From owner-vortex-l Wed May 24 19:07:49 1995 Return-Path: Received: by mail.eskimo.com (5.65c/1.35) id AA18812; Wed, 24 May 1995 19:07:46 -0700 Received: from matrix.eden.com by mail.eskimo.com (5.65c/1.35) id AA18783; Wed, 24 May 1995 19:07:36 -0700 Received: from net-1-150.eden.com (net-1-150.eden.com [199.171.21.150]) by matrix.eden.com (8.6.12.1/8.6.5) with SMTP id VAA15826 for ; Wed, 24 May 1995 21:07:29 -0500 Date: Wed, 24 May 1995 21:07:29 -0500 Message-Id: <199505250207.VAA15826@matrix.eden.com> X-Sender: little@eden.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com From: little@eden.com (Scott Little) Subject: homopolar generators X-Mailer: Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: A Hi Reed, Scott Little here. I have spent some time considering homopolar generators. I have studied Faraday's paradox (the one he reportedly resolved himself some 20 years after first confronting it) and even performed the famous experiment ("cemented" magnet vs stationary magnet) and, at present, I don't feel that there is anything "unusual" or "magic" about these devices...of course, I'm always on the lookout :-) They're damn peculiar, however, and require a bunch of clear-headed thinking not to get confused over...which is why, I believe, that many investigators have thought them to be "magic". From owner-vortex-l Thu May 25 07:46:02 1995 Return-Path: Received: by mail.eskimo.com (5.65c/1.35) id AA02688; Thu, 25 May 1995 07:45:54 -0700 Received: from eskimo.com by mail.eskimo.com (5.65c/1.35) id AA02668; Thu, 25 May 1995 07:45:46 -0700 Received: by eskimo.com (5.65c/1.35) id AA02157; Thu, 25 May 1995 07:45:44 -0700 Date: Thu, 25 May 1995 07:45:43 -0700 (PDT) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Subject: Re: homopolar generators In-Reply-To: <199505250551.AAA02985@matrix.eden.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Thu, 25 May 1995, Scott Little wrote: > >On another note: I noticed a general rule with homopolar motors and > >generators: A magnet makes the radial current in the disk flow in a > >spiral pattern, which drags the disk along, > > Bill, I'm not sure I understand this spiral current business. Are you > suggesting that this is WHY the disk rotates? Surely the primary impetus > for rotation comes simply from purely radial current "crossed into" the > axial B, which results in tangential force. Am I missing something? But doesn't it result in a tangential force on the mobile *carriers*? I can see why a b-field makes the radial electron flow become a spiral electron flow. But why should it drag the metal along? Now that you have me thinking, I guess the same can be said of the motor principle: a current in a wire in a b-field will be deflected, and will drag the wire along with it, rather than just causing a Hall effect charge separation along the sides of the wire. However, current in a wire is in a closed loop, and it is energetically favorable for the loop to reorient itself in the b-field, hence the force felt by each segment of the loop. But I can't see how this applies to the disk. How can the turning of the disk represent a move to a lower energy state? And besides, it doesn't represent a lower state, since it never changes energy. Maybe its actually the MOTION of the disk that is the lower energy state, rather than any particular POSITION, and so the disk wants to be continuously accelerating whenever current exists within? .....................uuuu / oo \ uuuu........,............................. William Beaty voice:206-762-3818 bbs:206-789-0775 cserv:71241,3623 EE/Programmer/Science exhibit designer http://amasci.com/ Seattle, WA 98117 billbeskimo.com SCIENCE HOBBYIST web page From owner-vortex-l Thu May 25 08:02:32 1995 Return-Path: Received: by mail.eskimo.com (5.65c/1.35) id AA05014; Thu, 25 May 1995 08:02:29 -0700 Received: from eskimo.com by mail.eskimo.com (5.65c/1.35) id AA04996; Thu, 25 May 1995 08:02:22 -0700 Received: by eskimo.com (5.65c/1.35) id AA03309; Thu, 25 May 1995 08:02:18 -0700 Date: Thu, 25 May 1995 08:02:18 -0700 (PDT) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Subject: Re: homopolar generators In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Thu, 25 May 1995, William Beaty wrote: > But I can't see how this applies to the disk. How can the > turning of the disk represent a move to a lower energy state? And > besides, it doesn't represent a lower state, since it never changes > energy. Maybe its actually the MOTION of the disk that is the lower > energy state, rather than any particular POSITION, and so the disk wants > to be continuously accelerating whenever current exists within? By the way, I'm visualizing a radially symmetric machine with continuous liquid metal contacts on the entire edge, and disk/cylinder geometry for the external circuit rather than wires. The usual "textbook" variety has a contact brush only at one point on the edge, and charges flow in the disk only between the disk center and this brush. Forces MAY be applied to the external circuit wires relative to the disk in the "textbook" version, but this isnt true of the radially symmetric version, yet it still turns. I think. At least it is SAID to turn. Things like this you almost have to try yourself, because the books say many incorrect things about these machines. .....................uuuu / oo \ uuuu........,............................. William Beaty voice:206-762-3818 bbs:206-789-0775 cserv:71241,3623 EE/Programmer/Science exhibit designer http://amasci.com/ Seattle, WA 98117 billbeskimo.com SCIENCE HOBBYIST web page From owner-vortex-l Thu May 25 19:28:57 1995 Return-Path: Received: by mail.eskimo.com (5.65c/1.35) id AA25239; Thu, 25 May 1995 19:28:53 -0700 Received: from eskimo.com by mail.eskimo.com (5.65c/1.35) id AA25221; Thu, 25 May 1995 19:28:46 -0700 Received: by eskimo.com (5.65c/1.35) id AA08535; Thu, 25 May 1995 19:28:45 -0700 Date: Thu, 25 May 1995 19:28:44 -0700 (PDT) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Subject: Re: homopolar generators In-Reply-To: <199505252052.PAA00271@matrix.eden.