From billbeskimo.com Mon Aug 16 01:13:52 2004 -0700 Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 01:13:51 -0700 (PDT) From: William Beaty To: Peter Baum Subject: Re: private In-Reply-To: <004101c48189$6110a540$0101a8c0@pavilion> Message-ID: References: <001401c48150$347eaba0$0101a8c0@pavilion> <004101c48189$6110a540$0101a8c0@pavilion> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Status: R X-Status: I've been thinking... On Fri, 13 Aug 2004, Peter Baum wrote: > I think about the mess SAS is currently in But does anyone besides yourself perceive any mess? Does everyone think that SAS is mostly the way it should be (except that it doesn't attract enough amateurs?) I'm very curious about any responses to your doc about "Re-inventing," This is mostly because I've learned that groups resist change with extreme vigor, and letters like yours would be taken as a threat and a bid to wrest power from the leader. It's a complete waste of time to fight an uphill battle against such resistance, especially when compared with starting an independent project. The psychologist lightbulb joke is true: the lightbulb has to REALLY WANT to change. If not, then some amazingly extreme defenses will be mounted against any outside advice, as if advice were a hostile attack originating from dark motives. On the other hand, if SAS was the type of group which encourages many independent projects, then your ideas would not require that SAS change at all. You'd just start an independant project under the SAS name, just as LABRats does not require that SAS abandon amateur science. > Why couldn't something be structured so that everyone gets much more > than they would going it alone?" On the other hand, if the SAS is mostly a "Shawn Carlson Personal Project," then outsiders must very definitely go it alone, since more than one "Shawn Carlson" could never be tolerated. > [I resigned as a contributing editor of the SAS newsletter to protest > Mims being made the editor (not because of his religion, but because I > don't think he understands modern experimental science.... it's a long > story.) Funny coincidence! I just had a brief hostile exchange with Mims a couple of days ago. Totally unexpected. As a budding scientist, apparently Mr. Mims didn't go through the usual period of fascination with forbidden adult topics (explosions and high voltage.) > Part of me says "just let it die." Another part says, "well, maybe > there is a way out."] I've been there before. Many times! I begin to suspect that whenever I arrive at the stage where I say to myself "maybe there's a way out," then actually I passed the threshold for possible repairs a VERY long time ago. (((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))) William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website billbeskimo.com http://amasci.com EE/programmer/sci-exhibits amateur science, hobby projects, sci fair Seattle, WA 206-789-0775 unusual phenomena, tesla coils, weird sci From billbeskimo.com Mon Aug 16 02:38:49 2004 -0700 Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 02:38:48 -0700 (PDT) From: William Beaty To: Peter Baum Subject: Re: fringe science may not be a problem; k-12, ThoughtForms In-Reply-To: <000b01c4823d$e5616dc0$0101a8c0@pavilion> Message-ID: References: <001401c48150$347eaba0$0101a8c0@pavilion> <000b01c48180$be636b00$0101a8c0@pavilion> <000b01c4823d$e5616dc0$0101a8c0@pavilion> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Status: R X-Status: On Sat, 14 Aug 2004, Peter Baum wrote: > What I really want is to transport your philosophy over to SAS, members, and > especially administration. From my impressions of SAS, this would be totally impossible. In the past I usually assumed that, if I gave advice and just showed people the best path to take, they would leap to make changes. After all, they obviously knew that they were doing things wrong, and the information I provided would be just what they've always been waiting for. But instead, I invariably received a hostile reception, and my suggestions are either seen as a threat, or even perceived as disgusting. After several of these situations I conclude that, if someone was open to certain ideas, that person would already be thinking them. And if someone is not thinking them, it's NOT because they never encountered them. Instead it's because they DID encounter them long ago, and carefully built a thick wall to prevent those ideas from getting in. My giving advice was the same as making a hole in their defenses. They leap to make repairs and to stop my actions. > I'm with you regarding education, but I wonder what happens after 6th grade? I think there's lots of things to do above 6th grade. It's just that as a single individual facing a huge task, I want to know where I can do some real good. Also, many pursuits are fascinating, and therefore I make an effort to avoid much of the temptation. I want to keep the fascinating stuff as a small sideline hobby, and then go after the weak points in society where individual action has large benefit. For example, futzing with cellular automata programs, or with high-vacuum electrospray physics is cool, and it would be useful for undergrad physics education, but to have a large positive impact on society, it would be far better if I instead try changing the public perception of science. And the place to do this is below 6th grade when it's not "too late." Now, if thousands of people were trying to