From owner-vortex-l@eskimo.com Sat Feb 18 14:14:33 1995 Return-Path: Received: by eskimo.com (5.65c/1.35) id AA22360; Sat, 18 Feb 1995 14:14:32 -0800 Date: Sat, 18 Feb 1995 14:14:32 -0800 Message-Id: <199502182214.AA22360@eskimo.com> To: billbeskimo.com From: majordom@eskimo.com Subject: Welcome to vortex-l Reply-To: majordom@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: -- Welcome to the vortex-l mailing list! If you ever want to remove yourself from this mailing list, you can send mail to "majordom@Eskimo.Com" with the following command in the body of your email message: unsubscribe vortex-l billbeskimo.com Here's the general information for the list you've subscribed to, in case you don't already have it: #### No info available for vortex-l. Received: from big.aa.net by mail.eskimo.com (5.65c/1.35) id AA29372; Wed, 10 May 1995 14:03:57 -0700 Received: (from knuke@localhost) by big.aa.net (8.6.11/8.6.9) id OAA13781; Wed, 10 May 1995 14:04:07 -0700 Date: Wed, 10 May 1995 14:04:06 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Huffman To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Subject: Re: Sapogin's e-mail address In-Reply-To: <950510185228_72240.1256_EHB129-1@CompuServe.COM> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To All, Many thanks to Jed for the update on the Sapogin device. I know that when I was in Prague 18 months ago, the line to REGISTER for a phone was 3 blocks long. After that you could expect to wait 3-5 YEARS before it was installed. I have two friends living there now that are still waiting. The hottest enterprise going was the cellular phone industry. It cost a fortune even by Western standards, but you didn't have to wait for it. $2000 still sounds pretty cheap for a machine though, considering all of the red tape it will have to go through. I wouldn't put that figure in stone right now. That's five times cheaper than the cheapest Grigg's device. I ran my machine today for about 1 hour. Nearly the entire time in pure steam mode or thereabouts. It really blasts the steam. There is still a bit of a rub at that temp, but I tore it apart to see what the inside looked like, and I think I'll be able to run some measurements on it tomorrow. Roughly speaking the flow rates look to be around 50% higher, judging by the flowrotometer, so I'm expecting good results. With the center housing piece in the offset position, the gap at the top is about .005" right now, and at the bottom, about .06". My next move will be to fill in the bottom portion with layers of that high temp epoxy until the gap is more like .03 or less. I'll keep you posted. -Knuke From owner-vortex-l Thu May 11 18:58:30 1995 Return-Path: Received: by mail.eskimo.com (5.65c/1.35) id AA28712; Thu, 11 May 1995 18:58:28 -0700 Received: from big.aa.net by mail.eskimo.com (5.65c/1.35) id AA28676; Thu, 11 May 1995 18:58:20 -0700 Received: (from knuke@localhost) by big.aa.net (8.6.11/8.6.9) id SAA32027; Thu, 11 May 1995 18:58:23 -0700 Date: Thu, 11 May 1995 18:58:23 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Huffman To: Vortex-1 Subject: Test results Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: A To All, I just finished calculating the results of today's tests, and they are too good for me to believe (like 154%). There was still a rub at the steam mode, so I ran at a lower temperature. I want to get more tests in before I will let myself believe the results. I'll keep you posted. -Knuke From owner-vortex-l Fri May 12 06:24:02 1995 Return-Path: Received: by mail.eskimo.com (5.65c/1.35) id AA06836; Fri, 12 May 1995 06:23:59 -0700 Received: from matrix.eden.com by mail.eskimo.com (5.65c/1.35) id AA06817; Fri, 12 May 1995 06:23:54 -0700 Received: from net-1-185.eden.com (net-1-185.eden.com [199.171.21.185]) by matrix.eden.com (8.6.12.1/8.6.5) with SMTP id IAA18833 for ; Fri, 12 May 1995 08:23:50 -0500 Date: Fri, 12 May 1995 08:23:50 -0500 Message-Id: <199505121323.IAA18833@matrix.eden.com> X-Sender: little@eden.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com From: little@eden.com (Scott Little) Subject: Re: Test results X-Mailer: Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: >I want to get more tests in >before I will let myself believe the results. Good attitude, Mike. You are plunging into the harsh world of measurement errors and those damn things can be SNEAKY. Double-check EVERYTHING....twice! Scott Little EarthTech International, Inc. 4030 Braker Lane West Austin TX 78759 USA 512-346-3848 (voice) 512-346-3017 (FAX) little@eden.com (email) From owner-vortex-l Tue May 2 21:49:30 1995 Return-Path: Received: by mail.eskimo.com (5.65c/1.35) id AA18631; Tue, 2 May 1995 21:49:26 -0700 Received: from big.aa.net by mail.eskimo.com (5.65c/1.35) id AA18599; Tue, 2 May 1995 21:49:18 -0700 Received: (from knuke@localhost) by big.aa.