14:31:58 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2003 14:31:58 -0700 Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.2.20030408170820.026a1dc8@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 Date: Tue, 08 Apr 2003 17:32:07 -0400 To: vortexB-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Commendation for missing the target Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"EsF9K2.0.Af4.E_pa-"@mx1> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/1626 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Last night the news showed one of these high tech video-game style views of the war in Iraq. It showed a laser targeting an abandoned truck full of ammunition on a road. Another vehicle approached just as the bomb fell, and the person targeting the laser deliberately moved the laser ~20 meters away, pointing into a river. The bomb fell into the water and probably did not hurt the people in the second vehicle. Since this was featured on the news I expect the pilot got a commendation. This is something new to history. I doubt that in any previous conflict an army bragged that it deliberately missed a target in order to spare civilian lives. That is a waste of expensive ordnance, and more to the point, it was a waste of critical time and precious resources, and it meant the pilot and the aircraft took a risk and then threw away the benefit. I do not think much of the U.S. political leaders. I do not think the war was justified -- despite the obvious benefits it may bring to most Iraqi people if political reform succeeds. But you have to hand it to the U.S. military. It is astounding how careful they have been, at great risk to their own lives. Another example of this is the fact that they are dropping concrete bombs on some urban targets. I mean bombs filled with concrete, not explosives. They have deliberately set the clock back 1,500 years to the technology of catapults and Trebuchets! Again, that means soldiers are risking their lives and aircraft that cost millions of dollars, and instead of dropping ordnance that will explode and almost certainly kill the enemy or destroy the target, they are dropping concrete, even though concrete is less likely to destroy the target effectively. The only reason they do this is to prevent collateral damage to civilians and civilian property. Re: concrete bombs: http://www.defenselink.mil/news/Mar2003/t03052003_t305targ.html - Jed From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Apr 8 15:22:22 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id PAA14014; Tue, 8 Apr 2003 15:19:31 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2003 15:19:31 -0700 Message-ID: <000701c2fe1c$da8fed00$1202a8c0@WorkGroup> From: "Dave N." To: References: <5.2.0.9.2.20030408170820.026a1dc8@pop.mindspring.com> Subject: Re: Commendation for missing the target Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2003 18:18:28 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 X-HotPOP: ----------------------------------------------- Sent By HotPOP.com FREE Email Get your FREE POP email at www.HotPOP.com ----------------------------------------------- Resent-Message-ID: <"I9jXB2.0.tQ3.ohqa-"@mx1> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/1627 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed, Thanks for brining this up - I had heard about this and found it pretty darn amazing. Regrettably, I'm pretty sure we don't yet have concrete 'bombs' but I think eventually we will, and I for one think this is a very good thing. I'm quite curious as to why you feel disarming Saddam's regime was unjustified, though, as even the UN agreed on that point. Best, Dave When the oppressed joyfully embrace their liberators, remember those who acted to keep them enslaved. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jed Rothwell" To: Sent: Tuesday, April 08, 2003 5:32 PM Subject: Commendation for missing the target | Last night the news showed one of these high tech video-game style views of | the war in Iraq. It showed a laser targeting an abandoned truck full of | ammunition on a road. Another vehicle approached just as the bomb fell, and | the person targeting the laser deliberately moved the laser ~20 meters | away, pointing into a river. The bomb fell into the water and probably did | not hurt the people in the second vehicle. Since this was featured on the | news I expect the pilot got a commendation. | | This is something new to history. I doubt that in any previous conflict an | army bragged that it deliberately missed a target in order to spare | civilian lives. That is a waste of expensive ordnance, and more to the | point, it was a waste of critical time and precious resources, and it meant | the pilot and the aircraft took a risk and then threw away the benefit. | | I do not think much of the U.S. political leaders. I do not think the war | was justified -- despite the obvious benefits it may bring to most Iraqi | people if political reform succeeds. But you have to hand it to the U.S. | military. It is astounding how careful they have been, at great risk to | their own lives. | | Another example of this is the fact that they are dropping concrete bombs | on some urban targets. I mean bombs filled with concrete, not explosives. | They have deliberately set the clock back 1,500 years to the technology of | catapults and Trebuchets! Again, that means soldiers are risking their | lives and aircraft that cost millions of dollars, and instead of dropping | ordnance that will explode and almost certainly kill the enemy or destroy | the target, they are dropping concrete, even though concrete is less likely | to destroy the target effectively. The only reason they do this is to | prevent collateral damage to civilians and civilian property. | | Re: concrete bombs: | | http://www.defenselink.mil/news/Mar2003/t03052003_t305targ.html | | - Jed | | From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Apr 8 15:49:38 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id PAA26052; Tue, 8 Apr 2003 15:46:18 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2003 15:46:18 -0700 Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.2.20030408182523.02722aa0@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 Date: Tue, 08 Apr 2003 18:46:06 -0400 To: vortexB-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Commendation for missing the target In-Reply-To: <000701c2fe1c$da8fed00$1202a8c0@WorkGroup> References: <5.2.0.9.2.20030408170820.026a1dc8@pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"dVwuS2.0.vM6.w4ra-"@mx1> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/1628 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Dave N. wrote: >Thanks for brining this up - I had heard about this and found it pretty >darn amazing. >Regrettably, I'm pretty sure we don't yet have concrete 'bombs' but I >think eventually we will . . . The Pentagon briefing I cited and an article in Slate gave me the impression they are using concrete bombs already, in the field. It isn't hard to make them! See: http://slate.msn.com/id/2081236/ >I'm quite curious as to why you feel disarming Saddam's regime was >unjustified, though, as even >the UN agreed on that point. I feel this way for the reasons I listed in an earlier message on Vortex, titled, "OFF TOPIC Would you risk your life for this cause?" I personally would not be willing to risk my life to free the Iraqi people, so I could not, in good conscience, ask another American to do it. I think the likelihood of success is small. Of course I do not mean that the military outcome is open to question! I mean that the politics, history, tribal rivalry and most of all the oil will soon drag Iraq back into the nightmare, with some new strongman in charge. Vested interests in the Middle East and the U.S. strongly favor tyranny, poverty and exploitation, mainly to keep oil prices low. This cynical term "regime change" means exactly what it says: Bush and the rest of the oil industry want a new dictator who will stay under their thumb this time. I fear that Iraq will soon revert back into chaos and fundamentalist hatred of the U.S., just as Afghanistan is doing, and just as the Confederacy did after the Civil War, until 1965. We have no technological miracle weapons that can prevent that. I fear that our soldiers will have died in vain, just as they did in 1918. - Jed From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Apr 8 16:44:40 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id QAA20095; Tue, 8 Apr 2003 16:40:21 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2003 16:40:21 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: rick@mail.highsurf.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.2.20030408170820.026a1dc8@pop.mindspring.com> References: <5.2.0.9.2.20030408170820.026a1dc8@pop.mindspring.com> Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2003 13:40:05 -1000 To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: Re: Commendation for missing the target Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id QAA20058 Resent-Message-ID: <"ImySM2.0.wv4.btra-"@mx1> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/1629 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed - The explosive content of the bombs has now in some cases been rendered unnecessary by their accuracy. This is a development Nikola Tesla predicted even with respect to nuclear weapons in around 1919, saying that even if it was possible to develop them (a big debate at the time), they would be made obselete by the accuracy and quantity of warhead delivery systems. A few years ago he was proved correct - can't remember a reference to it, but I read the newspaper article where it was being claimed by some defense folks that with the new pinpoint accuracy of even ballistic delivery systems, conventional explosives could do the damage needed even on very hard targets like missle silos, etc. - RM >Another example of this is the fact that they are dropping concrete bombs on some urban targets. I mean bombs filled with concrete, not explosives. They have deliberately set the clock back 1,500 years to the technology of catapults and Trebuchets! Again, that means soldiers are risking their lives and aircraft that cost millions of dollars, and instead of dropping ordnance that will explode and almost certainly kill the enemy or destroy the target, they are dropping concrete, even though concrete is less likely to destroy the target effectively. The only reason they do this is to prevent collateral damage to civilians and civilian property. > >Re: concrete bombs: > >http://www.defenselink.mil/news/Mar2003/t03052003_t305targ.html From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Apr 8 18:39:28 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id SAA03256; Tue, 8 Apr 2003 18:31:13 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2003 18:31:13 -0700 Message-ID: <3E93788D.7070802@bellsouth.net> Date: Tue, 08 Apr 2003 21:34:05 -0400 From: Terry Blanton User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.0.1) Gecko/20020823 Netscape/7.0 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Commendation for missing the target References: <5.2.0.9.2.20030408170820.026a1dc8@pop.mindspring.com> <5.2.0.9.2.20030408182523.02722aa0@pop.mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"tYbzV2.0.oo.XVta-"@mx1> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/1630 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed Rothwell wrote: > Dave N. wrote: > >> Thanks for brining this up - I had heard about this and found it >> pretty darn amazing. >> Regrettably, I'm pretty sure we don't yet have concrete 'bombs' but I >> think eventually we will . . . > > > The Pentagon briefing I cited and an article in Slate gave me the > impression they are using concrete bombs already, in the field. Yes, and quite effectively! http://www.motherjones.com/news_wire/concrete.html From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Apr 8 18:41:11 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id SAA05990; Tue, 8 Apr 2003 18:37:11 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2003 18:37:11 -0700 Message-ID: <3E9379F5.3080706@bellsouth.net> Date: Tue, 08 Apr 2003 21:40:05 -0400 From: Terry Blanton User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.0.1) Gecko/20020823 Netscape/7.0 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Commendation for missing the target References: <5.2.0.9.2.20030408170820.026a1dc8@pop.mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"0ld-j3.0.UT1.7bta-"@mx1> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/1631 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Rick Monteverde wrote: >A few years ago he was proved correct - can't remember a reference to it, but I read the newspaper article where it was being claimed by some defense folks that with the new pinpoint accuracy of even ballistic delivery systems, conventional explosives could do the damage needed even on very hard targets like missle silos, etc. > Space Command concurs that these inertia weapons, directed from LEO, would be as effective as more polluting strategic weapons. Read Niven and Pournelle's "Footfall". Kewl aliens! From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Apr 8 18:58:33 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id SAA13300; Tue, 8 Apr 2003 18:56:11 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2003 18:56:11 -0700 Message-ID: <000801c2fe3a$d482dee0$af0e2b42@compaq> From: "Eddie X" To: References: <012a01c2fd33$7422eac0$1202a8c0@WorkGroup> <013901c2fd36$4db58c00$1202a8c0@WorkGroup> <003e01c2fdba$beef66a0$9a0e2b42@compaq> <006c01c2fde5$1a7664e0$1202a8c0@WorkGroup> Subject: Re: Hmm... Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2003 18:28:31 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Resent-Message-ID: <"9VRrw.0.gF3.xsta-"@mx1> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/1632 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: seriousely i did not. define sardonic. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave N." To: Sent: Tuesday, April 08, 2003 8:39 AM Subject: Re: Hmm... > Eddie, > > Did you seriously not get the humor there, or are you just being sardonic? > > Best, > > Dave > > > When the oppressed joyfully embrace their liberators, remember those who acted to keep them > enslaved. > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Eddie X" > To: > Sent: Tuesday, April 08, 2003 6:29 AM > Subject: Re: Hmm... > > > | what explains alot dave? > | > | Ed X > | > | ----- Original Message ----- > | From: "Dave N." > | To: > | Sent: Monday, April 07, 2003 11:40 AM > | Subject: Hmm... > | > | > | > This explains a lot... > | > > | > http://www.nationallampoon.com/news/truefacts/tf_photos.asp# > | > > | > Dave! > | > > | > > | > When the oppressed joyfully embrace their liberators, remember those who > | acted to keep them > | > enslaved. > | > > | > > | > | > > From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Apr 8 19:45:26 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id TAA31861; Tue, 8 Apr 2003 19:42:07 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2003 19:42:07 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: rick@mail.highsurf.