get K-6 students to see "amateur science" in the same way they see Art Class or Gym... then my efforts at the K-6 grades would be just more of the same; they would be a drop in the bucket. ANd in that case, my individual efforts in K-12 or K-adult would have far greater impact. > Do you have any thoughts about Shawn's LabRats? Heh. LABRats appears to be very similar to the school system that made Shawn a scientist. Unfortunately that system kills creativity, turns the whole population against science, and causes "straight-A student syndrome." That system is based on "triage," where we test the unwashed masses through repeated passes, and extract the 0.001% who are worthy. And then we only give the REAL training to that tiny minority of "winners." The rest are "losers" fit only for working at McDonalds. Or perhaps they can pursue electronics or biochem. :) As the top-level physics teachers always say, a student never encounters any real physics until grad school, and everything before grad school is just there to make physics seem difficult, so weak students will quit. When I see LABRats with its testing barriers preventing unworthy students from reaching the higher levels, I think of my little brother. When I was around 11 years old, I tried to interest my little brother in hobbyist electronics. I showed him some stuff. Then I paused... and gave him some test questions. He got them wrong. He dropped electronics as a hobby instantly. Never touched it again. Decades later I discovered that my experience with my brother was a perfect demonstration of the purpose of schools and the immense power of testing. Education is a secondary issue in school. A far larger purpose is "triage:" to reject the majority by erecting barriers, to install a series of filters which only an extremely gung-ho competitive male type would ever get past. And that type of person has no love of the subject. They're after accolades, pursuing the spotlight, winning prizes, etc. That's the straight-A student syndrome. Remove the possibility of getting good grades or winning the science fair, and the straight-A students drop out of science immediately. I strongly suspect that LABRats will do exactly the same thing that public school already does. It will convince everyone that science is hard, that science is no fun. Yet a tiny minority will be able to resist this message, just as they already resist it during public school. The process produces scientists by eliminating the unworthy masses, not by turning the unworthy masses into scientists. What if in grade-school art class or in gym we had to pass numerous fairly difficult quizzes with book-learning before we were ever allowed to touch watercolors or a basketball? I'm convinced that it would be fairly easy to wipe out all sports-enthusiasm from the face of the earth. Just require basketball textbooks and basketball tests. Perhaps let students touch a deflated basketball as it is handed around in class. Force them to watch classroom basketball videos and play "educational games" which are just quizzes for aiding memorization of Important Basketball Facts that would appear on the next test. They would never be shown how to play a game of baskeptball. It's far too complicated, and only real athletes ever do such things. Their teachers certainly never played a real basketball game, nor have any idea how its done. In advanced basketball class they were only allowed to dribble or to throw the ball while trying to exactly mimic a Famous Historical Basketball Player. :) See what I'm getting at? We'd end up with millions of people who regard basketball with unspoken fear and hatred, and for most of them the sight of a bouncing orange sphere would call up feelings of inferiority and deep memories of fellow students laughing about their poor grades. Where today many adults will instantly flee an uncomfortable situation while bleating out "I was never good at math" or "I was never good at science," instead they would automatically turn off the TV, saying "I was never good at that basketball stuff," and they would expend quite a bit of effort to avoid situations which might expose their embarassingly terrible performance in Basketball class all those decades ago. I believe that the reverse is possible: let the public be as fascinated by science as they are by televised sports. But the very first thing that has to happen is... the "triage" system would have to be put under a spotlight and seen for what it is, and then utterly banned with extreme prejudice. No textbooks and very definitely no testing allowed. Let the "science textbooks" required for science class become as ridiculous a notion as "basketball textbooks" required for Gym class, or as ridiculous as insisting on years of "watercolor textbooks" before kids in grade school are allowed to touch paintbrush to paper. > Thinking more about the "fringe science" issue. If SAS turns into > something more like what I described in my SEAS proposal, then I suspect > this would not be a problem. My listserver FREENRG-L bans discussion of everything except oddball experiments. It worked fine. But years ago I became overloaded and was no longer able to ride herd on the group. Unless a forum has a tiny user base, I suspect that maintaining a forum really requires more than just volunteer labor. On the other hand, a person of the "Martin Gardnerist" religion would tolerate experiments on psychic phenomena for example, only