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) id VAA09524; Tue, 2 May 1995 21:49:17 -0700 Date: Tue, 2 May 1995 21:49:16 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Huffman To: Vortex-1 Subject: News Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To All, I just finished running a couple of tests with the copper tubing. The results are better, but still not there. I used 33 feet of 1/8" OD soft copper. I needed about 45 feet, but 33 was all they had in stock, so I went ahead and took it. I just wrapped it around the case without soldering it. I did manage to get a pretty good tight wrap without the solder, so I don't think it's really necessary. I still haven't insulated the whole thing yet, but will do that tomorrow. As it stands, the device is running 94% efficient, measuring the thermal output over the electrical input. I'll keep you posted -Knuke From owner-vortex-l Wed May 17 10:07:59 1995 Return-Path: Received: by eskimo.com (5.65c/1.35) id AA02644; Wed, 17 May 1995 10:07:54 -0700 Received: by eskimo.com (5.65c/1.35) id AA02624; Wed, 17 May 1995 10:07:46 -0700 Date: Wed, 17 May 1995 10:07:44 -0700 (PDT) From: William Beaty To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Photo... Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: I finally put up a photo of Mike's device on my web page, under Weird Science, down in the CF stuff, under Huffman Device. This is the older device, not his current one. It's a bit blurry, but I couldn't get any closer with the instant camera. .....................uuuu / oo \ uuuu........,............................. William Beaty voice:206-762-3818 bbs:206-789-0775 cserv:71241,3623 EE/Programmer/Science exhibit designer http://amasci.com/ Seattle, WA 98117 billbeskimo.com SCIENCE HOBBYIST web page From owner-vortex-l Thu May 18 14:00:38 1995 Return-Path: Received: by mail.eskimo.com (5.65c/1.35) id AA14829; Thu, 18 May 1995 13:54:59 -0700 Received: from big.aa.net by mail.eskimo.com (5.65c/1.35) id AA14816; Thu, 18 May 1995 13:54:53 -0700 Received: (from knuke@localhost) by big.aa.net (8.6.11/8.6.9) id NAA19930; Thu, 18 May 1995 13:54:54 -0700 Date: Thu, 18 May 1995 13:54:54 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Huffman To: Vortex-1 Subject: Magnets and Radioactivity Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: A To All, There is a saying taped up in the Polar Bear wheelhouse that goes "In God we trust, everything else we check out". I decided to look into this radioactivity business, and I've found some interesting things. First I should explain that I tested the device with the motor off, so there was no possibility of RF interference or noise. Then I should explain that my Geiger counter is a pancake shaped Geiger-Mueller type tube which is considered to be very good. It will detect alpha, beta, and high energy beta or gamma rays. I should also say that 350 microroentgens is considered to be quite high. If you were to expose yourself to this much radiation for a year, it would be roughly equivilent to giving yourself 306 chest X-rays. Normal background radiation is 5-25 microroentgens per hour, so 350 is NOT a safe amount. I called the manufacturer of the Geiger counter, and he said that he remembered reading somewhere that some magnets were made with radioactive material. This led to three calls to different magnet distributers. After telling the receptionists that I had a question regarding radioactivity and magnets, only one of the engineers would talk to me. He told me that ceramic ferrite magnets were generally made with either Barium or Strontium-30. He said that the Barium magnets were deemed to be a serious health hazard, and that his company _preferred_ to buy only the Strontium variety. I tried looking up Strontium-30, but have had no luck. In fact, this 30 number doesn't even make sense if it has anything to do with atomic weight. I asked him for the number 3 times so I'm sure that's what he said. I don't want to take up a whole lot of time with this line of inquiry so I'm going to let it rest for now, but it's definitely worth checking out at one point or another. If