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Thu, 25 May 1995, Scott Little wrote: > I must say, your energy approach is confusing me. You're right, in order > for it to exert a force to move, it must be moving toward lower energies (by > definition)....but the whole thing is perfectly symmertrical, nothing is > moving in or out of the magnetic field!? Damn, I thought I had this all > figured out. Ha! I'm still wondering how an electron beam can be deflected by a magnetic field, since by what measurement does empty space full of uniform b-field have position? Every bit of the field must have position relative to the electrons, yet the field is smooth, so how can it have features which can be compared to the electron position, and velocity be detected thereby? Don't tell me that field lines are real after all! With the homopolar motor, I was supposing that the back-emf of a rotating disk, in combination with the fields around it, might represent a lower energy state, and so the disk would start moving, but then a HIGHER speed would represent a lower energy state for it, and so the disk would attain a particular value of increasing RPMs, rather than behaving like a coil and attaining a particular position. But I haven't thought about this in depth, so the idea might be off the wall. .....................uuuu / oo \ uuuu........,............................. William Beaty voice:206-762-3818 bbs:206-789-0775 cserv:71241,3623 EE/Programmer/Science exhibit designer http://amasci.com/ Seattle, WA 98117 billbeskimo.com SCIENCE HOBBYIST web page From owner-vortex-l Wed May 3 18:31:00 1995 Return-Path: Received: by mail.eskimo.com (5.65c/1.35) id AA05807; Wed, 3 May 1995 18:30:56 -0700 Received: from big.aa.net by mail.eskimo.com (5.65c/1.35) id AA05779; Wed, 3 May 1995 18:30:49 -0700 Received: (from knuke@localhost) by big.aa.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) id SAA25855; Wed, 3 May 1995 18:30:51 -0700 Date: Wed, 3 May 1995 18:30:50 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Huffman To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Subject: Re: Direction, Focus, Purpose In-Reply-To: <199505032238.RAA24244@matrix.eden.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Wed, 3 May 1995, Scott Little wrote: > I'm still here, Mike (or do you go by Knuke?)... Knuke is a knickname that I picked up in Germany many years ago. One of these days I'll get around to explaining how I got it, but I use it now as a cyber-kname:-) > > I'm a little more open to other energy technologies than you are but I guess > I'd like to vote against metaphysics...hey, I'm an engineer! > I'm very open to all energy technologies. In fact I love them! I just get the feeling that now is a very critical time for this one, and the cold fusion community in general for reasons of funding. Acceptance of a technology by the mainstream manufacturing community is essential for the commercialization of a product. Commercialization of a product is what is going to be necessary to further fund research. Cavitation heaters are right on the verge of acceptance by the mainstream manufacturing community for several good reasons. First, they are relatively easy to understand because they rely on little more than Newtonian physics. Secondly, they would be very easy to mass produce compared to any CF device or even a "present art" device. Third, they don't pollute, which makes them an environmentally attractive alternative to the "present art". Fourth, HVAC people won't have to take courses on QM to install these things in peoples' basements. Fifth, almost anybody that knows how to spin a wrench should be able to maintain their own heater themselves after it is installed. > > The second reason is that I am presently trying to convince ENECO that > >that 1) my patent is worth buying, Of course, I'm not doing this just for fun. I have an agenda. I do hope to make money on this, but not a lot. I'm selling a 50% share of the ownership for $50K, which is probably less than the inventor of the cabbage patch doll recieved. Part of that money will pay my debts, and the rest will go toward buying the equipment necessary to continue working on this for a year. > Rumor has it that ENECO has a Potopov device. Has anyone heard whether they > have gotten it to work as advertised (i.e. 4 kW in...12 kW out)? The last I heard from Fred on that was they were bench testing a Russian device that had no moving parts. This was a couple of months ago I think. Jed mentioned in one of his posts that efforts were underway to get a Potopov device to the States for analysis, but didn't say who was doing the getting. Griggs actually called me, and told me that he had spoken with Sapogin about the Potopov device. He said that it used a rotor that was slightly occulted or out of round. The "no moving parts" machine is probably something like an eductor or a venturi tube. Bill and I talked about this over the phone, and I also saw some discussion about a device by a Victor Schauberger that sounded vaguely similar. I haven't seen either one so I can't really comment