if the experiments show that psychic phenomena is bogus. If the experiments turned up something genuine, then it means that the experimenter made mistakes. If the mistakes cannot be found and fixed, then the experimenter is hopelessly flawed. If the supervisor becomes convinced that the experiment is showing a real effect, then that supervisior must be silenced "for the good of science." Just such a situation occured at Princeton in the Electrical Engineering department, happening to the Dean of the department Robert Jahn. Everything was fine until his students turned up some genuine psychic phenomena. Dr. Jahn found that their results stood up solidly, and he backed up the students with his own authority. Then all hell broke loose as the "Martin Gardner-ists" in the university tried to have him thrown out of his own department. After all, psychic phenomena do not exist (this is a given!), and we cannot have the Dean of the EE department giving the school a bad name, so steps must be taken to rectify the situation. > Of course, you may not be interested in the SEAS direction and/or Shawn may And yes, I agree that what this country needs is an experimentalist journal. We already have the Journal of Scientific Exploration, but rather than allowing scientists to publish papers outside of their fields, the JSE allows scientists to publish papers entirely outside of normal science itself! Have you ever wanted to do research on Yeti, UFO sightings, or near-death experiences? Well, the JSE is a peer-review publication accepting such papers. (And Robert Jahn of Princeton is on their board.) Now that I mention it, the JSE organization is quite interested in amateur science, in having students investigate all the fascinating "taboo" topics. They even have a small amount of funding for student projects. > about artificial intelligence and a few other topics, maybe 1/4 done. If > you are interested in becoming a reader for this project, I would value your > feedback. Sure, I'd love to take a look! (((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))) William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website billbeskimo.com http://amasci.com EE/programmer/sci-exhibits amateur science, hobby projects, sci fair Seattle, WA 206-789-0775 unusual phenomena, tesla coils, weird sci From billbeskimo.com Mon Aug 16 08:15:37 2004 -0700 Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 08:15:37 -0700 (PDT) From: William Beaty To: Peter Baum Subject: What would CL Stong do? In-Reply-To: <000b01c4823d$e5616dc0$0101a8c0@pavilion> Message-ID: References: <001401c48150$347eaba0$0101a8c0@pavilion> <000b01c48180$be636b00$0101a8c0@pavilion> <000b01c4823d$e5616dc0$0101a8c0@pavilion> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Status: R X-Status: I just realized... your proposal could transform SAS into something wonderful, and we should carry it MUCH MUCH further. It's not enough to merge with Science Hobbyist and to start an experimenter's journal. The SAS needs to attract ALL hobbyists like me and stop treating us as interfering outsiders: merge with Amasci and Altair and Powerlabs and all the many other people running similar groups. And rather than treating separate projects as competitors, e.g. ousting Forrest Mims and starting an experimenters' journal instead... why not tolerate both? (Well, not just tolerate. Wildly encourage!) And what about "A Science Club In Every School," and "Appeal to Nerds/ Misfits," and "Turn parents into science teachers?" Rather than these being in competition with LABRats, why not do ALL of them? In other words, the SAS needs to get out of the business of running projects and get into the business of project-staring. Stop acting like an author and start acting like a magazine. Right now the SAS has a built-in "competitor's mindset" which cries out to be replaced by the mindset of a "cooperator." Don't be an amateur scientist, be an amateur NSF. Don't be an amoeba who fights the other amoebas, instead become a higher animal which gives the community of cells some immense power. Oh. That's what you already said. :) It's not that we need to infect the SAS staff with the Bill Beaty philosophy of amateur science. Instead we need to break SAS loose from having any philosophy at all. Make it tolerant of multiple philosophies. Make it a petri dish which supports any bacterial colony that lands on it. Imagine what C.L. Stong would have done if the WWW arose in 1960. It certainly wouldn't resemble the present SAS. So let's do what he would have done. AHA! As soon as I say these things, I see that SAS would never approve... and that doesn't matter. The whole nature of cooperators is to engulf others and encorporate them into the team. If we go forward without SAS approval, then the present SAS will be swallowed up by the higher organism and become a major element in the "higher animal:" continuing as before, yet at the same time becoming something far greater. (((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))) William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website billbeskimo.com http://amasci.com EE/programmer/sci-exhibits amateur science, hobby projects, sci fair Seattle, WA 206-789-0775 unusual phenomena, tesla coils, weird sci From thoughtforms@cape.com Mon Aug 16 08:45:04 2004 Received: from mx4.cape.com (mx4.cape.com [204.107.252.94]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i7GFj2Eu006583 for ; Mon, 16 Aug 2004 08:45:03 -0700 Received: from pavilion (tsd-1254.cape.com [140.186.54.254]) by mx4.cape.com (8.12.10/8.12.3) with SMTP id i7GFiwCY016448 for ; Mon, 16 Aug 2004 11:44:58 -0400 Message-ID: <001101c483a7$f9dffe40$0101a8c0@pavilion> Reply-To: "Peter Baum" From: "Peter Baum" To: "William Beaty" References: <001401c48150$347eaba0$0101a8c0@pavilion> <000b01c48180$be636b00$0101a8c0@pavilion> <000b01c4823d$e5616dc0$0101a8c0@pavilion> Subject: Re: What would CL Stong do? Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 11:44:52 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 X-Virus-Scanned: Cape.Com VirusScan, no known virus found Status: R X-Status: I thought you'd end up blowing me a way with a wonderful idea.... Wow!... Let me think about this a bit... I'll get back to you. I'm a little pressed for time at the moment.... p ----- Original Message ----- From: "William Beaty" To: "Peter Baum" Sent: Monday, August 16, 2004 11:15 AM Subject: What would CL Stong do? > > I just realized... your proposal could transform SAS into something > wonderful, and we should carry it MUCH MUCH further. > > It's not enough to merge with Science Hobbyist and to start an > experimenter's journal. The SAS needs to attract ALL hobbyists like me > and stop treating us as interfering outsiders: merge with Amasci and > Altair and Powerlabs and all the many other people running similar groups. > > And rather than treating separate projects as competitors, e.g. ousting > Forrest Mims and starting an experimenters' journal instead... why not > tolerate both? (Well, not just tolerate. Wildly encourage!) > > And what about "A Science Club In Every School," and "Appeal to Nerds/ > Misfits," and "Turn parents into science teachers?" Rather than these > being in competition with LABRats, why not do ALL of them? In other > words, the SAS needs to get out of the business of running projects and > get into the business of project-staring. Stop acting like an author and > start acting like a magazine. > > Right now the SAS has a built-in "competitor's mindset" which cries out to > be replaced by the mindset of a "cooperator." Don't be an amateur > scientist, be an amateur NSF. Don't be an amoeba who fights the other > amoebas, instead become a higher animal which gives the community of cells > some immense power. > > Oh. That's what you already said. :) > > It's not that we need to infect the SAS staff with the Bill Beaty > philosophy of amateur science. Instead we need to break SAS loose from > having any philosophy at all. Make it tolerant of multiple philosophies. > Make it a petri dish which supports any bacterial colony that lands on it. > > Imagine what C.L. Stong would have done if the WWW arose in 1960. It > certainly wouldn't resemble the present SAS. So let's do what he would > have done. > > AHA! As soon as I say these things, I see that SAS would never approve... > and that doesn't matter. The whole nature of cooperators is to engulf > others and encorporate them into the team. If we go forward without SAS > approval, then the present SAS will be swallowed up by the higher organism > and become a major element in the "higher animal:" continuing as before, > yet at the same time becoming something far greater. > > > > (((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))) > William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website > billbeskimo.com http://amasci.com > EE/programmer/sci-exhibits amateur science, hobby projects, sci fair > Seattle, WA 206-789-0775 unusual phenomena, tesla coils, weird sci > From thoughtforms@cape.com Mon Aug 16 09:45:57 2004 Received: from mx4.cape.com (mx4.cape.com [204.107.252.94]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i7GGjssp018267 for ; Mon, 16 Aug 2004 09:45:56 -0700 Received: from pavilion (tsd-1254.cape.com [140.186.54.254]) by mx4.cape.com (8.12.10/8.12.3) with SMTP id i7GGjpCY002626 for ; Mon, 16 Aug 2004 12:45:52 -0400 Message-ID: <005801c483b0$7b84ccc0$0101a8c0@pavilion> Reply-To: "Peter Baum" From: "Peter Baum" To: "William Beaty" References: <001401c48150$347eaba0$0101a8c0@pavilion> <000b01c48180$be636b00$0101a8c0@pavilion> <000b01c4823d$e5616dc0$0101a8c0@pavilion> Subject: Re: What would CL Stong do? Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 12:45:46 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 X-Virus-Scanned: Cape.Com VirusScan, no known virus found Status: R X-Status: I think you are on to something but I don't quite understand. An organism requires, or maybe I should say "is" in a sense some kind of structure. It isn't a complete free-for-all with unlimited growth and unlimited functioning of various parts. There is specialization, limits, and organized functions that work cooperatively. Start sketching how this would work with a broad umbrella organization. Tell me how it would be structured so that potential members and potential financial contributors on the outside would not just see a massive amount of disorganized material. p ----- Original Message ----- From: "William Beaty" To: "Peter Baum" Sent: Monday, August 16, 2004 11:15 AM Subject: What would CL Stong do? > > I just realized... your proposal could transform SAS into something > wonderful, and we should carry it MUCH MUCH further. > > It's not enough to merge with Science Hobbyist and to start an > experimenter's journal. The SAS needs to attract ALL hobbyists like me > and stop treating us as interfering outsiders: merge with Amasci and > Altair and Powerlabs and all the many other people running similar groups. > > And rather than treating separate projects as competitors, e.g. ousting > Forrest Mims and starting an experimenters' journal instead... why not > tolerate both? (Well, not just tolerate. Wildly encourage!) > > And what about "A Science Club In Every School," and "Appeal to Nerds/ > Misfits," and "Turn parents into science teachers?" Rather than these > being in competition with LABRats, why not do ALL of them? In other > words, the SAS needs to get out of the business of running projects and > get into the business of project-staring. Stop acting like an author and > start acting like a magazine. > > Right now the SAS has a built-in "competitor's mindset" which cries out to > be replaced by the mindset of a "cooperator." Don't be an amateur > scientist, be an amateur NSF. Don't be an amoeba who fights the other > amoebas, instead become a higher animal which gives the community of cells > some immense power. > > Oh. That's what you already said. :) > > It's not that we need to infect the SAS staff with the Bill Beaty > philosophy of amateur science. Instead we need to break SAS loose from > having any philosophy at all. Make it tolerant of multiple philosophies. > Make it a petri dish which supports any bacterial colony that lands on it. > > Imagine what C.L. Stong would have done if the WWW arose in 1960. It > certainly wouldn't resemble the present SAS. So let's do what he would > have done. > > AHA! As soon as I say these things, I see that SAS would never approve... > and that doesn't matter. The whole nature of cooperators is to engulf > others and encorporate them into the team. If we go forward without SAS > approval, then the present SAS will be swallowed up by the higher organism > and become a major element in the "higher animal:" continuing as before, > yet at the same time becoming something far greater. > > > > (((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) ))))))))))))))))))) > William J. Beaty SCIENCE HOBBYIST website > billbeskimo.com http://amasci.com > EE/programmer/sci-exhibits amateur science, hobby projects, sci fair > Seattle, WA 206-789-0775 unusual phenomena, tesla coils, weird sci > From thoughtforms@cape.com Mon Aug 16 10:31:01 2004 Received: from mx4.cape.com (mx4.cape.com [204.107.252.94]) by ultra5.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i7GHUxEu009636 for ; Mon, 16 Aug 2004 10:31:00 -0700 Received: from pavilion (tsd-1254.cape.com [140.186.54.254]) by mx4.cape.com (8.12.10/8.12.3) with SMTP id i7GHUtCY030212 for ; Mon, 16 Aug 2004 13:30:56 -0400 Message-ID: <006d01c483b6$c7269ea0$0101a8c0@pavilion> Reply-To: "Peter Baum" From: "Peter Baum" To: "William Beaty" References: <001401c48150$347eaba0$0101a8c0@pavilion> <004101c48189$6110a540$0101a8c0@pavilion> Subject: Re: private Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 13:30:50 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 X-Virus-Scanned: Cape.Com VirusScan, no known virus found Status: R X-Status: > But does anyone besides yourself perceive any mess? Does everyone think > that SAS is mostly the way it should be (except that it doesn't attract > enough amateurs?) I know there are some but I have no idea how many. I've mentioned this to a few of the more intelligent voices on the forum, such as Kevin Kilty and Jim Hannon. We agree but haven't figured out what to do about it. Shawn has gathered around him mostly nontechnical people so he is somewhat isolated from this kind of criticism. I'm always blast him (in a friendly way) when I can... he is kind of used to it by now. He takes criticism well and is generally open in that way (which is one reason I like him) although he doesn't always seek it out and I don't think I have been much of an influence on him. From what I can tell, Shawn recognizes that almost no one is doing experiments and I'm certain that this bothers him. He just doesn't know what to do about it. I don't really know either. > > I'm very curious about any responses to your doc about "Re-inventing," I will definitely let you know. At this stage, all I know is that there is going to be some kind of committee looking at proposals. I don't even know who would be on such a committee... that composition would be critical so I'm very currious what it will look like.) I only heard about this accidently when talking with Denise Greaves about restoring images on the forum. I'm curious whether I would have been told by Shawn about this otherwise. There may be some kind of solicitation to members or TCS readers; it hasn't happened yet as far as I know. I'm curious if Shawn has contacted you about this possible cooperative venture that I suggested to him. Please keep me informed if possible. > > This is mostly because I've learned that groups resist change with extreme > vigor, and letters like yours would be taken as a threat and a bid to > wrest power from the leader. It's a complete waste of time to fight an > uphill battle against such resistance, especially when compared with > starting an independent project. The psychologist lightbulb joke is true: > the lightbulb has to REALLY WANT to change. If not, then some amazingly > extreme defenses will be mounted against any outside advice, as if advice > were a hostile attack originating from dark motives. > > On the other hand, if SAS was the type of group which encourages many > independent projects, then your ideas