any of you guys know anything about this or just want to keep a lookout for info on this, please keep the rest of us posted. -Knuke From owner-vortex-l Fri May 19 14:19:20 1995 Return-Path: Received: by mail.eskimo.com (5.65c/1.35) id AA02318; Fri, 19 May 1995 14:03:17 -0700 Received: from big.aa.net by mail.eskimo.com (5.65c/1.35) id AA02205; Fri, 19 May 1995 14:02:35 -0700 Received: (from knuke@localhost) by big.aa.net (8.6.11/8.6.9) id OAA16521; Fri, 19 May 1995 14:02:33 -0700 Date: Fri, 19 May 1995 14:02:33 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Huffman To: Vortex-1 Subject: RADS2 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To All, I just got off the phone with the manufacturer of my Geiger counter. He asked me what the color of the tiles was, and I told him yellow. He said that it was almost definitely uranium oxide, called "yellow cake", that had been used to color the glaze on the tiles. He recommended that I call my landlord immediately, and get that torn out of my kitchen. He also said that as the uranium oxide decays that it releases radon gas, and that I should leave the windows open all the time. What a mess. I'm not going to be a very popular guy with my landlord, to be sure. All of the apartments in this building are the same. -Knuke From owner-vortex-l Mon May 1 01:25:57 1995 Return-Path: Received: by mail.eskimo.com (5.65c/1.35) id AA10601; Mon, 1 May 1995 01:25:55 -0700 Received: from big.aa.net by mail.eskimo.com (5.65c/1.35) id AA10589; Mon, 1 May 1995 01:25:51 -0700 Received: (from knuke@localhost) by big.aa.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) id BAA21849; Mon, 1 May 1995 01:25:44 -0700 Date: Mon, 1 May 1995 01:25:44 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Huffman To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: A ZPE paper In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: Bill, I read the paper several times before I finally decided that in spite of the equations, what this guy is talking about is pure metaphysics. It also struck me as funny for the following reasons, also metaphysical in nature. About sixteen years ago, I had an incredible string of tragedies befall me in a span of about three months. Three people that I was very close to died, two people became crippled for life in accidents, and another was very badly injured. I had been reading a lot of philosophy at the time, and the existentialists were in vogue. I was having a great deal of difficulty coping with the grief of these tragedies, and in a phone conversation with my father, I found myself adopting the line of the existentialists. I was trying to convince him that nothing really mattered. He was worried about the despondent tone of my voice, and recommended that I read a book by Dr. Francis Schaeffer (no connection to Karl Schaefer). Schaeffer had seen a lot of post war ennui in Europe, and wrote about the fallacies of the existentialist philosophy. I went to Switzerland to study under Schaeffer, and met a Dr. Tom Little, who taught me how to program computers, and had a very good influence on my life in general. Fifteen years later, my father is urging me to study a Karl Schaefer. I'm corresponding with another Dr. Little (no connection to Tom), and now I'm trying to convince my father that Nothing really DOES matter. This time I'm really excited by the idea. This leads me to postulate that Nothing cannot be connected to Anything. Call it Huffman's First Law of Relational Absurdity. -Knuke BTW - If there are no objections from the rest of the group, I propose that we open up this listerv. From owner-vortex-l Wed May 3 15:19:05 1995 Return-Path: Received: by mail.eskimo.com (5.65c/1.35) id AA04472; Wed, 3 May 1995 15:19:02 -0700 Received: from big.aa.net by mail.eskimo.com (5.65c/1.35) id AA04400; Wed, 3 May 1995 15:18:46 -0700 Received: (from knuke@localhost) by big.aa.