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <000801c2fe3a$d482dee0$af0e2b42@compaq> References: <012a01c2fd33$7422eac0$1202a8c0@WorkGroup> <013901c2fd36$4db58c00$1202a8c0@WorkGroup> <003e01c2fdba$beef66a0$9a0e2b42@compaq> <006c01c2fde5$1a7664e0$1202a8c0@WorkGroup> <000801c2fe3a$d482dee0$af0e2b42@compaq> Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2003 16:41:55 -1000 To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: Re: Hmm... Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"SyhZI2.0.mn7._Xua-"@mx1> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/1633 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Eddie - >define sardonic. Define dictionary. The word sardonic comes from the name of a legendary plant. Eat it and you laugh like crazy for a while, then you suddenly die. Feeling ok? - RM From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Apr 8 21:14:09 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id VAA04638; Tue, 8 Apr 2003 21:09:47 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2003 21:09:47 -0700 Message-ID: <3E939D22.7050006@ghiocel.com> Date: Tue, 08 Apr 2003 21:10:10 -0700 From: Dan Ghiocel Reply-To: dan@ghiocel.com User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; rv:1.0.2) Gecko/20030208 Netscape/7.02 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Commendation for missing the target References: <5.2.0.9.2.20030408170820.026a1dc8@pop.mindspring.com> <5.2.0.9.2.20030408182523.02722aa0@pop.mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"PlhHo.0.K81.Bqva-"@mx1> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/1634 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed, While I guess it sounds very impressive and probably "cool" the concrete bomb idea, scientifically speaking,what would be the reasons for such a use? Just a cheap show off to tell the world how great we are we can afford to "throw rocks to the enemy?" What would the military and strategic advantages would be? I know is funny to watch the war like a video game, but one should not loose sight that there are people dying, countries destroyed in the process. While I understand that the trend is for bigger more powerful bombs, at the mountains destroying level (20000 lbs bombs in Afganistan? against the Hindukush Mountains!) I am not sure I see the use of the concrete bombs as likely. Actually, it is interesting that this war was fabricated agains the international fabric of traditions and rules, supposedly to find some weapons of mass destruction, but of course there is none to find. It is too bad for poor iraqis that they have too much oil! Sure, probably it will be ironical after all this propaganda barrage, but I would not be surprised if the only one to use weapons of mass destruction will be the US (like in Japan to cut the war short!) . I guess, Sadam and the iraqis should have given up their country faster, not to try the patience of some world interests! Dan G. From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Apr 8 21:52:35 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id VAA19929; Tue, 8 Apr 2003 21:51:15 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2003 21:51:15 -0700 Message-ID: <000f01c2fe53$5158a5e0$af0e2b42@compaq> From: "Eddie X" To: References: <012a01c2fd33$7422eac0$1202a8c0@WorkGroup> <013901c2fd36$4db58c00$1202a8c0@WorkGroup> <003e01c2fdba$beef66a0$9a0e2b42@compaq> <006c01c2fde5$1a7664e0$1202a8c0@WorkGroup> <000801c2fe3a$d482dee0$af0e2b42@compaq> Subject: Re: Hmm... Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2003 21:48:45 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Resent-Message-ID: <"9qZx_2.0.Jt4.3Rwa-"@mx1> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/1635 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Feeling just fine. Why do you ask? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rick Monteverde" To: Sent: Tuesday, April 08, 2003 7:41 PM Subject: Re: Hmm... > Eddie - > > >define sardonic. > > Define dictionary. > > The word sardonic comes from the name of a legendary plant. Eat it and you laugh like crazy for a while, then you suddenly die. Feeling ok? > > - RM > From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Apr 8 23:32:49 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id XAA18752; Tue, 8 Apr 2003 23:29:52 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2003 23:29:52 -0700 Message-ID: <003001c2fe61$61e251a0$1202a8c0@WorkGroup> From: "Dave N." To: References: <5.2.0.9.2.20030408170820.026a1dc8@pop.mindspring.com> <5.2.0.9.2.20030408182523.02722aa0@pop.mindspring.com> Subject: Re: Commendation for missing the target Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2003 02:27:46 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 X-HotPOP: ----------------------------------------------- Sent By HotPOP.com FREE Email Get your FREE POP email at www.HotPOP.com ----------------------------------------------- Resent-Message-ID: <"zWxmj3.0.va4.Vtxa-"@mx1> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/1636 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Jed, | >Regrettably, I'm pretty sure we don't yet have concrete 'bombs' but I | >think eventually we will . . . | | The Pentagon briefing I cited and an article in Slate gave me the | impression they are using concrete bombs already, in the field. It isn't | hard to make them! See: | | http://slate.msn.com/id/2081236/ I read that, and the DOD link you referenced earlier, neither specified that they were currently using concrete bombs. I'm almost positive we don't have them yet (although it wouldn't take much to take an iron bomb and fill it with concrete). I know I haven't heard mention of one being used, and I've been following this war extremely closely (maybe *too* closely!). If they were, I would think they would be shouting it from the rooftops because that would be a *major* public relations coup on the military's part. | >I'm quite curious as to why you feel disarming Saddam's regime was | >unjustified, though, as even | >the UN agreed on that point. | | I feel this way for the reasons I listed in an earlier message on Vortex, | titled, "OFF TOPIC Would you risk your life for this cause?" I personally | would not be willing to risk my life to free the Iraqi people, so I could | not, in good conscience, ask another American to do it. I think the | likelihood of success is small. I would agree with you - except for the fact that we have an all volunteer armed forces. For myself, I can't in good conscious say that I would risk my life to free Iraq because I'm past the age they normally accept for combat positions. I think it's BS to say you would put your life on the line when realistically there's little chance it could happen (even though I would score well on the physicals and other aptitudes). If called though, I would do what I could. | Of course I do not mean that the military outcome is open to question! I | mean that the politics, history, tribal rivalry and most of all the oil | will soon drag Iraq back into the nightmare, with some new strongman in | charge. Vested interests in the Middle East and the U.S. strongly favor | tyranny, poverty and exploitation, mainly to keep oil prices low. This | cynical term "regime change" means exactly what it says: Bush and the rest | of the oil industry want a new dictator who will stay under their thumb | this time. One big exception to that region is Turkey. Also, if all we wanted was oil, why wouldn't we have taken it during the first gulf war? Or for that matter, invaded Venezuela or Mexico, who present much less of a military risk than Iraq did? Oil is part of it, yes, and oil was part of W.W.II and every conflict afterwards, since it's a major strategic resource. But it sure wasn't the only reason, and it's not like we aren't going to pay the Iraqis for their oil! | I fear that Iraq will soon revert back into chaos and fundamentalist hatred | of the U.S., just as Afghanistan is doing, and just as the Confederacy did | after the Civil War, until 1965. We have no technological miracle weapons | that can prevent that. I fear that our soldiers will have died in vain, | just as they did in 1918. Where do you get the idea that Afghanistan is reverting to chaos and hatred of the US? Are you reading the New York Times again? ; ) And the Confederacy?! Maybe they were sore about losing the war for a couple decades, but the whole country *including the south* got along well enough to fight together in four major foreign wars between the Civil War and 1965, five if you count Vietnam. Granted, they had it in for blacks, Jews and other 'mud people' (as those masters of tolerance the KKK called them) until the civil rights movement turned it around, but it's not like they kept sending commando squads to attack cities North of the Mason-Dixon after the Civil War ended. We do have a 'miracle weapon' to prevent a post war disaster, BTW, it's called freedom plus democracy. Look at South Korea and the former Soviet bloc countries. Last I checked most of them liked us just fine, and some fought with us in this war, notably Poland. Looks like it worked pretty good there! All of this, of course, is dependent on our leaders having planned the peace as well or better than they did the war. Pray they did! Best, Dave PS Wow, I actually had a rational, constructive discussion with someone about politics on this list... I should buy that lottery ticket. ; ) From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Apr 9 08:41:33 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id IAA04599; Wed, 9 Apr 2003 08:35:47 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2003 08:35:47 -0700 Message-ID: <002201c2fead$a18c02a0$1202a8c0@WorkGroup> From: "Dave N." To: References: <5.2.0.9.2.20030408170820.026a1dc8@pop.mindspring.com> <5.2.0.9.2.20030408182523.02722aa0@pop.mindspring.com> <3E939D22.7050006@ghiocel.com> Subject: Re: Commendation for missing the target Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2003 11:33:32 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 X-HotPOP: ----------------------------------------------- Sent By HotPOP.com FREE Email Get your FREE POP email at www.HotPOP.com ----------------------------------------------- Resent-Message-ID: <"6T8qB.0.o71.Jt3b-"@mx1> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/1637 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed (& Dan), Jed, it looks like both Dan and I were wrong and you were right! http://www.platosrepublic.com/concrete.html They've been using concrete 'bombs' since at least 1999! I'm floored that the military wouldn't be shouting this fact from the rooftops. These guys need to hire some better PR reps. Jed, the advantage of using a concrete bomb is you kill less civilians and destroy less infrastructure. The military and strategic advantage to this is that it makes them good guys instead of bad guys. People like to kill bad guys and help good guys. Got it now? Best, Dave When the oppressed joyfully embrace their liberators, remember those who acted to keep them enslaved. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dan Ghiocel" To: Sent: Wednesday, April 09, 2003 12:10 AM Subject: Re: Commendation for missing the target | Jed, | While I guess it sounds very impressive and probably "cool" the concrete | bomb idea, scientifically speaking,what would be the reasons for such a | use? Just a cheap show off to tell the world how great we are we can | afford to "throw rocks to the enemy?" What would the military and | strategic advantages would be? I know is funny to watch the war like a | video game, but one should not loose sight that there are people dying, | countries destroyed in the process. While I understand that the trend | is for bigger more powerful bombs, at the mountains destroying level | (20000 lbs bombs in Afganistan? against the Hindukush Mountains!) I am | not sure I see the use of the concrete bombs as likely. | Actually, it is interesting that this war was fabricated agains the | international fabric of traditions and rules, supposedly to find some | weapons of mass destruction, but of course there is none to find. It is | too bad for poor iraqis that they have too much oil! Sure, probably it | will be ironical after all this propaganda barrage, but I would not be | surprised if the only one to use weapons of mass destruction will be the | US (like in Japan to cut the war short!) . | I guess, Sadam and the iraqis should have given up their country faster, | not to try the patience of some world interests! | Dan G. | | | From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Apr 9 08:47:09 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id IAA09268; Wed, 9 Apr 2003 08:42:43 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2003 08:42:43 -0700 Message-ID: <003601c2feae$9ab7da20$1202a8c0@WorkGroup> From: "Dave N." To: References: <012a01c2fd33$7422eac0$1202a8c0@WorkGroup> <013901c2fd36$4db58c00$1202a8c0@WorkGroup> <003e01c2fdba$beef66a0$9a0e2b42@compaq> <006c01c2fde5$1a7664e0$1202a8c0@WorkGroup> <000801c2fe3a$d482dee0$af0e2b42@compaq> Subject: Re: Hmm... Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2003 11:40:43 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 X-HotPOP: ----------------------------------------------- Sent By HotPOP.com FREE Email Get your FREE POP email at www.HotPOP.com ----------------------------------------------- Resent-Message-ID: <"yxJos2.0.hG2.pz3b-"@mx1> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/1638 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Eddie, Sorry, I put the wrong link in. My bad. Here it is: http://www.nationallampoon.com/news/truefacts/archives/photo/03_26_2003.asp Also, check this out, this dictionary rocks: http://www.onelook.com/ Bet you never heard anyone say that about a dictionary before! Best, Dave When the oppressed joyfully embrace their liberators, remember those who acted to keep them enslaved. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Eddie X" To: Sent: Tuesday, April 08, 2003 9:28 PM Subject: Re: Hmm... | seriousely i did not. define sardonic. | | | ----- Original Message ----- | From: "Dave N." | To: | Sent: Tuesday, April 08, 2003 8:39 AM | Subject: Re: Hmm... | | | > Eddie, | > | > Did you seriously not get the humor there, or are you just being sardonic? | > | > Best, | > | > Dave | > | > | > When the oppressed joyfully embrace their liberators, remember those who | acted to keep them | > enslaved. | > | > | > ----- Original Message ----- | > From: "Eddie X" | > To: | > Sent: Tuesday, April 08, 2003 6:29 AM | > Subject: Re: Hmm... | > | > | > | what explains alot dave? | > | | > | Ed X | > | | > | ----- Original Message ----- | > | From: "Dave N." | > | To: | > | Sent: Monday, April 07, 2003 11:40 AM | > | Subject: Hmm... | > | | > | | > | > This explains a lot... | > | > | > | > http://www.nationallampoon.com/news/truefacts/tf_photos.asp# | > | > | > | > Dave! | > | > | > | > | > | > When the oppressed joyfully embrace their liberators, remember those | who | > | acted to keep them | > | > enslaved. | > | > | > | > | > | | > | | > | > | | From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Apr 9 14:28:20 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id OAA26701; Wed, 9 Apr 2003 14:24:23 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2003 14:24:23 -0700 Message-ID: <007001c2fedc$feace880$1202a8c0@WorkGroup> From: "Dave N." To: References: <012a01c2fd33$7422eac0$1202a8c0@WorkGroup> <013901c2fd36$4db58c00$1202a8c0@WorkGroup> <003e01c2fdba$beef66a0$9a0e2b42@compaq> <006c01c2fde5$1a7664e0$1202a8c0@WorkGroup> <000801c2fe3a$d482dee0$af0e2b42@compaq> <003601c2feae$9ab7da20$1202a8c0@WorkGroup> Subject: Tell us again why you opposed the US in this war! Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2003 17:14:14 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 X-HotPOP: ----------------------------------------------- Sent By HotPOP.com FREE Email Get your FREE POP email at www.HotPOP.com ----------------------------------------------- Resent-Message-ID: <"C5Kqi2.0.8X6.7-8b-"@mx1> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/1639 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Two sources for this story, one from the right leaning news, the other from the way left. This is also a good example of how media can use a 'subtle' bias. Notice it's not what they report as much as what they *leave out* of a story. - Dave http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,83619,00.html Iraqis Tell of Torture in Secret Police Jail Tuesday, April 08, 2003 BASRA, Iraq ? Iraqis showed journalists a white stone jail where they claim Saddam Hussein's secret police for decades tortured inmates with beatings, mutilations, electric shocks and chemical baths. The jail, known as the "White Lion," was charred and half-demolished Tuesday after two days of bombing by British forces fighting for control of Basra, Iraq's second-largest city. People taken behind the jail's sandstone facade usually did not come out, residents said. Hundreds of Iraqis came to see the now-empty jail, according to British press reports. Relatives of missing inmates checked fingerprinted files and lists of names found amid the fallen bricks. "It was a place of evil," resident Hamed Fattil said. Hamed told British reporters that Iraqi police locked him and his two brothers in a jail dungeon in 1991, and that he was freed after eight months but his brothers were still missing. "They used to strap a leather cord around our head, hands and shoulders and hoist us two feet off the ground. Then they would beat us as we hung there," Hamed said. "They did unthinkable things -- electrocution, immersion in a bath of chemicals and ripping off people's finger and toenails." The jail basement was a warren of cells, chambers and cages where the ground was strewn with an insect-eaten gas mask and bottles, according to Associated Press Television News footage. For the cameras, two men re-enacted how jailers allegedly tortured prisoners. One man, hands tied behind his back with a rope attached to a hook on the ceiling, bent over while another man pantomimed hitting him on the back and the face with his hands and a long, white rod. One man shuddered while the other gave him a pretend electric shock. Outside the jail, a man showed APTN his mangled ears. Hamed took British reporters into a yard behind the jail into a set of white boxy cells, surrounded by red wire mesh with a low, wire roof. He said some of the cells, which had red doors with large bolts, were used to hold women and children. He also said hundreds of men were kept in a single cell about the size of a living room, which had one rusted grate window. Between the men's and women's cells was a long mesh cage. Hamed said here, jailers pressed prisoners against the mesh and squeezed hot irons against their backs or threw scalding water on them in front of other inmates. +++++ http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/2930739.stm Inside Saddam's torture chamber By Bill Neely Basra, southern Iraq Saddam Hussein's Iraq was a state of terror, and the security apparatus was at the heart of it. As I walked into the secret police headquarters in Basra - which is now in British hands - I met former inmates and ordinary Iraqis had been terrified to come here until now. The secret police building is now a bombed out shell What was to follow was a horrific education in terror. In the smoking basement of the bombed building was a warren of cells where prisoners had been tortured. "People died, people were imprisoned without trial," one man told me. We went further down, to cells that had no light and little air. They were covered with cockroaches and filth - and on the ground I saw a gas mask and bottles of chemicals. One man said he had spent eight years inside, just for attending Friday prayers. He prayed too much and was seen as a dangerous radical. But the secret police headquarters had more horrors to reveal. One man whose relatives had been killed here said they had their hands tied behind their backs, and were left to hang from their arms for days on end. Crying out Saddam Hussein controlled Iraq through fear, torture and execution. It happened here to tens of thousands of Iraqis deemed dangerous by the secret police. Former prisoners showed how they were interrogated A man cowered for months, crammed with 300 others into a huge cell. Hameed Fatil told me he was tortured, along with his two brothers who were executed, and re-enacted their ordeal. Security officers kept record of prisoners. Their fingerprints are all that is left of them - apart from photographs of their interrogations. To call all this a chamber of horrors is a cliche - and this place is beyond cliche. The hundreds or thousands that died here and were given no trial, no voice, cry out. On the ground I found a book called the Psychology of Interrogation, as if the men who worked here needed a handbook. On my way out I was glad of the fresh air and glad to leave - glad that I could. No one knows yet whether the new Iraq will be the kind of place where children can grow up free of the fear, the horror of torture. * This is a pooled report by Bill Neely of Independent Television News. ********** (In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107, this material is distributed without profit to those who have expressed a prior interest in receiving the included information for research and educational purposes.) To subscribe to OBRL-News, go to this web site: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/OBRL-News-Bulletin/ and follow instructions. Or send a message to stating "subscribe OBRL-News" ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Get a FREE REFINANCE QUOTE - click here! http://us.click.yahoo.com/2CXtTB/ca0FAA/i5gGAA/PMYolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: OBRL-News-Bulletin-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com OBRL-News-Bulletin is a product of the non-profit Orgone Biophysical Research Lab Greensprings Center, PO Box 1148 Ashland, Oregon 97520 USA Tel/Fax: 541-552-0118 email: info@orgonelab.org http://www.orgonelab.org Building upon the discoveries of the internationally acclaimed natural scientist, Wilhelm Reich. From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Apr 9 14:46:43 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id OAA05165; Wed, 9 Apr 2003 14:43:28 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2003 14:43:28 -0700 Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.2.20030409171250.026c3cb8@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 Date: Wed, 09 Apr 2003 17:43:47 -0400 To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Afghanistan, Japanese occupation, etc. In-Reply-To: <003001c2fe61$61e251a0$1202a8c0@WorkGroup> References: <5.2.0.9.2.20030408170820.026a1dc8@pop.mindspring.com> <5.2.0.9.2.20030408182523.02722aa0@pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"x5akJ1.0.QG1.0G9b-"@mx1> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/1640 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Dave N. wrote: >Where do you get the idea that Afghanistan is reverting to chaos and >hatred of the US? Are you >reading the New York Times again? ; ) Many sources, including the Washington Post today: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A60023-2003Apr8.html Quote: "Seen from a complacent Washington, Afghanistan still may look better than it did before the U.S. intervention. But experts following the country say they worry about a steady unraveling, much like that which preceded the Taliban's seizure of power in the mid-1990s. The symptoms are similar: Outside the capital, warlords and bandits rule the country, sometimes battling each other and regularly robbing their fellow citizens at highway checkpoints. At the borders, aid shipments and 'customs collections' on imported goods are diverted to the warlords, depriving the central government of resources and revenue. The opium trade is booming. In some places, the Taliban's extreme practices, including the persecution of women, have been reimposed." Other sources say that in most places these extreme practices remain in force. Many schools for girls have been destroyed, and women are imprisoned or killed for adultery, remarriage, or marrying against their parents permission. People who favor democracy have been frightened into silence or assassinated. A different set of warlords have taken over -- that's all. It is hard to imagine how the U.S. might have prevented this, but perhaps some degree of foreign aid might have helped. The Bush administration proposed no aid at all -- zero dollars -- but other Republicans pushed through $300 million. That's $12 per capita in Afghanistan. Most of the money is being used to supply weapons to the new army, and most members of the army are defecting back to the tribal warlords and taking the weapons with them. In short, we are setting the stage to revive the civil war. > And the Confederacy?! Maybe they were sore about losing >the war for a couple decades, but the whole country *including the south* >got along well . . . The Confederacy remained at war with itself until 1965. It was a race war, like the ones in South Africa and Northern Ireland. It only occasionally flared up into full scale armed warfare with cities and towns destroyed, but overall tens of thousands were killed. The low-level guerrilla war triggered the largest mass-migration in history. >All of this, of course, is dependent on our leaders having planned the >peace as well or better than they did the war. Pray they did! They could not have. Planning for the war began a year and half ago, and thousands of experts were assigned. Planning for the occupation began two weeks before the invasion was launched, with a staff of a dozen people, mostly people who have not been in Iraq and do not speak the language, according to administration sources. They say they will leave the job up to the Iraqi people themselves. If the Roosevelt administration had done this, Japan and Germany would still be dictatorships. Planning for the occupation of Japan began in April 1943 (Cohen, p. 15), and it was done by experts. When the war ended, the Joint Chiefs of Staff handed MacArthur detailed orders (JCS 1380/15), which MacArthur implemented brilliantly. Without a detailed plan the whole effort would have been chaotic and uncontrollable, and the Japanese militarists would taken over again the moment the U.S. left. (They made every effort to do that, and for that matter they are still trying. They are about as likely to succeed as the present day secessionist movement in Georgia, that wants to rekindle the Civil War.) - Jed From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Apr 9 17:09:22 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id RAA08924; Wed, 9 Apr 2003 17:04:34 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2003 17:04:34 -0700 Message-ID: <000501c2fef4$b5703420$1202a8c0@WorkGroup> From: "Dave N." To: References: <5.2.0.9.2.20030408170820.026a1dc8@pop.mindspring.com> <5.2.0.9.2.20030408182523.02722aa0@pop.mindspring.com> <5.2.0.9.2.20030409171250.026c3cb8@pop.mindspring.com> Subject: Re: Afghanistan, Japanese occupation, etc. Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2003 20:00:45 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 X-HotPOP: ----------------------------------------------- Sent By HotPOP.com FREE Email Get your FREE POP email at www.HotPOP.com ----------------------------------------------- Resent-Message-ID: <"4bHhv3.0.LB2.HKBb-"@mx1> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/1641 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Jed, | >Where do you get the idea that Afghanistan is reverting to chaos and | >hatred of the US? Are you | >reading the New York Times again? ; ) | | Many sources, including the Washington Post today: | | http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A60023-2003Apr8.html That was an *editorial* not hard news. As I recall there were plenty of people who held the opinion that the war in Iraq would go badly for the US, this should indicate the value of opinion is relative at best. Don't claim you have 'many' sources, submit 'many' sources. Yes, the region still has problems, but I am confident they are being worked out. Time will tell. | Other sources say that in most places these extreme practices remain in | force. Many schools for girls have been destroyed, and women are imprisoned | or killed for adultery, remarriage, or marrying against their parents | permission. People who favor democracy have been frightened into silence or | assassinated. A different set of warlords have taken over -- that's all. It | is hard to imagine how the U.S. might have prevented this, but perhaps some | degree of foreign aid might have helped. The Bush administration proposed | no aid at all -- zero dollars -- but other Republicans pushed through $300 | million. That's $12 per capita in Afghanistan. Most of the money is being | used to supply weapons to the new army, and most members of the army are | defecting back to the tribal warlords and taking the weapons with them. In | short, we are setting the stage to revive the civil war. Ok, I'm only going to address the money point because I'm strapped for time. 65 nations have pledged $6.5 billion in aid: http://www.defenselink.mil/news/Dec2002/n12192002_200212194.html The US has *already delivered* $280 million, and has more on the way http://www.csmonitor.com/2002/0827/p01s03-wosc.html Looks like Bush *supported* giving $2.3 BILLION(!) to them: http://www.feminist.org/news/newsbyte/printnews.asp?id=7289 (Google cache of the above article if the link doesn't work) http://216.239.39.100/search?q=cache:-UuQ8tovTh8C:www.feminist.org/news/newsbyte/printnews.asp%3 Fid%3D7289+US+%22billion+in+aid+for+afghanistan%22&hl=en&start=2&ie=UTF-8 and http://www.namibian.com.na/2002/November/world/02972D1539.html AND THEY ACTUALLY APPROVED A BILLION MORE THAN THAT - 3.3 BILLION!!! http://usinfo.state.gov/regional/nea/sasia/afghan/text/1115act.htm So what you've claimed above is completely, totally and mind-bogglingly false! Jed, you constantly submit erroneous information to back up your arguments and freely substitute opinions as facts. I'm sorry, but I can't take you seriously any more. Dave From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Apr 9 17:37:00 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id RAA21330; Wed, 9 Apr 2003 17:32:47 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2003 17:32:47 -0700 Message-ID: <00f601c2fef8$a9f27960$37b23b41@annamort> Reply-To: "Anna M*" From: "Anna M*" To: "MetaExistence" Subject: A letter from