would not require that SAS change at > all. You'd just start an independant project under the SAS name, just as > LABRats does not require that SAS abandon amateur science. There are some complications here. The SAS name isn't worth much now. The question is what SAS would offer SEAS. Financial support? Forum support? Leadership support to get things going? A website link? What was the value of SAS? To me, the real value was the Forum. At its best, it gathered together a wonderful community of people with very broad knowledge and experience, and when they tackled a problem, they collectively often came up with some very neat things. In contrast, most of your site is the work of one incredibly talented and hardworking person and what you have produced is nearly a miracle. Still, I think a forum with a reasonable number of contributors could produce even better material in a relatively short period of time (don't forget, the SAS Forum was small, with only about 7,000 registered users... well maybe 6,000 if you took out the people who registered under multiple usernames, and none of the site was indexed by any of the search engines.). One person can only know and do so much. I actually had to argue with Ed Thelen who wanted an "ask the scientist" section. Besides having a hard time finding anyone competent and willing to spend the time, I told him that collectively the forum was much better than any individual could be answering people's questions. Shawn writes quite well and I very much respect his talent. However, even when he was paid (not much by the way) for the Amateur Scientist column I felt let down. Stong was much better and again, it was because he would get other people to contribute and he just helped grease things a bit. Yah... one of my heroes because of that. > > > Why couldn't something be structured so that everyone gets much more > > than they would going it alone?" > > On the other hand, if the SAS is mostly a "Shawn Carlson Personal > Project," then outsiders must very definitely go it alone, since more than > one "Shawn Carlson" could never be tolerated. Yes, I'm afraid this is likely a problem. I'm currently trying to gently broach that topic. > > > > [I resigned as a contributing editor of the SAS newsletter to protest > > Mims being made the editor (not because of his religion, but because I > > don't think he understands modern experimental science.... it's a long > > story.) > > Funny coincidence! I just had a brief hostile exchange with Mims a couple > of days ago. Totally unexpected. As a budding scientist, apparently Mr. > Mims didn't go through the usual period of fascination with forbidden > adult topics (explosions and high voltage.) Don't get me started about Mims and Brooks! I had a long running battle with them on the Haze forum. I was always respectful but they got so much detailed criticism of their project from me that they eventually blocked me from making any comments all. Not something one would expect from a scientist! I think they may have eventually took the forum down completely. But they didn't really learn anything. Mims just turned the sun photometer into a commercial venture and moved over to Globe. (I gotta stop...) > > > > Part of me says "just let it die." Another part says, "well, maybe > > there is a way out."] > > I've been there before. Many times! I begin to suspect that whenever I > arrive at the stage where I say to myself "maybe there's a way out," > then actually I passed the threshold for possible repairs a VERY long > time ago. Yes, Well put... probaby right. Regards, p From thoughtforms@cape.com Mon Aug 16 11:04:02 2004 Received: from mx4.cape.com (mx4.cape.com [204.107.252.94]) by ultra6.eskimo.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i7GI3xsp011273 for ; Mon, 16 Aug 2004 11:04:01 -0700 Received: from pavilion (tsd-1254.cape.com [140.186.54.254]) by mx4.cape.com (8.12.10/8.12.3) with SMTP id i7GI3scT008266 for ; Mon, 16 Aug 2004 14:03:54 -0400 Message-ID: <007b01c483bb$62831fa0$0101a8c0@pavilion> Reply-To: "Peter Baum" From: "Peter Baum" To: "William Beaty" References: <001401c48150$347eaba0$0101a8c0@pavilion> <000b01c48180$be636b00$0101a8c0@pavilion> <000b01c4823d$e5616dc0$0101a8c0@pavilion> Subject: Re: fringe science may not be a problem; k-12, ThoughtForms Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 14:03:49 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 X-Virus-Scanned: Cape.Com VirusScan, no known virus found Status: R X-Status: See below: ----- Original Message ----- From: "William Beaty" To: "Peter Baum" Sent: Monday, August 16, 2004 5:38 AM Subject: Re: fringe science may not be a problem; k-12, ThoughtForms > On Sat, 14 Aug 2004, Peter Baum wrote: > > > What I really want is to transport your philosophy over to SAS, members, and > > especially administration. > > >From my impressions of SAS, this would be totally impossible. > > In the past I usually assumed that, if I gave advice and just showed > people the best path to take, they would leap to make changes. After all, > they obviously knew that they were doing things wrong, and the information > I provided would be just what they've always been waiting for. But > instead, I invariably received a hostile reception, and my suggestions are > either seen as a threat, or even perceived as disgusting. > > After several of these situations I conclude that, if someone was open to > certain ideas, that person would already be thinking