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) id PAA17933; Wed, 3 May 1995 15:18:47 -0700 Date: Wed, 3 May 1995 15:18:46 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Huffman To: Vortex-1 Subject: Direction, Focus, Purpose Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To All, I would like to keep the focus of this group directed toward the discussion of cavitational devices, Bernoulli principles, water hammer effects, shock wave devices, that sort of thing. I would like to see a group formed for "heretical devices", and I would enjoy being a part of that discussion. The reasons for narrowing the focus of this group are simple. First of all, I've been getting some very positive feedback about some of the more specific physical events that are happening in my device and the machine that Griggs is selling. This kind of feedback is coming from some very intelligent people with specific knowledge from their respective backgrounds and perspectives. This kind of knowledge is difficult to find, and as such is invaluable. These people have taken an interest in this particular kind of device because they can actually understand it, and see that it is a worthwhile endeavor. I don't want them to be put off or distracted by a lot of other stuff. This isn't to say that the other stuff might not be valid, it's only an issue of focus and concentration. The devil is in the details, and it's in the details of this phenomena that I need the most expert help to make the most of this technology. Right now there are four machines that I know of that use similar principles. The Schaefer machine, Griggs Gadget, Patapov's machine, and mine. I consider Griggs and myself to be bonehead engineers. Schaefer is dead. Patapov is Russian, which means any verbal traffic between him and me would be subject to the usual language translation problems. This combined with the inherent limitations of the listserv format of discussion, presents enough of an impediment to the USEFUL dialogue on one technology, without the added distraction. The second reason is that I am presently trying to convince ENECO that that 1) my patent is worth buying, 2) that this method of information sharing is good for product development (i.e. it saves industry tons of R&D money). It is my feeling that this device could be in commercial production for the purpose of heating homes by the end of this year. For this to happen, ENECO has to be able to approach manufacturers with evidence that 1) the technology is proven to deliver superior qualities than the existing art (they need a working demonstration model), 2) there is a large group of highly qualified people working to make that technology even better. This listerv would be the nexus of that group, and as such, should be limited to the discussion of this technology or how this technology could be combined with others to made more useful. The cold fusion industry (in my opinion, based upon what I have read as to it's pro's and con's) is still pretty far away from realizing a practical, mass produced product. There is still too much to learn about the basic interactions between the materials involved to commit to the production stage of development. The industry and ENECO in particular could take credit for and benefit finacially from the commercialization of what could be called a "spin off" technology of cold fusion research. Even if this technology is found to be explainable by "normal physics", it could be offered as an interim solution to our energy problems. The profits of the commercialization of this "easy to explain - cheap and quick to implement" technology could be used to further research and develop the more difficult to understand and implement cold fusion technologies. It's the credibility/feasibility issues that have always plagued the cold fusion community, and made manufacturers hesitant to commit R&D dollars. If the cold fusion community could show at least a workable "spin off" product for their efforts, then maybe the large corporations would be more willing to "ante up" for R&D funding. These corporations employ serious people who are responsible for large amounts of money. If they are invited to follow the discussion in this group, and they find a lot of "weird science", they will shake their collective heads in disgust, and decide the whole thing is a waste of time. That is just a fact of life. I would prefer that they look at the discussions, and see quality people tackling the nuts and bolts problems of this particular technology, and finding good solutions to those problems. Nothing comes easy or cheap, and those corporate types know that. If they see that there are serious, qualified people working on a technology for free, then the corporate types will feel like they are getting a good value for any funding that they add to the project. I propose that we leave the group open to all interested parties, but that we keep the discussion narrow in focus. If anyone wants to communicate with another about something else, they can do so in another listserv or