except that I would like to know more. It seems that if the Potopov device is actually an out of round rotor, that it would be getting some venturi type action within a close fitting case. My machine would get a similar reaction simply by offsetting the middle housing piece or by adding irregularities to the middle housing piece. Jed, if there is anything that you could tell us at all about the Potopov device, we sure would be interested in reading it. -Knuke From owner-vortex-l Wed May 31 10:53:38 1995 Return-Path: Received: by mail.eskimo.com (5.65c/1.35) id AA00559; Wed, 31 May 1995 10:46:51 -0700 Received: from big.aa.net by mail.eskimo.com (5.65c/1.35) id AA29950; Wed, 31 May 1995 10:44:00 -0700 Received: from d114.aa.net (d114.aa.net [204.157.220.114]) by big.aa.net (8.6.11/8.6.9) with SMTP id KAA10534 for ; Wed, 31 May 1995 10:43:56 -0700 Date: Wed, 31 May 1995 10:43:56 -0700 X-Intended-For: Message-Id: <199505311743.KAA10534@big.aa.net> X-Sender: knuke@aa.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com From: knuke@aa.net (Michael T. Huffman) Subject: Re: Huffman device status Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >Hey Knuke: > >Are you getting any more data off your device or are you just sitting around >your kitchen in a radiation suit? :) > >Scott > To All, This has been a very busy week for me, which is why I haven't posted for a while. I had to ship the device last Wed., and this radiation business really got in the way. The last test that I did was with a layer of epoxy around the inside of the middle housing piece. I put this in to reduce the gap by .01" all the way around. Bill saw the housing piece before I ground it into tolerance, so he might be able to describe it better. The results of the tests were positive, indicating that a smaller gap was beneficial, but the epoxy won't bind at temps exceeding 250F. When I ran the device in pure steam mode, the epoxy came away from the housing and was disintegrated by the rotor. I tried this three times, and it got destroyed each time so the only way of tightening the gap is to either find a better epoxy or cut a new housing piece. I ended up just stripping out the remaining epoxy and shipping the device with the .03" gap. ENECO got the thing Fri., and they were setting it up yesterday. I should know by Friday what their initial findings are, and I report back. I've also been making some changes in the way I'm handling the Internet, so I've been busy setting that up. I'll have more to report later. -Knuke From owner-vortex-l Wed May 31 14:02:37 1995 Return-Path: Received: by mail.eskimo.com (5.65c/1.35) id AA01211; Wed, 31 May 1995 14:02:23 -0700 Received: from eskimo.com by mail.eskimo.com (5.65c/1.35) id AA00950; Wed, 31 May 1995 14:00:59 -0700 Received: by eskimo.com (5.65c/1.35) id AA01054; Wed, 31 May 1995 14:00:50 -0700 Date: Wed, 31 May 1995 14:00:49 -0700 (PDT) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Subject: Re: New Developments in Homopolar Generators In-Reply-To: <199505311644.MAA23727@ios.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: There are some Homopolar files in my WWW pages. You can go directly to them at http://amasci.com/freenrg/fnrg.html Look down the list for "N-machine.' Do you have WWW access? .....................uuuu / oo \ uuuu........,............................. William Beaty voice:206-762-3818 bbs:206-789-0775 cserv:71241,3623 EE/Programmer/Science exhibit designer http://amasci.com/ Seattle, WA 98117 billbeskimo.com SCIENCE HOBBYIST web page From owner-vortex-l Wed May 31 14:38:34 1995 Return-Path: Received: by mail.eskimo.com (5.65c/1.35) id AA08299; Wed, 31 May 1995 14:38:27 -0700 Received: from 204.122.16.4 by mail.eskimo.com (5.65c/1.35) id AA08234; Wed, 31 May 1995 14:38:11 -0700 Message-Id: <199505312138.AA08234@mail.eskimo.com> X-Sender: ghawk@mail.eskimo.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 31 May 1995 14:42:50 -0700 To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com From: ghawk@eskimo.com (Gary Hawkins) Subject: Re: Reed's Homopolar Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >Reed, you said: > >>inventor >>has kept a very low profile and has had very little written about him in the >>publications such as New Energy News and Space Energy Journal (he wanted it >>that way -- don't attract attention until you have something that works) > > >I like him already. > >We (H.E. Puthoff & I) at EarthTech have a standing offer that we would like >to personally extend to you. If you will loan us one of your devices for >testing, we will perform an accurate power/energy balance measurement on it, >write a publication-quality scientific report on our results, and return the >device to you. You get the report (and, of course, the device back) free of >charge, no strings attached. > >We make this offer because we are interested in observing genuine over-unity >devices in order to further our understanding of the zero-point field, the >prime candidate for the source of extraordinary energy. > > > > > >Scott Little >EarthTech International, Inc. 4030 Braker Lane West Austin TX 78759 USA >512-346-3848 (voice) 512-346-3017 (FAX) little@eden.com (email) > > > > It should not be shipped anywhere. That provides the ability for anyone to interupt it in transit. You folks could go to where it is to provide some preliminary test results. If someone stole it from Mr. Little's location, it would be a tragic can of worms for everyone concerned, and years of work would be down the drain to have to start all over building it. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Horizon Technology -- Tomorrow's Technology Today http://www.eskimo.com/~ghawk From reedh@styx.ios.com Thu Jun 1 09:20:24 1995 Return-Path: Received: from ios.com by mail.eskimo.com (5.65c/1.35) id AA02001; Thu, 1 Jun 1995 09:20:19 -0700 Received: from 198.4.70.83 ([198.4.70.83]) by ios.com (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id MAA22514 for ; Thu, 1 Jun 1995 12:20:07 -0400 Date: Thu, 1 Jun 1995 12:20:07 -0400 Message-Id: <199506011620.MAA22514@ios.com> From: reedh@styx.ios.com Subject: Re: New Developments in Homopolar Generators To: billbeskimo.com X-Mailer: AIR Mail 3.X (SPRY, Inc.) Status: RO X-Status: Thanks for the WWW page. I do have WWW access and I'll try it out today. Reed From owner-vortex-l Tue May 30 20:07:36 1995 Return-Path: Received: by mail.eskimo.com (5.65c/1.35) id AA29098; Tue, 30 May 1995 20:07:31 -0700 Received: from matrix.eden.com by mail.eskimo.com (5.65c/1.35) id AA29048; Tue, 30 May 1995 20:07:19 -0700 Received: from net-1-136.eden.com (net-1-136.eden.com [199.171.21.136]) by matrix.eden.com (8.6.12.1/8.6.12) with SMTP id WAA16493 for ; Tue, 30 May 1995 22:07:13 -0500 Date: Tue, 30 May 1995 22:07:13 -0500 Message-Id: <199505310307.WAA16493@matrix.eden.com> X-Sender: little@eden.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com From: little@eden.com (Scott Little) Subject: Huffman device status X-Mailer: Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Hey Knuke: Are you getting any more data off your device or are you just sitting around your kitchen in a radiation suit? :) Scott From ghawk@eskimo.com Thu Jun 1 23:13:03 1995 Return-Path: Received: from 204.122.16.4 by mail.eskimo.com (5.65c/1.35) id AA22691; Thu, 1 Jun 1995 23:12:58 -0700 Message-Id: <199506020612.AA22691@mail.eskimo.com> X-Sender: ghawk@mail.eskimo.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 01 Jun 1995 23:17:37 -0700 To: William Beaty From: ghawk@eskimo.com (Gary Hawkins) Subject: Re: Inventors potluck? Status: RO X-Status: >I'm still interested. Is it tomorrow? When and where? > > >.....................uuuu / oo \ uuuu........,............................. >William Beaty voice:206-762-3818 bbs:206-789-0775 cserv:71241,3623 >EE/Programmer/Science exhibit designer http://amasci.com/ >Seattle, WA 98117 billbeskimo.com SCIENCE HOBBYIST web page > > > > Hmm, call Don, 527-6221, I really don't know it they are sticking to their schedule. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Horizon Technology -- Tomorrow's Technology Today http://www.eskimo.com/~ghawk From owner-vortex-l Fri Jun 2 13:40:40 1995 Return-Path: Received: by eskimo.com (5.65c/1.35) id AA14060; Fri, 2 Jun 1995 13:40:36 -0700 Received: by eskimo.com (5.65c/1.35) id AA14014; Fri, 2 Jun 1995 13:40:24 -0700 Date: Fri, 2 Jun 1995 13:40:23 -0700 (PDT) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Entropy violations? Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Scott, have you ever given any though to self-organizing patterns with regard to reversal of entropy? It just occurred to me that, even though interactions at the micro-scale would conserve energy, the spontaneous growth of patterns in "emergent phenomena" physics might involve entropy reversal. If there's some situation analogous to cellular automata or chaotic oscillators and single molecules are the active elements, then a self-organizing pattern would be an entropy reversal, and extraction of work from the pattern on the whole would cause cooling and useful work. Same as Maxwell's demon, a harnessing of the micro-level thermal vibrations to do macro-level work. But a violation of thermo laws. I think turbulence and vortices involve spontaneous organization. Maybe the legends about self-propelling vortices have something to do with Chaos as Maxwell-Demon? .....................uuuu / oo \ uuuu........,............................. William Beaty voice:206-762-3818 bbs:206-789-0775 cserv:71241,3623 EE/Programmer/Science exhibit designer http://amasci.com/ Seattle, WA 98117 billbeskimo.com SCIENCE HOBBYIST web page From owner-vortex-l Fri Jun 2 17:14:55 1995 Return-Path: Received: by mail.eskimo.com (5.65c/1.35) id AA13511; Fri, 2 Jun 1995 17:14:52 -0700 Received: from matrix.eden.com by mail.eskimo.com (5.65c/1.35) id AA13486; Fri, 2 Jun 1995 17:14:42 -0700 Received: from net-1-164.eden.com (net-1-217.eden.com [199.171.21.217]) by matrix.eden.com (8.6.12.1/8.6.12) with SMTP id TAA06903 for ; Fri, 2 Jun 1995 19:14:37 -0500 Date: Fri, 2 Jun 1995 19:14:37 -0500 Message-Id: <199506030014.TAA06903@matrix.eden.com> X-Sender: little@eden.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com From: little@eden.com (Scott Little) Subject: Re: Entropy violations? X-Mailer: Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: > >Scott, have you ever given any though to self-organizing patterns with >regard to reversal of entropy? Actually, I'm pretty sure you're correct about this. There are other situations in which it is apparent that energy is being added from "outside" to local microscopic frames. What we need is some way to "cohere" these effects and point a lot of them in one useful direction.... any ideas? Scott Little EarthTech International, Inc. 4030 Braker Lane West Austin TX 78759 USA 512-346-3848 (voice) 512-346-3017 (FAX) little@eden.com (email) From owner-vortex-l Fri Jun 2 20:37:16 1995 Return-Path: Received: by mail.eskimo.com (5.65c/1.35) id AA08770; Fri, 2 Jun 1995 20:37:09 -0700 Received: from 204.122.16.4 by mail.eskimo.com (5.65c/1.35) id AA08734; Fri, 2 Jun 1995 20:36:57 -0700 Message-Id: <199506030336.AA08734@mail.eskimo.com> X-Sender: ghawk@mail.eskimo.