M. Moore Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2003 17:32:11 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id RAA21303 Resent-Message-ID: <"2h9SA2.0.9D5.lkBb-"@mx1> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/1642 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Unflappably Good News From The Inestimable Michael Moore Date: Mon, 07 Apr 2003 17:23:20 -0700 Subject: Michael Moore's Oscar "Backlash": "Stupid White Men" Back At #1, "Bowling" Breaks New Records My Oscar "Backlash": "Stupid White Men" Back At #1, "Bowling" Breaks New Records April 7, 2003 Dear friends, It appears that the Bush administration will have succeeded in colonizing Iraq sometime in the next few days. This is a blunder of such magnitude -- and we will pay for it for years to come. It was not worth the life of one single American kid in uniform, let alone the thousands of Iraqis who have died, and my condolences and prayers go out to all of them. So, where are all those weapons of mass destruction that were the pretense for this war ? Ha! There is so much to say about all this, but I will save it for later. What I am most concerned about right now is that all of you -- the majority of Americans who did not support this war in the first place -- not go silent or be intimidated by what will be touted as some great military victory. Now, more than ever, the voices of peace and truth must be heard. I have received a lot of mail from people who are feeling a profound sense of despair and believe that their voices have been drowned out by the drums and bombs of false patriotism. Some are afraid of retaliation at work or at school or in their neighborhoods because they have been vocal proponents of peace. They have been told over and over that it is not "appropriate" to protest once the country is at war, and that your only duty now is to "support the troops." Can I share with you what it's been like for me since I used my time on the Oscar stage two weeks ago to speak out against Bush and this war ? I hope that, in reading what I'm about to tell you, you'll feel a bit more emboldened to make your voice heard in whatever way or forum that is open to you. When "Bowling for Columbine" was announced as the Oscar winner for Best Documentary at the Academy Awards, the audience rose to its feet. It was a great moment, one that I will always cherish. They were standing and cheering for a film that says we Americans are a uniquely violent people, using our massive stash of guns to kill each other and to use them against many countries around the world. They were applauding a film that shows George W. Bush using fictitious fears to frighten the public into giving him whatever he wants. And they were honoring a film that states the following: The first Gulf War was an attempt to reinstall the dictator of Kuwait; Saddam Hussein was armed with weapons from the United States; and the American government is responsible for the deaths of a half-million children in Iraq over the past decade through its sanctions and bombing. That was the movie they were cheering, that was the movie they voted for, and so I decided that is what I should acknowledge in my speech. And, thus, I said the following from the Oscar stage: "On behalf of our producers Kathleen Glynn and Michael Donovan (from Canada), I would like to thank the Academy for this award. I have invited the other Documentary nominees on stage with me. They are here in solidarity because we like non-fiction. We like non-fiction because we live in fictitious times. We live in a time where fictitious election results give us a fictitious president. We are now fighting a war for fictitious reasons. Whether it's the fiction of duct tape or the fictitious 'Orange Alerts,' we are against this war, Mr. Bush. Shame on you, Mr. Bush, shame on you. And, whenever you've got the Pope and the Dixie Chicks against you, you're time is up." Halfway through my remarks, some in the audience started to cheer. That immediately set off a group of people in the balcony who started to boo. Then those supporting my remarks started to shout down the booers. The L. A. Times reported that the director of the show started screaming at the orchestra "Music! Music!" in order to cut me off, so the band dutifully struck up a tune and my time was up. (For more on why I said what I said, you can read the op-ed I wrote for the L.A. Times, plus other reaction from around the country at my website www.michaelmoore.com) The next day -- and in the two weeks since -- the right-wing pundits and radio shock jocks have been calling for my head. So, has all this ruckus hurt me? Have they succeeded in "silencing" me ? Well, take a look at my Oscar "backlash": -- On the day after I criticized Bush and the war at the Academy Awards, attendance at "Bowling for Columbine" in theaters around the country went up 110% (source: Daily Variety /BoxOfficeMojo.com). The following weekend, the box office gross was up a whopping 73% (Variety). It is now the longest-running consecutive commercial release in America, 26 weeks in a row and still thriving. The number of theaters showing the film since the Oscars has INCREASED, and it has now bested the previous box office record for a documentary by nearly 300%. -- Yesterday (April 6), "Stupid White Men" shot back to #1 on the New York Times bestseller list. This is my book's 50th week on the list, 8 of them at number one, and this marks its fourth return to the top position, something that virtually never happens. -- In the week after the Oscars, my website was getting 10-20 million hits A DAY (one day we even got more hits than the White House!). The mail has been overwhelmingly positive and supportive (and the hate mail has been hilarious!). -- In the two days following the Oscars, more people pre-ordered the video for "Bowling for Columbine" on Amazon.com than the video for the Oscar winner for Best Picture, "Chicago". -- In the past week, I have obtained funding for my next documentary, and I have been offered a slot back on television to do an updated version of "TV Nation"/ "The Awful Truth." I tell you all of this because I want to counteract a message that is told to us all the time -- that, if you take a chance to speak out politically, you will live to regret it. It will hurt you in some way, usually financially. You could lose your job. Others may not hire you. You will lose friends. And on and on and on. Take the Dixie Chicks. I'm sure you've all heard by now that, because their lead singer mentioned how she was ashamed that Bush was from her home state of Texas, their record sales have "plummeted" and country stations are boycotting their music. The truth is that their sales are NOT down. This week, after all the attacks, their album is still at #1 on the Billboard country charts and, according to Entertainment Weekly, on the pop charts during all the brouhaha, they ROSE from #6 to #4. In the New York Times, Frank Rich reports that he tried to find a ticket to ANY of the Dixie Chicks' upcoming concerts but he couldn't because they were all sold out. (To read Rich's column from yesterday's Times, "Bowling for Kennebunkport," go here: http://www.michaelmoore.com/articles/index.php?article=20030406-nytimes ) He does a pretty good job of laying it all out and talks about my next film and the impact it could potentially have.) Their song, "Travelin' Soldier" (a beautiful anti-war ballad) was the most requested song on the internet last week. They have not been hurt at all -- but that is not what the media would have you believe. Why is that ? Because there is nothing more important now than to keep the voices of dissent -- and those who would dare to ask a question -- SILENT. And what better way than to try and take a few well-known entertainers down with a pack of lies so that the average Joe or Jane gets the message loud and clear: "Wow, if they would do that to the Dixie Chicks or Michael Moore, what would they do to little ol' me?" In other words, shut the f--- up. And that, my friends, is the real point of this film that I just got an Oscar for -- how those in charge use FEAR to manipulate the public into doing whatever they are told. Well, the good news -- if there can be any good news this week -- is that not only have neither I nor others been silenced, we have been joined by millions of Americans who think the same way we do. Don't let the false patriots intimidate you by setting the agenda or the terms of the debate. Don't be defeated by polls that show 70% of the public in favor of the war. Remember that these Americans being polled are the same Americans whose kids (or neighbor's kids) have been sent over to Iraq. They are scared for the troops and they are being cowed into supporting a war they did not want -- and they want even less to see their friends, family, and neighbors come home dead. Everyone supports the troops returning home alive and all of us need to reach out and let their families know that. Unfortunately, Bush and Co. are not through yet. This invasion and conquest will encourage them to do it again elsewhere. The real purpose of this war was to say to the rest of the world, "Don't Mess with Texas - If You Got What We Want, We're Coming to Get It!" This is not the time for the majority of us who believe in a peaceful America to be quiet. Make your voices heard. Despite what they have pulled off, it is still our country. Yours, Michael Moore www.michaelmoore.com Please FORWARD to Everyone From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Apr 9 21:44:21 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id VAA28032; Wed, 9 Apr 2003 21:39:44 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2003 21:39:44 -0700 From: "xplorer" To: Subject: RE: Tell us again why you opposed the US in this war! Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 11:38:28 +0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <007001c2fedc$feace880$1202a8c0@WorkGroup> Resent-Message-ID: <"A41gg3.0.xr6.GMFb-"@mx1> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/1643 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: No one seems to have picked up on the fact that the manual for interogation (Psychology of Interrogation) was written in French with arabic translation... > -----Original Message----- > From: Dave N. [mailto:dnarby@PunkAss.com] > Sent: Thursday, 2003 April 10 04:14 > To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com > Subject: Tell us again why you opposed the US in this war! > > >x< > Notice it's not what they report > as much as what they *leave out* of a story. - Dave > > http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,83619,00.html > > Iraqis Tell of Torture in Secret Police Jail > Tuesday, April 08, 2003 > > BASRA, Iraq ? Iraqis showed journalists a white stone jail where they >x< > +++++ > > http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/2930739.stm > > Inside Saddam's torture chamber > By Bill Neely > Basra, southern Iraq > >x< +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > On the ground I found a book called the Psychology of Interrogation, > as if the men who worked here needed a handbook. >x< > > No one knows yet whether the new Iraq will be the kind of place where > children can grow up free of the fear, the horror of torture. Probably not, if history is any kind of a guide... From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Apr 10 07:49:36 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id HAA15262; Thu, 10 Apr 2003 07:45:16 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 07:45:16 -0700 Message-ID: <000d01c2ff6f$bb81e4a0$1202a8c0@WorkGroup> From: "Dave N." To: References: Subject: Re: Tell us again why you opposed the US in this war! Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 01:56:10 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 X-HotPOP: ----------------------------------------------- Sent By HotPOP.com FREE Email Get your FREE POP email at www.HotPOP.com ----------------------------------------------- Resent-Message-ID: <"ReiLR1.0.Kk3.yDOb-"@mx1> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/1644 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Hey X, | No one seems to have picked up on the fact that the | manual for interogation (Psychology of Interrogation) | was written in French with arabic translation... | What?! Where did you read that? | > No one knows yet whether the new Iraq will be the kind of place where | > children can grow up free of the fear, the horror of torture. | | Probably not, if history is any kind of a guide... Well, they stand a better chance without Sodamn Insane, that's for sure - *And* if we do the right thing by the Iraqis. Those people have been screwed over by the west time and time again. We owe them big time. Best, Dave From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Apr 10 09:46:47 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id JAA30971; Thu, 10 Apr 2003 09:41:05 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 09:41:05 -0700 Message-ID: <018701c2ff7f$e481b370$37b23b41@annamort> Reply-To: "Anna M*" From: "Anna M*" To: "MetaExistence" Subject: The reality of war Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 09:40:19 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id JAA30894 Resent-Message-ID: <"tLXkc1.0.sZ7.WwPb-"@mx1> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/1645 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: The Reality Of War The Daily Reckoning Rome, Italy Thursday, 10 April 2003 --------------------- *** Subjugating the desert tribes - will it bring prosperity? The stock market doesn't seem to think so... --------------------- The modern-day Parthians, Medes, Seleucians and other rag- tag tribes of Mesopotamia have been nearly subdued. Today's imperial army is master of Baghdad, just as Emperor Trajan was 1900 years ago, and Alexander the Great several hundred years earlier. Mommsen's history tells us that Trajan, like Bush, faced resistance that was incompetent and disorganized. But the Parthians were treacherous and untrustworthy - even in their enslaved state. Just when the future seemed to be going as planned...and Trajan's expectations were at their bubble peak...the gods had plans of their own... "This moment, when Trajan seemed to have achieved all he had set out to do and stood at the peak of his power," Mommsen explains, "was seized on by all the recently subjugated nations to throw off their allegiance..." Trajan himself was almost killed...and died not long after... "...leaving his plans cut off in mid-execution," Mommsen continues. "Nevertheless, they cannot be accorded much chance of survival; there was a great deal of vain glory in them, and the entire enterprise is not to be taken seriously." We have come to Rome...and are sinking deep into the ruins of it. Our apartment overlooks the Capitoline on one side and unidentified old stones and bricks on the other. No empire was ever as long-lived...as grandiose...or as absurdly extravagant as the Roman example. None ever took on so many potential terrorists in so many different areas...and brought most of them to heel. What can be learned from her? Probably nothing. But here we give readers fair warning: that won't stop us from reciting various passages as if they were important. And now what? Have the