through private E-mail. This would be a good place to meet other people of different backgrounds and experience etc. that might be interested other technologies, and we can give them pointers as to where they can find information on those topics, but let's keep this listserv focused. BTW Bill, I need to know the exact instructions for subscribing to the listserv. Also, on my machine, the name Vortex-1 looks like Vortex-l. Is it a one or an "l" as in Light? Also, I haven't heard anything from the rest of the group for a while. Got any feedback/opinions on these ideas/developments? -Knuke From owner-vortex-l Thu May 4 12:18:52 1995 Return-Path: Received: by mail.eskimo.com (5.65c/1.35) id AA15251; Thu, 4 May 1995 12:18:49 -0700 Received: from big.aa.net by mail.eskimo.com (5.65c/1.35) id AA15240; Thu, 4 May 1995 12:18:45 -0700 Received: from d117.aa.net (d117.aa.net [204.157.220.117]) by big.aa.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id MAA07944 for ; Thu, 4 May 1995 12:18:45 -0700 Date: Thu, 4 May 1995 12:18:45 -0700 X-Intended-For: Message-Id: <199505041918.MAA07944@big.aa.net> X-Sender: mwm@aa.net (Unverified) X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com From: mwm@aa.net (Michael Mandeville) Subject: Re: Direction, Focus, Purpose Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: > >> Rumor has it that ENECO has a Potopov device. Has anyone heard whether they >> have gotten it to work as advertised (i.e. 4 kW in...12 kW out)? > >The last I heard from Fred on that was they were bench testing a Russian >device that had no moving parts. This was a couple of months ago I think. >Jed mentioned in one of his posts that efforts were underway to get a >Potopov device to the States for analysis, but didn't say who was doing >the getting. Griggs actually called me, and told me that he had spoken >with Sapogin about the Potopov device. He said that it used a rotor that >was slightly occulted or out of round. > The "no moving parts" machine is probably something like an eductor or >a venturi tube. Bill and I talked about this over the phone, and I also >saw some discussion about a device by a Victor Schauberger that sounded >vaguely similar. I haven't seen either one so I can't really comment except >that I would like to know more. It seems that if the Potopov device is >actually an out of round rotor, that it would be getting some venturi >type action within a close fitting case. My machine would get a similar >reaction simply by offsetting the middle housing piece or by adding >irregularities to the middle housing piece. > Jed, if there is anything that you could tell us at all about the >Potopov device, we sure would be interested in reading it. > >-Knuke > From owner-vortex-l Wed May 17 13:19:31 1995 Return-Path: Received: by mail.eskimo.com (5.65c/1.35) id AA23448; Wed, 17 May 1995 13:19:28 -0700 Received: from big.aa.net by mail.eskimo.com (5.65c/1.35) id AA23424; Wed, 17 May 1995 13:19:21 -0700 Received: (from knuke@localhost) by big.aa.net (8.6.11/8.6.9) id NAA11563; Wed, 17 May 1995 13:19:23 -0700 Date: Wed, 17 May 1995 13:19:22 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Huffman To: Vortex-1 Subject: Oh Dear, Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com Status: RO X-Status: To All, I've been putting off writing this because I wanted to be sure, but the tests indicate the device is 96% efficient overall. I tested it over and over and over, varied all kinds of things, and it still was a rock solid 96%. Sorry if I got anybody worked up. The only thing that I can think of that would explain the 154% is stored heat. During that run I ran it at steam mode for 20 minutes before increasing the water flow. I thought I had given it enough time to dissipate the heat stored in the case etc., but obviously not. Now for the weird news. After this morning's test, I thought I would run my geiger counter over the device to check for any radioactivity. I tested the background of the room, and got readings ranging from 17-40 milliRem. The device checked out within this range as well. EXCEPT for the portion of the motor where the wires come out of the case. This area set off the alarm and was a steady 330-350 milliRem. I just finished doing this, and it's been a number of years since I've used this thing, so I need to read up on what this means, but does anybody have any clues as to what would set this off? I've never seen readings this high before, even when testing my smoke alarm. -Knuke