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 02 Jun 1995 20:41:37 -0700 To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com From: ghawk@eskimo.com (Gary Hawkins) Subject: Re: Inventor's potluck Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >> >>Gary, maybe we should try to get Mike H. out to the Inventor's potluck >>(which I've not heard back from yet) since Mike is very interested in >>carving plastic parts with CAM devices. >> >If it would mean that I have to cook anything besides water, it might not be >a good idea:-) You could just bring something from the store like I do, or something to drink. >What is the Inventor's Potluck? A bunch of inventors reconoitering, usually about 15 people, everything from doctors to grandmas. She recently took a trip overseas on the money she's making from her first invention, a mosquito net that holds a shape over one's head, and easily folds away, even though it has a frame to it. It's being sold at REI for one, and I was there once as she asked around for ideas and struggled over whether she would ever get anywhere with it. Pretty neat to watch that happen for her. Many of this group have recent successes, and others are working on it. >Is it local? That's relative, but to you, yes. >Does it involve food? Hopefully that's what it has been all of this time cause I've been eating it. >I'm interested. Bill has the details. --Gary ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Horizon Technology -- Tomorrow's Technology Today http://www.eskimo.com/~ghawk From owner-vortex-l Fri Jun 2 22:20:11 1995 Return-Path: Received: by mail.eskimo.com (5.65c/1.35) id AA21028; Fri, 2 Jun 1995 22:20:05 -0700 Received: from matrix.eden.com by mail.eskimo.com (5.65c/1.35) id AA21002; Fri, 2 Jun 1995 22:19:49 -0700 Received: from net-1-179.eden.com (net-1-179.eden.com [199.171.21.179]) by matrix.eden.com (8.6.12.1/8.6.12) with SMTP id AAA01073 for ; Sat, 3 Jun 1995 00:19:44 -0500 Date: Sat, 3 Jun 1995 00:19:44 -0500 Message-Id: <199506030519.AAA01073@matrix.eden.com> X-Sender: little@eden.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com From: little@eden.com (Scott Little) Subject: Entropy reductions...energy gains X-Mailer: Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: A Bill, I guess I answered a little too quickly. Are you talking about entropy reducing situations, such as crystallization? Such processes usually do proceed toward lower energy states...that is the free atoms have more energy than the crystallized atoms. Thus energy has to be evolved for the change to take place....right? I was talking about something different. For example, the finite line width of atomic spectra. Take a given atom with a known emission/absorbtion line. Arrange to shine photons at this atom whose energy is slightly below the nominal energy required to excite the emission line. Under these conditions the excitation efficiency is NOT ZERO! A certain percentage of the incident photons arrive in phase with a zero-point field photon of the correct energy and, lo and behold, the excitation occurs. When said atom de-excites, the energy of the emitted photon is the full nominal value! Voila!..a genuine instance of extraction of energy from the zero-point field. Now here's your assignment, Bill: Build a practical energy converter that operates on this principle and draws enough power from the zero-point field to run itself and provide 1 watt of surplus power, thus satisfying Puthoff's "1 watt challenge". If you need any diodes or resistors, let me know :) From owner-vortex-l Sat Jun 3 00:02:31 1995 Return-Path: Received: by mail.eskimo.com (5.65c/1.35) id AA00634; Sat, 3 Jun 1995 00:02:26 -0700 Received: from eskimo.com by mail.eskimo.com (5.65c/1.35) id AA00617; Sat, 3 Jun 1995 00:02:19 -0700 Received: by eskimo.com (5.65c/1.35) id AA16671; Sat, 3 Jun 1995 00:02:17 -0700 Date: Sat, 3 Jun 1995 00:02:16 -0700 (PDT) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Subject: Re: Entropy reductions...energy gains In-Reply-To: <199506030519.AAA01073@matrix.eden.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: On Sat, 3 Jun 1995, Scott Little wrote: > Bill, I guess I answered a little too quickly. Are you talking about > entropy reducing situations, such as crystallization? Nope. I was wondering about Self Organizing Systems, and Emergent Properties, which come under Complexity theory and Chaotic Dynamics, I think. Things like the ZB chemical oscillator, which organizes itself into colored spiral patterns in the petri dish. Or Fractal patterns that arise in many systems. In Self Organization, complex patterns emerge from nothing, caused (if 'caused' is the word) by interactions between many small parts. Without the proper theory, you'd expect random white-noise patterns to exist, but instead the microscopic elements somehow agree among themselves to become organized into a macroscopic form. I'd expect the microscopic interactions to conserve energy. But does the spontaneous emergence of complexity ever represent a decrease in energy? I'm not that familiar with this field, and I was wondering if the small parts in any of these 'emergent' patterns were thermal vibrations. If so, the large scale pattern would be a cohering of thermal vibrations, and the growth of the pattern would be a genuine entropy reversal. The microscopic parts would be cooled as the macroscopic pattern was created, and the macroscopic pattern might be something like sound, and work could be extracted. Or maybe this would