them. And if someone > is not thinking them, it's NOT because they never encountered them. > Instead it's because they DID encounter them long ago, and carefully built > a thick wall to prevent those ideas from getting in. My giving advice > was the same as making a hole in their defenses. They leap to make > repairs and to stop my actions. You just explained the pain I've experienced so many times over the years! > > > > I'm with you regarding education, but I wonder what happens after 6th grade? > > I think there's lots of things to do above 6th grade. It's just that as a > single individual facing a huge task, I want to know where I can do some > real good. Also, many pursuits are fascinating, and therefore I make an > effort to avoid much of the temptation. I want to keep the fascinating > stuff as a small sideline hobby, and then go after the weak points in > society where individual action has large benefit. For example, futzing > with cellular automata programs, or with high-vacuum electrospray physics > is cool, and it would be useful for undergrad physics education, but to > have a large positive impact on society, it would be far better if I > instead try changing the public perception of science. And the place to > do this is below 6th grade when it's not "too late." This makes complete sense to me. The question is, do you work in a tiny arenna as a kind of demonstration project, or try to form an organization to mass produce this approach? Maybe the first first and then get support for the second? > Do you have any thoughts about Shawn's LabRats? > > > Heh. > > LABRats appears to be very similar to the school system that made Shawn a > scientist. Unfortunately that system kills creativity, turns the whole > population against science, and causes "straight-A student syndrome." > That system is based on "triage," where we test the unwashed masses > through repeated passes, and extract the 0.001% who are worthy. And then > we only give the REAL training to that tiny minority of "winners." The > rest are "losers" fit only for working at McDonalds. Or perhaps they can > pursue electronics or biochem. > > :) I agree and said as much (but less eloquantly and less forcefully) when Shawn sent me an early draft of this white paper. > > As the top-level physics teachers always say, a student never encounters > any real physics until grad school, and everything before grad school is > just there to make physics seem difficult, so weak students will quit. > When I see LABRats with its testing barriers preventing unworthy students > from reaching the higher levels, I think of my little brother. > > When I was around 11 years old, I tried to interest my little brother in > hobbyist electronics. I showed him some stuff. Then I paused... and gave > him some test questions. He got them wrong. He dropped electronics as a > hobby instantly. Never touched it again. > > Decades later I discovered that my experience with my brother was a > perfect demonstration of the purpose of schools and the immense power of > testing. Education is a secondary issue in school. A far larger purpose > is "triage:" to reject the majority by erecting barriers, to install a > series of filters which only an extremely gung-ho competitive male type > would ever get past. And that type of person has no love of the subject. > They're after accolades, pursuing the spotlight, winning prizes, etc. > That's the straight-A student syndrome. Remove the possibility of getting > good grades or winning the science fair, and the straight-A students drop > out of science immediately. > > I strongly suspect that LABRats will do exactly the same thing that public > school already does. It will convince everyone that science is hard, that > science is no fun. Yet a tiny minority will be able to resist this > message, just as they already resist it during public school. The process > produces scientists by eliminating the unworthy masses, not by turning the > unworthy masses into scientists. > > What if in grade-school art class or in gym we had to pass numerous fairly > difficult quizzes with book-learning before we were ever allowed to touch > watercolors or a basketball? > > I'm convinced that it would be fairly easy to wipe out all > sports-enthusiasm from the face of the earth. Just require basketball > textbooks and basketball tests. Perhaps let students touch a deflated > basketball as it is handed around in class. Force them to watch classroom > basketball videos and play "educational games" which are just quizzes for > aiding memorization of Important Basketball Facts that would appear on the > next test. They would never be shown how to play a game of baskeptball. > It's far too complicated, and only real athletes ever do such things. > Their teachers certainly never played a real basketball game, nor have any > idea how its done. In advanced basketball class they were only allowed to > dribble or to throw the ball while trying to exactly mimic a Famous > Historical Basketball Player. > > :) The above is fantastic! I think you should send it to Shawn. Again, my thought is... tell the guy what our understanding and vision is and then after the likely rejection, we can perhaps gather togethers those with a similar orientation and hopefully do something about it. I'd also like to see all the suggestions people make regarding this re-inventing. Fascinating. > > See what I'm getting at? We'd end up with millions