problems that bedeviled the U.S. economy been blown away by the same Abrams tanks and B1 bombers that liberated Baghdad? Do consumers now have less debt...or more money to spend? Will corporate profits rise...and businesses begin hiring again? Investors had great expectations. But yesterday's market suggested that the victory on the Tigris may be a bit of a let-down. Stocks fell, the dollar fell, while gold rose $3.30. Gold is what people buy when their expectations turn a little less great. Over the next few years - as we keep saying - it would not surprise us if they bought even more of it. Over to Eric in New York: ----------- Eric Fry, reporting from Wall Street... - The stock market keeled over yesterday like a Saddam Hussein statue. The Dow toppled 101 points to 8,198 and the Nasdaq collapsed 26 to 1,357. Meanwhile, caution re- emerged, as bonds, gold and oil all rallied. - "Traders are hoping that as the statue of Saddam Hussein comes down, the green arrows will go up," yelped a hyper- excited Maria Bartiromo yesterday on CNBC's morning broadcast. Maria was referring to a live TV shot of a couple hundred "Baghdadians" toppling one of the couple thousand statues of Saddam Hussein that dot the Iraqi landscape. The statue's collapse triggered a brisk 90-point Dow rally. But the exuberance quickly faded, and the green arrows that Bartiromo had breathlessly anticipated turned a brilliant shade of red. - "At some point, and this moment may already be upon us," Ken Brown wrote prophetically in Wednesday morning's Wall Street Journal, "a TV image of soldiers blowing up a statue of Saddam Hussein will no longer set off a 100-point stock- market rally. Instead those annoying little details such as corporate earnings, growth prospects and valuation will reclaim their hold on the market." That dreaded moment seems to have arrived, as the growth-challenged US economy regains its stranglehold around the throat of the stock market, finger by finger. - Now that the "shock and awe" phase of the Iraqi war is drawing to a close, investors must acclimate themselves to the somewhat less exhilarating "occupy and reconstruct" phase. We doubt that this latter phase will get the bullish juices flowing on Wall Street. Nor can investors expect too many thrills back on the home front, as the post-bubble economy continues muddling through its "scrimp and save" phase. - But what about all of the "sideline" cash that has been piling up in money market funds for the last few months? Won't that rescue the stock market? According to the Investment Company Institute, fund managers have access to some $110 billion of cash sitting in stock mutual funds, and are ready to marshal these reserves at a moment's notice and charge into the stock market to secure the Dow Jones Industrial Average for the bulls. Furthermore, some $2.2 trillion is parked in money market funds. - Some market observers point to these billions (and trillions) of dollars sitting in bond funds and money market funds and say, "Aha! Look at all that cash that could storm into the stock market!" We look at that same pile of cash sitting in bond funds and say, "Wow! Look at all the cash that could flee the bond market!" Sure, the money MIGHT go into the stock market. But first, it would DEFINITELY come out of the bond market. In other words, not every bond fund seller will rush to buy 100 shares of Cisco Systems. Some might, instead, pay their taxes or buy groceries. - Who knows? Some bond fund sellers might even use the proceeds to make a down payment on a house...thereby swapping out of the bond bubble and into the housing bubble, if we may label either market a "bubble". Let's consult the experts: Alan Greenspan is no help whatsoever. By his own admission, the Chairman could not spot a bubble, even if it landed on his morning newspaper. By contrast, the International Monetary Fund claims a sort of clairvoyant vision. The august global financial body believes it sees a housing bubble in the making, and isn't afraid to say so. - "Housing booms such as those in the US and the UK over the past decade are frequently followed by crashes," the Financial Times reports. "Ken Rogoff, the [IMF's] chief economist, warned that the long boom in house prices - up 28 percent in the US since 1996, and 70 per cent in the UK since 1994, adjusted for inflation - put them in danger territory. 'Forty percent of all housing booms are followed by busts, with housing price drops that typically average 25-30 per cent,' Mr. Rogoff said." - Why worry? According to Rogoff's statistics, 60% of housing booms are NOT followed by busts...Sleep tight! ----------- Bill Bonner, back in Rome... *** Our old friend, Rick Ackerman, shares a letter from a reader: "There may be deflation in hard assets, but my auto insurance just went up 20%, my medical insurance just went up 18%, my homeowners insurance just went up 20%. Gasoline in my area is selling at $2.20 to $2.75 per gallon. The price of food items appears to be coming down in price - until you start to read the per ounce or other unit prices and find that actually, prices are rising. Yes, the price of computers is falling. There is the fool's belief that there is zero financing for autos, but in fact you are prepaying the interest if you take the deal. Cash or other financing gives you thousands off of the sticker price. Nobody is giving anything away. You may claim deflation, I claim a rising cost of living. What interests me is not what the numbers are manipulated to imply, but what it actually costs me to live from day to day. That is what I call inflation." Yes, Rick comments, but what is really happening is that the consumers' cost-of-living is rising at a time when he can least afford it - when he is carrying more debt than ever before. When he gets a $30,000 college tuition bill, he can't pay it without either refinancing his house - which increases his debt load - or selling assets. Or going broke. Either way, the effect might be a debt implosion, not inflation: "For example, take college tuitions and healthcare costs, which have been rising so steeply that, for most households, these necessities have recently come to exceed the limit of affordability. How could we not view surging healthcare bills and tuition costs as inflationary? Well, for those who remember the 1970s, the salient characteristic of inflation was that rising costs could be - and mostly were - readily passed through the system. This is no longer true, however, nor has it been true for more than a decade. For many businesses in the U.S., especially those involved in manufacturing, rising costs cannot be passed so easily on to the consumer; instead, they are ultimately charged against profits. As should be clear in this still-deepening recession, falling profits are deflationary to the extent they lead to lower employment as well as to lower stock market valuations." [Editor's Note: For more on the inflation/deflation debate, see Dr. Hans Sennholz' article: "The Perils of Deflation"] http://www.dailyreckoning.com/body_headline.cfm?id=3084 http://www.agora-inc.com/reports/FST/SeeMoreNow/ --------------------- The Daily Reckoning PRESENTS: As the international geopolitical scene grows ever more tense, what are the foreseeable long-term repercussions? Taking a peek at tomorrow's headlines, Dr. Marc Faber admits that "the financial markets and financial intermediaries seem to me to be particularly vulnerable"... THE REALITY OF WAR by Marc Faber There is an important point investors should be aware of, which may have been overlooked during the peaceful and financial bubble years of the 1990s: wartimes are common in the history of the world; it is times of peace that are the exception. According to the historian Will Durant, war is one of the constants of history, and has not diminished with civilization or democracy. In the last 3,421 years of recorded history, only 268 have seen no war. Just look at the period between 1895 and 1918. During this brief span of years, there were continuous conflicts around the world, including the Russo-Japanese War (1895), the war between Turkey and Greece over Crete (1897), the Spanish- American War of 1898, the Anglo-Boer War of 1899-1902, the military expeditions of the great powers in China in 1900, the Russo-Japanese War (1904-1905), the Russian Revolution of 1905, the Turkish Revolution of 1908, the French military expedition in Morocco (1907), the military conflict between Italy and Turkey over Tripoli (1911), the First Balkan War (1912), the Second Balkan War (1913), the Chinese Revolution of 1911, the First World War (1914- 1918), the February Revolution in Russia (1917), the October Revolution and the Russian Civil War (1917-1921). According to Durant, the causes of war are the same as the causes of competition among individuals: acquisitiveness, pugnacity, and pride; the desire for food, land, materials, fuels, and mastery. The state has our instincts without our restraints. The individual submits to restraints laid upon him by morals and laws, and agrees to replace combat with conference, because the state guarantees him basic protection in his life, property, and legal rights. The state itself acknowledges no substantial restraints, either because it is strong enough to defy any interference with its will, or because there is no super-state to offer basic protection, and no international law or moral code wielding effective force. As to the causes of the Iraq war, I leave them to the reader to ponder. I am not necessarily suggesting that the next 20 years will be as turbulent as the first 20 years of the 20th century. But we must realize that the late 1980s and 1990s were extremely unusual from a historical point of view, since, aside from some minor conflicts, there were no major wars or revolutions. So, purely from a probability point of view, investors should not expect the relatively peaceful time that has followed the Korean War, and especially the peace dividend we have enjoyed over the last 15 years or so, to continue forever. The peace dividend that followed the end of the cold war was certainly a contributing factor to higher stock valuations around the world (declining interest rates and rising profits aside). If the world is now moving into an era of increased tensions, then this will be an additional negative factor for equity valuations. Moreover, during the relatively peaceful 50 years that followed the Second World War, trade as a percentage of GDP increased rapidly and peace allowed a truly global capital market to be created, both of which factors were favorable for economic development around the world. As a percentage of the world's GDP, trade increased from around 5% in the 1950s to over 20% at present. Moreover, since the creation of a truly global capital market in the late 1980s, international capital flows financed the investment boom in the emerging economies in the early 1990s, and have in the last few years financed the excessive consumption in the U.S., which is reflected by the growing American current account deficit. If we assume, therefore, that rising global trade and an increase in global financial flows had something to do with peace around the world in the 1990s, we should also assume that in the case of increased geopolitical tensions and, especially, a major conflict, there could be some interruption in these favorable trade and financial trends. In the worst case, severe geopolitical tensions could lead to an interruption of free trade or of international financial flows and bring about supply shortages, trade embargos or outright trade wars, the imposition of foreign exchange controls, and even the freezing of assets held by foreigners or, in an extreme case, their outright expropriation. In short, the financial markets and financial intermediaries seem to me to be particularly vulnerable, since they have become so disproportionately large in comparison to the real economy. One point is clear to me. In the next major conflict in the world, the derivatives market is most likely to cease to exist, since financial institutions throughout the world hold derivative positions. Therefore, if one major player somewhere in the world doesn't settle or fails altogether, a vicious chain reaction could follow, with the result that the markets will be closed. It is not my intention to sound alarmist, but I think that investors who grew up during the last 50 years have no idea of what unpleasant financial and economic consequences might result from a major conflict. Throughout history, asset freezes, the imposition of foreign exchange controls, and expropriations have been very common, and I have no doubt that sometime in the future we shall experience such emergency measures once again. Therefore, investors should seriously consider diversifying not only their assets, but also how they hold those assets. To hold all of one's assets in one country with just one financial institution may be imprudent in an age of rising risks of international conflicts. Consequently, an investor may want to hold some of his assets in the U.S., but also consider the ownership of assets through a foreign bank or the holding of real estate in a foreign country. Such diversified allocation is an important - if not essential - safeguard against the negative consequences of major conflict. Regards, Marc Faber, for The Daily Reckoning From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Apr 10 09:54:42 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id JAA03555; Thu, 10 Apr 2003 09:49:25 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 09:49:25 -0700 Message-ID: <01ab01c2ff81$193234e0$37b23b41@annamort> Reply-To: "Anna M*" From: "Anna M*" To: "MetaExistence" Subject: Terror Law Made Permanent? Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 09:49:02 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id JAA03520 Resent-Message-ID: <"Lzabi1.0.Ut.L2Qb-"@mx1> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/1646 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Republicans Want Terror Law Made Permanent By ERIC LICHTBLAU WASHINGTON, April 8 — Working with the Bush administration, Congressional Republicans are maneuvering to make permanent the sweeping antiterrorism powers granted to federal law enforcement agents after the attacks of Sept. 11, 2001, officials said today. The move is likely to touch off strong objections from many Democrats and even some Republicans in Congress who believe that the Patriot Act, as the legislation that grew out of the attacks is known, has already given the government too much power to spy on Americans. Advertisement The landmark legislation expanded the government's power to use eavesdropping, surveillance, access to financial and computer records and other tools to track terrorist suspects. When it passed in October 2001, moderates and civil libertarians in Congress agreed to support it only by making many critical provisions temporary. Those provisions will expire, or "sunset," at the end of 2005 unless Congress re-authorizes them. But Republicans in the Senate in recent days have discussed a proposal, written by Senator Orrin G. Hatch, Republican of Utah, that would repeal the sunset provisions and make the law's new powers permanent, officials said. Republicans may seek to move on the proposal this week by trying to attaching it to another antiterrorism bill that would make it easier for the government to use secret surveillance warrants against "lone wolf" terrorism suspects. Many Democrats have grown increasingly frustrated by what they see as a lack of information from the Justice Department on how its agents are using their newfound powers, and they say they need more time to determine whether agents are abusing those powers. The Senate Democratic leader, Tom Daschle of South Dakota, said today that without extensive review, he "would be very strongly opposed to any repeal" of the 2005 time limit. He predicted that Republicans lacked the votes to repeal the limits. Indeed, Congressional officials and political observers said the debate might force lawmakers to take stock of how far they were willing to sacrifice civil liberties in the name of fighting terrorism. Beryl Howell, a former Democratic aide in the Senate who worked extensively on the 2001 legislation, said that by forcing the issue, Mr. Hatch "is throwing down the gauntlet to people who think the U.S.A. Patriot Act went too far and who want to cut back its powers." Justice Department officials in interviews today credited the Patriot Act with allowing the F.B.I. to move with greater speed and flexibility to disrupt terrorist operations before they occur, and they say they wanted to see the 2005 time limit on the legislation lifted. "The Patriot Act has been an extremely useful tool, a demonstrated success, and we don't want that to expire on us," a senior department official said on condition of anonymity. Another senior official who also demanded anonymity said the department had held discussions with Congressional Republicans about how that might best be accomplished. "Our involvement has really been just keeping an open ear to the issue as it's proceeding, not to really guide the debate," the official said. With the act's provisions not set to expire for more than two and a half years, officials expected that the debate over its future would be many months away. But political jockeying over separate bipartisan legislation sponsored by Senators Jon Kyl, Republican of Arizona, and Charles E. Schumer, Democrat of New York, appears to have given Senator Hatch the chance to move on the issue much earlier than expected. The Kyl-Schumer measure would eliminate the need for federal agents seeking secret surveillance warrants to show that a suspect is affiliated with a foreign power or agent, like a terrorist group. Advocates say the measure would make it easier for agents to go after "lone wolf" terrorists who are not connected to a foreign group and might have allowed the F.B.I. to get a warrant against Zacarias Moussaoui, known as the 20th hijacker, before the Sept. 11 attacks. The proposal was approved unanimously by the Senate Judiciary Committee. But Republicans are upset because several Democrats say that when the measure reaches the Senate floor for a full vote, perhaps this week or later in the month, they plan to offer amendments that would impose tougher restrictions on the use of secret warrants. Among other proposals, Senator Russell D. Feingold, Democrat of Wisconsin, wants to add amendments that would require the Justice Department to give detailed information about how the secret warrants are being used and that could give defense lawyers access to some information generated by the warrants in criminal cases. Republicans are countering with amendments of their own, including the idea of making the Patriot Act permanent. Aides to Senator Hatch would not discuss his views on repealing the time limits in the law. But an aide who demanded anonymity said of the "lone wolf" bill: "We support this bill as it is and that's how we want to see it passed. If the Democrats want to amend the bill, then we will offer an equal number of amendments to improve the bill as well. We hope the Democrats will stop holding this bill up." Members of the Judiciary Committee, which Mr. Hatch leads, have been working in recent days to reach an agreement over the amendments that will be considered, officials said. But so far neither side appears willing to back down. Forum: Join a Discussion on The 108th Congress Doing research? Search the archive for more than 500,000 articles: Expect the World every morning with home delivery of The New York Times newspaper. ---------- http://www.nytimes.com/2003/04/09/international/worldspecial/09TERR.html?ex=10 From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Apr 10 10:10:02 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id KAA13639; Thu, 10 Apr 2003 10:06:44 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 10:06:44 -0700 From: "xplorer" To: Subject: RE: Tell us again why you opposed the US in this war! Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2003 00:05:34 +0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <000d01c2ff6f$bb81e4a0$1202a8c0@WorkGroup> Resent-Message-ID: <"yIIxP.0.2L3.ZIQb-"@mx1> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/1647 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: When they showed the prison, the cameraman's field of view passed over the manual, and a page was momentarily visible. No one mentioned it, and later video cuts seemed to omit what was shown - a page with clearly legible Arabic paragraphs between paragraphs written in French. I assumed someone with a bit of savvy in such matters would have written a news item on this by now. Or, as usual, it's being buried to assist diplomatic efforts. Or what was shown was not actually the manual... It's just a footnote to current events, at any rate. On their chances for a better future: Having worked in that region for a few years, I can tell you now that the chance this area will see peace can best be described as an imaginary number. These people are living proof of that over time, the predator personality is refined in a static environment such as the Middle East provides. The continuing struggle to exist in this arid region has produced a culture of such violence that most Americans will never comprehend. These people have been hunting the weaker elements of their society for several thousand years, and a four week (or one year, for that matter...) effort is not going to have any real effect on their culture. After all is said and done, and all the uniforms go home, they will go back to killing and torturing each other all over again. That's what they do. It's not as if they are inherently evil, it is simply a matter of geography and history. No science programs, no great medical efforts, no star sports figures, no hallowed halls of education - just over and over again the strong ripping off the less fortunate down into the sands of time. I remember sitting in the desert during afternoon tea one day, watching the labour - they weren't so much interested in breaking bread or enjoying a tea break for the tea - they were too busy trying out some new ammo they had bought in town for their AK-47's. There is no hope for those living in the Middle East. None whatsoever, outside of moving away to greener pastures in places where violence is not a way of life. > -----Original Message----- > From: Dave N. [mailto:dnarby@PunkAss.com] > Sent: Thursday, 2003 April 10 12:56 > To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com > Subject: Re: Tell us again why you opposed the US in this war! > > > Hey X, > > | No one seems to have picked up on the fact that the > | manual for interogation (Psychology of Interrogation) > | was written in French with arabic translation... > | > > What?! Where did you read that? > > > | > No one knows yet whether the new Iraq will be the kind of place where > | > children can grow up free of the fear, the horror of torture. > | > | Probably not, if history is any kind of a guide... > > Well, they stand a better chance without Sodamn Insane, that's > for sure - *And* if we do the > right thing by the Iraqis. Those people have been screwed over > by the west time and time again. > We owe them big time. > > Best, > > Dave > > > From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Apr 10 11:30:53 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id LAA30809; Thu, 10 Apr 2003 11:22:01 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 11:22:01 -0700 Message-ID: <019901c2ff8d$eb70b920$1202a8c0@WorkGroup> From: "Dave N." To: References: <018701c2ff7f$e481b370$37b23b41@annamort> Subject: Re: The reality of war Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 14:17:14 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 X-HotPOP: ----------------------------------------------- Sent By HotPOP.com FREE Email Get your FREE POP email at www.HotPOP.com ----------------------------------------------- Resent-Message-ID: <"-Ig54.0.8X7.8PRb-"@mx1> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/1648 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Bla bla bla bla... I vote we go after this whack job next: http://www.heraldsun.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5478,6206548%5E663,00.html Dave When the oppressed joyfully embrace their liberators, remember those who acted to keep them enslaved. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Anna M*" To: "MetaExistence" Sent: Thursday, April 10, 2003 12:40 PM Subject: The reality of war | The Reality Of War | | The Daily Reckoning | | Rome, Italy | | Thursday, 10 April 2003 | | --------------------- | | *** Subjugating the desert tribes - will it bring | prosperity? The stock market doesn't seem to think so... | | | --------------------- | | The modern-day Parthians, Medes, Seleucians and other rag- | tag tribes of Mesopotamia have been nearly subdued. Today's | imperial army is master of Baghdad, just as Emperor Trajan | was 1900 years ago, and Alexander the Great several hundred | years earlier. | | Mommsen's history tells us that Trajan, like Bush, faced | resistance that was incompetent and disorganized. | | But the Parthians were treacherous and untrustworthy - even | in their enslaved state. Just when the future seemed to be | going as planned...and Trajan's expectations were at their | bubble peak...the gods had plans of their own... | | "This moment, when Trajan seemed to have achieved all he | had set out to do and stood at the peak of his power," | Mommsen explains, "was seized on by all the recently | subjugated nations to throw off their allegiance..." | | Trajan himself was almost killed...and died not long | after... | | "...leaving his plans cut off in mid-execution," Mommsen | continues. "Nevertheless, they cannot be accorded much | chance of survival; there was a great deal of vain glory in | them, and the entire enterprise is not to be taken | seriously." | | We have come to Rome...and are sinking deep into the ruins | of it. Our apartment overlooks the Capitoline on one side | and unidentified old stones and bricks on the other. No | empire was ever as long-lived...as grandiose...or as | absurdly extravagant as the Roman example. None ever took | on so many potential terrorists in so many different | areas...and brought most of them to heel. | | What can be learned from her? Probably nothing. But here we | give readers fair warning: that won't stop us from reciting | various passages as if they were important. | | And now what? Have the problems that bedeviled the U.S. | economy been blown away by the same Abrams tanks and B1 | bombers that liberated Baghdad? Do consumers now have less | debt...or more money to spend? Will corporate profits | rise...and businesses begin hiring again? | | Investors had great expectations. But yesterday's market | suggested that the victory on the Tigris may be a bit of a | let-down. Stocks fell, the dollar fell, while gold rose | $3.30. Gold is what people buy when their expectations turn | a little less great. Over the next few years - as we keep | saying - it would not surprise us if they bought even more | of it. | | Over to Eric in New York: | | ----------- | | Eric Fry, reporting from Wall Street... | | - The stock market keeled over yesterday like a Saddam | Hussein statue. The Dow toppled 101 points to 8,198 and the | Nasdaq collapsed 26 to 1,357. Meanwhile, caution re- | emerged, as bonds, gold and oil all rallied. | | - "Traders are hoping that as the statue of Saddam Hussein | comes down, the green arrows will go up," yelped a hyper- | excited Maria Bartiromo yesterday on CNBC's morning | broadcast. Maria was referring to a live TV shot of a | couple hundred "Baghdadians" toppling one of the couple | thousand statues of Saddam Hussein that dot the Iraqi | landscape. The statue's collapse triggered a brisk 90-point | Dow rally. But the exuberance quickly faded, and the green | arrows that Bartiromo had breathlessly anticipated turned a | brilliant shade of red. | | - "At some point, and this moment may already be upon us," | Ken Brown wrote prophetically in Wednesday morning's Wall | Street Journal, "a TV image of soldiers blowing up a statue | of Saddam Hussein will no longer set off a 100-point stock- | market rally. Instead those annoying little details such as | corporate earnings, growth prospects and valuation will | reclaim their hold on the market." That dreaded moment | seems to have arrived, as the growth-challenged US economy | regains its stranglehold around the throat of the stock | market, finger by finger. | | - Now that the "shock and awe" phase of the Iraqi war is | drawing to a close, investors must acclimate themselves to | the somewhat less exhilarating "occupy and reconstruct" | phase. We doubt that this latter phase will get the bullish | juices flowing on Wall Street. Nor can investors expect too | many thrills back on the home front, as the post-bubble | economy continues muddling through its "scrimp and save" | phase. | | - But what about all of the "sideline" cash that has been | piling up in money market funds for the last few months? | Won't that rescue the stock market? According to the | Investment Company Institute, fund managers have access to | some $110 billion of cash sitting in stock mutual funds, | and are ready to marshal these reserves at a moment's | notice and charge into the stock market to secure the Dow | Jones Industrial Average for the bulls. Furthermore, some | $2.2 trillion is parked in money market funds. | | - Some market observers point to these billions (and | trillions) of dollars sitting in bond funds and money | market funds and say, "Aha! Look at all that cash that | could storm into the stock market!" We look at that same | pile of cash sitting in bond funds and say, "Wow! Look at | all the cash that could flee the bond market!" Sure, the | money MIGHT go into the stock market. But first, it would | DEFINITELY come out of the bond market. In other words, not | every bond fund seller will rush to buy 100 shares of Cisco | Systems. Some might, instead, pay their taxes or buy | groceries. | | - Who knows? Some bond fund sellers might even use the | proceeds to make a down payment on a house...thereby | swapping out of the bond bubble and into the housing | bubble, if we may label either market a "bubble". Let's | consult the experts: Alan Greenspan is no help whatsoever. | By his own admission, the Chairman could not spot a bubble, | even if it landed on his morning newspaper. By contrast, | the International Monetary Fund claims a sort of | clairvoyant vision. The august global financial body | believes it sees a housing bubble in the making, and isn't | afraid to say so. | | - "Housing booms such as those in the US and the UK over | the past decade are frequently followed by crashes," the | Financial Times reports. "Ken Rogoff, the [IMF's] chief | economist, warned that the long boom in house prices - up | 28 percent in the US since 1996, and 70 per cent in the UK | since 1994, adjusted for inflation - put them in danger | territory. 