take the form of some nonlinear effect which would allow thermal vibrations to directly power IR flourescence, allowing the construction of a Laser powered by reverse entropy. But in describing this, I can see that the existance of such an effect would be as earthshaking as the discovery of a real Maxwell's Demon effect, and we'd have heard about it. But since everyone assumes energy conservation and thermo laws are correct, I wonder if something like this could have been overlooked. And if it involved the spontaneous organization of ZPE, it probably would be discoverable only by accident or lucky observation. I have the impression that it's hard to predict whether or not a self-organizing pattern will arise, and they are usually explained after the fact rather than predicted in advance. Are you familiar with Conway's Life, or other Cellular Automata computer programs? If something similar existed in nature at the atomic level, it would represent an entropy reversal as microscopic motion was cooled and used to drive macroscopic patterns. > Now here's your > assignment, Bill: Build a practical energy converter that operates on this > principle and draws enough power from the zero-point field to run itself and > provide 1 watt of surplus power, thus satisfying Puthoff's "1 watt > challenge". If you need any diodes or resistors, let me know :) If I use photons way up in the cosmic ray gammas, so each one has the mass-energy of a small rabbit dropping, and use oppositely charged singularities in close orbit instead of atoms, as the photons bounce around in the system they strike mirrors connected to little rachet arms which would drive wooden gears. It would be hard to keep running, because every once in a while the photon would tunnel through a mirror and you'd have to go chase it down and put it back. .....................uuuu / oo \ uuuu........,............................. William Beaty voice:206-762-3818 bbs:206-789-0775 cserv:71241,3623 EE/Programmer/Science exhibit designer http://amasci.com/ Seattle, WA 98117 billbeskimo.com SCIENCE HOBBYIST web page From owner-vortex-l Fri Jun 2 14:20:00 1995 Return-Path: Received: by mail.eskimo.com (5.65c/1.35) id AA11898; Fri, 2 Jun 1995 14:06:35 -0700 Received: from big.aa.net by mail.eskimo.com (5.65c/1.35) id AA10921; Fri, 2 Jun 1995 14:00:55 -0700 Received: from d114.aa.net (d114.aa.net [204.157.220.114]) by big.aa.net (8.6.11/8.6.9) with SMTP id OAA12208 for ; Fri, 2 Jun 1995 14:00:38 -0700 Date: Fri, 2 Jun 1995 14:00:38 -0700 X-Intended-For: Message-Id: <199506022100.OAA12208@big.aa.net> X-Sender: knuke@aa.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com From: knuke@aa.net (Michael T. Huffman) Subject: Re: Inventor's potluck Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: > >Gary, maybe we should try to get Mike H. out to the Inventor's potluck >(which I've not heard back from yet) since Mike is very interested in >carving plastic parts with CAM devices. > If it would mean that I have to cook anything besides water, it might not be a good idea:-) What is the Inventor's Potluck? Is it local? Does it involve food? I'm interested. BTW, I just wrote a rather lengthy letter to Mitch Schwartz regarding the latest developments on my machine. I've asked him if I can post the letter to this group so that I don't have to type it all out again. I also invited him to check out Vortex-l, so I expect that he will. -Knuke From owner-vortex-l Sat May 20 17:53:31 1995 Return-Path: Received: by eskimo.com (5.65c/1.35) id AA18358; Sat, 20 May 1995 17:52:28 -0700 Received: by eskimo.com (5.65c/1.35) id AA18345; Sat, 20 May 1995 17:52:21 -0700 Date: Sat, 20 May 1995 17:52:19 -0700 (PDT) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: s.p.f archive Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: I finally managed to make the sci.phys.fusion news archive work off of my web page. If you haven't seen this before, try it out. Type in your login name as a keyword, and it will (I think) give you every message you ever posted there. Immortality of a sort, and if CF proves to be sucessful, it will be a very interesting historical document. It's at http://amasci.com/weird.html, down in the Cold Fusion heading. .....................uuuu / oo \ uuuu........,............................. William Beaty voice:206-762-3818 bbs:206-789-0775 cserv:71241,3623 EE/Programmer/Science exhibit designer http://amasci.com/ Seattle, WA 98117 billbeskimo.com SCIENCE HOBBYIST web page From ghawk@eskimo.com Tue May 23 20:03:58 1995 Return-Path: Received: from 204.122.16.4 by mail.eskimo.com (5.65c/1.35) id AA18281; Tue, 23 May 1995 20:03:53 -0700 Message-Id: <199505240303.AA18281@mail.eskimo.com> X-Sender: ghawk@mail.eskimo.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 23 May 1995 20:08:19 -0700 To: William Beaty From: ghawk@eskimo.com (Gary Hawkins) Subject: Re: vortex-l Status: RO X-Status: >On Tue, 23 May 1995, Gary Hawkins wrote: > >> This is excellent. I told Reed Huish about the mailing list, because he is >> head of >> a company that is looking to invest in energy saving farout science >> projects. Also >> finally faxed the info about the company, to Michael H. This warm welcome from >> you, and where he can find more, couldn't have been better. >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > >I just moved some messages there. I killed lots, like things from Jed >about tracking down the Popatov device. Quite a bit I could put back... > >.....................uuuu / oo \ uuuu........,............................. >William Beaty voice:206-762-3818 bbs:206-789-0775 cserv:71241,3623 >EE/Programmer/Science exhibit designer http://amasci.com/ >Seattle, WA 98117 billbeskimo.com SCIENCE HOBBYIST web page > > > > Your call. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- HORIZON TECHNOLOGY -- Tomorrow's Technology Today http://www.eskimo.com/~ghawk From owner-vortex-l Wed May 24 15:12:23 1995 Return-Path: Received: by mail.eskimo.com (5.65c/1.35) id AA13451; Wed, 24 May 1995 15:12:18 -0700 Received: from ios.com by mail.eskimo.com (5.65c/1.35) id AA13345; Wed, 24 May 1995 15:11:37 -0700 Received: from 198.4.70.83 ([198.4.70.83]) by ios.com (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id SAA01610 for ; Wed, 24 May 1995 18:11:26 -0400 Date: Wed, 24 May 1995 18:11:26 -0400 Message-Id: <199505242211.SAA01610@ios.com> From: reedh@styx.ios.com Subject: Re: vortex-l To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com X-Mailer: AIR Mail 3.X (SPRY, Inc.) Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: A Thanks for the tip Bill. I see that you are a EE. Do you know anything about homopolar generators (n-machines)? If so, lets talk. Reed From billbeskimo.com Wed May 24 20:19:42 1995 Date: Wed, 24 May 1995 20:19:39 -0700 (PDT) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Subject: Re: homopolar generators In-Reply-To: <199505250207.VAA15826@matrix.eden.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Status: O X-Status: On Wed, 24 May 1995, Scott Little wrote: > Hi Reed, Scott Little here. > > I have spent some time considering homopolar generators. I have studied > Faraday's paradox (the one he reportedly resolved himself some 20 years > after first confronting it) and even performed the famous experiment > ("cemented" magnet vs stationary magnet) and, at present, I don't feel that > there is anything "unusual" or "magic" about these devices...of course, I'm > always on the lookout :-) They're damn peculiar, however, and require a > bunch of clear-headed thinking not to get confused over...which is why, I > believe, that many investigators have thought them to be "magic". The stationary/rotating magnet effect is pretty much a nonissue. The drive and reaction forces are expressed relative to the static parts of the circuit, and the magnet never experiences forces, whether it rotates or not. Yet people keep encountering these devices anew and getting all excited... But there still is some 'magic' of the physics kind involved. Why should an electric current, when deflected, take a conductor along with it instead of just changing paths within the conductor? I don't think this case is covered under Maxwell's eqn's. It involves an interaction between moving charges and the matrix in which they move. The problem isn't very straightforward, at least I don't THINK so, because in closed circuits there is no nonmagnetic reaction force applied in parallel with a single conductor when a pulse of current is applied. Why doesn't a ring of wire get jerked ahead when the current suddenly starts and stops flowing? Because the current doesn't drag the metal matrix along with it? But then, when a current flowing radially in a disk is forced to flow in a spiral (by the application of the axial field), I wouldn't expect the current to drag the metal and cause it to rotate. Yet it does. I'm confused. This is not helped by the usual spoked-wagon-wheel model of these devices. I WOULD expect a spoked wheel to be propelled into rotation by magnetic effects. But a contiguous disk I would expect to remain still, even if the current was flowing in a spiral. On another note: I noticed a general rule with homopolar motors and generators: A magnet makes the radial current in the disk flow in a spiral pattern, which drags the disk along, and if curved slots are cut in the disk to FORCE a spiral flow, the generator becomes self-regenerative and the axial-field permanent magnet may be removed. The classic regenerative homopolar machine has a disk with spiral slots and no field- magnets. I was thinking about cylindrical homopolar designs and realized that the same rule can be applied: trace the path that the current takes under the influence of the magnetic field, cut slots in the rotor to force this flow pattern, and then remove the magnet. The result is a cylinder with a 'chevron' pattern of slots, and the cylinder should rotate when current is applied to the edges, even if there is no applied magnetic field at all. The current in the chevron creates both the "permanent magnet" field, and the field in the metal rotor. Will this really work? I want to try this out someday, when I figure out how to be several people! .....................uuuu / oo \ uuuu........,............................. William Beaty voice:206-762-3818 bbs:206-789-0775 cserv:71241,3623 EE/Programmer/Science exhibit designer http://amasci.com/ Seattle, WA 98117 billbeskimo.com SCIENCE HOBBYIST web page From billbeskimo.com Thu May 25 07:45:45 1995 Date: Thu, 25 May 1995 07:45:43 -0700 (PDT) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Subject: Re: homopolar generators In-Reply-To: <199505250551.AAA02985@matrix.eden.