of people who regard > basketball with unspoken fear and hatred, and for most of them the sight > of a bouncing orange sphere would call up feelings of inferiority and deep > memories of fellow students laughing about their poor grades. Where today > many adults will instantly flee an uncomfortable situation while bleating > out "I was never good at math" or "I was never good at science," instead > they would automatically turn off the TV, saying "I was never good at that > basketball stuff," and they would expend quite a bit of effort to avoid > situations which might expose their embarassingly terrible performance in > Basketball class all those decades ago. > > > > I believe that the reverse is possible: let the public be as fascinated by > science as they are by televised sports. But the very first thing that > has to happen is... the "triage" system would have to be put under a > spotlight and seen for what it is, and then utterly banned with extreme > prejudice. No textbooks and very definitely no testing allowed. Let the > "science textbooks" required for science class become as ridiculous a > notion as "basketball textbooks" required for Gym class, or as ridiculous > as insisting on years of "watercolor textbooks" before kids in grade > school are allowed to touch paintbrush to paper. I agree 99%. My only reservation is that sports also have an appeal because it feeds fantasy with respect to a cultural heirarchy. I don't know how one would do something like this with science and suspect you would not want to. All those guys looking at the ball game with a beer in one hand are pretending to be the players and pretending to be high status males. To me, science is about exploring the real world, not fantasy, male ego, et cetera. (By the way, I do love sports, but mostly as a participant rather than a watcher. I also understand and am attracted to the appeal of fantasy.... it is just that I think one should self limit how much of this one does.) > > Thinking more about the "fringe science" issue. If SAS turns into > > something more like what I described in my SEAS proposal, then I suspect > > this would not be a problem. > > My listserver FREENRG-L bans discussion of everything except oddball > experiments. It worked fine. But years ago I became overloaded and was > no longer able to ride herd on the group. Unless a forum has a tiny user > base, I suspect that maintaining a forum really requires more than just > volunteer labor. Yes, I agree. > > On the other hand, a person of the "Martin Gardnerist" religion would > tolerate experiments on psychic phenomena for example, only if the > experiments show that psychic phenomena is bogus. If the experiments > turned up something genuine, then it means that the experimenter made > mistakes. If the mistakes cannot be found and fixed, then the > experimenter is hopelessly flawed. If the supervisor becomes convinced > that the experiment is showing a real effect, then that supervisior must > be silenced "for the good of science." > > Just such a situation occured at Princeton in the Electrical Engineering > department, happening to the Dean of the department Robert Jahn. > Everything was fine until his students turned up some genuine psychic > phenomena. Dr. Jahn found that their results stood up solidly, and he > backed up the students with his own authority. Then all hell broke loose > as the "Martin Gardner-ists" in the university tried to have him thrown > out of his own department. After all, psychic phenomena do not exist > (this is a given!), and we cannot have the Dean of the EE department > giving the school a bad name, so steps must be taken to rectify the > situation. So then what happened? Just for completeness, my view is that almost all of the fringe stuff is nutty at best and preditory at worst. Still, I think you do the experiments the best you can and you publish what you did and let it go at that. The process is supposed to work by letting others try to reproduce and perhaps point out flaws and do more experiments. That's it. This process is suppose to take all this other emotional, irrational bigotry out of the system. You then accept whatever is left. > > > > Of course, you may not be interested in the SEAS direction and/or Shawn may > > And yes, I agree that what this country needs is an experimentalist > journal. We already have the Journal of Scientific Exploration, but > rather than allowing scientists to publish papers outside of their fields, > the JSE allows scientists to publish papers entirely outside of normal > science itself! Have you ever wanted to do research on Yeti, UFO > sightings, or near-death experiences? Well, the JSE is a peer-review > publication accepting such papers. (And Robert Jahn of Princeton is on > their board.) Now that I mention it, the JSE organization is quite > interested in amateur science, in having students investigate all the > fascinating "taboo" topics. They even have a small amount of funding for > student projects. That's cool. I assume that was a retorical question. I never really had that urge. > > > > about artificial intelligence and a few other topics, maybe 1/4 done. If > > you are interested in becoming a reader for this project, I would value your > > feedback. > > Sure, I'd love to take a look! Fantastic. I'll send something your way. Regards, P.S. What is that thing at the bottom of your e-mail?: (((((((((((((((((( ( ( ( ( (O) ) ) ) ) )))))))))))))))))))