'Forty percent of all housing booms are followed | by busts, with housing price drops that typically average | 25-30 per cent,' Mr. Rogoff said." | | - Why worry? According to Rogoff's statistics, 60% of | housing booms are NOT followed by busts...Sleep tight! | | ----------- | | Bill Bonner, back in Rome... | | *** Our old friend, Rick Ackerman, shares a letter from a | reader: | | "There may be deflation in hard assets, but my auto | insurance just went up 20%, my medical insurance just went | up 18%, my homeowners insurance just went up 20%. Gasoline | in my area is selling at $2.20 to $2.75 per gallon. The | price of food items appears to be coming down in price - | until you start to read the per ounce or other unit prices | and find that actually, prices are rising. Yes, the price | of computers is falling. There is the fool's belief that | there is zero financing for autos, but in fact you are | prepaying the interest if you take the deal. Cash or other | financing gives you thousands off of the sticker price. | Nobody is giving anything away. You may claim deflation, I | claim a rising cost of living. What interests me is not | what the numbers are manipulated to imply, but what it | actually costs me to live from day to day. That is what I | call inflation." | | Yes, Rick comments, but what is really happening is that | the consumers' cost-of-living is rising at a time when he | can least afford it - when he is carrying more debt than | ever before. When he gets a $30,000 college tuition bill, | he can't pay it without either refinancing his house - | which increases his debt load - or selling assets. Or going | broke. Either way, the effect might be a debt implosion, | not inflation: | | "For example, take college tuitions and healthcare costs, | which have been rising so steeply that, for most | households, these necessities have recently come to exceed | the limit of affordability. How could we not view surging | healthcare bills and tuition costs as inflationary? Well, | for those who remember the 1970s, the salient | characteristic of inflation was that rising costs could be | - and mostly were - readily passed through the system. This | is no longer true, however, nor has it been true for more | than a decade. For many businesses in the U.S., especially | those involved in manufacturing, rising costs cannot be | passed so easily on to the consumer; instead, they are | ultimately charged against profits. As should be clear in | this still-deepening recession, falling profits are | deflationary to the extent they lead to lower employment as | well as to lower stock market valuations." | | [Editor's Note: For more on the inflation/deflation debate, | see Dr. Hans Sennholz' article: "The Perils of Deflation"] | http://www.dailyreckoning.com/body_headline.cfm?id=3084 | | http://www.agora-inc.com/reports/FST/SeeMoreNow/ | | --------------------- | | The Daily Reckoning PRESENTS: As the international | geopolitical scene grows ever more tense, what are the | foreseeable long-term repercussions? Taking a peek at | tomorrow's headlines, Dr. Marc Faber admits that "the | financial markets and financial intermediaries seem to me | to be particularly vulnerable"... | | | THE REALITY OF WAR | by Marc Faber | | There is an important point investors should be aware of, | which may have been overlooked during the peaceful and | financial bubble years of the 1990s: wartimes are common in | the history of the world; it is times of peace that are the | exception. According to the historian Will Durant, war is | one of the constants of history, and has not diminished | with civilization or democracy. In the last 3,421 years of | recorded history, only 268 have seen no war. | | Just look at the period between 1895 and 1918. During this | brief span of years, there were continuous conflicts around | the world, including the Russo-Japanese War (1895), the war | between Turkey and Greece over Crete (1897), the Spanish- | American War of 1898, the Anglo-Boer War of 1899-1902, the | military expeditions of the great powers in China in 1900, | the Russo-Japanese War (1904-1905), the Russian Revolution | of 1905, the Turkish Revolution of 1908, the French | military expedition in Morocco (1907), the military | conflict between Italy and Turkey over Tripoli (1911), the | First Balkan War (1912), the Second Balkan War (1913), the | Chinese Revolution of 1911, the First World War (1914- | 1918), the February Revolution in Russia (1917), the | October Revolution and the Russian Civil War (1917-1921). | | According to Durant, the causes of war are the same as the | causes of competition among individuals: acquisitiveness, | pugnacity, and pride; the desire for food, land, materials, | fuels, and mastery. The state has our instincts without our | restraints. The individual submits to restraints laid upon | him by morals and laws, and agrees to replace combat with | conference, because the state guarantees him basic | protection in his life, property, and legal rights. The | state itself acknowledges no substantial restraints, either | because it is strong enough to defy any interference with | its will, or because there is no super-state to offer basic | protection, and no international law or moral code wielding | effective force. | | As to the causes of the Iraq war, I leave them to the | reader to ponder. | | I am not necessarily suggesting that the next 20 years will | be as turbulent as the first 20 years of the 20th century. | But we must realize that the late 1980s and 1990s were | extremely unusual from a historical point of view, since, | aside from some minor conflicts, there were no major wars | or revolutions. So, purely from a probability point of | view, investors should not expect the relatively peaceful | time that has followed the Korean War, and especially the | peace dividend we have enjoyed over the last 15 years or | so, to continue forever. | | The peace dividend that followed the end of the cold war | was certainly a contributing factor to higher stock | valuations around the world (declining interest rates and | rising profits aside). If the world is now moving into an | era of increased tensions, then this will be an additional | negative factor for equity valuations. Moreover, during the | relatively peaceful 50 years that followed the Second World | War, trade as a percentage of GDP increased rapidly and | peace allowed a truly global capital market to be created, | both of which factors were favorable for economic | development around the world. As a percentage of the | world's GDP, trade increased from around 5% in the 1950s to | over 20% at present. | | Moreover, since the creation of a truly global capital | market in the late 1980s, international capital flows | financed the investment boom in the emerging economies in | the early 1990s, and have in the last few years financed | the excessive consumption in the U.S., which is reflected | by the growing American current account deficit. | | If we assume, therefore, that rising global trade and an | increase in global financial flows had something to do with | peace around the world in the 1990s, we should also assume | that in the case of increased geopolitical tensions and, | especially, a major conflict, there could be some | interruption in these favorable trade and financial trends. | In the worst case, severe geopolitical tensions could lead | to an interruption of free trade or of international | financial flows and bring about supply shortages, trade | embargos or outright trade wars, the imposition of foreign | exchange controls, and even the freezing of assets held by | foreigners or, in an extreme case, their outright | expropriation. | | In short, the financial markets and financial | intermediaries seem to me to be particularly vulnerable, | since they have become so disproportionately large in | comparison to the real economy. One point is clear to me. | In the next major conflict in the world, the derivatives | market is most likely to cease to exist, since financial | institutions throughout the world hold derivative | positions. Therefore, if one major player somewhere in the | world doesn't settle or fails altogether, a vicious chain | reaction could follow, with the result that the markets | will be closed. | | It is not my intention to sound alarmist, but I think that | investors who grew up during the last 50 years have no idea | of what unpleasant financial and economic consequences | might result from a major conflict. Throughout history, | asset freezes, the imposition of foreign exchange controls, | and expropriations have been very common, and I have no | doubt that sometime in the future we shall experience such | emergency measures once again. Therefore, investors should | seriously consider diversifying not only their assets, but | also how they hold those assets. | | To hold all of one's assets in one country with just one | financial institution may be imprudent in an age of rising | risks of international conflicts. Consequently, an investor | may want to hold some of his assets in the U.S., but also | consider the ownership of assets through a foreign bank or | the holding of real estate in a foreign country. | | Such diversified allocation is an important - if not | essential - safeguard against the negative consequences of | major conflict. | | | Regards, | | | Marc Faber, | for The Daily Reckoning | | | | From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Apr 10 12:17:51 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id MAA28358; Thu, 10 Apr 2003 12:13:51 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 12:13:51 -0700 Message-ID: <030101c2ff95$3e47ad50$37b23b41@annamort> Reply-To: "Anna M*" From: "Anna M*" To: "MetaExistence" Subject: War view drew US threats: Malaysia Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 12:13:14 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id MAA28325 Resent-Message-ID: <"-Ti2c1.0._w6.k9Sb-"@mx1> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/1649 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: War view drew US threats: Malaysia April 11 2003 By Jasbant Singh Kuala Lumpur The US Government last month threatened Malaysia with diplomatic and economic reprisals for seemingly "fanning anti-American sentiment" with its staunch opposition to the war in Iraq, senior Malaysian Government officials said yesterday. But Washington decided against such action after Malaysia's acting Prime Minister Abdullah Ahmad Badawi assured a US diplomat that the South-East Asian nation was not a foe of the US. A US State Department official last month warned Malaysia's ambassador in Washington that it might pull its ambassador out of Kuala Lumpur, urge American businesses to leave Malaysia and discourage further investments in the Muslim-majority country of 24 million people. Mr Abdullah, who is standing in for Prime Minister Mahathir Mohamad while he is on a two-month holiday, subsequently met US ambassador to Malaysia Marie Huhtala and assured her that "Malaysia's anti-war stance should not be seen as being anti-US". "The tense situation has somewhat abated," the official said. "Abdullah made it clear that the Malaysian Government's disagreement with the US Administration is confined to the war in Iraq and should not be taken out of context." Another official said Washington had accepted the explanation and "it appears that they (the US Government) are not going to pursue the matter". Frank Whitaker, a spokesman for the US embassy in Kuala Lumpur, confirmed that Mr Abdullah met Ms Huhtala on March 22, but denied that there had been any threats against Malaysia. "The meeting emphasised that the United States and Malaysia have a strong relationship and that relationship remains a high priority for both governments," Mr Whitaker said. "It is ridiculous to suggest that the US had threatened any retaliation against Malaysia." But other diplomatic sources said the US Government had been upset with Dr Mahathir's unstinting criticism of US policy towards Iraq, less than a year after the Malaysian leader met US President George Bush at the White House and was hailed as an ally in the global fight against terrorism. Dr Mahathir, who has led Malaysia since 1981, said last month that Washington had acted like a coward and bully in invading Iraq. He said that the US and its allies were targeting Islamic countries and that Iran, Sudan and Libya could be next. In February, Dr Mahathir said in a speech to leaders of mostly developing countries at the 116-nation Non-Aligned Movement summit in Kuala Lumpur that the US drive against terrorism and Iraq had become a campaign to dominate non-white nations. The US State Department summoned Malaysia's envoy in Washington several times after the summit, apparently concerned over Malaysia's increasing influence. Malaysia is chairman of the Non-Aligned Movement. - AP From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Apr 10 12:22:29 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id MAA30962; Thu, 10 Apr 2003 12:18:23 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 12:18:23 -0700 Message-ID: <019a01c2ff8d$ebc4a580$1202a8c0@WorkGroup> From: "Dave N." To: Subject: For once, I'm speechless. Mark it on you calendar. Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 14:18:01 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 X-HotPOP: ----------------------------------------------- Sent By HotPOP.com FREE Email Get your FREE POP email at www.HotPOP.com ----------------------------------------------- Resent-Message-ID: <"ptt4U3.0.bZ7._DSb-"@mx1> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/1650 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: http://www.firstgenetics.com/index.html From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Apr 12 17:08:45 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id RAA25376; Sat, 12 Apr 2003 17:05:24 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2003 17:05:24 -0700 Message-ID: <025c01c30150$54f59d20$1202a8c0@WorkGroup> From: "Dave N." To: References: Subject: Re: Tell us again why you opposed the US in this war! Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2003 20:04:43 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 X-HotPOP: ----------------------------------------------- Sent By HotPOP.com FREE Email Get your FREE POP email at www.HotPOP.com ----------------------------------------------- Resent-Message-ID: <"HBBDJ1.0.QC6.3dAc-"@mx1> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/1651 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X, Well, I don't mean to merely play Devil's advocate here, but I can conceive that an imbedded cameraman and reporter, after having hauled ass for 21 days, enduring lack of sleep, food, dust and the stress of being shot at might miss the fine points of what was printed on a manual. And it very well might take a very astute observer to eventually notice it on the tape... A friend of mine who's involved in movies says very few people can read fast enough to catch titles on books, words on the page etc. (that's why directors usually hold the camera on printed words like that for a long time). Also, if it wasn't one of those 24hr cable news outlets, it's not unusual for a network to run something just once However... It's also possible that if the reporters were unsympathetic to the US they might very well want to gloss over French complicity in Saddam's regime... Or what you proposed below. We'll have to wait and see. I'm actually optimistic about there being a possibility for true liberation in Iraq, here's why: Iraq is one of the most modern Arabic nations, and one of the most proud. A large portion of their pride comes from Iraq being the cradle of civilization. Attaching a good portion of your self identity to such an idea makes it more difficult to act outside that idea e.g. if your nation is the birthplace of civilization, then you must be civilized (and are encouraged to act accordingly). Couple a strong sense of nationalism to this and it's even more intense. I would also disagree with you about Iraq not having the trappings of a modern nation - they are one of the most educated nations in the Middle East. It's just they haven't been able to express that in their country because of the oppression of Saddam. Also, one of the first things I do when I get a new firearm or some special ammo is to go pop off a few rounds with it. So don't necessarily think that because you like to shoot your inherently barbaric. ; ) Again, time will tell. Best, Dave When the oppressed joyfully embrace their liberators, remember those who acted to keep them enslaved. ----- Original Message ----- From: "xplorer" To: Sent: Thursday, April 10, 2003 1:05 PM Subject: RE: Tell us again why you opposed the US in this war! | | When they showed the prison, | the cameraman's field of view passed over the manual, | and a page was momentarily visible. | No one mentioned it, and later video cuts seemed to omit | what was shown - a page with clearly legible Arabic paragraphs | between paragraphs written in French. | I assumed someone with a bit of savvy in such matters | would have written a news item on this by now. | Or, as usual, it's being buried to assist diplomatic efforts. | Or what was shown was not actually the manual... | It's just a footnote to current events, at any rate. | | On their chances for a better future: | Having worked in that region for a few years, | I can tell you now that the chance this area will see peace | can best be described as an imaginary number. | These people are living proof of that over time, | the predator personality is refined in a static environment | such as the Middle East provides. | The continuing struggle to exist in this arid region | has produced a culture of such violence | that most Americans will never comprehend. | These people have been hunting the weaker elements | of their society for several thousand years, | and a four week (or one year, for that matter...) effort | is not going to have any real effect on their culture. | After all is said and done, and all the uniforms go home, | they will go back to killing and torturing each other | all over again. That's what they do. | It's not as if they are inherently evil, | it is simply a matter of geography and history. | No science programs, no great medical efforts, | no star sports figures, no hallowed halls of education - | just over and over again the strong ripping off the less fortunate | down into the sands of time. | I remember sitting in the desert during afternoon tea one day, | watching the labour - they weren't so much interested in breaking bread | or enjoying a tea break for the tea - they were too busy | trying out some new ammo they had bought in town for their AK-47's. | | There is no hope for those living in the Middle East. | None whatsoever, outside of moving away to greener pastures | in places where violence is not a way of life. | | | > -----Original Message----- | > From: Dave N. [mailto:dnarby@PunkAss.com] | > Sent: Thursday, 2003 April 10 12:56 | > To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com | > Subject: Re: Tell us again why you opposed the US in this war! | > | > | > Hey X, | > | > | No one seems to have picked up on the fact that the | > | manual for interogation (Psychology of Interrogation) | > | was written in French with arabic translation... | > | | > | > What?! Where did you read that? | > | > | > | > No one knows yet whether the new Iraq will be the kind of place where | > | > children can grow up free of the fear, the horror of torture. | > | | > | Probably not, if history is any kind of a guide... | > | > Well, they stand a better chance without Sodamn Insane, that's | > for sure - *And* if we do the | > right thing by the Iraqis. Those people have been screwed over | > by the west time and time again. | > We owe them big time. | > | > Best, | > | > Dave | > | > | > | From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Apr 13 03:18:46 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id DAA11361; Sun, 13 Apr 2003 03:16:00 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2003 03:16:00 -0700 Message-ID: <032301c301a5$7f4ed410$60c19d40@annamort> Reply-To: "Anna M*" From: "Anna M*" To: "MetaExistence" Subject: Crime Against Humanity Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2003 03:14:35 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id DAA11297 Resent-Message-ID: <"0KfW_.0.Ln2.VZJc-"@mx1> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/1652 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: Crime Against Humanity by John Pilger Z Magazine Thursday 10 April 2003 A BBC television producer, moments before he was wounded by an American fighter aircraft that killed 18 people with "friendly fire", spoke to his mother on a satellite phone. Holding the phone over his head so that she could hear the sound of the American planes overhead, he said: "Listen, that's the sound of freedom." Did I read this scene in Catch-22? Surely, the BBC man was being ferociously ironic. I doubt it, just as I doubt that whoever designed the Observer's page three last Sunday had Joseph Heller in mind when he wrote the weasel headline: "The moment young Omar discovered the price of war". These cowardly words accompanied a photograph of an American marine reaching out to comfort 15-year-old Omar, having just participated in the mass murder of his father, mother, two sisters and brother during the unprovoked invasion of their homeland, in breach of the most basic law of civilised peoples. No true epitaph for them in Britain's famous liberal newspaper; no honest headline, such as: "This American marine murdered this boy's family". No photograph of Omar's father, mother, sisters and brother dismembered and blood-soaked by automatic fire. Versions of the Observer's propaganda picture have been appearing in the Anglo-American press since the invasion began: tender cameos of American troops reaching out, kneeling, ministering to their "liberated" victims. And where were the pictures from the village of Furat, where 80 men, women and children were rocketed to death? Apart from the Mirror, where were the pictures, and footage, of small children holding up their hands in terror while Bush's thugs forced their families to kneel in the street? Imagine that in a British high street. It is a glimpse of fascism, and we have a right to see it. "To initiate a war of aggression," said the judges in the Nuremberg trial of the Nazi leadership, "is not only an international crime; it is the supreme international crime differing only from other war crimes in that it contains within itself the accumulated evil of the whole." In stating this guiding principle of international law, the judges specifically rejected German arguments of the "necessity" for pre-emptive attacks against other countries. Nothing Bush and Blair, their cluster-bombing boys and their media court do now will change the truth of their great crime in Iraq. It is a matter of record, understood by the majority of humanity, if not by those who claim to speak for "us". As Denis Halliday said of the Anglo-American embargo against Iraq, it will "slaughter them in the history books". It was Halliday who, as assistant secretary general of the United Nations, set up the "oil for food" programme in Iraq in 1996 and quickly realised that the UN had become an instrument of "a genocidal attack on a whole society". He resigned in protest, as did his successor, Hans von Sponeck, who described "the wanton and shaming punishment of a nation". I have mentioned these two men often in these pages, partly because their names and their witness have been airbrushed from most of the media. I well remember Jeremy Paxman bellowing at Halliday on Newsnight shortly after his resignation: "So are you an apologist for Saddam Hussein?" That helped set the tone for the travesty of journalism that now daily, almost gleefully, treats criminal war as sport. In a leaked e-mail Roger Mosey, the head of BBC Television News, described the BBC's war coverage as "extraordinary - it almost feels like World Cup football when you go from Um Qasr to another theatre of war somewhere else and you're switching between battles". He is talking about murder. That is what the Americans do, and no one will say so, even when they are murdering journalists. They bring to this one-sided attack on a weak and mostly defenceless people the same racist, homicidal intent I witnessed in Vietnam, where they had a whole programme of murder called Operation Phoenix. This runs through all their foreign wars, as it does through their own divided society. Take your pick of the current onslaught. Last weekend, a column of their tanks swept heroically into Baghdad and out again. They murdered people along the way. They blew off the limbs of women and the scalps of children. Hear their voices on the unedited and unbroadcast videotape: "We shot the shit out of it." Their victims overwhelm the morgues and hospitals - hospitals already denuded of drugs and painkillers by America's deliberate withholding of $5.4bn in humanitarian goods, approved by the Security Council and paid for by Iraq. The screams of children undergoing amputation with minimal anaesthetic qualify as the BBC man's "sound of freedom". Heller would appreciate the sideshows. Take the British helicopter pilot who came to blows with an American who had almost shot him down. "Don't you know the Iraqis don't have a fucking air force?" he shouted. Did this pilot reflect on the truth he had uttered, on the whole craven enterprise against a stricken third world country and his own part in this crime? I doubt it. The British have been the most skilled at delusion and lying. By any standard, the Iraqi resistance to the high-tech Anglo-American machine was heroic. With ancient tanks and mortars, small arms and desperate ambushes, they panicked the Americans and reduced the British military class to one of its specialities - mendacious condescension. The Iraqis who fight are "terrorists", "hoodlums", "pockets of Ba'ath Party loyalists", "kamikaze" and "feds" (fedayeen). They are not real people: cultured and cultivated people. They are Arabs. This vocabulary of dishonour has been faithfully parroted by those enjoying it all from the broadcasting box. "What do you make of Basra?" asked the Today programme's presenter of a former general embedded in the studio. "It's hugely encouraging, isn't it?" he replied. Their mutual excitement, like their plummy voices, are their bond. On the same day, in a Guardian letter, Tim Llewellyn, a former BBC Middle East correspondent, pointed us to evidence of this "hugely encouraging" truth - fleeting pictures on Sky News of British soldiers smashing their way into a family home in Basra, pointing their guns at a woman and manhandling, hooding and manacling young men, one of whom was shown quivering with terror. "Is Britain 'liberating' Basra by taking political prisoners and, if so, based on what sort of intelligence, given Britain's long unfamiliarity with this territory and its inhabitants . . . The least this ugly display will do is remind Arabs and Muslims everywhere of our Anglo-Saxon double standards - we can show your prisoners in . . . degrading positions, but don't you dare show ours.". Roger Mosey says the suffering of Um Qasr is "like World Cup football". There are 40,000 people in Um Qasr; desperate refugees are streaming in and the hospitals are overflowing. All this misery is due entirely to the "coalition" invasion and the British siege, which forced the United Nations to withdraw its humanitarian aid staff. Cafod, the Catholic relief agency, which has sent a team to Um Qasr, says the standard humanitarian quota for water in emergency situations is 20 litres per person per day. Cafod reports hospitals entirely without water and people drinking from contaminated wells. According to the World Health Organisation, 1.5 million people across southern Iraq are without water, and epidemics are inevitable. And what are "our boys" doing to alleviate this, apart from staging childish, theatrical occupations of presidential palaces, having fired shoulder-held missiles into a civilian city and dropped cluster bombs? A British colonel laments to his "embedded" flock that "it is difficult to deliver aid in an area that is still an active battle zone". The logic of his own words mocks him. If Iraq was not a battle zone, if the British and the Americans were not defying international law, there would be no difficulty in delivering aid. There is something especially disgusting about the lurid propaganda coming from these PR-trained British officers, who have not a clue about Iraq and its people. They describe the liberation they are bringing from "the world's worst tyranny", as if anything, including death by cluster bomb or dysentery, is better than "life under Saddam". The inconvenient truth is that, according to Unicef, the Ba'athists built the most modern health service in the Middle East. No one disputes the grim, totalitarian nature of the regime; but Saddam Hussein was careful to use the oil wealth to create a modern secular society and a large and prosperous middle class. Iraq was the only Arab country with a 90 per cent clean water supply and with free education. All this was smashed by the Anglo-American embargo. When the embargo was imposed in 1990, the Iraqi civil service organised a food distribution system that the UN's Food and Agriculture Organisation described as "a model of efficiency . . . undoubtedly saving Iraq from famine". That, too, was smashed when the invasion was launched. Why are the British yet to explain why their troops have to put on protective suits to recover dead and wounded in vehicles hit by American "friendly fire"? The reason is that the Americans are using solid uranium coated on missiles and tank shells. When I was in southern Iraq, doctors estimated a sevenfold increase in cancers in areas where depleted uranium was used by the Americans and British in the 19