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Status: O X-Status: On Thu, 25 May 1995, Scott Little wrote: > >On another note: I noticed a general rule with homopolar motors and > >generators: A magnet makes the radial current in the disk flow in a > >spiral pattern, which drags the disk along, > > Bill, I'm not sure I understand this spiral current business. Are you > suggesting that this is WHY the disk rotates? Surely the primary impetus > for rotation comes simply from purely radial current "crossed into" the > axial B, which results in tangential force. Am I missing something? But doesn't it result in a tangential force on the mobile *carriers*? I can see why a b-field makes the radial electron flow become a spiral electron flow. But why should it drag the metal along? Now that you have me thinking, I guess the same can be said of the motor principle: a current in a wire in a b-field will be deflected, and will drag the wire along with it, rather than just causing a Hall effect charge separation along the sides of the wire. However, current in a wire is in a closed loop, and it is energetically favorable for the loop to reorient itself in the b-field, hence the force felt by each segment of the loop. But I can't see how this applies to the disk. How can the turning of the disk represent a move to a lower energy state? And besides, it doesn't represent a lower state, since it never changes energy. Maybe its actually the MOTION of the disk that is the lower energy state, rather than any particular POSITION, and so the disk wants to be continuously accelerating whenever current exists within? .....................uuuu / oo \ uuuu........,............................. William Beaty voice:206-762-3818 bbs:206-789-0775 cserv:71241,3623 EE/Programmer/Science exhibit designer http://amasci.com/ Seattle, WA 98117 billbeskimo.com SCIENCE HOBBYIST web page From billbeskimo.com Thu May 25 08:02:19 1995 Date: Thu, 25 May 1995 08:02:18 -0700 (PDT) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Subject: Re: homopolar generators In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Status: O X-Status: On Thu, 25 May 1995, William Beaty wrote: > But I can't see how this applies to the disk. How can the > turning of the disk represent a move to a lower energy state? And > besides, it doesn't represent a lower state, since it never changes > energy. Maybe its actually the MOTION of the disk that is the lower > energy state, rather than any particular POSITION, and so the disk wants > to be continuously accelerating whenever current exists within? By the way, I'm visualizing a radially symmetric machine with continuous liquid metal contacts on the entire edge, and disk/cylinder geometry for the external circuit rather than wires. The usual "textbook" variety has a contact brush only at one point on the edge, and charges flow in the disk only between the disk center and this brush. Forces MAY be applied to the external circuit wires relative to the disk in the "textbook" version, but this isnt true of the radially symmetric version, yet it still turns. I think. At least it is SAID to turn. Things like this you almost have to try yourself, because the books say many incorrect things about these machines. .....................uuuu / oo \ uuuu........,............................. William Beaty voice:206-762-3818 bbs:206-789-0775 cserv:71241,3623 EE/Programmer/Science exhibit designer http://amasci.com/ Seattle, WA 98117 billbeskimo.com SCIENCE HOBBYIST web page From billbeskimo.com Thu May 25 19:28:46 1995 Date: Thu, 25 May 1995 19:28:44 -0700 (PDT) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Subject: Re: homopolar generators In-Reply-To: <199505252052.PAA00271@matrix.eden.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Status: O X-Status: On Thu, 25 May 1995, Scott Little wrote: > I must say, your energy approach is confusing me. You're right, in order > for it to exert a force to move, it must be moving toward lower energies (by > definition)....but the whole thing is perfectly symmertrical, nothing is > moving in or out of the magnetic field!? Damn, I thought I had this all > figured out. Ha! I'm still wondering how an electron beam can be deflected by a magnetic field, since by what measurement does empty space full of uniform b-field have position? Every bit of the field must have position relative to the electrons, yet the field is smooth, so how can it have features which can be compared to the electron position, and velocity be detected thereby? Don't tell me that field lines are real after all! With the homopolar motor, I was supposing that the back-emf of a rotating disk, in combination with the fields around it, might represent a lower energy state, and so the disk would start moving, but then a HIGHER speed would represent a lower energy state for it, and so the disk would attain a particular value of increasing RPMs, rather than behaving like a coil and attaining a particular position. But I haven't thought about this in depth, so the idea might be off the wall. .....................uuuu / oo \ uuuu........,............................. William Beaty voice:206-762-3818 bbs:206-789-0775 cserv:71241,3623 EE/Programmer/Science exhibit designer http://amasci.com/ Seattle, WA 98117 billbeskimo.com SCIENCE HOBBYIST web page From billbeskimo.com Wed May 31 14:00:51 1995 Date: Wed, 31 May 1995 14:00:49 -0700 (PDT) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Subject: Re: New Developments in Homopolar Generators In-Reply-To: <199505311644.MAA23727@ios.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Status: O X-Status: There are some Homopolar files in my WWW pages. You can go directly to them at http://amasci.com/freenrg/fnrg.html Look down the list for "N-machine.' Do you have WWW access? .....................uuuu / oo \ uuuu........,............................. William Beaty voice:206-762-3818 bbs:206-789-0775 cserv:71241,3623 EE/Programmer/Science exhibit designer http://amasci.com/ Seattle, WA 98117 billbeskimo.com SCIENCE HOBBYIST web page